SMNTY Classics: Women and the Apocalypse

The apocalypse has captivated our collective minds for a long time. And usually, women play one of a handful of usually gendered roles. In this classic, we look for the light in apocalyptic scenarios.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
And Samantha.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
And welcome to Stuff Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio.
And welcome to another classic, and this one is on
the apocalypse. Women, and the apocalypse specifically. There's a lot

(00:30):
of reasons I was thinking about this. Obviously, the news.
I think it's become a more common topic of conversation
than it already was when we were recording this. And
part of that is I was trying to make my
grocery list today and I don't know. I don't know

(00:51):
what to do. There's so many food recalls. It's just,
it feels very go grow your own. You know what
I mean? growing on produce but then you're talking about
i can't eat these three tomatoes they're only gonna get
me so.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Far i have five tomatoes now oh i'm.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
Sorry i didn't mean to didn't mean to slight you
but yeah things like that um yeah obviously the last
of those days coming up so thinking about that yeah
halloween's coming A lot of things.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
There's a lot of things happening.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, there really is. I miss the days of me
making a grocery list. I've got to research every single thing.
I don't even know what I'm going to eat for
dinner tonight, but I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out.
In the meantime, please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this

(01:56):
is Annie.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
And Samantha.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
And welcome to Stuff I've Never Told You, a production
of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
And for no specific reason at all or timing at all,
we thought it would be fun to talk about the apocalypse.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
No? Sure. Everybody loves, everybody loves in time. No fun
for all.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
And if you've been following along recently with our episodes
and kudos to you, cause we know we have a
lot of content.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
So if you're like, yeah, I heard that one. I'll
be like, wow, good on you.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
Uh, I have been exploring how to survive the world. Uh,
as it starts to implode, I, I bought a bread maker.
I have plans for gardens and other things, uh, which
made me ponder, what do people think when it comes
to women and the apocalypse? Because, you know, again, as

(02:57):
we told you previously many, many times, we're always thinking
about episodes in this show specifically.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
So there you go.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
And perhaps to no one's surprise, there's a lot of
speculation on women, especially in like a zombie apocalypse, because
that's the majority of like when we were looking for
quizzes or something fun, it's just zombie apocalypse. And yes,
that includes several articles based on The Last of Us.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Annie, I know, I know.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
But also a lot of references on how women are
the face of the biblical apocalypse as well. So why
don't we talk about some of the facets of this apocalypse.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
And women, Annie? Why don't we jump into it?

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Let's do it.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
You ready? So I'm thinking this is going to be
a little bit shorter one. Why do I do this?
I just set myself up, didn't I?

Speaker 1 (03:48):
You're starting the apocalypse. This is like what, at the
beginning of the pandemic, when everybody was thinking about the
one thing they did or said.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
That started it. Ours was the predictions, weren't they? Okay,
moving on. We're not going to harp on that one again.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
So the apocalypse is a wonderful, I say this sarcastically,
setting for so much entertainment, whether we are talking about movies, books,
or games. It has opened up so many... scenarios and
possibilities and plot lines.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
And how many types of apocalypse are there? Well, a lot.
There's a lot out there.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Some of them include like pandemic level. And yeah, we
still need to finish our game, Annie. Yes.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Pandemic being a board game that is very, very fun, very,
very difficult. It has many difficulties and also different iterations.
We were playing it during the pandemic. We got through
two of them.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
One.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
We got through the main one that people play, and
then we did the longer campaign one, and then we
had a second longer campaign one, and we haven't finished
that one. And when we sit down to play that again,
we're going to have to do a refresher.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
We're going to have to do it. I'm almost thinking
we might have to start over.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
No, because my character is so interesting.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, he's probably going to die.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
I was the traitor in the other one.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
So many.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
I didn't mean to be.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
A few of our characters died.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Y'all. They're fun.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
It's a thing. It's fun.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
It is.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
But it's also like a 30-minute setup to remember how
to play it.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
But we love those campaigns, right?

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
So there's the pandemic. And then we have the man-created war,
nuclear holocaust.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
There's alien.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
You know, that type of apocalypse. And so much more.
But it seems the more recent or, I guess, favorites
are something along the lines of a specific disease or
disaster that eventually creates a zombie-like environment that's going to
come and eat you or infect you.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Like one of those iterations, right?

Speaker 3 (05:57):
And to add some depth to these, here's some explainers
of some of the apocalypses. Again, I think they have like,
the list goes on and on. I looked at one
and you know how Google shows.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
You the top, whatever.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
So there was like, 12 listed, and then the number
says many more.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:14):
So we're not doing all of them, okay? But just
to give kind of a small explainer. So one timely
classic is the nuclear war. I'm thinking Fallout, that game,
you know what I mean, where everybody's hiding in bunkers,
all these things. It isn't a surprise that after the
usage of the nuclear weapons in World War II... that

(06:37):
people had legitimate fears of world-collapsing attacks, and of course,
the current state of being with power-hungry people who've been
given unlimited power, or so they claim.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
So, you know, that's one that's in the back of
our heads. That's an option, right?

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Then we have the pandemic apocalypse. Again, something that seems
like it could occur at any moment. And ashills.com even
talks about being the most plausible of all the apocalypses.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
Here's a quote.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
A pandemic apocalypse is one of the most plausible types
of apocalypse, and it's a scenario that we are currently
living through with the outbreak of coronavirus. While the current
pandemic isn't yet on the scale of some of the
fictional examples below, it's still a grim reminder of how
quickly a virus can spread and how easily civilization can
break down. So, yeah, that's one. And I have like

(07:29):
his article was in the midst of this. So makes
a lot of sense. One we didn't mention before is
the religious idea of the rapture. Remember the Left Behind series?

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Did you read any of those, Annie? Or watch Kirk
Cameron in action?

Speaker 1 (07:48):
That was a heavy sigh. I did read Left Behind.
I know there was a show. I didn't watch that.
I have said before, I had a teacher in eighth
grade who just really, really didn't like that I wasn't
that i was an atheist and he would always say
it's like you're running off a cliff and i i'm

(08:08):
trying to stop you uh and he was like you've
got to read left behind and i did it it
was fine.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
I love when people take fictional tales and be like
you need to read this this is gonna be you
he was really like.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
This is gonna change your whole perspective and i was
like okay Let me try it.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
It's the same thing as the Da Vinci Code. It
came around the same time. So you would think like, anyway,
but anyway. Yeah. So here's a brief explanation from that
same article, ashtales.com that says, the religious rapture apocalypse is
a popular motif in fiction, often used to explore themes
of fate, morality, and human nature. In these stories, the

(08:51):
world comes to an end, not through natural disaster or
nuclear war, but but through the intervention of a higher power.
This can take the form of God sending angels to
whisk away the faithful or of Jesus returning to judging
the living and the dead. Whatever the specifics, the religious
rapture apocalypse is a powerful way to explore the idea

(09:11):
of an all-powerful being who decides the fate of humanity.
And we're not going to go too deep into that
in itself, but we do want to come back around
and talk a little bit, just kind of mention some
of the female images used to portray these end of
times within the religious concepts of the apocalypse based on Revelation.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
And if you know, you know.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
But you're going to know at the end of this.
But yeah, I find this interesting because... Again, when you
have tales of the rapture, there's always a center character
about the Antichrist. Yeah. And if I were to go
back and I look at the Left Behind series, it
feels like it's.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Portraying someone we know.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
He becomes president.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Just FYI.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Um but what's so funny is my part of my
family in that that like kooky crew um extended family
really really thought it was oprah.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
The antichrist wow i'm like like a black woman's gonna
have that much power ever.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Dang.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
Like, not because they're not powerful. It's because society wouldn't
let them give that kind of authority. But that was their.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Belief for a while. I love the whole... I think
Beyonce is actually now part of that category.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
I do. I mean, I find it really interesting that
a lot of times a woman gets really powerful and
all of a sudden... Heavy quotes around, like, respectable conservative
media is like, they must be witches. There's no other way.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
There's no other way.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
Which, again, I will say at least the Left Behind series,
whether or not it's because of lack of imagination or
they also felt like, no, there's no way that anybody
but a white man in power could be this powerful.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
He does portray the Antichrist.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
As a white man.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
So, you know. I think we're all on the same
page there.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Anyway, and then the last example we want to give
is addressing the zombie apocalypse. which pretty much like the
other types are multifaceted and could all be connected, such
as maybe a nuclear war creating zombies and diseases and
being caused by some ideal of a holy war.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
You know, you could put all that together. But zombies,
much like vampires.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
Or witches, because we've talked about this before, or werewolves,
seem to be a part of a cyclical horror fad
that becomes trendy at different times. Because like, Train to
Busan and all of those movies came out. World War Z, Zombieland,
they kind of all came out in a chunk together.
And they're still popular. So they have outdone the gamut

(11:52):
of most other fictional characters.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Villains? Would you call them villains? Just horror?

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Oh, that's the question. We don't need to get into
a morality debate about vampires right now. I wouldn't call
zombies villains because they typically don't have any brain function.

(12:20):
So they're more like.
A sad outcome of a virus.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
I won't call them villains.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
What, which movie, which zombie movie is it that they adapt?
Like they suddenly get faster and they figured out how
to do doors and they kind of figured out like.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Is that census? It's 28 days later. Maybe they were,
they were, it was 28 days later was new and
that they were fast.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Um, There's another one.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
I just remember they have this conversation, the survivors do,
about they're adapting.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
They're adapting to us, trying to get to us. And
I was like, huh, they are becoming more people-like.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
They're like raptors.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Ooh, oh my.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
With all of that, zombies are somehow created and become
a part of the threat of humanity. But we know
by this point that it's often a cautionary tale of
the downfall of humanity in itself. As Ryan Law, again,
who wrote the Ashtales.com article, says, Although it is usually
presented as a horror story, the zombie apocalypse can also

(13:30):
be a commentary on society, human nature, and our relationship
with technology. And of course, like we looked at George
Romero was like the beginning of the zombie movies and
having this whole conversation. Like it was a conversation of race,
if I remember, like a lot of things in society,
but this specifically about race in this conversation. And then
we had filmmakers like Quentin Tarantino who came in trying

(13:55):
to make his own kind of version of horror. And
when he did it, it was all just like, I
have a lot of opinions about him, but all like,
just gross-esque, like, type of shocking movie. And I remember
there was a quote about just, like, Romero, like, getting
up and leaving in the middle of the screening because
he didn't like it. And Quentin Tarantino took that as

(14:18):
a victory, saying he scared him so badly when in
actuality he was just disgusted because the whole point of
Tarantino's movie was to gross people out, to shock people.
I think there was a scene where he's trying to
rape somebody and his dick falls off, which is kind
of funny.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
You're like, okay.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
But that's obviously no real social commentary to that other
than he wanted to be gross and have that as
his conversation. So we know when it comes to things
like the zombie movies and especially as its.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Origins, it's a bigger conversation about all of this.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
The wave before the wave we're in now, those zombie
movies were largely about consumerism because it was like, I mean,
very basically. I could talk about this for a long time. But,
you know, it was essentially, a lot of them took
place in malls. And it would be your sort of
mindless zombie and that representing consumerism. But also kind of being,

(15:18):
I won't even say romanticized, but like some part of
you being like, that would be nice if my life was.
Heavy quotes again. More simple in terms of I just
have to survive, I guess. I mean, yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
And as Laws wrote also, it can be a conversation
about our relationship to technology.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
And I think that's like the newer version of things.
So it is like, OK, OK, interesting.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
So in the world of fantasy, these scenarios happen often.
But the question that we're having is how do women fare,
especially in these fantasies and horror situations? And we are
going to look at the entertainment factor because there's a
lot to be said about what people think may happen.
happen and how they see women in these scenarios as well.

(16:21):
So I want to go ahead and put this caveat.
Most of this conversation, unfortunately, is very cis, heteronormative in
the ideal that they want. Like, it's almost rendering it
back to gender norms, like classic gender binaries. So they
really heavily weighs on that. So that's the bigger conversation.
And that's bigger examples that we have. Of course, there's

(16:41):
new people who are doing things that are creating and
pushing the boundaries, of course.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
But we can't ignore.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
That that has been a perpetual part of the conversation,
especially when you look at like apocalyptic film where they use,
and we're gonna talk a little more, use women, whether
it's as victims or as the plot line, like, you know,
dead women or rescuing women and all those things. So
that does come into play as well. Now, like many

(17:10):
things in life, This question, how do women fare in
this situation, is a toss-up.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
It's a toss-up, y'all.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
There are those who see women being portrayed as mere tokens,
because you got to have some type of romantic tension, right?
So for one to survive a long time must be
somewhat capable, but not too capable. And an example that
we were given is the World War Z. It's been
a long time since I've seen that. I did remember, like,
I liked it, but it does point out the fact

(17:38):
that his wife, who kind of She's supposed to be
a scientist, I believe.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Do you remember the movie?

Speaker 1 (17:45):
I've never seen it.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Or the book? Oh, you've never seen it?

Speaker 1 (17:47):
That's surprising.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
No. I have question marks. Because it's definitely a horror
movie-ish thriller, I guess. Suspense?

Speaker 1 (17:56):
I don't think it's enough on my horror radar.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Okay, okay. It's got a few jump scares.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
But, like, the woman is with their family, and he's
trying to get to them, but he's needed because he's
so important to all these things. And, like, she has
this conversation with him, and then, like, she just stays
on the boat.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
Like, that's her entire character. Yeah. Who plays this. So that...
Or even Walking Dead. Like, you.

Speaker 3 (18:22):
As many, like, good characters are in there, it's, like,
the token. They're still not the actual main characters. They
might be a foil. Think about Glenn and Maggie. Like,
a lot of people hated Maggie at the end of that.
Because they blamed her for his death. And I didn't
even see that scene. I was not ready for that scene. Oh, no.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Is this spoilers?

Speaker 2 (18:40):
I don't know when that happened. I don't... It's later on,
but that... That's been a while, right?

Speaker 1 (18:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Anyway, things happen. Maggie gets blamed. All right.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
All right.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
We're going to go with that.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
And then you have the women being a product or hostages.
Think Mad Max or Handmaid's Tale. And yes, there is
female leads to this one. And even in the later
Mad Max, Furiosa and Fury Road. But there also lies
the abuse of women. as a subplot for most of
that uh even like the old school one with mel

(19:17):
gibson and tina turner come on her her her costume
is iconic but it still doesn't say much to uh
women i will say again we've had this debate and
i think had i already started on the show when
fury road came out.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yes because i've I got in big trouble at my
job the day I saw Fury Road and it all
worked out. But I remember very specifically the day I
saw Fury Road.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
Were we together? No.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
I was, no. It was before you. I was in Texas, actually.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
So I just remember being really upset.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
Not upset, but like disappointed because everybody had painted this,
all the men who hated this movie, talking about how
they didn't need her character.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
She made it worse.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
And in the end, it was like, but she's the
one that gets saved. Like, yeah, she has a pretty
badass role, but in the end, she still needed the
main character to save her.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
So why are you mad? This seems typical. What's happening?

Speaker 3 (20:21):
So even with the big, like, publicity to that, it
still didn't wow me and like, oh, look, there's this
feminist icon. And don't get me wrong, she is in
the feminist... Charlize Theron on her own.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
As an icon.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
But in that movie, it didn't... match the energy that
was given to me, but all those things. And talking
about all of this, writer Sable Aradia talks about these
types of scenarios in her post titled Sexism in the Apocalypse.
And she goes on to talk about how using these
types of scenarios are another addition to the harmful idea

(20:55):
that the only way women would survive is by being
protected by the good men or good guys from the
bad men.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
She writes, Yes, and she continues.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
The roving bands of raping marauders are orcs for writers.
You can feel okay about killing them because it's justified,
but I think it's perpetuating a dangerous, misogynistic, and misandrist
stereotype that has repercussions. The idea that feminism is dependent
upon civilization, and that if the authority of civilization were
to fall, women would become prey and men would descend

(21:42):
immediately into acting like gorillas competing for a harem. Even
Margaret Atwood, hailed as a powerful feminist voice, has fallen
victim to this stereotype.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
So the stereotypes obviously transcend the horror, but also into
the comedic ideals as well. Another example of women not
doing much or barely seen is from the apocalyptic comedy
of This is the End, where most of the people
and women specifically all get swallowed up in a sinkhole.

(22:13):
or the one woman that appears, Emma Watson, playing herself,
comes through but hurriedly runs away with an axe when
she realizes she may be stuck with an entire group
of strange men who make comments that are a little
too eager.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
So obviously she runs away.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
But there's definitely a lot of conversation because that is
one of the biggest critiques to these movies and to
these shows about apocalyptic scenarios is that, once again, women
are just property i.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Think i would say one of the things i noticed
when i was compiling uh the survival horror chapter in
our book you can go get wherever you get your
books your books is that i mean and we've been
doing it in this episode is that a lot of
times it's the one she's the woman like there's it's

(23:07):
all men and then there's the woman And then if
there are more women, then, yeah, they are usually some
type of property or something to be exploited or protected.
But they're not, like, fully realized characters.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Right.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
Right. Well, with all of those risks and uncertainties, we
do have some, as you said, who have done better.
been treated better, existed better, such as the ladies from Zombieland.
Some trickery and deception could keep you alive a bit longer,
you know, according to them. However, another article written by

(23:46):
Ray Alexandra titled How to Be a Woman in the Apocalypse,
according to male-dominated movies, so this is somewhat sarcastic, does
give praise to one woman, again, that one, who plays
it smart and safe, and that's Michelle from 10 Cloverfield Lane.
I have not seen this movie. Have you seen this one?

Speaker 1 (24:04):
I have seen this one.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
This one you have. I like that we've seen one
of each at this point now. And she writes this.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
The protagonist of 10 Cloverfield Lane, Michelle, played by Mary
Elizabeth Winstead, offers a damn near perfect guidebook on how
to realistically survive the apocalypse.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Thank you, J.J. Abrams, she says.

Speaker 3 (24:24):
She knows when to be patient and when to fight.
Her mind is always working overtime, and she's crafty enough
to make her own hazmat suit and gas mask. Thanks
to these factors, as well as taking the time to
heal from a physical injury, Michelle ultimately outwits the shady
doomsday survivalist who ran her off the road and held
her in his bunker. On top of all of that,

(24:46):
Michelle shows us that even when you do finally find
out that the Earth has been invaded by humanity-destroying aliens,
it is best not to freak out. Just quietly get
into the nearest car and bravely head out to find
other survivors. So we do have some. I like that
she wrote that this is our guidebook.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
You know, now that you mentioned it, yeah, that is true.
Because it's like a guy's trying to protect her, but
really he was keeping her, holding her captive. And she
had to kind of outsmart him and then gets out
in the world. Turns out he was right, but hey.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
She was like, nah, I'm better off. I'm good.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Without you, thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
Which brings us to those who think women may be
the last to remain, according to our entertainment. The Last
of Us is talk full of women leadership. The survival
of women is not guaranteed. And it talks about how
it is stacked against women.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
But.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
The fact that they're all these that exist. Are they
all great?

Speaker 1 (25:57):
No. I like that, though.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
But they're leaders. But they're leaders. So we have Marlene.
We have Kathleen. We have Maria. And Ellie herself, of course.
And we're not talking about The Last of Us 2 yet, Annie.
Not yet. I know. You really want to.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Well, we can't.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
You know what? I'll give you the exception.

Speaker 3 (26:18):
Who would you add from The Last of Us 2?

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Abby. Obviously. Is she a leader for her group, though?

Speaker 1 (26:26):
She's a leader within her organization, I would say. She's, like,
first pick of the team. You want Abby. Also Mel.
But that's a different story. Okay, I won't go into
it too much. But, yeah, I mean, I do like...
There are a lot of women leaders in The Last

(26:48):
of Us series. I kind of like, because I think
the whole point of The Last of Us, we jokingly
called our crew when we did Betrayal at the House
on the Hill, that campaign, that board game. We called
our crew The Least of Us. Because it's like, how
did you survive? You probably had to do some things
that weren't great.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
I didn't know that. I didn't know that's how we
called ourselves to that.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
You chose it i assumed that was me.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
That was my partner i'm not that creative i thought
it was you.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Uh but anyway so i like that you know you
see the kind of the good and bad of them
and you understand like that's one of the most painful
and wonderful parts of the last of us because you're
like okay i get it maybe i don't like.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
It i mean that's the whole point of end of
times content, right? Like, this is the end of humanity.
How far do we go? How good or how bad
is it? Yeah, and with some of those great examples,
there's also the argument that many of the women leaders
or survivors are often white, perpetuating the idea of white saviors.

(27:56):
One thesis written by Sarah Austin wrote about this, specifically
titled White Girls in the Apocalypse, Race, Gender, and Sexuality
at the End of the World. And as the title implies,
it also takes on the more stereotypical heteronormative standards as well.
So it's a very cis-heteronormative, gender-binding type of ideal. So

(28:16):
Austin writes, To maintain the cultural status quo while focusing
on a girl power heroine, the post-apocalyptic white girl savior
subgenre has specific markers that center around white women's sexuality
and reproduction as hallmarks for the survival of humanity at large.
This combination of traits intended to make characters relatable and

(28:38):
aspirational for a young adult audience, also acts as a
form of capitalist activism by exploiting white feminism and girl
power rhetoric to generate viewers, ad revenue, and licensed products.
These texts and media maintain the importance of white women's
sexuality and roles as mothers in late-stage capitalism while denying

(28:59):
the full humanity of queer, trans, black, indigenous, and people
of color, or BIPOC, and the other women marked by
differences from an idealized heterosexual white identity. So it does
say a lot to that. Now, again, we're going to
give kudos to the last of us who really kind
of changed some of those ideas by bringing in a
queer character and.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
All of these things.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
So we definitely see a little differences in that type
of conversation. But for the most part, a chunk of
all of these kind of like girl power end of
times conversations heroism, fighting for society, movies, it is white, cis.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
Heterosexual girls.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
So in her article, Austin gives examples of Katniss from
Hunger Games, Buffy from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and even
Emma Swan from Once Upon a Time.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
I was like, ah, look at that.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
I don't think of that as end of times, but
there is a lot of the times where they're trying
to end the world.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Or take over the world.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
And make it theirs. So, like, they destroyed the fairy lands, essentially. Oh, okay.
And they come to a different world, and then she
wants to take over that world.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Got you.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
So, all those things. So, kind of.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
And with that, she points out their transparent attempt to
be inclusive by writing... I argue that the post-apocalyptic white
girl savior is always haunted by race and queerness. These
side characters make the reader feel as if the trope
is inclusive and allows the subgenre to access BIPOC and
queer identities to the service of white supremacy and heteronormativity,

(30:41):
building on the cultural narrative of white women as universally
welcoming and mothering. The girl savior must be near these
forms of differences but cannot embody them. since she is
chosen for her lineage or special qualities, which are inextricably
tied to her heterosexual white femininity. Buffy, for example, is
both more effective and more civilized than the first black slayer, Sanaya,

(31:04):
which means restless, apparently. Despite the Savior's straight, white, unmarked identity,
her friends and helpers, such as Buffy's lesbian best friend Willow,
demonstrate her open-mindedness and universal appeal. So, Her entire paper
is a fascinating read. It's a pretty long paper. And
she does clearly show the continued white savior trope within

(31:25):
these shows or books. And she, like I said, gives
true blood as an example of that as well. You
have that heterosexual white girl, innocent white girl, a fairy
at that, coming to save, but all her, like, cronies,
her sidekicks, are from the BIPOC community, essentially, as well
as usually queer community. So, like, it does hang on to, like, yes,

(31:49):
it's about her sidekicks, but they can't be the embodiment
of the Savior, obviously. In it, she also talks about
the different tropes, such as the love triangles and why
that's necessary, as well as motherhood that is heavily used
in order to tie the feeling of humanity and emotions
into a plot. But still has to stay within that

(32:11):
heteronormative standards. You cannot stray from that at all. And
of course, a part of that conversation with things like
vampires or all those is about having children and not
being able to be a mother.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
We know that. We've talked about that. Not siring a child. Huh.

Speaker 3 (32:31):
And that's part of like, you can't do this. Which motherhood,
if that is something that's important to you, can break
a relationship for sure. But it definitely has this level
of incompletion for those characters.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
So, you know, you do it like Twilight and get
pregnant with a vampire baby, whatever. Look.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
It's coming. It's coming, Annie.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
I'm waiting for the day. Oh.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
And with that, actually, we stumbled upon another article, and
this was written by Nicole. It doesn't have her last name,
so I'm not leaving it out. Her name is Nicole,
and it's for beyondblackwhite.com. And the article is titled and asks,
Would Black Women Survive a Zombie Apocalypse? So she talks
specifically about survival skills and how she imagines people may

(33:30):
be planning the end of times. And she brings on
good points about things that can lessen the chances for
anyone's survival. So she talks about children or having a
lot of children. And I think about the fact that
I have a pet and how.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
There's no way I.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
Could remain alive for long if I try to keep peaches.
Because if we're being hunted down by zombies or just
bad peoples in general, she's going to bark.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
She's a barker. And then she hides with me. And
I'm like, what?

Speaker 3 (33:59):
So she's going to give me away immediately after the barking.
And I guess, like, again, when we talk about, like,
young babies or toddlers that don't know why they're in
this emergency situation and cry when they need things, like,
that's their communication.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
That could be a problem.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
This reminds me of... I haven't watched it yet, but
I have it. Quiet Place Day 1 with the cat.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
Oh, with the cat. Well, like the Quiet Place 2
where she has the box. I mean, the first one.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
With the baby.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
The first one or the second one? Both.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
Both.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
The second one she has the baby in a box. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
And so when it's born, she immediately puts it into
that box with the oxygen tank, which is already running out.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
I'm like, okay.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
That's genius.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
How do you know for sure without testing?

Speaker 1 (34:48):
Okay. Okay.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
Willing suspension of disbelief. This is what makes these movies amazing. So,
you know, those things I do think about as well.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
But she never really.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
Nicole never really gives any definitive answer outside of the
fact that beyond Black women know how to survive, point blank,
and they know how to push forward.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
As Nicole writes, I'm a survivor. I'm not going to
give up. Destiny Child right there.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
If nothing else, Black women are survivors. For better or worse,
we pride ourselves collectively on the ability to make a
dollar out of 15 cents. The tenacity would be one
of the key ways Black women could survive. In the
face of adversity, we plant our feet and get that
work done.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Additionally, I could count on.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
Black women to make the canned food rations and swirl
meat post-apocalypse to be rather tasty given the apocalyptic circumstances.
It is a talent to be able to cook just
with what you have and make it good. There's only
a handful of people that I know that can do that.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Chefs, obviously. But, like, that I've known in real life. And, yeah.
I'm not one of those people.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
And, however, Nicole does say, like many others, can't imagine
that humanity in itself would be so kind or giving.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
And with all of those uncertainties, you know, could they?

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Who could survive in this scenario? Who is going to
survive in those scenarios?

Speaker 2 (36:13):
So. She gives advice.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
So if you want to go back and look at
that article that I just mentioned, you should go back.
She's just like, you know, if you're into witchcraft, get
those herbs, ladies. And I'm like, yeah, that's actually really smart.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Get those herbs.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
With all of that, because we're kind of going to
come back into, I guess, the real thing. scenario like
could this actually be could we survive if this was
a real scenario so do you have any characters annie
that you would regard as good examples of surviving or
just iconic women of the apocalypse yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
I mean i i i hesitate because like good examples
again i think a lot of times apocalypse media is
about like how you hold on to your humanity when
you're in this situation so There are examples of people
doing that. But it's still like you've faced so many losses.

(37:13):
I would say Dina, who is from The Last of
Us 2. I won't give any further spoilers, but just. Yeah, Dina.
Clara Redfield from Resident Evil 2. She's a good one.

(37:34):
Maybe Heather from Silent Hill 3, which, by the way,
I recently found out. I don't know how I didn't
know this, but there's a Silent Hill 2 movie that's
based on Silent Hill 3, which is one of many
funny things about that movie. And I watched it, and

(37:54):
I had the time of my life, to be honest.
You know, Carrie M. Moss is in it.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Carrie M.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Moss is probably like, please never bring this up again.
But speaking of Carrie Ann Moss, Trinity from The Matrix. Yeah.
She's a good one. I do think Maria from The
Last of Us and Marlene. It's just so tragic. All
of it's so tragic. I'm struggling to think of one.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
That's a spoiler alert.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
Yeah, those are some good ones. Again, I haven't seen
all of Fallout. Obviously, the Fallout is just beginning. But
the main character, she seems to be... Again, she's also
very wholesome. And she's also very white. So I wonder
if this is the same context as we were talking about.
I'm trying to think because, yeah, in all the horror movies,

(38:50):
the train to Busan was a pregnant woman with.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
A little girl.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
That survived but it was based on her father and
the father of the uh or the husband of the
pregnant woman like that really helped so yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
I mean this is really interesting too in terms of
um the the fiction piece we do uh once a
month that i wrote when i was right out.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
Of college yeah you're We're pretty sure the last of
us people stole it from you, which they've never read.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
This, so somehow.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
They absolutely didn't, but I like to blame them as
if they did. But it is interesting in terms of that.
Instead of being a Joel and Ellie, it's a woman
and her son.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yeah, which is interesting. The flip.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, but it does have a lot of these things
in it. It's hard to escape.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
It is.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
So with that, let's ask the real question. How will
women do in an apocalypse?

Speaker 2 (39:57):
For real.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
In real life, Annie. So in a zombie type of scenario,
do you think we could survive?

Speaker 1 (40:06):
No, I don't think I could. I've thought about this.
We've talked about it on the show. I've already I'm
in Atlanta. I would be in huge trouble. I mean,
if the CDC something happens there, I'm already infected. But
like to get out of the city and then you're

(40:26):
dealing with like dwindling supplies because, you know, in a
city you have more, but there's more danger. I've thought
about it a lot. I don't think I would make it.
I'm not going to. I think I'd make it maybe
a little bit longer than some people, but not very long.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Not very long.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
How about you?

Speaker 3 (40:43):
I don't think I would make it either, but I
think I would make it just doing the whole like
don't come out hiding.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
You know what?

Speaker 3 (40:50):
Y'all stick around because we're going to do a very
informative and obviously very realistic quiz.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Definitely.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
To see if we could survive at the end of this.
But according to Megan A.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
Armstrong, she says maybe. Maybe.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
But it definitely isn't a great set for women. In
her article for International Feminist Journal of Politics titled, Why
is the zombie apocalypse so terrible for women, gender, militarism
and ontological insecurity at the end of the world? She
explores the topic with the help from the book and
film World War Z, which I have now referenced twice

(41:24):
because it's in several of the articles. She takes a
deep look at the basis of the heavy militarization of
the situation, how they take on the very masculine, violent
role or route as a solution to the problem.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
She writes, This is a common theme in apocalypse narratives,
the chaos of the immediate aftermath of the disasters leading
to a Hobbesian state of nature. What we imagine to
be a robust, stable civilization can be taken down and
fast by a single destabilizing element. Apocalyptic visions of the
future can help to articulate present anxieties and offer hypothetical responses.

(42:00):
They create a space for an imaginary future in which
characters map out a means of survival. Such visions allow
audiences to imagine themselves in the narrative and therefore produce
certain kinds of normative, legitimate responses. However, in WWZ, World
War Z, The aggressive, militarized response to the zombie threat,
led by a particularly masculinized hero figure, departs in some

(42:23):
ways from other examples of the genre.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Right, so.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
We're jumping into the fact that, again, it's kind of
like the one versus the total, which I don't think
is too different.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
But during the beginning of World.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
War Z, it kind of was different, especially if it
was like an international. So I don't think it happens
in the U.S. It happens somewhere else first, which a
lot of things do take place. But sometimes it just
happens in the U.S.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
First.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
And the article talks about the gendered role specifically. Once
the zombies strike, however... This, and they're talking about all
the stuff that had happened previously, is undone, and Karen
remains with the children, the wife, as we were talking about,
as Jerry travels the world in search of the key
to eliminating the zombie threat. This suggests that WWZ, like

(43:08):
so much of the zombie genre, functions to stabilize gender
roles in a time when traditional gender roles have been
increasingly destabilized. This return is, interestingly, informed by the more
progressive gendered order depicted at the outset of the film.
Jerry is neither aggressive nor violent, but first and foremost,
a family man who will give up his career to

(43:29):
protect his family and fight for their survival when necessary.
And she continues explaining why this is all important, saying...

(44:01):
There are some for whom the normal way of life,
the status quo upheld in the extermination of the zombie,
was never conducive to survival, but their stories are not
often told in zombie narratives. WWZ does reveal that certain
kinds of families may survive the zombie threat while others
will not. To occupy normative gender role is not enough

(44:23):
to guarantee survival, and here we see how the knowledge
system of zombie reveals itself to be not only gendered,
but racialized. So she goes into a deep dive on that.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
It's a very fascinating paper.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
She really goes deep into this conversation, almost like this
is a societal tell on warning us that feminism is.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Ruining our lives and it's going to kill us because
of zombies.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
I got... I can't help it. I got a couple
more points about The Last of Us. Go ahead. One
is that... And this is so tricky, and I actually
do have an episode that's coming out about this that
I wrote forever ago, but because it's a pain, I've
just been putting it off. But I feel like the

(45:22):
message that was intended at the end of The Last
of Us, a lot of people took.
Not, they took it very differently. And so, yes, they were,
they were like angry. Oh, she's a girl. She can't survive.
Like she's a young, this is wrong. When I don't

(45:42):
think that's what the actual material was saying, but people
were taking that, um, and using it as like, oh,
this is why I, this can't be right. I hate this.
And I've even heard that in terms of the violence that,
that Ellie does the main character, one of the main characters. Um,

(46:04):
like I don't, I'd feel like this is irredeemable. I'm like,
you seem to be cool when Joel did it. I
find this really interesting, but like those, those divides, we're
going to, we're going to see how that plays out.
But also I've been in the first time I went
to drag con, which is a huge convention and, Here

(46:27):
in Atlanta, that's kind of like Comic-Con, very nerdy and
all this stuff. I made a mistake. And I went
to how to survive a zombie apocalypse panel. And all
of them were like conservative dudes that were saying, you know,
liberals are all going to die. And then we'll go

(46:50):
back to the right way.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
The right way.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
The natural way.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
The natural way, as God intended, obviously.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
Right. Anyway, anyway, Armstrong concludes, when we read artifacts such
as WWZ with attention to what they reproduce and normalize
through the zombie as knowledge system, we can understand negotiations
of ontological insecurity as they are enmeshed with gender and
race and remain attuned to what responses they render intelligible

(47:16):
and possible. Here we can see the ways in which
anxieties over how Western civilization survives the overwhelming threat of
the zombie are materialized and resolved. The zombie reveals what
and who is considered necessary for civilization to survive, as
well as who will be abandoned. The sense of contemporary

(47:37):
feminism as a threat to the male self comes through
in the negotiation of a kind of masculinity that is
responsive to changes in gender norms and expectations, but still
positions masculinity as a savior. Yes, also in every Survival
horror game. Pregnancy. Oh, my God. That's disturbingly not that

(48:01):
far off. It's dangerous.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
And then also that conversation of, like, who has access
to things and trying to get those things just in cases.
There was, of course, one response, and I think it
was a really interesting idea, is that Rider Sammy Eastwood
watching some of these horrors. And we've talked about this
in video gaming, like these impromptu crop tops that make

(48:23):
no sense in trying to defend your land property or self.
She says that women won't survive the apocalypse thanks to
our clothes. Like that's the beginning of her article. And
she talks about those conversations of like, why are we
dressed like this? Like we couldn't wear ballet slippers. Like
no wonder we're falling over ourselves and dying when the
killer is chasing us because those hills do not work.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
When you're running in dirt.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
You lose them. You use them as a stabbing device.
But yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
But also, I can't walk in them. So, like, breaking
my ankle does not work.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
Well, and by that point, it's too close. You don't
want to be that close to them.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Right.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Exactly. I did the parody video just recently about how
the woman gets a complex because the serial killer keeps
passing her by and ignores her to kill everybody else.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
And she's like, why not? Why not me? Anyway. But yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
That could be a problem. That could get us killed,
some say. But, again, all this may be upon. Many
have said that the way of survival is actually... the
gendered idea of femininity. It might be a savior to this.
History even shows that more women survived some of the
most difficult times. From a 2018 Complex article, journalist Victoria L.

(49:38):
Johnson writes, Scientists over at the University of Southern Denmark
analyzed times of feast or famine in the past 300 years,
including the Swedish famine of 1772 to 1773, life expectancy
of enslaved people in Trinidad in 1813, the 1845 Irish
potato famine, the measles epidemic in Iceland in 1842 and 1882,

(49:59):
as well as the 1933 Ukraine famine. And there was
always one truth that remained true on average. Women lived
longer than men. And this is regardless of age as well.
So she is actually referring to a study titled Women
Live Longer Than Men Even During Severe Famine and Epidemics.
In that research paper, they write, women are the life

(50:23):
expectancy champions. They can expect to live longer than men
almost anywhere in the world today. This pervasive inequality has
intrigued researchers for decades. The cumulative corpus of research supports
the conclusion that the gap has biological underpinnings modulated by
social and environmental conditions. And what's more, it's during the

(50:43):
hard times that women still outlive men. So they continue,
The conditions experienced by the people in the analyzed populations
were horrific. Even though the crisis reduced the female survival
advantage and life expectancy, women still survived better than men.
In all populations, men had equal or higher mortality than

(51:04):
women across almost all ages. A substantial part of the
overall female advantage and life expectancy was due to survival
differences among infants. Further support of the hypothesis of an
overall ability of women to withstand high mortality crisis better
than men comes from a different mortality measure. From all populations,
the extreme age, the age to which 5% of the

(51:25):
population survived, was higher for females than for males.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
And writer Sarah Youngblood Gregory writes specifically about the need
for a feminine approach to survival in their article for Cosmopolitan.
And here's a quote from Gender roles are obviously socially constructed,
and yet their conventions shape our lives and justify exclusion
and oppression, even in our fantasy worlds. Femininity, which I'm

(51:50):
defining in a traditional sense as relating to women, softness, motherhood,
physical weakness, emotional communication, collaboration, and submissiveness, is often an
affront to the gritty, survivalist mentality of the apocalypse genre,
which in a COVID era, climate change ravaged Earth, has
captured the imagination of so many.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, and they go on to talk about how this, though,
can actually help survival rates and how being able to
listen and communicate and like standing in a group, that humanity,
which is often seen as feminine, can actually bring on
a survival rate. tactic and bring on more for being

(52:32):
able to survive. They also go on to talk about
writers from the marginalized community and how they understand how
their leading heroine doesn't reject womanhood, but embrace it. And
they talk about how it comes from a depiction of
real life. So here's another quote from Gregory. Butler, the author,
and Brown's depiction of womanhood lean on the true history

(52:54):
of women surviving world ending events. Writer Fannie Cho argues
in her latest work that the apocalypse is nothing new.
It happened over and over again to marginalized people. And
they conclude, true femininity is a tool for better, more
just worlds. Through community care, communication, collaboration, critical thinking, and empathy,
femininity has already survived the worst and will continue to

(53:16):
do so. Maybe not on TV, but always where it counts.
And yeah, I think that was an interesting conversation because yeah,
like we often see femininity portrayed as a weakness. So
they get hysterical and cry and can't move on and
they don't want to survive anymore.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
And that's not necessarily how that goes. Like you, the.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
Horrible opposite portrayal of like an angry mother that needs
to get revenge versus like the mother who just gives
up instead of the in-between who sucks it up and
is like, all right, been through this. I know how
we can get through this.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
And there've been a lot of, we've done past episodes
on this about a lot of studies about pain endurance
and women versus men. And just like long-term endurance. And
women usually come out on top in those studies.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
And yeah, I just want to kind of head on
to what I think is interesting, specifically when it comes
to the religious apocalyptic literature. This was my secondary in education,
I think I might have said before.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Apocalyptic literature.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
But I find it fascinating because this one actually comes
from the westendbiblicalchapel.org, and they talk about Revelation, and they
talk about the four women present of the apocalypse. And
I believe there's several depictions in books often used. And
these are all going to sound familiar, but one of
them is the Jezebel, or Jezebel. which is a she-devil,

(54:55):
and they describe it in their resources that she is
the leader of a church for idolatry and immorality, and
that she was guided by the familiar spirits of the
wicked queen of Jezebel of the Old Testament. If you
know Jezebel, she gets a pretty bad rap, you know.

(55:17):
Then we have woman clothed with the sun. And apparently
I think she is the better version. So there's always like.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
A yin and a yang.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
I'm using Asian ideology. But this woman represents a corporate body.
She's the nation of Israel. So remember that. She has
given birth to the man-child who is the Messiah. So
that's the other one.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
And then the harlot. The harlot, she's present in a
lot of like apocalyptic type. Supernatural?

Speaker 3 (55:47):
She comes up a lot in that. So this is
the third woman that's designated, and she's the mother of
all prostitutes and the abomination of the earth. This is
all in all caps when they describe these people, by
the way.

Speaker 1 (55:59):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
So you'd be forewarned. Extra wary.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
And then we had Bride of the Lamb, who is,
once the whore of the Antichrist is destroyed, she is
the Bride of Christ.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Who is displayed.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (56:17):
So in a lot of representations, I think we've talked
about this, there's the Trinity, and it's often the church
is the bride.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
To that.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
So there's so many conversations. But I thought that was
interesting because that does come into play in our regular
types of things, like supernatural, like we talked about, because
there's how many apocalyptic situations do they have in their
15 seasons?

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Every season. Every season?

Speaker 3 (56:41):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Yes. This is the TV show, by the way, everyone.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Oh, yes, yes. Popping back up.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
I just saw someone's reaction to watching all 15 seasons,
like she was having a time. But I thought it
was interesting because that does play a lot in what we.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Are hearing today. I know the Bride of Israel, all
of that, that's a big conversation we're having, especially when
we do come back and talk a little bit about
Project 2025 and trying to come back to these roles again.

Speaker 3 (57:11):
Those gender roles that they think is holy in order
to fix things, but also telling us that all of
these things, such as natural disasters and such, being a
thing of the apocalypse and who we should be watching
out for. So something to take note of. I did

(57:31):
say that we were going to talk about whether or
not we're going to survive.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
I sent you two quizzes, Annie. Did you take them?
I did.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
The first one. How long would you survive the ultimate
zombie quiz?

Speaker 1 (57:45):
I got five months. I made it five months, but
no more.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
I think I lived four months longer than you.

Speaker 1 (57:54):
Good for you.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
I'm going to eat your body. I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
You don't like the taste. Too much cheap light beer.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
I don't know. Beer chili is great. And there's a
beer can chicken or something.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Oh, gosh.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
And then this one, this is the BuzzFeed quiz. How
would you make it in The Last of Us? How
long would you make it in The Last of Us Apocalypse?
How long did you make it?

Speaker 1 (58:23):
It said 90 years. And that I would die of
natural causes.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
90 years? That's not even possible, is it? I guess
it is. But....

Speaker 1 (58:36):
I took it twice.

Speaker 3 (58:38):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
And I, like, the first time I did, like I said,
the last time we took a quiz like this, and
I was like, you know, I'm in between these two.
And the first time I took it, I got one day.
So I'm on the, I think I'm like, I'm on
the ledge of living for a long time or dying
very quickly.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
One or the other. Either you're immediately going to die
or you'll survive forever if you can survive that one day.
I think so. Okay.

Speaker 3 (59:04):
Mine says 30 years so I feel like that's a
good time after 30 years of barely surviving you trip
on some fungi and a heart of fungi people come
to you.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
I'm devoured by fungi people.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
That would be sad.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
That would be sad. I'm like, oh, no. Well, I
don't get a natural death, I guess. That's fine. That's fine.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
It turns out that we do kind of survive-ish. I
do like the people who are like, who?

Speaker 2 (59:30):
Because they did write that. I was like, immediately. I
want immediately out. Like, Caroline and I have a whole.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
Pact in case a zombie apocalypse happens. So, there you go, guys.
That is a very shortened could we survive? Let's look
at what society and entertainment tells us could we survive
it's a toss-up.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
I mean you know like took us an hour long
to get to about yeah toss up because it is
that's kind of what the apocalypse is about i guess
although you know religious like the rapture in theory if
you've done everything right you'll be all right that we'll

(01:00:19):
have to come back and talk more about some of
that stuff but for now um that is what we
have to say about women and the apocalypse please let
us know if you have any thoughts on this if
you have a favorite apocalyptic uh entertainment uh peace media

(01:00:39):
or just any suggestions about what what more we should
talk about about this um you can email us at
stuff media mom stuff at iheartmedia.com or hello at stuff
will never told you.com uh you can find us on
blue sky at mom stuff podcast or on instagram and
tiktok at stuff will never told you we're also on

(01:01:01):
youtube we have a tea public store and we have
a book you can get wherever you get your books
and we do talk about some of this stuff in
there uh thanks as always to our super producer christina
our executive producer maya and our contributor joey thank you
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I never told
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