April 20, 2026 • 46 mins
What's the cost of being perfect? Of losing yourself in the name of performance? Why do we applaud women's pain? The film Black Swan sets the stage for a conversation around the line between art and life, toxic mother-daughter relationships, mental health, symbolism, doppelgangers, ageism, orgasms, and the dangers of perfectionism. We discuss in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and smitha and what come stuff?
I never told you a production of iHeart Radio and
welcome to another classic. For this one, before we get
into it, I remember somebody called in about it and
(00:27):
said I should have given a content warning for disordered eating.
So I'm going to put that here now. One of
the reasons that this episode, which is about black Swan
and perfectionism, was on our mind was after our conversation
about things like ozempic, feeling that pressure to be quote
(00:49):
perfect in the way society tells you you are supposed
to be, and when that's harmful for you. I have
to say, after we did that episode about ozampic and
we go v and that kind of stuff, I was
hanging out with two people who have taken them uh,
(01:15):
and I'll just say.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It didn't go well.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm not saying that's everybody's experience, but I just thought
it was interesting after we had that conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Not doing well with it.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
It didn't. Yeah, it didn't go well.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Are they still on it though? One of the news.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, here you are, no, and I'm I'm here spilling
their business on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So I'm worse. No, no, no, no, I.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Think it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
These are the conversations that we need to have because
we don't know, Yeah, the effects. No one's really studying
that and coming with the full conversation because we don't
have enough information. So these are personal experiences. Are some
things that we should know honestly.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I'm sure, as we said, we
need to come back and do a whole episode on that,
but it is a huge topic and it is ongoing.
We'll do that in the future, but for now, please
enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Hey, this is Annie an smitha.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I'm not going to stuff I've ever told you a
production of IHET Radio. So it are continued really unplanned
streak of horror movies that involve dancing.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, as promised.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Today we are talking about Black Swan from twenty.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Ten, and yeah, we are doing a bit more.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Movies than we normally do this month. It's just because
we're such horror movie buffs. There's so many to talk about,
and I do think that a lot of times. As
I said that, the themes are really interesting and we're
talking about what it is we're afraid of, and particularly
when it comes to women. I saw this movie in
theaters in twenty ten when it came out, and this
(03:10):
was back when the theater near I was in college.
In the theater near me, every Friday, my roommate and
I would go and the tickets if your student costs
two dollars. So we just would see all kinds of
movies all the time, and we would do double features.
I saw this and King Speech this same night, and
(03:30):
then I will talk about it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
As we go through.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
But I have some very funny memories of seeing this
in theaters for the first time, because I think the
crowd was a bit so it was nominated for a
bunch of awards, right, So I think it was a
lot of older folks who were not anticipating the type.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Of movie an it was.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, that was unexpected.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
The reactions were very, very funny, particularly to one scene
I'm thinking of, right, But this was probably one of
the first movies I watched before, like I had started
on the podcast and before we you know, one day
would start our feminist movie Friday and like me and
my roommate my friend, we just sat and discussed it,
like what does it mean and what does this say?
And what about this and what are we saying about women?
(04:15):
About here and it was interesting a lot of the
different takes that we got. And then recently it's been
on my mind because a friend of mine said she
had watched a YouTube video about like the dangers of perfectionism,
which we've talked about and particularly for women, and it
used black Swan as kind of this academic example of
(04:39):
breaking down like look how deadly this is or can be.
And speaking of a quick sugar warning, we are going
to be talking about mental illness, abuse, death, potential suicide.
Uh yeah, but we're not gonna go too in depth
into any of that stuff. I know I've told this
(04:59):
very before, but this as a college student after I
saw this movie first sex stream I ever had me
the Cunas and Joseph.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Gordon love it like, I don't know why he showed up.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
He was not a black Swan.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
No, No, I don't know why he was there. I
don't think I've seen him in anything, just like it, lingering, waiting.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Just hanging out.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And then I went as Nina Sayersnlie Portman's character to
a Halloween party years and years ago and it was
a pretty i have to say red costume and it
was one of my first forays into making something and
I really liked how I turned out. I still have
it back here. Yeah, I really liked it. I also
have that thing Pete Jacket or the black Swan one.
(05:42):
Oh okay, okay, yeah, like the Ballerina the makeup, the
eye makeup was so cool.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Shout out to my friend Katie.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Also, at the time, I didn't realize that Sebastian stan
was in this, and that's only been a recent discovery
for me.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
But he is in this.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yes he is for blank second, yes.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Very quick, but he is there. And every time I
see it, it kind of throws me.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I don't know why.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
I'm like, oh rsh just man right. So this is
my first time watching it. I've never watched it, never
really been interested in it. I guess there's also questions
of like and we'll talk all about this later, but yeah,
there's a lot of things like huh okay. I also
have a strong feeling about Aeronofski in general, so it's like, eh,
why but yeah, interesting to watch for sure, And because
(06:31):
I've known about it too long, I think nothing surprised me.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, I mean I had twenty ten. I didn't realize
I've been that long.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Yeah, Wow, it's eleven years mm hm them and them
young selves nothing more. Still married to the ballet dancer though, right, oh,
that's where she met her husband.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I believe on this.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I have no idea, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
I think he's a ballet dancer and they've been together
since Black Swan.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Huh, Right, there you go.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Well, there you go, rand faction that I know, cele fact.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
All right, So let's begin with the movie. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
Black Swan is a twenty ten psychological horror movie directed
by Darren Aronowski.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
It follows a repressed.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Timid ballet dancer, Nina Sayers played by Natalie Portman. Sayers
is a perfectionist, constantly pushing herself to be perfect in
her dance. She lives with a very controlling and infantalizing mother,
who was a ballerina herself until she had to stop
because she had gotten pregnant with Nina.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yes, the ballet company Nina Dances for announces the retirement
of their prima Ballerina, Beth McIntyre played by Winona Ryder,
and that their new show is going to be Swan Lake,
so they hold auditions for the lead roles, roles that
require the dancer to embody both the innocent White Swan
and her evil twin, the Black Swan, as the artistic
(07:56):
director suspects. Nina nails the White Swan, but dancing as
the Black Swan is a real struggle for her and Jess.
As she is dancing the difficult coda for the Black Swan,
her concentration is broken when a new dancer from the
West Coast named Lily played by Mili Kunas loudly enters
and Nina stumbles and doesn't finish.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And that is the key. Remember this. She doesn't finish.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
By the way, I didn't realize what no no writer
was in this at all, and I was like, oh,
oh wow, there is.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Did I mention her?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
That's when you were like, oh, I've never seen that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I was like, what when we were talking about because
that's kind of the theme of you know, dying to
be young that we talked about this whole thing, because
it's implied that they have a conversation with other dancers,
and it's very implied that she's being forced to retire
because she's older, right, yes, because.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
It are too old.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
So the next day Nina goes to ask the director
for the part and this is after she steals some
things from another writer's character to try to become more
like her, which says a lot and hen that she
is the perfect casting for the white Swan, but that
he doesn't think she can dance the black Swan. To
(09:08):
Nina Ralentz about leave when the director asks her why
she got all dulled up, and that was all the
fights she was going to put into it. When he
forcibly kisses her, she bites him and quickly walks away.
The director is surprised by her actions, thinking her incapable
of doing something so mean and forceful. Nina is surprised
to learn she has been cast in the lead roles,
(09:30):
and the director tells her he wants to see more
of that bite. Yeah, definitely a lot of feelings in
this movie. So Nina attends a gala in her honor.
She has to schmoz and show off and pretend to
be the lead wearing all white to get donors excited
and willing to give them more money. When she is
(09:52):
in the bathroom, she picks up something protruding near her nail,
and it is once again interrupted by Lily, dressed in
all black, who is much more free and open and flirty.
She tries to convince Nina to stay and talk to her,
but Nina leaves. Later that night, she and the director
run into Beth, who was furious at being forced out
of the company. She accuses Nina of sucking his cock
(10:14):
to get this role, and Nina fires back, some of
us don't have to. And then before things can actually escalate,
the director intervenes. His nickname for Beth is Little Princess.
Seriously condescending, The director briefly takes Nina to his apartment,
asking her if she's a virgin, giving her the assignment
to go home and touch herself. Nina tries, but before
(10:36):
she can, she's interrupted because she sees that her mother
was sitting next to her bed.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Super awkward moment.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, so this is the moment when I saw in
theaters where the older clientele in the audience were aghast
and like laughing.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
We were all laughing and shock at all the reactions.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It was so great because it's like, I believe Clint
Manziel does a soundtrack so building like dramatic moment. She's
like really going at it with this masturbation thing, and
then it cuts to her mom right there and the
music goes like.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Bomb ball, Will I remember that moment so.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Clearly yeah, yes, once again does not get to finish
all right. So the next day, Nina finds out that
Beth was hit by a car. The director believes that
she did it on purpose to end her life. So
Nina gets these things, some of the best things that
she's taken, goes over to visit her in the hospital,
and Beth is unconscious at this moment, but Nina sees
(11:35):
that she broke both of her legs and will never
will probably never dance probably again, and she sort of
flees before Beth wakes up. Back at the studio, the
director asked that Nina observed Lily dancing the black Swan,
commenting that her movements are quote effortless and that she
quote isn't faking it. Lily shares a resemblance to Nina,
but has the qualities of the black Swan that Nina lacks.
(11:59):
Nina begins to see more and more doppelgangers of herself,
often a black Swan version of herself, more sensual and dark,
and she starts to find these scratches on her back.
The director grows more and more frustrated with her unsensual
performance as the black Swan at one rehearsal, asking it
the other dancer, would you that girl? No, no one would,
(12:22):
and then he kicks everybody out, and then he dances
with her, touching her and kissing her. Then he angrily
pulls away and says, that was mused seducing you when
it should be the other way around, and he leaves
her alone. They also laughed very hard at that part
because then she runs after him and says please, and
it's like a really awkward.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Moment, and the whole audience was like, oh no, what.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Lily comes to Nina's apartment to apologize for telling the
director to lay off Nina something that really annoyed Nina,
and calls the director to yell at her for whining,
and she asks Nina out for drinks. And this is
one of those like there's a paranoia throughout this movie.
But Nina's like, how did you know where I live?
And Lily says, I have my ways, but she just
got it from the secretary at the office. But anyway,
(13:08):
Nina ignores her mother's strong objections and agrees to go out.
Lily offers her ecstasy and she refuses, but Lily puts
some in her drink without Nina's knowledge, or like she
kind of sees it but doesn't do I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I guess she's just going along with the ride.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
At this point, the two drink and dance and flirt
with some men Sebastian Stan included. Nina kisses someone and
the hallucinations grow as they dance on the dance floor.
When they get back to Nina's place, a clearly still
inebriated Nina taunts her mom about the night out that
she's had, prompting her mom to hit her. Furious, Nina
takes Lily's hand and leaves her into a room, barricading
(13:46):
it from the inside and shouting at her mother to
leave her alone. Lily and Nina have sex, and the
black tattooed wings on Lee's backs start like shivering and moving,
but before Nina can finish, she hallucinates a version of
herself in the place of Lily, her mother's voice calling
her sweet girl, and a pillow being pressed over her face.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
So when she wakes up the next morning, Lily is
gone and the door is still barricaded from the inside.
Nina angrily tells her mother she's moving out because apparently
she woke up late and her mother would refuse to
wake her up. She finds Lily dancing the black scene
choreography and confronts her about last night, and Lily reveals
she doesn't sleep over unless she has a dick. She
(14:30):
actually says that teasing Nina for having a sex dream
about her. Nina's paranoia grows as she learns that Lily
has been made her alternate. She begs the director to
choose someone other than Lily, filling Lily's out to get her.
The director tries to assure her, telling Nina the only
one in her way is her, which is not wrong.
(14:50):
Her hallucinations increase and her behavior becomes more erratic. Someone
writes horror on the mirror in red lipstick. She throws
away her stuffed animals. She practices non stop, she's not eating.
She goes to see Beth in the hospital to return
her items, but Beth stabs herself.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
And the cheek with a nail file that she gets back.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
Really grows shouting nothing on repeat, morphing into Nina, and
all the images her mother has painted of her start
moving and Nina flees to her room and hallucinations, transforming
into a swan, hitting her head, passing out. The next
morning is opening night, and Nina's mother again didn't wake
her when she overslept, saying that she had called to
(15:31):
let them know that she was sick and would not
be coming. She tries to leave. Nina does, but her
mother has removed the door knob, and Nina attacks her
mother and recovers the knob, yelling at her about how
she was the one that never left the core.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
So, Nina arrives some Lincoln Center late and the director
tells her he had already asked Lily to fill in
for her, but Nina doesn't budge, asking him if he
needs another controversy after what happened to Beth. Impressed, the
director agrees to let her dance during the first act.
A hallucination midway leads to her being dropped as the
other dancers carrying her. Distraught, she goes to her dressing
(16:07):
room only to find Lily getting ready to dance the
Black Swan, taunting her about her failure and inability to
dance the black Swan. Lily transforms into Nina as the
black Swan, and the two fight so you got two Nina's,
you got your white Swan, your black Swan. And as
they're fighting, they break a mirror, a shard embedding into
the black Swan's stomach, only for her to transform back
(16:30):
into Lily, now bleeding on the floor. Panicked, Nina hides
her body in the bathroom and goes back to the
stage to dance the Black Swan, losing herself just as
the director kept pushing her to. Also, that's the common theme.
That's the name of the song that often plays is
called Lose Yourself. And she does this dance like flawlessly.
(16:52):
She grows feathers and wings as she does it. It's
very Yeah, you've probably seen that image before she kiss
This is the director backstage before returning to the stage
to thunderous applause star wars reference Natalie Portman. She goes
back to her dressing room to change back into the
white Swan, only to be interrupted by Lily, who congratulates
(17:15):
her on her performance and says she'll let her finish.
Nina frantically checks the bathroom, but there is nobody or blood.
She looks down and realizes the shard is in her
own stomach, standing her white uniform with blood still. She
returns to the stage to finish the performance, catching sight
of her mom watching her with tears before she takes
the final swan dive, the crowd giving her a standing ovation.
(17:39):
The director comes back to where she is laying on
the mattress, praising her performance and calling her little princess,
before he realizes she is bleeding, demanding someone to call
for help, and asking what she did. Nina says that
she was perfect, and the movie ends with the audience
chanting her name and clap yes so so much. I
(18:13):
could unfac here, but I did want to touch on, obviously,
the mental illness aspect, because I know, like a lot
of horror movies, it's pretty problematic trope, and a lot
of horror movies where that is used as sort of
the horror right, and it is clear like throughout you're
not sure what's real and what's not, and you're always questioning,
(18:33):
questioning that and questioning the validity of her interpretation of
things or her paranoia.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
That she is certainly.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Like needed help one, but was a perfectionist and could
not like let go of being perfect and pushing herself
to be perfect. But I also think It's interesting this
whole aspect of like art and the kind of expectations
(19:04):
around it, of expectations of sharing your pain or going
through pain, or being expected or even applauded when something
is painful, difficult mentally or physically. Because throughout there's also
just all his imagery of the damage on her body,
(19:25):
like constantly you see the like her toes or how
the thin she is, and that was I remember when
this came out me like Hunice gave an interview where
she said, like it looked good on screen, but it
was so unhealthy, like we were so thin. Yeah, and
just I remember reading about like their diets and how
(19:48):
much exercise they did. And it's weird when you watch
a movie that is about art and then like you've
learned about kind of the same thing that's happening. Like really,
as they're making the movie, it's kind of like, right,
our imitating life. I guess it's what they always say.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Natalie Portman was purposely getting smaller and smaller. Yeah, but
then there was this whole thing about her self harming.
So the scratches came on pretty early on, which is
when we see the interactions. It was I think even
before they started talking about doing black Swan, even though
they had been practicing it already. But like, yeah, and
that was self inflicted, but she was trying to pretend
(20:26):
that she wasn't self inflicted. But that was a habit
that her mom caught early on, knowing that that was
going to pull her to a breakdown because she mentioned
it is happening again.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Isn't that so something had happened previously. That made her.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
Think there's a lot to it, of course, but there
seemed to be an indication that this is a pattern
for her and it was part of her stress and
part of her reaction to stress.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yes, yeah, and it's I always kind of thought. And
again I'm someone who reads like perhaps too deeply into
things a lot, but I always kind of thought it
was like her feeling that she was imperfect manifesting like
on her on her body, and she because she is
really really hard on herself, and.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
In a strange way, that is.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
What holds her back a lot of times, is that
she's so afraid of not being perfect that she doesn't
it holds her back. But I, yeah, I did want
to talk about the relationship between the mother and daughter
and this because it's very toxic.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And back when I.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Was having that you know, early preset minty feminist movie
Friday conversation in college with my friends, one of the
things I thought was the most interesting was one of
my friends was like, well, obviously there was some sexual
abuse that happened.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I was like, what that is not what I picked
up on.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
But it is very like I feel like it's a
very infantilizing, like she's trying to keep her in her
little girl state, like her room is, you know, in
shades of pink.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
It's very childish.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
She has all these stuffed animals in there, a lot
of their like her mom calls her all the time
and calls the secretary of complaining about stuff at the
ballet place for Nina all the time, and there's this
She's just very controlling and very protective and that narrative
of you know, I had to She even says at
(22:16):
one point, you know, like I had to give up
my career because of you. And I think feeling that
guilt and seeing kind of Nina Sayers and Ali Portman's
character go from defending Beth and saying like, you know,
you can dance into you know, Fontaine dance into her
forties or whatever, and then at the end she's saying,
(22:39):
you know you were old, Bobby, like it didn't matter
that I was born, it was too late for you,
and that whole scene where she's sort of replacing Beth,
and in the back of her mind she must know like,
one day this is my moment, but one day someone
will a.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Younger will replace me as well.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
But all let's say, I think there's a lot of
resentment in their mother daughter relationship, right.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
I think there is also the conversation of like, she
saw herself and so wanted Natalie to succeed, but then
when she saw her succeed, she was passing her and
leaving her behind. So there was this rebread and needed
to be needed. So that's all she knew at that point,
so she wanted to push her to that point so.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
That she could be successful.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
So I thought she was going to be that controlling
mother that you see oftentimes when they poured their own
livelihoods and expectations into the child. But then it flipped
real quick when she's like, oh, she's getting there. But
I also think part of her paranoia blew up to
making her mom the enemy. There was a lot of
bad things, and her mom was actually caring for her.
She really was like trying to stop her from doing
(23:44):
all these bad things to herself in a really negative way.
It was still toxic the way she was trying to
do it, but she's trying to save her daughter's life,
so she knew she was going to die.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
It's that's fazing too.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, now, I it was just complicated. It was a
complex relationship because she was definitely going up at it
in a very unhealthy way. She has that entire room
of just like paintings of Nina, and it just feels
like at the part where she hits Nina, it's because
she said she had sex with two men, and so
that felt to me like she.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Was like, oh, you're gonna make the same mistake, right
I did, even though it's implied that she it was
like maybe this director fellow not the same guy, but
like somebody in that position at the ballet place who
got her pregnant and was like you're fired goodbye. Right. Yeah,
But definitely there was a vibe of.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Not wanting Nina to make the same mistakes, but also
wanting to be very in controlling, not wanting her to
surpass her, like you said, because she'll she'll say these
comments that are very like biting when it's almost like
she's like, look, I know you try, you work so hard,
you're so good, but you're never gonna get beyond this
and that's just where you are, and that's fine, Nina.
(24:58):
But Nina's like, no, I got to push myself. I
got to push myself. I got to pish myself.
Speaker 5 (25:03):
Right. It was a really backheaded way of trying to
slow her down and being healthy, it seemed. Again, there
are some moments that I was like, did that actually
happen or did so? Was she actually in the audience
or was she not? Because she got her hand crushed
twice by her Did that happen? Or was that in
our house? Like which part was the actual mother of
(25:25):
what we were seeing?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I always thought she was there, But you're right, it's
so much of it is destabilizing in the reality. And
then there's also that scene that it kind of relates
to what we've been talking about lately, but where she
Nina finds out she gets the part. She's like so
happy and calls her mom and she comes home and
her mom has this cake and Nina's like no, no, no, no, no, no, can't.
(25:49):
It's too big, it's too big. And then her mom
is like, oh, it's garbage. It like goes to throw
it away, and then Nina's like, oh, okay, no it,
I'll eat it.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
But just moments of that of.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Being like really controlling, dependent on each other, very unhealthy way.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Right for sure, Like it was one of those moments
of like, okay, she's not eating, but then she just
pitched a bet what what?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So that bost of those.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Things like, yeah, you do want her to eat a
slice caaed exactly, but at the same time, you don't
want the mother to force her and make her feel
guilty and gaslighting her to doing these things.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I also did want to talk
about I feel like we talk about this all the time,
but this movie is very much like The Madonna and
whoror The Good Girl the Bad Girl. You've got your good, sweet,
innocent white Swan. It was timid and virginal, described as virginal,
and then you've got the black Swan who is seen
as like sensual and much more like free, you know,
(26:47):
live and there. I mean, there's one scene in this
where because Lily is clearly like the black Swan embodiment.
She's I was watching it last night, even though I
really don't need to because I've seen this a million.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Times, but I loved it.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
But Mila Cutas is like rosspart who is the sorcerer,
a dressed all in black that casts a spell. At
the beginning, she's sort of this person that keeps catching
Nina's attention. And then at the scene where she is
like hovering over Nina's shoulder like she's the devil on
her shoulder. But there's this scene where there they go
(27:27):
out to the restaurant and Nalie Portman, Nina gets, you know,
like a salad, Emila Cunas gets a burger and it's
like extra cheese and it is rare, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Like, this is cool girl. This is the cool girl
trope right right exactly.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
She's also the one that gets the guy and then
shuts down the waiter.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yes, yes, like it's very very flirty and just painted
as like everything is you know, easy and light and
she's you know, fun and willing to live like and
Nina next to hers just like so repressed and closed off.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
And yeah, Lily keeps.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Telling her live a little and she is, I mean,
Nina is very repressed. But like if we're looking at
like the symbolism of what's going on, then essentially it is, yeah,
you can not be this versional all white white swan
or this very sexual black swan who.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
All the men want to be with. Apparently, even though like.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
When he was like, would you that girl and he's
talking about Ali Port were like, uh, all right, dude,
I don't know what I think about. But there's also
a scene where there's just a man masturbating on the subway,
like an old man, and he's looking at her. And
every time I see that scene, I'm like, I'm not
sure what I meant to take from this other than
(28:55):
like she's extremely uncomfortable in her kind of image and
how people perceive.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Her as being one way.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
But you would be, anybody would be. That's a crime.
That's absolutely a crime.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
So to me, this is one of those moments of
Aeronofsky making a shock value demoralizing women, and I know
that's the point. He literally wanted to talk about how
women are the mean to these subjects of whether it's
for us being the virgin or being a whore, like
you can't be either, or you are the overbearing mother,
which we've seen a lot, and or the mother who
(29:29):
can't protect their children. Like those were his kind of
his themes. I've only seen two of his films, so
I guess maybe I'm just generalizing, but because of what
I know of his kind of personality, what he's been
accused of, and then what I know of mother, and
then coming back to see this, which is one of
the ones that made him a big name, coming back.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
To see this, I was like, yeah, there it is exactly.
I think. Nothing was shocking to.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Me because of these are the expectations of Aeronovsky. These
are the expectations of kind of how he uses his women,
his own movies, how he uses women in real life.
So to me, none of that and I say this
in real life as in like what I've read about him,
even in his past relationships and his you know, all
(30:12):
of those things that I'm like, Okay, he is that
director that I would be very much afraid to have
anybody tell me how it was to work with him
because of those demands, and again, like I know part
of that was because he pushed them because he wanted
to see this level of angst and depravity.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Because it was what he was trying to convey.
Speaker 5 (30:34):
Again, this goes back to and we probably have a
larger conversation of types like sex scenes and abuse scenes
and how far should we go in the name of art?
How far should a woman be pushed in the name
of art? And this is one of those prime examples
of that of what we're pushing women to be. And again,
Mila Kunez, I love that she came out with like
(30:56):
this is bad. We went through something really horrible to
make it through this film. But yeah, So Natalie Portman
won the Academy Awards for this role. She won it
as the Best Leading Actress in a Drama, And I
get that this is such a big deal in where
she did, and I'm sure she's very proud of this moment.
(31:17):
But that set level of where are we pushing these artists,
which is the same thing that he was. It was
very meta in that he was kind of accusing the
ballet industry of abusing their women, but in actuality, he
did the same thing for this movie. So I feel like,
to me, like seems like the masturbation scene is literally
to put back into perspective of yes, how innocent she is,
(31:40):
and oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
It almost to.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
The point that, yes, we're supposed to feel creepy about it,
but also normalize it as if you should expect it
for this to happen. She should have expected it as
this beautiful young dancer on public transportation that an old
man is going to masturbate to her. Like it's and again,
like I said, I could be stretching that to like
angry as the why do we have to go to
these links for us to be successful? Us being women
(32:06):
and being taken seriously? And that's kind of that level.
Not gonna lie and I think we're gonna talk about
it in a minute, But like I felt like the
same scene with and I get that was a point,
but the sex thing between Amla Kunos and Natalie Portman
felt like it was for the mel gaze more so
than the movie.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Mm hmm, well yeah, And that's interesting because I, like.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I said, I had my first sex dream after that
I turned on. But now that I'm like older, it
is kind of like another example of crevating, and crevating
is really complicated. We talked about it in a whole episode.
You can look at it but.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I was I was kind of like, let them get
together even though it was very unhealthy, right, But I
did want to talk about what you were just discussing.
Is this uneven power dynamic between especially in this case,
the male director of the vallet and Nally Portman specifically
(33:02):
I mean Nina, but all all the ballet dancers really,
but in this case her and just has so many
instances of like him abusing his position in the name
of art, like you were talking about, like really going
too far, but it being for the art, and it
is because Aeronofsky is That's kind of what Mother was about,
(33:25):
is like, you know, men taking women who are their
muses and putting them through some to make the art
that they'll be credited for, awarded for, and then throwing
away that, you know, traumatized woman who was their muse.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Right, So it is. It is weird.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
And sometimes you see a movie and you're like, or
I may books because every time I read a Stephen.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
King book, I'm like, so this is you, Stephen King,
this is your.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
But yeah, it's not good if I'm like, oh, are
you like vibing with this ballet is art director? Right? Yeah,
(34:17):
So this whole movie was apparently kind of inspired by
the quote shadowy world of understudies and doppelgangers and kind
of taking that and then turning it into a psychological
horror movie. But also yeah about agism and this whole
(34:38):
just idea of getting replaced, which I thought was interesting
because as you watch it and Nina is having hallucinations
and paranoia, you are unsure of like, Okay, I mean,
the understudy is kind of there to replace you, But
how much is this is paranoia?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
How much of it is Lily actually trying to sabotage you?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Right?
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Hmmm?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
At what points was she really there and was she
really like to me?
Speaker 5 (35:09):
I Will noticed when Lily shows up to the apartment,
the mother doesn't acknowledge her. The mother doesn't see her
the entire time, the mother doesn't talk to her.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So I'm wondering if.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
She was actually showed up as opposed to maybe like
she went out with her, and they did go out,
but she never showed up Like. I wondered both of
those things because I purposely watched the mom's reaction. She
never acknowledges as if she was there. Yeah, and I
see her growing concern when she's talking about So it
could be that she's growing concerned because she's leaving the house,
(35:42):
or she's strong concerned because she's having an imaginary conversation
with no one there.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah, I always like upon after the movie is done.
The first time, I thought that she had been there,
but I think, yeah, she wasn't there. The way it
shot is like Lily is kind of like over her shoulder, yes,
and seeing the lines with her as she says them.
So I don't think she was there, but it is
you know, all these things that you've got to question,
(36:08):
and there's a lot of like elements of gaslighting throughout
where you're kind of I can't tell how much of
it is gaslighting and how much of it is something
did or did not happen.
Speaker 5 (36:20):
I'm a hallucination right Well, to be fair, the original
Beth was thinking that the entire time that now Impartment
Nina's character was coming after her, and she didn't want
her to be the like I don't know if maybe
this was a rerun of what happened to the person
before her, but it kind of was that same insinuation
that you're trying to be me, you're trying to replace me,
(36:41):
and she kind of was because she stole her to
look like her.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Yeah, and then at the end when she goes to
visit death at the hospital, Nina's like, I.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Understand now she's out to get me.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
She's trying to get me, and that's like, you stole
my things, right, and then it devolves from there.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Okay, But I did.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Want to talk about this because back in my when
I first saw this movie, I thought that the whole
thing was about the female orgasm.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Okay, interesting, yes.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Because and you know we're gonna use some language. Is
not totally uh.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I guess the problematic is problematic and how we think
about orgasms and how sex works and orgasms don't have
to be the end all be all, but that is
how we discuss them a lot. But throughout the movie,
there's so many lines where it's like, just let her finish,
lose yourself, and it's like constantly, every time she's on
the verge of a breakthrough of losing herself of an orgasm,
(37:43):
something happens she's interrupted.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
And so I.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Thought the first time I saw this, I thought it
was about the fear of the female orgasm, because when
she finally does finish, she does and ors very that
at the very least, right, and it's definitely like, maybe
that's not what the whole meaning is, or maybe I
was reading too much into it, but that is the
(38:10):
theme throughout, is that she never gets to she's repressed
and she never gets to have this sexual experience of
sexual orgasm.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
But it doesn't she finished with me lacunas. No, but
she's not thought she did.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Mm hmmm, nope, because since she they were like on
the urge, the edge, I guess, and then she looks
up and it's her own face and then the pillow
in her face, and so she does not.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Plus she probably wasn't well, who knows what was happening
at that point, if she was masturbating her.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Cab scene too.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yes, I'm assuming that was a hallucination as well.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
Right right, m my a subject as well. Guy, I
would not have gone there. That was not my thoughts.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
That's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
See, this is what I love about when you have
these conversations with friends and there's like feminism involved.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I'm like, I think these people who involved in this
would be afraid lady having an orgasm.
Speaker 5 (39:16):
My thought was that a woman could not be fully human.
That was my whole thing until like she gave everything
up of herself and then sacrificed yourself and then you
could be credited as human.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Mm hmm, Like, yeah, are either just any value the
art Yeah, of having to really put your your health
physical and mental health on the line, And.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
I guess I would include not having orgasms.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I could. I mean, it's just so funny.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
That's why I wanted to talk about this for so
long because I was so adamant about it, and this
was before I really you know, I was I was
learning more and more about feminism and how we talk
about these kinds of things. But I'm just surprised that
I was so strongly of the opinion at this point
that that's what it was about. And when I say, like,
(40:09):
it's problematic in terms of you know, as we've discussed
in a lot of recent episodes, it's the orgasm doesn't
have to be the end or the the you know,
the thing. But a lot of the music when she's
like masturbating and you know, almost there is building like
it's like leading up to this, which does make sense,
but that also gives like the narrative of Jess Letter
(40:31):
finish like and that is the end all, which it
doesn't have to be. But I remember I was like
shouting that at the screen at just let her finish
the whole reason I want to talk about this obviously,
there's a lot of like themes that I have thought about.
It'll change the way you watch it.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
It's more of like, I see where your head's at, Annie,
I see what your hel's at.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I mean again, the first extream I ever had after
this movie, So maybe my head was in a very
specific place at this point in time.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yeah, hey, you do you? Yes, well let's speak to
you how it needs to speak to you.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Yes, you know, I appreciate that, Samantha. I will say, like.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
The time when this came out, I don't think it
was still pretty and it still is pretty risque, even
though you know it really shouldn't be. But to show
a woman masturbating that was like the first instance I
had seen it, And.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
I'm sure it's even more shocking because it was Natalie Portman, Like,
there's so many things to who she is as an
individual that like having again, this is very much her role,
Like to me, yes, this is so is suited for
her from jump from being that playing innocent being very
like all of these things, even though even as a child,
she never was a child actor, Like we know this.
(41:49):
Her first role was really really deep and dark and
a fantastic role, but like, oh, this should have been
for an adult, right, But there's no way any other
child like she really pulled it off as a child
in these roles. But at the same time, you still
have her as an innocent, young, all American sweet girl.
So having her masturbate as a timid almost herself as
(42:10):
almost what we would expect of her, Like it's a
character for her.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
To do that is shocking in itself.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah, And I remember also at this time that now
you're making me analyze all of my stuff that was
going on.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
But I just bought my first vibrator. I had just
learned about masturbation.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
I feel like there's a whole awakening that ties to
this movie for you.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I think so. I had never thought about it in
this way. Thank you say so.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
At the time when it came out, I don't think
i'd ever seen anything like that.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I was even like, is that, how are you mastur rate?
I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
People were like no, But I don't think I've seen
like a sex scene between women or if I had.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Not like that.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Yeah, clearly it stuck with me. And this is what
I at the time. I was like, a orgasm, that's
what you.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
Took from it? Got it?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Again, Yeah, I think that's a lot to say in itself.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
I feel like you're judging me, But it's all.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Right, you're not judging you at all.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
Because I was like, huh, and I think you told
me this before and it didn't click, and then watching
it and I'm like, I still don't get it, but okay,
get it.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
I do get it.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Mm hm.
Speaker 5 (43:24):
I felt like that was like that would have been
never the conclusion I had come to.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Then again, I have a lot more.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
I was already tainted by so many previous conversations about
this movie in general, so I was already very aware
of kind of some of the things that were floating
out there in conversation to this movie.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Not your conversation that was new what I have perceived.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Yeah, and I will say, like, if this was a
different podcast, we'd go more into it. But there was
also controversy about how much dancing Nlie Portman did do
actually do versus what they said she actually did, And
then austar around the costuming and who got credit for
the costuming. But it seems very complicated, right. It seems
(44:12):
like a lot of hears say I don't want to
I'm not coming out on anybody's side.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
I'm just saying I know that that exists.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
So yes, and jose FYI. Yes.
Speaker 5 (44:22):
So she married Benjamin Millipede, who is a French ballet dancer,
and he was the choreographer. Oh interesting, he played David Moreau.
So I don't know, I don't know. I think that's
her partner in the movie. Oh yes, this is how
she met her husband.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
All right, Well, yeah, I mean I could keep going
on and on because I just have so many thoughts
about so much of this stuff in this movie, and
just also the pressure for women to feel perfect and
the pressure to put up with stuff we really shouldn't
have to put up with because that's where the industry was.
(45:02):
I mean, pretty soon after this, the ballet industry did
have their whole me too movement. I mean I guess
a couple of years, but still like they underwent that
as well. And uh, there's just a lot about, yeah,
the art that goes in into this and what we
expect of women, but otherwise, if I keep going, we'll
(45:24):
never stop. Yes, I did also, but you know, briefly
want to say, I think it's interesting that the dichotomy
of the white swan, black swan, the madonna, the whore
like you get praised but also penalized for being the
sweet girl, the innocent, the virginal one, but people like
the black swan better because she's flirty and fun. I
(45:47):
don't know, I find it interesting that there's like punishments
involved in both if you stray out of your box,
but also judgments involved in both.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Yeah, right, lots of things.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Lots well, I'm so glad we finally got to discuss
this because it has been since twenty.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Ten, been over my mind apparently.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
But as always, listeners, if you have a suggestion for
a movie, a book, a topic, anything, please contact us.
You can email at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia
dot com. You can find us on Instagram at stuff
I Never Told You or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast.
Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina, thank you,
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
You production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
(46:35):
is It the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or where you
listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and smitha and what come stuff?
I never told you a production of iHeart Radio and
welcome to another classic. For this one, before we get
into it, I remember somebody called in about it and
(00:27):
said I should have given a content warning for disordered eating.
So I'm going to put that here now. One of
the reasons that this episode, which is about black Swan
and perfectionism, was on our mind was after our conversation
about things like ozempic, feeling that pressure to be quote
(00:49):
perfect in the way society tells you you are supposed
to be, and when that's harmful for you. I have
to say, after we did that episode about ozampic and
we go v and that kind of stuff, I was
hanging out with two people who have taken them uh,
(01:15):
and I'll just say.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It didn't go well.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm not saying that's everybody's experience, but I just thought
it was interesting after we had that conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Not doing well with it.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
It didn't. Yeah, it didn't go well.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Are they still on it though? One of the news.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, here you are, no, and I'm I'm here spilling
their business on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So I'm worse. No, no, no, no, I.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Think it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
These are the conversations that we need to have because
we don't know, Yeah, the effects. No one's really studying
that and coming with the full conversation because we don't
have enough information. So these are personal experiences. Are some
things that we should know honestly.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I'm sure, as we said, we
need to come back and do a whole episode on that,
but it is a huge topic and it is ongoing.
We'll do that in the future, but for now, please
enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Hey, this is Annie an smitha.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I'm not going to stuff I've ever told you a
production of IHET Radio. So it are continued really unplanned
streak of horror movies that involve dancing.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, as promised.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Today we are talking about Black Swan from twenty.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Ten, and yeah, we are doing a bit more.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Movies than we normally do this month. It's just because
we're such horror movie buffs. There's so many to talk about,
and I do think that a lot of times. As
I said that, the themes are really interesting and we're
talking about what it is we're afraid of, and particularly
when it comes to women. I saw this movie in
theaters in twenty ten when it came out, and this
(03:10):
was back when the theater near I was in college.
In the theater near me, every Friday, my roommate and
I would go and the tickets if your student costs
two dollars. So we just would see all kinds of
movies all the time, and we would do double features.
I saw this and King Speech this same night, and
(03:30):
then I will talk about it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
As we go through.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
But I have some very funny memories of seeing this
in theaters for the first time, because I think the
crowd was a bit so it was nominated for a
bunch of awards, right, So I think it was a
lot of older folks who were not anticipating the type.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Of movie an it was.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, that was unexpected.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
The reactions were very, very funny, particularly to one scene
I'm thinking of, right, But this was probably one of
the first movies I watched before, like I had started
on the podcast and before we you know, one day
would start our feminist movie Friday and like me and
my roommate my friend, we just sat and discussed it,
like what does it mean and what does this say?
And what about this and what are we saying about women?
(04:15):
About here and it was interesting a lot of the
different takes that we got. And then recently it's been
on my mind because a friend of mine said she
had watched a YouTube video about like the dangers of perfectionism,
which we've talked about and particularly for women, and it
used black Swan as kind of this academic example of
(04:39):
breaking down like look how deadly this is or can be.
And speaking of a quick sugar warning, we are going
to be talking about mental illness, abuse, death, potential suicide.
Uh yeah, but we're not gonna go too in depth
into any of that stuff. I know I've told this
(04:59):
very before, but this as a college student after I
saw this movie first sex stream I ever had me
the Cunas and Joseph.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Gordon love it like, I don't know why he showed up.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
He was not a black Swan.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
No, No, I don't know why he was there. I
don't think I've seen him in anything, just like it, lingering, waiting.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Just hanging out.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And then I went as Nina Sayersnlie Portman's character to
a Halloween party years and years ago and it was
a pretty i have to say red costume and it
was one of my first forays into making something and
I really liked how I turned out. I still have
it back here. Yeah, I really liked it. I also
have that thing Pete Jacket or the black Swan one.
(05:42):
Oh okay, okay, yeah, like the Ballerina the makeup, the
eye makeup was so cool.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Shout out to my friend Katie.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Also, at the time, I didn't realize that Sebastian stan
was in this, and that's only been a recent discovery
for me.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
But he is in this.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yes he is for blank second, yes.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Very quick, but he is there. And every time I
see it, it kind of throws me.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I don't know why.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
I'm like, oh rsh just man right. So this is
my first time watching it. I've never watched it, never
really been interested in it. I guess there's also questions
of like and we'll talk all about this later, but yeah,
there's a lot of things like huh okay. I also
have a strong feeling about Aeronofski in general, so it's like, eh,
why but yeah, interesting to watch for sure, And because
(06:31):
I've known about it too long, I think nothing surprised me.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, I mean I had twenty ten. I didn't realize
I've been that long.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
Yeah, Wow, it's eleven years mm hm them and them
young selves nothing more. Still married to the ballet dancer though, right, oh,
that's where she met her husband.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I believe on this.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I have no idea, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
I think he's a ballet dancer and they've been together
since Black Swan.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Huh, Right, there you go.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Well, there you go, rand faction that I know, cele fact.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
All right, So let's begin with the movie. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
Black Swan is a twenty ten psychological horror movie directed
by Darren Aronowski.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
It follows a repressed.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Timid ballet dancer, Nina Sayers played by Natalie Portman. Sayers
is a perfectionist, constantly pushing herself to be perfect in
her dance. She lives with a very controlling and infantalizing mother,
who was a ballerina herself until she had to stop
because she had gotten pregnant with Nina.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yes, the ballet company Nina Dances for announces the retirement
of their prima Ballerina, Beth McIntyre played by Winona Ryder,
and that their new show is going to be Swan Lake,
so they hold auditions for the lead roles, roles that
require the dancer to embody both the innocent White Swan
and her evil twin, the Black Swan, as the artistic
(07:56):
director suspects. Nina nails the White Swan, but dancing as
the Black Swan is a real struggle for her and Jess.
As she is dancing the difficult coda for the Black Swan,
her concentration is broken when a new dancer from the
West Coast named Lily played by Mili Kunas loudly enters
and Nina stumbles and doesn't finish.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And that is the key. Remember this. She doesn't finish.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
By the way, I didn't realize what no no writer
was in this at all, and I was like, oh,
oh wow, there is.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Did I mention her?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
That's when you were like, oh, I've never seen that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I was like, what when we were talking about because
that's kind of the theme of you know, dying to
be young that we talked about this whole thing, because
it's implied that they have a conversation with other dancers,
and it's very implied that she's being forced to retire
because she's older, right, yes, because.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
It are too old.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
So the next day Nina goes to ask the director
for the part and this is after she steals some
things from another writer's character to try to become more
like her, which says a lot and hen that she
is the perfect casting for the white Swan, but that
he doesn't think she can dance the black Swan. To
(09:08):
Nina Ralentz about leave when the director asks her why
she got all dulled up, and that was all the
fights she was going to put into it. When he
forcibly kisses her, she bites him and quickly walks away.
The director is surprised by her actions, thinking her incapable
of doing something so mean and forceful. Nina is surprised
to learn she has been cast in the lead roles,
(09:30):
and the director tells her he wants to see more
of that bite. Yeah, definitely a lot of feelings in
this movie. So Nina attends a gala in her honor.
She has to schmoz and show off and pretend to
be the lead wearing all white to get donors excited
and willing to give them more money. When she is
(09:52):
in the bathroom, she picks up something protruding near her nail,
and it is once again interrupted by Lily, dressed in
all black, who is much more free and open and flirty.
She tries to convince Nina to stay and talk to her,
but Nina leaves. Later that night, she and the director
run into Beth, who was furious at being forced out
of the company. She accuses Nina of sucking his cock
(10:14):
to get this role, and Nina fires back, some of
us don't have to. And then before things can actually escalate,
the director intervenes. His nickname for Beth is Little Princess.
Seriously condescending, The director briefly takes Nina to his apartment,
asking her if she's a virgin, giving her the assignment
to go home and touch herself. Nina tries, but before
(10:36):
she can, she's interrupted because she sees that her mother
was sitting next to her bed.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Super awkward moment.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, so this is the moment when I saw in
theaters where the older clientele in the audience were aghast
and like laughing.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
We were all laughing and shock at all the reactions.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It was so great because it's like, I believe Clint
Manziel does a soundtrack so building like dramatic moment. She's
like really going at it with this masturbation thing, and
then it cuts to her mom right there and the
music goes like.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Bomb ball, Will I remember that moment so.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Clearly yeah, yes, once again does not get to finish
all right. So the next day, Nina finds out that
Beth was hit by a car. The director believes that
she did it on purpose to end her life. So
Nina gets these things, some of the best things that
she's taken, goes over to visit her in the hospital,
and Beth is unconscious at this moment, but Nina sees
(11:35):
that she broke both of her legs and will never
will probably never dance probably again, and she sort of
flees before Beth wakes up. Back at the studio, the
director asked that Nina observed Lily dancing the black Swan,
commenting that her movements are quote effortless and that she
quote isn't faking it. Lily shares a resemblance to Nina,
but has the qualities of the black Swan that Nina lacks.
(11:59):
Nina begins to see more and more doppelgangers of herself,
often a black Swan version of herself, more sensual and dark,
and she starts to find these scratches on her back.
The director grows more and more frustrated with her unsensual
performance as the black Swan at one rehearsal, asking it
the other dancer, would you that girl? No, no one would,
(12:22):
and then he kicks everybody out, and then he dances
with her, touching her and kissing her. Then he angrily
pulls away and says, that was mused seducing you when
it should be the other way around, and he leaves
her alone. They also laughed very hard at that part
because then she runs after him and says please, and
it's like a really awkward.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Moment, and the whole audience was like, oh no, what.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Lily comes to Nina's apartment to apologize for telling the
director to lay off Nina something that really annoyed Nina,
and calls the director to yell at her for whining,
and she asks Nina out for drinks. And this is
one of those like there's a paranoia throughout this movie.
But Nina's like, how did you know where I live?
And Lily says, I have my ways, but she just
got it from the secretary at the office. But anyway,
(13:08):
Nina ignores her mother's strong objections and agrees to go out.
Lily offers her ecstasy and she refuses, but Lily puts
some in her drink without Nina's knowledge, or like she
kind of sees it but doesn't do I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I guess she's just going along with the ride.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
At this point, the two drink and dance and flirt
with some men Sebastian Stan included. Nina kisses someone and
the hallucinations grow as they dance on the dance floor.
When they get back to Nina's place, a clearly still
inebriated Nina taunts her mom about the night out that
she's had, prompting her mom to hit her. Furious, Nina
takes Lily's hand and leaves her into a room, barricading
(13:46):
it from the inside and shouting at her mother to
leave her alone. Lily and Nina have sex, and the
black tattooed wings on Lee's backs start like shivering and moving,
but before Nina can finish, she hallucinates a version of
herself in the place of Lily, her mother's voice calling
her sweet girl, and a pillow being pressed over her face.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
So when she wakes up the next morning, Lily is
gone and the door is still barricaded from the inside.
Nina angrily tells her mother she's moving out because apparently
she woke up late and her mother would refuse to
wake her up. She finds Lily dancing the black scene
choreography and confronts her about last night, and Lily reveals
she doesn't sleep over unless she has a dick. She
(14:30):
actually says that teasing Nina for having a sex dream
about her. Nina's paranoia grows as she learns that Lily
has been made her alternate. She begs the director to
choose someone other than Lily, filling Lily's out to get her.
The director tries to assure her, telling Nina the only
one in her way is her, which is not wrong.
(14:50):
Her hallucinations increase and her behavior becomes more erratic. Someone
writes horror on the mirror in red lipstick. She throws
away her stuffed animals. She practices non stop, she's not eating.
She goes to see Beth in the hospital to return
her items, but Beth stabs herself.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
And the cheek with a nail file that she gets back.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
Really grows shouting nothing on repeat, morphing into Nina, and
all the images her mother has painted of her start
moving and Nina flees to her room and hallucinations, transforming
into a swan, hitting her head, passing out. The next
morning is opening night, and Nina's mother again didn't wake
her when she overslept, saying that she had called to
(15:31):
let them know that she was sick and would not
be coming. She tries to leave. Nina does, but her
mother has removed the door knob, and Nina attacks her
mother and recovers the knob, yelling at her about how
she was the one that never left the core.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
So, Nina arrives some Lincoln Center late and the director
tells her he had already asked Lily to fill in
for her, but Nina doesn't budge, asking him if he
needs another controversy after what happened to Beth. Impressed, the
director agrees to let her dance during the first act.
A hallucination midway leads to her being dropped as the
other dancers carrying her. Distraught, she goes to her dressing
(16:07):
room only to find Lily getting ready to dance the
Black Swan, taunting her about her failure and inability to
dance the black Swan. Lily transforms into Nina as the
black Swan, and the two fight so you got two Nina's,
you got your white Swan, your black Swan. And as
they're fighting, they break a mirror, a shard embedding into
the black Swan's stomach, only for her to transform back
(16:30):
into Lily, now bleeding on the floor. Panicked, Nina hides
her body in the bathroom and goes back to the
stage to dance the Black Swan, losing herself just as
the director kept pushing her to. Also, that's the common theme.
That's the name of the song that often plays is
called Lose Yourself. And she does this dance like flawlessly.
(16:52):
She grows feathers and wings as she does it. It's
very Yeah, you've probably seen that image before she kiss
This is the director backstage before returning to the stage
to thunderous applause star wars reference Natalie Portman. She goes
back to her dressing room to change back into the
white Swan, only to be interrupted by Lily, who congratulates
(17:15):
her on her performance and says she'll let her finish.
Nina frantically checks the bathroom, but there is nobody or blood.
She looks down and realizes the shard is in her
own stomach, standing her white uniform with blood still. She
returns to the stage to finish the performance, catching sight
of her mom watching her with tears before she takes
the final swan dive, the crowd giving her a standing ovation.
(17:39):
The director comes back to where she is laying on
the mattress, praising her performance and calling her little princess,
before he realizes she is bleeding, demanding someone to call
for help, and asking what she did. Nina says that
she was perfect, and the movie ends with the audience
chanting her name and clap yes so so much. I
(18:13):
could unfac here, but I did want to touch on, obviously,
the mental illness aspect, because I know, like a lot
of horror movies, it's pretty problematic trope, and a lot
of horror movies where that is used as sort of
the horror right, and it is clear like throughout you're
not sure what's real and what's not, and you're always questioning,
(18:33):
questioning that and questioning the validity of her interpretation of
things or her paranoia.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
That she is certainly.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Like needed help one, but was a perfectionist and could
not like let go of being perfect and pushing herself
to be perfect. But I also think It's interesting this
whole aspect of like art and the kind of expectations
(19:04):
around it, of expectations of sharing your pain or going
through pain, or being expected or even applauded when something
is painful, difficult mentally or physically. Because throughout there's also
just all his imagery of the damage on her body,
(19:25):
like constantly you see the like her toes or how
the thin she is, and that was I remember when
this came out me like Hunice gave an interview where
she said, like it looked good on screen, but it
was so unhealthy, like we were so thin. Yeah, and
just I remember reading about like their diets and how
(19:48):
much exercise they did. And it's weird when you watch
a movie that is about art and then like you've
learned about kind of the same thing that's happening. Like really,
as they're making the movie, it's kind of like, right,
our imitating life. I guess it's what they always say.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Natalie Portman was purposely getting smaller and smaller. Yeah, but
then there was this whole thing about her self harming.
So the scratches came on pretty early on, which is
when we see the interactions. It was I think even
before they started talking about doing black Swan, even though
they had been practicing it already. But like, yeah, and
that was self inflicted, but she was trying to pretend
(20:26):
that she wasn't self inflicted. But that was a habit
that her mom caught early on, knowing that that was
going to pull her to a breakdown because she mentioned
it is happening again.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Isn't that so something had happened previously. That made her.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
Think there's a lot to it, of course, but there
seemed to be an indication that this is a pattern
for her and it was part of her stress and
part of her reaction to stress.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yes, yeah, and it's I always kind of thought. And
again I'm someone who reads like perhaps too deeply into
things a lot, but I always kind of thought it
was like her feeling that she was imperfect manifesting like
on her on her body, and she because she is
really really hard on herself, and.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
In a strange way, that is.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
What holds her back a lot of times, is that
she's so afraid of not being perfect that she doesn't
it holds her back. But I, yeah, I did want
to talk about the relationship between the mother and daughter
and this because it's very toxic.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
And back when I.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Was having that you know, early preset minty feminist movie
Friday conversation in college with my friends, one of the
things I thought was the most interesting was one of
my friends was like, well, obviously there was some sexual
abuse that happened.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I was like, what that is not what I picked
up on.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
But it is very like I feel like it's a
very infantilizing, like she's trying to keep her in her
little girl state, like her room is, you know, in
shades of pink.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
It's very childish.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
She has all these stuffed animals in there, a lot
of their like her mom calls her all the time
and calls the secretary of complaining about stuff at the
ballet place for Nina all the time, and there's this
She's just very controlling and very protective and that narrative
of you know, I had to She even says at
(22:16):
one point, you know, like I had to give up
my career because of you. And I think feeling that
guilt and seeing kind of Nina Sayers and Ali Portman's
character go from defending Beth and saying like, you know,
you can dance into you know, Fontaine dance into her
forties or whatever, and then at the end she's saying,
(22:39):
you know you were old, Bobby, like it didn't matter
that I was born, it was too late for you,
and that whole scene where she's sort of replacing Beth,
and in the back of her mind she must know like,
one day this is my moment, but one day someone
will a.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Younger will replace me as well.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
But all let's say, I think there's a lot of
resentment in their mother daughter relationship, right.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
I think there is also the conversation of like, she
saw herself and so wanted Natalie to succeed, but then
when she saw her succeed, she was passing her and
leaving her behind. So there was this rebread and needed
to be needed. So that's all she knew at that point,
so she wanted to push her to that point so.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
That she could be successful.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
So I thought she was going to be that controlling
mother that you see oftentimes when they poured their own
livelihoods and expectations into the child. But then it flipped
real quick when she's like, oh, she's getting there. But
I also think part of her paranoia blew up to
making her mom the enemy. There was a lot of
bad things, and her mom was actually caring for her.
She really was like trying to stop her from doing
(23:44):
all these bad things to herself in a really negative way.
It was still toxic the way she was trying to
do it, but she's trying to save her daughter's life,
so she knew she was going to die.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
It's that's fazing too.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, now, I it was just complicated. It was a
complex relationship because she was definitely going up at it
in a very unhealthy way. She has that entire room
of just like paintings of Nina, and it just feels
like at the part where she hits Nina, it's because
she said she had sex with two men, and so
that felt to me like she.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Was like, oh, you're gonna make the same mistake, right
I did, even though it's implied that she it was
like maybe this director fellow not the same guy, but
like somebody in that position at the ballet place who
got her pregnant and was like you're fired goodbye. Right. Yeah,
But definitely there was a vibe of.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Not wanting Nina to make the same mistakes, but also
wanting to be very in controlling, not wanting her to
surpass her, like you said, because she'll she'll say these
comments that are very like biting when it's almost like
she's like, look, I know you try, you work so hard,
you're so good, but you're never gonna get beyond this
and that's just where you are, and that's fine, Nina.
(24:58):
But Nina's like, no, I got to push myself. I
got to push myself. I got to pish myself.
Speaker 5 (25:03):
Right. It was a really backheaded way of trying to
slow her down and being healthy, it seemed. Again, there
are some moments that I was like, did that actually
happen or did so? Was she actually in the audience
or was she not? Because she got her hand crushed
twice by her Did that happen? Or was that in
our house? Like which part was the actual mother of
(25:25):
what we were seeing?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I always thought she was there, But you're right, it's
so much of it is destabilizing in the reality. And
then there's also that scene that it kind of relates
to what we've been talking about lately, but where she
Nina finds out she gets the part. She's like so
happy and calls her mom and she comes home and
her mom has this cake and Nina's like no, no, no, no, no, no, can't.
(25:49):
It's too big, it's too big. And then her mom
is like, oh, it's garbage. It like goes to throw
it away, and then Nina's like, oh, okay, no it,
I'll eat it.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
But just moments of that of.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Being like really controlling, dependent on each other, very unhealthy way.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Right for sure, Like it was one of those moments
of like, okay, she's not eating, but then she just
pitched a bet what what?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So that bost of those.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Things like, yeah, you do want her to eat a
slice caaed exactly, but at the same time, you don't
want the mother to force her and make her feel
guilty and gaslighting her to doing these things.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I also did want to talk
about I feel like we talk about this all the time,
but this movie is very much like The Madonna and
whoror The Good Girl the Bad Girl. You've got your good, sweet,
innocent white Swan. It was timid and virginal, described as virginal,
and then you've got the black Swan who is seen
as like sensual and much more like free, you know,
(26:47):
live and there. I mean, there's one scene in this
where because Lily is clearly like the black Swan embodiment.
She's I was watching it last night, even though I
really don't need to because I've seen this a million.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Times, but I loved it.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
But Mila Cutas is like rosspart who is the sorcerer,
a dressed all in black that casts a spell. At
the beginning, she's sort of this person that keeps catching
Nina's attention. And then at the scene where she is
like hovering over Nina's shoulder like she's the devil on
her shoulder. But there's this scene where there they go
(27:27):
out to the restaurant and Nalie Portman, Nina gets, you know,
like a salad, Emila Cunas gets a burger and it's
like extra cheese and it is rare, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Like, this is cool girl. This is the cool girl
trope right right exactly.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
She's also the one that gets the guy and then
shuts down the waiter.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yes, yes, like it's very very flirty and just painted
as like everything is you know, easy and light and
she's you know, fun and willing to live like and
Nina next to hers just like so repressed and closed off.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
And yeah, Lily keeps.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Telling her live a little and she is, I mean,
Nina is very repressed. But like if we're looking at
like the symbolism of what's going on, then essentially it is, yeah,
you can not be this versional all white white swan
or this very sexual black swan who.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
All the men want to be with. Apparently, even though like.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
When he was like, would you that girl and he's
talking about Ali Port were like, uh, all right, dude,
I don't know what I think about. But there's also
a scene where there's just a man masturbating on the subway,
like an old man, and he's looking at her. And
every time I see that scene, I'm like, I'm not
sure what I meant to take from this other than
(28:55):
like she's extremely uncomfortable in her kind of image and
how people perceive.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Her as being one way.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
But you would be, anybody would be. That's a crime.
That's absolutely a crime.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
So to me, this is one of those moments of
Aeronofsky making a shock value demoralizing women, and I know
that's the point. He literally wanted to talk about how
women are the mean to these subjects of whether it's
for us being the virgin or being a whore, like
you can't be either, or you are the overbearing mother,
which we've seen a lot, and or the mother who
(29:29):
can't protect their children. Like those were his kind of
his themes. I've only seen two of his films, so
I guess maybe I'm just generalizing, but because of what
I know of his kind of personality, what he's been
accused of, and then what I know of mother, and
then coming back to see this, which is one of
the ones that made him a big name, coming back.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
To see this, I was like, yeah, there it is exactly.
I think. Nothing was shocking to.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Me because of these are the expectations of Aeronovsky. These
are the expectations of kind of how he uses his women,
his own movies, how he uses women in real life.
So to me, none of that and I say this
in real life as in like what I've read about him,
even in his past relationships and his you know, all
(30:12):
of those things that I'm like, Okay, he is that
director that I would be very much afraid to have
anybody tell me how it was to work with him
because of those demands, and again, like I know part
of that was because he pushed them because he wanted
to see this level of angst and depravity.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Because it was what he was trying to convey.
Speaker 5 (30:34):
Again, this goes back to and we probably have a
larger conversation of types like sex scenes and abuse scenes
and how far should we go in the name of art?
How far should a woman be pushed in the name
of art? And this is one of those prime examples
of that of what we're pushing women to be. And again,
Mila Kunez, I love that she came out with like
(30:56):
this is bad. We went through something really horrible to
make it through this film. But yeah, So Natalie Portman
won the Academy Awards for this role. She won it
as the Best Leading Actress in a Drama, And I
get that this is such a big deal in where
she did, and I'm sure she's very proud of this moment.
(31:17):
But that set level of where are we pushing these artists,
which is the same thing that he was. It was
very meta in that he was kind of accusing the
ballet industry of abusing their women, but in actuality, he
did the same thing for this movie. So I feel like,
to me, like seems like the masturbation scene is literally
to put back into perspective of yes, how innocent she is,
(31:40):
and oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
It almost to.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
The point that, yes, we're supposed to feel creepy about it,
but also normalize it as if you should expect it
for this to happen. She should have expected it as
this beautiful young dancer on public transportation that an old
man is going to masturbate to her. Like it's and again,
like I said, I could be stretching that to like
angry as the why do we have to go to
these links for us to be successful? Us being women
(32:06):
and being taken seriously? And that's kind of that level.
Not gonna lie and I think we're gonna talk about
it in a minute, But like I felt like the
same scene with and I get that was a point,
but the sex thing between Amla Kunos and Natalie Portman
felt like it was for the mel gaze more so
than the movie.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Mm hmm, well yeah, And that's interesting because I, like.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I said, I had my first sex dream after that
I turned on. But now that I'm like older, it
is kind of like another example of crevating, and crevating
is really complicated. We talked about it in a whole episode.
You can look at it but.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I was I was kind of like, let them get
together even though it was very unhealthy, right, But I
did want to talk about what you were just discussing.
Is this uneven power dynamic between especially in this case,
the male director of the vallet and Nally Portman specifically
(33:02):
I mean Nina, but all all the ballet dancers really,
but in this case her and just has so many
instances of like him abusing his position in the name
of art, like you were talking about, like really going
too far, but it being for the art, and it
is because Aeronofsky is That's kind of what Mother was about,
(33:25):
is like, you know, men taking women who are their
muses and putting them through some to make the art
that they'll be credited for, awarded for, and then throwing
away that, you know, traumatized woman who was their muse.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Right, So it is. It is weird.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
And sometimes you see a movie and you're like, or
I may books because every time I read a Stephen.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
King book, I'm like, so this is you, Stephen King,
this is your.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
But yeah, it's not good if I'm like, oh, are
you like vibing with this ballet is art director? Right? Yeah,
(34:17):
So this whole movie was apparently kind of inspired by
the quote shadowy world of understudies and doppelgangers and kind
of taking that and then turning it into a psychological
horror movie. But also yeah about agism and this whole
(34:38):
just idea of getting replaced, which I thought was interesting
because as you watch it and Nina is having hallucinations
and paranoia, you are unsure of like, Okay, I mean,
the understudy is kind of there to replace you, But
how much is this is paranoia?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
How much of it is Lily actually trying to sabotage you?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Right?
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Hmmm?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
At what points was she really there and was she
really like to me?
Speaker 5 (35:09):
I Will noticed when Lily shows up to the apartment,
the mother doesn't acknowledge her. The mother doesn't see her
the entire time, the mother doesn't talk to her.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
So I'm wondering if.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
She was actually showed up as opposed to maybe like
she went out with her, and they did go out,
but she never showed up Like. I wondered both of
those things because I purposely watched the mom's reaction. She
never acknowledges as if she was there. Yeah, and I
see her growing concern when she's talking about So it
could be that she's growing concerned because she's leaving the house,
(35:42):
or she's strong concerned because she's having an imaginary conversation
with no one there.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah, I always like upon after the movie is done.
The first time, I thought that she had been there,
but I think, yeah, she wasn't there. The way it
shot is like Lily is kind of like over her shoulder, yes,
and seeing the lines with her as she says them.
So I don't think she was there, but it is
you know, all these things that you've got to question,
(36:08):
and there's a lot of like elements of gaslighting throughout
where you're kind of I can't tell how much of
it is gaslighting and how much of it is something
did or did not happen.
Speaker 5 (36:20):
I'm a hallucination right Well, to be fair, the original
Beth was thinking that the entire time that now Impartment
Nina's character was coming after her, and she didn't want
her to be the like I don't know if maybe
this was a rerun of what happened to the person
before her, but it kind of was that same insinuation
that you're trying to be me, you're trying to replace me,
(36:41):
and she kind of was because she stole her to
look like her.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Yeah, and then at the end when she goes to
visit death at the hospital, Nina's like, I.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Understand now she's out to get me.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
She's trying to get me, and that's like, you stole
my things, right, and then it devolves from there.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Okay, But I did.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Want to talk about this because back in my when
I first saw this movie, I thought that the whole
thing was about the female orgasm.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Okay, interesting, yes.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Because and you know we're gonna use some language. Is
not totally uh.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I guess the problematic is problematic and how we think
about orgasms and how sex works and orgasms don't have
to be the end all be all, but that is
how we discuss them a lot. But throughout the movie,
there's so many lines where it's like, just let her finish,
lose yourself, and it's like constantly, every time she's on
the verge of a breakthrough of losing herself of an orgasm,
(37:43):
something happens she's interrupted.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
And so I.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Thought the first time I saw this, I thought it
was about the fear of the female orgasm, because when
she finally does finish, she does and ors very that
at the very least, right, and it's definitely like, maybe
that's not what the whole meaning is, or maybe I
was reading too much into it, but that is the
(38:10):
theme throughout, is that she never gets to she's repressed
and she never gets to have this sexual experience of
sexual orgasm.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
But it doesn't she finished with me lacunas. No, but
she's not thought she did.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Mm hmmm, nope, because since she they were like on
the urge, the edge, I guess, and then she looks
up and it's her own face and then the pillow
in her face, and so she does not.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Plus she probably wasn't well, who knows what was happening
at that point, if she was masturbating her.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Cab scene too.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yes, I'm assuming that was a hallucination as well.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
Right right, m my a subject as well. Guy, I
would not have gone there. That was not my thoughts.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
That's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
See, this is what I love about when you have
these conversations with friends and there's like feminism involved.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I'm like, I think these people who involved in this
would be afraid lady having an orgasm.
Speaker 5 (39:16):
My thought was that a woman could not be fully human.
That was my whole thing until like she gave everything
up of herself and then sacrificed yourself and then you
could be credited as human.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Mm hmm, Like, yeah, are either just any value the
art Yeah, of having to really put your your health
physical and mental health on the line, And.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
I guess I would include not having orgasms.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
I could. I mean, it's just so funny.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
That's why I wanted to talk about this for so
long because I was so adamant about it, and this
was before I really you know, I was I was
learning more and more about feminism and how we talk
about these kinds of things. But I'm just surprised that
I was so strongly of the opinion at this point
that that's what it was about. And when I say, like,
(40:09):
it's problematic in terms of you know, as we've discussed
in a lot of recent episodes, it's the orgasm doesn't
have to be the end or the the you know,
the thing. But a lot of the music when she's
like masturbating and you know, almost there is building like
it's like leading up to this, which does make sense,
but that also gives like the narrative of Jess Letter
(40:31):
finish like and that is the end all, which it
doesn't have to be. But I remember I was like
shouting that at the screen at just let her finish
the whole reason I want to talk about this obviously,
there's a lot of like themes that I have thought about.
It'll change the way you watch it.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
It's more of like, I see where your head's at, Annie,
I see what your hel's at.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I mean again, the first extream I ever had after
this movie, So maybe my head was in a very
specific place at this point in time.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yeah, hey, you do you? Yes, well let's speak to
you how it needs to speak to you.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Yes, you know, I appreciate that, Samantha. I will say, like.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
The time when this came out, I don't think it
was still pretty and it still is pretty risque, even
though you know it really shouldn't be. But to show
a woman masturbating that was like the first instance I
had seen it, And.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
I'm sure it's even more shocking because it was Natalie Portman, Like,
there's so many things to who she is as an
individual that like having again, this is very much her role,
Like to me, yes, this is so is suited for
her from jump from being that playing innocent being very
like all of these things, even though even as a child,
she never was a child actor, Like we know this.
(41:49):
Her first role was really really deep and dark and
a fantastic role, but like, oh, this should have been
for an adult, right, But there's no way any other
child like she really pulled it off as a child
in these roles. But at the same time, you still
have her as an innocent, young, all American sweet girl.
So having her masturbate as a timid almost herself as
(42:10):
almost what we would expect of her, Like it's a
character for her.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
To do that is shocking in itself.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah, And I remember also at this time that now
you're making me analyze all of my stuff that was
going on.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
But I just bought my first vibrator. I had just
learned about masturbation.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
I feel like there's a whole awakening that ties to
this movie for you.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I think so. I had never thought about it in
this way. Thank you say so.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
At the time when it came out, I don't think
i'd ever seen anything like that.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I was even like, is that, how are you mastur rate?
I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
People were like no, But I don't think I've seen
like a sex scene between women or if I had.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Not like that.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Yeah, clearly it stuck with me. And this is what
I at the time. I was like, a orgasm, that's
what you.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
Took from it? Got it?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Again, Yeah, I think that's a lot to say in itself.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
I feel like you're judging me, But it's all.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Right, you're not judging you at all.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
Because I was like, huh, and I think you told
me this before and it didn't click, and then watching
it and I'm like, I still don't get it, but okay,
get it.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
I do get it.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Mm hm.
Speaker 5 (43:24):
I felt like that was like that would have been
never the conclusion I had come to.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Then again, I have a lot more.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
I was already tainted by so many previous conversations about
this movie in general, so I was already very aware
of kind of some of the things that were floating
out there in conversation to this movie.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Not your conversation that was new what I have perceived.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Yeah, and I will say, like, if this was a
different podcast, we'd go more into it. But there was
also controversy about how much dancing Nlie Portman did do
actually do versus what they said she actually did, And
then austar around the costuming and who got credit for
the costuming. But it seems very complicated, right. It seems
(44:12):
like a lot of hears say I don't want to
I'm not coming out on anybody's side.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
I'm just saying I know that that exists.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
So yes, and jose FYI. Yes.
Speaker 5 (44:22):
So she married Benjamin Millipede, who is a French ballet dancer,
and he was the choreographer. Oh interesting, he played David Moreau.
So I don't know, I don't know. I think that's
her partner in the movie. Oh yes, this is how
she met her husband.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
All right, Well, yeah, I mean I could keep going
on and on because I just have so many thoughts
about so much of this stuff in this movie, and
just also the pressure for women to feel perfect and
the pressure to put up with stuff we really shouldn't
have to put up with because that's where the industry was.
(45:02):
I mean, pretty soon after this, the ballet industry did
have their whole me too movement. I mean I guess
a couple of years, but still like they underwent that
as well. And uh, there's just a lot about, yeah,
the art that goes in into this and what we
expect of women, but otherwise, if I keep going, we'll
(45:24):
never stop. Yes, I did also, but you know, briefly
want to say, I think it's interesting that the dichotomy
of the white swan, black swan, the madonna, the whore
like you get praised but also penalized for being the
sweet girl, the innocent, the virginal one, but people like
the black swan better because she's flirty and fun. I
(45:47):
don't know, I find it interesting that there's like punishments
involved in both if you stray out of your box,
but also judgments involved in both.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Yeah, right, lots of things.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Lots well, I'm so glad we finally got to discuss
this because it has been since twenty.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Ten, been over my mind apparently.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
But as always, listeners, if you have a suggestion for
a movie, a book, a topic, anything, please contact us.
You can email at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia
dot com. You can find us on Instagram at stuff
I Never Told You or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast.
Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina, thank you,
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
You production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
(46:35):
is It the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or where you
listen to your favorite shows.
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