March 26, 2025 • 54 mins
The intersection between mental health and relationships is not often discussed and frequently misunderstood. Relationship coach, author and podcaster Allison Raskin joins us to shed some light on this conversation, with bonus discussion of rom-com tropes.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm of some stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I never told you a protection of iHeartRadio and today
we are so happy to be joined by relationship coach, screenwriter, author,
podcaster so much more Allison Askin, thank you so much
(00:30):
for joining us.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Hey, welcome, Ah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
It is a delight to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
It is a delight.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I have to say.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I was reading one of your books last night and
I was crying.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You've got me good.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, yeah, I was just I was just thinking about things.
I was just being introspective, which we're going to talk about,
but you brought up a lot of like, you know what,
I should really examine that, I should really think about
that for me. But yes, we're so so so excited
to have you. We're so lucky we get to talk
to amazing people in the show. Can you please introduce
(01:08):
yourself to our audience.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I can, and I will try to be as concise
as possible, just because I've done a.
Speaker 5 (01:15):
Lot of different things.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
But I'd say that how I present myself now is
I'm a relationship coach, a mental health advocate, and I'm
also a podcaster and writer. So I came up you
if you were big into BuzzFeed video back in the day.
That sort of launched my career. From there, I had
a YouTube channel called Just between Us that's now a
(01:40):
podcast with my co host, Gabe Dunn. And then in
addition to just going the more like mainstream like trying
to sell TV shows, movies, track, I also sort of
took this pivot in my career into like the mental
health space. So I got a master's degree in psychology,
and I've written two nonfiction books about the intersection between
(02:00):
mental health and romantic relationships. And then, most recently, which
I'm really excited to talk about, I have my first
rom com novel coming out, which sort of lets me
examine all of those things in a fictional fun lens.
And that book is called Save the Date and it's
out April eighth. So I'm very excited to be venturing
into that new genre as an author and just as
(02:22):
like a fan.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Oh, we're going to talk about that more for sure later.
But congratulations, that's awesome, Thank you. Yes, it is difficult
when we have there are so many topics we could
obviously ask you about because you have done so much,
and it can be hard to narrow it down to
this can't be like a ten part series. Well I
guess it could be, but that's not what it is. Today.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
I am available.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
As a regular because that's a huge topic in conversation.
Relationships and mental health. Is that, Man, it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, there's a lot to cover, it is, and that
was definitely one of the things we wanted to focus
on in this conversation because you talk a lot about
the intersection of mental health when it comes to relationships.
So just to give us kind of a foundation, can
(03:21):
you break down some basic ways that mental health and
relationships can intersect.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Definitely, So I really like to think about it as
romantic relationships, and a lot of what I end up
saying about romantic relationships do apply to you know, friendships,
family relationships. But you know, for the sake of clarity,
I kind of come into it through the romantic relationship lens.
(03:47):
You know, that's the area of our life where we
are the most vulnerable, where we are expected to be
like the most intimate, and it's also.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
An area of our life where rejection.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Is the most common outcome, right Like often, you know,
we feel a different not everyone, but there's you know,
like friendship breakups aren't talked about the same way like
family estrangement obviously happens, but it's definitely not the norm
where when you enter into the dating world, like rejection
(04:20):
is sort of inevitable, right, And so it can really
impact our mental health in this way because on the
one hand, it can just really alter our sense of
self and the way that we handle that rejection and
the beliefs we have around rejection. And additionally, because it's
this area where we are so vulnerable, it can sort
of exacerbate underlying mental health issues that we might be
(04:43):
dealing with. So it might be this sense of where
we're losing control of ourselves, where our anxiety is peaked
more than it would normally be, or it's just that
you struggle with your mental health and now you're having
to have this new person be witnessed to that right
to see what it is like to live with OCD,
what it is like to live with being bipolar, to
(05:05):
really let them in with this understanding that they can
then say no thank you, which is really terrifying.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, it certainly is. And you were You've been very
open about your own experiences in that realm of having
something like OCD and dating and how that can manifest
in this huge variety of ways. Can you talk a
(05:36):
little bit about some of the ways that dating can
look differently for someone who has anxiety or who has OCD.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
So the obsessionality can be really amped up, right, So,
like I remember when I was dating, like if someone
didn't text me back, that became intolerable, Like I could
not just exist in the world knowing that someone I
(06:05):
liked had in texted me back, Like it was it
was all consuming, it was all I thought about. And
then the reaction is to try to make that distress
go away by sending the second text, by sending the
third text, by sort of engaging in this way that
I objectively knew was not how I wanted to be
(06:26):
presenting myself to that person, but I felt unable to
control it because my desire to alleviate the discomfort was
so huge. And so that's sort of how we can
sort of like lose track of ourselves where it's like
why did I behave like that?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
It's like, because you.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Were just so in such dysregulation and so much distress,
you were doing anything you could to feel better. But
unfortunately the roots to feel better ended up maybe harming
the relationship that you were trying to st Also, just
the idea of checking, right, Like a lot of OCD
(07:04):
can be around checking if that something is okay. So
the checking of like, you know, do you like me?
Do you like me enough? Where is this going? You know?
I was very insistent on feeling like it was heading
every relationship was heading towards commitment, and then every relationship
was heading towards marriage and unfortunately, like that's not like
(07:25):
super fun or viable in your mid twenties with a
lot of people, and you know, looking back at the time,
I was like, well, that's just what I wanted for myself.
And now I realized like it was me trying to
find a sense of safety. I felt that if I
could get to that level of commitment, then I could
finally relax, I could finally feel in control of my life.
(07:49):
And it was only once I had my broken engagement
and my fiance left that I was like, oh, these
goalposts don't actually provide safety. Like you can be engaged,
they can leave abruptly in the middle of the week.
You can be married and you end up divorce. Like
the illusion of safety doesn't actually exist or protect you.
(08:10):
And so I've had to really reshape my relationship towards
uncertainty in all areas of my life and my tolerance
for discomfort to be able to still strive to have
the relationships that I want to have while accepting the
risk that's inherent in having them.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Sounds like you've had to work through a lot in
get in getting here, as well as learning about it
through an educational lens, which is I'm very fascinated by this.
We'll come back to that, because one of the things
when you talk about relationships and when you talk about
mental health lately, that's a whole TikTok trip, right, Everybody
trying to find these little like diagnosis and telling you
(08:49):
what's wrong with you and telling you have this and
these are the signs in your relationships. But with that,
we know people get it wrong. So what are some
of the things that you think a lot of people
get wrong when they think about this or have this
conversation or try to do this as a trend.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
I have a very mixed relationship towards diagnosing and pathologizing
because for me, having had an OCD diagnos since since
I was four years old was actually so helpful and
so affirmative in my life that the way that I
(09:24):
was behaving was because of a disorder in my brain.
Like I take a very externalizing approach to my OCD.
I view it as an illness. I view it as
something that is on top of my true self. And
by being able to do that and being able to
label certain thoughts as OCD thoughts, it allows me to
stay true to who I am and to not give
(09:46):
it as much.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
Power over me.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
So I'm very pro diagnosis when it is helpful and.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
True, right.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
I think that sometimes there can be an overpathologizing that
is happening that actually leads to a lack of flexibility
that is necessary for us to like adapt to what
is actually happening in our different context. It's like, and
it can also lead to sort of like limited information
(10:17):
around something if you're getting it from just like a
really quick and easy source.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Like so, for.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Example, there's like a lot around attachment style. That's that's
very you know, zeitgeisty and attachment is a really important
thing to understand and it's helpful to know about. But
I think something people don't understand is that your attachment
style can change, right like and and honestly the goal
is for it to change and to become secure. And
(10:44):
also your attachment style can show up differently in different relationships.
So it's I think that some people have taken it
on as an identity and I find I find that
that could potentially be harmful because it it it makes
it seem like growth is impossible and that change in
relationship isn't possible. And it also it becomes this shorthand
(11:07):
that sort of oversimplifies the complexity that is each of
our own individual experiences.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Absolutely, and that that's one of the things I love
about your writing is that you are you delve into
those complexities and those nuances and how it can because
I feel like a lot of times, you know, when
you're in a relationship or when you break up, you
want to be like that person was wrong. It definitely
wasn't me that kind of that kind of talk, but
(11:38):
you were, you were very like, well, here's what was
going on here, and hear what was going on here,
like looking into all of all of what was happening
and the mistakes people made. But something else you talked
about that really resonated with me. Is that you for
a while held onto this belief that you would find
your one true love and they would fix you, that
(12:02):
would be that that's just what you needed, and it
was like part of your driving factor of why you
wanted to find this life partner and why it was
so stressful and when it came to dating. So can
you talk about why that was and what it meant
(12:23):
for you when you realized that it wasn't true.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
I think a lot of it had to do with,
you know, growing up mentally ill and not having good
social skills and really struggling in my friendships and in dating,
and feeling like an outsider that I wasn't living life
correctly and that I was just like waiting for the
next phase, like for my life to really start and
(12:49):
begin and to feel comfortable in my own skin. And
I really felt that by being chosen, by having this
like life partner and buddy, that I could like relax,
you know, that I could sink into that. My parents
had a really beautiful marriage until my mother unfortunately passed
away this last September, and they were such a rock
(13:13):
for me that I was like, well, if I can
just get what they have, then I'll finally feel like
at peace with myself and I'll be able to engage
in life and enjoy my experiences more. And you know
what shifted for me wasn't that I stopped wanting a partner, right, Like,
that's like a that would be like a fun neat
(13:34):
story of like, and then I learned I just needed
to be by myself. Like that's actually not my journey
and a narrative that I kind of actively push against
because what I've come to understand is having a life
partner or having periods of your life with the partner.
You know, not all partnerships last till death, but it's
(13:55):
a lifestyle choice. It's just a way that you build
your day to day life that is different than people
that don't want that choice, right, Like, I'm someone that
just genuinely thrives and enjoys partnership. I really love living
with my husband. I love having a husband. I love
(14:18):
the friendship that our marriage brings with it. I love
that like there's another person to walk the dog, that
there's someone that makes me dinner and that I show
up for and he shows up for me, and we
are checking in on each other, and there is like
this interdependence that I really find a lot of strength
and freedom in, Like I always say, like, it would
(14:39):
have been much harder for me to complete my grad
school program if I didn't have my husband there like
helping me. And now he's in grad school full time
and I'm supporting him while he does that, and that's like,
that's like sort of what like the strength of partnership.
But what I had to adjust to was this idea
(15:01):
that without that piece, I was worthless, right, because that's
a step that's unnecessary. It's unnecessary to say that without
someone picking me, I my life has no value or
something is wrong with me. Instead, it was coming to
terms with the fact that like I had to really
like myself. I had to become someone that I really liked,
(15:22):
and then through that I could attract someone that felt
the same way, rather than attracting someone that maybe like
was like half in not in or feeling like I
had to change for them. And it also created this
different dynamic where when I was dating, it was like
take me, like not take me or leave me, because
I you know, I don't like love the If you
(15:44):
can't have me at my worst, you know you don't
deserve me.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
At my best.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Like we we're responsible for our our actions and we
shouldn't treat our partners badly. But you know, like a
level of like someone's rejection did not sway me the
way that it would have because I was more secure
in who I was. So it became safer to engage
with dating because rejection, while painful, wasn't mentally dangerous. It
(16:11):
wasn't destabilizing in the same way. It was more like, Okay,
onto the next because like, I know what I want
and who I am, and I like that, and so
that was the shift more so than rejecting my desire
for partnership.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I'm
not gonna lie. I'm sitting here. I'm like analyzing the
characters of Sex and the City as I know. That's
a weird moment. I'm like, Charlotte really needed to hear this.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
I absolutely love that that's where you were going.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
I don't know why that just popped in my head,
but I was like, yeah, instead of myself probably absolute
need this advice. I'm just like Charlotte, I'm definitely hard.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
She's someone that thrives in partnership, right, but she had
to figure out how to how to approach it in
a in a healthier way.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
See, maybe we need to you back on to watch.
We do a series where we watch and then analyze
what's happening and how well it stood up at the
test of time. Maybe we need you to come and
be a part of that episode.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
I would be honored.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I love that show for better worse.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
I could watch it all day long, every day.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
All with all the bad, there's some real good stuff
in it, and the rewatch has been amazing. But yeah,
I think we're gonna have to put that as a
side note. Alan Text in the City Obviously, Again, all
(17:39):
this is such great advice, and you're writing it out
to give this people advice. You're also doing the relationship coaching,
which I know you said you've done a few appointments
today just today alone, which is awesome. So in your
work you've spoken about disparities you've seen around mental health
and the marginalized folks and the communities. Can you speak
about that, because that's seems like such a big important
(18:01):
conversation we don't have enough of when it comes to relationships.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
So, I mean, look, the history of psychology is not
a pretty one. It's like been very much built around
like white males, like white straight males, and so I
understand why there's definitely reluctance in certain communities to really
engage with mental health treatment and mental health professionals because
(18:27):
there's an inherent distrust that I think deserves to be there.
And I find that to be just kind of heartbreaking
for those communities because you know, for every bad clinician,
there's a good clinician, and so it but the issue
is how do you rebuild the trust in different communities
(18:49):
that either are have had negative experiences or have been
taught that that's not something that they should seek out
because there's still a.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Lot of stigma around it. And so what I'm really.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Hoping is is just that the access you know, that's
one of the positives of this social media at all,
is like having access to more voices in the in
the mental health field, hearing from other people who have
had better experiences. And something I think that's really important
to do is to make it known what bad therapy
(19:27):
looks like, because if you don't know what bad therapy
looks like, you might be having a bad experience and thinking, well,
that's me or you know, like I'm not fixable or
I'm just a bad client, and it's like, no, there
are just bad therapists help there and we don't ever
talk about that. And so like things to look for are,
you know, as someone who is like tries to assume
(19:53):
expertise over your own life, right, like you're the expert
in your life, and someone that is a ten to
like overpower that or in some way really use like
an even power dynamic to put you down if you're
feeling judged by a therapist, if you feel like your
therapist has absolutely no understanding of your culture. You know,
(20:15):
you see this a lot where people from certain really
community family focused cultures, the therapists will just be like, well,
just don't just don't see your parents, like just don't
go to family events anymore, if like that's stressful to you,
and it's like, excuse me, I'm from like a Latin
community and I can't possibly do that, Like what are
you talking about? You know, So finding therapists that are
(20:40):
you know, have cultural humility is really important. Finding therapists
that understand what you're actually dealing with. Not all therapists
are specialized in every.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Issue or disorder.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Right, so there's going to be therapists that are not
very familiar with OCD, or therapists that are not super
trauma informed and then are trying to CBT your way
out of trauma. That isn't going to work. And so
I think really empowering people to have a better understanding
of what to expect and to let them know that
(21:12):
these are people that they're they're flawed and that, and
that you're allowed to be picky around who you who
you engage with, and and you know, having started this
coaching business, I definitely had some reservations around being a
(21:33):
relationship coach, especially having gotten a master's in psychology and
being in school with people that were going the licensing route,
and you know, part of me was like, is this unethical?
Like am I just sort of like cheating the system
by you know, being a.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Coach where I don't have a I don't have a license.
There is not a.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Licensing board that is supervising, you know that, Like someone
can't just like go and complain to me about me
to a licensing board. But what's been really interesting in
doing the work is I think that coaching allows for
some freedom and directiveness that traditional therapy doesn't. And so
(22:22):
I think that there really is space for both of
these things, and it's about what you want and what
you're looking for. So one of the reasons I didn't
become a licensed therapist is because I'm a public figure.
I mean, you probably haven't heard of me, but if
you look me up on the internet, there's like, you know,
hundreds of hours of me talking.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
You can read my books like you can.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
You know so much about me if you wanted to
engage with that, And I felt like that wasn't going
to be safe for certain clients under the traditional therapy model.
I felt like that if you're going to a therapist,
you really want them to be maybe not a blank slate,
but to not know the intimate personal details of their life.
(23:08):
That's just not what the what the field is set
up around. And so I felt like I couldn't really
work within the confines of therapy.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
But I also felt like I.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Really did want to do this work with people and coaching,
I think the buy in is so different. The buy
in is that they do know who I am, and
that they do know the things that I have gone through,
and so like maybe whereas like if you went to
your therapist and you were like, I just saw video
that you had a broken engagement, Like why would I
trust you? My clients come to me and they're like,
(23:41):
I saw you survived a broken engagement.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
That's why I trust you.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
And so I think it's kind of exciting that there
are these two kind of different options. And coaching also
really allows me to be much more directive, Like I
can give my opinion in a way that like therapists
really are not supposed to. I do it with you know,
in communication with my client, I'm always like, you can
push back, you don't have to agree with me. How
(24:07):
is this feeling? But they're they're they're coming to me
because they want a more directive approach, And I think
that that can really be an avenue for people who,
you know, have felt maybe that therapy was just them
talking and they weren't really getting the advice or tools
or strategies that they're looking for. And and so I
(24:28):
think it's I think it's exciting that that there's both.
But you know, I also have a huge obligation to
be as ethical as possible, to let people know my limitations,
to make it very clear I'm not licensed, but I
think I think whereas when I started this it was
more like, oh, no, is it bad, I'm not a therapist.
Now I'm like, oh, I love that I'm not a therapist.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Right, No, I think that that makes perfect sense because
a lot of people who come into like coaching routes,
like life coaching all that, oftentimes do it because they're
they're good at giving advice and people like their advice.
But the fact that you actually went ahead and did
your education and did a background that says a lot
to how grounded you are in that work. So absolutely
kudos with all of that. And I do have a
(25:13):
couple of questions. My background is in social work, and
honestly I did not go into licensing or any of
that as well. I did not do the micro practices
in general, however, cause I do have two parts, so
one I'll split it up. So here's the first part.
What's the advice you have when it comes to talking
about your mental health with a partner.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
This is really tricky, right, because sometimes when you're just
starting to date and you've had a pretty significant mental
health history, there's a desire to sort of share compulsively
where it's like, let me just put it all out
there so that you can either say yes or.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
No to my entire life.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
And what I really advise people to do instead is
to share with purpose and to being control of the
sharing and what they're sharing and why they're sharing it. So,
for example, you know, if you are just still casually
getting to know someone, it might be okay to be like, yeah,
I have anxiety, I take you know, I take zol
(26:15):
Oft and I found it really helpful, and then you
like continue bowling. But if you are getting you know,
deeper and more close with someone, then it can make
sense to go more into like all the history and
the things that have happened. But also I think it's
it can be really important to lead with who you
(26:36):
are now right because sometimes there are elements of our
mental health story that can be rather shocking and upsetting
but is not necessarily a representative of who we are
in this moment, and so I think it can be
important to say, like, you know, right now, like I'm
(26:57):
in therapy, I'm doing really well, this is something that
I'm on top of. Yes, in the past, like I
did really struggle with suicidal ideation, and maybe you know,
maybe you even had an attempt, but that's different than
being actively suicidal in this moment, and like being able
to say, like, and here are the steps that I
took to protect myself from you know, falling back into
(27:21):
that into that place. And so I think that really
presenting your mental health history as something that is your
responsibility is also a way to keep the person from
feeling like they are now taking on that by being
with you. It's really saying like, this is a thing
(27:41):
that I've been dealing with and that I'm I'm on
top of, and so I'm telling you because I want
you to get to know me more, not because this
is your problem to deal with or to fix. And
if you're someone where it's like you're in a place
where you don't really have a handle on those things,
then that might just be as that might just be
an indicator that that looking for a relationship right now
(28:04):
might not be the might not be the best thing
for you.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That's one of those moments where like when you're coming
out with all the trauma all at once, with all
the peoples, you might want to think about handling that
trauma just for a minute.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
But the way with the way we share signals how
the other person receives it. Right, So if I share
with shame, if I share with agitation, if I share
with the expectation that you're going to be shocked or
uncomfortable or like really uninterested afterwards, then that person's going
(28:38):
to kind of take take those that agitation and feelings on.
But if you share from a place of ownership, if
you share from a place of I have I have
an understanding of this, I have a conceptualization of what
has happened, and I'm just giving you information so that
you can get to know me. The way they're going
to receive that information is likely different, all right.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
So this is the second part, because as a person
who's been in the field for a while, how do you,
as the person who has seen these things, has worked
with people, separate analyzing everybody to death from your relationships?
Do you know what I mean? When I come into
like new relationship, my immediate with like, let me diagnose
them with the following things. These are things that I
(29:20):
see of you, like, how do you do how do
you stop that?
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (29:27):
That's so interesting. I guess I don't have too too
much of that instinct.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
I will say a disproportionate amount of people in my
life probably have OCD, and I have wondered if that
is just like like attracting like or like what that's about,
do you know? And so that that that can sometimes
be Probably maybe the thing that that that pops up
the most for me is like if I'll see certain
(29:54):
you know, and I think I'll see certain OCD tendencies,
or they'll they'll like end up sharing that with me
to sort of gauge my reaction on it. But I
think for the most part, I've I've gotten to a
place of I'm not so interested and necessarily like diagnosing someone.
I'm interested in understanding them. And so like if I
(30:16):
if I learn something about their family, It'll be like,
oh and that makes sense blank. Like if I learned
something about their job or their or how they view
the world, then I'll be like okay, Like it's sort
of like I'm putting these puzzle pieces together rather than
like hunting for like a label or something like that.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, I've been I've been accused of bane little too
too intense with my.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Question perhaps how you've got on this show.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Because you're at a cheese Nike together and all of
a sudden I'm spilling my heart out, Tom.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And then my next conversation is we need therapy. We
should do this all the mic.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Anyway here, Definitely, this is something.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
This is actually a conversation. We have a lot Smith
and I on this show. You are very open about
a lot of things that have happened in your life,
and we often we talk about where are our boundaries
and what is helpful and what is not helpful for us,
(31:35):
And that conversation can look different for everybody. But but
for you, do you have you found kind of your
like a balance in what you'll share and what you won't.
Is it something you find really liberating or is it
something you find frightening or all of the above.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
My rule is really about what is mine and what
is someone else's. So I'd say that the biggest boundaries
I have are with things that involve other people. So
I have to be really mindful about when I'm talking
about something regarding my husband or my.
Speaker 5 (32:09):
Family or other beings.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
So that's where like there's stuff where like you got like,
my audience just has no idea about certain areas of
my life. And it's not because I want to keep
it from them. It's because I have to honor the
privacy of people in my life and who I care about.
And then I'd say, the only other really big boundary
I have is around, like my sex life is something
(32:35):
I really don't like talking about. I had to write
about it and Overthinking about You because I was like,
this would just not be fair not to And so
at the time I just told my mom and dad,
I was like, just don't read chapter six. And you know, honestly, like,
now that my mom is dead and my dad doesn't
really listen to my stuff, I'm like, who knows what's coming?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Now?
Speaker 5 (33:02):
That's been. That's been probably.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
Like the biggest boundary that is that is mine that
I've sort of created because of my comfort level. But
if you read again, if you read chapter six of Overthinking.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
About You, you will sort of learn quite quite a bit.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
H you got that far, I can tell you were
you were very uncomfortable, but you you're fighting through it.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Very Yeah, it was great.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
It was very because you were so open about it
and you were like, I am uncomfortable. I'm going to
tell you, but we're going to get through this.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
And then I had to read the audio book.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I was like Oh my.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
God, why did I put this print?
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yes, yeah, we just had not like a couple of
years ago. We just had that experience of like, if
we had known this was the audio, we would have
not been in this way.
Speaker 5 (33:57):
You have the audio engineer.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
He was like you real quick.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Something else that you have written a lot about are
modern relationships and marriage, which makes sense. What are some
of the ways that you think modern relationships are different
just inherently kind of things are changing.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
They're not societally required in the same way, which is
so exciting, right.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
I mean, boomers have like the highest divorce rate, and
I think it's because they had to get married, and
they had to do it young, and they had to
do it without you know, as much discernment as maybe
they wanted to have, because it was a certain time,
a certain place. Here's who I'm dating, let's get to go.
And I think, you know, as someone who is actually
(34:52):
really pro marriage, I think one of the best things
about modern marriage is less people are getting married. And
that's good good because marriage isn't for everyone, and it
doesn't make sense for everyone, and it is a very
specific choice that has to align with your values and
what you want for yourself. And I also think, you know,
(35:12):
as I explored a lot and I do. I think
the idea that now we get to create what marriage
is for us as a partnership between two individuals, rather
than trying to fit ourselves into the institution of marriage
and whatever that is like preconceived to be. Like my
marriage can look totally different than your marriage, and like
(35:35):
how wonderful is that?
Speaker 5 (35:38):
So rather than like a.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Complete rejection of the institution, I really encourage people to
have a reimagining of it and also decide if it's
something that even makes sense for them.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I love that I say this as a person also
in a very weird place of like, nah, I'm good,
no marriage from me. I've seen that. I'm good. We're
fine with the partnership here, but with marriages and a
lot of experiences, we're gonna let's let's talk about your
newest release. Uh, how was this experience of writing a
(36:09):
fictional rom com like rom com book that obviously you
said you were a fan of, especially because you involved
your own life like you did some real personal like
perspective into a rom com. Tell us about this experience.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
So Save the Date was based on a joke my
father made and he's so proud of himself, which was
basically in twenty twenty, my fiance just like abruptly left
me with like little to no explanation, and it was
like peak pandemic. Like I had to fly home to
New York to grieve, but like I had to like
(36:45):
be in a mask and separated from my family for
the first week, and like the first few days afterwards,
like when I was still in LA Like my friends
came to visit me, but like they couldn't hug me,
you know.
Speaker 5 (36:55):
So I'm just like sobbing.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
In a parking lot and they're just like reaching towards me.
But like it was just as dramatic as as it
could possibly be.
Speaker 5 (37:03):
And so I get home and I'm like recovering.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
I'm recuperating, and my dad is like, well, you know,
we still have a wedding planner, Like why don't you
just try to find a groom in time for your
original wedding?
Speaker 5 (37:13):
And I was like, Dad, that is bonkers.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
What a wonderful idea for a fictional story. So you know,
it wasn't something I dived into right away, like I,
you know, obviously needed space to heal. I needed space
to fall in love again and sort of like emerge
from that chapter in my life in order to kind
(37:39):
of go back.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
And fictionalize it.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
But it was really fun to sort of like I
kind of describe it as sort of like a multiverse
version of my broken engagement, like if I had taken
a different route, because so much of what happened during
that time was that I had been writing over Thinking
About You during period of my life, and so I
actively had to sit down and delete my fiance from
(38:07):
my book, like I had to like go through and
like edit him out and it, and like the entire
final chapter of Overthinking About You was a chapter about
my relationship with him and how we were building.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
This beautiful life for ourselves. I to just I have
to just cut the whole thing out, and I had to.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
I had to come up with a new like a
new ending. And the ending went from you know, how.
Speaker 5 (38:34):
Do you know, how do you build a life together?
To like how do you not give up?
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Like how do you keep going even after your very
worst fear came true? Which to me was like just
like being rejected by this person I'd finally felt that
level of safety with And how do I not have
this massive backslide in my sense of self and my
mental health and all of these things. I ended up
(39:00):
like applying all of the lessons I'd learned in my
research to myself. And so then I really wanted the
novel to to incorporate that story as well, to not
just be like, you know, it's Zany obviously, like she's
obviously behaving badly in a lot of ways by kind
(39:20):
of keeping to this plan, but but you know, to
to have it be more than just saving her personal face,
but her sort of trying, you know. In the book,
Emma is a is a couple therapists sort of turned YouTuber,
So she she has this like online following and there's
this like public element to what she's doing, and so
(39:40):
for her it really becomes more about sort of like
making this point about love and about and about commitment
and compatibility and how you know, I think in the
Western culture, we have this idea that things have to
follow this very specific timeline and path before it's acceptable
to get married. Where you know, another cultures, it's like
(40:01):
you don't have that same expectation of having known each
other for as long. And so she was sort of
pushing back against some of these cultural norms and ideas,
and it allowed me to sort of explore that stuff
within this really fun structure and genre of a of
a traditional rom com. So it really got to scratch
both my itch as like a as a as a
fiction writer, a screenwriter, and then also as as you know,
(40:24):
a mental health advocate and relationship expert.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yes, I love that. Well, you've mentioned you you're a
big fan of a genre rom comms.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
We over here love tropes.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Why do you think some of these romance these rom
com tropes, why are they so enduring? And what do
you think are some of the most harmful ones?
Speaker 5 (40:56):
Ooh interesting.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
I think every story has been told before, like you know,
I think that there's this idea that like you know,
that's similar to that?
Speaker 5 (41:07):
How dare you?
Speaker 4 (41:08):
And it's like everything is similar to everything. The difference
is the details and there can and there's a reason
that certain tropes and stories and plot points work because
they're satisfying to us, like that it is satisfying for
there to for the end of Act two to be,
you know, the dark day of the soul and like
the dark night of the soul, and then for like
(41:29):
things to turn around and act three. Like that's like
we like knowing where the story is going.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Obviously some things are more avant garde or break the rules,
and that's cool too, but they're like knowing like enemies
to lovers, like where I'm here.
Speaker 5 (41:43):
For, I know I'm going to get a happy ending.
Speaker 4 (41:45):
And I think that that's the best trope of a
romance book is it is not a romance book. If
these people do not end up together, it is something else.
It can be something great, but it's not a romance.
And so as someone who is like very old over
all of the devastation and sadness that is the world
and wants to go to narrative to escape that, to
(42:08):
not just be hit over the head with like sadness
and desperation all the time, I think like knowing that,
like that's what you're getting in for with the romance
book is so great. I think maybe you know, harmful
tropes are like I think you know where like the
relationship dynamic is not actually healthy, right, So like any
(42:31):
sort of thing where someone is a captive or you know,
take an advantage of or you know, anything that glorifies
abuse in any way don't love that, you know. But
I think for the majority of what's going on in
this genre, it's more it's more just like wish fulfillment
really letting you explore really complex elements of human life
(42:57):
without it feeling like you're logging through something that is
just like purely dramatic or traumatic or sad. I mean,
that's kind of where I really am excited to be
in this genre is because I can like explore mental
health in this way. I don't have to like get
someone to buy into a book about about being unlovable
(43:18):
and anxiety. I get someone to buy into the idea
of like a fun rom com where a girl tries
to find a groom in time for original wedding date.
That I get to add that stuff, you know. And
my next one is all about OCD and grief and
like these you know, these subjects that are not inherently
what you would think about with the romance, but like
(43:39):
is what you're allowed to explore in that genre so
long as you're hitting the satisfying beats of two people
falling in love.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yes, that's so fantastic. Well, speaking of you've also written
a lot about breakups. Obviously, that's a big part of dating,
and as you mentioned this book, you do you bring
in elements of that, and you've written about how you know,
(44:09):
after that happened, you were worried people would be like, oh,
why should I go to her? Like you were saying
about the therapy or all of that. But you've also
written about the kind of the intersection of mental health
and the breakup. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 4 (44:28):
So I think breakups are really devastating, even if you're
at your most mentally stable, but you know, if you
are someone that has real ups and downs in their
mental health, it can be very pretty destabilizing. And so
I think that it's important to honor and understand how
(44:48):
deeply painful a breakup is and to put in some
added support to yourself to get yourself through that situation.
And I also think it's important to not engage certain
harmful thought patterns around it. So one of the most
harmful thought patterns I find is the what if thoughts
of like what if I had done this differently, what
(45:11):
if we had.
Speaker 5 (45:11):
Met earlier, what if? What if? What if?
Speaker 4 (45:14):
And it's trying to solve a problem that that already happened,
right it's like and it's trying to solve something that
you would never know the answer to, Like I will
never know if my fiance would have stayed if there
hadn't been a pandemic, Like I suspect probably, but I
don't know, And so my hunt to know is is
(45:38):
a useless quest that can really stir up rumination and
can really get us trapped in the past and make
it hard for us to move forward. So I really
like instead to encourage people to take a radical acceptance
point of view when it comes to a breakup, where
it is like, obviously, this is not what I wanted
(45:58):
to happen, but this is what happened, and since it
is what happened, what do.
Speaker 5 (46:02):
I do now?
Speaker 4 (46:04):
Rather than focusing on the past or feeling like it
means some great thing about your future, right, we tend
to catastrophize this person left, that means everyone will leave me.
I'm heartbroken now, I will be heartbroken forever. Like really
trying to look at what is true, what is logical,
and where can we go from here rather than overly
(46:26):
predicting the future or staying in the past.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Yes, and Samantha and I love a good activity or
a good thought experiment, and you have a lot of
those in your books about reframing those sort of thoughts
and identifying the helpful ones and not helpful ones. I
wanted to ask you this and it could be your
answer to just no.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
But I as a podcast that is in the intersectional
feminist space, sometimes it gives me pause that that relationship
podcasts are often gendered as feminine for women.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
Has that been your experience, Like we know rom coms are,
but like relationship podcasts are. So I was just curious
to getting thoughts about that or maybe you haven't seen that.
Speaker 4 (47:18):
It's just me, you know, I think that they're you know,
writing especially my most recent nonfiction about I Do I
think about modern marriage. The book is very non gendered
and it is very inclusive at least really that was
a priority for me. But it was also important to
(47:39):
acknowledge that historically women have been more victims of harmful marriages,
that the patriarchal nature of marriage has often harmed women
to a high degree, And so it feels impossible to
also completely approach relationships as existing outside of the gender binary.
(48:05):
Because I think that the reality is the way that
our lives and society have been structured, is that women
often do bear the brunt of some unfairness and inequality,
and so I understand perhaps why women are drawn to
these conversations because it is hard to know how to
(48:28):
build an equitable relationship and how to build a safer relationship.
And so my goal is that, like we as we
build more and more of those and as people have
better models of relationships, that it won't be seen as
something that is such a gender topic. But I think
that there's still a lot of work to be done there.
(48:48):
But I love when I hear I gave my partner
your book, or my partner introduced me to this, and
you know, I think that you know, women and and
queer people just tend to be more cued into this stuff,
which is part of the bigger problem, right, But like
what an honor to get to to have such such
(49:11):
a such a wonderful audience.
Speaker 5 (49:13):
And you know.
Speaker 4 (49:15):
The goal is is for this just to spread even more,
especially as we're dealing with such a such an issue
with masculinity in this culture.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting conversation in general, because
when you think about what's happening when you hear complaints
in a marriage. Oftentimes women see it first and try
to fix it on their own and by the time
the husbands and this is obviously very heteronormative, but like
by the time the husbands are like being told there's
a problem that is towards the end of like this
(49:47):
is unfixable, oftentimes.
Speaker 5 (49:49):
Not well, maybe by the time they listen.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yes, and that's like all of those things are such.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
I think often they're told and they're not taking it
seriously correct.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I think what of that due is that that level
of like when it comes to keeping a family, they
really put it on women's shoulders to being like you're
you're the reason to either stays together or falls apart,
which is such a that's a whole different topic.
Speaker 5 (50:13):
So we'll have to have you on episodes.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
I'll have to have you back on that for that.
But with all of that, I know you've talked to
a lot of people, and obviously a lot of people
talk to you about relationships and all the ways they
can look, especially as like we're talking about modern relationships
and how it's changing. Is there something you have heard
or learned from someone else that has changed your perspective
(50:37):
and has stuck with you.
Speaker 4 (50:40):
This was years ago, but I worked with this woman
who's absolutely amazing, and she was going through a divorce
at the time, and she was she like, I wasn't
quite ready to hear it when she said it, but
she was like, he was such a you know, the
divorce was very painful. There was cheating, it was it
was like not good. But she was like, he was
a great person to raise my kids with. And I
think that that really changed my opinion about, like slowly
(51:03):
about about marriage and relationships that like, they don't have
to last forever for them to have still been the
right decision at the time, and that just because something
ultimately ends or shifts dramatically, like your marriage could have
been absolutely wonderful and important and absolutely the right person
for you for the amount of time that they were
(51:24):
the right person for you, rather than it being completely
negated just because it ended.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yeah, and you're and your your books, you interview professionals
and some of the some of the things I was reading,
I was like, oh, I'm gonna have to think about that.
I've never thought about it in that way before, which
is great. And that brings me to what I was
talking about. For introspection. You're really you talk a lot
about you know, think about, think about these things, ask
(51:53):
these questions of yourself. Am I Am I in the
good place to break up just asking those questions? Why
do you think that it's so important?
Speaker 4 (52:03):
I think that we often take our cues from societal
norms or what has worked for people around us, when
really we have to be cued into what works for
us in our present context. So if we don't really
know what's going on with us, or what our capacities
are or our feelings are in that moment, then we
(52:24):
can sort of make decisions that are under the wrong
influence rather than being more aligned with our current self
and our overall values.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Yes, well, clearly you're just going to have to come
back because we have so many questions, so many other
topic ideas. But for now, where can the good listeners
find you? What projects do you have that you want
to shout out all of that?
Speaker 5 (52:56):
Well, I would love for people to order my books
Save the Date.
Speaker 4 (53:00):
It's definitely a romcom heavy on the com if that's
your kind of thing, hopefully, And then you can also
check out my substack Emotional Support Lady, where I have
a weekly post every Tuesday. That's just anything and everything
mental health related. So it's like a really lovely community
over there. I have a weekly podcast called Just between Us,
(53:23):
and if you're interested in my work as a relationship coach,
you can visit alisanaskin dot com and all the other
stuff there too.
Speaker 3 (53:29):
Awesome. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you so much
for joining us.
Speaker 5 (53:33):
Oh this was wonderful.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
Thank you, And you can also contact us if you
would like. You can email us at Hello at Stuffmannever
Told You dot com. You can find us on blue
Sky at momstaff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at
Stuffman Ever Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have
a tea public store, and we have a book you
(53:55):
can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always too,
our super producer Christina are executed for and our Contrbutter Joey.
Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff One
Never Told You's ppdiction of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, you can check out your iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts or reb you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm of some stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I never told you a protection of iHeartRadio and today
we are so happy to be joined by relationship coach, screenwriter, author,
podcaster so much more Allison Askin, thank you so much
(00:30):
for joining us.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Hey, welcome, Ah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
It is a delight to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
It is a delight.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I have to say.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I was reading one of your books last night and
I was crying.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You've got me good.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, yeah, I was just I was just thinking about things.
I was just being introspective, which we're going to talk about,
but you brought up a lot of like, you know what,
I should really examine that, I should really think about
that for me. But yes, we're so so so excited
to have you. We're so lucky we get to talk
to amazing people in the show. Can you please introduce
(01:08):
yourself to our audience.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I can, and I will try to be as concise
as possible, just because I've done a.
Speaker 5 (01:15):
Lot of different things.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
But I'd say that how I present myself now is
I'm a relationship coach, a mental health advocate, and I'm
also a podcaster and writer. So I came up you
if you were big into BuzzFeed video back in the day.
That sort of launched my career. From there, I had
a YouTube channel called Just between Us that's now a
(01:40):
podcast with my co host, Gabe Dunn. And then in
addition to just going the more like mainstream like trying
to sell TV shows, movies, track, I also sort of
took this pivot in my career into like the mental
health space. So I got a master's degree in psychology,
and I've written two nonfiction books about the intersection between
(02:00):
mental health and romantic relationships. And then, most recently, which
I'm really excited to talk about, I have my first
rom com novel coming out, which sort of lets me
examine all of those things in a fictional fun lens.
And that book is called Save the Date and it's
out April eighth. So I'm very excited to be venturing
into that new genre as an author and just as
(02:22):
like a fan.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Oh, we're going to talk about that more for sure later.
But congratulations, that's awesome, Thank you. Yes, it is difficult
when we have there are so many topics we could
obviously ask you about because you have done so much,
and it can be hard to narrow it down to
this can't be like a ten part series. Well I
guess it could be, but that's not what it is. Today.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
I am available.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
As a regular because that's a huge topic in conversation.
Relationships and mental health. Is that, Man, it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, there's a lot to cover, it is, and that
was definitely one of the things we wanted to focus
on in this conversation because you talk a lot about
the intersection of mental health when it comes to relationships.
So just to give us kind of a foundation, can
(03:21):
you break down some basic ways that mental health and
relationships can intersect.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Definitely, So I really like to think about it as
romantic relationships, and a lot of what I end up
saying about romantic relationships do apply to you know, friendships,
family relationships. But you know, for the sake of clarity,
I kind of come into it through the romantic relationship lens.
(03:47):
You know, that's the area of our life where we
are the most vulnerable, where we are expected to be
like the most intimate, and it's also.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
An area of our life where rejection.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Is the most common outcome, right Like often, you know,
we feel a different not everyone, but there's you know,
like friendship breakups aren't talked about the same way like
family estrangement obviously happens, but it's definitely not the norm
where when you enter into the dating world, like rejection
(04:20):
is sort of inevitable, right, And so it can really
impact our mental health in this way because on the
one hand, it can just really alter our sense of
self and the way that we handle that rejection and
the beliefs we have around rejection. And additionally, because it's
this area where we are so vulnerable, it can sort
of exacerbate underlying mental health issues that we might be
(04:43):
dealing with. So it might be this sense of where
we're losing control of ourselves, where our anxiety is peaked
more than it would normally be, or it's just that
you struggle with your mental health and now you're having
to have this new person be witnessed to that right
to see what it is like to live with OCD,
what it is like to live with being bipolar, to
(05:05):
really let them in with this understanding that they can
then say no thank you, which is really terrifying.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, it certainly is. And you were You've been very
open about your own experiences in that realm of having
something like OCD and dating and how that can manifest
in this huge variety of ways. Can you talk a
(05:36):
little bit about some of the ways that dating can
look differently for someone who has anxiety or who has OCD.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
So the obsessionality can be really amped up, right, So,
like I remember when I was dating, like if someone
didn't text me back, that became intolerable, Like I could
not just exist in the world knowing that someone I
(06:05):
liked had in texted me back, Like it was it
was all consuming, it was all I thought about. And
then the reaction is to try to make that distress
go away by sending the second text, by sending the
third text, by sort of engaging in this way that
I objectively knew was not how I wanted to be
(06:26):
presenting myself to that person, but I felt unable to
control it because my desire to alleviate the discomfort was
so huge. And so that's sort of how we can
sort of like lose track of ourselves where it's like
why did I behave like that?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
It's like, because you.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Were just so in such dysregulation and so much distress,
you were doing anything you could to feel better. But
unfortunately the roots to feel better ended up maybe harming
the relationship that you were trying to st Also, just
the idea of checking, right, Like a lot of OCD
(07:04):
can be around checking if that something is okay. So
the checking of like, you know, do you like me?
Do you like me enough? Where is this going? You know?
I was very insistent on feeling like it was heading
every relationship was heading towards commitment, and then every relationship
was heading towards marriage and unfortunately, like that's not like
(07:25):
super fun or viable in your mid twenties with a
lot of people, and you know, looking back at the time,
I was like, well, that's just what I wanted for myself.
And now I realized like it was me trying to
find a sense of safety. I felt that if I
could get to that level of commitment, then I could
finally relax, I could finally feel in control of my life.
(07:49):
And it was only once I had my broken engagement
and my fiance left that I was like, oh, these
goalposts don't actually provide safety. Like you can be engaged,
they can leave abruptly in the middle of the week.
You can be married and you end up divorce. Like
the illusion of safety doesn't actually exist or protect you.
(08:10):
And so I've had to really reshape my relationship towards
uncertainty in all areas of my life and my tolerance
for discomfort to be able to still strive to have
the relationships that I want to have while accepting the
risk that's inherent in having them.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Sounds like you've had to work through a lot in
get in getting here, as well as learning about it
through an educational lens, which is I'm very fascinated by this.
We'll come back to that, because one of the things
when you talk about relationships and when you talk about
mental health lately, that's a whole TikTok trip, right, Everybody
trying to find these little like diagnosis and telling you
(08:49):
what's wrong with you and telling you have this and
these are the signs in your relationships. But with that,
we know people get it wrong. So what are some
of the things that you think a lot of people
get wrong when they think about this or have this
conversation or try to do this as a trend.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
I have a very mixed relationship towards diagnosing and pathologizing
because for me, having had an OCD diagnos since since
I was four years old was actually so helpful and
so affirmative in my life that the way that I
(09:24):
was behaving was because of a disorder in my brain.
Like I take a very externalizing approach to my OCD.
I view it as an illness. I view it as
something that is on top of my true self. And
by being able to do that and being able to
label certain thoughts as OCD thoughts, it allows me to
stay true to who I am and to not give
(09:46):
it as much.
Speaker 5 (09:47):
Power over me.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
So I'm very pro diagnosis when it is helpful and.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
True, right.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
I think that sometimes there can be an overpathologizing that
is happening that actually leads to a lack of flexibility
that is necessary for us to like adapt to what
is actually happening in our different context. It's like, and
it can also lead to sort of like limited information
(10:17):
around something if you're getting it from just like a
really quick and easy source.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Like so, for.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Example, there's like a lot around attachment style. That's that's
very you know, zeitgeisty and attachment is a really important
thing to understand and it's helpful to know about. But
I think something people don't understand is that your attachment
style can change, right like and and honestly the goal
is for it to change and to become secure. And
(10:44):
also your attachment style can show up differently in different relationships.
So it's I think that some people have taken it
on as an identity and I find I find that
that could potentially be harmful because it it it makes
it seem like growth is impossible and that change in
relationship isn't possible. And it also it becomes this shorthand
(11:07):
that sort of oversimplifies the complexity that is each of
our own individual experiences.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Absolutely, and that that's one of the things I love
about your writing is that you are you delve into
those complexities and those nuances and how it can because
I feel like a lot of times, you know, when
you're in a relationship or when you break up, you
want to be like that person was wrong. It definitely
wasn't me that kind of that kind of talk, but
(11:38):
you were, you were very like, well, here's what was
going on here, and hear what was going on here,
like looking into all of all of what was happening
and the mistakes people made. But something else you talked
about that really resonated with me. Is that you for
a while held onto this belief that you would find
your one true love and they would fix you, that
(12:02):
would be that that's just what you needed, and it
was like part of your driving factor of why you
wanted to find this life partner and why it was
so stressful and when it came to dating. So can
you talk about why that was and what it meant
(12:23):
for you when you realized that it wasn't true.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
I think a lot of it had to do with,
you know, growing up mentally ill and not having good
social skills and really struggling in my friendships and in dating,
and feeling like an outsider that I wasn't living life
correctly and that I was just like waiting for the
next phase, like for my life to really start and
(12:49):
begin and to feel comfortable in my own skin. And
I really felt that by being chosen, by having this
like life partner and buddy, that I could like relax,
you know, that I could sink into that. My parents
had a really beautiful marriage until my mother unfortunately passed
away this last September, and they were such a rock
(13:13):
for me that I was like, well, if I can
just get what they have, then I'll finally feel like
at peace with myself and I'll be able to engage
in life and enjoy my experiences more. And you know
what shifted for me wasn't that I stopped wanting a partner, right, Like,
that's like a that would be like a fun neat
(13:34):
story of like, and then I learned I just needed
to be by myself. Like that's actually not my journey
and a narrative that I kind of actively push against
because what I've come to understand is having a life
partner or having periods of your life with the partner.
You know, not all partnerships last till death, but it's
(13:55):
a lifestyle choice. It's just a way that you build
your day to day life that is different than people
that don't want that choice, right, Like, I'm someone that
just genuinely thrives and enjoys partnership. I really love living
with my husband. I love having a husband. I love
(14:18):
the friendship that our marriage brings with it. I love
that like there's another person to walk the dog, that
there's someone that makes me dinner and that I show
up for and he shows up for me, and we
are checking in on each other, and there is like
this interdependence that I really find a lot of strength
and freedom in, Like I always say, like, it would
(14:39):
have been much harder for me to complete my grad
school program if I didn't have my husband there like
helping me. And now he's in grad school full time
and I'm supporting him while he does that, and that's like,
that's like sort of what like the strength of partnership.
But what I had to adjust to was this idea
(15:01):
that without that piece, I was worthless, right, because that's
a step that's unnecessary. It's unnecessary to say that without
someone picking me, I my life has no value or
something is wrong with me. Instead, it was coming to
terms with the fact that like I had to really
like myself. I had to become someone that I really liked,
(15:22):
and then through that I could attract someone that felt
the same way, rather than attracting someone that maybe like
was like half in not in or feeling like I
had to change for them. And it also created this
different dynamic where when I was dating, it was like
take me, like not take me or leave me, because
I you know, I don't like love the If you
(15:44):
can't have me at my worst, you know you don't
deserve me.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
At my best.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Like we we're responsible for our our actions and we
shouldn't treat our partners badly. But you know, like a
level of like someone's rejection did not sway me the
way that it would have because I was more secure
in who I was. So it became safer to engage
with dating because rejection, while painful, wasn't mentally dangerous. It
(16:11):
wasn't destabilizing in the same way. It was more like, Okay,
onto the next because like, I know what I want
and who I am, and I like that, and so
that was the shift more so than rejecting my desire
for partnership.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I'm
not gonna lie. I'm sitting here. I'm like analyzing the
characters of Sex and the City as I know. That's
a weird moment. I'm like, Charlotte really needed to hear this.
Speaker 5 (16:39):
I absolutely love that that's where you were going.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
I don't know why that just popped in my head,
but I was like, yeah, instead of myself probably absolute
need this advice. I'm just like Charlotte, I'm definitely hard.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
She's someone that thrives in partnership, right, but she had
to figure out how to how to approach it in
a in a healthier way.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
See, maybe we need to you back on to watch.
We do a series where we watch and then analyze
what's happening and how well it stood up at the
test of time. Maybe we need you to come and
be a part of that episode.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
I would be honored.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I love that show for better worse.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
I could watch it all day long, every day.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
All with all the bad, there's some real good stuff
in it, and the rewatch has been amazing. But yeah,
I think we're gonna have to put that as a
side note. Alan Text in the City Obviously, Again, all
(17:39):
this is such great advice, and you're writing it out
to give this people advice. You're also doing the relationship coaching,
which I know you said you've done a few appointments
today just today alone, which is awesome. So in your
work you've spoken about disparities you've seen around mental health
and the marginalized folks and the communities. Can you speak
about that, because that's seems like such a big important
(18:01):
conversation we don't have enough of when it comes to relationships.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
So, I mean, look, the history of psychology is not
a pretty one. It's like been very much built around
like white males, like white straight males, and so I
understand why there's definitely reluctance in certain communities to really
engage with mental health treatment and mental health professionals because
(18:27):
there's an inherent distrust that I think deserves to be there.
And I find that to be just kind of heartbreaking
for those communities because you know, for every bad clinician,
there's a good clinician, and so it but the issue
is how do you rebuild the trust in different communities
(18:49):
that either are have had negative experiences or have been
taught that that's not something that they should seek out
because there's still a.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Lot of stigma around it. And so what I'm really.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Hoping is is just that the access you know, that's
one of the positives of this social media at all,
is like having access to more voices in the in
the mental health field, hearing from other people who have
had better experiences. And something I think that's really important
to do is to make it known what bad therapy
(19:27):
looks like, because if you don't know what bad therapy
looks like, you might be having a bad experience and thinking, well,
that's me or you know, like I'm not fixable or
I'm just a bad client, and it's like, no, there
are just bad therapists help there and we don't ever
talk about that. And so like things to look for are,
you know, as someone who is like tries to assume
(19:53):
expertise over your own life, right, like you're the expert
in your life, and someone that is a ten to
like overpower that or in some way really use like
an even power dynamic to put you down if you're
feeling judged by a therapist, if you feel like your
therapist has absolutely no understanding of your culture. You know,
(20:15):
you see this a lot where people from certain really
community family focused cultures, the therapists will just be like, well,
just don't just don't see your parents, like just don't
go to family events anymore, if like that's stressful to you,
and it's like, excuse me, I'm from like a Latin
community and I can't possibly do that, Like what are
you talking about? You know, So finding therapists that are
(20:40):
you know, have cultural humility is really important. Finding therapists
that understand what you're actually dealing with. Not all therapists
are specialized in every.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Issue or disorder.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Right, so there's going to be therapists that are not
very familiar with OCD, or therapists that are not super
trauma informed and then are trying to CBT your way
out of trauma. That isn't going to work. And so
I think really empowering people to have a better understanding
of what to expect and to let them know that
(21:12):
these are people that they're they're flawed and that, and
that you're allowed to be picky around who you who
you engage with, and and you know, having started this
coaching business, I definitely had some reservations around being a
(21:33):
relationship coach, especially having gotten a master's in psychology and
being in school with people that were going the licensing route,
and you know, part of me was like, is this unethical?
Like am I just sort of like cheating the system
by you know, being a.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Coach where I don't have a I don't have a license.
There is not a.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Licensing board that is supervising, you know that, Like someone
can't just like go and complain to me about me
to a licensing board. But what's been really interesting in
doing the work is I think that coaching allows for
some freedom and directiveness that traditional therapy doesn't. And so
(22:22):
I think that there really is space for both of
these things, and it's about what you want and what
you're looking for. So one of the reasons I didn't
become a licensed therapist is because I'm a public figure.
I mean, you probably haven't heard of me, but if
you look me up on the internet, there's like, you know,
hundreds of hours of me talking.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
You can read my books like you can.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
You know so much about me if you wanted to
engage with that, And I felt like that wasn't going
to be safe for certain clients under the traditional therapy model.
I felt like that if you're going to a therapist,
you really want them to be maybe not a blank slate,
but to not know the intimate personal details of their life.
(23:08):
That's just not what the what the field is set
up around. And so I felt like I couldn't really
work within the confines of therapy.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
But I also felt like I.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Really did want to do this work with people and coaching,
I think the buy in is so different. The buy
in is that they do know who I am, and
that they do know the things that I have gone through,
and so like maybe whereas like if you went to
your therapist and you were like, I just saw video
that you had a broken engagement, Like why would I
trust you? My clients come to me and they're like,
(23:41):
I saw you survived a broken engagement.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
That's why I trust you.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
And so I think it's kind of exciting that there
are these two kind of different options. And coaching also
really allows me to be much more directive, Like I
can give my opinion in a way that like therapists
really are not supposed to. I do it with you know,
in communication with my client, I'm always like, you can
push back, you don't have to agree with me. How
(24:07):
is this feeling? But they're they're they're coming to me
because they want a more directive approach, And I think
that that can really be an avenue for people who,
you know, have felt maybe that therapy was just them
talking and they weren't really getting the advice or tools
or strategies that they're looking for. And and so I
(24:28):
think it's I think it's exciting that that there's both.
But you know, I also have a huge obligation to
be as ethical as possible, to let people know my limitations,
to make it very clear I'm not licensed, but I
think I think whereas when I started this it was
more like, oh, no, is it bad, I'm not a therapist.
Now I'm like, oh, I love that I'm not a therapist.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Right, No, I think that that makes perfect sense because
a lot of people who come into like coaching routes,
like life coaching all that, oftentimes do it because they're
they're good at giving advice and people like their advice.
But the fact that you actually went ahead and did
your education and did a background that says a lot
to how grounded you are in that work. So absolutely
kudos with all of that. And I do have a
(25:13):
couple of questions. My background is in social work, and
honestly I did not go into licensing or any of
that as well. I did not do the micro practices
in general, however, cause I do have two parts, so
one I'll split it up. So here's the first part.
What's the advice you have when it comes to talking
about your mental health with a partner.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
This is really tricky, right, because sometimes when you're just
starting to date and you've had a pretty significant mental
health history, there's a desire to sort of share compulsively
where it's like, let me just put it all out
there so that you can either say yes or.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
No to my entire life.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
And what I really advise people to do instead is
to share with purpose and to being control of the
sharing and what they're sharing and why they're sharing it. So,
for example, you know, if you are just still casually
getting to know someone, it might be okay to be like, yeah,
I have anxiety, I take you know, I take zol
(26:15):
Oft and I found it really helpful, and then you
like continue bowling. But if you are getting you know,
deeper and more close with someone, then it can make
sense to go more into like all the history and
the things that have happened. But also I think it's
it can be really important to lead with who you
(26:36):
are now right because sometimes there are elements of our
mental health story that can be rather shocking and upsetting
but is not necessarily a representative of who we are
in this moment, and so I think it can be
important to say, like, you know, right now, like I'm
(26:57):
in therapy, I'm doing really well, this is something that
I'm on top of. Yes, in the past, like I
did really struggle with suicidal ideation, and maybe you know,
maybe you even had an attempt, but that's different than
being actively suicidal in this moment, and like being able
to say, like, and here are the steps that I
took to protect myself from you know, falling back into
(27:21):
that into that place. And so I think that really
presenting your mental health history as something that is your
responsibility is also a way to keep the person from
feeling like they are now taking on that by being
with you. It's really saying like, this is a thing
(27:41):
that I've been dealing with and that I'm I'm on
top of, and so I'm telling you because I want
you to get to know me more, not because this
is your problem to deal with or to fix. And
if you're someone where it's like you're in a place
where you don't really have a handle on those things,
then that might just be as that might just be
an indicator that that looking for a relationship right now
(28:04):
might not be the might not be the best thing
for you.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That's one of those moments where like when you're coming
out with all the trauma all at once, with all
the peoples, you might want to think about handling that
trauma just for a minute.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
But the way with the way we share signals how
the other person receives it. Right, So if I share
with shame, if I share with agitation, if I share
with the expectation that you're going to be shocked or
uncomfortable or like really uninterested afterwards, then that person's going
(28:38):
to kind of take take those that agitation and feelings on.
But if you share from a place of ownership, if
you share from a place of I have I have
an understanding of this, I have a conceptualization of what
has happened, and I'm just giving you information so that
you can get to know me. The way they're going
to receive that information is likely different, all right.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
So this is the second part, because as a person
who's been in the field for a while, how do you,
as the person who has seen these things, has worked
with people, separate analyzing everybody to death from your relationships?
Do you know what I mean? When I come into
like new relationship, my immediate with like, let me diagnose
them with the following things. These are things that I
(29:20):
see of you, like, how do you do how do
you stop that?
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (29:27):
That's so interesting. I guess I don't have too too
much of that instinct.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
I will say a disproportionate amount of people in my
life probably have OCD, and I have wondered if that
is just like like attracting like or like what that's about,
do you know? And so that that that can sometimes
be Probably maybe the thing that that that pops up
the most for me is like if I'll see certain
(29:54):
you know, and I think I'll see certain OCD tendencies,
or they'll they'll like end up sharing that with me
to sort of gauge my reaction on it. But I
think for the most part, I've I've gotten to a
place of I'm not so interested and necessarily like diagnosing someone.
I'm interested in understanding them. And so like if I
(30:16):
if I learn something about their family, It'll be like,
oh and that makes sense blank. Like if I learned
something about their job or their or how they view
the world, then I'll be like okay, Like it's sort
of like I'm putting these puzzle pieces together rather than
like hunting for like a label or something like that.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, I've been I've been accused of bane little too
too intense with my.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Question perhaps how you've got on this show.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Because you're at a cheese Nike together and all of
a sudden I'm spilling my heart out, Tom.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And then my next conversation is we need therapy. We
should do this all the mic.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Anyway here, Definitely, this is something.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
This is actually a conversation. We have a lot Smith
and I on this show. You are very open about
a lot of things that have happened in your life,
and we often we talk about where are our boundaries
and what is helpful and what is not helpful for us,
(31:35):
And that conversation can look different for everybody. But but
for you, do you have you found kind of your
like a balance in what you'll share and what you won't.
Is it something you find really liberating or is it
something you find frightening or all of the above.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
My rule is really about what is mine and what
is someone else's. So I'd say that the biggest boundaries
I have are with things that involve other people. So
I have to be really mindful about when I'm talking
about something regarding my husband or my.
Speaker 5 (32:09):
Family or other beings.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
So that's where like there's stuff where like you got like,
my audience just has no idea about certain areas of
my life. And it's not because I want to keep
it from them. It's because I have to honor the
privacy of people in my life and who I care about.
And then I'd say, the only other really big boundary
I have is around, like my sex life is something
(32:35):
I really don't like talking about. I had to write
about it and Overthinking about You because I was like,
this would just not be fair not to And so
at the time I just told my mom and dad,
I was like, just don't read chapter six. And you know, honestly, like,
now that my mom is dead and my dad doesn't
really listen to my stuff, I'm like, who knows what's coming?
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Now?
Speaker 5 (33:02):
That's been. That's been probably.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
Like the biggest boundary that is that is mine that
I've sort of created because of my comfort level. But
if you read again, if you read chapter six of Overthinking.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
About You, you will sort of learn quite quite a bit.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
H you got that far, I can tell you were
you were very uncomfortable, but you you're fighting through it.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Very Yeah, it was great.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
It was very because you were so open about it
and you were like, I am uncomfortable. I'm going to
tell you, but we're going to get through this.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
And then I had to read the audio book.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I was like Oh my.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
God, why did I put this print?
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yes, yeah, we just had not like a couple of
years ago. We just had that experience of like, if
we had known this was the audio, we would have
not been in this way.
Speaker 5 (33:57):
You have the audio engineer.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
He was like you real quick.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Something else that you have written a lot about are
modern relationships and marriage, which makes sense. What are some
of the ways that you think modern relationships are different
just inherently kind of things are changing.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
They're not societally required in the same way, which is
so exciting, right.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
I mean, boomers have like the highest divorce rate, and
I think it's because they had to get married, and
they had to do it young, and they had to
do it without you know, as much discernment as maybe
they wanted to have, because it was a certain time,
a certain place. Here's who I'm dating, let's get to go.
And I think, you know, as someone who is actually
(34:52):
really pro marriage, I think one of the best things
about modern marriage is less people are getting married. And
that's good good because marriage isn't for everyone, and it
doesn't make sense for everyone, and it is a very
specific choice that has to align with your values and
what you want for yourself. And I also think, you know,
(35:12):
as I explored a lot and I do. I think
the idea that now we get to create what marriage
is for us as a partnership between two individuals, rather
than trying to fit ourselves into the institution of marriage
and whatever that is like preconceived to be. Like my
marriage can look totally different than your marriage, and like
(35:35):
how wonderful is that?
Speaker 5 (35:38):
So rather than like a.
Speaker 4 (35:39):
Complete rejection of the institution, I really encourage people to
have a reimagining of it and also decide if it's
something that even makes sense for them.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
I love that I say this as a person also
in a very weird place of like, nah, I'm good,
no marriage from me. I've seen that. I'm good. We're
fine with the partnership here, but with marriages and a
lot of experiences, we're gonna let's let's talk about your
newest release. Uh, how was this experience of writing a
(36:09):
fictional rom com like rom com book that obviously you
said you were a fan of, especially because you involved
your own life like you did some real personal like
perspective into a rom com. Tell us about this experience.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
So Save the Date was based on a joke my
father made and he's so proud of himself, which was
basically in twenty twenty, my fiance just like abruptly left
me with like little to no explanation, and it was
like peak pandemic. Like I had to fly home to
New York to grieve, but like I had to like
(36:45):
be in a mask and separated from my family for
the first week, and like the first few days afterwards,
like when I was still in LA Like my friends
came to visit me, but like they couldn't hug me,
you know.
Speaker 5 (36:55):
So I'm just like sobbing.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
In a parking lot and they're just like reaching towards me.
But like it was just as dramatic as as it
could possibly be.
Speaker 5 (37:03):
And so I get home and I'm like recovering.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
I'm recuperating, and my dad is like, well, you know,
we still have a wedding planner, Like why don't you
just try to find a groom in time for your
original wedding?
Speaker 5 (37:13):
And I was like, Dad, that is bonkers.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
What a wonderful idea for a fictional story. So you know,
it wasn't something I dived into right away, like I,
you know, obviously needed space to heal. I needed space
to fall in love again and sort of like emerge
from that chapter in my life in order to kind
(37:39):
of go back.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
And fictionalize it.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
But it was really fun to sort of like I
kind of describe it as sort of like a multiverse
version of my broken engagement, like if I had taken
a different route, because so much of what happened during
that time was that I had been writing over Thinking
About You during period of my life, and so I
actively had to sit down and delete my fiance from
(38:07):
my book, like I had to like go through and
like edit him out and it, and like the entire
final chapter of Overthinking About You was a chapter about
my relationship with him and how we were building.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
This beautiful life for ourselves. I to just I have
to just cut the whole thing out, and I had to.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
I had to come up with a new like a
new ending. And the ending went from you know, how.
Speaker 5 (38:34):
Do you know, how do you build a life together?
To like how do you not give up?
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Like how do you keep going even after your very
worst fear came true? Which to me was like just
like being rejected by this person I'd finally felt that
level of safety with And how do I not have
this massive backslide in my sense of self and my
mental health and all of these things. I ended up
(39:00):
like applying all of the lessons I'd learned in my
research to myself. And so then I really wanted the
novel to to incorporate that story as well, to not
just be like, you know, it's Zany obviously, like she's
obviously behaving badly in a lot of ways by kind
(39:20):
of keeping to this plan, but but you know, to
to have it be more than just saving her personal face,
but her sort of trying, you know. In the book,
Emma is a is a couple therapists sort of turned YouTuber,
So she she has this like online following and there's
this like public element to what she's doing, and so
(39:40):
for her it really becomes more about sort of like
making this point about love and about and about commitment
and compatibility and how you know, I think in the
Western culture, we have this idea that things have to
follow this very specific timeline and path before it's acceptable
to get married. Where you know, another cultures, it's like
(40:01):
you don't have that same expectation of having known each
other for as long. And so she was sort of
pushing back against some of these cultural norms and ideas,
and it allowed me to sort of explore that stuff
within this really fun structure and genre of a of
a traditional rom com. So it really got to scratch
both my itch as like a as a as a
fiction writer, a screenwriter, and then also as as you know,
(40:24):
a mental health advocate and relationship expert.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yes, I love that. Well, you've mentioned you you're a
big fan of a genre rom comms.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
We over here love tropes.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Why do you think some of these romance these rom
com tropes, why are they so enduring? And what do
you think are some of the most harmful ones?
Speaker 5 (40:56):
Ooh interesting.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
I think every story has been told before, like you know,
I think that there's this idea that like you know,
that's similar to that?
Speaker 5 (41:07):
How dare you?
Speaker 4 (41:08):
And it's like everything is similar to everything. The difference
is the details and there can and there's a reason
that certain tropes and stories and plot points work because
they're satisfying to us, like that it is satisfying for
there to for the end of Act two to be,
you know, the dark day of the soul and like
the dark night of the soul, and then for like
(41:29):
things to turn around and act three. Like that's like
we like knowing where the story is going.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Obviously some things are more avant garde or break the rules,
and that's cool too, but they're like knowing like enemies
to lovers, like where I'm here.
Speaker 5 (41:43):
For, I know I'm going to get a happy ending.
Speaker 4 (41:45):
And I think that that's the best trope of a
romance book is it is not a romance book. If
these people do not end up together, it is something else.
It can be something great, but it's not a romance.
And so as someone who is like very old over
all of the devastation and sadness that is the world
and wants to go to narrative to escape that, to
(42:08):
not just be hit over the head with like sadness
and desperation all the time, I think like knowing that,
like that's what you're getting in for with the romance
book is so great. I think maybe you know, harmful
tropes are like I think you know where like the
relationship dynamic is not actually healthy, right, So like any
(42:31):
sort of thing where someone is a captive or you know,
take an advantage of or you know, anything that glorifies
abuse in any way don't love that, you know. But
I think for the majority of what's going on in
this genre, it's more it's more just like wish fulfillment
really letting you explore really complex elements of human life
(42:57):
without it feeling like you're logging through something that is
just like purely dramatic or traumatic or sad. I mean,
that's kind of where I really am excited to be
in this genre is because I can like explore mental
health in this way. I don't have to like get
someone to buy into a book about about being unlovable
(43:18):
and anxiety. I get someone to buy into the idea
of like a fun rom com where a girl tries
to find a groom in time for original wedding date.
That I get to add that stuff, you know. And
my next one is all about OCD and grief and
like these you know, these subjects that are not inherently
what you would think about with the romance, but like
(43:39):
is what you're allowed to explore in that genre so
long as you're hitting the satisfying beats of two people
falling in love.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yes, that's so fantastic. Well, speaking of you've also written
a lot about breakups. Obviously, that's a big part of dating,
and as you mentioned this book, you do you bring
in elements of that, and you've written about how you know,
(44:09):
after that happened, you were worried people would be like, oh,
why should I go to her? Like you were saying
about the therapy or all of that. But you've also
written about the kind of the intersection of mental health
and the breakup. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 4 (44:28):
So I think breakups are really devastating, even if you're
at your most mentally stable, but you know, if you
are someone that has real ups and downs in their
mental health, it can be very pretty destabilizing. And so
I think that it's important to honor and understand how
(44:48):
deeply painful a breakup is and to put in some
added support to yourself to get yourself through that situation.
And I also think it's important to not engage certain
harmful thought patterns around it. So one of the most
harmful thought patterns I find is the what if thoughts
of like what if I had done this differently, what
(45:11):
if we had.
Speaker 5 (45:11):
Met earlier, what if? What if? What if?
Speaker 4 (45:14):
And it's trying to solve a problem that that already happened,
right it's like and it's trying to solve something that
you would never know the answer to, Like I will
never know if my fiance would have stayed if there
hadn't been a pandemic, Like I suspect probably, but I
don't know, And so my hunt to know is is
(45:38):
a useless quest that can really stir up rumination and
can really get us trapped in the past and make
it hard for us to move forward. So I really
like instead to encourage people to take a radical acceptance
point of view when it comes to a breakup, where
it is like, obviously, this is not what I wanted
(45:58):
to happen, but this is what happened, and since it
is what happened, what do.
Speaker 5 (46:02):
I do now?
Speaker 4 (46:04):
Rather than focusing on the past or feeling like it
means some great thing about your future, right, we tend
to catastrophize this person left, that means everyone will leave me.
I'm heartbroken now, I will be heartbroken forever. Like really
trying to look at what is true, what is logical,
and where can we go from here rather than overly
(46:26):
predicting the future or staying in the past.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Yes, and Samantha and I love a good activity or
a good thought experiment, and you have a lot of
those in your books about reframing those sort of thoughts
and identifying the helpful ones and not helpful ones. I
wanted to ask you this and it could be your
answer to just no.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
But I as a podcast that is in the intersectional
feminist space, sometimes it gives me pause that that relationship
podcasts are often gendered as feminine for women.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
Has that been your experience, Like we know rom coms are,
but like relationship podcasts are. So I was just curious
to getting thoughts about that or maybe you haven't seen that.
Speaker 4 (47:18):
It's just me, you know, I think that they're you know,
writing especially my most recent nonfiction about I Do I
think about modern marriage. The book is very non gendered
and it is very inclusive at least really that was
a priority for me. But it was also important to
(47:39):
acknowledge that historically women have been more victims of harmful marriages,
that the patriarchal nature of marriage has often harmed women
to a high degree, And so it feels impossible to
also completely approach relationships as existing outside of the gender binary.
(48:05):
Because I think that the reality is the way that
our lives and society have been structured, is that women
often do bear the brunt of some unfairness and inequality,
and so I understand perhaps why women are drawn to
these conversations because it is hard to know how to
(48:28):
build an equitable relationship and how to build a safer relationship.
And so my goal is that, like we as we
build more and more of those and as people have
better models of relationships, that it won't be seen as
something that is such a gender topic. But I think
that there's still a lot of work to be done there.
(48:48):
But I love when I hear I gave my partner
your book, or my partner introduced me to this, and
you know, I think that you know, women and and
queer people just tend to be more cued into this stuff,
which is part of the bigger problem, right, But like
what an honor to get to to have such such
(49:11):
a such a wonderful audience.
Speaker 5 (49:13):
And you know.
Speaker 4 (49:15):
The goal is is for this just to spread even more,
especially as we're dealing with such a such an issue
with masculinity in this culture.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting conversation in general, because
when you think about what's happening when you hear complaints
in a marriage. Oftentimes women see it first and try
to fix it on their own and by the time
the husbands and this is obviously very heteronormative, but like
by the time the husbands are like being told there's
a problem that is towards the end of like this
(49:47):
is unfixable, oftentimes.
Speaker 5 (49:49):
Not well, maybe by the time they listen.
Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yes, and that's like all of those things are such.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
I think often they're told and they're not taking it
seriously correct.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I think what of that due is that that level
of like when it comes to keeping a family, they
really put it on women's shoulders to being like you're
you're the reason to either stays together or falls apart,
which is such a that's a whole different topic.
Speaker 5 (50:13):
So we'll have to have you on episodes.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
I'll have to have you back on that for that.
But with all of that, I know you've talked to
a lot of people, and obviously a lot of people
talk to you about relationships and all the ways they
can look, especially as like we're talking about modern relationships
and how it's changing. Is there something you have heard
or learned from someone else that has changed your perspective
(50:37):
and has stuck with you.
Speaker 4 (50:40):
This was years ago, but I worked with this woman
who's absolutely amazing, and she was going through a divorce
at the time, and she was she like, I wasn't
quite ready to hear it when she said it, but
she was like, he was such a you know, the
divorce was very painful. There was cheating, it was it
was like not good. But she was like, he was
a great person to raise my kids with. And I
think that that really changed my opinion about, like slowly
(51:03):
about about marriage and relationships that like, they don't have
to last forever for them to have still been the
right decision at the time, and that just because something
ultimately ends or shifts dramatically, like your marriage could have
been absolutely wonderful and important and absolutely the right person
for you for the amount of time that they were
(51:24):
the right person for you, rather than it being completely
negated just because it ended.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yeah, and you're and your your books, you interview professionals
and some of the some of the things I was reading,
I was like, oh, I'm gonna have to think about that.
I've never thought about it in that way before, which
is great. And that brings me to what I was
talking about. For introspection. You're really you talk a lot
about you know, think about, think about these things, ask
(51:53):
these questions of yourself. Am I Am I in the
good place to break up just asking those questions? Why
do you think that it's so important?
Speaker 4 (52:03):
I think that we often take our cues from societal
norms or what has worked for people around us, when
really we have to be cued into what works for
us in our present context. So if we don't really
know what's going on with us, or what our capacities
are or our feelings are in that moment, then we
(52:24):
can sort of make decisions that are under the wrong
influence rather than being more aligned with our current self
and our overall values.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
Yes, well, clearly you're just going to have to come
back because we have so many questions, so many other
topic ideas. But for now, where can the good listeners
find you? What projects do you have that you want
to shout out all of that?
Speaker 5 (52:56):
Well, I would love for people to order my books
Save the Date.
Speaker 4 (53:00):
It's definitely a romcom heavy on the com if that's
your kind of thing, hopefully, And then you can also
check out my substack Emotional Support Lady, where I have
a weekly post every Tuesday. That's just anything and everything
mental health related. So it's like a really lovely community
over there. I have a weekly podcast called Just between Us,
(53:23):
and if you're interested in my work as a relationship coach,
you can visit alisanaskin dot com and all the other
stuff there too.
Speaker 3 (53:29):
Awesome. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you so much
for joining us.
Speaker 5 (53:33):
Oh this was wonderful.
Speaker 3 (53:34):
Thank you, And you can also contact us if you
would like. You can email us at Hello at Stuffmannever
Told You dot com. You can find us on blue
Sky at momstaff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at
Stuffman Ever Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have
a tea public store, and we have a book you
(53:55):
can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always too,
our super producer Christina are executed for and our Contrbutter Joey.
Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff One
Never Told You's ppdiction of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
from my Heart Radio, you can check out your iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts or reb you listen to your favorite shows.
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