All Episodes

June 19, 2024 68 mins
Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Stuff I never told you a production
of iHeartRadio, and today we are thrilled to once again
be joined by friend of the show contributor Amazing Personal
Around Joey.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Welcome, Joey. Hello. Yes, we always.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Love having you, and we've been talking about some future
projects that we'll.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Be working on together.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yes, today you were bringing a topic that is timely
important and I specifically have a lot of thoughts about
so I'm very eager to get in to it.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
So it's Pride Month, the happy Pride months.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Everybody here, Yes, And with that, I figured you know this.
I'm sure a lot of peopleeople are feeling. This has
been a little bit of a weird Pride seasons for
a lot of reasons, and so today I kind of
want to talk about one of the big issues that
is at the root of like some of this weirdness,
which is of course should be straight boyfriends of bisexual

(01:15):
women come to Pride.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Never mind, but I'm sorry, I.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
Need to get one thing out of the way really quick.
That whole argument online is driving me insane. It is
not a real issue, you guys. I have yet to
see somebody argue, for no, we should not have any
straight people at Pride. I think people are making a
big deal out of something that is not an issue anyways.

Speaker 4 (01:39):
I didn't know this is a thing.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
This has been a thing. This has been a thing
on TikTok and the internet.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
As I would say, people who's I'm not going to
get into this, but you know, I think some people
whose view of the queer community and queer issues is
limited very much to online spaces and.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
It's OK, people are dying. I think we can focus
on other things. And that ping said translation today.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yeah, so that leads us to what I'm actually going
to talk about today, which is pinkwashing, which is a
word that you may or may not have heard before.
If you haven't, this is from dictionary dot com quote.
Pinkwashing is a critical term used to refer to the
practice of attempting to benefit from purported support for LGBTQ

(02:32):
plus rights, often as a way to profit or to
distract from a separate agenda.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
And so there's two main ways that we really see this.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
One is corporate pinkwashing and the other is political pinkwashing.
So corporate prinkwashing, you know, corporations using Pride Month or
other sort of surface level marketing tactics to try to
cater to the LGBTQ plus community while also doing harm
to those communities, whether through their economic and political interests

(03:02):
or by just selling harmful products. And then for political
pink washing, certain political parties, governing bodies, or individuals will
use supposed support I'm saying, supposed support for the LGBTQ
plus community to draw attention away from other less savory
aspects of their regime.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
I also want a note I did just learn this. Apparently.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Pink washing also has been used by like as a
term has been used by some breast cancer awareness activists
to describe companies that will like use the pink ribbon
symbol or like.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Be like we're going to donate some.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Money to breast cancer research or whatever, like kind of
advertise that they are like supporting, you know, survivors while
also making products that have harmful chemicals that.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
You know can cause cancer and a lot of other issues.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
So that is not what we're talking about right now,
but that is also something that is bad, and I
think it ties into the bigger kind of issue. Of course,
aberrations using social justice narratives to make a profit rather
than to actually help those communities. So this originally was
just going to be about political pink washing, but I
do think, especially given the moment that we're at right now,
it is also important to talk about corporate pink washing

(04:15):
and also how this ties into political pink washing. So
I'm gonna start by talking a little bit of out
corporate pink washing. So from a twenty twenty two inequality
dot org article on the topic, they said, quote, akin
to the massive Christmas ification, that is a hard word
to say. Stores undergo each December first, or I guess

(04:36):
closer to like November first at this point, Yeah, October
June first brings a wave of rainbows, pride flags of
varying shades, and of course the phrase love is love
in every font, color, and style. Imaginable corporations and organizations
of all stripes, from Advisor to bud Light attempts to

(04:58):
express allyship by covering their low.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Goes in rainbows.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Even the US Marines shared an image of rainbow bullets
dropped to a camouflaghed helmet.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
I hate that so much. They're rainbow bulet Okay, I was,
but I think the moment.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
That like, I like turned me off to the idea
of like mainstream pride parades for me personally, wasn't twenty nineteen,
so before the pandemic, I was at the Chicago Pride
Parade and there was an FBI float, Like what, it
was so weird, Like, I just it was so Also
you could hear like silence around like everybody.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
Robbie was like what, Yeah, it was so.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Weird, But I mean, okay, so so But that kind
of anecdoting side, I think I'm sure a lot of
people that have gone to Pride parades in recent years
have noticed it's gotten very corporate. So yeah, another phrase
that's used to describe this phenomenon is rainbow capitalism.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
So I'm going to kind of use this interchangeably.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
And then I also want to point out this article
was written in twenty twenty two, which is relevant because
we'd a weird spot, like I said, when it comes
to corporate pinkwashing, because this kind of all kind of
came to a head last year in June twenty twenty three.
One of the companies that this quote mentioned was bud Light,
which was one of the companies kind of at the
center of everything that happened last year. I'm sure if

(06:15):
you've been on the internet, if you've been paying attention
to the news at all of the past year, you
kind of know the rundown of what happened. But there
was this kind of huge right wing backlash to companies
like Target and Starbucks and all these companies are marketing
things for pride. Bud Light was on the companies where
there was like this huge backlash because they partnered with
Dylan Malvany. They did not handle the backlash well. They

(06:38):
kind of just dropped her without really reaching out to
her anything. And like there were all these weird videos
of conservatives like destroying bud like cans and all of that.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
So I think that's interesting to point out again, like
I think this is.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Sort of a weird thing to be talking about now
because we're like one year out from this sort of
pivot that.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
We've made where.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
We've kind of seen the ways that pinkwashing isn't a
very reliable measure of progress. So let's kind of start
by talking about, regardless of the backlash and everything that's
happened in the past year, why this particular marketing tactic
is bad. So again, from inequality dot Org quote to
an LGBTQ plus community that has a national poverty rate

(07:18):
of twenty two percent compared to sixteen percent of SIS
straight people. Rainbow capitalism is a slap in the face
away for corporations to reap the benefits of queer allyship
without spearheading initiatives or promoting tangible policies that will have
a positive impact on the community.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Compared to the.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
National poverty rate of twelve percent in twenty fifteen, Transgender
Americans had a national poverty rate of more than double
at twenty nine percent in twenty fifteen. And then they
also point out that transcender people of color suff for
even worse poverty rates, with forty three percent of Latino,
forty one percent of Native American, and forty percent of
multiracial and thirty eight percent of black transgender people living

(07:57):
in poverty. This was only exacerbated during the Panamic. So
they then point out quote. Defenders of pink washing argue
that it creates mainstream visibility for LGBTQ plus community.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Mainstream visibility of the quote.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Defenders of pink washing argue that it creates mainstream visibility
of the LGBTQ plus community, which is particularly important for
clastid people in more conservative areas. But considering these disparities,
we cannot allow corporations to become complacent with superficial allyship
that ultimately only benefits them. And they propose as a
solution to this issue. Quote, advocates argue the practice of

(08:34):
free distribution, redirecting wealth from those who don't need it
to those who do, and empowering organizations that support and
uplift the LGBTQ plus community directly. Additionally, and I feel
like this kind of is the real like nail the
coffin issue. Additionally, according to the article quote, numerous major
firms that have purportedly celebrated pride, including Home devote At

(08:56):
and T have donated roughly one million or more at
each two to LGBTQ plus politicians. So yeah, like you
want our money, but then you're going to support politicians
that are trying to eliminate us. So that doesn't really
seem like allyship to me. So something that I thought
was interesting too that this article pointed out. And again

(09:18):
this was written in twenty twenty two, so before everything
that went down last year, and kind of this rise
of a lot of backlash. One cause that a lot
of these companies do support, or a lot of companies
they said at the time, over twenty different organizations do
support is the Trevor Project, which does really great work.
It is a suicide prevention hotline, but they point out

(09:39):
the fact that quote their status is a queer centered
mental health organization renders them exactly the kind of organization
that businesses are happy to champion. Corporations love to showcase
that they are quote saving LGBTQ plus lives and the abstract,
but never translate that support into mutual aid and survival
efforts for LGBTQ plus communities, which are far more mistorative
and transp normative for real queer folks. So again, I

(10:03):
think this is another issue that we see. And this
is interesting because the Trevor Project was one of the
groups that has been targeted in the past year. It
has faced a lot of backlash from right wing forces
that are like trying to frame it as something it
is not.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
And again, I love the Trevor Project. I've done some
great work.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
But I think the point here is that sometimes it
is easier for these companies to support these sort of
very nice appearing like uncontroversial things such as like yeah,
suicide prevention, saving lives, but when it comes to things
there are more more material more like you know, making
sure that wealth is distributed in a way that is equal,

(10:42):
making sure people have housing and access to food and
all that. That is something that people are silent about,
that these corporations are silent about, and going to this
idea of sort of finding ways to quote support the
LGBTQ post community that feel very uh like respectable and

(11:02):
like nice upfront. This kind of brought me back to
something that I talked about in the last episode I
did with you guys that was about Bottoms and how
the director whose name I kept pronouncing wrong in the
episode I'm so sorry, the director talked about how it
was really hard to secure product placement for the movie
because of the sort of unrespectable tone that it takes,

(11:25):
and like, obviously, not providing product placement for a movie
is not as high stakes as like using the BLSABT
community as a marketing tactic and then not you know,
actually supporting that community or giving back in any concrete way,
or supporting homophobic politicians or whatever, like that's not as
big of a deal in.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
The grand scheme of things.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
But I think like the fact that even something as
small as like a movie, where it's like literally just
an advertising opportunity, like companies were turning that down shows
like the extent to how far they're really willing to
extend their.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Like outl ship.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
Again, these past few years, we've seen some serious backlash
against the LGBTQ plus community, particularly against trans folks, and
this is manifested in a series of bills across the
country attacking things like genderfirming care, drag artists, the ability
to like talk about LGBTQ plus issues in schools, and
even attempting to criminalize the existence of like visibly gender

(12:21):
non conforming folks from public life. I found this article
from The Advocate the tide the rise of medical mistrust
around COVID to this rise of anti trans backlash, which
I think is kind of an interesting way of viewing it.
But yeah, this manifested again and a lot of far bright,
spearheaded boycotts of companies that appeared to associate themselves with

(12:42):
the LGBTQ plus community this past year. According to a
Dazed article from late June twenty twenty three, quote Last week,
it was reported that Starbucks, a brand that has typically
marketed itself as liberal and progressive, is instituting a nationwide
ban on pride, the immerging, and dice in its stores,
citing concerns about right wing backlash. In comparison to years past,

(13:05):
fewer companies have changed their logo to the rainbow flag.
We're influencers, are booking less work and pride events across
the US are struggling to secure sponsorship. There have been
notably less annoying viral videos. No private equity firms assuring
the US that beastligh the house down every day simply
by being our authentic selves. No fast food chains publishing

(13:26):
branded videos teaching us how to bottom.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
That was a weird one. Did you do you guys
remember that?

Speaker 3 (13:33):
Did you?

Speaker 1 (13:33):
I can't remember if it was grubbub.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
It was one of those delivery services that they did
like a bottom friendly like the bottoms.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
That was Burger did the two el bunds, and then
I believe it was drub hub bottom friendly Men to bottoms, Yeah,
the bottom friendly menu. My favorite is Skittles with their
all white skittles because they're like our rainbows can encompass
and like.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
The rainbow as your tag. Lie. Yeah, so this kind.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
Of backlash last year was contrasted with something we saw
through the twenty tens from the Days article again quote
after gay marriage began to enjoy broad popular support, LGBTQ
plus marketing was a safe bet, but the train has
shifted now that pride is viewed by a small but
vocal minority as synonymous with grooming, child abuse and satanism.

(14:29):
And again this articles pointed to the two kind of
big moments last year. In addition to this whole thing
with Starbucks, was the whole thing with bud Light dropping
Dila mulvaney and then Target pulling their Pride merchandise from
a number of stores.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
I do want to say we haven't.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
I don't know if you know this, Joey, but Samantha
and I had to go on a book tour, a
book radio toway.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
You did, really, I didn't hear about that at all.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, so this would be last year. It was awful
because we're anxious people. But anyway, it mostly went fine.
But there was a person who asked us about Dylan mulvaney,
a guy obviously, and it was like Oklahoma parading as
a woman. It offends me. I'm sure it offends you.

(15:19):
And Samantha's amazing and stepped in and was like no,
And I was over here scrambling because I'm like and
we had talked about her, like I knew, Like once
Samantha started talking, I was like, oh, but that was
his point, Like that was flash.

Speaker 4 (15:36):
He didn't care anything about the book.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
He gave note about the book or what it was.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
And obviously I was having a whole chapter about trans
people and the antiology BTQYA movement and what's dangerous about
it and the one thing he was like, you know
and miss gendering heart the entire time. And I think
that's where I pissed off the post because I started
with I started my comments I with first of all,
it was by gender here and she's that she, so
that's what we're gonna refer her. Secondly, like I went

(16:04):
into pissy any move when like kids misbehave, and so
I have to go with you like, one, you don't
do this wasn't two, this is what the other than three?

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Why would you like?

Speaker 4 (16:16):
I just I blacked out to a little bit because
I was like, oh, you're gonna curse him?

Speaker 1 (16:20):
Out and it's it's like, what do you do in
that situation? That's insane? And you know interest on that point.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
We're gonna get to this when we talk more about
like the political pink washing. But it's funny how, you know,
certain people that maybe do not care about women's rights
or about feminism or anything anything so concerned when trans
people are involved, or people that you know, maybe don't
care about LGBTQ plus rights in the US suddenly seem

(16:46):
very concerned about queer people when those queer people live
in you know, non white Christian communities. But yeah, god,
that's insane.

Speaker 4 (17:00):
No, he definitely had that moment, and it was quite
funny because at the end of the interview he didn't
know what to do except for saying, well, do you
see you hear these passionate women here, passionate authors here
of stuff. Mom never told you should definitely uh check
out their book, and we ended.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Passion Okay, I'll go with that. I know that was
a really condescending term.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
I got to.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
I will never forget that one.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, one of my favorite tik talkers right now, there
was a TikTok of somebody that was like talking to
men the same way that like I talked to my
like preschoolers who somebody was like a preschool teacher, and
they were.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Like, no, no, no, no, no, we use our inside for
we use our words. Let's use our words like in
a very like calming foot.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
And I was like that, that's so funny. And I
was like, I honestly like, what else are you supposed.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
To do in that situation?

Speaker 3 (17:52):
So yeah, again, this whole situation with Target and Starbucks
and bud Light and every other company that has to
bait and switch with their support for the LGBTQ plus
community this last year and continue to be silent this year,
which again this year, Target has pulled their Pride merge
from a number of stores. They're only selling it online

(18:13):
and quote in select stores. They're sighting it's a safety issue,
but yeah, they're also have been Like I it was
interesting when I was writing this because I remember one
of the things is every you know, every Pride month,
all of these corporations go on and they changed their
logo to a little rainbow with their logo and you
get like Lockheed Martin but gay for the.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Month of June. I am.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
I get to see a company do that this year.
I'm I don't know if there's any out there. I
have not seen any on just.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
I've seen duly.

Speaker 4 (18:48):
According to according to the Mini Babulls on TikTok, they're
saying they lost two million followers because they did that,
and at one point they were unverified from TikTok. And
I don't know why.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
I have other issues, but.

Speaker 4 (19:05):
I haven't heard this necessarily from them, but from like
people who follow Due Lingos, like why did they lose
so many people?

Speaker 3 (19:11):
Weird?

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, I haven't.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
I haven't been paying attention as much. I will say
with Due Lingo, I love their tik talk.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
It's fun. I think we shouldn't.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
We also should not ignore the fact that they are
a corporation and they have done some weird They made
a like I remember back when, like they ember heard
Johnny Depp trial was they had like a weird joke
they made about that that I was like, Oh, okay,
du A Lingo, dou A Lingo is doing this, Like, okay,
that's weird anyway, cut.

Speaker 4 (19:39):
It out from what I understand in the social media
coordinator a queer I think so community person like she talks.
I've seen her account because she blew up with like
all of her like sas bag about.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
Doing that dueling, which again kidnapping parents.

Speaker 4 (19:55):
Oh yeah, you know, I have your parents in your
basement in my basement until you They.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Really like lash on the whole leg harassing.

Speaker 4 (20:04):
I'm like, I'm very confused about this tactic, but people
seem to really enjoy.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
It, so you do you right, It's interesting, It's okay,
And again, like I think it is funny. I think
it is important to remember, uh, corporations or corporations and
marketing is marketing. But yeah, who knows that person that's
running their account because like they're doing a job anyways,
So yeah, kind of But going back to this whole thing,

(20:31):
I think what this really shows corporations are not motivated
by morals.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
They're motivated by the market.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
If we are relying on our marketability or our ability
to make money for capitalist entities, to earn our acceptance
or even just like base level tolerance safety all of that,
like we're screwed if that's what we're relying on. There's
all these going to be situations like this where companies,
our companies are going to cave to they don't care

(21:01):
about you. They care about making money. If they think
that you're no longer profitable, they're not going to keep
supporting you. This is what we're seeing right now, and
I do think again, just to complicate this a little
bit and contradict myself, I do I do understand. I
do understand the argument that, like, hey, if you're a
kid living out in the country and like a small

(21:22):
town somewhere where like you don't have access to a
larger queer community. Maybe you're living in like a pretty
homophobic area or with homophobic parents or something, and like
you see a pride flag at Starbucks or like a
pride like section at Target, that can be important.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
But I think.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
As important that as that is, and it is important
that that less normalized. We're seeing the main stores that
Target and Starbucks and all these bigger corporations are pulling
their pride merge from. Are these stores that are in
more conservative areas and more right wing areas. The one
kind of benefit of it is like the first thing
to sort of crumble, you know. So I just I

(22:06):
do not think this is an effective way to seek liberation.
I don't know what the exact answer is. We do
still live in like a capitalist healthscape, you know, society.
But yeah, this is it's just not it's not a
good situation. Corporations are first and foremost motivated by profit.
They do not care about your existence. They only care

(22:28):
if you're giving the money. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:30):
Right, And again just as a reminder, this is bare minimum.
We talk about like anybody giving an effort, and when
we get like, oh, it's a big corporation. They're taking
a stand, they put a rainbow on something to make money.
That is the bare minimum, right, Like in this level
of like we want to give compliments and shout outs
to people who actually do heroic things versus self serving,

(22:53):
minimal things that should have already been that s. This
shouldn't be a surprise, It shouldn't be new, It shouldn't
be one time a year. It should so that you
can get on a float. Like there's just it's just
an odd like level of like, yeah, but why are
we rewarding them again?

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Exactly?

Speaker 3 (23:17):
So now pivoting a little bit to talking about political pinkquashing.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
So pinkquashing is a.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Tactic that's used by a variety of political parties and
individuals and governments. Kind of going to my hometown and
my low I don't lit there anymore, but i'm my
former local situation. I would argue the whole campaign of
former Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot was probably like a pretty
classic example of pinkwashing.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
That was when she was campaigning and when she was elected,
it was.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Like a big deal that she was our first like
openly lesbian mayor, and that was great, except she did
a bunch of ad stuff then too that hurt a
lot of queer people and a lot of like you know,
queer people of color, like queer people that were like.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
In impoverished areas. So yay.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
Anyways, I use that example to say, like, this is
something that occurs in a lot of different places, in
a lot of different forms, but it's most commonly used
when we're talking about Israel. I want to upfront, I
just want to make it clear the Israeli government is
currently enacting in genocide. Like I'm going into it with
that as like the baseline knowledge of what's happening right now,
Like I'm not going to spend some time trying to

(24:30):
argue the fact that that is happening. The most recent
deathold I could find was from about a month ago
and it was thirty four nine hundred Pausan means and
occupied territories that have been killed. That number is undoubtedly low.
So yeah, again, a number of genocide scholars, many of
whom are Jewish. That should not matter, but many of
whom are Jewish, have been calling this a genocide. I'm

(24:52):
going with the base assumption that everybody listening knows this
is a genocide. So about a month ago here in
New York, where I live now, Act Up held a
protest outside of the GLAD Media Awards, criticizing its silence
regarding Gaza, as well as the organization's partnership with the
Anti Defamation League or ADL, an organization which purports to
track hate crimes in the US. But those numbers are

(25:16):
very skewed because they like to include things like peaceful
student protesters, and for a while they laid the whole
Black Lives Matter is a hate organization, a lot of
weird stuff that's not necessarily.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Violent or hateful.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
Yeah, they have a very skewed definition of what constitutes
an anti Semitic hate crime.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
So at this protest, drag.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
Artist Chikakita and ded Opulence also staged a protest inside
the awards ceremony and were escorted out by Glad I'm
blinking on her name, but there was a pretty big
drag queen who I know has been on like Rupaul'
drag race and stuff, who had won a big award
at this event, and she like later came out and
was like, I had no idea like this protest was happening.

(26:00):
If I had, I definitely would have would not have
gone to this, and like I'd support the protesters all that,
so like.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
We love it.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
I think this was a really pivotal moment, this protest
for the conversation around like what we're expecting from queer
actives organizations and what solidarity means, and like why it's important.
It was a pretty big protest. Act UP is an
incredibly important organization. I would argue they have done some of,
if not the most important work to save queer lives.

(26:28):
If you don't know, act UP was kind of the
biggest organization to come out of organizing during the AIDS crisis,
and they staged a lot of really effective protests and
die ins and stuff to get attention on the AIDS
crisis and medical research towards the AIDS crisis, and you
know they they're very cool and very.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
Important and have done some really important work.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
An article from them that covered the event stated in
a statement included in act up's original press release, Nor,
a queer Palestinian Syrian artist writer, said that quote, it
goes without question to me that there's no such thing
as queer liberation without the liberation of Palestine. We fight
for Palestine in honor of our queer history and ancestors,

(27:10):
for those queer Palestinian siblings of ours living in Palestine,
and for all those generations to come. Nor said this
violent unjust oppression, apartheid, bombs, weapons, mass destruction, disabling, and
displacement of indigenous humans does.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Not discriminate, un quote.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
And so I want to start by talking about this
moment because I think this really shows the shift in
the effectiveness of political pinkwashing, much like how a year
ago we kind of saw the shift in the effectiveness
of corporate pinkwashing, and I think that's a good thing.
So when talking about pinkwashing, there is this really fantastic
article that I will link in the show notes by playwright,

(27:51):
activist writer Sarah Schulman that was in the New York Times.
It was from twenty eleven, there was an opinions piece
about pinkwashing, and this piece from twenty eleven is credited
with being one of the things that brought the term
pinkwashing into the mainstream when talking about Israel. So she
was not the first person to coin this term, but again,
like she's credited with kind of bringing it into being

(28:14):
one of the people that brought into the American in mainstream.
So in her article, Shulman says that pinkwashing is quote
a deliberate strategy to conceal the continuing violations of Palestinian
human rights behind an image of modernity signified by Israeli
gay life unquote. She then goes on to quote, guys,
I did not pay attention to Hebrew school. I'm so

(28:36):
sorry for how I'm about to say all these names
a yell. Gross I got that one who's a professor
of law at Tel Aviv University who says, quote, gay
rights have essentially become a public relations tool, even though
quote conservative and especially religious politicians remain fiercely homophobic.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
If you live in the US, that might sound familiar.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
So she points out that this is not something unique
to Israel and that it is quote the co opting
of white gay people by anti immigrant and anti Muslim
political forces is present in Western Europe as well. Again,
I would argue to some extent that I was also
kind of made its way into American discourse.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
She writes that quote.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
The Guardian reported last year so in twenty ten that
the racist English Defense League had one hundred and fifteen
members in its gay wing. The Durban Lebanese and Gay
Federation has issued statements citing Muslim immigrants as enemies of
gay people. She talks about how Muslim immigrants are oftentimes
depicted as being quote homophobic fanatics, while they also quote

(29:40):
opportunistically ignored the existence of Muslim gays and their allies
within their communities and quote render invisible the role that
fundamentalists Christians, the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Jews play
and perpetuating fear and even hatred of gays. Going back
to that manual we're talking about, I mean, it's the
same thing where it's these super right wing homophobic I'm

(30:03):
gonna use my religion to just find my homophobia people
are all of a sudden like concerned about homophobian Islam. Anyways,
and again if this sounds familiar, If that statement sounds
reallier and you live in the US, that is because
on May tenth this year, the FBI released a statement
warning of quote, foreign terrorist organizations or supporters may seek

(30:25):
to exploit increased gatherings associated with the upcoming June twenty
four Pride Month, which.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Again, given what I was just talking about.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
And the increase of attacks on LGBTQ plus people, including
children that have gotten violent in a lot of cases,
most of these attacks being done by white Christian Americans,
this seems like a weird statement to be releasing, just
my opinion, and really quick, before we talk about Israel,
I want to talk a little bit about this uncomfortable

(30:57):
history that we do have to unpack. I think especial
as like white gay people, about how this kind of
line of thought of like using white gay people for
anti immigrant rhetoric or anti Muslim rhetoric or whatever racist
rhetoric has been used kind of in the past, because
this isn't necessarily a new thing. It's ultimately rooted in

(31:19):
this idea that like you can be gay and still
be inclaritably racist and misogynistic, and you know, have all
these very right wing xenophobic neocolonialists ideas like being gay
does not necessarily extempt you from feeling that way or

(31:40):
from acting that way, and we can't necessarily measure the
overall state of progress and like acceptance within a society
just based on whether or not LGBTQ plus people are
accepted within that society. The same way like you could
have a country that you know women have full equal
rights under the law, and that country can still be

(32:02):
incredibly racist or incredibly homophobic, or incredibly misogynistic, for militaristic
or whatever, or be doing these awful things. I think
like the way that this narrative about queer history has
kind of been crafted in the past, it's really relied
on this idea that gay acceptance, like acceptance of gay people,
acceptance of queer people, equals like a war progressive society

(32:23):
or like a more progressive community, and that's all good
and everything's great. That's not necessarily the case, and I
think falling into that kind of mentality can make it
easy to like ignore actual real life racism or bad
military campaigns and stuff like that that is happening under

(32:44):
that guys. If anybody's interested on this topic, I do
want to shout out the podcast Bad Days.

Speaker 1 (32:50):
I'm obsessed with them. They also have a book that
came out.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
The book really goes more into this idea I think
of like the theory behind how we talk about queer history.
But that is a show that really focuses on deconstructing
these narratives about queer history and looking at some of
the like less savory aspects of queer history and some
of there's a lot of interesting episodes or like chapters
of the book that are about like queer fascists or
like you know, I think is a notable historical example

(33:15):
is like the early Nazi Party had a lot of
gay men that were involved. There was this masculinist gay
movement that was happening around the same time that like
the Nazi Party was being formed in Germany, and like.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Early on, there was a lot of overlap.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
You can't necessarily assume that because somebody is gay, or
because somebody is queer, and because it is something that
they are, you know, it's not a like self hating thing,
like they're open about it whatever that necessarily mean. You
can't say that necessarily makes them a progressive person. They
also just did an episode this was I'm braving about
the show. It's a really good show, but they did
an episode like theirs. Last episode I think they did

(33:50):
was about this British woman who was most likely a
lesbian at least, dressed very butch and like appeared very butch,
and appeared to like have open, like out in the open,
not like open in the we'ordating other people's sense, but
like out in the open relationships with women. It appeared
to be who also was the founder of the British
Fascist Party. So again, gay people can suck too. I'm

(34:12):
holding myself back to making a joke there. So I
think it's really important to study this history. And it
brings up another term that this is a little bit
more complicated, because this really is just more of like

(34:34):
an academic term, but it ties into pinkwashing, and that
is homo nationalism, which was coined by Jasper Poir in
her book Terrorist Assemblages, Homo Nationalism and Queer Times, which
seemed dake a really interesting, fascinating book that I really
want to read, but Jay Store would not let me
read it because it said I didn't have access through
my account. So this is Jay Store's fault that I

(34:57):
don't have more quotes than her anyways. But this is
also something that Sarah Schulman kind of expanded upon in
her work and in her book that she wrote called Israel, Palestine,
and the Queer International. She said, through marriage, parenthood, and family,
lgb's and some teas become accepted and re aligned with
patriotic or nationalist ideologies to their country. Instead of being

(35:19):
feared as the threat to family and nation that they
were once seen to be. This new integration under the
most normative of terms is held up as a symbol
of that country's commitment to progress and modernity. They construct
the other as Muslims of Arab, South Asian, Turkish or
African origin as quote homophobic and fanatically heterosexual. And going

(35:41):
back to Israel and how this kind of manifest and Israel.
So in that article, in that otbed that she wrote
for The New York Times, Shulmann talks about the quote
Brand Israel campaign which the Israeli government spearheaded in two
thousand and five, aided by American marketing executives, which quote
sought to depict Israel as relevant and modern. She then

(36:05):
goes to talk about how in twenty ten quote the
Israel news site, Wynett reported that the Tel Aviv Tourism
Board had begun a campaign of around ninety million dollars
to brand the city as an international gay vacation destination.
Which as a queer Jewish American, this is not surprising.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
To be in the slightest. I don't have time.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
To get too much into the weird culture around Birthright,
but if you don't know, Birthright is this organization that
basically pays for you to have a free trip to
Israel if you're Jewish. I think now originally was like
you had to have one Jewish parent. I think that
was like one Jewish grandparent. I'm not a one hundred
percent sure, but if you have Jewish ancestry and it's

(36:48):
run by a big right wing group, it's this big
propaganda thing. Like it's very obviously a big propaganda thing,
but it's also something like in a weird, awful, dystopian way,
this is something that was just like normalized growing up,
Like I was like, Okay, you got a free trip
to Israel from birth Right. You're gonna do that when
you are a young adult, and it's gonna be so fun.

(37:08):
If anybody who's ever seen the Broad City episode where
they're making fun of birth Right, The whole episode is
making fun of the fact they're on like the plane
going to Israel, and it's making fun of the fact
that like a big part of the trip is they're
trying to get people to move to Israel and make
more Israeli babies and so like the whole bit of
the episode is that the guy who's running it is
like trying to get them all to hook up.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Which is it like that far off did you take
this trip? I did not, So I want to get
to that I did not go on birth Right.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
I had the realization that it was weird and I
didn't want to do it before before I was of
age to do it. However, growing up, like in growing
up Jewish and in Jewish communities, like it's something you
hear about and it is something like you know how
there's the marketing of it, and then there's sort of
the like inter personal marketing and a big thing like
I like you always hear from like your older cousins

(38:04):
or like older friends that.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Went on it, but are like a big thing is
they kind of let you.

Speaker 5 (38:07):
Go like clubbing and you get to meet all these
like hot Idf soldiers and it's like very much appealing
to that aspect of it anywhere.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
Appealing to the youths as any would say. Oh, I
will say, I I know about Birthright. I did not
know as an organization. I really it was an actual tradition. No,
that has been like I know nothing, And I was like,
oh no, that was that sounds cool. But that's how
little like as outside of this culture as I am,

(38:38):
I knew of it, and so I did not understand. Yeah,
politically it linked interesting.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
It gets complicated because it's like it's obviously like it's.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Kind of pulling from so in Islam, like a lot
of people will do the Hajj and that's part of
their religion. This is where it's complicated, and like I
don't really have time to go into this. Like there
is a lot of spiritual kind of attap like in
what is now Israel, Like there is a lot of
like spiritual places and stuff like that. I think, like
there is that history. There's no like history of people

(39:10):
going to Israel, like when they reach certain age to
like to see it and like like that is definitely
something this was started in nineteen ninety nine, like it
is a fairly new organization.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah. Wow, I didn't need this all my life.

Speaker 4 (39:21):
That's an interesting.

Speaker 3 (39:22):
Yeah, when I grew up like this was so normalized,
Like this was like everybody when I was always like, oh, well,
it's a free trip. Even people that I knew that
were like not super Zionists were sort of like, yeah,
well it's a free trip, so you're gonna go. Right.

Speaker 4 (39:34):
That's that's how I understood it essentially. But maybe because
I didn't learn about until I was in college in
nineteen ninety nine, I would have been in college in
the next year. Yes, I'm old, however, but like that,
to me, it just made sense. And maybe that's why
I know knew of it is because it was so
new ish to that level. I don't know, but I'm like, oh,
I just assumed that I always said things existed.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Yeah, there's a lot of things about Zionism you get
to learn are not actually is rooted in my histories
you think they are. But anyways, so I bring up
this and this sexuality kind of like on the DL
my cousin told me marketing around birth right. I'm not
gonna say marketing, but I think like kind of you know,

(40:14):
culture round birth Right. I bring this up because they
do some trips that are specifically based around certain identities,
And in twenty thirteen they started doing Pride Birthright trips
for LGBTQ plus people, which I first heard about in
kind of the same context I was talking about, where
like I had a friend, and a friend is a
strong word. Anyways, I knew somebody in high school that

(40:37):
was talking to me about birth Right and they were
really excited about and they're all.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Going out about like, oh my god, I're gonna like go.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
Clubbing and hook up with like hot idea of soldiers
and all that, and I.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Was kind of like, I don't know. I was at
the phase of my.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
Life where I was like I don't know what I am.
I know I like girls, but like I don't really
And I was sort of like I don't know if
that's for me. And she was like no, no, no, no, no,
there's a gay one.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
You can go on. There's a gay one. So that's
very open. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
Again, like I'm saying this whole kind of line of
thinking that like there has been this big marketing push
to portray Israel and Tel Aviv specifically is like this
very gay friendly place.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
That's not surprising to me. That is kind of the
narrative that I grew up in.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
And this tactic of framing Israel as being super gay friendly. Again,
it's contrasted with the image of Palesenians as being ultra
conservative and super homophobic and misogynistic. So going back to
this framework of homo nationalism, which you know, we're also
seeing happen in Europe with these conservative groups pointing to

(41:37):
predominantly Muslim immigrants and being like, see, they hate gay people,
we must be racist to them. A similar thing is
similar thing happened in America post Side eleven, you know,
which is interesting because that was like maybe one of
the most conservative moments in American history. But you know,
a lot of politicians that didn't seem to care much
about women having rights in the US all of a

(41:59):
sudden seemed very concerned about women under the Taliban. But yeah,
so this is kind of a similar situation what's happening
in Israel. YouTuber and activist Matt Bernstein made a really
fantastic video about pinquashing in November twenty twenty three, which
all link in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
Again, definitely recommend watching it.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
He does like a really fantastic interview with a queer
pals on Theian Activist. But there's one thing in the
video he said that stuck out to me, and it's
that over the last month, I've had so many people
from my personal life, people who I grew up with,
people who have never once reached out to me to
express concern about the state of queer rights and the
free fall trans rights in this country over the last

(42:35):
two years, have been reaching out to me to remind
me that, hey, you know, you would be murdered if
you went to Gaza as a gay person.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
And it's just.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
Weird because I live in the US, and here in
the US there's over five hundred anti LGBTQ plus bills
which have been introduced in legislature since the start of
this year. You have trans people in Florida who are
starting Kickstarter campaigns they can flee their home state because
it's not safe to be trans there anymore. The Republican
Party has made the hatred for queer people and the
complation of queer people with pedophalia. I have no desire

(43:04):
to compare the state of queer rights here versus those
in Palestine or frankly anywhere else. This is not the
oppression Olympics. And I, for one am extremely aware of
my privilege living in a place like New York as
a queer person. But it does make me wonder, right, like,
are these people are reaching out to me to remind
me that I would for sure be murdered if I
went to Gaza as a gay person. Are they really
concerned about the hypothetical safety of me if I were

(43:25):
to take a trip to Gaza. Are they really concerned
more importantly about the safety of actual queer Palestinians that
do live in Gaza?

Speaker 1 (43:32):
Or is this.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
Homophobia being wielded as a tool as a crutch in
their argument for why I should feel okay with the
ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from a land they once called home.
And this video was made in this past November when
photo went viral of a IDF soldier holding a Pride
flag in Gaza, and the caption was something like.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
First Pride Parade in Gaza, which.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Zionist media personalities love to be like use it as
kind of a gotcha moment where they were like, see,
like they don't like we like gay people, they don't.
But like you know, a lot of other queer folks
on the internet were quick to point out, You're standing
in a bunch of rubble of this place you just bombed,
Like they're not gonna have a pride parade because you
just bombed them.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
Like what. It is such a weird line of thinking.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
So, going back to Shulman's piece in The New York Times,
she says, quote, pinkwashing not only manipulates the hard one
gains of Israel's gay community, but it also ignores the
existence of Palestinian gay rights organizations. She then talks about
three Palestunion LGBTQ plus organizations US what al Quas and
Palsenion Queers for Boycott Divestments didictions Again, I'm so sorry

(44:45):
if I said any of those wrong.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
I'm sure I did.

Speaker 6 (44:48):
So.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
In an article about pinkwashing, the Al.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
Qua's website says, quote, the open inclusion of gay officers
in the Israeli occupation army is used as proof of
liberal forward minds, But for Palestine, the sexuality of the
soldier at a checkpoint makes a little difference. They all
field the same guns, where the same boots and maintain
the same colonial regime, which yeah, I think really gets

(45:10):
to the point. It's fine, Like, it's great if you
let gay people serve in your military, But if what they're.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Doing is upholding a violent.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Occupation, that's not exactly liberatory politics in my book at least.
So this article states that quote, Israeli cedral colonialism works
by breaking apart and eliminating Palestinian communities, whether through a
military violence of occupation and siege, the legal regimes of apartheid,
or the denial of refugees right to return. Yet it

(45:42):
also divides Palestinians internally and psychologically in the personal realms
of self perception and collective identification. The article goes on
to say that only portraying queer Palestinians is just like
helpless victim with no agency. By doing this, israel Quote
suggests that Palestinian society from pathological homophobia and that noe

(46:02):
assenting voices could ever survive for.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Long within it.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
But quote, the fantasy of Israeli humanitarianism falls apart as
soon as the colonial situation is taken into account. There's
no pink door in the apartheid wall, and so let's
use that to pivot to how Israel actually treats it's
lgbt Q plus citizens and how it treats LGBTQ plus Palestinians,

(46:26):
these sort of hopeless victims.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
It suddenly seems interested in saving.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
Disclaimer up top, much like what Matt Bernstein said in
his video, I am not interested in playing a profession Olympics.
I don't think it's productive to have conversations about LGBTQ
plus rights or the rights of any marginalized groups that matter,
and have it revolved around like, well, this is the
worst situation you can be in.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
So if you're in anything better, or you can't complain
or you can't.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
Whatever like that, that is a way to heed progress
like that is a tactic literally to stop us from
reaching the potential that we can reach. When I talk
about queer liberation, it's with the future focus. It is
how can we improve the society that we are living in.
So I'm not going to do this as like a
I don't know. I'm acknowledging that, yes, there are certain

(47:10):
communities that you can grow up in. It is much
much much more difficult and unsafe to be queer. But
that doesn't mean we should ignore real valid homophobia and
transphobia and slightly safer places so like, and again, if
you're from the US, you should probably understand this, Like,
just because a country has some rights for gay people,

(47:31):
where gay people are allowed in the military or in
the US, we're allowed to get married and Israel that's
not the case, but you know, you're allowed to exist
in public whatever. That doesn't necessarily mean that the politicians
in power are not violently homophobic, and it doesn't mean
that the culture as a whole is not homophobic. And
then also having these enclaves like in Tel Aviv or
like in New York doesn't necessarily mean that there are
not parts of the country that are also still deeply

(47:54):
deeply homophobic. And much like when we talk about these
American corporations that are using cry to appear progressive while
giving money to anti LGBTQ plus politicians, the Israeli government
loves this kind of to market Israel as a gay
safe haven. Will also like saying some of the most
violently homohobic.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
And transphobic things.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
So in twenty twenty two, Israeli Prime Minister Ntnyahuo signed
a deal with the Noam Party. Again, I was really
bad at Hebrew School, which is a far right, anti
LGBTQ plus Islamophobic group, which would make Avi MOA's deputy minister,
and he would run Jewish Identity Authority, which is really weird.

(48:39):
And I do not have time to unpack that that
this is a man who would not consider me Jewish
because my mom is not Jewish, and it has made
efforts to try to limit immigration from certain groups that
he doesn't deem Jewish enough for Israel. According to the
BBC quote, mister Moads has described lgbt people as a
threat to the family and has said he wants to

(48:59):
cancel Gabe Pride parades. His party ran a poster campaign
in twenty nineteen with the words quote Israel chooses to
be normal. He has also said a woman's greatest contribution
is in marriage and raising a family. The current Finance
Minister of Israel and the National Security Minister are also
kind of the same mindset. The two of them were

(49:20):
responsible for organizing an anti LGBTQ plus protest in Jerusalem
during the Jerusalem Pride Parade in two thousand and six
that was called the Beast Parade, which should give some
hints into how weird and vile some of the propaganda
around it was. Again, they shouldn't be surprising. Israel has
a bar Rak government right now. They do not care

(49:45):
about queer Palstinians, and they do not care about their
own queer population.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
They don't care about Queersorelis either.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
So it feels, I would say, hypocritical to be screaming
about gay people should support Israel because if you went
to Gaza you would be k killed. Palestinians are homophobic,
et cetera, et cetera, when Israel is also run by
a bunch of homophobes right now, And going back to
how the Israeli military actually treats queer Palestinians again, these

(50:13):
like hopeless victims. In twenty fourteen, a group of whistleblowers
that were Israeli intelligence veterans revealed that their unit would
intentionally seek out LGBTQ plus Palestinians to use their sexuality
as blackmail so that they become spy.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
So and it seems like.

Speaker 3 (50:36):
This has been a practice that is continued, like this
is something that comes up a lot I think during
conversations behind quashing and Israel's pinkwashing, like blackmailing people with
their sexuality so that they spy for you. That's not
necessarily being pro LGBTQ, at least in my book.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (51:08):
And so Okay, if there's one sort of positive note
that I do want to leave on, it is that
I think the good news is and I opened with
that story talking about the act UP protests with the
GLAD Awards, I think the conversation is changing and we're
seeing that pinkwashing is not working the same way it
used to. And even though certain mainstream institutions like the

(51:31):
Human Rights Campaign and GLAD are still silent on the
ongoing genocide and working with groups that are actively supporting
this genocide, a lot of prominent individual activists as well
as more grassroots ground up organizations like act UP had
been very vocally supportive of Palestine and supportive of a
ceasefire and have fought back against these pink washing efforts.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
There was again, there was that purchase in.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
New York an article from them wrote about how LGBTQ
plus groups have also organized protests that have Black Pride
parades in Boston, DC, and Philadelphia. So far, according to them,
quote in New York City, Queen's Pride has significantly fewer
groups merching due to boycotts and solidarity with Palestadians, as
local outlet Hellgate reported. As Hellgate reported, the Pride parade sponsor,

(52:22):
Long Island based nonprofit lgbt Network Quote rallied LGBTQ.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Support groups and support of Israel.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
The outlet also noted lgbt Network president David Kilmannick had
chastised LGBTQ organizations for not supporting Israel in a New
York Daily News op ed. And this is what I
heard about again. Like I live in New York, I've
seen a lot of stuff going on about people calling
for a boycott of Queen's Pride. In my life, I

(52:49):
go to a lot more like local, smaller Pride events,
and there have already been some instances of groups pulling
out of certain venues that have hosted, like Eurovision doing
part despite calls for a boycott, and like other things
where they have kind of either not been open to
talking to activists or just like have completely ignored them
or whatever.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
So I think like at least from.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
A community B level, things are changing and that gives
me hope.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
And I think this just goes to show like how much.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
Social media has like changed the game, you know, and
just how far pinguashing can actually go. I think it's
very similar to what's happening to a lot of like
my young Jewish American peers that are starting to question
Zionism and question like the actions of the Israeli government.
There's some images that you see in some things that
you just you can't justify, and if you find a

(53:41):
way to justify it, like we've been seeing some of
the worst images, like I, at least for me, I've
been seeing some of the worst images I've ever seen
in my life, like over the past couple months or
past like ten months at this point, I think, and
that's hard to ignore.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
That is hard to.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
Just ask people to ignore and justify. And frankly, at
this point, if you are still trying to ignore and
justify it, I am concerned for you and your moral
well being. But yeah, ultimately my takeaway here is the
center of this is that one group's safety does not
require the subjugation and annihilation of another group. And if

(54:16):
anyone tells you otherwise, they're probably trying to get you
to turn a blind eye to some really awful things.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
So don't trust them. I mean, yep, that comes up
a lot. And this show is when people like to
use groups as tokens for things they really don't cure.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
So true, And this isn't even getting into the whole
like bigger conversation about how.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
The military, like the US military and like the cops have.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
Really tried to use pride or being like, look at
all of our gay officers and soldiers to be like,
also ignore all the messed up stuff we're doing.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Will say, Joey, I've told this story a couple of times,
but it was so revealing to me. My mom's church
is going through a lot of stuff, but a lot
of it is based on trans writes. Mmm, and it's
actually a pretty liberal church. But they're like going through
this stuff and my mom was like, well, this gay

(55:23):
guy was against it.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
I was like.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
That that does not mean that he just because he's
gay does not mean that he is right or that
he is not have does not have many biases.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
Right right, Look, we're I mean, we're at a point
being queer is like a weird identity to have because
it is something that I think, unlike a lot of
sort of marginalized identities. Anybody can be queer, like you
can come from any economic background, any like racial, ethnic
back round. Like everybody has their own set of biases

(56:02):
that they go in with, and being queer sometimes leads
people to re examine those structures and re examine their
role in them. And sometimes again going back to that podcast,
Bad Gays wholly recommend people listening to it. Sometimes people
just hold on to that power and that status that
they have and want to also be you know, accepted

(56:23):
as this is all homo nationalism.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
This is where it comes from, this idea of like.

Speaker 3 (56:26):
Well, I'm a normal white gay that wants to get
married and have kids in my suburban white picket fence
household with our two point five kids and our dog.
And I also don't like the immigrants that are coming
in and all of this awful this strand.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
Like, great, you're still a bigot. Then you're just a gay, right.

Speaker 4 (56:57):
And it's the same way when we see immigration issues
in like anti immigrant people who as anti immigrants, but
they're literally immigrants themselves. We have a lot of like
Latin community, especially men like Machismo men who really launched
on the Trump and that was a whole conversation I
still do, and they're like, you know, my parents did
it right until they get arrested and then deported because

(57:20):
of a mistake or whatnot. Like I've seen that so
many times. Florida and itself really had like one of
those around and find outs with many of those Latino
voters being like, that's right, we love the Santas and
Trump because they're standing up for what's good. And then
they're like, oh, we can't get jobs. Oh they're trying
to kick us out of here. Oh they're just pulling

(57:42):
us over just because we're brown, even though I want
to tell them I voted for your people.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
Trump.

Speaker 4 (57:47):
And I see that also with the Asian community. I've
seen many Asian men come on and being like, yeah,
we're definitely pro Republican because b blah blah blah, we
did this right, all these things. I'm like, no, you're
taking on the model minority myth and making it really
harder for most non people people of color in general.
And I'm meaning that as in, like not the black community,

(58:08):
but for those who are of us, all of us
who are in the brown and tan community.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
But like you kind of.

Speaker 4 (58:15):
Sit there like what are you thinking this is not
this is not necessarily beneficial for you, but you really
want to stand on the socialized aim that this is
the hierarchy. So at least if you can be allies
with them, and you could be like ushered in with them,
that you'll be safe in actuality.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
That's not the truth, but.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
We have a lot of bad players that feed into
that and try to use that as leverage as well.
They kind of stand on there and be like, this
is gonna give me some notoriety. This controversy in itself
is gonna give it. Like Candice Owens is like probably
a big giant.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Example of that.

Speaker 4 (58:47):
I'm not I don't know her name. I'm not I
don't even know like who she is, but miss McConnell's wife,
who is an Asian woman, and everybody wants to point
that out about oh see, he's not racist, and I'm like,
uh uh uh uh. She's a token who is absolutely
being used and has been used to play this game,
and she's doing this for her benefit. Nobody else is like,
and she's like, no matter, I don't even know who

(59:08):
she is. I've never heard her spoke, but she's okay
with being touted as that, so we know that, like
that's kind of that level of like this is for her,
that they're fine as long as it's that one, like
she gets what she wants, she doesn't care about anybody else.
And that's that token level of like people really want
to be that player so that at least they're okay

(59:28):
for now.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
Yeah, I uh, the the guys of social acceptance, and
you know, ay, there's money in it. Like, you know,
I could drop everything and become a right wing reactionary
X queer and make a ton of money right now,
except I'm not a complete.

Speaker 4 (59:48):
Right we have morals and understanding of those.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
But also, yeah, like I think a lot of these people,
and a lot of these gay people that are suddenly
becoming very vocally transphobic, they're falling for this idea that well,
if we just act normal enough, we'll be accepted.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
We'll you know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
So it's social acceptances. People want social acceptance. People want
acceptance into these systems of power that already exists. But
that's never that's not a stable way to a like
that's not from a selfish level, it's not a stable
way to stay like, you know, respected and safe and
all of this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Like they're always going to turn on you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
There are a million historical examples off like honestly off
the top.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Of my head.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Now, Roy Cone really interesting case study, and I think
like how complete awful human being did so much damage
to the queer community, did so much damage to like
this country, and then ultimately like diet of AIDS and
all of his Republican besties didn't do to help them, Like,

(01:00:56):
they're not going to save you Jewish people that are
seeing these white supremacists co opt you know, Zionism. This
should be a side, right, This isn't gonna save us, right,
solidarity is and solidarity with other marginalized people is the
only thing that is going to save us. And I
think like, yeah, this is where a lot of these
groups like Queers for Palestine and like, this is what

(01:01:17):
it's rooted in. It's root in this idea that I
can recognize other people's oppression that mirrors mine, and I
can recognize that, you know, at the end of the day,
oppression is oppression. But what's the quote like that what
none of us are free until like all of us
are free?

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
But it's misused all the time. But right, but.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
Yeah, but that's the reality like people should not be
being murdered like this, that should not be right, right,
And I think that's that whole level, Like when we
saw just that one dude, I can't remember that he
was on the uh on the add of protests and
antagonizing people and going after people and turned out like
but he was like anti you.

Speaker 4 (01:01:58):
Know, uh, he wasn't either, but he was at an
anti Zionist protests I think in Colombia or something. And
then it turned out he was really anti Semitic as well,
Like you looked at his stuff and everything was about
how like all these anti Semitic comments. So he wasn't
there protests for the Jewish community. He was there because
he loved antagonizing one side or the other. He loved it,

(01:02:21):
like he loved seeing the downfall, and so he would
rather support who seemed to hold up the supremacy more
than the other. So it's just such an odd narrative
when you start digging deeper into why people are all
of a sudden looking like the good guys. And I
say this very loosely because I'm not that's not I
don't see him as a good guy at all, And

(01:02:42):
I'm all with their protesters.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
So but you know what I.

Speaker 4 (01:02:45):
Mean that that narrative, right, that narrative of like, yeah,
I'm for this cause and then you're like, but you're not.
You're absolutely anti semitic and you are gross and he's
racism and all those things. But it's like you find
those and you're like, what the hell is happening? And
people are gobbling him up and seeing him as a
hero exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Yeah, well that's like linking it back to the corporate
pink washing stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
It's like Lockheed Martin loves past, like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
The eye flow. The eye which historically like did the.

Speaker 4 (01:03:20):
Last ride are right? They spied on people? Has still
lists till this day. It was impossible.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
Well you know, I mean, I guess they were like
Jangar Hooper, like keeping the traditional eye. But again another
awful queer person who did a lot of damage to
the queer community as a whole. And and you know
the ability of people to live free and justin normal lives. Anyway,
I gotta honestly this, I just remembered this and Annie,

(01:03:50):
this is for you. This is my time on Sminthya.
I gotta bring this back to Star Wars. Remember when
they decided that Tarkan was gonna be gay, Like they
just decided to make him gay one time.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
This is literally that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Yeah. I remember seeing a bunch of memes that people
were like diversity when the guy who like blew up
alder On.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Oh yeah, it's gay, here's one of your own.

Speaker 6 (01:04:16):
But he's evils, maybe like unintentionally one of the funniest
like like reflections of the state of like queer liberation
right now where it is that weird like hyper focus
on like military endeavors and it's like, see, we have rights.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
You guys can go kill people. Another cut, you can
go blow up alder On.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
So anyways, he had a whole military doctrinemn I don't know.
I'm still on the Oscar Isaac fin Po trainin Poe
uh fight for liberation.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
Yes, they'll be talking. Well, don't be target. We can
agree on that. He's terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:05:03):
Even Darth Vader, the lesbian couple from and Or, they
were cool.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
They were cool. We finally got some cool. Yes, yes, yes,
that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
Happy bride, Oh my gosh, it's always a delight to
have you, Joey, thank you so much for coming on.
Of course, very of course, very excited to have you
on again.

Speaker 4 (01:05:33):
I'd be pride, y'all, happy pride, happy pride, the two
of you, just us, Thanks, thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Just the two of you. Nobody listening. No, this is specific,
and this is actually I will say it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
So I have June his pride month, and then July
is my birthday month, which means that every day is
my birthday in July. So two months in a row
that are all about me. I love the summer.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Is it your favorite season?

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
It is my favorite season. I'm a big I'm a
sun baby. I am like super super pale, which is
really funny. But I will like I love to spend
as much time out in the sun.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
As I can.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
That's funny because we keep trying to get you to
come to Atlanta and you're like.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
To change your lives. It's fair, No, it's fair. It
is completely fair. We're saying like high nineties and that
I was I was that. I'm a northern I'm a
Northern nerve.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
When I say hot, I mean like mid eighties, mid
eighties wind.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Yeah, Chicago's pretty hot in the summer. Oh yeah does it?

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
I know, like that wind factor.

Speaker 5 (01:06:38):
I am not.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
Ready, but the winter is like, don't go to Chicago
in the winter, don't don't.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Go to Ininlanta in the summer.

Speaker 3 (01:06:43):
Are doing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
It's true? That's true.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Wow, one day, one day, one day, Joey, Well, we'll
work it out.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
But in the meantime, where can the goodlisseners? Fine to?

Speaker 3 (01:06:55):
You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at not
prat that's p A t t n O T p
r A t t.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
Also, if, since it is Pride Month, if you're.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Interested in more cool queer storytelling and queer history told
by the people that lived it, you should check out
but We Loved, which is a new podcast from the
Outspoken Network that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
I am working on. So nice.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
You should do that anyways. Yeah, yeah, oh that's awesome.
We'd love to hear more about that. Yeah, well, uh, listeners,
go check out Joey on all of those platforms if
you haven't already. If you would like to contact us,
you can or emails Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

(01:07:42):
You can find us on Twitter at most of a podcast,
or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff Never told you.
We're on YouTube. We have a t polk store, We
have a book you can get wherever you get your books.
Thanks as always too our super producer Christine, our executive producer,
Maya and Urk and Trip Joey Oh, thank you and
thanks to you for listening.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Steffan Never Told You is Prediction by Her Radio.

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
For more podcasts or my heart Radio, you can check
out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast or if you
listen to your favorite shows

Stuff Mom Never Told You News

Advertise With Us

Follow Us On

Hosts And Creators

Anney Reese

Anney Reese

Samantha McVey

Samantha McVey

Show Links

AboutRSSStore

Popular Podcasts

Who Killed JFK?

Who Killed JFK?

Who Killed JFK? For 60 years, we are still asking that question. In commemoration of the 60th anniversary of President John F. Kennedy's tragic assassination, legendary filmmaker Rob Reiner teams up with award-winning journalist Soledad O’Brien to tell the history of America’s greatest murder mystery. They interview CIA officials, medical experts, Pulitzer-prize winning journalists, eyewitnesses and a former Secret Service agent who, in 2023, came forward with groundbreaking new evidence. They dig deep into the layers of the 60-year-old question ‘Who Killed JFK?’, how that question has shaped America, and why it matters that we’re still asking it today.

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2024 iHeartMedia, Inc.