SMNTY Classics: What is KOSA and Why is it so Scary?

Friend of the show Joey breaks down the Kids Online Safety Act (KOSA) and why we need to pay attention to it in this classic epsode.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is any and Samitha the Stuff I Ever
Told You production of.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
I Heart Radio.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
And for today's classic, we are bringing an episode that
we did with Joey contributor Joey Friend Joey on Kosa,
which is an act that legislators are framing as protecting
the children, but has a lot of extremely problematic and

(00:40):
legitimate concerns around it, around how it's enforced, vague language
in there, and just abuse that could happen, limiting information,
all that stuff, and we thought we should bring this
one back because this is ongoing for but there's a

(01:01):
lot of similar legislation around the world. And also we
just had our fan fiction Breakdown episode that talked about
a lot of laws similar to this, or a lot
of things that people are watching similar to this and COSA.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
When it first came out.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
A lot of people were like, it'll you know why
you should pay attention, It'll take your fan fictional Like,
oh no, now you've got yeah, save a fan fiction.
So please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie

(01:40):
and Samantha and welcome to Steffan Never Told You Production
of iHeartRadio. And today we are so excited to be
joined by a friend of the show general friend Joey,

(02:00):
come to.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
My friend's status week girl, we need to meet in
in IRL.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
We do. I need to go to Atlanta soon.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
I'm waiting until it starts getting cold here, so I
don't want to be in New York and then I
will definitely be out in Atlanta.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
That's smart because it's very hot here.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
But yes, I cannot cannot wait.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
And it's been a minute since you've been on here,
so we're really excited to have you back. And this
topic is one that I'm really interested to learn more about.
And I think you and I were discussing before this.
I sort of learned about it at the same time
as you did, but perhaps slightly differently. But yes, today

(02:50):
we're talking about COOSA. So can you just like intro
what we're discussing today for sure?

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, So, Okisa, I'm going to be talking about KOSA,
which is the Kids Online Safety Act and sort of
this onslaught of bills in Congress right now that are
aimed at, quote, protecting kids online. We live in a
weird time and there's a lot of weird, terrible repressive
legislation going on. This set of bills that we're going
to focus on and I think I was already sort
of concerned about this when I started writing this. I think,

(03:21):
especially after researching this whole thing, this piece of legislation
is one of, if not the thing that I'm probably
most worried about right now. I think it is it
has a lot of potential really catastrophic outcomes that could
happen from this, and it's been a little bit scary
to see sort of how it's been repackaged a lot

(03:45):
in mainstream coverage, and how a lot of sort of
the issues of it regarding it have been kind of
glossed over in favor of this idea of like quote,
protecting kids. And yeah, I'm going to get more in
to that, but so really quick, just a content war.
I'm going to be discussing some mental health crisises, suicide,

(04:05):
self harm, bullying, child abuse. None of it's super explicit,
but these aren't things aren't going to come up. And
also just transphobia and homophobia and some of the legislation
that has been weaponizing these phobias.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Anyways, as Annie.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
And I were speaking about before this, I first heard
about this through TikTok, like many people, I think, because
again this is a peace of legislation that's in Congress
right now and is happening tangentially to a lot of
other similar pieces of legislation. But TikTok has been a
big place, a big platform for activists to speak about this.

(04:43):
To creators in particular, I want to shout out are
Sarah Phillips. I think her ad is just Sarah E.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Phillips.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
And then also the creator Omar's big sister. I don't
know what her actual name is, but I love her TikTok.
She's hilarious, very super online internet kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Love it. But anyways, she's lit a lot of.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Really great work and talking about this issue and getting
information out there.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, and I think I Samantha as usual kind of
my TikTok person who sends me to duson I need
uh sent me some about this of the day the
tragic day that AO three went down and fan fiction
was oh yeah, unavailable.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah, that was also a thing, a big thing that
kind of sparked a lot of this obviously, like people
were talking about this beforehand.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
There was a lot of organizing that was happening.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
But about a month ago AO three, which is this
thing fan fiction site. We've talked about the show a
couple of times and shut down for like a day.
It turned out there was some whole I don't I
still don't totally know what the story is. There are
like a lot of weird things that was happening. I
think I saw it was hacked or something. But something
that was coming up that day was like, Hey, this
sucked that we didn't have fan fiction for a day.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
This could be a permanent thing if this.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
Legislation passes, Like, we should talk about this because I'm
some again, I'm somebody who enjoys fan fiction. I think
it is, you know, an important part of the Internet.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
And all of that. But there's a lot of other
Even if.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
You don't care about fan fiction, there's a lot of
things this legislation's going to effect that are.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
A little bit scary. So yeah, so COSA.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
The Kids Online Safety Act What is it KOSA is
one of again an on slide of recent bills aimed
at regulating kids online activity and data privacy, which in
theory seems not terrible. There's two things here. One is
data privacy, which we don't really have a lot of
in this country, and I do think that is a
very important issue, but if you look at the actual bill,

(06:40):
it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Really do much to protect data privacy.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
In fact, it kind of does the opposite, and it
forces people to put a lot more information online. Tech
experts have said that this bill will end up requiring
everyone to upload their government ID when they want to
use the internet, which, like, just think about that for
a second. Again, going back to Omar's Big Sister, one
of my favorite TikTokers to do some great work on this.
She made a couple of videos about this, one talking

(07:04):
about this particular concept, and she pointed out two really
important things.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
One, if this happens again.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Your government ID will be attached to everything that you
do online. So if you're speaking out against the government,
if you are part of a marginalized group, this can
be used to target you. Like this will now be
attached to your official sort of ID that usually has
like your birthday, usually your address. People already get docsed

(07:31):
for activism they're doing or just identities that they have,
and this will make it so much easier. And then
the second point that you made was like this is
the site you need to upload your ID too, and
then that site could be hacked very easily, and then
all of a sudden, all of your information could be
leaked online. Like again, this whole thing is about we're
protecting kids data, We're protecting data privacy.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yes I did just say data and data.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
I don't do the same word, but yeah, it ends
it does the opposite. It ends up doing the opposite
for everybody. It makes it less safe for people to
be online. So the main focus of this episode is
going to be on that first part, which is this
idea of regulating kids online activity, which again just saying
it like that, that sounds great. The Internet's crazy. If

(08:15):
you're a parent, you have a young kid, like I
can't imagine what that's like. You're totally going to want
to have like some guardrails in place. You're going to
want to have things that you don't want your kids
to see. But the problem is this piece of legislation
is very vague, it's coming up at a very strange time,
and there's a very clear disconnect between how it's sort
of being marketed and the actual motivation behind it and

(08:37):
the reality of what it's going to be used for.
So Fight for the Future is an advocacy group that
focuses on tech policy issues, particularly data privacy. They created
a website that's called stopcosa dot com will have into
the show notes, but on that website they state KOSA
claims to make kids safer, but it's really a dangerous
censorship bill that would give the government unprecedented control over

(08:59):
the Internet. This would put youth in danger by preventing
them from accessing potentially life saving resources. Lawmakers concerned about
online safety should reject KOSA and instead work to protect
all Internet users from abusive tech companies by passing a
federal data privacy law. And like first things first up top,
I'm going to be talking a lot about the problems
with a specific legislation and also talking about some of

(09:20):
the positives of social media and the Internet. That doesn't
mean that the Internet isn't also deeply messed up, and
there aren't a lot of concerns about again data privacy
and what kids are seeing online, what people have access to.
I think there is a conversation that needs to be
had there. This bill is not the solution. This bill
that is just going to be used as a method
of censorship, it's not the solution.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Again, I'm not really a tech person.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
I don't know the specifics of how a lot of
this stuff works, but we do need data privacy laws
in this country, like that is something we need.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
I think it is really.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
Telling that these politicians are focusing on a lot of
these bills that are focused on censorship rather than actually
protecting data. So at the top, clearly there is like
a problem again, like there are a lot of problems
with the Internet. There are a lot of problems with
how kids interact with the Internet, and how we interact
with the Internet, and how technology is regulated. But again,

(10:13):
rather than addressing data privacy or mental health, which is
going to come up a lot in this bill, that's not.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
What they're doing.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
So again for the future, they said a first, COSA
would pressure platforms to install filters that would wipe the
net of anything deemed quote inappropriate for minors. This equals
instructing platforms to sensor plain and simple places that already
use content filters have restricted important information about suicide prevention
and LGBTQ plus support groups, and KOSO would spread this

(10:40):
kind of censorship to every corner of the Internet. It's
no surprise that anti writes that are excited about COSA
it would let them shut down websites that cover topics
like race, gender, and sexuality.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Second, KOSO would ramp up the.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
Online surveillance of all Internet users by expanding the use
of age verification and parental monitoring tools. Not only are
these tools needlessly invasive, they are a massive state fee
risk for young people who could be trying to escape
domestic violence and abuse. And then also when we talk
about this bill, they use you know, language like kids
and children a lot that's just referring to anybody seventeen

(11:12):
and younger, which again is like the definition of a child.
But I think that there's something very intentional about using
the word kids, and like like when you hear kids,
you're thinking of like an eight year old, not you're
not thinking of a seventeen year old. But I think like,
especially as we talk about how this bill is going
to affect information about like sexual and reproductive health, which
are very important things for people to learn, usually in

(11:33):
their teen years. Like again we're talking about teenagers not
having access to this information. We're not talking about like
I don't know, five year olds. And yeah, again, this
isn't a coincidence that all this is happening at the
same time, there's this huge backlash against queer and trans people,
particularly queer and trans kids in this country. And so
let's talk about who's actually behind the bill. There's two

(11:56):
main sponsors. One is Senator Marshall Blackburn Tennessee, who's a Republican,
and then the other is Senator Richard Blumenthal from Connecticut,
who's a Democrat.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
We love bipartisan repression, all right, But.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
Anyways, I'm going to start with Senator Blackburn and the
right wing push for this bill. I'm going to get
to Senator Blumenthal for a minute because I some weird
stuff on him. But anyways, also, agism is bad. We've
talked about this on the show. Agism is a terrible thing.
That being said, I think it is worth pointing out

(12:38):
both Blackburn and Bluementhal are in their seventies, and like,
I know, it's complicate, legislation complicated, a lot of people
were on legislation, but like, personally, there's something really weird
to be about the fact that the two sponsor of
this bill are in their seventies and most of the
people that are like promoting this are on the older side.
And then meanwhile, if you look at a lot of
the backlash and a lot of people are speaking out

(12:59):
against It's a lot of like twenty something or thirty
something year olds or teenagers, you know, and we're the
people that actually grew up on the internet. Like I'm
I'm twenty four. I like the Internet has been a
part of my life since I was a kid. I
there is a generation alive right now that actually has
experienced this, and I think deliberately not looking to those

(13:22):
people to kind of lead this discussion is weird and
it's just not gonna like end well. There is a
quote like gen Z activist group that has been supporting
this bill. It's called Design It for Us. Their Instagram
bio says a coalition of young activists and organizations fighting
for safe for social media and online platforms for kids, teens,
and young adults. I haven't really been able to find

(13:44):
much information on this organization. Honestly, the most telling thing
for me they have three hundred and twenty six Instagram followers,
Which is fine, Instagram's not for everybody.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
But if you are you're calling yourself.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Like a gen Z activist organization, you have three hundred
and twenty six Instagram followers, like that's my mom has
more Instagram followers like I don't again, that not hers.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
I gotta call your mama like that, get a very
text after you know whatever.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
Anyways, Yeah, they're definitely there's there's this sort of disconnect
between that I say this, I'm probably the same age
as your mama and around the same round following.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
So how dare you I'll get that for her.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
She can make fun of me about having to text
her about like how to send a letter.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
She can, but oh g your poor mother. I'm so sorry, mother.
We're not party to this. I'm with you on your side.
Back to center Blackbird.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
So. A May article from The Electronic Freedom Found written
by Jason Kelly stated that kosa's co author, Senator Blackburn
of Tennessee, has referred to education about and race discrimination
as quote dangerous for kids. Many states have agreed and
recently moved to limit public education of the history of race, gender,
and sexuality discrimination. If COSA passes, platforms are likely to

(15:19):
preemptively block conversations that discuss these topics, as well as
discussions about substance abuse, suicide, and eating disorders, and there's
not clear agreement on their causes or their solutions referring
to suicide and disorders and substance abuse. So, yeah, there's
a lot to unpack here. First things first, we're living
in the middle of an active push to criminalize the
existence of a minority group in the US. The right

(15:41):
wing of this country are actively trying to kill trans people.
I have no problem just saying that, y'all straight up
had a spokesperson at SPAXA like trance people need to
be eliminated.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
It's very mask off at this point.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Senator Blackburn clearly and sort of that same boat and
says queer people, you are also being targeted. You are
all so now part of this group, like you guys
are next. We know where this is going anyways. So
these same people that are fueling this panic about queer
and trans people, they're now saying they want authority to
dictate what is and what is not appropriate for kids online.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
This, I think is particularly relevant right now.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
There's a wide piece of misinformation that's circulating right now
that's called the social contagent theory that basically claims that
exposure to trans people or media that talks about trans
people will somehow convince otherwise this gender kids that they're
trans to. It's based on this really weird claim that
there's just like so many kids coming out as transgender

(16:38):
right now.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
I don't really get where that's coming from.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
Yeah, this idea that like coming out is trands is
like a cool trendy thing to do with everybody. Again,
I don't know why people think that that is very
much not the case.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
Coming out is still very very difficult. Anyways, a lot
of turfs in particular flashed on to this idea.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
I would totally commend checking out the Anti trans Hate
Machine podcast with Lamar Jones. She did a really great
deep dive into how this theory circulated and a lot
of like the right wing push behind it.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
One thing I also think is really scary about this
is that.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
You know, more than like the sort of hyper religious
conservative angle of transphobia, I think this can be very
appealing to a lot of people that like consider themselves
to be like center left or left. This has made
its way into a lot of mainstream coverage of trans people.
It's made its way into the New York Times coverage.
I think like this is scarier to me than like

(17:36):
the sort of evangelical, super ultra right Christian angle that.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Is also super terrifying. But yeah, and again there's no
evidence for this.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
This entire like theory quote unquote comes from one study
from one doctor. The organization that published it later refuted it,
and a number of medical organizations have come out and
said that there's no evidence this is actually a thing. Also, again,
like I don't get why this is so hard for
sis straight people to understand, but like, think about it. Okay,
you could be arrested for not dressing a close enough

(18:07):
to your gender, regardless if you were at trans or not,
like not dressing feminine or masculine enough up until like
the seventies, and then like the AIDS crisis happened and
a lot of people died, and then the next twenty
years it wasn't like there wasn't there was still a
lot of homophobia.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
There was still a lot of transphobia that was very
well accepted. Maybe the reason.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
More people are coming out as trans now is just that,
like we live in a slightly more accepting society, and yes,
we are quickly rolling backwards too, but like we do
live in a time where there's on precedent visibility and
that can be really helpful, especially and again, like if
you're a trans kid and you've never been exposed to
this idea that like you can be trans, that's a possibility,

(18:47):
and then suddenly, like you see a piece of media
where they talk about trans people, whether that's like through
the Internet or TPEE or just like a book you read,
like that can help you realize your trans That's one
of the beautiful things I think about a lot of media,
and a lot of entertainment media and fiction too, is
like people see themselves reflected in it.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
So like, yeah, if.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
You have a kid and they watched to show about
trans people and then all of a sudden they were like,
I think I'm trans, that probably means they're trans. That
probably just means they saw themselves for the first time.
And then also this whole idea of like, oh your
friend came out as trans, so now you're gonna come
out of trans Like we all kind of find each other,
like we all kind of you know. It's it's like

(19:26):
having any sort of marginalized identity, you're going to want
to find people's similar experiences to you. It makes sense
that trans kids are going to sort of lash onto
each other, like weren't friendships and Again, like I think
when we're talking about the Internet, we're talking about this
issue particularly involving the Internet. So for some people, the
Internet is that space where they find these connections, They
find connections with other trans kids, they find connections with

(19:47):
other trans people.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
That was my experience growing up.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
I I was, you know, growing up when Tumblr was
a big thing, and like Tumblr was sort of my
first exposure to like other queer people and like queer community.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
And there's positives and negatives of that.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
But again I think I'm glad that I had that
instead of just not having anything. And again, there is
a discussion that we had about like online safety and
all that, but just saying we need to censor all this,
we need to let kids like not have any access
to this, that is not the answer that is going
to end up causing more harm than good. And again,
like when it is terrifying, this whole idea that, like
the whole social contagion idea, it is rooted in this

(20:26):
idea that being trans is wrong. It is rooted in
this idea that like there's something wrong with you if
your trans are queer. Because in all honesty too, it's
like the worst case scenario yeah, maybe it is a phase.
Maybe a kid comes out as trans and then later
they decide they're not. That's normal, kids go through phases,
Like I don't know, it is. It's very strange that

(20:47):
there's been this like massive backlash to the idea of
even considering that you might be trans or you might
not be your assigned gender at birth. So the Heritage
Foundation has also been a big supporter of this bill,
surprise surprise, as on May twentieth, they tweeted, quote, keeping
trans content away from children is protecting kids in response

(21:08):
to somebody pointing out, you know, another quote where they
were talking about like, yes, we want this bill to
pass because we can stop trans and queer people from
existing on the internet, and again very mask off, like
it's very obvious what they're going to be using this
legislation for. Another big supporter of this bill is the
National Center on Sexual Expectation, which a Vice article by

(21:30):
Janice Rose described as a far right quote anti trafficking
group previously known as Morality and Media that has lobbied
against porn, sex workers, and LGBT rights since the nineteen sixties. Again,
I'm not saying there isn't a lot of problems with
the porn industry. But it feels very strange to me
that they're like, we're an anti trafficking group and then
their main things so they're lobbying against, are porn and

(21:54):
LGBT rights and sex workers. Anyways, just seems weird. Back
to that Vice article quote, the group's president, Patrick Truman,
has previously worked for the American Family Association and the
Family Research Council, both bar right Christian organizations that have
been designated as anti LGBTQ hate groups by the Southern

(22:15):
Poverty Law Center. So, yeah, this is legislation that's being
supported by hate groups. I think that is worth pointing out.
And Yeah, one of the really messed up things about
all of this, and at a lot of this legislation
is a lot of times it's framed as protecting kids,
as stopping child abuse, stopping trafficking, which all seemed great,

(22:36):
but that can very easily be used as sort of
a mask for anti LGBT, anti people just talking about
sexuality in general, people talking about reproductive healthcare, especially in
like a post QAnon America.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
I would always be.

Speaker 3 (22:55):
Cautious if a piece of legislation is talking about protecting
kids or anti trafficking. There's a very a good chance
that's sort of upfront for something else. And the frustrating
part about that is like, yeah, trafficking is an issue,
kids being abused is an issue. We should be addressing
those ideas. But this isn't actually addressing that. This is
addressing very different issues. And yeah, again I'm focusing a

(23:18):
lot on LGBTQ PUS issues and how these are going
to be affected by this bill because I think that's
the most obvious right now and probably like the first
thing that it will be used for. But again, going
back to that quote about Senator Blackburn, a lot of
these politicians and advocates are like the same people that
are also saying that learning about racism is inappropriate for children,

(23:38):
or learning anything about sexual and reproductive health.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
There was that article that.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Just came out that was like, you basically can't teach
ap psych in Florida anymore because of like that. Don't
say gay bill like that, it's crazy, This isn't There's
so many things that could be kind of caught in
the net of what this bill allows politicians to regulate.
And then so going back to that quote again from

(24:04):
the Electronic Freedom Foundation about the bill and its sponsors.
It also points out that the bill passed. If the
bill passes, quote, platforms are likely to preemptively black discussions
about substance abuse, suicide, and eating disorders, which I think
is the other side of this, this discussion about mental health.
And again I'm not saying social media can't be used
to promote those things. Like I said, I was a

(24:26):
tumbler kid. I have seen all of the worst of this,
but they are very complicated issues. There's a lot of
things that cause this. People talk about, like the mental
health crisis happening right now, there's a lot of factors
that contribute to that. And also the Internet social media
can also be tools for helping find support. Again, the

(24:48):
Internet is just a platform. It's not necessarily good or bad.
It is just a way of distributing information. And you
can just as easily find things that will help you
as you can find things so hard you. So from
that same article, again, they said quote to pick just
one example. In some communities, safe injection sites are seen
as part of a solution to substance abuse, and others

(25:09):
they are seen as part of the problem. Under KOSA,
could a platform be sued for displaying content about them
or about needle exchanges, malaxon or other harm reduction techniques.
So yeah, again, the problem with this is that guess
it'll block informa, it'll block things that will supposedly promote
eating disorders or substance abuse, but then it'll also walk
information about getting help and on that mental health thread.

(25:42):
Because again, so this has been something I think supporters
of the bill have really latched onto. And again we
were talking about kind of the right wing backlash. I
think this has been a little bit more universal, a
little bit more bipartisan. They're arguing that the internet and
the kids, that the things that kids are seeing on
the Internet are the sole causes of all of these depression,
eating disorder's, addiction, self harm, et cetera. Again, which are

(26:04):
all very complicated issues. These things didn't just randomly appear
when the Internet appears. They've been around for a while.
I think they're more visible now for a lot of reasons,
but they've always kind of been there. And again, there's
definitely a conversation we had about the mental health crisis
happening in this country, but just blaming the internet for
it is dangerously simplifying those situation and it's just a weird,

(26:28):
like disinformed take. It's going to end up causing it
more harm than good, and so a lot of this
is coming from there. Recently was this report from the
US Surgeon General, which was an advisory on social Media
and Youth Mental Health that called to attention the negative
impacts that social media can have on kids' mental health.
And this is a great report. I totally encourage people
to check it out. I think it does a good

(26:49):
job of, like again laying out a lot of these
issues and laying out how social media can make these
problems worse, which again I'm not denying that that is
a thing. I'm not denying the fact that social media
can contribute to these problems. But one thing I think
was interesting about the study, and that is sort of
being looked over by a lot of the coverage of it,
is that it also does a pretty good breakdown of,

(27:10):
like not just the negative aspects of social media, but
also the positive aspects. And one thing that came out
of the study was that marginalized you tend to see
the internet more positively and tend to have kind of
more positive experiences with the internet. So again, if you
just google this study, you're going to see a lot
of headlines that are like Surgeon General raises alarm about
social media and social media driving team mental health crisis,

(27:35):
which is a big part of the report.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
But it also said social media can provide.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
Quote positive community and connection with others who share identity, abilities,
and interests. They later said that social media can provide
quote buffering effects against stress, particularly for queer and trans youth,
youth of color, or just like anybody that belongs to
a marginalized group. Some stats from the report that I
thought were particularly interesting. One was that seven out of
ten lesson girls of color report encountering positive or identity

(28:02):
off firming content related to race across social media platforms.
Fifty eight percent of adolescents interview had reported that social
media helped them feel more accepted, sixty seven percent said
that social media helps them feel like they have people
who can support them through tough times, seventy one percent
said that social media provides them a place to show
their creative side, and eighty percent felt like they were

(28:24):
more connected to what's going on in their friends' lives.
That last stat I think is particularly important. The study
also pointed out that quote the ability to form and
maintain friendships online and develop social connections, as well as
interactions with more diverse peer groups that are available offline,
Like these are all sort of benefits of social media, which,

(28:44):
like I don't know if you guys remember, but there
was this pandemic thing that just happened, and a lot
of us were very isolated for a long period of time.
A lot of kids were, and the Internet and social
media that was a way for people to bind connection.
That was a way for people to stay connected with
other people and provide an escape for a lot of people.
It definitely helped me. Like that's how I kind of

(29:06):
stayed sane. I was, you know, I was on Twitter
a lot. I was on TikTok a lot. I was
also like just facetiming friends and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Like that was a.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Way for me to like keep up social interaction, which
is a thing that you know, people need anyways. So
one more point I want to pull from this report,
it said a quote. An addition, research suggests that social
media based and other digitally based mental health interventions may
also be helpful for some children adolescents by promoting help
seeking behaviors and serving as a gateway to initiating mental

(29:38):
health care. So that's kind of going back what I
was saying before, Like this is really important. You can
argue that, yes, like social media, the Internet, it exposes
kids to self harm and to addiction and to suicidal idealization,
but also it provides kids with support. If you google
anything related to suicide, like one of the main things
that pops up is the suicide hotline, Like that.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Is a resource that is available to people.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
There are resources through the Internet people that are trying
to overcome addiction. You can find communities online. And also,
if you've been following this like ongoing right wing attack
on queer and trance folks in this country, one of
their most recent targets has been the Trevor Project, which
is a suicide hotline for LGBTQ post Kids Suicide Hotline,

(30:23):
so it is something that saves kids' lives. And this
has been kind of the latest group that's been roped
into this whole like groomer rhetoric about LGBTQ plus organizations
and people.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
This is a suicide hotline. This is preventing death, and
it's just it's so what the I just I can't like.

Speaker 3 (30:44):
It's so twisted, it is so messed up, and I
think that it is really telling that the same people
that are trying to shut down the Trevor Project just
because they acknowledge that queer people exist, I don't know,
they're the same people sort of promoting this bill and
promoting a lot of the things like changes that will

(31:06):
be put in place because of this legislation.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
So yeah, I think a big issue with this.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
The bill doesn't discriminate between content that's causing harm and
that's preventing it. It's just sort of a catch all.
The people again that are going to be determining what
is or is not appropriate for kids are politicians. Are
a lot of these same people that are trying to
again eliminate trans people from public life and their own words.

(31:33):
So it's scary. I'm really worried about what where this
is going. And on top of that, talking about the
Internet and some of the again like positives that I
see about the Internet and social media, because I do
feel like I got to defend that a little bit.
A lot of queer and trans kids don't live in

(31:53):
accepting households or they just don't know other queer people. Again,
I've talked about this before, Like I had a couple
of friends growing up, like also coming out around the
same time, but like I didn't really know any other
queer people. I didn't know any queer adults. And like,
if you're a person of color, if you're a person
who belongs to a marginalized religious group or ethnic group,
you can kind of be in a similar position where

(32:13):
maybe you're the only person at your school who has
an identity and you can't really relate to other like
you just don't have a community to talk about those
experiences with that can be really detrimental to your mental health.
And so one thing I was thinking about, So there
was this campaign what I was growing up that was
called it Gets Better and I'm be real, it was
really corny, Like I thought it was really dumb. That

(32:35):
being said, I think it was well intentioned. I think,
like I'm looking back, I'm really glad it was like
a thing. I'm glad and again, especially given the situation now,
I'm like, oh, I did not realize that that was
like really good.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
I do think I missed the mark a little bit.

Speaker 3 (32:48):
Anyways, I think the point of what that whole campaign
is that campaign was supposed to be and I think
something that I think is really important. It's supposed to
be like showing case. It's this idea that like you
can have a happy queer future. And I think for me, again,
that whole campaign didn early work. I was a really
agsty kid. I think I was just like very like whatever.

(33:11):
But what I the things that like helps me sort
of imagine a like a happy queer future for myself
where I would be able to be like my true
self and be again yeah, just be happy, just be
like not suffering all the time. Access to the internet
was access to YouTubers and to Tumblr and to just
like and a fan fiction. Again, like I keep going

(33:34):
back to that, but that was really the first time
I I read stories about queer people. And again, these
are all things that are going to be attacked to
sort of like wiping the existence of queer people from
the Internet. All you're gonna do with that is show
kids that like, you don't have the future. You don't
have a future where you can be happy and accepted

(33:56):
and be your true self.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
And that is terrifying. That is that is what leads
to suicide.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
So anyways, yeah, right wing politicians want is dead. What
else is new? Anyways, let's talk about the Democratic co
sponsor of this bill, Richard Blumenthal.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Oh my god, this guy.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
Okay, So he has been a co sponsor on a
lot of similar bills, a lot of these bills that
have been tracked by the Electronic Freedom Foundation and Fight
for the Future. This has been just looking at kind
of his legislative history. He also tried to pass some

(34:37):
bills in like the late nineties early two thousands about
like regulating MySpace, and I don't know, this just seems
to be his whole thing. He's very into like restricting
what people can see online.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Apparently he is also.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
The co sponsor of the urn It Act, another bill
that Fight for the Future is organizing against, which if
you look at what Congress has online, they summarize the
bill as quote, this bill revises the federal framework governing
the prevention of online sexual exploitation of children end quote, which.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Again, that sounds great.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
I don't think anybody can disagree that like that, that's yeah,
we shouldn't be having that happen.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
But that's not what the bill actually does.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
This is again from Fight for the Future's website bad
Internet Bills and also will also have that in the description.
They have a lot of information about not just KOSA,
but like all of these bills that earn earn It
Act and other bills that are happening right now. But yeah, so,
from their website, this bill quote threatens to undermine online

(35:38):
encryption by punishing companies that provide encryption services. Again, I'm
not a very techy person. I don't know exactly how
end to end encryption works, but basically, it is what
keeps online messaging private. It is what prevents Again, we
don't really have good data privacy laws in this country,
but it is like the one thing that prevents hackers
from accessing your personal information. We all use it, even

(36:01):
if you don't think you do like you use it.
And again, this is the same guy who's arguing that
KOSA will protect data privacy, and they've used some of
the language from the urn It Act. They put some
of this into KOSA. Both of these bills are going
to destroy what little data privacy we have. Yeah So,
also from Fight for the Future. In twenty sixteen, a
bipartisan congressional commission concluded that quote encryption is an exorbally

(36:25):
tied to our national interest. Senator Ron Wyden has pointed
out that quote, you can't only build a backdoor for
the good guys. Once you weaken encryption with a backdoor,
you make it far easier for criminals and hackers and
predators to get into.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
Your digital life.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
So, like back in twenty sixteen, we had Congress people
being like, we need encryption.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
This isn't like we shouldn't end encryption.

Speaker 3 (36:49):
This is literally the one thing that is preventing hackers
from getting into your stuff. This bill also allows for
like a heightened surveillance state. So from the Fight for
the Future website quote, beyond the systemics surveillance issues we face,
individual police officers routinely misuse their access to confidential databases

(37:10):
to get information on neighbors, romantic partners, and business rivals.
We know the giving law enforcement and intelligence officials access
to our communication results in them taking advantage of that
access in the ways that hurt us, often with absolutely
no benefits to the public good. Why should we trust
them to with even greater access to our private conversations?

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Simply put, we shouldn't. So yeah, like, remember how like
ten years ago we.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
Had this whole like like the snowed in leaks happened,
and we were like, oh my god, the government spent
like recording all these phone calls and stuff, and it
hasn't even really done anything to like prevent terrorism. Yeah,
this whole conversation. I thought we universally like decided mass
surveillance is a bad thing. But again, now we're apparently

(37:53):
doing that.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
So in an article about this bill, the Electronic Freedom
Foundation states that quote and then of fighting crime, the
earn It Act creates all Internet users like we should
be in a permanent criminal lineup under suspicion for child abuse.
If enacted, earn It will put massive legal pressure on
Internet companies both large and small, to stop using true
end to end encryption and instead scan all user messages, photos,

(38:15):
and files. And like I said before, we all use
end to end encryption if we use it for so
many things. The Electronic Freedom Foundation points out that this
bill could be used to target people who seek reproductive healthcare,
since that's something that's been under attack. Also, who could
be used to target trans folks. We're already seeing some

(38:36):
state governments that are going out of their way to
target and harassed trans folks. Last year, Texas Attorney General
Ken Paxton attempted to use government resources to compile a
list of trans adults who changed their legal gender marker
on the ID. That is creepy, Like he wanted a
list of everybody that changed their gender marker on their ID.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
There's no way that ends well. I just it's it's weird.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
And again, like even if if you're somebody, if you're
in a position where like I'm never gonna deal with this.
I am a sis white man, I have whatever the
most privileged ever, why would you want less data privacy? Like?

Speaker 2 (39:18):
Why again?

Speaker 3 (39:19):
And these are things like we use we use an
encryption for healthcare, we use it for finances. Why would
you want to make it easier for people to hack
into your healthcare information, your health information or your your
again your finances. Like that doesn't seem good. A number
of Senators have spoken up against this bill, including Senator
Corey Booker and John Ostoff, and one hundred and thirty

(39:42):
two LGBTQ plus human rights organizations have signed on to
a letter opposing this bill. Also, just a quick note
brought up this bill and relation to Senator Bloomenthal, who's
the Democratic co sponsor of this bill. The Republican co
sponsor is Lindsay Graham. Ted Cruise is another co sponsor.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (40:03):
I don't think those are people that have my best
interest in mine. That's just my thoughts on that anyways.
So again, cos isn't the only bill that is attacking
internet freedom or data privacy. Senator Bluenthal apparently thinks he's
like an LGBTQ plus ally and has like spoken up
in the past about LGBT issues. If you want to

(40:26):
give me a call and explain to me why you
think like you can call it yourself an ally and
lay the charge for both of these bills, like explain
that to me, because I'm confused. And yeah, again, because
Congress is weird. There's also two nearly identical bills that
Bluenthala is sponsoring that are called one is called stop

(40:46):
See Sam and the others called the Cooper Davis Act,
and they both are essentially the same thing where they're like,
we're gonna stop sexual abuse and child abuse by just
monitoring briefing on the Internet and let it guess, look
at anything on the Internet. Go to Bad Internet Bills
dot com if you want to learn more about this.

(41:06):
They have some really great information. But yeah, this is scary.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
All of this is scary fun stuff.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
Clearly you've laid out why it's scary, but it's also
scary that I hadn't heard of it before then, Oh.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
Yeah, I think that's the other part is like there's
been very minimal coverage. Again, it is both of these
are bipartisan bills that are going through. There has been
you can't just point to it to a right wing
or a lefting issue. There's been a lot of propaganda
like kind of trying to portray this bill a certain way. Again,

(41:54):
really big shout out to all of these activists on
TikTok that are talking about this. I think they've done
a really great job of, like especially educating younger folks.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
Sarah Phillips, who.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
I mentioned at the top, she wrote a really awesome
piece for teen Vogue about this bill and kind of
laying out also talking about the AO three crash and
laying out sort of a lot of things that are
going to be affected by this bill. But yeah, it is.
It is scary. Again, it's terrifying. This is going to
have if this passes, it's going to have a terrible

(42:25):
impact on our data, privacy, on internet freedom, on freedom
of speech, where again, this is one of those things
where it's like it's clearly a freedom of speech issue,
and none of the supposed freedom of speech whatever purists
seem to be speaking out about this. So that's a

(42:47):
whole other discussion. But yeah, but again I think this
is really important to talk about.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Now.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
This is the second attempt they did. Yeah, they tried
this back and I believe twenty sixteen where that quote
was from, but they're trying to rush this through now.
I believe they're supposed to vote on it in September.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
I might be wrong about that anyway. It's that being said, though,
it is this is an urgent issue.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
This is something that I think, especially again, I think
it is no coincidence that this is happening tangentially to
all of these anti trans, anti queer legislation that's happening,
especially those that are targeting trans kids. And again I've
talked about the social contagion, conspiracy theory, lie, whatever the

(43:32):
hell you want to call it. These are the same
things that are fueling this legislation, and it's terrifying that
this could be a this could be a national This
could be a national law.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
And also just to add Senator Blumenthal, who is the
co sponsor of this bill and of the burn It Act,
he's also a co sponsor of this restrict Act, which
is the bill that is, if you read the actual bill,
what it says is authorizes the Secretary of Commerce to
review and prohibit certain transactions between persons in the United

(44:02):
States and foreign adversaries and for other purposes. This was
this is being promoted in response to TikTok, which there
have been some Again that's a whole other complicated conversation,
but it's the myths that are going around is like
TikTok's gonna be a use despy on the US from

(44:26):
the Chinese government, and I don't know. Again, there's so
much unpacked there. There's so much wrong with that claim.
It also is very strange that we are like, you know,
we have Facebook, and we have all these other corporations
that are tracking our data and have no problems like

(44:46):
sharing it with the US government. Probably have no problems
like sharing it with foreign governments too, So it is
weird that and again, I the reason they're going after
TikTok is because TikTok has become a new platform for
young people to organize on and Trump was really against TikTok,
and like that makes sense because remember he had that

(45:08):
one rally where like there was supposed to be like
a like a there's like a huge crowd that was
supposed to be there, and that was like really tiny
because a bunch of people on TikTok like started basically
explain like here's how to get tickets, and like, like
I think it literally it's just all these these politicians
that are like mad that people are organizing against them
and are trying to restrict the platforms that people are
using to organize. Yeah, and this is a conversation again,

(45:30):
like there definitely is a conversation to be had about
Internet safety, and there definitely is a conversation to be
had about how kids are interacting with the Internet and
how the internet affects us. But this is something this
whole idea of like we don't understand it, so we
just have to like we just have to block it.
We just have to like get rid of it. This
is something that happens every time there's a new piece
of technology. And yeah, when I was a kid, it

(45:52):
was video games like it and like before I get again,
like it's been used for certain types of music, it's
been used for my favorite thing to point to. In
the nineteen fifties, there was a whole congressional trial about
comic books and about how comic books are like destroying
the youth of America. Look up a like nineteen fifties
comic book panel. They're corny as hell. Like it's so

(46:14):
like there it's again, this is It's the same conversation
over and over again. I think in twenty years this
conversation is going to look equally as ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
I hope it does. But yeah, it's again.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
And also my issue again when we have these conversations
about the internet, I think a big problem is very quickly.
A lot of times it gets sort of split into
either the Internet's good or the internet's bad. Social media
is good or the or social media is bad, and
both are complicated. It is a very complicated situation. And
regardless of whether it's good or bad, it's the thing
that exists, like we're not. You can't put that back

(46:49):
in the box, like it's out there. The internet exists.
We interact with the Internet every day of our lives.
If you want to participate in everyday life, you need
to know how the internet works.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
I think.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Again, it is complicated. I do think there needs to
be like some sort of conversation about this. But I
think one of the positives of being a kid and
growing up with the internet, growing up with internet access,
is that you learn internet safety at a much younger age,
and you learn kind of how to interact with the Internet.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
From a much younger age.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
And I think again, like, you know, we joke about
how like older people not being tech savvy and younger
people kind of having a more of a idea of
how these platforms work. But like the reason is because like, yeah,
people my age, we all grew up with this, we
all grew up learning this, We've learned how.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
To be.

Speaker 3 (47:36):
You know, citizens on the internet, whatever that means. And
just taking that away and just saying like, no, kids
shouldn't be able to interact with this, kids shouldn't understand
the realities of how the internet works and.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
How it affects us.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
Like that doesn't that just is gonna you're just putting
off the problem. You're just putting it off till they're older. Yeah,
it's it's weird, it's it's not going to end well,
and it's we living a really cool time.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
It's a lot of weird stuff's happening right now. Yeah,
the Pope's talking about AI, I tell you talking about AI.
Apparently we look about this too.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Is like I brought up that quote, like gen Z
activist group that's behind supposedly supporting COOSA on other things,
they've been really like advocating like regulating AI, which I
think is a totally like, yeah, that's a whole different
issue first of all, and yes.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
We do need to be regulating the AI.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
We do need to be having some conversations about AI.
That's not the same thing as social media and just
like the ability to find things on the internet. These
are all again, like I said before, ageism is bad,
but I think it is.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
A little like these are people that are.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
In their seventies that are that are trying to explain
the Internet to us. They're trying to explain how the
Internet works like this isn't.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
I don't know. There's so many Yeah, that's a.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
Series of too, That's what they told me. Series of bikes.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
That is a real quote. That's a real quote. From
a politician. Yeah that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
Yeah, it's yeah, And I mean, thank you for breaking
this down. I feel like we're seeing all of these
book bands, we're seeing all of this attempts at censorship,
and a lot of times people don't equate what's going
on online with quote real life, but it is. We
do interact with it every day. I lost it for

(49:40):
a little bit recently and I was like, well, what.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Do I do?

Speaker 1 (49:43):
I don't how do I function? Like it's a part
of our everyday lives and they're just using all of
these fake Like we've talked before about how often they
use sex trafficking and the safety of children and all
these things that sound really good, but they're just using
it to distract you from the real thing and like

(50:05):
those issues, distracting from those issues, like.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, it's it's really scary because the Internet we've also
talked before about. Yeah, they're perfectly happy to for American
companies to make money, but so many places that people
frequent that you were discussing, where you might find like
a community around your marginalized identity are free and that's important,

(50:34):
but they would probably that's like the first thing they're
going to get rid of like the companies that can
get your data right now, nothing's gonna happen to them.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
But like those kind of free spaces where.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
People can find community that they maybe couldn't, that's that's
gonna go first.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Exactly. Yeah, I mean I think also we're watching this happen.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
While like Twitter's kind of fallen apart, and I think
that it's been a great like that's been a great
example of how like Twitter for a while.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Again, it wasn't perfect.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
There were a lot of issues with Twitter, but it
was a place that a lot of activist movements like
kind of gained popular. That's where like the Black Lives
Matter movement and me Too, like really gained momentum. It
was like a networking platform for a lot of people. Again,
I like, I'm a I'm a journalist. I used Twitter
a lot to connect with people and to connect with
sources or just.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Connect with other people with like similar identities.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
I met a lot of other I have a lot
of friends that I met through the internet just because
we again, like we were both queer, we're both like trends,
or we're both interested in the same like nerdy bandom stuff. Like,
it's it's it's been a really I again, I think
I think the whole is the internet good or bad thing?
Is it a productive conversation, because again, it exists, but

(51:50):
it's like, but there are a lot of benefits. And
I think again going back to that report that the
supporters of those field keep pointing to you about the
mental health effects and social media, they're really ignoring the
fact that this report also is like no, like this
can be really great for kids with marginalized identities. There
are a lot of positives to this. It's yeah, it's
it's much more complicated. It's and if we want to

(52:13):
talk about mental health too, like we have, like the
healthcare situation in this country is a mess. We don't
want to like why aren't we talking about that? You
know what, it would be a great like thing to
help out mental health in this country. It would be
to like strengthening our actual like healthcare system and the
ability of people to access healthcare because so many people
like don't have health insurance or and that and in

(52:34):
itself self causes more you know, the harm to your
mental health. Financial insecurity causes harm to your mental health.
The fact that we live in a planet that is burning. Definitely,
that's that's only a big thing.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
I don't know. Again, like as aliens apparently, I think
that's fun, you know, I do think it was a
little funny. Yeah, it's like the people always want.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
To talk about how like gen Z has terrible mental health,
we're on a planet that's dying. Like it's it makes sense,
what would I don't know, it's this whole thing is
so Yeah, I've said my piece.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
It's it's messed up. It is. It is.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
Well, thank you, Thank you Joey for coming on and
bringing this to us and breaking it down, for providing sources,
because there are if you look this up, there are
some things you can do, like contacting your senators all
that kind of stuff, if you want to do something
about this very scary thing that's happening. But yes, Joey,
where can the people find you online if they want to?

Speaker 2 (53:37):
For now? Yeah, while we selve the internet, you can find.

Speaker 3 (53:41):
Me at pat Patt not n ot prat p R
A T T. That is my Twitter and my Instagram.
If you're interested in this topic and you want to
learn more about the Internet and all the various issues
that the Internet and technology should check out there are
No Girls on the Internet, which with Bridget Todd, I

(54:01):
work on that show as well as well as a
couple of other Avenue one coming out I'll probably be
talking about next time I'm on here, but as of
right now, I don't have any updates, but yeah, yeah,
find me, find me on Twitter and Instagram. I'm not
on Twitter very much anymore because like who is, but
you know I'm holding I'm holding on till.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
Yes, well yeah, well more excuse for you to come
back and you can talk about course your upcoming show.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Yeah, anytime. Love being on the show. So fun.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
We love having you.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
So that's so glad.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
Well listeners. If you would like to find us on
the internet, you can emails. Stepan email stuff at iHeartMedia
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff on
Have you told you We have a tea public store
with merchandise. We have a book you can preorder. It
is that stuff you should read books dot com. We
have an audiobook. I have a physical form of the book.
Thanks as always to us. You've producer Christina, our executive

(55:01):
producer Maya and Joey who is here and thanks to
you for listening. Stefan, the virtual news production of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts on my heart Radio, you can check
out the ihart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.