August 8, 2026 • 72 mins
The fabulous author and journalist E. Jean Carroll joins us to talk about her lawsuits against Donald Trump, her book 'Not my Type: One Woman vs. a President' and the power of laughter. We're bringing this classic back with an important and joyful update.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm welcome to stuff I never told you production if
I heard you, and today we have I would say
a special classic to bring back. And this is a
rare instance we've heart. I don't think we've ever done
this before, but we're bringing back a classic that we've
(00:29):
already brought back and recently. But there's a pretty big
reason for why, right, Samantha.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Yes to my delight. As I was doing my daily
doom scrolling a week or two ago, I saw a
post saying that this day is a day for celebration
as e Gen Carrol, who we had on the show,
whose interviews coming up, was actually awarded the money that
she had won through civil lawsuit against Donald Trump. And
(00:58):
this is from scottis Blog. They wrote two weeks after
the Supreme Court declined to hear President Donald Trump's appeal
of a five million dollar jury verdict entered against him
in a sexual abuse and defamation case filed by Eagen Carol.
Carol collected that payment plus interest, according to court records
and her legal team.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
So our girl, yes, I said, our girl has gotten
some because this is one of nick a few lawsuits.
But some of her money and that is that five
million plus interest. Yes, everybody clap. So of course we
had to celebrate by bringing back this classic because she
is amazing and every time I think of her, my
(01:41):
heart just swells just ten times bigger knowing she's still
out there doing the Lord's work.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yes, same every time I see her in the news,
I'm like, you better win this, like the people better
decide with you, and they did.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
And just overall, y'all, she is as iconic as you
would imagine.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yes, it's a fantastic interview, so please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,
this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff on
Never Told You productive Iyheart Radio. Before we get into
(02:26):
today's episode, just a quick content warning or we're just
going to be discussing some topics around sexual assaults. I
feel like Donald Trump is kind of a warning in
it himself. But the book we're talking about today at
large does go into it. Highly recommend you read it.
Don't we barely touch the surface. There's so much that
(02:47):
we didn't get to talk about in this conversation, so.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Go check it out.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
But just know that that is something that is in there.
And today we are so excited to be joined by
journalist and author of the New York Times best selling
book Not My Type One Woman Versus the President, Egene Carroll.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yay exactly.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yes, I'm just glad to see that you are here.
I hear you've been on jury duty.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I yes, I was.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I actually tried to look up the case because I
did get dismissed. They didn't like me enough or they
were afraid of me, one of the two things.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So I got dismissed.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
What was the case? What was the case?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
It was malicious murder and a lot of felonies with that.
So it was a shooting that happened here in Decatur
slash Atlanta. So I was it was going to be
at least a five day trial, We're pretty sure.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
But at least yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So I was like, hey, so our jury, Yeah, our
initial jury questioning took two days and they didn't even
finish with us. They were just like, okay, wow, we
got at least forty something out of the sixty. We'll
see if we can pick from there. So it was
it was definitely a lot longer than I anticipated. And
that was actually my first time at being present, like
(04:07):
I usually get dismissed before, so after the questioning, I
don't think they liked the fact that I said I
was on a podcast for.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Inter social feminism.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Immediate dismissal, immediate, Right, So what else did they ask you?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
But asked me about that? It was really kind of
funny because you know how they ask about jobs. They're
like podcaster, you know, with like kind of a doubt,
and I was like, yeah, I understand, it's a job,
I promise, but I had experienced as a social worker
in like the Department of General Justice, as well as
investigating cal the abuse.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
So they were like, yeah, all of that, we're just
gonna go.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Unless oh boy, oh no, the prosecutor was extremely smart,
I want to put you on the jury.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I don't know if they argued about me.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
There was a lot of bet they did.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (05:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
What was the racial makeup of the people who showed
up for jury duty?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
It was actually pretty mixed in race, because I think
there was like the least amount was Asian people and
Latina people, but there was a lot of very heavy
like black community base, especially in that area, as well
as white. So essentially I think it's good more more
black community than any other demographic. Yeah, decatury kind of
(05:27):
it kind of hits that way, right, But yeah, and
I see what you're doing. I see you're questioning me
and using your interview skills over here. This is not
this is not this episode, ma'am.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
No, ma'am.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
It's just jury's are fascinating.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
They are. You're right, it was. It was interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I was kind of both of those, like, I don't
have time for this, and the thought of being on
this type of trial really makes me a little ansious,
So I didn't want to be on it.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
But at the same time, I'm still curious and.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I kind of want to know how that played out,
and especially knowing the jurors, like we had enough time
to all talk about our thoughts, and I was like, oh,
this is going to be an interesting makeup.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
I'm interested in jury's of course, because we before first
trial against Donald Trump, we had something called mock jury's.
Oh really, this is jury ECUs a big, big cases
where a lot is at stake, And there was a
lot at steak because I had sued the sitting president
of the United States, right, and so it's my jories
(06:27):
of where you present your arguments to twenty seven typical
jurors to see if your arguments are working. You know,
you don't quite yeah, you know. So we put on
an entire trial in find a twenty seven typical New
York is in a big ballroom in downtown New York.
(06:51):
We put on witnesses, we had videotapes, we had someone representing,
We had Donald Trump represented by one of our lawyers
who played Joe Takapeta, the great criminal defense lawyer. And
(07:13):
the case went. We thought the arguments were brilliant. And
then the twenty seven typical New York jerors met to
discuss the cases, and they were divided into three of
nine each. And here's what they decided. They all agreed that, yes,
two people could end up in a dressing room in
(07:35):
Bergdorf Goodman. Yes, and yes, they agreed that two people
could involve involve themselves in something sexual in a dressing
room in Bergdorf Goodman in nineteen ninety six. And they
agreed that the two people in the dressing room and
Bergdorf Goodman were Donald Trump and Ejan Carroll. But what
(07:58):
they all thought was that I was begging him for it,
all of them pretty much. Wow, pretty much all the men,
pretty much of the men. Now, it was that it
was because I was They saw me on videotape and
(08:20):
a deposition I was too old, too dissiccated, too much
of an old crone that they couldn't imagine what it
was like in nineteen ninety six. Sequence is. So then
we had to redo my hair like it was in
ninety six, to the makeup like it was in ninety six.
I wore clothes that I actually owned and wore in
nineteen ninety six. And so that's what we did, and
(08:42):
we found out our arguments were way off. We thought
we were doing a case for all women, right. We thought,
you know this is going to be where this is.
You know, powerful men may not always be believed. Perhaps
so woman has a story. Oh no, uh uh no.
(09:03):
The gender divide is as strong as ever in this country.
We found out. And Robbie Kaplan, the great you know,
legal mind of generation, my attorney, said, from now on,
this case is not for all a woman, Jean, this
case is about you and Donald Trump. And he lied, right.
(09:26):
So that's why I'm so fascinated with jerrys.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
I mean, I mean isn't. It's just fascinated.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
It is.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
We had the best case of the world. They didn't.
They didn't see it because I'm too old, too old,
too ugly.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
So yeah, and you did an amazing job in opening
this because yes, you essentially had that as an introduction
for this amazing book before we start, because we did
mention who you were and what we're specifically talking about today.
But I think people you really don't need that big
of an introduction. The minute I saw your name in
(10:03):
our email, I was like, yes, yes, yes, we need
to talk to her immediately, but can you introduce yourself
to our listeners just in case?
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Well, how do you do? How do you do? I'm
Eg and Carol. I'm a journalist, the journalist for fifty years.
I was an advice columnist for Elle for twenty seven years,
and I've led a really fascinating, wonderful and incredible life.
(10:33):
I was missed cheerleader USA, and I happen to suit well, okay,
I happen to be the only person on the planet
to have beaten Donald Trump twice.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
The balloons are amazing. I'm so in love with that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Guest listeners, their balloons happening in the back.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Oh. I there's so much to your life story that
I really there's so many things that we could talk about,
and I really hope we can be friends enough that
you want to come on to our show again so
that we can have a deep dive about your life
and all the things that you've experienced just alone and
like your vice columns, and because you were kind of
the beginning with the many others to like talk about
(11:23):
what it is to have a call based on people
asking you for your advice. You talk about therapists asking
you for your advice. So we want to have you
on for so much more. So please, if you have
any free time and you want to hang out with
two lonely girls in the South, we need to come
back on for more.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
But now, why, why would anybody want to come on
the show of two women who have decided to do
a podcast every single day of the week. Who are you?
Why would you do every day? That's a great question,
is true.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
One must ponder that before accepting our offer.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Do fill one of those spaces up again?
Speaker 4 (12:09):
That's true, It's amazing, it's a huge accomplishment. Then people
get addicted to you, and then they've got to hear it.
You know, you become part of their day. So that's
in a way very wise.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Very yeah, you know, kind of like the whole jury divide.
I think there's a love and hate for us.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Let me ask you, do you run out of things
to say? We haven't yet.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, And I think with the way in the state
of the world, Oh, there's other things at least we
can update because we have to constantly update because of
the way things have changed so quickly, and as long
as we have the freedom to do so, we will.
Much like having you on the show, which we are
so privileged to have you on this show.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
But yeah, like right now.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
We have to kind of go into the darkness, if
you will. But there's plenty there in that darkness. I
don't want to go hard on time and trying to
find the optimistic point of view.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
So it must be amazing that you had to really
start turning towards the dark because I know you two
don't necessarily that's not your life vision.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
No, no, no, it's not.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
I've been doing this.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
I've been on this podcast either as a producer or
editor since twenty ten.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Way minute twenty ten ten, I didn't.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Start as a host until like, I think twenty eighteen. Wow,
but I was producing, editing, and so seeing like the
timeline of how things have changed in this space has
been really really.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Wild, particularly the road that women have taken since twenty ten. Yes, yes, indeed.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Well, one thing we wanted to talk about before we
get in to your book more in depth is that
you do have this really.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Varied writing career.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
You've written for SNL, You're a contributing editor for Playboy,
the Advice Column ask Egene, numerous books. You've had a
lot of adventures doing it. How did you get into writing?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
When I was twelve, I sent off my first pitch
letter to the series of Robut catalogs. I had an
idea for a story. I just I was raised in
a house full of magazines. One of the high points
in my childhood was my father coming home waiving Time
(14:42):
Magazine and saying they've published my letter in Time Magazine,
And the whole street where we lived was like, oh
my god, Tom Carl's got his letter publishing Time Magazine.
So I thought, wow, this is pretty exciting being in
(15:03):
a magazine, right, So that's sort of what I wanted
to do. And I spent twenty five years after pitching
the series in Roebuck Caalog at the asy, Joe, took
me twenty five years to get in my first magazine,
twenty five years. Can you imagine the hideous ambition drive
(15:27):
lust to be a magazine that would drive some poor
woman twenty five years through no, no, no, no, the
blizzard of nos from New York editor. I never got
a yes. I never got a yes. And then in Esquire,
a woman named Marilyn Johnson picked my poor Manila envelope
(15:52):
off the top of their slush pile. And Esquire at
the time was the just the brilliant literary magazine in
the country. And there's slushbot. I have pictures. We're five
and six feet tall, that's how tall. They're slush wrong
and she having to pick it off, and she called
(16:12):
me and they accepted it. So that's all I needed
to get in, you know. Once I was in, you know,
once you're in, you're in. And I got my big
size of loving shoe in that Esquire door, and that's
all I needed.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Like there's so many questions. I have a feeling this
is going to be a long interview. Because every time
you kept give us like such great storytelling information, I
have like more questions that.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Come off of that.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So so hopefully we can get through this from the
hour A lot it to us. If not, I'm telling
you we want you to come back.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
But all of that to say, how did you deal?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
What's twenty five? What made you keep going? Within like
having twenty five years of a projection? Because I'm one
of those that like you hurt my feelings on my
just leave that life enough for me of a rejection,
but you pushed through and that's a dedication in itself.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
How what what made you keep going?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
The glamorous life of a magazine writer was is almost
unimanageable today. To work for a magazine meant you had
the ticket. They would send you anywhere in the world
to write about people you had never met, would never
see again, about some subjects you knew nothing about, and
they would send you away and you would get it
(17:33):
was the life was so adventuresome and so glamorous that
I couldn't help but want to just be right in
the middle of everything. And it turned out to be true.
It turned out to be it turned out I mean,
I mean the off days in you know, the eighties,
(17:55):
at the peak of magazine Glamor, running down the boulevards
at three point thirty in the morning, you know, getting
eating a French onion soup at four in the morning.
You know, just going just it's just you just banging
on life. It's ship ring on every bell. And there
are several books out right now about the Glamour's eighties magazine,
(18:19):
the Graydon Carter biography. There's one now about Condie Mask
coming out. But it really was. It was romantic and uh,
you know it was. It was a stupendous stupendous Unfortunately,
now do you know what our new magazines are. Our
(18:41):
new magazines are now podcasts. That's what the new magazines are.
That's it that the podcasts have taken over. Well, I
think it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I think it's pretty cool an interesting format. I will
say for sure, I want the Glamorers part because I
think your life story, your career story, where's your HBO series?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
You need one. You need it just to.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Tell the people out there and if someone does pick
it up, I want I want a personage.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I need it.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
That's smart, that's smart.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
My name I'll here y'all.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Okay Again, Like I said, I have a feeling we're
gonna have so much to talk about, and I'm going
to try to focus.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I promise I'm gonna try to focus in your book,
not my type.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
One woman versus a President, which, by the way, what
a title delves into your two lawsuits against Donald Trump.
So before we get into the specifics, could you break
down the lawsuits so we and the audience are all
on the same page. Annoying, especially what you thought of
with the lawsuit and everything else.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Could you break that down for us?
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Very simple. Nineteen ninety six, Donald Trump and I ran
into each other in front of Bergdorf Goodman. Bergdorf Goodman
is a luxury department. It's not a department store. It's
a specialty shore. It's like no other store on the
base of the earth. It's a mansion at seven floors,
and it's just brillant. He asked me to help him
(20:21):
find a gift for a friend. I was delighted that
that was my job. That's my business, I advised people.
So it turned very dark when we got to the
sixth floor, and it was so bad that I stayed
(20:43):
silent about it for almost thirty years and then the
Weinstein story hit the cover of the New York Times.
Remember that, and the waves of women standing up and
telling their story. I just said, well, I am the
(21:06):
biggest hypocrite of all time. God damn it, that's seventy
game five. I'm not going to be silent any longer.
And I told my story. He when it hit, It
was on the cover of New York magazine, when it
(21:26):
hit for three straight days from the White House, he
called me a liar, and he said I was a
liar twenty six different times. I knew there would be
a ruckus I had. I was no, I was not
at all prepared for what for that? And at a
party at Molly jong Fast, who you should also have
(21:49):
on your podcast. She just wrote a great book about
her mother. I ran into George Conway, of all people,
and George was the first person to actually tell me
about possibly something called a lawsuit. George was, of course,
(22:10):
as a famous lawyer in his own right. He went
to he was, you know, five bigger capitin from Harvard.
He went to Yale Law School, he started the Lincoln Project,
and he explained to me what a lawsuit is nobody'd
ever really taken the time, and he said, actually he
wrote a piece about it in the Washington Post that
(22:33):
George was a famous Republican by the time. At the party,
he had written a big op ed in the Washington
Post to his fellow Republicans saying, if you believe Jannita Broadrick,
remember why Nita Brodrick is a woman who claimed that
President Clinton had raped her. So George's op ed piece was,
(22:58):
if you believe one Nita Broadrick, you gotta believe Egene
Carol because she has a better case, a stronger case.
So I went over to thank him, and then that's
when he explained that.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
I had a lawsuit, and it was I never thought
of lawsuit, so I was not thinking of loss of
other people are saying are you going to sue?
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Are you going to sue? And I it would just
it would not mean anything because I didn't even know
what that meant. So he said, and I may be
able to help. Think of someone to help you. And
the next day here's an email saying introductory email and
there were two words, Robbie kaplan. It was like a
(23:51):
bomb going off, because you know, Robbie at that time
was just trouncing the Nazis in Charlottesville. She'd open the
way to gay rights in a Mayerica America with Windsor.
She was really, she really is one of the great
legal minds that's ever practiced law in the whole United States.
So we met two days later and that was it.
(24:14):
I knew the minute I shook her hand that this
is what I wanted to do. So we sued him
for defamation. We see the sitting president for defamation. That
started a long trip and suit him for defamation. He
asked the DOJ to step in and to pay his
(24:34):
legal bills and represented him well. That case was stopped.
A second case, I sued him again for sexual abuse
because New York State passed something called the Adult Survivors Act.
So then midnight on Thanksgiving I sued him again for
(24:55):
sexual assault. So now we have two suits. Okay, with
sexual assault and defamation went first. That we won unanimous
jury said Trump was liable for sexual abuse and defamation.
We totally won that. Two days later, after we won,
(25:15):
Trump went on the CNN town hall and re said
and redid everything. He had just paid me five million
dollars because he said in the person. So I sued
him again and that became that that was added to
the first suit. So the second trial was only about damages.
(25:37):
We had proved there was sexual assault, so we didn't
need what now. It was about damage done to me.
And that was the big trial, and he misbehaved every
single It was wonderful just to see him in court.
Oh my god, the apricot makeup, the hair done up
(25:59):
like Barbara Stanwick in Ballifire, I mean, the antics. It
was an incredible It was just an After each day's
trial he would go out and say, this is a
travesty of judge. I deserve I deserve the damage she
hurt me. Why you know why? Why? So So that
(26:22):
was the second trial, and that when we won, and
he's being made to pay eighty three point three million
dollars for his lives and the damage he did to
me because he killed my reputation.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
He just killed it, right, And I know just last
month he lost the appeal to that, which is even
more glorious to see.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
No, he always loses the appeals. He loses every single aval.
He must be exhausted from losing. I mean he must,
he just must, see Robbie Caplan's face and just fake
from fear because he cannot He cannot win this case.
He cannot win it. He's exhausted, the appeals on the
first truck, the five million dollar drought, He's lost all that.
(27:05):
The only thing he can do now is go to
the Supreme Court. He has sixty days to go and
he hasn't gone yet. So I don't know what he's
I don't think. Well, wait a minute, Annie Samanthy, what
do you think do you think this Supreme Court is
going to want to hear a case where the President
of the United States, who they all apparently worship, sexual
(27:30):
abuse of women? Do do you think they want to
hear that case?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Want to hear?
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I mean would they hear?
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I don't because there's too much I don't Trump, You're
trying to get me in trouble. There's a lot to
be said that this Supreme Court, especially the way he
is stacked, is there purposely and for a reason, and
it's for Trump's advantage. So I think, like I would
(28:01):
hesitate saying that, I don't think they would want to
hear it, but I don't think they would completely dismiss it.
So who knows? Who knows because also we're not legal.
I'm not a legal person, so.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
That you know you're but you're a highly intelligent person.
It doesn't make sense that during these Epstein days that
they would hear anything.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
And that's the other question to that is if he does,
well that open it up, because you mentioned that in
your book and about the fact that you had that
as like in your back pocket. That could be like,
if he was smart about it, I would think that
he especially because he's I feel like he's done everything
he can try to suppress that information. So this seems
(28:41):
like if you were But then again, I don't know
the level of intelligence, I don't kindly that I'm going trouble.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Well, maybe that the level of intelligences they may want
to help him when.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Right right, Well, also, like I said, the level in
touches are like this may get view and avenue to
open up all of that.
Speaker 7 (29:02):
Both questions about oh it would not yes, exactly, it
would not be smart because their only argument, I here,
do you know what Trump's argument is on this case?
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Tell me, oh boy, you're not gonna believe it. You
are not going to believe it. Trump is saying, because
one of my witnesses. Remember I had eleven witnesses at
the first trial, which is unusual because there are usually
never any witnesses when sexual assault takes places. Well, we
(29:34):
had eleven witnesses. One of those witnesses was Jessica Leads
and you remember her. She was the woman who he
assaulted on the airplane in nineteen eighty. Okay, and he's
always denied it, and there are cases that she should
(30:00):
not have been a witness. Are you ready for this?
You better grip your deaths. You got a grip, because
I don't want you to fall to the floor. Okay.
Their argument is she should not have been allowed to
be a witness because when he assaulted her in nineteen eighty,
assaulting a woman on an airplane was not a crime
(30:23):
in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
A feeling you're gonna say that.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Because in the air yeah, oh my gosh, I thought
it was going to be that she should have had
her own case, which is also pretty damning.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
I can I feel like that.
Speaker 6 (30:40):
That's how they're thinking, that's how that So this is
why I say I go back and forth, like I
would say, rationally he should not, but then again, his
ego as well as the fact that, yes, he's he.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Will continue to lose to you in order to try
to win, which is also a thing.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
But right now, cool, that's that's I like that. I
like that. Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah, I'm just saying that there's so much to that.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
That that's like he is one of those and then
his team whatever whatnot.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
He's got the lawyers in the country, you know, he's
maybe money from. Yeah, they they're all now Alena Hobbe
is now as you know, attorney general. You know, Joe
Takapina goes on to his attorneys are all Okay, Alena
Habba Esquire doesn't know Diddley squat about the law. Okay,
(31:39):
we understand that. We understand that. But she's brilliant. She's
a great politician, mark my words. She will be running
percentate soon. She is. And she's got the stuff. She's
got beauty, brains, confidence, she can do it all. She
just doesn't know anything about the law anything.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
You know. It doesn't sound like a requirement needed for
any of those decisions at this point in time.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
There's a lot of things about Trump's, like people in
his orbit that I'm like, this is just you want
someone who looks a certain way and who loves you,
and so a lot of what I was reading in
the book I felt was less about the law and
more that they were trying to play on people's ideas
(32:37):
about sexual assault or people's ideas like these things they
know have worked, but they're not like actually using a
good law case, like they're just playing to these ideas
and the jury. Which one of the things that stuck
out to me is you do start the book and
(32:57):
you say, you know, I want you to be as
discombobulated as I was during this whole process, and you
can just see transcripts of the questions you got asked,
and it was very telling of what they were trying
to paint, the story they were trying to tell. And
I think the title you know, not my type. You
(33:18):
talked about that a little bit more a little bit earlier,
but that's something we've discussed. We've been very open about
our own experiences with sexual assaults, and one of the
things with mine was that the first one of the
first things I thought was, no one's going to believe
me because I'm not pretty enough.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
I never believe it.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
And you talk about that in the book where you say,
you wrote, nobody's going to believe an eighty year old
woman was ever attractive enough to assault. So can you
talk about that and why you titled the book that.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Well, the title is It's just too delicious because he
was sitting at the what's the famous desk called the
what's his the desk? Yeah, he was sitting at the
resolute desk when reporters from the Hill asked him about
this assault and he said to the reporters from the
(34:16):
White House, as president, she's not my type. Okay. Then
missus Robbie Kaplan gets him in a deposition. She's at
Mary Lago and he's on camera and everybody's recording him,
(34:37):
and he she gets in to say several times that
he has been shown a photograph of me. She tells
him three times she is about to show him a
photograph of the playtip e gen Carrol. She's fair, but
(34:57):
she's like Odessus. She just lays trap after a trap,
and like the cyclops, poor old Trump is gonna fall
into most of those things. So, after telling him three
times she's gonna show, she shoves a nice black and
white photo across to him. He's got four people in it.
(35:18):
She says, can you identify the people in this photograph?
Immediately he says, that's John Johnson. Why John Johnson is
on TV. That's the first person. He's my ex husband.
Great guy. Then he slides past Ivana. He says, I
don't know who that is, and then he points right
(35:39):
at me. He says that's Marla, and Mama said, you're
saying that. He says, yes, yeah, that's my wife. Then
Haba lips in says no, that's Carol, and then Trump
(36:00):
says uh huh not and nods, and then he says,
about seven seconds later, but the photo is blory. The photo,
of course, is as clear as just It's just crystal
and clear. So it was odd if you see pictures
of Marla and me from the time we are, it's
(36:24):
difficult to tell us apart. I mean, it's really a
strange thing. So most attorneys at that point would have said,
look it's over, you've got no case. I mean, that's it.
That's but he of course went on and so the
(36:45):
not my type thing is so he says, not my type,
and then he says, yes, that's smart. So of course
I'm going to title the book not my Type because
he's not my type. He is not my type. And
I don't think he's your type. Annie, I don't think
he's your tribe. Samantha, I don't think he's our type,
(37:05):
do you. No, No, I don't know. We need to
hear from your listeners. We need to hear from listeners.
Is Dowald Trump your type? I don't know. It's down
Trump your type. Seriously, I'm a little nauseated.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
We can't talk about this in context of the human.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
No, No, can I just say for the listeners, I
have them on camera. They're both looking like they're well,
I don't know. They're holding their hands over their mouths
O them. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
You're trying to get us in trouble for what you do.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Well, okay, so you already talked about your mock jury
and the outcome of that trial and how it was like, okay,
now we have to change our argument. As a part
of this, you tried to recreate how you looked at
the time. You even hunted down the hairstylist who gave
you the bob You recreated outfits, right, Can you explain
(38:28):
why that was so important?
Speaker 4 (38:31):
I had to give the jury of an echo of
the woman that was attacked in Brodors. They couldn't see
it from me just sitting there. So we had to
create the look, the same look that I had in
nineteen ninety six, And so when they held up pictures
of me in nineteen ninety six, they could really put
(38:53):
it together with the woman who was sitting at the
plaintiff's table. Because we were against a force so large
and so powerful, the only thing that could fight that
borus was fact. And that's what that's what we use.
Fact she is okay, they could see, okay, there's a
(39:17):
dim echo of the woman that we're talking about here.
That's what we had to go with.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That's such an odd situation in prepping for our trials,
is that you have to play or look the part
in order to be of course, a believed, be even
heard at any point in time. Into that you have
to go through the most invasive questions that seems nonsensical
(39:44):
half the time, like why are we even talking about this?
My personal life has nothing to do with that specific incident.
And at one point, I know the Trump team asked
you about your lovers, like they needed to go through
a whole list and even descriptors of people. And by
the way, we just recently had an episode about zuobale Zoo.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
So when Ben Vereen came on your list, I was like, wait, what,
wait what.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
I did?
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I was like, I was like what Ben Veren? I
just talked about him anyway, moving on with a wow.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I was just like, it just made me made me
my fuck and you were able to respond with detail. Unfortunately,
because they kept asking you things like all of that
seems so over the top in any like this has
nothing to do with anything. But with all of that, A,
how were you able to go through and honestly do
(40:42):
this type of interview? Uh, with the humor that you
were able to insert into this book, because that in
itself made me die a little bit. Just the thought
of having to replay, like tell about my personal life
to talk about a really horrific incident. A. I'm like,
wait what and then you did it with such finesse
(41:05):
in the book, but also just being able to do
it seemingly respectfully to them and just what it wasn't
like to go through that type of questioning.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Talking about my lovers was one of the most fabulous
moments I got to enjoy it. I loved it. I
love talking about my lovers. I love it. You want
to talk about my lovers of Lena Square, let's talk
about me.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
You literally gave the accolades.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
I started off with a gold medal, Olympic world record
holding butterfly jam. You know, so it was. It was
the one moment in that deposition when I felt I
was flying with happiness. Said we lifted the whole room.
It was fantastic. It was just yeah, she asked me questions.
(41:59):
Elena asked, why asking questions like that to shame me,
to you Millia, to make me look like a fluozy.
But you know, it made no sense. Why is she
asking me about my lovers when they say he wasn't
even there, when they say it didn't even happen. So
(42:23):
the minute she's starting to ask me about my lovers,
I know that she knows that she knows he was
there right at Bourg views. So that really the absurdity
of the truph. So the book is comic, a high
comp high comedy, because it's absurd. If he wasn't there,
(42:49):
why are they asking me why I didn't scream? Did
that make sense? Didn't make sense? Is it absurd? Yes,
is it funny, Yes, it's funny. You know, you don't
tear apart a woman, you know, for not screaming when
he wasn't there. So yeah, that's why the book is finne.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Right, And the level of like humor that you do
put in this does kind of also reflecting like the
moments of seeing what's going on that you can't help
but just laugh about the absurdity of it all. And
that's one of the things that really really push you
about in that moment of like you not realizing the
ill intent that was about to happen. And we like
(43:36):
we talk about this all the time, and we've gotten
criticized by listeners, by men specifically saying that we as
a host giggle too much because we do talk about
a lot of serious things, and our response is to
kind of laugh at it because we can't do anything else.
It feels like it feels like if we don't laugh
at it, we might fall apart, or it just feels
like we have to look at the absurdity beyond what's
(43:57):
right in front of us, because if we don't, none
of it would make sense. Note that it makes sense anyway,
but at least we can find a little like calming
in laughter, which has a lot.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
Of their keep it up and keep it up, keep
it up there, so one, that's one of our great weapons. Exactly.
They don't like to be laughed at. Exactly, keep laughing, ladies,
keep laughing, go for it. Keep it up. That you're
being criticized as a good sign. That's a good sign.
Do not stop with the giggling, and do not stop
(44:28):
with the laughing, please, it's a show of strength and confidence.
That you can laugh shows that you are not looking
dead like you know, what's happening is flattening out the country.
Because if you're laughing, that is a good sign. It's
a sign of strength. Do not stop it.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Jesus, come on, take this audio clip and put it
somewhere in my like affirmations. But this is this is
something Trump's lawyer made a big deal about and that
they try to try to use against you that you
laughed instead of screening. Why do you think they focused
so much on that. Maybe you just said it because
it is a strength, But why do you think they
focused so hard and was hoping that that would discredit
(45:08):
you somehow.
Speaker 4 (45:09):
Well, they've now set winning back fifty years fifty years
taking away our rights. So of course their argument is
going to come from the seventeenth century or this fifteenth century,
or from the Bible. Actually, they're going to go two
thousand years back, and I better have being screamed or
(45:34):
I'm lying. That is one of the oldest arguments. Actually
it's in the Bible. So it's just the Republican way
of seeing women. And Joe Takapino in one of the
great criminal defense lawyers. He got Asap Rocky Off, he
got Michael jacksonall acquitted, he got the Sopranos killer killer Off,
(45:59):
he got the guy who bludgeoned Natalie Holloway down in
a room, but got him out of jail for like
nine years. He's one of the great criminal defense lawyers.
Donald Trump of course hires him because Donald Trump Trump
has committed a crime, so criminal defense lawyer. And I
(46:19):
think that Joe Taccapino was smart enough not to do
this old argument because Joe has daughters. Joe knows better.
I think Trump was telling him what to argue. I
think Trump was telling him from what I hear reported
about Trump, you know, telling his a lawyer. Well, actually
(46:40):
I heard him every single day telling Elena Hobbitt what
to say, what to do. So I think he must
have done that with Joe Tacopina, and I think that
was Trump's argument. I don't think that was Joe Tacopina's argument.
I think Joe Tacopina was doing what his client wanted
him to do. They beat up I mean for not
going to the police. Oh my god, has he ever
(47:00):
met a woman. I mean, a woman knows if she
goes to the police, some man may retaliate. Correct, the
woman may lose her job. Correct, she may not be
able to feed her family. I mean, that's why you
don't go to the police. They don't want She doesn't
(47:20):
want her family to find out who's the police will
be talking to everybody. Her life is basically, you go
to the police, forget your life going on ever again.
But if you don't go to the police, if you
stay quiet, no they don't know about it, and your
life can go on. These are the decisions that women
are forcing in the making when they're assaulted and then
(47:41):
to be banged on for not going to the police.
I just I was amazed at the ignorance. But it's
not ignorance, it's a you of women.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Right right, And it's still in today with like if
she really was scared, if she really did go through
these things, you would go to the police and yeah,
have you seen the police state?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
They probably wouldn't even taken that case.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
They probably would have just been like, oh, we'll take
care of it and let you walked out. Like the
amount of like question and especially the fact that it's
happening today in nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
What were you wearing, what were you doing? Did you
go in with him alone?
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Just saying that you were at the store with him
would probably be like, no, you don't have a case,
and I would have dismissed it.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
There's nothing.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
The minute I read those sentences from him, I was angry.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
I was like, what the hell are you talking about?
Do you not know about?
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Like the amount of cases that actually never go in
front of the court ever when they are reported.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Oh no, it's only out of a thousand cases, it's
out of a thousand, it's only that go to trial
and the man is convicted. I think a thousand. I
think five, Yeah, convicted, I think a single digit number
for sure. Yeah, No, it's it's shock.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Yeah exactly exactly which is, which is amazing because we've
had episodes when we talked about Me too era, like
that's kind of how we started as a duo, talking
about you know, triggers and trauma warnings and why things
like this, especially in the Me Too era, was important.
But we also talked about the importance of civil lawsuits
and how they are most of the time the only
(49:15):
way to get any justice anyway. In the sexual assault cases,
they're sexual haress.
Speaker 4 (49:20):
But nobody has enough money to do the thing.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
And they don't even know how to do that.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yeah, there's so much to that conversation about why and
then also just in the like ideal of suing immediately
gets pitched as she's a gold digger, she's a money
immediately immediately, but like a case like yours has changed
the trajectory, especially with you being so loud about how
this is about reclaiming my name and how important that is.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Just alone, that was really the only thing, and in
the end it did. It did as Robbie ke and
figure out it would hurt him to give a bunch
of money, right, particularly if we gave the money away
to help women.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Exactly the fact that he's losing on such a large platform,
large scale is beautiful to see because it takes more
and more to be like to see. No people are
understanding how bad this really was and the fact that
he can't let it go is also something that shows
like how much of an ego and the sociopathy is.
Speaker 4 (50:30):
Yeah, it's impossible for women because difficult to sue a
powerful man because a powerful man will always be believed
over the woman, always, always, in every situation. Then if
she decides to sue him, he will sue her back
for defamation for millions of dollars. Then the woman gets
(50:53):
frightened because she does not have millions of dollars, and
she will you know, it's that's what's that's why this
doesn't happen unless you have somebody, unless you run into
George Conway at a party, unless you could. You know,
(51:15):
it's really because Donald Trump and my friend who I
told almost immediately after the attack, Carol Martin, the great
New York's anchor woman who's an icon in New York.
Tacopina beat up on her bad. Don't beat up on
Carol Martin. Don't put Carol Martin on the stand. No,
(51:39):
do not do that. Do not put Carol Martin on
the stand he walked in at anyway, she was a
woman that I told almost immediately afterwards, and she said,
don't go to the police. He's got two hundred lawyers.
He will bury you. Yeah, So Tacopina course had to
(52:00):
ask her all about that. But uh, yeah, it's just
that men had lawyers. Women don't have lawyers. Unless you're
Cheryl Shamburg or somebody, you may have a lawyer or two.
But so it's a hard situation. It's a hard situation.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
It is, and one of the things that was in
the book frustrating, but also I think all of us
we're living through this right now, is that it's not
a surprise. We've seen this pattern of behavior with Trump.
He pretty much told us in the infamous Access Hollywood tape,
like what kind of person he is? When I was
reading your book, and I was like, no, I've heard
(52:42):
about that case.
Speaker 4 (52:43):
I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Like I was like, oh my gosh, we know this
about him, And it's just it wasn't enough to prevent
him from becoming president twice, and so it can feel
very disheartening. But you did win against him.
Speaker 4 (53:02):
Twice, Like that's right, that's right, baby. So how did
it feel?
Speaker 2 (53:08):
I know you talked about it in the book, but
how did that feel when you were waiting for the
verdicts and then after you got the.
Speaker 4 (53:14):
Verdicts, well, waiting for the verdicte, I felt sort of
the weight. Well, first of all, it's impossible, but I
feel the weight of all And I know many of
these are the twenty three, the twenty seven to forty
three women who all have said come forward. It's not
(53:34):
just me, not just the access how I would taking,
it's all the other women who've accused him. So I
felt that. But the waiting, it's impossible to win a
sexual assault case because there's no witnesses. We happen to
have a lot of witnesses. Then we went out, the
(53:55):
jury left. Judge Lewis a Kaplan who should be on
the Sistine Chapel as God himself. One of the most
terrifying men I have ever seen in my life. Conservative
by the book Break No Rules. In his courtroom, he
(54:15):
and a Lina Hobba. Oh my god, he actually said,
right before the jury went out, uh bringing them missus Habba,
you are within minutes of going to lock up because
she she actually asked him. She said, your honor, I
(54:36):
don't like to be spoken to that way. To Judge
Leuis anyway, So when the jury goes out and you've
presented your case in the first one, in the first trial,
where we worked so hard and prepared so hard, we
actually presented a very strong case. But Takapina is one
(54:57):
of the great attorneys in the country and very persuasive
with a jury, very peruisive. However, our jury was not
a Manhattan jury, even though you'll read it a thousand
million times on Twitter they wanted New York the Manhattan year. No,
it was an upstate jury full of people from the
(55:23):
Trump counties. Robbie tried to get one of them taken
off the jury because he was such a follower of
Tim Poole as a conservative who had actually talked about
me several times on his podcast, and one of the
liar I was on Robbie trying to get Judge Katherln
here again he follows the rule. Judge Kaplan had a
(55:44):
private interview with this jury and said, can you fairly
render a bridique in this case? And the man said
yes he could. Judge Caplin says he stays on the jury,
so we really thought we were going to get a
hung jury. We've got trumpers on the jury, and we
(56:09):
had exactly the kind of jury that we didn't want.
We had six men, and they're the guys who all
said that she's too ugly in the mock trial, and
we had three women. So it was pretty terrifying. So
we go out at lunchtime. We're in a big, marble,
(56:29):
beautiful room where we were waiting. Your voice echoes gorgeous,
is in the Federal Court Room, which is the Mother Court.
We're in the Mother Court of the United States of America,
the first court that held session even before the Supreme Court.
So it's really it's a historic place. And I'm a
(56:52):
wreck and I keep asking This team of attorneys is
just brilliant, and I keep asking each one when do
you think the jury will come back? And it was
obvious that they had eleven questions to answer in this trial.
Eleven questions. So my team, the entire team, believed that
(57:15):
would take days. And the team was, uh, not only
thought it would, they were certain of it because my
team had the team was so brilliant. We had uh
a clerk for just Justice Ruth bader Ginsburg. We had
one of the clerks for just as Kennedy. We had
(57:40):
a clerk for the Who's now clerking was so my ore.
This is the level of the team we had, and
there their things. A genie's gonna take days. Just go
calm down. So I went into our little witness room.
I was taking a nap and bang the door opens,
(58:03):
ferd Exa in I, well, can you imagine I'm nearly
had a heart attack? Days and days? Is going to
take days and days? I got a loving questions to answer.
Are they have to take days and day? You? And
the man who opened the door was the Duke of Ferrara,
(58:25):
Mike Farra, the great Mike Fharra, who presented our case
so perfectly, and who wrung the jury's heart. Man, he
you know, just banged on them because Takapter kept saying,
because I laughed, because I went to a couple of
parties that I couldn't have been sexually sauld. Mike Ferrara
(58:46):
had lost his wife to cancer, and he said, when
something bad happens in your life, just that mean you
can't go on with your life. You can't go on
and enjoy your life. Can't. You can't. Can't go on
with your career and go to work. You can't go
on with it. Uh what does is that? What is
(59:08):
that what Joe Tacopina is saying.
Speaker 6 (59:10):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (59:10):
So his final argument was it was brilliant. So he's
the one who opens on and he looks frightened to death.
And when I saw that, the Duke of rar looked frightened,
I mean I was seized with terror. So we staggered
back in the courtroom and Judge Katherlin said, had you
chosen a leader? And the woman stands up, one of
(59:33):
the three women, So that was a good sign, and
the verdict came in. It was, without a doubt, the
happiest moment of my life. It was you could feel
the people in the courtroom just a sind with joy.
(59:53):
And I understand that news whipped around the world boom boom, boom.
And there was an off Broadway play in production at
the time and in a very serious scene and from
what I hear, and a producer ran out on stage
said Carol One, and everything stopped and the house lights
(01:00:17):
flashed on and off. That's what it was like in
New York. Now, it was it was impossible. We did it.
It was incredible. And Robbie and I were in the
car after the great win, you know, making our way
through the press and the white balls and everything. We
(01:00:37):
got in the car. We went through Chinatown and then
up through Soho and then through the village, and Robbie's
on her phone just yacking her brains out, calling everybody
she knows, getting congratulations over there. And I'm sitting in
the other corner of the car looking out and I'm thinking,
Donald Trump, this is your town, baby, and I just
(01:01:02):
beat Thish daddy. So it was. It was incredible. It
was incredibly right.
Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
I love so much of this And honestly, one of
the things that we were told that we need to
ask you about why you're fabulous, But honestly, just in
the first ten minutes, I kind of knew why you're fabulous,
(01:01:32):
just from your book.
Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
I absolutely know why you're fabulous.
Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
And I want to like just bathe in your aura
because it is fabulous.
Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Okay, I want that to be noted.
Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
But also you kind of already mentioned this earlier, and
I think it's important because this good closure to this
interview is you were awarded five million in the first trial,
and then eighty three point three million in a second.
But as you had eluded, this wasn't for you, it
was for women, It.
Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Was for the victims. It was for those who are survivors.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Can you kind of talk about with getting this money,
what you're going to do with it?
Speaker 4 (01:02:13):
Well, I love to talk about it, but it's changing
every day when I think. You know, when I first started,
I thought, we'll get women's reproduction right back, That's how
we're going to spend the money. And now every day
there's some sort of tragic development with the immigrants and
(01:02:33):
with the arts, and with everything being taken away so rapidly.
I just don't know what. It's just going to have
to We're going have to see, we're going to have
to take a look see where it can best be spent.
What do you think, What do you think?
Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
God, a chunk of it goes to the lawyers. Of course,
of course they deserve it.
Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Yeah, I think that's tricky it all. I guess it
would also depend, as you're saying, we are living in
a very rapidly changing environment. So when you actually get it, yeah,
and looking at where it could be best implemented. But
(01:03:18):
as you said, like I do love the idea of
giving it to things Trump hates.
Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
That's a very fun if he hates it. If he
hates it, that's what I was going to give it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
I think definitely you got to go for like the
queer community as well as a reproductive community as well
as sexual assault survivors, Like those three are a really
good way because obviously those are things that he absolutely have.
That's part of the reason he won with the immigration
as well, Like those are the things he went on,
so going after things that he's trying to disassemble.
Speaker 4 (01:03:48):
Right, I think on the cake, Yeah, particularly when you
think that you know the numbers of women who have
been sexual assault, because he was so high sky high
that people don't even can't even begin to grasp how
many people. I mean, because number one, there reporting is
not that's not accurate.
Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Oh no, And like just recently when we were talking
about DEI and the fact that he's like, oh, this
is all DEI. But the actuality is it actually hurts
nonprofits like violence shelters, sexual assault, assault awareness stuff like
those things that people were like adamantly like, yes, we
need to help women who are in domestic violent situations.
Speaker 4 (01:04:25):
We need a god, yes, but.
Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
They don't care enough to see that those other things
that they think is happening is actually taking money away
from that.
Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
So stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
It's definitely so I am.
Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
I'm an old lady. I beat Donald Trump twice. So
it makes no sense to me that the Ivy League
universities and the big media companies and the big corporations
have been in the need of Downald Trump because they're
fighting him. I don't that. I don't understand. So what
(01:05:04):
I'm worried about is if they're worried, this is why
people across the land are being quiet and aren't moving,
aren't standing up, are raising their voices because he's got
everybody boguarded. Right, So I'm going back to one of
(01:05:25):
the oldest things mankind. It's an old old idea, older
than actually older than mankind. It's called signaling. When a
population is being attacked or oppressed, there are ways for
individuals to signal their support from one another. Right, we
(01:05:49):
don't have that signal. MAGA has the red hats, we
don't have them. So I suggest that we all take
an item which can picklocks, which can open handcuffs, which
when straightened out, becomes a lethal weapon, which stands for
(01:06:12):
holding things together and unity. I'm suggesting we all start
wearing the paper clip as a signal of our support
for the anti trumpers as against the president. I it's
very simple, So I wearing this paper clip. We all
(01:06:38):
put on a paper clip. We can see our sisters
and brothers who are also not liking what's going on
in the country. We don't have the Maga hat, but
we have this sly, subtle, sneaky and at work. If
you're going to get in trouble, put it on your
pantcuff or put it on your strap for your bag.
(01:07:01):
What do you think.
Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
I like it multifunctional, that's going to be.
Speaker 4 (01:07:06):
Well, Samantha. I want you to start wearing it right
now and and when you start wearing it, because we
need influencers to do it, and you too, got a
lot of influence. So if you will every day put
on a paper clip. You got one at home, You
probably got one there where you are and behind you.
(01:07:27):
I know you've got a paper clip in there somewhere.
That's the question.
Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
It's a mess back there.
Speaker 4 (01:07:33):
I think the paper clup. We need to recognize each
other and this is just subtle. You know, we got
start doing it. I like it and for your listeners,
clip it on, babes, clip it on. You know.
Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
I'm also really mad that Donald Trump ruined red hats.
Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Yea, even if it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
Even if it doesn't say and I'm like, this isn't fair.
Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
He shouldn't have gotten to do this.
Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
He ruined the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
He actually ruined the American flag too, to be fair,
so he's.
Speaker 4 (01:08:11):
Not ruining the paper clip. This is a big This
is a big symbol from the World War Two. Yeah,
this is what they wore to show resistance to the
Nazi occupation and wore paper clips. Sell. Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 4 (01:08:27):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Another thing I have to ask you, because you do like,
what is it about podcasts that you like? Because you
mentioned it before as being a powerful tool, and why
do you have one?
Speaker 4 (01:08:38):
St No, No, I'm a good guest, but I'm not
a host. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
You have your whole column that was asked. So I
think I think you need to do a podcast. People
asking you questions come on once a week, once a week.
Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
I couldn't, I couldn't you know what you started at
the top, and you were asking those questions are there?
Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
You're already there.
Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
I can't no, no, But I love the guests. I
love being a guest. I could not do it. First
of all, Almost half the questions that I answered in
the twenty some thirty years of writing an advice I changed. Now.
Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
They just we could revisit those questions.
Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Not me, man, no, no, I'm out of the advice business.
And all I say now is yeah, do it?
Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
Hey, that might be exactly what we need that or
the fabulousness are you telling us?
Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
Yes, do this?
Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
Do it?
Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
Joy mankind, do it?
Speaker 5 (01:09:39):
Do it?
Speaker 4 (01:09:42):
That's it, that's all. Yeah, that's all we need to do.
Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
Yeah, that's a good podcast. I'm just there.
Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
Well, let us know if you decided to do it. Yes, and.
Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Always, always, always, we would love to have you back.
There's so much we'd like to talk about.
Speaker 4 (01:09:59):
You guys are ass when you are a delight? Where
can the good listeners find you? You've got a lot
going on, a lot of books on the podcast. Well,
first of all, where can they find you? Because they
can't find me unless they can find you, So where
are they finding you?
Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
That's it. I feel like I've been a kind some
kind of mind trap question, because if they're not listening,
I know what's even happening now, Well, listeners, you can
find EJ. Carrol on a wonderful episode of stuff I've
Never told you, which is available wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 4 (01:10:32):
That's it that you can give me on the bookstore,
not my type and on substack e gen Girl subset.
Yes the world is on substack. Now are you guys
on subseack?
Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
Not yet?
Speaker 4 (01:10:45):
What podcast?
Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
Every day?
Speaker 4 (01:10:49):
You literally do not have time to be on substack.
You don't have time.
Speaker 6 (01:10:54):
She has two podcasts, so I know that that crazy
and I understand it.
Speaker 4 (01:11:02):
I'm with you. Well, you had to be very good
at it, so you do what you're good at. That's
so do two of them. Hell yeah, yeah, you do
two of them. That's good. So this is good. So
you'll you'll you'll call me anytime please if.
Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
You give us that invitational Billy you want to call
him this month? What about this month? So don't don't
open it too high because I'm gonna need to be
in your fabulousness.
Speaker 4 (01:11:26):
Oh, thank thank you, thank you thing. And also you
get a fifth time you got you're on here every day.
Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
It's more than just that, but yes, true, so much more.
Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for
being here.
Speaker 4 (01:11:41):
It's been a delight, it's been amazing, it's been fabulous.
Thank you so again.
Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Please go check out Eugene Carrol and this book. It's
it's really really fantastic and her writing style is really wonderful,
So go check it out. If you would like to contact.
Speaker 4 (01:12:00):
Us, you can.
Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
You can email us at Hello at stuff Onennever Told
You dot com. You can also find us on Blue
Sky at also Podcasts, or on Instagram and TikTok at
stuff I Never Told You. We're us on YouTube and
we have a new place you can get merch called
Cotton Bureau, so check that out, and we have a
buck you can get where you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Chestine or executive producer
and a contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks to you
(01:12:23):
for listening. Stuff I Never Told You is production by
Heart Radio. For more podcast from my Heart Radio, you
can check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
if you listen to your favorite shows
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm welcome to stuff I never told you production if
I heard you, and today we have I would say
a special classic to bring back. And this is a
rare instance we've heart. I don't think we've ever done
this before, but we're bringing back a classic that we've
(00:29):
already brought back and recently. But there's a pretty big
reason for why, right, Samantha.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Yes to my delight. As I was doing my daily
doom scrolling a week or two ago, I saw a
post saying that this day is a day for celebration
as e Gen Carrol, who we had on the show,
whose interviews coming up, was actually awarded the money that
she had won through civil lawsuit against Donald Trump. And
(00:58):
this is from scottis Blog. They wrote two weeks after
the Supreme Court declined to hear President Donald Trump's appeal
of a five million dollar jury verdict entered against him
in a sexual abuse and defamation case filed by Eagen Carol.
Carol collected that payment plus interest, according to court records
and her legal team.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
So our girl, yes, I said, our girl has gotten
some because this is one of nick a few lawsuits.
But some of her money and that is that five
million plus interest. Yes, everybody clap. So of course we
had to celebrate by bringing back this classic because she
is amazing and every time I think of her, my
(01:41):
heart just swells just ten times bigger knowing she's still
out there doing the Lord's work.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yes, same every time I see her in the news,
I'm like, you better win this, like the people better
decide with you, and they did.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
And just overall, y'all, she is as iconic as you
would imagine.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yes, it's a fantastic interview, so please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,
this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff on
Never Told You productive Iyheart Radio. Before we get into
(02:26):
today's episode, just a quick content warning or we're just
going to be discussing some topics around sexual assaults. I
feel like Donald Trump is kind of a warning in
it himself. But the book we're talking about today at
large does go into it. Highly recommend you read it.
Don't we barely touch the surface. There's so much that
(02:47):
we didn't get to talk about in this conversation, so.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Go check it out.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
But just know that that is something that is in there.
And today we are so excited to be joined by
journalist and author of the New York Times best selling
book Not My Type One Woman Versus the President, Egene Carroll.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yay exactly.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yes, I'm just glad to see that you are here.
I hear you've been on jury duty.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
I yes, I was.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I actually tried to look up the case because I
did get dismissed. They didn't like me enough or they
were afraid of me, one of the two things.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So I got dismissed.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
What was the case? What was the case?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
It was malicious murder and a lot of felonies with that.
So it was a shooting that happened here in Decatur
slash Atlanta. So I was it was going to be
at least a five day trial, We're pretty sure.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
But at least yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So I was like, hey, so our jury, Yeah, our
initial jury questioning took two days and they didn't even
finish with us. They were just like, okay, wow, we
got at least forty something out of the sixty. We'll
see if we can pick from there. So it was
it was definitely a lot longer than I anticipated. And
that was actually my first time at being present, like
(04:07):
I usually get dismissed before, so after the questioning, I
don't think they liked the fact that I said I
was on a podcast for.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Inter social feminism.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Immediate dismissal, immediate, Right, So what else did they ask you?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
But asked me about that? It was really kind of
funny because you know how they ask about jobs. They're
like podcaster, you know, with like kind of a doubt,
and I was like, yeah, I understand, it's a job,
I promise, but I had experienced as a social worker
in like the Department of General Justice, as well as
investigating cal the abuse.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
So they were like, yeah, all of that, we're just
gonna go.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
Unless oh boy, oh no, the prosecutor was extremely smart,
I want to put you on the jury.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I don't know if they argued about me.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
There was a lot of bet they did.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (05:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
What was the racial makeup of the people who showed
up for jury duty?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
It was actually pretty mixed in race, because I think
there was like the least amount was Asian people and
Latina people, but there was a lot of very heavy
like black community base, especially in that area, as well
as white. So essentially I think it's good more more
black community than any other demographic. Yeah, decatury kind of
(05:27):
it kind of hits that way, right, But yeah, and
I see what you're doing. I see you're questioning me
and using your interview skills over here. This is not
this is not this episode, ma'am.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
No, ma'am.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
It's just jury's are fascinating.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
They are. You're right, it was. It was interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I was kind of both of those, like, I don't
have time for this, and the thought of being on
this type of trial really makes me a little ansious,
So I didn't want to be on it.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
But at the same time, I'm still curious and.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I kind of want to know how that played out,
and especially knowing the jurors, like we had enough time
to all talk about our thoughts, and I was like, oh,
this is going to be an interesting makeup.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
I'm interested in jury's of course, because we before first
trial against Donald Trump, we had something called mock jury's.
Oh really, this is jury ECUs a big, big cases
where a lot is at stake, And there was a
lot at steak because I had sued the sitting president
of the United States, right, and so it's my jories
(06:27):
of where you present your arguments to twenty seven typical
jurors to see if your arguments are working. You know,
you don't quite yeah, you know. So we put on
an entire trial in find a twenty seven typical New
York is in a big ballroom in downtown New York.
(06:51):
We put on witnesses, we had videotapes, we had someone representing,
We had Donald Trump represented by one of our lawyers
who played Joe Takapeta, the great criminal defense lawyer. And
(07:13):
the case went. We thought the arguments were brilliant. And
then the twenty seven typical New York jerors met to
discuss the cases, and they were divided into three of
nine each. And here's what they decided. They all agreed that, yes,
two people could end up in a dressing room in
(07:35):
Bergdorf Goodman. Yes, and yes, they agreed that two people
could involve involve themselves in something sexual in a dressing
room in Bergdorf Goodman in nineteen ninety six. And they
agreed that the two people in the dressing room and
Bergdorf Goodman were Donald Trump and Ejan Carroll. But what
(07:58):
they all thought was that I was begging him for it,
all of them pretty much. Wow, pretty much all the men,
pretty much of the men. Now, it was that it
was because I was They saw me on videotape and
(08:20):
a deposition I was too old, too dissiccated, too much
of an old crone that they couldn't imagine what it
was like in nineteen ninety six. Sequence is. So then
we had to redo my hair like it was in
ninety six, to the makeup like it was in ninety six.
I wore clothes that I actually owned and wore in
nineteen ninety six. And so that's what we did, and
(08:42):
we found out our arguments were way off. We thought
we were doing a case for all women, right. We thought,
you know this is going to be where this is.
You know, powerful men may not always be believed. Perhaps
so woman has a story. Oh no, uh uh no.
(09:03):
The gender divide is as strong as ever in this country.
We found out. And Robbie Kaplan, the great you know,
legal mind of generation, my attorney, said, from now on,
this case is not for all a woman, Jean, this
case is about you and Donald Trump. And he lied, right.
(09:26):
So that's why I'm so fascinated with jerrys.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
I mean, I mean isn't. It's just fascinated.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
It is.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
We had the best case of the world. They didn't.
They didn't see it because I'm too old, too old,
too ugly.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
So yeah, and you did an amazing job in opening
this because yes, you essentially had that as an introduction
for this amazing book before we start, because we did
mention who you were and what we're specifically talking about today.
But I think people you really don't need that big
of an introduction. The minute I saw your name in
(10:03):
our email, I was like, yes, yes, yes, we need
to talk to her immediately, but can you introduce yourself
to our listeners just in case?
Speaker 4 (10:12):
Well, how do you do? How do you do? I'm
Eg and Carol. I'm a journalist, the journalist for fifty years.
I was an advice columnist for Elle for twenty seven years,
and I've led a really fascinating, wonderful and incredible life.
(10:33):
I was missed cheerleader USA, and I happen to suit well, okay,
I happen to be the only person on the planet
to have beaten Donald Trump twice.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
The balloons are amazing. I'm so in love with that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Guest listeners, their balloons happening in the back.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Oh. I there's so much to your life story that
I really there's so many things that we could talk about,
and I really hope we can be friends enough that
you want to come on to our show again so
that we can have a deep dive about your life
and all the things that you've experienced just alone and
like your vice columns, and because you were kind of
the beginning with the many others to like talk about
(11:23):
what it is to have a call based on people
asking you for your advice. You talk about therapists asking
you for your advice. So we want to have you
on for so much more. So please, if you have
any free time and you want to hang out with
two lonely girls in the South, we need to come
back on for more.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
But now, why, why would anybody want to come on
the show of two women who have decided to do
a podcast every single day of the week. Who are you?
Why would you do every day? That's a great question,
is true.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
One must ponder that before accepting our offer.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Do fill one of those spaces up again?
Speaker 4 (12:09):
That's true, It's amazing, it's a huge accomplishment. Then people
get addicted to you, and then they've got to hear it.
You know, you become part of their day. So that's
in a way very wise.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Very yeah, you know, kind of like the whole jury divide.
I think there's a love and hate for us.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Let me ask you, do you run out of things
to say? We haven't yet.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, And I think with the way in the state
of the world, Oh, there's other things at least we
can update because we have to constantly update because of
the way things have changed so quickly, and as long
as we have the freedom to do so, we will.
Much like having you on the show, which we are
so privileged to have you on this show.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
But yeah, like right now.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
We have to kind of go into the darkness, if
you will. But there's plenty there in that darkness. I
don't want to go hard on time and trying to
find the optimistic point of view.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
So it must be amazing that you had to really
start turning towards the dark because I know you two
don't necessarily that's not your life vision.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
No, no, no, it's not.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
I've been doing this.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
I've been on this podcast either as a producer or
editor since twenty ten.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Way minute twenty ten ten, I didn't.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Start as a host until like, I think twenty eighteen. Wow,
but I was producing, editing, and so seeing like the
timeline of how things have changed in this space has
been really really.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Wild, particularly the road that women have taken since twenty ten. Yes, yes, indeed.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Well, one thing we wanted to talk about before we
get in to your book more in depth is that
you do have this really.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
Varied writing career.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
You've written for SNL, You're a contributing editor for Playboy,
the Advice Column ask Egene, numerous books. You've had a
lot of adventures doing it. How did you get into writing?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
When I was twelve, I sent off my first pitch
letter to the series of Robut catalogs. I had an
idea for a story. I just I was raised in
a house full of magazines. One of the high points
in my childhood was my father coming home waiving Time
(14:42):
Magazine and saying they've published my letter in Time Magazine,
And the whole street where we lived was like, oh
my god, Tom Carl's got his letter publishing Time Magazine.
So I thought, wow, this is pretty exciting being in
(15:03):
a magazine, right, So that's sort of what I wanted
to do. And I spent twenty five years after pitching
the series in Roebuck Caalog at the asy, Joe, took
me twenty five years to get in my first magazine,
twenty five years. Can you imagine the hideous ambition drive
(15:27):
lust to be a magazine that would drive some poor
woman twenty five years through no, no, no, no, the
blizzard of nos from New York editor. I never got
a yes. I never got a yes. And then in Esquire,
a woman named Marilyn Johnson picked my poor Manila envelope
(15:52):
off the top of their slush pile. And Esquire at
the time was the just the brilliant literary magazine in
the country. And there's slushbot. I have pictures. We're five
and six feet tall, that's how tall. They're slush wrong
and she having to pick it off, and she called
(16:12):
me and they accepted it. So that's all I needed
to get in, you know. Once I was in, you know,
once you're in, you're in. And I got my big
size of loving shoe in that Esquire door, and that's
all I needed.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Like there's so many questions. I have a feeling this
is going to be a long interview. Because every time
you kept give us like such great storytelling information, I
have like more questions that.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Come off of that.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
So so hopefully we can get through this from the
hour A lot it to us. If not, I'm telling
you we want you to come back.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
But all of that to say, how did you deal?
Speaker 1 (16:52):
What's twenty five? What made you keep going? Within like
having twenty five years of a projection? Because I'm one
of those that like you hurt my feelings on my
just leave that life enough for me of a rejection,
but you pushed through and that's a dedication in itself.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
How what what made you keep going?
Speaker 4 (17:10):
The glamorous life of a magazine writer was is almost
unimanageable today. To work for a magazine meant you had
the ticket. They would send you anywhere in the world
to write about people you had never met, would never
see again, about some subjects you knew nothing about, and
they would send you away and you would get it
(17:33):
was the life was so adventuresome and so glamorous that
I couldn't help but want to just be right in
the middle of everything. And it turned out to be true.
It turned out to be it turned out I mean,
I mean the off days in you know, the eighties,
(17:55):
at the peak of magazine Glamor, running down the boulevards
at three point thirty in the morning, you know, getting
eating a French onion soup at four in the morning.
You know, just going just it's just you just banging
on life. It's ship ring on every bell. And there
are several books out right now about the Glamour's eighties magazine,
(18:19):
the Graydon Carter biography. There's one now about Condie Mask
coming out. But it really was. It was romantic and uh,
you know it was. It was a stupendous stupendous Unfortunately,
now do you know what our new magazines are. Our
(18:41):
new magazines are now podcasts. That's what the new magazines are.
That's it that the podcasts have taken over. Well, I
think it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I think it's pretty cool an interesting format. I will
say for sure, I want the Glamorers part because I
think your life story, your career story, where's your HBO series?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
You need one. You need it just to.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Tell the people out there and if someone does pick
it up, I want I want a personage.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I need it.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
That's smart, that's smart.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
My name I'll here y'all.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Okay Again, Like I said, I have a feeling we're
gonna have so much to talk about, and I'm going
to try to focus.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I promise I'm gonna try to focus in your book,
not my type.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
One woman versus a President, which, by the way, what
a title delves into your two lawsuits against Donald Trump.
So before we get into the specifics, could you break
down the lawsuits so we and the audience are all
on the same page. Annoying, especially what you thought of
with the lawsuit and everything else.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
Could you break that down for us?
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Very simple. Nineteen ninety six, Donald Trump and I ran
into each other in front of Bergdorf Goodman. Bergdorf Goodman
is a luxury department. It's not a department store. It's
a specialty shore. It's like no other store on the
base of the earth. It's a mansion at seven floors,
and it's just brillant. He asked me to help him
(20:21):
find a gift for a friend. I was delighted that
that was my job. That's my business, I advised people.
So it turned very dark when we got to the
sixth floor, and it was so bad that I stayed
(20:43):
silent about it for almost thirty years and then the
Weinstein story hit the cover of the New York Times.
Remember that, and the waves of women standing up and
telling their story. I just said, well, I am the
(21:06):
biggest hypocrite of all time. God damn it, that's seventy
game five. I'm not going to be silent any longer.
And I told my story. He when it hit, It
was on the cover of New York magazine, when it
(21:26):
hit for three straight days from the White House, he
called me a liar, and he said I was a
liar twenty six different times. I knew there would be
a ruckus I had. I was no, I was not
at all prepared for what for that? And at a
party at Molly jong Fast, who you should also have
(21:49):
on your podcast. She just wrote a great book about
her mother. I ran into George Conway, of all people,
and George was the first person to actually tell me
about possibly something called a lawsuit. George was, of course,
(22:10):
as a famous lawyer in his own right. He went
to he was, you know, five bigger capitin from Harvard.
He went to Yale Law School, he started the Lincoln Project,
and he explained to me what a lawsuit is nobody'd
ever really taken the time, and he said, actually he
wrote a piece about it in the Washington Post that
(22:33):
George was a famous Republican by the time. At the party,
he had written a big op ed in the Washington
Post to his fellow Republicans saying, if you believe Jannita Broadrick,
remember why Nita Brodrick is a woman who claimed that
President Clinton had raped her. So George's op ed piece was,
(22:58):
if you believe one Nita Broadrick, you gotta believe Egene
Carol because she has a better case, a stronger case.
So I went over to thank him, and then that's
when he explained that.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
I had a lawsuit, and it was I never thought
of lawsuit, so I was not thinking of loss of
other people are saying are you going to sue?
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Are you going to sue? And I it would just
it would not mean anything because I didn't even know
what that meant. So he said, and I may be
able to help. Think of someone to help you. And
the next day here's an email saying introductory email and
there were two words, Robbie kaplan. It was like a
(23:51):
bomb going off, because you know, Robbie at that time
was just trouncing the Nazis in Charlottesville. She'd open the
way to gay rights in a Mayerica America with Windsor.
She was really, she really is one of the great
legal minds that's ever practiced law in the whole United States.
So we met two days later and that was it.
(24:14):
I knew the minute I shook her hand that this
is what I wanted to do. So we sued him
for defamation. We see the sitting president for defamation. That
started a long trip and suit him for defamation. He
asked the DOJ to step in and to pay his
(24:34):
legal bills and represented him well. That case was stopped.
A second case, I sued him again for sexual abuse
because New York State passed something called the Adult Survivors Act.
So then midnight on Thanksgiving I sued him again for
(24:55):
sexual assault. So now we have two suits. Okay, with
sexual assault and defamation went first. That we won unanimous
jury said Trump was liable for sexual abuse and defamation.
We totally won that. Two days later, after we won,
(25:15):
Trump went on the CNN town hall and re said
and redid everything. He had just paid me five million
dollars because he said in the person. So I sued
him again and that became that that was added to
the first suit. So the second trial was only about damages.
(25:37):
We had proved there was sexual assault, so we didn't
need what now. It was about damage done to me.
And that was the big trial, and he misbehaved every
single It was wonderful just to see him in court.
Oh my god, the apricot makeup, the hair done up
(25:59):
like Barbara Stanwick in Ballifire, I mean, the antics. It
was an incredible It was just an After each day's
trial he would go out and say, this is a
travesty of judge. I deserve I deserve the damage she
hurt me. Why you know why? Why? So So that
(26:22):
was the second trial, and that when we won, and
he's being made to pay eighty three point three million
dollars for his lives and the damage he did to
me because he killed my reputation.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
He just killed it, right, And I know just last
month he lost the appeal to that, which is even
more glorious to see.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
No, he always loses the appeals. He loses every single aval.
He must be exhausted from losing. I mean he must,
he just must, see Robbie Caplan's face and just fake
from fear because he cannot He cannot win this case.
He cannot win it. He's exhausted, the appeals on the
first truck, the five million dollar drought, He's lost all that.
(27:05):
The only thing he can do now is go to
the Supreme Court. He has sixty days to go and
he hasn't gone yet. So I don't know what he's
I don't think. Well, wait a minute, Annie Samanthy, what
do you think do you think this Supreme Court is
going to want to hear a case where the President
of the United States, who they all apparently worship, sexual
(27:30):
abuse of women? Do do you think they want to
hear that case?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Want to hear?
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I mean would they hear?
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I don't because there's too much I don't Trump, You're
trying to get me in trouble. There's a lot to
be said that this Supreme Court, especially the way he
is stacked, is there purposely and for a reason, and
it's for Trump's advantage. So I think, like I would
(28:01):
hesitate saying that, I don't think they would want to
hear it, but I don't think they would completely dismiss it.
So who knows? Who knows because also we're not legal.
I'm not a legal person, so.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
That you know you're but you're a highly intelligent person.
It doesn't make sense that during these Epstein days that
they would hear anything.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
And that's the other question to that is if he does,
well that open it up, because you mentioned that in
your book and about the fact that you had that
as like in your back pocket. That could be like,
if he was smart about it, I would think that
he especially because he's I feel like he's done everything
he can try to suppress that information. So this seems
(28:41):
like if you were But then again, I don't know
the level of intelligence, I don't kindly that I'm going trouble.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Well, maybe that the level of intelligences they may want
to help him when.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Right right, Well, also, like I said, the level in
touches are like this may get view and avenue to
open up all of that.
Speaker 7 (29:02):
Both questions about oh it would not yes, exactly, it
would not be smart because their only argument, I here,
do you know what Trump's argument is on this case?
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Tell me, oh boy, you're not gonna believe it. You
are not going to believe it. Trump is saying, because
one of my witnesses. Remember I had eleven witnesses at
the first trial, which is unusual because there are usually
never any witnesses when sexual assault takes places. Well, we
(29:34):
had eleven witnesses. One of those witnesses was Jessica Leads
and you remember her. She was the woman who he
assaulted on the airplane in nineteen eighty. Okay, and he's
always denied it, and there are cases that she should
(30:00):
not have been a witness. Are you ready for this?
You better grip your deaths. You got a grip, because
I don't want you to fall to the floor. Okay.
Their argument is she should not have been allowed to
be a witness because when he assaulted her in nineteen eighty,
assaulting a woman on an airplane was not a crime
(30:23):
in nineteen eighty.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
A feeling you're gonna say that.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Because in the air yeah, oh my gosh, I thought
it was going to be that she should have had
her own case, which is also pretty damning.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
I can I feel like that.
Speaker 6 (30:40):
That's how they're thinking, that's how that So this is
why I say I go back and forth, like I
would say, rationally he should not, but then again, his
ego as well as the fact that, yes, he's he.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Will continue to lose to you in order to try
to win, which is also a thing.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
But right now, cool, that's that's I like that. I
like that. Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah, I'm just saying that there's so much to that.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
That that's like he is one of those and then
his team whatever whatnot.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
He's got the lawyers in the country, you know, he's
maybe money from. Yeah, they they're all now Alena Hobbe
is now as you know, attorney general. You know, Joe
Takapina goes on to his attorneys are all Okay, Alena
Habba Esquire doesn't know Diddley squat about the law. Okay,
(31:39):
we understand that. We understand that. But she's brilliant. She's
a great politician, mark my words. She will be running
percentate soon. She is. And she's got the stuff. She's
got beauty, brains, confidence, she can do it all. She
just doesn't know anything about the law anything.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
You know. It doesn't sound like a requirement needed for
any of those decisions at this point in time.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
There's a lot of things about Trump's, like people in
his orbit that I'm like, this is just you want
someone who looks a certain way and who loves you,
and so a lot of what I was reading in
the book I felt was less about the law and
more that they were trying to play on people's ideas
(32:37):
about sexual assault or people's ideas like these things they
know have worked, but they're not like actually using a
good law case, like they're just playing to these ideas
and the jury. Which one of the things that stuck
out to me is you do start the book and
(32:57):
you say, you know, I want you to be as
discombobulated as I was during this whole process, and you
can just see transcripts of the questions you got asked,
and it was very telling of what they were trying
to paint, the story they were trying to tell. And
I think the title you know, not my type. You
(33:18):
talked about that a little bit more a little bit earlier,
but that's something we've discussed. We've been very open about
our own experiences with sexual assaults, and one of the
things with mine was that the first one of the
first things I thought was, no one's going to believe
me because I'm not pretty enough.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
I never believe it.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
And you talk about that in the book where you say,
you wrote, nobody's going to believe an eighty year old
woman was ever attractive enough to assault. So can you
talk about that and why you titled the book that.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
Well, the title is It's just too delicious because he
was sitting at the what's the famous desk called the
what's his the desk? Yeah, he was sitting at the
resolute desk when reporters from the Hill asked him about
this assault and he said to the reporters from the
(34:16):
White House, as president, she's not my type. Okay. Then
missus Robbie Kaplan gets him in a deposition. She's at
Mary Lago and he's on camera and everybody's recording him,
(34:37):
and he she gets in to say several times that
he has been shown a photograph of me. She tells
him three times she is about to show him a
photograph of the playtip e gen Carrol. She's fair, but
(34:57):
she's like Odessus. She just lays trap after a trap,
and like the cyclops, poor old Trump is gonna fall
into most of those things. So, after telling him three
times she's gonna show, she shoves a nice black and
white photo across to him. He's got four people in it.
(35:18):
She says, can you identify the people in this photograph?
Immediately he says, that's John Johnson. Why John Johnson is
on TV. That's the first person. He's my ex husband.
Great guy. Then he slides past Ivana. He says, I
don't know who that is, and then he points right
(35:39):
at me. He says that's Marla, and Mama said, you're
saying that. He says, yes, yeah, that's my wife. Then
Haba lips in says no, that's Carol, and then Trump
(36:00):
says uh huh not and nods, and then he says,
about seven seconds later, but the photo is blory. The photo,
of course, is as clear as just It's just crystal
and clear. So it was odd if you see pictures
of Marla and me from the time we are, it's
(36:24):
difficult to tell us apart. I mean, it's really a
strange thing. So most attorneys at that point would have said,
look it's over, you've got no case. I mean, that's it.
That's but he of course went on and so the
(36:45):
not my type thing is so he says, not my type,
and then he says, yes, that's smart. So of course
I'm going to title the book not my Type because
he's not my type. He is not my type. And
I don't think he's your type. Annie, I don't think
he's your tribe. Samantha, I don't think he's our type,
(37:05):
do you. No, No, I don't know. We need to
hear from your listeners. We need to hear from listeners.
Is Dowald Trump your type? I don't know. It's down
Trump your type. Seriously, I'm a little nauseated.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
We can't talk about this in context of the human.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
No, No, can I just say for the listeners, I
have them on camera. They're both looking like they're well,
I don't know. They're holding their hands over their mouths
O them. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
You're trying to get us in trouble for what you do.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Well, okay, so you already talked about your mock jury
and the outcome of that trial and how it was like, okay,
now we have to change our argument. As a part
of this, you tried to recreate how you looked at
the time. You even hunted down the hairstylist who gave
you the bob You recreated outfits, right, Can you explain
(38:28):
why that was so important?
Speaker 4 (38:31):
I had to give the jury of an echo of
the woman that was attacked in Brodors. They couldn't see
it from me just sitting there. So we had to
create the look, the same look that I had in
nineteen ninety six, And so when they held up pictures
of me in nineteen ninety six, they could really put
(38:53):
it together with the woman who was sitting at the
plaintiff's table. Because we were against a force so large
and so powerful, the only thing that could fight that
borus was fact. And that's what that's what we use.
Fact she is okay, they could see, okay, there's a
(39:17):
dim echo of the woman that we're talking about here.
That's what we had to go with.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That's such an odd situation in prepping for our trials,
is that you have to play or look the part
in order to be of course, a believed, be even
heard at any point in time. Into that you have
to go through the most invasive questions that seems nonsensical
(39:44):
half the time, like why are we even talking about this?
My personal life has nothing to do with that specific incident.
And at one point, I know the Trump team asked
you about your lovers, like they needed to go through
a whole list and even descriptors of people. And by
the way, we just recently had an episode about zuobale Zoo.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
So when Ben Vereen came on your list, I was like, wait, what,
wait what.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
I did?
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I was like, I was like what Ben Veren? I
just talked about him anyway, moving on with a wow.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I was just like, it just made me made me
my fuck and you were able to respond with detail. Unfortunately,
because they kept asking you things like all of that
seems so over the top in any like this has
nothing to do with anything. But with all of that, A,
how were you able to go through and honestly do
(40:42):
this type of interview? Uh, with the humor that you
were able to insert into this book, because that in
itself made me die a little bit. Just the thought
of having to replay, like tell about my personal life
to talk about a really horrific incident. A. I'm like,
wait what and then you did it with such finesse
(41:05):
in the book, but also just being able to do
it seemingly respectfully to them and just what it wasn't
like to go through that type of questioning.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Talking about my lovers was one of the most fabulous
moments I got to enjoy it. I loved it. I
love talking about my lovers. I love it. You want
to talk about my lovers of Lena Square, let's talk
about me.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
You literally gave the accolades.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
I started off with a gold medal, Olympic world record
holding butterfly jam. You know, so it was. It was
the one moment in that deposition when I felt I
was flying with happiness. Said we lifted the whole room.
It was fantastic. It was just yeah, she asked me questions.
(41:59):
Elena asked, why asking questions like that to shame me,
to you Millia, to make me look like a fluozy.
But you know, it made no sense. Why is she
asking me about my lovers when they say he wasn't
even there, when they say it didn't even happen. So
(42:23):
the minute she's starting to ask me about my lovers,
I know that she knows that she knows he was
there right at Bourg views. So that really the absurdity
of the truph. So the book is comic, a high
comp high comedy, because it's absurd. If he wasn't there,
(42:49):
why are they asking me why I didn't scream? Did
that make sense? Didn't make sense? Is it absurd? Yes,
is it funny, Yes, it's funny. You know, you don't
tear apart a woman, you know, for not screaming when
he wasn't there. So yeah, that's why the book is finne.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Right, And the level of like humor that you do
put in this does kind of also reflecting like the
moments of seeing what's going on that you can't help
but just laugh about the absurdity of it all. And
that's one of the things that really really push you
about in that moment of like you not realizing the
ill intent that was about to happen. And we like
(43:36):
we talk about this all the time, and we've gotten
criticized by listeners, by men specifically saying that we as
a host giggle too much because we do talk about
a lot of serious things, and our response is to
kind of laugh at it because we can't do anything else.
It feels like it feels like if we don't laugh
at it, we might fall apart, or it just feels
like we have to look at the absurdity beyond what's
(43:57):
right in front of us, because if we don't, none
of it would make sense. Note that it makes sense anyway,
but at least we can find a little like calming
in laughter, which has a lot.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
Of their keep it up and keep it up, keep
it up there, so one, that's one of our great weapons. Exactly.
They don't like to be laughed at. Exactly, keep laughing, ladies,
keep laughing, go for it. Keep it up. That you're
being criticized as a good sign. That's a good sign.
Do not stop with the giggling, and do not stop
(44:28):
with the laughing, please, it's a show of strength and confidence.
That you can laugh shows that you are not looking
dead like you know, what's happening is flattening out the country.
Because if you're laughing, that is a good sign. It's
a sign of strength. Do not stop it.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Jesus, come on, take this audio clip and put it
somewhere in my like affirmations. But this is this is
something Trump's lawyer made a big deal about and that
they try to try to use against you that you
laughed instead of screening. Why do you think they focused
so much on that. Maybe you just said it because
it is a strength, But why do you think they
focused so hard and was hoping that that would discredit
(45:08):
you somehow.
Speaker 4 (45:09):
Well, they've now set winning back fifty years fifty years
taking away our rights. So of course their argument is
going to come from the seventeenth century or this fifteenth century,
or from the Bible. Actually, they're going to go two
thousand years back, and I better have being screamed or
(45:34):
I'm lying. That is one of the oldest arguments. Actually
it's in the Bible. So it's just the Republican way
of seeing women. And Joe Takapino in one of the
great criminal defense lawyers. He got Asap Rocky Off, he
got Michael jacksonall acquitted, he got the Sopranos killer killer Off,
(45:59):
he got the guy who bludgeoned Natalie Holloway down in
a room, but got him out of jail for like
nine years. He's one of the great criminal defense lawyers.
Donald Trump of course hires him because Donald Trump Trump
has committed a crime, so criminal defense lawyer. And I
(46:19):
think that Joe Taccapino was smart enough not to do
this old argument because Joe has daughters. Joe knows better.
I think Trump was telling him what to argue. I
think Trump was telling him from what I hear reported
about Trump, you know, telling his a lawyer. Well, actually
(46:40):
I heard him every single day telling Elena Hobbitt what
to say, what to do. So I think he must
have done that with Joe Tacopina, and I think that
was Trump's argument. I don't think that was Joe Tacopina's argument.
I think Joe Tacopina was doing what his client wanted
him to do. They beat up I mean for not
going to the police. Oh my god, has he ever
(47:00):
met a woman. I mean, a woman knows if she
goes to the police, some man may retaliate. Correct, the
woman may lose her job. Correct, she may not be
able to feed her family. I mean, that's why you
don't go to the police. They don't want She doesn't
(47:20):
want her family to find out who's the police will
be talking to everybody. Her life is basically, you go
to the police, forget your life going on ever again.
But if you don't go to the police, if you
stay quiet, no they don't know about it, and your
life can go on. These are the decisions that women
are forcing in the making when they're assaulted and then
(47:41):
to be banged on for not going to the police.
I just I was amazed at the ignorance. But it's
not ignorance, it's a you of women.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Right right, And it's still in today with like if
she really was scared, if she really did go through
these things, you would go to the police and yeah,
have you seen the police state?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
They probably wouldn't even taken that case.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
They probably would have just been like, oh, we'll take
care of it and let you walked out. Like the
amount of like question and especially the fact that it's
happening today in nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
What were you wearing, what were you doing? Did you
go in with him alone?
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Just saying that you were at the store with him
would probably be like, no, you don't have a case,
and I would have dismissed it.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
There's nothing.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
The minute I read those sentences from him, I was angry.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
I was like, what the hell are you talking about?
Do you not know about?
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Like the amount of cases that actually never go in
front of the court ever when they are reported.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Oh no, it's only out of a thousand cases, it's
out of a thousand, it's only that go to trial
and the man is convicted. I think a thousand. I
think five, Yeah, convicted, I think a single digit number
for sure. Yeah, No, it's it's shock.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Yeah exactly exactly which is, which is amazing because we've
had episodes when we talked about Me too era, like
that's kind of how we started as a duo, talking
about you know, triggers and trauma warnings and why things
like this, especially in the Me Too era, was important.
But we also talked about the importance of civil lawsuits
and how they are most of the time the only
(49:15):
way to get any justice anyway. In the sexual assault cases,
they're sexual haress.
Speaker 4 (49:20):
But nobody has enough money to do the thing.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
And they don't even know how to do that.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yeah, there's so much to that conversation about why and
then also just in the like ideal of suing immediately
gets pitched as she's a gold digger, she's a money
immediately immediately, but like a case like yours has changed
the trajectory, especially with you being so loud about how
this is about reclaiming my name and how important that is.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Just alone, that was really the only thing, and in
the end it did. It did as Robbie ke and
figure out it would hurt him to give a bunch
of money, right, particularly if we gave the money away
to help women.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
Exactly the fact that he's losing on such a large platform,
large scale is beautiful to see because it takes more
and more to be like to see. No people are
understanding how bad this really was and the fact that
he can't let it go is also something that shows
like how much of an ego and the sociopathy is.
Speaker 4 (50:30):
Yeah, it's impossible for women because difficult to sue a
powerful man because a powerful man will always be believed
over the woman, always, always, in every situation. Then if
she decides to sue him, he will sue her back
for defamation for millions of dollars. Then the woman gets
(50:53):
frightened because she does not have millions of dollars, and
she will you know, it's that's what's that's why this
doesn't happen unless you have somebody, unless you run into
George Conway at a party, unless you could. You know,
(51:15):
it's really because Donald Trump and my friend who I
told almost immediately after the attack, Carol Martin, the great
New York's anchor woman who's an icon in New York.
Tacopina beat up on her bad. Don't beat up on
Carol Martin. Don't put Carol Martin on the stand. No,
(51:39):
do not do that. Do not put Carol Martin on
the stand he walked in at anyway, she was a
woman that I told almost immediately afterwards, and she said,
don't go to the police. He's got two hundred lawyers.
He will bury you. Yeah, So Tacopina course had to
(52:00):
ask her all about that. But uh, yeah, it's just
that men had lawyers. Women don't have lawyers. Unless you're
Cheryl Shamburg or somebody, you may have a lawyer or two.
But so it's a hard situation. It's a hard situation.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
It is, and one of the things that was in
the book frustrating, but also I think all of us
we're living through this right now, is that it's not
a surprise. We've seen this pattern of behavior with Trump.
He pretty much told us in the infamous Access Hollywood tape,
like what kind of person he is? When I was
reading your book, and I was like, no, I've heard
(52:42):
about that case.
Speaker 4 (52:43):
I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Like I was like, oh my gosh, we know this
about him, And it's just it wasn't enough to prevent
him from becoming president twice, and so it can feel
very disheartening. But you did win against him.
Speaker 4 (53:02):
Twice, Like that's right, that's right, baby. So how did
it feel?
Speaker 2 (53:08):
I know you talked about it in the book, but
how did that feel when you were waiting for the
verdicts and then after you got the.
Speaker 4 (53:14):
Verdicts, well, waiting for the verdicte, I felt sort of
the weight. Well, first of all, it's impossible, but I
feel the weight of all And I know many of
these are the twenty three, the twenty seven to forty
three women who all have said come forward. It's not
(53:34):
just me, not just the access how I would taking,
it's all the other women who've accused him. So I
felt that. But the waiting, it's impossible to win a
sexual assault case because there's no witnesses. We happen to
have a lot of witnesses. Then we went out, the
(53:55):
jury left. Judge Lewis a Kaplan who should be on
the Sistine Chapel as God himself. One of the most
terrifying men I have ever seen in my life. Conservative
by the book Break No Rules. In his courtroom, he
(54:15):
and a Lina Hobba. Oh my god, he actually said,
right before the jury went out, uh bringing them missus Habba,
you are within minutes of going to lock up because
she she actually asked him. She said, your honor, I
(54:36):
don't like to be spoken to that way. To Judge
Leuis anyway, So when the jury goes out and you've
presented your case in the first one, in the first trial,
where we worked so hard and prepared so hard, we
actually presented a very strong case. But Takapina is one
(54:57):
of the great attorneys in the country and very persuasive
with a jury, very peruisive. However, our jury was not
a Manhattan jury, even though you'll read it a thousand
million times on Twitter they wanted New York the Manhattan year. No,
it was an upstate jury full of people from the
(55:23):
Trump counties. Robbie tried to get one of them taken
off the jury because he was such a follower of
Tim Poole as a conservative who had actually talked about
me several times on his podcast, and one of the
liar I was on Robbie trying to get Judge Katherln
here again he follows the rule. Judge Kaplan had a
(55:44):
private interview with this jury and said, can you fairly
render a bridique in this case? And the man said
yes he could. Judge Caplin says he stays on the jury,
so we really thought we were going to get a
hung jury. We've got trumpers on the jury, and we
(56:09):
had exactly the kind of jury that we didn't want.
We had six men, and they're the guys who all
said that she's too ugly in the mock trial, and
we had three women. So it was pretty terrifying. So
we go out at lunchtime. We're in a big, marble,
(56:29):
beautiful room where we were waiting. Your voice echoes gorgeous,
is in the Federal Court Room, which is the Mother Court.
We're in the Mother Court of the United States of America,
the first court that held session even before the Supreme Court.
So it's really it's a historic place. And I'm a
(56:52):
wreck and I keep asking This team of attorneys is
just brilliant, and I keep asking each one when do
you think the jury will come back? And it was
obvious that they had eleven questions to answer in this trial.
Eleven questions. So my team, the entire team, believed that
(57:15):
would take days. And the team was, uh, not only
thought it would, they were certain of it because my
team had the team was so brilliant. We had uh
a clerk for just Justice Ruth bader Ginsburg. We had
one of the clerks for just as Kennedy. We had
(57:40):
a clerk for the Who's now clerking was so my ore.
This is the level of the team we had, and
there their things. A genie's gonna take days. Just go
calm down. So I went into our little witness room.
I was taking a nap and bang the door opens,
(58:03):
ferd Exa in I, well, can you imagine I'm nearly
had a heart attack? Days and days? Is going to
take days and days? I got a loving questions to answer.
Are they have to take days and day? You? And
the man who opened the door was the Duke of Ferrara,
(58:25):
Mike Farra, the great Mike Fharra, who presented our case
so perfectly, and who wrung the jury's heart. Man, he
you know, just banged on them because Takapter kept saying,
because I laughed, because I went to a couple of
parties that I couldn't have been sexually sauld. Mike Ferrara
(58:46):
had lost his wife to cancer, and he said, when
something bad happens in your life, just that mean you
can't go on with your life. You can't go on
and enjoy your life. Can't. You can't. Can't go on
with your career and go to work. You can't go
on with it. Uh what does is that? What is
(59:08):
that what Joe Tacopina is saying.
Speaker 6 (59:10):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (59:10):
So his final argument was it was brilliant. So he's
the one who opens on and he looks frightened to death.
And when I saw that, the Duke of rar looked frightened,
I mean I was seized with terror. So we staggered
back in the courtroom and Judge Katherlin said, had you
chosen a leader? And the woman stands up, one of
(59:33):
the three women, So that was a good sign, and
the verdict came in. It was, without a doubt, the
happiest moment of my life. It was you could feel
the people in the courtroom just a sind with joy.
(59:53):
And I understand that news whipped around the world boom boom, boom.
And there was an off Broadway play in production at
the time and in a very serious scene and from
what I hear, and a producer ran out on stage
said Carol One, and everything stopped and the house lights
(01:00:17):
flashed on and off. That's what it was like in
New York. Now, it was it was impossible. We did it.
It was incredible. And Robbie and I were in the
car after the great win, you know, making our way
through the press and the white balls and everything. We
(01:00:37):
got in the car. We went through Chinatown and then
up through Soho and then through the village, and Robbie's
on her phone just yacking her brains out, calling everybody
she knows, getting congratulations over there. And I'm sitting in
the other corner of the car looking out and I'm thinking,
Donald Trump, this is your town, baby, and I just
(01:01:02):
beat Thish daddy. So it was. It was incredible. It
was incredibly right.
Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
I love so much of this And honestly, one of
the things that we were told that we need to
ask you about why you're fabulous, But honestly, just in
the first ten minutes, I kind of knew why you're fabulous,
(01:01:32):
just from your book.
Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
I absolutely know why you're fabulous.
Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
And I want to like just bathe in your aura
because it is fabulous.
Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Okay, I want that to be noted.
Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
But also you kind of already mentioned this earlier, and
I think it's important because this good closure to this
interview is you were awarded five million in the first trial,
and then eighty three point three million in a second.
But as you had eluded, this wasn't for you, it
was for women, It.
Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
Was for the victims. It was for those who are survivors.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Can you kind of talk about with getting this money,
what you're going to do with it?
Speaker 4 (01:02:13):
Well, I love to talk about it, but it's changing
every day when I think. You know, when I first started,
I thought, we'll get women's reproduction right back, That's how
we're going to spend the money. And now every day
there's some sort of tragic development with the immigrants and
(01:02:33):
with the arts, and with everything being taken away so rapidly.
I just don't know what. It's just going to have
to We're going have to see, we're going to have
to take a look see where it can best be spent.
What do you think, What do you think?
Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
God, a chunk of it goes to the lawyers. Of course,
of course they deserve it.
Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Yeah, I think that's tricky it all. I guess it
would also depend, as you're saying, we are living in
a very rapidly changing environment. So when you actually get it, yeah,
and looking at where it could be best implemented. But
(01:03:18):
as you said, like I do love the idea of
giving it to things Trump hates.
Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
That's a very fun if he hates it. If he
hates it, that's what I was going to give it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
I think definitely you got to go for like the
queer community as well as a reproductive community as well
as sexual assault survivors, Like those three are a really
good way because obviously those are things that he absolutely have.
That's part of the reason he won with the immigration
as well, Like those are the things he went on,
so going after things that he's trying to disassemble.
Speaker 4 (01:03:48):
Right, I think on the cake, Yeah, particularly when you
think that you know the numbers of women who have
been sexual assault, because he was so high sky high
that people don't even can't even begin to grasp how
many people. I mean, because number one, there reporting is
not that's not accurate.
Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Oh no, And like just recently when we were talking
about DEI and the fact that he's like, oh, this
is all DEI. But the actuality is it actually hurts
nonprofits like violence shelters, sexual assault, assault awareness stuff like
those things that people were like adamantly like, yes, we
need to help women who are in domestic violent situations.
Speaker 4 (01:04:25):
We need a god, yes, but.
Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
They don't care enough to see that those other things
that they think is happening is actually taking money away
from that.
Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
So stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
It's definitely so I am.
Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
I'm an old lady. I beat Donald Trump twice. So
it makes no sense to me that the Ivy League
universities and the big media companies and the big corporations
have been in the need of Downald Trump because they're
fighting him. I don't that. I don't understand. So what
(01:05:04):
I'm worried about is if they're worried, this is why
people across the land are being quiet and aren't moving,
aren't standing up, are raising their voices because he's got
everybody boguarded. Right, So I'm going back to one of
(01:05:25):
the oldest things mankind. It's an old old idea, older
than actually older than mankind. It's called signaling. When a
population is being attacked or oppressed, there are ways for
individuals to signal their support from one another. Right, we
(01:05:49):
don't have that signal. MAGA has the red hats, we
don't have them. So I suggest that we all take
an item which can picklocks, which can open handcuffs, which
when straightened out, becomes a lethal weapon, which stands for
(01:06:12):
holding things together and unity. I'm suggesting we all start
wearing the paper clip as a signal of our support
for the anti trumpers as against the president. I it's
very simple, So I wearing this paper clip. We all
(01:06:38):
put on a paper clip. We can see our sisters
and brothers who are also not liking what's going on
in the country. We don't have the Maga hat, but
we have this sly, subtle, sneaky and at work. If
you're going to get in trouble, put it on your
pantcuff or put it on your strap for your bag.
(01:07:01):
What do you think.
Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
I like it multifunctional, that's going to be.
Speaker 4 (01:07:06):
Well, Samantha. I want you to start wearing it right
now and and when you start wearing it, because we
need influencers to do it, and you too, got a
lot of influence. So if you will every day put
on a paper clip. You got one at home, You
probably got one there where you are and behind you.
(01:07:27):
I know you've got a paper clip in there somewhere.
That's the question.
Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
It's a mess back there.
Speaker 4 (01:07:33):
I think the paper clup. We need to recognize each
other and this is just subtle. You know, we got
start doing it. I like it and for your listeners,
clip it on, babes, clip it on. You know.
Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
I'm also really mad that Donald Trump ruined red hats.
Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Yea, even if it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
Even if it doesn't say and I'm like, this isn't fair.
Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
He shouldn't have gotten to do this.
Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
He ruined the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
He actually ruined the American flag too, to be fair,
so he's.
Speaker 4 (01:08:11):
Not ruining the paper clip. This is a big This
is a big symbol from the World War Two. Yeah,
this is what they wore to show resistance to the
Nazi occupation and wore paper clips. Sell. Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 4 (01:08:27):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Another thing I have to ask you, because you do like,
what is it about podcasts that you like? Because you
mentioned it before as being a powerful tool, and why
do you have one?
Speaker 4 (01:08:38):
St No, No, I'm a good guest, but I'm not
a host. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
You have your whole column that was asked. So I
think I think you need to do a podcast. People
asking you questions come on once a week, once a week.
Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
I couldn't, I couldn't you know what you started at
the top, and you were asking those questions are there?
Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
You're already there.
Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
I can't no, no, But I love the guests. I
love being a guest. I could not do it. First
of all, Almost half the questions that I answered in
the twenty some thirty years of writing an advice I changed. Now.
Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
They just we could revisit those questions.
Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Not me, man, no, no, I'm out of the advice business.
And all I say now is yeah, do it?
Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
Hey, that might be exactly what we need that or
the fabulousness are you telling us?
Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
Yes, do this?
Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
Do it?
Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
Joy mankind, do it?
Speaker 5 (01:09:39):
Do it?
Speaker 4 (01:09:42):
That's it, that's all. Yeah, that's all we need to do.
Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
Yeah, that's a good podcast. I'm just there.
Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
Well, let us know if you decided to do it. Yes, and.
Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Always, always, always, we would love to have you back.
There's so much we'd like to talk about.
Speaker 4 (01:09:59):
You guys are ass when you are a delight? Where
can the good listeners find you? You've got a lot
going on, a lot of books on the podcast. Well,
first of all, where can they find you? Because they
can't find me unless they can find you, So where
are they finding you?
Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
That's it. I feel like I've been a kind some
kind of mind trap question, because if they're not listening,
I know what's even happening now, Well, listeners, you can
find EJ. Carrol on a wonderful episode of stuff I've
Never told you, which is available wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 4 (01:10:32):
That's it that you can give me on the bookstore,
not my type and on substack e gen Girl subset.
Yes the world is on substack. Now are you guys
on subseack?
Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
Not yet?
Speaker 4 (01:10:45):
What podcast?
Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
Every day?
Speaker 4 (01:10:49):
You literally do not have time to be on substack.
You don't have time.
Speaker 6 (01:10:54):
She has two podcasts, so I know that that crazy
and I understand it.
Speaker 4 (01:11:02):
I'm with you. Well, you had to be very good
at it, so you do what you're good at. That's
so do two of them. Hell yeah, yeah, you do
two of them. That's good. So this is good. So
you'll you'll you'll call me anytime please if.
Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
You give us that invitational Billy you want to call
him this month? What about this month? So don't don't
open it too high because I'm gonna need to be
in your fabulousness.
Speaker 4 (01:11:26):
Oh, thank thank you, thank you thing. And also you
get a fifth time you got you're on here every day.
Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
It's more than just that, but yes, true, so much more.
Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for
being here.
Speaker 4 (01:11:41):
It's been a delight, it's been amazing, it's been fabulous.
Thank you so again.
Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Please go check out Eugene Carrol and this book. It's
it's really really fantastic and her writing style is really wonderful,
So go check it out. If you would like to contact.
Speaker 4 (01:12:00):
Us, you can.
Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
You can email us at Hello at stuff Onennever Told
You dot com. You can also find us on Blue
Sky at also Podcasts, or on Instagram and TikTok at
stuff I Never Told You. We're us on YouTube and
we have a new place you can get merch called
Cotton Bureau, so check that out, and we have a
buck you can get where you get your books. Thanks
as always to our super producer Chestine or executive producer
and a contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks to you
(01:12:23):
for listening. Stuff I Never Told You is production by
Heart Radio. For more podcast from my Heart Radio, you
can check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
if you listen to your favorite shows
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