Monday Mini Classics: Grooming 101

What is grooming and how do you recognize it? Anney and Samantha break it down in this classic.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I welcome to Stuff
I Never Told You, a production of I Heartradio and
for today's classic. Unfortunately, we thought we should bring back
our episode we did on grooming and what that looks

(00:25):
like and how it can manifest because a lot of
stuff is happening in the news right now and there's
a lot of conversation about it, and we are talking
about doing We're going to come back and do a
whole episode in March probably, but soon soon, but in
the meantime, we did want to bring back this classic

(00:46):
to help get you prepared.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
We need to do a review.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
We need to do a review.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
So yes, please enjoy this classic episode.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to Stuff I
Never Told You. Today we are.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Once again joined by my good friend Samantha. Hello, Samantha, Hello,
thank you. Yep you are and you will be back
for this the series that we're doing also.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Forever sitting in the corner staring at everyone.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yes, doing the grudge.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
This is the second in our series examining trauma and
sexual assault in the era of Me Too. And you
are a great person to bring in for this because
you do you have a history and social work.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
That is my career. Thus far, thus far, thus far.

Speaker 4 (01:54):
We put that as a dot dot dot.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
I'm Drincken there. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
I love including those because it just adds this layer
of mystery and intrigues.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
What is she going to do next?

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Dot dot?

Speaker 4 (02:07):
I'm going to stay at home and just eat and
watch TV. Can someone pay me to do that?

Speaker 3 (02:13):
I think there is Yeah, I think you can get
paid for that.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
I'm sure it's very competitive. Oh, we're going to research
this in a bit.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Oh yeah, yeah, that's immediately.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Thing we're doing immediately have goals, so quick trigger warning.
We are talking about grooming and what a what exactly
that entails, including specific methods and purposes, and just to
kind of prep everyone, to prime everyone. The general definition

(02:42):
of grooming is the act of preparing or training someone
for particular purpose or activity, and oftentimes it involves someone
of power, mentoring, training, or intimidating another individual. But in
this conversation, we're mostly going to be talking about it
in terms of abuse and specifically trigger warnings. We're going

(03:03):
to be talking about you sexual assault, molestation and grooming,
sexual grooming, sexual exportation, human trafficking, bestiality, pedophilia. Most of
these were not going to go in depth on, but
if it's something that is triggering are difficult for you,
please put your own health and well being first. And

(03:24):
this is something that several of you have written in
about and that's been in the news quite a lot
lately because as we record this, the R Kelly thing,
the documentary is really big in the news cycle and
grooming is a part of that conversation.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Hashtag mute r Kelly.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
Hashtag mute r Kelly.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
If we look at this whole picture of abuse or
of choosing or preparing a victim, grooming is often the
first step or a quick second step.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
I suppose a study that.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Came out recently found most people couldn't identify signs of grooming.
So hopefully this episode that we're having can make us
all a little more vigilant and aware. I know I
learned a lot from researching this one, you.

Speaker 4 (04:15):
Know, any I was going to add to that that
it is often times hard to see in a victim,
which is why a lot of the sites you'll see
and a lot of the statistics is to say to
focus on the perpetrator, you'll see their actions including the
online perpetrators. They are specifics to that which we won't
necessarily go into, but that is something to think on too.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, So let's start, as I like to do, with
the definition what is grooming? Author and counselor Eric Marlow
Garrison defines it like this, Grooming is the slow, methodical,
and intentional process of manipulating a person to a point
where they can be victimized. After the perpetrators find their targets,

(04:59):
they gained trust, and move in from there. The US
Department of Justice Office of Sex Offenders Sentencing defines it
as grooming is a method used by offenders that involves
building trust with a child and the adults around a
child in an effort to gain access to and time
alone with him or her. In extreme cases, offenders may

(05:20):
use threats and physical force to sexually assault or abuse
a child. More common, though, are subtle approaches designed to
build relationships with families. The offender may assume a caring role,
befriend the child, or even exploit their position of trust
and authority to groom the child and or the child's family.
These individuals intentionally build relationships with the adults around a

(05:42):
child or seek out a child who is less supervised
by adults in their lives. This increases the likelihood that
the offender's time with a child is welcomed and encouraged.
So we are talking a lot about children and grooming
of children in this episode, but it can happen to anyone.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
Right, And I think we're going to talk a little more,
but you and I discuss the fact that when it
comes to domestic violence, that is a type of grooming
as well, because oftentimes they will seek women who have
already been through specific situations traumas in their life, maybe
have grown up with domestic violence in their lives, and
then they kind of hone in on these women and
specifically pick them because they are easier victims. So obviously

(06:25):
that has a lot to do with sexual abuse.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
And it is often the precursor to the crime of
sexual abuse. But sexual grooming is a standalone crime in itself,
but it is hard to prove and you'll see why
that is in a minute.

Speaker 4 (06:41):
So as we're talking about the fact that, yes, it
can be specifically to sexual abuse of children, we're going
to talk about all the facts about domestic violence, as
I had previously said, but also if you look at
gangs and cults, they kind of.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Do the same thing.

Speaker 4 (06:54):
They look for individuals who lack family and therefore need
something to hold onto, and they groom these people into
mentoring and oftentimes involved a way. So if you look
at gang members and you look at the fact that
a lot of teenagers have been recruited for lack of
better terms, they are looking for by the family figures

(07:15):
and this.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Is where they go to seek it.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
And on top of that, they're being taught how to
make money or how to do things without going the
hard route as in like education or building family trust, counseling.
In all of that, it kind of pulls away from
that and they think this is what they want. Same
thing as pedophiles. It's not just a pedophilic act, but
something done out of dominance. And honestly, while we're talking

(07:38):
about pedophiles, let's be specific as the differences of pedophiles
and child molesters, because I think that's not talked about enough.
Pedophiles can be sexually aroused by previous best children and
oftentimes form emotional attachment to their victims. If you look
at Nambla as an example, they really feel like this
is another form of sexuality that have being a relationship

(08:00):
from a young boy where an older man should not
be stopped if it's gentle, and they truly believe that
this is a relationship that people are not willing to see,
which when we talk about the fact that children do
not have the option to consent because they are not
able to say no and understand why they can say no,
which is also an important part about having parents teach

(08:23):
their children it's okay to not to be touched, not
to be tickled, and say I don't want to hug you,
which is very important that we talked about more and
more as of late, and I know a lot of
women and a lot of parents have become very aware
of this and start to teach their children these things.
But Nambla has this whole fixation that I'm in love,
he's in love with me, and I can take care
of them, which is disturbing on his own as where

(08:46):
child molestors and abusers use child for sexual stimulation and
could be more about opportunity than need. So when I
say that, I often see Pierre and peer victim so
youth on youth crimes where youth will actually sexual abuse
another youth may be similar to their age, and not
because they prefer that child, but because it is an opportunity,
and they're still considered child molestor and a sex offender

(09:08):
out on top.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Of that.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
And this conversation, and we're going to talk about this
a little bit more, but it also we can bring
in exploitation and trafficking in this whole thing. The perpetrator
of grooming can be just about anyone. From retired special
Agent with the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit Kenneth V. Lanning quote,

(09:35):
pedophiles span the full spectrum, from saints to monsters. In
spite of this fact, over and over again, pedophiles are
not recognized, investigated, charged, convicted, or sent to prison simply
because they are nice guys.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
As in fact, my experiences in working with sex offenders,
it's common to see a sex offender being the most
cooperative and workable group of offenders. They majority of these
types of defenders are not necessarily violent and often very
aware of their surroundings and how to stay under the radar.
You could also say that for female adults with younger

(10:09):
men or the younger teenage boys, they are not volatile,
but they use their sexuality as well as their dominance
and or power to get control over these youths and
oftentimes somehow convince these teenage boys slash younger boys that
they are not victims, but they are the loves of
their lives. They're their boyfriends, which is a manipulation in itself,

(10:32):
and honestly, not to make you paranoid, but just to
give empower you with information. I think by now people
are aware of all the shocking statistics of human trafficking,
so I kind of want to jump into that. And
for us in Atlanta, that's a really big issue. Atlanta
has one of the highest statistics when it comes to
victims and trafficking, and I think that has a lot

(10:54):
to do with the international airport that we have. We
have heartspelt, so a lot of international flights through there,
so people are easily accessible or lights are easily accessible wherever, as.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Well as our big events.

Speaker 4 (11:08):
And with that, I want to talk a little bit
about sea sick victims, which means commercially sexually exploited children,
which you're going to hear me say that acronym a lot,
and you probably may have already heard it and not
realized what it is. But what it comes down to
is here we're defining children or youth under the age

(11:29):
of eighteen, specifically victims, about how they're found and how
they're picked out, and we're going to talk a little
more about what exactly that looks like the whole human trafficking.
I know that's a pretty big word, and everybody's become
very aware of it.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
If we go, if we broaden out to grooming. We
don't have any solid numbers on it because it's something
that is surrounded by a shame here, guilt or not
realizing that a form of abuse is taking place. Numbers
we do have from two thousand and six indicate that
one in four girl girls and one in five boys
will be sexually abused before they turn eighteen. Some estimates

(12:05):
put the number of child sex offenders as low as
five percent. Again, it's one of those things that isn't
reported on very often, like it's underreported this crime. So
probably numbers are higher than what we're saying, and they're
already pretty high.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
And that has a lot to do with children don't
know how to report, they're not taught how to report one, two,
they feel like they're unsafe to try to actually report,
or they do it way later in time in which
the statute of limitations are gone, and that varies from
state to state, which is unfortunate. And a lot of
times they're discouraged by members that are close to them

(12:41):
to not report. So all of these things have factors
into why it is so underreported m.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
HM and generally, grooming starts as friendship. The groomer learns
what the potential target likes, what they dislike, thinks that
they can use later.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Social media can play a big part of this.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
The groomer can learn a lot about the person from
what they post, and they can use that information to
form a friendship. That's one reason why being careful about
what we post, especially for younger people, is always, always
always recommended. From the stuff you post on social media,
someone could start a conversation about your interests. They might

(13:19):
mention someone you know as if they know that person too,
or in the case of a power disparity in terms
of maybe a job, a coach or a teacher, or
a doctor or a priest, because there already is one
inherent a power dynamic, if a minor is involved, mentioning
the power that they.

Speaker 4 (13:35):
Have right, I mean we can just talk about the
fact you can lose your job. Now if you post
something that may not have anything to do with your job,
you can lose scholarships, you can lose anything, in which
we try to tell everyone, don't be dumb. You will
be found out if it's on the internet, even once
it can be found again. I know that that's one
of the same things that we talk about with sharing

(13:56):
your location. That is beyond dangerous because oftentimes these offenders
are at the level that they will stalk you. I
think the recent case Close Jaden Close, is that her name.
I'm going to have to go back and look at
this who just recently work was kidnapped her after her
parents were shot. Oh oh yeah, he stalked her and
it had nothing to do with social media, but just

(14:17):
the level at some that some.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
Perpetrators will go to.

Speaker 4 (14:22):
He stalked her from a school bus to the home,
not knowing who she was, not knowing who they were,
and was willing to commit murder and kidnapping to get
to her, which is a rude awakening. It happens since
they were Therefore, things like location tagging and all that
can be very seriously dangerous, which needs to be discussed
with your youths, teenagers everyone.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, I've always that scary moment when the at least
for me, it was a little frightening. I've had it
happened a couple of times, but when the lift driver
is like, oh, do you live here alone and you're like, oh.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
No, this is my friend's house.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
I remember being in high school when social media was
relatively new, my marching band director saying that you should
never trust someone who comes up to you and says
something like I know so and so, and they said
I should give you a ride or something like that
because they could find that stuff out.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
From social media. And I remember specifically at the time,
being kind of thrown by that idea. But he, I
mean he was right.

Speaker 4 (15:21):
Yeah. As a nanny, I was really overprotective due to
having worked as an investigator in child abuse and sexual abuse,
and would oftentimes intervene if anything looks suspicious. And I
still think children under sixteen should not be on social media.
I was very upset with my brother and sister when
they are allowed their teens or not empteens eleven to

(15:42):
twelve year old to get on social media and reminding
them this is not safe. You think you have control
over the phones, over the social media, you don't know
what's going on.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
You will never.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
Catch up to the new ways or fads or whatever
that is happening that you think you can be protective.
I know, Kick came out kik for a while, and
that was one of the scariest things to me because
it was those photo messages that would send back and
I actually had a case where a kid sent let's
just stay in an indecent picture to another kid and

(16:13):
then it got spread all around and we came back
and I was like, you know, this is a felony, right,
this is child molestation, this is child porn, distribution of
child porn. And they didn't understand that because they're all children.
But it doesn't have anything to do with age the
fact that you're spreading this. But it's such a scary
thing that I am overly cautious and oftentimes will make
sure that they understand this is not as safe as

(16:33):
you think. I remember I fought with my employer about
getting these kids' phones, and they did. They kind of
stepped up to it because they used the kid version
and then another version. But then we started talking about
the PlayStations, how they're easily accessible to Internet and oftentimes
they use that as an outlet for social media.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, I mean it's a whole scary thing.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
And I mean I could do I could speak for
hours and hours about the harassment I received through a
gaming system.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
That's a different episode. And it sucks.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
This whole thing sucks because once again, the onus is
on us to prevent someone from doing something terrible.

Speaker 4 (17:08):
And someone who's dedicated the majority of my adult life
to this is taxing, and it's never ending. It seems
like I'm just digging a hole, hoping that I'm.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Kind of helping a little bit.

Speaker 4 (17:20):
And then you turn around and there's something new, there's
something different, there's something more.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
And another thing to keep in mind, the parent, adult authority, figures,
support group, whatever it is, of the target are often
groomed as well to progressively accept escalating levels of seemingly
innocent physical contact and isolation as normal. And this is

(17:46):
one of the ways something like Larry Nasser happens, which
I read in many places like that situation was just
the perfect thing for grooming or r Kelly, I knew
a guy who was really active in the homeless, transgend
teen community, and he was doing something like this, and
I think he was also a government official.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
He's not anymore. He's in jail. It should be as
he should be.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
And as I've said before, outside of this, I do
acting and unsettling amount of times I often see a
post to alert people that a predator is asking for
pictures or videos of child actors under the guise of
an audition are getting a role. It's disturbing how often
we get into from our agent.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
This guy is not for real. Don't send him any
pictures of your children.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
I think the taboo or the stereotype was the creepers
come around offering you modeling jobs, and it turns out
it's not really modeling jobs, and whether they're trying to
just get nude pictures or assault someone or do something
even more dangerous. That people have started to become a
little more, a little more aware with hope. After all
the Lifetime specials that I've seen, yeah they're all dangerous,

(18:56):
that's what I figured out. But this is a way
to get to you and the kids by promising something bigger, money, power, fame,
all of those things are Kelly. That's exactly what he did.
He takes these fifteen sixteen year olds fourteen year old,
if you're a lee, I guess and promise, I'm going
to build you a future. I'm going to make you
a star, and then starts doing the emotional and physical

(19:20):
and mental abuse with them in order to train them
and subdue them into his power race.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
And that's that power dynamic again.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
And we're going to talk more about that after a
quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back,
Thank you sponsor.

Speaker 4 (19:45):
After this friendship has been established, so we were talking
about that earlier. Just establishing friendship and or some kind
of nicety. The target views the groomer as a friend,
a mentor, or a romantic interest.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
Their guard is down.

Speaker 4 (19:59):
The groomer might start offering gifts or favors and the
goal is to make the target feel like.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
They owe the groom or something. They usually start.

Speaker 4 (20:06):
Small, maybe keeping a promise, but build over time.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Right.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
And I have some personal experience that I'm going to share,
but don't worry, I'm not going into gory detail.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
That wouldn't be.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Good for anybody, but for me, I have had what
I call four periods of sexual abuse in my life,
and the hallmark in all of them, the common thread
was vulnerability and that power dynamic. They all involved authority figures.
The first two times it was someone my parents trusted
and I trusted because I'm a kid and they're in

(20:38):
our authority role in my life. But on the silver
lining side of this awful situation, they ended. They both
ended fairly quickly because I told someone. But the first
time it was a preschool teacher and he had a motorcycle.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
That's what I remember the most.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
He had a motorcycle and I wanted to ride it,
and he offered, like maybe one day, I'll let you
write it, but.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
First let's do this and this and then.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
And he also had a gold stars and I wanted
to be a good girl, and I get these gold stars.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
I mean, that's exactly something that often happens. They give you,
they see the person or the victim, and then they
use exactly what is needed for that individual victim. So
it's not just an overall blanket. It is tailored to
each individual victim. And often, like you, you want to
please someone, and you see this. And we could also

(21:27):
talk about the attachment issues and family life and or
previous abuse, because oftentimes I've seen children of abuse, as
you will show, are targeted again. They're the likelihood of
them being targeted again as a victim goes exponentially higher.
And I don't know how they know, but they know,
and I say they is, and the offenders, the perpetrators

(21:48):
that this is someone that you can groom or may
have already been groomed, and so therefore they can tailor
it once again in a different manner.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah, it's like a predator's instinct.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
And after this whole situation, my family moved for other
reasons too, but in part because of this. And I
don't blame my parents, but they didn't really explain it
to me. And again I think it's a horrible difficult
conversation to have with your young child. But all I
knew was we were moving away from my friends because
I had said something. And the second time, I was

(22:21):
still really young, and it was a friend of a family,
and he definitely played up the whole like boys will
be boys. Your value is in how desirable you are.
This is a good thing. Don't be a cry baby,
don't be so weak. And I felt this pressure not
to say anything that would ruin his life. And I
already felt that I was lesser and that I should
stay quiet and not rock the boat.

Speaker 3 (22:42):
And I was eight, and.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Both of these men, yeah, they knew what to say
and how to earn my chrest and how to keep
me from saying anything.

Speaker 4 (22:51):
Right, And I was going to add with that. That's
part of the thing I see in a lot of
victims is that at the very beginning, they're fairly empathetic,
and therefore they wear the guilt on themselves, which is
kind of why everything's underreported. And as we look at
more the me Too era, even for older women, adult

(23:11):
women who have gone through the situation, whether it's rape
or sexual abuse or whatever as an adult, you see
that same statistics. I don't want to ruin this person's life.
He's a good man, but he is a good They
are a good person, but they only did this to me.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
I'm the only victim. It's okay.

Speaker 4 (23:29):
So so many times a lot of the victims or
survivors are willing to take on his shame, which is absurd.
And part of that is also because people don't want
to hear it, and so therefore it's easier to be
quiet and say never mind, don't worry about.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
It, right.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
That's something I still catch myself like speaking in that way,
like I don't want to ruin his life.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
He ruined his life.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
The third and longest phase of my abuse, it started
as a building of trust. Both of my parents and
my older brother were hospitalized, which was traumatic in excelf
and I had no idea when they were coming back.
I was a teenager in a house by myself with
my little brother, and I was so scared. I was
in this vulnerable state, and these two men knew that,

(24:15):
and they did say something along the lines of like
my parents had sent them, and I was like, okay,
but I was really suspicious and uncomfortable. But I was
grateful that I had some kind of help in this situation,
and even kind of flattered because they would tell me how.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Mature I was or how pretty I was for my age.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
But I had a turning point and I realized, like,
I really don't like these people. I don't want them
near my little brother. I told them I didn't want
them coming around anymore, and they became extremely violent enough
so that I never ever wanted.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
That to happen again.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
It scared the hell out of me, and they threatened
me and my little brother. That's why the situation lasted
so long, because I didn't know what to do, and
obviously so much of my life suffered because of it.
My friend suffered, my mental health, my physical health. But
I felt like I had to be the strong one
for my brother. And every night I just remember laying
awake listening because his room was next to mine.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
I was just not sleep because I was so so scared.

Speaker 4 (25:14):
Right, you are a protector, and actually, any what you
experienced is something many of the perpetrators use as a
grooming tactic as well as that they single out one
child out of a group of peers or even in
a group of siblings, or they specifically target loners for
the lack of a better term, and will use threats
or rewards as a way to maintain their holds over
these victims. And that includes I'm going to hurt your brother,

(25:36):
I'm going to hurt your mother, I'm going to hurt
your father, things that they know you are worried about.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
And they're not.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
Afraid to use these tactics to get what they want
because in the end, they have the power, and that's
more gratifying than the end result of what could happen.
And it works because children believe adults, and that's part
of the problem. We want them to understand adults, we
want them to respect adults, but it's the same time,
do you differentiate respecting the right adult?

Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, I mean these are difficult.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
There are questions, and they're difficult conversations to have, but
we do need to be having them.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
So when the groomer becomes.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
A part of the target's daily life, maybe shows up
at events that the target is attending alone, this builds
that trust and eventually, when the groomer is feeling confident,
they'll start asking for these favors back, and they usually
start as a non sexual favor, and then they become
progressively more sexual in nature, maybe watching pornography together, touching,

(26:37):
sending sexual materials.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
And another hallmark of grooming is secrecy.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
For obvious reasons, the groomer tries to keep this relationship
under wraps, especially in the early stages, and in order
to try to ensure silence from their victims, they will
say something like, don't tell anyone I did do this favor,
because they'll be jealous and everyone will want me to
do the same thing for them. The key is flattery
and to make the target feel special. At the same time,

(27:05):
the groomer starts to distance the target from people in
their life that could help them. Once the physical aspect
of the relationship is established, then shame plays a huge
role in the silence, along with things like force. Are
these threats, Separating the victim from their support group makes
controlling them easier. Treating the target as a co conspirator

(27:25):
is also.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
A part of this. Yeah, one of my abusers was
really good at that.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
He would say stuff like everything you are I made
you as if I owed him a big favor, and
I would willingly go back to him because I didn't
know what else to do. But I knew not going
back to him would make him very angry be a
very bad thing for me.

Speaker 4 (27:44):
And this is where I would step in and say, remember,
guilt and shame and loneliness are major emotions that offenders
know can be easily manipulated. They want to use this
as a tactic to silence you. Guilt and shame we
have on our own pretty easily. Yeah, I could list
off all the exhameful things I did today. I'm not
going to because that's going to be three episodes long.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Unless you guys want to hear it. I'm just plain.
But this is why.

Speaker 4 (28:11):
As a social worker we advise guardians and parents that
they watch out for the physical signs of abuse because
you're not going to necessarily know what's happening. These offenders, groomors,
perpetrators are really good in putting themselves in the middle
of a situation at the perfect time. And it has
nothing to do with your weakness. It has nothing to

(28:32):
do with their weakness. It's just they find the opportunity
and they take it. And again, like I said before,
these offenders slash perpetrators, they seem like nice guys or
nice women, nice people in general. They seem like they're
coming in to help you. They want to make your
life better. And this is the tactic that they know

(28:54):
to use. They can't just come in. There are the
aggressive ones. Let's talk about that. I realized that is
Jamie Close, not Jayden who I was talking about previously,
which he just came in with his mental health issues
and just drug her out. That's more unusual, which is
why we don't hear about that as much. But when
we do, it's like, oh, my gosh, what happened. What

(29:14):
we don't hear about is the years and years and
years and years of abuse that they had from the uncle,
or the years and years and years and abuse of
the neighbor or the pastor or their coach, you know,
stuff like that. That's when you start realizing, oh, my gosh,
I didn't know. And that's also when you start hearing
he was such a nice guy. I thought he was
helping us. And that's part of the problem in which

(29:36):
we can't always see what is happening with a child
until after the fact. So some of the signs, and
I know we're going to go into this a little deeper.
I know you have a laundry list, awesome, so we
can take notes. But just to throw that out there,
some of the signs would include withdrawal and isolation from
the victim, bed wedding, early sexualization, which is something that

(29:56):
I don't think people realize enough because they think it's just.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Funny if they say something ridiculous.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
But when you start realizing what's happening, or at least
sexualization is a big, big part of it, and you've
got to figure out where they're learning this from, because
either way because they are so young, they they may
act on it in a way that you don't want
to know about, whether it's with their cousin, whether it's
with a dog, whether it's with you know, whatever's there
for their opportunity. So that's something that I always talk about,

(30:26):
is like, you need to see how they're acting out.
If they're acting out, you need to be concerned and
start asking why are they acting out? And it may
be as simple as they watch the wrong show. Yeah,
and then we always talk about regression as well, which
they go back and start more and more childlike maybe
you know, thumb sucking, start crying more, all of those things.

(30:48):
But any like I said, I know we're going to
go into more of the details, but just to throw
that out there once again.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Right and grooming.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Another part that that makes it difficult is that it
can be hard to separate from romance because there is
this slow build and it can seem innocuous at first.
The target and other people in the target's life can
mistake it as romance.

Speaker 4 (31:08):
Right, And this is where I want to come back
into talking about human trafficking SLASH, domestic human trafficking and
c SEC that commercially sexually exploited children because oftentimes most
of the targets believe they're going into something on their
own with their free will, thinking that they're coming into
a relationship and or a living situation that's benefiting them both. Oftentimes,

(31:31):
children who are part of these circumstances happen to be
kids who are seeking something better, Like we're talking about
that whole isolating being alone, bad family situation, and honestly,
with the LGBTQI generation is even more prominent in that
group because they're already feeling isolated, if they're being shunned
by their family, they're trying to find someone to help

(31:53):
them to seek out what they need.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
So we're going to go back and.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
Talk about the fact that child's sex trafficking SLASH the
prostitution of children, which is defined as child sex tourism
involving commercial sexual activity, the commercial product production I'm so sorry,
the commercial production of child pornography, and the online transmission
of a video of which child is engaged in sexual

(32:19):
activity in exchange for anything of value. And I think
I wanted to bring this up at this time because
what we often see is that children who are manipulated
with this type of situation, believe, like we said, that
they are in a romantic relationship and see this as
a normal way of living.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
And getting money.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
I've had to have many conversations with a lot of
my females. My girls who go into a situation will
not say that they are victims, even though they know
that they have had to have sex with older men
and give them money to their boyfriend quote unquote, or
they get tagged with the name of the boyfriend as

(32:58):
a way of a marker, or they are having to
pay back for food or drugs that they're giving by
using drugs. So oftentimes I don't think people see that
as a thing. And this is why we have this
conversation of charging teenage girls or teenage boys as prostitutes
is problematic because oftentimes what you see is there is,

(33:21):
for the lack of better terms, a pimp, flash a
perpetrator who is pushing this from behind, threatening her, telling
her she's going to be alone all of these situations
because they are being forced to But we don't see that.
We just see, and I say we, as the government
sometimes until recently, saw that as these kids are committing
a crime, we're going to give them a prostitution charge

(33:44):
or soliciting charge, which is absurd as in fact, we're
talking about that case in Tennessee where she finally was
given to clemency, grained clemency when she shot the man
who was pimping her out at sixteen. And I'm not
gonna lie. I know that what happened was great because
the governor finally released her A granted that. However, he
also said she did a heinous crime, but she's ready

(34:06):
to make up for it, and that's I have a
problem with that. She did a crime, yes, but I
have a feeling as a person who's worked in this field,
to her, it was survival and should we be punishing
her to that level and still using her as a
stigma as a murderer when she was maybe defending herself

(34:27):
or trying to get out of the life without losing
her life.

Speaker 3 (34:30):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
One warning sign, according to experts, is the potential groomers
insistence to meet up beyond what might be considered normal
and potentially utilizing threats or guilt to get the person
to show up. Since the groomer has put a lot
of time and maybe money into grooming, they want to
check in on their progress in the person. Experts also

(34:57):
point out that the target usually has some sense at
something is not quite right, a feeling that isn't there
in consensual romance, like.

Speaker 4 (35:06):
Right, actually, I know, like I said, As I've spoken
with many girls coming out of that situation, they will
tell you at what point they were like, this is
not what I thought. Yeah, there is that moment, whether
it's their first client and or the fifth client, or
when you hit her, or when they you know, or
when she demanded things. There are moments that they have

(35:27):
like I didn't want this. I thought I was in
love and I thought we were in this together.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Right.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
And another thing is that grooming can take place completely online,
coursing someone to take part in online sexual activities like
sending pictures or videos, having sexual conversations. Then the groomer
might tighten their control by threatening to send these things
to the target's friends and family, and a groomer just

(35:55):
they might message one hundred children at a time like
just seeing what sticks.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
And this is again that shame factor. I've got something
of yours. If you don't do this, I'm going to
embarrass you and out you as a deviant or whatever whatnot.
And again I do want to mention even for miners,
they cannot send these sexually explicit pictures because in the law,
you're sending child pornography. Therefore, you can be arrested for

(36:23):
a very sensive amount of time because we know the
GBI for where we are, and FBI see this as
a heinous crime now and they will come at you
at full force.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
Right and kind of a strange aside, but it kept
coming up when I was researching this. This movie called
show Dogs, which was a children's movie that came out earlier.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
In twenty eighteen about I don't really know much about
the show Dog scene, but.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
It's about that, and it actually got recut prior to
its theatrical release because of a scene where a character
was touching the dog's jenitles and telling him to go
to his in place, and people pointed out that this
is something that happens during grooming, telling a child to
pretend you're somewhere else and.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
To throw it out there.

Speaker 4 (37:11):
I have seen cases where children who have been sexually abused,
severely abused, use pets and dogs as their sexual outlets.
So beastiality is not as unheard of for this type
of community. Because as I said before, when opportunity is there,
they're going to try it.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
And when listener Emma wrote about this a while ago,
she suggested we could extrapolate this whole thing out to
a societal level to how we groom and sexualize young
women in the United States and probably a lot of
the Western world. And I mean, in my personal examples,
the fact that these men told me I was beautiful

(37:50):
or that I was sexy. They they knew that that's
how I saw my value, and they knew they could
use that to manipulate me. Are you, Samantha, you brought
up religion. How we could bring it out to that.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
When we talk about grooming or bringing someone up, or
making someone in a certain way. When you look at religion,
not all religions, but when you look at some religions,
they specifically target women to be the subservient person, and
so that subservient person becomes a specific representation of a
good person. So like when I say, I'm struggling with

(38:25):
this term right now. So yeah, for women, sometimes in
some religions they're used as trophy wives. So think about
the stereotypical preacher's wife. Not only are they created to
birth children, but they're also created to hold up the
man and be in the background and all of these
things and make the right food and make the right
gestures and make the right connections, but never be allowed

(38:46):
to be above the man.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Right.

Speaker 4 (38:48):
So you look at religion and you're like, are they
grooming certain things? And you start grooming certain kids to
be pastors, grooming certain kids to be missionaries. Oh, I
see this in you. I see this in you, So
why don't we do this for you?

Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (39:01):
The point being, this could be such a bigger conversation
than the one we're having today, and I think that
is really fascinating and kind of scary to think about.

Speaker 3 (39:11):
But wanted to put that in there.

Speaker 4 (39:14):
I'll be back to do that one too. No one,
that's we're not talking about.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
But yeah, I just created that.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
Okay, perfect.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Well, we do have some more for you about recognizing signs,
but first we have one more quick break forward from
our sponsor.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
And we're back, Thank you sponsor.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
So there are some signs that you can look out
for if you suspect someone you know is being groomed
or I guess even like turning it inward. So alcohol
or drug use, nightmares, changes, in diet are exercise patterns, insomnia,
disordered eating, anxiety withdrawn nature, risk taking, acting inappropriately sexual

(40:01):
for their age, and self harm are suicidal tendencies. And
it's so strange during episodes like these for me because
it's kind of a checklist of things I experienced. And
as I was researching this, I got a pit in
the feeling of my stomach because I retroactively recognize these
signs in myself.

Speaker 4 (40:20):
Right, And I think that happens when you start looking back,
you're like, oh my gosh, this is a clear sign
of and I know I've actually spoken with a few
women and it doesn't necessarily have to do with grooming,
but they didn't realize what was happening was an assault
onto them because they were like, oh, I just gave up,
blah blah blah. I said this and he didn't listen,

(40:40):
but whatever, And then they moved on and we were
having this conversation, they make the realization, oh, my gosh,
I was raped or I was assaulted or I was
being groomed for this, And it's that clarity of oh yeah,
because also at the initial moment, you don't want to
say you're a victim that's the last thing you want
to think. As bad as everything is, you don't want

(41:00):
to be one more thing. I'm a victim, and not
that it's a bad thing, but it does feel like
such a weakness even though you shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
It has nothing to do with you.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
Yeah, And I know so many listeners have written in
about that very thing you're talking about, like, I didn't
realize what happened to me was this, and it is.
It's very difficult to accept, like to put it in
those terms, and I think a lot of people will
avoid doing it.

Speaker 4 (41:27):
And I know there's also I'm pretty sure we're gonna
be talking about this in later episodes because I will
be here forever where they don't think it is as bad.
Oh yeah, so maybe as a child you were never
actually raped, when you were touched and.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Fondled, that's bad. Yeah, Well, let's just put it out there.

Speaker 4 (41:44):
That's abuse and it shouldn't have happened, and that will
traumatize you.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (41:49):
And if you were able to move past it in
a healthy manner, wonderful. If you haven't, it's not bad,
you didn't do anything wrong, it's not abnormal. You need
help to get past this. Because it happened to you,
it was unwelcomed, and it was harmful. End of story.
There's no this is worse than this that needs to
be thrown out the window.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
M hmm.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, we need to talk about all of these things. So,
the NSPCC has a list of science forged children specifically,
and they include being secretive, especially about what they're doing online,
dating someone older, meeting up with people in strange places,
having new things they can't or won't explain, having access

(42:30):
to drugs and alcohol, nightmares, cleanness, bed wedding, masturbation, or
touching others inappropriately.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
Right, And I think I would include in some of
these things when they randomly start bringing up strangers' names
that you don't recognize, which has happened a lot, and
you start asking questions and if they can't tell you
last names. As a person who has done investigations for
child abuse, that was one of the things that I
would look for. I saw I met with this person? Really,
who is this is my sole and so's friend? Okay,

(42:59):
what's his last name? I don't know. How often do
you see them? When do you just things like that?
That's actually a big sign too. They start suddenly talking
about this wonderful person, but yet you don't know who
they are, where they came from, but they crept up.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
That's something to watch for too.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Right, And when talking about prevention, especially when it comes
to children, it's recommended speaking to them about sex and
anatomy at a young age, letting them know that they
can come to you with concerns, and teaching them about
grooming behaviors and like you were seeing touching, like if
you don't want to hug, it's totally cool.

Speaker 4 (43:32):
And I think it's just a reminder for the parents
or adults who are dealing with the situation too. If
this happens to your child, your niece, your nephew, your student,
it isn't your fault. And I know part of that
shame comes on to the parents or adults as well.
I actually experienced this myself as a child. I'd gone

(43:53):
through several different types of abuse and I was acting
out in class and I also was suicidal because my
parents didn't know what to do, and they felt shame
and they felt guilt. They lashed out in a different manner,
which they have apologized. And we've gone through all the
knows and is, but essentially making me feel more ashamed

(44:17):
and not being able to come out again with any
of the more information. Right on top of that, this
should not be something that you beat yourself up for.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
That is part of the help as well.

Speaker 4 (44:27):
You being in the proximity of someone else being victimized.
It is not your fault either, and you need to
care for yourself as much as you need to care
for this victim.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
Right Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
And as I've said on the show before, I've actually
never told anyone in my family any of this, like
they would be shocked, and part of that is because
I didn't want them to feel guilty, right So, and
the thing is that that's me. They've never really given
me an indication that they would, but that is a
part of like I considered that I haven't told them.

(45:02):
So those that's a good point, and we have some
some resources to put in here. If you realize that
you are someone you know is the target of grooming,
there is there is help for you out there. The
first step is recognizing what's going on. Once you do that,
identify someone outside of this relationship that you can talk
to about it. In a perfect world, this would be

(45:25):
a professional, someone who doesn't know the groomer, but that
isn't always an option for everyone. Unfortunately, you can find
resources online that have advice on getting out of a
situation like this, and you can call the US National
Domestic Violence Hotline, which is eight zero zero seven nine
nine seven two three three or the US Victim Connect

(45:47):
Resource Center eight five five four eight four two eight
four six. They also have online options, but I mean
one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen is
that they have like this function or if you click away,
it erases your history.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
Right.

Speaker 4 (46:00):
There are several options for domestic balance victims where you
click it and goes to whether it's your dial page
or whatever. Unfortunately, it's necessary and I wanted to add
one more out there, which is with the Child Health
National Hotline, so this could be specifically to child services
child needs. It is one eight hundred for a child
so or one eight hundred four two to two four

(46:21):
four five three. And I know in each individual state
there are hotlines to your department Family and Children's Services
or Family and Children's Services that are available, which in
the perfect world would be the end all, but at
least you are doing something.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yeah, and for listeners not in the United States.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
There are resources in a lot of a lot of
other countries as well, obviously, so there there is help
out there. A lot of times targets of grooming might
not realize what's going on, and we'll outright deny it.
This came up a lot with the thing with r. Kelly,
which makes helping them difficult. And the best way to
approach the situation, from what I've read, is to be

(47:05):
a friend and good listener to the target of grooming,
voice your concerns and give reasonings in a calm manner.
If you try to remove someone from the situation forcefully,
it could get worse for the.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
Person that you're talking to.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
However, if the target is a minor or otherwise vulnerable adult,
an authorized adult really needs to intervene. And again, this
is something you see with like.

Speaker 4 (47:27):
Cults, right, yeah, and again, I keep referencing my job
in my career, I have seen many a times where
parents just kind of go after them, go after them
and continuously because run away kids, run away kids run away.
And one of the big things that we have to say,
we can't make them meant what's going on. We can't

(47:47):
make them say they're a victim we can't make them
say this makes them unhappy because in the end, we
don't know where they come from or came from. And
oftentimes in my job as a social worker working with
children and working with tea, I see that they think
this is a better route because they feel like they
have more control than what was happening at home. So
that is definitely a situation, and there's not much you

(48:10):
can do other than make sure you're there for them, yeah,
and continue to be there for them and check in
on them.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
So I guess to give a little bit of closure
for what I was talking about earlier in my situation.
The longest phase of abuse I had, it ended with
a car crash and arrest that I still feel very
guilty about because I really wanted them out of my
life and I couldn't do it, And when it happened
in this abrupt, violent way, I was so relieved, and that,

(48:39):
even though I know it's totally legitimate and human to
feel that way, it made me feel really awful about myself.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
So that's something I still struggle.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
These aren't easy, easy things to deal with, Like we're
giving you advice, but we're telling you from people who've
experienced things.

Speaker 4 (48:55):
We know it's difficult, and this is where we're coming
back to understanding trauma. And that's why we are talking
about this, because we want you to see every different aspect.
Maybe all you had was the grooming experience that's still traumatic.
Maybe someone you knew went through that experience that's still traumatic.
And of course we want to keep talking about it
and keep going into it as we go into more

(49:16):
of these episodes. But again, these are things that both
Annie and I have experienced, have seen, continue to see
and try to hopefully champion for the people who can't
champion for themselves essentially, but it's important once again to
take care of yourself and these guilt acknowledge that they're there.
Trying to pretend like it's not there does not work,

(49:38):
I promise.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (49:41):
I have come out on many panic attacks trying to
repress a lot of a lot of things in my past,
and unfortunately, which is what we're going to talk about,
with the different types of trauma, PTSD, CPTSD, all of
those things it comes out, unfortunately, whether it's in your
relationships in a daily life, or whether it's in panic
attacks or mental health things, it does. And so therefore

(50:01):
caring for yourself and acknowledging that these are there are
actually very very important.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Yes, and that brings us to we're going to try
to end all of these episodes with some self care stuff.
So we're gonna like go through what we're doing for
self care for me. I am finally watching Spider Man three,
which I know some people would argue with the opposite
of self care, but I'm.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Excited about it.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
These are nerd things. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
It's notoriously okay, pretty bad, and I'm making I'm doing
this because I'm working on a Venom parody music video
so very important, which I'm very excited about.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
Oh gosh, I am too. I can't tell you how
excited I am about it. It's oh, please be in it.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
I'm recruiting everyone who will help me, so listeners if
you guess them. It's a song parody to the tune
of Beck's Loser because in the movie Venom, if you
don't know, he calls himself loser in a very funny
tone of voice. Anyway, also hanging out with friends and
going hiking, and for the D and D factor of

(51:07):
the episode because I'm going to include one of these
for everyone, since the whole reason I started playing.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
D and D was to deal with my CPTSD.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Okay, so one thing that's great about D and D
or terrible, depending on who you ask, is that it
rarely goes as planned for anybody. And my character is
sort of notorious for blowing stuff up. And and in
the game, we were invited to this very fancy party,

(51:37):
like we had to buy dresses our suits.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
Yeah, very fancy. It went terribly awry.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
All the authorities of this entire town are looking for it, like,
they chase us out of the party, and I make
time my character to blow something up while we're being
pursued by the police.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
And then.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
We broke into this mean old lady's magic shop again
being pursued by the police.

Speaker 4 (52:07):
Okay, when you're saying this is all on the game
not in real life, because I got really for a second,
I was like, how are you not arrested? And also
who has a magic shop? I keep going, I'm ready now.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
Yes, So we're we're not great people, if that's not clear,
our characters are, but we're fun.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
We're fun at parties.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
Are the party's imaginary parties. Oh okay, so in parties
both we'll see, yes.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
But one of our party members.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Stole an outcloak that when he put it on, our
dungeon master is the person that's kind of running the game.
He said, you're not sure what it does, but you
feel really confident. And now he never takes his character,
never takes it off, and he looks cool as hell.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
He always describes how he's wearing it.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
The next day after we played, Paul Mannerfort got busted
for his ostrich coat, and I thought.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
It was perfect.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Perfect.

Speaker 4 (52:59):
So he's prettymuch much Dungeons and dragons all metaphor exactly.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Who doesn't want to be that?

Speaker 4 (53:04):
Oh my gosh, I don't care right there, that's the
parody in itself. It is, okay, So my fun facts
would have to do with my dinky dog, Peach's Gertrude buzzing.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Yeah, that's her full name.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
She I yelled that out loud to her when she
does something dumb, which is often, And I have been
told that dogs take on the characters of their person
I can't deny that. I can't deny that she's a jerk,
but I love her. She can't go out in public
because she acts a fool, but she loves everyone except

(53:41):
for other dogs. She loves men more interesting. And I'm
not gonna slut shame her, but that makes me feel
some type of way because I don't have.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
That many men coming through my life. And I already
feel kind of weird about.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
That because I feel like I should, as we talked
about the previous episodes, so I feel like she's giving
me a double wimy of shame. I'm like, you're not
good enough, and why don't you have a man? I'm
pretty sure that's the look I got from her.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
And if you.

Speaker 4 (54:07):
See, if anybody ever wants a picture of me and
her during the New Year's and I give her a
kiss and she rolls her eyes at me, that is
a constant yes.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Yes, And you have offered before if you have pictures,
she has pictures, and if you want them, if you
need them for your own self care, you can write
in God him.

Speaker 4 (54:26):
She's wearing a hat, and one she's wearing a tiger suit, no,
a lion suit, and one Christmas pj's.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
In one she's sitting on top of people. In another.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
Goodness, see a lot of options.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Yeah, And if you need resources, you can reach out
to us as well. Samantha will be back in our
next episode whatever, and this series on examining trauma, and
the next episode is about trauma specifically, so you can
look out watch your feed for that. In the meantime time,

(55:00):
if you want to email us if you need any
of those resources or those pictures, you can. Our email
is mom Stuff at hawstuffworks dot com. Our Twitter is
Mom's Stuff Podcast, and on Instagram we are stuff We've
never told you. Thanks as always to our producer Andrew Howard,
and thanks to much for listening.