Aliens, Abductions and Cover-ups: an Interview with Payne Lindsey

If you're like Ben, Matt and Noel, you've probably kept a close eye on the tons of UAP/UFO news hitting the airwaves. But what can we make of all these stories? How do we parse the fact from the fiction? In today's interview segment, the guys welcome returning guest Payne Lindsey, creator of High Strange, as he explores some of the weirdest tales in all of UFO in the second season of his hit podcast.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
A production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
They call b Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here that makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know, and thank you for
tuning in. What do you think about aliens, folks, whether
you're a skeptic or died in the wold true believer,
there's no denying UFOs have been everywhere in the news recently,

(00:52):
and we wanted to go to an expert on this,
so we have something special for you tonight, friends and neighbors.
We are thrilled to welcome back the award winning documentarian, filmmaker, investigator,
world traveler as we came to find, as well as
podcaster the one and only Payton Lindsay to make sense
of all this stuff through the newest season of his

(01:14):
hit podcast High Strange. Pay Dude, You're back.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
I'm back man. Thanks for having me, let's talk about aliens.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
You're going to sort it all out right here.

Speaker 5 (01:23):
And I think I think within this hour we're going
to solve it, and we have to talk about it.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
So watch this whole thing because we'll figure it all out.

Speaker 6 (01:32):
Take those aliens.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
U p U A p is kind of cool.

Speaker 4 (01:35):
Kind of cool, cool either way.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
As cool as your cardigan and pay we were Noil's
got a sick UFO card again. Uh, zoom in as
you watch Netflix, folks, Yeah, exactly, pension Zoo Payne. We
were talking a little bit off air before we rolled. Uh,
this is indeed your fourth time hanging out with us
on stuff they don't want you to know. Is that

(01:58):
a record had?

Speaker 4 (01:59):
That is? I mean for any other guest, Do I
get like a medal?

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Or there was talk of a jacket. Yes, five time
rule says per Saturday Night Live that on your fifth time,
we do have to get you a special jacket.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
So basically you're never gonna happen me on ever again.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
No, we're working with.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Accounty budget as we speak.

Speaker 6 (02:20):
It's also like the kind of jacket you get if
you behave poorly in prison. You know, you get the
jacket jacket you record, it's on your permanent record being
on stuff I don't want you to know all the
four times.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
That's a great segue there too, because a lot of
folks who may somehow not be familiar with High Strange
just yet, they doubtlessly know your storied background in previous
true crime investigations like Up and Vanished, for instance, or
the Monster series which you've made with our pal Matt Frederick.

(02:54):
One of the first questions probably for everybody in the
audience tonight, if they somehow haven't heard of of High
Strange Pain, how would you explain it to someone who
had it was a new idea to them. And also,
how would you explain it to an alien.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
I'd explained.

Speaker 4 (03:15):
They'd be similar.

Speaker 5 (03:16):
I would say most of the alien UFO content that
I grew up consuming, that I obviously loved and influenced
me as a person as a creative, All that stuff
made me curious at a young age. I always felt
like it was mostly geared towards people who already believed

(03:38):
or already wanted to believe, which was me. I've always
wanted to believe, But I wanted to create a show
that kind of went a little bit more down the
middle and invited more of the masses to say, hey, look,
something's going on. We're not going to we don't know
exactly what it is, but at this point we can

(03:58):
say there is something, let's just explore that. And so
I kind of took the same true crime investigative approach
I've done with other shows like Up and Vanished, and
just applied it to what I feel like is one
of the biggest mysteries.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Of all what's going on? Are we alone? What's out there?

Speaker 3 (04:16):
So in season one, I remember us talking a lot
about the Betty and Barney Hill incident and the Rendelsham
Forest incident. And if you if you're watching this, you
want to go hear that, Go check out High Strange
season one, because I remember you covered those pretty extensively,
and my goodness, fascinating individual incidents right where somebody encountered

(04:37):
something and then how does how does that encounter pass
over through time? If you had to point to like
the main incidents or people that you're talking to in
season two, what would you say that is?

Speaker 5 (04:51):
I mean, I think in general, I mean, just speaking
about Rendall Sham and Betty and Barney Hill, I am
drawn to some of the older cases for a couple
just simple reasons, because hey, it's twenty twenty six. Is
this an AI rendering of me right now? Or is this,
you know, is this my habitar?

Speaker 4 (05:09):
What's real? What's not?

Speaker 3 (05:10):
Like?

Speaker 5 (05:11):
What would be a convincing UFO photo today that you know,
couldn't wouldn't have a big asterisk next to it. But
when you go back further in time and you have
these you know, old recordings, hypnosis tape and you know
Kodak images that are film, these kind of stories to
me hold more weight because they are before this like

(05:35):
technological leap we've had. And so I'm kind of drawn
to that, not only from nostalgia way, but I think
that there's some of the the last standing stories that
don't have all of the red tape that any new,
profound UFO story of modern day would have, right And

(05:55):
so in the new season, I explored with Streeber's story.
He's a prolific guy, well known in the UFO world.
Different opinions about whether or not it's true. He's had
major success with making books and movies about his experiences.

(06:17):
Great storyteller, and it's stories like that. And then the
broad the broad Haven incident which happened in in Wales, right.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah, back in.

Speaker 5 (06:29):
Late seventies were a bunch of school children and teachers
all saw this craft and some claim they saw it
being So it's like you know the mass sightings and
you know before TikTok less reasons to get attention. You know,
kids in a small town in Wales weren't trying to

(06:50):
get attention from the international news.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
You know.

Speaker 5 (06:53):
So like so like these kind of stories to me,
whatever happened, it's strange and like it it crosses that
line of like, Okay, maybe it wasn't Aliens. Maybe it was,
But if it wasn't, then there's a weirder explanation here
as well.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well, I said, yeah, there's also there's let's go back
to a point that you made right at the top
they're pain which is the following. It's your documentary and
background right where investigators we're holding objectivity. You and the
team over at High Strange do something just phenomenally well.

(07:31):
Aside from the production, which is insane by the way
that I describe it as cinematic, Yeah, aside from the
cinematic production here, you're going into this clear headed but
with an open mind. And you're not veering too far
into credulity or into automatically dismissive skepticism. In the course

(07:54):
of season two, has it been challenging to maintain that objectivity?
Like how do you do it when you hear these
bonker stories?

Speaker 5 (08:03):
So, I mean, let's just compare it to a true
crime case, right if you are If there is a
like a very famous popular news story going around about
a missing person or an unsolved murder, everyone wants to
hear and.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
See the suspect talk.

Speaker 5 (08:26):
They want to they want to make their own assessment
of something. And so I try to find cases where
I'm getting as close as possible to the people who've
claimed to have experienced something and kind of let you
decide for yourself. They're making extremely extraordinary claims, but you

(08:48):
tell me if it rings true or not. Just because
it sounds insane doesn't mean it didn't happen. But if
they're making it up, are they just doing a really
good job at doing that? So maya like I try
to stay objective in the sense of I'm going to
play you some very compelling tape and I'm gonna go, hmm,

(09:10):
that's crazy. It's I think this person believes that happened
if it didn't, what does that mean if this person
believes that it did, right? Yeah, And so like, we
haven't really solved that mystery either. You know, there's sleep
paralysis and stuff like that, but there's other fringe events

(09:31):
that don't fit into all those categories. And so that
to means what's compelling. You could sit there and hear
someone tell a fantastical story and maybe not believe every
component of it, but say, hmmm, something something happened here, right.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
I think the best example of this within High Strange
two is I remember hearing Jeremy Corbel's voice and you
guys are are talking about Area fifty one, you know,
and you you move on to the best case of
an individual who has told a story, continues to tell
a story and is possibly the most explosive story within

(10:10):
this whole world of uap UFOs and everything. But as
you know, all of us have just been individuals listening
to these stories and trying to come up with our
own answer if it's true or not. You do a
really great exploration of that. I wonder if you can
take us to the bob Blazar of it all.

Speaker 5 (10:27):
Yeah, I mean So Bob Lazar one of the most
infamous people in this space. I mean, he basically brought
the concept of Area fifty one into the center of
pop culture, not just in the tenfoil hat way, but
just in the way that we discuss whatever that place

(10:50):
is and whatever.

Speaker 4 (10:51):
They do there.

Speaker 5 (10:52):
Has insane stories, even down to the idea of the
flying saucer, what it looks like.

Speaker 4 (10:59):
You know, he claims to have.

Speaker 5 (11:00):
Worked on these spacecraft that looked like the if you
google flying saucer, looks like that, right.

Speaker 4 (11:11):
Bob Lazaar is a very believable person.

Speaker 5 (11:14):
He seems sincere, he seems smart, he seems like he
knows what he's talking about. It's hard to find the motive,
like the motive behind someone making up a lifelong lie.
But then you have these sort of asterisks in his
story where years later, upon fact checking and you know,

(11:38):
independent research, there were things that he said that couldn't
be proved or just were flat out untrue. And so
for me, especially coming from investigative journalism, if it was
a suspect and it was in the courtroom setting, if

(11:58):
someone had a history of life about these things, why
would you believe a more fantastical story.

Speaker 4 (12:08):
If you were to lie about.

Speaker 5 (12:09):
Something small, then wouldn't it make sense that you would
lie about something even bigger. I mean, I think that's
just like a human condition thing. I'm not saying that
that's how I feel. I'm saying I think that's how
the mass is typically tend to lean. And in a courtroom,
if it was a prosecutor in the defender, the prosecutor

(12:30):
would say, look, this person is known to lie about
all these things.

Speaker 4 (12:34):
Why are we going to believe this person? Now?

Speaker 5 (12:36):
They would be saying that, right, And so I brought
that point of contention up to corbel which is one
of it's one of the things that is uncomfortable to
talk about. But for me, like if Bob Bazar came
out and said, hey, look I made that part up,

(12:56):
I'd be like, okay, whatever, I could still probably believe
everything else. It actually might make me believe it more.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Because now we get more of an honest character.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
Right, Well, it's interesting I exaggerated my resume.

Speaker 6 (13:12):
Sorry, you don't really think about the courtroom aspect of
it all. I think that's an interesting thing to bring
up because these types of cases are not the kinds
of cases that typically end up in a courtroom to
be litigated in the way that you're talking about. They're
more litigated in the court of public opinion and wildly
speculated upon. So it's as interesting to kind of draw

(13:33):
that comparison, because you know, you don't often get to
look at these kinds of stories through that more legal lens.
And on that note, I was also just wondering how
you feel about this whole like kind of post truth
world we're living in more and more where even when
it comes to the news or the way certain things

(13:54):
are covered or the way certain governments talk about things,
feels like we're being lied to all the time, only
you know, with the facts we're being told or not told,
but literally with our eyeballs not being able to trust
a lot of images that we see or footage that
we see, and instantly calling into question so much quote
unquote evidence about things that maybe used to be much

(14:15):
more cut and dry. How do you think that kind
of figures in to the future of investigations surrounding the
paranormal and things of this nature, whether it be extraterrestrials
or you know, the kind of stuff that we like
to talk about on the podcast.

Speaker 5 (14:29):
I mean I think it just it immediately opens up
this sort of existential question of what is what is truth?
What is reality? Can multiple truths exist?

Speaker 3 (14:43):
Right?

Speaker 5 (14:43):
I mean humans themselves are historically not the most reliable witnesses.
You could have ten people witness a thing happen and
they thought he had a red shirt on, but it
was really like a purple shirt whatever, right, And I
think today it's the hardest it's ever been. And like

(15:04):
the way my brain works, I always want I want
there to be some like absolute truth, like what is
the and like I'm always gonna try to find that.
But the more I've explored in the unknown, the harder
that that tends to be. And I think that's a

(15:27):
testament to a lot of things. And if you just
go back to you know, belief, like yes, what what
would make you believe something is true? We already believe
in things that we can't see and can't prove, right,
Like I mean, right now, Like what's what's a silly example?

Speaker 4 (15:48):
Like Okay, I'm on Wi Fi?

Speaker 5 (15:50):
Right, I can't see the Wi Fi, but it's there
right somewhere, whatever it is.

Speaker 4 (15:58):
If you're religious, you know.

Speaker 5 (16:00):
Someone might say, okay, maybe they do see angels and
premonitions and whatever. But isn't religion just across the board
kind of like predicated on belief.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Well, absolutely, it's aving in.

Speaker 4 (16:14):
It is part of it is part of the experience.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Like the stock market.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
It's like crypto just money in general.

Speaker 4 (16:22):
You've got to believe in bitcoin.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
I want to push back just slightly. I mean, like
the Wi Fi, there's someone that can explain how that works, but.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
I'm saying that we can see We can't see it.

Speaker 6 (16:30):
For sure, absolutely, But what I guess what I'm getting
at is, like even the people that purport to be
the finger on the pulse of religion or the mouthpiece
of God or whatever, I would argue it's it's a
lot harder to you know, quantify those claims than it
is to like, you know, figure out the science behind
something like Wi Fi or even like what an objective

(16:51):
truth might be that we can you know, potentially prove.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
I mean, I'm with you entirely. I think we're all
just like in this place where everything.

Speaker 4 (16:58):
Is so well.

Speaker 5 (17:00):
The difference is that we invented Wi Fi, so we
do know how it works. But the things that we
didn't invent or don't understand yet we're still just trying
to figure out or we're just guessing or speculating, or
we're assigning some sort of belief based on our own experiences,

(17:21):
our paths, our histories, our comfort zone, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
Our pre existing information informs our perspective. So now we
have a new puzzle piece and we the human impulse
is by hook or by crook. This piece is going
to fit in my bigger puzzle.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
And how to don't care?

Speaker 2 (17:40):
I don't care. I want to dovetail into something you
mentioned really quick. This is something really stood out in
our notes while we're researching this, this conversation you're talking about.
I love the way you set this up. All you're
talking about not just human psychology, but also the nature

(18:00):
of reality. And in episode two, without spoiling too much,
you have this fascinating meditation on the psychology of inexplicable
encounters and you say, hey, these can challenge not just
a person's perception of a moment, but their perception of
reality overall. So do you think that these psychological challenges,

(18:24):
which are hardwired into the human mind, do you think
they might cause some people to just sort of ignore
a thing they've seen or try to explain it away.
How does that work.

Speaker 5 (18:35):
From a psychology standpoint, which I'm not a psychologist, but
I've gone to therapy, you know, Like, yeah, I mean,
people can remember things differently. In that analogy I was,
I was kind of very loosely, almost like a diary entry,

(18:55):
relating it to like a relationship of mine, and how
multiple truths can exist, same words, same room, same everything,
but walk away with different experiences. And I think that
is true with everything and human interaction to this thing

(19:21):
happens on the news. We all see the same thing,
but we're all going to perceive that differently.

Speaker 4 (19:28):
And so back to the larger reality question.

Speaker 5 (19:32):
I mean, I think that already exists from just a
the way our brains work and how we consume and
compute information right and filter out what we're scared of
or what makes us uncomfortable, or what we're curious about,
what we want, what we don't want.

Speaker 6 (19:51):
The same as the echo chamber effect to the inverse
of that, where we also kind of tend to consume
and bubble ourselves in these biospheres with the stuff it
does support our world.

Speaker 4 (20:02):
Right and get out on them.

Speaker 5 (20:04):
Yes, yes, but yeah, I think that the more I've
just dove into this topic talking to some of the
like cooler experts than me who've been studying UAP for
their entire lives, I think that it all eventually converges

(20:29):
on this concept of reality.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
Like this is I'm going to be terrible at explaining this,
but like.

Speaker 5 (20:39):
A UFO sighting in the sky, like what if it
could be there and then like not be there at
the same time, Like what if we're getting like a
glimpse of something else, Like it's really like there's a
physical thing there, but it also isn't or something. And
like I think paranormal and UAP, all these things kind

(21:01):
of there's an element of call it dimensions, call it whatever,
but like an overlapping thing or everything always existed at
once and always did.

Speaker 6 (21:13):
Dude, Matt, you mentioned the thing about this something that
was contained in those disclosure files, about a hologram projection
of some sort. Tell me, because we talked about it recently,
and that was a David rush in my mind, and
I don't think I fully wrapped my head around. I'd
love to maybe take a second tip to chat about that,
because it really fits right in line with what you're saying, man.

Speaker 4 (21:32):
I need to find exactly how David Grush explained that.

Speaker 5 (21:35):
Yeah, yeah, he did it well. And then you're kind
of like, huh, okay.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
Well, I know for sure he mentions the concept of
projecting a three D image onto a two D plane,
and that's as simple as making a shadow, right right,
But then thinking taking that several layers up past two
D into four or five, six, thirteen whatever. Just the
concept of that my head. I always get tripped up

(22:00):
on the concept of how do you manipulate things if
you're projecting down?

Speaker 4 (22:04):
Because what do.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
You mean what do you mean down down into lower dimensions? Right?

Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, so from higher dimension and lower dimension, and the
only example.

Speaker 4 (22:13):
But that's the assumption that there's higher and.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
Lower right.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
Here.

Speaker 4 (22:19):
If anybody we're heading king.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
I want to do something really quick, just based on
the discussion we've had. I saw on Instagram yesterday another
one of these, you know UAP videos or images. There's
so many of them that they hit every social media.
Some of them are just outright fantastical, some of them
are definitely AI. Some of them, you know, it's so grainy,

(22:45):
it could be anything. I found this one. I'm going
to share it just to see what we think, because
it's one of them. It's one of the strangest looking
alleged UAP I've ever seen, and you'll you'll notice. And
let's just I want to get some opinions and if
you don't mind, let's start with pain. Okay, here we go.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
Yes, So I saw this one.

Speaker 5 (23:06):
My first take was like, this looks crazy, this is
this is definitely a UFO. But then I'm not kidding
at last night, and again, I don't know. I didn't
fact check this, I didn't go like too much deeper,
but I saw another side by side image of a
balloon that looks exactly like that.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
The mirrored kind of mylar texture.

Speaker 5 (23:32):
Like almost like you could have taken a picture of
a bullet that this would have looked weird to even
the human eye. Right, Yes, but when they zoomed in
and they screenshotted this photo, you could have put that
in AI and then just kind of cleaned up all
the party balloon elements and kept the shape. And now

(23:52):
it looks like mechanical and I think that might be
what it is. I've not personally found in or looked
up that balloon.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
Well, good luck, man, How do you verify something like that,
you know, I mean.

Speaker 5 (24:06):
To me, it would be literally finding where you could
buy that balloon? Yeah, yeah, find Yeah, you should able
to find that.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, you should be able to find that balloon. If
whant to disprove the thing, we should also be able
to I mean we're in the age right where uh
there are entire online communities dedicated to figuring out whether
or not something is an AI generated image, So that
the best we can hope is to find the providence
like the first time this picture popped up ever and

(24:37):
where and then maybe yeah, and maybe you know, to
take a take a note from you paint, find the
person who first posted it and say, okay, give me
the story.

Speaker 5 (24:48):
I'm more so like where I want to be able
to find on like Amazon or Ali Baba, Like where
can I buy this balloon? Perhaps because somebody bought this
balloon and let it go in the sky, but.

Speaker 3 (25:02):
It appears to have first been posted a long time ago,
like twenty eighteen. Yes, okay, so.

Speaker 5 (25:06):
We'd have to make sure that it was available for
purchase back then. So I will say, like, there's definitely
some things in the sky that are our balloons or
birds that are misidentified. But as much as we have
a UFO problem, I think we have a bigger we
have a bigger balloon problem.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, shut down there.

Speaker 5 (25:25):
I've never seen so many cool ass balloons in my mind, that's.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
What cause that whole airspace shutdown.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
And I'll passo.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
It was literally a party balloon, not even like a
weather balloon.

Speaker 4 (25:36):
So I think there was more to that one. I
mean the official.

Speaker 5 (25:42):
From what I read, I think that they were doing
a like a military tests.

Speaker 4 (25:52):
And they didn't tell them.

Speaker 5 (25:54):
Makes it kind of reminds me of the New Jersey
drone incident, where I feel like there's only so many
X explanations as to why there's so many things in
the sky and people are seeing this stuff, and the
governments like we don't know what they are, Okay, So one.

Speaker 4 (26:12):
Why that's weird? Figure that out? What does that mean?

Speaker 5 (26:15):
Does that mean it's an adversary just hanging out and
like one of the most popular populated like airspaces in
America between like New York New Jersey, Like that's like a.

Speaker 4 (26:28):
Very heavily populated area.

Speaker 5 (26:31):
So like if no matter what it was, you have
to think about why someone would choose that as the
area to do that for a long period of time,
and for me, the only it comes down to probably
being to test and see how we respond.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
I like that answer because it also it also shows
a point that we have to we have to trumpet
at every opportunity, which is the US government, right, big,
dangerous labyrinthine, It doesn't always know what it is doing. Right, Yes,
because yes, compartmentalization. Did you run into any moments where

(27:12):
in the course of this season where you thought, Holy,
this changes the entire way I thought about, you know, implants,
or I thought about photography of UFOs. Were there any
things that really just rocked your world?

Speaker 4 (27:28):
I think that.

Speaker 5 (27:30):
I mean, growing up, it was always the like the
general UFO conspiracy is that, oh, you know, the entire
government knows and they're hiding alien bodies and spaceships at
Area fifty one. Right, that's a clean way to look
at it. But I mean, have you ever been to

(27:50):
the DMV, like right, right, you know, have you ever
used the US Postal Service? Like I'm just saying, like,
not all these systems are perfect here and they're not
all connected.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
I r s like, come on.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
What are the chances they could keep this under cracks successful?

Speaker 5 (28:07):
Well, no, actually, I think that that lends towards the
fact that they could. Yeah, because there's a lot like
the US government doesn't make their top secret planes. They
outsource that. They're not equipped to make that stuff, they

(28:27):
go to Lockheed Martin, right, And so you have these
private sectors, private companies who are really kind of in
the depths of the real secret stuff whatever it is,
not like not the non human stuff, like real like
military tech like skunkworks.

Speaker 4 (28:47):
Right.

Speaker 5 (28:47):
And it's very possible that there is like a small
black department that has intimate knowledge about certain things, and
only some of that is disseminated to certain people in

(29:09):
places in order to keep studying it or.

Speaker 4 (29:13):
Try to recreate it or whatever.

Speaker 5 (29:15):
And I've thought about it, and I've put myself in
their shoes. There would be zero incentive to ever tell
anyone any of this, not one thing other than the
moral we deserve to know.

Speaker 6 (29:32):
From the Legacy program stuff that we talked about on
a recent episode.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Sorry, Matt, you had some.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
I really like that picture you're painting their pain because
I'm imagining DMV, Post Office, all these other governmental agencies,
you know, even on the law enforcement side of governmental
agencies and intelligence side. Those those groups don't have full agency.
You have to follow you know, books and books and
books of how things are done in a specific order

(29:58):
or else that does not align with you know, true
information that we can trust or we can take somewhere
and use. We can't send that through the post office
if you didn't do it exactly the way the instructions. Say,
a group that you're describing that is inside somewhere, let's
say the Department of Energy or the Air Force, something
like that, it would have true agency where it could

(30:19):
just do what it needs to do and it doesn't
have to report anything. It doesn't have to be done
in a specific way. That is, I haven't thought about
it in that specific way before.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
There are private contractors also with higher security clearances. Yes,
thank government employees.

Speaker 4 (30:35):
So what are they going to do?

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Are they going to walk away from all that money
and face these serious consequences for the idea of the
moral imperative which, just like you said earlier, paying is
similar to wi FI. It's invisible, the moral imperative. We
see its effects sometimes, but it's easy to ignore it
in your day to day life.

Speaker 5 (30:58):
Yeah, I mean, like as as as humans, as the
human species. Yeah, we deserve to know if we're not
alone in the universe, and we definitively know that, But
there is literally zero incentive for them to come out
and say that.

Speaker 4 (31:16):
Whoever that is, what do they gain?

Speaker 6 (31:19):
Did you see the Obama's take about UFOs or about
aliens on that podcast? Just curious because he basically said,
you know, if there are, then it is above my
pay grade, like it is not something that I, as
the president, would be privy to. And I think the
implication there was if that's not how it is, then
then it's likely not a thing. But I think to

(31:41):
your point and to Matt's point, and I completely agree,
I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility and
all there are things above the president's pay grade, you know, yeah, yeah,
I don't think.

Speaker 5 (31:51):
I mean, if these programs exist, the president isn't aware
of all this stuff because not only an office or
for years or eight years if they get another term.
There have been presidents in the past that have tried
to poke around, Jimmy Carter being one of them, and he.

Speaker 4 (32:07):
Had his own sighting.

Speaker 5 (32:09):
And there's also like weird stories around kind of you know,
they're kind of more in folklore now about he did
get close. He found enough information and it kind of
messed them up. Right, I don't doubt if you're if
you're the president and you really tried, you could get
close to something.

Speaker 4 (32:28):
But you're not briefed on that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
And we'll pause here for a word from our sponsors.
We'll return to Get High and Strange with Payne Lindsay.
And we're back, So High and so Strange.

Speaker 5 (32:49):
I found the way that David Rush described the quantum mechanics.

Speaker 4 (32:55):
Here we go.

Speaker 5 (32:56):
So he says, in terms of dimensionality, the framework he's
familiar with is something called the holographic principle, and it's
driven from general relativity and quantum mechanics. And he says,
if you want to imagine three D objects such as

(33:17):
yourself casting a shadow onto a two D surface, that's
the holographic principle, So you can be projected quasi projected
from higher dimensional space.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
Again, it's an amazing concept, right, and I think we
understand it. My question with it always you guys, is
if if you project a shadow of Matt onto the
wall over there, my shadow can't do it? Can It
can walk around? And you can be like Hey, I'm
a shadow, but I can't interact with anything on that wall, right,
I can't interact with anything in that two D space

(33:53):
where I'm being projected, which would always be my question,
how do you? How do you project down? And then
also be you know.

Speaker 5 (34:02):
I think that was just the analogy right where it's
like the shadow is a two D projection that we
know what causes that, you know, the light shadow, but
holographic our shadows aren't holographic projection.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
Yes, yeah, mine aren't.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
I hate to tell you, guys, No, we'll save it
another right, they can be right this. I mean, I
do think it's a it's a phenomenal analogy because what's
the fourth like the two D the three D version
of the square is the cube, So what's the fourth
dimensional version of the cube is it's something we can

(34:42):
perceive the hypercube right or time cube by the way,
we'll bring that one back when you know. It's interesting
here because from the jump in episode one, I believe
of high Strange two we hear directly from David Grush,
and by all accounts, he seems to be very careful

(35:06):
with what he can or can't say, and he tries
he seems to at least avoid going too far in
his claims. What's your read on Grush and his statements.
Does he seem credible to you? Does he seem legitimate?

Speaker 5 (35:24):
I mean on the surface, just watching him talk and
seeing him, I'm like, I believe this guy. He seems
very believable. He doesn't seem like he's out to get
anything else out of this. I think, no matter what,
he believes this stuff and people have told him this

(35:48):
stuff for a long time. And so if that, if
what he's been told and experienced isn't true, it opens
another door of who's cast lighting this guy for whatever reason?

Speaker 3 (36:04):
Right?

Speaker 4 (36:04):
I mean?

Speaker 5 (36:04):
And not to say we wouldn't do that. And he
is very careful about what he says. One thing I
noted is that when you know, people in Congress were
asking him questions they wanted to know about the like
you know war, were they aliens? And he said that
or extraterrestrials And he says he doesn't like to denote origin,

(36:29):
and he prefers the term non human. And I'm kind
of like, okay, why not denote the origin? Is it
because we don't know or that there's multiple origins? Is
it AI, like from the futuren't human?

Speaker 4 (36:46):
Right?

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Is it AI traveling back in time? We've got to
We've got to talk just real quick. So everybody knows
that you traveled to DC for research on this show.

Speaker 5 (36:56):
Correct, Yes, So I got like an email from another
friend journalist and I was actually just at the bar
with my friends in Atlanta, and then I gets tomorrow
in DC at like nine am.

Speaker 4 (37:08):
I was like, I was like, should we go?

Speaker 5 (37:11):
And we're like, yeah, we should go, And so we
booked a flight, went there, first time ever doing something
like that, and I will say we didn't get there
early enough to get in the actual like chambers. So
they had a spillover room right next door for other
journalists and it was also packed, and they were running

(37:31):
the live feed through there. And I actually was glad
that I was in that room because my experience was
totally different and I should probably play some of the
audio of it later on the podcast. But when David
Rush was saying some of these really profound claims, people
in this room were clapping, like it was like, for

(37:53):
what it's worth, it felt like a Steven Spielberg disclosure moment,
Like they weren't doing that, and like because they're quite
not allowed to get kicked out. But like in this room,
they were clapping and whistling, and I was like, what
is going on?

Speaker 4 (38:09):
This is weird.

Speaker 5 (38:11):
And his claims are insane. So I don't know. At
what point is everyone crazy? I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
I hope not, because I like Mulder and Scully and
you and everybody else here want to believe. Can we
please talk about Whitley Streeper just a little bit. Sure,
he's got some of the most interesting depictions of one
of these things others, let's say, from some from elsewhere.

(38:41):
I believe it's in the first I think it's episode
I can't think it's episode one or two. I can't
remember pain it starts in one, goes into two.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
Yeah, it kind of.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
So Whitley is telling this story of what happened to
him the day after Christmas nineteen eighty five, and man,
it's it's just some of the most disturbing imagery I've
heard when it comes to an encounter. Can you tell
us about the listos on things, the mechanical voice, the
way these creatures looked, the way he describes them, and

(39:14):
how they came to be with him.

Speaker 5 (39:16):
Yeah, I mean, he basically says that he woke up
in the middle of the night and he heard noises
around him and just kind of like the human instinct,
like it is someone in my house, you know, like
you hear weird noises, but like it was movement, like
there were people in there.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
And then he he couldn't really get up.

Speaker 5 (39:38):
But then eventually he rose up and he realized that
he wasn't actually on his bed, he was somewhere else.
He was in this room that wasn't his house, and
he was surrounded by these tall, insect looking beings with
big black eyes, and they were just peering over him,

(39:59):
and they were like trying to stick a needle in
his head and experiment on him.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
And it's fire in the sky type stuff.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
Nightmarish kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 (40:11):
And then wakes up the next morning, you know, he's like,
was that a dream?

Speaker 4 (40:16):
What was that?

Speaker 5 (40:17):
And like some of it was foggy, And he says
that over the course of the next couple of weeks,
bits and pieces of it came back, and he felt weird,
He felt physically ill, like he had been hurt, and
so he went to his own doctor and they ran
some series of psychological tests, and they just did like

(40:38):
a general physical and inspected his body and he had
damage what he described as a rectal tear, which is
really where the whole concept of alien probing ever came from.

Speaker 4 (40:53):
I think one of the first.

Speaker 5 (40:54):
Episodes of South Park did a parody of this, but
this is really kind of where that became in pop culture.
This stuff, according to him, really happened to him, like
these these injuries are real, and that wasn't the first
time he was visited. He claims that this happened for decades.

Speaker 4 (41:16):
Over and over again.

Speaker 5 (41:17):
And one of the times, years later, he had another
incident where this car pulls up to his house and
a man and a woman who he describes as humans
not aliens, fight him and hold him down and put
something in his head. And then he realizes days later

(41:40):
that his ear starts to hurt and he feels this
little thing in his ear and it would buzz and
it would ring, and his doctor said it was just
a cyst, and so he kind of ignored it. Years later,
it was still bothering him, and he had a friend
who was a doctor and he was talking to him
over dinner and his doctor friend was like, just come

(42:01):
over to my office tomorrow and we'll take it out.
And they go try to do this allegedly, and when
the doctor gets the scalpel and gets inside his ear,
he goes to touch it and grab it, and he
claims that it moves, not that he poked it in
it no move like he tried to and it was like, no,

(42:21):
don't touch me. And he was able to get a
little tiny nick of it, but that was it. And
then he said, yeah, it's still right there in my
ear where it is right now today.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
And I was like what. I was like, it's there
right now. He's like yeah.

Speaker 5 (42:35):
I was like, can I feel it. I'm like he's
like sure, So I did. I walked over it. I
touched his ear. Sure enough, there is a thing in
his ear. I'm not a doctor, but it it felt
like a little bebie from like a beak.

Speaker 4 (42:56):
That's what it felt. It was hard, that's what it
felt like.

Speaker 6 (42:58):
There are cysts that are non you know, lethal, that
can feel like that, can be like little right things
that move around.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
Just one in my leg, but man, the description is chilling.

Speaker 4 (43:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
I think he did the right thing by touching.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
No question.

Speaker 4 (43:13):
Would Yeah, absolutely, I would have regretted it for a
long time.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
Yeah, guys, got a thing in his ear. You got
to touch his ear.

Speaker 4 (43:19):
I'm like, yeah, prove it. I'm like, oh he does. Okay, Yeah,
and you.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Know fair is fair? Let him touch your ear too,
That's what he said.

Speaker 4 (43:25):
He could have said time. I was like, is it okay?

Speaker 3 (43:29):
Yeah, just two things on that. It's baffling to me.
If you actually had something like that in your ear,
why wouldn't you take it out? And there's your proof, right,
You've taken out. Now you've got absolute, one hundred percent
proof that this thing happened. It was described as biomechanical
technology when they got that little sliver, right, Like, that's
at least what the doctor claims. That's what Lee describes.

Speaker 5 (43:50):
In the podcast in episode two, when his story ends,
it ends with him saying, ah, yeah, it actually turned
Actually I have a weird story about this. It actually
turned on forty five minutes ago. It's been listening, it's
listening now, And I was in it, like in the moment,
I was like what like, And so I kind of
I kind of left it at that and left you

(44:11):
hanging there. But I asked more questions and I'll probably
put it out, but I was like, what do you mean?
And he basically began to describe that this thing is
in his ear, which he believes is an alien implant.
He wants it there because it's made him like, it
makes him smarter, he said what he says. When it

(44:31):
turns on, he can speak better, he can understand better,
he can write better.

Speaker 4 (44:38):
It's like a useful tool.

Speaker 5 (44:40):
And he goes to the extent of saying everyone should
have this, and I was like, okay, whoa. And so
side note, this is like a really silly story, and
like if you want to get all conspiracy, it's funny
either way. But we were recording in this in this
hotel room in Italy at this conference, and when we

(45:01):
first got there, there was this annoying fly in the
room and we're like, we got to get this thing
out here.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
It's so annoying. We could never catch the fly.

Speaker 5 (45:09):
It was like the episode of Breaking Bad where he's
trying to get the fly the whole time, and so
we're like whatever, And every time we did an interview,
it would eventually go away or okay, cool, there's like
no buzzing sound. But during Whitley's interview about it was
like exactly an hour of his time that we had.

(45:30):
About fifteen minutes into it, that fly goes and it
lands on his knee and I'm like, so adhd. I'm
like I can't stop looking at this fly. And I'm like,
does anyone else see this? And he tosses his legs
stays on there. The fly stays on his knee the
entire time. What, Yes, it never it never flew off.

(45:56):
And then listening back to the tape, I was like,
he does say, like around forty five minutes ago that
it turned on, And I was trying to like like
like guestimate around when that would have been.

Speaker 4 (46:08):
I mean, it does kind of math. I don't know
exactly to either way.

Speaker 5 (46:16):
The fly thing was so strange and like as soon
as it raples, like, guys, you see the fly on
his knee and I was like, yes, like a little
drone or something like micro.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Drones, yeah, which could be a real thing. And did
I don't know, did Whitley himself acknowledge the fly? Did
you ever say anything?

Speaker 4 (46:33):
No?

Speaker 5 (46:34):
I mean I was just kind of keeping him in
the story and we were just talking. I thought it
would just fly away. It never moved and he would
even readjust and he crossed his legs and the fly
never moved. We couldn't catch this fly or kill it,
but it landed on his knee in state.

Speaker 4 (46:50):
I've just never seen a fly do that.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
On Furst's And there's also another thing that we we
want to hit here that that you mentioned, which is
he was saying, Hey, I have a thing that maybe
an implant. I don't think it's a bad thing. It
helps me write, is one of the things you mentioned.
And people who are maybe more on the skeptical side
of Stryber's accounts, I often see them bringing up that

(47:17):
he is also a prolific fiction writer. But I think
that's I think to your point that those two truths
can exist.

Speaker 4 (47:25):
Right.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Do you see people or on the more skeptical side,
do you see people trying to dismiss claims like his
because of other things in their past?

Speaker 5 (47:34):
So actually I literally asked him that. I said, you know,
there's some people out there who, I mean, you're a
very successful storyteller and novelist. There are some people who
may be more skeptical, and they may believe that you've
embellished parts of this story. He challenged that by saying
that his injuries were real and all this stuff. I

(47:57):
will say my personal opinion, and this only comes from
having interviewed probably hundreds of people by now in all
walks of life, some of them being, you know, traumatized victims,
some of them being suspected murderers, some of them being

(48:20):
actual murderers, people who were lying, people who were giving
me half truths, people who told me things that I
thought I wouldn't believe and I ended up believing. Talking
to Whitley, my take is that it feels like he's

(48:41):
embellishing this and I could easily write that off as well.
I mean, yeah, he's a storyteller. He's a good one, right,
and I think he would tell a fantastical version of
him going to the grocery store, you know what I mean.
And it kind of like we all had like an

(49:02):
internal discussion after that about whether or not we believed
him or what we did and didn't believe in. All
of us on the team kind of like landed on
this point of is it even about believing like him
to a degree or like obviously it's part of it,
but like we could just you know, bang our heads

(49:23):
against the wall forever about is he telling the truth.
It's more about like this person has spent his whole
life telling the story. I think that something did happen
to him, especially that first night, something unexplained, something traumatic.

Speaker 4 (49:45):
And I think.

Speaker 5 (49:49):
Even if I were to try to put myself in
his shoes, I might start to blur the lines between
my books and my movies and what I've really experienced.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
And I think that may have been what I was
picking up on.

Speaker 5 (50:08):
I guess I would compare it to Travis Walton, right,
he also has an insane story. But when I sat
down with Travis Walton his I could tell from the
beginning he was like I don't want to do this,
like I don't want to relive this, you know, And
that really I was taken aback by that. I was like, Okay,

(50:31):
this is he really doesn't want to go revisit this. Whitley, however,
was on December twenty sixth, nineteen eighty five.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Okay, well, but.

Speaker 6 (50:42):
My family, it's a defining thing that has shaped his
career and given them a story.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
Toselfah.

Speaker 6 (50:48):
And I'm not saying that he's being disingenuous and to
your point of pain. I think there are versions of
truth in that respect in terms of his belief in
what happened to him and the way it shaped his perspective.
But there's also a bit of an incentive for him
to fantasize it or what's the word, you know, fantastify

(51:09):
it a little bit.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
To fabulate that's the word.

Speaker 5 (51:11):
Yeah, And like I don't want to, you know, because
I'm a creator and we're all creators without a doubt,
if that had happened to me that first night, I
would be writing books and movies about that ship for
the rest of my life. So I definitely don't try
to use that as a variable as to like the

(51:32):
truth test. It was really just like my own human response,
Like that's really kind of and like, that's just based
on my own experiences. I was left with a little
bit of like I don't know if I fully believe that,
and I didn't have any preconceived notions going into it.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
So there's also we have to be fair and say
at this time that you're you're speaking with with Ley,
he has you know this, this happened to him decades ago, right,
and every end. Memory can be tricky because memory asks
you to be your own eyewitness right, and your account
will change or has the potential to change a little

(52:11):
bit each time you remember it. But I think that's
just a phenomenal explanation. I am going to be thinking
about the fly for it.

Speaker 5 (52:20):
So there things like that where I'm like, you know,
the fly thing didn't have to happen, but it did,
you know, like, and it can be totally meaningless, but
I'm like, it does.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
It adds to the weirdness really quickly.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
I would just want to bring up between episodes two
and three, you guys put out a bonus episode that
is pretty short. It is a nineteen eighty six hypnosiscession
that Whitley does with doctor Donald Klein. And when I'm
thinking about the way Whitley tells his story, what he says,
you know, even we'recalling it right now, and how comfortable

(52:55):
he is telling it, I'm thinking about him screaming on
that and how disturbing that is. And then also I'm
thinking about that mechanical voice that he describes that says,
what does this say pain? What can we do to
stop you from screaming?

Speaker 4 (53:13):
Or something like what what can we do to help
you stop screaming? God?

Speaker 3 (53:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (53:19):
What?

Speaker 5 (53:20):
And It's like so like, what can we do to
help you stop screaming? It's like, oh my god, I
don't like that.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
You know.

Speaker 5 (53:28):
Hearing his hypnosis tape and I heard it after I
interviewed him, it did further shape my.

Speaker 4 (53:36):
Doubts.

Speaker 5 (53:37):
I was like, wow, this is in the screaming, was like,
I mean, this is so intense. I don't even know,
like I put like all this in here. So I
put little bits and pieces in that, you know, first episode.
But then I was like, I think people should hear
more of an uncut version of this where it's like
hear him really talk about it, because it's weird, and

(53:58):
that's like, a that's the thing that happened, you know,
that's an early account. If this guy's making it up,
he went through a whole lot to do it.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
And with that, we're gonna take a break. We'll be
right back after a word from our sponsors.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
And we have returned. Let's dive in. I know we're
getting close to wrapping up for time with you here,
but this hits on one of the questions that I
had to ask. I was almost saving it for off air,
but man, all right, what do you think about hypnosis?

Speaker 5 (54:36):
So I've never been hypnotized. I've never, like I guess
I never asked to have been. From what I've gathered
and I've actually talked to legit hypnotists and from what
I know about it, I think it's one of those
things where you can be hypnotized for real, but you

(54:59):
have to to give permission for the content you have
to it's kind of subconsciously. There's other things that we do,
like E. M. D. R therapy or something where we're
kind of unlocking memories. I don't think it's much different
in that sense where it's like traumatic experiences. You know,
people have PTSD from anything. There are you know, ways

(55:24):
and methods of sort of unlocking that stuff and letting
it out and letting it go, or remembering something that
you buried. So hypnosis sounds like a Last Vegas Magician show,
and I think in some cases that's what we're referring to.

(55:45):
But I do think that there is some legitimacy in
some of the usage of it in this stuff.

Speaker 6 (55:51):
Do you think it's interesting though, too, because we know
how fallible our memories can be, and we tell ourselves
these stories and that can shape the way we remember things.
So the notion that hypnosis can unlock stuff. I see that,
but it also feels like it could unlock other false.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
Stuff or.

Speaker 4 (56:12):
It could be creative.

Speaker 5 (56:13):
Yes, if someone misused it, they could definitely influence what
you're saying.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
Especially through like memory regression, which, as we know and
also in previous work right that we've all done, we
know that there are some serious scientific questions about that.
I'm thinking of stuff like the Satanic panic right right,
how memory regression played a huge role there. Would it
be best then to describe actual hypnosis as a consensual

(56:43):
trance state?

Speaker 5 (56:44):
I think so, okay, And it has to be someone
who's trustworthy to do it. I mean, like, there's people
who want to quit smoking cigarettes and they'll go to
a HYPNOTI like a hypnotist, and clearly the guy or
gal is saying don't smoke cigarettes or something like that

(57:04):
in their hypnosis session, So you could tell them to
keep smoking cigarettes, I could assume. So, I mean, there's
ways to like probably do this in a bad way.
But if we're saying that, even then we're lending credence
to it being a potential tool to unlock fuzzy memories

(57:30):
of something that maybe you're subconscious tried to protect you from.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
In that hypnosis session, there's a thing that happens, and
I feel like it has something to do with this
big question of why would some other extraterrestrial civilizations, some
extra dimensional species, Why would they come here? Why would
they contact us? What is the You know, we're replying
our human reasoning and meaning to it, but if you

(57:56):
were looking for a why. In that session from nineteen
eighty six, Whitley says that he is being shown by
these creatures images of Earth exploding, like literally like imagining
yourself perspective in space watching Earth explode. And I think
I keep thinking about that as like maybe a warning

(58:19):
like this is coming or we might we would do
this to you, But it feels more like a warning
like this is a this is going to happen kind
of thing.

Speaker 4 (58:27):
We're definitely capable of doing that to ourselves with nuclear warfare,
right sure.

Speaker 5 (58:32):
And it almost makes me think of Clockwork Orange where
his eyes are peeled open and they're showing them all.

Speaker 4 (58:36):
This bad stuff. Right yeah.

Speaker 5 (58:40):
It could also I mean, if that really happened, it
could also be more like, you know, the way humans
currently are, you guys are very capable of blowing yourselves up.
We know that, and there's a doomsday clock for that,
you know. Yeah, I don't know, And it's in the
The question as to why they would come here there

(59:02):
is that's a very human question, right because because you
could also ask like, well, why haven't you shown yourselves?
Right as if like I mean your favorite celebrity, why
haven't they gone to my city and gone to dinner
with me?

Speaker 4 (59:20):
Because they don't care, they don't know you're you know, Jeff,
you know who you are. You know, it's like that's why.

Speaker 5 (59:26):
But I also look at it like there are places
on our own planet where there are people. There are
islands of people where they are left alone to live
with no technology, and we're like not allowed to.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Go there North Sentine Island, right, Yeah, we'd screw it
all up.

Speaker 4 (59:45):
And so.

Speaker 5 (59:47):
And we have visited or illegally, but like there's sanctuaries basically,
and so I mean even on Earth we to animals
and we're like protecting like you know, a marsh or
like this swamp preserve so the alligators and the ecosystem

(01:00:12):
can continue.

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
It could be something like that.

Speaker 5 (01:00:15):
I mean, if we're talking about something so advanced that
we're sitting here debating today what's real about it or
what's not? Then if it is real, then they would
be advanced enough. Assuming that they're not out to kill us,
which they clearly probably could if they wanted to. Maybe
they're just checking up and doing scientific research like we
do on everything else.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
Yeah, which is also it goes into a beautiful point
you made with the why being a human question, because
we might not be equipped to really get to an
answer because we're functioning under the burdens of humanity and
all the assumptions. But I'd love to stick with the
why for a little bit further out we've said why.

(01:00:57):
You've made High Strange one of the busiest guys we know,
and we all share the same love of the unexplained.

Speaker 4 (01:01:04):
We want to believe.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
What do we hope people walk away from having learned
after experiencing this season of High Strange.

Speaker 5 (01:01:13):
I just want people to open their minds, because if
you just look at the last ten years, fifty years, so,
it's so easy to wake up, even for me every
day and be like this is it. You know, like
there's nothing else coming, there's nothing else really to learn.

(01:01:34):
You feel stuck in just sort of the monotony of this.
You know, we used to do so many things that
we didn't know were harmful to us. We used to
not know that, you know, we could build this thing,
and now it helps us. There's so much that we
don't know, to the point where we can't even think

(01:01:56):
of it yet, because we don't even know enough to
think about solving that problem. And so I just feel
like it's it's naive and also kind of limiting to
yourself to assume that this is it and there's nothing
else out there that we don't fully understand or know

(01:02:21):
about yet. If you gave a caveman an iPhone, he
he wouldn't know how to use it right, and he'd
be like, what the hell is this? He'd probably smash
it with a rock or whip it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
Or worship it. But but you know what he couldn't
do is recreate it, not yet.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
Not unless you had a lockeed Martin and it's print
of energy all.

Speaker 4 (01:02:45):
I love it. I think we all have weird personal experiences.

Speaker 5 (01:02:48):
And you know, there's so much of the world is religious,
and you know, a lot of religion is predicated on
believing things that you can't see in touch and some
people have different experiences, but it's mostly about what you feel,
what you believe, the belief being at the core, and

(01:03:13):
I think there's some real truth and power to that.
And so I think it's just always better to keep
an open mind because I don't know. I feel like
I'm consistently surprised. Even when I have become hell bent
on a certain answer or a way of thinking, I'll
get challenged and go, well, I guess not, you know,

(01:03:36):
and that will continue to happen. Keep an open mind,
and I think the world is more fun through that lens.

Speaker 6 (01:03:43):
It's more of a superpower than a lot of people realize,
because totally it is not. It is not to be
taken for granted, having an open mind and being able
to know what you don't know, and being willing to
learn new things and to challenge your own views. I mean,
especially now more than ever, with the whole lack of
transparency and you know, rhetoric going on.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
I think it's really important.

Speaker 5 (01:04:06):
Do you think Trump's going to release actual files? Do
you think he can't even get them?

Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
I think you might. I think it might be up
to no good.

Speaker 5 (01:04:15):
I don't know, but I think I'm not talking about
the motive I'm talking about. You know, will he fall
through on that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
I don't know. I think it was a reaction to
that statement from the previous previous president that he doesn't
really care for So he heard that and said, yeah,
me too, though, don't forget I'm the cool one.

Speaker 5 (01:04:36):
So do you think it'll just like just drop that.
I think it'll just fizzle out.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Yeah. I think it will likely be vaporware.

Speaker 3 (01:04:43):
It'll be likestein files. Right, there might be some stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:04:46):
At least they released three million of them, even though
they're mostly redacted.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Which itself is a staggering number because three billions still, that.

Speaker 5 (01:04:53):
Always blew my mind, Like do I have three million
of any dou correct?

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
I wonder though, because this is something a lot of
people outside of the United States don't realize. Folks, if
you're watching from somewhere outside of the US, please know
we're a little bit cynical sometimes because every time somebody
runs for president, no matter what party or whatever demographic,
at some point in their campaign they say, yeah, I'm

(01:05:22):
going to figure out aliens every single one.

Speaker 4 (01:05:25):
Or legalize cannabis right a little bit or.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Point.

Speaker 6 (01:05:33):
But there was talk for a minute about nationalizing, uh,
you know, or decriminaliz student debt or changing the scheduling scheduling,
thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
Yeah, well, if if we keep cutting agency funding, then
won't drugs eventually all just become legal by default because
there's no way to like, there's nobody to say what
the schedule is anymore.

Speaker 5 (01:05:54):
That is true, but those still be that one local
sheriff is like, you're going to jail son, you know, Jeremy, all.

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
Right, geeze locals Hey. In episodes twenty five and twenty
six of Up in Vanish season four, Holy crap, I
know more. When when do I get more of my
sweet sweet up and vanished.

Speaker 5 (01:06:14):
The calls that you heard, I got those back in
May of twenty twenty five, and it was at a
really hectic time in my life. It was also the
week that I was going to do that polygraph test
with Oregon John, who was the main suspect in another
associated case in Noam, Alaska.

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
And that was stressful. The whole thing was just wild.

Speaker 5 (01:06:38):
And I kind of slowly communicated with this individual about
getting permission to release the tape, verifying that it was
actually obtained legally, and it was there were all one
Party States. And the craziest thing to me was that
these people were never really on my radar, like that

(01:06:59):
I knew who were in association with everything. But if
you just hear them talking, you're like, why are they
so up in arms about this? Like it just as
a human response. And so I'm currently working on wrapping
up several signed affidavits from different witnesses and individuals close

(01:07:25):
to this, and my plan is to basically button this
up as much as I can and approach the FBI
with it because I think, I mean, I don't think,
I know there is enough evidence here that warrants a
third party to come in. All it takes is one weekend, guys,

(01:07:48):
and just go interview everyone and ask them why they
lied on this day and then this day and that
day and figure it out, you know what I mean.
I can't do that, and they're not going to do it,
because this podcast proves.

Speaker 4 (01:08:03):
That they probably should.

Speaker 5 (01:08:05):
Now if I have, you know, signed out a davits
from family members and witnesses and stuff that I haven't
released and all put together, yeah, I'll give you guys
that after we open a line of communication and then
the clock starts. And then if you don't do anything.

(01:08:27):
Then I just released it all again. So that's it,
just like I did before.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Not the first rodeo by any means, so excited paint. Yeah,
that's gonna be. We're obviously looking forward to this and
seeing how it develops. We also want to know where
people can go to learn more, not just about High
Strange and Up and Vanish, but all your other many projects.

Speaker 5 (01:08:48):
Yes, I mean Tenderfoot TV is the company. We have
dozens of podcasts now suspenseful storytelling, true crime, really powerful
emotional stories, a lot of collaborations with you guys at
iHeart and yeah, go check out Tenderfoot TV. I have

(01:09:12):
several other shows. High Strange is my latest, and if
you're new to that, you can go bene season one.
It's eight episodes. It's an easy listen, very bingeable, and
then you'll be primed for season two. It can go
binge that as well, and then in June we have
a third installment coming out. But yeah, if you want

(01:09:32):
to check out some of my true crime investigations, I mean,
I guess you could start with season one of Up
and Vanished, but I'll sound a little younger, but you
can start anywhere you want, but I would say start
with season four, just because I feel like I've gained
more experience every time.

Speaker 4 (01:09:51):
And I get a little bit more.

Speaker 5 (01:09:54):
Aggressive with my investigative tactics each time, and I think
to some listeners that would be refreshing from what you
you may get from every single true crime podcast that's
out there.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
Well said in Payne Lindsey fellow conspiracy realist, Ladies and gentlemen,
the one and only Pain, thank you so much for
joining us today. Stay safe out there, man, Thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:10:17):
It's crazy out here. It's still dumping, It's it's wild snow, snow, snow.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
What a wild ride of friends watching this on Netflix.
You may notice that we have all shifted to a
blue hue. We are recording this after we had such
a wide ranging, illustrative and somewhat inspiring, somewhat disturbing conversation
with our pal Pain.

Speaker 6 (01:10:47):
It was mainly so we could do a wardrobe change
because it was just that good conversation with Pain. We
were all sweaty, no super super cool. Much appreciated for
Paine's time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
What a neat dude, great.

Speaker 3 (01:11:00):
Podcast, And one thing we talked about in this episode
is the bonus episode that was put out by High Strange,
where it's just the audio from a single hypnosis session,
and it's like, it's pretty raw and scary and pain.
After we recorded this episode, he went in and created
a video asset that you can go watch right now
if you find High Strange on social Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Awesome. Yeah, And we also had to take some time
to figure out how on earth we're gonna get this
guy his special jacket for his fifth appearance on the show,
which we'll be coming up soon. In the meantime, folks,
we would love to hear your thoughts, especially if you
have an experience that you cannot personally explain, whether it's

(01:11:46):
something odd you saw in the sky, whether it's something
like lost time, perhaps sleep paralysis, perhaps you feel you
have met an extra dimensional or extra terrestrial entity. If
so so, let us know. There are so many ways
to get in touch with us. You can find us
on the lines, You can call us on the phone.

(01:12:06):
You can always send us an email. It's true.

Speaker 6 (01:12:09):
If you do seek us out on the aforementioned lines,
you can do so by searching out the handles Conspiracy
Stuff or Conspiracy Stuff Show.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, give yourself a
cool nickname and let us know if we can use
your name and message on one of our listener mail
episodes on the audio feeds wherever you listen to that stuff.
If you've got something else to say to us, why
not write it down and send it in an email.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware yet out of greid the
void rights back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:13:05):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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