October 3, 2026 • 52 mins
Oh she's sweet but a psycho? The 'crazy psycho bitch girl' is a trope that makes up an entire genre of horror movies. In this classic, Anney and Samantha wade through the history and examples of this trope, and why it's problematic.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And Samantha.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
And welcome to Stuff Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio.
And today we have another classic kind.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Of Halloween-type episode that we did on the crazy psycho
bitch girl. Mm-mm-mm. Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Which I do think we should come back and revisit
because I feel like there's been sort of a shift
on depictions of a character like this. Maybe people citing
more would be like, I see where they're coming from.
Not in the older examples, but in newer examples. And
(00:55):
I just think it's really interesting that this has inspired...
Just a whole genre of horror movies and TV shows
and what have you. And as we talk about in there,
the history of why that is and dismissing women and
calling them crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I think it's really interesting. Please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,
this is Annie.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And Samantha.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
And welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You, a production
of iHeartRadio. I'm going to mix things up today.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
All right, all right. And I'm not going to ask
a question.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
No.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Or I could, but it would be a very, we
would be having to act because we actually already discussed
this in depth.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
But we recently learned, Samantha and I, Both lovers of
horror movies. We love very different types of horror movies.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
It's true. It's true.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
So today we're talking about a specific genre. Would you say,
what is your favorite genre of horror movie? So I
guess it is a question after all.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So I think my favorite, and I've told you this,
I do love haunting movies and possession movies. So things
like Insidious is up in my likes and one of
my favorite ones, I guess. I like... See, I just
recently watched Paranormal Activity. Those are newer to me. Those
are newer to me. I love those. I watched the
(02:29):
trilogy and I did not realize they were all interconnected
because I think I watched one of the really newer
ones that aren't.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, there's like 15. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
So.
I like those. I do like the pop scares and
I'm like, oh, things are happening. What's happening? Kind of unknown.
But it's also kind of silly to me. So I
do love like the Insidious. I do like when John
Woo's stuff typically, except he also expands to like 10,000
different movies. But I don't love slasher movies. That's probably
(02:56):
one of my least favorites. And I do love the
psychological thrillers like The Strangers. That stuff freaks me out,
but I do love it. What about you?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Yeah. I definitely, I love supernatural horror movies. And I love,
I mean, my favorite horror movie of all time is
The Exorcist, which I find interesting because I'm not religious
at all. But I think those tropes, like we can
all connect with those things. And then I do like
found footage. And I actually have a list. I made
(03:28):
a list during quarantine of when people ask me like,
what movie should I watch? And I have This list
I've just been sending out, and there's a section on horror,
and I was looking through it, and I apparently also
like just weird, like really strange, like time travel horror movies.
I like trying to figure out the puzzle of like, ooh, well, oh,
(03:48):
how did this happen?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
And when did this happen?
Speaker 4 (03:50):
And it might not even make sense, and I just
like it. Yeah, I like a strange time travel horror
movie or just something really visually interesting that I haven't seen.
But what we're talking about today, I haven't seen a
lot of what you have, Samantha, when it comes to
psychological thrillers or what we're talking about today, which is
(04:15):
a whole trope that I didn't even know existed. I
certainly realized it was a thing. I just didn't know
it had a name to it.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Right. I think when I discovered the name, I sent
you a text and you were like, oh, God. We
both were like, this is the name of the trope.
Knowing that it existed, but we didn't know what the
title was.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Right. Right. So yeah, to keep up with our love
of Halloween in this month of October, we wanted to
talk about the horror movie trope of Halloween.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Psycho bitch girl.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Psycho bitch girl, crazy bitch girl, crazy woman, like any
of those.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But specifically, psycho bitch girl. And trigger warning, this is
definitely just a look at the trope and the stereotypes.
And a lot of the conversation is going to be
around dated movies that have not aged well. So we'll
go ahead and put that as a big caveat. A
lot of those, if you look back on, you're like,
holy crap, what were they thinking?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We will mention, but don't get into it too much,
about assault, death, and mental health issues. So I know
you and I actually talked about that fact that possibly
you don't watch any of these because it is heavily
reliant on those types of tropes and those types of stereotypes.
And it can be triggering for a lot of people. Especially,
I know when we talked about, and we'll talk a
(05:32):
little more about revenge films, it has to have some
kind of big traumatic beginning in order to push the
story forward. So it kind of does that same thing.
And it's, yeah, it gets in there. So we're going
to talk a little bit about those movies, just a
heads up.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Yeah, and also just a heads up, like, as the
trope's name should tell you, a lot of this is
offensive in multiple ways. Right, right.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, but we're definitely going to talk about that more.
But I want to go ahead and say it right
at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Don't get mad at us for the title. We're not
saying we approve of it. It's just, it is what
it is.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
No, no.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It was.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
It was, you would say.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
As I say, so.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
If we look at movies like Fatal Attraction, Gone Girl,
or The Audition, there is a perpetual idea that women,
especially exes, are crazy, of course. And again, like we know,
I know it's not PC to use that word, but
this is like the trope. And yeah, so yeah, I
broke up with her because they are crazy, that sort
(06:28):
of idea.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Yeah, we see this all the time and it's upsetting
how accepted it is.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Like, it's okay to say that.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Still today. People use that today and everybody's just kind
of like, really?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
It's 2020.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Stop it.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
And it is very difficult to talk about the horror
genre without talking about thriller, psychological genre, or erotic thriller,
which does include like Stalker Girl, overzealous fangirls, and even
overly obsessive mothers.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So, yeah, just brace yourself. All of that's coming.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
And we did, hey, I'm holding to some of our
older traditions, want to define what some say is, psycho
bitch girl means. And according to one Urban Dictionary definition,
it is a woman who's hormal. It's not a typo.
I'm not mispronouncing it. Apparently, this means normal for whore behaviors. Again,
according to Urban Dictionary. Yeah, I was like, what? And
(07:29):
this is an imbalanced, troublesome upbringing or a current brain
chemistry renders her irrational, angry, and prone to acts of violence.
For example, this dude, I'm going to say this dude
because the way they wrote it was very specific. In
this example of like throwing my $ 3, 400 widescreen HDTV through
the window. I don't know why that was the example,
(07:53):
but apparently that is the example of psycho bitch girl.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
And when I was thinking about this, I keep thinking about...
And we're going to talk about this, but like how
a lot of times these movies... don't get me wrong,
the woman in them is doing violent things or whatever,
but the man still has usually done something pretty badly
as well. But, you know, it's, oh, she threw my
(08:24):
TV out the window because she found out I actually
have a wife.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And I've been lying to her or whatever.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
You know, we sort of forget that part. And also,
and I want to revisit this maybe towards the end,
I would just keep in mind as we're talking about these,
like imagine the roles are flipped or imagine, Like, man
is the stalker. I feel like that has such a
different vibe. It's much more threatening in a physical way,
(08:52):
as opposed to, I feel like, with a lot of
these we're talking about today with women, it's much more
threatening in a sexual, she's imbalanced, in quotes, way.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And if you actually look at, and we will look
at it deeper, a majority of these psycho bitch tropes,
the anger is pointed to another woman.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Which could be, again, a whole other thing.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I was trying to remember... I was trying to remember
the Beyonce one. Wasn't she in one?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Obsession. Yes, with Ali Lama.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
We don't talk about that movie, but that definitely came
up as an example as well.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
So I would just keep all those things in mind
as we go over some of these examples.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
All right, so the first movie we wanted to talk about,
we mentioned above, is Fatal Attraction. I feel like this
is the iconic standard when it comes to erotic thrillers
and psycho bitch trope, which, by the way, every single
article mentions Fatal Attraction that I looked at.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Probably, again, one of the best-known movies for this. In
this 1987 film, we have main character Dan Gallagher, played
by Michael Douglas, who was in several of these types
of movies, by the way, who has an illicit affair
with Alex Forrester, played by Glenn Close. So if you're
like Annie and haven't seen this film, a quick rundown.
(10:05):
They have an affair. He pretty much drops her. She
starts doing things like stalking, faking a pregnancy, boiling a rabbit, kidnapping,
and trying to kill the wife because all that she
wants is to have a baby with Dan. And of course,
the family. Cue ace of bass music, which Annie also
doesn't know.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Nope.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I sang this to her not too long ago. I
was like, you've never heard this movie? I mean, this song?
You've never heard this song? That was very sad. So,
after trying to kill the wife, she gets shot by
the wife and everything is hunky-dory. Though, according to reports
and interviews with Glenn Close, the original intent was to
show the callousness of Dan's dismissal of his mistress and
(10:44):
the breakdown of Alex's life in psychopathy, but it later
was dwindled down to showing how, quote, crazy and over-the-top
Alex was and made Dan more of the victim.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
Yeah, and I Yeah, I haven't seen this movie. I
didn't know that his wife killed him. And you're right,
that is a very... He didn't even take responsibility, in
heavy quotes.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, even their whole time together, at the very beginning,
the premise of the movie is that he understands it
as a one-night stand. She obviously understands it as a
one-night stand, but she refused to let it go.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Oh, oh, oh.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
That always annoys me when it's like, It can't be
that you miscommunicated or whatever.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
You didn't know my intention. But like Tim might change
her mind and now she wants kids. Oh my God,
I've got to get out of here.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
This is a crazy bitch. All I want to do
is sleep with you and leave you. I don't understand.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah, throwing around that crazy bitch as just to dismiss
that a woman could have legitimate emotions or change her
mind or want something that you don't want and maybe misrepresented.
All that to say, I don't think Glenn Close.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I haven't seen this movie. I'm not justifying her actions.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I'm just saying it's interesting the way that comes up
a lot in non-murderous situations. Right, right.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So, back to another... We've.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Been talking about Stephen King a lot lately.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
He's got a lot of things. Hmm.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
So, Misery.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
We're talking about Misery, which I've never seen, but I
have read the book. And this is, yeah, a Stephen
King classic. Apparently, Stephen King proclaimed it to be one
of his favorite adaptions of his books for film. And
right now, it's the only one to win an Oscar,
thanks to the incredible performance by Kathy Bates. So, for
(12:31):
a quick rundown of this one, we have romance author
Paul Sheldon, played by James Caan, and Annie Wilkes.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Played by Kathy Bates, a seemingly kind nurse.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Who finds Paul after a car accident in which he
has broken his legs and dislocated his shoulders. She brings
him to her home under the guise that she is
a good Samaritan. She's going to nurse him back to health.
She then proceeds to let him know that she is his, quote,
number one fan. And due to her kindness, he allows
her to read the newest manuscript for his popular series
(13:04):
based on his character, Misery Chastain. Unfortunately, though, for him,
she hates the ending, and all this bad stuff ensues.
And I know I've said this before, but I feel
like every Stephen King book is about Stephen King in
one way or another. This is a fear that he has.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Well, he said that when he wrote this, he got
the inspiration when he fell asleep on the plane. I
think he had been met by someone about how much
they liked the book or something, and he fell asleep
on the plane, and this is his dream of what
could have happened. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Oh, wow. Well, lucky for him, it didn't because apparently,
you know, Annie and Kathy Bates' character demands a new
book in which he brings misery back to life.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
This is what fan fiction is for. You can do
it yourself.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
But anyway, we see the overall levels she's willing to
go to save her favorite character. Everything from drugging him,
breaking his ankles, killing a police officer. After complying and
writing a new book, he tricks her into a celebration
where a violent struggle occurs and he bashes her head
in and makes an escape. This movie does show a
(14:12):
little struggle of the overall trauma he has gone through
with the post-scene of him being triggered. So that does
add a bit of depth to his character.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, I thought it was really interesting. I'm like, he
wanted to put this... again, kind of like himself about, oh,
you know, these are the traumas that these people, when
they do this, when they go beyond this, when they
demand this. And it could be this whole story of
ownership once you give to the audience who now owns
this book or who now owns this content. And that's
a whole other conversation we've had. But yes, of course,
(14:44):
this homely, sweet nurse ends up losing it and has
to die for it in the end.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Well, that's interesting, too, because I was imagining if it
was a female writer, a woman writer, writer and a
man tormentor, it just becomes, it's less about breaking gender norms,
which is troubling in itself. Because it's still scary and
it's still bad, but it doesn't feel as weird. And
(15:11):
that's part of the reason authors do this intentionally, I
would imagine, a lot of the time, is you don't
suspect that an older woman will do this, a kind
nursewoman will. Which, yeah, is kind of troubling that I
guess we've sort of held up.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Our hands and said, yeah, men can be aggressive.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah. And that's not so out of the norm of reality.
But for women, they're crazy.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They're crazy bitches. And please know I keep saying this,
but it's the whole again.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
It's a trope, yes.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
And we are going to talk about parts of that
for sure.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
And another movie, which I actually forgot about until I
started researching this, is The Hand That Rocks the Cradle,
which was released in 1992 and plays on so many
tropes and had a lot of mixed reviews. In one article,
the critic stated this movie was a movie that asked
the audience, quote, not to think but to react, which
(16:06):
the critic said was difficult even for the current time frame.
in the 90s. So the plot, it all begins with
the main character, Claire Bartell, who was pregnant with her
second child, going to a new obstetrician where she's molested
by the doctor, Dr. Mott. After she reports him to
the police, several other women come forward alleging the same
type of abuse. He then shoots himself rather than getting arrested,
(16:27):
leaving behind his wife, Mrs. Mott, played by Rebecca De Mornay.
who was pregnant at the time. After losing everything due
to the incident, Mrs. Moth loses the baby as well.
She then proceeds to plan her revenge against the main accuser,
Claire Bartell. At this point, she gets hired by Claire
as a nanny under a pseudonym, of course. in which
(16:51):
she then tries to ruin Claire's family and her life
by manipulating the older daughter and turning her against her family,
breastfeeding the newborn, causing it to imprint, is that how
they said it, on her, and trying to seduce the husband,
which doesn't work because, you know, he's a great guy.
And then by killing her best friend, who, by the way,
is Julianna Moore. Yeah, I was like, oh, I didn't
realize she was in this movie because she was figuring
(17:13):
it out. So if you haven't already guessed it, yes, dear, Mrs.
Mott gets killed accidentally by the wife who figures everything out.
And that's the end of that. And that's the end
of the movie. And then the family lives happily ever after.
So it just has this whole level of victim blaming,
sexual assault, this whole fear of losing babies and having
(17:36):
babies and taking families. It's got a lot in there.
And you kind of like sit there. It's been a
very long time since I've seen it. But they have
this whole like plague of like, these are the things
you should be afraid of. And this is what happens
in motherhood and lots of things. And you need to
be careful what you say. It's a very weird kind
of mixed ideas. And like I said, There was a
(18:00):
lot of mixed reviews of like.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Is this a good movie?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Is this a bad movie? What's happening? But Rebecca De
Mornay's performance was actually amazing and very frightening. So she
did a good job on that one.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, I haven't seen that, but intriguing.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I haven't, okay, we're about to talk about what I
haven't seen, but I feel like I've seen, and that
is single white female.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I think everybody feels that way.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Yes. So this one is a bit of a flip
because it's more of an erotic thriller with homoerotic overtones.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So we have Hedy. I'm going to go with Hedy.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Played by Jennifer Jason Leigh and Allie played by Bridget Fonda.
And yes, there are a lot of pop cultural references
made in regards to this 1992 film. So it's definitely
worth talking about. Here we see a different take as
where it's not just a look at the fears women
have and the harringtales of marital transgression, but a possible
(18:54):
cautionary tale of female independence, as well as sisterhood, or
as one article says, also a story that has a
lesbian-phobic layer. And I would definitely, definitely agree with that,
even not having seen it. I've seen clips of it.
And I remember when I was in college, I was
telling Samantha, like, I just have this really funny story
(19:15):
where my, one of my best friends, because this was
my first year of college, right?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And you're making a bunch of new friends.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
And it so happened that she ended up in a
dorm where she, I was best friends with like all
of her roommates and I ended up in a dorm
where she was best friend of.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
All, all my roommates. And there was just sort of
this tension.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
There was this weird thing there because we both understood it,
but we never really talked about it. And when we
used to joke about like, don't single white female, don't try.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
To replace me. But okay, back to the movie.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Here, we see a very traumatized woman Hedy whose twin
sister drowned at the age of nine coming into Ali's
life who after finding out her fiance had cheated on
her and then being professionally and sexually taken advantage of
by a rich man needed to find a new roommate
and Single white female. Enter Hedy, who slowly changes her
(20:10):
physical appearance to mimic Allie's, as well as impersonating her
at different locations and overall trying to become her. We
quickly see things unravel, and Hedy is trying to control
and manipulate Allie by hiding things from her, as well
as impersonating her. which eventually leads to Hedy killing several
people and trying to get Allie to take her own
(20:32):
life as well. The boyfriend's death scene includes a stiletto. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
This is kind of... I remember because it became an
iconic thing where people were like, oh, my God, how
do you kill someone with that? Yeah, she used a
stiletto to kill the boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Of course.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
If you're going to wear stilettos, then always make it
a weapon. After the death of Hedy, we see a
little more with Allie sympathizing with Hedy and stating that
part of Hedy, whose real name we find out is Ellen,
of her issues, that she had survivor's guilt from the
death of her twin.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Which caused that type of trauma.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Right. And the more we talked, like the more I
researched it, the more I looked at it, yeah, there
was this whole overall, this is why this movie is
very problematic. They love gay men, but really were afraid
of lesbians and here are these things. And it does
have this whole thing. And we're going to talk about
that a little deeper, the sexualization within these movies. But
it's interesting to get really into like, yeah, what is
(21:29):
wrong with people?
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, during this time period, I feel like there was
a lot, and this still happens for sure, but I
feel like there was a glut of, like, lesbian-phobic, biphobic messaging, or,
I mean, it's still phobic, but, like, I can turn her, like, there's, like,
chasing Amy type things.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, but definitely, and it was a comedy as well
as horror. So it's one or the other that is
made fun of or being afraid of. And we're going
to talk about that a little more, but it is
interesting to note this is one of those movies that
they talk about. And then another movie, which I don't
think I've ever actually watched. I just remember hearing a
lot of it. Oh, you've actually seen this one, which
(22:08):
is Gone Girl. It's not necessarily a horror, but it
is a psychological thriller and trying to like piece together
what's happening. But again, I didn't want to mention it
because this also reversed the trope a little bit from
wife being the victim to wife being the mastermind and
being the psycho bitch character instead of the innocent that's
just walking and watching it or being victimized by the
(22:29):
psycho bitch. For the plot, we see the picture-perfect couple,
which comes crumbling down as Amy, played by Rosamund Pike,
appears missing and a case is opened due to her
disappearance and possible death. All the while, Nick, played by
Ben Affleck, is trying to prove his innocence as evidence
starts to mount against him and he's suspected of foul play. Here,
(22:49):
we see things unravel from flashbacks of the relationship to
his eventual cheating, of course. And then we are clued
in as Nick tries to get answers that Amy has
been plotting against him in order to punish him for
his misdeeds, including framing him for her own murder and
accusing him of assault and abuse. It eventually falls apart
and she returns home blaming an ex-boyfriend for all of
(23:12):
the events. Also, they remain together as she has artificially
inseminated herself with Nick's sperm and is now pregnant with
his baby. And they remain together unhappily ever after.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Well, it is interesting because she, yeah, she goes from, oh,
she's the victim and we're trying to figure out this
mystery to, no, she did it because he was a
terrible husband, essentially.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
But it does show, it's one of the few examples
on here, I think, where it's like, you don't ever, they're.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Both almost equally guilty.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
I know some people would be mad at me for
saying that because clearly she did kill somebody. But I
mean that in terms of how the viewer is like,
it's not like they're like, look, Nick is so perfect
and she's clearly crazy. And then in the end, he's
sort of complicit. It's hard to describe, I guess. But
(24:10):
this also, this movie is one of the funniest meetings
I've ever had in my life was when this just
came out and we were talking about... Because, you know,
it was like, you can see Ben Affleck's penis if
you pause.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It at the right spot.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And we were talking.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
About this and one of our co-workers, Matt, who some
of you might know from other podcasts we do, but
is like the sweetest, literal sweetest person I know... He
was looking around at us kind of confusedly. And then
he said, wait, are we talking about his dong right now?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Oh, Matt.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Like, yep. Oh, it was so funny. And then we
had somebody on the phone and he was like, everybody
shut up. And he was like, hey, hey, Tyler on
the phone. They're talking about Ben Affleck's dong.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Wonderful. But anyway, so.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Here in this example, we see the psycho bitch trope
being used as a payback revenge con that makes the
adulterer pay not by the jilted lover, but by the
angry wife. There is a lot of debate of whether
or not this character is another stereotype of an angry
bitch who lies about being assaulted and manipulative, and the
poor husband is the victim once again. This also comes up.
(25:25):
This was one of the first times I heard cool girl. Yes.
Because she has a whole monologue about being the cool girl.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
It does seem to be portrayed differently in the book.
I read the book, but I can't recall. But anyway,
in which you see the male character being a lot
more misogynistic than in the movie, I do think I.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Did like him better in the movie. But anyway.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
But her overall callousness and evil does seem to ask
for sympathy for the.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Poor fool.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
You're calling my word dope?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Dope. Don't call me husband. So, go ahead. Portrayed by
Ben Affleck.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
I mean, he does seem to have that clueless face.
I do remember seeing the scenes, and he just has
a clueless face the entirety of the movie.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
So.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
That's pretty much... Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (26:13):
His whole role in that is just looking confused and
realizing he's screwed.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And yes, there are so many other examples, especially in
the 90s. Maybe that's why I know so much about them.
This is my era. And because it's just such a
big theme at that point, which includes Basic Instinct, which
has that big seduction scene we know of with Sharon
Stone and Michael Douglas. And of course, the icicles. So
I don't know if you've... Well, that's how she murdered people. Oh.
(26:42):
It was an ice pick. I think it was an
ice pick. I think I got that one wrong. I
was like, icicle would have been so much smarter. It
just melts away. I'm trying to remember.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Y'all, listeners, tell me. I know I can look this up,
but I'd rather you tell me if you actually saw
this movie. I can't quite remember. Either it's the ice
pick or an icicle. And then The Crush, which is
a movie about a teenage crush going wrong with Alicia
Silverstone and Carrie Elwes. Someone had actually written a whole
article about it and how much they loved her character
just because they were talking about how, as a 14-year-old,
(27:12):
how much do you have to love and how much
confidence do you have in yourself that you would just
go after.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
People like that?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And I was like, Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But kind of a turn. And man, just seems women
wanting sex makes them crazy. That seems like that's the
theme here. If women want sex or if women have sex,
it makes them crazy.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
According to all these movies. And of course, we're going
to talk a little more about that. But yeah, definitely
is this theme that goes throughout.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And speaking of themes, we are not done with this.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Oh, no.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
But first, we have a quick break for a word
from our sponsor. And we're back. Thank you, sponsor.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
So yeah, while we were researching, we did find a
few honorable mentions, I guess. Not necessarily the main characters
who were seen as the psychopathic girl or girlfriend. So
we wanted to go over a handful of those. Right.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And honestly, this one shocked me and I wanted to
talk about it with you a little bit. But in
Harry Potter, they actually named Bellatrix. Yes, you could consider
definitely a psychopathic evil. But because it's fantasy... you know,
like children's fantasy on top of that. I didn't see
that as much. It's not what you typically think. Also,
she wasn't anybody's partner necessarily. Like she was a doting
(28:40):
like servant more so than anything else.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
What do you think? Well, I'm assuming that this all
comes from the Cursed Child.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Oh, is that what it is?
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Spoiler alerts. Anybody who doesn't want to know. Yeah, she
is with Voldemort in Cursed Child. And she's like... so
desperate to be with him and to serve him and
give him whatever he wants, that she sires his child.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
So that he can have an heir. Even though I
was like, but doesn't he think he's never going to die?
I thought he was dead. He is.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
There's flashbacks. There's like a whole time travel thing in this.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
All right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
So that would make a lot more sense because I
was like, what? They did such a great job in
the movies and the books before. Yes, I'm very sad
about talking about this. So put a little, you know,
asterisk on this one.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
This has been tainted for me. But that to put
them in such a, not like, it's not, sexual yeah
that I didn't think of it that way I guess.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Yeah I mean there's certainly and I might be ruined
by all of my reading of fan fiction but if
all of my reading of fan fiction is correct and
you all know I don't look for romance a lot
of people did interpret her relationship as borderline at least
borderline I guess it's almost like worshiping someone so much
(30:05):
that if he had said we're together, she would have
been like, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I feel like anybody would have said that. Like anybody
who serves him, they would never have said no. Like
if it was a man, woman, whomever.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
But she would have been proud of it. She would
have been honored.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
She doesn't want to be chosen by him and does
stick to him. And I do remember the scene where,
you know, Molly calls him, calls her a bitch. So
fair enough. And then another mention is Wedding Crashers, Amy
Fisher's character, who is more of the comedic take and
to me seems to fit into the pixie manic girl,
but definitely does fit the whole, what is it, guy
(30:43):
getting in trouble genre movies where they have to have
that one girl who's stalking them, you know, and oh
my God, look at this crazy girl. So yeah, she
definitely was one of the big mentions.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Well, that's an interesting aspect of it too is When
you talk about something like that, which is more comedic,
the idea that there's almost an air of, I am
so attractive or I'm so worth having that, of course.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I have almost groupies.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
That you've got to have one following you around. And
it's funny. Like, it's a marker of, I don't know,
being a virile, attractive man. Yes. The women can't resist you.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Right. Yeah. And then there's Girl Interrupted, Angelina Jolie. Oh,
I read that book, but it was a long time ago.
I did a project on it in high school. Oh, wow. Yeah.
And this whole thing, and we're going to come back
and talk about this a little bit more, I know,
but you can debate it was trivializing or romanticizing mental
(31:45):
health needs.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
And I think that's one of the reasons I chose it.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
When you're in that sort of melancholy.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Poetic, or I'm not going to say everyone goes through
this stage, but a lot of people do when you're
in high school and you're kind of being all sad.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Right.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
And that this, I thought, was like, oh, look how
beautiful sadness can be, which I know is very problematic.
And I've grown listeners.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, but that's the thing. It's what gets fed to
us and believing what this is.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Right, right. But yes, definitely Angelina Jolie's character I could
see fitting that trope.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
And then Friday the 13th, which, spoiler alert, the mom
is actually the serial killer in this one. And I
knew this before I even saw Friday the 13th because
it's the question that trips up Drew Barrymore in Scream
when the.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Serial killer was asking her, like, who's the killer?
Speaker 4 (32:43):
And she got the answer wrong because everyone assumes it's Jason.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Right. Because the rest of the series it is.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
But it's actually Jason's mom who wants revenge for these
camp counselors who were having sex and not watching her child.
And he drowned in Crystal Lake, which, by the way,
is in Portal to Hell. And the FBI comes in
and sends Jason to space because obviously... What? I've seen
all of these now.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, I think you're not talking about this.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
But anyway, this is also kind of a play on the...
always blame the mother trope because.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
She turned out to be the serial killer.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Usually you're blaming the mother for this male serial killer's actions,
but in this case she actually was the serial killer.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
And actually in Scream 2.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
The, spoiler alert, the killer in that one, Billy Loomis'
mom from the first one, Billy Loomis from the first one, she,
I'm pretty sure they purposefully cast someone who looks like
the mother in Friday the 13th to kind of pay
an homage to that.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, Scream definitely likes to do tongue-in-cheek homages to other
horror movies, which is fair. Which, by the way, I
watched Urban Legend talk about homages, and the main guy
who plays Freddy is in it to teach us Urban Legends,
and I forgot that. I was like, oh, my God.
I haven't seen Urban Legends, and it's bad.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
It's really bad.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
But I watched it again last night, but I was
just like, what is this? Anyway, another comedy version of
the psycho bitch trope is My Super Ex-Girlfriend, which which
is not really a popular movie, but I just remember thinking,
what is this? And here we have Uma Thurman being
a superhero who is heartbroken and becomes vengeful. And as
(34:32):
it says in one article, becomes more neurotic as her
relationship with Luke Wilson's character ends. And this one is
supposed to be a comedy again, like I said, and
does have a flip at the end where the women
are the heroes making a difference and, you know, stopping
crime while the male partners are, you know, sitting back,
holding their purses, waiting for them to come back. So
it does have that little flip, and it's definitely tongue-in-cheek.
(34:54):
But it starts with, what if your ex-girlfriend, who you
see as crazy and clingy, which is what they describe
her as, has superpowers? And then it goes into that.
So it's like, take what you know is already a
bad trope and add a lot more power and danger
because she is so strong now. Which could be said, yeah,
(35:14):
that's what happens when we talk about men having too
much power and being a lot more stronger than you.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
That's what it looks like.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
And then we did want to mention Carrie, which we
already talked about in our episode on.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Why our period's so terrifying.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
But I wanted to add here both the mother and
daughter were on the list. We had kind of two
different quotes, two different types of, quote, psycho. You got
religious and tortured. And I suppose while we're at it,
we could mention psycho.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Right. The mom and psycho who also... Well, I guess
she's not the serial killer.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
She's not the serial killer. He has a dual personality
because of the abuse that he suffered, but it's not her.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
That's right. It's not her. I forgot about that.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
But if you want to talk about the fear of
women and sex, the main female character is running away,
I believe, because of an affair. And so she kind
of has to pay in the end for her sexuality.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Punish.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
And guilt. And then one last one we wanted to
mention and we spoke about a little bit earlier is
The Audition. And oh my God, this one haunts me.
And I blame Annie and my partner for not telling
me what kind of movie this was. But yes, it
would play on the traumatized and victimized with unresolved mental
health issues that turns someone violent and irrational. And yeah,
(36:31):
I was not expecting this. And it is a Japanese film.
It's a lot about torture. And I didn't know this.
And even the trauma was like, oh my God, why?
So I wasn't ready because I don't love slasher films.
I think I already mentioned that. I don't like torture films.
I hate it. I've never seen any of the Saw.
I've never seen Hostel. I don't like it. I think
(36:53):
it's disgusting. And nothing about this... Like, yes, people love
like the horror aspect of being like, oh my God,
what if this happens to you? I don't need to
see it. So I wasn't expecting it. So when I
came across, I was like, I think the first question
when I had met Annie a couple of years ago
was like, hey, what are your favorite horror films? Because
you know, she's a horror movie buff. Of course I
(37:13):
need to know. And she put this at the top
of her list. I was like, cool, cool, cool. I'll
watch it. She's like, yeah, yeah, you should watch it.
And I watched it. I think I started texting you.
I'm like, what the hell is wrong with you? What
have you done to me?
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Well, okay.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
To be fair to me, I don't think I bought
it up. I think your partner bought it up and
I was like, that's a really good movie. But I
hadn't seen it in so long and I totally forgot
about what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
And I rewatched it after your horrified text. I was like,
oh yeah. This is pretty messed up.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
And for me, for me watching horror movies like this,
I have to finish it or it lingers with me.
Like something about not finishing it just causes more nightmares
for me. So I had to finish it and I
was so unhappy.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
And you know, like this movie is probably one of
the ultimate examples of what we're talking about because it's
got the like, she's an ex, she's got this abuse
and then there's torture. And again, he kind of, he
played her. He totally, the main male character totally played
her and used her But she got her some revenge
(38:19):
for sure. I guess you could include the American version
of the grudge too. Right.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Because she was sort of a That's.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Kind of when we were talking about the mother or
even like the supernatural level of what's going on, of
who's blaming what and what comes out.
Speaker 4 (38:34):
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
And this is kind of what we were talking about.
You like the pre, no, I like the pre hauntings
and you like the aftermath. So these are the things
that would have happened. But the beginning part is awful.
Like seeing them, how they got murdered, how they got stalked,
how they got that. And then, but instead, like, so
it was definitely, I think that's how we kind of,
Put the line. The line, yeah. Yeah, or the metric,
(38:55):
I guess. But yeah, but for sure, this is definitely
one of those movies that plays on every single one
of the strokes. Not only do you play on the innocent,
sweet girl who he has to have because she seems
so innocent and pure, but then turns out she's not
so innocent and pure, and she wreaks havoc.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Yes. Oh, yes, she does.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Oh, yes. Okay, so we've covered a lot of ground,
but we did want to talk about some themes in
these movies. But before we do that, we're going to
pause for one more quick break for a word from
our sponsor. and we're back thank you sponsor so one
(39:41):
of the big themes in these movies is revenge yes
In almost every single one we talked about, in fact,
we see this theme of revenge. And we've talked about
women before, women in revenge films. And we've talked about
the ins and outs of revenge films and how women
are portrayed in these films. I know I've talked about before,
(40:02):
I generally don't like revenge movies, even though it seems
that I play a lot of revenge video games. And
when I write, I write a lot of revenge. So
I don't know what that's all about. But I watched
a lot of them for this research. And I have
to say, like, two or three of them haunt me.
And not in a bad way, necessarily.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
They're the ones written and directed by women.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Right. And I think that's why. It felt more true.
And in that way, more, like, painful. Like, my heart hurts.
Because when you're talking about, like, rape and revenge, there's
just this awful traumatic thing.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
And look at the outcome of it.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
But, I.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Mean, as is the case in a lot of these things,
the revenge doesn't often match the ensuing actions these women take.
One article said that if Skorner mistreated, quote, she then
ends up trying to exact revenge, becoming obsessed, sometimes even murderous.
No matter what direction a film takes, it is clear
(41:03):
the woman is meant to be seen as, in quotes, crazy.
The use of this trope has been heavily critiqued, not
only because of its portrayal of women, but how it
connects to stereotypes about mental health. It invalidates women's behavior
and real mental health struggles by simply reducing the person
to being crazy. When a woman is deemed crazy, she
is dismissible and irrelevant. And yeah, that is a really
(41:27):
big discussion within these movies.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Like, the very trope, it's right there.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
Why does over-dramatizing and stereotyping of mental health make the
plot of these films... And continue to cause damage in
open conversation of these mental health issues. And I actually
think this is a problem in horror at large because
a lot of times the twist is somebody has a
mental health issue.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Right.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
Or that's why they're doing whatever it is that they're doing,
whatever nefarious thing they're doing, which is problematic.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, we're going to talk a little more in depth
about it later at the end of this, because it's
definitely something we need to cover and have a continued conversation.
Because as much as we enjoy being scared, as much
as we see this plot as something that brings along
the movie, it is problematic. And we have to be
able to confront that. Yeah. On top of that, we
(42:15):
also wanted to talk about motherhood as a theme. And
if you couldn't tell, many of the films and characters
have some type of criticism of either being a mother,
not being a mother, or wanting to be a mother.
Specific to the movie Fatal Attraction, one article written by
Amanda Hess, she writes, when Glenn Close's 36-year-old book editor
has a one-night fling with Michael Douglas' happily married attorney,
(42:37):
Dan Gallagher, Dan expects the cool girl, which we talked
about with Gone Girl, independent Alex to remain discreet. Instead,
her biological clock goes berserk and she cuts her wrist,
incessantly calls his home, announces she's pregnant, throws acid on
his car, boils his kid's perfect bunny, abducts his perfect child,
and attempts to stab his perfect housewife. And at the
film's end, the perfect wife shoots the psycho bitch in
(42:58):
the heart by killing Alex and... in parentheses, her gestating fetus,
the film restores the sanctity of the perfect family. Or
as Susan Fowley wrote of the message in her 1991 book, Backlash,
the best single woman is a dead one. So we
see over and over again, whether we look at the
protective mothers, like comedies in Monster-in-Law, which is a Jennifer Lopez,
(43:19):
Jane Fonda movie, or grieving mothers like The Hen That
Rocks the Cradle or Friday the 13th, Or even manipulative mothers,
we see the same theme over and over again about
how this causes them to be, or the lack of,
or any of this is why they're psycho, as they
like to say it.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
Right, and existing outside of being independent and not needing
a man.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Right. And then that making you, quote, crazy. Right. Yeah,
because it's threatening the patriarchal system we all live in.
Speaker 4 (43:50):
We also wanted to talk about sex and sexiness, which
is a very broad theme that, yeah, we could talk
about pretty much in anything we talk about in media.
But we couldn't ignore the obvious trip of femme fatales
and their use of sex and sexiness to gain entry
to someone's life, into someone's life, or just as a
way of meeting. In fact, a majority of films with
(44:13):
psychopathic women seem to fall under the exotic thriller genre
as well. which allows for the movie to talk about
the horror of women having or enjoying sex without giving
too much credit or sexual identity for women. Movies like
Basic Instinct, and though we didn't talk about it earlier,
Swimfan and Jennifer's Body, which is a really wonderful movie.
I actually really like that one, continue to exploit female
(44:36):
bodies and the idea of their usefulness. And for the
world of femme fatales, Abby Bender writes, in the world
of erotic thrillers, sex is a tool and revenge is
always an option.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
And many articles have been written about the biphobic and
overall lesbian-phobic representations of the characters within this trope and genre. Again,
using basic instinct as the example, the relationship between character
Catherine and Roxy, we see the relationship through the male
gaze and is often portrayed as merely objects to, quote,
arouse the male viewer, as an article from the Bitch
(45:09):
Flicks states. The author continues and writes, though many directors...
specifically male directors, don't necessarily mean to objectify their characters. Quote,
their female characters are shown to have some charming qualities,
but in the end, they're promiscuous and manipulative and never
to be trusted.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
And this reminded me of something I totally forgot about.
So there was this thing at work back when Kristen,
past host and creator Kristen, when I did the video,
she did one, a parody of this thing called The
Crazy Hot Matrix. which many of you probably have heard
of from, I believe it was on How I Met
Your Mother. But this was a video that a man
(45:50):
made and legitimately believed that the more beautiful a woman is,
the hotter she is, the more crazy she is. And
he had this graph. And when we made the parody
of it, this was.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
The one that got me doxxed.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
People, they were so mad about it.
Speaker 4 (46:08):
And I was like, clearly we're joking, but also this
video is a real thing that exists. But the fact
that that was the one that got me, Docs, I
think is very telling when it comes to this trope
and how we do view women still as like, yeah,
you can have sex with this crazy hot woman, but
(46:28):
don't forget she's crazy and you don't want to marry her.
Because that was the point. Like you wanted to marry
a five and have sex with a ten.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Right. And all of this is offensive. I don't agree
with any of it. I hope that's clear.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Oh, yeah. This is definitely like pickup artists' charts, too.
They really saw the character Barney as being an icon
for them. So I could absolutely see you being raked
over the coals by them, for sure.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
It was wild. We had to get security guards.
Speaker 4 (46:54):
Oh, my God. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
So we did want to talk.
Speaker 4 (46:58):
About this stigma with mental health and women.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
So we've given... some examples.
Speaker 4 (47:03):
There are so many, but we've given some of the
psycho bitch trope in the horror thriller genre and how
it has slowly been changing throughout the years, but not
necessarily as fast as you might expect with the growing
feminist movements and just discussions around mental health. However, we
did want to talk about the overall ableist idea behind
the genre and usage of the term crazy and psycho bitch.
(47:27):
And though we won't go into the history of the
language because we have done that before, um, We did
want to look at the continued stigma tropes like these
perpetuate and the damage they cause.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
As one article said, In.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
It, writer Joanne Chu talks about the dangers of how
these tropes not only maintain the negative stereotypes, but continue
to negate the legitimacy of violence against women with disabilities.
She writes, When they experience violence because they are seen
as crazy or because they are not able to understand
(48:01):
or communicate what happened to them, their attackers are rarely
brought to justice. And this is a big conversation for us,
as we recently discussed in our Violence Against Women episode
on how vulnerable we make people in the disabled community
feel when we allow such ableist representation to be mainstream.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Right, and I think it was legitimately calling out the
fact that When we have these things saying it's their
fault that people no longer believe them. So they have
all of these hurdles. already just being able to say
whether they're not able to communicate with people or whether
they're not able to prove something, all of these things,
(48:42):
but to have this other part of, yeah, but what
did you do? But you're crazy. You can't even talk
about it because whatever, whatnot. And she even gave an
example of a client she had who stated that she
did not want to report rape because she would have
to name off the medication she has and the side effects,
and that alone could discredit her. So... You have all
(49:03):
of these things already happening, and then you have movies
like this that perpetuate and literally uses their trauma as
a blurb. Right. And then blame them for all the things.
And don't get me wrong, all these things are bad,
but it's also unrealistic.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Violence that these women supposedly portray, but at the same time,
how that term, crazy psycho bitch, uses that connotation, that's
what lingers over them about a person. So no matter
what this crazy may be, and it's not okay to
say that at all, but it just refers to the
worst idea of the psycho bitch trope. But yeah, and
(49:40):
beyond that, we look at the other side of that coin,
you're welcome, as it portrays people diagnosed with mental health
issues as violent and unhinged and dangerous, which again places
a mistrust and an ugly, shameful stereotype for those diagnosed,
which is... As another article from Bitch Flake talks about,
which films continue to use as shock factor portions of
(50:01):
this fictional entertainment that, again, leads to misconceived stereotypes and, again,
silences people who have these issues and who are living
with this and are able to maintain. These are things
that are being completely dismissed. And again, it's kind of
that same level when we talk about mass shootings, when
we talk about the dangers that have happened and people
(50:22):
who have, where we have had incidents and just being
saying it's a mental health thing and just categorizing it
like that. And it's so dangerous because that's not what
pushed them to this volatile state. Just because they have
a diagnosis does not mean they're going to do this.
And to label it like that and to put a
headline like that once again leads to this awful stereotype
(50:44):
and an awful misconception, which is being popularized by a
lot of films like this.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (50:51):
And it's really brazen, too, to say that and then
offer no mental health funding. Not even to do that.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Yeah, the U.S. thinks so little of actually treatment. Yeah.
But yeah, we're going to say it like that. Right.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
And I mean, this whole trope has especially been weaponized
against women. I mean, every word in it, I feel
like crazy, psycho, bitch to dismiss women. And I was
thinking about that song, that recent song, like, yeah, she's sweet,
but she's psycho.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Like, it's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
And that's kind of that whole term for pixie manic girl.
It's that same level of the cute, Manic girl. It's
kind of that whole level of like, okay, why are
you celebrating? And also, this is not a thing. Stop it.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
That is our message.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Stop it.
Speaker 4 (51:46):
So, yeah, that's an overview of this trope that we see.
There's a lot to unravel here, clearly. And just years
and years and years of how women are perceived in
our entertainment and in our culture.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
As usual, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker 4 (52:07):
So if there's something you want us to focus in on,
let us know, please. Or if there's an example we
missed you think we should talk about, send it our way.
And you can do that at our email, which is
stuffmediamomstuff at iheartmedia.com. You can also find us on Twitter
at momstuffpodcast or on Instagram at stuffmomnevertoldyou. Thanks as always
to our super producer, Andrew Howard.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Thanks, Andrew.
Speaker 4 (52:29):
And thanks to you for listening. Stuff Mom Never Told
You is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And Samantha.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
And welcome to Stuff Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio.
And today we have another classic kind.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Of Halloween-type episode that we did on the crazy psycho
bitch girl. Mm-mm-mm. Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Which I do think we should come back and revisit
because I feel like there's been sort of a shift
on depictions of a character like this. Maybe people citing
more would be like, I see where they're coming from.
Not in the older examples, but in newer examples. And
(00:55):
I just think it's really interesting that this has inspired...
Just a whole genre of horror movies and TV shows
and what have you. And as we talk about in there,
the history of why that is and dismissing women and
calling them crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I think it's really interesting. Please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,
this is Annie.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And Samantha.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
And welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You, a production
of iHeartRadio. I'm going to mix things up today.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
All right, all right. And I'm not going to ask
a question.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
No.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Or I could, but it would be a very, we
would be having to act because we actually already discussed
this in depth.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
But we recently learned, Samantha and I, Both lovers of
horror movies. We love very different types of horror movies.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
It's true. It's true.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
So today we're talking about a specific genre. Would you say,
what is your favorite genre of horror movie? So I
guess it is a question after all.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
So I think my favorite, and I've told you this,
I do love haunting movies and possession movies. So things
like Insidious is up in my likes and one of
my favorite ones, I guess. I like... See, I just
recently watched Paranormal Activity. Those are newer to me. Those
are newer to me. I love those. I watched the
(02:29):
trilogy and I did not realize they were all interconnected
because I think I watched one of the really newer
ones that aren't.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, there's like 15. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
So.
I like those. I do like the pop scares and
I'm like, oh, things are happening. What's happening? Kind of unknown.
But it's also kind of silly to me. So I
do love like the Insidious. I do like when John
Woo's stuff typically, except he also expands to like 10,000
different movies. But I don't love slasher movies. That's probably
(02:56):
one of my least favorites. And I do love the
psychological thrillers like The Strangers. That stuff freaks me out,
but I do love it. What about you?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Yeah. I definitely, I love supernatural horror movies. And I love,
I mean, my favorite horror movie of all time is
The Exorcist, which I find interesting because I'm not religious
at all. But I think those tropes, like we can
all connect with those things. And then I do like
found footage. And I actually have a list. I made
(03:28):
a list during quarantine of when people ask me like,
what movie should I watch? And I have This list
I've just been sending out, and there's a section on horror,
and I was looking through it, and I apparently also
like just weird, like really strange, like time travel horror movies.
I like trying to figure out the puzzle of like, ooh, well, oh,
(03:48):
how did this happen?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
And when did this happen?
Speaker 4 (03:50):
And it might not even make sense, and I just
like it. Yeah, I like a strange time travel horror
movie or just something really visually interesting that I haven't seen.
But what we're talking about today, I haven't seen a
lot of what you have, Samantha, when it comes to
psychological thrillers or what we're talking about today, which is
(04:15):
a whole trope that I didn't even know existed. I
certainly realized it was a thing. I just didn't know
it had a name to it.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Right. I think when I discovered the name, I sent
you a text and you were like, oh, God. We
both were like, this is the name of the trope.
Knowing that it existed, but we didn't know what the
title was.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Right. Right. So yeah, to keep up with our love
of Halloween in this month of October, we wanted to
talk about the horror movie trope of Halloween.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Psycho bitch girl.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Psycho bitch girl, crazy bitch girl, crazy woman, like any
of those.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But specifically, psycho bitch girl. And trigger warning, this is
definitely just a look at the trope and the stereotypes.
And a lot of the conversation is going to be
around dated movies that have not aged well. So we'll
go ahead and put that as a big caveat. A
lot of those, if you look back on, you're like,
holy crap, what were they thinking?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We will mention, but don't get into it too much,
about assault, death, and mental health issues. So I know
you and I actually talked about that fact that possibly
you don't watch any of these because it is heavily
reliant on those types of tropes and those types of stereotypes.
And it can be triggering for a lot of people. Especially,
I know when we talked about, and we'll talk a
(05:32):
little more about revenge films, it has to have some
kind of big traumatic beginning in order to push the
story forward. So it kind of does that same thing.
And it's, yeah, it gets in there. So we're going
to talk a little bit about those movies, just a
heads up.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Yeah, and also just a heads up, like, as the
trope's name should tell you, a lot of this is
offensive in multiple ways. Right, right.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, but we're definitely going to talk about that more.
But I want to go ahead and say it right
at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Don't get mad at us for the title. We're not
saying we approve of it. It's just, it is what
it is.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
No, no.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It was.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
It was, you would say.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
As I say, so.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
If we look at movies like Fatal Attraction, Gone Girl,
or The Audition, there is a perpetual idea that women,
especially exes, are crazy, of course. And again, like we know,
I know it's not PC to use that word, but
this is like the trope. And yeah, so yeah, I
broke up with her because they are crazy, that sort
(06:28):
of idea.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Yeah, we see this all the time and it's upsetting
how accepted it is.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Like, it's okay to say that.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Still today. People use that today and everybody's just kind
of like, really?
Speaker 4 (06:44):
It's 2020.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Stop it.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
And it is very difficult to talk about the horror
genre without talking about thriller, psychological genre, or erotic thriller,
which does include like Stalker Girl, overzealous fangirls, and even
overly obsessive mothers.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So, yeah, just brace yourself. All of that's coming.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
And we did, hey, I'm holding to some of our
older traditions, want to define what some say is, psycho
bitch girl means. And according to one Urban Dictionary definition,
it is a woman who's hormal. It's not a typo.
I'm not mispronouncing it. Apparently, this means normal for whore behaviors. Again,
according to Urban Dictionary. Yeah, I was like, what? And
(07:29):
this is an imbalanced, troublesome upbringing or a current brain
chemistry renders her irrational, angry, and prone to acts of violence.
For example, this dude, I'm going to say this dude
because the way they wrote it was very specific. In
this example of like throwing my $ 3, 400 widescreen HDTV through
the window. I don't know why that was the example,
(07:53):
but apparently that is the example of psycho bitch girl.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
And when I was thinking about this, I keep thinking about...
And we're going to talk about this, but like how
a lot of times these movies... don't get me wrong,
the woman in them is doing violent things or whatever,
but the man still has usually done something pretty badly
as well. But, you know, it's, oh, she threw my
(08:24):
TV out the window because she found out I actually
have a wife.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And I've been lying to her or whatever.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
You know, we sort of forget that part. And also,
and I want to revisit this maybe towards the end,
I would just keep in mind as we're talking about these,
like imagine the roles are flipped or imagine, Like, man
is the stalker. I feel like that has such a
different vibe. It's much more threatening in a physical way,
(08:52):
as opposed to, I feel like, with a lot of
these we're talking about today with women, it's much more
threatening in a sexual, she's imbalanced, in quotes, way.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And if you actually look at, and we will look
at it deeper, a majority of these psycho bitch tropes,
the anger is pointed to another woman.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Which could be, again, a whole other thing.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I was trying to remember... I was trying to remember
the Beyonce one. Wasn't she in one?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Obsession. Yes, with Ali Lama.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
We don't talk about that movie, but that definitely came
up as an example as well.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
So I would just keep all those things in mind
as we go over some of these examples.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
All right, so the first movie we wanted to talk about,
we mentioned above, is Fatal Attraction. I feel like this
is the iconic standard when it comes to erotic thrillers
and psycho bitch trope, which, by the way, every single
article mentions Fatal Attraction that I looked at.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Probably, again, one of the best-known movies for this. In
this 1987 film, we have main character Dan Gallagher, played
by Michael Douglas, who was in several of these types
of movies, by the way, who has an illicit affair
with Alex Forrester, played by Glenn Close. So if you're
like Annie and haven't seen this film, a quick rundown.
(10:05):
They have an affair. He pretty much drops her. She
starts doing things like stalking, faking a pregnancy, boiling a rabbit, kidnapping,
and trying to kill the wife because all that she
wants is to have a baby with Dan. And of course,
the family. Cue ace of bass music, which Annie also
doesn't know.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Nope.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I sang this to her not too long ago. I
was like, you've never heard this movie? I mean, this song?
You've never heard this song? That was very sad. So,
after trying to kill the wife, she gets shot by
the wife and everything is hunky-dory. Though, according to reports
and interviews with Glenn Close, the original intent was to
show the callousness of Dan's dismissal of his mistress and
(10:44):
the breakdown of Alex's life in psychopathy, but it later
was dwindled down to showing how, quote, crazy and over-the-top
Alex was and made Dan more of the victim.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
Yeah, and I Yeah, I haven't seen this movie. I
didn't know that his wife killed him. And you're right,
that is a very... He didn't even take responsibility, in
heavy quotes.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, even their whole time together, at the very beginning,
the premise of the movie is that he understands it
as a one-night stand. She obviously understands it as a
one-night stand, but she refused to let it go.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Oh, oh, oh.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
That always annoys me when it's like, It can't be
that you miscommunicated or whatever.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
You didn't know my intention. But like Tim might change
her mind and now she wants kids. Oh my God,
I've got to get out of here.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
This is a crazy bitch. All I want to do
is sleep with you and leave you. I don't understand.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah, throwing around that crazy bitch as just to dismiss
that a woman could have legitimate emotions or change her
mind or want something that you don't want and maybe misrepresented.
All that to say, I don't think Glenn Close.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I haven't seen this movie. I'm not justifying her actions.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I'm just saying it's interesting the way that comes up
a lot in non-murderous situations. Right, right.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So, back to another... We've.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Been talking about Stephen King a lot lately.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
He's got a lot of things. Hmm.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
So, Misery.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
We're talking about Misery, which I've never seen, but I
have read the book. And this is, yeah, a Stephen
King classic. Apparently, Stephen King proclaimed it to be one
of his favorite adaptions of his books for film. And
right now, it's the only one to win an Oscar,
thanks to the incredible performance by Kathy Bates. So, for
(12:31):
a quick rundown of this one, we have romance author
Paul Sheldon, played by James Caan, and Annie Wilkes.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Played by Kathy Bates, a seemingly kind nurse.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Who finds Paul after a car accident in which he
has broken his legs and dislocated his shoulders. She brings
him to her home under the guise that she is
a good Samaritan. She's going to nurse him back to health.
She then proceeds to let him know that she is his, quote,
number one fan. And due to her kindness, he allows
her to read the newest manuscript for his popular series
(13:04):
based on his character, Misery Chastain. Unfortunately, though, for him,
she hates the ending, and all this bad stuff ensues.
And I know I've said this before, but I feel
like every Stephen King book is about Stephen King in
one way or another. This is a fear that he has.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Well, he said that when he wrote this, he got
the inspiration when he fell asleep on the plane. I
think he had been met by someone about how much
they liked the book or something, and he fell asleep
on the plane, and this is his dream of what
could have happened. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Oh, wow. Well, lucky for him, it didn't because apparently,
you know, Annie and Kathy Bates' character demands a new
book in which he brings misery back to life.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
This is what fan fiction is for. You can do
it yourself.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
But anyway, we see the overall levels she's willing to
go to save her favorite character. Everything from drugging him,
breaking his ankles, killing a police officer. After complying and
writing a new book, he tricks her into a celebration
where a violent struggle occurs and he bashes her head
in and makes an escape. This movie does show a
(14:12):
little struggle of the overall trauma he has gone through
with the post-scene of him being triggered. So that does
add a bit of depth to his character.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, I thought it was really interesting. I'm like, he
wanted to put this... again, kind of like himself about, oh,
you know, these are the traumas that these people, when
they do this, when they go beyond this, when they
demand this. And it could be this whole story of
ownership once you give to the audience who now owns
this book or who now owns this content. And that's
a whole other conversation we've had. But yes, of course,
(14:44):
this homely, sweet nurse ends up losing it and has
to die for it in the end.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Well, that's interesting, too, because I was imagining if it
was a female writer, a woman writer, writer and a
man tormentor, it just becomes, it's less about breaking gender norms,
which is troubling in itself. Because it's still scary and
it's still bad, but it doesn't feel as weird. And
(15:11):
that's part of the reason authors do this intentionally, I
would imagine, a lot of the time, is you don't
suspect that an older woman will do this, a kind
nursewoman will. Which, yeah, is kind of troubling that I
guess we've sort of held up.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Our hands and said, yeah, men can be aggressive.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah. And that's not so out of the norm of reality.
But for women, they're crazy.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They're crazy bitches. And please know I keep saying this,
but it's the whole again.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
It's a trope, yes.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
And we are going to talk about parts of that
for sure.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
And another movie, which I actually forgot about until I
started researching this, is The Hand That Rocks the Cradle,
which was released in 1992 and plays on so many
tropes and had a lot of mixed reviews. In one article,
the critic stated this movie was a movie that asked
the audience, quote, not to think but to react, which
(16:06):
the critic said was difficult even for the current time frame.
in the 90s. So the plot, it all begins with
the main character, Claire Bartell, who was pregnant with her
second child, going to a new obstetrician where she's molested
by the doctor, Dr. Mott. After she reports him to
the police, several other women come forward alleging the same
type of abuse. He then shoots himself rather than getting arrested,
(16:27):
leaving behind his wife, Mrs. Mott, played by Rebecca De Mornay.
who was pregnant at the time. After losing everything due
to the incident, Mrs. Moth loses the baby as well.
She then proceeds to plan her revenge against the main accuser,
Claire Bartell. At this point, she gets hired by Claire
as a nanny under a pseudonym, of course. in which
(16:51):
she then tries to ruin Claire's family and her life
by manipulating the older daughter and turning her against her family,
breastfeeding the newborn, causing it to imprint, is that how
they said it, on her, and trying to seduce the husband,
which doesn't work because, you know, he's a great guy.
And then by killing her best friend, who, by the way,
is Julianna Moore. Yeah, I was like, oh, I didn't
realize she was in this movie because she was figuring
(17:13):
it out. So if you haven't already guessed it, yes, dear, Mrs.
Mott gets killed accidentally by the wife who figures everything out.
And that's the end of that. And that's the end
of the movie. And then the family lives happily ever after.
So it just has this whole level of victim blaming,
sexual assault, this whole fear of losing babies and having
(17:36):
babies and taking families. It's got a lot in there.
And you kind of like sit there. It's been a
very long time since I've seen it. But they have
this whole like plague of like, these are the things
you should be afraid of. And this is what happens
in motherhood and lots of things. And you need to
be careful what you say. It's a very weird kind
of mixed ideas. And like I said, There was a
(18:00):
lot of mixed reviews of like.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Is this a good movie?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Is this a bad movie? What's happening? But Rebecca De
Mornay's performance was actually amazing and very frightening. So she
did a good job on that one.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, I haven't seen that, but intriguing.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I haven't, okay, we're about to talk about what I
haven't seen, but I feel like I've seen, and that
is single white female.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
I think everybody feels that way.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Yes. So this one is a bit of a flip
because it's more of an erotic thriller with homoerotic overtones.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So we have Hedy. I'm going to go with Hedy.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Played by Jennifer Jason Leigh and Allie played by Bridget Fonda.
And yes, there are a lot of pop cultural references
made in regards to this 1992 film. So it's definitely
worth talking about. Here we see a different take as
where it's not just a look at the fears women
have and the harringtales of marital transgression, but a possible
(18:54):
cautionary tale of female independence, as well as sisterhood, or
as one article says, also a story that has a
lesbian-phobic layer. And I would definitely, definitely agree with that,
even not having seen it. I've seen clips of it.
And I remember when I was in college, I was
telling Samantha, like, I just have this really funny story
(19:15):
where my, one of my best friends, because this was
my first year of college, right?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And you're making a bunch of new friends.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
And it so happened that she ended up in a
dorm where she, I was best friends with like all
of her roommates and I ended up in a dorm
where she was best friend of.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
All, all my roommates. And there was just sort of
this tension.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
There was this weird thing there because we both understood it,
but we never really talked about it. And when we
used to joke about like, don't single white female, don't try.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
To replace me. But okay, back to the movie.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
Here, we see a very traumatized woman Hedy whose twin
sister drowned at the age of nine coming into Ali's
life who after finding out her fiance had cheated on
her and then being professionally and sexually taken advantage of
by a rich man needed to find a new roommate
and Single white female. Enter Hedy, who slowly changes her
(20:10):
physical appearance to mimic Allie's, as well as impersonating her
at different locations and overall trying to become her. We
quickly see things unravel, and Hedy is trying to control
and manipulate Allie by hiding things from her, as well
as impersonating her. which eventually leads to Hedy killing several
people and trying to get Allie to take her own
(20:32):
life as well. The boyfriend's death scene includes a stiletto. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
This is kind of... I remember because it became an
iconic thing where people were like, oh, my God, how
do you kill someone with that? Yeah, she used a
stiletto to kill the boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Of course.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
If you're going to wear stilettos, then always make it
a weapon. After the death of Hedy, we see a
little more with Allie sympathizing with Hedy and stating that
part of Hedy, whose real name we find out is Ellen,
of her issues, that she had survivor's guilt from the
death of her twin.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Which caused that type of trauma.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Right. And the more we talked, like the more I
researched it, the more I looked at it, yeah, there
was this whole overall, this is why this movie is
very problematic. They love gay men, but really were afraid
of lesbians and here are these things. And it does
have this whole thing. And we're going to talk about
that a little deeper, the sexualization within these movies. But
it's interesting to get really into like, yeah, what is
(21:29):
wrong with people?
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, during this time period, I feel like there was
a lot, and this still happens for sure, but I
feel like there was a glut of, like, lesbian-phobic, biphobic messaging, or,
I mean, it's still phobic, but, like, I can turn her, like, there's, like,
chasing Amy type things.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, but definitely, and it was a comedy as well
as horror. So it's one or the other that is
made fun of or being afraid of. And we're going
to talk about that a little more, but it is
interesting to note this is one of those movies that
they talk about. And then another movie, which I don't
think I've ever actually watched. I just remember hearing a
lot of it. Oh, you've actually seen this one, which
(22:08):
is Gone Girl. It's not necessarily a horror, but it
is a psychological thriller and trying to like piece together
what's happening. But again, I didn't want to mention it
because this also reversed the trope a little bit from
wife being the victim to wife being the mastermind and
being the psycho bitch character instead of the innocent that's
just walking and watching it or being victimized by the
(22:29):
psycho bitch. For the plot, we see the picture-perfect couple,
which comes crumbling down as Amy, played by Rosamund Pike,
appears missing and a case is opened due to her
disappearance and possible death. All the while, Nick, played by
Ben Affleck, is trying to prove his innocence as evidence
starts to mount against him and he's suspected of foul play. Here,
(22:49):
we see things unravel from flashbacks of the relationship to
his eventual cheating, of course. And then we are clued
in as Nick tries to get answers that Amy has
been plotting against him in order to punish him for
his misdeeds, including framing him for her own murder and
accusing him of assault and abuse. It eventually falls apart
and she returns home blaming an ex-boyfriend for all of
(23:12):
the events. Also, they remain together as she has artificially
inseminated herself with Nick's sperm and is now pregnant with
his baby. And they remain together unhappily ever after.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Well, it is interesting because she, yeah, she goes from, oh,
she's the victim and we're trying to figure out this
mystery to, no, she did it because he was a
terrible husband, essentially.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
But it does show, it's one of the few examples
on here, I think, where it's like, you don't ever, they're.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Both almost equally guilty.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
I know some people would be mad at me for
saying that because clearly she did kill somebody. But I
mean that in terms of how the viewer is like,
it's not like they're like, look, Nick is so perfect
and she's clearly crazy. And then in the end, he's
sort of complicit. It's hard to describe, I guess. But
(24:10):
this also, this movie is one of the funniest meetings
I've ever had in my life was when this just
came out and we were talking about... Because, you know,
it was like, you can see Ben Affleck's penis if
you pause.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It at the right spot.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And we were talking.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
About this and one of our co-workers, Matt, who some
of you might know from other podcasts we do, but
is like the sweetest, literal sweetest person I know... He
was looking around at us kind of confusedly. And then
he said, wait, are we talking about his dong right now?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Oh, Matt.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Like, yep. Oh, it was so funny. And then we
had somebody on the phone and he was like, everybody
shut up. And he was like, hey, hey, Tyler on
the phone. They're talking about Ben Affleck's dong.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Wonderful. But anyway, so.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Here in this example, we see the psycho bitch trope
being used as a payback revenge con that makes the
adulterer pay not by the jilted lover, but by the
angry wife. There is a lot of debate of whether
or not this character is another stereotype of an angry
bitch who lies about being assaulted and manipulative, and the
poor husband is the victim once again. This also comes up.
(25:25):
This was one of the first times I heard cool girl. Yes.
Because she has a whole monologue about being the cool girl.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
It does seem to be portrayed differently in the book.
I read the book, but I can't recall. But anyway,
in which you see the male character being a lot
more misogynistic than in the movie, I do think I.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Did like him better in the movie. But anyway.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
But her overall callousness and evil does seem to ask
for sympathy for the.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Poor fool.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
You're calling my word dope?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Dope. Don't call me husband. So, go ahead. Portrayed by
Ben Affleck.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
I mean, he does seem to have that clueless face.
I do remember seeing the scenes, and he just has
a clueless face the entirety of the movie.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
So.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
That's pretty much... Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (26:13):
His whole role in that is just looking confused and
realizing he's screwed.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And yes, there are so many other examples, especially in
the 90s. Maybe that's why I know so much about them.
This is my era. And because it's just such a
big theme at that point, which includes Basic Instinct, which
has that big seduction scene we know of with Sharon
Stone and Michael Douglas. And of course, the icicles. So
I don't know if you've... Well, that's how she murdered people. Oh.
(26:42):
It was an ice pick. I think it was an
ice pick. I think I got that one wrong. I
was like, icicle would have been so much smarter. It
just melts away. I'm trying to remember.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Y'all, listeners, tell me. I know I can look this up,
but I'd rather you tell me if you actually saw
this movie. I can't quite remember. Either it's the ice
pick or an icicle. And then The Crush, which is
a movie about a teenage crush going wrong with Alicia
Silverstone and Carrie Elwes. Someone had actually written a whole
article about it and how much they loved her character
just because they were talking about how, as a 14-year-old,
(27:12):
how much do you have to love and how much
confidence do you have in yourself that you would just
go after.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
People like that?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And I was like, Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But kind of a turn. And man, just seems women
wanting sex makes them crazy. That seems like that's the
theme here. If women want sex or if women have sex,
it makes them crazy.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
According to all these movies. And of course, we're going
to talk a little more about that. But yeah, definitely
is this theme that goes throughout.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And speaking of themes, we are not done with this.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Oh, no.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
But first, we have a quick break for a word
from our sponsor. And we're back. Thank you, sponsor.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
So yeah, while we were researching, we did find a
few honorable mentions, I guess. Not necessarily the main characters
who were seen as the psychopathic girl or girlfriend. So
we wanted to go over a handful of those. Right.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And honestly, this one shocked me and I wanted to
talk about it with you a little bit. But in
Harry Potter, they actually named Bellatrix. Yes, you could consider
definitely a psychopathic evil. But because it's fantasy... you know,
like children's fantasy on top of that. I didn't see
that as much. It's not what you typically think. Also,
she wasn't anybody's partner necessarily. Like she was a doting
(28:40):
like servant more so than anything else.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
What do you think? Well, I'm assuming that this all
comes from the Cursed Child.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Oh, is that what it is?
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Spoiler alerts. Anybody who doesn't want to know. Yeah, she
is with Voldemort in Cursed Child. And she's like... so
desperate to be with him and to serve him and
give him whatever he wants, that she sires his child.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
So that he can have an heir. Even though I
was like, but doesn't he think he's never going to die?
I thought he was dead. He is.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
There's flashbacks. There's like a whole time travel thing in this.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
All right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
So that would make a lot more sense because I
was like, what? They did such a great job in
the movies and the books before. Yes, I'm very sad
about talking about this. So put a little, you know,
asterisk on this one.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
This has been tainted for me. But that to put
them in such a, not like, it's not, sexual yeah
that I didn't think of it that way I guess.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Yeah I mean there's certainly and I might be ruined
by all of my reading of fan fiction but if
all of my reading of fan fiction is correct and
you all know I don't look for romance a lot
of people did interpret her relationship as borderline at least
borderline I guess it's almost like worshiping someone so much
(30:05):
that if he had said we're together, she would have
been like, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I feel like anybody would have said that. Like anybody
who serves him, they would never have said no. Like
if it was a man, woman, whomever.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
But she would have been proud of it. She would
have been honored.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
She doesn't want to be chosen by him and does
stick to him. And I do remember the scene where,
you know, Molly calls him, calls her a bitch. So
fair enough. And then another mention is Wedding Crashers, Amy
Fisher's character, who is more of the comedic take and
to me seems to fit into the pixie manic girl,
but definitely does fit the whole, what is it, guy
(30:43):
getting in trouble genre movies where they have to have
that one girl who's stalking them, you know, and oh
my God, look at this crazy girl. So yeah, she
definitely was one of the big mentions.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
Well, that's an interesting aspect of it too is When
you talk about something like that, which is more comedic,
the idea that there's almost an air of, I am
so attractive or I'm so worth having that, of course.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I have almost groupies.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
That you've got to have one following you around. And
it's funny. Like, it's a marker of, I don't know,
being a virile, attractive man. Yes. The women can't resist you.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
Right. Yeah. And then there's Girl Interrupted, Angelina Jolie. Oh,
I read that book, but it was a long time ago.
I did a project on it in high school. Oh, wow. Yeah.
And this whole thing, and we're going to come back
and talk about this a little bit more, I know,
but you can debate it was trivializing or romanticizing mental
(31:45):
health needs.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
And I think that's one of the reasons I chose it.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
When you're in that sort of melancholy.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
Poetic, or I'm not going to say everyone goes through
this stage, but a lot of people do when you're
in high school and you're kind of being all sad.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Right.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
And that this, I thought, was like, oh, look how
beautiful sadness can be, which I know is very problematic.
And I've grown listeners.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, but that's the thing. It's what gets fed to
us and believing what this is.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Right, right. But yes, definitely Angelina Jolie's character I could
see fitting that trope.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
And then Friday the 13th, which, spoiler alert, the mom
is actually the serial killer in this one. And I
knew this before I even saw Friday the 13th because
it's the question that trips up Drew Barrymore in Scream
when the.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Serial killer was asking her, like, who's the killer?
Speaker 4 (32:43):
And she got the answer wrong because everyone assumes it's Jason.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Right. Because the rest of the series it is.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
But it's actually Jason's mom who wants revenge for these
camp counselors who were having sex and not watching her child.
And he drowned in Crystal Lake, which, by the way,
is in Portal to Hell. And the FBI comes in
and sends Jason to space because obviously... What? I've seen
all of these now.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, I think you're not talking about this.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
But anyway, this is also kind of a play on the...
always blame the mother trope because.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
She turned out to be the serial killer.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Usually you're blaming the mother for this male serial killer's actions,
but in this case she actually was the serial killer.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
And actually in Scream 2.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
The, spoiler alert, the killer in that one, Billy Loomis'
mom from the first one, Billy Loomis from the first one, she,
I'm pretty sure they purposefully cast someone who looks like
the mother in Friday the 13th to kind of pay
an homage to that.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, Scream definitely likes to do tongue-in-cheek homages to other
horror movies, which is fair. Which, by the way, I
watched Urban Legend talk about homages, and the main guy
who plays Freddy is in it to teach us Urban Legends,
and I forgot that. I was like, oh, my God.
I haven't seen Urban Legends, and it's bad.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
It's really bad.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
But I watched it again last night, but I was
just like, what is this? Anyway, another comedy version of
the psycho bitch trope is My Super Ex-Girlfriend, which which
is not really a popular movie, but I just remember thinking,
what is this? And here we have Uma Thurman being
a superhero who is heartbroken and becomes vengeful. And as
(34:32):
it says in one article, becomes more neurotic as her
relationship with Luke Wilson's character ends. And this one is
supposed to be a comedy again, like I said, and
does have a flip at the end where the women
are the heroes making a difference and, you know, stopping
crime while the male partners are, you know, sitting back,
holding their purses, waiting for them to come back. So
it does have that little flip, and it's definitely tongue-in-cheek.
(34:54):
But it starts with, what if your ex-girlfriend, who you
see as crazy and clingy, which is what they describe
her as, has superpowers? And then it goes into that.
So it's like, take what you know is already a
bad trope and add a lot more power and danger
because she is so strong now. Which could be said, yeah,
(35:14):
that's what happens when we talk about men having too
much power and being a lot more stronger than you.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
That's what it looks like.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
And then we did want to mention Carrie, which we
already talked about in our episode on.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Why our period's so terrifying.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
But I wanted to add here both the mother and
daughter were on the list. We had kind of two
different quotes, two different types of, quote, psycho. You got
religious and tortured. And I suppose while we're at it,
we could mention psycho.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Right. The mom and psycho who also... Well, I guess
she's not the serial killer.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
She's not the serial killer. He has a dual personality
because of the abuse that he suffered, but it's not her.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
That's right. It's not her. I forgot about that.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
But if you want to talk about the fear of
women and sex, the main female character is running away,
I believe, because of an affair. And so she kind
of has to pay in the end for her sexuality.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
Punish.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
And guilt. And then one last one we wanted to
mention and we spoke about a little bit earlier is
The Audition. And oh my God, this one haunts me.
And I blame Annie and my partner for not telling
me what kind of movie this was. But yes, it
would play on the traumatized and victimized with unresolved mental
health issues that turns someone violent and irrational. And yeah,
(36:31):
I was not expecting this. And it is a Japanese film.
It's a lot about torture. And I didn't know this.
And even the trauma was like, oh my God, why?
So I wasn't ready because I don't love slasher films.
I think I already mentioned that. I don't like torture films.
I hate it. I've never seen any of the Saw.
I've never seen Hostel. I don't like it. I think
(36:53):
it's disgusting. And nothing about this... Like, yes, people love
like the horror aspect of being like, oh my God,
what if this happens to you? I don't need to
see it. So I wasn't expecting it. So when I
came across, I was like, I think the first question
when I had met Annie a couple of years ago
was like, hey, what are your favorite horror films? Because
you know, she's a horror movie buff. Of course I
(37:13):
need to know. And she put this at the top
of her list. I was like, cool, cool, cool. I'll
watch it. She's like, yeah, yeah, you should watch it.
And I watched it. I think I started texting you.
I'm like, what the hell is wrong with you? What
have you done to me?
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Well, okay.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
To be fair to me, I don't think I bought
it up. I think your partner bought it up and
I was like, that's a really good movie. But I
hadn't seen it in so long and I totally forgot
about what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
And I rewatched it after your horrified text. I was like,
oh yeah. This is pretty messed up.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
And for me, for me watching horror movies like this,
I have to finish it or it lingers with me.
Like something about not finishing it just causes more nightmares
for me. So I had to finish it and I
was so unhappy.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:54):
And you know, like this movie is probably one of
the ultimate examples of what we're talking about because it's
got the like, she's an ex, she's got this abuse
and then there's torture. And again, he kind of, he
played her. He totally, the main male character totally played
her and used her But she got her some revenge
(38:19):
for sure. I guess you could include the American version
of the grudge too. Right.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Because she was sort of a That's.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Kind of when we were talking about the mother or
even like the supernatural level of what's going on, of
who's blaming what and what comes out.
Speaker 4 (38:34):
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
And this is kind of what we were talking about.
You like the pre, no, I like the pre hauntings
and you like the aftermath. So these are the things
that would have happened. But the beginning part is awful.
Like seeing them, how they got murdered, how they got stalked,
how they got that. And then, but instead, like, so
it was definitely, I think that's how we kind of,
Put the line. The line, yeah. Yeah, or the metric,
(38:55):
I guess. But yeah, but for sure, this is definitely
one of those movies that plays on every single one
of the strokes. Not only do you play on the innocent,
sweet girl who he has to have because she seems
so innocent and pure, but then turns out she's not
so innocent and pure, and she wreaks havoc.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Yes. Oh, yes, she does.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Oh, yes. Okay, so we've covered a lot of ground,
but we did want to talk about some themes in
these movies. But before we do that, we're going to
pause for one more quick break for a word from
our sponsor. and we're back thank you sponsor so one
(39:41):
of the big themes in these movies is revenge yes
In almost every single one we talked about, in fact,
we see this theme of revenge. And we've talked about
women before, women in revenge films. And we've talked about
the ins and outs of revenge films and how women
are portrayed in these films. I know I've talked about before,
(40:02):
I generally don't like revenge movies, even though it seems
that I play a lot of revenge video games. And
when I write, I write a lot of revenge. So
I don't know what that's all about. But I watched
a lot of them for this research. And I have
to say, like, two or three of them haunt me.
And not in a bad way, necessarily.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
They're the ones written and directed by women.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
Right. And I think that's why. It felt more true.
And in that way, more, like, painful. Like, my heart hurts.
Because when you're talking about, like, rape and revenge, there's
just this awful traumatic thing.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
And look at the outcome of it.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
But, I.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
Mean, as is the case in a lot of these things,
the revenge doesn't often match the ensuing actions these women take.
One article said that if Skorner mistreated, quote, she then
ends up trying to exact revenge, becoming obsessed, sometimes even murderous.
No matter what direction a film takes, it is clear
(41:03):
the woman is meant to be seen as, in quotes, crazy.
The use of this trope has been heavily critiqued, not
only because of its portrayal of women, but how it
connects to stereotypes about mental health. It invalidates women's behavior
and real mental health struggles by simply reducing the person
to being crazy. When a woman is deemed crazy, she
is dismissible and irrelevant. And yeah, that is a really
(41:27):
big discussion within these movies.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Like, the very trope, it's right there.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
Why does over-dramatizing and stereotyping of mental health make the
plot of these films... And continue to cause damage in
open conversation of these mental health issues. And I actually
think this is a problem in horror at large because
a lot of times the twist is somebody has a
mental health issue.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Right.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
Or that's why they're doing whatever it is that they're doing,
whatever nefarious thing they're doing, which is problematic.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, we're going to talk a little more in depth
about it later at the end of this, because it's
definitely something we need to cover and have a continued conversation.
Because as much as we enjoy being scared, as much
as we see this plot as something that brings along
the movie, it is problematic. And we have to be
able to confront that. Yeah. On top of that, we
(42:15):
also wanted to talk about motherhood as a theme. And
if you couldn't tell, many of the films and characters
have some type of criticism of either being a mother,
not being a mother, or wanting to be a mother.
Specific to the movie Fatal Attraction, one article written by
Amanda Hess, she writes, when Glenn Close's 36-year-old book editor
has a one-night fling with Michael Douglas' happily married attorney,
(42:37):
Dan Gallagher, Dan expects the cool girl, which we talked
about with Gone Girl, independent Alex to remain discreet. Instead,
her biological clock goes berserk and she cuts her wrist,
incessantly calls his home, announces she's pregnant, throws acid on
his car, boils his kid's perfect bunny, abducts his perfect child,
and attempts to stab his perfect housewife. And at the
film's end, the perfect wife shoots the psycho bitch in
(42:58):
the heart by killing Alex and... in parentheses, her gestating fetus,
the film restores the sanctity of the perfect family. Or
as Susan Fowley wrote of the message in her 1991 book, Backlash,
the best single woman is a dead one. So we
see over and over again, whether we look at the
protective mothers, like comedies in Monster-in-Law, which is a Jennifer Lopez,
(43:19):
Jane Fonda movie, or grieving mothers like The Hen That
Rocks the Cradle or Friday the 13th, Or even manipulative mothers,
we see the same theme over and over again about
how this causes them to be, or the lack of,
or any of this is why they're psycho, as they
like to say it.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
Right, and existing outside of being independent and not needing
a man.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Right. And then that making you, quote, crazy. Right. Yeah,
because it's threatening the patriarchal system we all live in.
Speaker 4 (43:50):
We also wanted to talk about sex and sexiness, which
is a very broad theme that, yeah, we could talk
about pretty much in anything we talk about in media.
But we couldn't ignore the obvious trip of femme fatales
and their use of sex and sexiness to gain entry
to someone's life, into someone's life, or just as a
way of meeting. In fact, a majority of films with
(44:13):
psychopathic women seem to fall under the exotic thriller genre
as well. which allows for the movie to talk about
the horror of women having or enjoying sex without giving
too much credit or sexual identity for women. Movies like
Basic Instinct, and though we didn't talk about it earlier,
Swimfan and Jennifer's Body, which is a really wonderful movie.
I actually really like that one, continue to exploit female
(44:36):
bodies and the idea of their usefulness. And for the
world of femme fatales, Abby Bender writes, in the world
of erotic thrillers, sex is a tool and revenge is
always an option.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
And many articles have been written about the biphobic and
overall lesbian-phobic representations of the characters within this trope and genre. Again,
using basic instinct as the example, the relationship between character
Catherine and Roxy, we see the relationship through the male
gaze and is often portrayed as merely objects to, quote,
arouse the male viewer, as an article from the Bitch
(45:09):
Flicks states. The author continues and writes, though many directors...
specifically male directors, don't necessarily mean to objectify their characters. Quote,
their female characters are shown to have some charming qualities,
but in the end, they're promiscuous and manipulative and never
to be trusted.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
And this reminded me of something I totally forgot about.
So there was this thing at work back when Kristen,
past host and creator Kristen, when I did the video,
she did one, a parody of this thing called The
Crazy Hot Matrix. which many of you probably have heard
of from, I believe it was on How I Met
Your Mother. But this was a video that a man
(45:50):
made and legitimately believed that the more beautiful a woman is,
the hotter she is, the more crazy she is. And
he had this graph. And when we made the parody
of it, this was.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
The one that got me doxxed.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
People, they were so mad about it.
Speaker 4 (46:08):
And I was like, clearly we're joking, but also this
video is a real thing that exists. But the fact
that that was the one that got me, Docs, I
think is very telling when it comes to this trope
and how we do view women still as like, yeah,
you can have sex with this crazy hot woman, but
(46:28):
don't forget she's crazy and you don't want to marry her.
Because that was the point. Like you wanted to marry
a five and have sex with a ten.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Right. And all of this is offensive. I don't agree
with any of it. I hope that's clear.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Oh, yeah. This is definitely like pickup artists' charts, too.
They really saw the character Barney as being an icon
for them. So I could absolutely see you being raked
over the coals by them, for sure.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
It was wild. We had to get security guards.
Speaker 4 (46:54):
Oh, my God. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
So we did want to talk.
Speaker 4 (46:58):
About this stigma with mental health and women.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
So we've given... some examples.
Speaker 4 (47:03):
There are so many, but we've given some of the
psycho bitch trope in the horror thriller genre and how
it has slowly been changing throughout the years, but not
necessarily as fast as you might expect with the growing
feminist movements and just discussions around mental health. However, we
did want to talk about the overall ableist idea behind
the genre and usage of the term crazy and psycho bitch.
(47:27):
And though we won't go into the history of the
language because we have done that before, um, We did
want to look at the continued stigma tropes like these
perpetuate and the damage they cause.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
As one article said, In.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
It, writer Joanne Chu talks about the dangers of how
these tropes not only maintain the negative stereotypes, but continue
to negate the legitimacy of violence against women with disabilities.
She writes, When they experience violence because they are seen
as crazy or because they are not able to understand
(48:01):
or communicate what happened to them, their attackers are rarely
brought to justice. And this is a big conversation for us,
as we recently discussed in our Violence Against Women episode
on how vulnerable we make people in the disabled community
feel when we allow such ableist representation to be mainstream.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Right, and I think it was legitimately calling out the
fact that When we have these things saying it's their
fault that people no longer believe them. So they have
all of these hurdles. already just being able to say
whether they're not able to communicate with people or whether
they're not able to prove something, all of these things,
(48:42):
but to have this other part of, yeah, but what
did you do? But you're crazy. You can't even talk
about it because whatever, whatnot. And she even gave an
example of a client she had who stated that she
did not want to report rape because she would have
to name off the medication she has and the side effects,
and that alone could discredit her. So... You have all
(49:03):
of these things already happening, and then you have movies
like this that perpetuate and literally uses their trauma as
a blurb. Right. And then blame them for all the things.
And don't get me wrong, all these things are bad,
but it's also unrealistic.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Violence that these women supposedly portray, but at the same time,
how that term, crazy psycho bitch, uses that connotation, that's
what lingers over them about a person. So no matter
what this crazy may be, and it's not okay to
say that at all, but it just refers to the
worst idea of the psycho bitch trope. But yeah, and
(49:40):
beyond that, we look at the other side of that coin,
you're welcome, as it portrays people diagnosed with mental health
issues as violent and unhinged and dangerous, which again places
a mistrust and an ugly, shameful stereotype for those diagnosed,
which is... As another article from Bitch Flake talks about,
which films continue to use as shock factor portions of
(50:01):
this fictional entertainment that, again, leads to misconceived stereotypes and, again,
silences people who have these issues and who are living
with this and are able to maintain. These are things
that are being completely dismissed. And again, it's kind of
that same level when we talk about mass shootings, when
we talk about the dangers that have happened and people
(50:22):
who have, where we have had incidents and just being
saying it's a mental health thing and just categorizing it
like that. And it's so dangerous because that's not what
pushed them to this volatile state. Just because they have
a diagnosis does not mean they're going to do this.
And to label it like that and to put a
headline like that once again leads to this awful stereotype
(50:44):
and an awful misconception, which is being popularized by a
lot of films like this.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (50:51):
And it's really brazen, too, to say that and then
offer no mental health funding. Not even to do that.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Yeah, the U.S. thinks so little of actually treatment. Yeah.
But yeah, we're going to say it like that. Right.
Speaker 4 (51:06):
And I mean, this whole trope has especially been weaponized
against women. I mean, every word in it, I feel
like crazy, psycho, bitch to dismiss women. And I was
thinking about that song, that recent song, like, yeah, she's sweet,
but she's psycho.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Like, it's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
And that's kind of that whole term for pixie manic girl.
It's that same level of the cute, Manic girl. It's
kind of that whole level of like, okay, why are
you celebrating? And also, this is not a thing. Stop it.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
That is our message.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Stop it.
Speaker 4 (51:46):
So, yeah, that's an overview of this trope that we see.
There's a lot to unravel here, clearly. And just years
and years and years of how women are perceived in
our entertainment and in our culture.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
As usual, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker 4 (52:07):
So if there's something you want us to focus in on,
let us know, please. Or if there's an example we
missed you think we should talk about, send it our way.
And you can do that at our email, which is
stuffmediamomstuff at iheartmedia.com. You can also find us on Twitter
at momstuffpodcast or on Instagram at stuffmomnevertoldyou. Thanks as always
to our super producer, Andrew Howard.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Thanks, Andrew.
Speaker 4 (52:29):
And thanks to you for listening. Stuff Mom Never Told
You is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
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