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January 13, 2025 • 59 mins

The apocalypse has captivated our collective minds for a long time. And usually, women play one of a handful of usually gendered roles. We look for the light in apocalyptic scenarios.

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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to stuff. I've never told you a productive I heart.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Radio and for no specific reason at all or timing
at all, we thought it would be fun to talk
about the apocalypse. No, everybody loves, everybody loves end time,

(00:31):
no fun for all. And if you've been following along
recently with our episodes, and kudos to you, because we
know we have a lot of content. So if you're like, yeah,
I heard that, one will be like wow, good on you.
I have been exploring how to survive the world as
it starts to implode. I bought a breadmaker, I have

(00:54):
plans for gardens and other things, which made me ponder
what people think when it comes to women and the apocalypse,
because you know, again as we told you previously, many
many times, we're always thinking about episodes in this show specifically,
So there you go, and perhaps to no one's surprise,

(01:16):
there's a lot of speculation on women, especially in like
a zombie apocalypse, because that's the majority of Like when
we were looking for quizes or something fun, it's just
zombie apocalypse. And yes that includes several articles based on
the last of us any I know, I know, but
also a lot of references on how women are the

(01:38):
face of the biblical apocalypse as well. So, uh, why
don't we talk about some of the facets of this
apocalypse and women anyone? Why don't we jump into it?
You ready, I'm thinking this is gonna be a little
bit shorter. One. Why do I do this? I myself
up dedn't I.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
You're starting the apocalypse? This is like where at the
beginning of the pandemic, when everybody was thinking about the
one thing they did or said that started ours.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Was the predictions. Weren't they? Okay, moving on, We're not
gonna harp on that one again. So the apocalypse is
a wonderful I say this sarcastically, setting for so much entertainment,
whether we are talking about movies, books, or games. It
has opened up so many scenarios and possibilities and plot lines.

(02:29):
And how many types of apocalypse are there? Well a lot,
There's a lot out there. Some of them include like
Pandemic level and yeah, we still need to finish our game, Anie.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yes, Pandemic being a board game that is very very fun,
very very difficult. It has many difficulties and also different iterations.
We were playing it during the Pandemic, we got through
two one, well, we got through like the main We
got through like the main one that people play, and
then we did the like long longer campaign one, and

(03:01):
then we had a second longer campaign one and we
haven't finished that one, and when we sit down to
play that again, we're gonna have to do a refresher.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
We're gonna have to be like I'm I'm almost thinking
we might have to start over all, like.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
I don't know how much character interesting.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, he's probably gonna die an character so many I
don't mean to be a few of our characters died, like.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, y'all. They're fun.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
It's a thing.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
It's fun.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
It is, but it's also like a thirty minute set
up to remember how to play it. We love those campaigns, right,
So there's the pandemic, and then we have the man
created war, nuclear holocaust, Uh, there's alien you know that
type of apocalypse, and so much more. But it seems
the more recent or I guess favorites are something along

(03:53):
the lines of a specific disease or disaster that eventually
creates a zombie like environment that's going to come and
eat you or infect you. Like one of those iterations, right,
And to add some depth todays, here's some explainers of
some of the apocalypses. Again, I think they have like
the list goes on and on. I looked at one

(04:15):
and you know how Google shows you the top whatever.
So there was like twelve listed and then the numbers
says many more. Yeah, so we're not doing all of them, okay,
So but just just to give a kind of a
small explainer. So one timely classic is the nuclear war
thinking fallout, that game, you know what I mean, where

(04:36):
everybody's hiding in bunkers, all these things. It isn't a
surprise that after the usage of the nuclear weapons in
World War Two that people had legitimate fears of world
collapsing attacks and of course the current state of being
with power hungry people who've been given unlimited power, or

(04:57):
so they claim. So you know, that's one that's in
the back of our heads. That's an option. Right. Then
we have the pandemic apocalypse again, something that seems like
it could occur at any moment. In Ashells dot Com
even talks about being the most plausible of all the apocalypses.
Here's a quote a pandemic apocalypse is one of the
most plausible types of apocalypse, and it's a scenario that

(05:20):
we are currently living through with the outbreak of coronavirus.
While the current pandemic isn't yet on the scale of
some of the fictional examples below, it's still a grim
reminder of how quickly a virus can spread and how
easily civilization can break down. So, yeah, that's one, and
I have like his article was in the midst of this,

(05:41):
so it makes a lot of sense. One we didn't
mention before is the religious idea of the rapture. Remember
the Left Behind series? Did you read any of those
any or watch her camera in action?

Speaker 2 (05:57):
That was a heavy side. I did read left Behind.
I know there was a show I didn't watch that
I have said before. I had a teacher in eighth
grade who just really really didn't like that I wasn't
that I was an atheist, and he would always say,
it's like you're running off a cliff and I'm trying

(06:17):
to stop you. And he was like, You've got to
read Left Behind, And I did it. It was fine.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
I love when people take fictional tales and be like,
you need to read this. This is gonna be you.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
He was really like, this is going to change your
whole perspective. And I was like, Okay, let me try.
And I was like, just say, I think of the
Da Vinci Code.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
It came around the same time, so you would think
like anyway, but anyway, Oh yeah. So here's a brief
explanation from that same article at ashtails dot com that
says the religious rapture apocalypse is a popular motif in fiction,
often used to explore themes of fate, morality, and human nature.
In these stories, the world comes to an end, not

(07:01):
through natural disaster or nuclear war, but through the intervention
of a higher power. This can take the form of
God descending angels to whisk away the faithful, or of
Jesus returning to judging the living and the dead. Whatever
the specifics, the religious rapture apocalypse is a powerful way
to explore the idea of an all powerful being who

(07:22):
decides the fate of humanity. And we're not going to
go too deep into that in itself, but we do
want to come back round and talk a little bit,
just kind of mention some of the female images used
to portray these ends of times within the religious concepts
of the apocalypse based on revelation and if you know,
you know which you're gonna know at the end of this.

(07:42):
But yeah, I find this interesting because again, when you
have tales of the Rapture, there's always a center character
about the anti Christ. Yeah, and if I were to
go back and I look at the Left Behind series,
it feels like it's train someone weird, no helves president

(08:05):
just yeah, why. But what's so funny is my part
of my family and that that like Cookie Crew extended
family really really thought it was Oprah.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
The anti Christ.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Wow, I'm like, like, a black woman's gonna have that
much power? Ever, dang, Like, not because they're not powerful,
it's because society wouldn't let them give that kind of authority,
but that that was their belief for a while. I
love the whole I think Beyonce is actually now part
of that category. I do.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
I mean, I find it really interesting that a lot
of times a woman gets really powerful and all of
a sudden, heavy quotes around like respectable conservative media is
like they must be witches. There's no other way.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
There's no other way, which again I will say, at
least the Left Behind series, whether or not it's because
of lack of imagination, or they also felt like, now
there's no way that anybody but a white man in
power could be just powerful. He does portray the Antichrist
as a white man, so you know, they were all
on the same page there anyway. And then the last

(09:20):
example we want to give is addressing the zombie apocalypse,
which pretty much like the other types, are multifaceted and
could all be connected, such as maybe a nuclear war
creating zombies and diseases and being caused by some ideal
of a holy war. You know, you could put all
that together. But zombies, much like vampires or witches because

(09:40):
we've talked about talked about this before or werewolves, seem
to be a part of a cyclical horror fad that
becomes trendy at different times, because like Training a Bousan
and all of those movies came out, World War Z,
Zombie Land, that kind of all came out and chunked together,
and they're still popular. So they have outdone the gamut

(10:01):
of most other fictional characters. Villains, what would you call them? Villains?
Just horrible?

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Oh, that's the question. We don't need to get into
a morality debate vampires right now, I wouldn't call I
wouldn't call zombies villains because they typically don't have any

(10:28):
brain function, so they're more like a sad outcome of
a virus. I don't know, I won't call them villains.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Which movie? Which zombie movie? Is it? That they adapt
They could suddenly get faster, and they figured out how
to do doors, and they kind of figured out like.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Is that senses it's twenty eight days later? Maybe that's
the one they were It was twenty eight days later,
was new and that they were fast?

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Okay, so watch remember, like they have this conversation the
survivors do about like they're adapting. They're adapting to us,
like trying to get to us. And I was like, huh,
they are becoming more people.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Like they're like raptors.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Oh. With all of that, zombies are somehow created and
become a part of the threat of humanity. But we
know by this point that it's often a cautionary tale
of the downfall of humanity in itself, as Ryan law Again,
who wrote the Ashtales dot Com article, says, although it

(11:35):
is usually presented as a horror story, the zombie apocalypse
can also be a commentary on society, human nature, and
our relationship with technology, and of course, like we looked
at jarj rameirow was like the beginning of the zombie
movies and having this whole conversation like it was a
conversation of race, if I remember, like a lot of
things in society, but this is specifically about race in

(11:57):
its conversation. And then we had filmmakers like Quentin Tarantino
who came in trying to make his own kind of
version of horror, and when he did it, it was
all just like I have a lot of opinions about him,
but all like just gross tesque like type of shocking movie.

(12:20):
And I remember there was a quote about just like
Romero like getting up and leaving in the middle of
the screening because he didn't like it, and Quentin Tarantino
took it that as a victory, saying he scared him
so badly, when in actuality, he was just disgusted because
the whole point of Tarantano's movie was to gross people out,
to shock people. I think there was a scene where
he's trying to rape somebody and like his falls off,

(12:42):
which is kind of funny, like you're like okay, but
that's obviously no real social commentary to that other than
he wanted to be gross and like have a that
as this conversation. So, like we know, when it comes
to things like the zombie movies, and especially as its origins,
it's a bigger conversation about this.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
The wave before the wave we're in now, those zombie
movies were largely about consumerism because it was like, I mean,
very basically, I could talk about this for a long time,
but you know, it was essentially a lot of them
took place in malls, and it would be your sort
of mindless zombie and that representing consumerism but also kind

(13:26):
of being I won't even say romanticized, but like some
part of you being like that would be nice if
my like life was heavy quotes again, more simple in
terms of I just have to survive, I guess.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
I mean yeah, And as Laws wrote, also, it can
be a conversation about our relationship to technology, and I
think that's like the newer version of things. So it
is it's like, okay, okay, interesting. So in the world

(14:07):
of fantasy, these scenarios happen often. But the question that
we're having is how do women fare especially in these
fantasies and horror situations. And we are going to look
at the entertainment factor because there's a lot to be
said about what people think may happen and how they
see women in these scenarios as well. So I want

(14:30):
to go ahead and put this caveat most of this conversation, unfortunately,
is very sis heteronormative in the ideal that they want,
like it's almost rendering it back to gender norms, like
classic gender binaries. So they really heavily weighs on that.
So that's the bigger conversation, and that's bigger examples that
we have. Of course, there's new people who are doing

(14:51):
things that are creating and pushing the boundaries, of course,
but we can't ignore that that has been a perpetual
part of the conversation, and especially when you look at
like Apocalyptid film where they use and we're gonna talk
a little bit more use women, whether it's as victims
or as the plot line like you know, dead women

(15:13):
or rescuing women and all those things. So that does
come into play as well. Now, like many things in life,
this question how do women fare in the situation is
a toss up. It's a toss up, y'all. There are
those who see women being portrayed as mere tokens, because
you've got to have some type of romantic tension, right,
So for one to survive a long time must be

(15:36):
somewhat capable, but not too capable. And an example that
we were given is The World War Z's a long
time since I've seen that. I did remember, like I
liked it, but it does point out the fact that
his wife, who kind of she's supposed to be a scientist,
I believe. Do you remember the movie I've never seen
or the book, Oh, you've never seen it. I have

(15:59):
question marks because it's definitely a horror movie ish thriller,
I guess suspense.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
I don't think it's enough on my horror radar.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
Okay, okay, it's got a few jump scares, but like
the woman is with their family and he's trying to
get to them, but he's needed because he's so important
all these things, and like she has this conversation with
him and then like she just stays on the boat
like that's her tire character. Yeah, bro plays this so
that or even walking dead like you as many like

(16:32):
good characters are in there, it's like the token. They're
still not the actual main characters. They might be a foil.
Think about Glenn and Maggie. Like a lot of people
hated Maggie at the end of that because they blamed
her for her death. And I didn't even see that scene.
I was not ready for that song.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
No, is this spoilers. I don't know what happened.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
I know it was later on, but that that's been
a while, right, well, I don't know anyway things happen.
Maggie gets blamed, right, all right, we're gonna go with that.
And then you have the women being a product or hostages.
I think Mad Max or a Handmake's tell. And yes

(17:12):
there is female Lee's to this one and even in
the later Mad Max Viriosa and Fury Road. But there
also lies the like the abuse of women as a
subplot for most of that, even like the old School
one with Mel Gibson and Tina Turner. Come on her
her costume is iconic, but it's still doesn't say much

(17:32):
to women. I will say again, we've had this debate,
and I think had I already started on the show
when the Fury Road came out.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yes, because I I got in big trouble at my
job the day I saw Fury Road and it all
worked out. But I remember very specifically the day I saw.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
Were we the other?

Speaker 2 (17:57):
No? I was, No, it was before you actually.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Okay, So I just remember being really upset, not upset,
but like disappointed because everybody had painted this all the
all the men who hate who hated this movie, talking
about how they didn't need her character. She made it
worse and in the end was like, but she's the
one that gets saved, Like, yes, she has a pretty
bad role, but in the end she still needed the

(18:24):
main character save her, So why are you mad? This
seems typical what's happening. So even with the big publicity
to that, it still didn't wow me and like, oh
look there's this feminist icon and she don't get me wrong,
Charlie stir own on her own as an icon, but
in that movie it didn't match the energy that was

(18:48):
given to me. But all those things and talking about
all of this, writer sable A Radio talks about these
types of scenarios in her post titled Sexism in the Apocalypse,
and she goes on to talk about how using these
types of scenarios are another addition to the harmful idea
that the only way women would survive is by being

(19:08):
protected by the good men or good guys from the
bad men. She writes, that's why I've had enough of
How Yet, again, even in what otherwise a well thought
out apocalypse story from a writer I respect, this is
repeated as if it were the gospel truth. Women in
the apocalypse need men to protect them from the gains
of rapist men.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yes, and she continues, the roving bands of raping marauders
are orcs for writers. You can feel okay about killing
them because it's justified. But I think it's perpetuing a dangerous,
misogynistic and missandrist stereotype that has repercussions, the idea that
feminism is dependent upon civilization, and that if the authority
of civilization were to fall, women would become prey and

(19:50):
men would descend immediately into acting like gorillas competing for
a harem. Even Margaret Atwood, hailed as a powerful feminist voice,
has fallen victim to this stereotype.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
So the stereotypes obviously transcend the horror, but also into
the comedic ideals as well. Another example of women not
doing much or barely seen is from the apocalyptic comedy
of This is the End where most of the people
and women specifically all get swallowed up in a sinkhole

(20:22):
or the one woman that appears, Emma Watson playing herself,
comes through but hurriedly runs away with an axe when
she realizes she may be stuck with an entire group
of strange men who make comments that are a little
too eager. So obviously she runs away, But like, there's
definitely a lot of conversation, because that is one of
the biggest critiques to these movies, into these shows about

(20:46):
apocalyptic scenarios is that once again, women are just property.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
I think I would say one of the things I
noticed when I was compile telling the Survival Horror chapter
in our book you can go get wherever you get
your books, your books, is that I mean, and we've
been doing it in this episode, is that a lot
of times it's the one she's the woman. Like there's

(21:16):
it's all men, and then there's the woman, and then
if there are more women, then yeah, they are usually
some type of property or something to be exploited or protected,
but they're not like fully realized characters.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Right right, Well, with all of those risks and uncertainties.
We do have some, as you said, who have done
better and treated better, existed better, suggest the ladies from
the zombie Land, some trickery and deception could keep you
alive a bit longer, you know, according to them. However,

(21:54):
another article written by Ray Alexandra, titled how to be
a woman in the Apocalypse according to male dominated movie
So this is somewhat sarcastic, does give praise to one
woman again, that one who plays it smart and safe,
and that's Michelle from ten Cloverfield Lane. I have not
seen this movie. Have you seen this one? I have
seen this one, this one you have. I like that

(22:15):
we've seen one of each at this point now, And
she writes this. The protagonist of ten Cloverfield Lane, Michelle
played by Mary Elizabeth Winstead, offers a damn near perfect
guidebook on how to realistically survive the apocalypse. Thank you
JJ Abrams. She says, she knows when to be patient
and when to fight, her mind is always working overtime,

(22:38):
and she's crafty enough to make her own hazmat suit
and gas mask. Thanks to these factors, as well as
taking the time to heal from a physical injury. Michelle
ultimately out with the shady doomsday survivalist who ran her
off the road and held her in his bunker. On
top of all of that, Michelle shows us that even
when you do finally find out that the Earth husband

(22:59):
in by humanity destroying aliens, it is best not to
freak out, just quietly get into the nearest car and
bravely head out to find other survivors. So we do
have some I like this, she I like that she
wrote that this is our guidebook.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
You don't know it now that you mentioned it. Yeah,
that it is true because it's like a guy is
trying to protect her, but really he was keeping her,
holding her captive, and she had to kind of out
out smart him and then gets out in the world.
Turns out he was right, but hey, she was like, nah,
I'm better off. I'm good without you.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Thank you very much. Oh. Which brings us to those
who think women maybe the last to remain According to
our entertainment, The Last of Us is talk full of
women leadership, the survival of women is not guaranteed, and
talks about how it is stacked against women, but the

(24:01):
fact that they they're all these that exists. Are they
all great? No? I like that, but they're leaders, but
their leaders. So we have Marlene, we have Kathleen, we
have Maria and Ellie herself of course. And we're not
talking about the Last of Us Too yet Annie, not yet.

(24:22):
I know you really want.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
To, Willie.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Can't you know what? I'll give you the exception, what
would who would you add from the Last of Us too?

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Abby?

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Obviously? Is she a leader for her group?

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Though she's a leader with a her organization. I would
say she's like first pick of the team you want? Abby?
Also male, but that's a different story. Okay, I won't
go into it too much, but yeah, I mean, and
I do like there are a lot of women leaders

(24:56):
in the Last of Us series. I kind of like
because I think the whole point is the Last of Us.
We jokingly called our crew when we did Betrayal at
the House on the Hill, that campaign, that board game,
we called our crew the least of Us because it's like,
how did you survive? You probably had to do some

(25:16):
things that weren't great.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
I didn't know that. I know that's why we called
ourselves that.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
You chose it.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
I assume that was my partner I am not that creative.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
I thought it was you. But anyway, so I like that,
you know, you see the kind of the good and
bad of them, and you understand, like that's one of
the most painful and wonderful parts of the last of
us because you're like, Okay, I get it. Maybe I
don't like it.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
I mean, that's the whole point of end of times. Yeah,
content right, like this is the end of humanity? How
far do we go? How good or how bad is it? Yeah?
And with some of those great examples, there's also the
argument that many of the women leaders are survived are
often white, perpetuating the idea of white saviors. One thesis

(26:05):
written by Sarah Austen wrote about this, specifically titled white
Girls in the Apocalypse, Race, Gender, and Sexuality at the
End of the World, and as the title implies, it
also takes on the more stereotypical heteronormative standards as well,
so the verisis heteronormative, gender binding type of ideal so
Austin wrights to maintain the cultural status quo while focusing

(26:30):
on a girl power heroin. The post apocalyptic white girl
savior subgenre has specific markers that center around white women's
sexuality and reproduction as hallmarks for the survival of humanity
at large. This combination of traits, intended to make characters
relatable and aspirational for young adult audience, also acts as

(26:50):
a form of capitalist activism by exploiting white feminism and
girl power rhetoric to generate viewers, ad revenue, and licensed products.
These text media maintain the importance of white women's sexuality
and roles as mothers in late stage capitalism, while denying
the full humanity of queer, trans black, indigenous, and people

(27:11):
of color or bipoc and the other women marked by
differences from an idealized heterosexual white identity. So it does
say a lot to that. Now again, we're gonna give
kudos to the last of us who really kind of
changed some of those ideas by bringing in a queer
character and all of these things. So we definitely see

(27:31):
a little differences in that type of conversation, but for
the most part, a chunk of all of these kind
of like girl power, end of times heroism fighting for
society movies, it is white sis, heterosexual girls. So in
her article, Austin gives examples of catnus from Hunger games,

(27:54):
Buffy from Buffy, the vampires they are, and even Emma
Swan from Once upon a Time. I was like, ah,
look at that. I don't think of that as end
of times, but there is a lot of the times
where they're trying to in the world, oh, or take
over the world okay, okay, and make it there so
like they destroyed the fairylands essentially.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Oh oh, and they.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Come to a different world and then she wants to
take over that world. Got you so all those things
so so good? Kind of no, And with that she
points out their transparent attempt to be inclusive by writing,
I argue that the post apocalyptic white girl's Savior is
always haunted by race and queerness. These side characters make

(28:40):
the reader feel feel as if the trope is inclusive
and allows the subgenre to access bipock and queer identities
to the service of white supremacy and heteronormativity. Building on
the cultural narrative of white women as universally welcoming and mothering,
the girl's Savior must be needed near these forms of differences,
but cannot embody that since she is chosen for her

(29:01):
lineage or special qualities, which are inextricably tied to her heterosexual,
white femininity. Buffy, for example, is both more effective and
more civilized than the first black slayer, Snaia, which means
restless apparently, despite the savior's straight, white, unmarked identity, her
friends and helpers, such as Buffy's lesbian best friend Willow,

(29:22):
demonstrate her open mindedness and universal appill So her entire
paper is a fascinating read. It's a pretty long paper,
and she does clearly show the continued white savior trope
within these shows or books, and she, like I said,
gives True Blood as an example of that as well.
You have that heterosexual white girl, innocent white girl coming

(29:45):
to a fairy at that coming to say, but all
her like cronies, her side gigs are from the bipod
community essentially as well as usually queer community, so like
it does hang on to like, Yes, it's about her sidekicks,
but they can't be the embodiment of the savior obviously.
In it, she also talks about the different tropes such

(30:08):
as the love triangles and why that's necessary, as well
as motherhood that is heavily used in order to tie
the feeling of humanity and emotions into a plot, but
still has to stay with that within that heteronormative standards.
You cannot straight from that at all. And of course
a part of that conversation with things like vampires or

(30:30):
all those is about having children and not being able
to be a mother. We know that we've talked about that,
not siring a child. I think on that, and that's
part of like you can't do this which motherhood if
that is something that's important to you, can break a
relationship for sure, but like it definitely has this level
of like incompletion for those characters. So you know, you

(30:56):
do it like Twilight and get pregnant with the vampire
baby over look is coming coming and uh with that,

(31:19):
I actually we stumbled upon another article and this was
written by Nicole. It doesn't have her last name, so
I'm not leaving about her name is Nicole and it's
for Beyond Black White dot com and the article is
titled and asks would black women survive a zombie apocalypse?
So she talks specifically about survival skills and how she
imagines people may be planning the end of times, and

(31:42):
she brings on good points about things that can lessen
the chances for anyone's survival. So she talks about children
or having a lot of children, and I think about
the fact that I have a pet, and how there's
no way I could I could remain alive for long
if I try to keep Peaches, because if we're being
hunted down by zombies or just bad people's in general,

(32:03):
She's a she's gonna bark. She's a barker, and then
she's a highes front with me, and I'm like, what,
so she's gonna give me away immediately after the barking,
And I guess, like again, when we talk about like
young babies or toddlers, they don't know why they're in
this emergency situation and cry when they need things like
that's their communication. That could be a problem.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
This this reminds we have I haven't watched it yet,
but I have in quiet place on.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
The calendar, well like the quiet place too where she
has the box, I mean the first one. I'm sorry
with the baby, the first one. Both both already made,
and so when it when she when it's born, she
immediately puts it into that box with the oxygen tank,
which is already running out. I'm like, okay, how do

(32:55):
you know for sure we're not testing that. That's okay.
Willing suspension of this belief these is what makes these
movies amazing. So you know, those things I do think
about as well. But she never really Nicole never really
gives any definitive answer outside of the fact that beyond
black women know how to survive point blank, and they

(33:18):
know how to push forward. As Nicole writes, I'm a survivor.
I'm not going to give up destiny child out there.
If nothing else, Black women are survivors for better or worse.
We pride ourselves collectively on the ability to make a
dollar out of fifteen cents. The tenacity would be one
of the key ways black women could survive in the
face of adversity. We plant our feet and get that

(33:39):
work done. Additionally, I could count on black women to
make the can food rations and Squirrel made Post Apocalypse
to be rather tasty given the apocalyptic circumstances. It is
a talent to be able to cook just with what
you have and make it good. There's only a handful
people that I know that can do that, chefs obviously,
But like that, I'm known in real life and yeah,

(34:01):
I'm not one of those people. And however, Nicole does say,
like many others can't imagine that humanity in itself would
be so kind or giving and with all of those uncertainties,
you know, could they could? Who could survive in this scenario?
Who is going to survive in those scenarios? So she

(34:25):
gives advice. So if you want to go back and
look at that article that I just mentioned, you should
go back because she's like, you know, if you're into witchcraft,
get those herbs, ladies. And I'm like, yeah, that's actually
really smart. Get those herbs. Uh, with all of that,
because we're kind of going to come back into I
guess the real scenario. Could this actually be? Could we

(34:46):
survive that this was a real scenario? So do you
have any characters Annie that you would regard as good
examples are surviving or just iconic women of the apocalypse?

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah? I mean I I hesitate because like good examples. Again,
I think a lot of times apocalypse media is about
like how you hold onto your humanity when you're in
this situation. So there are examples of people doing that,

(35:18):
but it's still like you've faced so many losses. I
would say Dina, who's from the Last of Us two.
I won't give any further spoilers, but just yeah, Dina
Clara Redfield from Resident Evil two, she's a good one.

(35:43):
Maybe Heather from Silent Hell three, which, by the way,
I recently found out. I don't know how I didn't
know this, but there's a Silent Hill two movie that's
based on Silent Hill three, which is one of many
funny things about that movie. And I watched it, and

(36:04):
I have the time of my life, to be honest,
Carrie and Moss is in it. Carrie Moss is probably like,
please never bring this up again. But speaking of Carrie Moss,
Trinity from The Matrix, Yeah, yeah, she's a good one.
I do you think Maria from the Last of Us

(36:24):
and Marlene. I don't know. It's just so tragic. All
of it's so tragic. I'm like struggling to think of one.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
That's a spoiler alert. Yeah, those are some good ones. Again,
I haven't seen all of fall Out, obviously. The Fallout
is just beginning with the main character, like she seems
to be again, she's also very wholesome, so and she's
also very white, so I wonder if this is the
same context as we were talking about I'm trying to

(36:55):
think because yeah, like in the all the horror movies,
the train to Busan was a pregnant woman with the
little girl that survived, but it was based on her
father and the father of the or the husband of
the pregnant woman like that really helped.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
So yeah, I mean this is really interesting too in
terms of the fiction piece we do Once a Month
that I wrote when I was right out of college.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, you're I'm pretty sure less of us people stole
it from you, which they've never.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Read this, so somehow they absolutely didn't, but I like
to blame them as if they did. But it is
interesting in terms of that is it's instead of like
being a Joel and Ellie, it's a woman and her son.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah. Just interesting the flip.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, but I mean it does have a lot of
these things in it. It's it's hard to.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Escape it is. So with that, let's ask the real question,
how will women do in an apocalypse? For real? In
real life? Annie? So in a zombie type of scenario,
do you think we could survive?

Speaker 2 (38:15):
No? I don't think I could. I've thought about this,
We've talked about it on the show. I've already I'm
in Atlanta, I would be huge trouble. I mean, if
the seed you see, something happens there. I'm already infected,
but like to get out of the city, and then
you're dealing with like dwindling supplies because it you know,

(38:39):
in a city, you have more, but there's more danger
of I've thought about it a lot. I don't think
I would make it. I'm not gonna I think i'd
make it maybe a little bit longer than some people,
but not very long, very long. How about you.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
I don't think I would make it either, but I
think I would make it just doing the whole like,
don't come out, you know what, stick around because we're
going to do a very informative and obviously very realistic quiz.
Definitely to see if we could survive at the end
of this. But according to Megan A. Armstrong, she says maybe,

(39:13):
but it definitely isn't a great set for women. In
her article for International Feminist Journal of Politics titled why
is the zombie Apocalypse so terrible for women? Gender, militarism
and ontological insecurity at the End of the World, she
explores the topic with the hell from the book and
film World War z, which I have now referenced twice

(39:34):
because it's in several of the articles. She takes a
deep look at the basis of the heavy militarization of
the situation, how they take on the very masculine violent
role or route as a solution to the problem.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
She writes, this is a common theme in apocalypse narratives,
the chaos of the immediate aftermath of the disasters leading
to a Hobbesian state of nature. What we imagine to
be a robust, stable civilization can be taken down and
fast by a single destabilizing element. Apocalyptic visions of the
future can help to articulate present anxieties and offer hypothetical responses.

(40:09):
They create a space for an imaginary future in which
characters map out a means of survival. Such visions allow
audiences to imagine themselves in the narrative and therefore produce
certain kinds of normative, legitimate responses. However, in WWZ old
wor Z, the aggressive militarized response to the zombie threat,
led by a particularly masculinized hero figure, departs in some

(40:33):
ways from other examples of the genre.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
Right, so we're jumping into the fact that again it's
kind of like the one versus the total, which I
don't think is too different, but during the beginning of
World War ZE it kind of was different, especially if
it was like an international So I don't think it
happens in the US. It happens somewhere else first, which
a lot of things do take place, but sometimes it
just happens in the US versus And the article talks

(40:57):
about the gender roles specifically. Once the zombies has strike, however,
this and they're talking about all the stuff that had
happened previously is undone, and Karen remains with the children,
the wife as all you're talking about as Jerry travels
the role in search of the key to eliminating the
zombie threat. This suggests that WWZ likes so much of

(41:17):
the zombie genre functions to stabilize gender roles in a
time when traditional gender roles have been increasingly destabilized. This
return is interestingly informed by the more progressive gendered order
depicted at the outset of the film. Jerry is neither
aggressive nor violent, but first and foremost a family man
who will give up his career to protect his family

(41:39):
and fight for their survival when necessary. Through Jerry, ontological
security is restored through particular gendered and militarized responses as
he assumes his role as protector of the family and
directs the international military action that secures civilization itself. The
zombie allows for the restoration of gendered order in a

(41:59):
time of threatening the stabilization, but in order that still
nods to its more contemporary evolutions. And she continues explaining
why this is all important, saying there are some for
whom the normal way of life, the status quo upheld
in the extermination of the zombie was never conducive to survival,
but their stories are not often told in zombie narratives.

(42:22):
WWZ doesn't reveal that certain kinds of families may survive
the zombie threat while others will not. To occupy normative
gender role is not enough to guarantee survival. And here
we see how the knowledge system of zombie reveals itself
to be not only gendered, but racialized. So she goes
into a deep dive on bat It's a very fascinating paper,

(42:44):
like she really goes deep into this conversation, almost like
this is a societal tell on warning us that feminism
is ruining our lives and it's going to kill us
because of zombies.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
I got I can't help it. I got a couple
more points about the last and I was like, oh,
one is that and this is so tricky. And I
actually do have an episode that's coming out about this
that I wrote forever ago, but because it's a pain,
I've just been putting it off. But I feel like

(43:31):
the message that was intended at the end of the
last a lot of people took not they took it
very differently, and so yes, they were like angry, Oh,
she's a girl, she can't survive, like she's a young
this is wrong, when I don't think that's what the

(43:53):
actual material was saying. But people were taking that and
you using it as like, oh, this is why I
this can't be right. I hate this. And I've even
heard that in terms of the violence that Ellie does,
the main character, one of the main characters, like, I

(44:14):
don't I feel like this is irredeemable. I'm like, you
seem to be cool and enjolded it. I find this
really interesting. Yeah, but like those those divides, we're gonna
we're gonna see how that plays out. But also I've
been in the first time I went to dragon Con,
which is a huge convention here in Atlanta that's kind

(44:38):
of like COMCN, very nerdy and all this stuff. I
made a mistake and I went to how to Survive
a Zombie bock clips panel, and all of them were
like conservative dudes that were saying, you know, liberals are
all gonna die, and then we'll go back to the

(45:00):
right way.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Right way God intended obviously.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Right anyway anyway. Armstrong concludes, when we read artifacts such
as WWZ with attention to what they reproduce and normalize
through the zombie as knowledge system, we can understand negotiations
of ontological insecurity as they are enmeshed with gender and race,
and remain attuned to what responses they render intelligible and possible.

(45:27):
Here we can see the ways in which anxieties over
how Western civilization survives the overwhelming threat of the zombie
are materialized and resolved. The zombie reveals what and who
is considered necessary for civilization to survive, as well as
who will be abandoned. The sense of contemporary feminism as
a threat to the male self comes through, and the

(45:50):
negotiation of a kind of masculinity that is responsive to
changes in gender norms and expectations, but still positions masculinity
as a savior. Yes, also in every survival horror game pregnancy,
Oh my god, that's disturbingly not that far off, it's dangerous.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
And then also that conversation of like who has access
things and trying to get those things just just in cases.
There was of course one response, and I think it
was a really interesting idea, is that writer Sammy Eastwood
watching some of these horses, and we've talked about this
in video gaming, like these impromptu crop tops that make

(46:32):
no sense in trying to defend your land property yourself.
She says that women won't survive the apocalypse thanks to our clothes.
Like that's the beginning of her article, and she talks
about those conversations of like why are we dressed like this,
Like we couldn't wear ballet slippers, Like no wonder we're
falling over ourselves and dying when the killer is chasing
us because of those hills do not work when you're

(46:55):
running in dart.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
You lose them. You use them as a stabbing device.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
But yeah, but also I can't walk in them, so
like breaking my ankle.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
By that point, it's too close. You don't want to
be that close to them, right exactly.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
I did the parody video just recently about how the
woman gets a complex because the serial killer keeps passing
her by and ignores her to kill everybody else, and she's.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Like, why not?

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Why not me? Anyway, But yeah, that could be a problem.
I could get us killed, so some say, but again,
all this may be upon Minia said that the way
of survival is actually the gendered idea of femininity. It
might be a savior to this. History even shows that
more women survived some of the most difficult times. From

(47:44):
a twenty eighteen Complex article, journalist Victoria L. Johnson writes,
scientists over at the University of Southern Denmark analyze times
of feast or famine in the past three hundred years,
including the Swedish famine of seventeen seventy two to seventeen
seventy three, life expectancy of enslaved people Interrinidad in eighteen thirteen,
the eighteen forty five Irish potato famine, the measles epidemic

(48:06):
in Iceland in eighteen forty two, in eighteen eighty two,
as well as in nineteen thirty three Ukraine famine, and
there was always one truth that remained true. On average,
women lived longer than men, and this is regardless of
age as well. So she is actually referring to a
study titled women live longer than men even during severe
famine and epidemics. In that research paper, they write, women

(48:31):
are the life expectancy champions. They can expect to live
longer than men almost anywhere in the world today. This
pervasive inequality has intrigued researchers for decades. The cumulative corpus
of research supports the conclusion that the gap has biological underpinnings,
modulated by social and environmental conditions, and was more is

(48:52):
during the hard times that women still outlive men, so
they continue. The conditions experienced by the people in the
analyzed populations were horrific. Even though the crisis that reduced
the female survival advantage in life expectancy, women still survived
better than men in all populations. Men had equal or
higher mortality than women across almost all ages. A substantial

(49:16):
part of the overall female advantage in life expectancy was
due to survival differences among infants. Further support of the
hypothesis of an overall ability of women to withstand high
mortality crisis better than men comes from a different mortality
measure from all populations. The extreme age, the age to
which five percent of the population survived, was higher for

(49:37):
females than for males.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
And writer Sarah Youngblood Gregory writes specifically about the need
for a feminine approach to survival in their article for Cosmopolitan,
And here's a quote. Gender roles are obviously socially constructed,
and yet their conventions shape our lives and justify exclusion
and oppression even in our fantasy worlds. Femininity, which I'm

(49:59):
defining in a traditional sense as relating to women's softness, motherhood,
physical weakness, emotional communication, collaboration, and submissiveness, is often an
affront to the gritty survivalist mentality of the apocalypse genre, which,
in a COVID era climate change raviged Earth, has captured
the imagination of so many.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yeah, and they go on to talk about how this, though,
can actually help survival rates, and how being able to
listen and communicate and in like standing a group that
is humanity, which is often seen as feminine, can actually
bring on a survival tactic and bring on more for

(50:41):
being able to survive. They also go on to talk
about writers from the marginalized community and how they understand
how their leading heroin doesn't reject womanhood but embrace it,
and they talk about how it comes from a depiction
of real life. So here's another quote from Gregory Butler,
the author and Brown's depiction of womanhood le you know,

(51:02):
on the true history of women surviving world ending events,
writer Fannie cho argues in her latest work that the
apocalypse is nothing new. It happened over and over again
to marginalize people, and then conclude true femininity is a
tool for better, more just worlds through community care, communication, collaboration,
critical thinking, and empathy. Femininity has already survived the worst

(51:24):
and will continue to do so, maybe not on TV,
but always where it counts. And yeah, that was an
interesting conversation because, yeah, like we often see femininity portrayed
as a weakness, so they get hysterical and cry and
can't move on and they don't want to survive anymore.
And that's not necessarily how that goes, Like the horrible

(51:47):
opposite portrayal of an angry mother that needs to get
revenged versus like the mother who just gives up instead
of the in between who sucks it up, and like,
all right, been through this, I know how we can
get through this. Interesting.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Yeah, yeah, And there have been a lot of We've
done past episodes on this about a lot of studies
about pain endurance and women versus men, and just like
long term endurance and women usually come out on top

(52:20):
in those studies.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
So yeah, and yeah, I just want to kind of
head on to what I think is interesting, specifically when
it comes to the religious apocalyptic literature. This was my
my like secondary in education. I think I might have
said before literature, but I find it fascinating because they, uh,

(52:44):
this one actually comes from the West End Biblical Chapel
dot Org and they talk about revelation, and they talk
about the four women present of the apocalypse, and I
believe there's several like depictions and books often used, and
these are all gonna sound familiar, but one of them
is the Jezebel or Jezebel, which is a she devil,

(53:04):
and they describe it in their resources that she is
the leader of a church for idolatry and immorality, and
that she was guided by the familiar spirits of the
wicked Queen of Jezebel of the Old Testament. If you
know Jezebel, she gets a pretty bad rap, you know.

(53:26):
Then we have woman in clothed with the sun, and
apparently I think she is the better version. So there's
always like a yin and a yang. I'm using Asian ideology,
but this woman all represents a corporate body. She's the
nation of Israel. So remember that she has given birth
to the man child, who is the Messiah. So that's

(53:47):
the one. That's the other one. And then the Harlot.
The Harlot, she's present in a lot of like apocalyptic
type supernatural. She comes up a lot in that. So
this is the woman that's designated, and she's the mother
of all prostitutes and the abomination of the earth. This
is all in all caps when they describe these people

(54:07):
by the way, oh my goodness, so you born. And
then we had Bride of the Lamb, who is once
the horror of the Antichrist is destroyed. She is the
bride of Christ who was displayed. Okay, so in a
lot of representations, I think we talked about this. The

(54:30):
there's the Trinity, and it's often the church is the
bride to that, so that there's so many conversations. But
I thought that was interesting because that does come into
play in our regular types of things like Supernatural, like
we talked about, because there's how many apocalyptic situations do
they have in their fifteen seasons?

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Every season? Every season? Yes, this is the TV show
by the way, everyone.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
Oh yes, yes, popping back up. I just saw someone's
reaction to watching all fifteen seasons, like she was having
a time. But I thought it was interesting because that
does play a lot in what we are hearing today.
I know, the Bride of Israel, all of that. That's
that's what That's a big conversation we're having, especially when

(55:14):
we do come back and talk a little bit about
Project twenty twenty five and trying to come back to
these roles, those gender roles that they think is holy
in order to fix things, but also telling us that
all of these things such as like natural disasters and
such being a thing of the apocalypse and who we

(55:36):
should be watching out for. So something to take note of.
I did say that we were going to talk about
if whether or not we were survived. I sent you
to quiz as any did you take them?

Speaker 2 (55:47):
You did.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
Okay, the first one, how long would you survive the
Ultimate Zombie quiz?

Speaker 2 (55:54):
I got five months? And I made it five months,
but no more.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
I think I like four months longer than you. Good
for you, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
You wouldn't like. The taste is too much cheap light beer.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Oh no, beer, chili is great. I know beer canned
chicken or something.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Oh gosh.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
And then this one, this is the buzzweek, was how
would you make it in the Last of Us? How
long would you make it in the Last of Us Apocalypse?
How long did you make it?

Speaker 2 (56:32):
It's said ninety years? And then I would die of
natural causes.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
But it's not even possible, is it?

Speaker 2 (56:43):
But I took it twice, and I like the first
time I did like I said, the last time we
took a quiz like this, and I was like, you know,
I'm in between these two. And the first time I
took it, I got one day, So I'm on the
I think I'm like, I'm on the ledge for a

(57:05):
long time. One or the other.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Either you're immediately gonna die or you'll survive forever. If
you can survive that one day, Okay, mine says thirty years.
So I feel that's that's a good time. After thirty
years of barely surviving, you trip on some fun guy
and our heart of fun guy people come to come
to you. Yeah, I'm devoured by fun guy people. But yeah,
that would be sad. I'm like, oh no, well, I

(57:30):
don't get I don't get a natural of death. I
guess that's fine, that's fine. It turns out that we
do kind of survive ish. I do like the people
who are like who because they did write that. I like, immediately,
I want immediately out like Caroline and I have a
whole pact in case a zombie apocalypse happened. So, oh,

(57:51):
there you go. Guys, that is a very shortened could
we survive? Let's look at what society and entertainment tells
us so vive. It's a toss up.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
I mean, you know, like it took us an hour
long to get to about. Yeah, toss up, because it is.
That's kind of what the apocalypse is about. I guess,
although you know you're religious, like the rapture in theory,
if you've done everything right, you'll be all right. That

(58:28):
we'll have to come back and talk more about some
of that stuff. But For now, that is what we
have to say about women and the apocalypse. Please let
us know if you have any thoughts on this, if
you have a favorite apocalyptic entertainment piece, media, or just

(58:49):
any suggestions about what what more we should talk about
about this. You can't email us at STEPHANIDM, mom Stuff
at iHeartMedia dot com or Hello at stuff Will Never
Told You dot com. You can find us on Blue
Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok
at stuff We've Never Told You. We're also on YouTube.

(59:10):
We have a tea public store, and we have a
book you can get wherever you get your books, and
we do talk about some of this stuff in there.
Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, executive producer
and our contributor Joey.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
Thank you and thanks to you for listening.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
Stuff Will Never Told You is protection of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts on my heart Radio, you can check
out the heart Radio app app a podcast or where
you listen to your favorite shows.

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