Spoiled Saturdays: Sinners

The 2025 film Sinners is an award-winning film and is making history. We invite you to join us in talking about music, vampires, race and so much more. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Smitha and welcome Stephan. I
ever told you a prediction of iHeart Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
And we're a little bit late with this specific episode edition,
but we wanted to do the award winning movie Sinners,
and because it was just released last year, you know,
it has to be a Saturday spoiler, so a lot
of feminist movie necessarily, it is a feminist movie in retrospective,
like we're doing this as a movie, but it's a

(00:39):
spoiler Saturday. So obviously, lots of spoilers ahead, lots of spoilers.
And if you've been fortunate enough to not have been
spoiled already or know anything about it, that's the best
way to go into a movie, So you should stop
and watch first and then come back. Yeah, spoiler alert.

(00:59):
I will say I knew nothing about this movie until
I watched it. So when I realized it had vampires
in it, I was like, wait, what did you know
much before you started watching it?

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:13):
I did you do get some on it?

Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
I find I'm really having a hard time avoiding spoilers
these days, and I'm not entirely sure.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
I think it's my.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Algorithm, but yes, I did know that there were v
Empires involved. I knew that music was a key element,
and I knew that it had a kind of gothic.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Vibe, Southern Gothic, and I've talked about how much I
love Southern Gothic, and this is absolutely the epitome of
Southern Gothic horror. So hello, Also, content warning, we do
talk about death, racism, a lot of hate speech. I
don't think we'd say any of those things, but you
know it's obviously in there. This is going to be
taking place in the nineteenth two, I believe, so lots

(02:03):
of racism in that point in time. We are not
going to talk a lot about the controversies that are
occurring at this point. It is February twenty sixth and
twenty twenty six if you're wondering asp recording this, so
but when instead, we're going to talk about what we
thought was really significant about this movie and some of
the things that I was very fascinated by in this

(02:25):
movie as well, So go ahead and put that there.
And yeah, this episode is going to be a bit
different because this movie is so layered. So not only
do we have want to talk about the movie plot
and ending, but the history of the many first of
the movie was able to have, and then some of
the themes around it as well. So let's get we
are currently in awards season as a part of the Writers' Union,

(02:47):
we get a lot of emails and sweet this is
one of those. This was one of those movies.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
My mom is so impressed by that, even though it's like, honestly,
it's great, but it's not that impressive, but thinks it's
the coolest thing.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Well, again, I've been able to attend a screening with
a Q and A with one of the stars for
one of the movies because of that opportunity, so, you know,
not this movie specifically, but Leanna Taylor was a blast
to see, and that means the movie world is buzzing
with a lot of whispers and controversies, especially around Sinners.
Unfortunately it is in the middle of again, in that

(03:27):
middle of the whispers and conversations. I know things have
arisen with the Baptist, which should have been in time
for celebration, but things kind of overshadowed it. But it
doesn't negate the fact that they are winning and getting
the accolades they truly deserve. We know when it was
first released and talks of awards were coming around, there
was a lot of like dispute about whether it's worth

(03:50):
as much as these other movies. And we've had a
lot of people coming out with support for Ryan Coogler
and this movie in general and why it does deserve
to be at the top of the list for the
movie's released of twenty twenty five. And I agree with
that statement. This is a phenomenal movie. It was unique,
it was a different take. I loved it. Currently, the

(04:10):
film has four hundred and twenty four nominations including Best Picture,
Best Director, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actor and Actress, Best Score,
and Song, Production Screenplay. And this is with the Academy Awards,
they I'll get have so much more. It currently has
two hundred wins, including the recent BAFTET for Best Supporting
Actress and Best Original Screenplay, Critics Choice Award for Best

(04:33):
Young Performer and also Original Screenplay. I think how four
undred twenty four is a lot and some of the
first we want to celebrate include the fact that they're
the first film in history to earn sixteen OSCAR nominations,
like Blew Out the Water including One Battle after Another,
which has thirteen nominations so, and this is first also

(04:55):
for a woman of color to be nominated for Best Cinematography,
and that is Autumn Chyenne World Chapel, which is phenomenal
in itself. Did you have more information on that? You
and I talked about this filament because she was such
a big part of this movie and she had just
made history with that nomination.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, So when we were talking about what movie we
wanted to do for this month, I really wanted to
talk about this one because because of that historic nomination,
but because I believe this is also historic in terms
of how many women have been nominated in technical fields

(05:38):
that is not unfortunately that's kind of rarer, but that
I don't think she's the only one. I believe there's
some some other women in the field, which is great,
Like that is an amazing thing, as sad as it
is at all, right long, but it just felt so important.

(06:02):
And when you get a movie that gets this many accolades,
that gets this much attention, you have to think about
the cinematography of the person who put it together and
why it worked so well. And yes, it was a woman,

(06:23):
it was a woman of color like that. I just
think that's so important and we should look to that
and think about why that is.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
She did a phenomenal job. Some of the says again
are just breathtaking, yes, and so memorable, so memorable. And
there are so many articles out there talking about her
process with Coogler and how they had to stage everything,
and how they had to pre plan everything, how long
it took to get it done, the procedures, and the

(06:57):
actors talking about like coming back to see it and
being like, oh, oh my god, that is amazing, Like
that level of professionalism, that level of imagination in itself
to come to the screen is beautiful. And they also
had a verse for Ryan Kugler's ownership deal he made
with Warner Brothers, and it was it made huge news,
like people were like, oh damn, that's gonna be huge

(07:21):
for the industry and the future of how negotiations go
because it has given Coogler the rights to the movie
after twenty five years. Again, it is not done with
the directors in general to have ownership of their work,
and this allows for him to receive royalties and all
of the money after the fact, which typically go to

(07:42):
the production studio. And that is an important conversation we
need to be having about who is getting the money
when it continues to blow up, when you have the
anniversaries and when you have the conversation because we've definitely
watched a lot of classics and know they put a
lot of time and celebrating these films. Lord of the
Rings could be a big example, and re releasing and
reshowing and who is making that money Yep, not the directors. Yeah,

(08:06):
So we love to see it like people were gaged
essentially trying to coldn't imagine that he actually asked for that,
and not only asked for that, but he got that.
And it's really important to see that the right people
get the ownership and get the accolades that they deserve
and the credit and this is again and get paid
so kudos. And I will say I'm interested in how

(08:30):
that will change the future of negotiations right now, and
I think a lot of people are in that same
especially as successful as it is. Love that. So with
all of that, we're going to jump into the plot
against Boilers ahead. If you haven't watched it, go watch it.
So it's nineteen thirty two set in the Jim Crow
South where we meet young Sammy played by Miles Kayton,

(08:52):
in his acting debut. He's a youngin that they saw
on social media singing and he's got an incredible boygel
and I'm playing are also known as Preacher Boy. He's
working out in the cotton fields, sending his daily Quota ray.
The start of the day, he runs home and tries
to find his beloved guitar, which is a nineteen thirty
two dobro Cyclops resonator guitar. So like that thing was pristine,

(09:16):
and I'm sure it took so long for them to
get that, And for the composer Ludwig Gornson, who is
essentially Coogler's partner in all of the movies, he was
bound and determined to find that so he could get
that haunting music that he knows is so part of
the blues, so very important. Beautiful instrument, beautiful. It was

(09:37):
a guitar that was given to him by his cousins.
Smokes that twins and after realizing that his father, the preacher,
had taken it, he goes to the church and is
trying to get it from his father, who warns him
that quote, if you keep dancing with the devil, one
day he'll be following you home. When I was like
h foreshadowing, which if you know anything about Southern Gothic,

(09:58):
you have to have all the foreshadowing, all of it.
So we now meet the Smokestack twins, Elijah Smoke and
Elias stack Moore, both played by Michael B. Jordan, who
have left Chicago to return home. They've come back with
supplies and a plan to open a new juke joint,

(10:20):
recruiting local legend Delta Slim played by Delroy Lindo, who
actually is also winning some of awards out there. They
also recruit Cornbread, a friend as the bouncer played by
Omar Binson Miller Annie who was played by award winning
one Nim Masoku who has been the part of the
Marvel world and she was part of the Lovecraft Country

(10:42):
which also has the same like Southern Gothic field that
I love and horror obviously, and she plays the estranged
wife of Smoke and Whodoo practitioner. Important. They got supplies
from the neighborhoods shopkeepers Bo and Grace Chow, who are
played by Lee June Lee and Yall, who are two
of the Chinese actors that have been a part of

(11:04):
this and have made pretty big headlines in itself. So
we learned throughout the movie that Smoke and Annie are
strange to the grief of losing their baby and Smoke's
decision to go with Stack. They live a pretty hard lifestyle, y'all.
We kind of know that they've been up to some things.
We don't know what. They've got quiet reputation. You don't
mess with these boys. You don't mess with its boys.
I believe there's a legend that we do find out

(11:26):
that may or may not have happened, because we find
out also Stack lies to tell some tall tales, but
they could have killed their father who was abusive and
was hurting them, as well as so many other things.
So and I think the legend of them are pretty true.
As he immediately shoots people that try to rob him.
He also pays for their healing for terror hospitals, so

(11:48):
you know, great. But between Annie and Smoke, they obviously
still miss each other, and she talks about continuing to
protect him while he's out in the world through heart practice,
and she's a great character. So at the same time,
we see a stranger who is obviously injured rush to
a home begging for help and refuge. From people who

(12:10):
are hunting him. It turns out that people are Kkka
members who were willing to trust this man since he
was white and had gold. After the hunters turns out
to be native indigenous peoples, the Choctaw nations specifically try
to find this person, try to warn the couple, don't
invite men. Don't invite a man, and you know, God
God protect you, may or God protect you if you do.

(12:33):
They leave, and then we see that the stranger has
turned them all into vampires because he is a vampire.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
Vampire needs to be invited in, got to.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Be invited in. So as claud Juke, which is what
Smoke and Stack have put together, comes together, we see
the party growing with good music and dancing throughout the night.
Then during this time we get to see the historical
look of music and different cultures coming together. The scene
is incredible. We're gonna talk a little bit more about
the scene later, but they do a moment of which

(13:04):
it does transcend and call out, call out to the
spirits out there, because it is it moves through the
years and times, future and past and coming together through
the music that that preacher boy Sammy is making. So
we also have Mary, which I didn't mention before, played
by Hailey Steinfeld, who is Stack's ex girlfriend who is

(13:27):
also white passing. So her grandfather was half black and
so she is able to pass off as white, and
Stack had wanted her to marry to a white man
and live comfortably, but she was in love with Stack
so many things. Her father, her mother had just died,
who had actually had helped raise Stack of smoke, and
that's why she was in the town, and you know,

(13:51):
decided she needs to go check this s place out
and see what Stack goes up to specifically, and she
stirs a lot of things up, though a lot of
people didn't recognize her. When they do, they literally like
welcome her back with open arms and let invite her
into the party. So as the party continues, Samy inadvertently
gets the attention of the vampire, whose we learned is

(14:12):
named Remick played by Jack O'Connell and his now new family,
but then quotes Burton Joan who are now vampires as
the vampires again they cannot get in without an invitation,
so after being turned away, they stay near, playing their
own music and waiting. So it is very bluegrass sounding,

(14:35):
but later on we have a wonderful Irish folk song
by Remiic and then it latches onto the entirety of
the crew. Barry decides to go and investigate whether or
not they are coming to make trouble because you know,
Stack and Smoke, or worry that maybe they're from Chicago
coming to plot revenge because some things again have them
imply that they went after some of the gangsters of Chicago,

(14:59):
and if you know that, you don't want to be
messing messing with them. So she goes and tries to
figure out what's going on, but then it turns out
she ends up being killed and turned as well, and
then chaos and sues. Yes after Mary gets an invite
back inside the club after the fact she didn't kill Stack,

(15:19):
which causes the evening to turn very quickly. After being
shot several times by Smoke, Mary runs out the club
to declaring that they would kill them all and he
quickly quickly and I love this part. I'm not gonna lie.
Assesses the situation and try tries to get Smoked to
put Stack outside of the club because she knew something
was wrong. This is not right. Uh. Later we find
that Cornbread has been turned as well, because he decided

(15:42):
to go he needed to go into the woods. And
oh and Grace has also convinced Bo to go start
the car because she knew something was wrong and he
didn't come back either, So there are things happening, and
and he declares what has to be done. She's like,
all right, this is what's happening because Cornbread has come
back and kind of revealed the fact that, yes, things
are not all right. We have Stack coming back to

(16:03):
life and very angry about it and runs out the
club as well because they figured out things are not good.
He is not okay. They are not okay with that, declares.
Annie declares that they have to get garlic and steaks
and make sure that they're not inviting anybody inside. That
these are the rules of who they are, and she'd

(16:26):
gone through different lures of what they could be, and
says that the vampires are the worst of the worst,
essentially that they are cursed to live with no sun,
not I've never seen the sun again and never being
able to reunite with those in the afterlife, and lit
that she has predicted her own death that night and
tells Smoke makes him promise that he will kill her

(16:49):
before she turns so that she can be with their baby,
and she's like, I have someone waiting for me on
the other side, and so do you. Parts And with
a controversial moment in which Grace loses all hope after
being essentially rage baited by her now dead husband slash

(17:10):
vampire husband and those around with them, threatening her their
daughter Lisa, she yells and invite in pausing all of
the vampires to storm into the club. We see a
long battle and violence, and we see that Sammy is
able to in the end escape after so much And

(17:30):
by the way, I forgot that Remiic was focused on
Sammy and even said if you send me him, well
we will let you all live. Just give me Sammy
is his music that I'm drawn to, as his father
had said, and of course Smoke was not having that.
In the end, after a long battle, Smoke was able
to save Sammy, unfortunately anyone else, and Sammy is able

(17:53):
to escape. At the same time, Spoke has destroyed the vampires,
including the later Remiic, and we also learn as a
part of the story that the person who sold the
mill to the Spokestack Brothers was the Grand Dragon of
the KKK and had intended to come back and slaughter
everyone at the club with his crew, but Smoke was

(18:16):
ready and able to take everyone out before his death,
and as it ends, we see him being able to
reunite with Annie and their baby base. We seen okay,
and then we have an after math and after the
credit scene I guess after a couple of credits scened
in which we find Sammy all grown up and successful

(18:36):
in his music career, played by legendary Bobby Guy, like
he is a legendary blues and folk singer. So they
were like, come be a part of this, and I love,
I love. They were giveable to give him his flowers,
and there we see Stack and Mary, who is not aged,
who were able to survive that night because essentially Smoke
was like, I'll let you live, just let sam leave

(18:57):
Sammy alone, let Sammy be, and they had that promise.
They celebrated together in which he talks with Sammy and
Sammy makes a statement about like that was the best
night up until everything went bad, and even though he
had nightmares about bad night, it was still the best
night of his life, and Stack agrees, saying, yes, for

(19:17):
a minute, we were free. Such a good scene and
then end scene. Y'all, y'all, just like any Southern gothic novel,

(19:37):
to me, a good one leaves you feeling perplexed, Like
there's this complex feeling of like, Okay, it's bad, but
it's not bad, Like these all these tragedies have to
happen and we grow from them, but it's still not
necessarily a satisfying ending, but a satisfying ending, you know. Yeah,

(20:01):
is that is that feeling? Is that lingering, the haunting
that reps like it's not happy but it's not completely depressing.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
Yeah, no, I agree.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
I think it's so much of this movie has that
kind of feel. It has a feel, and a big
part of that feel is you know, we made this
beautiful thing and it was the best night, uh, and

(20:36):
we were free for that night and then this is
what happened, right, but kind of remembering what it was
before that. And then I think that having that closing,
because it's it's a post credit scene, everybody, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(20:58):
you don't know exactly, is really bittersweet because it's you know,
you've aged in this in this instance, you've aged, but
you see these people who were in your life, who
have not who have become vampires and who come to

(21:20):
see you, and just having that difference of experience and.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
That memory of.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
That night where your lives just went in completely different ways. Yeah,
I just think that's a really powerful message of how
you don't know where, you don't know where your life
is going to take you, and you don't know, like

(21:52):
the people in your life, you don't know what's going
to happen to them either. And for Sammy, I mean,
because he was physically really wounded, but for him to
continue and to deal with what happened on that night

(22:16):
that was both a wonderful night and then a really
horrific night, right right.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
There's so much to that like and then that's kind
of that level of today just about like joy and
we talked we've talked about the black community really having
to search for some of the joy, especially at times
where they feel like they're most persecuted because they were
or oppressed and during this time is that time, so

(22:47):
having to measure the tragedies at the same time finding
their joys where they can. It's like that inner layer
of the constant battle that happens. And we can see
that in so much like all this darkness. There's so
much darkness right now in life and so many so
much bad news and so many bad things, but trying
to find those joyous moments too, and kind of like
admitting to those joyous moments but understanding they're still surrounded

(23:10):
by trauma. In struggle as well, I think there's so
much in that. But this movie that again leaves that
haunting so thoroughly that it's it's almost jarring to me
because when I first watched it, I was.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Like, oh oh, oh oh.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
And then I'll watched it again, I was like, oh, yeah, okay, okay.
And then one of the big things that I think
push and pull with the jarring movement is the music.
And this was a big theme of the movie, is
a big part of the movie. It's another character and
driver of the movie, and I think it's something that
we focus. I focused a lot on this because the
music in itself, like can do a whole change in

(23:53):
the mood in the context of all of that. And
I wanted to go to this NPR article where they
talk about his Blues Wrapper and all of this, and
they write the film, set in nineteen thirty two, revolves
primarily around ideas of Black spirituality and the music's placed
in Mississippi Delta community's evaluation of righteous and iniquity, their

(24:15):
references to Black Christianity and who do piety and profanity,
and music foundation as a turn toward both salvation and damnation.
The agnostic but faith appreciating narrative plays into this duality
from its opening seconds quote there are legends of people
born with the gift of making music so true it
can pierce the veil between life and death, conjuring experience

(24:38):
from the past and the future. A voice over explains
this gift can bring healing to their communities that also
attracts evil, and having Annie being the voiceover for that
was perfect because she understands, obviously on a deeper level,
what this looks like and the flashes of what we see.
And I think, and we're going to talk a little bit,

(25:00):
very briefly about the religion aspect, because it's a big
conversation and I think I am and I'm not equipped
to have this conversation because especially when you talk about
the Black community, the enslaved and the colonization with Christianity
and what we've seen in Christianity and the Christian missions
and all of these aspects, especially when it comes to

(25:23):
the damaging and the overall oppressing of other cultures through
what they would call conversion or mission. So there's just
a depth level, but the fact that they do have
this back and forth about what does this music look like.
So when we looked at Blues when it first came out,

(25:43):
it was it was kind of looked down upon because
having blues meant that you didn't trust Jesus. And though
you know, Jesus was not a thing until they were
brought to the US at the time, Blues have always
been so trying to mix us, to do together. Is
that deeper conversation the profound a look at culture and

(26:05):
exactly as they did, they brought that culture here and
opened the world to this beauty that is the Blues.
And they the NPR article specifically talks about the Lows
and they say, you can read the through line of
Sinners in which Sammy, the lone human survivor of a
remixed vampire horde abandonces followed this church to blade the

(26:28):
Blues in Chicago. Despite the horrors, it brings to the
Duke as not just a rejection of religiosity, but an
embrace of the blues sorcery and its continuance as a
sort of cultural necessity honoring the sacrifices that sustained the music.
So again you have that overlapping of music and if
you know, I think in the US, it's hard not

(26:49):
to know the level of depth where it comes to
music and what that brings. And then also the level
of depth of music in religion. Like music, music makes
you feel things and it is used that way, whether
it's those moments that you need to be released, so
you sing a praise song because you have to be
thankful or you need to be thankful, or whether it's

(27:12):
that moment of like you use it as a prayer,
which we've known that as a huge conversation, you use
it as a communication like people you see people doing
praise songs with their hands out with their face lifted
because they really emote through song. Is kind of that
same level. We understand that the history of the blues,
the history of a lot of black folk music how

(27:33):
to do about seeking freedom and being able to communicate
with each other as well. So there's just all overall
being and then that Sammy has taken that route that
he came for like salvation because he made it, but
then he realized that's not his route, and he goes
to Chicago in the end and become successful and has

(27:54):
that taste of success.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah, and again, I hope any listener who is listening
to this you've already seen the movie.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
But it opens with kind of a flashback. It opens
with Sammy covered in blood, injured, holding a wrecked guitar,
and then we go back from there to see how

(28:26):
that happened, how that occurred. But I do think when
we're having conversations about the history of the United States
and the history of the black community in the United
States and music and black contributions to music in the
United States, it like we.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
Can't remove the pain, the damage, the like.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
You did all of this work and then it just
got ripped away from you. And so I think that
is because when they had this kind of beautiful moment
and what felt like a very church like environment to me,
just like the lighting and the like wood panels and

(29:14):
all of that stuff, that it got infiltrated because of
this invitation by the vampires, like somebody let them in
and for Sammy to show up with all of these
injuries and this broken guitar.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
It's just it's really powerful imagery.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
And yeah, I mean the music is so key throughout
the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Oh and y'all, one of the most haunting scenes is
behind the song I Lie to You sung by Miles Kitten,
and it's performed and it becomes such an interlacing so
many ideals and cultural aspects. There's a lot to be seen.
Like you, I've feel like I've probably watched this movie
now about six times. I have not seen that scene fully.

(30:06):
Like I have not watched that scene fully, even though
I've seen it that many times. The technicality in production, choreography, layout,
breakdown in historical context is magnificent. It is again breathtaking.
It is almost overwhelming because there's so much to try
to dive into. Actually, this is from an EWT Entertainment
Weekly dot com article, and they write for Centers a

(30:29):
movie that in many ways is about the transcendence of music.
He wanted he being Ryan Coogler, wanted a cinematic representation
of that experience, especially how the experience of an artist
who heils from a particular community comes with a particular
point a view that the audience fully understands they're participating
in this performance in a way that becomes a feedback loop,

(30:50):
the filmmaker explains, And if you've ever been present in
an experience like that, it feels euphoric. For a moment,
you feel so present that you almost feel immortal. It
is like it's this context of like, Okay, this Begat,
this BEGAT this. So if you know anything about the babble,
it is just this continuation of a lineage that is
a loop that it becomes. And from again from what

(31:11):
I've read, they had to wait to the last day
of filming to set the fire scene because they set
the thing on fire literally and again it's magical and
haunting because it looks so unique, like what you see.
What you see is the perspective of the vampire remic
of the end because he's seeing this, he is seeing
the future and the like as well, and he sees
the draw That's how it is strong through that fire.

(31:33):
And back to that article, they say they somehow locked
into the very spirit that drives the scene. For these
characters that had the rotten luck of being born in
nineteen thirty two Mississippi, that's where their adulthood would be
experienced Koogles says, to have their transcendent experience where they
get to spend time with the people that came before
them and the people that came after them. Even if

(31:55):
they don't know it, they feel it again that connection,
that music, that art, it connects people. And I think
like he does a great job in bringing that with
having Buddy Guy play that character in Age, like bringing
this legend together with another legend in the making, Miles
Katon as well as Buddy Guy. Like there's this level
of loop that we're seeing where they the before and

(32:17):
the after and the beginning, like all these things we
see that loop, that layer of coming together that I
think he does a great job. And also again giving
flowers where it's due. We've talked about trying to get
flowers before, like it's too late, and this is kind
of that level, like Coogler is a king of doing those.
I feel like he does such a great job in
making sure he brings people in that deserve to be there,

(32:40):
and he makes sure to give the accolades and give
the flowers and give them their credit way before and
I can't just to see that in the cinematic feel
in such a way that was unexpected, like it was
unexpected the way it was perfectly immersed, the way it
was perfectly blended, and I was like, oh oh oh.

(33:01):
And even with that, adding like the Chinese culture in
representing the Chow characters and how their backgrounds came into
it as well, like who they were in coming into
this place, everything about that with a cinematic layer also
historical layer is such a unique perspective and so new

(33:24):
in this industry to me.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, I mean it does feel very It feels very
unique because it does kind of turn into a vampire movie.
It feels like it turns into a vampire movie probably
two thirds of the way through, and before that it's
got you know, your Southern gothic something's going on all

(33:49):
of this, but then this vampire element comes in and
you do have all of these threads of what was
going on in society at the time, and how they
I really appreciate when creators, writers, directors can hone in

(34:17):
onto who characters are quickly without like too much dialogue,
and I feel like they did that really well, of
who who these characters are, what their motivations are, and
then vampires show up, and how does that?

Speaker 3 (34:35):
How does that change things? Does it change things? Correct?

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Oh, there's so much. I did have a quote from
Ryan Koogler when he spoke with Indie Wire's podcast Filmmaker
Toolkit about that scene, and it says he said, it's
about that feeling of being at a live performance of
any art when you see a virtual also perform and
you're in the presence of a group of people who
also appreciate the art form but also the context of

(35:00):
it and know where the artist is coming from. They
relate to what's being portrayed, and the feeling of euphoria
becomes like a storm system. It's feedback happening and rippling.
I've had a few of those moments in my life
and you feel immortal, like you are outside of space
and time for a moment, like there's another presence there
with you. And it's true, like if you like really
get into a song, you really feel that song, that emotion,

(35:23):
it makes you cry, it makes your chill, so like
you were in that moment, there's something that does feel
like it stands still in that moment of like they're
talking to you. Of course, this is kind of like
when we talk about fandoms being developed and having like
this deeper relationship because you really feel that this is
a little different in that context, but like understanding that
level of music and understanding the depth of blues and

(35:48):
music on a whole different level. And as Delta says,
Delta Slim says in the scene, he says, blues it
wasn't forced on us like that religion, No, son, We
brought this with us from home. What we do is
sacred and big, and this is going back to the
origins of blues and how significant and important it is.
And during a time where I think the black community

(36:11):
was trying to find their place in the US, especially
in a place that wasn't accepting it isn't accepting of them,
like finding their belief systems, following their religious systems, and
then also remembering their culture like that that level, like
remembering the blues as it was something that they brought
with them, that's inside of them. The music that's like

(36:35):
obviously penetrates everything today. It is that level. I guess
that magic as sacred as big. And I didn't want
to throw in here about the Irish music folk music
because we had that moment, Like my partner and I'm
he is Irish, but I do like one two tree
for five moment that song. That's all I know, that's
all I know. I know, like I was like, but

(36:55):
it is really it tickles my ear in a nice way,
but it is. It's like interesting to note that, just
like in a lot of this, in this context of history,
the Irish folk music and the blues did have a
lot of crossover and collaboration and it was influential to
bluegrass as we know it as well, like the intertwining
uh the two, and like Remick, I really do feel

(37:18):
like there's all this level of context and conversation, but
the Irish really were coming into a place of trying
to find their own place in a nation that was
like nah, we don't want you either have Yeah, yeah,
at that point in time and in this level of
growing and bringing their own culture and their folk music

(37:39):
and what that meant for them in that level. And
so he represents that and he puts it well and like,
you know, I'm not like them, I'm not like these white,
racist white people. Oh no, no, I'm Irish And that
depth of that I did appreciate that. And yeah, Jack
O'Connell did a phenomenal job in a song and representing

(38:01):
that as well as the characters who played Joan and Bert.
They both are musicians and so they were brought in
for their talents and that, and they did a beautiful job.
I loved that first folk song they come in about
the pick and Robin Clean.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
I can't I mean, I don't think we can oversay
the music is so good, yes, in this movie, and
it's both It takes you back to a place in time,
but it's also.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Haunting in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah. And when these the vampires are playing these songs,
they're so good, but it's creepy. It's creepy.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. And they lay it out
that way too. And with that, we wanted dump into
about the cultural differences in racism and the dynamics that
we don't often see or talk about, or sometimes we

(39:09):
do talk about, like all these things. It being during
the Jimcrow era. And I did get a lot of
this from Historycantthide dot com because he went in and
had a whole thing about the historical context behind the movie,
and I thought they were really great. But he explains
the Jim Crow era as this Jim Crow refers to
the system of laws and customs enforcing a racial segregation
in the American South from the end of reconstruction eighteen

(39:31):
seventy seven until the Civil rights movement in nineteen fifties
to the nineteen sixties. Now, that is something that the
schools were teaching. I did learn about that in my time,
so I hope it's still happening. Oh Lord have mercy.
But it does talk about this level of segregation, the
legal segregation that we saw, and I don't know if
it started to play out again or whatever in that

(39:53):
time and what that meant. You could see it in
the scenes other than going shopping. And I know there's
been a lot conversation a little more context of the
Chinese shop owners in the South as well as how
who was customers, but the fact that they had two
separate stores, one was for the white customers and one
for the non white customers, typically black customers. And it

(40:16):
was an interesting look because it was right across the
street from each other, so kind of like that whole
saying of across the railroad track type of level of
understanding that this is their size, this is our side again,
that Jim Crow segregation level. And then also in which
I believe it was a smoke who said they came
back to the South because it's no different in Chicago.

(40:39):
It was just instead of plantations, skyscrapers, large buildings there.
He's like, it's better to be with the devil, you know,
in that reference, and knowing that you know what to
expect in the South versus what they expect in what
they say is in the North. And we've kind of
talked about that before, when sure it was better to
technically sure they were the North and fought for the North,

(41:01):
but that did not mean that they had respect or
they had the actual equality that you would think they
would as they played it out in the abolitionist movements.
So that was that big conversation in that understanding of
what this Jim Crow did for the entirety of the
United States, who was seen as equal, who was seen

(41:23):
as being able to be successful, on how to be successful,
and so it was interesting to see both of that.
And then also speaking about the Chinese American in the South.
It's been interesting is it's been popping up because of centers,
even the histories out there. Not a lot of people
knew about the Chinese community specifically in the South, and
how they kind of came over this way. And I

(41:45):
found it funny because they have I've seen a few videos,
have you anywhere you see old old Chinese people who've
been in Alabama or in Mississippi all having the thick,
big southern accident, And I was like, who are you?
Where did you come from? And They're like, no, We've
been here. This is what we know. This is the

(42:06):
community that we know. And in this conversation, which I
felt like home to me, I don't have that thick
of an accent, but I definitely have an accent. Like
just recently someone said you are not I thought you
would be essentially telling you that you like white or
not definitely not Asian, but I really did think it's interesting.

(42:26):
So going back to that history, candthide dot com a write,
Chinese immigrants began arriving in the Mississippi Delta after the
Civil War, initially recruited as plantation labor to replace emancipated
enslaved people. By the early twentieth century, many had established
grocery stores that served a predominantly black clientele, occupying a
unique middle position in the racial hierarchy of the segregated South.

(42:50):
Neither white nor black Chinese Americans navigated a complex social
landscape after facing discrimination, while simultaneously finding economic niches that
allowed for a degree of autonomy. These grocery stores frequently
extended credit to black customers and became important community spaces
despite the constraints of segregation. Now, I want to go

(43:11):
ahead and put this in here, because I'm a debbute downer,
that doesn't mean they weren't racist towards black people. I
think they were. At that point they were all together.
There was a moment of like coming together. But as
we've seen, there's a lot of level of prejudices that
happened within the communities, the Asian Chinese communities, Asian communities
with the black communities, and vice versa. In this point, though,
and we've talked about this before, the Asian community has

(43:35):
somewhat been more accepted because of the model minority myth
that was created and perpetuated in order to continue to
oppress black communities. More so, there's this level that we
will never not talk about when in this like we're
not going to say, oh, yay Chinese people, yay Chinese
Americas were all okay in this point, they were really

(43:57):
a good community together and we do celebrate that, but
we have known and seeing that white supremacy still can
be a little more enticing for communities to try to
reach for and step on others to get to that point.
But I'd loved being able to see representation like that.
I mean, the amount of Asian people who just jump

(44:18):
into this costume play y'all. I've talked about this before,
but the level of representation is so low that you
just reach for anything, and to actually see actual representation
and something as acclaimed as this, like you can't help
them just fall in love.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
And love it more.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
I did. I also want to give a shout out
to the fact that they brought in the Choctaw nations
as well, and they made sure to differentiate who they were.
That you made sure to use native language like it was.
It was just pro blip And honestly, I'm like, if
Googler wanted to make a prequel, I believed they're the ones.
I agree, Come on, come on that depth, Like, it's

(45:03):
kind of the same thing as with Annie understanding. Yeah,
having the first understanding of who the vampires were.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
Oh, that was like, let's get our garlic. That was amazing.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Yeah. No, but that's what I'm saying, Like she knew
because she was already aware of that world. And I
fully like that Native indigenous people were already aware of
that world because of the depth of understanding of they
knew of the universe, like the dark and the light.
So seeing that, I'm like this, this is the prequel
we want.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
So this is again from the history Can't Hide dot com.
They write the Choctaw are one of the original indigenous
people of southeastern United States, with ancestral lands throughout Mississippi, Alabama,
and Louisiana. Known as sophisticated farmers, skilled craftspeople, and strategic diplomats,
the Chalkdaw developed complex social and religious systems deeply connected
to the land. In the eighteen thirties, most chalk Taw,

(46:00):
or forcibly, relocated to Indian Territory now Oklahoma during the
Trail of Tears, though some remained in Mississippi. Choctaw spiritual
traditions include beliefs about soul, dualism and powerful entities residing
in natural features, concepts that have influenced regional folklore across
racial boundaries. Again, I loved everything about this. I love

(46:20):
that they were the guardians of the land. I need
this prequel. I don't know if anybody listens to us,
but we need this prequel. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
No, it was fantastic because the shock do they show
up and they're like.

Speaker 3 (46:36):
Hey, it's definitely you shouldn't invite them in this vampire.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
They don't say vampire, but uh, you shouldn't invite them in.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
Just don't do it. And I kind of love how
they were, like.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
It felt that they were protecting the land like a
lot of Indigenous people protecting the land and protecting.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
People. Yeah, I think the prequel should be them. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
I mean he literally says, we can take care of
him now and protect you. Yes, just tell us he's
here or let us in the type of conversation and
they don't listen because they're not going to listen to Well,
they said it straight right like like they called them
you know everything else, but who they were, And I
think like that level of understanding the land, the dimensions,

(47:32):
that's exactly like any who was in the Hohodoo. Uh,
practice them who are a part of the Choctown Nation,
who understand the land in itself and have been there,
have us been, was established there and still trying to
protect even the people who would want to hurt them.
Like it wasn't an interesting level. But I love that

(47:52):
they that Google and made sure that was a part
of the scene as well, and allowing for their indigenous language.
I love that. I love them. Yeah, there you are.
I think that was such a big part of why
the representation and the love of those types of education,
like on education. It's such a great way put this

(48:14):
as a blip, because this is definitely one of those
moments where we're going to have that philosophical ideal of freedom,
especially during this time, especially for the black community, especially
those who were enslaved or in times of Jim Crow.
What did that look like? And they put it really
well and like they were never free. Yeah, because if

(48:36):
they were truly free, they would have these opportunities and
not have to guard, not worry about whether they're going
to die, because they were able to celebrate whether they
were they were going to die or be murdered, because
they bought things that they had wanted, trying to survive,
trying to grow as a community. It was an interesting
conversation again with the Smokestack Twins when Preacher Boy trying

(49:02):
to tell him, this is not what you think. If
you want true freedom, there's an area not too far
from here where they actually do have a land. Go there.
It's still in the South, but they are able to
be able to be alone and do there and prosper.
It's not in Chicago, it's not in the North. It's here.
Like he talks about, if you want freedom, this is

(49:22):
what it should look like in that level of death.
But then you also have this conversation about freedom from religion,
like the secular versus the religious, like his father like
tying him down and saying, if you do these things,
you're going to hell. That ever threat of hell, the
ever that of the devil, the ever threat of being
cast out essentially was also there. So you're not free

(49:46):
from that, even though he has a passion and he
also has a gift and talent in something that his
father in the religious community, in the Christian religious community,
would see as evil.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
M hmm, yeah, I think that.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
I guess kind of the downer now I'm becoming the downer,
is that, you know, the search for freedom in so
many cases is that you have this fleeting moment of it.
And so they had it at their their kind of
juke location with the the Twins, and then you have

(50:28):
Sammy with his music who did he went on to continue.
But but this idea that you have to fight for
it and perhaps it's fleeting, I think is very prevalent

(50:48):
throughout the film.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
And that's interesting to me.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
In terms of the vampire aspect, because vampires are immortal
and theory and so to have these things that you
fight for that it might not last forever, but we

(51:15):
are worth fighting for, right.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
And you know what, I didn't explain this, and I
didn't really know about this, and I feel like when
you come back to the term juke, what it is
and the originations and so essentially the origination of that
word is a gula and if we've now talked about
the Goula Gigee culture much, but it's one of the
indigenous groups that came of the Black community within like

(51:40):
the coastal areas Savannah and South South Carolina, all of
those areas which still very much exists in their cultures
very much have influenced the Southeast a lot. But it's
actually originated from their word jug or juke, and it
has the meaning of like wicked or rowdy or disorderly.

(52:02):
So essentially this term is what it built into being
a juke joint. This is what the Mississippi Encyclopedia dot
org writes about it. The origins of the term juke
or juke jo okay remain uncertain. Some scholars again had
speculated the word derives from the African word juga, meaning
bad or wicked. Well, others believe juke comes from juice. Again,

(52:25):
I've seen more people saying that it was a Golla
die chi term, so back and forth. But it also
describes electric early electric guitars and music players or I
guess it was also called juice boxes that I didn't know.
I know. Apparently really little both old music and it
really kind of popped up again during the nineteen thirties

(52:46):
with this conversation juke joints, which we see as a
reference from like writers like Zora Neil Hurston who apparently
wrote about it in nineteen thirty four. But they were
apparently appropriate previous basis, so they weren't like something they
built up. They just kind of got there and they're

(53:07):
like they set it up there. Essentially, they're kind of
like the mill they set it up to be a
juke joined. So there's a lot of like depth and
then soul even in that word alone, and kind of
a descriptor of what they were doing having a wicked
time in that music world.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Yes, well, and I also love I think the title
is very good because of when you're talking about sinners
for a lot of us, for a lot of people
who grew up in the Western Christianity world, that means

(53:46):
a specific thing. And I think that they did a
really good job of exploring that idea of what the
sin is. And I really really I know I said
it earlier, but I really think that the setting looks

(54:08):
to me like a church, It really does, and.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
So having.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
And there's just just a lot of things going on.
There's like sex, and there's sexual tension, and there's drinking,
and there's I guess music that could be considered like rowdy.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
So I appreciated that they.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
All of that, all of that, and then to have
I really love that they have Annie come in and
be respected listen to of Hey, no, this here's what
we're gonna do. Yeah, this is what we need to do.

(54:58):
And I don't know, there was just a part of
me that I hadn't seen something so quick to be
like no, she's right, let's just yeah, no.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
I love that sensibility. And she was authoritative, like not
just like I don't though, guys, she was authoritative. She
made I'm telling y'all love her character and she deserves
all the awards. Interestingly, I wanted to go back real

(55:34):
quick in this article about the juke joints because I
think this is really important in historical contexts. So they
say the volutability of juke joints developed out of subversive
nature of early blues music itself. During slavery, African Americans
were not permitted together. In some cases, dancing and singing
also were not allowed. Despite these constraints, music played an
important part for the community. As blues music game popularity

(55:57):
in the Jim Crow South, juke joints became safe spaces
for African Americans to gather without white supervision. So that's
that important context of like not allowing the white people
in there, like you got your own thing, let us
have this, and it is it was subversive. It's kind
of that level of like again, a little bit of sinning,
a little bit against the rules, y'all won't let us
do this? So let us have this and the juke

(56:20):
joints became a thing of rebellion essentially, but also of
celebration obviously. And again like in that level of like
if there was a I guess the verses in that
level of like sin versus good faith versus evil type
of conversation, like we have to talk about the religious
overtones in this conversation again, the overlapping of the different

(56:43):
views of the time between Christianity, who do the indigenous beliefs?
Like he layered these conversations and bulliees. He had any
over here, he had the Father over here, and he
even had the truck jab Nation coming through here and
making sure that it was understood. This time was chaos,
especially for a community to try to establish home in

(57:04):
an area that would didn't feel safe, in a place
in the situation that wasn't comfortable. But this is what
they could do because they weren't giving options, like there
was no other choice. But again with that comes the
layer of adapting to where you are, so Christianity versus
remembering some of the old ways, whether like beay, I

(57:29):
guess we know the background of whodoo does come from
African culture and that level and how it is a
part of this It's a religious spiritual belief outside of
what Christianity has made it look like. You know. It's
this conversation. And there's an article written in Religious news
dot Com about this movie and in this conversation, and

(57:51):
they write this, Any's function as a spiritual mediator invites
the audience into a discourse on a black spiritual understanding
of protection, life, death. This is shown in her confrontation
with a vampire, her explanation of what a vampire is,
and her pleas to kill her. She has betten so
her soul can be reunited with her daughter. These scenes
and others position hoodoos and cexral framework as a lens

(58:14):
that views death not as an end, but as a
transitional state. As Sinners examines the poorest boundaries between the
sacred and the secular and entanglement of religion and black identity,
it offers a profound cultural contribution in this much needed
moment in the US. Sinners sets a new standard for
horror genre and begins a new chapter within the history
of black horror films. Like it does it's this context.

(58:37):
Like I love that they wrote about this because I
know I've seen discourse back and forth, and there's a
lot of black religious figures who like the movie and
who see it as is, and then there's a lot
of religious figures who are upset as some of this portrayal.
So back and forth for sure, and this conversation in
itself is such an important conversation and piece a culture

(59:01):
about where it stood. She did not see who do
was not something that said this is evil. It was like,
this is a transition, and I know that I need
to be well. She said, vampires are evil, but let's
go ahead with that. She did say that, but the
human experience in after life was seen as different and
also different from what people see as heaven, you know,
in that context as well, although the belief of heaven

(59:23):
is not as important as the belief of hell in
this context of Christianity, I think, I maan, I won't
put that there, but it was a great conversation piece,
and that because there has to be to me, especially
as a person who as a Korean that came into
the US into a very staunchly white Christian church that

(59:43):
had a lot of set of rules that also looking
back on my own culture that remember some of the
Buddhists ancestral beliefs that was incorporated because they also were Christian,
but they were colonized Christians as we know. So seeing
those different aspects and to deal with that's like Christian
trauma versus cultural understanding and understanding where Korean is in

(01:00:08):
ast Asian and Asian cultures were in who they believed
and how that changed throughout their history as well. Like
it's interesting to note like you have to try to
balance those like you need to figure out how to
equally understand I guess without feeling guilt because there's this

(01:00:29):
when you raised in one way, when you raised in
a colonized Christian atmosphere called nie Christian beliefs and that's
what you banked your life on as a child, to
growing into this and being like, wait, that doesn't make
sense because culturally, this is not where I was. You know,
this was not my beginning, This is not my culture's beginning.
So how did this overlap and who is this benefiting?

(01:00:51):
So it is it's this level of conversation that has
to be had when you confront history, your history, your
your culture versus the colonized state of today.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Yeah, there's so much to be said about this movie,
it's amazing because that, you know, you could summarize it
very simply as, oh, it's a kind of a time
piece with vampires in it, but it does have so
much going on and so much that it's talking about

(01:01:29):
in terms of race and class and women. And I
do think it's interesting about the twins because you have
the kind of two different ways that they interact with
the world and the two different ways of what happens
to them.

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
So there's just a lot of a lot to be said.
And I think that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
The fact that it's been so awarded, the fact that
it was like one of the biggest things I saw
at Dragon.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Call, yes Halloween was people. And you know, before I forget,
I'm missing the biggest context here, the usage of vampires
as an allegory and this time frame. Yes, when we
talk about colonization, when we talk about who is the
blood sucker, who is like taking and stealing from people,
who is like masquerading as the good people versus you know,

(01:02:23):
like I'll heal you, I'll do these things where you
come to mind, like if we talk about like missionaries
in their context of like bringing religion to areas that
didn't need it. Yeah, like they to steal culture, like
we talked about vampires, like to steal other cultures like
culture vultures, culture vampires. This is it, Like I I

(01:02:43):
don't know how bypassed that. There's so much to this,
but yeah, that's the huge allegory in itself for this
entirety of the horror portion.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Oh absolutely that, the whole blood sucking part and the whole.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
Yeah, gotta invite.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
I gotta take his music. I gotta take music. I
need his music.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Yes, yes, well, we had a lot to say about this.
Obviously we could keep going. We shall see what award
season brings, but I think I think they're gonna get
some some awards. But listeners, if you have any thoughts,

(01:03:26):
please let us know. You can email us at Hello
at Stuffannever Told You dot com. You can find us
on blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram
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you would like some, and we have a book you
can get where you get your books. Thanks as always too,

(01:03:46):
our super produced Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our
contributor Joey, Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
Stuff Never Told You is ructure by Heart Radio. For
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