April 22, 2026 • 35 mins
The Bible's Deborah has a much-debated legacy. A Judge, a prophetess, and a warrior, her story is both lauded and condemned. We shine a light on her story.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuffh
I ever told your production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to another episode. We're just kind of going down
a biblical route. I feel like a little bit. Anie
did a great episode recently on Mary Magdalene, and we
briefly mentioned another woman from the Bible, and there was
some interest in hearing more about her, Deborah, the only
(00:40):
judge in the Hebrew Bible. So we wanted to take
a moment to kind of talk about her. But I
need to put this caveat. It's a shorter episode because
there's not really much depth, Like we've seen a little
bit of historical context. There's a lot of arguments around her,
much like any other women. Figure. I feel like that
(01:01):
become fairly controversial in this note. I am going to
also put a lot of opinions and feelings in this,
so go ahead with that as a caveat as well.
I'm going to try not to get too excited because
I get extra squeaky when I do. So I when
we roll it back, y'all the pollen it's awful.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, it's bad. It's not joking around. I washed my
car and then I came back out gone already.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I mean, I feel like it's a personal attack at
this point, and I'm fully offended by what is happening.
And we've also talked about how climate change has been
part of this reason slash, how the way that we
have badly set up Oh yeah, our areas has caused
(01:55):
even more problems with pollen. So but anyway, done with that.
But just obviously I'm not getting any better, So this
just be my own new voice.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Enjoy karaoke nightes, give me funds.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I think I might have a Julie Andrew's problem, not
that I ever sing like her, but like not being
able to sing for real, for real anymore. I can't
hit any notes anymore.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
That is sad.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
My days of singing Natalie and Brookleia maybe over.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Oh no, I don't say that anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Back to talking about Deborah. So she is mentioned in
two chapters in the Book of Judges, which follows the
stories of the twelve appointed judges who are in charge
in leading the Israelites. So it's interesting to talk about
these types of subjects at this time in this climate
political world, climate of things that are happening, because it's
(02:51):
obviously a bigger conversation about like ownership of land and
what is promised and what is promised and who is
doing what. But we're not talking about that. We're talking
about the historical context slash not fantasy contexts. No, I
don't know how to put this because I will say,
in this dive of trying to figure out the Bible,
(03:13):
and I think everyone kind of understands this a little bit,
who have maybe separated themselves away from religion, but to
try to figure out how factual and how accurate is
the Bible, And according to my search, no one really
talks about it and or is not allowed on the
(03:34):
internets because my search for the first five six pages
and read throughs of articles upon articles are all from
religious accounts. So I'm sorry, that's really biased. So I
can't really use those as in context about whether or
not it's historically accurate. I will say there are biblical
(03:56):
archaeologists who have discovered battle areas and kingdoms and lands.
We know the Egyptians were real. We know that things
were built as the Egyptians of late and arras as
written in the Bible, so we know this context is real. Now,
with all of that, it's a little iffy because I
(04:16):
want Deborah to exist. I don't know what I mean.
I want her to be real. I want her to
be the leader that people didn't think existed. You know,
that could have been, but I don't know, we don't
actually know with all of that. Yes, she was one
of the twelve appointed judges. All of the other were men.
(04:37):
She was also the first one to be noted as
being a both prophetess and a judge. There are two
different things. There are apparently several other prophetess is in
the Bible and the Hebrew text that I don't know
are often credited as that within that timeframe, but that
are now seen as so, but not they were not judges.
(05:00):
So judges are very significant, called on by God to lead,
oftentimes in battle. So this is who they are. Again,
she was first noted as being a prophet is and
then rose to the leadership of being a judge of
the Israelis. It should be noted that Judges, I think
was written by Samuel, who was also a judge and prophet,
So no of that they are now. I thought there
(05:23):
was a whole other book, the Book of Deborah, but
that doesn't seem to be I apparently got that wrong
in my head that exists. There are other books written
about women, they think about women. Each of those women
are typically either women who have our wives or someone,
or who have assassinated someone, or who were raped and
(05:47):
used as an example.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Right, not great, not great.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
But Deborah was not one of those. I'm a little
sad that she wasn't. But again, she does have the
two chapters chapter four of Judges in chapter five. Now,
the breakdown of her two chapters has a lot of
debate about that in itself, such as why they were
written the way they were, because apparently the chapter five
is also considered the Song of Deborah because of the
(06:14):
way it's written, is a lot more poetic, a little
bit different. It takes on the account of both the
battle and victory of it all, and again it is
kind of traditional to have a song of something as
like the victory stance of a timeframe. Again, this is
supposedly supposed to be from her perspective, as if she
(06:35):
did write this, even though it was Samuel anyway. According
to so, if you've read through the Old Testament, you
may already be familiar with the constant struggles of the Israelites,
as they continue to face tribulations and trials which they
often fail, they fall for idols constantly, Like it's a constant.
(06:56):
I guess we could say that about any group of
people constantly fail and are punished pretty severely, including decades
of enslavement and being lost in the wilderness. Again, this
is kind of that narrative of like, oh, you're going
through bad times, this is your punishment, which would come
back to later be like that's seemingly wrong on a
(07:20):
different level, But I say, neither here nor there. Who
knows how we're going to be written decades centuries, centuries,
centuries from now. So Deborah was to be around twelve
nine BCE to eleven sixty nine BCE, so way back when,
way back when, for all the time, and according to studies,
(07:44):
Deborah was a leader who often advised under a palm tree,
like she was known as the palm judge things a
little bit. And one of those reasonings may have been
a theory is because she was a woman, she could
not be in a home or in an enclosed area
with men that she advised, so she would do so
(08:05):
out in public under a palm I was thinking, oh, yeah,
I guess that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I mean probably good for her protection too. Anyway, moving on,
and she wasn't noted to have like giant speeches or
like if you know anything about the story of Moses,
he often came down railed upon the people and be like,
you are sinning and these are the things that you
were gone wrong. He does massive speeches. Mm hmm, Carlton.
According to Charlton Heston, I don't know, not just kidding,
(08:41):
but like, and she was known to do that. She
just privately met with people and let people so it
was a little different for that, and she would give
a lot of advice. She definitely would be like God
told me this, we're doing these things, so you know
one of those things. The story goes during the time
of oppression from the Canaanite rule, and it was that
(09:01):
Deborah who rose up and became the voice of God.
So they were in twenty years of oppression enslavement from
the canaan knights, and she rose up saying it is
time for battle. We're going into battle. This is the beginning.
So she goes to she appoints Bayroc or Barack, who
she is appointed as the military leader to let him
(09:23):
know his time, we're going into battle, you were going
to have victory.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It was great, and only he's like, okay, cool, cool, cool,
I'll do this. However, I will only go if you
go with me to Deborah. So I will say, she
is the only judge who was not also a military leader.
And that is also because she is a woman like
that is noted. She could not be a military leader
(09:48):
for that reason. And in this level of understanding, she's like, okay, cool, cool, cool,
I'll go with you because you know this is what
I'll do. However, know that you will not have the
final victory. So in this whole battle, she lets him
know that he would win because God and the angels
were with him. So in this battle, there is this
conversation that people are seeing and witnessing this battle and
(10:12):
they say they can see angels fighting with them. Now,
this could be interpretation because there was an unusual storm
that happened that did give them a better advantage according
again to the Bible, and so maybe within that storm
they saw visions of angels. And I'm just theorizing here
on that one. He said again he would go, but
(10:34):
only if she went with him. And according to again
the research in Theologians and all the things that have
missed my search engine up because I am now once
again inundated with Christian information. It's saying that she again
was the only woman to be with them, not the
military leader. And so they go together. Yay, all right,
(10:58):
so we're going together with that Barrock was the chosen
one and does win. And again this kind of goes
back and forth of like why Barack did not want
to go by himself, why Barack really wanted Deborah to
go with him, all these things. I don't know if
he was already a military leader. It kind of sounds
like she had a vision of a person and it
(11:20):
was like it's you, and he's like okay, type of conversation,
which happens a lot when it comes to Faith's stories. Again,
Barrock did not have the privilege of the final victorious
moment of killing the Canaan a general Cesyria, but that
honor would be handed to a lowly woman, Jayu, who
was also from the tribes of Israel. However, she may
(11:44):
have been a tentmaker while her husband was a weapons maker,
so all of these things. But he was a weapons
maker for Seceyria. But if they were under enslavement, obviously
they had to do these things. Type of conversation with
that the song that Deborah goes on to talk about
how God assisted them in battle by bringing down rain
and storms again that were not usual for that season,
(12:06):
and how the mothers, specifically the mother of Ceceyria, would
look out at her window and lament in prayers and
hoping to see her son return from battle. Spoiler of
the lot Kei did and Seiria, who went to rest
in his tent with a nice bowl of milk, would
soon have a tentpole driven in his head thanks to jail. Now,
(12:31):
oh yeah, either way, there's a lot about Jaia I
think fantasy level. I'm not sure as it's written about,
like how one theory is that she was afraid as
an israel Israelite to be seen with Ceyria, and she
(12:52):
was there under not great circumstances and has visited him often,
and I say that theblicly visited, and so she wanted
to make sure to kill him and be like, hey,
are you looking for this man? I have him here
in this tent essentially, and so she did that for
that reason others goes that she was a hero for
(13:14):
Israel and knew what she was doing and plays an assassin.
There is some conversations about how many times she had
sex with Cesyria and whether or not she actually all
these There are these theories that I was like good God.
It's necessary. It wasn't obviously because it wasn't involved in
the scriptures. But it has been told outside of I
(13:38):
don't know how factual any of that is, or how
accurate it is into any biblical references that we don't see,
because obviously I cannot read Hebrew, so I will not people.
I cannot read Greek. I cannot give you those translations.
Once upon a time, when I thought I was going
to be a missionary, I really believed I would learn
these things and read the Bible in full of this context.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
So there's a.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Lot of theory about who she was. Within the Song
of deb Bro chapter five, this is how they write it.
Judges chapter five, verses twenty fourth or twenty six says
this extolled above women by jail, extolled above women in
the tent. He asked for water, she gave him milk.
She brought him cream in a lordly dish. She stretched
forth her hand to the nail, her right hand to
(14:33):
the workman's hammer, and she smeked s Sarah. She crushed
his head, She crashed through and transfixed his temples. So
very poetic for saying she killed them, she killed them good,
she killed them real hard.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Whoa.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And there are many of art depictions. Not know you've
seen any of the Renaissance paintings of this, like really
Bowld picture. She looks very voluptuous and this like like
obviously very wealthy, pompous man is laying on her lap.
Hmm yeah, yeah, yeah, and you see her with a
(15:12):
giant steak in her hand. And that's the picture that
we see. I will say, when I was talking about
how she had had sex with him so many times,
that's how they say she tired him out, quote unquote.
And it wasn't milk oh, that it was a metaphor.
I mean, I don't know why that's necessary, but you know,
I find that interesting that that has to be a
(15:32):
part of that text.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I we talked about that a little after the Mary
Magdalen episode. It does seem like why we got to
make this sexual all the time? Uh, why do we
gotta make this romantic all the time.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Maybe it really really they really not needed to like
and again, it could absolutely have something to do with
the fact that a woman should not wield that much power,
even though the punishment to a man was giving women victory,
which yes, we're going to come back to a little bit,
but would only be okay is if her only power
(16:06):
is sex cervitude.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
And that's not to say I don't know, you know,
historical distortion.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I know people.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Had some hang ups, not always, but sometimes hang ups
talking about sex.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
But I guess what I'm saying is maybe they're right.
But it does feel kind of like.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Hmm, right, it's convenient now, I will say again, because
I don't want to diminish the idea of Deborah in
jail in that they were significant parts of this story,
but it does feel like when it in context of
like so many conversations of like of women who have
(16:51):
done big things or giant things, like many people called
Deborah a warrior because she did go out in battle,
because a man wouldn't go by himself or as the
leader of himself, all of these different things, but like
at the same time to be seen as diminishing this
is not necessarily a story of power about women, but
more about lack of manliness of men.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Mm hmm, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It's kind of like, okay, it can't be one or
the other, like you know what I mean, right, But
all that to say is that she did do all
of that. She did help in the war, she ended
that war, and Deborah rightly gave her praise for that
in a very poetic manner. So going back to Deborah,
she is actually introduced as Deborah the wife of Lapidote,
(17:37):
which is not uncommon to be so and so's wife,
to be so and so's daughter, to be so and
so's mother, all these things, because lineage is obviously a
very big conversation if you I was just telling Annie
off Mike, on Mike, but off Mike that when we
were younger, my grandparents great grandparents would have all the
kids read the Christmas story. And I'm not talking about
(17:57):
like Mama and her kerchief thing. I'm talking about the
biblical reference to when Jesus was born in the manger,
and it starts off with this lineage, and it is
hard to read and as a twelve year old try
and figure out how to do that in King James version.
But one thing I can tell you is they do
(18:19):
love to talk about lineage, so having a connection, having
a family connection is not unusual. However, some have argued
that this title wasn't necessarily just about the domestic link
that she had, but maybe the other definition, So lapidote
actually means in Hebrew torches or fire or flames rather,
(18:40):
and so some people have taken this into a definition
of a woman of torches or a fiery woman, and
they're like, okay, maybe because they never really mention him. Again,
they never mentioned a husband at any point in time.
To be fair, she's very important leading wars, so maybe
that would be why, and he may just be in
the background helping keep the house together. I don't know.
(19:03):
They never talk about children nothing. So with that, this
was not a big proponent to who she was. Being
a wife was not a big thing. This could be
a translation in saying that she was a fiber woman
and a woman of flames. Again, she does have a
title of being a woman of command, a woman of
a warrior, a judge, which was so it's just a
(19:26):
big title in this point in time. So there is
that moment they're like, Oh, maybe there is a bigger
depth to this. Interestingly, again, I don't know about her lineage.
I can't say she's real. I don't know. Ray listener,
Hello friend of the show, long time listener, Love you
(19:47):
Hay who often says this great means love you and videos.
But maybe she would have more contexts she was really
excited about this episode because I don't the things that
I thought I knew seems like maybe I made up
in my head because I was so hungry for strong
women when I was in the church that I had
desperately clung to any of these things. But there's not
(20:09):
much conversations about her lineage in this moment or even beyond. Again,
like I said, that title of being a fiery woman
seems pretty on brand with the rest of her short chapters.
Of course, those who are religious would argue, of course
she is real and existed, and that there's evidence of
(20:31):
the battles that may have ensued. So this battle was
known for its chariots, like it had the I think
at that point in time the largest amount of chariots
being used, which is also why a storm would be
really bad for them and why it didn't work. So
Sisarah would have had this collection of this army, this
giant army with amazing chariots coming through that work so well.
(20:54):
They do also talk about one tribe that did not
participate on land war because they were see based the
tribe of Daniel Dan Dan. I believe I should have
put it the figurin. I'm not a theologian. I have
not said this in depth. These are just from what
I'm reading all the different articles. If I'm reading that
go back and forth again. I have seen many articles
(21:17):
about the archaeologists going back and forth about what they found,
what they didn't find, where they found it, how they
found it, the dating is and being corrected incorrect. I
feel like that there's a lot of like politics and
soap opa drama in that industry. That's just me just
through the back and forth they have. But they have
a lot of arguments trying to disprove each other.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I feel like I think that's the whole thing theologian is.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You're like, no, you're wrong, But.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Even archaeologists, like the Biblical archaeologists have them like you
carbon dated that wrong. I'm sorry to tell you this.
You use the wrong time. Brame like well, Dane because
they even argue about the books. They talk about how
most likely at one point they were saying that the
Book of Deborah, the Song of Deborah the Judges were
one of the older written ones, and they're like, actually
(22:08):
it may have been written more recently than you know.
They're like, wait, what so even the timeline for that
has been all over the place, because they also talked
about the fact that Judges Chapter four probably wasn't written
before chapter five. Actually chapter five was written first, but
they were published differently. So there's again, y'all, this is
(22:30):
what makes my head swim on these things that I'm like,
I really don't understand this level. But also in this
conversation is they just keep discovering new things because they
keep going out and try and find discover things. Unfortunately,
with all of the things that are happening in Palestine,
I don't think any new discoveries have been made recently.
(22:50):
I will say in twenty twenty two they did find
North Carolina. A group from North Carolina, you U and C.
Chapel hill I believe found the oldest mosaic in an
Israeli temple that depicts the battle with Deborah and Cicera
so they did find that in jail, so they have
a mosaic that honors Deborah and Jail from I think
(23:13):
they said like early thousand. So you know that's cool. Yeah,
that's very cool. That happened in twenty twenty two. So
they did find that depiction, which, again, things are being
discovered all the time. That Apocrapha was kind of like
one of those things that like pull it out, put
(23:34):
it in, but follow it out. And I went down
a whole rabbit hole about the apocrypha and what was
included and what wasn't included, and who includes it and
why they don't include it. There's a lot of arguments
to it as well. Yes, my head was swimming after that.
(24:02):
Moving on, many will cling to the whole faith debate
when it comes to this conversations argument Again in historical
accuracies are often brushed aside with the fact that some
claims are founded and some claims seem like it's close
to or interpretation of as holy evidence, like this is like, eh,
kind of it would have been around here type of conversation,
(24:23):
which is really hard to denote, like it's really hard
to know, we've talked about this. It's really hard to
see it when we talked about a female first, who
was truly first is because we don't know who is
dictating what is first, who is writing down, who is
covering up. It's the same level I wanted to note
about the apography y'all, I thought I knew and understood it.
(24:45):
I did not because I thought I didn't realize the
Book of Ruth, you know that exists. Book of Ruth
and Book of Esther exists, the only two women I
believe in the Old Testament that was named after. There
(25:05):
was another part of Book of Ruth that they left
out and it's now considered part of the apographa. So
it was like, huh, and the only the Catholics acknowledge it,
But they will also say don't take it to heart.
So here you know, there are a lot of controversies
(25:26):
on how churches tell the story. Of course, with the
basis between the Catholics versus Protestants, that's a huge debate.
We talked about why women can't be popes in a
lot of the Catholic churches recently we kind of mentioned
it in our Religious Trauma about women not being in
the ministry as well, and this is kind of one
(25:47):
of those things where they use her as an example,
used Deborah as an example of why women can be like,
look what happened here? This was amazing and having a
woman heroin with a woman being the Assassinah, it kind
of really ruffled a lot of feathers and it still does.
It still does. So there have been several people who
have made sure to make arguments as to why Deborah
(26:10):
wasn't as cool as you think she was type of
conversation or as as as big deal as you think was.
Some argue that Deborah was called because there was no men,
which is kind of odd because obviously there was a
lot of men. There was military day won Wars, Right,
so I don't under what do you mean, bro? What
do you mean maybe in that level of like strong enough,
(26:35):
loud enough in comparison to Maybe that's what they were saying,
that Deborah actually put herself in this position so that
she wasn't actually called by God. She was just like
I'll do it, which seems like a weird argument because like, okay,
then we should have more women doing that. Why wouldn't
more What do you mean.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Right, It's just that she's not cool enough for God?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I'm not really okay that because she didn't speak to
crowds like the others, that her work was kind of invalid.
They said she wasn't truly prophesying, she wasn't truly leading
because the crowd cann't see it. I guess what is
it with men trying to be loud again, we kind
(27:21):
of already talked abo earlier, but that she was actually
a punishment on the Israeli people, that she was called
to be the leader to embarrass Israel, to embarrass them
as a community, to say that y'all are so sinful
that even a woman can lead you, because y'all are
that bad, y'all that bad, down and out, So a
(27:41):
woman being ooh, how shameful, how shameful? You'll be marked
with shame for having a woman as a leader. And
then again, it's not a stretch of saying having a
lovely woman, because Deborah kind of in that same story,
she does reinforce this idea that having a woman doing
a powerful thing is a punishment to men. So you
can't really like it feels hypocritical in that level.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Right to be fair, Ford Barock.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
He probably did see this as a punishment for himself
because of that time frame. But I don't know. I
want to give props to him, being like, nah, but
I trust this woman to lead me as well as
I want her to be on my side because that's
the only way I can have victory. So I feel
like he's a green flag. I don't know, is that right?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Is that weird?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
As long as he was cool about it, as long
as it wasn't like a super cowardly you die kind
of thing, then yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
He obviously didn't try to steal credit from jail.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah, maybe he just wanted to be on the outside.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
He was just like, I'll do what I have to do,
but I'm cool with everybody else doing what they need
to do too. Yeah, I'm not ashamed of this, let's go.
Maybe that was the problem. He didn't have enough shame
for them.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah, oh yeah, that could be it.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So would that. Many have used her as an example
for again why women should be in the ministry or
should be allowed to be in the ministry. Boy, people
are not happy. People are very unhappy with this idea,
saying comments that just this was the old Testament, nothing new.
We don't follow that, And I'm like, really, because that
seems not to be a thing for any other context, for.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Y'all, yeah, only when you want to.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I mean, we have a giant war right now based
on the claims, and we have Protestant people clinging to
it and have clung to it. Yeah, as part of
their political stance.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
So what do you mean, bro? What do you mean?
And men like Josiah not Nichols, who writes for striving
or maybe owns striving for Eternity, is one of the
many men who are adamant that Deborah was a punishment
for Israel at the time, for such a sinful time.
And this is what he wrote, Female pastors are a
judgment against a simple rebellious church. And he's in referencing
(30:08):
why Deborah was appointed and why this is not a
good example of why women should be ministers. It clearly
shows the church does not hold to the authority of scripture.
The church needs to repent and submit to the clear
teachings of God's word. So if you have a female pastor, yeah,
(30:28):
you need to repent.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Oh okay, you.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Know, And this is the reason publishing. I would also
like to insert here that after the battle was won,
Deborah remained judge for that forty years of peace.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
So for who they're saying is not a you know,
a good leader or a punishment, she shows him to
be doing a good job. Yeah, because those timeframes.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Were ugly, like it was not good.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
It was up and down and up and down again.
It's interesting to see because I don't we don't really
see much about her life specifically in any of the
other things. You know, when I'm there at peace, they
don't really talk about what is happening then, just so
when it comes to upheaval. I did also want to
mention that she so that battle and baraque Barrick was
(31:28):
mentioned in Hebrews by Paul or those who were writing
for Paul, but not Deborah. Deborah was conveniently left out
in that conversation, which feels about on point of how
I feel about Paul. I will leave it out of here,
but I'm just saying there's also an I just kind
of found it interesting. An apostle that was around during
(31:51):
the time of Paul who was left out of the
Bible often Junia, who was also known as Mother of Apostles,
which also given to the name of Mary Magdalen, which
we talked about previously. There's like this interchanging of them,
but whether or not she truly existed or who was
who was first and was named the only female apostle apostle.
(32:18):
It's interesting how they these people are left out, they
are women left out, or they're bunched up, so they're
not giving individual credit. So there's a little level of
conversation in that. Deborah is pretty significant again being the
only judge who helped win battles, who went into battle
and did it proudly like she's like gool, let's go,
(32:40):
but still try to keep the standards of decorum. I
guess if she was the prophetess, the judge of the
under the Palm, as she was known at that point
in time, she kept peace in Israel and prosperous for
forty years where they were no longer enslaved and won battles.
So there is a lot to be said. I really
(33:00):
wish there was more information. I really wish we could
have seen the aftermath of what that looked like. But
she she held her own in the Bible. But still
many don't like the credit at all. They want to
see her as a negative light. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, that is very unfortunate, and it's extremely unfortunate that
even today we're still having these conversations. People are still
trying to discredit Deborah and other women in the Bible.
(33:41):
And I guess you know, piece is a bad thing now,
so she messed up on that front as well. Probably
what a punishment.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Wow, listeners, do let us know if you know anything else?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, I would love to hear more.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yes, if there's any other figure from the Bible or
any any religion really you'd like us to talk about.
The Bible would be easy. It's just because we know
kind of basics about it. Yeah, let us know about that.
And then if you have any thoughts about what's going
on with women in churches and all of that stuff,
(34:24):
you could contact us in a number of ways. You
can email us at Hello, at stuff Wenever told You,
dot Com. You can find us on blue Sky, I'm
Moms a podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
I've Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have
some merchandise at coom Bureau, and we have the book
you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as
always too, our super produce Christina or Excider Pruce, Ma
and your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
(34:45):
for listening stuff I never told you. Instructure of by
heart Radio. For more podcasts from My heart Radio, you
can check out the heart radio app Apple podcasts, or
if you listen to your favorite shows, oh
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuffh
I ever told your production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to another episode. We're just kind of going down
a biblical route. I feel like a little bit. Anie
did a great episode recently on Mary Magdalene, and we
briefly mentioned another woman from the Bible, and there was
some interest in hearing more about her, Deborah, the only
(00:40):
judge in the Hebrew Bible. So we wanted to take
a moment to kind of talk about her. But I
need to put this caveat. It's a shorter episode because
there's not really much depth, Like we've seen a little
bit of historical context. There's a lot of arguments around her,
much like any other women. Figure. I feel like that
(01:01):
become fairly controversial in this note. I am going to
also put a lot of opinions and feelings in this,
so go ahead with that as a caveat as well.
I'm going to try not to get too excited because
I get extra squeaky when I do. So I when
we roll it back, y'all the pollen it's awful.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, it's bad. It's not joking around. I washed my
car and then I came back out gone already.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I mean, I feel like it's a personal attack at
this point, and I'm fully offended by what is happening.
And we've also talked about how climate change has been
part of this reason slash, how the way that we
have badly set up Oh yeah, our areas has caused
(01:55):
even more problems with pollen. So but anyway, done with that.
But just obviously I'm not getting any better, So this
just be my own new voice.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Enjoy karaoke nightes, give me funds.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I think I might have a Julie Andrew's problem, not
that I ever sing like her, but like not being
able to sing for real, for real anymore. I can't
hit any notes anymore.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
That is sad.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
My days of singing Natalie and Brookleia maybe over.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Oh no, I don't say that anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Back to talking about Deborah. So she is mentioned in
two chapters in the Book of Judges, which follows the
stories of the twelve appointed judges who are in charge
in leading the Israelites. So it's interesting to talk about
these types of subjects at this time in this climate
political world, climate of things that are happening, because it's
(02:51):
obviously a bigger conversation about like ownership of land and
what is promised and what is promised and who is
doing what. But we're not talking about that. We're talking
about the historical context slash not fantasy contexts. No, I
don't know how to put this because I will say,
in this dive of trying to figure out the Bible,
(03:13):
and I think everyone kind of understands this a little bit,
who have maybe separated themselves away from religion, but to
try to figure out how factual and how accurate is
the Bible, And according to my search, no one really
talks about it and or is not allowed on the
(03:34):
internets because my search for the first five six pages
and read throughs of articles upon articles are all from
religious accounts. So I'm sorry, that's really biased. So I
can't really use those as in context about whether or
not it's historically accurate. I will say there are biblical
(03:56):
archaeologists who have discovered battle areas and kingdoms and lands.
We know the Egyptians were real. We know that things
were built as the Egyptians of late and arras as
written in the Bible, so we know this context is real. Now,
with all of that, it's a little iffy because I
(04:16):
want Deborah to exist. I don't know what I mean.
I want her to be real. I want her to
be the leader that people didn't think existed. You know,
that could have been, but I don't know, we don't
actually know with all of that. Yes, she was one
of the twelve appointed judges. All of the other were men.
(04:37):
She was also the first one to be noted as
being a both prophetess and a judge. There are two
different things. There are apparently several other prophetess is in
the Bible and the Hebrew text that I don't know
are often credited as that within that timeframe, but that
are now seen as so, but not they were not judges.
(05:00):
So judges are very significant, called on by God to lead,
oftentimes in battle. So this is who they are. Again,
she was first noted as being a prophet is and
then rose to the leadership of being a judge of
the Israelis. It should be noted that Judges, I think
was written by Samuel, who was also a judge and prophet,
So no of that they are now. I thought there
(05:23):
was a whole other book, the Book of Deborah, but
that doesn't seem to be I apparently got that wrong
in my head that exists. There are other books written
about women, they think about women. Each of those women
are typically either women who have our wives or someone,
or who have assassinated someone, or who were raped and
(05:47):
used as an example.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Right, not great, not great.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
But Deborah was not one of those. I'm a little
sad that she wasn't. But again, she does have the
two chapters chapter four of Judges in chapter five. Now,
the breakdown of her two chapters has a lot of
debate about that in itself, such as why they were
written the way they were, because apparently the chapter five
is also considered the Song of Deborah because of the
(06:14):
way it's written, is a lot more poetic, a little
bit different. It takes on the account of both the
battle and victory of it all, and again it is
kind of traditional to have a song of something as
like the victory stance of a timeframe. Again, this is
supposedly supposed to be from her perspective, as if she
(06:35):
did write this, even though it was Samuel anyway. According
to so, if you've read through the Old Testament, you
may already be familiar with the constant struggles of the Israelites,
as they continue to face tribulations and trials which they
often fail, they fall for idols constantly, Like it's a constant.
(06:56):
I guess we could say that about any group of
people constantly fail and are punished pretty severely, including decades
of enslavement and being lost in the wilderness. Again, this
is kind of that narrative of like, oh, you're going
through bad times, this is your punishment, which would come
back to later be like that's seemingly wrong on a
(07:20):
different level, But I say, neither here nor there. Who
knows how we're going to be written decades centuries, centuries,
centuries from now. So Deborah was to be around twelve
nine BCE to eleven sixty nine BCE, so way back when,
way back when, for all the time, and according to studies,
(07:44):
Deborah was a leader who often advised under a palm tree,
like she was known as the palm judge things a
little bit. And one of those reasonings may have been
a theory is because she was a woman, she could
not be in a home or in an enclosed area
with men that she advised, so she would do so
(08:05):
out in public under a palm I was thinking, oh, yeah,
I guess that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I mean probably good for her protection too. Anyway, moving on,
and she wasn't noted to have like giant speeches or
like if you know anything about the story of Moses,
he often came down railed upon the people and be like,
you are sinning and these are the things that you
were gone wrong. He does massive speeches. Mm hmm, Carlton.
According to Charlton Heston, I don't know, not just kidding,
(08:41):
but like, and she was known to do that. She
just privately met with people and let people so it
was a little different for that, and she would give
a lot of advice. She definitely would be like God
told me this, we're doing these things, so you know
one of those things. The story goes during the time
of oppression from the Canaanite rule, and it was that
(09:01):
Deborah who rose up and became the voice of God.
So they were in twenty years of oppression enslavement from
the canaan knights, and she rose up saying it is
time for battle. We're going into battle. This is the beginning.
So she goes to she appoints Bayroc or Barack, who
she is appointed as the military leader to let him
(09:23):
know his time, we're going into battle, you were going
to have victory.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It was great, and only he's like, okay, cool, cool, cool,
I'll do this. However, I will only go if you
go with me to Deborah. So I will say, she
is the only judge who was not also a military leader.
And that is also because she is a woman like
that is noted. She could not be a military leader
(09:48):
for that reason. And in this level of understanding, she's like, okay, cool, cool, cool,
I'll go with you because you know this is what
I'll do. However, know that you will not have the
final victory. So in this whole battle, she lets him
know that he would win because God and the angels
were with him. So in this battle, there is this
conversation that people are seeing and witnessing this battle and
(10:12):
they say they can see angels fighting with them. Now,
this could be interpretation because there was an unusual storm
that happened that did give them a better advantage according
again to the Bible, and so maybe within that storm
they saw visions of angels. And I'm just theorizing here
on that one. He said again he would go, but
(10:34):
only if she went with him. And according to again
the research in Theologians and all the things that have
missed my search engine up because I am now once
again inundated with Christian information. It's saying that she again
was the only woman to be with them, not the
military leader. And so they go together. Yay, all right,
(10:58):
so we're going together with that Barrock was the chosen
one and does win. And again this kind of goes
back and forth of like why Barack did not want
to go by himself, why Barack really wanted Deborah to
go with him, all these things. I don't know if
he was already a military leader. It kind of sounds
like she had a vision of a person and it
(11:20):
was like it's you, and he's like okay, type of conversation,
which happens a lot when it comes to Faith's stories. Again,
Barrock did not have the privilege of the final victorious
moment of killing the Canaan a general Cesyria, but that
honor would be handed to a lowly woman, Jayu, who
was also from the tribes of Israel. However, she may
(11:44):
have been a tentmaker while her husband was a weapons maker,
so all of these things. But he was a weapons
maker for Seceyria. But if they were under enslavement, obviously
they had to do these things. Type of conversation with
that the song that Deborah goes on to talk about
how God assisted them in battle by bringing down rain
and storms again that were not usual for that season,
(12:06):
and how the mothers, specifically the mother of Ceceyria, would
look out at her window and lament in prayers and
hoping to see her son return from battle. Spoiler of
the lot Kei did and Seiria, who went to rest
in his tent with a nice bowl of milk, would
soon have a tentpole driven in his head thanks to jail. Now,
(12:31):
oh yeah, either way, there's a lot about Jaia I
think fantasy level. I'm not sure as it's written about,
like how one theory is that she was afraid as
an israel Israelite to be seen with Ceyria, and she
(12:52):
was there under not great circumstances and has visited him often,
and I say that theblicly visited, and so she wanted
to make sure to kill him and be like, hey,
are you looking for this man? I have him here
in this tent essentially, and so she did that for
that reason others goes that she was a hero for
(13:14):
Israel and knew what she was doing and plays an assassin.
There is some conversations about how many times she had
sex with Cesyria and whether or not she actually all
these There are these theories that I was like good God.
It's necessary. It wasn't obviously because it wasn't involved in
the scriptures. But it has been told outside of I
(13:38):
don't know how factual any of that is, or how
accurate it is into any biblical references that we don't see,
because obviously I cannot read Hebrew, so I will not people.
I cannot read Greek. I cannot give you those translations.
Once upon a time, when I thought I was going
to be a missionary, I really believed I would learn
these things and read the Bible in full of this context.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
So there's a.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Lot of theory about who she was. Within the Song
of deb Bro chapter five, this is how they write it.
Judges chapter five, verses twenty fourth or twenty six says
this extolled above women by jail, extolled above women in
the tent. He asked for water, she gave him milk.
She brought him cream in a lordly dish. She stretched
forth her hand to the nail, her right hand to
(14:33):
the workman's hammer, and she smeked s Sarah. She crushed
his head, She crashed through and transfixed his temples. So
very poetic for saying she killed them, she killed them good,
she killed them real hard.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Whoa.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And there are many of art depictions. Not know you've
seen any of the Renaissance paintings of this, like really
Bowld picture. She looks very voluptuous and this like like
obviously very wealthy, pompous man is laying on her lap.
Hmm yeah, yeah, yeah, and you see her with a
(15:12):
giant steak in her hand. And that's the picture that
we see. I will say, when I was talking about
how she had had sex with him so many times,
that's how they say she tired him out, quote unquote.
And it wasn't milk oh, that it was a metaphor.
I mean, I don't know why that's necessary, but you know,
I find that interesting that that has to be a
(15:32):
part of that text.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I we talked about that a little after the Mary
Magdalen episode. It does seem like why we got to
make this sexual all the time? Uh, why do we
gotta make this romantic all the time.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Maybe it really really they really not needed to like
and again, it could absolutely have something to do with
the fact that a woman should not wield that much power,
even though the punishment to a man was giving women victory,
which yes, we're going to come back to a little bit,
but would only be okay is if her only power
(16:06):
is sex cervitude.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
And that's not to say I don't know, you know,
historical distortion.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I know people.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Had some hang ups, not always, but sometimes hang ups
talking about sex.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
But I guess what I'm saying is maybe they're right.
But it does feel kind of like.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Hmm, right, it's convenient now, I will say again, because
I don't want to diminish the idea of Deborah in
jail in that they were significant parts of this story,
but it does feel like when it in context of
like so many conversations of like of women who have
(16:51):
done big things or giant things, like many people called
Deborah a warrior because she did go out in battle,
because a man wouldn't go by himself or as the
leader of himself, all of these different things, but like
at the same time to be seen as diminishing this
is not necessarily a story of power about women, but
more about lack of manliness of men.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Mm hmm, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
It's kind of like, okay, it can't be one or
the other, like you know what I mean, right, But
all that to say is that she did do all
of that. She did help in the war, she ended
that war, and Deborah rightly gave her praise for that
in a very poetic manner. So going back to Deborah,
she is actually introduced as Deborah the wife of Lapidote,
(17:37):
which is not uncommon to be so and so's wife,
to be so and so's daughter, to be so and
so's mother, all these things, because lineage is obviously a
very big conversation if you I was just telling Annie
off Mike, on Mike, but off Mike that when we
were younger, my grandparents great grandparents would have all the
kids read the Christmas story. And I'm not talking about
(17:57):
like Mama and her kerchief thing. I'm talking about the
biblical reference to when Jesus was born in the manger,
and it starts off with this lineage, and it is
hard to read and as a twelve year old try
and figure out how to do that in King James version.
But one thing I can tell you is they do
(18:19):
love to talk about lineage, so having a connection, having
a family connection is not unusual. However, some have argued
that this title wasn't necessarily just about the domestic link
that she had, but maybe the other definition, So lapidote
actually means in Hebrew torches or fire or flames rather,
(18:40):
and so some people have taken this into a definition
of a woman of torches or a fiery woman, and
they're like, okay, maybe because they never really mention him. Again,
they never mentioned a husband at any point in time.
To be fair, she's very important leading wars, so maybe
that would be why, and he may just be in
the background helping keep the house together. I don't know.
(19:03):
They never talk about children nothing. So with that, this
was not a big proponent to who she was. Being
a wife was not a big thing. This could be
a translation in saying that she was a fiber woman
and a woman of flames. Again, she does have a
title of being a woman of command, a woman of
a warrior, a judge, which was so it's just a
(19:26):
big title in this point in time. So there is
that moment they're like, Oh, maybe there is a bigger
depth to this. Interestingly, again, I don't know about her lineage.
I can't say she's real. I don't know. Ray listener,
Hello friend of the show, long time listener, Love you
(19:47):
Hay who often says this great means love you and videos.
But maybe she would have more contexts she was really
excited about this episode because I don't the things that
I thought I knew seems like maybe I made up
in my head because I was so hungry for strong
women when I was in the church that I had
desperately clung to any of these things. But there's not
(20:09):
much conversations about her lineage in this moment or even beyond. Again,
like I said, that title of being a fiery woman
seems pretty on brand with the rest of her short chapters.
Of course, those who are religious would argue, of course
she is real and existed, and that there's evidence of
(20:31):
the battles that may have ensued. So this battle was
known for its chariots, like it had the I think
at that point in time the largest amount of chariots
being used, which is also why a storm would be
really bad for them and why it didn't work. So
Sisarah would have had this collection of this army, this
giant army with amazing chariots coming through that work so well.
(20:54):
They do also talk about one tribe that did not
participate on land war because they were see based the
tribe of Daniel Dan Dan. I believe I should have
put it the figurin. I'm not a theologian. I have
not said this in depth. These are just from what
I'm reading all the different articles. If I'm reading that
go back and forth again. I have seen many articles
(21:17):
about the archaeologists going back and forth about what they found,
what they didn't find, where they found it, how they
found it, the dating is and being corrected incorrect. I
feel like that there's a lot of like politics and
soap opa drama in that industry. That's just me just
through the back and forth they have. But they have
a lot of arguments trying to disprove each other.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I feel like I think that's the whole thing theologian is.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You're like, no, you're wrong, But.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Even archaeologists, like the Biblical archaeologists have them like you
carbon dated that wrong. I'm sorry to tell you this.
You use the wrong time. Brame like well, Dane because
they even argue about the books. They talk about how
most likely at one point they were saying that the
Book of Deborah, the Song of Deborah the Judges were
one of the older written ones, and they're like, actually
(22:08):
it may have been written more recently than you know.
They're like, wait, what so even the timeline for that
has been all over the place, because they also talked
about the fact that Judges Chapter four probably wasn't written
before chapter five. Actually chapter five was written first, but
they were published differently. So there's again, y'all, this is
(22:30):
what makes my head swim on these things that I'm like,
I really don't understand this level. But also in this
conversation is they just keep discovering new things because they
keep going out and try and find discover things. Unfortunately,
with all of the things that are happening in Palestine,
I don't think any new discoveries have been made recently.
(22:50):
I will say in twenty twenty two they did find
North Carolina. A group from North Carolina, you U and C.
Chapel hill I believe found the oldest mosaic in an
Israeli temple that depicts the battle with Deborah and Cicera
so they did find that in jail, so they have
a mosaic that honors Deborah and Jail from I think
(23:13):
they said like early thousand. So you know that's cool. Yeah,
that's very cool. That happened in twenty twenty two. So
they did find that depiction, which, again, things are being
discovered all the time. That Apocrapha was kind of like
one of those things that like pull it out, put
(23:34):
it in, but follow it out. And I went down
a whole rabbit hole about the apocrypha and what was
included and what wasn't included, and who includes it and
why they don't include it. There's a lot of arguments
to it as well. Yes, my head was swimming after that.
(24:02):
Moving on, many will cling to the whole faith debate
when it comes to this conversations argument Again in historical
accuracies are often brushed aside with the fact that some
claims are founded and some claims seem like it's close
to or interpretation of as holy evidence, like this is like, eh,
kind of it would have been around here type of conversation,
(24:23):
which is really hard to denote, like it's really hard
to know, we've talked about this. It's really hard to
see it when we talked about a female first, who
was truly first is because we don't know who is
dictating what is first, who is writing down, who is
covering up. It's the same level I wanted to note
about the apography y'all, I thought I knew and understood it.
(24:45):
I did not because I thought I didn't realize the
Book of Ruth, you know that exists. Book of Ruth
and Book of Esther exists, the only two women I
believe in the Old Testament that was named after. There
(25:05):
was another part of Book of Ruth that they left
out and it's now considered part of the apographa. So
it was like, huh, and the only the Catholics acknowledge it,
But they will also say don't take it to heart.
So here you know, there are a lot of controversies
(25:26):
on how churches tell the story. Of course, with the
basis between the Catholics versus Protestants, that's a huge debate.
We talked about why women can't be popes in a
lot of the Catholic churches recently we kind of mentioned
it in our Religious Trauma about women not being in
the ministry as well, and this is kind of one
(25:47):
of those things where they use her as an example,
used Deborah as an example of why women can be like,
look what happened here? This was amazing and having a
woman heroin with a woman being the Assassinah, it kind
of really ruffled a lot of feathers and it still does.
It still does. So there have been several people who
have made sure to make arguments as to why Deborah
(26:10):
wasn't as cool as you think she was type of
conversation or as as as big deal as you think was.
Some argue that Deborah was called because there was no men,
which is kind of odd because obviously there was a
lot of men. There was military day won Wars, Right,
so I don't under what do you mean, bro? What
do you mean maybe in that level of like strong enough,
(26:35):
loud enough in comparison to Maybe that's what they were saying,
that Deborah actually put herself in this position so that
she wasn't actually called by God. She was just like
I'll do it, which seems like a weird argument because like, okay,
then we should have more women doing that. Why wouldn't
more What do you mean.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Right, It's just that she's not cool enough for God?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I'm not really okay that because she didn't speak to
crowds like the others, that her work was kind of invalid.
They said she wasn't truly prophesying, she wasn't truly leading
because the crowd cann't see it. I guess what is
it with men trying to be loud again, we kind
(27:21):
of already talked abo earlier, but that she was actually
a punishment on the Israeli people, that she was called
to be the leader to embarrass Israel, to embarrass them
as a community, to say that y'all are so sinful
that even a woman can lead you, because y'all are
that bad, y'all that bad, down and out, So a
(27:41):
woman being ooh, how shameful, how shameful? You'll be marked
with shame for having a woman as a leader. And
then again, it's not a stretch of saying having a
lovely woman, because Deborah kind of in that same story,
she does reinforce this idea that having a woman doing
a powerful thing is a punishment to men. So you
can't really like it feels hypocritical in that level.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Right to be fair, Ford Barock.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
He probably did see this as a punishment for himself
because of that time frame. But I don't know. I
want to give props to him, being like, nah, but
I trust this woman to lead me as well as
I want her to be on my side because that's
the only way I can have victory. So I feel
like he's a green flag. I don't know, is that right?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Is that weird?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
As long as he was cool about it, as long
as it wasn't like a super cowardly you die kind
of thing, then yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
He obviously didn't try to steal credit from jail.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah, maybe he just wanted to be on the outside.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
He was just like, I'll do what I have to do,
but I'm cool with everybody else doing what they need
to do too. Yeah, I'm not ashamed of this, let's go.
Maybe that was the problem. He didn't have enough shame
for them.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah, oh yeah, that could be it.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So would that. Many have used her as an example
for again why women should be in the ministry or
should be allowed to be in the ministry. Boy, people
are not happy. People are very unhappy with this idea,
saying comments that just this was the old Testament, nothing new.
We don't follow that, And I'm like, really, because that
seems not to be a thing for any other context, for.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Y'all, yeah, only when you want to.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
I mean, we have a giant war right now based
on the claims, and we have Protestant people clinging to
it and have clung to it. Yeah, as part of
their political stance.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
So what do you mean, bro? What do you mean?
And men like Josiah not Nichols, who writes for striving
or maybe owns striving for Eternity, is one of the
many men who are adamant that Deborah was a punishment
for Israel at the time, for such a sinful time.
And this is what he wrote, Female pastors are a
judgment against a simple rebellious church. And he's in referencing
(30:08):
why Deborah was appointed and why this is not a
good example of why women should be ministers. It clearly
shows the church does not hold to the authority of scripture.
The church needs to repent and submit to the clear
teachings of God's word. So if you have a female pastor, yeah,
(30:28):
you need to repent.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Oh okay, you.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Know, And this is the reason publishing. I would also
like to insert here that after the battle was won,
Deborah remained judge for that forty years of peace.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
So for who they're saying is not a you know,
a good leader or a punishment, she shows him to
be doing a good job. Yeah, because those timeframes.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Were ugly, like it was not good.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
It was up and down and up and down again.
It's interesting to see because I don't we don't really
see much about her life specifically in any of the
other things. You know, when I'm there at peace, they
don't really talk about what is happening then, just so
when it comes to upheaval. I did also want to
mention that she so that battle and baraque Barrick was
(31:28):
mentioned in Hebrews by Paul or those who were writing
for Paul, but not Deborah. Deborah was conveniently left out
in that conversation, which feels about on point of how
I feel about Paul. I will leave it out of here,
but I'm just saying there's also an I just kind
of found it interesting. An apostle that was around during
(31:51):
the time of Paul who was left out of the
Bible often Junia, who was also known as Mother of Apostles,
which also given to the name of Mary Magdalen, which
we talked about previously. There's like this interchanging of them,
but whether or not she truly existed or who was
who was first and was named the only female apostle apostle.
(32:18):
It's interesting how they these people are left out, they
are women left out, or they're bunched up, so they're
not giving individual credit. So there's a little level of
conversation in that. Deborah is pretty significant again being the
only judge who helped win battles, who went into battle
and did it proudly like she's like gool, let's go,
(32:40):
but still try to keep the standards of decorum. I
guess if she was the prophetess, the judge of the
under the Palm, as she was known at that point
in time, she kept peace in Israel and prosperous for
forty years where they were no longer enslaved and won battles.
So there is a lot to be said. I really
(33:00):
wish there was more information. I really wish we could
have seen the aftermath of what that looked like. But
she she held her own in the Bible. But still
many don't like the credit at all. They want to
see her as a negative light. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, that is very unfortunate, and it's extremely unfortunate that
even today we're still having these conversations. People are still
trying to discredit Deborah and other women in the Bible.
(33:41):
And I guess you know, piece is a bad thing now,
so she messed up on that front as well. Probably
what a punishment.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Wow, listeners, do let us know if you know anything else?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, I would love to hear more.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yes, if there's any other figure from the Bible or
any any religion really you'd like us to talk about.
The Bible would be easy. It's just because we know
kind of basics about it. Yeah, let us know about that.
And then if you have any thoughts about what's going
on with women in churches and all of that stuff,
(34:24):
you could contact us in a number of ways. You
can email us at Hello, at stuff Wenever told You,
dot Com. You can find us on blue Sky, I'm
Moms a podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
I've Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have
some merchandise at coom Bureau, and we have the book
you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as
always too, our super produce Christina or Excider Pruce, Ma
and your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
(34:45):
for listening stuff I never told you. Instructure of by
heart Radio. For more podcasts from My heart Radio, you
can check out the heart radio app Apple podcasts, or
if you listen to your favorite shows, oh
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.