January 4, 2025 • 50 mins
Celebrity life is often not as flashy as it looks, especially for women and girls. We look behind the camera at the harmful environment that judges women on all counts, and treats them as expendable in this classic episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is any and SMITHA and welcome to Stuff
I Never Told You Production of iHeartRadio. And as this
comes out, this classic, it is the new year. We
know there's a lot of problematic messaging, especially towards women
(00:29):
in the new year. And also we just did what
I call a New Year's movie, The Substance, on this show,
and so I thought it would be good to bring
back the classic we did on Hollywood's toxic treatment of
women because it relates to that, and also I think
a lot of us can relate to it because in
(00:51):
the New Year, they're just bombarded. We're just bombarded with
messages that are not helpful, not great, and don't make
you feel good. So please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,
(01:12):
this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan Never
Told You Production of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yes, and welcome to today's episode. And Annie, I'm going to
go ahead and start off with a question. Are you ready?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
I hope? So, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Hope you are too. Here we go.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
So, Annie, you are in the world of acting your nectar,
and so that makes me ask when you were growing up,
was it something that you wanted to do? A and
B if so who if you had any were some
of the actresses that you looked up to.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well, good question. I have always wanted to act, but
I also suffer from a pretty strong anxiety, performance anxiety,
and shyness, so I was really bad at it. I'll
just be honest with you, like every now and then, Yeah,
if I could get past those nerves, then it would
be great. But usually I'd be up there like four
(02:13):
years old, like oh, like shaking, visibly shaking, and so
it was a strange thing that I dreaded, Anne loved.
And I have some performances I look back on and
they gave me great shame. They heat my cheeks with shame.
I have auditions that I'm like, please, for the love
of everything, I hope this never gets out because it's terrible.
(02:35):
I have a panic attack in the middle of one,
like whoo. I hurt myself during performance once because my
character like fell asleep. She was supposed to fall asleep
in the middle, and I just like slammed my head
on the table and it was supposed to be funny,
and I just remember everyone in the auditor and going ooo.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Oh, no, we got a word.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And I had a huge bruise on my face like
it was bad. Oh no, So I have been doing
it since I was probably, and I like to think
I've gotten better, but it is still a source of
nerves for me. I was very imaginative and I liked
coming up with scenarios and I like pretending. So I
think that was part of it. And it's interesting for
(03:14):
this topic that we're talking about today and for the
conversation we had with Eves recently in her last femal
first we did, I didn't really the attention was not
the thing I wanted, right, So even like that is
a huge part of performance, I just wanted to like
pretend and act the like people looking at me part No, right, yes,
(03:37):
but I did also interesting for this conversation, I did
look up to a number of actresses, and Natalie Portman
was a big one. After Phantom Menace came out, I
was big. I was like, oh, I want to be
like her. Oddly enough Scarlett Johansson. But I saw her
in Hole in three, which was a movie I loved,
and I will admit it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
That's amazing to say oractophobia. I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
No. I did watch that though, because David ar Kett
was in it. I had a crush on David ar Kidd.
No freaks, I'm mixing it up. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, Mary, Kate,
Ashley Olsen. Uh. That was. They were big for me,
as you know, I was in their fan club and
I watched all their stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
That's right, Yeah, I think those were.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I'm sure And forgetting other people, but those I think
Natalie Portman was my biggest and in terms of like
an actor that I was like, right, yes, right.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, you know, I was thinking about all of this
and I forgot until my niece who I just saw recently,
who is in a senior in high school and a
part of drama, reminded me that I am a part
of the International Thespian Society, and I was like, oh yeah,
I actually did qualify for that, didn't I? Because I
was also in drama and I really loved it. And
(04:54):
when I tell you I have some really horrible moments,
I have some really horrible moments because, as you know,
my work at needs to push sometimes I like to
work on the edge, and I am one of those
that has to do it last minute or it's not
gonna be good. And it's gonna be all over the place,
which is funny because it's already kind of all over
the place, but it would be way worse in way
(05:15):
in advance, and I did that way with my auditions,
and that did not turn out so well, because middle
rizes are not lines like ten minutes of dialogue the
night before. Almost impossible, it's true, almost impossible unless you
have one of those identic memories, and I do not.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I do not, So I did do this on stage.
I actually thought I was going to be an actor too.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Of course, the reality of it was I was a
chubby Asian girl, and there's no way in hell I've
not seen many chubby Asian girls in general, unless they
are kind of the caricature stereotypical characters, and I would
never I didn't want that necessarily, although I do enjoy
being funny, so hoping like, the only way I want
attention is that I'm making people laugh and then I
(06:00):
run away and hope they're not laughing at me.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
But yeah, actually I was thinking about that.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
I was like, oh, yeah, I actually know a little
bit about this world, a little bit. And I say
this in the high school level of a little bit
as you know, my acting needs work.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
But why am I talking about all of this?
Speaker 3 (06:19):
When it comes to celebrities, we are fascinated, and y'all,
I am fascinated. I will do a deep dive about
who is connected to whom and how they all know
each other. I love playing the third degrees to Kevin Bacon,
to Gavin Bacon.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
If I can, which I never really relate to Kevin.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Bacon, but go to a third degree food degrees? What
is it? Sixth degrees of Kevin Bacon?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Kevin, I didn't even get it right that way degree
You want to be accurate.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know what? He was on the Hot Ones.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
The other day and I was like I am anyway. So,
whether it's the projects they're in or about their personal lives,
we get invested. I really get invested, so much so
that it seems that their lives become public property. More
and more conversations have sparked with different controversial topics specific
to women and female celebrities and for those whose careers
(07:13):
start at an early age even more so so. Today,
we wanted to look at what is happening with Hollywood,
especially when it comes to the young ladies. So before
we start I feel like we need to do some
history right because this is what we do. And I've
talked a lot about the fact that I feel like
I'm lacking a little bit in my life when it
comes to hobbies and interests.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
I just kind of gave up on a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
But I realized as we were researching this topic, there
are so many realizations. I was like, oh, yeah, that
I was really into old school Hollywood, Like I have
a lot of trivia knowledge as well as some interesting facts,
and like I've seen the most.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Obscure old old movies which you're going to hear me
reference and is interesting. But I being like old school,
I loved music. And I know I've talked about this with.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Eaves actually on here because we both really like musicals,
and we'll talk about, hey, have you've seen this, which
she gave me one and in the move it's somewhere
in my stuff. I need to find it. And I
didn't watch it because it's supposed to be a delight
in And yes, I mean loved so much so that
my mother would always say that I should have been
born in the forties, which I always countered with the
(08:24):
fact that my Korean self would have never been welcomed
in the US, much less in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So you know, there's that.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
But alas, I loved it, loved it so much that
I would watch documentaries about different movie stars and movies.
And also in my mind, I just knew I could
time travel to meet them, like I had these fantasies
one day, time traveling to meet these people, which would
have been a horrible mistake because a lot of people
were awful people. But when it came down to the reality, well,
it was ugly. And the more I learned, I think
(08:53):
the more we realized how awful it must have been
for a lot of them, especially the women, especially young women.
I guess here we should go ahead and let you
know that we are going to talk a bit about
some of the trauma and traumatic experiences of many of
these stars, including abuse, eating disorder, sexualization of a young girls,
and the such. So, even though we're not going to
(09:14):
go too heavily into the deep deep, we are going
to talk about why this can be ugly.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, and it is no longer a secret that the
movie industry was not all glitz and glamour, especially for
young women. If you read memoirs and and biographies on
past stars like Judy Garland, Elizabeth Taylor, Shirley Temple, I
would add Carrie Fisher, and so many more. We saw
all this abuse that young stars went through, how they
(09:40):
were treated as property less than human. Horror stories after
horror stories of abuse and harassment haunted the old movies
that so many of us a door. Garland told the
story being so medicated that she wasn't able to come
to set on time and being hospitalized thanks to studio
execs and even her own mother who push sure beyond
(10:00):
her sanity and her health to become a perfect young starlet.
The overall pressure on the young stars was detrimental and
was coming from all sides, including Yes family, and oftentimes
the stars were the breadwinners of the family. Even America's
sweetheart Shirley Temple, who I also did love, Yes, talked
about the overwhelming moments of not wanting to disappoint her
(10:21):
mother and even her father. Elizabeth Taylor, though she seemed
to have a better relationship with her parents, still knew
she had to keep going for them and even for
her fans. In her biography, her mother was quoted to
have said, but you're not a regular child, and thank
God for that. You have a responsibility, Elizabeth, not just
to this family, but to the country now and the
whole world.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Right And honestly, it doesn't seem like it's changed much.
I think there's a little more awareness and we try
a little see what's happening.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
But when it comes to the expectations place on young stars,
the responsibility of building a fandom and building a persona
and helping provide for their families, it's still there were
young girls. The fine line between infantilizing and sexualizing causes
even more emotional and physical stress, which has been around
from the beginning of time when it comes to Hollywood
celebrities and celebrities in general.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
In the early memoirs of these classic Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Stars, there were many who talked all the ongoing stress
of growing up too fast or those who are not
growing up fast enough. Shirley Temple's career became stagnant after
her early childhood career as many could not see her
as an adult with an actual adult body, and it
may have been due to the hardworking machine of studio
publicists and media at the time, but it was odd
(11:35):
to know her from classics like the Little Princess to
seeing her in the movie That Hagen Girl, which I
have seen and really threw me for a loop.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I was very young when I watched this.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Of course, Hirley Templewole was already an ambassador and has
gone on to live her own life, but it started
her and Ronald Reagan, which at that time I'd never
seen Ronald Reagan in a movie. I knew he was
an actor at one point in time, but I never
actually seeing him in a movie.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So this kind of like whoa there he is?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Who was, by the way, is seventeen years older than
her during this time, so she was nineteen and he
was thirty six, and in this he was her romantic lead.
And yeah, the plot of the movie was that he
may have been her father because she was orphaned and
she was trying to figure that out. But then it
turned out, thank goodness, he wasn't because he was slowly
falling in love with her, and then they go off
(12:24):
into the train station to go get married. It was
a very odd setup to me, and I remember with
obviously it is distinct in my mind, I'm like, this
does not compute, does not compute. But yeah, but honestly, though,
even though we talk about Shirley Temple being infantilized and
being young and trying to stay young, like they made
(12:46):
her younger. They lied about her age on the contract
so she could continue beyond the time limit. But her
first film had her in an exotic bar during a
war film called War Babies, so it was kind of like, hmm,
did she actually just get thrown into that way? And
Elizabeth Taylor was sexualized at a very early age due
(13:07):
to her physically developing early and even being pushed to
be set up on fate dates to show how quickly
she was becoming a woman. So the studio execs were
excited that she was growing up, and I like fifteen
sixteen pushed her into that genre very quickly.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, And for that time, this type of push was
accepted and not well regulated. There were stories of separating
child stars from the parents so they could discipline children
however necessary for the movie, including locking children boxes, making
them sit on blocks of ice if they were not obedient,
pushing actors to work beyond the regulated times, and other
horror stories so much so that studies were conducted of
(13:46):
child stars and performers and how they may be affected
emotionally and physically. By all of this, many young girls
talked about how they experienced sexual harassment during their times
on studios and sets, and many talked about the overly
strictitude of their parents pushing them into that career. And
I think there's a lot of conversation around that in
terms of reality TV show right well right. One article
(14:09):
we found talked about the impact of being a celebrity
as a child and of the impacts of the motivation
of both child and parents, and how that could determine
a child's experience, as well as the amount of time
they spend in the spotlight environment and the child's age.
And in the same article they said, these children are
at high risk of becoming emotionally unstable and of becoming drug, alcohol,
(14:31):
or sex abusers. Children at different ages display behavioral changes
that might indicate that they are risk.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah, and it's just the article was talking mainly about
the type of high risk behavior that they would have
if they were monitored and how this could go a ride.
Of course, they used Drew Barrymore as an example as
she was introduced to that lifestyle very young by her
mother thinking. You know, her mother was thinking she can
be a cool kid, as well as Elizabeth Taylor being
(14:58):
very sexualized very early and told this is her worth,
and so her finding that as her worth and trying
to really capitalize on it, not only in her screen
life but on her personal life. So it was very
interesting take in that conversation. It was a fairly old article,
and I wonder what they would say, because you're right,
we don't even talk about reality TV in this and
how that changes. We do talk a little bit about
(15:20):
social media, so kind of on that same level, but
when it comes to reality.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
TV, what does it do? Who does it harm?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
And is it really healthy? Have we seen a good example?
There's a lot of questions. Yeah, the role of media
has always helped to make or break careers, and it
(15:49):
was a bit more manageable during the so called Golden
Age of film, and I say manageable, manipulated, but they
held a lot of power, but in a different way
than today.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Will a little more.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
About how media affects today versus then, but historically it
was no different. And Elizabeth Taylor's biography, the author talks
about Taylor's own connections with a popular columnist who helped
make many careers as well as ended many and how
often studios would use the media to keep the perfect
image of their stars.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
At all expenses.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Essentially, they would pay whatever in order to keep that going,
and unsurprisingly, all the success caused a lot of competition
among stars, which is still around. Elizabeth Taylor's feud with
Debbie Reynolds painted Taylor as a villain, as the temptress
who came and stole her man, which she kind of did,
and then roles were fought over. More fuse happened, and
(16:41):
it kept them on their toes because essentially the studios
wanted this to happen. They needed the stars to know
they're expendable, and the evils of comparing young stars with
each other was prevalent in order to keep them in line.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
But the overall usage of shame and guilt was a
cloud leaming over all of them. Body shaming began from
the start, with young stars brought in to be inspected, judged,
and oftentimes physically changed, including plastic surgery and dangerous dregs
being used to keep young girls thin even if they
didn't need to be. So, the question remains, has it changed?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Has it changed?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Well? Ah, Unfortunately, when it comes to sexualizing or infantalizing
young stars. Nothing has really changed, Honestly, it seems it
may have gotten worse, thanks in part to things like
social media and the Internet as a whole. In one
article from NBC about Natalie Portman's own experience as a
child's actor, they write, quote, Hollywood bifurcates young women's sexualities,
(17:45):
so they usually only have two options to be hyper
sexual or to deny that they are sexual at all
and it's true, which often leads the audience and fans
to only see these actors in one specific way and
then if that's if that image is torn part. Oftentimes
this at the expense of the actress themselves, as in fact,
Portman talked about how one of her first fan letters
(18:09):
was a rape fantasy written about her by an adult
man and they sent it to her as a fan, which, yeah,
but that's not the.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Worst of it.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
We've seen repeatedly how media will scorn a young actress
about what they wear, how much they weigh, and whether
they fit.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
The mold of that perfect star.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
And a prime example, of course is Britney Spears, who
has been raked over the calls for any and everything,
eventually leading her to the conservativeship against her will. And yeah,
I know we've talked about this before, but I think
it's really she is a good highlight of what has
happened recently and what we're kind of learning from, but
not enough.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah. Yeah, she went from being the virgin to the
horror within a few years, with every aspect of her
life being ridiculed and scrutinized, and later I'm being critiqued
in her parenting and of course her body as a whole,
and the overall obsession in her sex life was a
complete double standard in comparison to her male counterparts, as
(19:08):
in fact, while she was ridiculed and publicly grilled and
TV interviews, her ex boyfriend was being praised as being
a man for getting quote into her pants, many conservative
parent groups were admonishing her as a bad influence and
would shame her as well as any of her fan beies,
proving once again a dan if you do, dan if
you don't for so many of the young celebrities, right, and.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
We also have seen the disturbing conversations about young teens
who we as fans have been able to see grow
up but quickly become an object of obsession and sexualization.
Examples include the different redditen blogs that have countdown clocks
to when young girls.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Were turning eighteen years old.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Example Emma Watson, I think she had a whole post
of her turning sixteen.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
A radio show did that.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
I believe a rapper did it for Kendall Jin when
she was turning eighteen, to the fact that I think
someone actually propositioned her to do a sex tape when
she turned immediately eighteen, or even worse put in situations
such as Mara Wilson, who is a child star of
movies such as Matilda and Missus Doubtfire, were images of
(20:17):
her on foot feedgi sites and she was photoshopped into
child pornography all before the age of twelve, and today
it's still happening as the new season of Stranger Things
has been released, which I binged, yes I did and
start Millie Bobby Brown's recent eighteenth birthday, her image and
style has been sexualized and criticized by so meaning. Of course,
(20:39):
it didn't just start when she turned eighteen, but has
been a topic of conversation since she's hit the spotlight,
and on top of that, she's having to defend herself
from strangers who seem to think they know her enough
to judge her, including people calling her a bitch off
the fact that they can just tell yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And I was talking to one of my friends, Marissa,
who's been on here. Hello Marissa, she's like my other
TikTok person. It's you and her sent me the tiktoks
that I need. And I was asking her about this
because this was sort of the impetus you told me
about this on TikTok was sort of impetus for this episode.
And she she's a huge Stranger Things fan, and she
(21:15):
was telling me like she remembered when Millie Bobby Brown
was younger, like really young, and people would pull her apart,
terror apart because she talked too much. So she wasn't
like PR trained. She was a child who was excited,
so they tore her apart. And now they're mad, according
to Marissa, and I believe Marissa. Now they're mad because
she seems more cold and like closed off. But she's
(21:37):
doing the thing that they were telling her she should
have done as a child. Basically, she got PR training.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
It sounds like essentially, I know there was one post
where she they were doing publicity for Stranger Things. It
was the whole cast, and she came out I think
of the crowd and came to the front because of
another ptographer. You know, someone had requested it, or she
had been pushed up or something, and it wasn't just
(22:05):
because she did it. And one of the photographers like,
she's so annoying. Why did get out of the way,
And it was like, wait, she's just doing what she's
been insuanted to do. Why are you doing this? And
then another post which she criticized and I put this
in quote marks, but she was saying if she could
change something that she wished more deaths, said she wanted
like a Game of Thrones level of deaths in the
(22:27):
show because it didn't feel realistic. And then she was
teasing the Duffer brothers are saying, you know, they're being pansies.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
They need they need to just go.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Ahead kill people off. And of course they responded, they're like,
all right, we got you. But the way they presented
it was Millie Bobby Brown criticizes directors, and it was
obviously a push of a dig as if she was
truly saying this, And even still it seemed in the
interview if you actually read the interview, it was obvious
(22:56):
that she had said this to them before, making fun
of them and or tease them and set it out loud,
and then to misconstrued us her being a bit complaining
about the show. So it was very interesting to see
how they are really framing what she is doing, how
she is being, her being professional, her being I mean,
she is now a pro at this. She has done
(23:17):
this since as child, probably more understanding of this limelight
than a lot of people. So she is an old
hat in this. But because of that, she's too confident,
she's too sure what is she doing, which does make
you think.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Right it does it does something else that makes you
think there are these old school ideas that can still
lead to a loss of opportunity for these young stars,
such as Vanessa Hudgins, who was fired from Disney after
nude pictures of her were leaked, Which actually leads to
a whole other topic which we want to revisit, concerning
(23:53):
how the media and people in general exploit celebrities by
releasing private data or information for the sake of gossip.
I also want to add in here, and this all
reminds you of when it was a big deal when
Order the Phoenix came out and Emma Watson that name
was fifteen, fifteen sixteen, and the company or somebody who
worked for the company photo shopped her boobs to be bigger,
(24:14):
and people were like, Hi, that's it, that's a kid, that's.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
That's really unnecessary.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Why are you why are you doing this? And I
remember being like, it just sends a message. A lot
of this sends a message to young girls who are
consuming it. Right. But yeah, speaking of.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Media, right, let's jump into it.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
So we did talk about earlier how media does impact
and it's changed a little bit since that time, and
it's not so controlled by studios anymore.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
So.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
After the release of Framing Britney Spears, there was a
new flurry of conversation about how we as a society
treat young women in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Of course, if you're my age range. One of the biggest.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Conversations the impact of media celebrities was due to the
tragic death of Princess Diana, which we could talk about
how Megan Markle is being scrutinized in a similar way today,
of course, with the added plus of racist media, so
that's a whole different conversation, but we did highlight how
so many of the celebrities during that time were often
dragged through the mud for clickbaity articles and selling just tabloids.
(25:17):
And that was the kind of the beginning of TMZ
Entertainment tonight, all that which was just all about celebrity gossip.
And yeah, as we look in hindsight, we see that
there's something fundamentally wrong when someone's trauma is used to
get a bit of cash or notoriety. As writer as
Shandon McGuigan, so sorry if I said that wrong, writs
in her article on the media's treatment of female public figures.
(25:39):
Quote the intensity of the media's hounding of Brittany highlighted
a real lack of empathy shown towards the star, And
this was a statement from Hannah Davies in that article,
which was The Guardian's deputy TV editor at the time.
She further declared that Brittany was dehumanized in the eyes
of the media and the public, with society expressing and
intense amounts of judgment that was regarded as socially acceptable,
(26:03):
demonstrated through March plastered with jokes of Brittany surviving two
thousand and eight being produced for profit, and we know
how all of that went down, all of the clips,
and if you got a photo in her distress, it
was paid for by thousands and thousands of dollars.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And the messier the better for the media headlines insinuating
mental health breakdowns, drug usage, messy breakups pushed young celebrities
to the edge, and though teen boys were talked about,
it was never to the same degree that the young
teen girls received. They pitted women against women for bigger
headlines like we had the whole teaen Gin or Team
(26:40):
Angelina and came to Brad Pitt.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
There was t shirts.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it was a huge thing. I
just remember like going down like checking out the grocery store,
and like every magazine cover was it is I know,
I know. Wow. Then we all so saw blaming women
for sexual aggression, like Janet Jackson, the whole Super Bowl thing,
(27:05):
accusing women of being divas or bitches like Mariah Carey
and Megan Fox. And we've talked a bit about the
villainizing of these women in part due to men purposely
ruining careers for not playing the submissive ladies that Hollywood
once dominated, like Weinstein and Michael Bay right, if you
(27:26):
try to get out of that box, and you're right.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I mean, there was plenty of women who have since
come out that I have been ostracized and blacklisted because
I would not be victimized by these men. And it's
quite interesting because it does. It's reminiscent of old Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, And there are some people who are finally getting
there due like Britney Spears, who has been freed from
the controversial conservative ship and is starting to get some
apologies from the many who exploited her lowest points in
her life, Megan Fox being vindicated from her ruined reputation.
And there are those who are able to take a
step back and take control of those traumatic narratives, such
(28:07):
as Mara Wilson, who I also loved as a kid,
and some who have been able to continue in their
career on their own terms, like Nali Portman and Natasha Leone.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
You know, I guess we should mention stepping back would
be Mary Kate and Ashley, whom you love so dearly.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I loved them so much. I could tell them apart.
They're not identical twins, they're fraternal twins. I would like
it was the most annoying habit. I'd be like, oh
that's Ashley. Oh sorry Kate, and everyone's like, please stop
if we're watching it.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Take talent, that's an important talent.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
And of course some credit movements like the Me Too
movement and holding the media accountable for the insensitive and
often traumatic content in relation to young actresses and female celebrities,
but others say has a lot to do with social
media as well and how individuals are able to direct
the conversation. Again, and the whole accountability stuff is pretty
(29:04):
pretty significant. Whether that is good or bad, some can't tell.
In this era of accountability, call outs, call ins, and canceling.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Social media can be a slippery slope. We all know this.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Many celebrities have already remained largely offline due to being
harassed or targeted, and several have vowed to never be
online due to the.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Overall privacy issue.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
That's fair, and there are celebrities who use their social
media as a way to connect with fans and the
tool to keep their fans updated in their lives, which
can be good. But some have talked about the overall
pressures and anxiety social media causes and how they can
no longer participate or have to take extended breaks from it.
Stars like Selena Gomez and Millie Bobby Brown have either
(29:45):
taken breaks from social media for their mental health or
overall for the safety of others. I know at one
point Millie Bobby Brown had one of her pictures taken
to become a meme and it was really homophobic. It
was very hurtful, and she was like, I had no
thing to do with this, and it came out it
wasn't her, but it was being accredited to her and
people were attacking her and she had to come off.
(30:07):
Of course, you know, we've talked about constantly how yeah,
we have to be very careful and we're not celebrities,
so I couldn't imagine having millions and millions of followers
who may turn on you at any moment.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah. Yeah, and that's why we're big proponents here. I
think it's just good at internet practice, like do your
research before you just like tweet something or right, just
find out where it's from or what's going on, uh,
because it might not be what you think and then
you might attack someone who really had nothing to do
with it nothing. Yeah. Yeah. And also Mersa was telling
(30:44):
me about this documentary she watched with Taylor Swift and
she was like, Taylor Switch has a whole like team
that's like, here we go, We're gonna tweet this out.
How we're gonna word it was the best way? And right, Oh, I.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Know, I know a lot of popstars are having to
like they are told they have to in order to
release their albums and that things are being settled hostage
in order to get it done. So there's such a
whole layer that it would suck to be on that
level celebrity with no power.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yes it would, Yes, it would. Something else that also
sex as being under constant scrutiny by the masses, and
it has pushed many celebrities to go dark. And we
have talked about this a lot when it comes to
things like Star Wars and Marvel, like the big franchises
where they get, especially women and other marginalized folks, get
all of this hate and not really anybody coming to
(31:37):
their defense right in terms of like their co stars,
like the studio, and so they leave and yeah, the
as we've also discussed, there is a bigger conversation of
bots because a lot of it is bots and also
just protection from harassment for these marginalized folks, the impact
(32:01):
that can have, what we could possibly do, because it
is a huge problem.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Right again, of course we talked about the fandom, toxic
fandom and the gatekeeping. There's a lot of conversation in that,
and we know that's not always the case. But yeah,
we've seen a lot of marginalized women specifically getting targeted
just because they just don't like it period and they
have nothing to do with creating the character other than
acting and typically acting the hell out of it. And
(32:27):
we love it and it had it been a standalone
people probably would not have never.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Had a second thought. But of course, yeah, we can't
have nice things.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
No, Yeah, well, speaking of speaking of social media, the
age of social media has led to this idea of anonymity,
which allows for individuals who in person may be they
may seem okay, but online feel very imbold in Tuesday
whatever whenever, without recourse, as we have learned through many
(32:59):
criticism of this podcast, this very podcast. And then I
used to have to answer these things on YouTube and
I'd be like, Hi, have a nice day or whatever,
and they'd be like wow, someone responded, I'm like, yeah,
some poor soul.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I don't read this.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yes, and all of this begs the question is this okay?
And what is our responsibility as a fan of something
or of someone. As young actresses and celebrities grow up,
the world watches their every move and oftentimes makes these judgments,
and they feel the need to do so through their keyboard,
(33:37):
thinking they won't be noticed or yeah, even like on
a podcast, start through other mediums like this, feel like
they can make these criticisms. It's okay. When fans and
critics become too familiar with the celebrity, we often forget
that they are yes, human, there is somebody there and
they deserve to be treated as such. Two women podcasters
(33:59):
felt the need to call Milling Bobby Brown a bitch
because they felt she just seemed that way. And again
that's sort of what got this idea.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah, yeah, this whole level, and honestly, there's so much
more to that, because we know there's this whole critic like,
she just seems to like people someone I wouldn't like.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
She just seems like it.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
That's fine, you don't have to like everybody, But what
does this need to call them in such a derogatory
manner without knowing them and instead of like just having
a moment of like I wonder, I wonder what kind
of pressures they are. I just keep them out of
your mouth, don't speak about them.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That's all it takes.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And speaking of criticism, that kind of just doesn't make
sense other than she's a woman that you don't want
to see in this I don't know. One of those
critics felt Carrie mulligan was not a good pick to
carry out the role of a film fatale character, even
though her performance in the movie Promising Young Women was
well received, and her hitting back at the criticism as
(34:50):
a sexist and even agist remark was actually countered with
another criticism as saying that that there is a right
to be able to criticize and critique a celebrities appearance
and actors appearance if it seems like they are miscast.
So I went through, we went through when we were
looking at this and speaking about this article, because it
(35:13):
was a pretty big deal. Kay, Mulligan came out pretty
strong and being like, Okay, we get it. You don't
like me as this cast, you don't believe me as
being the fat teale. That's on you. But why do
we need to go about this appearance thing. And I
even mentioned, like the article that was written in even
mentioned well, Margot Robbie was a producer. I'm sure it
wasn't intended for her, so obviously like a backhanded criticism.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
About her appearance.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
And then someone came in defense of that, not saying
necessarily that her looks should have been critiqued, but more
so that we as the audience, should be able to
say this probably wasn't cast right based on appearance, based
on looks, which seemed wasn't.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
The same to me.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I kind of understood what they were going with this,
but at the same time, but this is this is
a little bit ages. Obviously what they wanted was the hot, blonde, tall,
young fatale that we have seen so often.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
And Kay Mulligan's not that old. No talk about that.
He he's not that old, So none of that makes
sense in itself.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
But of course they talked about, you know, women wouldn't
want to see, which was really odd Chris Hemsworth playing
a dowdy poet, and I was like, why not before
you what are you talking about. We've seen honky men
playing serious roles. We've seen ridiculous comedians being the serious,
(36:38):
filling guy, like I mean Jim Carrey won awards for
his serious roles, which you would never thought this slapstick
comedian could do and even seen as like a leading man,
So it kind of like, no, we don't have that.
Of course, she talked about the fact that we should
be able to say, have this critique so we could
(36:59):
open up for more different variations of looks to take.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Leading roles, but I don't feel like.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
That was where they were going with this, especially in
critiquing that specifically.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that we are much more forgiving
in general of men, whether it's perceiving them to be
a bitch or not. Like women have to be nice
and grateful they got this role right, and you have
to be because we have limited roles for women like
we have historically in Hollywood and the like. I believe
(37:32):
the average age for women winning an oscar like ten
years ago, so this might have changed. It was twenty
six and for a man it was fifty three. So wow,
I think we have like and by we, I mean
audiences have this idea of for women it is this
and it looks like this, and I can critique her
appearance because that's what women is about. For men, it
could be they could do anything but women. And I
(38:07):
know I've told this story before. I had I had
a for me, a pretty big break, pretty big role,
and the night I was supposed to shoot it, the
guy told me that one of the oh, I don't know,
one of the crew, he was like, it sucks to
be in an industry where it's all about your looks, right,
And I looked at him and I was like, what what?
(38:28):
And then they gave it to a man because he
was like, I think I think it'd be better. I
think it'd be more believable for a man did this.
I was like, what what?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
And this most like that that you realize this is
not an easy industry in itself, that it's not set
up for just anyone, which is a whole different conversation. Yeah.
And then there's this debate of crossing boundaries, which that
dude cross a boundary, I would say, but I'm referencing
to celebrities. Is it okay to interrupt a celebrity during
(39:01):
a dinner for a photo? Is it okay to film
or take pics without their knowledge or permission? Can we
go into somebody's home without permission for souvenirs. Of course,
these are more rhetorical questions, but it has become less
and less acceptable to cross these boundaries, which is great,
But at the same time, we've seen a lot of
backlash for those who are private and seek to keep
(39:22):
it that way. So people who get upset if you've
been waiting at their hotel room and they don't want
to stop to talk to you, right, we get it,
like you love them and you feel like you have
this ideal of them. But if they're tired, they're tired,
and they should have the right to say that. We
saw recently Tom Hanks America Sweetheart, get very angry when
(39:45):
his wife and I don't know exactly what happened when
Rita Wilson, who is a celebrity as well also his.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Wife, but either tripped got pushed.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
There was a lot of conversation about what happened, and
he lost it and cursed that people to be like,
calm down off, And that's his right, that makes sense,
but he got a lot of backlash for it too,
Like he got both love and hate for that reaction,
and it kind of has that point of like, okay,
so what is this line how do we make sure
we don't cross those boundaries? But what is this line
(40:16):
of like, you're celebrity and this is kind of what happens.
And I know the kind of maybe this is just
making making it up seeing too many movies, like they
love it at first and then they hate it. Yeah,
so kind of those two things. And it seems like
it sometimes take drastic and extreme measures for people to
realize this, whether it's a tearful request to be given privacy,
(40:39):
so being like please leave me alone. Y'all have done
so much you like, really harassed us, Please stop to
almost into endangering their lives and being put in these
situations that are so extreme that that's the final point
of like, hey, you almost killed us tonight, Please don't
do this.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah. Yeah, it's that level of fan entitlement we've talked
about before where it's some it's kind of bizarre to me,
but it's like this idea that they owe us something.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Right, we put you here, right, and.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
It's sort of the price of your fame almost. It's
like you will you're rich and famous, so I get
to do whatever and I'll never forget. I saw this
interview with Jennifer Lawrence a couple of years ago, and
she was talking about visiting her family and she's like, well,
we had to put up all the you know, trash
bags of the windows. And I was like, wait what
She's like, oh, yeah, so we had to put up
every time I visit them, we put up trash bags
over the windows so they can't take pictures. She was
(41:33):
talking about like trying to explain that to the young
people and her family and just how bizarre, like that
sounds terrible to me, that sounds awful. We've also talked
about parasocial relationships a little bit before, and here we
can easily see how this can be good, can be
really great, or it can't be really really awful. And
(41:55):
as we said before, fans are powerful and deserve respect,
because yes, the power of fandom is no joke. You know,
we love some healthy fangirls over here, and they can
really really make things happen. That is or sure, the
Britney Stands are a force and we're able to keep
the conversation alive when so many people had written it
(42:17):
off around around Britney Spears and the conservatorship. But it
can also be a negative incidents where fans feel betrayed
by celebrity can be a real storm. Think of Hailey
Bieber after she and Justin got together, those who were
teams Lena have non stopped her, asked her for just
being with him. We've talked about that before, to the
(42:38):
point both she and Justin have repeatedly asked her fans
to stop and how it's been affecting them.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Both, right, And we've seen that in different celebrities, like
if they don't like the person you're with, they may
go after you. Of course, there's some conversations of like yeah,
but there's some that's like this is dangerous, this is
an unusual circumstance. We have questions kind of all of that,
but that I digress. I won't give any examples of that,
(43:05):
but but yeah, there's a lot when it comes to
all of these responsibilities and how we see celebrities in itself,
and especially when it comes to women, the expectations that
we hold, and it kind of makes you think, what
does the future hold? Is the future going to be
better for the next generation of stars and celebrities And yeah,
(43:27):
with the new mediums come new levels of stardom from
YouTube stars to TikTok stars, to whatever the next level
may be.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Twitch.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
I guess Twitch is already there. We are seeing a
whole different level of celebrity, and some experts have already
begun their studies in these types of celebrity. In an
Insider or article written by Rachel E. Greenspand, she talks
with psychologists and about the up and coming stars of
TikTok and the expectations. And in the article, greenspand rights
experts warned that these young influencers will face the typical
(43:59):
hurdles child fame, but with the additional complication of real
time social media surveillance by millions and an algorithmically programmed
addiction to the instant gratification of a never ending barrage
of notifications, which is my nightmare. I know those notifications
that go away.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
I think I can figure this out for you, smath.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
So we've already talked about the damages, how about early
childhood stardom and what that can cause? But add to
that the immediateness of social media, the total access provided
by the stars and by the fans, like they are
going to tell you immediately if they like or don't
like something.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yep, and it's the Internet, so it doesn't go away, right,
And this new level of stardom has brought out a
new generation of hopefuls who are waiting for their time
to go viral. Greenspan continues. The algorithms that underlie practically
every social media service today force us to compete for visibility.
These teenagers may now feel themselves an extraordinary bind, competing
(44:58):
against each other and the newspeed algorith in order to
maintain visibility, a competition in which only the social media
services succeed. The concept of viral social media fame has
become so ingrained in our society that it's almost natural
for people to hope their next post will take off,
and some of the newly made celebrities have already learned
(45:18):
about the backlash of fame. Many under the cancel culture,
a narrative due to the extreme or impulsive natures of
their posts, have learned this lesson, have seen it, have
experienced it, but they are also learning how to handle it.
Greenspan continues. Many influencers have already, perhaps unintentionally, discovered what
experts say is the best way to protect oneself against
(45:39):
the dangers of fame by using influence to help the
world and raise awareness about causes you're passionate about. You're
actually establishing a deeper sense of who you are as
a person.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Right, and I am interested to see what the statistics
will look like. We again did not talk about reality
stars and young stars, because there has been this conversation
about the sexualization of young girls in these videos as
well as infantalizing some of the girls who were no
longer young younger.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Jojo Sawa was one.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
Of those who got criticisms on both ends when she
was growing up, but yet still kept the ponytail to
finally coming out and finding relationships and growing in ourselves
and being criticized for that. Like, it's just a whole
new level of stardom that we've never seen that is
produced again by the pressures of oftentimes family and society.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
That part has seemingly not gone away.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, And I think the the Internet. I mean, we
talk about it all the time on here, and Bridgett
does such a great job of breaking it down. There's many,
many beautiful things about the Internet, but in a lot
of ways, like those comment sections can be just like
every toxic thing in our society amplified right, So we're
already getting as young girls all of these really harmful
(47:01):
messages about our body and how you should look and
how we should behave and then if you multiply that
by social media, I can only imagine being young and
absorbing that and seeing that. Right.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
You know, the double edged sword to this is we
have more body positive influencers and that's beautiful and I'd
love to see it. Half the time they're defending their
body and their videos because there's so many that still
continue to attack them and continue to really harass them.
So it feels kind of like, yes, this is great,
but at the same time, oh my god, they still
(47:36):
have to keep going through all of this and still
have to be in this position to take this kind
of abuse.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
It's interesting. I'm interested in seeing how this goes.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
I think what we really wanted to do about this
and I didn't get to it, Like the honest title
was going to be the villainization of young teenage stars,
but we couldn't even find enough articles because there are
so many other things that seem to be traumatizing and
triggering for a lot of these celebrities that we haven't considered.
Of course, you know this goes into that like, well,
(48:08):
at least they have all of these basic necessities and
all of these things, and most of the people were
talking about our young white girls. Yeah, and that's unfortunate
because we don't even we have to go climb a
whole new level of toxicity when it comes to the
black young black girls who are going through so much
that they don't even get the chance to become that
(48:30):
half the time because of the racism that is so
staunch and so heavy here. So we know this is
that level of conversation, but there's a lot to consider
when we see what is happening, especially for myself as
a social worker who worked with young kids, seeing this
is such a problem in such a big way. But
at the same time, you hope it changes, but historically
(48:52):
it doesn't seem to be.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, yeah, And I think a part of this it
goes back to something you said earlier, Samantha's it's very
clear that we again as a society, view women as
expendable and we kind of their misery is our entertainment
and that's fine, and we feel very entitled as a society. Again,
(49:15):
I'm not speaking about Smith then, I but you know,
we as a society feel very entitled to cause harm,
to like really judge everything they do and then throw
them away when they experience any sort of trauma or
anything that doesn't fit in how we think they should
behave and how they should look.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, and I mean that's that's up to like even
Harvey Winstein. Like the fact that went on so long, right,
that's pretty telling. Yeah. Yeah, so there is a lot
to there's a lot to un back here. Yes, yes,
there is. Well. Listeners as always, if there's anything you
want us to follow up on in here, if there
(49:54):
is resources, we haven't shut it out. If you have
a favorite Mary Kate and Ashley movie, you can't let
us know.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Do you want to talk to me about musicals? I
don't think anyone does.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
I think I don't think anyone read out about Mary
Kate Ashley. But you could prove us all or wrong. Listeners.
Our email is Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
or on Instagram at Stefon'll Never hold You. Thanks as
always to our super producer Christina, with bonus thanks this
week to researcher Joey and our executive producer Maya. It's
(50:27):
really badass group of guys.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Y'all are the heroes. Yes helped us with this so much.
Shout out.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yes all the shout outs and thanks to you for listening.
Stuffner tell you protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
from iHeart Radio, if you can visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts or regul listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is any and SMITHA and welcome to Stuff
I Never Told You Production of iHeartRadio. And as this
comes out, this classic, it is the new year. We
know there's a lot of problematic messaging, especially towards women
(00:29):
in the new year. And also we just did what
I call a New Year's movie, The Substance, on this show,
and so I thought it would be good to bring
back the classic we did on Hollywood's toxic treatment of
women because it relates to that, and also I think
a lot of us can relate to it because in
(00:51):
the New Year, they're just bombarded. We're just bombarded with
messages that are not helpful, not great, and don't make
you feel good. So please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,
(01:12):
this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan Never
Told You Production of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yes, and welcome to today's episode. And Annie, I'm going to
go ahead and start off with a question. Are you ready?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
I hope? So, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Hope you are too. Here we go.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
So, Annie, you are in the world of acting your nectar,
and so that makes me ask when you were growing up,
was it something that you wanted to do? A and
B if so who if you had any were some
of the actresses that you looked up to.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well, good question. I have always wanted to act, but
I also suffer from a pretty strong anxiety, performance anxiety,
and shyness, so I was really bad at it. I'll
just be honest with you, like every now and then, Yeah,
if I could get past those nerves, then it would
be great. But usually I'd be up there like four
(02:13):
years old, like oh, like shaking, visibly shaking, and so
it was a strange thing that I dreaded, Anne loved.
And I have some performances I look back on and
they gave me great shame. They heat my cheeks with shame.
I have auditions that I'm like, please, for the love
of everything, I hope this never gets out because it's terrible.
(02:35):
I have a panic attack in the middle of one,
like whoo. I hurt myself during performance once because my
character like fell asleep. She was supposed to fall asleep
in the middle, and I just like slammed my head
on the table and it was supposed to be funny,
and I just remember everyone in the auditor and going ooo.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Oh, no, we got a word.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And I had a huge bruise on my face like
it was bad. Oh no, So I have been doing
it since I was probably, and I like to think
I've gotten better, but it is still a source of
nerves for me. I was very imaginative and I liked
coming up with scenarios and I like pretending. So I
think that was part of it. And it's interesting for
(03:14):
this topic that we're talking about today and for the
conversation we had with Eves recently in her last femal
first we did, I didn't really the attention was not
the thing I wanted, right, So even like that is
a huge part of performance, I just wanted to like
pretend and act the like people looking at me part No, right, yes,
(03:37):
but I did also interesting for this conversation, I did
look up to a number of actresses, and Natalie Portman
was a big one. After Phantom Menace came out, I
was big. I was like, oh, I want to be
like her. Oddly enough Scarlett Johansson. But I saw her
in Hole in three, which was a movie I loved,
and I will admit it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
That's amazing to say oractophobia. I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
No. I did watch that though, because David ar Kett
was in it. I had a crush on David ar Kidd.
No freaks, I'm mixing it up. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, Mary, Kate,
Ashley Olsen. Uh. That was. They were big for me,
as you know, I was in their fan club and
I watched all their stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
That's right, Yeah, I think those were.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I'm sure And forgetting other people, but those I think
Natalie Portman was my biggest and in terms of like
an actor that I was like, right, yes, right.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, you know, I was thinking about all of this
and I forgot until my niece who I just saw recently,
who is in a senior in high school and a
part of drama, reminded me that I am a part
of the International Thespian Society, and I was like, oh yeah,
I actually did qualify for that, didn't I? Because I
was also in drama and I really loved it. And
(04:54):
when I tell you I have some really horrible moments,
I have some really horrible moments because, as you know,
my work at needs to push sometimes I like to
work on the edge, and I am one of those
that has to do it last minute or it's not
gonna be good. And it's gonna be all over the place,
which is funny because it's already kind of all over
the place, but it would be way worse in way
(05:15):
in advance, and I did that way with my auditions,
and that did not turn out so well, because middle
rizes are not lines like ten minutes of dialogue the
night before. Almost impossible, it's true, almost impossible unless you
have one of those identic memories, and I do not.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I do not, So I did do this on stage.
I actually thought I was going to be an actor too.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Of course, the reality of it was I was a
chubby Asian girl, and there's no way in hell I've
not seen many chubby Asian girls in general, unless they
are kind of the caricature stereotypical characters, and I would
never I didn't want that necessarily, although I do enjoy
being funny, so hoping like, the only way I want
attention is that I'm making people laugh and then I
(06:00):
run away and hope they're not laughing at me.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
But yeah, actually I was thinking about that.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
I was like, oh, yeah, I actually know a little
bit about this world, a little bit. And I say
this in the high school level of a little bit
as you know, my acting needs work.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
But why am I talking about all of this?
Speaker 3 (06:19):
When it comes to celebrities, we are fascinated, and y'all,
I am fascinated. I will do a deep dive about
who is connected to whom and how they all know
each other. I love playing the third degrees to Kevin Bacon,
to Gavin Bacon.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
If I can, which I never really relate to Kevin.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Bacon, but go to a third degree food degrees? What
is it? Sixth degrees of Kevin Bacon?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Kevin, I didn't even get it right that way degree
You want to be accurate.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know what? He was on the Hot Ones.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
The other day and I was like I am anyway. So,
whether it's the projects they're in or about their personal lives,
we get invested. I really get invested, so much so
that it seems that their lives become public property. More
and more conversations have sparked with different controversial topics specific
to women and female celebrities and for those whose careers
(07:13):
start at an early age even more so so. Today,
we wanted to look at what is happening with Hollywood,
especially when it comes to the young ladies. So before
we start I feel like we need to do some
history right because this is what we do. And I've
talked a lot about the fact that I feel like
I'm lacking a little bit in my life when it
comes to hobbies and interests.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
I just kind of gave up on a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
But I realized as we were researching this topic, there
are so many realizations. I was like, oh, yeah, that
I was really into old school Hollywood, Like I have
a lot of trivia knowledge as well as some interesting facts,
and like I've seen the most.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Obscure old old movies which you're going to hear me
reference and is interesting. But I being like old school,
I loved music. And I know I've talked about this with.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Eaves actually on here because we both really like musicals,
and we'll talk about, hey, have you've seen this, which
she gave me one and in the move it's somewhere
in my stuff. I need to find it. And I
didn't watch it because it's supposed to be a delight
in And yes, I mean loved so much so that
my mother would always say that I should have been
born in the forties, which I always countered with the
(08:24):
fact that my Korean self would have never been welcomed
in the US, much less in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So you know, there's that.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
But alas, I loved it, loved it so much that
I would watch documentaries about different movie stars and movies.
And also in my mind, I just knew I could
time travel to meet them, like I had these fantasies
one day, time traveling to meet these people, which would
have been a horrible mistake because a lot of people
were awful people. But when it came down to the reality, well,
it was ugly. And the more I learned, I think
(08:53):
the more we realized how awful it must have been
for a lot of them, especially the women, especially young women.
I guess here we should go ahead and let you
know that we are going to talk a bit about
some of the trauma and traumatic experiences of many of
these stars, including abuse, eating disorder, sexualization of a young girls,
and the such. So, even though we're not going to
(09:14):
go too heavily into the deep deep, we are going
to talk about why this can be ugly.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, and it is no longer a secret that the
movie industry was not all glitz and glamour, especially for
young women. If you read memoirs and and biographies on
past stars like Judy Garland, Elizabeth Taylor, Shirley Temple, I
would add Carrie Fisher, and so many more. We saw
all this abuse that young stars went through, how they
(09:40):
were treated as property less than human. Horror stories after
horror stories of abuse and harassment haunted the old movies
that so many of us a door. Garland told the
story being so medicated that she wasn't able to come
to set on time and being hospitalized thanks to studio
execs and even her own mother who push sure beyond
(10:00):
her sanity and her health to become a perfect young starlet.
The overall pressure on the young stars was detrimental and
was coming from all sides, including Yes family, and oftentimes
the stars were the breadwinners of the family. Even America's
sweetheart Shirley Temple, who I also did love, Yes, talked
about the overwhelming moments of not wanting to disappoint her
(10:21):
mother and even her father. Elizabeth Taylor, though she seemed
to have a better relationship with her parents, still knew
she had to keep going for them and even for
her fans. In her biography, her mother was quoted to
have said, but you're not a regular child, and thank
God for that. You have a responsibility, Elizabeth, not just
to this family, but to the country now and the
whole world.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Right And honestly, it doesn't seem like it's changed much.
I think there's a little more awareness and we try
a little see what's happening.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
But when it comes to the expectations place on young stars,
the responsibility of building a fandom and building a persona
and helping provide for their families, it's still there were
young girls. The fine line between infantilizing and sexualizing causes
even more emotional and physical stress, which has been around
from the beginning of time when it comes to Hollywood
celebrities and celebrities in general.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
In the early memoirs of these classic Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Stars, there were many who talked all the ongoing stress
of growing up too fast or those who are not
growing up fast enough. Shirley Temple's career became stagnant after
her early childhood career as many could not see her
as an adult with an actual adult body, and it
may have been due to the hardworking machine of studio
publicists and media at the time, but it was odd
(11:35):
to know her from classics like the Little Princess to
seeing her in the movie That Hagen Girl, which I
have seen and really threw me for a loop.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I was very young when I watched this.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Of course, Hirley Templewole was already an ambassador and has
gone on to live her own life, but it started
her and Ronald Reagan, which at that time I'd never
seen Ronald Reagan in a movie. I knew he was
an actor at one point in time, but I never
actually seeing him in a movie.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So this kind of like whoa there he is?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Who was, by the way, is seventeen years older than
her during this time, so she was nineteen and he
was thirty six, and in this he was her romantic lead.
And yeah, the plot of the movie was that he
may have been her father because she was orphaned and
she was trying to figure that out. But then it
turned out, thank goodness, he wasn't because he was slowly
falling in love with her, and then they go off
(12:24):
into the train station to go get married. It was
a very odd setup to me, and I remember with
obviously it is distinct in my mind, I'm like, this
does not compute, does not compute. But yeah, but honestly, though,
even though we talk about Shirley Temple being infantilized and
being young and trying to stay young, like they made
(12:46):
her younger. They lied about her age on the contract
so she could continue beyond the time limit. But her
first film had her in an exotic bar during a
war film called War Babies, so it was kind of like, hmm,
did she actually just get thrown into that way? And
Elizabeth Taylor was sexualized at a very early age due
(13:07):
to her physically developing early and even being pushed to
be set up on fate dates to show how quickly
she was becoming a woman. So the studio execs were
excited that she was growing up, and I like fifteen
sixteen pushed her into that genre very quickly.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, And for that time, this type of push was
accepted and not well regulated. There were stories of separating
child stars from the parents so they could discipline children
however necessary for the movie, including locking children boxes, making
them sit on blocks of ice if they were not obedient,
pushing actors to work beyond the regulated times, and other
horror stories so much so that studies were conducted of
(13:46):
child stars and performers and how they may be affected
emotionally and physically. By all of this, many young girls
talked about how they experienced sexual harassment during their times
on studios and sets, and many talked about the overly
strictitude of their parents pushing them into that career. And
I think there's a lot of conversation around that in
terms of reality TV show right well right. One article
(14:09):
we found talked about the impact of being a celebrity
as a child and of the impacts of the motivation
of both child and parents, and how that could determine
a child's experience, as well as the amount of time
they spend in the spotlight environment and the child's age.
And in the same article they said, these children are
at high risk of becoming emotionally unstable and of becoming drug, alcohol,
(14:31):
or sex abusers. Children at different ages display behavioral changes
that might indicate that they are risk.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah, and it's just the article was talking mainly about
the type of high risk behavior that they would have
if they were monitored and how this could go a ride.
Of course, they used Drew Barrymore as an example as
she was introduced to that lifestyle very young by her
mother thinking. You know, her mother was thinking she can
be a cool kid, as well as Elizabeth Taylor being
(14:58):
very sexualized very early and told this is her worth,
and so her finding that as her worth and trying
to really capitalize on it, not only in her screen
life but on her personal life. So it was very
interesting take in that conversation. It was a fairly old article,
and I wonder what they would say, because you're right,
we don't even talk about reality TV in this and
how that changes. We do talk a little bit about
(15:20):
social media, so kind of on that same level, but
when it comes to reality.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
TV, what does it do? Who does it harm?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
And is it really healthy? Have we seen a good example?
There's a lot of questions. Yeah, the role of media
has always helped to make or break careers, and it
(15:49):
was a bit more manageable during the so called Golden
Age of film, and I say manageable, manipulated, but they
held a lot of power, but in a different way
than today.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Will a little more.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
About how media affects today versus then, but historically it
was no different. And Elizabeth Taylor's biography, the author talks
about Taylor's own connections with a popular columnist who helped
make many careers as well as ended many and how
often studios would use the media to keep the perfect
image of their stars.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
At all expenses.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Essentially, they would pay whatever in order to keep that going,
and unsurprisingly, all the success caused a lot of competition
among stars, which is still around. Elizabeth Taylor's feud with
Debbie Reynolds painted Taylor as a villain, as the temptress
who came and stole her man, which she kind of did,
and then roles were fought over. More fuse happened, and
(16:41):
it kept them on their toes because essentially the studios
wanted this to happen. They needed the stars to know
they're expendable, and the evils of comparing young stars with
each other was prevalent in order to keep them in line.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
But the overall usage of shame and guilt was a
cloud leaming over all of them. Body shaming began from
the start, with young stars brought in to be inspected, judged,
and oftentimes physically changed, including plastic surgery and dangerous dregs
being used to keep young girls thin even if they
didn't need to be. So, the question remains, has it changed?
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Has it changed?
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Well? Ah, Unfortunately, when it comes to sexualizing or infantalizing
young stars. Nothing has really changed, Honestly, it seems it
may have gotten worse, thanks in part to things like
social media and the Internet as a whole. In one
article from NBC about Natalie Portman's own experience as a
child's actor, they write, quote, Hollywood bifurcates young women's sexualities,
(17:45):
so they usually only have two options to be hyper
sexual or to deny that they are sexual at all
and it's true, which often leads the audience and fans
to only see these actors in one specific way and
then if that's if that image is torn part. Oftentimes
this at the expense of the actress themselves, as in fact,
Portman talked about how one of her first fan letters
(18:09):
was a rape fantasy written about her by an adult
man and they sent it to her as a fan, which, yeah,
but that's not the.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Worst of it.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
We've seen repeatedly how media will scorn a young actress
about what they wear, how much they weigh, and whether
they fit.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
The mold of that perfect star.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
And a prime example, of course is Britney Spears, who
has been raked over the calls for any and everything,
eventually leading her to the conservativeship against her will. And yeah,
I know we've talked about this before, but I think
it's really she is a good highlight of what has
happened recently and what we're kind of learning from, but
not enough.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah. Yeah, she went from being the virgin to the
horror within a few years, with every aspect of her
life being ridiculed and scrutinized, and later I'm being critiqued
in her parenting and of course her body as a whole,
and the overall obsession in her sex life was a
complete double standard in comparison to her male counterparts, as
(19:08):
in fact, while she was ridiculed and publicly grilled and
TV interviews, her ex boyfriend was being praised as being
a man for getting quote into her pants, many conservative
parent groups were admonishing her as a bad influence and
would shame her as well as any of her fan beies,
proving once again a dan if you do, dan if
you don't for so many of the young celebrities, right, and.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
We also have seen the disturbing conversations about young teens
who we as fans have been able to see grow
up but quickly become an object of obsession and sexualization.
Examples include the different redditen blogs that have countdown clocks
to when young girls.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Were turning eighteen years old.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Example Emma Watson, I think she had a whole post
of her turning sixteen.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
A radio show did that.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
I believe a rapper did it for Kendall Jin when
she was turning eighteen, to the fact that I think
someone actually propositioned her to do a sex tape when
she turned immediately eighteen, or even worse put in situations
such as Mara Wilson, who is a child star of
movies such as Matilda and Missus Doubtfire, were images of
(20:17):
her on foot feedgi sites and she was photoshopped into
child pornography all before the age of twelve, and today
it's still happening as the new season of Stranger Things
has been released, which I binged, yes I did and
start Millie Bobby Brown's recent eighteenth birthday, her image and
style has been sexualized and criticized by so meaning. Of course,
(20:39):
it didn't just start when she turned eighteen, but has
been a topic of conversation since she's hit the spotlight,
and on top of that, she's having to defend herself
from strangers who seem to think they know her enough
to judge her, including people calling her a bitch off
the fact that they can just tell yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
And I was talking to one of my friends, Marissa,
who's been on here. Hello Marissa, she's like my other
TikTok person. It's you and her sent me the tiktoks
that I need. And I was asking her about this
because this was sort of the impetus you told me
about this on TikTok was sort of impetus for this episode.
And she she's a huge Stranger Things fan, and she
(21:15):
was telling me like she remembered when Millie Bobby Brown
was younger, like really young, and people would pull her apart,
terror apart because she talked too much. So she wasn't
like PR trained. She was a child who was excited,
so they tore her apart. And now they're mad, according
to Marissa, and I believe Marissa. Now they're mad because
she seems more cold and like closed off. But she's
(21:37):
doing the thing that they were telling her she should
have done as a child. Basically, she got PR training.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
It sounds like essentially, I know there was one post
where she they were doing publicity for Stranger Things. It
was the whole cast, and she came out I think
of the crowd and came to the front because of
another ptographer. You know, someone had requested it, or she
had been pushed up or something, and it wasn't just
(22:05):
because she did it. And one of the photographers like,
she's so annoying. Why did get out of the way,
And it was like, wait, she's just doing what she's
been insuanted to do. Why are you doing this? And
then another post which she criticized and I put this
in quote marks, but she was saying if she could
change something that she wished more deaths, said she wanted
like a Game of Thrones level of deaths in the
(22:27):
show because it didn't feel realistic. And then she was
teasing the Duffer brothers are saying, you know, they're being pansies.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
They need they need to just go.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Ahead kill people off. And of course they responded, they're like,
all right, we got you. But the way they presented
it was Millie Bobby Brown criticizes directors, and it was
obviously a push of a dig as if she was
truly saying this, And even still it seemed in the
interview if you actually read the interview, it was obvious
(22:56):
that she had said this to them before, making fun
of them and or tease them and set it out loud,
and then to misconstrued us her being a bit complaining
about the show. So it was very interesting to see
how they are really framing what she is doing, how
she is being, her being professional, her being I mean,
she is now a pro at this. She has done
(23:17):
this since as child, probably more understanding of this limelight
than a lot of people. So she is an old
hat in this. But because of that, she's too confident,
she's too sure what is she doing, which does make
you think.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Right it does it does something else that makes you
think there are these old school ideas that can still
lead to a loss of opportunity for these young stars,
such as Vanessa Hudgins, who was fired from Disney after
nude pictures of her were leaked, Which actually leads to
a whole other topic which we want to revisit, concerning
(23:53):
how the media and people in general exploit celebrities by
releasing private data or information for the sake of gossip.
I also want to add in here, and this all
reminds you of when it was a big deal when
Order the Phoenix came out and Emma Watson that name
was fifteen, fifteen sixteen, and the company or somebody who
worked for the company photo shopped her boobs to be bigger,
(24:14):
and people were like, Hi, that's it, that's a kid, that's.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
That's really unnecessary.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Why are you why are you doing this? And I
remember being like, it just sends a message. A lot
of this sends a message to young girls who are
consuming it. Right. But yeah, speaking of.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Media, right, let's jump into it.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
So we did talk about earlier how media does impact
and it's changed a little bit since that time, and
it's not so controlled by studios anymore.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
So.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
After the release of Framing Britney Spears, there was a
new flurry of conversation about how we as a society
treat young women in Hollywood.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Of course, if you're my age range. One of the biggest.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Conversations the impact of media celebrities was due to the
tragic death of Princess Diana, which we could talk about
how Megan Markle is being scrutinized in a similar way today,
of course, with the added plus of racist media, so
that's a whole different conversation, but we did highlight how
so many of the celebrities during that time were often
dragged through the mud for clickbaity articles and selling just tabloids.
(25:17):
And that was the kind of the beginning of TMZ
Entertainment tonight, all that which was just all about celebrity gossip.
And yeah, as we look in hindsight, we see that
there's something fundamentally wrong when someone's trauma is used to
get a bit of cash or notoriety. As writer as
Shandon McGuigan, so sorry if I said that wrong, writs
in her article on the media's treatment of female public figures.
(25:39):
Quote the intensity of the media's hounding of Brittany highlighted
a real lack of empathy shown towards the star, And
this was a statement from Hannah Davies in that article,
which was The Guardian's deputy TV editor at the time.
She further declared that Brittany was dehumanized in the eyes
of the media and the public, with society expressing and
intense amounts of judgment that was regarded as socially acceptable,
(26:03):
demonstrated through March plastered with jokes of Brittany surviving two
thousand and eight being produced for profit, and we know
how all of that went down, all of the clips,
and if you got a photo in her distress, it
was paid for by thousands and thousands of dollars.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
And the messier the better for the media headlines insinuating
mental health breakdowns, drug usage, messy breakups pushed young celebrities
to the edge, and though teen boys were talked about,
it was never to the same degree that the young
teen girls received. They pitted women against women for bigger
headlines like we had the whole teaen Gin or Team
(26:40):
Angelina and came to Brad Pitt.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
There was t shirts.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it was a huge thing. I
just remember like going down like checking out the grocery store,
and like every magazine cover was it is I know,
I know. Wow. Then we all so saw blaming women
for sexual aggression, like Janet Jackson, the whole Super Bowl thing,
(27:05):
accusing women of being divas or bitches like Mariah Carey
and Megan Fox. And we've talked a bit about the
villainizing of these women in part due to men purposely
ruining careers for not playing the submissive ladies that Hollywood
once dominated, like Weinstein and Michael Bay right, if you
(27:26):
try to get out of that box, and you're right.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I mean, there was plenty of women who have since
come out that I have been ostracized and blacklisted because
I would not be victimized by these men. And it's
quite interesting because it does. It's reminiscent of old Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, And there are some people who are finally getting
there due like Britney Spears, who has been freed from
the controversial conservative ship and is starting to get some
apologies from the many who exploited her lowest points in
her life, Megan Fox being vindicated from her ruined reputation.
And there are those who are able to take a
step back and take control of those traumatic narratives, such
(28:07):
as Mara Wilson, who I also loved as a kid,
and some who have been able to continue in their
career on their own terms, like Nali Portman and Natasha Leone.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
You know, I guess we should mention stepping back would
be Mary Kate and Ashley, whom you love so dearly.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I loved them so much. I could tell them apart.
They're not identical twins, they're fraternal twins. I would like
it was the most annoying habit. I'd be like, oh
that's Ashley. Oh sorry Kate, and everyone's like, please stop
if we're watching it.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Take talent, that's an important talent.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
And of course some credit movements like the Me Too
movement and holding the media accountable for the insensitive and
often traumatic content in relation to young actresses and female celebrities,
but others say has a lot to do with social
media as well and how individuals are able to direct
the conversation. Again, and the whole accountability stuff is pretty
(29:04):
pretty significant. Whether that is good or bad, some can't tell.
In this era of accountability, call outs, call ins, and canceling.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Social media can be a slippery slope. We all know this.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Many celebrities have already remained largely offline due to being
harassed or targeted, and several have vowed to never be
online due to the.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Overall privacy issue.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
That's fair, and there are celebrities who use their social
media as a way to connect with fans and the
tool to keep their fans updated in their lives, which
can be good. But some have talked about the overall
pressures and anxiety social media causes and how they can
no longer participate or have to take extended breaks from it.
Stars like Selena Gomez and Millie Bobby Brown have either
(29:45):
taken breaks from social media for their mental health or
overall for the safety of others. I know at one
point Millie Bobby Brown had one of her pictures taken
to become a meme and it was really homophobic. It
was very hurtful, and she was like, I had no
thing to do with this, and it came out it
wasn't her, but it was being accredited to her and
people were attacking her and she had to come off.
(30:07):
Of course, you know, we've talked about constantly how yeah,
we have to be very careful and we're not celebrities,
so I couldn't imagine having millions and millions of followers
who may turn on you at any moment.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah. Yeah, and that's why we're big proponents here. I
think it's just good at internet practice, like do your
research before you just like tweet something or right, just
find out where it's from or what's going on, uh,
because it might not be what you think and then
you might attack someone who really had nothing to do
with it nothing. Yeah. Yeah. And also Mersa was telling
(30:44):
me about this documentary she watched with Taylor Swift and
she was like, Taylor Switch has a whole like team
that's like, here we go, We're gonna tweet this out.
How we're gonna word it was the best way? And right, Oh, I.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Know, I know a lot of popstars are having to
like they are told they have to in order to
release their albums and that things are being settled hostage
in order to get it done. So there's such a
whole layer that it would suck to be on that
level celebrity with no power.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yes it would, Yes, it would. Something else that also
sex as being under constant scrutiny by the masses, and
it has pushed many celebrities to go dark. And we
have talked about this a lot when it comes to
things like Star Wars and Marvel, like the big franchises
where they get, especially women and other marginalized folks, get
all of this hate and not really anybody coming to
(31:37):
their defense right in terms of like their co stars,
like the studio, and so they leave and yeah, the
as we've also discussed, there is a bigger conversation of
bots because a lot of it is bots and also
just protection from harassment for these marginalized folks, the impact
(32:01):
that can have, what we could possibly do, because it
is a huge problem.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Right again, of course we talked about the fandom, toxic
fandom and the gatekeeping. There's a lot of conversation in that,
and we know that's not always the case. But yeah,
we've seen a lot of marginalized women specifically getting targeted
just because they just don't like it period and they
have nothing to do with creating the character other than
acting and typically acting the hell out of it. And
(32:27):
we love it and it had it been a standalone
people probably would not have never.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Had a second thought. But of course, yeah, we can't
have nice things.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
No, Yeah, well, speaking of speaking of social media, the
age of social media has led to this idea of anonymity,
which allows for individuals who in person may be they
may seem okay, but online feel very imbold in Tuesday
whatever whenever, without recourse, as we have learned through many
(32:59):
criticism of this podcast, this very podcast. And then I
used to have to answer these things on YouTube and
I'd be like, Hi, have a nice day or whatever,
and they'd be like wow, someone responded, I'm like, yeah,
some poor soul.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I don't read this.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yes, and all of this begs the question is this okay?
And what is our responsibility as a fan of something
or of someone. As young actresses and celebrities grow up,
the world watches their every move and oftentimes makes these judgments,
and they feel the need to do so through their keyboard,
(33:37):
thinking they won't be noticed or yeah, even like on
a podcast, start through other mediums like this, feel like
they can make these criticisms. It's okay. When fans and
critics become too familiar with the celebrity, we often forget
that they are yes, human, there is somebody there and
they deserve to be treated as such. Two women podcasters
(33:59):
felt the need to call Milling Bobby Brown a bitch
because they felt she just seemed that way. And again
that's sort of what got this idea.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah, yeah, this whole level, and honestly, there's so much
more to that, because we know there's this whole critic like,
she just seems to like people someone I wouldn't like.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
She just seems like it.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
That's fine, you don't have to like everybody, But what
does this need to call them in such a derogatory
manner without knowing them and instead of like just having
a moment of like I wonder, I wonder what kind
of pressures they are. I just keep them out of
your mouth, don't speak about them.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That's all it takes.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And speaking of criticism, that kind of just doesn't make
sense other than she's a woman that you don't want
to see in this I don't know. One of those
critics felt Carrie mulligan was not a good pick to
carry out the role of a film fatale character, even
though her performance in the movie Promising Young Women was
well received, and her hitting back at the criticism as
(34:50):
a sexist and even agist remark was actually countered with
another criticism as saying that that there is a right
to be able to criticize and critique a celebrities appearance
and actors appearance if it seems like they are miscast.
So I went through, we went through when we were
looking at this and speaking about this article, because it
(35:13):
was a pretty big deal. Kay, Mulligan came out pretty
strong and being like, Okay, we get it. You don't
like me as this cast, you don't believe me as
being the fat teale. That's on you. But why do
we need to go about this appearance thing. And I
even mentioned, like the article that was written in even
mentioned well, Margot Robbie was a producer. I'm sure it
wasn't intended for her, so obviously like a backhanded criticism.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
About her appearance.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
And then someone came in defense of that, not saying
necessarily that her looks should have been critiqued, but more
so that we as the audience, should be able to
say this probably wasn't cast right based on appearance, based
on looks, which seemed wasn't.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
The same to me.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
I kind of understood what they were going with this,
but at the same time, but this is this is
a little bit ages. Obviously what they wanted was the hot, blonde, tall,
young fatale that we have seen so often.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
And Kay Mulligan's not that old. No talk about that.
He he's not that old, So none of that makes
sense in itself.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
But of course they talked about, you know, women wouldn't
want to see, which was really odd Chris Hemsworth playing
a dowdy poet, and I was like, why not before
you what are you talking about. We've seen honky men
playing serious roles. We've seen ridiculous comedians being the serious,
(36:38):
filling guy, like I mean Jim Carrey won awards for
his serious roles, which you would never thought this slapstick
comedian could do and even seen as like a leading man,
So it kind of like, no, we don't have that.
Of course, she talked about the fact that we should
be able to say, have this critique so we could
(36:59):
open up for more different variations of looks to take.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Leading roles, but I don't feel like.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
That was where they were going with this, especially in
critiquing that specifically.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that we are much more forgiving
in general of men, whether it's perceiving them to be
a bitch or not. Like women have to be nice
and grateful they got this role right, and you have
to be because we have limited roles for women like
we have historically in Hollywood and the like. I believe
(37:32):
the average age for women winning an oscar like ten
years ago, so this might have changed. It was twenty
six and for a man it was fifty three. So wow,
I think we have like and by we, I mean
audiences have this idea of for women it is this
and it looks like this, and I can critique her
appearance because that's what women is about. For men, it
could be they could do anything but women. And I
(38:07):
know I've told this story before. I had I had
a for me, a pretty big break, pretty big role,
and the night I was supposed to shoot it, the
guy told me that one of the oh, I don't know,
one of the crew, he was like, it sucks to
be in an industry where it's all about your looks, right,
And I looked at him and I was like, what what?
(38:28):
And then they gave it to a man because he
was like, I think I think it'd be better. I
think it'd be more believable for a man did this.
I was like, what what?
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
And this most like that that you realize this is
not an easy industry in itself, that it's not set
up for just anyone, which is a whole different conversation. Yeah.
And then there's this debate of crossing boundaries, which that
dude cross a boundary, I would say, but I'm referencing
to celebrities. Is it okay to interrupt a celebrity during
(39:01):
a dinner for a photo? Is it okay to film
or take pics without their knowledge or permission? Can we
go into somebody's home without permission for souvenirs. Of course,
these are more rhetorical questions, but it has become less
and less acceptable to cross these boundaries, which is great,
But at the same time, we've seen a lot of
backlash for those who are private and seek to keep
(39:22):
it that way. So people who get upset if you've
been waiting at their hotel room and they don't want
to stop to talk to you, right, we get it,
like you love them and you feel like you have
this ideal of them. But if they're tired, they're tired,
and they should have the right to say that. We
saw recently Tom Hanks America Sweetheart, get very angry when
(39:45):
his wife and I don't know exactly what happened when
Rita Wilson, who is a celebrity as well also his.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Wife, but either tripped got pushed.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
There was a lot of conversation about what happened, and
he lost it and cursed that people to be like,
calm down off, And that's his right, that makes sense,
but he got a lot of backlash for it too,
Like he got both love and hate for that reaction,
and it kind of has that point of like, okay,
so what is this line how do we make sure
we don't cross those boundaries? But what is this line
(40:16):
of like, you're celebrity and this is kind of what happens.
And I know the kind of maybe this is just
making making it up seeing too many movies, like they
love it at first and then they hate it. Yeah,
so kind of those two things. And it seems like
it sometimes take drastic and extreme measures for people to
realize this, whether it's a tearful request to be given privacy,
(40:39):
so being like please leave me alone. Y'all have done
so much you like, really harassed us, Please stop to
almost into endangering their lives and being put in these
situations that are so extreme that that's the final point
of like, hey, you almost killed us tonight, Please don't
do this.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah. Yeah, it's that level of fan entitlement we've talked
about before where it's some it's kind of bizarre to me,
but it's like this idea that they owe us something.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Right, we put you here, right, and.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
It's sort of the price of your fame almost. It's
like you will you're rich and famous, so I get
to do whatever and I'll never forget. I saw this
interview with Jennifer Lawrence a couple of years ago, and
she was talking about visiting her family and she's like, well,
we had to put up all the you know, trash
bags of the windows. And I was like, wait what
She's like, oh, yeah, so we had to put up
every time I visit them, we put up trash bags
over the windows so they can't take pictures. She was
(41:33):
talking about like trying to explain that to the young
people and her family and just how bizarre, like that
sounds terrible to me, that sounds awful. We've also talked
about parasocial relationships a little bit before, and here we
can easily see how this can be good, can be
really great, or it can't be really really awful. And
(41:55):
as we said before, fans are powerful and deserve respect,
because yes, the power of fandom is no joke. You know,
we love some healthy fangirls over here, and they can
really really make things happen. That is or sure, the
Britney Stands are a force and we're able to keep
the conversation alive when so many people had written it
(42:17):
off around around Britney Spears and the conservatorship. But it
can also be a negative incidents where fans feel betrayed
by celebrity can be a real storm. Think of Hailey
Bieber after she and Justin got together, those who were
teams Lena have non stopped her, asked her for just
being with him. We've talked about that before, to the
(42:38):
point both she and Justin have repeatedly asked her fans
to stop and how it's been affecting them.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Both, right, And we've seen that in different celebrities, like
if they don't like the person you're with, they may
go after you. Of course, there's some conversations of like yeah,
but there's some that's like this is dangerous, this is
an unusual circumstance. We have questions kind of all of that,
but that I digress. I won't give any examples of that,
(43:05):
but but yeah, there's a lot when it comes to
all of these responsibilities and how we see celebrities in itself,
and especially when it comes to women, the expectations that
we hold, and it kind of makes you think, what
does the future hold? Is the future going to be
better for the next generation of stars and celebrities And yeah,
(43:27):
with the new mediums come new levels of stardom from
YouTube stars to TikTok stars, to whatever the next level
may be.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Twitch.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
I guess Twitch is already there. We are seeing a
whole different level of celebrity, and some experts have already
begun their studies in these types of celebrity. In an
Insider or article written by Rachel E. Greenspand, she talks
with psychologists and about the up and coming stars of
TikTok and the expectations. And in the article, greenspand rights
experts warned that these young influencers will face the typical
(43:59):
hurdles child fame, but with the additional complication of real
time social media surveillance by millions and an algorithmically programmed
addiction to the instant gratification of a never ending barrage
of notifications, which is my nightmare. I know those notifications
that go away.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
I think I can figure this out for you, smath.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
So we've already talked about the damages, how about early
childhood stardom and what that can cause? But add to
that the immediateness of social media, the total access provided
by the stars and by the fans, like they are
going to tell you immediately if they like or don't
like something.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yep, and it's the Internet, so it doesn't go away, right,
And this new level of stardom has brought out a
new generation of hopefuls who are waiting for their time
to go viral. Greenspan continues. The algorithms that underlie practically
every social media service today force us to compete for visibility.
These teenagers may now feel themselves an extraordinary bind, competing
(44:58):
against each other and the newspeed algorith in order to
maintain visibility, a competition in which only the social media
services succeed. The concept of viral social media fame has
become so ingrained in our society that it's almost natural
for people to hope their next post will take off,
and some of the newly made celebrities have already learned
(45:18):
about the backlash of fame. Many under the cancel culture,
a narrative due to the extreme or impulsive natures of
their posts, have learned this lesson, have seen it, have
experienced it, but they are also learning how to handle it.
Greenspan continues. Many influencers have already, perhaps unintentionally, discovered what
experts say is the best way to protect oneself against
(45:39):
the dangers of fame by using influence to help the
world and raise awareness about causes you're passionate about. You're
actually establishing a deeper sense of who you are as
a person.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Right, and I am interested to see what the statistics
will look like. We again did not talk about reality
stars and young stars, because there has been this conversation
about the sexualization of young girls in these videos as
well as infantalizing some of the girls who were no
longer young younger.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Jojo Sawa was one.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
Of those who got criticisms on both ends when she
was growing up, but yet still kept the ponytail to
finally coming out and finding relationships and growing in ourselves
and being criticized for that. Like, it's just a whole
new level of stardom that we've never seen that is
produced again by the pressures of oftentimes family and society.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
That part has seemingly not gone away.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, And I think the the Internet. I mean, we
talk about it all the time on here, and Bridgett
does such a great job of breaking it down. There's many,
many beautiful things about the Internet, but in a lot
of ways, like those comment sections can be just like
every toxic thing in our society amplified right, So we're
already getting as young girls all of these really harmful
(47:01):
messages about our body and how you should look and
how we should behave and then if you multiply that
by social media, I can only imagine being young and
absorbing that and seeing that. Right.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
You know, the double edged sword to this is we
have more body positive influencers and that's beautiful and I'd
love to see it. Half the time they're defending their
body and their videos because there's so many that still
continue to attack them and continue to really harass them.
So it feels kind of like, yes, this is great,
but at the same time, oh my god, they still
(47:36):
have to keep going through all of this and still
have to be in this position to take this kind
of abuse.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
It's interesting. I'm interested in seeing how this goes.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
I think what we really wanted to do about this
and I didn't get to it, Like the honest title
was going to be the villainization of young teenage stars,
but we couldn't even find enough articles because there are
so many other things that seem to be traumatizing and
triggering for a lot of these celebrities that we haven't considered.
Of course, you know this goes into that like, well,
(48:08):
at least they have all of these basic necessities and
all of these things, and most of the people were
talking about our young white girls. Yeah, and that's unfortunate
because we don't even we have to go climb a
whole new level of toxicity when it comes to the
black young black girls who are going through so much
that they don't even get the chance to become that
(48:30):
half the time because of the racism that is so
staunch and so heavy here. So we know this is
that level of conversation, but there's a lot to consider
when we see what is happening, especially for myself as
a social worker who worked with young kids, seeing this
is such a problem in such a big way. But
at the same time, you hope it changes, but historically
(48:52):
it doesn't seem to be.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Yeah, yeah, And I think a part of this it
goes back to something you said earlier, Samantha's it's very
clear that we again as a society, view women as
expendable and we kind of their misery is our entertainment
and that's fine, and we feel very entitled as a society. Again,
(49:15):
I'm not speaking about Smith then, I but you know,
we as a society feel very entitled to cause harm,
to like really judge everything they do and then throw
them away when they experience any sort of trauma or
anything that doesn't fit in how we think they should
behave and how they should look.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, and I mean that's that's up to like even
Harvey Winstein. Like the fact that went on so long, right,
that's pretty telling. Yeah. Yeah, so there is a lot
to there's a lot to un back here. Yes, yes,
there is. Well. Listeners as always, if there's anything you
want us to follow up on in here, if there
(49:54):
is resources, we haven't shut it out. If you have
a favorite Mary Kate and Ashley movie, you can't let
us know.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Do you want to talk to me about musicals? I
don't think anyone does.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
I think I don't think anyone read out about Mary
Kate Ashley. But you could prove us all or wrong. Listeners.
Our email is Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
or on Instagram at Stefon'll Never hold You. Thanks as
always to our super producer Christina, with bonus thanks this
week to researcher Joey and our executive producer Maya. It's
(50:27):
really badass group of guys.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Y'all are the heroes. Yes helped us with this so much.
Shout out.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yes all the shout outs and thanks to you for listening.
Stuffner tell you protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
from iHeart Radio, if you can visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts or regul listen to your favorite shows.
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