April 10, 2026 • 28 mins
Throughout history, the Biblical figure Mary Magdalene has been interpreted and presented in numerous ways, often to serve the religious Western Christianity patriarchies in power. All of these concerted efforts make tracing her history difficult, but underneath it all, she threatened power structures and resonates today.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and SMITHA.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I ever told your prediction of iHeartRadio. And as we
record this episode, it is April ninth, twenty twenty six,
and we are coming off Easter weekend, and due to
(00:28):
a lot of world events and personal events, we're still
scrambling a bit. So today I thought we would do
an overview of a controversial figure from the Bible, Mary Magdalene.
This was a suggestion from a friend of mine because
she was lamenting about the very specific Catholic version of
(00:52):
Mary Magdalene's story that she got and how she's like
realizing that might not be the case. I have to
say I did. I was religious up until seventh grade.
I read the Bible a lot of times. I don't
remember Mary Magdalen at all, but I did read the
(01:14):
Divin Code, which is the first time I was like, oh,
I had not heard of this person. And I know,
I know some of you were like gritting your teeth
at that, but that is the first time I remember
reading about Mary Magdalene. However, if you don't know the
plot twists in that book movie, it's that Jesus bloodline
(01:37):
lives on through his relations with Mary Magdalene, who may
have been a sex worker and or his wife. I
think in the book it was his wife, but it
has been a minute since I have consumed that media.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
But whoa.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
My Christian friends did not like when I would bring
it up. They were always like, you know, that's fiction, right, yeah,
got it? Anyway, So math that I wanted to ask
about your experience with Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Well, I hate it a minute, but I probably would
have been that Christian friend of Melake. You understand that
that really really bastardized this idea in a way that
I would have been upset to. Uh. Yes, I did
know quite a bit about Mary Magdalene. Any female character
that was of any importance in the Bible was very
(02:29):
memorable for me. Mary Magdalen happened to be this like
the bar when it came to being the most filthy
or most unworthy according to the Gospels, because not only
was she a woman, but yes, she was known as
it was implied that she was impure. So whether it
was because like there were so many implications of whether
(02:51):
or not it was her fault that she was impure,
as in like she was a sex worker, because that
kind of was the implication, or if she had been
cast aside because she had gotten divorced, and or and
so it was no longer pure in that light, whatever
may have been sex was implicated. Her sexualization was implicated
as a part of her character. And if we know
(03:13):
anything about how Christians, specifically Western Christians feel about sex
and women, that is the dirtiest of the dirty.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
So you can go from that. But her main.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Fame in the Bible is her wiping of his foot,
Jesus's feet, washing his feet and then wiping it with
her hair, which was also symbol of being the most adorned,
like most thing of value on her, which was her
long flowing hair.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
So, yes, I do know quite a bit about her.
She does.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
She is pretty significant from my upbringing because of these conversations.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yes, well, the interesting thing we're going to get into
a lot of this, a lot of the stuff you
brought brought up. But WHOA, There's been a lot of
effort to paint her in a certain way. She has
featured in several movies and miniseries, many of which have
drawn boycotts and backlash, including being featured in Jesus Christ Superstar,
(04:17):
where she sings I don't know how to love him.
He's just a man, and I've had so many men before.
I want him, so I love him so all right,
All of that being said, Since her debut two thousand
years ago, Mary Magdalene has been someone who, yes, has
been painted in a variety of different lights, many of
them negative at least in the perspective of those describing her,
(04:40):
and malded to serve those in power and the narratives
that they were trying to enforce. For instance, Pope Gregory
the First declared she was a sinful woman and a
prostitute in five ninety one CE, despite having no evidence
to back up these claims. He said, quote, she whom
Luke calls the sin woman, whom John calls Mary, we
(05:02):
believe to be the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected,
according to Mark. And what did these seven devils signify,
if not all the vices? It is clear, brothers, that
the woman previously used the unjuant to perfume her flesh
and forbidden acts. What she therefore displayed more scandalously, she
was now offering to God in a more praiseworthy manner.
(05:26):
She had coveted with earthly eyes but now through penitence,
these are consumed with tears. She displayed her hair to
set off her face, but now her hair dries her tears.
She had spoken proud things with her mouth, but in
kissing the Lord's feet, she now planted her mouth on
the Redeemer's feet. For every delight therefore she had in herself,
(05:48):
she now immolated herself. She turned the mass of her
crimes to virtues in order to serve God entirely in penance.
So we're going to break this down. This was a
pretty big deal in how people viewed Mary Magdalene. But
notice how he is sexualizing her, specifically for men. How
(06:09):
he says, like, listen, brothers, look what she's doing. A
lot of early Western Christian artwork depicts her naked and
sexualized way as well. But of note, not all sects
of Christianity excepted this view, and some Eastern Orthodox religions
continued to hold her in very high regard. This is
(06:31):
also around the time that the Selected Canon I as
New Testament was being popularized, and it was also around
the same time that the Church shifted against not only
Judaism but also women, a shift that would grow over
the centuries and become when it comes to women, largely sexual.
But we'll talk about this more in a second, but
(06:51):
Mary Magdalene is believed to be Jewish. Throughout history, the
way Mary has been interpreted, often determined by those in
power and popular narratives, has shifted drastically from the symbol
of devotion, to prostitute, to none to mystic, a feminist,
a matriarch. As far back as the third century CE,
(07:13):
there was a concerted effort to discredit her via her
sexuality and womanhood, the sinful temptation, and using their depiction
of her to disempower women at large. Almost all of
this was spearheaded by men. They wanted to keep women
from positions of power, and Mary was a woman who
(07:33):
seemingly had power and was a confidant to Jesus, whoa
but yeah, let's look at what actually is in the Bible.
Mary Magdalen was a woman from a town in Galilee
named Magdala, where fishing was the primary livelihood. She went
on to become a disciple of Jesus and was the
first person to observe his resurrection after staying by the cross.
(07:57):
When Jesus was crucified, his disciples hit as I said,
she is allegedly of Jewish descent and Jewish women often
prepared corpses at the time. She was the first person
to alert the others to the news of this resurrection.
And yeah, she was the only one who didn't kind
of flee after his death. She was one of the
(08:19):
most prominent apostles, though she is not recognized as one.
Here's a passage from Luke quote. Now, after this, Jesus
made his way through towns and villages, preaching and proclaiming
the good news of the Kingdom of God. With him
went the Twelve, as well as certain women who had
been cured of evil spirits and ailments. Mary surnamed the
(08:40):
Magdalen from whom seven demons had gone out, Joanna, the
wife of Herod Stewards, Choosa, Susannah, and several others who
provided for them out of their own resources. So these
women were cured of something and now were respectful enough
to take care of Jesus. And this is where a
lot of stuff gets confused. Previous passage, like the passage
(09:01):
right before, described a woman with a bad name washing Jesus'
feet and being forgiven by him, and as often conflated
with Mary Magdalene, but those studying this do not think
they are the same person. Matthew's account of the same
thing is different and instead tells of a woman preparing
Jesus's body for death. This is the problem with historical
(09:24):
distortion and oral tradition in the Bible. Some passages claim
that the woman was having visions of Jesus' death, visions
the Disciples refused to acknowledge, while other versions use Mary's name,
making a whole confusing mess. The woman with a bad
Name's transgressions are depicted differently depending on what you're reading too,
(09:46):
from sexual to being greedy. Of note, many Christians in
the early days were not literate and depended on oral
tellings that could be warped and shaped, and there were
also a lot of Mary's in the Bible, which helped
add to the confusion.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Yes, because I honestly was thinking about Mary the sister
of Martha too.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I was like, wait, yes, she came up.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yep, yes, she came up in all of this as well.
There is a debate surrounding whether or not Mary Magdalene
is the person to the right of Jesus in the
infamous the Last Supper mural by Leonardo da Vinci. There's
(10:31):
also debate of if that is her, what does her
position at Jesus's right hand side mean. Does that mean
she was his wife? Does that mean she was his confidant,
more trusted, more valued than his twelve male apostles. Some
historians have emphasized that to understand Mary Magdalene, we have
(10:52):
to look at other women in the Bible, particularly those
occupying a sexual space. Also, she was an unmarried woman.
In fifteen eighteen, a French humanist challenged the Western Christian
interpretation of Mary, arguing that she had been mixed up
with other women in the Bible. He eventually was formally
(11:14):
condemned by French theologians. And yeah, there are a lot
of reasons she's controversial. One is she's a woman in
a religious text that seemingly had some type of influence.
It kind of seems reading about this that people were
trying to put her in a very romantic or sexual
role to explain her presence other than she just understood
(11:38):
Jesus and his teachings more than male disciples like that.
That can't be the case. It has to be this
or this. Some claim that even her relationship with Jesus,
if it wasn't sexual or necessarily romantic, there were some
physical aspects to it, like kissing that got distorted over time. Again,
kissing hasn't always been romantic and.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Still right literally, Judas kisses Jesus.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Right like come on. Jesus was often set apart from
other male leaders because he did exhibit behaviors of respect
towards women, including women with sexual histories. Mary's ideas were
also somewhat dangerous to traditional conservative beliefs, so they wanted
to discredit her and suppress her message that favor the
(12:26):
personal over church bureaucracy, and they reduced her from a
spiritual confident of Jesus to an Eurotic repetent sex worker.
There are even more elaborate tellings of her story, weaving
all of these women together into Mary's story. So, for instance,
an example of one of these is she marries John,
(12:47):
who soon leaves her, and then she turns to sex
work and becomes an adulteress and eventually found herself at
Jesus's feet. He did not condemn her, and she saw
the light, so to speak, and she applied ointment to
his feet while weeping. But a lot of these stories
got a lot of traction, So again going back to that,
(13:09):
maybe people weren't literate and they were just hearing this orally.
A lot of those stories sort of became what you
thought was in the Bible, and a lot of stuff
from this time. I know it was a pretty popular
I can't remember what it was exactly, but it was
a satirical work from I think like the thirteenth century.
But it people thought it was not satirical and it
(13:32):
became like a story. People were like, no, that's what
happened in the Bible, and it's like, nope, that was satire.
So I think there was a lot of that going
on as well. In the nineteenth century, historians discovered a
document now known as the Gospel of Mary. It was
(13:52):
for sale at an auction in Cairo. Other fragments were
found over time. It dates back to the second century,
though some argue that it does in fact run alongside
Jesus's life, since it was a recounting of past events,
which itself introduces a whole can of worms. The document
(14:13):
focuses on Mary and how she is the one disciple
that understands Jesus on a spiritual level. And how directly
pits her against some of the other disciples, perhaps Peter,
especially after Mary describes a vision she had after Jesus's
death to the disciples, Peter is pretty much like, sure
a woman would get a vision from Jesus. I don't
(14:38):
think so. So here's a quote. Did Jesus choose her
over us? This draws a sharp buke from another apostle, Levi,
who says, if the Savior made her worthy, who are
you then for your part to reject her? In this document,
she is also the only one to suggest they shared
Jesus's teachings. The rest are afraid that they'd be killed
(15:01):
like he was. It is not officially recognized as gospel
by the church these days. Mary is often used as
the reason why the Capital c Church should allow for
women priests, and in nineteen sixty nine, the Catholic Church
admitted that they were mistaken in their description of Mary
as a sex worker.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I didn't know they came out and said.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
That, yeah, yeah, but it's still you know, like there's
so much different interpretations and people trying to untangle all
of this even to this day. And my friend when
she suggested this, she like, she said, to me, I
had no idea there was any other interpretation. This is
(15:48):
what I have been told. So she wanted to learn
more about her. And I find that really fascinating because
it is still a controversial topic. It is still something
that people are arguing about and trying to interpret or
(16:11):
use and however they think will be the most beneficial
for their beliefs. When I was reading about this, I
did find a lot of articles about the role of
women in churches, women as priests, altered girls, women in
any role. Still controversial, right.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
But it also is a book of Deborah, and they
also took that out, and she was the only noted
prophetess in the Old Testament.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
She was the one that went.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Into battle more often than not, like she was a
bad individual. I think this is the beginning of my
awakening of like something's wrong here. Honestly, Deborah was the one.
And then seeing the Book of Esther was about submitting
to Man, and I was like, that's really interesting that
the books where they're kind of the leaders we pull out.
(17:08):
But as long as they're like, but I'm submitting to Man,
i am following my father in law, or I'm doing
these things, then it'll be kept in there. Then I'm like,
there seems something very misogynistic about this, the.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Layout of this.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yes, yes, And I purposely use the term selecting earlier
when I was saying what they put into the New Testament,
they were selecting and the old and the old, Well
you should we should come back and do Deborah. I
don't know much about her.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
She necesassinated. I guess it's not really a great thing,
but yeah, I would like to learn more. She knives
some people, according to next Just okay.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
All right, I'm ready, I'm ready to learn. But yeah,
just this whole idea of this historical leaving women out
(18:19):
of the story of the Bible if they weren't submissive,
and how we're still seeing that in how women can
participate in church, and just kind of attitudes around women.
In twenty thirteen and twenty fifteen, Pope Francis, who was
viewed as a relatively progressive pope, declared the door to
(18:43):
ordaining female priest was closed. In twenty fifteen, the Synod
of the Family, and I didn't know what a synod was,
but it's basically a council, had only thirty women in
attendance out of the three hundred and sixty in total,
and the women were not allowed to vote, and some
(19:03):
of them spoke out about how their voices are unheard
on issues like contraception and reproductive rights. Some of them
were saying like, we're all on it, but you're not.
We're not talking about it, you're not asking us, kind
of ignoring this whole thing, and essentially kind of this
idea that women can never be on the same level
(19:24):
as men. You could never receive the Holy message. Jesus
never could have trusted a woman as much as or
more than a man. So if Mary Magdalen was somebody
he turned to, that is a very dangerous idea for
this kind of control. And then of course the whole
(19:44):
women are the source of sin thing, right, Yeah, the
Madonna versus the horror thing. I find it interesting that
she's both been painted in the past as the sex worker,
but also in some cases this is a nun are
very like a very bias person. Yes, yes, and we
(20:10):
talked about that, you know, with even how traumatic that
can be when you're a young girl, especially in Bible school,
and they're kind of telling you like, this is women's fault,
look what you've done, and a lot of this is
(20:30):
as the quotes attest painted as very much, well, Jesus
is so forgiving for her sins, and then like stereotypes
of what women are, what women can do, women's proper roles.
If she is this person that was somebody who was
(20:53):
like spiritually on, someone Jesus could talk to, if she's
this person who's the one that stayed at the cross,
then that transgresses those kind of roles of what she
should be doing and where she should be. She can
be the Madonna of the horror. And that's where you know.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
So I guess she is often confused with Martha and
Mary in generous because I know, like the story of
Mary and Martha is the story in which Mary sits
at his feet to listen while Martha goes and prepares
the dinner and does everything. Then complains to Jesus that
Mary's not doing anything, tell her to help me, in
(21:38):
which Jesus says, no, she's doing what is the best
thing to do, which is to sit and listen to me.
And it's like, oh, okay, that's what I remember of
Mary and Martha. Also they helped wash his body that
I remember.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Do yes, yes, like I said, there's a lot of
Mary's and apparently I think there's three mother obviously the
big one, yes, but yeah, there's three specific women that
Mary Magdalene often gets mixed up with, and she's one Mary. Yeah,
(22:17):
as always. I feel like when we're talking about Western Christianity,
the sexuality and virginity big thing, when you're talking about
the Madonna and the horror thing. But just how the
church used that to discredit her. Try that's what they
tried to do, or kind of make a joke out
of her. I feel like that quote from Pope Pope
Gregory was very like elbow in the side.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Like that, because what I was reading about her, Saint
patron Saint. One of the things that is titled to
her is Apostle to the Apostles, which kids called a leadership.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah, that's the thing. That's what my friend was saying, Like,
I can't believe I've never even heard that there's a
possibility she was not only like an equal but above
the twelve.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
That would imply that she is. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Interesting, yeah, but yet still they were like, nah, she's
not worthy.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, no, let's not talk about her. In fact, she's
a sex worker with which in our mind is the worst.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Thing you could write.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Interestingly, though, when I was growing up with learning more
about the Bible in her specifically, I honestly thought, because
we knew based on old Testament ideas that if you
are raped, that the woman is no longer of value
and it was on her as being dirty and the
(23:47):
only way that could be rectified is that if the
person who raped her would marry them and claimed them essentially,
So in my mind I thought partially that might have
been her a burden was that she had been because
she was also not a like a worthy family, so
therefore they couldn't because Dowwy's and all that was all
(24:08):
set up and doing that time as well. So if
she was not worth that in itself, that made her unclean.
So all these things I never really understood that sex
work was not really implied till later, maybe because I was.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
The children's version. Yeah, but growing up.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Understanding how women were treated in those terms literally like
kings can rape women and they have no longer value
and are to be cast out of society. Essentially, I
say that in that way, but even if it's not
on them, it's such a like obviously big injustice in
any way. But like knowing that as a kid, I
(24:47):
was like, that doesn't what makes that them dirty?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
How does that make? Like there's so many levels.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
But in my mind that could have been what Mary
Magdalen's mirror problem was that also that she could have
just been a really beautiful woman.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
There was four yes, and that made her dirty somehow?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yes, absolutely absolutely, And there are many interpretations that would
agree with like every version of what you said. Uh.
I know people like to hang on to the because
it's like the seven. It doesn't say seven deadly sins,
but it's seven demons.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I don't remember that part at all.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I don't know if that was not a part of
my teachings, and that's more of a Catholic teaching, yeah,
because I do not remember her having any demons at all.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Well, and that's the thing though, is they're not sure
if it's her, but it's often attributed to her.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Okay, I know there is a story, yeah, of people
being possessed in Jesus healing, but I don't remember it
being her.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yes, uh I did read about that, but from what
I understand, it was again like there's three women there
and we're not sure which the seven demons necessarily applies
to but she was never like exercised or right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, interesting part I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
It's mostly news to me, so yeah, people are still
researching those, people are still talking about it. I do
think it's important. I think it's really interesting because this
is somebody who has been used by a lot of
(26:34):
people in power to tell a specific story and to
maintain that power. But also more and more people want
to know other interpretations of it are perhaps the more
accurate interpretations of it. So I find that really fascinating.
She's clearly had a staying power in some ways good,
(26:55):
in some ways bad. But people are still people in
organizations are push for change to have women's voices heard
in churches. I saw a lot of resources about that,
and many of them cited you know, story of Mary
Magdalen got me thinking, or are sometimes men just being
(27:18):
like I'm not I didn't have I couldn't believe that
I reached a certain point where I could be an
alter boy and my sister could be an alter girl,
Like it didn't make sense to me, like having those
kind of moments. So people are pushing for that change.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, I'd love to see it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, Yeah, well listeners, if we left anything out, if
there's something that you would like us to come back
and talk about, if you want us to talk about Deborah,
let us know. You can email us at Hello at
stuff Wenever Told You dot com. You can find us
on Blue Scott Mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram and
(27:57):
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Thanks as always too our superb dis Christina Executive Priuscine
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listen to your favorite shows
Hey, this is Annie and SMITHA.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I ever told your prediction of iHeartRadio. And as we
record this episode, it is April ninth, twenty twenty six,
and we are coming off Easter weekend, and due to
(00:28):
a lot of world events and personal events, we're still
scrambling a bit. So today I thought we would do
an overview of a controversial figure from the Bible, Mary Magdalene.
This was a suggestion from a friend of mine because
she was lamenting about the very specific Catholic version of
(00:52):
Mary Magdalene's story that she got and how she's like
realizing that might not be the case. I have to
say I did. I was religious up until seventh grade.
I read the Bible a lot of times. I don't
remember Mary Magdalen at all, but I did read the
(01:14):
Divin Code, which is the first time I was like, oh,
I had not heard of this person. And I know,
I know some of you were like gritting your teeth
at that, but that is the first time I remember
reading about Mary Magdalene. However, if you don't know the
plot twists in that book movie, it's that Jesus bloodline
(01:37):
lives on through his relations with Mary Magdalene, who may
have been a sex worker and or his wife. I
think in the book it was his wife, but it
has been a minute since I have consumed that media.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
But whoa.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
My Christian friends did not like when I would bring
it up. They were always like, you know, that's fiction, right, yeah,
got it? Anyway, So math that I wanted to ask
about your experience with Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Well, I hate it a minute, but I probably would
have been that Christian friend of Melake. You understand that
that really really bastardized this idea in a way that
I would have been upset to. Uh. Yes, I did
know quite a bit about Mary Magdalene. Any female character
that was of any importance in the Bible was very
(02:29):
memorable for me. Mary Magdalen happened to be this like
the bar when it came to being the most filthy
or most unworthy according to the Gospels, because not only
was she a woman, but yes, she was known as
it was implied that she was impure. So whether it
was because like there were so many implications of whether
(02:51):
or not it was her fault that she was impure,
as in like she was a sex worker, because that
kind of was the implication, or if she had been
cast aside because she had gotten divorced, and or and
so it was no longer pure in that light, whatever
may have been sex was implicated. Her sexualization was implicated
as a part of her character. And if we know
(03:13):
anything about how Christians, specifically Western Christians feel about sex
and women, that is the dirtiest of the dirty.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
So you can go from that. But her main.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Fame in the Bible is her wiping of his foot,
Jesus's feet, washing his feet and then wiping it with
her hair, which was also symbol of being the most adorned,
like most thing of value on her, which was her
long flowing hair.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
So, yes, I do know quite a bit about her.
She does.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
She is pretty significant from my upbringing because of these conversations.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yes, well, the interesting thing we're going to get into
a lot of this, a lot of the stuff you
brought brought up. But WHOA, There's been a lot of
effort to paint her in a certain way. She has
featured in several movies and miniseries, many of which have
drawn boycotts and backlash, including being featured in Jesus Christ Superstar,
(04:17):
where she sings I don't know how to love him.
He's just a man, and I've had so many men before.
I want him, so I love him so all right,
All of that being said, Since her debut two thousand
years ago, Mary Magdalene has been someone who, yes, has
been painted in a variety of different lights, many of
them negative at least in the perspective of those describing her,
(04:40):
and malded to serve those in power and the narratives
that they were trying to enforce. For instance, Pope Gregory
the First declared she was a sinful woman and a
prostitute in five ninety one CE, despite having no evidence
to back up these claims. He said, quote, she whom
Luke calls the sin woman, whom John calls Mary, we
(05:02):
believe to be the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected,
according to Mark. And what did these seven devils signify,
if not all the vices? It is clear, brothers, that
the woman previously used the unjuant to perfume her flesh
and forbidden acts. What she therefore displayed more scandalously, she
was now offering to God in a more praiseworthy manner.
(05:26):
She had coveted with earthly eyes but now through penitence,
these are consumed with tears. She displayed her hair to
set off her face, but now her hair dries her tears.
She had spoken proud things with her mouth, but in
kissing the Lord's feet, she now planted her mouth on
the Redeemer's feet. For every delight therefore she had in herself,
(05:48):
she now immolated herself. She turned the mass of her
crimes to virtues in order to serve God entirely in penance.
So we're going to break this down. This was a
pretty big deal in how people viewed Mary Magdalene. But
notice how he is sexualizing her, specifically for men. How
(06:09):
he says, like, listen, brothers, look what she's doing. A
lot of early Western Christian artwork depicts her naked and
sexualized way as well. But of note, not all sects
of Christianity excepted this view, and some Eastern Orthodox religions
continued to hold her in very high regard. This is
(06:31):
also around the time that the Selected Canon I as
New Testament was being popularized, and it was also around
the same time that the Church shifted against not only
Judaism but also women, a shift that would grow over
the centuries and become when it comes to women, largely sexual.
But we'll talk about this more in a second, but
(06:51):
Mary Magdalene is believed to be Jewish. Throughout history, the
way Mary has been interpreted, often determined by those in
power and popular narratives, has shifted drastically from the symbol
of devotion, to prostitute, to none to mystic, a feminist,
a matriarch. As far back as the third century CE,
(07:13):
there was a concerted effort to discredit her via her
sexuality and womanhood, the sinful temptation, and using their depiction
of her to disempower women at large. Almost all of
this was spearheaded by men. They wanted to keep women
from positions of power, and Mary was a woman who
(07:33):
seemingly had power and was a confidant to Jesus, whoa
but yeah, let's look at what actually is in the Bible.
Mary Magdalen was a woman from a town in Galilee
named Magdala, where fishing was the primary livelihood. She went
on to become a disciple of Jesus and was the
first person to observe his resurrection after staying by the cross.
(07:57):
When Jesus was crucified, his disciples hit as I said,
she is allegedly of Jewish descent and Jewish women often
prepared corpses at the time. She was the first person
to alert the others to the news of this resurrection.
And yeah, she was the only one who didn't kind
of flee after his death. She was one of the
(08:19):
most prominent apostles, though she is not recognized as one.
Here's a passage from Luke quote. Now, after this, Jesus
made his way through towns and villages, preaching and proclaiming
the good news of the Kingdom of God. With him
went the Twelve, as well as certain women who had
been cured of evil spirits and ailments. Mary surnamed the
(08:40):
Magdalen from whom seven demons had gone out, Joanna, the
wife of Herod Stewards, Choosa, Susannah, and several others who
provided for them out of their own resources. So these
women were cured of something and now were respectful enough
to take care of Jesus. And this is where a
lot of stuff gets confused. Previous passage, like the passage
(09:01):
right before, described a woman with a bad name washing Jesus'
feet and being forgiven by him, and as often conflated
with Mary Magdalene, but those studying this do not think
they are the same person. Matthew's account of the same
thing is different and instead tells of a woman preparing
Jesus's body for death. This is the problem with historical
(09:24):
distortion and oral tradition in the Bible. Some passages claim
that the woman was having visions of Jesus' death, visions
the Disciples refused to acknowledge, while other versions use Mary's name,
making a whole confusing mess. The woman with a bad
Name's transgressions are depicted differently depending on what you're reading too,
(09:46):
from sexual to being greedy. Of note, many Christians in
the early days were not literate and depended on oral
tellings that could be warped and shaped, and there were
also a lot of Mary's in the Bible, which helped
add to the confusion.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Yes, because I honestly was thinking about Mary the sister
of Martha too.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I was like, wait, yes, she came up.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yep, yes, she came up in all of this as well.
There is a debate surrounding whether or not Mary Magdalene
is the person to the right of Jesus in the
infamous the Last Supper mural by Leonardo da Vinci. There's
(10:31):
also debate of if that is her, what does her
position at Jesus's right hand side mean. Does that mean
she was his wife? Does that mean she was his confidant,
more trusted, more valued than his twelve male apostles. Some
historians have emphasized that to understand Mary Magdalene, we have
(10:52):
to look at other women in the Bible, particularly those
occupying a sexual space. Also, she was an unmarried woman.
In fifteen eighteen, a French humanist challenged the Western Christian
interpretation of Mary, arguing that she had been mixed up
with other women in the Bible. He eventually was formally
(11:14):
condemned by French theologians. And yeah, there are a lot
of reasons she's controversial. One is she's a woman in
a religious text that seemingly had some type of influence.
It kind of seems reading about this that people were
trying to put her in a very romantic or sexual
role to explain her presence other than she just understood
(11:38):
Jesus and his teachings more than male disciples like that.
That can't be the case. It has to be this
or this. Some claim that even her relationship with Jesus,
if it wasn't sexual or necessarily romantic, there were some
physical aspects to it, like kissing that got distorted over time. Again,
kissing hasn't always been romantic and.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Still right literally, Judas kisses Jesus.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Right like come on. Jesus was often set apart from
other male leaders because he did exhibit behaviors of respect
towards women, including women with sexual histories. Mary's ideas were
also somewhat dangerous to traditional conservative beliefs, so they wanted
to discredit her and suppress her message that favor the
(12:26):
personal over church bureaucracy, and they reduced her from a
spiritual confident of Jesus to an Eurotic repetent sex worker.
There are even more elaborate tellings of her story, weaving
all of these women together into Mary's story. So, for instance,
an example of one of these is she marries John,
(12:47):
who soon leaves her, and then she turns to sex
work and becomes an adulteress and eventually found herself at
Jesus's feet. He did not condemn her, and she saw
the light, so to speak, and she applied ointment to
his feet while weeping. But a lot of these stories
got a lot of traction, So again going back to that,
(13:09):
maybe people weren't literate and they were just hearing this orally.
A lot of those stories sort of became what you
thought was in the Bible, and a lot of stuff
from this time. I know it was a pretty popular
I can't remember what it was exactly, but it was
a satirical work from I think like the thirteenth century.
But it people thought it was not satirical and it
(13:32):
became like a story. People were like, no, that's what
happened in the Bible, and it's like, nope, that was satire.
So I think there was a lot of that going
on as well. In the nineteenth century, historians discovered a
document now known as the Gospel of Mary. It was
(13:52):
for sale at an auction in Cairo. Other fragments were
found over time. It dates back to the second century,
though some argue that it does in fact run alongside
Jesus's life, since it was a recounting of past events,
which itself introduces a whole can of worms. The document
(14:13):
focuses on Mary and how she is the one disciple
that understands Jesus on a spiritual level. And how directly
pits her against some of the other disciples, perhaps Peter,
especially after Mary describes a vision she had after Jesus's
death to the disciples, Peter is pretty much like, sure
a woman would get a vision from Jesus. I don't
(14:38):
think so. So here's a quote. Did Jesus choose her
over us? This draws a sharp buke from another apostle, Levi,
who says, if the Savior made her worthy, who are
you then for your part to reject her? In this document,
she is also the only one to suggest they shared
Jesus's teachings. The rest are afraid that they'd be killed
(15:01):
like he was. It is not officially recognized as gospel
by the church these days. Mary is often used as
the reason why the Capital c Church should allow for
women priests, and in nineteen sixty nine, the Catholic Church
admitted that they were mistaken in their description of Mary
as a sex worker.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I didn't know they came out and said.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
That, yeah, yeah, but it's still you know, like there's
so much different interpretations and people trying to untangle all
of this even to this day. And my friend when
she suggested this, she like, she said, to me, I
had no idea there was any other interpretation. This is
(15:48):
what I have been told. So she wanted to learn
more about her. And I find that really fascinating because
it is still a controversial topic. It is still something
that people are arguing about and trying to interpret or
(16:11):
use and however they think will be the most beneficial
for their beliefs. When I was reading about this, I
did find a lot of articles about the role of
women in churches, women as priests, altered girls, women in
any role. Still controversial, right.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
But it also is a book of Deborah, and they
also took that out, and she was the only noted
prophetess in the Old Testament.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
She was the one that went.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Into battle more often than not, like she was a
bad individual. I think this is the beginning of my
awakening of like something's wrong here. Honestly, Deborah was the one.
And then seeing the Book of Esther was about submitting
to Man, and I was like, that's really interesting that
the books where they're kind of the leaders we pull out.
(17:08):
But as long as they're like, but I'm submitting to Man,
i am following my father in law, or I'm doing
these things, then it'll be kept in there. Then I'm like,
there seems something very misogynistic about this, the.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Layout of this.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yes, yes, And I purposely use the term selecting earlier
when I was saying what they put into the New Testament,
they were selecting and the old and the old, Well
you should we should come back and do Deborah. I
don't know much about her.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
She necesassinated. I guess it's not really a great thing,
but yeah, I would like to learn more. She knives
some people, according to next Just okay.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
All right, I'm ready, I'm ready to learn. But yeah,
just this whole idea of this historical leaving women out
(18:19):
of the story of the Bible if they weren't submissive,
and how we're still seeing that in how women can
participate in church, and just kind of attitudes around women.
In twenty thirteen and twenty fifteen, Pope Francis, who was
viewed as a relatively progressive pope, declared the door to
(18:43):
ordaining female priest was closed. In twenty fifteen, the Synod
of the Family, and I didn't know what a synod was,
but it's basically a council, had only thirty women in
attendance out of the three hundred and sixty in total,
and the women were not allowed to vote, and some
(19:03):
of them spoke out about how their voices are unheard
on issues like contraception and reproductive rights. Some of them
were saying like, we're all on it, but you're not.
We're not talking about it, you're not asking us, kind
of ignoring this whole thing, and essentially kind of this
idea that women can never be on the same level
(19:24):
as men. You could never receive the Holy message. Jesus
never could have trusted a woman as much as or
more than a man. So if Mary Magdalen was somebody
he turned to, that is a very dangerous idea for
this kind of control. And then of course the whole
(19:44):
women are the source of sin thing, right, Yeah, the
Madonna versus the horror thing. I find it interesting that
she's both been painted in the past as the sex worker,
but also in some cases this is a nun are
very like a very bias person. Yes, yes, and we
(20:10):
talked about that, you know, with even how traumatic that
can be when you're a young girl, especially in Bible school,
and they're kind of telling you like, this is women's fault,
look what you've done, and a lot of this is
(20:30):
as the quotes attest painted as very much, well, Jesus
is so forgiving for her sins, and then like stereotypes
of what women are, what women can do, women's proper roles.
If she is this person that was somebody who was
(20:53):
like spiritually on, someone Jesus could talk to, if she's
this person who's the one that stayed at the cross,
then that transgresses those kind of roles of what she
should be doing and where she should be. She can
be the Madonna of the horror. And that's where you know.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
So I guess she is often confused with Martha and
Mary in generous because I know, like the story of
Mary and Martha is the story in which Mary sits
at his feet to listen while Martha goes and prepares
the dinner and does everything. Then complains to Jesus that
Mary's not doing anything, tell her to help me, in
(21:38):
which Jesus says, no, she's doing what is the best
thing to do, which is to sit and listen to me.
And it's like, oh, okay, that's what I remember of
Mary and Martha. Also they helped wash his body that
I remember.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Do yes, yes, like I said, there's a lot of
Mary's and apparently I think there's three mother obviously the
big one, yes, but yeah, there's three specific women that
Mary Magdalene often gets mixed up with, and she's one Mary. Yeah,
(22:17):
as always. I feel like when we're talking about Western Christianity,
the sexuality and virginity big thing, when you're talking about
the Madonna and the horror thing. But just how the
church used that to discredit her. Try that's what they
tried to do, or kind of make a joke out
of her. I feel like that quote from Pope Pope
Gregory was very like elbow in the side.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Like that, because what I was reading about her, Saint
patron Saint. One of the things that is titled to
her is Apostle to the Apostles, which kids called a leadership.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah, that's the thing. That's what my friend was saying, Like,
I can't believe I've never even heard that there's a
possibility she was not only like an equal but above
the twelve.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
That would imply that she is. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Interesting, yeah, but yet still they were like, nah, she's
not worthy.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, no, let's not talk about her. In fact, she's
a sex worker with which in our mind is the worst.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Thing you could write.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Interestingly, though, when I was growing up with learning more
about the Bible in her specifically, I honestly thought, because
we knew based on old Testament ideas that if you
are raped, that the woman is no longer of value
and it was on her as being dirty and the
(23:47):
only way that could be rectified is that if the
person who raped her would marry them and claimed them essentially,
So in my mind I thought partially that might have
been her a burden was that she had been because
she was also not a like a worthy family, so
therefore they couldn't because Dowwy's and all that was all
(24:08):
set up and doing that time as well. So if
she was not worth that in itself, that made her unclean.
So all these things I never really understood that sex
work was not really implied till later, maybe because I was.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
The children's version. Yeah, but growing up.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Understanding how women were treated in those terms literally like
kings can rape women and they have no longer value
and are to be cast out of society. Essentially, I
say that in that way, but even if it's not
on them, it's such a like obviously big injustice in
any way. But like knowing that as a kid, I
(24:47):
was like, that doesn't what makes that them dirty?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
How does that make? Like there's so many levels.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
But in my mind that could have been what Mary
Magdalen's mirror problem was that also that she could have
just been a really beautiful woman.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
There was four yes, and that made her dirty somehow?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yes, absolutely absolutely, And there are many interpretations that would
agree with like every version of what you said. Uh.
I know people like to hang on to the because
it's like the seven. It doesn't say seven deadly sins,
but it's seven demons.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I don't remember that part at all.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I don't know if that was not a part of
my teachings, and that's more of a Catholic teaching, yeah,
because I do not remember her having any demons at all.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Well, and that's the thing though, is they're not sure
if it's her, but it's often attributed to her.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Okay, I know there is a story, yeah, of people
being possessed in Jesus healing, but I don't remember it
being her.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yes, uh I did read about that, but from what
I understand, it was again like there's three women there
and we're not sure which the seven demons necessarily applies
to but she was never like exercised or right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, interesting part I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
It's mostly news to me, so yeah, people are still
researching those, people are still talking about it. I do
think it's important. I think it's really interesting because this
is somebody who has been used by a lot of
(26:34):
people in power to tell a specific story and to
maintain that power. But also more and more people want
to know other interpretations of it are perhaps the more
accurate interpretations of it. So I find that really fascinating.
She's clearly had a staying power in some ways good,
(26:55):
in some ways bad. But people are still people in
organizations are push for change to have women's voices heard
in churches. I saw a lot of resources about that,
and many of them cited you know, story of Mary
Magdalen got me thinking, or are sometimes men just being
(27:18):
like I'm not I didn't have I couldn't believe that
I reached a certain point where I could be an
alter boy and my sister could be an alter girl,
Like it didn't make sense to me, like having those
kind of moments. So people are pushing for that change.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, I'd love to see it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, Yeah, well listeners, if we left anything out, if
there's something that you would like us to come back
and talk about, if you want us to talk about Deborah,
let us know. You can email us at Hello at
stuff Wenever Told You dot com. You can find us
on Blue Scott Mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram and
(27:57):
TikTok at stuff I Never Told You or on YouTube.
We have some merchants at Coompon Bureau and we have
a book you can get wherever you get your books.
Thanks as always too our superb dis Christina Executive Priuscine
and a contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
for listen Stuff Never Told You use production by heart Radio.
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