SMNTY Classics: SMNTY Ships It

Shipping has gone from a derided part of fandom to a mainstream component, and with that has come good and bad. We talk about the history and psychology of shipping, and why shipping should be included in our conversations about the beauties and toxicities of fandom in this classic episode.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Sanny and Smantha falcome stuff. I'll never
told you protection I heard you, and welcome to a
classic uh one that has been on my mind as
of late. As you will know if you listened to

(00:27):
our recent dappy hours. This comes out how about queer wating,
and it's about shipping and how that can look and
how the ups and downs, the highs and lows of shipping.
I do have to say it's pretty funny when you
start looking at it, because me and my best friend

(00:48):
were like, you know, if we were on TV, they
probably would ship us just because you start looking at
things didn't really like, wait a minute, oh okay, which
is a very fun It was a fun exercise and
we got to go down, don't you?

Speaker 2 (01:03):
And Lauren?

Speaker 1 (01:04):
There is fan fiction of me. I don't know if
anybody ever published the ones with me and Lauren. There
was one being bridge it too. Oh I haven't looked,
and they were super cute. I found them very sweet,
and it was very funny because they immediately pegged me
as the shy one and Lauren and Bridget as the
more forward one. It was it was interesting because it

(01:27):
was like reading a version of yourself that people here
see in a digital space, but they don't actually know you,
so I didn't. I was not weird a doubt about
it at all. I thought it was kind of funny,
and I appreciated that they because it was a couple
of listeners and they wrote in to me and was like,
here it is. So I appreciated that they were open
enough to share that with me because I did enjoy it,

(01:50):
which I don't know. Maybe that makes me sound really pompous,
but I just thought it was cute. But yes, I
have gone on a whole journey lately and I've learned
a lot, so I thought I would bring back this
classic episode, although I think we're also going to have
to update this one not with some things that's a
problem for future us. In the meantime, please enjoy. Hey,

(02:15):
this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Staphone Ever
told you protection of iHeartRadio, And today we are recording
an episode that I'm not sure when it will come out,
but I'm very excited about it.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
We've been talking about this episode for a minute.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, we have actually I think over a year at least,
but it was I really got a catalyst when our
friend of the show. Listener Jamie wrote in and suggested, quote,
what about shipping and problematic ships like the non con
forcing a sexual aspect into a friendship and shipping wars

(02:59):
with the related internet abuse, which for some of you,
I bet you're like, what does that mean? We're gonna
talk about it, We're gonna break it all out. But yeah,
this is this is a big conversation right now, and
it's changed so much since I started being Fanish in
the fan space, so there's a lot to go over

(03:21):
in a lot of history. This might be a two parter.
I don't think it will be, but who knows. We'll see,
We'll see.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
You always have like I feel like you and I
have both are like, it's not gonna be that long,
and it ends up being either the full amount and
then some and especially for those who are like maybe well,
but then again, we've also had those moments it's like,
this is gonna be really long, and then it ends
up being not.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Not yeah, yes, yes, it's so it's hard to say
because I do have a lot of thoughts about this,
and I'm actually going to put my thoughts at the
end of this episode slash episodes, but I'm built they'll
be throughout. I'm sure. I just have a lot of opinions.

(04:00):
So very brief spoilers for Good Omens season two, very
vague h and at the end and I'll give a
heads up. But uh, big part of the conversation right now,
shall I say?

Speaker 2 (04:12):
My TikTok is full of Michael and David like doing
their little uh parody shows is the entire thing. And
I guess because Good Omens too had come out, there's
more like ads and I'm like, why I don't even
know them? That will help, but they're really funny.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
It also could be that you sent me one.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
I did well because I've been getting them in my feet.
I was like, why am I getting so much of
this content? And then when I asked, dude, you were like, no,
I haven't seen because they did the whole Zoom show
web series, I believe with the director from Good Omens,
and I was like, have you not seen this? Well,
you definitely have to because it's right up your rally
and I've never seen good Omens either.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
I do love good Omens. Oh well, getting into so
today we are talking about shipping, but I guess that
we should start with a definition for people who might
not know what is shipping.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yes, and I love that this is from Urban Dictionary,
because we do talk about a lot of like fanfic
words from Urban Dictionary, don't we. So it is from
Urban Dictionary. The act of one wanting supporting two individuals
involved in a romantic relationship a verb used to describe
the action of wishing for two people to enter a relationship,

(05:29):
whether romantic or occasionally platonic, in books, movies, tv shows,
or real life. Shipping can often happen involuntarily, and it
is the majority of what happens on the website Tumblr,
really tumbler. There are some very popular ships, some unpopular,

(05:50):
as well as often lots of controversy between ships from
the same fando.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
I would also say that it can include two or
more individuals. This says two people, It can be it
can be more poly cool. But yeah, that's that's pretty
that's pretty good. Uh, that's where the name comes from.
Relationshipping shipping.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, and you know what with people who are not
a part of the fanfic world, because I've noticed this
as I'm on like a lot of the K pop
yep tiktoks that when they do the shipping. I get
very confused thinking it's real because they do this like
montage and I'm like, wait, are they is this true?
I'm very confused, and I think it take it as
a reality because when they do that with real people,

(06:34):
I'm very I'm very confused about what just happened.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Essentially, Oh yes, oh my gosh, I'm glad you brought
that up actually, because I'm not even going to talk
about in here, but that is something people do, like
we'll make videos, will make this content that you're like,
wait what.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
And then they'll just like rumored things on there that
I'm like, what did that happen? Did that really happen?
Where they're like the main of course, the ones that
I've seen the most of has been like Stray Kids
and of course BTS, but the BTS one has kind
of wavered down, and the stray Kads have a lot
more content because of it, Like they're very affectionate kids

(07:13):
with each other, Like I'm not sure if they are
if they are together, wonderful, But I'm like, y'all are
confusing me as a person who has no idea what's
happening in this shipping fanfic world. And then you put
two real people and then put this like glossy montage
of them that I'm like, did that really happen? Is
that a thing?

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Oh? Yes, it's a whole it's a whole world.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
So confused. And then and I would assume that because
they are idols of swords, that the people, the fans
would not want them to be together since they're in
love with them. I thought or like they had a
you know, like but apparently it really is a thing,
a big thing that they want them to be together.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
I have a lot of thoughts about this, actually, oh,
because I think and it's understandable, people get weirded out
when people ship real people. And trust me, as we've
discussed several times on the show, there are problems with that,
especially when you start hating on a real life person, right,

(08:15):
But I also think that a lot of times when
people ship real life people, or when they write fanfic
about real life people, that's it's not a it's not
someone you know, it's not somebody you've ever met, so
it is almost like a fictional character in that way.
And usually one person and we actually are going to

(08:38):
talk about this, but there's like a stand in for
the person you think you're like and stand in for
the person you want to be with. Right.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
I feel like you've mentioned that before in our fanfic episodes,
but like, I found that interesting because it actually has
damaged some people's reputations because in things like South Korea
Asian countries, which is very like homophobic hunt trees, when
they did that, there would be rumors swirling about and
then like papers that would be coming out be like no,

(09:06):
that's not true, and having to like separate people so
even if they're really good friends, they can't be around
each other because of these like made up stories about
real people. So I'm like, oh, that's sad, but that's
an odd It's such an odd phenomenon when you see
fanfic like that go like overlapping real life.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
It is interesting. I know I've said it before, but
I've I've read some fan fiction about myself and I
was like, oh, cool to me.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
That's closing way. Do you have a ship? Is there
a ship for you and Lauren?

Speaker 1 (09:43):
There's been a ship between me and Lauren. There's been
a ship between me and Bridget. I haven't checked since
you came on. I don't know, but oh, I didn't think.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
I'm not gonna lie. I mean, I guess that makes sense,
especially if it's about you, And.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
I'm like, huh, set yourself.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
Would I be in that one? Would I be the like,
the unapproachable one, because isn't that how it goes? It's
the hard that's one that gets hard, that's hard, that
has to stop it up for one person.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Uh kind of, And I swear we actually are going
to talk about this. And I didn't know about this,
but I was like, oh my god. There's usually I'm
usually like the shy, embarrassed yes, and then everyone else
that I've been shipped with is like, come to this
bar with.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Me, oh dear, which would be hilarious and very fictional,
because I'm the one like, I'm not going to a
bar my house and hang out.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
But that's kind of my point is that there's like
this understanding of that's funny, this flash, these flashes we
get of people online or how we understand them to be,
so it does feel kind of fictional. Like when I
read something like that, I'm like, oh, no, it's not.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
It's obviously not me, but but thank you.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
I was like, oh, go to that bar eddie.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Bar touch our hot fingers lightly at each.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Other's drinks so furiously, oh my gosh, and turn around.
Maybe this will be a two part and we haven't
even gotten a segad definition.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's too good to get
into before we start. So let's jump into the second
part of the definition.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yes, yes, so this is from fan lore wiki. Shipping
and fandom is the act of supporting our wishing for
a particular romantic relationship that is a het, different sex slash,
male slash male, fem slash female female, or polly three
or more characters ship by discussing it, writing meta about it,

(11:52):
or creating other types of fan works exploring it. Fans
who have and promote favorite ships are called shippers. They
might assert that the relationship does exist or will exist
in canon, that they would like it to exist, are
simply that they enjoy imagining it. Shippers who support multiple
ships within a single canon are often referred to as

(12:12):
multi shippers, especially if they support those ships equally. The
relationships that fans promote or wish for are not all happy,
fluffy bunny ones. Fans also enjoy enemy slash and wrong shipping.
We're going to talk about that more later.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
But yeah, I'm sorry, I'm so old, but wrong ship.
It was like, as I know, you send it to
the wrong address.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
I've seen reactions like that, so I don't think you're alone.
It has got a lot more mainstream though, we're going
to talk about. Some shippers support relationships that are portrayed
or acknowledged as established in canon. Some shippers like relationships
that exist only as subtext, whether intentional or accidental, itself
a topic of debate, and some prefer relationships where the

(12:58):
characters have no subtext discern bole to non shippers. Some
fans ship characters who never even appear in Cannon together.
Later I'll talk about that. It is important to note
that some percentage of fans actively do not want their
ship to become canon, especially wrong shippers and fans who
don't trust the shows and writers to do it right.

(13:22):
Shippers have been known to regret it when their wish
came true. There's a very famous example of that we'll
talk about. And yes, okay, so I didn't know about this,
but when I read it, I was like, oh, obviously,
there's also anti shippers. Are no romos, no romance.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Why does that sound like an insult? I don't like that.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
King who actively don't want romance between characters. They can
be just as passionate as shippers in their fight against
a ship, and some of the earliest online no romos
feel that they lost when Moulder and Scully's relationship became canon,
because if you haven't seen X files, that's actually where

(14:07):
shipping the term first showed up. They did, Moulder and
Scully did eventually get together, and.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
So was it always the plan? Though?

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Oh I don't think so. But yeah. They often say
that they want to believe that relationships can be platonic.
Gonna break that down later too. There's a lot to
break down in this.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
I think this is going to be a two part
of right.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
I think we'll see this is fun. We'll all find
out together. It is something fandoms love to fight over,
and sometimes in a healthy way and sometimes in a
very very very unhealthy way, but it is often something
people bond over too. The ship typically has a name,
and sometimes one of the first questions fans will ask

(14:54):
each other when that Dido song came out, I will
go down with this ship at became a very popular meme,
especially because David Boriannis was in that music video and
Angel Buffy Spike shipping.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
Which has a hall a lot of shipping, I'm sure,
because also has her own little.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
She does she does Buffy the Vampire Slayer is big
in this conversation, so you can look forward to that too.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
It's supernatural too. Yeah, I think that's the first notification
of me knowing about shipping was of course Dusty l
But I was.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Like, what is that? Oh, yes, yes, yes, I.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Feel like that's my theme phrase. What exactly?

Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yes, I think so as.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
A dragon Con approaches, I think this will come out
after Dragon Coon. But one of the first questions I
would get sometimes from people when I was dressed as
the Winter Soldier would be are you Stucky or are
you whatever the name is for the Black Widow and
Bucky ship, which I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yes, really, oh yes, I would have thought more Falcon
and Bucky. Well.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
I think after the show came out, because I remember
watching that being like, you guys are really leaning into
this sexual tension here, and a lot of people texted
me and were like, is this what you're talking about
with fan fictional? Like yeah, but I hadn't at that point.
I wasn't dressing as the Winter Soldier anymore so much.
But yeah, it's just funny to me that people come

(16:45):
up and that was what they wanted to know, was
who ship?

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Interesting?

Speaker 1 (16:50):
And okay? Apparently the ship name for Catnus and Peta
from the Hunger Games is penis.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
What do you gotta do?

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Like that? That's so true?

Speaker 2 (17:01):
Why that was made up by people who did not
want Peta and Gattus to get together. They wanted was
his name. I'm so good at not knowing any characters.
I love that I sell like so old and outdated
because I can't remember a damn character.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
The funny thing is, you're so much better than me
at actors names. I get so much better at character.
I can't remember the character. I know the act We
were fitting together, though, this is this is.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Why we are okay, this is the ship that I
just finished Your sentence is the entire time, or that
you finished mine.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
That's kind of I translate for you, you translate for me.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
It's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
I don't know if they pronounce it penis, but it's
pronounced pet and catus, so I feel like it's penis.
Somebody right and let me so.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
The Gillness is the one that made this, Yeah, ship name,
I think.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
I hope that's true. That is very funny. Steve Rogers
and Tony Stark is Stony. I found this whole like
chart of the names and I was laughing so hard
it was great. That's pretty good Stony. I mean, come on,
people do get really excited about the smallest things when

(18:19):
they ship something or ship someone, and it'll be like, oh,
did you see that, Look you've seen me do this. Yes,
they're in love your honor. Oh. People will write essays
affording their theory. They write fan fiction, they make fan art,
they'll make predictions. They get invested. There are websites dedicated

(18:39):
to ships. There are websites dedicated to like anti ships,
people you don't want to go together. There are tumbler communities.
There are discords. That's one of my favorite tags and
fan fiction was whatever ship discord made me do it?
So yeah, people are into it. And also, yes, the
sex and subtext is a big joke, which they hit

(19:00):
they had on Supernatural. They did. Oh, but that's basically
implying like you're kind of reading into these the meta
of the whole thing. In my experience in the fictional
shipping world, not celebrities. People largely ship two men. They're

(19:20):
often two white men, and often interviews the celebrities who
play these characters. Those interviews are used for evidence too,
and they are often asked who they ship. Uh.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, I did find it interesting that when it's just shipping,
it means two men automatically instead of just two people
instead of and then having to be like fim ship
And I was like, oh wait they had.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
To add that.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Well that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Well actually, okay, so got welled. Actually yeah you did,
Yeah you did. No, No, you're right, you're right. But
I didn't realize this. Once you account for non fan
fake specific fan spaces, there are a lot more hetero ships.
So slash is a very fan fiction name.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Left slash not ship.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Sorry yeah yeah, yeah, So slash is very from fan fiction,
and I we've talked about the history of it before
and then fem slash comes from that. And I actually
read a really fascinating like nineteen ninety three, what were
those called bulletin board you know, those like online bulletin

(20:31):
board spaces. Anyway, it was like a little short thing
where someone was saying. She was making the point that
people who were so supportive of Slash weren't supportive of
them Slash, and it was really fascinating because she was like,
I can see you only support this one type of
thing and not this other thing, like that really upsets you,

(20:53):
but this doesn't. It was cool. It was cool.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
That's interesting. I don't know, Like, again, I'm not part
of this, but I'm very into the K drama world.
And in that same scope, they really love the bl
which we've talked about in the K drama episodes or
any typically any Asian episodes, which is like the title is,
it's not what it sounds like because in the US
we're like, what does that boy love? But essentially like
ment two men together, and that's kind of the entire

(21:19):
it's a whole genre, and they there's so much of
that way more than there's about two women in which
I thought was odd. But again, the people who are
eating up this content are typically women.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Mm hmm, yep, yep. You can see our fan fiction
episode for that. I think I also did one on
specifically on Slash. But there's a lot of theories where
that is, there's actually like research papers and books about
it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Is it carries over just like romances especially.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
I did find many articles that reported how queer fan
fiction helps people come out realize they were queer, and
so this is a big part of like when you
start shipping and you're like, oh, this is queer relationship,
I'm shipping this, and then people will be like, wait
a minute, let me think about this a bit more.
Which speaking of Yeah, while this term is relatively recent,

(22:12):
it was first used in nineteen ninety three in regards
to exiles fandom, which was my oh maybe I'm queer moment.
People have been doing this forever. I found really fun
examples from like Jane Austen, like Sherlock Holmes way back
like it's really fascinating. However, the Internet and social media
really allowed for these ship communities to grow, for people

(22:35):
to find each other, but it also allowed for bad
behavior to be amplified, and it has led to a
lot of Internet abuse and interestingly, in the early days,
shipping was mocked and looked down upon. Sometimes it was
even viewed as you saying, like something that you're all
enjoying is not perfect, heaven forbid, Like you're not a

(22:56):
real fan because you're like wanting more, maybe you're being weird. Uh,
And people who shipped would get email attacks or harassed.
But now it's definitely gone mainstream and with that we
have seen a lot of issues and it's just funny
to me and looking back at this where I'm like,
now it's just you don't ship who I want you

(23:17):
to ship, get to say, the attacks and the harassment.
But back then, apparently people who ship forgetting that strange.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Can you come a long way? Baby?

Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yes, yes we have. But that brings us to shipping wars,
which is one of the biggest issues.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
So literal, I'm like, you ups wars.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
We should have had you do like your version of
what you thought this was this was and compared it.
It would have been great. So wh from teen Vogue
and where they're shipping, there are ship wars aggressive in
community beefs between fandom factions that focus on different ships

(24:10):
in the same piece of media or fandom. Ship wars
have a rich history of stirring up heightened emotion. Back
when Buffy the Vampire Slayer dominated online fandom, one of
the biggest ship wars in fandom history revolved around Buffy's
relationships with two of the hottest and most toxic vampires
this side of the Vampire Diaries extended universe Spike and Angel. Yes,

(24:32):
more on that in a second. Oh my gosh. I
did see Final Fantasy seven, and I've talked about it
on a hear before, But the whole thing in that
game was based on decisions you made. You would end
up with one of like four people, but really two people,
Tifa and Earth, and people would pick sides like, obviously

(24:55):
he should have gone with Earth, Obviously he should have
gone with Tifa, and that was kind of programmed into
the game. That was like, there was this whole thing
where Eric died spoilers, but that game's really old, and
it would There was this belief if you were nicer
to her, if you did all these things, if you
were in a romantic relationship, she would live, which she wouldn't,

(25:16):
but there was a belief so that she would. So
people really pick sides. Another big one is Team Edward
versus Team Jacob from Why Yes And then I totally
forgot about this, but when I read about it, I
was like, oh my gosh. Yes, the Harmony Wars the Harmonians.
People were so pissed Samantha. Oh my gosh, there was

(25:39):
a whole live journal about killing off Ron Weasley in
as many ways as possible, because essentially this was people
who thought Harry and Hermione should be together.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Right, I mean people really hated on Jenny. You really
hated Oh, yes, poor actress.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yes. So this was before a lot of this was
happening as people were going online more. Harry Potter is
still one of the biggest fan communities fan fiction communities
that exist. And there was this big break between the
Goblet of Fire and Order of Phoenix and before that,

(26:16):
like so no one knew who was going to end
up with whom, but people had all this time to speculate.
So there was the Harmonians the I think it was
called the USS Harmoniums, so it was like a ship anyway,
So they were like really adamant that this was how
it was going to go. And then JK. Rowling said

(26:37):
in an interview, Oh, no, it's definitely not that, And
one of the interviewers said Harmonians were delusional and there's
kind of laughter and all the stuff. JK. Rolling backtracked
about it. She didn't attach herself to the word delusional,
but was also kind of like, yeah, but she did

(26:58):
say she thought she had dropped these huge hints and
that it was obvious who was going to end up
with whom. From Claire McBride over at Sci Fi Wire,
but even early on, the tension between these two factions
ran hot. Sugar Quill, one of the first Harry Potter
specific Fick archives, refused to accept Harry Hermione fan fiction

(27:19):
on the grounds that it was not canon compliant. Interestingly,
they accepted remiss Serious Fick as canon compliant because you
know it was, which may have contributed to the opening
of Fiction Alley, which pointedly accepted all ships. Ship specific
fan sites and communities became the norm, allowing the factions

(27:40):
to more or less peaceably coexist, although the occasional battles
still happened up until this point, they trusted that they
were correctly reading Rolling's larger plan and that they were
the only ones doing so. They were heavily invested in
not only the veracity of their ship, but the morality
of it, valuing a relationship built on friendship over what

(28:01):
they saw as a relationship built on conflicts, among many
other values they assigned to their ship because they'd invested
so heavily in this one ship, to the detriment of
making wider connections in fandom and developing a diverse interest
in the series. Rolling's revelation threatened to invalidate not only
their ship but their fandom, so they turned their ire

(28:23):
on her. Harmonians began to openly insult Rolling, calling into
question her talent as a writer, denigrating her for being divorced,
and even insulting her personal appearance. One post even indulges
in some pearl clutching, wondering if the moral of ron
slash Hermione is really one she wants to pass down
to her daughters. This ship meant more to them than

(28:45):
the fandom did. This is the moment that birth's zero
sum shipping, a kind of blind game in ship that
only values as ship for whether or not it wins,
not whether or not it is enjoyable. And of no, oh,
this was pre Twitter, so this could have been a
lot worse. The battle. Yeah, but it was funny because

(29:09):
my mom had an opinion on this. She obviously wasn't
like dude naos, but she thought it should have been
her in her minding. And I remember being like, oh,
I don't.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Know if I ever had an opinion on it, but
it was like, yeah, it doesn't make as much sense,
but I get it. Like the side characters, he has
his own trauma he doesn't really need. I think that
was part like he doesn't need a romance right now,
he's got too much on his plate.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my mom was very it was
she was very blessed about it, but it was just
funny because like normally she wouldn't even care have a
thought about it, but she did say that. I was like,
oh yeah, but that kind of that morality that that
writer mentioned is a key point of this, because there's
this whole idea of like, my ship is better than yours.

(29:56):
Ye right, Because as I said, chips are not new.
They've been around since we've been telling stories and could
have opinions, but they have evolved. It used to be
and still is largely I would say, a fun thing.
There are plenty, plenty the majority of people who can
ship without being absolutely awful, but it's gotten way more

(30:20):
intense as where we are all online and now when
someone believes they found the OTP, the one true pairing,
they think they are right, you are wrong, and it
gets heated and outright hateful. Jamie described it as almost
a religion. A part of this is that you've interpreted
the media in question correctly, that there is just one

(30:44):
right way, one correct pairing, and if that's not, if
they don't agree with someone, then they will shame people,
harass people, shun people, docs people to swap people, even
threatened creators.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
How old are the rain for people who like are
active on those kind of boards.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
I mean, I think it depends on the specific site,
because I know we've talked about this before. If fan
fiction is like my forte so that's what I know
off the my head, But like wapad is for younger folks,
there's another one that more younger people use, And then
AO three and fanfic dot Net are like older folks.

(31:27):
And by that I mean I don't know, like my age.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Like what's the older mean?

Speaker 1 (31:33):
I mean it could go it's I think they're much
more like I would say twenty five to forty. Okay,
I think there's more outliers on that than there are wapad.
I could be wrong, which I feel is much younger, right.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
I just wondered, because you know, a that's a lot
of time and effort to go after and debate with people.
I don't know as people do that, like does it
for any all subjects, But I find interesting for fictional
characters that level of love and passion, like you have
to have some time and dedication for that.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
That's kind of part of the issue. It doesn't have
to be an issue, but part of it is if
it becomes like a consumed right all of your time
and someone's telling you in your mind you're wrong, but
you've spent all this time on it. You was like,
looked for all the clues, You've done all of this
digging and research, and so it's like you don't get it.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
I mean, I've seen you watch Star Wars and you're
telling me your theories and me just going really and
you go, wait no, but this evidence.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
Well see. The funny thing is I'm a multi shipper,
which is yes, I have a lot of ships, and
so I can be like I can take evidence and
make my case for one couple, and then that same
evidence I'll be like, disregard this couple though, which I
think is a good way to me.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
So many times I heard do you see that stayre
do you see that look don't know. No, you can't
tell me.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
People have written it about that. Look data won't look
it is. I'm not kidding people know.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
I'm sure I can. I can picture. I picture it
the moment you say it. I know what scene I'm
talking about because you've done it every time. Yep, every time.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
The dedication to that, I'm like, oh yeah, that's.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
A look, it's a lot, but that's what it is.
And that's like the fun part of it. Like when
you can just be like yeah, and then you don't
mind if someone does it agree with you.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
There was no disagreement. I'm just the nod. You get
the nod from me like oh okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
No, don't derail me because now I just want to
talk to that.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
I have look that you're having it, like contemplating do
I go down this road.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
I've had more than one friend say I didn't see
it before, but now it's you. That's right. Okay. But
speaking of from that same article from sci Fi, what

(34:20):
was once the love of two characters dynamic has become
to a small but outspoken subsection of fans, a zero
sum game. How did we get from God, I love
seeing these two together to these two need to be together,
So help me God. And this quote is going back
to that teen Vogue article, which I really recommend. I've

(34:40):
been a part of several ship wars, never an active
participant really, just a member of ships that are fought over,
and I think it all comes down to wanting to
feel right. Fandom, especially fanfic, is all about participating in
and taking ownership of the material. Colleen, a pop culture
nerd and scholar who made it through the Vultron fandom,
shares with teen Vogue. Ship war are caused by people

(35:01):
wanting their ship to be the number one correct ship,
the only one, and even if it's not canon, it's
the one. So you see things like Katong versus Zutara,
where on the one hand you have people arguing their
ship is better because it's canon and it's sweet, and
on the other hand arguing for tension and character development.

(35:21):
In that case, it's a matter of preference and power.
Each ship slash fandom wants to be in charge. Yes,
I think that's really interesting because we are going to
discuss this more. But that whole like, you go to
fan fiction because you can't find relationship you want in
canon or maybe they don't do it, and then what

(35:42):
happens when it does become canon. But essentially what most
of what I read is it comes down to this
is the quote unquote healthier relationship versus the quote unquote
unhealthier relationship, which is a for uh, you know, debate.
But yes, creators and celebrities get this abuse to even

(36:04):
extending to real life relationships of celebrities. That's something we've
talked about before. Some creators have been blackmailed in an
attempt to force a ship and make it cannon. Some
have been forced off social media, and it gets nasty,
like people will tear people up who support the opposing ship.
They will claim that there's is the least problematic ship,

(36:26):
while pointing out the problematic parts of the opposing ships
and people who ship them like it becomes like, well,
if you like this ship, then that means you're messed
up in this way, you're appear to and slash goody
two shoes, or you're actually a criminal. Then there is
the hate that is heaped onto the characters. As you
mentioned with Jenny Weasley, perhaps yeah, usually the cannon ship

(36:52):
often a woman who ruined your ship, and the person
who created them or played them, people who who did
ship with these toxic fans. So if you're like shipping
a ship and then all these toxic fans come in,
sometimes you get forced out of that ship because you're like, well, right,
you ruined it. Sometimes the creators make it worse with

(37:19):
their comments making fun of a ship or being queer baby.
Often they have no idea how much fandom is behind
a ship. I would say not always, but I feel
like a lot of the examples I wrote, I was like,
why did you say that? Which is a point to

(37:40):
an interesting disconnect between creators and their fans. MCU story
editor Matthew Schancey, who's responsible for the what if Zombie episode,
which is that like marvel Kind Alternate Realities animated series,
reportedly wanted Zombie Captain America to bite off Sharon's lips
and spit them out because quote, no one likes her.

(38:03):
Actually he belongs to Peggy, which he might have been
joking and maybe not, but it does fuel these fights
in this hate. Perhaps he did it intentionally, Perhaps he
did it, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
My only problem with that whole storyline was, wait, couldn't
he beat her grandfather?

Speaker 1 (38:20):
Now?

Speaker 2 (38:21):
A great uncle now or something. This whole timeline thing.
I'm like, this doesn't this doesn't bode well.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
I would say, I don't think the MCU has done
a romance very well. Yes, I know some people disagree
with me, but I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
I'm trying to think of a good wood.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
I think a lot of people would say like WandaVision,
but I actually don't think so.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
They worked together and then she fell alone with a
make belief thing.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, yeah, And that was my biggest hang up of
that show was is I was like, I just don't
buy your relationship because you just suddenly told me you
were dating and then he died.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
And it's also forced anyway from the Yeah, maybe I'm
not gonna get hay for that.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
It did, it did, but almost all the relationships in
the MCU felt very forced. Yeah, but anyway, anyway, we're
gonna get there right. There are even conspiracy theories that

(39:32):
for one reason or another something is cannon, but the
creators cannot admit it like it is canon. They just
can't say it's cannon. A lot and this used to
be a big thing in fan fiction, which is kind
of a lot of people brought up has kind of
gone by the wayside. But it used to be like, oh,
there was a certain tag for it, but it was like,

(39:56):
you know, uh, we were playing in our sam box.
Whatever they do, that's the thing that we're playing in
our sandbox. Whereas now it's become it's crossed the line
into oh, let's yell at them online. But it used
to be much more like, Nope, that's that's the powers
that be. That's what it was. The powers that be.
You you, that's what they've decided and that's how it is.

(40:18):
But I'm going to play in this sandbox. But now
it's become like it has to be can and which
is part of this issue. Also, yes, we have talked
about celebrity shipping, which is essentially, yeah, you're just two
real people are more than to real people. Again, but

(40:41):
that usually like the unhealthy side of that is definitely
that it has real world impacts. That impacts usually like
the celebrities new partner again is often a woman, and
this has resulted in people being forced off social media,
celebrities having tor reulease statements asking for people essentially not
harassed their partner or their ex like post about mental

(41:05):
health and all this, so that's definitely definitely an is sha.
And then, as Jamie said in the original suggestion for this,
there are some ships that are truly problematic. And from
what I've read, as mentioned, a lot of shipboards do
boil down to should person a who is torn between

(41:28):
two people go with the bad boy type or the
good guide type. And this is not It doesn't mean
that the good guys without problems. But I found out
this is known as cinemon rule ships versus trash ships,
and I was like, oh.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yes, trash ships.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
Huh trash ships. So from here's a quote about that
from Vox. For instance, a ship like Kaylux Kylo Brinn
and the minor character Hucks and the Force Awakens might
be labeled a trash ship because it's seen as a
re presentation of fandom's heavily white status quo your average
ubiquitous white dude slash pairing, and a ship like Ika

(42:07):
Body That's fun name too, Nikobod Crane slash Abbey Mills
on Sleepy Hollow might be seen as a Simon roll ship,
both because of the puereness of their love and because
one of its members is a woman of color. Again,
this is this being fandom, These issues are very layered,
controversial and complicated. So essentially, a shrash ship is like
a ship you ship even though you know it's bad,

(42:31):
you know it's problematic, you know it's toxic.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
So would would this be the Buffy and Yes what's
his name?

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Yes, Buffy and Spike. Yes, yes, I'm gonna talk about
that more in a second of so excited you bought that? Yes? Yes,
I did see some recent articles about multi shippers who
ship toxic, problematic ships and healthy, wholesome ones, and they
were saying, like, it's not mutually exclusive. Sometimes you're all happen.
Sometimes it just happens. It really does. I should people

(43:01):
have like, how did this happen? I never would have guessed.
But there are also shippers for abusive relationships, for non
consensual slash manipulaity of controlling relationships, underage relationships with massive
age differences, incest, which is kind of complicated in terms

(43:27):
of fanfic because oh yeah, I don't really I don't
read it, but I think a lot of times there's
an understanding that we all know they aren't actually related.
Plus things like Game of Thrones, like I don't.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Know, because that's the thing about super naturals, the brothers.
What are you doing.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Wincest yep Oh, one day, I'll come back to that,
And I'll also come back to ABO, which I've talked
about before. We talked about it in our dob com
episode Best Answer for Alpha Beta Omega. And it's kind
of like a secondary gender political biological type of writing

(44:15):
and relationship and those are often very toxic, but they
also are interesting in how they explore gender politics. I
have a lot of thoughts about that as well, but
we won't go into them now because that would be
a whole episode. But there's a lot of shipping in
that realm that's pretty pretty problematic. Yeah, and then, as

(44:43):
mentioned earlier, wrongshipping.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
I'm just laughing about so many things right now.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yes, So back to that fan lore wiki article. When
a fanship's two characters who really shouldn't be together, they
are wrong shipping. Wrong shipping isn't a judgment about a
fan of shipping preferences, but the recognition that the characters
in question would be a hot mess together. Wrong shipping
can also be used when the fan is in support

(45:10):
of a pairing other than the cannon o TP. So
this is sort of like, yeah, they won't gotcha.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
So I'm gonna assume from now on, I'm on, I'm
not on this, which I assume from the beginning, which
you were like you got some parts, I was like, why.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Well, I put a minute in it.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
I was just like, well, because I like me saying
that would be so out of context. I have no
idea why I'm saying this. I got it, So I'm
just I'm just gonna go with that. So I'm like, yeah,
I have no idea what that just happened.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
That's that's what it's like when you get in the
world of shipping, some man, you get lost lost in
the shipping. And then related that at the top, I
mentioned like antis, non romos, no romos. Actually this is
sort of different because there's a difference between people who

(46:05):
don't want any ship, like maybe they just don't want romance,
versus people who actively don't want a certain ship and
they have gotten in on this toxicity too. And I
found this quote from geek Dad. The most aggressive of
the bunch is a new subset of shippers collectively known
as antis from the practice oft tacking things anti ship

(46:27):
name on social media. It's a term these toxic members
of fandom. We're proudly Despite its association with combative behavior,
ANTIS appear to be a response to, among other factors,
changes in how fans interact online. As fans move from
sites like live journal, where content was opt in, to Tumblr,
where content is opped out, the method in which fans

(46:49):
consumed content changed. Thanks to ANTIS. The old adage of
early fandom don't like, don't read yep or the idea
that consumers are response for avoiding content they don't like,
has been replaced with discourse, death threats, and violence. Discussions
shifted from I don't like this too, no one should

(47:12):
like this. This often involves moral arguments. It's sort of
devolved into I can morally prove you're a terrible person
for this ship to destroy it. I thought that was
so interesting because we've talked before. I love the history
of how those technologies impact right our discourse, and in

(47:32):
this case, I didn't know that that's really cool. I
mean not cool, but like I'm glad to know it.
You can on a three you can be like I
don't want this shift to show up, but it doesn't
like populate like how Tumblr it would be like you
find all of this stuff that's like I hate this ship.
It's more like than that ship just won't show up. Yeah,

(47:57):
the quote goes on. Anti arguments may shift every time,
but the critical thing to note is one competing popular
pairings pairings that share characters with the anti favored pairing
are always problematic, and two, the anti preferred pairing is
never problematic. If you take nothing else from this article,
please take this all. This outrage isn't about protecting children,

(48:19):
or about morality or about critiquing media. It's about people
wanting their favorite characters to kiss. It's true. It's so
true though because it is, it gets real nasty the
things people will say about like why your ship is awful?
But really it does come down to probably just one

(48:40):
of these these people kids.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
It kind of reminds me of the thirty Rock episode
in which the daughter of the owner of the company
it just really likes soap operas and she's because the ship.
There was a whole ship with Tina's face character and
Alec Baldwo's character. Again, I don't remember the character's names,
any of their characters, and then and then so like

(49:02):
they played I'm going kiss, Kiss kiss and they're like, Nope,
you can't do this because I chatted it. But like,
we know, there actually was a shipping for the two
of them to be together for a while.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Which is a yeah, well it's funny. One of the
stories I'm reading right now, the author left a you
can read the notes at the ends, and they just
wrote make like smashing their faces together like two barbies,
and I was like, I mean, essentially, the quote continues.

(49:38):
Despite all of this negativity, I believe fandom is an
incredibly positive thing. I'm gay and the first time I
ever saw a gay character and a story was in
fan fiction. Fan Fiction gave me stories about people like
me when I couldn't find them anywhere else. That is
the power of transformative media like fanfic and fan art.
In a world where so many people don't get to
see themselves on TV, fandom can offer them a place

(50:00):
where they can be the hero of the story they
know and love. Fandom enables anyone to create with an
established world. It enables writers to create stories that go
beyond the canon media, and gives artists the power to
explore new scenes and what ifs. There are thousands of
people right now creating this content for free simply because
they enjoy it. And I do think that's I always

(50:23):
try to make this point because there's critiquing media is healthy.
We all like problematic things, but there's a way to
do that healthily. There's a way to do that without
threatening people or yelling at people, harassing people. And it's
funny to me the ways technology like this all started

(50:44):
as sort of an attempt to better control content searches
on Tumblr. So when they were like, you can put
in this anti whatever tag it was, they were trying
to clamp down on like bad behavior honestly, then it
led to this. So that's just interesting to me. And

(51:06):
also back to what you were saying, when it becomes
a part of your identity and then that it becomes
so personal and it just you can't see anything else
like this is it has to be this way because
so important to me. Another thing that Jamie brought up

(51:32):
was this sort of forcing of romance or this prioritizing
of romance. And I talked about this recently because yes,
I have been posting fan fiction and never but there

(51:53):
is this I found myself writing romance and I actually
it's like released romance which I think makes sense. It's
much more like holding hands type of romance and anything else.
But but I did get in my head about like
it just feels so much of what I read that romance,

(52:14):
romantic love is seen as more powerful love, like the
most powerful love, as compared to friendship. And so it
can be strange when you're reading all this stuff like that,
you're writing stuff like that, and you're asexual, you know,
Like I have found, especially within the past couple of years,

(52:40):
a lot more depictions of asexual characters and even asexual
romances where you know, they have the talk and they're like, yeah,
I just like kissing but nothing more, and they're like, okay, cool.
And I have seen more non sexual relationships, but a
lot of times that's what it is, like a good
amount of times, like maybe not the whole thing, but

(53:02):
it's in there somewhere. And as we've discussed before, there's
also that strange tight rope of for so long women
have been shamed for wanting sex, and so I'm like,
embrace it, embrace it, but also at the same time,
it doesn't have to be that for everybody. So it's
sort of strange there. And I've also been thinking about

(53:25):
this too, of this understanding that everyone sees romance the
same way or they must all want it, which isn't true.
And I think that comes up a lot of times
in shipping wars, because if you're finding like your evidence,
not everybody sees that evidence the same way, you know
what I mean, Like even if like you don't agree, right,
but like some people might see something as romantic and

(53:47):
other people might see it's like not romantic at all. Yeah,
So there's that difference too. And I do think this
is tricky because I've heard before this argument why can't
they just be friends, especially between two men who have
just a close relationship, Why does it have to be romantic?
And I think that it speaks to a couple of things.
The fact that we put men in a box where

(54:09):
they can't be emotionally vulnerable with other men are physically affectionate,
so that's like, look at how they're being so emotionally vulnerable,
they must be in love. And the fact that women
are always through romantic interest in so much of media,
And the fact that we don't have enough queer storylines
in mainstream media, especially front center. So it's sort of like,

(54:31):
as we say so often we just need more representative,
diverse stories, so we're not always like it's so desperate
for this queer story, though, can't it be them? But
also have platonic relationships. And then there's been arguments about
fetishizing homosexuality in that way too, which is certainly certainly

(54:57):
a part of it. This is sort of a separate issue,
but I wanted to mention it. When the media reports
on this, especially fan fiction, they find the most bizarre
fan fiction. I'm almost always like, I think you might
actually read fan fiction because you have plumbed the depths,
you've found something, You've found something. And I read a

(55:19):
lot and I have never seen this and either make
fun of it for celebrities to read it, or frame
it as this depravity of young girls and make an
argument about why we need to censor things. So that
a lot of times with shipping wars and gets in
the news and they're reading fan fiction and it's like

(55:41):
the wildest thing I've ever heard, and I've read some stuff.
Oh and this was about a specific incident where it

(56:02):
was at a convention and a fan that is a
supernatural convention. I think a fan got up to ask
about I don't know, but everyone thought they were going
to ask about shipping. No, it wasn't that. They later
found this fan and it wasn't that, But that's what
everyone thought, and they got removed by security.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
Even before they could ask the question. Wow.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Yes, And so here's the quote from hyperbole about that.
What is so horrible about slash shipping and asking the
actors about it? Why should asking Aqules about whether Dean
might possibly have feelings for Castiel be more taboo than
asking him about Dean slash Lisa, whether he thinks Dean
should die at the end of the series, or what
his favorite moment filming season eight was. For those who
claim that they've been asked about slash shipping a million

(56:49):
times and that it just makes everyone uncomfortable, this might
be the case, sure, but these guys do like twenty
conventions a year. Do you really think that there's one
single question which you could pop sssibly asked them which
they haven't had to answer at least a dozen times before.
The difference seems to be that some fans believe it
is harassment to force the actors to confront the possibility

(57:10):
that their characters might be homosexual. So singling out slash
shipping or shipping in general, when there is so much
more that might be awkward for the actors to be
confronted with. That is problematic whether you're an actor, a creator,
or a fan. I have to question the logic that
slash shipping is cool as long as we don't talk
about it, don't ask, don't tell really fandom, which was

(57:31):
a good point. I do hate going to these like
Q and A things because it's always like, what are
they going to ask? But it's true they've heard these
questions like a million times, all of them haven't. It's
not like an original question. I went and saw one
actor once and he just was like, I'm not going
to do the Q and A because I hear the
same questions all the time. And he just went down

(57:51):
a list of questions and answer. I was like, yeah,
probably you would know. Yeah. And then from Vox, here's
a quote conflating ships that involve underrepresentative identities with the
desire for inclusion. Gets especially dicey when it leads fans
to prioritize support for their ship over other intersexual concerns.

(58:14):
For example, and teen Will fandom fans of the Steric
ship Derek slash styles have frequently accused the show of
queer baiting or exploiting their specific queer male pairing without
any intention of following through on it, even though the
show's creator, Jeff Davis, is a gay man who has
already inserted several queer relationships in the show storylines, and
even though Steric as it currently exists in canon is

(58:37):
a physically abusive relationship. The prioritization of a ship at
the expense of another intersectionality concerns is also present on
The one hundred, which earlier this year featured a queer
canonical relationship between main character Clark and the warrior queen
Lexa aka Klexa. Klexa fans have been so focused on
advocating for Klexa, even after the ship effectively ended with

(58:59):
Lexus on time death, that they've come under fire for
ignoring the many elements of the show that some feels
are racist and problematic. M Yeah, I think that's a
that's a really good point as well, because when you
when you're just attacking people who don't like your ship
and you're not thinking of anything else, it's not a

(59:21):
good look. It's not a good look. Yeah. Yeah, as
sort of wrap up here, I did mention I was
gonna say my thoughts. So I I do ship, even
though I am an ace ace person, but a lot
of times I ship. I found a really fun article
about the fun of shipping No One, someone who's never

(59:43):
gonna end up together. It's kind of nice. You're kind
of like you find your little niche pandom of all
of your your like online friends we will never meet
or talk to, but you're kind of like we're the
ones that, like the ship that we know is never
going to be cannon. We never once thought it would be.
It's just no chance of it. And I think there

(01:00:06):
has been a couple of things I've shipped where people
have gotten upset and they're like, I can't believe I
thought they would end up together. And sometimes I'm honestly
so surprised. I'm like, you really, I never actually thought
this was gonna happen, but you did. Eh, And I
get I feel bad. It does suck when you're like, oh,
that didn't go how I wanted it to go. But also,

(01:00:29):
as we've been talking about, sometimes fans do regret when
their ship happens, like with Buffy and Spike and you know,
like a tempted rape that happened in their relationship. And
sometimes the ship happens and they break up or they're
killed off. Like it's not like if your ship does
become cannon, everything's going to be the best thing and

(01:00:52):
the happiest thing. And I think, like going back to
like not trusting the creators. I just have been hurt
so hard. It's not that I don't trust them, but
I'm like, yeo, I'm gonna be much happier if i
just do this in my own world and does it
become right. I don't need your drama and your studios influencingness.

(01:01:12):
I just will go over here and be let me.
And sometimes it's not about that either. It's about what
fans believe they should have gotten. Canon romances are often
looked down upon, and there are people who feel like

(01:01:34):
me and maybe want a ship to happen, but ultimately
don't want that entertainment in question to really change. So
like you don't want it to become a rom com suddenly,
but you kind of don't want the relationship to happen,
but you have fun imagining it and sharing it with others,
and yes, it can be lonely to ship someone barely
anyone else does, but it can be very fun. Can

(01:01:57):
be very fun. Here's another quote for teen Vogue. Shipping
oriented fandom is all about transformation. For many shippers. The
pairings we put together in fandom are that come together
in a series or on a gossip site are the
first time many of us get to see ourselves and
relationships that echo the ones we have. Whether it's a
queer ships as a gateway to understanding your own identity,

(01:02:19):
or fans of color or highlighting ships that center characters
of color. The goal of shipping has been to fill
gaps and provide room for fans to play with emotional
connections from box. For fans feeling fatigue over an imbattle
struggle to make a ship cannon, and the crushing disappointment
of setbacks or failure, it might help to remember that
ships don't have to be cannon in order to be

(01:02:39):
transformative and meaningful on both a personal and cultural level.
Look at Star Trek's Kirk slash Spock Sperk. That ship
never became canon, but it remains one of the most
compelling ships ever created, and within cannon, it gave us
one of pop culture's most enduring symbols of love, there
are hands touching through the glass. Henry Jenkin's famously said

(01:03:01):
that queer fan fiction is what happens when you take
away the glass. And sure, it's increasingly possible that savvy
creators might go ahead and take away the glass for us,
but that doesn't negate the power of fans being able
to do it on their own without anyone's help. I
love that. It's so funny, it's so true. That's it.
Do you look for the clues their hands touching to

(01:03:22):
the glass, and then you take away the glass?

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Oh, I feel like you having a moment here.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
I am, I am. And then to close out, I
have this thing I found from more Stand on Tumblr.
And this is a while back. I found like all
of this old archive like Fanish stuff, like nineteen ninety three.
I was researching this. Very cool. I don't know when
it happened, but somewhere along the way, shipping got a

(01:03:52):
new meaning for younger folk that seems to translate to
I want these people together for real asap. I think
the media had something to do with it, guys. Shipping
absolutely does not mean demanding anything from people slash creators.
Shipping isn't about expecting and waiting for the day it
will certainly happen. It is not a direct translation to
happen or die. Shipping means you like the idea of

(01:04:14):
two or more people together. You like the concepts, You
find it fun to imagine the dynamics, You even create
fan and content of it, thick art edits. It's all
on your head and it's fine that way. Is it
nice to have a ship become cannon? Oh my god, Yes,
but that's not what shipping is about. And y'all need
to take a step back and breathe, because being a
jerk to people ain't gonna change their mind about ships. Yep, yeah,

(01:04:41):
but yeah, I just want to say, two people, and
you know who you are, uh, who've watched good omens
and you're happy. I'm happy for you. Vague I told
you I didn't spoilet, But okay, yes, I mean, like

(01:05:02):
all things we talk about, there's obviously really bad behavior,
but there's really good behavior too, and a lot of
it is that and it can be so fun and
so beautiful and I love that too. Of like the
idea just because it doesn't become canon doesn't mean it
can't be transformative. So yes, our shipping episode.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Like towards and you just went going faster and faster
trying to make it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Yeah. Yeah. I also will say I wrote an essay
about this for Jamie that you can find about my
thoughts about shipping. But that's what I have to say
for now. So thank you Jamie for this suggestion. And yeah,
if you would like to contact us, if you have

(01:05:52):
any thoughts about this, I'm sure that you do. You
can email us stephanium Mom Stuff at ihartmedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at most up podcast,
or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff One Never told you.
We have a tea public store. We also have a
book that you can order. It is available at stuff
you should read books dot com. Thanks as always to
your super producer Christina or executive producer Maya and our

(01:06:15):
contributor Joey.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
I was gonna say talking about shit, but it wasn't
gonna be right, So thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
And thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
Me his production of by Heart Radio. For more podcasts
from My Heart Radio, you can check out the art
radio app Apple Podcasts or regulus to your favorite shows,