February 8, 2025 • 37 mins
Scam of the heart, and you're to blame, you give love a bad name! Romance scams can happen to anyone, and they've gone up during the pandemic. In this classic episode, Anney and Samantha unpack the numbers and emotional impact of romance scams, along with how they happen and how to avoid them.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'll Never told you, a production of iHeartRadio, and today
we're bringing back a classic on romance scams. I don't
know why, but I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
(00:28):
I've seen a lot of news about it, and it's
just been in my head. And especially because we've been
talking about how dating kind of looks for the younger
generation and how the technology is evolving. I'm just curious.
I think we're going to have to do a revisit
to this one soon.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Like just the different ideas and techniques. I sent you
that one where one brotary is literally like advocate for
your friend and they have to do powerpoints to try
to find them days and I'm like, what is this
millennial slash gen z melding point here?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Because what well, hopefully that's not a scam.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
But yeah, I'm just saying, we need to have a
whole conversation about this whole field because it could be
to your friend.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I did when you sent that to me. I laughed
at some of the things on there. I'm hoping it's
coming from a good place. But one of them said
Harlings constantly changes and I did laugh that was funny.
But yeah, we're gonna have to come back and do
a visit a revisit of this one. But in the meantime,
please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Nanny and
(01:43):
Samantha and welcome to Stefan. Never told you a protection
of iHeartRadio. So to start this one, Samantha, I have
a couple questions for you. One. In your time online dating,
do you feel like you came across a lot of
(02:04):
fake profiles or any kind of romantic scams.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I definitely came across fake profiles, a few of them,
and because of that and just in general of my mistrust,
if they were too good looking.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
I assumed it was fake and moved on.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
If they didn't have a lot of information, I assume
they were fake and moved on. Or or there's some
reason like they're trying to be sneaky, sneaky and cheating
and they don't want their partner to see them or
be caught. I've seen a lot of that than being
real trickster I've had. Of course, if they're also not
showing their face, that was a big no as well.
(02:41):
So I assume most of those were some type of lie,
yeah or falsehood.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's interesting. We're going to come back
to that and talk about that in this episode. Also,
like when you imagine someone who is the target of
a romance scam the stereotypical victim in your mind.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Well, it goes back and forth, because sometimes I've definitely
seen the hopeless woman duped, so a woman who has
left a lot of money being like somehow taken advantage of.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
So I've seen a thought.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Of that, But then also lately, like the fishing, like
a catfishing that I've seen, it looks like it goes
off to a lot of what I would say, nerdy men,
almost in cell level men. Oh wow, huh, I've seen
that as well. So it was like overly beautiful women
and their men are more likely to.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Believe that, right, Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So I feel like because today we're talking about romance
scams and it is a popular topic of conversation right now,
and I'm pretty sure there's a couple of shows on
Netflix that are coming out about it specifically, and I
think that our understanding of who I don't even want
to say, the stereotypical victim is because it's it's more
like it can happen any But I feel like for
(04:00):
a long time, my understanding was it was older usually
women who their husband had died and they didn't understand
the internet very well. Maybe right, they were very trusting,
but also I feel like I've seen a lot of the.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Almost like.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I hate to say this, but like the show is
kind of painting as in this person and usually in
my case, woman is pathetic and she's so like her
self esteem is so low, and it's this guy reaching
out to her, and then it's kind of played off
as a joke that she believed in, right, Yeah, and
she's these.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Tears those episodes of that or usually that becomes like death.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Somehow, or they get like, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Don't want like an as sexual assault thing happens of
some sort or like among those I've seen that, so
that's a little darker twist. I've watched a lot of
dark things apparently, you know, when it comes to like
elderly people in getting scammed, I do see it being
older women, but usually something to do with religion or real.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Estate, not necessarily romance.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So we might have come back to that because that's
what I've seen a lot of questions and phone scams.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, oh yeah, I mean there's so much, so much
to unpack here. I think it's interesting though that, like
as this has.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Become we've learned more about it.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I can think of several different versions I've seen of
this playing out in our popular media.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So, as I said, it can't happen to anybody.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
As we move into February, the month of love or
what did you call.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
It, Samantha, anti love?
Speaker 4 (05:36):
We're anti Valentine essentially.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, if you want to celebrate it.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I've had some good ones totally. Yeah, but yeah, we're
kind of a.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
We do a darker take on an over here, Yeah,
because we wanted to take this this look at a
not so happy aspect of love, as is our tradition,
and that being romance scams.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
And yes, as I said, they have been in.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
The news a lot lately, and there is a lot
of information out there about them, about how to recognize
them and prevent them specifically, and I will admit they
are a bigger problem than I thought they were.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Right, you know what I've seen recently, however, I've seen
more of like when I say romance scams, maybe like
just trickery in my head. So this is a little
different is when a partner is trying to see if
their partner will cheat, and it's typically women who are
reaching out to other women to ask to try to
start something with their man. Wow in these general relationships,
(06:34):
and I've seen a lot more of that. Like I've
seen a few where the men ask the men, but
it's typically women have been asking women.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
So I don't know if this is like an actual thing.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Or they've just like I somehow got on it on
the social media side.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Of it and saw a lot more.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I know there's a few popular women who are investigators
who've done this, and typically there have been several moments
where that woman who has hired this other woman, that
woman gets mad at the person they hired.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
It works, that's a whole different conversation. But I've seen
that recently.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I did not know about.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
That's interesting because I know, like again going back to stereotypes,
and I think there were I'm not sure what the
numbers are now, but last time I looked into this, men,
like we talked about in cyberstalking, are much more likely
to try to investigate that their woman is cheating. Are
assume they're cheating, right, I would like to revisit that.
That is interesting, okay, right, given.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
And I have seen where the men, if they've been
rejected on a site, tries to go back and find
that woman as a different person, so catfishing them, but's
stalking them and trying to get a second chance or
try to find out if they're dating other people, like
why they work up with them or something like that.
So it's been really and that one's like a little
(07:48):
more stalkersh.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yet I've seen so I've never experienced that to my knowledge. Yeah, no, definitely,
because I'm very picky about who I'll engage with online.
So I've never experienced that online. But I have experienced
I know, I've told this story a million times, but
it just sticks out with me. Of this guy at
a club back when I went to the club, I
(08:11):
told him, like I flat out if we you know,
we try so many different strategies as women to reject
that men that won't make them madden, and you know
there's so.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Much victim blaming in it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So one time I did, I just flat out told
this guy, I know, because I didn't want him to
I tried to do it in a nice way, but
I said, like, no, I'm not interested, and he shouted
in my face it's because I'm not brad Pit, isn't.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
It feels like he's.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
The type of guy who online is probably trying that now,
but it's got like a Brad Pit esque.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I got that weird online thing where a dude messaged
me but his message wasn't a like, wasn't necessarily a question.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
And this is the first communication I've ever had from him.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
And he immediately says, I would like to go out
with you, but I know women like you don't date
like men like me, and you only want the perfect
white guy, So I don't even know why I'm trying.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
That was its opener, and I was like, wow, well
you seem angry, so I don't. There's nothing about this
is redeeming.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
I don't know what you wanted, right, but yes, now
I'm definitely ignoring you. Right.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
That feels like, oh, like one of the worst examples
I've ever heard of somebody trying to prepare themselves for
rejection but hoping that you might be like, No, I
would never I'm not like those other girls.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
That's just terrible.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Is that does that work? I got to know it
does that?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Like I really wish I could have asked to do
but I just didn't even want to.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
I'm like, work for you, because why would you do this?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
What self perspective? Woman would actually like respond to this?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Well, that's what is that called.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
There's a whole joke about it what we do in
the shadow than the TV show where it's like, oh,
they have a fun word for it, but it's nega.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
So basically oh yeah, yeah, yeah, is like go and
go up to this woman.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Women love it when you go up and are mean
to them and she'll be so attracted.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
But he was.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Amazing himself, So I don't like that.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I don't think it's nagging necessarily because it's typically like oh, yeah,
I bet you're you're.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Kind of cute, but you're not excuted as her like
that level. But like he did not do that.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
It just was like, you're not going to choose me
because I'm not wide enough for you, And I was like,
what is happening?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting and terrible I want to
say a strategy.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
But I do.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I feel like he thought like maybe you would want
to make him feel better and also want to prove
to him.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
No, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Saying it's a good strategy. I'm just saying that's what
he was doing.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, there's so many things to the like online dating
and romance and everything that it's.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Flipped as wild. This world is wild.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
It is, it is, and it's unfortunate that we have
to look out for these things romance scams, because I
do want to put in here, as we've already discussed
in this there are a lot of jokes about romance scams,
but they've left people heartbroken and robbed, and when you
think about it.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
It's pretty mean. Like it's mean.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
And we've talked about grooming on social media and past
episodes and this that's highly related to what we're talking about.
It's also related to what we talked about in cybers talking.
So yeah, just to put that out there that there
are people who have suffered from these things that we're
talking about.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Let's start with a definition because we love that from
the FBI's website. Quote, Romance scams occur when a criminal
adopts a fake online identity to gain a victim's affection
and trust. The scammer then uses the illusion of a
romantic or close relationship to manipulate and or steal from
the victim.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
And the FBI goes on to specify that the people
behind romance scams are often experts. They're often con artists,
and they frequently operate on dating apps and social media.
The con artist in question will work to endear themselves
to the target by building trust with conversation and interaction,
with promises of meeting in person and perhaps marriage promises
(12:25):
that notably never come to fruition. They utilize fake dating
and social media profiles and what is often called catfishing.
Then comes the ask for money, often to cover a
surprise medical fee or a legal fee that they promise
to pay back but never do. They often claim that
they are on building projects outside of the United States
or whatever country the target is located in. Scammers frequently
(12:49):
claim to be in the military too, or working on
an oil rig, or a doctor with an international organization,
So basically, they're like traveling a lot not near you,
and they often ask for money to pay for a
plane ticket or other travel expenses, surgery or other medical expenses,
custom fees, to pay off gambling debts, or to pay
for travel documents. They usually ask the target to wire
(13:11):
money or to pay with a reload and or gift card.
Because they are anonymous and pretty much impossible to reverse.
It's not a one time thing either. They keep asking
for more until the scam is up or the money
is gone right again.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I feel like these are so many, either like criminal
minds or all these little episodes that we see. So
romance scams are up in recent years, which is really sad.
In twenty twenty, the FTC reported three hundred and four
million dollars in losses due to romance scams, a fifty
percent increase from twenty nineteen. The reported money loss to
(13:46):
these scams has increased by six times since twenty fifteen.
The FTC also reported that while there were eleven two
hundred and thirty five cases reported in twenty sixteen, there
were fifty two, five.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Hundred and ninety three and twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Who Yeah, that's a big number. That is a huge number,
and a part of this is yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
So. Numbers from twenty twenty one indicate that three out
of ten Americans have used a dating website, including one
out of five Americans between the ages of fifty to
sixty four. However, while the popular stereotype is the one
of older folks becoming victims to these types of scams,
anyone can be a target.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
I just want to reiterate that anyone can be a target.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
In fact, a recent survey came out indicating that Gen
Z is at the highest risk of these types of scams.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Oh, I wonder why, let's find out.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
So from CNBC quote, the number of individuals ages twenty
or younger members of the Generation Z or gen Z
who has grown up on spartphones and the Internet reporting
they are victims of cyber fraud has served one hundred
and fifty six percent over the last three years. And
this is according to the study from Social Catfish, an
online identity verification service. Maybe we need to get onto
(15:01):
this type of services just to get scammed. That compares
to one hundred and twelve percent growth during the same
time among people age sixty or older, the group with
the next fastest scam growth. So maybe it is a
social media and smartphones that's making that difference. However, the
overall financial toll is higher for older folks. The average
(15:24):
loss from a romantic scam for those over seventy is
four hundred and seventy five dollars compared to the twenty
five hundred dollars across all age groups.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yeah, that's pretty significant.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, in twenty ten, romance scams accounting for one of
the top ten most costly scams for those sixty and older.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
We're going to talk about this a bit later, but
I do want to also know a listener several years ago,
so I hope you're still listening, suggested this topic and
they said how devastating it was to watch I believe
their mother just not believe that this wasn't a real
person and having those conversations because it's just so painful
(16:07):
to tell someone like, no, this isn't a real person,
cares about you and they're just asking for money, And
how devastating it was for her as someone who knew
a person who's being affected by this.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
So it's not just like one person.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
It often has ripple effects for people in their support group.
According to a detective interviewed by the Irish Times, when
it comes to romance scams, the vast majority of victims
are women. Many are separated or widowed, and in their
late fifties or their sixties. They might have family, but
maybe living alone. They have maybe had some wine in
the evening, so their inhibitions are down. They are not, however,
(16:42):
what I would describe as vulnerable. They are nive, for sure,
but they tend to be very well educated professionals and
would hate to be described as vulnerable. More than seventy
percent of these caught up in romance scams are women.
What happens with men is different. Not long after contact
is made, a man might get a video from the
woman he believes he is communicating with, and in it
she is performing a sex act, so he sends something
similar back, and then it quickly becomes a case of blackmail,
(17:06):
which we talked about a little bit in our Cyberstocking episode.
In the words of Paul C. Dwyer, chief executive of
cyber Risk International, quote, the romance scams are huge. They
try and find a lonely woman and get her to
fall in love with a handsome profile picture of a guy.
It's not like there's one bad actor with one victim.
These guys might have forty or fifty women on the go,
(17:27):
and they keep all the plate spinning, so it becomes
extremely lucrative. They have their cubicle. That's their job, and
they go in every day and will keep files and
techniques as they work away to get somebody. What they're
selling is love and hope, and you have these lonely
people buying it because they're falling for the dream.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Oh makes me sad.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And these scams often overlap with other criminal activities. International
criminal gangs often use dating apps to launder illegally obtained
funds through bank accounts of unsuspecting folks, some who have
even been arrested for it, like they didn't realize their
bank accounts were being used in this way and they
got arrested. Going back to our recent episode on cryptocurrency,
(18:10):
the FBI has recently raised the flag about the rise
of cryptocurrency scams, especially since there's so much confusion around
how crypto works and the whole get rich quick element
that kind of surrounds crypto just like romance scams. Crypto
scams have served in recent years. From October twenty twenty
(18:31):
to March twenty twenty one, the FTC received about six
eight hundred complaints compared to five hundred and seventy from
the same period the year prior. Reported losses grew by
ten times to eighty million dollars. Sometimes crypto scammers are
also romance scammers. According to the FBI, in the first
seven months of twenty twenty one, they received one eight
(18:52):
hundred reports of crypto focused romance scams, equaling upwards of
one hundred and thirty three million dollars of losses. Some
of these are going yeah after thirty after forty or
fifty women at the same time, so that's a lot
and many experts think the pandemic exacerbated all of this.
(19:12):
Online dating was the only acceptable dating and online interaction
in general was how we were interacting because.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
A pandemic so and people who are lonely.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
A lot of people have been and are lonely during
this pandemic.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Right, the US isn't the only country seeing such arise
from the Guardian quote. According to Action Fraud, the UK's
reporting center for fraud and cybercrime, eight hundred and sixty
three cases were reported to the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau
or NFIB, between November twenty twenty and October twenty twenty one,
up from six nine hundred and sixty eight the previous year.
(19:48):
With the total losses for the past year amounting to
almost ninety two million pounds. Daters who started online relationships
between Christmas and Valentine's Day were the most susceptible, y'all,
so be careful, with nine hundred and one reports recorded
in March twenty twenty one. But they also note due
to the shame and stigma around this issue, the.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Numbers are most likely low.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, I'm thinking it's going to be very underreported because
they don't want to talk about how they had gotten
scammed for being lonely. If that's the case, which is
not the case all the time. It's just really got
caught up with whoever you thought would be your dream person.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Hm. And you know, now that I'm thinking about this,
I want to know if this is a real thing, listeners.
I think I talked about it in a recent episode,
but there's a fan fiction I was reading about hiring
a fake someone to pretend to be your significant partner
during the holiday, specifically so your family wouldn't ask you
(20:46):
any questions.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I mean, all we talk about escorts because I know
there are actual escorts who can be a service and
are legal because it's not part of sex work, which
we're not saying is a bad thing anyway. But I
know that that has a big stipulation within the federal laws,
especially like if it's in magazines and such like. There's
a lot of things, but I think there's escort services
in essentially saying we will escort, we will be a
(21:10):
partner for you physically, not necessarily sexually.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
I feel like those yeah, that might be along those lines.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Interesting. I believe in this fan fiction it was a
Craigslist ad but mensic and women. Yeah, well future a
little bitlist is a little bit, a little bit more
like that's going to be a murderer. Be careful, well
this is I mean, I guess you could get caught
(21:38):
up in That would have been the dark ending of
that story, because in it, of course they actually do
fall in love, but the dark end would have been
it's a scam all along bt doves.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I just saw that Netflix has a tender. It's called
Tender something I've already forgotten. I'm sure our listeners are
going to know, you know, about a serial killer I
think who met people through online dating.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, that's when I was researching this. That popped up
and I was like, well, wow, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Slightly different, but okay, yes, yeah, So back to some numbers.
According to the Irish Times quote in twenty nineteen, about
four hundred thousand euros was lost by love sick Irish people.
With the country in lockdown for much of twenty twenty,
and people isolated it more lonely than before, that figure
jumped to more than one million euros. Again, that's only
what was reported. It's become such an issue that some
(22:25):
money sending agencies like Western Union are now looking for
instances of frauds since they can be held liable. I
personally think they should have been doing that all at all.
But and I know we've made this point already, but
I just want to drive it home. It's really cruel.
This whole thing is really cruol. It's really manipulative. A
lot of times it weaponizes empathy. I read so many
(22:47):
accounts from people who had gone through this and lost
all of their money and felt just so terrible and
ashamed by it. And like one example, the scammer and
told people that their daughter had died and they needed
help with the funeral, or that they were being held
(23:08):
hostage by loan sharks and tortured, like really intense, emotionally
manipulative things, and then after reporting over three five hundred
pounds of loss to a romantic scam, a target who
was interviewed named Anna, said, I had spent the year
completely unstable, trapped in this abusive cycle. I'd become obsessed
(23:30):
with preventing his pain. It felt like losing a husband
that I loved with every inch of my heart and soul.
I was never going to get any closure or say goodbye.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Ouch, you know, the whole being held hostage and all
that thing that really like, there's so many crime shows,
like entertaining crime shows. I don't mean like you know,
like SVU level of crime shows that I see that
on a wonder like does it really happen?
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Has that really happened? Do we have cases on.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
That oh worre like it's not a scam, it's actually
a thing. Yeah, I'm sure it has. I would imagine
it's very low number, right.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Well, because I know we've definitely seen cases and not
too many, but some cases where they have two families
and they have two different like the men tend to
be two different men, and it's always men who have
the families, of course, and like I've never seen any
cases where it's women. Leading double lives, and there could
be many reasons to that, but I've seen that that's
(24:32):
a whole different scam in itself.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Yeah, yep, having a second family.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So another woman said, I feel like I've been incredibly stupid,
but he was so convincing. I am heartbroken and unstable
to trust my own judgment. My confidence has been shattered.
I'm still lonely, but I don't know how I'll ever
be able to trust anyone again. As much as I
want to forget it, I can't. I struggle to get
out of bed to go to work, and there's been
many times I you want to end my life. I
(24:58):
can't understand how this has happened to me, and I
feel like there was a couple of cases where catfishing
has ended with someone dying by suicide.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just that's why I really thought,
we really thought it was important to put this in here,
because I do feel like it's the butt of a
lot of jokes and we kind of assume whoever fell
for it must not be that bright.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
But that's really just not the case.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
And I my heart goes out to anybody who's gone
through this because I can't imagine believing like just because
it was a scam doesn't mean the emotions weren't real,
right and you didn't feel that way, And it's tragic
to me that somebody, I mean, everything is complex and nuance,
(25:43):
but it's tragic. But like that is getting played on
of that like willingness to love someone, which is already
pretty scary, exciting and scary as being turned into this
like painful thing where people feel like they can't trust
anybody again or they can't love again.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Sad.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
When asked about this, trauma therapist Olivia James said many
of us have wounds around our age, appearance, and past
relationships that make us susceptible to someone promising love. It's
tempting to ignore doubts and see what we want to see.
Sometimes people have an inkling, but the fear of abandonment
is too much. Romance fraud is just a more extreme
version of something that lots of us have experienced. For
(26:38):
some people, there's an element of rescue fantasy too. If
they can help this person, they'll be able to live
out there happily. Ever after romance James went on to
also say that this type of crime can lead to PTSD,
long term mental health conditions, and financial instability. People feel
completely destabilized, they stop trusting themselves or anyone else. We
(27:00):
need connections with others, so being betrayed by someone you
thought was your soulmate is incredibly hard. She stresses too,
that the pressure to find the one can.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Make all of this worse, Right, That's what I was thinking, Like,
we've been taught so often that we need a mate,
that we need that one other that complete us, and
that especially for women, that this we are not ever
going to be whole unless we are in a couple,
in a family, and that we are the head, the
mother of the household. So there's definitely a layer of
(27:30):
social implications to this as well, and the pressures for
many of people and trying to find that perfect romance
and being told that was our value to begin with.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
And I think especially for women when it comes to
and I hate this is true, but we all have
a relative or somebody as told as or your biological
clock is sticking right, So it's like men don't have
the same pressure of like the age bearing down on
them that women do, where we're like, oh, I have
to by this age or no one would ever want
(28:03):
to be with me. And that makes me mad too,
because I feel like it's weaponizing, like if a woman
in this case feels like, oh I might never find
anybody I'm older and someone is reaching out, like it's
playing on that vulnerability too.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Of right, well, well, like I hate it.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
I hate it, but I think some people find their
worth in that, like worth in people being interested in them, right,
which again, yes we're taught that, but yeah, it just
makes me.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
It makes me mad.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Well, I mean, that's one of the bigod things. I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Maybe it's the world I'm traveling in and so therefore
men are being called out, So that's what I'm seeing.
But as of late, there's been an upsurch from what
I've been viewing on men calling out women and saying that, hey,
you need to know your worth and your worth goes
down when you get older. You need to know that
you're not as valuable because you've had children, or you're
not as lovable because you've gained weight, or like.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
All of these things.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
And I've seen that narrative being used a lot, especially
in the podcasting world, whereas all men and I want
to punch them in their.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Decks as they deserve it.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
But that's been a thing that's been coming out and
during this time of people talking about trying to be
more feminists, the way that they rage back and say no,
you need to be put back into your place is
using age, using being single, or using having children and
fat shaming as a way to weaponize against women to
say that you're not of value if you're not here,
and so what you get is what you deserve, whether
(29:24):
it is actually what we deserve, because we deserve a
lot more than what they are saying obviously, right, that
was a little bit cyclical on that one.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yeah, you should be so lucky to get my attention, right.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
And that's this level of like women, if you really
want to be seen as the perfect queen, which that's
been a push back too, because women are actually coming
to the point of valuing themselves and so a lot
of the misogynistic, patriarchal people who have been thriving in
that life are pissed, and so this is how they're
pushing back because that's the only thing they know and
(29:55):
has been used for so long that this is what
they've gotten in their back pocket. And I feel like
this absolutely totally pushes this narrative to having victims like
this and having people who have gone through this, and
also changes the narrative of it's their fault because they
weren't smart enough to see that they're.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Not worth it.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
And it's such a big pile that has been handed
to us and continues to be handed to us. And
I don't want to punch people in the dicks, like
I said, but anyway, so it's important to note also
while most romance scams these days are online.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
They can and do happen in person and oftentimes on phone.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
So I've seen that, like they are going to land
lines and using that as a way it's scamming as well.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And we do a lot of
the articles we found researching this were about prevention, and
it was very That's what kind of gave me at
least the scope or the problem of the size of it,
because like every state in the United States had one,
like the FBI has their main one, and then like
every state as one and countries have them. Or here's
(30:57):
how to avoid it, here's how to recognize it. But
we did want to share some of those with you.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Right, so if someone you've met online needs your bank
account to deposit money, that's a big red flag. Then
there's a high chance of using it for nefarious activities.
As a reminder, also, I think there was a big
conversation about like things like Venmo and any of those.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Little cash apps.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
I believe cash app maybe a little more safe than
Venmo and PayPal. I'm not for sure that there's this
debate about it and who uses what, but I know
Venmo has been criticized because that's linked to your bank
account and a lot of people have been using it
to get money from them and then like linking in
and thinking that this is for you know, oh my right.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Boo needs this for gas. But there's a lot of
things to that.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Too, right, Yeah, I mean that's another episode we've done
in the past of like financial abuse, and that's also
a piece of this. But yeah, the FBI has a
few tips on how to avoid becoming a victim to
your romance scam, so be mindful of what you post online.
Scammers can take this information to manipulate you privatize all
your settings. I know this isn't really related, but I
(32:03):
just went through because I saw I saw an article
about how like your TV is spying on you.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
And I went through and made.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Well, I have my Alexa here yea and they the
newer versions have actually cameras on it, and I had
to turn that off because I was like, what is this?
As well as the sidewalk sharing and apparently you can
just people passing by can get on it somehow, and
I'm like, why would I want this?
Speaker 4 (32:28):
And that's a feature they were very proud of. Still confused,
but why I would want that?
Speaker 3 (32:32):
By Samsung Watch that I know that has a lot
to like not necessarily video, but like it can still
link to my bank accounts, it got, it's got. You
can put a card on here if I wanted to
to pay with it, I know that could be a
link to it too.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
But yeah, really weird.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah that's what we are.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, so try to There's plenty of articles about like
if you here's what you need to do on your phone,
your TV, like everything, So look that up, do your research,
see if the person in question has any as an
online presence. Search the picture, the name, the bio, and
I know that feels kind of cyberstockery, but it's.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Kind of the unfortunate reality.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And I think a lot of us do that when
we're online dating anyway, especially women, because we've just been told, yeah,
you might be murdered.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Remember images can be super imposed over faces and video calls,
so sometimes you will actually have a video call somebody
and it's not actually their face. Also, remember that many
scammers work as a team. As they introduce you to
their friends, the friends are in on it too, so right,
that's also unfortunate because I always felt like, oh, here
(33:37):
are the friends.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
But yeah, yeah, that was almost a tell tell.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
But to be fair, I'd also be like, Okay, you
can tell a lot by other friends, and if they're shady,
they are probably shady. So asking questions and be cautious,
that's always good. Don't rush into anything and don't let
yourself be rushed. And I do want to do a
future episode about love bombing because that's also one of
the big signs that we need to talk about.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
But like why why you?
Speaker 3 (33:58):
And this, yeah, going into if something's too good to
be true, it probably is. If someone pressures you to
leaving a dating app or social media app soon after
contact in order to communicate directly, be wary if they
shower you with I guess a lot of affection of
emotion very quickly.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Be worried.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
This is called love bombing. Like I said, I do
want to come back to it and the basis of
this because I was like what, Because it seems to
be linked to a lot of abusive relationships in general?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Also be wary if the individual tries to isolate you
from your support group, or if they ask for inappropriate
photos or financial information that could be used to blackmail you.
If promises of meeting in person are repeatedly broken, ask
why don't send money to anyone you've only interacted with online,
even if you made first contact. Do not let your
guard down if they are overly flirtatious or complimentary, or
(34:51):
if your picture looks like that of a model.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Ask questions.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
If you suspect you are the target of a romance
scam starts, have a few tips. Stop communicating with the person.
Immediately talk to somebody you trust about your concerns.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Do a search with job titled like US Army scammer
or oil rig scammer to see if other people have
similar stories. Search the profile of this picture too, Google
is your friend on this? I will google everyone.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
As a social worker.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I came close to be like, I need to do
a psychological evaluation on all my dates.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I kind of.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Anyway, if you are sent money or a gift card,
you can report it. You can also report scams to
the FTC here in the US, I do know with
a crypto and NFT. It's only become recent that federal
investigators have come involved because of the scamming.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
There was a huge one we.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Didn't talk about because it was led by a dude
who scammed a giant network of people, got millions and
then like did a pseudonym and no one could catch them.
Really really funky. And then there are support groups and
resources out there that you can get onto, and I'm
betting there's a lot of group of women who understand
and this and what has happened to them.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's I know there's a lot of
isolating and shame around it, but there are resources out
there that are great, and there are people who are
open with their stories. And I always feel like we
say this and it makes me sad to know that
there are so many that have experienced this, but I'm
glad that there's support happening right with people who have
(36:26):
experienced it. And also this is kind of outside the
scope of this episode.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
This whole cycles.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
It's very complicated and nuanced and like who is doing
the scamming and why they are doing the scamming, and
it's worth discussing that part of this piece as well.
But yeah, that's outside of this this episode for now.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
But with that said, if you are happy val I
don't know.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Anti happy anti Valentine's Day.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Everyone, Yeah, stay safe online, uh, and we love you.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
We love you, It's true and we.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Also love hearing from you. So if you would like
to contact us, you can. You can email us a
stephanda mom Steph at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram
at Stuff I've Never Told You.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Thanks. It's always to our super producer.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Christina, so much love to you.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yes, and thanks to you for listening, Steph, I Never
told you. The protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
from my heart Radio, is it the heart radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to favorite shows
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'll Never told you, a production of iHeartRadio, and today
we're bringing back a classic on romance scams. I don't
know why, but I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
(00:28):
I've seen a lot of news about it, and it's
just been in my head. And especially because we've been
talking about how dating kind of looks for the younger
generation and how the technology is evolving. I'm just curious.
I think we're going to have to do a revisit
to this one soon.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Like just the different ideas and techniques. I sent you
that one where one brotary is literally like advocate for
your friend and they have to do powerpoints to try
to find them days and I'm like, what is this
millennial slash gen z melding point here?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Because what well, hopefully that's not a scam.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
But yeah, I'm just saying, we need to have a
whole conversation about this whole field because it could be
to your friend.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I did when you sent that to me. I laughed
at some of the things on there. I'm hoping it's
coming from a good place. But one of them said
Harlings constantly changes and I did laugh that was funny.
But yeah, we're gonna have to come back and do
a visit a revisit of this one. But in the meantime,
please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Nanny and
(01:43):
Samantha and welcome to Stefan. Never told you a protection
of iHeartRadio. So to start this one, Samantha, I have
a couple questions for you. One. In your time online dating,
do you feel like you came across a lot of
(02:04):
fake profiles or any kind of romantic scams.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
I definitely came across fake profiles, a few of them,
and because of that and just in general of my mistrust,
if they were too good looking.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
I assumed it was fake and moved on.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
If they didn't have a lot of information, I assume
they were fake and moved on. Or or there's some
reason like they're trying to be sneaky, sneaky and cheating
and they don't want their partner to see them or
be caught. I've seen a lot of that than being
real trickster I've had. Of course, if they're also not
showing their face, that was a big no as well.
(02:41):
So I assume most of those were some type of lie,
yeah or falsehood.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's interesting. We're going to come back
to that and talk about that in this episode. Also,
like when you imagine someone who is the target of
a romance scam the stereotypical victim in your mind.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Well, it goes back and forth, because sometimes I've definitely
seen the hopeless woman duped, so a woman who has
left a lot of money being like somehow taken advantage of.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
So I've seen a thought.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Of that, But then also lately, like the fishing, like
a catfishing that I've seen, it looks like it goes
off to a lot of what I would say, nerdy men,
almost in cell level men. Oh wow, huh, I've seen
that as well. So it was like overly beautiful women
and their men are more likely to.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Believe that, right, Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So I feel like because today we're talking about romance
scams and it is a popular topic of conversation right now,
and I'm pretty sure there's a couple of shows on
Netflix that are coming out about it specifically, and I
think that our understanding of who I don't even want
to say, the stereotypical victim is because it's it's more
like it can happen any But I feel like for
(04:00):
a long time, my understanding was it was older usually
women who their husband had died and they didn't understand
the internet very well. Maybe right, they were very trusting,
but also I feel like I've seen a lot of the.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Almost like.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I hate to say this, but like the show is
kind of painting as in this person and usually in
my case, woman is pathetic and she's so like her
self esteem is so low, and it's this guy reaching
out to her, and then it's kind of played off
as a joke that she believed in, right, Yeah, and
she's these.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Tears those episodes of that or usually that becomes like death.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Somehow, or they get like, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Don't want like an as sexual assault thing happens of
some sort or like among those I've seen that, so
that's a little darker twist. I've watched a lot of
dark things apparently, you know, when it comes to like
elderly people in getting scammed, I do see it being
older women, but usually something to do with religion or real.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Estate, not necessarily romance.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
So we might have come back to that because that's
what I've seen a lot of questions and phone scams.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, oh yeah, I mean there's so much, so much
to unpack here. I think it's interesting though that, like
as this has.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Become we've learned more about it.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I can think of several different versions I've seen of
this playing out in our popular media.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So, as I said, it can't happen to anybody.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
As we move into February, the month of love or
what did you call.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
It, Samantha, anti love?
Speaker 4 (05:36):
We're anti Valentine essentially.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, if you want to celebrate it.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I've had some good ones totally. Yeah, but yeah, we're
kind of a.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
We do a darker take on an over here, Yeah,
because we wanted to take this this look at a
not so happy aspect of love, as is our tradition,
and that being romance scams.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
And yes, as I said, they have been in.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
The news a lot lately, and there is a lot
of information out there about them, about how to recognize
them and prevent them specifically, and I will admit they
are a bigger problem than I thought they were.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Right, you know what I've seen recently, however, I've seen
more of like when I say romance scams, maybe like
just trickery in my head. So this is a little
different is when a partner is trying to see if
their partner will cheat, and it's typically women who are
reaching out to other women to ask to try to
start something with their man. Wow in these general relationships,
(06:34):
and I've seen a lot more of that. Like I've
seen a few where the men ask the men, but
it's typically women have been asking women.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
So I don't know if this is like an actual thing.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Or they've just like I somehow got on it on
the social media side.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
Of it and saw a lot more.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I know there's a few popular women who are investigators
who've done this, and typically there have been several moments
where that woman who has hired this other woman, that
woman gets mad at the person they hired.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
It works, that's a whole different conversation. But I've seen
that recently.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I did not know about.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
That's interesting because I know, like again going back to stereotypes,
and I think there were I'm not sure what the
numbers are now, but last time I looked into this, men,
like we talked about in cyberstalking, are much more likely
to try to investigate that their woman is cheating. Are
assume they're cheating, right, I would like to revisit that.
That is interesting, okay, right, given.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
And I have seen where the men, if they've been
rejected on a site, tries to go back and find
that woman as a different person, so catfishing them, but's
stalking them and trying to get a second chance or
try to find out if they're dating other people, like
why they work up with them or something like that.
So it's been really and that one's like a little
(07:48):
more stalkersh.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yet I've seen so I've never experienced that to my knowledge. Yeah, no, definitely,
because I'm very picky about who I'll engage with online.
So I've never experienced that online. But I have experienced
I know, I've told this story a million times, but
it just sticks out with me. Of this guy at
a club back when I went to the club, I
(08:11):
told him, like I flat out if we you know,
we try so many different strategies as women to reject
that men that won't make them madden, and you know
there's so.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Much victim blaming in it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So one time I did, I just flat out told
this guy, I know, because I didn't want him to
I tried to do it in a nice way, but
I said, like, no, I'm not interested, and he shouted
in my face it's because I'm not brad Pit, isn't.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
It feels like he's.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
The type of guy who online is probably trying that now,
but it's got like a Brad Pit esque.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I got that weird online thing where a dude messaged
me but his message wasn't a like, wasn't necessarily a question.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
And this is the first communication I've ever had from him.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
And he immediately says, I would like to go out
with you, but I know women like you don't date
like men like me, and you only want the perfect
white guy, So I don't even know why I'm trying.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
That was its opener, and I was like, wow, well
you seem angry, so I don't. There's nothing about this
is redeeming.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
I don't know what you wanted, right, but yes, now
I'm definitely ignoring you. Right.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
That feels like, oh, like one of the worst examples
I've ever heard of somebody trying to prepare themselves for
rejection but hoping that you might be like, No, I
would never I'm not like those other girls.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
That's just terrible.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Is that does that work? I got to know it
does that?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Like I really wish I could have asked to do
but I just didn't even want to.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
I'm like, work for you, because why would you do this?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
What self perspective? Woman would actually like respond to this?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Right?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Well, that's what is that called.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
There's a whole joke about it what we do in
the shadow than the TV show where it's like, oh,
they have a fun word for it, but it's nega.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
So basically oh yeah, yeah, yeah, is like go and
go up to this woman.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Women love it when you go up and are mean
to them and she'll be so attracted.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
But he was.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Amazing himself, So I don't like that.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I don't think it's nagging necessarily because it's typically like oh, yeah,
I bet you're you're.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Kind of cute, but you're not excuted as her like
that level. But like he did not do that.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
It just was like, you're not going to choose me
because I'm not wide enough for you, And I was like,
what is happening?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting and terrible I want to
say a strategy.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
But I do.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I feel like he thought like maybe you would want
to make him feel better and also want to prove
to him.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
No, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Saying it's a good strategy. I'm just saying that's what
he was doing.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, there's so many things to the like online dating
and romance and everything that it's.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
Flipped as wild. This world is wild.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
It is, it is, and it's unfortunate that we have
to look out for these things romance scams, because I
do want to put in here, as we've already discussed
in this there are a lot of jokes about romance scams,
but they've left people heartbroken and robbed, and when you
think about it.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
It's pretty mean. Like it's mean.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
And we've talked about grooming on social media and past
episodes and this that's highly related to what we're talking about.
It's also related to what we talked about in cybers talking.
So yeah, just to put that out there that there
are people who have suffered from these things that we're
talking about.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Let's start with a definition because we love that from
the FBI's website. Quote, Romance scams occur when a criminal
adopts a fake online identity to gain a victim's affection
and trust. The scammer then uses the illusion of a
romantic or close relationship to manipulate and or steal from
the victim.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
And the FBI goes on to specify that the people
behind romance scams are often experts. They're often con artists,
and they frequently operate on dating apps and social media.
The con artist in question will work to endear themselves
to the target by building trust with conversation and interaction,
with promises of meeting in person and perhaps marriage promises
(12:25):
that notably never come to fruition. They utilize fake dating
and social media profiles and what is often called catfishing.
Then comes the ask for money, often to cover a
surprise medical fee or a legal fee that they promise
to pay back but never do. They often claim that
they are on building projects outside of the United States
or whatever country the target is located in. Scammers frequently
(12:49):
claim to be in the military too, or working on
an oil rig, or a doctor with an international organization,
So basically, they're like traveling a lot not near you,
and they often ask for money to pay for a
plane ticket or other travel expenses, surgery or other medical expenses,
custom fees, to pay off gambling debts, or to pay
for travel documents. They usually ask the target to wire
(13:11):
money or to pay with a reload and or gift card.
Because they are anonymous and pretty much impossible to reverse.
It's not a one time thing either. They keep asking
for more until the scam is up or the money
is gone right again.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I feel like these are so many, either like criminal
minds or all these little episodes that we see. So
romance scams are up in recent years, which is really sad.
In twenty twenty, the FTC reported three hundred and four
million dollars in losses due to romance scams, a fifty
percent increase from twenty nineteen. The reported money loss to
(13:46):
these scams has increased by six times since twenty fifteen.
The FTC also reported that while there were eleven two
hundred and thirty five cases reported in twenty sixteen, there
were fifty two, five.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Hundred and ninety three and twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Who Yeah, that's a big number. That is a huge number,
and a part of this is yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
So. Numbers from twenty twenty one indicate that three out
of ten Americans have used a dating website, including one
out of five Americans between the ages of fifty to
sixty four. However, while the popular stereotype is the one
of older folks becoming victims to these types of scams,
anyone can be a target.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
I just want to reiterate that anyone can be a target.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
In fact, a recent survey came out indicating that Gen
Z is at the highest risk of these types of scams.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Oh, I wonder why, let's find out.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
So from CNBC quote, the number of individuals ages twenty
or younger members of the Generation Z or gen Z
who has grown up on spartphones and the Internet reporting
they are victims of cyber fraud has served one hundred
and fifty six percent over the last three years. And
this is according to the study from Social Catfish, an
online identity verification service. Maybe we need to get onto
(15:01):
this type of services just to get scammed. That compares
to one hundred and twelve percent growth during the same
time among people age sixty or older, the group with
the next fastest scam growth. So maybe it is a
social media and smartphones that's making that difference. However, the
overall financial toll is higher for older folks. The average
(15:24):
loss from a romantic scam for those over seventy is
four hundred and seventy five dollars compared to the twenty
five hundred dollars across all age groups.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yeah, that's pretty significant.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, in twenty ten, romance scams accounting for one of
the top ten most costly scams for those sixty and older.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
We're going to talk about this a bit later, but
I do want to also know a listener several years ago,
so I hope you're still listening, suggested this topic and
they said how devastating it was to watch I believe
their mother just not believe that this wasn't a real
person and having those conversations because it's just so painful
(16:07):
to tell someone like, no, this isn't a real person,
cares about you and they're just asking for money, And
how devastating it was for her as someone who knew
a person who's being affected by this.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
So it's not just like one person.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
It often has ripple effects for people in their support group.
According to a detective interviewed by the Irish Times, when
it comes to romance scams, the vast majority of victims
are women. Many are separated or widowed, and in their
late fifties or their sixties. They might have family, but
maybe living alone. They have maybe had some wine in
the evening, so their inhibitions are down. They are not, however,
(16:42):
what I would describe as vulnerable. They are nive, for sure,
but they tend to be very well educated professionals and
would hate to be described as vulnerable. More than seventy
percent of these caught up in romance scams are women.
What happens with men is different. Not long after contact
is made, a man might get a video from the
woman he believes he is communicating with, and in it
she is performing a sex act, so he sends something
similar back, and then it quickly becomes a case of blackmail,
(17:06):
which we talked about a little bit in our Cyberstocking episode.
In the words of Paul C. Dwyer, chief executive of
cyber Risk International, quote, the romance scams are huge. They
try and find a lonely woman and get her to
fall in love with a handsome profile picture of a guy.
It's not like there's one bad actor with one victim.
These guys might have forty or fifty women on the go,
(17:27):
and they keep all the plate spinning, so it becomes
extremely lucrative. They have their cubicle. That's their job, and
they go in every day and will keep files and
techniques as they work away to get somebody. What they're
selling is love and hope, and you have these lonely
people buying it because they're falling for the dream.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Oh makes me sad.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And these scams often overlap with other criminal activities. International
criminal gangs often use dating apps to launder illegally obtained
funds through bank accounts of unsuspecting folks, some who have
even been arrested for it, like they didn't realize their
bank accounts were being used in this way and they
got arrested. Going back to our recent episode on cryptocurrency,
(18:10):
the FBI has recently raised the flag about the rise
of cryptocurrency scams, especially since there's so much confusion around
how crypto works and the whole get rich quick element
that kind of surrounds crypto just like romance scams. Crypto
scams have served in recent years. From October twenty twenty
(18:31):
to March twenty twenty one, the FTC received about six
eight hundred complaints compared to five hundred and seventy from
the same period the year prior. Reported losses grew by
ten times to eighty million dollars. Sometimes crypto scammers are
also romance scammers. According to the FBI, in the first
seven months of twenty twenty one, they received one eight
(18:52):
hundred reports of crypto focused romance scams, equaling upwards of
one hundred and thirty three million dollars of losses. Some
of these are going yeah after thirty after forty or
fifty women at the same time, so that's a lot
and many experts think the pandemic exacerbated all of this.
(19:12):
Online dating was the only acceptable dating and online interaction
in general was how we were interacting because.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
A pandemic so and people who are lonely.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
A lot of people have been and are lonely during
this pandemic.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Right, the US isn't the only country seeing such arise
from the Guardian quote. According to Action Fraud, the UK's
reporting center for fraud and cybercrime, eight hundred and sixty
three cases were reported to the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau
or NFIB, between November twenty twenty and October twenty twenty one,
up from six nine hundred and sixty eight the previous year.
(19:48):
With the total losses for the past year amounting to
almost ninety two million pounds. Daters who started online relationships
between Christmas and Valentine's Day were the most susceptible, y'all,
so be careful, with nine hundred and one reports recorded
in March twenty twenty one. But they also note due
to the shame and stigma around this issue, the.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
Numbers are most likely low.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, I'm thinking it's going to be very underreported because
they don't want to talk about how they had gotten
scammed for being lonely. If that's the case, which is
not the case all the time. It's just really got
caught up with whoever you thought would be your dream person.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Hm. And you know, now that I'm thinking about this,
I want to know if this is a real thing, listeners.
I think I talked about it in a recent episode,
but there's a fan fiction I was reading about hiring
a fake someone to pretend to be your significant partner
during the holiday, specifically so your family wouldn't ask you
(20:46):
any questions.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I mean, all we talk about escorts because I know
there are actual escorts who can be a service and
are legal because it's not part of sex work, which
we're not saying is a bad thing anyway. But I
know that that has a big stipulation within the federal laws,
especially like if it's in magazines and such like. There's
a lot of things, but I think there's escort services
in essentially saying we will escort, we will be a
(21:10):
partner for you physically, not necessarily sexually.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
I feel like those yeah, that might be along those lines.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Interesting. I believe in this fan fiction it was a
Craigslist ad but mensic and women. Yeah, well future a
little bitlist is a little bit, a little bit more
like that's going to be a murderer. Be careful, well
this is I mean, I guess you could get caught
(21:38):
up in That would have been the dark ending of
that story, because in it, of course they actually do
fall in love, but the dark end would have been
it's a scam all along bt doves.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I just saw that Netflix has a tender. It's called
Tender something I've already forgotten. I'm sure our listeners are
going to know, you know, about a serial killer I
think who met people through online dating.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, that's when I was researching this. That popped up
and I was like, well, wow, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Slightly different, but okay, yes, yeah, So back to some numbers.
According to the Irish Times quote in twenty nineteen, about
four hundred thousand euros was lost by love sick Irish people.
With the country in lockdown for much of twenty twenty,
and people isolated it more lonely than before, that figure
jumped to more than one million euros. Again, that's only
what was reported. It's become such an issue that some
(22:25):
money sending agencies like Western Union are now looking for
instances of frauds since they can be held liable. I
personally think they should have been doing that all at all.
But and I know we've made this point already, but
I just want to drive it home. It's really cruel.
This whole thing is really cruol. It's really manipulative. A
lot of times it weaponizes empathy. I read so many
(22:47):
accounts from people who had gone through this and lost
all of their money and felt just so terrible and
ashamed by it. And like one example, the scammer and
told people that their daughter had died and they needed
help with the funeral, or that they were being held
(23:08):
hostage by loan sharks and tortured, like really intense, emotionally
manipulative things, and then after reporting over three five hundred
pounds of loss to a romantic scam, a target who
was interviewed named Anna, said, I had spent the year
completely unstable, trapped in this abusive cycle. I'd become obsessed
(23:30):
with preventing his pain. It felt like losing a husband
that I loved with every inch of my heart and soul.
I was never going to get any closure or say goodbye.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Ouch, you know, the whole being held hostage and all
that thing that really like, there's so many crime shows,
like entertaining crime shows. I don't mean like you know,
like SVU level of crime shows that I see that
on a wonder like does it really happen?
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Has that really happened? Do we have cases on.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
That oh worre like it's not a scam, it's actually
a thing. Yeah, I'm sure it has. I would imagine
it's very low number, right.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Well, because I know we've definitely seen cases and not
too many, but some cases where they have two families
and they have two different like the men tend to
be two different men, and it's always men who have
the families, of course, and like I've never seen any
cases where it's women. Leading double lives, and there could
be many reasons to that, but I've seen that that's
(24:32):
a whole different scam in itself.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Yeah, yep, having a second family.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So another woman said, I feel like I've been incredibly stupid,
but he was so convincing. I am heartbroken and unstable
to trust my own judgment. My confidence has been shattered.
I'm still lonely, but I don't know how I'll ever
be able to trust anyone again. As much as I
want to forget it, I can't. I struggle to get
out of bed to go to work, and there's been
many times I you want to end my life. I
(24:58):
can't understand how this has happened to me, and I
feel like there was a couple of cases where catfishing
has ended with someone dying by suicide.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just that's why I really thought,
we really thought it was important to put this in here,
because I do feel like it's the butt of a
lot of jokes and we kind of assume whoever fell
for it must not be that bright.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
But that's really just not the case.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
And I my heart goes out to anybody who's gone
through this because I can't imagine believing like just because
it was a scam doesn't mean the emotions weren't real,
right and you didn't feel that way, And it's tragic
to me that somebody, I mean, everything is complex and nuance,
(25:43):
but it's tragic. But like that is getting played on
of that like willingness to love someone, which is already
pretty scary, exciting and scary as being turned into this
like painful thing where people feel like they can't trust
anybody again or they can't love again.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Sad.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
When asked about this, trauma therapist Olivia James said many
of us have wounds around our age, appearance, and past
relationships that make us susceptible to someone promising love. It's
tempting to ignore doubts and see what we want to see.
Sometimes people have an inkling, but the fear of abandonment
is too much. Romance fraud is just a more extreme
version of something that lots of us have experienced. For
(26:38):
some people, there's an element of rescue fantasy too. If
they can help this person, they'll be able to live
out there happily. Ever after romance James went on to
also say that this type of crime can lead to PTSD,
long term mental health conditions, and financial instability. People feel
completely destabilized, they stop trusting themselves or anyone else. We
(27:00):
need connections with others, so being betrayed by someone you
thought was your soulmate is incredibly hard. She stresses too,
that the pressure to find the one can.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Make all of this worse, Right, That's what I was thinking, Like,
we've been taught so often that we need a mate,
that we need that one other that complete us, and
that especially for women, that this we are not ever
going to be whole unless we are in a couple,
in a family, and that we are the head, the
mother of the household. So there's definitely a layer of
(27:30):
social implications to this as well, and the pressures for
many of people and trying to find that perfect romance
and being told that was our value to begin with.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
And I think especially for women when it comes to
and I hate this is true, but we all have
a relative or somebody as told as or your biological
clock is sticking right, So it's like men don't have
the same pressure of like the age bearing down on
them that women do, where we're like, oh, I have
to by this age or no one would ever want
(28:03):
to be with me. And that makes me mad too,
because I feel like it's weaponizing, like if a woman
in this case feels like, oh I might never find
anybody I'm older and someone is reaching out, like it's
playing on that vulnerability too.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Of right, well, well, like I hate it.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
I hate it, but I think some people find their
worth in that, like worth in people being interested in them, right,
which again, yes we're taught that, but yeah, it just
makes me.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
It makes me mad.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Well, I mean, that's one of the bigod things. I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Maybe it's the world I'm traveling in and so therefore
men are being called out, So that's what I'm seeing.
But as of late, there's been an upsurch from what
I've been viewing on men calling out women and saying that, hey,
you need to know your worth and your worth goes
down when you get older. You need to know that
you're not as valuable because you've had children, or you're
not as lovable because you've gained weight, or like.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
All of these things.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
And I've seen that narrative being used a lot, especially
in the podcasting world, whereas all men and I want
to punch them in their.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Decks as they deserve it.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
But that's been a thing that's been coming out and
during this time of people talking about trying to be
more feminists, the way that they rage back and say no,
you need to be put back into your place is
using age, using being single, or using having children and
fat shaming as a way to weaponize against women to
say that you're not of value if you're not here,
and so what you get is what you deserve, whether
(29:24):
it is actually what we deserve, because we deserve a
lot more than what they are saying obviously, right, that
was a little bit cyclical on that one.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yeah, you should be so lucky to get my attention, right.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
And that's this level of like women, if you really
want to be seen as the perfect queen, which that's
been a push back too, because women are actually coming
to the point of valuing themselves and so a lot
of the misogynistic, patriarchal people who have been thriving in
that life are pissed, and so this is how they're
pushing back because that's the only thing they know and
(29:55):
has been used for so long that this is what
they've gotten in their back pocket. And I feel like
this absolutely totally pushes this narrative to having victims like
this and having people who have gone through this, and
also changes the narrative of it's their fault because they
weren't smart enough to see that they're.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
Not worth it.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
And it's such a big pile that has been handed
to us and continues to be handed to us. And
I don't want to punch people in the dicks, like
I said, but anyway, so it's important to note also
while most romance scams these days are online.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
They can and do happen in person and oftentimes on phone.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
So I've seen that, like they are going to land
lines and using that as a way it's scamming as well.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And we do a lot of
the articles we found researching this were about prevention, and
it was very That's what kind of gave me at
least the scope or the problem of the size of it,
because like every state in the United States had one,
like the FBI has their main one, and then like
every state as one and countries have them. Or here's
(30:57):
how to avoid it, here's how to recognize it. But
we did want to share some of those with you.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Right, so if someone you've met online needs your bank
account to deposit money, that's a big red flag. Then
there's a high chance of using it for nefarious activities.
As a reminder, also, I think there was a big
conversation about like things like Venmo and any of those.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Little cash apps.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
I believe cash app maybe a little more safe than
Venmo and PayPal. I'm not for sure that there's this
debate about it and who uses what, but I know
Venmo has been criticized because that's linked to your bank
account and a lot of people have been using it
to get money from them and then like linking in
and thinking that this is for you know, oh my right.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Boo needs this for gas. But there's a lot of
things to that.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Too, right, Yeah, I mean that's another episode we've done
in the past of like financial abuse, and that's also
a piece of this. But yeah, the FBI has a
few tips on how to avoid becoming a victim to
your romance scam, so be mindful of what you post online.
Scammers can take this information to manipulate you privatize all
your settings. I know this isn't really related, but I
(32:03):
just went through because I saw I saw an article
about how like your TV is spying on you.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
And I went through and made.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Well, I have my Alexa here yea and they the
newer versions have actually cameras on it, and I had
to turn that off because I was like, what is this?
As well as the sidewalk sharing and apparently you can
just people passing by can get on it somehow, and
I'm like, why would I want this?
Speaker 4 (32:28):
And that's a feature they were very proud of. Still confused,
but why I would want that?
Speaker 3 (32:32):
By Samsung Watch that I know that has a lot
to like not necessarily video, but like it can still
link to my bank accounts, it got, it's got. You
can put a card on here if I wanted to
to pay with it, I know that could be a
link to it too.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
But yeah, really weird.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah that's what we are.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, so try to There's plenty of articles about like
if you here's what you need to do on your phone,
your TV, like everything, So look that up, do your research,
see if the person in question has any as an
online presence. Search the picture, the name, the bio, and
I know that feels kind of cyberstockery, but it's.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Kind of the unfortunate reality.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And I think a lot of us do that when
we're online dating anyway, especially women, because we've just been told, yeah,
you might be murdered.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Remember images can be super imposed over faces and video calls,
so sometimes you will actually have a video call somebody
and it's not actually their face. Also, remember that many
scammers work as a team. As they introduce you to
their friends, the friends are in on it too, so right,
that's also unfortunate because I always felt like, oh, here
(33:37):
are the friends.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
But yeah, yeah, that was almost a tell tell.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
But to be fair, I'd also be like, Okay, you
can tell a lot by other friends, and if they're shady,
they are probably shady. So asking questions and be cautious,
that's always good. Don't rush into anything and don't let
yourself be rushed. And I do want to do a
future episode about love bombing because that's also one of
the big signs that we need to talk about.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
But like why why you?
Speaker 3 (33:58):
And this, yeah, going into if something's too good to
be true, it probably is. If someone pressures you to
leaving a dating app or social media app soon after
contact in order to communicate directly, be wary if they
shower you with I guess a lot of affection of
emotion very quickly.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Be worried.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
This is called love bombing. Like I said, I do
want to come back to it and the basis of
this because I was like what, Because it seems to
be linked to a lot of abusive relationships in general?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Also be wary if the individual tries to isolate you
from your support group, or if they ask for inappropriate
photos or financial information that could be used to blackmail you.
If promises of meeting in person are repeatedly broken, ask
why don't send money to anyone you've only interacted with online,
even if you made first contact. Do not let your
guard down if they are overly flirtatious or complimentary, or
(34:51):
if your picture looks like that of a model.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Ask questions.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
If you suspect you are the target of a romance
scam starts, have a few tips. Stop communicating with the person.
Immediately talk to somebody you trust about your concerns.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Do a search with job titled like US Army scammer
or oil rig scammer to see if other people have
similar stories. Search the profile of this picture too, Google
is your friend on this? I will google everyone.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
As a social worker.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I came close to be like, I need to do
a psychological evaluation on all my dates.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I kind of.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
Anyway, if you are sent money or a gift card,
you can report it. You can also report scams to
the FTC here in the US, I do know with
a crypto and NFT. It's only become recent that federal
investigators have come involved because of the scamming.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
There was a huge one we.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Didn't talk about because it was led by a dude
who scammed a giant network of people, got millions and
then like did a pseudonym and no one could catch them.
Really really funky. And then there are support groups and
resources out there that you can get onto, and I'm
betting there's a lot of group of women who understand
and this and what has happened to them.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's I know there's a lot of
isolating and shame around it, but there are resources out
there that are great, and there are people who are
open with their stories. And I always feel like we
say this and it makes me sad to know that
there are so many that have experienced this, but I'm
glad that there's support happening right with people who have
(36:26):
experienced it. And also this is kind of outside the
scope of this episode.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
This whole cycles.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
It's very complicated and nuanced and like who is doing
the scamming and why they are doing the scamming, and
it's worth discussing that part of this piece as well.
But yeah, that's outside of this this episode for now.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
But with that said, if you are happy val I
don't know.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Anti happy anti Valentine's Day.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Everyone, Yeah, stay safe online, uh, and we love you.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
We love you, It's true and we.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Also love hearing from you. So if you would like
to contact us, you can. You can email us a
stephanda mom Steph at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram
at Stuff I've Never Told You.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Thanks. It's always to our super producer.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Christina, so much love to you.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yes, and thanks to you for listening, Steph, I Never
told you. The protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
from my heart Radio, is it the heart radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to favorite shows
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