March 23, 2026 • 38 mins
SMNTY's on top of the world! Since the dawn of people climbing mountains, women have been there, though their clothing and existence in the space has long been policed. In this classic episode, we trace the triumphs and tragedies of women mountaineers, and efforts to make it more inclusive.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Smantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Stuff I Never told you Production by
Heart Radio, and today we are bringing back an episode
that was near and dear to me women climbing mountains
because I went down a wild rabbit hole during the
(00:31):
pandemic and I actually got sucked back into it again
like a year later.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Did our recent famous around the world kind of bring
you in a little bit because we talked about our
recent glaciologist who was mountain climbing for her studies.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yes, it was part of it.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I mean that actually came later than the second rabbit hole,
but it's like it's always there.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Waiting to pull me back, because yes, it's just so fascinating.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I don't know quite why, but I love it. Adventures
adventures maybe yeah, the danger it's dangerous. Well, please enjoy
this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and
(01:24):
aw coome to stuff I Never told you Protection of iHeartRadio,
and today we're taking a bit of a break. It
wasn't intentional from the dark news of day to talk
about mountaineering and not to say that we aren't going
(01:48):
to talk about some dark things.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So I guess this is your content warning.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I think it's nothing major, but we are going to
be talking about death in mountaineering.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
And so this kind of came about because I recently.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Went down a mountaineering rabbit hole because of a free
Paramount Plus trial. I could go into the details, I won't,
but basically I ended up watching a lot of documentaries
about mountaineering.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I have so many mountaineering facts.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'm very surprised I did not bombard you with them
the last time we hung out, because I've the last
few times i've been out with people and I've had
a couple of.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Drinks, I'm like, do you know about the des zone.
It's it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Bt Doves. Paramount Plus is not a sponsor for me.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
They are not a not currently, not currently, but hey.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
I need a subscription, so if you want to.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Well that's the thing, I'm such a cheapskate. When I
get the free trial, I watch things I would never
watch otherwise. And this is how this happened. I wouldn't
have watched these documentaries otherwise. I did enjoy them, clearly.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I mean, yeah, you're like, guess what we're gonna do
an episode of Mountain And I was like, oh, okay,
here we go. I was like, have you heard about
the desta You're like what you did not ask me that?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yes, but you were surprised when I told you that
I've been on this mountaineering rabbit.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Not as surprised because your mind is unique and like
to go down mountains.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I'm sure likes to go down mountains. My mind is unique,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And I actually have been mountaineering, Okay, not in anything
like this that we're specifically going to.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Talk about, but I have climbed.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Uh. I have had to deal with a climatization and
altitude poisoning.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Actually, oh wow, of course, Oh it's horrible. Don't recommend it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
But I watched these documentaries and I couldn't stop thinking
about the mindset of climbing a mountain. When the death
rate is one four, which is what it is for
K two, I think, oh, look.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
My mountaineering facts. They're coming to us. Here we go.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
However, I do want to point out because a lot
of mountaineers, I really don't want to do you in
justice if you're listening, say that like statistics numbers wise,
and we can argue about like the mindset specifically, but
you're actually more likely to die in.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
A cra accident.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
But anyway, I think that's more of a numbers game
than and anyway I'm getting I'm already going off trail.
But when asked about like why would you climb Mount Everest,
famous British britishman George Lee Mallory, who is one of
the first to summit, if not the first to summit
Mount Everest, said because it's there and so here we are,
(04:31):
here we are.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I feel like that's a lot of people like really
have this level of seeing it and like, yes, I
want because it's not it's dangerous, and it's it's so
like incredibly hard to train. People don't understand all of that,
and it seems doable. So that's I'm going to climb
my Mount Everest, or I'm going to climb Machu Pichu,
(04:52):
like all of these amazing destinations without understanding the true
like behind the scenes of it. Just doing the at
twelve the Appalachi is pretty difficult, but it's not the
level as you know again Mount Everest, Mancha Picci like that,
there's a whole different level mindset, but it seems attainable
because if you can walk for those who are able
body enough to walk or even access a trail.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Yeah, it seems like this could be something.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yeah, have you ever thought about it?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
I think I had actually said I was going to
climb something. I forgot which one it is. I'm pret
sure it wasn't Mount Everest, because I was like, I
know better than that, but because I also love hiking
and a long going hot I like, again, this is
one of the things, like I can walk, sure, so.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Let me try to do this.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I love hiking, I love seeing great views, and I
don't mind backpacking, so let's try this. Because I definitely
can't rock climb. You know, I'm like, well, I thought
about skydiving, but that seems a little even more perilous
in my head, like all of that. So I'm sure
I have and you know, it's kind of that old
like mid life crisis.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
I'm going to climb on top of the mountain.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think I've thought about it, but never seriously,
or at least Everest, because I did do whatever. I
can't even remember the mountains name, but I have pictures
and it looks great. But I don't think I ever
seriously considered it, and that surprises a lot of people,
(06:18):
and I tell them because I guess I'm kind of
like I'm making like a finger gun motion.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Oh no, no, no, no, it's finger guns. Excuse you, no, geez,
so important.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And we're going to talk about We're going to talk
about a lot of accessibility issues, and of course we're
gonna keep this intersectional as we want to do. Uh
And because of that, like I know, people get really
riled up about this.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So I'm going to start with a lot of disclaimers.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Okay, so we are not going to really touch on
the environmental impacts and a harm that the commercialization of
mountaineering has done, but we do want to acknowledge that
is a.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Big part of the conversation and it should be.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And also never ever ever want to undervalue the work
of the surpas and high altitude porters who honestly make
it possible for most folks in this commercialization space and
have risk serialized and sometimes died, especially when it comes
to yes, this capitalizing climbing of mountains and government policies
(07:23):
that place profits over safety, but also the systems of
poverty that might make that an option considered in the
first place. This is not that podcast that does exist,
because I have listened to it, I have watched it,
and I think that.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Is an incredibly important part of all this, and that's.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Why we had to mention it at the top, even
though that's not really what we're talking about today. Also
want to mention plenty of indigenous peoples and regions with
these mountains regularly transverse high altitudes. Maybe not summiting, but
worth mentioning, because a lot of the people we're talking
about are kind of like getting to the top, taking
the picture going down when.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Other people might be doing it all the time, or
like something close.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
I mean, one of the things that I've been seeing
on social media slash techtok is definitely a lot of
Native Haaians being like, please stop doing this. You don't
know what you're doing, and you're causing dangers and then
becoming a whole risk and then having our people look
like the enemies for telling you not to do this,
and then also the enemies when we're like, we're not
going to risk our lives because you did something that
(08:24):
we told you not to do.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yes, yes, I mean, with everything we talk about, I
would just encourage everyone to do your research and to
be respectful and yeah, there's a safety question in this,
and you should take that very seriously because other people's
lives and well beings are on the line other than yours.
(08:48):
Another thing worth mentioning mountaineering is oftentimes, but not always,
extremely inaccessible in terms of price of equipment and of travel,
So that's something of So a lot of the stories
about mountaineering, and especially around tragedy in these situations are
a bit muddled for a number of reasons, and we
are going to talk about one specific case, but so
(09:10):
just keep that in mind and final disclaimer, we are
not experts, and please do not yell at us. I
know commercial climbing really gets people angry, and I get it.
We're doing more of a history of women who have
climbed mountains and also occurrent I'll look at what's going
on right now. And also we are sticking to basic
mountaineering facts when it comes to the women we're talking about,
(09:32):
So it could be they have something less than savory
in their past.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
It could be that they're worth talking about more.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
And if you know more about that, please let us know,
because clearly I'm eager.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
For mountaineering facts. I'm like just ready to receive them.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
He's ready for trivia.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I am, I am imm all right, So let's start
with the definition. What is mountaineering exactly? Well, actually, huh.
(10:08):
It is not as simple as you think and is
up for debate. Most seem to agree that it typically
involves traversing snow and possibly ice and glaciers to reach
a summit, which is called summitting. Others define it as
scaling a mountain. Sometimes rock climbing does get roped into it.
I think we're more specifically talking about summitting, ice, snow,
(10:29):
glaciers involved, though, So.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Would Tom Cruise be a mountaineer.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
The question of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I would love if I became like you know how
on trivia teams you have like your sports person, you're
like music person.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I would love if I was a mountain I bet
he is, Yes, I bet he.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Well, I just wondered because I just remember that picture
of him like hanging from the edge, and I know
that that's free climbing essentially, but I'm guessing it's probably
roped up into this. Again, people need to be trained.
I cannot emphasize this enough. People really do things on
a silly idea and not researching it heavily.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Please don't do this.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
So, of course, numbers are sort of hard to track,
but according to some data from the Outdoor Industry Association,
there are about two million climbers in the US, and
as far as women, we couldn't find a general number,
but data from specific mountains in the case, it ranges
from ten to twenty percent, but has been on the rise.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yes, and since the first known summit of Everest in
nineteen fifty three, only about eight percent of those who
have summited Everest have been women. Many women have reported
misogyny and getting questioned at every turn. And I will
say researching this, I found a lot of troubling. I
have an anxiety around articles that go to a strictly
(11:52):
biological sense.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Oh right, why things are the way they are?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
That makes me really yeah, that makes me really nervous.
There are a lot about this. A lot of them
say women and men evolved equally to be able to
summit mountains, and there were scientific articles about that, but
I just felt really uncomfortable talking about it, to be honest.
But they do it right, Okay, So let's get into
(12:19):
some history, and this one is kind of a mess.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I'm going to be straightforward, that's kind of a mess.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
But I think we've got it wrangled up where it's
it's going to be interesting. It's got quite a few
intersecting threads. So let's start with alpine mountaineering, which really
took off during the nineteenth century, and the first men
to complete these climbs capture the attention, awe and ire
of the publics of these alpine mountaineering.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Perhaps I don't need to say it, but you know,
climbing mountains in the Alps.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Women they also climbed these peaks, though unlesser numbers, but
with perhaps even more ire mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
So for a lot long time throughout history, mountaineering has
been traditionally and firmly in the domain of men. In fact,
af Mummery, a Victorian mountaineer, claimed that mountains have three phases.
They go through the inaccessible peak, the most difficult ascent
in the Alps, and a quote an easy day for
a lady, implying that once a woman climbs it, anybody
(13:20):
can do it in the mountain loses it's allure and
it's no longer worthwhile.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, yeah, but Mummery himself knew that women could climb,
He commented on Lily Bristow's eighteen ninety three climb of Grippon.
Lucy Walker climbed the matter Horn in eighteen seventy one,
only six years after a man made the first ascent.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Mummery talked about.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
That too, and his own wife, Mary was a skilled climber.
Together they climbed two felscruts during a thunderstorm and something
of a mountaining as I think I'd made that up,
but now we're saying it a mountaining legend. But in
his mind, her participation lessened that a comp and the
mountain itself. If a woman can do it, he thought,
(14:03):
can't anybody, so therefore useless and as we've discussed in
multiple episodes, including our look at Women in the Olympics,
Gym timidation and a History of Women Exercising, the early
twentieth century is when younger, middle class, typically white women
started playing certain sports, usually ones where it was believed
it was possible to remain lady like while playing them,
(14:25):
aka you won't sweat and you can wear like a skirt.
As this was happening, male explorers were going to Antarctica
and planning to summitt Everest. Women and young girls not
infrequently wrote to these explorers asking to join them on
their endeavors. Women in this realm were often well off
and or unmarried, and or ill that whole mountain air
(14:48):
saying like, go get some mountain air. They were often
in their thirties and forties when they got their start,
and many were husband and wife teams, but a lot
were sister teams or our friend. Women who did dare
to climb mountains with the men often caused somewhat of
an uproar. For instance, when Bristow shared a tent with
(15:08):
mail climbers, people who knew her raised their eyebrows. On
the other hand, when Gertrude Bell helped rescue some of
her fellow mail climbers, she was praised by the guide
and others in the group. Women's clothing was still policed.
Some women climbed in skirts, while others made news by
climbing in pants. Wearing a skirt to climb was pretty
(15:32):
much always unsafe, so like while trying to summit the
matter Horn with her father in eighteen sixty seven, Felicite
Carell's skirts kept catching dangerously in the wind until eventually
she could go no further. The matter horns coal Felicitae
is named for her. Many women would wear a dress
(15:52):
from the hotel and then take it off at the
bottom of the mountain to make climbing easier and safer,
or some variation of that, like maybe they would take
it off once they got started climbing.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
A climber named missus Audrey leblond or Lizzie leblond On's
had to return to a summit when on the descent
they realized she realized she'd left her skirt there, so
they'd go back up.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Oh man, those damn scarves, the chafing alone.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
On the sing alone. Yeah no, thank you.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So when the Alpine Club was founded in eighteen fifty seven,
they did not allow women as members.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Surprise.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
In response, women created the Ladies Alpine Club in nineteen
o seven. Leblon served as the first president. Congratulations and
some did view mountaineering as somewhat of a feminist thing,
which is interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Some viewed it as a feminist thing like women can
climb mountains too.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
But others viewed it as like, look at those men
climbing their mountains. Silly, it's interesting, So we did want
to talk about some famous women mountaineers and some famous
incidents involving women mountaineers. Again, this is really abbreviated and short,
so if you are interested, I'm like they are their
fellow interested mountaineering people out there, please let us know
(17:12):
and we can do a whole episode on it. And
we have mentioned some already, but we want to go
over a few more. One is Fanny Bullock Workman, who
was the first woman to ascend many peaks in the
Himalayas man or woman. In nineteen twelve. Bullock Workman was
photographed in the Himalayas holding a sign that read votes
for women, and she had a nemesis who I didn't include,
(17:33):
who is also feminist, but they were nemeses, so that's interesting.
Then there's Miriam O'Brien. After O'Brien was told she needed
a man to show her where some it was, she
was infuriated and wrote, the one who goes up first
on the rope has even more fun as he solves
the immediate problems of technique, tactics, and strategy as they occur.
I saw no reason why women ipso facto should be
(17:56):
incapable of leading a good climb. They had, as a
matter of fact, already done so on some few scattered occasions.
But why not make it a regular thing on the
usual climbs of the day. I decided to try some
climbs and not only guideless, but manless. By the nineteen twenties,
she followed up on this promise. She and other women
(18:16):
without the Eight of Men completed many summits and many
first She even had an essay published an edition of
National Geographic titled Manless Alpine Climbing, which is actually where
that quote is from myself.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
I need to do like a theatrical reading of this.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Oh you're speaking my language, Samantha.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I'm just saying manless alpine climbing should be a reading
for us like this.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
I say, that's a great user, so good, so good. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
So then there's also Alma Wagen Wagan Wagin. All right,
we're gonna say Wagan okay, And if someone knows they're
going to correct me, I know they will, and I
really want you to also. Fun fact, my great grandmother's
name was Alma anyway, so she often gets the credit
as the first woman mountain guide in North America, and
in nineteen twenty three, she said, quote, there were places
(19:08):
to climb, and I wanted to teach other women.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
The joy of climbing.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yes, And then we have Arlene bloom Bloom that the
first all women are sent on Annapurna. That was also
the first successful American attempt in nineteen seventy eight. Oh,
that's pretty recent. She was the first woman out of
the US to try her hand at climbing Mount Everest,
and she was a member of the first all women
team to summit the NULLI.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yes, and my mountaineering fact.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Annapurna, I believe has been an is still the most
dangerous mountain to summit.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
It has the highest death rate, so it's pretty easy. Yees.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, I'm speaking of This is kind of the darker part.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
We're going to talk about some death.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I did want to include it because I hadn't heard
about it, and that was sort of the point the
article I was reading was making, was like, this was
a huge tragedy, but because of a couple of political things,
but also because they were women, we don't hear about it.
The whole team was women, So just forewarning. In nineteen
seventy two, Elvira Chattevaya organized the first all women's climb
(20:17):
of a seven thousand meter peak, and this was not
by far her last time contributing to mountaineering history or
her first time so. In June nineteen seventy four, one
hundred and seventy climbers from several different countries came together
in a mountaineering camp in the Premier Mountains and the
USSR but is now the border of Tajikistan and Kurdistan.
A many with a goal of climbing the over seven
(20:39):
thousand meter peak Lenin. This was a part of a
USSR hosted international events, and many of the organizers were
unsure about including women, but felt like having zero women
wouldn't look good for them. It was meant to foster
a healthier relationship between the US and the USSR and
to promote mountaineering, especially to younger people. Most of the
(21:01):
climbers were going to ascend, or hoped to ascend, the
country's second highest peak when an.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Earthquake shruck shaken in more wayte than one. I did
not mean to make that fun.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
After the earthquake, American climber Mollie Higgins reported turning a
corner and seeing a Russian woman, Chadavea, bossing around four
Russian men. She turned to Higgins and said, I am
alviras Chadavea, I am master of sport.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
What are you?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And master of sport was a top credential in USSR
sport and rarely obtained by women at the time. Higgins
later said, I thought it was great. I didn't want
to be bossy like that, but here was a woman
who really was capable. I wanted to be like her.
That strong and that experienced, she was a heroine right there.
By many accounts, the women of this expedition generally stayed
(21:49):
on the Soviet side of the camp, helped each other out.
They practiced, they sang songs, they talked, they laughed, all
while taking what they were doing very very seriously. They
didn't really argue our fight with each other. Shadavea wrote,
you men have never dreamed of such openness. Another American
(22:10):
who we just mentioned, Arlene Blum, remembers being welcomed by
Shadava after some politics that had her feeling left out
of the American crew.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Basically, they were like, you're not experienced enough to be here.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
You go over there, and Shadavea informed Blum that the
mail climbers didn't believe a woman's team could ever summit
Pete Lenin, but that was Shadavea's goal. Her plan was
to take a team of eight women to traverse the peak,
the first to do so, no meta, the gender and BioVac,
which is basically extreme temporary camping on the top peak overnight.
(22:43):
But of course, the weather was out of their control.
The worst storm in a quarter decade rage, causing dangerous
avalanche conditions, many of which would go on to kill
several climbers. The day before the storm hit, organizers warned
that serious weather conditions were impending and they advised everyone
to descend. The group of Russian women led by Shadavaya
(23:03):
were witnessed around four hundred feet from the summit, about
one hundred and twenty two meters, and they sent a
message that they had in fact submitted, so they did
the thing. The following day, they radioed again and forming organizers,
one of whom was Shadabaya's husband, of the issues that
they were having winds of seventy to eighty miles per hour,
(23:24):
temperatures as low as negative forty degrees fahrenheit, and a
foot of snow made visibility virtually impossible. Chadava reported that
one of the women was sick and the other unwell.
She was advised to descend and if necessary, leave the
sick women behind. As they started to descend, one of
the women would tragically die, allegedly freezing to death as
(23:45):
she held the rope for others to climb down. The
survivors made it a few hundred feet before setting up tents.
That night, or perhaps the next, the two sick women died.
The winds blew away much of their equipment, and the
five surviving women to shelter in a tent without poles
and only three sleeping bags. The next morning, some climbers
(24:06):
who overheard the trouble the Russians were in tried to help,
but weren't able to get far because of the weather.
Hadavea informed organizers that three more of the women were
sick and they could not leave them after everything they'd
been through together and what they've done for each other.
A few hours later, she messaged, it is very sad
here where it was once so beautiful, And within a
(24:27):
few more hours some of the women had died, and
Shadavea radioed they are all gone.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Now.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
That last asked when will we see the flowers again?
Two others earlier asked about their children. Now it is
no use. A few hours later, we are sorry, we
have failed you. We tried so hard. Now we are
so cold. And a few hours later another of the
women had died, and then another, Shadaveya, told organizers she
(24:53):
was too weak to hold down the transmit button anymore.
And the final message came later from the remaining climber,
Galina Parahojuk. Now we are two and now we will
all die. We are very sorry, we tried but we
could not. Please forgive us. We love you, goodbye. When
the weather cleared, the American team started to ascend towards
(25:16):
the peak. None the wiser, Higgins, successfully summited, as did
another American woman, the respected mountaineer Marty Hoey, who would
later die on Everest in an attempt to become the
first woman to summit in nineteen eighty two. They, among
other climbers that summited, found the bodies of the Russian women.
In total, thirteen died, including the eight women on that team.
(25:38):
There were many reasons for this tragedy. One Higgins has
suggested is they were the test group. They felt they
needed to do it to uphold the standard of the
women's team, and Plum said the women were so very
loyal to each other they stayed together until the end.
So again the article was making the point like this
is a pretty serious tragedy and mountaineering history, and a
(26:01):
lot of the tragedies that people can name and in
successes people can name are about men, and this one
has sort of been buried and people don't know about it.
It was an all women's team and they were the
first to summit, but they didn't didn't survive it.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Oh goodness. M Blum didn't go with them then.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
No, she was on Yeah, this was an all Russian team.
Blum was on the American. She wanted to go with them,
but because of the like politics of it, they wanted
it to be an all ussr team.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yeah, that's really tragic. I feel like though, there's definitely.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Been movies on all male teams or at least most
of the male teams who have died, and you are horror.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Stories and then they are kind of elevated to like
hero status sometimes.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, typically.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Watched them, so like at this point, you know this
is really sad they didn't make it, and then the
loyalty they had to each other.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
It could have been a movie. I feel like this
has been a nineties movie.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I feel I mean, maybe it exists, listeners, maybe let
us know. I don't, right, because the whole point of
the article was like, how the hell we don't talk
about this?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Right?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Of course it has a lot to do with like
at that point the USSR being kind of the enemy
of the state. I mean today we're not standing with Russia,
so it's kind of that level, I'm sure, which we
don't know how much politics plays into it, and I
wonder how much. Yeah, the USSR history sticks with the
within Russia, like the former Soviet all of that area.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
How much did they know Do they actually know a
lot of it?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And we just we don't know a lot of it,
which happens a lot when it comes to international stuff. Yeah,
but moving on to the less sad, less sad historical context,
we have a Junko Tabe who became the first member
to Summit Everest in nineteen seventy five as part of
an all women team, which is awesome. And we have
(28:00):
Alison Hargreaves who was recognized as the first person to
solo climb all six of the Great and Northern faces
of the Alps, and is credited with climbing ever its
solo without oxygen or the support of a sherpa. I
feel like without the oxygen thing.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
That's a huge space.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
It should happen.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I have like I could go.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
If this is a different podcast, I'd be talking about that,
I'd be talking about the dangers you're descending.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I'd be talking about ice glaciers. Like I'm terri you.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I just I feel like I get I get the
like notoriety to it, but I'm like, is it necessary?
Is it?
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (28:38):
All right, all right, all right, I don't I'm not
a mountaineer. There's a whole lot of things I don't know.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Obviously.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I am a mere amateur hiker at best, probably just
a walker.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
So she died on K two, one of the most
dangerous summers in the world, in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
K two and Anna Perna are the two that are
like tied for the most team I think, or they
go back and forth.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
This is the actual better news. Okay, this one's actually better.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
In two thousand and six, Sophia Danenberg became the first
black woman to summit Everest. She said that at the
time of her climb quote, when I was at base camp,
if there were twenty female climbers, there must have been
two thousand men. And mountaineering generally there aren't many women.
But there are so few women on Everest. And it's
not just the climbers. Almost all the sherpas, guides, cooks,
(29:40):
and staff are men. It's like being in a small
town with almost no women, and if you're climbing, you're
there for months. This macho climbing culture can be intimidating
for women. Young women, including women of color, are bringing
their values into climbing and demanding that things are different.
It grows exponentially once it started. Mountaineering is kind of
lagging behind, but the industry is to respond. She's also
(30:02):
been very outspoken about her experience climbing as a black woman. Quote,
there are a lack of role models for people of
color in the climbing community. I also think that climbing
is an indicator of lagging social economic issues in her country.
People who climb big mountains are all the same, well educated,
work at an engineering company, from upper middle class families.
Climbing is time consuming and costly. No matter what anyone
(30:24):
says about the metaphysical part of climbing, it's a selfish,
non productive activity. It's a hobby that takes up a
lot of time. It's a selfish hobby. It's a hobby
that I love. Some people don't have the privilege of
not being productive. And then further, I've noticed that when
I've met people on my expeditions, they treat me with
a level of respect because I treat them with respect.
People in countries in South America, Africa and Asia are
(30:46):
so happy to see another brown person checking and climbing.
They don't make the normal assumptions of being a rich
white man. People have offered me additional information and have
showed me immense hospitality. And we're going to be talking
about her a bit more in a second. But she's
got a lot of great quotes and still got a
lot of greatquotes about always being questioned as being an expert,
Like they're always like, oh, it can't be you, but.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
You don't look like a climber. Excuse me, what does
that look like?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
And I've been following again with the social media is
but a lot of hikers who have been doing special episodes,
I guess, or doing specific things to show showcase whether
or not an area is safe for people of color,
specifically black people. And I think that's a sad and
necessary both of those things. And we've talked about that
(31:34):
and travel wise, but specifically for climbing and for hiking
and climbing in wilderness a type of things talking about
whether or not you are safe because we are more isolated.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
We've talked about that as an issue.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
For women in general and for non binary people, but
for you know, black the black community, it's a whole
different conversation once again, whether it's welcoming in general. And
I find that interesting because this is that conversation of like, yeah,
it's kind of for me as a person of color
when I see all white people. Don't get me wrong,
(32:07):
I still have the privilege of not of being considered
the model minority. Do I get some looks, sure, but
I don't get as much discrimination as a black person would.
I absolutely believe that, and I've seen it, but it's
still like the relief to see another person of color.
We're kind of like, Hi, oh you made it so
(32:27):
maybe this is a little you know, like trying to
give us each other heads up. And it's definitely that
conversation of who is welcome and who was seen as
an expert because well, you don't look like ABC and D.
So it's very interesting. I'm glad to hear they're making
changes and bringing some good, good noted difference in intersectional perspective.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Oh yeah, absolutely great quotes.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
She's also been very outspoken of, like we're gonna again,
We're going to get to this more in a second.
But like when she did this, it was pretty historic
and really didn't make news and it should have, right,
so of course.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
And then we have named Doma Sharpa, who at the
age of seventeen, became the youngest woman to summit Mount
Everest in two thousand and eight. She grew up in
a remote mountain village and Nepal, dreaming of climbing herself.
And she said, quote, the Sharpa are known as mountain heroes,
and I always wanted to live up to my name.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
And apparently she did good job. My god, what was
I doing sitting on don't.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Want to think about.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Then we have Sarah Kumalo.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Kumala became the first Black African woman to summit Everest
in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Also a lot of great quotes, and then we did
want to wrap up with some more modern news. In
recent years, organizations run by women have come together to
lead all women summits of Everest. One such group operates
with a local Nepalese organization launched by Nepali entrepreneur Indira Bata.
It employs all Napali women as guides and provides funding
(33:58):
for other local women to train guides. And this is
a pretty big deal because over of the over twenty
two thousand guides in the country, less than nine hundred
are women. It's pretty it's a good earning. This is
not a strict endorsement of this company or again of
climbing efforts, because I know that and itself is controversial,
but just want to right mention it right again.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
We always want to think about the environmental impact, so
that's all we're talking about. But if you're something that
intrigues you make.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Sure you get your research.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yes on again, if you're thinking this has been a
lot of white folks, you are correct, though we don't
want to erase what women of color have done. Still
of the about four thousand people who have some of
the Everest, only eight of them have been black. Again,
there are some efforts to change that, and yeah, there
are already people.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Doing amazing things.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Of course, just a reminder, so many conversations about this,
but the opportunity, the affordability, accessibility, and probably just the
overall racism can be factors.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
Or why this is.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
And then one of these efforts, by the way, is
a group of black climbers and mountaineers called a Full Circle.
In the words of a member, Rosemary Saul, it is
an expedition that is certainly about climbing, it is about
spending time in the mountains, but it's also about building community,
global community, and it's about changing the narrative of the
black community, particularly in the United States, and how we
(35:22):
interact with outdoor spaces. Yeah, and in twenty twenty two
they became the first all black team to summit Everest.
There's also Brown Girls Climbing, which is a US organization
dedicated to introducing climbings to girls of color.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
And you know, we've talked about the hiking.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Experience, wilderness experience with other organizations and why this is
important that they are able to build that community.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
It's beautiful to see.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yes, and a good source to check out complete with
people to follow on social media is melaninbasecamp dot com.
And then in twenty twenty one, Soriah Sarhati Nelson, who
is working on a book about women African climbers, reported
on an Afghan mountaineering women's team stranded in Afghanistan after
the US left. When the Taliban was in charge. Previously,
(36:08):
women and girls were not allowed to participate in sports,
but in the post Taliban era they have fought to
compete and they have had successes. When the Taliban regained control,
some started banning women from participating once again, and this
team's trapped.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
It was an.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Upsetting and very informative article, but it was kind of
using this team to look at what's going on in
Afghanistan at large for women.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Right. Yeah, obviously, again, this is one of the big
conversations of who has accessibility to doing these things and
why the numbers for those marginalized people are so low,
and how it's not their fault.
Speaker 4 (36:49):
Is literally society's fault.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yes, yes, and definitely like.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Not to harp on this point, but harp on this point,
like As the climbing of mountains has become more commercialized,
more and more people are doing it, and I'm happy
to see like it's becoming more diversified. But as we've
said throughout, do your research, because we've all, I think
a lot of us have seen the pictures now of
like the line to suit Everest and the trash that's everywhere. Like, right,
(37:20):
if you're going to do it, you have to be respectful,
take care of the environment, think about what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Yeah, right, and also yeah, all that to understand that
if native people of that land are asking you something,
not even asking you, but pleading with you, yes, to
not do something, Let's listen.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
Let's listen.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yes, yes, yes, I mean there's so many there's so
much we could talk about with this, but we're we've
got to stay our feminist. It's hard because I want
to talk about it, but those podcasts do exist, and
there is so much information out there about this, and
I am glad that I got to to share some mountaineers.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Except for the tragic but you know, yes, it happens.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
It does.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
That's what the whole thing got started because I was
just curious.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
I'm just curious. Well, if we have anybody in our.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Audience who's a mountaineer who has climbed some mountains, we
would love to hear from you. Pictures too, Yes, oh
my gosh, yes, send us pictures. You can email us
at Steffidia mom Stuff at iheartmeia dot com. You can
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on
Instagram at stuff I Never Told You Things is always
to our super producer Christina.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
Thank you Christina, and thank see you for listening.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Stuff on Ever Told Your Prediction?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
By Heart Radio For more podcast from my heart Radio,
is it the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or
regular listen to your favorite shows
Hey, this is Annie and Smantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Stuff I Never told you Production by
Heart Radio, and today we are bringing back an episode
that was near and dear to me women climbing mountains
because I went down a wild rabbit hole during the
(00:31):
pandemic and I actually got sucked back into it again
like a year later.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Did our recent famous around the world kind of bring
you in a little bit because we talked about our
recent glaciologist who was mountain climbing for her studies.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yes, it was part of it.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I mean that actually came later than the second rabbit hole,
but it's like it's always there.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Waiting to pull me back, because yes, it's just so fascinating.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I don't know quite why, but I love it. Adventures
adventures maybe yeah, the danger it's dangerous. Well, please enjoy
this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and
(01:24):
aw coome to stuff I Never told you Protection of iHeartRadio,
and today we're taking a bit of a break. It
wasn't intentional from the dark news of day to talk
about mountaineering and not to say that we aren't going
(01:48):
to talk about some dark things.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So I guess this is your content warning.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I think it's nothing major, but we are going to
be talking about death in mountaineering.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
And so this kind of came about because I recently.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Went down a mountaineering rabbit hole because of a free
Paramount Plus trial. I could go into the details, I won't,
but basically I ended up watching a lot of documentaries
about mountaineering.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I have so many mountaineering facts.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'm very surprised I did not bombard you with them
the last time we hung out, because I've the last
few times i've been out with people and I've had
a couple of.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Drinks, I'm like, do you know about the des zone.
It's it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Bt Doves. Paramount Plus is not a sponsor for me.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
They are not a not currently, not currently, but hey.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
I need a subscription, so if you want to.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Well that's the thing, I'm such a cheapskate. When I
get the free trial, I watch things I would never
watch otherwise. And this is how this happened. I wouldn't
have watched these documentaries otherwise. I did enjoy them, clearly.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
I mean, yeah, you're like, guess what we're gonna do
an episode of Mountain And I was like, oh, okay,
here we go. I was like, have you heard about
the desta You're like what you did not ask me that?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yes, but you were surprised when I told you that
I've been on this mountaineering rabbit.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Not as surprised because your mind is unique and like
to go down mountains.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I'm sure likes to go down mountains. My mind is unique,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And I actually have been mountaineering, Okay, not in anything
like this that we're specifically going to.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Talk about, but I have climbed.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Uh. I have had to deal with a climatization and
altitude poisoning.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Actually, oh wow, of course, Oh it's horrible. Don't recommend it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
But I watched these documentaries and I couldn't stop thinking
about the mindset of climbing a mountain. When the death
rate is one four, which is what it is for
K two, I think, oh, look.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
My mountaineering facts. They're coming to us. Here we go.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
However, I do want to point out because a lot
of mountaineers, I really don't want to do you in
justice if you're listening, say that like statistics numbers wise,
and we can argue about like the mindset specifically, but
you're actually more likely to die in.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
A cra accident.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
But anyway, I think that's more of a numbers game
than and anyway I'm getting I'm already going off trail.
But when asked about like why would you climb Mount Everest,
famous British britishman George Lee Mallory, who is one of
the first to summit, if not the first to summit
Mount Everest, said because it's there and so here we are,
(04:31):
here we are.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I feel like that's a lot of people like really
have this level of seeing it and like, yes, I
want because it's not it's dangerous, and it's it's so
like incredibly hard to train. People don't understand all of that,
and it seems doable. So that's I'm going to climb
my Mount Everest, or I'm going to climb Machu Pichu,
(04:52):
like all of these amazing destinations without understanding the true
like behind the scenes of it. Just doing the at
twelve the Appalachi is pretty difficult, but it's not the
level as you know again Mount Everest, Mancha Picci like that,
there's a whole different level mindset, but it seems attainable
because if you can walk for those who are able
body enough to walk or even access a trail.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Yeah, it seems like this could be something.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Yeah, have you ever thought about it?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
I think I had actually said I was going to
climb something. I forgot which one it is. I'm pret
sure it wasn't Mount Everest, because I was like, I
know better than that, but because I also love hiking
and a long going hot I like, again, this is
one of the things, like I can walk, sure, so.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Let me try to do this.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I love hiking, I love seeing great views, and I
don't mind backpacking, so let's try this. Because I definitely
can't rock climb. You know, I'm like, well, I thought
about skydiving, but that seems a little even more perilous
in my head, like all of that. So I'm sure
I have and you know, it's kind of that old
like mid life crisis.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
I'm going to climb on top of the mountain.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think I've thought about it, but never seriously,
or at least Everest, because I did do whatever. I
can't even remember the mountains name, but I have pictures
and it looks great. But I don't think I ever
seriously considered it, and that surprises a lot of people,
(06:18):
and I tell them because I guess I'm kind of
like I'm making like a finger gun motion.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Oh no, no, no, no, it's finger guns. Excuse you, no, geez,
so important.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And we're going to talk about We're going to talk
about a lot of accessibility issues, and of course we're
gonna keep this intersectional as we want to do. Uh
And because of that, like I know, people get really
riled up about this.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So I'm going to start with a lot of disclaimers.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Okay, so we are not going to really touch on
the environmental impacts and a harm that the commercialization of
mountaineering has done, but we do want to acknowledge that
is a.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Big part of the conversation and it should be.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And also never ever ever want to undervalue the work
of the surpas and high altitude porters who honestly make
it possible for most folks in this commercialization space and
have risk serialized and sometimes died, especially when it comes
to yes, this capitalizing climbing of mountains and government policies
(07:23):
that place profits over safety, but also the systems of
poverty that might make that an option considered in the
first place. This is not that podcast that does exist,
because I have listened to it, I have watched it,
and I think that.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Is an incredibly important part of all this, and that's.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Why we had to mention it at the top, even
though that's not really what we're talking about today. Also
want to mention plenty of indigenous peoples and regions with
these mountains regularly transverse high altitudes. Maybe not summiting, but
worth mentioning, because a lot of the people we're talking
about are kind of like getting to the top, taking
the picture going down when.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Other people might be doing it all the time, or
like something close.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
I mean, one of the things that I've been seeing
on social media slash techtok is definitely a lot of
Native Haaians being like, please stop doing this. You don't
know what you're doing, and you're causing dangers and then
becoming a whole risk and then having our people look
like the enemies for telling you not to do this,
and then also the enemies when we're like, we're not
going to risk our lives because you did something that
(08:24):
we told you not to do.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yes, yes, I mean, with everything we talk about, I
would just encourage everyone to do your research and to
be respectful and yeah, there's a safety question in this,
and you should take that very seriously because other people's
lives and well beings are on the line other than yours.
(08:48):
Another thing worth mentioning mountaineering is oftentimes, but not always,
extremely inaccessible in terms of price of equipment and of travel,
So that's something of So a lot of the stories
about mountaineering, and especially around tragedy in these situations are
a bit muddled for a number of reasons, and we
are going to talk about one specific case, but so
(09:10):
just keep that in mind and final disclaimer, we are
not experts, and please do not yell at us. I
know commercial climbing really gets people angry, and I get it.
We're doing more of a history of women who have
climbed mountains and also occurrent I'll look at what's going
on right now. And also we are sticking to basic
mountaineering facts when it comes to the women we're talking about,
(09:32):
So it could be they have something less than savory
in their past.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
It could be that they're worth talking about more.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
And if you know more about that, please let us know,
because clearly I'm eager.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
For mountaineering facts. I'm like just ready to receive them.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
He's ready for trivia.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I am, I am imm all right, So let's start
with the definition. What is mountaineering exactly? Well, actually, huh.
(10:08):
It is not as simple as you think and is
up for debate. Most seem to agree that it typically
involves traversing snow and possibly ice and glaciers to reach
a summit, which is called summitting. Others define it as
scaling a mountain. Sometimes rock climbing does get roped into it.
I think we're more specifically talking about summitting, ice, snow,
(10:29):
glaciers involved, though, So.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Would Tom Cruise be a mountaineer.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
The question of the podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
I would love if I became like you know how
on trivia teams you have like your sports person, you're
like music person.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I would love if I was a mountain I bet
he is, Yes, I bet he.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Well, I just wondered because I just remember that picture
of him like hanging from the edge, and I know
that that's free climbing essentially, but I'm guessing it's probably
roped up into this. Again, people need to be trained.
I cannot emphasize this enough. People really do things on
a silly idea and not researching it heavily.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Please don't do this.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
So, of course, numbers are sort of hard to track,
but according to some data from the Outdoor Industry Association,
there are about two million climbers in the US, and
as far as women, we couldn't find a general number,
but data from specific mountains in the case, it ranges
from ten to twenty percent, but has been on the rise.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yes, and since the first known summit of Everest in
nineteen fifty three, only about eight percent of those who
have summited Everest have been women. Many women have reported
misogyny and getting questioned at every turn. And I will
say researching this, I found a lot of troubling. I
have an anxiety around articles that go to a strictly
(11:52):
biological sense.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Oh right, why things are the way they are?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
That makes me really yeah, that makes me really nervous.
There are a lot about this. A lot of them
say women and men evolved equally to be able to
summit mountains, and there were scientific articles about that, but
I just felt really uncomfortable talking about it, to be honest.
But they do it right, Okay, So let's get into
(12:19):
some history, and this one is kind of a mess.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I'm going to be straightforward, that's kind of a mess.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
But I think we've got it wrangled up where it's
it's going to be interesting. It's got quite a few
intersecting threads. So let's start with alpine mountaineering, which really
took off during the nineteenth century, and the first men
to complete these climbs capture the attention, awe and ire
of the publics of these alpine mountaineering.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Perhaps I don't need to say it, but you know,
climbing mountains in the Alps.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Women they also climbed these peaks, though unlesser numbers, but
with perhaps even more ire mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
So for a lot long time throughout history, mountaineering has
been traditionally and firmly in the domain of men. In fact,
af Mummery, a Victorian mountaineer, claimed that mountains have three phases.
They go through the inaccessible peak, the most difficult ascent
in the Alps, and a quote an easy day for
a lady, implying that once a woman climbs it, anybody
(13:20):
can do it in the mountain loses it's allure and
it's no longer worthwhile.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, yeah, but Mummery himself knew that women could climb,
He commented on Lily Bristow's eighteen ninety three climb of Grippon.
Lucy Walker climbed the matter Horn in eighteen seventy one,
only six years after a man made the first ascent.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Mummery talked about.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
That too, and his own wife, Mary was a skilled climber.
Together they climbed two felscruts during a thunderstorm and something
of a mountaining as I think I'd made that up,
but now we're saying it a mountaining legend. But in
his mind, her participation lessened that a comp and the
mountain itself. If a woman can do it, he thought,
(14:03):
can't anybody, so therefore useless and as we've discussed in
multiple episodes, including our look at Women in the Olympics,
Gym timidation and a History of Women Exercising, the early
twentieth century is when younger, middle class, typically white women
started playing certain sports, usually ones where it was believed
it was possible to remain lady like while playing them,
(14:25):
aka you won't sweat and you can wear like a skirt.
As this was happening, male explorers were going to Antarctica
and planning to summitt Everest. Women and young girls not
infrequently wrote to these explorers asking to join them on
their endeavors. Women in this realm were often well off
and or unmarried, and or ill that whole mountain air
(14:48):
saying like, go get some mountain air. They were often
in their thirties and forties when they got their start,
and many were husband and wife teams, but a lot
were sister teams or our friend. Women who did dare
to climb mountains with the men often caused somewhat of
an uproar. For instance, when Bristow shared a tent with
(15:08):
mail climbers, people who knew her raised their eyebrows. On
the other hand, when Gertrude Bell helped rescue some of
her fellow mail climbers, she was praised by the guide
and others in the group. Women's clothing was still policed.
Some women climbed in skirts, while others made news by
climbing in pants. Wearing a skirt to climb was pretty
(15:32):
much always unsafe, so like while trying to summit the
matter Horn with her father in eighteen sixty seven, Felicite
Carell's skirts kept catching dangerously in the wind until eventually
she could go no further. The matter horns coal Felicitae
is named for her. Many women would wear a dress
(15:52):
from the hotel and then take it off at the
bottom of the mountain to make climbing easier and safer,
or some variation of that, like maybe they would take
it off once they got started climbing.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
A climber named missus Audrey leblond or Lizzie leblond On's
had to return to a summit when on the descent
they realized she realized she'd left her skirt there, so
they'd go back up.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Oh man, those damn scarves, the chafing alone.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
On the sing alone. Yeah no, thank you.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So when the Alpine Club was founded in eighteen fifty seven,
they did not allow women as members.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Surprise.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
In response, women created the Ladies Alpine Club in nineteen
o seven. Leblon served as the first president. Congratulations and
some did view mountaineering as somewhat of a feminist thing,
which is interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Some viewed it as a feminist thing like women can
climb mountains too.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
But others viewed it as like, look at those men
climbing their mountains. Silly, it's interesting, So we did want
to talk about some famous women mountaineers and some famous
incidents involving women mountaineers. Again, this is really abbreviated and short,
so if you are interested, I'm like they are their
fellow interested mountaineering people out there, please let us know
(17:12):
and we can do a whole episode on it. And
we have mentioned some already, but we want to go
over a few more. One is Fanny Bullock Workman, who
was the first woman to ascend many peaks in the
Himalayas man or woman. In nineteen twelve. Bullock Workman was
photographed in the Himalayas holding a sign that read votes
for women, and she had a nemesis who I didn't include,
(17:33):
who is also feminist, but they were nemeses, so that's interesting.
Then there's Miriam O'Brien. After O'Brien was told she needed
a man to show her where some it was, she
was infuriated and wrote, the one who goes up first
on the rope has even more fun as he solves
the immediate problems of technique, tactics, and strategy as they occur.
I saw no reason why women ipso facto should be
(17:56):
incapable of leading a good climb. They had, as a
matter of fact, already done so on some few scattered occasions.
But why not make it a regular thing on the
usual climbs of the day. I decided to try some
climbs and not only guideless, but manless. By the nineteen twenties,
she followed up on this promise. She and other women
(18:16):
without the Eight of Men completed many summits and many
first She even had an essay published an edition of
National Geographic titled Manless Alpine Climbing, which is actually where
that quote is from myself.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
I need to do like a theatrical reading of this.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Oh you're speaking my language, Samantha.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I'm just saying manless alpine climbing should be a reading
for us like this.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
I say, that's a great user, so good, so good. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
So then there's also Alma Wagen Wagan Wagin. All right,
we're gonna say Wagan okay, And if someone knows they're
going to correct me, I know they will, and I
really want you to also. Fun fact, my great grandmother's
name was Alma anyway, so she often gets the credit
as the first woman mountain guide in North America, and
in nineteen twenty three, she said, quote, there were places
(19:08):
to climb, and I wanted to teach other women.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
The joy of climbing.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yes, And then we have Arlene bloom Bloom that the
first all women are sent on Annapurna. That was also
the first successful American attempt in nineteen seventy eight. Oh,
that's pretty recent. She was the first woman out of
the US to try her hand at climbing Mount Everest,
and she was a member of the first all women
team to summit the NULLI.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yes, and my mountaineering fact.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Annapurna, I believe has been an is still the most
dangerous mountain to summit.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
It has the highest death rate, so it's pretty easy. Yees.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, I'm speaking of This is kind of the darker part.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
We're going to talk about some death.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I did want to include it because I hadn't heard
about it, and that was sort of the point the
article I was reading was making, was like, this was
a huge tragedy, but because of a couple of political things,
but also because they were women, we don't hear about it.
The whole team was women, So just forewarning. In nineteen
seventy two, Elvira Chattevaya organized the first all women's climb
(20:17):
of a seven thousand meter peak, and this was not
by far her last time contributing to mountaineering history or
her first time so. In June nineteen seventy four, one
hundred and seventy climbers from several different countries came together
in a mountaineering camp in the Premier Mountains and the
USSR but is now the border of Tajikistan and Kurdistan.
A many with a goal of climbing the over seven
(20:39):
thousand meter peak Lenin. This was a part of a
USSR hosted international events, and many of the organizers were
unsure about including women, but felt like having zero women
wouldn't look good for them. It was meant to foster
a healthier relationship between the US and the USSR and
to promote mountaineering, especially to younger people. Most of the
(21:01):
climbers were going to ascend, or hoped to ascend, the
country's second highest peak when an.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Earthquake shruck shaken in more wayte than one. I did
not mean to make that fun.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
After the earthquake, American climber Mollie Higgins reported turning a
corner and seeing a Russian woman, Chadavea, bossing around four
Russian men. She turned to Higgins and said, I am
alviras Chadavea, I am master of sport.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
What are you?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And master of sport was a top credential in USSR
sport and rarely obtained by women at the time. Higgins
later said, I thought it was great. I didn't want
to be bossy like that, but here was a woman
who really was capable. I wanted to be like her.
That strong and that experienced, she was a heroine right there.
By many accounts, the women of this expedition generally stayed
(21:49):
on the Soviet side of the camp, helped each other out.
They practiced, they sang songs, they talked, they laughed, all
while taking what they were doing very very seriously. They
didn't really argue our fight with each other. Shadavea wrote,
you men have never dreamed of such openness. Another American
(22:10):
who we just mentioned, Arlene Blum, remembers being welcomed by
Shadava after some politics that had her feeling left out
of the American crew.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Basically, they were like, you're not experienced enough to be here.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
You go over there, and Shadavea informed Blum that the
mail climbers didn't believe a woman's team could ever summit
Pete Lenin, but that was Shadavea's goal. Her plan was
to take a team of eight women to traverse the peak,
the first to do so, no meta, the gender and BioVac,
which is basically extreme temporary camping on the top peak overnight.
(22:43):
But of course, the weather was out of their control.
The worst storm in a quarter decade rage, causing dangerous
avalanche conditions, many of which would go on to kill
several climbers. The day before the storm hit, organizers warned
that serious weather conditions were impending and they advised everyone
to descend. The group of Russian women led by Shadavaya
(23:03):
were witnessed around four hundred feet from the summit, about
one hundred and twenty two meters, and they sent a
message that they had in fact submitted, so they did
the thing. The following day, they radioed again and forming organizers,
one of whom was Shadabaya's husband, of the issues that
they were having winds of seventy to eighty miles per hour,
(23:24):
temperatures as low as negative forty degrees fahrenheit, and a
foot of snow made visibility virtually impossible. Chadava reported that
one of the women was sick and the other unwell.
She was advised to descend and if necessary, leave the
sick women behind. As they started to descend, one of
the women would tragically die, allegedly freezing to death as
(23:45):
she held the rope for others to climb down. The
survivors made it a few hundred feet before setting up tents.
That night, or perhaps the next, the two sick women died.
The winds blew away much of their equipment, and the
five surviving women to shelter in a tent without poles
and only three sleeping bags. The next morning, some climbers
(24:06):
who overheard the trouble the Russians were in tried to help,
but weren't able to get far because of the weather.
Hadavea informed organizers that three more of the women were
sick and they could not leave them after everything they'd
been through together and what they've done for each other.
A few hours later, she messaged, it is very sad
here where it was once so beautiful, And within a
(24:27):
few more hours some of the women had died, and
Shadavea radioed they are all gone.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Now.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
That last asked when will we see the flowers again?
Two others earlier asked about their children. Now it is
no use. A few hours later, we are sorry, we
have failed you. We tried so hard. Now we are
so cold. And a few hours later another of the
women had died, and then another, Shadaveya, told organizers she
(24:53):
was too weak to hold down the transmit button anymore.
And the final message came later from the remaining climber,
Galina Parahojuk. Now we are two and now we will
all die. We are very sorry, we tried but we
could not. Please forgive us. We love you, goodbye. When
the weather cleared, the American team started to ascend towards
(25:16):
the peak. None the wiser, Higgins, successfully summited, as did
another American woman, the respected mountaineer Marty Hoey, who would
later die on Everest in an attempt to become the
first woman to summit in nineteen eighty two. They, among
other climbers that summited, found the bodies of the Russian women.
In total, thirteen died, including the eight women on that team.
(25:38):
There were many reasons for this tragedy. One Higgins has
suggested is they were the test group. They felt they
needed to do it to uphold the standard of the
women's team, and Plum said the women were so very
loyal to each other they stayed together until the end.
So again the article was making the point like this
is a pretty serious tragedy and mountaineering history, and a
(26:01):
lot of the tragedies that people can name and in
successes people can name are about men, and this one
has sort of been buried and people don't know about it.
It was an all women's team and they were the
first to summit, but they didn't didn't survive it.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
Oh goodness. M Blum didn't go with them then.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
No, she was on Yeah, this was an all Russian team.
Blum was on the American. She wanted to go with them,
but because of the like politics of it, they wanted
it to be an all ussr team.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yeah, that's really tragic. I feel like though, there's definitely.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Been movies on all male teams or at least most
of the male teams who have died, and you are horror.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Stories and then they are kind of elevated to like
hero status sometimes.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, typically.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Watched them, so like at this point, you know this
is really sad they didn't make it, and then the
loyalty they had to each other.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
It could have been a movie. I feel like this
has been a nineties movie.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I feel I mean, maybe it exists, listeners, maybe let
us know. I don't, right, because the whole point of
the article was like, how the hell we don't talk
about this?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Right?
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Of course it has a lot to do with like
at that point the USSR being kind of the enemy
of the state. I mean today we're not standing with Russia,
so it's kind of that level, I'm sure, which we
don't know how much politics plays into it, and I
wonder how much. Yeah, the USSR history sticks with the
within Russia, like the former Soviet all of that area.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
How much did they know Do they actually know a
lot of it?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And we just we don't know a lot of it,
which happens a lot when it comes to international stuff. Yeah,
but moving on to the less sad, less sad historical context,
we have a Junko Tabe who became the first member
to Summit Everest in nineteen seventy five as part of
an all women team, which is awesome. And we have
(28:00):
Alison Hargreaves who was recognized as the first person to
solo climb all six of the Great and Northern faces
of the Alps, and is credited with climbing ever its
solo without oxygen or the support of a sherpa. I
feel like without the oxygen thing.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
That's a huge space.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
It should happen.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I have like I could go.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
If this is a different podcast, I'd be talking about that,
I'd be talking about the dangers you're descending.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I'd be talking about ice glaciers. Like I'm terri you.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I just I feel like I get I get the
like notoriety to it, but I'm like, is it necessary?
Is it?
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (28:38):
All right, all right, all right, I don't I'm not
a mountaineer. There's a whole lot of things I don't know.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Obviously.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I am a mere amateur hiker at best, probably just
a walker.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
So she died on K two, one of the most
dangerous summers in the world, in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
K two and Anna Perna are the two that are
like tied for the most team I think, or they
go back and forth.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
This is the actual better news. Okay, this one's actually better.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
In two thousand and six, Sophia Danenberg became the first
black woman to summit Everest. She said that at the
time of her climb quote, when I was at base camp,
if there were twenty female climbers, there must have been
two thousand men. And mountaineering generally there aren't many women.
But there are so few women on Everest. And it's
not just the climbers. Almost all the sherpas, guides, cooks,
(29:40):
and staff are men. It's like being in a small
town with almost no women, and if you're climbing, you're
there for months. This macho climbing culture can be intimidating
for women. Young women, including women of color, are bringing
their values into climbing and demanding that things are different.
It grows exponentially once it started. Mountaineering is kind of
lagging behind, but the industry is to respond. She's also
(30:02):
been very outspoken about her experience climbing as a black woman. Quote,
there are a lack of role models for people of
color in the climbing community. I also think that climbing
is an indicator of lagging social economic issues in her country.
People who climb big mountains are all the same, well educated,
work at an engineering company, from upper middle class families.
Climbing is time consuming and costly. No matter what anyone
(30:24):
says about the metaphysical part of climbing, it's a selfish,
non productive activity. It's a hobby that takes up a
lot of time. It's a selfish hobby. It's a hobby
that I love. Some people don't have the privilege of
not being productive. And then further, I've noticed that when
I've met people on my expeditions, they treat me with
a level of respect because I treat them with respect.
People in countries in South America, Africa and Asia are
(30:46):
so happy to see another brown person checking and climbing.
They don't make the normal assumptions of being a rich
white man. People have offered me additional information and have
showed me immense hospitality. And we're going to be talking
about her a bit more in a second. But she's
got a lot of great quotes and still got a
lot of greatquotes about always being questioned as being an expert,
Like they're always like, oh, it can't be you, but.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
You don't look like a climber. Excuse me, what does
that look like?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
And I've been following again with the social media is
but a lot of hikers who have been doing special episodes,
I guess, or doing specific things to show showcase whether
or not an area is safe for people of color,
specifically black people. And I think that's a sad and
necessary both of those things. And we've talked about that
(31:34):
and travel wise, but specifically for climbing and for hiking
and climbing in wilderness a type of things talking about
whether or not you are safe because we are more isolated.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
We've talked about that as an issue.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
For women in general and for non binary people, but
for you know, black the black community, it's a whole
different conversation once again, whether it's welcoming in general. And
I find that interesting because this is that conversation of like, yeah,
it's kind of for me as a person of color
when I see all white people. Don't get me wrong,
(32:07):
I still have the privilege of not of being considered
the model minority. Do I get some looks, sure, but
I don't get as much discrimination as a black person would.
I absolutely believe that, and I've seen it, but it's
still like the relief to see another person of color.
We're kind of like, Hi, oh you made it so
(32:27):
maybe this is a little you know, like trying to
give us each other heads up. And it's definitely that
conversation of who is welcome and who was seen as
an expert because well, you don't look like ABC and D.
So it's very interesting. I'm glad to hear they're making
changes and bringing some good, good noted difference in intersectional perspective.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Oh yeah, absolutely great quotes.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
She's also been very outspoken of, like we're gonna again,
We're going to get to this more in a second.
But like when she did this, it was pretty historic
and really didn't make news and it should have, right,
so of course.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
And then we have named Doma Sharpa, who at the
age of seventeen, became the youngest woman to summit Mount
Everest in two thousand and eight. She grew up in
a remote mountain village and Nepal, dreaming of climbing herself.
And she said, quote, the Sharpa are known as mountain heroes,
and I always wanted to live up to my name.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
And apparently she did good job. My god, what was
I doing sitting on don't.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Want to think about.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Then we have Sarah Kumalo.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Kumala became the first Black African woman to summit Everest
in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Also a lot of great quotes, and then we did
want to wrap up with some more modern news. In
recent years, organizations run by women have come together to
lead all women summits of Everest. One such group operates
with a local Nepalese organization launched by Nepali entrepreneur Indira Bata.
It employs all Napali women as guides and provides funding
(33:58):
for other local women to train guides. And this is
a pretty big deal because over of the over twenty
two thousand guides in the country, less than nine hundred
are women. It's pretty it's a good earning. This is
not a strict endorsement of this company or again of
climbing efforts, because I know that and itself is controversial,
but just want to right mention it right again.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
We always want to think about the environmental impact, so
that's all we're talking about. But if you're something that
intrigues you make.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Sure you get your research.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yes on again, if you're thinking this has been a
lot of white folks, you are correct, though we don't
want to erase what women of color have done. Still
of the about four thousand people who have some of
the Everest, only eight of them have been black. Again,
there are some efforts to change that, and yeah, there
are already people.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Doing amazing things.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Of course, just a reminder, so many conversations about this,
but the opportunity, the affordability, accessibility, and probably just the
overall racism can be factors.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
Or why this is.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
And then one of these efforts, by the way, is
a group of black climbers and mountaineers called a Full Circle.
In the words of a member, Rosemary Saul, it is
an expedition that is certainly about climbing, it is about
spending time in the mountains, but it's also about building community,
global community, and it's about changing the narrative of the
black community, particularly in the United States, and how we
(35:22):
interact with outdoor spaces. Yeah, and in twenty twenty two
they became the first all black team to summit Everest.
There's also Brown Girls Climbing, which is a US organization
dedicated to introducing climbings to girls of color.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
And you know, we've talked about the hiking.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Experience, wilderness experience with other organizations and why this is
important that they are able to build that community.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
It's beautiful to see.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yes, and a good source to check out complete with
people to follow on social media is melaninbasecamp dot com.
And then in twenty twenty one, Soriah Sarhati Nelson, who
is working on a book about women African climbers, reported
on an Afghan mountaineering women's team stranded in Afghanistan after
the US left. When the Taliban was in charge. Previously,
(36:08):
women and girls were not allowed to participate in sports,
but in the post Taliban era they have fought to
compete and they have had successes. When the Taliban regained control,
some started banning women from participating once again, and this
team's trapped.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
It was an.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Upsetting and very informative article, but it was kind of
using this team to look at what's going on in
Afghanistan at large for women.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
Right. Yeah, obviously, again, this is one of the big
conversations of who has accessibility to doing these things and
why the numbers for those marginalized people are so low,
and how it's not their fault.
Speaker 4 (36:49):
Is literally society's fault.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yes, yes, and definitely like.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Not to harp on this point, but harp on this point,
like As the climbing of mountains has become more commercialized,
more and more people are doing it, and I'm happy
to see like it's becoming more diversified. But as we've
said throughout, do your research, because we've all, I think
a lot of us have seen the pictures now of
like the line to suit Everest and the trash that's everywhere. Like, right,
(37:20):
if you're going to do it, you have to be respectful,
take care of the environment, think about what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Yeah, right, and also yeah, all that to understand that
if native people of that land are asking you something,
not even asking you, but pleading with you, yes, to
not do something, Let's listen.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
Let's listen.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yes, yes, yes, I mean there's so many there's so
much we could talk about with this, but we're we've
got to stay our feminist. It's hard because I want
to talk about it, but those podcasts do exist, and
there is so much information out there about this, and
I am glad that I got to to share some mountaineers.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Except for the tragic but you know, yes, it happens.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
It does.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
That's what the whole thing got started because I was
just curious.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
I'm just curious. Well, if we have anybody in our.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Audience who's a mountaineer who has climbed some mountains, we
would love to hear from you. Pictures too, Yes, oh
my gosh, yes, send us pictures. You can email us
at Steffidia mom Stuff at iheartmeia dot com. You can
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on
Instagram at stuff I Never Told You Things is always
to our super producer Christina.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
Thank you Christina, and thank see you for listening.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Stuff on Ever Told Your Prediction?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
By Heart Radio For more podcast from my heart Radio,
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