May 1, 2026 • 40 mins
When it comes to fighting wildfires, women have historically faced a lot of obstacles. In this classic, we uncover the often overlooked history of women doing this difficult work, the progress that's been made, and the work that still needs to be done.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, this is Anny Ann Smitha. I'm welcome to stuff.
I never told you a picture of Iheartradia, and today
we are bringing back a classic on women and wildland
firefighting because here in Georgia we've actually had some wildfires
(00:28):
and a friend of mine was impacted by it, not
directly but indirectly, and you know, there was all the
warnings of don't don't start any fires outside, or just
be really careful, the conditions are really bad. And so
I just got me thinking about this episode that we
(00:49):
did and how we missed out on the opportunity Eves
offered to connect us with a woman who had worked
in this field. We should follow up.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I think we need to follow up.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, yes, but in the meantime, please enjoy this classic episode.
Hey this and Samantha rocome stuff. I never told your
prediction of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And we're talking about something that kind of had already
been hitd on. So past hosts Kristen and Caroline did
a great episode in two thousand and nine on women
in firefighting, but we thought we would take some time
to talk about the women within the wildland firefighting community,
a very specific group of people. It is a specific
field that has become a huge need unfortunately, especially as
(01:48):
of late. Content warning straight up, obviously we're going to
talk about fires, land damage, all of that. There's mention
of suicide, of mental health issues as well as sexual harassment.
So go ahead, We're not getting too much into it.
We're just getting into some statistics as.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We always do.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So there's a lot happening around the world, and unfortunately,
some of these things are disasters that are destroying lands,
property and the environment overall. So, like I said, Chigoandi
about all these incidents, but we also mentioned fire and arson,
death and natural disasters. So with that, the wildland fire
fighting field has been around for quite some time now,
(02:27):
like most of history around the world. Even with its existence,
it took way way longer for women to be even
a part of this field at all. But before we
get into all of that, we're going to look at
statistics and facts around wildland fires in general. Again, it's a.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Lot, yeah, So let's start with the definition from our
world and data dot org quote. A wildfire is an
uncontrolled burn of vegetation, which includes the burning of forest,
shrublands and grasslands, savannahs, and crop plans. Wildfires can be
caused by human activity such as arson, unattended fires, or
the loss of control of planned burns, and natural causes
(03:09):
such as lightning. The amount of wildfires in recent years
have substantially increased. According to the twenty twenty three World
Resources Institute quote, the latest data on forest fires confirms
what we've long feared. Forest fires are becoming more widespread,
burning nearly twice as much tree copper today as they
did twenty years ago. Using data from a recent study
(03:29):
by researchers at the University of Maryland, we calculated that
forest fires now result in three million more hectors of
tree cover loss per year compared to two thousand and one,
an area roughly the size of Belgium, and accounted for
more than one quarter of all tree cover loss over
the past twenty years.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Right and article continues. Twenty twenty one was one of
the worst years for forest fires since the turn of
the century, causing an alarming nine point three million hectares
of tree cover loss globally, over one third of all
tree cover loss that occurred that year, though down from
the previous year. Over six point six million hectares of
tree cover was lost to force fires in twenty twenty two,
(04:09):
similar to other years over the past decades, and in
twenty twenty three, the world has already seen heightened fire activity,
including record breaking burns across Canada and catastrophic fires in Hawaii,
which we all remember so. In fact, in a recent
article written by reporter Claire Moses for The New York Times,
at least four point five million acres have been burned
(04:30):
in North America this year already. Here's a quote from
her article. So far this year, over twenty eight thousand
wildfires have burned more than four point five million acres
in the United States, according to the National Interagency Fire Center,
US fire activity for twenty twenty four is above the
average for the last decade, agency data shows, and the
resulting destruction has already mounted to more than that burned
(04:53):
in all of twenty three three, and with the expected
peak of this year's fire season still at least a
month or more away. X say that fires are burning
with a level of intensity rarely seen at this point
in the summer, and yet this article was written in August.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Y'all, Typically, wildfire season begins in June or July and
continues on into mid fall, but some are saying that
timeline will extend in part due to climate change. The
article continues saying, quote experts have grown concerned about the
sheer number of fires burning in Western States this early
in the season. As of Saturday, there were eighty nine
(05:28):
large active fires according to the NIFC, most of them
in the Pacific Northwest in California.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
The calls of wildfires vary greatly, but some of the
causes are as follows according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs,
including lightning, burning off and outcrop or underground coal seam,
campfire or bonfire, smoking like cigarettes and matches, fire use
such as debris burning or burning of ditches and fields,
arson or illegal burning equipment such as vehicles and aircrafts,
(05:58):
railroads apparently part of that as well, kids or miners
playing with fire or fireworks, and others and others are
like It can uncover so many, including birth announcements, our
gender reveals as we remember.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Of course, as we said earlier, the current state of
climate change has made the wildfire situation much more severe
and concerning. Here's some information from the Environmental Defense Fund. Quote.
Climate change can make environments more susceptible to burning, increasing
severe heat and drought due to climate change can fuel wildfires.
Hotter temperatures evaporate more moisture from soil and vegetation, drying
(06:36):
out trees, shrubs, and grasses, and turning leaf litter and
fallen branches into kindling. In times of drought, trees that
are stressed by a lack of water may also become
more vulnerable to insects and diseases that can weaken or
kill them, creating more fuel for fires. And in the
western US, snowpacks are shrinking and melting earlier in the year,
(06:56):
which makes forest more flammable by reducing the water available
for vegetation. Fire is a natural phenomenon that serves important
ecological purposes, clearing dead and disease plants from some forest,
for example, and even helping some plants reproduce. But a
rapidly warming planet, along with the history of short sighted
forest management practices and land use decisions that push development
(07:18):
into the wilderness, is contributing to more destructive wildfires.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Right and some more information from the World Resource Institute
quote climate change is one of the major drivers of
increasing fire activities. Extreme heat waves are already five times
more likely today than they wore one hundred and fifty
years ago and are expected to become even more frequent
as a planet continues to warm. Hotter temperatures dry out
the landscape and help create the perfect environment for large,
(07:44):
more frequent forest fires. This in turn leads to higher
emissions from forest fires, further exacerbating climate change and contributing
to more fires as part of a fire climate feedback loop. Yeah,
so in this we were having this hile conversation about
the fact that this is a whole cycle that's causing
more and more chaos. We've talked about this before about
(08:07):
the cause and effects of some things, and force fires
is right in the middle of that. So there's different
research of methods for trying to bring a solution to
the problem of the increased wildfires, and much of that
is being done through actual wildland firefighters.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yes, for some context. Here are some of the differences
between wildland firefighters versus structural firefighters from palatianews dot com.
The training and education of each are different. Quote. The
first notable difference between structure and wildland firefighting is their
disparate training and education methods. While both groups must receive
(08:42):
extensive training, the biggest difference is in the techniques required
to deal with hazardous fires, and their requirements are worlds apart.
For example, a wildland firefighter must have a post secondary education,
past various written and physical tests, have a red card
certification that will allows them to perform duties as a
wildline firefighter, and have experience working in rough terrain. On
(09:06):
the other hand, structural firefighters must go through various written
and physical tests, pass several interviews, and have Emergency Medical
Technician AMT certification.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Right, So, equipment and a PPE are also different. For
wildlind firefighters, items like line gear, chainsaws, campus and GPS
are a must, while items like self containing breeding apparatus,
scuba and access are used for structural firefighters. So when
we talk about structural firefighters, we're talking about, you know, firefighters.
(09:37):
That's what we regularly think the ones on the calendar.
Just kidding. It's also noted that being on duty for
structural firefighters is all year long, while for most wildlin
firefighters it is seasonal, as well as the fact that
containing a wildfire versus a structural fire uses very different methods,
such as wildlind fire fighters having to create quote fire
(09:59):
lines by cutting down trees and digging up grass in
the path of the fire to stop it from spreading.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
And also we're going to talk about some of the
specialized units within wildland firefighters which make them different as well. Okay,
now we got that down. Let's talk about the history
of wildland firefighters for just a minute. Bear with us.
It was an eighteen eighty five that the wildland fire
control program was initiated, and throughout history there had been
a long conversation of fire suppression versus fire control. When
(10:28):
we mentioned earlier, how that debate really may have cost
how we handled and how the environment had made more
problems because we didn't handle it so well. This is
part of this conversation though, suppression versus control. So initially
it was thought that complete fire suppression was the answer.
In fact, there was a debate again within the community
(10:48):
about whether or not complete suppression was the only answer
and that control fire could be of benefit. But after
the nineteen ten fire, which burned millions of acres and
killed at least ninety people, with majority of them being firefighters,
many of them moved to complete suppression. It was in
nineteen ten that they passed the largest budget to quote
(11:09):
institutionalize and professionalized fire suppression. And this is according to
the National Interagency Fire Center or the NFC, and it
wouldn't be until the seventies they would change it from
fire control suppression to fire management due to allowing for
more flexible process of quote appropriate suppression actions, which could
(11:30):
quote range from fully suppressing a fire to confining a
fire within a certain area under predetermined conditions. As they
figured out, the complete exclusion could be hindering the ecosystem's
natural process of regeneration. So it's kind of the debate
of like, it's not all bad even though it seems
very scary. Okay, yes we did. Now with all of that,
(11:51):
let's talk about the women. When did the women start
being a part of this conversation. Well, the first ever
noted women to be part of the wild and fire
crew were actually just known as Missus Durham and her friend,
Missus Kloppenberg. Right, So, Missus Durham was the wife of
one of the rangers of the California National Forest and
(12:12):
because of the war during that time, since there were
not enough men in the fire crews and they had
so many wildfires at the time, many of the crews
enlisted and trained wives of for service rangers to help,
and yeah, we researched a bit more. I tried to
get more information. I was like, Oh, who is this person,
what she's about? What was her first name? Couldn't find
(12:32):
a damn thing, Like, there was nothing other than their
married names in a pretty much a salute thank you
for helping out. I think that was pretty much like
the nineteen tens, like in war efforts, when women were like,
thanks for your help, go back home, right essentially, But
I also want to note because it was really interesting
trying to get all this information about historical first. We've
(12:54):
talked about this with Eaves and so many other episodes.
It wasn't all aligning, and some of the first were
much later, and there probably were other women that we
just don't know about or haven't been credited. I don't know,
because there was a first all women crew that was
noted to have started in the early nineteen forties. But
that's it. Like I couldn't find who they were, where
(13:15):
they were from, who they were with. Maybe I looked
at the wrong place. Maybe my search engine is really
tired of me, and like I can't answer this question
for you leave me alone, because I got some like
real like heavy blocks in trying to find some of
those answers. But there was a mention of a crew
of an all women's crew in the nineteen forties, but
I don't think they were actually paid well.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
As we continue to do more research, it was much
later that any other women would be recognized as being
part of the wildland firefighters and be integrated as paid staff.
In nineteen seventy one, we see one of the first
women to be hired, Caroline Kara Peters, but she was
quickly fired after that. That didn't stop her though. Here's
(14:11):
a quote about her history from BLM dot gov or
Bureau of Land Management dot gov. Quote. Car first went
to the press to make her case known to the public,
then contacted a lawyer, and finally made a direct appeal
to the BLM. Because of growing fire pressures at the time,
women had been filling positions such as working in dispatch
(14:32):
and packing parachutes. However, Kara was told that she couldn't
be a forest firefighter because it was not reasonable to
expect the Bureau to provide separate sleeping accommodations and bathroom
facilities for men and women on the fire lines. Eventually, however,
Cara was told that if she could assemble twelve suitable candidates,
half of a normal crew, they would begin a pilot
(14:55):
program to test whether women had the necessary strength and endurance.
She returned with twenty three women.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Right, so when we say she was fired quickly, we've
been four hours after she was hired. She was fired
like it was so quick, Like they were like, oh,
we made a mistake, You're gone. So she and the
other ladies were not only able to train and pass
without any trouble, but soon she and her team would
go on to work alongside with other firefighters at the
(15:22):
Wickersham Dome fire around Fairbanks, becoming one of the first
to do so in BLM history. Again, I want to
put this asterisk here. We're saying first very loosely, because
there could be others that we don't know about. Like
I said, there's still a lot of information. I'm like,
there's gotta be more that we just don't know, so
who knows. We might find more information later in time.
So some of this might sound like because we won't
(15:43):
say the first, that's just the asterisks that we're always
placing in because we know, history is ever growing and
we're finding out new things, so, you know, just so
we put that there and just because. Here's a quote
from a nineteen seventy one article from the crew chief
at the time. The women competed successfully with the men
and in fact were superior in many respects as far
(16:06):
as their physical capabilities. All were capable of handling the
job and did like he was thoroughly impressed, even though
varsity like na thinks.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
The ladies the ladiest. And soon after we had other
ladies taking a step further into the field by becoming
some of the first women to be on hot shot cruise.
Hot Shot crews are interagency hot shot crews are highly
trained wildland fire crews that are specialized workers trained to
(16:38):
lead and be on hand for all phases of a fire.
Here's a specific description from the Forest Services site. Interagency
hot Shot Crews hiics, commonly called hot shots or hot
shot crews, are highly trained, specialized wild and fire hand
crews that performed some of the most demanding and hazardous
tasks in wild and fire fighting. Their profession requires a
(17:01):
high level of physical fitness and the ability to demonstrate
a extensive knowledge of fire behavior with the ability to
develop and implement strategy and tactics on the most complex
incidents under extreme conditions, be a high aptitude for mitigating
a risk using exemplary situational awareness and outstanding communication skills,
(17:22):
and see excellent leadership characteristics at all levels. Their primary
mission is to provide a safe, professional, mobile, and highly
skilled type one hand crew status for all phases of
fire management and incident operations.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
So who are some of the first ladies to be
a part of this elite crew. Thanks to Amanda Monte
I hope I had said your name right, a former
fellow Hotshot crew member from Oregon, and her article for
Outside online dot com, we're able to talk about some
of these women and their works and how they are
able to break barrier or so thank you. And I
(17:57):
think she is actually actively on a podcast too, or
produces the podcast for Women and wild and Firefighters. But
she did this article in these interviews after she discovered photos,
all these old photos of hot Shot members that were women.
So she went on a search and found them and
spoke to a few of them. So let's start with
Dana Feldman. Feldman told Monthay that she didn't know what
(18:19):
she was getting into originally. Here's a bit from her interview.
To be honest, if someone told me what this whole
fire thing would require, I would have said, oh, I
can't do that, says Dana Feldman, who worked for Baker
River Hotshots in the late nineteen seventies and early nineteen eighties.
I had no idea what I was getting into, and
I wouldn't have done it if I had. But what
fire taught me over and over and over again was
(18:42):
how to throw myself into things and just start flapping
my wings somewhere along the line. And though she may
have gone in without really understanding it, she definitely excelled,
even earning a performance award in her first season, and
her work was so impressive her leaders even told her
he would never have a fire crew without a woman
in it. She even became the first woman hot shot
(19:03):
squad boss at Baker Rivers. She eventually left the field
to go on to become a psychotherapist, but she does
talk about her experience.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Then we have Sue Husari, who worked with Lawson Hotshot Crew.
She was the first woman for the crew and for
the state. Hears a little bit from her interview quote
Husori was hired to loss in a hot shot crew
in northern California in nineteen seventy six. She was the
first woman on the crew and one of the first
(19:31):
women on a hot shot crew in the state. I
still don't know why they decided to hire a woman.
It was very unusual, she says. Still, her experience on
Lawson was overwhelmingly positive. Husari says she wasn't treated differently
than her male colleagues, except that her coworkers often looked
out for her, particularly because she was just twenty one
(19:52):
when she was hired. While she was new to the
world of wildland fire, it didn't take long for Husari
to realize that she was well suited for the rigors
of hot shotting. My best attribute for firefighting was endurance,
and I think that's common for most women who do this,
she says, noting that she spent her youth in teenage
years backpacking in the Sirira, Nevada with her dad. I
(20:13):
wasn't a natural athlete, but I could hike, I could
carry heavy stuff, and I was familiar with the outdoors,
so I was good at it.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
And then we have a Kimberly Brandle, who was the
first woman to be hired with the Zigzag Hotshot crew,
and she was honest about some of the challenges she
faced during her time on the crew. From her interview quote,
Randal is refreshingly honest about her first year working as
a hot shot in a world that was still a
bit unsure about having women around. It was the attitude
of a lot of men that I didn't belong there,
(20:42):
and that I was never going to be a part
of the group because they didn't think I belonged there,
she said. A gradual cultural shift in the fourth Service
soon contributed to more women being hired to the crew.
Even still, it took years to change the perception that
women on hotshot crews were tokens or only there to
fill a quota. When I started in fire, fire crew
were like a pie cut into twenty pieces, and only
(21:03):
one piece of that pie was allocated for women. The
rest were allocated for men, Brittle says, but with her
own hard work and abilities, she was able to become
a part of the leadership and was able to help
and bring in more women, providing more equal space in
the field.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And we have Gina Popka, who became a hot shot
in nineteen eighty three, but would make history by becoming
the first woman superintendent of a hot shot crew in
nineteen ninety one from Monte Quote. After beginning her career
with the mount Hood National Forest based Zigzag hot Shots
in nineteen eighty three, Papka went on to become the
country's first permanent female hot shot superintendent, the highest position
(21:42):
on a hot shot crew, in nineteen ninety one. Only
eleven women have since held that position, compared to more
than seven hundred men since hot shot crews were first
established in the nineteen forties, meaning just over one percent
of superintendent positions on the country's one hundred and ten
hot shot crews up and filled by a woman. And
the article continues. Popka was known for being radically inclusive
(22:06):
in or hiring. She made a concerted effort to continue
Zigzag's long history of seeing the value and including women
and other marginalized people on the crew, long before such
practices were being utilized on other crews around the country.
Popka was regularly hiring four to six women to round
out her twenty person crew, and up to eight women
when there was an influx of good applicants. Even today,
(22:29):
it's rare to find hot shot crews with more than
two or three women. Women sought me because I was
the only female hot shot superintendent and we were known
to be a good crew, she says, for me, it
was just giving them an opportunity to see what they
could do with themselves. Women underestimate themselves, but I knew
they'd do well.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I feel like it ties in with a feld. Then
when she was like, if I know and I wouldn't
have done it.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Right, I would have thought I could exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
So with those first, I wanted to add one more.
And that's the first woman to become a smoke jumper.
And here's an explanation of smoke jumpers from the NIFC.
Smoke Jumpers are unique because of the way they reach
the fire line. They parachute from an airplane three thousand
feet above the ground. When wildfires a night in remote
and isolated locations, smoke jumpers are able to reach them
(23:18):
fast because they can parachute to wildfires when there are
no roads or trails nearby and get to work long
before anyone could hike or drive to the fire. Smoke
Jumping is a physically and mentally demanding line of work
that requires a broad knowledge of firefighting. Smoke Jumpers are
also heavily involved in prescribed fire management and hazardous fuels
reduction efforts. Smoke Jumpers are experienced wildland firefighters with expertise
(23:42):
in initial attack firefighting and work with a variety of aircrafts.
And who is this incredible woman who made history. We're
talking about Dan Shulman. Schulman not only had to work
to meet the industry standard at the time, but had
to push through the sexism within the industry. So here's
a quote from the Nationalfores dot org. The first woman
(24:03):
smoke jumper, Dianne Shulman, was hired in nineteen seventy nine,
but despite meeting the established physical fitness standards, was washed
from the program for being a few pounds under the
required weight. This was despite it being known that there
was several underweight men on other bases. After filing an
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission complaint supported by one of those
(24:23):
underweight men, Deane was allowed to try again, so long
as she weighed at least one hundred and thirty pounds
on the first day of her appointment. This requirement has
since been lowered to one hundred and twenty pounds, but
the physical fitness standards, including one hundred and ten pounds
pack test, remained the same. In nineteen eighty one, she
completed Rookie Cheney and jumped at the McCall, Idaho smoke
(24:44):
Jumper Base for five years. And here's a bit more
of her story from an interview she did with Bakersfield's Californian.
In nineteen eighty one, she became a smoke jumper at
McCall Smoke Jumper Base in Idaho. The process of proving
herself began yet again, but her intelligence, courage, stamina, strength
and knowledge of firefighting won the day. By my fourth season,
(25:05):
them smoke jumpers were bragging that they had the first
woman smoke jumper. Schulmann remembered, not only has she earned
her place as a smoke jumper, she earned the respect
of her fellow jumpers. So within the article, she spoke
about the harassment she faced being one of two women
that was a part of the hot shot crew and
even more so with her fighting to become a smoke jumper.
(25:26):
But she also talked about how she was able to
love the time she had as a smoke jumper.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Here's some more from her interview quote. In spite of it,
all the pornographic calendars, the juvenile pranks, and the institutional
barriers to women, working as a smoke jumper for five
seasons was an amazing experience, Shulman said. Underneath all this harassment,
I knew they respected me because I could keep up,
Shulman told her wrapped audience. I also knew they loved
(25:51):
me in a brotherly way. I felt that very deeply.
Otherwise I couldn't have been on that crew. It was
kind of magical to be in such good physical shape
and keeping up with them. She remembered, we got to
travel all over to beautiful wilderness areas. The camaraderie of
working forty eight hours straight on a fire, Shulman said,
you developed all that stuff that happens when groups of
(26:12):
people work in adverse situations together.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So there's obviously other departments, I guess, or specialties within
the wildland firefighters, inclanding, repelling, and then like fuel crew
and all of that, and we didn't get into every
single one of them. Apparently, it is known that the
smoke jumpers get like the most romantic size, because you know,
they're jumping out of an airplane with water out of
the time, so they get they get some movies about them.
(26:37):
I think maybe an actual movie about Shulman, or at
least some references to her. I feel like, any this
would be something you would want to do once upon
a time. Yeah, you would have been like, yeah, I
can do this, let me try this. Of course, these
are just a few of the amazing women who are
breaking down the walls within the industry. But with that,
(26:58):
where are we today? Though we do see more women
in the field, it is still significantly low. So here's
a quote from a twenty twenty National Geographic article titled
the Women Battling Wildfires and Breaking Barriers in the American Wilderness.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Now more than ten thousand strong. They gather each summer,
mostly in the Western States, two defend national forests and
public lands. In the past, women in this male dominated
field have faced implicit biases, sexism, and powerful gatekeepers who
didn't make them welcome. Today, women still only make up
twelve percent of wild and firefighters. So some more recent numbers, though,
(27:34):
have shown them that it has gone up to almost
thirteen percent. I think it kind of varies. I saw
one it says that like twelve point seven percent so E,
but the atmosphere hasn't seemed to have been very welcoming
even now, and many have faced some issues after starting
in the field. Here's a quote from a recent Force
(27:54):
Services article. Quote. A twenty nineteen survey by the Pacific
Northwest Recent Station found seventy five percent of female wildland
firefighters felt out of place due to their gender. The
survey also revealed that one third of the employee surveyed
believe that personal characteristics such as race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age,
(28:17):
disability status, and family caregiver status had hindered their career
advancement in wildland.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Fire, and with that, the field has also had to
face their own me too movement. The issues playing the
industry became known within the field in twenty eighteen and
were addressed by the vice president of the Association for
(28:45):
Fire Ecology at the time. Here's a quote that you
can find under for Services quote. The resignation of United
States Forest Service Chief Tony Took in March twenty eighteen
under allegations of sexual misconduct have highlighted the new need
for our wildfire communities to build our collective capacity to
confront and address these controversial topics. Sexual harassment, sexual misconduct,
(29:09):
and gender discrimination is known to be widespread in many
government agencies, including the US Forest Service, National Park Service,
and US military. The United States is not alone in
facing these issues. Canada and Australia report similar trends, and
the report continues with some statistics. In twenty fifteen, an
(29:29):
af survey with almost three hundred and fifty respondents revealed
that thirty two percent reported observing incidents of sexual harassment
in the workplace and twenty four percent experienced it directly.
Fifty four percent reported observing gender discrimination of others in
the workplace and forty four percent reported experiencing it. Sixty
four percent of respondents who experienced sexual harassment and sixty
(29:52):
percent who experienced gender discrimination did not report it right.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
And again this is because a big scannal happened when
the lead chief. So that's just a reminder. But in
twenty eighteen, PBS did a report with women coming forward
to about the level of harassment insults that they had
experienced within the four services. Three of the women interviewed
stated that had been raped by fellow employees as well.
(30:17):
And of course these allegations aren't you and five. In
twenty fourteen, seven women wildland firefighters filed the complaint against
the Department of Agriculture quote, alleging that they suffered job discrimination, harassment,
and sexual abuse at the hands of male coworkers, and
that top agency officials failed to stop it. And this
was according to Wildfire Today dot com and Yeah. In
(30:37):
that same article, it says September twenty second, twenty sixteen,
the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform her testimony
from two employees about harassment and the NPS and the USFS.
Kelly Martin, fire management officer at Yosemite National Park, described
quote a hostile work environment in Yosemite where dozens of
individuals have come forward with personal statements of demoralizing behavior,
(31:00):
to include acts of bullying, gender biases, and favoritism. She
also described sexual harassment in previous jobs where she worked
for the USFS. But again, these are the only issues.
What about the intersectional communities within this field. Here's some
information from a research paper titled gender, sexual orientation, and
ethnicity and socioeconomic factors influence how wildland firefighters communicate their
(31:25):
work experiences. Approximately eighty three point six percent of wildland
firefighters are white, seventy eight point seven percent are male,
and ninety three point five percent identify as straight. The
numbers are alone are fairly discouraging, but within this research, they
also found that the marginalized communities were at much greater
risks mentally and physically. So here's some disturbing details within
(31:46):
the research. Very limited research exists that contextualizes wildland firefighters,
but work on female firefighters in Canada shows that other
ring through discrimination and hostility played a key role in
women's experiences in the career. Likewise, few studies directly examined
the ways in which these stressors may differentially impact minority
(32:08):
and modulize wildland firefighters. Those that do report trends in
experiences rather than context. A quantitative survey of wildland firefighters
experiences observed significantly higher rates of reported injury in bipock
wildland firefighters than wildland firefighters. Similarly, they found occupational fatality
for black workers was one point three to one point
(32:31):
five times higher than that of white workers, and they
also found that black women were more likely to be
injured than white women while working in agricultural settings.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And of course, the mental health issues and crises that
happen with this field are substantial. Unfortunately, the data seems
to be lacking. As you can tell, some research is
being conducted, but it does seem that a lot warnings
to be done. Here's a bit from psychiatryonline dot org
about whole thing quote. A national survey of all types
(33:03):
of firefighters conducted several years back found that fifty five
percent of firefighters reported a history of suicidal behavior, compared
with thirty two percent of non wildlane firefighters, according to
a report by Ian H. Stanley and Moore in the
August twenty eighteen Psychiatry Research, One potential explanation was that
wildland firefighters reported less sense of belongingness, such as having
(33:28):
few friends and feeling disconnected from other people. However, out
of more than one one hundred respondents, only twenty were
wildland firefighters, the rest being structural firefighters.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Right and they continue. Recently, dedicated researchers, many with tie
to the wildland firefighter community, have begun to bring in
a more quantitative data on a variety of health and
wellness topics. Patricia O'Brien, PhD, a prior wildland firefighter who
went on to pursue a psychology degree, surveyed over twenty
six hundred current, former and retired wildline firefighters as part
(34:01):
of her dissertation. Respondents filled out a variety of mental
health screening measures and answered other questions about their experiences.
She presented her findings in twenty twenty one at the
Wildfire sixth Annual Human Dimensions Conference, and they were alarming.
Seventeen percent of wildland firefighters reported symptoms consistent with diagnosis
of depression and thirteen percent reported symptoms consistent with generalized anxiety,
(34:24):
and both about two to three times higher than the
general populations. The prevalence of probable post traumatic stress disorder
was nearly fourteen percent, which is four times the rate
in the general population. Further, less than half of the
respondents who had symptoms consistent with PTSD reported that they
had been clinically diagnosed with the disorder, highlighting that this
condition remains underdetected, unrecognized, and undertreated in a clearly at
(34:48):
risk group. More than half of the respondents reported binstrinking
at least once in the past month, while twenty two
percent reported heavy drinking, and not surprisingly, cigarette use was
rare in this grow, but nearly thirty seven percent use
smokeless tobacco products.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Unfortunately, with the relatively newer information, there doesn't seem to
be a whole lot of resources for wildland firefighters. The
conversation of whether or not the government should be providing
services along the lines of VA healthcare has been ongoing,
but because of the structure of the field, it seems
part of confusion is who has authority over which unit.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Right, I kind of just spreads in different areas where
who is under what governmental authority, So they are not
unifying in how they should be treated or even recognizing
the fight that they need to be treated. I think
also part of the conversation, and I've seen this a
lot when it comes to seasonal workers, even though it's seasonal,
because of the way this goes about and not necessarily
(35:50):
because it's like it's a sale. Is it a Christmas sell?
You know, like you know what I mean that. I
think they really do see this as less hectic, but
the amount of pressure I'm sure that they go through
is intense just in general firefighters, but because the firefighters
are ongoing and often see as an emergency response continuously,
(36:10):
I'm wondering if that's like they're seen as civil servants,
even though I would assume the four services are federal level.
But yet they still haven't gotten to the point they're like,
oh yeah, maybe we should provide some services other than
when they get hurt hurt ah. So the question is
has the culture really changed. The numbers seem like they're
kind of rising again, not significantly, zero point seven percent
(36:34):
looked like more attention has been brought about the need
for diversity, but again, it doesn't seem to be fast
in this progression. However, there have been several initiatives that
have been implemented in order to bring some equal opportunities.
One of the programs out there is including the California
Conservation Corps or the CCC, and here's some information from
(36:55):
nineteenth news dot org. The California Conservation Corps or CCC
a paid conservation work development program for their residents ages
eighteen to twenty five. Unlike the Civilian Conservation Corps, a
program started under President Franklin D. Roosevelt aimed at putting
men to work in the National Parts and Force. The
California version has been co ed since its launch in
(37:18):
nineteen seventy six. However, women make up only twenty five
percent of the CORE members, depending on which of the
twenty four centers they are located at. The work CCC
members do range from apprenticeships in conservation, habit restoration, and
energy to emergency management assistance in fires, floods, and mudslides.
Part of the CCC's mandate is to recruit from low
(37:40):
income or otherwise marginalized population, providing a pathway into good jobs.
The CORE requires that participants who don't have a high
school diploma participate in the education program that allows members
to take classes alongside their cores work to earn one.
So even though this is not the greatest program, at
least as co ed and I did see other organizations
(38:03):
do pull from that program to put into their own internship.
So it could be a good opportunity. Oh that could
always be better, but at least they look at some
of the marginalized communities.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yes, there are also programs like Women in Wildland Fire,
which even hosts events. Here's some information from their site.
We are current and former wildline firefighters who have come
together to share the experiences of Women in Fire. We
aim to explore the challenges faced, highlight the progress made,
and build a community to support and assist women and
(38:35):
other underrepresented groups in this field, right.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
And not only do they put on interesting events that
the one just happened in April where they had different
speakers come through, but they also have guides on how
to apply for jobs and even give you a list
of jobs that are opened and help you with like
employment guides, So that's good. And they have a great
list of resources and organizations to look into for more
help or information, so they've got some access. So they
(39:00):
also have like some podcasts that they recommend about women
in wildland fire fighting, so a lot of information from them,
and there's several more in different states have started doing
different programs as well. Obviously when we're talking about states,
we're talking more about the Western area. I saw some
for Colorado, obviously, California and Washington, which is some of
(39:22):
the big stuff that is happening because we are in
the season. Unfortunately, and as we read in that New
York Times article, it has already begun. We know wildland
fire has been raising due to a dude lighting his
car on fire and just wanting to set something on fire.
And this has been a conversation of a lot of
(39:42):
concerns about again, what is happening with the environment, what
is the causes? How do we stop it? The suppression conversation,
the control burning conversation is a lot, but it's good
to know that there are some good people out there
doing what they can, risking their lives for us.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
So thank you, yes, yes, thank you and listeners. If
you have any experience with this, whether it's you or
someone you know, if you have any resources, anything we
should check out, please let us know. You can email
U at stuffan your mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter I'm mom Stuff podcast,
(40:17):
or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You.
We're on YouTube. We have a tea public store. Now
we have a book you can get wherever you get
your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,
our executive pruser Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you,
and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I've Never Told
You is protective. iHeartRadio for more podcasts, or my heart Radio.
You can check out the iHeart Radio at Apple Podcasts
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Anny Ann Smitha. I'm welcome to stuff.
I never told you a picture of Iheartradia, and today
we are bringing back a classic on women and wildland
firefighting because here in Georgia we've actually had some wildfires
(00:28):
and a friend of mine was impacted by it, not
directly but indirectly, and you know, there was all the
warnings of don't don't start any fires outside, or just
be really careful, the conditions are really bad. And so
I just got me thinking about this episode that we
(00:49):
did and how we missed out on the opportunity Eves
offered to connect us with a woman who had worked
in this field. We should follow up.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I think we need to follow up.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, yes, but in the meantime, please enjoy this classic episode.
Hey this and Samantha rocome stuff. I never told your
prediction of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
And we're talking about something that kind of had already
been hitd on. So past hosts Kristen and Caroline did
a great episode in two thousand and nine on women
in firefighting, but we thought we would take some time
to talk about the women within the wildland firefighting community,
a very specific group of people. It is a specific
field that has become a huge need unfortunately, especially as
(01:48):
of late. Content warning straight up, obviously we're going to
talk about fires, land damage, all of that. There's mention
of suicide, of mental health issues as well as sexual harassment.
So go ahead, We're not getting too much into it.
We're just getting into some statistics as.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We always do.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
So there's a lot happening around the world, and unfortunately,
some of these things are disasters that are destroying lands,
property and the environment overall. So, like I said, Chigoandi
about all these incidents, but we also mentioned fire and arson,
death and natural disasters. So with that, the wildland fire
fighting field has been around for quite some time now,
(02:27):
like most of history around the world. Even with its existence,
it took way way longer for women to be even
a part of this field at all. But before we
get into all of that, we're going to look at
statistics and facts around wildland fires in general. Again, it's a.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Lot, yeah, So let's start with the definition from our
world and data dot org quote. A wildfire is an
uncontrolled burn of vegetation, which includes the burning of forest,
shrublands and grasslands, savannahs, and crop plans. Wildfires can be
caused by human activity such as arson, unattended fires, or
the loss of control of planned burns, and natural causes
(03:09):
such as lightning. The amount of wildfires in recent years
have substantially increased. According to the twenty twenty three World
Resources Institute quote, the latest data on forest fires confirms
what we've long feared. Forest fires are becoming more widespread,
burning nearly twice as much tree copper today as they
did twenty years ago. Using data from a recent study
(03:29):
by researchers at the University of Maryland, we calculated that
forest fires now result in three million more hectors of
tree cover loss per year compared to two thousand and one,
an area roughly the size of Belgium, and accounted for
more than one quarter of all tree cover loss over
the past twenty years.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Right and article continues. Twenty twenty one was one of
the worst years for forest fires since the turn of
the century, causing an alarming nine point three million hectares
of tree cover loss globally, over one third of all
tree cover loss that occurred that year, though down from
the previous year. Over six point six million hectares of
tree cover was lost to force fires in twenty twenty two,
(04:09):
similar to other years over the past decades, and in
twenty twenty three, the world has already seen heightened fire activity,
including record breaking burns across Canada and catastrophic fires in Hawaii,
which we all remember so. In fact, in a recent
article written by reporter Claire Moses for The New York Times,
at least four point five million acres have been burned
(04:30):
in North America this year already. Here's a quote from
her article. So far this year, over twenty eight thousand
wildfires have burned more than four point five million acres
in the United States, according to the National Interagency Fire Center,
US fire activity for twenty twenty four is above the
average for the last decade, agency data shows, and the
resulting destruction has already mounted to more than that burned
(04:53):
in all of twenty three three, and with the expected
peak of this year's fire season still at least a
month or more away. X say that fires are burning
with a level of intensity rarely seen at this point
in the summer, and yet this article was written in August.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Y'all, Typically, wildfire season begins in June or July and
continues on into mid fall, but some are saying that
timeline will extend in part due to climate change. The
article continues saying, quote experts have grown concerned about the
sheer number of fires burning in Western States this early
in the season. As of Saturday, there were eighty nine
(05:28):
large active fires according to the NIFC, most of them
in the Pacific Northwest in California.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
The calls of wildfires vary greatly, but some of the
causes are as follows according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs,
including lightning, burning off and outcrop or underground coal seam,
campfire or bonfire, smoking like cigarettes and matches, fire use
such as debris burning or burning of ditches and fields,
arson or illegal burning equipment such as vehicles and aircrafts,
(05:58):
railroads apparently part of that as well, kids or miners
playing with fire or fireworks, and others and others are
like It can uncover so many, including birth announcements, our
gender reveals as we remember.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Of course, as we said earlier, the current state of
climate change has made the wildfire situation much more severe
and concerning. Here's some information from the Environmental Defense Fund. Quote.
Climate change can make environments more susceptible to burning, increasing
severe heat and drought due to climate change can fuel wildfires.
Hotter temperatures evaporate more moisture from soil and vegetation, drying
(06:36):
out trees, shrubs, and grasses, and turning leaf litter and
fallen branches into kindling. In times of drought, trees that
are stressed by a lack of water may also become
more vulnerable to insects and diseases that can weaken or
kill them, creating more fuel for fires. And in the
western US, snowpacks are shrinking and melting earlier in the year,
(06:56):
which makes forest more flammable by reducing the water available
for vegetation. Fire is a natural phenomenon that serves important
ecological purposes, clearing dead and disease plants from some forest,
for example, and even helping some plants reproduce. But a
rapidly warming planet, along with the history of short sighted
forest management practices and land use decisions that push development
(07:18):
into the wilderness, is contributing to more destructive wildfires.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Right and some more information from the World Resource Institute
quote climate change is one of the major drivers of
increasing fire activities. Extreme heat waves are already five times
more likely today than they wore one hundred and fifty
years ago and are expected to become even more frequent
as a planet continues to warm. Hotter temperatures dry out
the landscape and help create the perfect environment for large,
(07:44):
more frequent forest fires. This in turn leads to higher
emissions from forest fires, further exacerbating climate change and contributing
to more fires as part of a fire climate feedback loop. Yeah,
so in this we were having this hile conversation about
the fact that this is a whole cycle that's causing
more and more chaos. We've talked about this before about
(08:07):
the cause and effects of some things, and force fires
is right in the middle of that. So there's different
research of methods for trying to bring a solution to
the problem of the increased wildfires, and much of that
is being done through actual wildland firefighters.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yes, for some context. Here are some of the differences
between wildland firefighters versus structural firefighters from palatianews dot com.
The training and education of each are different. Quote. The
first notable difference between structure and wildland firefighting is their
disparate training and education methods. While both groups must receive
(08:42):
extensive training, the biggest difference is in the techniques required
to deal with hazardous fires, and their requirements are worlds apart.
For example, a wildland firefighter must have a post secondary education,
past various written and physical tests, have a red card
certification that will allows them to perform duties as a
wildline firefighter, and have experience working in rough terrain. On
(09:06):
the other hand, structural firefighters must go through various written
and physical tests, pass several interviews, and have Emergency Medical
Technician AMT certification.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Right, So, equipment and a PPE are also different. For
wildlind firefighters, items like line gear, chainsaws, campus and GPS
are a must, while items like self containing breeding apparatus,
scuba and access are used for structural firefighters. So when
we talk about structural firefighters, we're talking about, you know, firefighters.
(09:37):
That's what we regularly think the ones on the calendar.
Just kidding. It's also noted that being on duty for
structural firefighters is all year long, while for most wildlin
firefighters it is seasonal, as well as the fact that
containing a wildfire versus a structural fire uses very different methods,
such as wildlind fire fighters having to create quote fire
(09:59):
lines by cutting down trees and digging up grass in
the path of the fire to stop it from spreading.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
And also we're going to talk about some of the
specialized units within wildland firefighters which make them different as well. Okay,
now we got that down. Let's talk about the history
of wildland firefighters for just a minute. Bear with us.
It was an eighteen eighty five that the wildland fire
control program was initiated, and throughout history there had been
a long conversation of fire suppression versus fire control. When
(10:28):
we mentioned earlier, how that debate really may have cost
how we handled and how the environment had made more
problems because we didn't handle it so well. This is
part of this conversation though, suppression versus control. So initially
it was thought that complete fire suppression was the answer.
In fact, there was a debate again within the community
(10:48):
about whether or not complete suppression was the only answer
and that control fire could be of benefit. But after
the nineteen ten fire, which burned millions of acres and
killed at least ninety people, with majority of them being firefighters,
many of them moved to complete suppression. It was in
nineteen ten that they passed the largest budget to quote
(11:09):
institutionalize and professionalized fire suppression. And this is according to
the National Interagency Fire Center or the NFC, and it
wouldn't be until the seventies they would change it from
fire control suppression to fire management due to allowing for
more flexible process of quote appropriate suppression actions, which could
(11:30):
quote range from fully suppressing a fire to confining a
fire within a certain area under predetermined conditions. As they
figured out, the complete exclusion could be hindering the ecosystem's
natural process of regeneration. So it's kind of the debate
of like, it's not all bad even though it seems
very scary. Okay, yes we did. Now with all of that,
(11:51):
let's talk about the women. When did the women start
being a part of this conversation. Well, the first ever
noted women to be part of the wild and fire
crew were actually just known as Missus Durham and her friend,
Missus Kloppenberg. Right, So, Missus Durham was the wife of
one of the rangers of the California National Forest and
(12:12):
because of the war during that time, since there were
not enough men in the fire crews and they had
so many wildfires at the time, many of the crews
enlisted and trained wives of for service rangers to help,
and yeah, we researched a bit more. I tried to
get more information. I was like, Oh, who is this person,
what she's about? What was her first name? Couldn't find
(12:32):
a damn thing, Like, there was nothing other than their
married names in a pretty much a salute thank you
for helping out. I think that was pretty much like
the nineteen tens, like in war efforts, when women were like,
thanks for your help, go back home, right essentially, But
I also want to note because it was really interesting
trying to get all this information about historical first. We've
(12:54):
talked about this with Eaves and so many other episodes.
It wasn't all aligning, and some of the first were
much later, and there probably were other women that we
just don't know about or haven't been credited. I don't know,
because there was a first all women crew that was
noted to have started in the early nineteen forties. But
that's it. Like I couldn't find who they were, where
(13:15):
they were from, who they were with. Maybe I looked
at the wrong place. Maybe my search engine is really
tired of me, and like I can't answer this question
for you leave me alone, because I got some like
real like heavy blocks in trying to find some of
those answers. But there was a mention of a crew
of an all women's crew in the nineteen forties, but
I don't think they were actually paid well.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
As we continue to do more research, it was much
later that any other women would be recognized as being
part of the wildland firefighters and be integrated as paid staff.
In nineteen seventy one, we see one of the first
women to be hired, Caroline Kara Peters, but she was
quickly fired after that. That didn't stop her though. Here's
(14:11):
a quote about her history from BLM dot gov or
Bureau of Land Management dot gov. Quote. Car first went
to the press to make her case known to the public,
then contacted a lawyer, and finally made a direct appeal
to the BLM. Because of growing fire pressures at the time,
women had been filling positions such as working in dispatch
(14:32):
and packing parachutes. However, Kara was told that she couldn't
be a forest firefighter because it was not reasonable to
expect the Bureau to provide separate sleeping accommodations and bathroom
facilities for men and women on the fire lines. Eventually, however,
Cara was told that if she could assemble twelve suitable candidates,
half of a normal crew, they would begin a pilot
(14:55):
program to test whether women had the necessary strength and endurance.
She returned with twenty three women.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Right, so when we say she was fired quickly, we've
been four hours after she was hired. She was fired
like it was so quick, Like they were like, oh,
we made a mistake, You're gone. So she and the
other ladies were not only able to train and pass
without any trouble, but soon she and her team would
go on to work alongside with other firefighters at the
(15:22):
Wickersham Dome fire around Fairbanks, becoming one of the first
to do so in BLM history. Again, I want to
put this asterisk here. We're saying first very loosely, because
there could be others that we don't know about. Like
I said, there's still a lot of information. I'm like,
there's gotta be more that we just don't know, so
who knows. We might find more information later in time.
So some of this might sound like because we won't
(15:43):
say the first, that's just the asterisks that we're always
placing in because we know, history is ever growing and
we're finding out new things, so, you know, just so
we put that there and just because. Here's a quote
from a nineteen seventy one article from the crew chief
at the time. The women competed successfully with the men
and in fact were superior in many respects as far
(16:06):
as their physical capabilities. All were capable of handling the
job and did like he was thoroughly impressed, even though
varsity like na thinks.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
The ladies the ladiest. And soon after we had other
ladies taking a step further into the field by becoming
some of the first women to be on hot shot cruise.
Hot Shot crews are interagency hot shot crews are highly
trained wildland fire crews that are specialized workers trained to
(16:38):
lead and be on hand for all phases of a fire.
Here's a specific description from the Forest Services site. Interagency
hot Shot Crews hiics, commonly called hot shots or hot
shot crews, are highly trained, specialized wild and fire hand
crews that performed some of the most demanding and hazardous
tasks in wild and fire fighting. Their profession requires a
(17:01):
high level of physical fitness and the ability to demonstrate
a extensive knowledge of fire behavior with the ability to
develop and implement strategy and tactics on the most complex
incidents under extreme conditions, be a high aptitude for mitigating
a risk using exemplary situational awareness and outstanding communication skills,
(17:22):
and see excellent leadership characteristics at all levels. Their primary
mission is to provide a safe, professional, mobile, and highly
skilled type one hand crew status for all phases of
fire management and incident operations.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
So who are some of the first ladies to be
a part of this elite crew. Thanks to Amanda Monte
I hope I had said your name right, a former
fellow Hotshot crew member from Oregon, and her article for
Outside online dot com, we're able to talk about some
of these women and their works and how they are
able to break barrier or so thank you. And I
(17:57):
think she is actually actively on a podcast too, or
produces the podcast for Women and wild and Firefighters. But
she did this article in these interviews after she discovered photos,
all these old photos of hot Shot members that were women.
So she went on a search and found them and
spoke to a few of them. So let's start with
Dana Feldman. Feldman told Monthay that she didn't know what
(18:19):
she was getting into originally. Here's a bit from her interview.
To be honest, if someone told me what this whole
fire thing would require, I would have said, oh, I
can't do that, says Dana Feldman, who worked for Baker
River Hotshots in the late nineteen seventies and early nineteen eighties.
I had no idea what I was getting into, and
I wouldn't have done it if I had. But what
fire taught me over and over and over again was
(18:42):
how to throw myself into things and just start flapping
my wings somewhere along the line. And though she may
have gone in without really understanding it, she definitely excelled,
even earning a performance award in her first season, and
her work was so impressive her leaders even told her
he would never have a fire crew without a woman
in it. She even became the first woman hot shot
(19:03):
squad boss at Baker Rivers. She eventually left the field
to go on to become a psychotherapist, but she does
talk about her experience.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Then we have Sue Husari, who worked with Lawson Hotshot Crew.
She was the first woman for the crew and for
the state. Hears a little bit from her interview quote
Husori was hired to loss in a hot shot crew
in northern California in nineteen seventy six. She was the
first woman on the crew and one of the first
(19:31):
women on a hot shot crew in the state. I
still don't know why they decided to hire a woman.
It was very unusual, she says. Still, her experience on
Lawson was overwhelmingly positive. Husari says she wasn't treated differently
than her male colleagues, except that her coworkers often looked
out for her, particularly because she was just twenty one
(19:52):
when she was hired. While she was new to the
world of wildland fire, it didn't take long for Husari
to realize that she was well suited for the rigors
of hot shotting. My best attribute for firefighting was endurance,
and I think that's common for most women who do this,
she says, noting that she spent her youth in teenage
years backpacking in the Sirira, Nevada with her dad. I
(20:13):
wasn't a natural athlete, but I could hike, I could
carry heavy stuff, and I was familiar with the outdoors,
so I was good at it.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
And then we have a Kimberly Brandle, who was the
first woman to be hired with the Zigzag Hotshot crew,
and she was honest about some of the challenges she
faced during her time on the crew. From her interview quote,
Randal is refreshingly honest about her first year working as
a hot shot in a world that was still a
bit unsure about having women around. It was the attitude
of a lot of men that I didn't belong there,
(20:42):
and that I was never going to be a part
of the group because they didn't think I belonged there,
she said. A gradual cultural shift in the fourth Service
soon contributed to more women being hired to the crew.
Even still, it took years to change the perception that
women on hotshot crews were tokens or only there to
fill a quota. When I started in fire, fire crew
were like a pie cut into twenty pieces, and only
(21:03):
one piece of that pie was allocated for women. The
rest were allocated for men, Brittle says, but with her
own hard work and abilities, she was able to become
a part of the leadership and was able to help
and bring in more women, providing more equal space in
the field.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And we have Gina Popka, who became a hot shot
in nineteen eighty three, but would make history by becoming
the first woman superintendent of a hot shot crew in
nineteen ninety one from Monte Quote. After beginning her career
with the mount Hood National Forest based Zigzag hot Shots
in nineteen eighty three, Papka went on to become the
country's first permanent female hot shot superintendent, the highest position
(21:42):
on a hot shot crew, in nineteen ninety one. Only
eleven women have since held that position, compared to more
than seven hundred men since hot shot crews were first
established in the nineteen forties, meaning just over one percent
of superintendent positions on the country's one hundred and ten
hot shot crews up and filled by a woman. And
the article continues. Popka was known for being radically inclusive
(22:06):
in or hiring. She made a concerted effort to continue
Zigzag's long history of seeing the value and including women
and other marginalized people on the crew, long before such
practices were being utilized on other crews around the country.
Popka was regularly hiring four to six women to round
out her twenty person crew, and up to eight women
when there was an influx of good applicants. Even today,
(22:29):
it's rare to find hot shot crews with more than
two or three women. Women sought me because I was
the only female hot shot superintendent and we were known
to be a good crew, she says, for me, it
was just giving them an opportunity to see what they
could do with themselves. Women underestimate themselves, but I knew
they'd do well.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I feel like it ties in with a feld. Then
when she was like, if I know and I wouldn't
have done it.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Right, I would have thought I could exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
So with those first, I wanted to add one more.
And that's the first woman to become a smoke jumper.
And here's an explanation of smoke jumpers from the NIFC.
Smoke Jumpers are unique because of the way they reach
the fire line. They parachute from an airplane three thousand
feet above the ground. When wildfires a night in remote
and isolated locations, smoke jumpers are able to reach them
(23:18):
fast because they can parachute to wildfires when there are
no roads or trails nearby and get to work long
before anyone could hike or drive to the fire. Smoke
Jumping is a physically and mentally demanding line of work
that requires a broad knowledge of firefighting. Smoke Jumpers are
also heavily involved in prescribed fire management and hazardous fuels
reduction efforts. Smoke Jumpers are experienced wildland firefighters with expertise
(23:42):
in initial attack firefighting and work with a variety of aircrafts.
And who is this incredible woman who made history. We're
talking about Dan Shulman. Schulman not only had to work
to meet the industry standard at the time, but had
to push through the sexism within the industry. So here's
a quote from the Nationalfores dot org. The first woman
(24:03):
smoke jumper, Dianne Shulman, was hired in nineteen seventy nine,
but despite meeting the established physical fitness standards, was washed
from the program for being a few pounds under the
required weight. This was despite it being known that there
was several underweight men on other bases. After filing an
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission complaint supported by one of those
(24:23):
underweight men, Deane was allowed to try again, so long
as she weighed at least one hundred and thirty pounds
on the first day of her appointment. This requirement has
since been lowered to one hundred and twenty pounds, but
the physical fitness standards, including one hundred and ten pounds
pack test, remained the same. In nineteen eighty one, she
completed Rookie Cheney and jumped at the McCall, Idaho smoke
(24:44):
Jumper Base for five years. And here's a bit more
of her story from an interview she did with Bakersfield's Californian.
In nineteen eighty one, she became a smoke jumper at
McCall Smoke Jumper Base in Idaho. The process of proving
herself began yet again, but her intelligence, courage, stamina, strength
and knowledge of firefighting won the day. By my fourth season,
(25:05):
them smoke jumpers were bragging that they had the first
woman smoke jumper. Schulmann remembered, not only has she earned
her place as a smoke jumper, she earned the respect
of her fellow jumpers. So within the article, she spoke
about the harassment she faced being one of two women
that was a part of the hot shot crew and
even more so with her fighting to become a smoke jumper.
(25:26):
But she also talked about how she was able to
love the time she had as a smoke jumper.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Here's some more from her interview quote. In spite of it,
all the pornographic calendars, the juvenile pranks, and the institutional
barriers to women, working as a smoke jumper for five
seasons was an amazing experience, Shulman said. Underneath all this harassment,
I knew they respected me because I could keep up,
Shulman told her wrapped audience. I also knew they loved
(25:51):
me in a brotherly way. I felt that very deeply.
Otherwise I couldn't have been on that crew. It was
kind of magical to be in such good physical shape
and keeping up with them. She remembered, we got to
travel all over to beautiful wilderness areas. The camaraderie of
working forty eight hours straight on a fire, Shulman said,
you developed all that stuff that happens when groups of
(26:12):
people work in adverse situations together.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So there's obviously other departments, I guess, or specialties within
the wildland firefighters, inclanding, repelling, and then like fuel crew
and all of that, and we didn't get into every
single one of them. Apparently, it is known that the
smoke jumpers get like the most romantic size, because you know,
they're jumping out of an airplane with water out of
the time, so they get they get some movies about them.
(26:37):
I think maybe an actual movie about Shulman, or at
least some references to her. I feel like, any this
would be something you would want to do once upon
a time. Yeah, you would have been like, yeah, I
can do this, let me try this. Of course, these
are just a few of the amazing women who are
breaking down the walls within the industry. But with that,
(26:58):
where are we today? Though we do see more women
in the field, it is still significantly low. So here's
a quote from a twenty twenty National Geographic article titled
the Women Battling Wildfires and Breaking Barriers in the American Wilderness.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Quote.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Now more than ten thousand strong. They gather each summer,
mostly in the Western States, two defend national forests and
public lands. In the past, women in this male dominated
field have faced implicit biases, sexism, and powerful gatekeepers who
didn't make them welcome. Today, women still only make up
twelve percent of wild and firefighters. So some more recent numbers, though,
(27:34):
have shown them that it has gone up to almost
thirteen percent. I think it kind of varies. I saw
one it says that like twelve point seven percent so E,
but the atmosphere hasn't seemed to have been very welcoming
even now, and many have faced some issues after starting
in the field. Here's a quote from a recent Force
(27:54):
Services article. Quote. A twenty nineteen survey by the Pacific
Northwest Recent Station found seventy five percent of female wildland
firefighters felt out of place due to their gender. The
survey also revealed that one third of the employee surveyed
believe that personal characteristics such as race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age,
(28:17):
disability status, and family caregiver status had hindered their career
advancement in wildland.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Fire, and with that, the field has also had to
face their own me too movement. The issues playing the
industry became known within the field in twenty eighteen and
were addressed by the vice president of the Association for
(28:45):
Fire Ecology at the time. Here's a quote that you
can find under for Services quote. The resignation of United
States Forest Service Chief Tony Took in March twenty eighteen
under allegations of sexual misconduct have highlighted the new need
for our wildfire communities to build our collective capacity to
confront and address these controversial topics. Sexual harassment, sexual misconduct,
(29:09):
and gender discrimination is known to be widespread in many
government agencies, including the US Forest Service, National Park Service,
and US military. The United States is not alone in
facing these issues. Canada and Australia report similar trends, and
the report continues with some statistics. In twenty fifteen, an
(29:29):
af survey with almost three hundred and fifty respondents revealed
that thirty two percent reported observing incidents of sexual harassment
in the workplace and twenty four percent experienced it directly.
Fifty four percent reported observing gender discrimination of others in
the workplace and forty four percent reported experiencing it. Sixty
four percent of respondents who experienced sexual harassment and sixty
(29:52):
percent who experienced gender discrimination did not report it right.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
And again this is because a big scannal happened when
the lead chief. So that's just a reminder. But in
twenty eighteen, PBS did a report with women coming forward
to about the level of harassment insults that they had
experienced within the four services. Three of the women interviewed
stated that had been raped by fellow employees as well.
(30:17):
And of course these allegations aren't you and five. In
twenty fourteen, seven women wildland firefighters filed the complaint against
the Department of Agriculture quote, alleging that they suffered job discrimination, harassment,
and sexual abuse at the hands of male coworkers, and
that top agency officials failed to stop it. And this
was according to Wildfire Today dot com and Yeah. In
(30:37):
that same article, it says September twenty second, twenty sixteen,
the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform her testimony
from two employees about harassment and the NPS and the USFS.
Kelly Martin, fire management officer at Yosemite National Park, described
quote a hostile work environment in Yosemite where dozens of
individuals have come forward with personal statements of demoralizing behavior,
(31:00):
to include acts of bullying, gender biases, and favoritism. She
also described sexual harassment in previous jobs where she worked
for the USFS. But again, these are the only issues.
What about the intersectional communities within this field. Here's some
information from a research paper titled gender, sexual orientation, and
ethnicity and socioeconomic factors influence how wildland firefighters communicate their
(31:25):
work experiences. Approximately eighty three point six percent of wildland
firefighters are white, seventy eight point seven percent are male,
and ninety three point five percent identify as straight. The
numbers are alone are fairly discouraging, but within this research, they
also found that the marginalized communities were at much greater
risks mentally and physically. So here's some disturbing details within
(31:46):
the research. Very limited research exists that contextualizes wildland firefighters,
but work on female firefighters in Canada shows that other
ring through discrimination and hostility played a key role in
women's experiences in the career. Likewise, few studies directly examined
the ways in which these stressors may differentially impact minority
(32:08):
and modulize wildland firefighters. Those that do report trends in
experiences rather than context. A quantitative survey of wildland firefighters
experiences observed significantly higher rates of reported injury in bipock
wildland firefighters than wildland firefighters. Similarly, they found occupational fatality
for black workers was one point three to one point
(32:31):
five times higher than that of white workers, and they
also found that black women were more likely to be
injured than white women while working in agricultural settings.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
And of course, the mental health issues and crises that
happen with this field are substantial. Unfortunately, the data seems
to be lacking. As you can tell, some research is
being conducted, but it does seem that a lot warnings
to be done. Here's a bit from psychiatryonline dot org
about whole thing quote. A national survey of all types
(33:03):
of firefighters conducted several years back found that fifty five
percent of firefighters reported a history of suicidal behavior, compared
with thirty two percent of non wildlane firefighters, according to
a report by Ian H. Stanley and Moore in the
August twenty eighteen Psychiatry Research, One potential explanation was that
wildland firefighters reported less sense of belongingness, such as having
(33:28):
few friends and feeling disconnected from other people. However, out
of more than one one hundred respondents, only twenty were
wildland firefighters, the rest being structural firefighters.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Right and they continue. Recently, dedicated researchers, many with tie
to the wildland firefighter community, have begun to bring in
a more quantitative data on a variety of health and
wellness topics. Patricia O'Brien, PhD, a prior wildland firefighter who
went on to pursue a psychology degree, surveyed over twenty
six hundred current, former and retired wildline firefighters as part
(34:01):
of her dissertation. Respondents filled out a variety of mental
health screening measures and answered other questions about their experiences.
She presented her findings in twenty twenty one at the
Wildfire sixth Annual Human Dimensions Conference, and they were alarming.
Seventeen percent of wildland firefighters reported symptoms consistent with diagnosis
of depression and thirteen percent reported symptoms consistent with generalized anxiety,
(34:24):
and both about two to three times higher than the
general populations. The prevalence of probable post traumatic stress disorder
was nearly fourteen percent, which is four times the rate
in the general population. Further, less than half of the
respondents who had symptoms consistent with PTSD reported that they
had been clinically diagnosed with the disorder, highlighting that this
condition remains underdetected, unrecognized, and undertreated in a clearly at
(34:48):
risk group. More than half of the respondents reported binstrinking
at least once in the past month, while twenty two
percent reported heavy drinking, and not surprisingly, cigarette use was
rare in this grow, but nearly thirty seven percent use
smokeless tobacco products.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Unfortunately, with the relatively newer information, there doesn't seem to
be a whole lot of resources for wildland firefighters. The
conversation of whether or not the government should be providing
services along the lines of VA healthcare has been ongoing,
but because of the structure of the field, it seems
part of confusion is who has authority over which unit.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Right, I kind of just spreads in different areas where
who is under what governmental authority, So they are not
unifying in how they should be treated or even recognizing
the fight that they need to be treated. I think
also part of the conversation, and I've seen this a
lot when it comes to seasonal workers, even though it's seasonal,
because of the way this goes about and not necessarily
(35:50):
because it's like it's a sale. Is it a Christmas sell?
You know, like you know what I mean that. I
think they really do see this as less hectic, but
the amount of pressure I'm sure that they go through
is intense just in general firefighters, but because the firefighters
are ongoing and often see as an emergency response continuously,
(36:10):
I'm wondering if that's like they're seen as civil servants,
even though I would assume the four services are federal level.
But yet they still haven't gotten to the point they're like,
oh yeah, maybe we should provide some services other than
when they get hurt hurt ah. So the question is
has the culture really changed. The numbers seem like they're
kind of rising again, not significantly, zero point seven percent
(36:34):
looked like more attention has been brought about the need
for diversity, but again, it doesn't seem to be fast
in this progression. However, there have been several initiatives that
have been implemented in order to bring some equal opportunities.
One of the programs out there is including the California
Conservation Corps or the CCC, and here's some information from
(36:55):
nineteenth news dot org. The California Conservation Corps or CCC
a paid conservation work development program for their residents ages
eighteen to twenty five. Unlike the Civilian Conservation Corps, a
program started under President Franklin D. Roosevelt aimed at putting
men to work in the National Parts and Force. The
California version has been co ed since its launch in
(37:18):
nineteen seventy six. However, women make up only twenty five
percent of the CORE members, depending on which of the
twenty four centers they are located at. The work CCC
members do range from apprenticeships in conservation, habit restoration, and
energy to emergency management assistance in fires, floods, and mudslides.
Part of the CCC's mandate is to recruit from low
(37:40):
income or otherwise marginalized population, providing a pathway into good jobs.
The CORE requires that participants who don't have a high
school diploma participate in the education program that allows members
to take classes alongside their cores work to earn one.
So even though this is not the greatest program, at
least as co ed and I did see other organizations
(38:03):
do pull from that program to put into their own internship.
So it could be a good opportunity. Oh that could
always be better, but at least they look at some
of the marginalized communities.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yes, there are also programs like Women in Wildland Fire,
which even hosts events. Here's some information from their site.
We are current and former wildline firefighters who have come
together to share the experiences of Women in Fire. We
aim to explore the challenges faced, highlight the progress made,
and build a community to support and assist women and
(38:35):
other underrepresented groups in this field, right.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
And not only do they put on interesting events that
the one just happened in April where they had different
speakers come through, but they also have guides on how
to apply for jobs and even give you a list
of jobs that are opened and help you with like
employment guides, So that's good. And they have a great
list of resources and organizations to look into for more
help or information, so they've got some access. So they
(39:00):
also have like some podcasts that they recommend about women
in wildland fire fighting, so a lot of information from them,
and there's several more in different states have started doing
different programs as well. Obviously when we're talking about states,
we're talking more about the Western area. I saw some
for Colorado, obviously, California and Washington, which is some of
(39:22):
the big stuff that is happening because we are in
the season. Unfortunately, and as we read in that New
York Times article, it has already begun. We know wildland
fire has been raising due to a dude lighting his
car on fire and just wanting to set something on fire.
And this has been a conversation of a lot of
(39:42):
concerns about again, what is happening with the environment, what
is the causes? How do we stop it? The suppression conversation,
the control burning conversation is a lot, but it's good
to know that there are some good people out there
doing what they can, risking their lives for us.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
So thank you, yes, yes, thank you and listeners. If
you have any experience with this, whether it's you or
someone you know, if you have any resources, anything we
should check out, please let us know. You can email
U at stuffan your mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter I'm mom Stuff podcast,
(40:17):
or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You.
We're on YouTube. We have a tea public store. Now
we have a book you can get wherever you get
your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,
our executive pruser Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you,
and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I've Never Told
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