November 29, 2023 • 47 mins
Many of you may have noticed an influx of ads on TikTok. Bridget Todd joins us to breakdown why that is, why it feels different than other platforms and why it matters.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Adie and Samantha and welcome stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I've never told you a production of iHeartRadio, and we
are once again thrilled to be joined by the wonderful,
the magnificent.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
The majestic Bridget Todd. Welcome Bridget, Thank you for having
me back. So excited to chat with you all today.
Happy holiday season, kind of sort of, I guess we're
sort of getting.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
There, kind of getting there yet we are we are.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I have that weird feeling of like before you get
on like a school break or something.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Today, right, we are trying to like get together and
do all the things very quickly.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yes, so we can actually maybe take a break. How
have you been, Bridget do you have? Have you had
any breaks or any breaks coming up?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Not really breaks. I did spend a nice weekend in
one of my favorite places, Woodstock, New York. I don't
know if anyone has been to that area, like upstate
New York, Catskills, Woodstock. It's so lovely. I try to
get up there once a fall season to like look
at the leaves. It's so nice. Yeah, I'm also looking
(01:19):
forward to Thanksgiving. I am also in that vibe where
you know when you officially start being like, let's circle
back in January, let's talk about it in the new year.
I'm in that vibe. I'm like, if it wasn't on
my radar by now, it's certainly not going on my radar.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Now, right.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yes, I am with you, although we might be circling
back with you about coming back and talking about more
Scream stuff because that was so fun.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I saw you did the Scream six episode and I
watched the Scream version that you said was like Harvey
Weinstein esque. I thought that was a really inspired tick.
I don't want to give anything away, but I would
never have if you had not said that, I would
not have been watching with an eye for that. And
I was like, oh my god, what an inspired take.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thank you you are now my breast friend. Get out. No,
I'm just kidding. No, we might be doing some more
content around.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
That, so you know, yeah, we're still looking at it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yes, yes, it's yes. But in the meantime, speaking of
the holidays, this is a topic I know nothing about.
I am very excited to learn about it, and it
does relate. So can you tell us what are we
talking about today, Bridget.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yes, So with the holiday season, sort of being here.
It always makes me think of my least favorite activity,
which is holiday shopping. I hate holiday shopping. I don't
like doing it. It's such a pain in the butt.
But I have a question, kind of a related question
for both of you. Have you ever watched QVC or
the Home Shopping Network?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I think I have in sort of the parody, like
I've seen parodies of it more than i've watched it.
I will say though, I worked for what was probably
not a great company when I was in high school
selling knives.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
That was a big brand.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I don't know how I got involved in it.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Like, looking back, I'm confused at how it happens, but
I remember kind of saying the things that I would
hear on like QBC to try to sell these knives
to older women that were like, how old are you do?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Why is there a high schooler trying to sell me
kitchen knives.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
I took a lot of college students did this because
I had several friends in my college days doing that
and the guarantee of they will always sharpen it for
the rest of your life, guaranteed sharp knives.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I don't know if they do.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
I don't need to ask my friends. If they actually
did do that anymore, it should.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
A QVC. They can't for the QVC.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
I feel like you're dating me a little bit, but
mainly because my mother went in on the QVC, and
I know there was one year, one Christmas year where
everything as where previously when we were children, it was
from the Seers Catalog Christmas Catalog, which everybody looked forward to.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Then it went to the QVC.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
And everything came from QVC, and I was like, what
the hell.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Is this uven e meant for?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Essentially, and coming into the house and seeing QBC going
Marie Osmond was the spokes person during that timeframe, I
want to say, and my mother was all in.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah, I have spent a lot of time watching QVC
in my life. It was like, I don't really know
how this started, but like you know, when you're in
college and you and your friends are getting stoned and
maybe you have a specific thing that you watched for
a laugh. Ours was QVC and Home Shopping Network. I
don't know why, and it had this like like we
did it as a joke, but I actually did quite
(05:05):
enjoy the spectacle of it. There's a kind of like
grotesque kind of spectacle to watching somebody in an over
the top way, like try to sell you a pantsuit
at two am on live television. But here's the thing
that I wanted to talk about today. As much as
I enjoyed being stoned and watching QVC when I was
in college, it feels like scrolling TikTok these days feels
(05:27):
a lot more like scrolling a virtual version of QBC
or the Home Shopping Network. More over the top ads
than ever, and the whole thing feels a little bit
like dystopian. Annie. I know that you're not big on
scrolling TikTok, but Sam, you are on TikTok. Have you
noticed this? Have you seen more ads on the platform? Well?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Weirdly, like the things that I've seen are live videos
for shops, which really threw me Offcach, I don't like
lives anyway. I'm like, I don't want to do this
because oftentimes lives, Annie, are just like people sitting. I
stumbled onto a gamer who pretending to sleep apparently for
like an hour to get likes, Like that's the way
(06:07):
they have to wake him up, And these like awards
and such gives them actual money. And I didn't know
that I was like, why is he pretending to sleep?
I am so confused. But on top of that, so
the lives already like give me the ick because it
feels odd because I don't choose. It's not people you follow,
it's just for your for your feed essentially. And so
(06:29):
when I come into shops, I'm even more confused because
at the bottom it has like twenty percent off, thirty
percent off, and then you accidentally click the button. Then
you can't get out because it takes you to three
different sites, and you're like, what the hell am I in?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
What did I just do?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yes? I also don't really like lives like I love
to consume content on TikTok from people I don't follow,
but something about the lives I immediately am like, no,
it's usually sometimes split screen or people are arguing about
something like I just don't like it, don't want to
see it, need it. What I like about TikTok is
(07:02):
that it's a platform that seems like it's full of
regular people telling like a funny or engaging story, compared
to a platform like Instagram that to me has always
felt like a polished, you know, influencer setting up an
unattainable or aspirational life thing, right, But on TikTok, now,
those engaging regular people are now like selling you something.
You know, when you scroll you get regular you know,
(07:25):
polished professional TikTok ads and tiktoks that look like normal videos,
but they say eligible for commission on the bottom, where
it's like not exactly an ad ad. But the person
who is talking to you like they're your friend does
happen to like be telling you about a product they
want you to buy and that they get a cut
of if you do TikTok or Grace Purcell actually described
(07:45):
it really well. She said that TikTok is feeling like
Shean and Ali Express had a baby too, like fast
fashion retailers that y'all might be familiar with.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
All right, so I do have a question and you
might not know the answer to those because I've seen
a lot of the four eligible but it's on things
that are either older like have been like I might
not have crossed it earlier, and then you click on
the date and like, oh it was a month ago,
to things that are just fan cam videos. So I
am on a lot of K pop TikTok don't judge
(08:16):
or k drama TikTok and they're not really eligible to
sell anything. It's just individuals who like to pull show
portions of like clips of a show or clips of
a performance.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And says eligible. I'm like, wait, do they.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Choose to put that on there? Or is that just
Tiktoks like, Hey, I'm gonna put this on there.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Great question. I'm not one hundred percent sure. So if
anybody listening is like, that's not cracked, let me know.
My understanding is that in order to be eligible for
TikTok's Affiliate creator program, you a creator has to have
five thousand or more followers. And so I think that
when it says eligible for commission, I think that that
is TikTok's way of saying, hey, this person it's like
(08:55):
a bad thing, Like, hey, this person has met the
requirements in order to be able to be part of
TikTok's affiliate program. That's what I think. Oh, don't one
hundred percent quote me on.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
That, yeah, because that the scares me and makes me
like I don't want to buy anything from you.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
You get away from me immediately run.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Well, that's kind of the thing that I that I
want to talk about today is that I feel like
something about the experience of being on TikTok which previously
had been this platform to like consume, whether it's your
K pop fan cams or whatever, now having everything feel
like kind of spammy just feels kind of sus like,
it just feels scammy. It feels weird, and I don't
(09:36):
know that it's really lending itself to an experience. It
feels like a place where you would want to enter
your financial information for instance, you.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Know, right, I think a lot of it feels like
I'm being like, like you said, I feel like I'm
being scammed, which I'm already like very overly cautious of
because it's constant as it is, whether it's misinformation from
some things, because we know a lot of things are
happening TikTok uh in Instagram and Twitter, all the things
(10:02):
that I've decided to be similar things to show the
stories or the whatever whatnot, and a lot of activists
and people who have been censored are able to come
on to there, to be able to do a lot
more content. But it makes me worry that I'm like,
is this all a lie? And is this for money?
Because I know, I don't if you're gonna talk about
this in a minute. The STC just went after several
(10:23):
creators for not doing enough to show that they are sponsored.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yet this is something that I could talk about all day.
I will say this that, like I think a lot
of creators and also platforms have been skirting lines around
what is and it's not sponsored content. By law, if
something is an AD, you have to it has to
be clear. It doesn't matter if you're on social media
or not. And so I remember seeing that those influencers
(10:50):
had gotten popp by the FTC for not disclosing that
something is an AD. You see influencers doing all kinds
of tricks where they make the sponsored or hashtag ad
so tiny you can see it. Maybe they put it
on the on the almost Instagram story, they hide it
behind something, all kinds of tricks. But let me tell you,
if you are someone who is intending to be an
influencer or intending to make content that is sponsored, don't
(11:13):
piss off the FDC. It's not worth it.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
It's not a good idea. That's about the professionals.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yes, and we've we've had to have meetings about this,
Like I am terrified of it. I'm like, I will
say like fifteen times, like just.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
So a ad like going back to because more and
more I am seeing creators that I've trusted or I
follow having the commission being an AD for something and
being confused because it feels like a normal video that
I usually would watch with them with all of a
(11:50):
sudden insert of something and I'm like, wait, did I
just watch an AD? And it like like it's it's
odd how often it's happening. And I feel like there's
definitely a pointed like black Friend, as well as holidays
deals coming up, all of these and I get enough
of that with like Amazon exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
And I guess that's my thing. I think that TikTok
is unique as a shopping platform in terms of being
what they call a social shopping platform, which is like
a mix of social media content that is user generated
and also e commerce shopping ability. I think that exactly
what you said, like there is something about TikTok that
(12:30):
has primed me to think when I am scrolling that platform,
I am just in getting content from engaging people, when
that content is actually an AD, when that content is
actually trying to sell me something something about it happening
on a platform that I just have normalized, is like
where I get by my funny content or whatever. Just
doesn't it just doesn't. I don't know. It just feels
really strange. And I think that again, when I'm on
(12:53):
Instagram scrolling, I'm a pretty good sense that, like I
am getting content from in for people who are really
polished and pretty. I feel like on TikTok there is
something that is harder for me to resist. Right on Instagram,
it's like they're serving up ads for this aspirational version
of the person I want to be, right, polished and
(13:14):
pretty and effortless. On TikTok, they are speaking to the
person that I actually am, which is like lazy and
easily entertained by novelty, right, and so like something about
it being a more authentic space just also makes it
a space where it's like you're more poised to, if
you're me, pull the trigger on stuff that you maybe
don't even need.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
And this was a recent development, right, Like the things
that you're speaking to, the things you're seeing, that's kind
of a new thing on TikTok.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Correct, absolutely, So what's going on is that this is
the rollout of TikTok Shop. TikTok's affiliate creator program that
was officially rolled out in September after months of testing.
How it works is, as I said, creators that have
more than five thousand followers can get a cut of
whatever they sell on the platf TikTok takes a five
percent cut as well. So the rollout for this was
like not great in some of the ways we'll talk
(14:06):
about on this episode. But with Black Friday coming up,
TikTok is really kind of seeing this as a big
way to test the platform not just to be a
social app, but to be a social shopping app with
the potential to rival other e commerce big platforms like
your Amazon's, your Sheian's. Things like that Black Friday officially
rolled out on TikTok last month. Whirired. Actually, that are
(14:28):
really great breakdown of how it works. You might see
stuff on TikTok for Black Friday that is like suspiciously
low price, or like, how does this make sense that
this is so cheap? Well, that's because TikTok is kind
of subsidizing these suspiciously low prices on this gamble that
they're betting that social shopping is going to be the
next big thing. So the app sellers can pick items
(14:50):
to be discounted on their shops and then create their
own markdowns, which are then further subsidized by TikTok's discounts.
Kind of like how when Uber first came out, ubers
were like really cheap. You could get where you were
going for like eight dollars, and that was because Uber
the company was subsidizing the cost and like operating at
a pretty big loss in order to get us like
all hooks to use an Uber. And now that same
(15:12):
ride probably is thirty dollars or more because Uber is
no longer subsidizing the cost to get us all hooked.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
We're all hooked now, right, And so yeah, so that's
been happening. You're s going through TikTok, as you said,
and you're not used to this kind of like having
this authentic content and then ads. So you were talking
about that of how it's just kind of been jarring
and hard for you to get sus out more.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
What's an AD and what's not?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Can you talk about that and why this is something
that we should be talking about totally.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So I think, like you said, like there's just something
about this experience on TikTok that is psychologically different. You
go to Amazon out of utility. Right when I need
something on Amazon, I pull up the app, or I
type in Amazon dot common to the browser, and I
search what it is that I need, I buy it,
and I'm done. On TikTok, it does feel more like
a QVC because you're just scrolling content. So some of
(16:10):
it is adds, some of it is non ad content.
But I think that having it be this experience where
it's like it's just stuff being served to you at
least makes me a lot more eager to buy, Like
I find myself buying things that I just fully do
not need because of that scroll where I'm in the
mindset that I'm just looking at content. I'm not necessarily
trying to go shopping right now. And here's why I
(16:30):
think that people should care and why this is actually
really important. Everybody is always talking about how powerful TikTok's
algorithm is, right, it feels like it can really suss
out a lot about you, your needs, your insecurities, how
you live your life, all of that. So when you
add in that hyper targeted feel to shopping, it can
feel like it creates the conditions for folks to just
(16:52):
buy bye bye without really thinking right. Changes to the
way that we shop digitally that reduce what they call
friction just make it really easy, easier than ever to
just click buy on something you might not even really want.
And as we're all thinking about doing our holiday shopping,
we should really also be having critical conversations about the
way that shopping is showing up in our lives on
(17:12):
social media platforms and who all of those changes really benefit,
because I would argue is not benefiting us the person
who is like just trying to look at TikTok content
without being surfaced up as every third TikTok.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
And one of the big questions as I'm looking at this,
because they have added I feel like so many different
ways to shop, like we have that now the targeted
Hey we have a sale, you should go this where
the shop to people who are influencers saying I found
this hack, go to this place. Or the one that
drives me crazy is the Amazon Finds or Amazon Deals
(17:56):
of the Day and then you go to their link
and it has it on their link and you go
through their site and they get a cost of money.
There's so many different things like that, where it feels
like it's just a consumer mechanism now exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
So, I did an interview with Pretty Critical. She's a
TikTok content creator who uses her platform to really have
frank conversations about shopping and financial, health and wellness and
beauty and consumerism. And she basically said the whole thing
right that, like it feels like a cycle. There's just
so many different things on the platform that are telling
you bye bye, bye bye bye, that it really normalizes
(18:32):
consumption without critical thought. It makes it seem like it
is totally normal to have an entire display of Stanley
water tumblers of every different color of the rainbow when
you cannot possibly use all of them. It makes you
think like, hey, this is normal. Everybody is doing this.
And another thing that she pointed out in our interview,
which you could listen to on my podcast, There Are
No Girls on the Internet, is that you don't necessarily
(18:55):
know the financial situation of either of the people that
you're seeing on tikto and so like this TikTok creator
might be making content that feels really authentic that makes
you think like, oh, we're really similar, we're living similar
kinds of lives, but you don't know that to be true.
She might have a trust fund, she might have a
rich partner, right like, she might be in a totally
different financial situation than you and be financially incentivized through
(19:19):
making money in getting you to feel the connection to
be like, yeah, I have a million water tumblers. You
can too, That's a totally normal thing to do. And
so I think all of that leads to folks feeling
more and more like these platforms are just I don't know,
dystopian digital malls rather than platforms to really have conversation
(19:39):
and connection and learn things. Amanda Mall is this journalist
at The Atlantic who has been doing a lot of
great coverage about how we shop online. I'll be citing
a few of her pieces in this conversation, but in
her piece, It's too easy to buy stuff you don't want,
she points out that retailers online have really made some
intentional changes to get us to do exactly what you
just said, Samanthah, but just really easily click by. Amanda writes,
(20:04):
over time those changes have become really commonplace, Like you
don't have to type in a password or your credit
card information every single time you shop online. Like, I
was really surprised when I bought something on TikTok. I
bought one thing on TikTok shop once when I want
to buy something else, I was really surprised that they
just saved all of my information and it was just like, oh,
you want to buy something else, well, all you got
(20:25):
to do is click here, one click right. I was like, Oh,
I don't think they asked for my permission to do this,
that I remember. I don't think like I told them
to do this. It was a little sus to me
how easy the platform had made it by saving all
of my information. And so retailers really refer to this
as friction. Friction is anything that might present a barrier
(20:46):
between you actually making that purchase. You know, I can't
tell you how many times I click buy on something
only to leave it in my online cart and then
like just abandon it for whatever reason. Is that something
that you've ever done.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
All the time. I love that when I go though
it first and foremost. At one point, TikTok people so
were like, hey, this is a good way to stop
stop spending money. Think about it. Just keep it in
your in your car for a little while, and then
if you still need it or think about it a
week later, come back to it, like if you if
you wait, you might find out that you.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Actually don't need it.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
So I did this because I am easily influenced, apparently
by TikTok, And yes, I leave things for a year
until is like unavailable, and then I'm like, I guess I.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Didn't need that.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Well, I once after I broke up with my ex, Oh,
I used to put I would I would lie awake
at night and I couldn't sleep, and I would put
these cookies in my cart bridge. I would put this
dozen cookies in my cart from this place in Atlanta
that delivers hot cookies all night. And one time I
(21:55):
finally would like, I left them there, left them there.
One time I finally I was like, all right, I'm
going to do it. This woman shows up and she
looks like, oh, you didn't mean to order this many cookies,
because all the times I had put the cookies in
the cart they were so I spent seventy five dollars
(22:17):
cookies for one person.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
What'd you do with those cookies?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Though?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I took them outside and then destroyed them with a
baseball bat because I was a really dramatic part of.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
My life, the part of the breakup that gets dramatic.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
It was raining outside. Yeah, it was the whole thing.
I didn't eat any of the cookies.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Which made that's tragic to me, and I felt offended
by that not eating the cookie, at least one one
warm cookie. I would eat the MOOKI yeah, and crying them.
That's obviously a part of that. But I will say
I think another part that bothers me about this new
incentive and new ideal is that one of the reasons
I did like and I did start shopping with TikTok
(22:58):
was that you could find independent stores, small shops, small
shops created by marginalized people, and you kind of had
a better Maybe I was being tricked, I don't know,
but a better understanding of where these products were coming
from and who it was benefiting. I've done Christmas presents
through that. I think I bought a shirt from Mahogany
(23:20):
t Shirts, which has you know, I loved her company
and I love what she represented, and I really wanted
to do that. So I found her on TikTok and
I loved everything about that. Found other shops similar to
that that I'm like, I want to support this creator,
and now it's kind of feeling like it's getting toppled
by these other bigger content and bigger corporations.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
That's exactly what I have seen. I want to be
clear that it is not all bad. Wire reports that
small businesses can really see a boost from social selling
on TikTok, like shops can see a flood of interest
on their products that they take off or go viral
on TikTok. So I want to be clear that I'm
not trying to demonize small businesses. I think that small
businesses and artisans should be able to have platforms. But
(24:01):
because of the way that TikTok shop has been rolled out,
you have small business and like artisan goods also alongside
goods made by like big box retailers whose names you
would recognize, like I think pac Son is on there,
Zara is on there. Then you have like basically mass
produced junk, like crap that is going to break immediately.
(24:24):
You have all of that vying on the same platform.
And so I think it's great the idea that small
businesses or small artists or artisans can go viral or
really you know, have a boost in sales and visibility
by using a platform. I don't know that it's necessarily
fair to have those small creators in small shops competing
with Zara and pac Son and then also competing with
(24:46):
like name unknown mass produced item that costs a nickel
to make or something like. I almost feel like it
doesn't necessarily create fair conditions for those small businesses and
artisans to thrive.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Right, And I think one of the things that I'm
hearing through this conversation as someone who doesn't use TikTok
that much, is that this sounds like a lot of
other things that I have used. Though It's like the
idea of making it easier to pay, of storing your
payment information, of removing this friction, as you say, removing
(25:21):
these barriers, of offering these deals.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It's almost.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Kind of heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
It feels like it's kind of following these other patterns
but perfecting on it, or like making it more difficult.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yes, And so I guess that's one of the things
that I really want to point out in this episode
is that we should just be aware of how all
of these changes and tweaks incentivize us to buy, makes
it seamless to do so, and benefits platforms and retailers.
So if you have a little bit of a shopping problem,
which if you do, you should definitely talk to somebody
(25:56):
about that. But like you are, not just it's not
just happens dance. All of these digital changes make it
very very easy to buy, even when you don't want
the thing. Amanda Mall writes, a handful of small changes
to the mechanics of online shopping had begun to accumulate
into something meaningful. Advertisers were amassing stores of personal data
with which to tailor they're to ad targeting retailers were
(26:19):
offering free shipping and free returns on anything. Buy now,
decide later. Browsers and operating systems were urging users to
save login credentials and financial details with their software. The
expanded use of payment shortcuts like Apple Pay and Shopify
shop pay were circumventing the need to create a new
account or log into an old one. Buy now, pay
later services including Klarna and a firm were beginning to
(26:40):
pop up at more retailers to soften the blow of spending.
In the intervening five years, these changes have become the
default infrastructure of online shopping, maximizing convenience over all else
in an effort to make buying things as effortless as possible,
as retailers are all too eager to tell everyone, buying
things online has never been so simple, so seamless, so easy,
(27:00):
so easy in fact, that we might all be better
off with a few more speed bumps. And I mean
it sounds counterfintuitive, but I agree ease and convenience is great.
Like I am not above being taken in by convenience,
but when it comes to technology, convenience always comes at
a cost. And so the cost is that like maybe
(27:21):
we're all buying more junk than we actually mean to
buy because it is so easy and that ease. It
may seem convenient to us, but actually we're losing out,
and it's platforms and retailers who are benefiting.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of a joke that
a lot of us have said. That started with in
my opinion, Amazon, but it was like, to get the
free shipping, I need to spend a little bit more
on something else. But ultimately, are you saving more money
if you're buying something you didn't really want or need?
Just to get the free shipping. It's just like they've
(27:54):
convinced us, Oh, this is a deal though, this is
a deal.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Oh my god, And it's so effective. Like the psychology
of how we spend is fascinating, like and we've all
felt it where you're like, oh, well, like when you
put here in DC, we're having a big conversation about
tipping and like how much you should tip if they
do an automatic tip whatever, And there's something about it,
like if you went to a restaurant and the hamburger
(28:19):
was ten dollars and you were like, okay, that's fine,
and then at the end of the meal it's like,
oh well, a twenty five percent service fee that's mandatory.
You're like, whoa, what is this? What is this like
aftermarket fee that I did not know about the psychology
of that is different than if the price of that
hamburger was twenty five percent. More like the way that
our brains work around prices and what's too high and
(28:41):
what's like you know, what is like a ceiling you
will not cross. It's so fascinating, but we've all experienced it, right,
and so part of me can't even blame the retailers
for taking advantage of these these quirks to our psychology.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, it is fascinating because it's I think it's like
you feel when you feel like you're getting scammed as
you say, or or you're getting the deal, Like are
you coming out on top of this thing? Are you
coming out on bottom when all of it's kind of
capitalism that is screwing us all over exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's like if there was like a tagline to every
piece of content I make is that it's capitalism's fault,
Like that's the real the real enemy here. And something
else to note is that kind of like what you
were talking about, Samantha of you know, are you getting
something that is made lovingly by an artisan? Are you
getting like a piece of crap that's going to fall apart?
(29:39):
Some of the stuff that you can buy on TikTok
shop is not on the level right, Like this is
really speaking to when they first rolled out. I think
that they've kind of maybe normalized some of this now,
But when TikTok Shop first rolled out, the platform just
felt like you were getting served up ads for junk essentially.
Amanda mall That and a journalist I talked about earlier
(30:02):
She talked about TikTok spokesperson who said that their algorithm
plus human moderation was supposed to weed out bad products,
like if a product didn't match the item that was shipped,
or if like something was wrong with it. It used a
different image that a human plus an algorithm was supposed
to weed that out, but that sometimes it just didn't
work that effectively. Amanda writes, sometimes problems go unnoticed until
(30:25):
people start reporting issues, like the listing will use stock
images that don't depict the products they're actually selling, omit
important details on sizing or material or composition, or offer
counterfeit and potentially unsafe products. Even legitimate listings from scrupulous
sellers can make for a confusing or scammy feeling shopping
experience because sellers create a lot of duplicate listings for
(30:46):
the same products. That's especially common on TikTok, where sellers
rush to meet demand for the handful of products that
have captivated the platform at any particular moment, And I
think that's like why it can feel so scammy. When
I was doing my recent for the episode I did
with that influencer Pretty Critical, numerous people I talked to
said that they would never buy anything on TikTok. They
would never put their financial information into TikTok because something
(31:10):
about it just made it seem like you were gonna
get scammed if you did.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
I mean, we definitely had money of stories.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Do you remember the pink sauce? Lady?
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Oh, the pink ye'all? I tried the pink sauce. I
did not. I did not buy on TikTok. I bought
it omar. I wouldn't buy a food product on TikTok,
although more on that later. But did anyone try it?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I don't know what this is.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Pink food weirds me on anyway like that, But I'm like, no,
I'm good. Yeah, you were more adventurous.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Yeah, pink sauce was this condiment that I just got
a random lady on TikTok was making in her house
and it ret viral. You could buy it on TikTok.
It was bright pink. But then sometimes people would buy
it and they were like, oh, it was more like brown.
Like it was like there was clearly not a lot
of like no, because this is yeah, not a lot
of consistency happening, and people were like, oh, don't. Like
(32:04):
people would get the bottles and they would be like,
it's like you know when a bottle, like something is
going wrong with the product, and the bottle was like inflated,
people would be like, Oh, something's up with this. But
it was actually ended up being a situation where because
it went so viral, I think, like a legitimate food
retailer bought it and that's why I was able to
like buy a legitimate bottle of it in walmartket.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
Yeah, for the longest time, she had to stop production
because she got FDA coming on to her and they're like,
is this even tested? And like she would not talk
about what the ingredients were. There was milk involved and
it wasn't being like ice or anything. When it was
sent down and everybody was like okay, and everybody's bottle
had different colors.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Oh my god, I this is like such an aside.
I remember when that was happening. She went on TikTok
Live and she was like, people are making fun of
my pink sauce of this that FDA approved. I don't
make medicine. I don't make a drug. Why would it
have to be FDA approved? And it was like, honey,
the first fic food though literally get it.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Okay, okay, you get people you're screwed. There's a lot
of building but yeah, like stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
I know, there was a big conversation like who is
actually testing these things?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Who can say?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
And like because she was getting big endorsements from people
like this is tasty, from people who had millions of
followers because she would just send them out for free,
and people were like the pickle lady. There's a pickled
person too who did the same thing. It was a
similar situation that everybody and then everybody had a backtrack
and then TikTok had a kind of backtrack and be
like okay, okay, calm down, everybody.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
So this actually that's actually a good segue into another
issue with like TikTok shop feeling a little bit scammy
is the issue of like what happens when a product
on there is not just a dupe or like a
counterfeit product, but it's actually harmful because some of the
stuff that you get on TikTok, particularly stuff that you're consuming,
could be harmful if it's not actually being regulated. So
(34:01):
TikTok says that they ban the advertising and sale of
all counterfeit products quote. By ensuring the safety and authenticity
of products sold on our platform, we create a positive
shopping experience that users can have confidence in their policy says. However,
a guardian of report back in April suggests that these
rules were not being effectively enforced, with illicit beauty products
(34:21):
routinely being promoted to users via their content feeds and
search results. TikTok again takes a cut, so that means
that the platform was effectively profiting off of the sale
of illegal and or counterfeit goods. And so again it's
not just that this is like can be scammy, or
can be like counterfeit or whatever. It can be harmful.
TikTok bans the sale of prescription only medicines such as
(34:43):
acne skin cream or skin whitening creams that contain certain
band ingredients. But if you're on skincare TikTok, when the
skin product tretton Noen was taking off on the platform,
which you need a prescription for, you could buy it
easily on TikTok shop. So there's a reason and why
that skincare product is prescription only. It can lead to
interactions with other medications and calls fetal abnormalities have taken
(35:07):
while you're pregnant, and so it is recommended that you
use it under a doctor supervision. But if you're just
buying it on TikTok, you're obviously not using it under
a doctor supervision. The Guardian actually spoke to doctor Jane
Ravenscroft of the British Association of Dermatologists, who said that
the sale of illicit skincare creams was a major concern
and a major public health risk. She says, unfortunately, people
(35:29):
selling these prescription products illegally are preying on people's insecurities
and naivete. Social media adds fuel to this fire. TikTok
did eventually block searches for trettonoen and removed listings from
third party vendors that referred to that ingredient after The
Guardian published this report. But yeah, it's not just that
these products can be scammy or spammy or just counterfeit
(35:52):
or not at the level they could hurt you, like
if you take the medication the wrong way. It can
mess you up. If you eat something that has not
been FDA approved and it's a weird color and it's
like a dairy product that has not been kept cold,
you can get really sick. Like this is not a game,
it's serious, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
And I think one thing about this that again I
find interesting about the Human Psyche is that I once
tried to get desperately. I wanted these contacts for cosplay.
They're illegal in the US, and I was like, but
I can get them, though, and I could. I found
a way I could buy them. But you know, this
should have been a part of my mind that was
(36:41):
like wait though, and I never used them. But I think,
like it's a mistake to think that people who are
buying these things are stupid or they're not intelligent.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I think it's a mistake.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
If it's available and easy to buy, I totally understand it.
Like I totally get it, especially if you're seeing people
that you follow maybe respect relate to using a product
and you're like, okay, well they are using it, They're fine,
I'll use it too. So I think that's the key
thing to say.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Oh, I'm so glad you added that. I Yeah, Like,
I don't think that anybody who is buying things and
like diligently searching for them to buy them, even if
they're not like approved or whatever. If they're legal illegal here.
I don't think it's on them, It is on the platform. Like,
I don't think that a platform should be then making
money from that from that they don't thin they should
(37:36):
get it. I don't think that a platform should get
a cut from someone who has like made the decision
to seek out something that maybe is not legal here
for whatever reason. Right, Like, there's I'm big into sunscreens.
There's all kinds of sunscreens that I like to use
that you can't just go into cvs in the United
States and buy, right, But Like, I think it's different
when a platform, a private company is taking a cut
(37:58):
of that illegal transaction. Right, Like, There's been a whole,
a whole situation of like parents who unfortunately lost their
kids because their kids brought illegal drugs on platforms like
TikTok or Snapchat, which apparently is like not really that difficult.
Imagine then if TikTok or Snapchat was also taking a
cut of that sale, right, Like, that wouldn't be acceptable.
(38:21):
And I think, I mean it's really an issue of
like I don't blame the individual who's making that choice,
but I don't think that platform should be financially benefiting
from it because then it's incentivized absolutely.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
So, as you said, this is a pretty new thing
and uh TikTok shop and it's been a little bit
of a rough rollout. What do you think is in
the future for it? Is it here to stay?
Speaker 3 (38:45):
This is a great question. I guess the answer I
will give is maybe tbd. We will see. I think
it kind of depends on how Black Friday goes for TikTok.
This kind of shopping functionality is much more common in China,
where TikTok is based with brands like Timu, and I
think that TikTok is kind of betting that will take
off here too. It's a lot less like Amazon. Like
(39:06):
when I first started researching this, I was like, Oh,
they're trying to be like Amazon with content. It's more
like Sheian with content, right, So, like, imagine if like Amazon,
Shean and TikTok all merged into one super app where
you consumed content and also made content and also shopped.
Social and live shopping is huge across Asia. Wired reports
(39:28):
that in China alone, live shopping is expected to drive
nearly twenty percent of online shopping this year. And I
think that it's when when Elon Musk decided that he
was going to try to change the name of Twitter
to X. I think that he was trying to turn
X into like a super app where you are having
making social content, talking to people, but also banking, also
(39:48):
watching video, right, Like, I don't know if that is
going to really take off in the United States. Like
I think it's a bit of a cultural shift to
that that sort of thing. Facebook and in both tried
to do live shopping functionality and then later phase them out,
so it didn't work for them. And I just think
that maybe we're not really I don't know, I don't
know if we are really down to shop that way
(40:11):
in the United States. Like, look at Amazon when I shop. Unfortunately,
I do use Amazon. I know. I like to buy
my groceries from Whole Foods when I can, which Amazon owns.
I use One Medical as my healthcare provider. Amazon owns
that too. Here in DC, my local newspaper is the
Washington Post. Well, guess who owns that Amazon. I'm not
(40:31):
thrilled about this, and I don't think that most people
are thrilled with the idea of one place being where
they get a lot of their needs met. And I
think that TikTok is kind of betting that this is
just the inevitable future of the Internet and social media
and commerce, and that we're all going to get used
to it. I saw a report that TikTok is actually
(40:51):
planning on selling and delivering groceries and the United States soon.
I haven't been able to verify that, but I did
see a report indicating that it might sound hard to believe,
but in twenty twenty two, TikTok did announce that people
could now purchase fresh and frozen food directly from TikTok
shop in the UK. So it's not that far fetched
that they would then be like, well, we want to
(41:13):
be where you make contact, where you consume content, where
you get your groce fees, where you buy your novelty goods, everything.
And I think that's kind of my point in bringing
this to you all today, is that, like you know,
with technology like this, it may start out as convenient,
but convenience always comes at a cost when it comes
to technology. If one tech company becomes the end all
(41:34):
be all of how we consume everything, how we buy everything,
we could see a dynamic where they can really do
whatever they want because what are we going to do?
Go elsewhere their everything?
Speaker 1 (41:43):
You know, Amazon's trying to sell cars.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Oh you rightly so much? At what point is it
like we don't need to get everything from you? Like
fair if I want to get a car, I can like,
are you gonna sell houses? Like what's next?
Speaker 1 (41:58):
What is happening? Yeah? I will.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
I find it interesting that TikTok has got done this
because again we've talked about the algorithm, and so when
you click on something for I've done this on Facebook.
This is where I'm like, I feel like a boomer
or I've accidentally clicked on a link of advertising and
then then from then on I just kept getting that
one advertising. So I'm thinking like with TikTok being the
(42:20):
way their algorithm is is kind of similar to that word.
They just get almost obsessive, like U slaw. This is
one thing I'm going to show you twenty times. This
is the one thing. So how does that how that's
going to kind of break TikTok in my head because
that's not what like you want the algorithm, but not
that very specific algorithm.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Yeah, I don't want to be stalked by one pair
of boots that I happen to click on once that
I might not even want, Like that's just not the
experience that I want for my digital ecosystem. It's like
I just I just think that we deserve better, Like
I think that, you know. It makes me feel a
bit sad, like the end all be all of the
(43:03):
promise of technology is like how can we get people
to click on stuff and sell them things? Like I
want to have digital media platforms where I'm learning things,
where I'm experiencing things, where I'm having community. And it
just makes me sad that, like it seems like the
end all be all is just like how can we
sell more junk? I hate that right right?
Speaker 4 (43:24):
And then talking about the fact that TikTok was originally
for younger generations, younger kids, and how easy it is
to buy this could be a parent's worst nightmare.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Oh yes, NBC actually did a report all about how
minors like young people are selling products on TikTok shop,
even though that is against TikTok's policies. All they have
to do is lie about their age. But like, just imagine,
like me a grown woman getting sold a pair of
leggings by like a sixteen year old in between their classes.
(43:54):
It is just dystopian. It's just very weird.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
That makes me said, yeah, I was gonna say dystopian too,
because it feels like not only are they trying to
all of these tech companies are trying to take over
like every avenue of our lives. It's hard to imagine
the time before something like Amazon for me, But it's
also they want you to spend all of your time there,
all of your time consuming the content, buying the things,
(44:20):
and it's just like a cycle where you're trapped and
all of your time is right there.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yes, and that is exactly the dynamic that I want
for all of us to break free from. Like we
already give these platforms so much, they already take so
much from us. They don't have to take everything. And
I guess I worry that we're going to get to
a place where this is going to be more normalized
that like they just they want all of your time
and all of your money and all of your energy,
(44:47):
and I don't think we should give it to them.
So this holiday, I really want us to make smart
choices about how and what and why we buy. You know,
if you're finding yourself buying stuff that you don't need
on social media. Ask some question, like do you really
need that item? Put it in your cart and see
how that feels for a while. Don't click buy right away.
Are you clicking this because it's easy, because you're bored,
(45:07):
because it's like a dopamine hit, Like, really, ask some
questions about why it is you're buying things. Oh and
if you really hate TikTok shop and you don't want
to see any more of those eligible for commission videos,
you can actually turn it off. If you go to
your profile on TikTok, open the menu in the top right,
hit settings and Privacy content preferences, filter video keywords, and
(45:28):
then add hashtag TikTok shop. You will not have to
see those ads anymore. My holiday gift from me to you.
You're welcome, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I need this.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I love that. And I actually was thinking about this.
I think it'd be interesting to come back after this
has been around for a little bit longer. Because you
also did the episode bridget on de influencing on TikTok,
so I feel likek the there's an interesting intersection there
of like that was happening where people were saying, okay,
let's get de influenced to now you have TikTok shop,
(46:03):
So what does that look like?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
That's such an interesting question. I'm so curious to see because,
like I do think that people want like more authentic
online experiences that are not just like bye bye bye.
And I think that's why we saw deinfluencing pop up
as a trend. So how will that bump up alongside
TikTok shop taking off?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
We will see yes, yes, well.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Thank you so much as always Bridget for taking the
time for breaking this down for us. We love to
have you. Hopefully we'll have you back for some scream
stuff along with the tech content that we love.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (46:42):
You can find me at my podcast there are no
girls on the Internet. You can find me on Instagram
at Bridget Marie and DC or on Twitter at Bridget Marie.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Thank you again so much, and listeners, if you would
like to contact us you can. You can find us
email us at Stephania mom stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter, a podcasts, or on
Instagram and TikTok at stuff. One never told you we
have a book that you can get wherever you get
your books. We have a tea public score. Thanks as
always too, our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
(47:11):
and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You
is a protection by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
my heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Adie and Samantha and welcome stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I've never told you a production of iHeartRadio, and we
are once again thrilled to be joined by the wonderful,
the magnificent.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
The majestic Bridget Todd. Welcome Bridget, Thank you for having
me back. So excited to chat with you all today.
Happy holiday season, kind of sort of, I guess we're
sort of getting.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
There, kind of getting there yet we are we are.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I have that weird feeling of like before you get
on like a school break or something.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Today, right, we are trying to like get together and
do all the things very quickly.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yes, so we can actually maybe take a break. How
have you been, Bridget do you have? Have you had
any breaks or any breaks coming up?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Not really breaks. I did spend a nice weekend in
one of my favorite places, Woodstock, New York. I don't
know if anyone has been to that area, like upstate
New York, Catskills, Woodstock. It's so lovely. I try to
get up there once a fall season to like look
at the leaves. It's so nice. Yeah, I'm also looking
(01:19):
forward to Thanksgiving. I am also in that vibe where
you know when you officially start being like, let's circle
back in January, let's talk about it in the new year.
I'm in that vibe. I'm like, if it wasn't on
my radar by now, it's certainly not going on my radar.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Now, right.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yes, I am with you, although we might be circling
back with you about coming back and talking about more
Scream stuff because that was so fun.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I saw you did the Scream six episode and I
watched the Scream version that you said was like Harvey
Weinstein esque. I thought that was a really inspired tick.
I don't want to give anything away, but I would
never have if you had not said that, I would
not have been watching with an eye for that. And
I was like, oh my god, what an inspired take.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thank you you are now my breast friend. Get out. No,
I'm just kidding. No, we might be doing some more
content around.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
That, so you know, yeah, we're still looking at it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yes, yes, it's yes. But in the meantime, speaking of
the holidays, this is a topic I know nothing about.
I am very excited to learn about it, and it
does relate. So can you tell us what are we
talking about today, Bridget.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yes, So with the holiday season, sort of being here.
It always makes me think of my least favorite activity,
which is holiday shopping. I hate holiday shopping. I don't
like doing it. It's such a pain in the butt.
But I have a question, kind of a related question
for both of you. Have you ever watched QVC or
the Home Shopping Network?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I think I have in sort of the parody, like
I've seen parodies of it more than i've watched it.
I will say though, I worked for what was probably
not a great company when I was in high school
selling knives.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
That was a big brand.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I don't know how I got involved in it.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Like, looking back, I'm confused at how it happens, but
I remember kind of saying the things that I would
hear on like QBC to try to sell these knives
to older women that were like, how old are you do?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Why is there a high schooler trying to sell me
kitchen knives.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
I took a lot of college students did this because
I had several friends in my college days doing that
and the guarantee of they will always sharpen it for
the rest of your life, guaranteed sharp knives.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I don't know if they do.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
I don't need to ask my friends. If they actually
did do that anymore, it should.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
A QVC. They can't for the QVC.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
I feel like you're dating me a little bit, but
mainly because my mother went in on the QVC, and
I know there was one year, one Christmas year where
everything as where previously when we were children, it was
from the Seers Catalog Christmas Catalog, which everybody looked forward to.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Then it went to the QVC.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
And everything came from QVC, and I was like, what
the hell.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Is this uven e meant for?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
Essentially, and coming into the house and seeing QBC going
Marie Osmond was the spokes person during that timeframe, I
want to say, and my mother was all in.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah, I have spent a lot of time watching QVC
in my life. It was like, I don't really know
how this started, but like you know, when you're in
college and you and your friends are getting stoned and
maybe you have a specific thing that you watched for
a laugh. Ours was QVC and Home Shopping Network. I
don't know why, and it had this like like we
did it as a joke, but I actually did quite
(05:05):
enjoy the spectacle of it. There's a kind of like
grotesque kind of spectacle to watching somebody in an over
the top way, like try to sell you a pantsuit
at two am on live television. But here's the thing
that I wanted to talk about today. As much as
I enjoyed being stoned and watching QVC when I was
in college, it feels like scrolling TikTok these days feels
(05:27):
a lot more like scrolling a virtual version of QBC
or the Home Shopping Network. More over the top ads
than ever, and the whole thing feels a little bit
like dystopian. Annie. I know that you're not big on
scrolling TikTok, but Sam, you are on TikTok. Have you
noticed this? Have you seen more ads on the platform? Well?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Weirdly, like the things that I've seen are live videos
for shops, which really threw me Offcach, I don't like
lives anyway. I'm like, I don't want to do this
because oftentimes lives, Annie, are just like people sitting. I
stumbled onto a gamer who pretending to sleep apparently for
like an hour to get likes, Like that's the way
(06:07):
they have to wake him up, And these like awards
and such gives them actual money. And I didn't know
that I was like, why is he pretending to sleep?
I am so confused. But on top of that, so
the lives already like give me the ick because it
feels odd because I don't choose. It's not people you follow,
it's just for your for your feed essentially. And so
(06:29):
when I come into shops, I'm even more confused because
at the bottom it has like twenty percent off, thirty
percent off, and then you accidentally click the button. Then
you can't get out because it takes you to three
different sites, and you're like, what the hell am I in?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
What did I just do?
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yes? I also don't really like lives like I love
to consume content on TikTok from people I don't follow,
but something about the lives I immediately am like, no,
it's usually sometimes split screen or people are arguing about
something like I just don't like it, don't want to
see it, need it. What I like about TikTok is
(07:02):
that it's a platform that seems like it's full of
regular people telling like a funny or engaging story, compared
to a platform like Instagram that to me has always
felt like a polished, you know, influencer setting up an
unattainable or aspirational life thing, right, But on TikTok, now,
those engaging regular people are now like selling you something.
You know, when you scroll you get regular you know,
(07:25):
polished professional TikTok ads and tiktoks that look like normal videos,
but they say eligible for commission on the bottom, where
it's like not exactly an ad ad. But the person
who is talking to you like they're your friend does
happen to like be telling you about a product they
want you to buy and that they get a cut
of if you do TikTok or Grace Purcell actually described
(07:45):
it really well. She said that TikTok is feeling like
Shean and Ali Express had a baby too, like fast
fashion retailers that y'all might be familiar with.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
All right, so I do have a question and you
might not know the answer to those because I've seen
a lot of the four eligible but it's on things
that are either older like have been like I might
not have crossed it earlier, and then you click on
the date and like, oh it was a month ago,
to things that are just fan cam videos. So I
am on a lot of K pop TikTok don't judge
(08:16):
or k drama TikTok and they're not really eligible to
sell anything. It's just individuals who like to pull show
portions of like clips of a show or clips of
a performance.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And says eligible. I'm like, wait, do they.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Choose to put that on there? Or is that just
Tiktoks like, Hey, I'm gonna put this on there.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Great question. I'm not one hundred percent sure. So if
anybody listening is like, that's not cracked, let me know.
My understanding is that in order to be eligible for
TikTok's Affiliate creator program, you a creator has to have
five thousand or more followers. And so I think that
when it says eligible for commission, I think that that
is TikTok's way of saying, hey, this person it's like
(08:55):
a bad thing, Like, hey, this person has met the
requirements in order to be able to be part of
TikTok's affiliate program. That's what I think. Oh, don't one
hundred percent quote me on.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
That, yeah, because that the scares me and makes me
like I don't want to buy anything from you.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
You get away from me immediately run.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Well, that's kind of the thing that I that I
want to talk about today is that I feel like
something about the experience of being on TikTok which previously
had been this platform to like consume, whether it's your
K pop fan cams or whatever, now having everything feel
like kind of spammy just feels kind of sus like,
it just feels scammy. It feels weird, and I don't
(09:36):
know that it's really lending itself to an experience. It
feels like a place where you would want to enter
your financial information for instance, you.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Know, right, I think a lot of it feels like
I'm being like, like you said, I feel like I'm
being scammed, which I'm already like very overly cautious of
because it's constant as it is, whether it's misinformation from
some things, because we know a lot of things are
happening TikTok uh in Instagram and Twitter, all the things
(10:02):
that I've decided to be similar things to show the
stories or the whatever whatnot, and a lot of activists
and people who have been censored are able to come
on to there, to be able to do a lot
more content. But it makes me worry that I'm like,
is this all a lie? And is this for money?
Because I know, I don't if you're gonna talk about
this in a minute. The STC just went after several
(10:23):
creators for not doing enough to show that they are sponsored.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yet this is something that I could talk about all day.
I will say this that, like I think a lot
of creators and also platforms have been skirting lines around
what is and it's not sponsored content. By law, if
something is an AD, you have to it has to
be clear. It doesn't matter if you're on social media
or not. And so I remember seeing that those influencers
(10:50):
had gotten popp by the FTC for not disclosing that
something is an AD. You see influencers doing all kinds
of tricks where they make the sponsored or hashtag ad
so tiny you can see it. Maybe they put it
on the on the almost Instagram story, they hide it
behind something, all kinds of tricks. But let me tell you,
if you are someone who is intending to be an
influencer or intending to make content that is sponsored, don't
(11:13):
piss off the FDC. It's not worth it.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
It's not a good idea. That's about the professionals.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yes, and we've we've had to have meetings about this,
Like I am terrified of it. I'm like, I will
say like fifteen times, like just.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
So a ad like going back to because more and
more I am seeing creators that I've trusted or I
follow having the commission being an AD for something and
being confused because it feels like a normal video that
I usually would watch with them with all of a
(11:50):
sudden insert of something and I'm like, wait, did I
just watch an AD? And it like like it's it's
odd how often it's happening. And I feel like there's
definitely a pointed like black Friend, as well as holidays
deals coming up, all of these and I get enough
of that with like Amazon exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
And I guess that's my thing. I think that TikTok
is unique as a shopping platform in terms of being
what they call a social shopping platform, which is like
a mix of social media content that is user generated
and also e commerce shopping ability. I think that exactly
what you said, like there is something about TikTok that
(12:30):
has primed me to think when I am scrolling that platform,
I am just in getting content from engaging people, when
that content is actually an AD, when that content is
actually trying to sell me something something about it happening
on a platform that I just have normalized, is like
where I get by my funny content or whatever. Just
doesn't it just doesn't. I don't know. It just feels
really strange. And I think that again, when I'm on
(12:53):
Instagram scrolling, I'm a pretty good sense that, like I
am getting content from in for people who are really
polished and pretty. I feel like on TikTok there is
something that is harder for me to resist. Right on Instagram,
it's like they're serving up ads for this aspirational version
of the person I want to be, right, polished and
(13:14):
pretty and effortless. On TikTok, they are speaking to the
person that I actually am, which is like lazy and
easily entertained by novelty, right, and so like something about
it being a more authentic space just also makes it
a space where it's like you're more poised to, if
you're me, pull the trigger on stuff that you maybe
don't even need.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
And this was a recent development, right, Like the things
that you're speaking to, the things you're seeing, that's kind
of a new thing on TikTok.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Correct, absolutely, So what's going on is that this is
the rollout of TikTok Shop. TikTok's affiliate creator program that
was officially rolled out in September after months of testing.
How it works is, as I said, creators that have
more than five thousand followers can get a cut of
whatever they sell on the platf TikTok takes a five
percent cut as well. So the rollout for this was
like not great in some of the ways we'll talk
(14:06):
about on this episode. But with Black Friday coming up,
TikTok is really kind of seeing this as a big
way to test the platform not just to be a
social app, but to be a social shopping app with
the potential to rival other e commerce big platforms like
your Amazon's, your Sheian's. Things like that Black Friday officially
rolled out on TikTok last month. Whirired. Actually, that are
(14:28):
really great breakdown of how it works. You might see
stuff on TikTok for Black Friday that is like suspiciously
low price, or like, how does this make sense that
this is so cheap? Well, that's because TikTok is kind
of subsidizing these suspiciously low prices on this gamble that
they're betting that social shopping is going to be the
next big thing. So the app sellers can pick items
(14:50):
to be discounted on their shops and then create their
own markdowns, which are then further subsidized by TikTok's discounts.
Kind of like how when Uber first came out, ubers
were like really cheap. You could get where you were
going for like eight dollars, and that was because Uber
the company was subsidizing the cost and like operating at
a pretty big loss in order to get us like
all hooks to use an Uber. And now that same
(15:12):
ride probably is thirty dollars or more because Uber is
no longer subsidizing the cost to get us all hooked.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
We're all hooked now, right, And so yeah, so that's
been happening. You're s going through TikTok, as you said,
and you're not used to this kind of like having
this authentic content and then ads. So you were talking
about that of how it's just kind of been jarring
and hard for you to get sus out more.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
What's an AD and what's not?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Can you talk about that and why this is something
that we should be talking about totally.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So I think, like you said, like there's just something
about this experience on TikTok that is psychologically different. You
go to Amazon out of utility. Right when I need
something on Amazon, I pull up the app, or I
type in Amazon dot common to the browser, and I
search what it is that I need, I buy it,
and I'm done. On TikTok, it does feel more like
a QVC because you're just scrolling content. So some of
(16:10):
it is adds, some of it is non ad content.
But I think that having it be this experience where
it's like it's just stuff being served to you at
least makes me a lot more eager to buy, Like
I find myself buying things that I just fully do
not need because of that scroll where I'm in the
mindset that I'm just looking at content. I'm not necessarily
trying to go shopping right now. And here's why I
(16:30):
think that people should care and why this is actually
really important. Everybody is always talking about how powerful TikTok's
algorithm is, right, it feels like it can really suss
out a lot about you, your needs, your insecurities, how
you live your life, all of that. So when you
add in that hyper targeted feel to shopping, it can
feel like it creates the conditions for folks to just
(16:52):
buy bye bye without really thinking right. Changes to the
way that we shop digitally that reduce what they call
friction just make it really easy, easier than ever to
just click buy on something you might not even really want.
And as we're all thinking about doing our holiday shopping,
we should really also be having critical conversations about the
way that shopping is showing up in our lives on
(17:12):
social media platforms and who all of those changes really benefit,
because I would argue is not benefiting us the person
who is like just trying to look at TikTok content
without being surfaced up as every third TikTok.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
And one of the big questions as I'm looking at this,
because they have added I feel like so many different
ways to shop, like we have that now the targeted
Hey we have a sale, you should go this where
the shop to people who are influencers saying I found
this hack, go to this place. Or the one that
drives me crazy is the Amazon Finds or Amazon Deals
(17:56):
of the Day and then you go to their link
and it has it on their link and you go
through their site and they get a cost of money.
There's so many different things like that, where it feels
like it's just a consumer mechanism now exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
So, I did an interview with Pretty Critical. She's a
TikTok content creator who uses her platform to really have
frank conversations about shopping and financial, health and wellness and
beauty and consumerism. And she basically said the whole thing
right that, like it feels like a cycle. There's just
so many different things on the platform that are telling
you bye bye, bye bye bye, that it really normalizes
(18:32):
consumption without critical thought. It makes it seem like it
is totally normal to have an entire display of Stanley
water tumblers of every different color of the rainbow when
you cannot possibly use all of them. It makes you
think like, hey, this is normal. Everybody is doing this.
And another thing that she pointed out in our interview,
which you could listen to on my podcast, There Are
No Girls on the Internet, is that you don't necessarily
(18:55):
know the financial situation of either of the people that
you're seeing on tikto and so like this TikTok creator
might be making content that feels really authentic that makes
you think like, oh, we're really similar, we're living similar
kinds of lives, but you don't know that to be true.
She might have a trust fund, she might have a
rich partner, right like, she might be in a totally
different financial situation than you and be financially incentivized through
(19:19):
making money in getting you to feel the connection to
be like, yeah, I have a million water tumblers. You
can too, That's a totally normal thing to do. And
so I think all of that leads to folks feeling
more and more like these platforms are just I don't know,
dystopian digital malls rather than platforms to really have conversation
(19:39):
and connection and learn things. Amanda Mall is this journalist
at The Atlantic who has been doing a lot of
great coverage about how we shop online. I'll be citing
a few of her pieces in this conversation, but in
her piece, It's too easy to buy stuff you don't want,
she points out that retailers online have really made some
intentional changes to get us to do exactly what you
just said, Samanthah, but just really easily click by. Amanda writes,
(20:04):
over time those changes have become really commonplace, Like you
don't have to type in a password or your credit
card information every single time you shop online. Like, I
was really surprised when I bought something on TikTok. I
bought one thing on TikTok shop once when I want
to buy something else, I was really surprised that they
just saved all of my information and it was just like, oh,
you want to buy something else, well, all you got
(20:25):
to do is click here, one click right. I was like, Oh,
I don't think they asked for my permission to do this,
that I remember. I don't think like I told them
to do this. It was a little sus to me
how easy the platform had made it by saving all
of my information. And so retailers really refer to this
as friction. Friction is anything that might present a barrier
(20:46):
between you actually making that purchase. You know, I can't
tell you how many times I click buy on something
only to leave it in my online cart and then
like just abandon it for whatever reason. Is that something
that you've ever done.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
All the time. I love that when I go though
it first and foremost. At one point, TikTok people so
were like, hey, this is a good way to stop
stop spending money. Think about it. Just keep it in
your in your car for a little while, and then
if you still need it or think about it a
week later, come back to it, like if you if
you wait, you might find out that you.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Actually don't need it.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
So I did this because I am easily influenced, apparently
by TikTok, And yes, I leave things for a year
until is like unavailable, and then I'm like, I guess I.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Didn't need that.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Well, I once after I broke up with my ex, Oh,
I used to put I would I would lie awake
at night and I couldn't sleep, and I would put
these cookies in my cart bridge. I would put this
dozen cookies in my cart from this place in Atlanta
that delivers hot cookies all night. And one time I
(21:55):
finally would like, I left them there, left them there.
One time I finally I was like, all right, I'm
going to do it. This woman shows up and she
looks like, oh, you didn't mean to order this many cookies,
because all the times I had put the cookies in
the cart they were so I spent seventy five dollars
(22:17):
cookies for one person.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
What'd you do with those cookies?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Though?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
I took them outside and then destroyed them with a
baseball bat because I was a really dramatic part of.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
My life, the part of the breakup that gets dramatic.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
It was raining outside. Yeah, it was the whole thing.
I didn't eat any of the cookies.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Which made that's tragic to me, and I felt offended
by that not eating the cookie, at least one one
warm cookie. I would eat the MOOKI yeah, and crying them.
That's obviously a part of that. But I will say
I think another part that bothers me about this new
incentive and new ideal is that one of the reasons
I did like and I did start shopping with TikTok
(22:58):
was that you could find independent stores, small shops, small
shops created by marginalized people, and you kind of had
a better Maybe I was being tricked, I don't know,
but a better understanding of where these products were coming
from and who it was benefiting. I've done Christmas presents
through that. I think I bought a shirt from Mahogany
(23:20):
t Shirts, which has you know, I loved her company
and I love what she represented, and I really wanted
to do that. So I found her on TikTok and
I loved everything about that. Found other shops similar to
that that I'm like, I want to support this creator,
and now it's kind of feeling like it's getting toppled
by these other bigger content and bigger corporations.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
That's exactly what I have seen. I want to be
clear that it is not all bad. Wire reports that
small businesses can really see a boost from social selling
on TikTok, like shops can see a flood of interest
on their products that they take off or go viral
on TikTok. So I want to be clear that I'm
not trying to demonize small businesses. I think that small
businesses and artisans should be able to have platforms. But
(24:01):
because of the way that TikTok shop has been rolled out,
you have small business and like artisan goods also alongside
goods made by like big box retailers whose names you
would recognize, like I think pac Son is on there,
Zara is on there. Then you have like basically mass
produced junk, like crap that is going to break immediately.
(24:24):
You have all of that vying on the same platform.
And so I think it's great the idea that small
businesses or small artists or artisans can go viral or
really you know, have a boost in sales and visibility
by using a platform. I don't know that it's necessarily
fair to have those small creators in small shops competing
with Zara and pac Son and then also competing with
(24:46):
like name unknown mass produced item that costs a nickel
to make or something like. I almost feel like it
doesn't necessarily create fair conditions for those small businesses and
artisans to thrive.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Right, And I think one of the things that I'm
hearing through this conversation as someone who doesn't use TikTok
that much, is that this sounds like a lot of
other things that I have used. Though It's like the
idea of making it easier to pay, of storing your
payment information, of removing this friction, as you say, removing
(25:21):
these barriers, of offering these deals.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It's almost.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Kind of heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
It feels like it's kind of following these other patterns
but perfecting on it, or like making it more difficult.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yes, And so I guess that's one of the things
that I really want to point out in this episode
is that we should just be aware of how all
of these changes and tweaks incentivize us to buy, makes
it seamless to do so, and benefits platforms and retailers.
So if you have a little bit of a shopping problem,
which if you do, you should definitely talk to somebody
(25:56):
about that. But like you are, not just it's not
just happens dance. All of these digital changes make it
very very easy to buy, even when you don't want
the thing. Amanda Mall writes, a handful of small changes
to the mechanics of online shopping had begun to accumulate
into something meaningful. Advertisers were amassing stores of personal data
with which to tailor they're to ad targeting retailers were
(26:19):
offering free shipping and free returns on anything. Buy now,
decide later. Browsers and operating systems were urging users to
save login credentials and financial details with their software. The
expanded use of payment shortcuts like Apple Pay and Shopify
shop pay were circumventing the need to create a new
account or log into an old one. Buy now, pay
later services including Klarna and a firm were beginning to
(26:40):
pop up at more retailers to soften the blow of spending.
In the intervening five years, these changes have become the
default infrastructure of online shopping, maximizing convenience over all else
in an effort to make buying things as effortless as possible,
as retailers are all too eager to tell everyone, buying
things online has never been so simple, so seamless, so easy,
(27:00):
so easy in fact, that we might all be better
off with a few more speed bumps. And I mean
it sounds counterfintuitive, but I agree ease and convenience is great.
Like I am not above being taken in by convenience,
but when it comes to technology, convenience always comes at
a cost. And so the cost is that like maybe
(27:21):
we're all buying more junk than we actually mean to
buy because it is so easy and that ease. It
may seem convenient to us, but actually we're losing out,
and it's platforms and retailers who are benefiting.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of a joke that
a lot of us have said. That started with in
my opinion, Amazon, but it was like, to get the
free shipping, I need to spend a little bit more
on something else. But ultimately, are you saving more money
if you're buying something you didn't really want or need?
Just to get the free shipping. It's just like they've
(27:54):
convinced us, Oh, this is a deal though, this is
a deal.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Oh my god, And it's so effective. Like the psychology
of how we spend is fascinating, like and we've all
felt it where you're like, oh, well, like when you
put here in DC, we're having a big conversation about
tipping and like how much you should tip if they
do an automatic tip whatever, And there's something about it,
like if you went to a restaurant and the hamburger
(28:19):
was ten dollars and you were like, okay, that's fine,
and then at the end of the meal it's like,
oh well, a twenty five percent service fee that's mandatory.
You're like, whoa, what is this? What is this like
aftermarket fee that I did not know about the psychology
of that is different than if the price of that
hamburger was twenty five percent. More like the way that
our brains work around prices and what's too high and
(28:41):
what's like you know, what is like a ceiling you
will not cross. It's so fascinating, but we've all experienced it, right,
and so part of me can't even blame the retailers
for taking advantage of these these quirks to our psychology.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, it is fascinating because it's I think it's like
you feel when you feel like you're getting scammed as
you say, or or you're getting the deal, Like are
you coming out on top of this thing? Are you
coming out on bottom when all of it's kind of
capitalism that is screwing us all over exactly.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's like if there was like a tagline to every
piece of content I make is that it's capitalism's fault,
Like that's the real the real enemy here. And something
else to note is that kind of like what you
were talking about, Samantha of you know, are you getting
something that is made lovingly by an artisan? Are you
getting like a piece of crap that's going to fall apart?
(29:39):
Some of the stuff that you can buy on TikTok
shop is not on the level right, Like this is
really speaking to when they first rolled out. I think
that they've kind of maybe normalized some of this now,
But when TikTok Shop first rolled out, the platform just
felt like you were getting served up ads for junk essentially.
Amanda mall That and a journalist I talked about earlier
(30:02):
She talked about TikTok spokesperson who said that their algorithm
plus human moderation was supposed to weed out bad products,
like if a product didn't match the item that was shipped,
or if like something was wrong with it. It used a
different image that a human plus an algorithm was supposed
to weed that out, but that sometimes it just didn't
work that effectively. Amanda writes, sometimes problems go unnoticed until
(30:25):
people start reporting issues, like the listing will use stock
images that don't depict the products they're actually selling, omit
important details on sizing or material or composition, or offer
counterfeit and potentially unsafe products. Even legitimate listings from scrupulous
sellers can make for a confusing or scammy feeling shopping
experience because sellers create a lot of duplicate listings for
(30:46):
the same products. That's especially common on TikTok, where sellers
rush to meet demand for the handful of products that
have captivated the platform at any particular moment, And I
think that's like why it can feel so scammy. When
I was doing my recent for the episode I did
with that influencer Pretty Critical, numerous people I talked to
said that they would never buy anything on TikTok. They
would never put their financial information into TikTok because something
(31:10):
about it just made it seem like you were gonna
get scammed if you did.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
I mean, we definitely had money of stories.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Do you remember the pink sauce? Lady?
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Oh, the pink ye'all? I tried the pink sauce. I
did not. I did not buy on TikTok. I bought
it omar. I wouldn't buy a food product on TikTok,
although more on that later. But did anyone try it?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I don't know what this is.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Pink food weirds me on anyway like that, But I'm like, no,
I'm good. Yeah, you were more adventurous.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Yeah, pink sauce was this condiment that I just got
a random lady on TikTok was making in her house
and it ret viral. You could buy it on TikTok.
It was bright pink. But then sometimes people would buy
it and they were like, oh, it was more like brown.
Like it was like there was clearly not a lot
of like no, because this is yeah, not a lot
of consistency happening, and people were like, oh, don't. Like
(32:04):
people would get the bottles and they would be like,
it's like you know when a bottle, like something is
going wrong with the product, and the bottle was like inflated,
people would be like, Oh, something's up with this. But
it was actually ended up being a situation where because
it went so viral, I think, like a legitimate food
retailer bought it and that's why I was able to
like buy a legitimate bottle of it in walmartket.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
Yeah, for the longest time, she had to stop production
because she got FDA coming on to her and they're like,
is this even tested? And like she would not talk
about what the ingredients were. There was milk involved and
it wasn't being like ice or anything. When it was
sent down and everybody was like okay, and everybody's bottle
had different colors.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Oh my god, I this is like such an aside.
I remember when that was happening. She went on TikTok
Live and she was like, people are making fun of
my pink sauce of this that FDA approved. I don't
make medicine. I don't make a drug. Why would it
have to be FDA approved? And it was like, honey,
the first fic food though literally get it.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Okay, okay, you get people you're screwed. There's a lot
of building but yeah, like stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
I know, there was a big conversation like who is
actually testing these things?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Who can say?
Speaker 4 (33:17):
And like because she was getting big endorsements from people
like this is tasty, from people who had millions of
followers because she would just send them out for free,
and people were like the pickle lady. There's a pickled
person too who did the same thing. It was a
similar situation that everybody and then everybody had a backtrack
and then TikTok had a kind of backtrack and be
like okay, okay, calm down, everybody.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
So this actually that's actually a good segue into another
issue with like TikTok shop feeling a little bit scammy
is the issue of like what happens when a product
on there is not just a dupe or like a
counterfeit product, but it's actually harmful because some of the
stuff that you get on TikTok, particularly stuff that you're consuming,
could be harmful if it's not actually being regulated. So
(34:01):
TikTok says that they ban the advertising and sale of
all counterfeit products quote. By ensuring the safety and authenticity
of products sold on our platform, we create a positive
shopping experience that users can have confidence in their policy says. However,
a guardian of report back in April suggests that these
rules were not being effectively enforced, with illicit beauty products
(34:21):
routinely being promoted to users via their content feeds and
search results. TikTok again takes a cut, so that means
that the platform was effectively profiting off of the sale
of illegal and or counterfeit goods. And so again it's
not just that this is like can be scammy, or
can be like counterfeit or whatever. It can be harmful.
TikTok bans the sale of prescription only medicines such as
(34:43):
acne skin cream or skin whitening creams that contain certain
band ingredients. But if you're on skincare TikTok, when the
skin product tretton Noen was taking off on the platform,
which you need a prescription for, you could buy it
easily on TikTok shop. So there's a reason and why
that skincare product is prescription only. It can lead to
interactions with other medications and calls fetal abnormalities have taken
(35:07):
while you're pregnant, and so it is recommended that you
use it under a doctor supervision. But if you're just
buying it on TikTok, you're obviously not using it under
a doctor supervision. The Guardian actually spoke to doctor Jane
Ravenscroft of the British Association of Dermatologists, who said that
the sale of illicit skincare creams was a major concern
and a major public health risk. She says, unfortunately, people
(35:29):
selling these prescription products illegally are preying on people's insecurities
and naivete. Social media adds fuel to this fire. TikTok
did eventually block searches for trettonoen and removed listings from
third party vendors that referred to that ingredient after The
Guardian published this report. But yeah, it's not just that
these products can be scammy or spammy or just counterfeit
(35:52):
or not at the level they could hurt you, like
if you take the medication the wrong way. It can
mess you up. If you eat something that has not
been FDA approved and it's a weird color and it's
like a dairy product that has not been kept cold,
you can get really sick. Like this is not a game,
it's serious, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
And I think one thing about this that again I
find interesting about the Human Psyche is that I once
tried to get desperately. I wanted these contacts for cosplay.
They're illegal in the US, and I was like, but
I can get them, though, and I could. I found
a way I could buy them. But you know, this
should have been a part of my mind that was
(36:41):
like wait though, and I never used them. But I think,
like it's a mistake to think that people who are
buying these things are stupid or they're not intelligent.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I think it's a mistake.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
If it's available and easy to buy, I totally understand it.
Like I totally get it, especially if you're seeing people
that you follow maybe respect relate to using a product
and you're like, okay, well they are using it, They're fine,
I'll use it too. So I think that's the key
thing to say.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Oh, I'm so glad you added that. I Yeah, Like,
I don't think that anybody who is buying things and
like diligently searching for them to buy them, even if
they're not like approved or whatever. If they're legal illegal here.
I don't think it's on them, It is on the platform. Like,
I don't think that a platform should be then making
money from that from that they don't thin they should
(37:36):
get it. I don't think that a platform should get
a cut from someone who has like made the decision
to seek out something that maybe is not legal here
for whatever reason. Right, Like, there's I'm big into sunscreens.
There's all kinds of sunscreens that I like to use
that you can't just go into cvs in the United
States and buy, right, But Like, I think it's different
when a platform, a private company is taking a cut
(37:58):
of that illegal transaction. Right, Like, There's been a whole,
a whole situation of like parents who unfortunately lost their
kids because their kids brought illegal drugs on platforms like
TikTok or Snapchat, which apparently is like not really that difficult.
Imagine then if TikTok or Snapchat was also taking a
cut of that sale, right, Like, that wouldn't be acceptable.
(38:21):
And I think, I mean it's really an issue of
like I don't blame the individual who's making that choice,
but I don't think that platform should be financially benefiting
from it because then it's incentivized absolutely.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
So, as you said, this is a pretty new thing
and uh TikTok shop and it's been a little bit
of a rough rollout. What do you think is in
the future for it? Is it here to stay?
Speaker 3 (38:45):
This is a great question. I guess the answer I
will give is maybe tbd. We will see. I think
it kind of depends on how Black Friday goes for TikTok.
This kind of shopping functionality is much more common in China,
where TikTok is based with brands like Timu, and I
think that TikTok is kind of betting that will take
off here too. It's a lot less like Amazon. Like
(39:06):
when I first started researching this, I was like, Oh,
they're trying to be like Amazon with content. It's more
like Sheian with content, right, So, like, imagine if like Amazon,
Shean and TikTok all merged into one super app where
you consumed content and also made content and also shopped.
Social and live shopping is huge across Asia. Wired reports
(39:28):
that in China alone, live shopping is expected to drive
nearly twenty percent of online shopping this year. And I
think that it's when when Elon Musk decided that he
was going to try to change the name of Twitter
to X. I think that he was trying to turn
X into like a super app where you are having
making social content, talking to people, but also banking, also
(39:48):
watching video, right, Like, I don't know if that is
going to really take off in the United States. Like
I think it's a bit of a cultural shift to
that that sort of thing. Facebook and in both tried
to do live shopping functionality and then later phase them out,
so it didn't work for them. And I just think
that maybe we're not really I don't know, I don't
know if we are really down to shop that way
(40:11):
in the United States. Like, look at Amazon when I shop. Unfortunately,
I do use Amazon. I know. I like to buy
my groceries from Whole Foods when I can, which Amazon owns.
I use One Medical as my healthcare provider. Amazon owns
that too. Here in DC, my local newspaper is the
Washington Post. Well, guess who owns that Amazon. I'm not
(40:31):
thrilled about this, and I don't think that most people
are thrilled with the idea of one place being where
they get a lot of their needs met. And I
think that TikTok is kind of betting that this is
just the inevitable future of the Internet and social media
and commerce, and that we're all going to get used
to it. I saw a report that TikTok is actually
(40:51):
planning on selling and delivering groceries and the United States soon.
I haven't been able to verify that, but I did
see a report indicating that it might sound hard to believe,
but in twenty twenty two, TikTok did announce that people
could now purchase fresh and frozen food directly from TikTok
shop in the UK. So it's not that far fetched
that they would then be like, well, we want to
(41:13):
be where you make contact, where you consume content, where
you get your groce fees, where you buy your novelty goods, everything.
And I think that's kind of my point in bringing
this to you all today, is that, like you know,
with technology like this, it may start out as convenient,
but convenience always comes at a cost when it comes
to technology. If one tech company becomes the end all
(41:34):
be all of how we consume everything, how we buy everything,
we could see a dynamic where they can really do
whatever they want because what are we going to do?
Go elsewhere their everything?
Speaker 1 (41:43):
You know, Amazon's trying to sell cars.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Oh you rightly so much? At what point is it
like we don't need to get everything from you? Like
fair if I want to get a car, I can like,
are you gonna sell houses? Like what's next?
Speaker 1 (41:58):
What is happening? Yeah? I will.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
I find it interesting that TikTok has got done this
because again we've talked about the algorithm, and so when
you click on something for I've done this on Facebook.
This is where I'm like, I feel like a boomer
or I've accidentally clicked on a link of advertising and
then then from then on I just kept getting that
one advertising. So I'm thinking like with TikTok being the
(42:20):
way their algorithm is is kind of similar to that word.
They just get almost obsessive, like U slaw. This is
one thing I'm going to show you twenty times. This
is the one thing. So how does that how that's
going to kind of break TikTok in my head because
that's not what like you want the algorithm, but not
that very specific algorithm.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Yeah, I don't want to be stalked by one pair
of boots that I happen to click on once that
I might not even want, Like that's just not the
experience that I want for my digital ecosystem. It's like
I just I just think that we deserve better, Like
I think that, you know. It makes me feel a
bit sad, like the end all be all of the
(43:03):
promise of technology is like how can we get people
to click on stuff and sell them things? Like I
want to have digital media platforms where I'm learning things,
where I'm experiencing things, where I'm having community. And it
just makes me sad that, like it seems like the
end all be all is just like how can we
sell more junk? I hate that right right?
Speaker 4 (43:24):
And then talking about the fact that TikTok was originally
for younger generations, younger kids, and how easy it is
to buy this could be a parent's worst nightmare.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Oh yes, NBC actually did a report all about how
minors like young people are selling products on TikTok shop,
even though that is against TikTok's policies. All they have
to do is lie about their age. But like, just imagine,
like me a grown woman getting sold a pair of
leggings by like a sixteen year old in between their classes.
(43:54):
It is just dystopian. It's just very weird.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
That makes me said, yeah, I was gonna say dystopian too,
because it feels like not only are they trying to
all of these tech companies are trying to take over
like every avenue of our lives. It's hard to imagine
the time before something like Amazon for me, But it's
also they want you to spend all of your time there,
all of your time consuming the content, buying the things,
(44:20):
and it's just like a cycle where you're trapped and
all of your time is right there.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yes, and that is exactly the dynamic that I want
for all of us to break free from. Like we
already give these platforms so much, they already take so
much from us. They don't have to take everything. And
I guess I worry that we're going to get to
a place where this is going to be more normalized
that like they just they want all of your time
and all of your money and all of your energy,
(44:47):
and I don't think we should give it to them.
So this holiday, I really want us to make smart
choices about how and what and why we buy. You know,
if you're finding yourself buying stuff that you don't need
on social media. Ask some question, like do you really
need that item? Put it in your cart and see
how that feels for a while. Don't click buy right away.
Are you clicking this because it's easy, because you're bored,
(45:07):
because it's like a dopamine hit, Like, really, ask some
questions about why it is you're buying things. Oh and
if you really hate TikTok shop and you don't want
to see any more of those eligible for commission videos,
you can actually turn it off. If you go to
your profile on TikTok, open the menu in the top right,
hit settings and Privacy content preferences, filter video keywords, and
(45:28):
then add hashtag TikTok shop. You will not have to
see those ads anymore. My holiday gift from me to you.
You're welcome, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I need this.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I love that. And I actually was thinking about this.
I think it'd be interesting to come back after this
has been around for a little bit longer. Because you
also did the episode bridget on de influencing on TikTok,
so I feel likek the there's an interesting intersection there
of like that was happening where people were saying, okay,
let's get de influenced to now you have TikTok shop,
(46:03):
So what does that look like?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
That's such an interesting question. I'm so curious to see because,
like I do think that people want like more authentic
online experiences that are not just like bye bye bye.
And I think that's why we saw deinfluencing pop up
as a trend. So how will that bump up alongside
TikTok shop taking off?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
We will see yes, yes, well.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Thank you so much as always Bridget for taking the
time for breaking this down for us. We love to
have you. Hopefully we'll have you back for some scream
stuff along with the tech content that we love.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3 (46:42):
You can find me at my podcast there are no
girls on the Internet. You can find me on Instagram
at Bridget Marie and DC or on Twitter at Bridget Marie.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Thank you again so much, and listeners, if you would
like to contact us you can. You can find us
email us at Stephania mom stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter, a podcasts, or on
Instagram and TikTok at stuff. One never told you we
have a book that you can get wherever you get
your books. We have a tea public score. Thanks as
always too, our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
(47:11):
and our contributor Joey.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You
is a protection by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
my heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
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