July 15, 2026 • 32 mins
Codependency is a complicated, controversial topic that no one quite agrees upon. Anney and Samantha unpack why this is such a complex issue and how the understanding of it has evolved over time, especially when it comes to gender norms and women.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Sanny and SMITHA. I'm welcome stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I never told your production of iHeart Radio, and today
we are tackling a topic that I It's a real
complicated mess I feel like I'm about to poke a
horn's nest. It really wasn't my attention. And actually, what
(00:30):
I'm going to say at the start of this is,
please listen to the whole thing before you write a message,
because I Am going to talk about a lot of
the concerns. So yeah, just please wait and then you
can send your messages all you want. But yes, I
didn't think it was going to be so intense medically,
(00:58):
because yes, today we are talking about co dependency. This
is on my list of topics that I'm still working
through related to being ceerbated, because it was a conversation
that came out after that happened, which was months and
months ago, by the way, But I am determined to
(01:18):
get through every topic on that list, and this was one.
And another thing to say here is do not take
any medical advice from a podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
I've ever ever, don't ever do it.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Do not try to self diagnose based on this podcast
if some of it resonates with you and you're concerned,
seek professional advice, but we are not experts. We research
as best we can and present topics as best we can,
but we are not in that field. This is more informative,
But please don't take it as some kind of diagnosis
(01:59):
for yourself, because this topic in particular is really really messy,
and a lot of people are circulating misinformation and disinformation
about it online, further complicated by the fact that the
symptoms are all over the place depending on the source,
and that relationships are messy and hard to pin down.
They're kind of hard to put into scientific terms. It's
(02:21):
one of those things that people are throwing around and overusing,
kind of diluting what it really is and how serious
it can be.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
You can diagnose.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Fictional characters and relationships as I did, but not yourself.
You should not take this episode as that, and as always,
be careful where you get your information from, because I
ran into a lot of sites that were offering ways
to get out of codependent relationships or break those behaviors
for a price, and they just kind of rubbed me
(02:52):
the wrong way because the information they presented often was
not backed in science or evidence or even general understand
in the psychology community. So don't get me wrong, a
reputable professional deserves to be compensated for their time. But
it just a lot of it seemed more scammy to me.
And this situation is rife with mis and disinformation, as
(03:14):
I said, so be careful about that.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Also, these sites seem.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
To be very like something is wrong with you and
here's why, and it's die by the way.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Pay us money. I just don't like that.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I don't like that, And hopefully by the end of
this episode you'll be more informed and can recognize why
that whole thing that attitudes should be treated with skepticism.
So quick content warning for this we are going to
be talking about addiction and briefly mentions of domestic violence,
so we're not going to go too in depth. I
(03:48):
would recommend seeing our past episode on attachment styles because
that is related to this conversation, and probably we've done
a lot of other things that are related. This sort
of branches out well.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, I think they're just in relationship conversations. We've talked
about it, like the best friend thing.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Do we've talked about yes, friends.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yes, And we are going to touch on that because
it usually people are talking about a romantic relationship when
they say code dependency, but it can manifest in any
kind of relationship, and it can manifest in any number
of ways. So yes, when people say codependency, they are
primarily referring to a dysfunctional relationship where one person acts
(04:34):
as the provider or the giver slash rescuer, putting the
other person's needs above their own, while the other person
operates as the taker slash victim. While this is typically
used to describe romantic relationship dynamics, it can appear in
all types of relationships. Yes, between parent and child, or
family members or friends. The phrase relationship addiction is sometimes
(04:58):
used to describe this as well, but from what I gather,
it's kind of frowned upon in the psychology community. That
being said, there is a lot of debate about what
codependency is. As of now, there is no clinical diagnosis
for it, nor a personality disorder classification for it, and
in fact, some psychologists think that we should.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Retire the term entirely.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Over the years, the usage has evolved, which I think
is part of the issue. At first, it solely described
a relationship that was unbalanced due to a substance abuse problem.
Or addiction, first used by substance abuse communities in the
nineteen eighties, but then people start to use it for
any kind of lopsided or enabling relationship. This is related
(05:44):
to a lot of other terms too, some of them
that I think are better at describing the behavior in
this type of relationship. And yes, it is used colloquially
also outside of psychology to describe an inbalance relationship or
even a really close So that's when you see it online.
I think a lot of times that's what people are
(06:04):
usually using it as, so keep that in mind as well.
Early usage also evolved out of familial survival roles, as
coined by Sharon Wegschneider Cruz. She outlined four roles, the
family hero who takes on a lot of responsibility, the
family scapegoat who takes on a lot of the blame,
the lost child who is largely outside the family for
(06:27):
whatever reason, and the family mascot who does inappropriate things
for attention. So that's sort of where it all came from,
all right, that weird. I feel like family mascot denotes
something else. Thought when I first saw that, I thought
it was going to be more of a like a
jokester type.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, not in the inappropriate way.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Like I guess you could be an inappropriate jokester, but
I was thinking more of the like clown.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, the one that like, oh that's so and so sun,
like that's the son. Yeah, in type of like that's
so and so family. He's a part of that family
type of thing. When you write, you know, so that's
not how okay, Wayne, that's negative.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Okay, Yeah, same had the same reaction, keep going okay.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So all relationships do have a give and take and needs,
but what we're talking about here is an uneven one
where a highly functional caretaker enables the destructive and or
self sabotaging behavior of another, and it's constantly put in
position of caretaking and looking after them. In the case
of a partner with substance abuse, this could look like
(07:32):
facilitating their addiction by covering for them. So the long
held belief was that the caregiving partner should emotionally distance
themselves so the other person can experience the negative consequences
of their actions.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
But again see.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Above, we are not a medical podcast. Addiction is complicated
and can be dangerous, just as so bring up can
be dangerous. If you don't do it right. It can
take time and medical supervision, and all of this is
very simplified take of a belief some held and some
continue to hold. It's also really difficult for people to
watch someone they love struggling with an addiction. But in
(08:09):
terms of codependency, the enabler is doing more harm than good.
This does not mean stepping away entirely necessarily. It just means,
in this type of codependent relationship, it's more than just
taking care of someone who is struggling. But I'm guessing
already you can see why psychologists fight about this, and
(08:30):
this is why I want you to wait until the
end of the episode before you send your angry emails.
So the caregiver in this equation usually exhibits traits like
low self esteem, an extreme need to please, excessive self
imposed responsibility, and poor boundary making and enforcing skills. They
often are overly harsh on themselves. They're perfectionists. They may
(08:52):
have some version of the savior complex or a need
to rescue or save people.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
They need to be neat.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
All of this can lead to burnout, exhaustion, frustration, and
other physical and mental health issues, including addiction and suicidality.
The takers, on the other hand, usually have some kind
of addiction or mental health issue, emotional immaturity, and someone
to help enable them. Unless they tackle these things. Unless
(09:21):
they step outside of that relationship, they might lash out
at the giver as being clingy or controlling. People in
codependent relationships frequently have a pass of childhood trauma, or
they grew up around addiction and or mental illness, or
in houses where self sacrifice and emotional repression were normalized.
(09:44):
They themselves might have anxiety or depression. And yeah, attachment
styles can play a role in this too, and in fact,
that's a really big theory right now that we'll touch
on at the end. However, anyone can find themselves in
this type relationship. As mentioned, it has never been scientifically
(10:05):
accepted or proven, though there's no evidence behind it, and
some in the field believe that it stigmatizes care and
love in relationships are at the very least ignores the
fact that humans scientifically do form strong emotional bonds that
do not usually break when times get tough, like with addiction.
(10:26):
They argue that it's natural instinctive to care for a
loved one who is struggling to want to care for them. Obviously,
if it's repeated behavior, that's a factor. If it is harmful,
that matters too. Sometimes you do have to detach or
distance yourself. But the argument is that codependency isn't a pathology.
It shouldn't be treated that way. It's a very human
(10:49):
thing that can occur in relationships. It has traditionally been
coded as feminine, to the desire to care for a
loved one has long been devalued and stigmatized. So a
lot of people argue that's part of the reason why
we need to change how we talk about this. Relationships
can fluctuate on top of that, sometimes one person needs
(11:10):
more support and then it shifts to the other.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Person and another thing.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
There is judgment around addiction that's going on, and this too,
like if it was cancer instead people would be judged
for leaving, you would be expected to stay. There is
(11:35):
another aspect of this conversation that we need to mention
that sometimes in these codependent relationships, the taker purposely builds
a trauma bond to keep the giver from leaving. A
recent study suggested, based on his findings, that a lot
of the framework behind codependency research was outdated blaming the
(11:56):
giver slash enabler or the taker for the learned helplessness,
when instead all of these relationship dynamics were hiding abusive
relationships behind mental health. According to this research, we should
be talking more about the manipulation of trauma bonds and
coercive attachment. So this research challenges the idea that abuse
(12:19):
is what forms the trauma bond, but that the perpetrator
deliberately builds an attachment before the abuse, and the enabling
in this case is not out of a place of
misguided good intentions, but a fear of violence or that
it came from grooming. So basically, these researchers think codependency
(12:40):
was largely miscategorized or misused and can be very victim
blaming and is actually hiding a much bigger real problem.
With all of that in mind, it makes sense that
the numbers for codependent folks are all over the place,
with some people flat out saying there are none because
(13:00):
it isn't a thing. Codependency doesn't exist. Long statistic put
it at forty million Americans, most of them women. This
was from a research paper and they use the term
labeled as codependent and it's from nineteen ninety eight, so
a grain of salt with that. Another paper I found
said that actually the numbers between men and women are
(13:22):
pretty much equal, and the scale might even tip more
towards men, but that one was from twenty seventeen. An
analysis of some of the numbers over at Psychology Today
theorizes that this might be because of societal gender roles.
Women are conditioned to be more caring, to put others first,
(13:43):
so in a codependent situation, that conditioning might get amped
up and become unhealthy. That might be why women have
traditionally been what people think of when they think of codependent.
This adds another complex layer too, of pathologizing when there
is this societal reason for why it has been gendered.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
It doesn't mean that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
There's anything wrong with a woman doing this of caring,
but rather that we should look at societal forces and
pressures creating these situations. And there has been a lot
of conversation recently from women breaking out of these ideals
that they have to be a martyr, put everyone else
first and sacrifice their own well being. We've talked about
(14:28):
that on the show. We've had some book clubs and
stuff about you know, I realized I'm in an unhappy marriage.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Might as well get divorced.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I don't want to teach my kids right that this
is that martyring yourself and being unhappy.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah, we talked about that with incompetence weaponized and competence
Yeah a little bit.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, yeah, So I'm glad that we're having those conversations.
Men on the other hand, and yes, this conversation is
very heteronormative and binary, and it has a lot of
gender generalations in it. They usually manifest these societal expectations
in a codependent relationship through the messaging of Men are
(15:09):
the protectors and providers, which again not always a bad thing,
but it can reduce someone down to just how he
can save her, how it makes him look, and not
what she actually needs. So those are all That's a
lot of stuff there. There are no agreed upon symptoms
(15:32):
or signs, but here are some that frequently come up
in the discussion. Lack of life are purpose outside of
a relationship, seeking external happiness from another person and only
that other person. One person's needs comes first, always, partner idealization,
(15:52):
ignoring faults or pretending that those faults don't exist, enabling
bad behavior and poor choices. Again, this can be messy
if we're talking about domestic violent situations though, controlling behaviors,
taking on guilt, too much responsibility and ability to enforce boundaries,
or state needs, overreliance on someone else, fear of abandonment.
(16:16):
That's a big one. Fixation on fixing others. And here's
what I thought was interesting, sharing the same mood and emotions,
because this can be normal like that, if you're hanging
out with somebody, that can be totally normal. But if
they're not actually yours and you're just taking them on,
not so much. If you can't decide things separately is
(16:40):
another one too. You should check in with someone when
making choices that concern them, But if neither of you
can decide, or a guilt comes with making an individual decision,
could be cause for doing some introspection.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
There seems like a lot of blurred lines when it
comes to like healthy relationships, yes, empathetic individuals, and also.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Codependency in a bad form.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I feel like some of these things are also like
this is what the qualities we want of a man,
But then it looks like it's too much sometimes like
it being my best friend thing or my only friend
which we've seen and can work, like not necessarily healthy,
Like I think I'm thinking about my parents specifically, specifically
my mother my father. Actually I've never seen them in
(17:29):
my adult and childhood, my adulthood. My mom has done more,
thank goodness, but it's with her sister. But before she
had no friends. I didn't know she had friends. The
only people she talked to on the phone were family
members and church goers, and they didn't necessarily hang out
all the time. And my dad absolutely not, but he
(17:50):
absolutely wouldn't want to on a regular basis.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
It's kind of interesting, but at this.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Point they are, to me, one of the more successful
marriage just codependency.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yes, Yeah, And I think you've kind of hit the
nail on the head, is that this is really blurry,
Like a lot of these lines are really blurry, and
it's hard to say at the end of the day,
is it HEALTHI er is it not healthy?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Is ultimately what the question is, Like does it work
for you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
And I think that's kind of when we talked about
our own what we don't want mm hmm. You and
I specifically when we've talked about that, especially after seeing
our parents going through things, or you know, seeing other
friends going through things and being like, absolutely not. And
it's like my mother's marriage. She is happy and content
and wants that for her children. In my mind, that's
(18:41):
a curse. Why would you say that to me? It's
kind of that level of like, yeah, her regrets, her
love and what she has outweigh her regrets. But she
has those regrets and has told me these regrets have
lashed out with these regrets. I've seen that with friends
as well, that I'm like, y'all, really like this is
(19:05):
this what you had hoped for? And of course again
that's me being judgmental and one thing is to me,
that's not satisfying, But to them it was exactly what
they wanted or had said they had hoped. Now I
can't look into their mind and heart and see if
that's really true, and maybe that to them it is true,
and on a deeper level it's not true, you know
(19:26):
what I mean?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Who is to say?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But it's interesting to me because when we talk about codependency,
it is kind of a negative take on what we say,
like don't you don't want to be codependent on people?
Blah blah blah. But yet some of these things once
upon a time was the dream.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yes, absolutely romanticized.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Yeah, and even for the best friend structure, like you
see people talking about their best friend that they've had
this childhood and like how they can't do anything without
each other, who they have had babies at the same
time as each other, tried purposely like all these things
or have like try to be in the same place
in their lives so they can continue that. They're like,
I also don't want that for me specifically, you.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Know, Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I think it's like in a lot of our media,
we've been sold this very intense relationship and that means
that it's so powerful, it's so intense. But at the
same time, when I was doing this research, it is
fascinating to me how many people are so against this
(20:34):
idea because they think it was demonizing women's care generally
women's care of We were saying it's codependent, like it's
a bad thing. As you said that you usually applied
to women taking care of people, And I do think
there's an unhealthy version of this, But.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I'm also.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I think that it might have been used in a
way to kind of put women down and say you're
making you're making this problem. Yeah, but they're just trying
to care for somebody the best that they can in
their life.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah, especially like with the hand that they've been dealt,
whether it's not understanding again like being told this is
the dream, this is what you want it to be.
Like this whole trad wife phenomenon is a resurgence of.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
That in.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
A different way with capitalism involved.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
But like what we see is now the resurging of
a new old dream. Is that same idea that once
upon a time was fed this is what you're supposed
to have, and now it kind of backtracked And we've
talked about this where like it's the understanding that if
you're truly fighting for the rights for someone, you're fighting
(21:57):
for whatever right they want, like that they choose to have,
and for those who are happy to be in those
in a way that hopefully doesn't cause them trauma or
isn't read out of trauma, then great. But at the
same time, this pushback of like there's an like that
same blurred line, it's like is it good?
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Is it bad?
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Who was to say?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
And that was one thing I kept grappling with when
I was reading this, because we've also talked a lot
about you can reach a point where you do need
to step back, it's not healthy for you anymore, and
maybe you need that person to want it for themselves
in the case of something like addiction. Right, So it's
(22:39):
it's just really complicated, Like this whole conversation, I think
it's been reduced far too much because there's just so
much going on and every relationship has its own story,
and I don't know, there's just something about it where
I don't feel comfortable at all giving any kind of
(23:02):
definitive right, this is what it is exactly. Yeah, yeah, which,
speaking of I cannot reiterate enough. We are not a
medical podcast. If addiction is involved, please seek out a professional.
But if you're worried you might be in a codependent relationship,
(23:23):
there are a couple things you can do, and it's
a lot of stuff you might expect. Obviously, it does
depend on the type of relationship you're in, and pretty
much all of it, all of this advice is for
the giver, which makes sense, but I can also see
it playing into the problem. But anyway, here are a
few work on self esteem and boundaries, exercise, healthy eating,
(23:46):
solo activities, introspection always a good one. Self acceptance, working
on that. Solutions that involve we instead of putting everything
on yourself, so it's both of you solution and focus
on support versus control. Make sure that you can separate
your goals and desirrus from the other persons. They might
(24:08):
align a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Of the time.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
It doesn't mean they're like completely separate, but just make
sure you kind of no practice asserting yourself and they
have like examples online. This doesn't have to feel as
aggressive as some of it might sound. It's just like, well,
what if we did this? I have another suggestion and
challenging negative thoughts. So I have all these but I
(24:31):
once again I got to say these are more complicated
than a bullet point, and especially when you take into
account gender dynamics. I think there was one that was
about like, essentially because women have been socialized to take
care of things and they still statistically do a lot
(24:52):
of the domestic and care work in the US. That
I mean, you can assert yourself all you want, but
you'll probably still be doing a lot more. I mean,
I would hope not, but there's a lot of cases
where I can see you getting frustrated and you're going
to do the dishes anyway, right, even if you've made
that point right, So it's not as simple and as
easy as Oh, I have never thought of that. I
(25:13):
don't mean we all know this stuff, so I don't
want it to sound trite or anything like that. It's
not to say it's not useful. I work on a
lot of this stuff all the time, but I just
I think it's more complicated, and especially if you're bringing
in something like domestic violence or abuse or whatever the situation,
(25:36):
that's going to change how these things play out. And
there are specific examples online of how you can work
towards implementing these things into your relationship and in how
you view yourself.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
So if it's.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Something you want to look into, I would encourage you
to make sure, as I said at the top, that
it's a good source, because I've found a lot that
I thought we're just trying to sell you something in
a way that I did not appreciate, but it exists,
so you can look that up. And to wrap us up,
(26:14):
I should mention there is a new push for something
called pro dependence. Here's a quote about it from Psychology Today.
Pro Dependence is an attachment based theory of human dependency,
which by definition states that those who partner with an
active addict are loving people who may be caught in
circumstances beyond their ability to healthfully cope. Moreover, their desire
(26:39):
to help the addict and all related actions toward helping
the addict demonstrate nothing more than a normal and healthy
attempt to remain connected to a failing loved one while
facing extraordinarily difficult circumstances. So this is just trying to
take out the.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Kind of negative m hm.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
You're beer wrong for doing this, you're wrong for caring
about this person. There was also a point I thought
I included it, but I don't. Maybe I did say it,
but I'll say it again. A lot of times, you know,
addiction can happen slowly, and maybe it's not there when
you get in a relationship too. That's not to really
(27:17):
compare one is better than the other, but that's just
to say, like, I feel like people are always framing
it as you knew what you were getting into, and
that's not always the case, and even if you knew,
you might not have known completely. And even so it's
just a very judgy take. And so I don't really
(27:38):
know what pro dependence is really new. I don't know
where it's going to go. But I'm glad at least
these conversations are happening and that we're not framing it
as such a negative thing to care about people.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I don't know. No, Yeah, it was a lot to
navigate through.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I have to say, this is a big conversation, especially
when you start breaking down types of relationships, types of individuals,
and what it looks like here. Because you're right when
you talk about addictive personalities with co mobilities that do
intersect with code independency. It's a whole different conversation. It's
a whole new support group that you have to create
(28:23):
because it is like very specialized, and it needs to
be because there are differences and minute details that make
a giant change in the way treatment is given if
there is indeed need for treatment. And again, some people,
as like the new phrase goes, they want to be here,
They're exactly where they want to be again.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
I like my parents.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I reference that's exactly where my mother chose and would
choose to be again and get it again. And I
think as much as I don't love that relationship, like
for myself. I love their relationship because they are able
to work it out. Of course, no relationship is perfect.
I don't want that or myself ever if I ever
get to the point that I don't have friends or
I feel like, like, let's say I were to have children,
(29:05):
which is almost too late right now for me unless
I adopt or whatever, and they were look and ask
did you ever have friends? Because I did not think
my mom would name names of like who and not
realizing that these were friends once upon a time because
she hadn't talked two in years and years and years,
because all she talks to is her families. So like,
that would not be the thing that I would want.
I would want, you know, them, to know and see
(29:26):
these other people in understanding that the yes, I had
a different life once.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, every conversation we have has this wrinkle, in my opinion,
But you can't remove people from the environment they grew
up in exactly. So I can look at my parents'
relationship and be, you know, have all of these personal
I don't want that, and I don't honestly sometimes I'd
(29:56):
be like, I don't think this is good, but they
grew up in that, and that's like you said, that
was the goal and they were happy.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
So it's hard to remove that.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
From any situation, right, It's really easy to judge.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
This is what I've basically took away from this.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Is that all of these situations I was reading about
are complicated and people have felt that they can judge
them from the outside without giving it any kind of
real thought other than that's so sad, But people care
(30:39):
about people. When I was reading this, I kind of
took away from it that the concern is when the
tendencies are extreme. That's what I would say, like a
really extreme and perhaps consistent because as humans, we do
care about people. We worry about people. That's completely natural.
(31:02):
But when it's negatively impacting your life and your health
over a long term, that's when I think it's time
to ask the questions. Because I did read some articles
about people who had a loved one who had cancer
or had some kind of illness that was debilitating and
kind of constant, but they were saying the difference was,
(31:24):
you know, the worry was always there, but it didn't
completely like they weren't completely subordinate to it, like their
whole personality and life and everything didn't go away. Because
of it, but they were worried and it became a
huge part of their life because you care about that person, right,
(31:46):
but you still held on to who you are exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Well, listeners, now it's your time to send your angry
emails if you have a hopefully not hopefully I did
an okay job on this, but please let us know
if you have any thoughts, if you have any experiences
you would like to share, or any clarifications or resources
(32:17):
we would love to hear from you. You can email
us at Hello at Stuffannever Told You dot com. You
can find us on Blue Sky and mom Stuff podcast,
or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff One Never Told You.
We're also on YouTube. We have some merchandise atcom Bureau,
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer
Rima and our executive producer Maya. Thank you and thanks
(32:38):
to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You production
by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
you can check out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or where you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Sanny and SMITHA. I'm welcome stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I never told your production of iHeart Radio, and today
we are tackling a topic that I It's a real
complicated mess I feel like I'm about to poke a
horn's nest. It really wasn't my attention. And actually, what
(00:30):
I'm going to say at the start of this is,
please listen to the whole thing before you write a message,
because I Am going to talk about a lot of
the concerns. So yeah, just please wait and then you
can send your messages all you want. But yes, I
didn't think it was going to be so intense medically,
(00:58):
because yes, today we are talking about co dependency. This
is on my list of topics that I'm still working
through related to being ceerbated, because it was a conversation
that came out after that happened, which was months and
months ago, by the way, But I am determined to
(01:18):
get through every topic on that list, and this was one.
And another thing to say here is do not take
any medical advice from a podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
I've ever ever, don't ever do it.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Do not try to self diagnose based on this podcast
if some of it resonates with you and you're concerned,
seek professional advice, but we are not experts. We research
as best we can and present topics as best we can,
but we are not in that field. This is more informative,
But please don't take it as some kind of diagnosis
(01:59):
for yourself, because this topic in particular is really really messy,
and a lot of people are circulating misinformation and disinformation
about it online, further complicated by the fact that the
symptoms are all over the place depending on the source,
and that relationships are messy and hard to pin down.
They're kind of hard to put into scientific terms. It's
(02:21):
one of those things that people are throwing around and overusing,
kind of diluting what it really is and how serious
it can be.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
You can diagnose.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Fictional characters and relationships as I did, but not yourself.
You should not take this episode as that, and as always,
be careful where you get your information from, because I
ran into a lot of sites that were offering ways
to get out of codependent relationships or break those behaviors
for a price, and they just kind of rubbed me
(02:52):
the wrong way because the information they presented often was
not backed in science or evidence or even general understand
in the psychology community. So don't get me wrong, a
reputable professional deserves to be compensated for their time. But
it just a lot of it seemed more scammy to me.
And this situation is rife with mis and disinformation, as
(03:14):
I said, so be careful about that.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Also, these sites seem.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
To be very like something is wrong with you and
here's why, and it's die by the way.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Pay us money. I just don't like that.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I don't like that, And hopefully by the end of
this episode you'll be more informed and can recognize why
that whole thing that attitudes should be treated with skepticism.
So quick content warning for this we are going to
be talking about addiction and briefly mentions of domestic violence,
so we're not going to go too in depth. I
(03:48):
would recommend seeing our past episode on attachment styles because
that is related to this conversation, and probably we've done
a lot of other things that are related. This sort
of branches out well.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, I think they're just in relationship conversations. We've talked
about it, like the best friend thing.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Do we've talked about yes, friends.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yes, And we are going to touch on that because
it usually people are talking about a romantic relationship when
they say code dependency, but it can manifest in any
kind of relationship, and it can manifest in any number
of ways. So yes, when people say codependency, they are
primarily referring to a dysfunctional relationship where one person acts
(04:34):
as the provider or the giver slash rescuer, putting the
other person's needs above their own, while the other person
operates as the taker slash victim. While this is typically
used to describe romantic relationship dynamics, it can appear in
all types of relationships. Yes, between parent and child, or
family members or friends. The phrase relationship addiction is sometimes
(04:58):
used to describe this as well, but from what I gather,
it's kind of frowned upon in the psychology community. That
being said, there is a lot of debate about what
codependency is. As of now, there is no clinical diagnosis
for it, nor a personality disorder classification for it, and
in fact, some psychologists think that we should.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Retire the term entirely.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Over the years, the usage has evolved, which I think
is part of the issue. At first, it solely described
a relationship that was unbalanced due to a substance abuse problem.
Or addiction, first used by substance abuse communities in the
nineteen eighties, but then people start to use it for
any kind of lopsided or enabling relationship. This is related
(05:44):
to a lot of other terms too, some of them
that I think are better at describing the behavior in
this type of relationship. And yes, it is used colloquially
also outside of psychology to describe an inbalance relationship or
even a really close So that's when you see it online.
I think a lot of times that's what people are
(06:04):
usually using it as, so keep that in mind as well.
Early usage also evolved out of familial survival roles, as
coined by Sharon Wegschneider Cruz. She outlined four roles, the
family hero who takes on a lot of responsibility, the
family scapegoat who takes on a lot of the blame,
the lost child who is largely outside the family for
(06:27):
whatever reason, and the family mascot who does inappropriate things
for attention. So that's sort of where it all came from,
all right, that weird. I feel like family mascot denotes
something else. Thought when I first saw that, I thought
it was going to be more of a like a
jokester type.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Yeah, not in the inappropriate way.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Like I guess you could be an inappropriate jokester, but
I was thinking more of the like clown.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Yeah, the one that like, oh that's so and so sun,
like that's the son. Yeah, in type of like that's
so and so family. He's a part of that family
type of thing. When you write, you know, so that's
not how okay, Wayne, that's negative.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Okay, Yeah, same had the same reaction, keep going okay.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So all relationships do have a give and take and needs,
but what we're talking about here is an uneven one
where a highly functional caretaker enables the destructive and or
self sabotaging behavior of another, and it's constantly put in
position of caretaking and looking after them. In the case
of a partner with substance abuse, this could look like
(07:32):
facilitating their addiction by covering for them. So the long
held belief was that the caregiving partner should emotionally distance
themselves so the other person can experience the negative consequences
of their actions.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
But again see.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Above, we are not a medical podcast. Addiction is complicated
and can be dangerous, just as so bring up can
be dangerous. If you don't do it right. It can
take time and medical supervision, and all of this is
very simplified take of a belief some held and some
continue to hold. It's also really difficult for people to
watch someone they love struggling with an addiction. But in
(08:09):
terms of codependency, the enabler is doing more harm than good.
This does not mean stepping away entirely necessarily. It just means,
in this type of codependent relationship, it's more than just
taking care of someone who is struggling. But I'm guessing
already you can see why psychologists fight about this, and
(08:30):
this is why I want you to wait until the
end of the episode before you send your angry emails.
So the caregiver in this equation usually exhibits traits like
low self esteem, an extreme need to please, excessive self
imposed responsibility, and poor boundary making and enforcing skills. They
often are overly harsh on themselves. They're perfectionists. They may
(08:52):
have some version of the savior complex or a need
to rescue or save people.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
They need to be neat.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
All of this can lead to burnout, exhaustion, frustration, and
other physical and mental health issues, including addiction and suicidality.
The takers, on the other hand, usually have some kind
of addiction or mental health issue, emotional immaturity, and someone
to help enable them. Unless they tackle these things. Unless
(09:21):
they step outside of that relationship, they might lash out
at the giver as being clingy or controlling. People in
codependent relationships frequently have a pass of childhood trauma, or
they grew up around addiction and or mental illness, or
in houses where self sacrifice and emotional repression were normalized.
(09:44):
They themselves might have anxiety or depression. And yeah, attachment
styles can play a role in this too, and in fact,
that's a really big theory right now that we'll touch
on at the end. However, anyone can find themselves in
this type relationship. As mentioned, it has never been scientifically
(10:05):
accepted or proven, though there's no evidence behind it, and
some in the field believe that it stigmatizes care and
love in relationships are at the very least ignores the
fact that humans scientifically do form strong emotional bonds that
do not usually break when times get tough, like with addiction.
(10:26):
They argue that it's natural instinctive to care for a
loved one who is struggling to want to care for them. Obviously,
if it's repeated behavior, that's a factor. If it is harmful,
that matters too. Sometimes you do have to detach or
distance yourself. But the argument is that codependency isn't a pathology.
It shouldn't be treated that way. It's a very human
(10:49):
thing that can occur in relationships. It has traditionally been
coded as feminine, to the desire to care for a
loved one has long been devalued and stigmatized. So a
lot of people argue that's part of the reason why
we need to change how we talk about this. Relationships
can fluctuate on top of that, sometimes one person needs
(11:10):
more support and then it shifts to the other.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Person and another thing.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
There is judgment around addiction that's going on, and this too,
like if it was cancer instead people would be judged
for leaving, you would be expected to stay. There is
(11:35):
another aspect of this conversation that we need to mention
that sometimes in these codependent relationships, the taker purposely builds
a trauma bond to keep the giver from leaving. A
recent study suggested, based on his findings, that a lot
of the framework behind codependency research was outdated blaming the
(11:56):
giver slash enabler or the taker for the learned helplessness,
when instead all of these relationship dynamics were hiding abusive
relationships behind mental health. According to this research, we should
be talking more about the manipulation of trauma bonds and
coercive attachment. So this research challenges the idea that abuse
(12:19):
is what forms the trauma bond, but that the perpetrator
deliberately builds an attachment before the abuse, and the enabling
in this case is not out of a place of
misguided good intentions, but a fear of violence or that
it came from grooming. So basically, these researchers think codependency
(12:40):
was largely miscategorized or misused and can be very victim
blaming and is actually hiding a much bigger real problem.
With all of that in mind, it makes sense that
the numbers for codependent folks are all over the place,
with some people flat out saying there are none because
(13:00):
it isn't a thing. Codependency doesn't exist. Long statistic put
it at forty million Americans, most of them women. This
was from a research paper and they use the term
labeled as codependent and it's from nineteen ninety eight, so
a grain of salt with that. Another paper I found
said that actually the numbers between men and women are
(13:22):
pretty much equal, and the scale might even tip more
towards men, but that one was from twenty seventeen. An
analysis of some of the numbers over at Psychology Today
theorizes that this might be because of societal gender roles.
Women are conditioned to be more caring, to put others first,
(13:43):
so in a codependent situation, that conditioning might get amped
up and become unhealthy. That might be why women have
traditionally been what people think of when they think of codependent.
This adds another complex layer too, of pathologizing when there
is this societal reason for why it has been gendered.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
It doesn't mean that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
There's anything wrong with a woman doing this of caring,
but rather that we should look at societal forces and
pressures creating these situations. And there has been a lot
of conversation recently from women breaking out of these ideals
that they have to be a martyr, put everyone else
first and sacrifice their own well being. We've talked about
(14:28):
that on the show. We've had some book clubs and
stuff about you know, I realized I'm in an unhappy marriage.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Might as well get divorced.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
I don't want to teach my kids right that this
is that martyring yourself and being unhappy.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah, we talked about that with incompetence weaponized and competence
Yeah a little bit.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, yeah, So I'm glad that we're having those conversations.
Men on the other hand, and yes, this conversation is
very heteronormative and binary, and it has a lot of
gender generalations in it. They usually manifest these societal expectations
in a codependent relationship through the messaging of Men are
(15:09):
the protectors and providers, which again not always a bad thing,
but it can reduce someone down to just how he
can save her, how it makes him look, and not
what she actually needs. So those are all That's a
lot of stuff there. There are no agreed upon symptoms
(15:32):
or signs, but here are some that frequently come up
in the discussion. Lack of life are purpose outside of
a relationship, seeking external happiness from another person and only
that other person. One person's needs comes first, always, partner idealization,
(15:52):
ignoring faults or pretending that those faults don't exist, enabling
bad behavior and poor choices. Again, this can be messy
if we're talking about domestic violent situations though, controlling behaviors,
taking on guilt, too much responsibility and ability to enforce boundaries,
or state needs, overreliance on someone else, fear of abandonment.
(16:16):
That's a big one. Fixation on fixing others. And here's
what I thought was interesting, sharing the same mood and emotions,
because this can be normal like that, if you're hanging
out with somebody, that can be totally normal. But if
they're not actually yours and you're just taking them on,
not so much. If you can't decide things separately is
(16:40):
another one too. You should check in with someone when
making choices that concern them, But if neither of you
can decide, or a guilt comes with making an individual decision,
could be cause for doing some introspection.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
There seems like a lot of blurred lines when it
comes to like healthy relationships, yes, empathetic individuals, and also.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Codependency in a bad form.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I feel like some of these things are also like
this is what the qualities we want of a man,
But then it looks like it's too much sometimes like
it being my best friend thing or my only friend
which we've seen and can work, like not necessarily healthy,
Like I think I'm thinking about my parents specifically, specifically
my mother my father. Actually I've never seen them in
(17:29):
my adult and childhood, my adulthood. My mom has done more,
thank goodness, but it's with her sister. But before she
had no friends. I didn't know she had friends. The
only people she talked to on the phone were family
members and church goers, and they didn't necessarily hang out
all the time. And my dad absolutely not, but he
(17:50):
absolutely wouldn't want to on a regular basis.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
It's kind of interesting, but at this.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Point they are, to me, one of the more successful
marriage just codependency.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yes, Yeah, And I think you've kind of hit the
nail on the head, is that this is really blurry,
Like a lot of these lines are really blurry, and
it's hard to say at the end of the day,
is it HEALTHI er is it not healthy?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Is ultimately what the question is, Like does it work
for you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
And I think that's kind of when we talked about
our own what we don't want mm hmm. You and
I specifically when we've talked about that, especially after seeing
our parents going through things, or you know, seeing other
friends going through things and being like, absolutely not. And
it's like my mother's marriage. She is happy and content
and wants that for her children. In my mind, that's
(18:41):
a curse. Why would you say that to me? It's
kind of that level of like, yeah, her regrets, her
love and what she has outweigh her regrets. But she
has those regrets and has told me these regrets have
lashed out with these regrets. I've seen that with friends
as well, that I'm like, y'all, really like this is
(19:05):
this what you had hoped for? And of course again
that's me being judgmental and one thing is to me,
that's not satisfying, But to them it was exactly what
they wanted or had said they had hoped. Now I
can't look into their mind and heart and see if
that's really true, and maybe that to them it is true,
and on a deeper level it's not true, you know
(19:26):
what I mean?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Who is to say?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But it's interesting to me because when we talk about codependency,
it is kind of a negative take on what we say,
like don't you don't want to be codependent on people?
Blah blah blah. But yet some of these things once
upon a time was the dream.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yes, absolutely romanticized.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
Yeah, and even for the best friend structure, like you
see people talking about their best friend that they've had
this childhood and like how they can't do anything without
each other, who they have had babies at the same
time as each other, tried purposely like all these things
or have like try to be in the same place
in their lives so they can continue that. They're like,
I also don't want that for me specifically, you.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Know, Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I think it's like in a lot of our media,
we've been sold this very intense relationship and that means
that it's so powerful, it's so intense. But at the
same time, when I was doing this research, it is
fascinating to me how many people are so against this
(20:34):
idea because they think it was demonizing women's care generally
women's care of We were saying it's codependent, like it's
a bad thing. As you said that you usually applied
to women taking care of people, And I do think
there's an unhealthy version of this, But.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I'm also.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I think that it might have been used in a
way to kind of put women down and say you're
making you're making this problem. Yeah, but they're just trying
to care for somebody the best that they can in
their life.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah, especially like with the hand that they've been dealt,
whether it's not understanding again like being told this is
the dream, this is what you want it to be.
Like this whole trad wife phenomenon is a resurgence of.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
That in.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
A different way with capitalism involved.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
But like what we see is now the resurging of
a new old dream. Is that same idea that once
upon a time was fed this is what you're supposed
to have, and now it kind of backtracked And we've
talked about this where like it's the understanding that if
you're truly fighting for the rights for someone, you're fighting
(21:57):
for whatever right they want, like that they choose to have,
and for those who are happy to be in those
in a way that hopefully doesn't cause them trauma or
isn't read out of trauma, then great. But at the
same time, this pushback of like there's an like that
same blurred line, it's like is it good?
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Is it bad?
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Who was to say?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
And that was one thing I kept grappling with when
I was reading this, because we've also talked a lot
about you can reach a point where you do need
to step back, it's not healthy for you anymore, and
maybe you need that person to want it for themselves
in the case of something like addiction. Right, So it's
(22:39):
it's just really complicated, Like this whole conversation, I think
it's been reduced far too much because there's just so
much going on and every relationship has its own story,
and I don't know, there's just something about it where
I don't feel comfortable at all giving any kind of
(23:02):
definitive right, this is what it is exactly. Yeah, yeah, which,
speaking of I cannot reiterate enough. We are not a
medical podcast. If addiction is involved, please seek out a professional.
But if you're worried you might be in a codependent relationship,
(23:23):
there are a couple things you can do, and it's
a lot of stuff you might expect. Obviously, it does
depend on the type of relationship you're in, and pretty
much all of it, all of this advice is for
the giver, which makes sense, but I can also see
it playing into the problem. But anyway, here are a
few work on self esteem and boundaries, exercise, healthy eating,
(23:46):
solo activities, introspection always a good one. Self acceptance, working
on that. Solutions that involve we instead of putting everything
on yourself, so it's both of you solution and focus
on support versus control. Make sure that you can separate
your goals and desirrus from the other persons. They might
(24:08):
align a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Of the time.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
It doesn't mean they're like completely separate, but just make
sure you kind of no practice asserting yourself and they
have like examples online. This doesn't have to feel as
aggressive as some of it might sound. It's just like, well,
what if we did this? I have another suggestion and
challenging negative thoughts. So I have all these but I
(24:31):
once again I got to say these are more complicated
than a bullet point, and especially when you take into
account gender dynamics. I think there was one that was
about like, essentially because women have been socialized to take
care of things and they still statistically do a lot
(24:52):
of the domestic and care work in the US. That
I mean, you can assert yourself all you want, but
you'll probably still be doing a lot more. I mean,
I would hope not, but there's a lot of cases
where I can see you getting frustrated and you're going
to do the dishes anyway, right, even if you've made
that point right, So it's not as simple and as
easy as Oh, I have never thought of that. I
(25:13):
don't mean we all know this stuff, so I don't
want it to sound trite or anything like that. It's
not to say it's not useful. I work on a
lot of this stuff all the time, but I just
I think it's more complicated, and especially if you're bringing
in something like domestic violence or abuse or whatever the situation,
(25:36):
that's going to change how these things play out. And
there are specific examples online of how you can work
towards implementing these things into your relationship and in how
you view yourself.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
So if it's.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Something you want to look into, I would encourage you
to make sure, as I said at the top, that
it's a good source, because I've found a lot that
I thought we're just trying to sell you something in
a way that I did not appreciate, but it exists,
so you can look that up. And to wrap us up,
(26:14):
I should mention there is a new push for something
called pro dependence. Here's a quote about it from Psychology Today.
Pro Dependence is an attachment based theory of human dependency,
which by definition states that those who partner with an
active addict are loving people who may be caught in
circumstances beyond their ability to healthfully cope. Moreover, their desire
(26:39):
to help the addict and all related actions toward helping
the addict demonstrate nothing more than a normal and healthy
attempt to remain connected to a failing loved one while
facing extraordinarily difficult circumstances. So this is just trying to
take out the.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Kind of negative m hm.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
You're beer wrong for doing this, you're wrong for caring
about this person. There was also a point I thought
I included it, but I don't. Maybe I did say it,
but I'll say it again. A lot of times, you know,
addiction can happen slowly, and maybe it's not there when
you get in a relationship too. That's not to really
(27:17):
compare one is better than the other, but that's just
to say, like, I feel like people are always framing
it as you knew what you were getting into, and
that's not always the case, and even if you knew,
you might not have known completely. And even so it's
just a very judgy take. And so I don't really
(27:38):
know what pro dependence is really new. I don't know
where it's going to go. But I'm glad at least
these conversations are happening and that we're not framing it
as such a negative thing to care about people.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I don't know. No, Yeah, it was a lot to
navigate through.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
I have to say, this is a big conversation, especially
when you start breaking down types of relationships, types of individuals,
and what it looks like here. Because you're right when
you talk about addictive personalities with co mobilities that do
intersect with code independency. It's a whole different conversation. It's
a whole new support group that you have to create
(28:23):
because it is like very specialized, and it needs to
be because there are differences and minute details that make
a giant change in the way treatment is given if
there is indeed need for treatment. And again, some people,
as like the new phrase goes, they want to be here,
They're exactly where they want to be again.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
I like my parents.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I reference that's exactly where my mother chose and would
choose to be again and get it again. And I
think as much as I don't love that relationship, like
for myself. I love their relationship because they are able
to work it out. Of course, no relationship is perfect.
I don't want that or myself ever if I ever
get to the point that I don't have friends or
I feel like, like, let's say I were to have children,
(29:05):
which is almost too late right now for me unless
I adopt or whatever, and they were look and ask
did you ever have friends? Because I did not think
my mom would name names of like who and not
realizing that these were friends once upon a time because
she hadn't talked two in years and years and years,
because all she talks to is her families. So like,
that would not be the thing that I would want.
I would want, you know, them, to know and see
(29:26):
these other people in understanding that the yes, I had
a different life once.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, every conversation we have has this wrinkle, in my opinion,
But you can't remove people from the environment they grew
up in exactly. So I can look at my parents'
relationship and be, you know, have all of these personal
I don't want that, and I don't honestly sometimes I'd
(29:56):
be like, I don't think this is good, but they
grew up in that, and that's like you said, that
was the goal and they were happy.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
So it's hard to remove that.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
From any situation, right, It's really easy to judge.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
This is what I've basically took away from this.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Is that all of these situations I was reading about
are complicated and people have felt that they can judge
them from the outside without giving it any kind of
real thought other than that's so sad, But people care
(30:39):
about people. When I was reading this, I kind of
took away from it that the concern is when the
tendencies are extreme. That's what I would say, like a
really extreme and perhaps consistent because as humans, we do
care about people. We worry about people. That's completely natural.
(31:02):
But when it's negatively impacting your life and your health
over a long term, that's when I think it's time
to ask the questions. Because I did read some articles
about people who had a loved one who had cancer
or had some kind of illness that was debilitating and
kind of constant, but they were saying the difference was,
(31:24):
you know, the worry was always there, but it didn't
completely like they weren't completely subordinate to it, like their
whole personality and life and everything didn't go away. Because
of it, but they were worried and it became a
huge part of their life because you care about that person, right,
(31:46):
but you still held on to who you are exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Well, listeners, now it's your time to send your angry
emails if you have a hopefully not hopefully I did
an okay job on this, but please let us know
if you have any thoughts, if you have any experiences
you would like to share, or any clarifications or resources
(32:17):
we would love to hear from you. You can email
us at Hello at Stuffannever Told You dot com. You
can find us on Blue Sky and mom Stuff podcast,
or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff One Never Told You.
We're also on YouTube. We have some merchandise atcom Bureau,
and we have a book you can get wherever you
get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer
Rima and our executive producer Maya. Thank you and thanks
(32:38):
to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You production
by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
you can check out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or where you listen to your favorite shows.
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