April 10, 2026 • 61 mins
Humanity has been obsessed with the idea of death well before the dawn of modern Homo sapiens -- civilization knows what happens to your body when you die, but still has yet to agree on what, if anything, happens to that intangible part of you called the soul. In tonight's episode, Ben, Matt and Noel explore a profound and disturbing rabbit hole: Will modern technology allow us to literally bring back the dead? If so, how? Most importantly, should we?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
A production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
They called me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. Now, to be honest,
for anybody who is listening on your podcast platform of
choice or tuning in to Netflix, your faithful and hopefully
(00:50):
favorite host just got off a very trippy exploration of
a bizarre trend that we have been noticing more and
more of late. Simply put, technological breakthroughs are creating products, goods,
and services that in practice get really close to the
(01:10):
old mythology, folklore and legends of times past. Right. I
think we all had a lot of fun with that one.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, yeah, we're already taking ourselves like towards the whole
the mummy trends with our brand new GLP ones. We
were like pre mummifying ourselves. So now, oh, dear.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, okay, right yeah. In that previous episode, is technology
making legends or magic? Real? We discussed how your local
garden variety AI chatbot functions kind of like a jin right,
or like a spirit summon from the ether. Genetic science
is indeed creating something kind of like chimera. It's just
(01:54):
a trippy time to be alive. We hope you are
alive as you are listening to this. Why would we
even say that? Here's why. There is another huge piece
of this conversation that we saved for an episode all
its own. U see, folks, in a very real way,
emerging technology may also bring back the dead. I can't
(02:18):
believe we're saying it.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I can't believe we're saying it either.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
It's been a big year for Frankenstein reboots, so it's
appropriate I think that that we tackle this topic now
more than ever.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Coincidence, right, Shout out to our pals over it Sound
like and Frequency an amazing hit podcast EP by our
own Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan that explores the intersection
between Big Hollywood and UFO disclosure. So can we really
leverage technology to bring back the dead? Yeah? Kind of
(02:49):
caveat asterisk fine print. Let's say we get into it.
Here are the facts. You've said it before. We hate
to be the fun police about this, but no one
really knows what happens to you, like your mind, your
soul after you die, or at least a lot of
(03:11):
people feel like they know, but they cannot agree on
a universal definition. But we do know what happens to
the body, right, we know what happens to the physical corpse.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Yeah gross stuff, yes, yeah, good, goodie stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, your heart ceases to function, which is one of
the first things because when that breaks down your other organs,
the rest of your body doesn't get the oxygen supply
it needs to function. And what we think is the
most important one the old brain, the thing locked away
in your noggin. When that thing doesn't have oxygen, things
(03:47):
aren't good. And that's when usually massive brain damage occurs.
Even if you could be brought back, if your brain
doesn't have oxygen for a while, it's probably not going
to function.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Correct. I learned the term from my exploration with the
pit called brain death. Yea, you know, I mean obviously
brain dead. I don't why this was a surprise to me,
but a similar scenario happened where an individual on the
show lust supply of oxygen to their brain for long
enough due to a fentanyl overdose, and while their body remains,
(04:17):
you know, functioning, they were for all intents and purposes,
you know dead.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Right and clinically dead is different from legally dead, which
is a whole other bag of badgers. When your hardware
breaks down, right, when the body you ride and your
meat mech begins to folter, your vital organs stop functioning
in any number of series of orders of operations. This
leads to the cessation of breathing and heartbeat. Your brain
(04:46):
activity eventually halts. Rigor mortis sets in. That's the stiffening
of the cadaver, and depending on pull on the environmental conditions,
decomposition is going to start shortly after death. And it's
interesting because we actually know a ton of information about
the physical process of expiring. And it's primarily because, you know,
(05:11):
to put it coldly and accurately, we have a huge
sample size to study. Everybody has ever lived, except arguably
for Henrietta lax Has has died or at some point
will die. Life is a terminal condition. So far as
we know, it is a one Way Street. Also, human
(05:32):
civilization has this huge obsession with the process of death,
so we know a ton about the factors involved. We
know a ton about the science, the environment, the medical conditions,
the external causes that would be the types of death,
and on and on and on. There are entire branches
of medicine and academia dedicated to learning more about this,
(05:56):
including places like the locally famous or region only famous
University of Tennessee's Forensic Anthropology Center. I think we all
know the street name, guys.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
The body you tell us, it's the body far.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I've smelled it, guys.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I've smelled it many times.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
To smell it from afar like a paper mill on
a hot day.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's specific, Yeah, for anybody's in that area Tennessee.
And Matt I love Get Out of My Mind Palace.
Are we both about to shout out the stuff you
should know? Episode? I was going to?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Yeah, it's one of my favorite episodes of that show.
I think it was a long time ago. It's an
old one, but an oldie Buddy goody.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Well.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I remember, you know, thinking that oldies jingles were like
unique to my particular region. But it turns out that
every one of them had them, and a lot of
times they were just reused versions of the same ones
with different call letters. There's always that moment when you
realize that you're not special. But Ben, I mean yeah,
Ever since, like you know, the first human noticed somebody
expiring and started poking them with a stick, I mean,
that's sort of we've been looking into what happens and
(06:59):
figuring it out with varying degrees of precision and success.
But to your previous point, though, no matter how are
we try, that does not open up any view into
the afterlife, which is a whole you know thing, the
region board.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's inarguably morbid for a lot
of people to research physical death, but it's a huge
part of science, and it's inarguably also a huge benefit
to living human beings. Like the more we know about death,
the better prepared we are to stave it off for
as long as possible. So we want to be clear
(07:32):
as we're going into this. There has been this tremendous
amount of tireless research, meaning that humanity is now in
theory better prepared than ever before to help patients recover
from diseases and conditions that once upon a time could
have been a death sentence. You know, no take back seats.
(07:52):
But I like what you're saying there, Noel, I hope
we all do about the other side to this. It's
the one that stretches beyond the bounds of biology and
hard sciences into much trickier waters philosophy, spirituality, faith. What
happens to the non tangible you, the you that you
think of when you think of yourself, when your body
(08:13):
calls it quits. Where's that guy go? Tbd?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Yeah, I mean it's like, you know, even the existence
of the soul is not something that is agreed upon
in any singular fashion or provable per se, despite the
whole like what is it twenty one grams thing, which
is always kind of felt like a little bit flim
flammy to me, But yeah, no it is. It is
the topic of debate for centuries and centuries, the reason
for war, the reason for religion, you know, religion. All
(08:40):
of these various disagreements mainly stem from this idea of
what happens when we when we die?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yeah, this is the great mystery. What happens after this?
And where were we before this? Right?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah? Shout out the Voltaire.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yeah, this is the thing, literally the great mystery of
existence or lie here and I do you know, I
do wonder as we're going to go through this and
talk maybe about some of the ritualization of death and
how different civilizations have kind of prepared the human body
(09:14):
for whatever that whatever that travel is from this realm
into that next place, whatever it may be. There's all
kinds of intricate stuff that goes into making sure you're ready.
Rules you gotta follow, and if you don't follow those rules,
you don't get in right.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, oh, you you died successfully, but you didn't have
sky burial. My bad, So now you are the ghost
of a type predatory bird.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Well, not to mention the beliefs and you know, actions
that you participated in while you were alive. There's all
kinds of rules surrounding that. But I think in the
past we've certainly seen much more physical manifestations of those
things in terms of preparing you know, one's mortal remains
to pass on, and a lot more importance placed on that. Now. Obviously,
(10:03):
the funeral industry feels a little bit a religious to
me in some ways, even though it has a chapel
and it sort of purports to be a service or
an out crop of religion. It feels a lot more
corporatized to me, and a lot more separated from any
particular religious spiritual beliefs. It's interesting, though, maybe I'm overstating
(10:23):
the case on that line.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I don't think so. No, it's a paradigm shift right.
For most of the human's history, a great many religions
did have and will assert that some aspect of you,
the mind or the soul, persist after physical death. And
these belief systems, to that earlier point take it as
a given or dare I say an article of faith
(10:46):
that the mind soul proceeds toward other spiritual destinations based
on one's behavior in life up to and including funeral
preparation or pre death or write at dewn rituals. But
on the other hand, we have to admit atheistic groups
argue there is nothing afterward. Science has diplomatically put current science,
(11:10):
as we record on Friday, April third, twenty twenty six,
that there is no proof of consciousness persisting after the
death of the physical bodies. No ghosts, no holy spirits,
no angels, demons, reincarnation consequences zip zilch nada. It's an
old debate, and it's a debate that's going to continue
(11:32):
because when you think about it, if you're talking about humans,
there are billions of stakeholders in this argument.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
So it was no.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Surprise that a lot of people looked at the available
evidence or lack thereof, and said, you know what, I'm
going to take it on faith. I'm going to choose
to believe what I like. If it makes me a
better person in life, that is great. If it means
that I'm wrong, it doesn't matter. It is my belief.
So everyone has their own take. No one can agree
(12:03):
on what's really happening, and it's always just if you
want to play it long, get home. It's always fascinating
to respectfully ask your friends and family for their own
perspective on death, life's biggest question, and who knows, their
answers might surprise you. It's always great, especially because most
people are not super good at actively listening. So if
(12:25):
you actively listen to someone and you ask them about
something that really matters to them, their answers are going
to amaze you.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
That's why last Wills and testaments are so important. Oh
so they can just let everything you can let somebody
know without any of that, you just and it becomes
a legal document right that somebody else can execute.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Oof.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
You reminded me, I gotta get mind signed. I keep
putting that off. I did do the thing. Yeah, No,
I did the thing, and I just got to get
it notarized. No, it's a really good point. I also
just want to not walk back what I said earlier.
But I'm of course aware that there are still very
many cultures and traditions that have specificurial rights and types
of cemeteries that have certain you know, criteria for getting
(13:05):
into them. Ben, You're always talking about the you know,
remaining tattoo free and all of that.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Okay, hold on, that's that is partially a misnomer. You
can be buried in.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Judaic for if you have Well, I'm just saying it's
I'm referencing it.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Just it's like not great. I feel like the Santa
and I think you should leave, you know what I mean.
It's like I don't have a problem with it, but
you can't get a gift that year.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
I'm just saying too as well. He's even the thing
that I was maybe mentioning regarding the corporatization and the
sort of more business side of the funeral industry. I mean,
they're also kind of try to be a one size
fits all, you know, for any culture, in any faith,
and they have all of the stuff that they need
to make sure that they can accommodate, folks. So I
wasn't intending to say that burial rituals and you know,
(13:51):
preparing the dead isn't a thing anymore. It has just
maybe become a little bit more of like a ketch all,
and it certainly isn't as desperately important and you know,
focused on as it was and say the days of
you know, entombing pharaohs.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
In the like, right, Yeah, one hundred percent, well put,
because we know that these sorts of rituals have unfortunately
become increasingly monetized or commodified in certain cultures. But we
also know this is something that so far is going
to happen to everybody. The debate upon the afterlife still
(14:27):
has not been universally concluded. But this entire debate, folks,
is on the cusp of a massive sea change. In
our twenty fourteen episode The Future of Death, which was
more than ten years ago, now, we looked at existing
technology on the horizon at that time, and we asked
whether science and medicine could Mostly we were asking whether
(14:51):
it could lead to immortality, whether tech could create real
life zombies. But if we fast forward to Friday, April third,
as we record BOYD, to see that science is coming
closer than ever right now to bringing back the dead
Kaveat asterisk, Kafiat fine print, Kafia Asterisk fine print, Kafiyah
(15:11):
astric fine print. Here's where it gets crazy. You heard
us correctly, fellow conspiracy realist bringing back the dead again asterix,
Kaveat fine print a plenty. Maybe, First, guys, we talked
about what we're not saying, Like, we're not saying anybody
(15:33):
has made a quantum powered wijaboard just yet.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
No, we're not talking about the gritty Frankenstein reboot, you know,
made real resurrection men digging up bodies, reanimating the dead.
In that respect, we're also not saying that anyone has
developed some kind of you know, steam as you put
Ben in the dock here, quantum powered steam punk Duisi
(15:57):
board that can you know, communicate beyond the ale with
the spirits of the deceased. Science, as we pointed out
just doesn't have any proof of any such spirits or
even of the existence of soul or whatever quantifiable energy
occupies our meat bodies that animates us and makes a
sense of human people. Most of that research just specifically
(16:20):
about neuro transmitters and the brain, and that's sort of
where it ends. And not to say that people aren't
trying to find those answers. So no one's really made
any sort of drug, for example, that is able to
quote unquote be a life extension technology. We know that
people have crazy regimes to you know, make themselves younger,
(16:40):
and this idea of secret life extension technology for the
ultra ultra elite has certainly been in the conversation for
a long time. But it's my understanding. Guys, correct me
if I'm wrong. We don't have any hard evidence of
that either.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Not of efficacy at least correct.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
We don't have the kill switch technology yet either. That
exists in X Files season five, episode eleven, where you
upload your consciousness into some sort of computer or like
Westworld style. Currently that's not available.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
We also know there are no strange helmets, right like
the god helmet of Hitchin's fame. There are no dimensional
portals allowing you to traverse into the afterlife. Flat Liners
is a great film. Okay, that is a hill that
we will maybe not die on, but we'll take a
shot in the butt for it. Flat Liners is a
(17:36):
phenomenal work of fiction, but it still remains a work
of fiction. However, this is why we're doing an episode
on this. Human civilization is learning and has learned a
lot about bringing people very close to death and then
bringing them back over that rubicon. A lot of this,
and I swear we talked about this previously. A lot
(17:59):
of this hinges on the extreme hibernation techniques that we
already see in some of Earth's other organisms. So in
the in the film Flatliners and countless other novels and
adaptations of novels, you will see somebody who's trying to,
as you said, Noel, do a little bit of frankensteiny stuff,
(18:19):
and they're dropping someone's temperature, they're slowing and stopping their
heart rate, and then they are bringing them back right
usually through you know, the clear electric paddles, maybe some CPR.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Sure, or even the sci fi trope of like cryopods
or cryostasis, or being able to traverse massive distances in
space that would cause one to like age or whatever,
being able to keep them in some sort of stasis. Like,
that's not a thing we can do either. It's not
exactly the same, but it's similar.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Theoretically, right, besides exist, But it's all these pesky laws. Now,
I'm kidding, you're You're right, nol. It's a matter of
some hard technical limits that have to be traversed. We
do know, though, that some organisms can enter torper, something
very close to death, for extreme amounts of time. I
(19:11):
want to give a shout out to tartar grades aka
street name water bears or sometimes I forgot, we never
mentioned this one. Sometimes they're called mossy pigs. Not flattering.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
No, tartar grades are big. Tartar grades and Axilotel's are
big in the plushy community.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
That makes sense, okay, I mean, and tartar grades also
real life tartar grades can enter hibernation, extreme hibernation for
much longer than any human beings that we know of.
Fun fact, tartar grade torper, it has a specific word.
It's called two.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
That's fun And I mean what you're describing there, too,
is a lot like the cryostasis that I was talking about,
because we also have evidence of water bears or tartar
grades surviving in deep space with this very method more
or less right.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
One hundred percent. And at the same time that they're
in that torpor they are they are soldiering through incredibly
high exposure to radiation right other nasty stuff. So to
model oneself after the tartar grade means that you could
(20:24):
theoretically create a human who gets close to something like
death and then you know, you reheat them like microwave meal.
We also know we've talked about this extensively. We know
that scientists have thoroughly studied the phenomena that we call
nd or near death experience. Thankfully, the patients who are
(20:45):
reporting in these studies, they're not seeing the hellish haunting
landscapes from flatliners, but they do report some unusual stuff
and similar, I would say to reports of people on
DMT or certain lucinogens. It's kind of freaky how so
many people with an NDE report something similar when they
(21:08):
come back, even if they've never spoken to other NDE survivors.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Mm HM, and shout out to our buddy Dan Bush
and his podcast series Alive Again. I'll find an episode
where we chatted with him about some of the near
death experiences that he reported on in that series. So
it's definitely a cool exploration of that kind of stuff
and super relevant to what we're talking about today.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I would just say when it comes to near death experiences,
there is such a wide range of report and experience there,
everything from nothingness to the kind of the punishment, the
great punishment, experiencing all the things that you've done but
from the perspective of the people you did them to,
to that welcoming light concept, to being on a stone
(21:51):
slab looking out at some kind of nebula where stars
are forming and life is created. There's just such I'm
ap on that show. So I'm just yeah, I don't
mean to go to too deeply, but there's such a
range of experiences that have occurred. It does make me
wonder and maybe i'm you know, quite a bit influence,
(22:12):
but it makes me pulled more into a camp of
science just doesn't understand yet what consciousness is, because we
know that's true, so there might be there's a possibility
that consciousness does extend out. It's just we don't know
how it interacts once the body has died too.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
If like these near death experiences or obviously we don't
have the reports from the people that you know went
all the way, are not akin to dreams the way
our experience dictates what our brain, what images our brain
presents us with when we're asleep. If there is a
world where as your brain is dying, it's sort of
recalling things or presenting you with something that maybe is
(22:53):
influenced by your beliefs or your experiences, this idea of
your life flashing before your eyes, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Right, I'm glad you said that. Though yet it's almost
seen and setting, is it not. You know, we do
have the science to rely upon if you go to
folks like a professor named Sam Parnia. He's an expert
in cardiac arrest survivors, and he says, you know, the
statistics again to that earlier point are kind of dodgy, right,
(23:22):
because these are self reported experiences, and you'll see a
lot of statistics that say, yes, these are varied, but
a majority or a slight majority people encounter what Parnea
calls quote a right and welcoming light, going into a
tunnel toward a beautiful place, seeing relatives welcome them, maybe
even a panoramic view of their lives. And again that's
(23:45):
not me, that is Sam Parnia, who has studied cardiac
arrest survivors in particular. And to go to stay on
the science here, what if these are not epic metaphysical
road trips. It is true to that earlier point that
humanity still cannot define nor truly understand consciousness. But what
(24:06):
if on a physical level, on a neurological level, these
are hallucinations caused by dying brains. Science has attempted to
explain at least one of the most common report of
a near death experience, which is seeing that tunnel of light.
In particular, they're saying, once your heart stops beating, right,
(24:28):
not everything stops at once. Once your heart stops beating,
your brain's visual cortex gets activated by a surge of
electrical activity, and this can continue up to thirty seconds
after an individual is dead. So the burst is thought
by a lot of the waffins to account for this
highly visual experience that people have. And then your heart restarts,
(24:52):
and then your back right, and everybody is saying, hey,
what happened, and you say it was crazy? Man, it
was a wild ride.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
The only thing that I would fight back against. I know,
there's a lot I would fight back against that a lot,
just because some people have died for minutes, for seconds,
for even longer than that. In very rare cases, people have,
you know, spent twenty minutes clinically dead or you know,
almost thirty minutes clinically dead. So it just and who's
(25:24):
to say what the subjective experience is if we're talking
about these surges of electrical activity and what that would
look like, you know, from a visual perspective inside a
body that's going through that. I like that there's science.
I just I think we're dealing in a realm here
that is a little, at least currently outside of the
scope of measurability. I think I tend to agree with
(25:47):
that as well.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Like I mean, I'm not a religious person, and I
don't really hold any particular beliefs regarding the afterlife, but
I do think that there is obviously something that's outside
of just electrical impulses and organs that inform who we
are as people, and I'm absolutely curious as to what
happens to that. I do think it is some sort
(26:08):
of harnessing of electricity and in data points and information
that coalesce into you know, a personality and a human
And I have a hard time believing that that just
disappears if we're talking about energy being able to be
not be destroyed, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
But I don't know about any of that stuff.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
But I'm with you, Matt. I think a lot of
this stuff is outside of the realm of It's again,
it's that crossover between spirituality or metaphysics and you know, physics.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
And I appreciate that point. No, you know, this is
this is the important part of human civilization. Has yet
to crack the code on bringing back anybody who has
been clinically dead past a certain amount of time. So
to that earlier comment, you know, generally spending more than
thirty minutes clinically dead and coming back without major brain
(26:54):
damage is very rare. The current world record for being
clinically dead and returning without being heavily damaged goes to
Velma Thomas. Velma Thomas in two thousand and eight was
clinically dead. Forget this, folks, seventeen hours after suffering multiple
(27:15):
cardiac arrest and another get this. While we're getting each
other she was an organ donor, so Thomas literally woke
up alive, conscious, breathing as medics were preparing to take
out her bits. Now that's nightmare fuel seventeen hours. That's
the record. Also, don't try that at home. It's weird because,
(27:39):
as I think we can all agree we're saying here,
every so often we discover another puzzle piece, another fascinating
bit of knowledge or research, forcing us to rethink existing
paradigms and assumptions, not just about the world, but about
ourselves and more importantly, about the world in which we live.
So thousands of thousands of thousands of years into the
(28:01):
game called humanity, civilization is still having to ask, you
know what if So if we were all to try
and leverage current and emergent technology, could we make a
real life Lazarus? How I think we can posit. The
two biggest paths right now are what we can call
(28:21):
replacement and recreation. Also a tricky word because I almost
said recreation, But whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Are we talking about? The startup that's trying to make
brainless human clones that you can put your brain into.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Well, geez, when you put it like that, Matt, it
sounds like, yeah, that would be correct.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
That is our three bios, So to give you some
setup before to get to them. This idea of replacement
addresses what we can call the body problem, not the
three body problem, but the basic concept is if a
person is in decent cognitive shape, like their brain, their
software is fine, but their body is failing. What if
(28:57):
we could create a new body and insert that healthy
brain into that. This body could be electronic, a biomechanical hybrid,
it could be entirely organic. Talk about shades of Sci
Fi heads floating in jars, you know, giant robots steered
by a little human brain in their guts.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Are we talking about crying craying?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
My guy? Right, that's pretty far out, but we may
be closer than the public assumes. So. Just a few
days ago and a little bit longer, the news broke
about a startup company called R three bio out of Richmond, California. Now,
until MI T Technology Review did a little bit of
deep diving, R three bio was saying, we want to
(29:42):
raise money to create non sentient monkey based organ sacks.
They're phrases not ours, not mine. That's good that don't
attack me for that.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Oh yeah, just organiz I'm impressed.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, it's and their their pitches. It's an alternative to
animal testing. Right, So now we're not actually harming a
conscious sentient being. We have just grown a thing that
has a kidney that we can experiment on. But it
turns out in private, they've been pitching the idea of
creating brainless clones to serve as human backup bodies.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
Yes, indeed, a journalist Antonio Regalado describes it thusly, imagine
it like this, a baby version of yourself with only
enough of a brain structure to be alive in case
you ever need a new kidney or a liver, or
alternatively found John Skolndorn has speculated you might one day
(30:38):
get your brain placed into a younger clone. That could
be a way to gain second lifespan through a still
a hypothetical procedure known as body transplant. Guys, this is
giving blood boy the energy, but like an escalation of
that that obviously only the mega mega mega mega mega
mega rich are going to be able to mess with.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, I mean, let's say, okay, so let's take that
argument in good faith. Let's say someone has experienced catastrophic
physical trauma, maybe something fatal or an otherwise fatal cardiac arrest.
If they had this service, and this service worked and
everything went according to plan, their physical body, their body
(31:18):
prime would die while their brain was somehow preserved and
then inserted into the new largely brainless weighting body. The
person then, in a sense, would have died and been resurrected.
There's some ethical quandaries, you know, couple.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
I don't want to spoil anything, but definitely check out
Jordan Peele's get Out Do.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
It, very good banger. Check out all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
This particular thing. Did you guys see some recent studies.
I don't know how much I wait, I would put
on them to the individual studies, but talking about cellular
consciousness as though individual cells actually store memories, and this
potential that the entire body is what becomes consciousness through
(32:10):
all the organs and through the connectivity and the electrical
and the stuff your heart does with essentially these energy fields.
It's weird. It's kind of it's kind of it seems
why I could do But it also seems almost to
make more sense to me than some of the other
biological explanations that we've had for consciousness and just neural
it's just neural connections, guys.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I mean quadum physics. It gets neurobiology gets so close
to spirituality at some point, you know, I love the
idea that ultimately, right now, so many things that are
accepted as normal sounded bonkers, right, electric lights, light after dark?
That's not based on burning animal fat. Get them out
of here. That guy's a warlock. Maybe we're in that stage.
(32:54):
We're also in the stage where some of the world's
smartest people get together and they say, I don't know
what if you know, what if it's consciousness as a
sell you know, on a cellular level.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Well, it's a fun wd if to say, what if
we could take that brain out of that dead body,
put it into a new body that has the same
blood type. Obviously, and now they've just got a we
got a crane on our hands, except it's up here
instead of down there in the tummy. But how do
you get past the whole brain damage of it? All? This?
You know, once you would have to get somebody into surgery,
(33:27):
real quick.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Tight time window. Yeah, just like flatliners. But we have
a couple of yeah, ethic quandary, ethical quandaries aside, we
have a couple of hard operational badgers and rub a
CODs to traverse artificial wounds do not yet exist, so
brainless bodies cannot be grown in a lab. That means
(33:50):
that the first batch of these brainless clones would have
to be carried by human women paid to do the job.
In the future, however, you could place that first wave
by making one brainless clone that can give birth to another.
Nothing evil or ghoulish about that.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Oh wait, wait wait, didn't we just talk about an
artificial womb on Strange News a little while back. The
company that's that's their goal is to produce artificial wounds.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
It's their goal, but they haven't attained it yet. Okay, yeah,
And like, secondly to your point, once we're over the
habeas corpus badger, right, once we have the replacement body,
how do we connect the brain. This is one of
the trickiest things again, ethics Asi. Right now, brains cannot
be reattached to the spinal cord after an injury. That's
(34:43):
because the central nervous system itself has an extremely limited
ability to self repair. Right. That's why some of the
most wealthy people are powerful people. You could imagine when
they encounter paralytic injury to their spinal cord like Christopher
(35:03):
Reeves would be an example. There is no medicine yet
that can repair that. So how would we be able to,
like what kind of mechanism or improvement would need to
be extant or in play for us to take a
brain out in that tight time window you just described
and then plug it in, you know. Shout out to
(35:24):
anybody who's done cable management in the past, any it
folks who had to run a surfer and figure out
where all the wires go. This is that times like
a million, if not a billion. We can't do it yet.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Quick shout out to the artificial womb thing. I remembered
this from a Guardian article. There's there's a website called
aqua womb dot eu where you can check out the
perhaps the closest that we have right now to this
thing that looks like an artificial womb where a like
a baby could grow and gestate very simpimilarly to being
(36:01):
in a woman's womb.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, and hopefully that will be on the way because
it is. It is potentially life saving technology, but it's
still technology, which means it can be used for good
or for real technology is not inherently moralistic if we Okay,
so let's say the artificial womb thing works out, right,
Let's say the brainless clone quote unquote is created, and
(36:26):
let's say there's a way to we figure out some
interface where you can hook up a brain to a
new body the same way you would put it an
old school Nintendo cartridge. Right, Maybe you just blow at
the end of it if it doesn't connect first, and
then you pop it back in. I am dating myself.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That's a really interesting idea. If you could connect it
to a device so it's not physically connected to whatever
the body is. That feels like you're getting more into
the robotics version of this.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
That'd be the biomechanical hybrid for sure. And like, the
only way you could tell if someone came back from
the dead was they would have a little ring of
metal around their net. I'm not going to do it.
I'm not gonna show you, guys, not this episode. But
so even after we solve for those two hard operational issues, guys,
(37:16):
this is a legal ethical disaster. It is. It would
be unprecedented in all of human history. Is the new
You still legally you your fingerprints, right, your face, your retina,
they will all be different. Do you still have the
same assets? Do you still have to pay your carn
and your student loan? Do you have the same Social
(37:37):
Security number? Are you like legally divorced? Are you still marry?
I think if history is any indicator, humanity is going
to wrestle with this or try to legislate this technology
only in reaction to it, which means a beat me here,
Dylan and Jordan. A ton of people are going to
suffer in the process, especially the early adopters. I don't
(38:02):
know that's up. There were brain implants. Would you guys
do it? Would you guys try it?
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Those early adopters are going to pay a craft ton
of money to be a part of it into some early.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Adoption though, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
And also you know, early adopters typically get like they're
the guinea pigs. They're paying out of the nose to
be the guinea pigs for the thing.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
But they'll get their name on that brick.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
You also get your name in the history book. You
just don't know how right, You don't know if you're
a footnote or a chapter. And that happens to a
lot of people.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I helped make this ballroom. I mean this, what are
we talking about.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
General Vaughan on Sandwich, the fourteenth of the third died
in the world's first marginally successful brain replacement transplant therapy.
His final words were, man, man you So maybe there's
another way to bring back the dead them. We outlined
(38:58):
two paths. This is the first one, right replacement of
some sort at base, this text idea is arguably a
little less coolish. I would say it's a different kind
of ghoulish, but it still carries a huge wave of
ethical dilemmas in its wake. Let's call this one resurrection
by recreation. Ooh, let's take a break. We'll be right back. Recreation, Dylan,
(39:28):
if you will some cinematic music, picture your brain. If
you have an MRI scan lying around, now's the time
to pick that bad oy up. Play a long guit home.
Look at it. Your brain is astonishing, Just like a
snowflake or a fingerprint. It is inherently unique. It is
the engine power in all of human civilization, and humans
(39:51):
still don't fully understand how it works. End scene.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
I mean, who I really thought you said recreation and
I was getting all excited.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
I was like, are we going to the park, throw
the frisbee of the mind, I mean, without soapboxing, guys.
I think it's best for all of us to think
of our minds or souls, whatever you want to call them,
less like an entity, less like a distinct dot in
the landscape of reality, and more like a pattern. More
(40:22):
poetically put, a song that sings itself. The billions of
blips and electrical and chemical activity that occur at every
second of your lived existence in your brain cumulate to
create a byzantine series of circuits and functions, memories, emotions, imaginings.
That is, all of those things, they're the notes in
(40:44):
the song that is you. So what if we can
map all of that out? What if we could recreate
it flawlessly and an emulation with such very similitude that
it is inseparable or in disinguishable from the original. It'd
be a cover band right of your soul.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, but you could make you if you could somehow
digitize it right, you could make as many copies as
you want. You could make like cortical stacks and put
them in the necks of folks, you know, and then
you could alter that carbon shout out.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I thought that was very well done. You could also
make some little tweaks, right if you're a capitalist endeavor.
Just last year, Google and Harvard announced the most detailed
map of the human brain so far. This is not
the same thing as mapping an entire human personality via
brain activity. Similar to a map of Iran that just
(41:45):
has topography in cities and maybe hidden missile bases. That's
not going to be the map that captures the names, relationships,
and goals of the people who actually live in Iran.
So we don't have a full full map out yet,
but it is theoretically possible. It is theoretically possible to
map out all the activities of a human brain. It
(42:05):
is theoretically possible to recreate that entire pattern on a
different medium. To wit, it is theoretically possible to create
a copy of your soul on a circuit board. I
don't know, man, I don't know if I love it.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
It just gets back to that dang problem. We just
don't fully know how these systems work together to make
you you and play that lovely song. And we just
don't know.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah, like, do we have to attach the gut biome
as well as another factor of variables that influences personality
and behavior.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
It very likely might be a huge part of how
the signals actually get to you and all of those
receptors that we're talking about. We always think it's all
up in the head part, but man, there is other stuff.
We know that that biome can make you feel certain
ways and even act differently.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
What was it was a stick you said, if you
eat wrong, you think wrong. That was another guy he
must end, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
I know that's true. Who ever said it? Truth?
Speaker 2 (43:08):
I mean, if we could figure this out, we being civilization,
not your humble and hopefully favorite host, If we could
figure this out. From that point, it becomes relatively trivial
to create a means of communication from that circuit board
or that other medium to the outside world. That becomes
a new ship of thesis. This copy would be a
(43:29):
recreation of your brain activity in all respects. It would
theoretically function a lot like you. But would it be you?
What happens if someone gets the first comprehensive reproduction without dying,
they speak directly to it. Would you prime and you
two point zero get along? What would you guys talk about?
(43:49):
I mean, we're not there yet, but this is one
of those Atopica bases. This is like a mind breaker
kind of thing. I stay up too much thinking about
that one.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Me and my other cortical stack would just talk about
Jerry Seinfeld and.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
And what's the deal with cortical stacks.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
In the Epstein files?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
What's the deal with Jeffrey? I think you guys have
a great conversation. I mean, we're not there yet in
twenty twenty six, but we are way closer than at
any point known history. Make no mistake, this is on
the way, fellow conspiracy realist, humanity is yet to create
a one hundred percent accurate functional representation of a single
(44:35):
human mind. But we have to remember science is a
battle of increments more often than it is a battle
of huge cinematic revelations. So we are getting closer and
closer to the goal. It weighs that terrify a lot
of observers, and you don't have to wait for one
hundred percent ship of thesis emulated human to emerge just yet.
The short term is arguably even a little bit scarier.
(44:59):
Can we talk about death bots? Those are like the
proto types.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Is this the thing where we're talking about scanning all
of the online presence from someone and theoretically making using
an LLM to recreate someone's preferences, maybe sarcasm levels, what
else their.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Speech cadence, especially if you have audio, their reread elections, values, opinions,
interaction statements.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
This is even making a virtual version, right, like virtually
represented physical version.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, and then put your dead mom in a rumba.
See how that works? Yeah? But yeah, the short term
nailed it. There is for now powered by big data.
If you're like a lot of people these days, to
that earlier point, you have some sort of social media presence,
you have some sort of handle and Gretel level breadcrumbs
of online activity. You have a footprint to fingerprint. So
(45:57):
the more online you are, and the more well docked
imented your thoughts and activities are, the closer the boffins
can get to making an imperfect emulation of you. Street
name deathbots. They're designed to simulate voices, interaction patterns, personalities
of the deceased. So everything you can feed into this
(46:17):
combine harvester voice recordings, text messages, email, social media posts. Right,
what are they like and dislike? What do they love?
What made them toss? The anger emoji? Or you know,
like a sunglasses emoji. It things you can create interactive
avatars that appear to speak from beyond the grave, not
(46:38):
white bring him back the dead. But a lot of
people refer to this as technology of illusion.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
Who guys, I cannot remember. A while back at in
the House Stuff Works Days, we were talking about a
scientist that created a robot head. It's like the head
in just the upper torso here, and it was modeled
after his spouse. I believe that's right. Oh, it was
an attempt early on to do this very thing we're
(47:05):
talking about to rebuild espouse's I guess personality as this
physical thing he could talk to and interact with. I
cannot remember for the life of me the name of
the person. It's not Paul Ekman, No, no Hanson? No
(47:26):
is it David Hanson? Do you remember?
Speaker 4 (47:28):
Can you?
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Can you guys picture this in your head?
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yah? Yeah, no, No, I know exactly. I mean, even
in this head, I know exactly the one you're talking about.
I just it's on the tip of my tongue. Please
let us know, because that was again to that point
that that is a study of science as a battle
of incremental wins, right, but it's it's still it's it's
pretty creepy, you know. They're also following up on that.
(47:53):
I love this point because there are years of research
going into this. There are right now as we record
on April twenty six, there are multiple organizations doing this stuff,
doing it as a business. If you go to The
Conversation in November twenty twenty five, you'll see an excellent
piece by the experts Eva Nietto, McVoy and Jenny Kidd,
(48:16):
who are experimenting with these services as part of something
called Synthetic Past. Synthetic Past explores the impact technology as
on the preservation of personal and collective memory, and guys,
they describe everything they did as fascinating and unsettling. Maybe
(48:36):
we can go to a direct quote on how they
describe these systems.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Just before we jump into that. Guys, I'm trying to
use Google right here to use keywords to find the
dang thing that I can see in my head. I
remember it, and it just doesn't seem to exist. I'm
doing all kinds of the you know, the super searcher tricks,
using quotations and minuses and all the other stuff. I
swear it. It just does not function anymore. Okay, that's it.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
Oh dear wow, good thing, we got some info right
in front of us. Google Free. So they describe their
discoveries as quote both fascinating and unsettling, which I think
we can all concur with saying that some quote systems
focus on preserving memory. They help users record and store
personal stories organized by themes convenient, such as childhood, family
(49:28):
or advice for loved ones. These agents then index the
contents and guide people through it like a searchable archive.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yeah, and other companies are going to use what they
call generative AI to make and participate in ongoing dialogue,
ongoing conversations. So you could upload, for example, all the
data you have from this once living person. From there,
the system creates a chatbot that not only responds in
the dead individual's tone and stuff, but further leverages machine
(50:02):
learning to evolve and refine itself over time. Recently, in
an episode of Sauce on the Side, we talked about
this as a technique that could possibly fix the time
window biological limits of replacement technology, because in theory, you
just need the right system and as much data as possible.
You don't actually need the brain. You don't have to
(50:25):
have the happiest corpus moment. In fact, you could go
through history and find anybody who is extremely well documented
and I think we're talking about Kissinger with Gandhi, Yeah,
Henry Kissinger. You could take everything we know about that
guy and all the audio video clips, and you use
that existing data to create what we would call Kissinger
(50:46):
from beyond the Grave. And if you had the right
amount of programming finesse, old KFBTG wouldn't just be regaling
us with his previous war crimes. You could feed this
thing new information about current events, and the way it
would react would be very similar to the way Kissinger
Prime would react if the old villain was still cooking well.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
And this is another example of technology outpacing legislation and
the idea of personhood and such like. If we were
at a situation where we had robust enough facsimiles of
people from the past that were then used in some
sort of consulting capacity, actually, you know, participating in making
(51:29):
decisions of a great magnitude that affect human beings. I
just feel like that's something that the.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Law would want to weigh in on.
Speaker 4 (51:37):
But as we know these days, the deal is just
kind of you know, asking for forgiveness, not even asking
for forgiveness, just doing the thing and then waiting to
get sued and then seeing what happens later.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
You know, first we asked for funding, and we ask
for forgiveness.
Speaker 4 (51:53):
If we ever asked for forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Shout out to R three. Yeah, I mean this is
happening now. There's a great article as we make the
Rounds artificially alive at exploration of AI resurrections and spectral
labor modes in a post mortal society. This is a banger.
Read it if you get a chance. They're looking at
more than fifty real world cases from across the planet
(52:15):
where these and similar technologies are used to recreate the voices, faces,
and personalities of dead human beings. It's astonishing, it's terrifying.
Remember how we said this scenario has its own ethical
tsunamis on the way. Imagine how this could impact grieving
loved ones. How many of us are really emotionally prepared
(52:37):
to speak with our dead mothers or dead fathers when
doing so help or hinder your grieving process? I mean,
Jesus Hubert Christ, what would you do if you booted
up the program for the first time, and your mom's
first words were, I begged you not to bring me back.
Speaker 4 (52:56):
Yeah, they're just like kill me. Like that's another sci
fi t But we talked about that with Gandhi as well,
the idea of how she kind of started goofing around
with a video generation software to kind of see how
someone made a video that sort of punked her and
made her look like she was like making out with
somebody at a party, and then before she knew it,
she was on that slippery slope of bringing back her
(53:17):
her deceased you know, the love of her life, ex boyfriend,
ex partner, And what a quick walk that was, and
how she immediately saw the temptation of it, and saw
the intoxication of it and what a dangerous thing it
could be and backed the frick away from it.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
I know myself enough to know that I would find
a way to pay an exorbitant amount of money to
be able to have philosophical discussions with my grandfather again.
But if it was through a service like this, and
I knew that it was just a representation, a phony
version of him, I would not pay that money, right
(53:55):
because ultimately, you want to have discussions. You know, somebody
like my grandfather who was really interested in more in
his own mortality and what comes next and all the
things we're talking about today, then talking to some generated
version that's just going to pull from the Internet ideas about,
you know, potentially what he's experiencing in the FROA. It
would just be this thing that's meant to make you
feel a way, kind of the way lllms do all
(54:18):
across the board.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
Right, that's a great idea. No, I'm kidding, It is
actually a great observation. It is because you know, there's
the question of consent, right, there's the question of respect.
Is this disrespectful to the people who actually lived? Did
they consent to have some toy built to look like
(54:41):
them dance around when they wanted to be gone? And
we also know there's the potential for AI psychosis check
out our episode on that. There's also the ever present
potential for anything called AI to hallucinate. And don't even
get us started on that Black Mirror episode about ads
driven resurrection.
Speaker 4 (55:00):
Well, there was another Black Mirror episode where a woman's
husband died in a car accident and she used the
service to basically bring back you know, using collating all
of his information from online, from the Internet, scraping of
social media, all of that stuff, and then implanting all
of that into a body played by oh gosh, Damal
(55:22):
dummal Gleason. It was and it's one of those things
where I picture the trope from science fiction and horror
where it's like, that's not your mother, that's you know
what I mean, Like you're talking to this thing, but
that's not that's not your father, that's not your brother,
and that's not your exactly.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
Oh, good luck, half fun, don't die. I can't recommend
it enough.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
Go see it now. I enjoyed it. It's it's it's
worth your time. It's streaming now as well. Uh. The
the third issue here is what about the legal implications
is bringing back you know, if I bring back my
dead biological mother, does that mean she has all her
sets intact.
Speaker 4 (56:01):
Saying with personhood Just the idea of there's so many
things that it'll take the laws so long to even
wrap its head around.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
You know. Yeah, does Kissinger from Beyond the Grave have
to stand trial for previous war rhymes? Or can or
can k be KFBTG just say ah, I'm Kissinger two
point zero can't get me of too slick.
Speaker 4 (56:22):
How does it likely that I think the argument would
be made that it's more likely that because it's I
don't think that anyone would reasonably say it is him.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
It's just as united. Right, Well, that's right. Personhood for convenience.
Speaker 4 (56:35):
One hundred percent. I'm just saying, given the inconvenience of
such a claim, and also the factor is just kind
of indicating, no, this isn't him. This is just the
closest thing we can do by scraping all this information
from history. And how is that any different than just,
you know, researching the person and making decisions based on
what the research says they would have done. It's just
like that.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
It's just like that. Their argument is that it's different.
But to that point, noel uh Is it similar to
that pope who dug up the corpse of another pope
and put the corpse on trium and it share up? Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (57:07):
What if Kissinger came back and said, you know, we're
not supposed to be seduced that way, right, But I am.
When someone's nice to me, I love that person, even
if they're bad people. I couldn't care less I'll fight
to the end for them.
Speaker 4 (57:20):
Where are you reading this from You're scaring me? What?
Speaker 3 (57:24):
Yeah, well that's a little easter egg Okay, cool? Cool?
Speaker 4 (57:27):
Well happy Easter at there?
Speaker 2 (57:29):
Ah, Yes, happy Easter. Chegged so much to anybody celebrating
passover as we're recording, there's so much more to get
to here. It's frankly impossible for us to do it now, folks,
because the story has yet to be written. Make no mistake,
and less civilization as you know it falls. This stuff
is on the way. Here's where we leave it for now.
(57:50):
Humanity has no idea what the great majority would think
of this. By the great majority, I mean the dead,
if the mind soul persist after the body fails. It's
doubtless that billions of people from the past would like
to come back. They've got some stuff to say, you
know what I mean. They want to finish their Type
five or they're Type fifteen. But it's also doubtless that
(58:11):
billions of people would prefer not to return, And we
can't really figure out those preferences without a chance to
speak with them and get their consent or lack thereof directly.
So at the time of this recording, again Friday, April third,
twenty twenty six. No spirit of a deceased person has
reached out to either this show or the living world
(58:32):
at large to comment. And perhaps that is because they
don't exist until we create them, or maybe they're out
there somewhere and they harbor something they don't want us
to know.
Speaker 3 (58:43):
What if we could bring people back and then black
mirror style put them in a white bear scenario and
punish them for forevermore.
Speaker 4 (58:54):
Oh, guys, speaking of that, that's a really interesting point, Matt.
There's a film that I just heard about as like
an indie that's probably going to be available streaming soon
called Redus Reducts, where it's about a woman who can
travel through time in order to kill over and over
again a person who has wronged her in a horrific way,
and what that would feel like, and what that would
do to a person in terms of the addiction of it,
(59:17):
the intoxication of it, How would you do it when
presented with that opportunity. It sounds fascinating and the big
picture folks talked about it and said it felt kind
of like seeing early you know, Jim Cameron movie and
seeing the promise of what that you know talent was
gonna become so I'm really excited to check out redus
reducts Okay, check out also Mauer mctargets secret mutant power
(59:42):
from the X Men universe.
Speaker 2 (59:43):
I'm not going to spoil anymore. She's most famously known
as the lover of Professor X and this has been
the stuff they don't want you to know. Thank you
so much for joining us. We cannot wait to hear
from you as we continue more episodes. You can be
part of of our weekly listener mail segment. We're going
to be bringing you weekly strange news every Monday on
(01:00:06):
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Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
If you were to seek us out on the lines,
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Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
We have a phone number. Why don't you call it?
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Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
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(01:01:11):
episode that your fellow conspiracy realist will enjoy. We'll see
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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Speaker 2 (00:12):
A production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
They called me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. Now, to be honest,
for anybody who is listening on your podcast platform of
choice or tuning in to Netflix, your faithful and hopefully
(00:50):
favorite host just got off a very trippy exploration of
a bizarre trend that we have been noticing more and
more of late. Simply put, technological breakthroughs are creating products, goods,
and services that in practice get really close to the
(01:10):
old mythology, folklore and legends of times past. Right. I
think we all had a lot of fun with that one.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Well, yeah, we're already taking ourselves like towards the whole
the mummy trends with our brand new GLP ones. We
were like pre mummifying ourselves. So now, oh, dear.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, okay, right yeah. In that previous episode, is technology
making legends or magic? Real? We discussed how your local
garden variety AI chatbot functions kind of like a jin right,
or like a spirit summon from the ether. Genetic science
is indeed creating something kind of like chimera. It's just
(01:54):
a trippy time to be alive. We hope you are
alive as you are listening to this. Why would we
even say that? Here's why. There is another huge piece
of this conversation that we saved for an episode all
its own. U see, folks, in a very real way,
emerging technology may also bring back the dead. I can't
(02:18):
believe we're saying it.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I can't believe we're saying it either.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
It's been a big year for Frankenstein reboots, so it's
appropriate I think that that we tackle this topic now
more than ever.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Coincidence, right, Shout out to our pals over it Sound
like and Frequency an amazing hit podcast EP by our
own Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan that explores the intersection
between Big Hollywood and UFO disclosure. So can we really
leverage technology to bring back the dead? Yeah? Kind of
(02:49):
caveat asterisk fine print. Let's say we get into it.
Here are the facts. You've said it before. We hate
to be the fun police about this, but no one
really knows what happens to you, like your mind, your
soul after you die, or at least a lot of
(03:11):
people feel like they know, but they cannot agree on
a universal definition. But we do know what happens to
the body, right, we know what happens to the physical corpse.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Yeah gross stuff, yes, yeah, good, goodie stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, your heart ceases to function, which is one of
the first things because when that breaks down your other organs,
the rest of your body doesn't get the oxygen supply
it needs to function. And what we think is the
most important one the old brain, the thing locked away
in your noggin. When that thing doesn't have oxygen, things
(03:47):
aren't good. And that's when usually massive brain damage occurs.
Even if you could be brought back, if your brain
doesn't have oxygen for a while, it's probably not going
to function.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Correct. I learned the term from my exploration with the
pit called brain death. Yea, you know, I mean obviously
brain dead. I don't why this was a surprise to me,
but a similar scenario happened where an individual on the
show lust supply of oxygen to their brain for long
enough due to a fentanyl overdose, and while their body remains,
(04:17):
you know, functioning, they were for all intents and purposes,
you know dead.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Right and clinically dead is different from legally dead, which
is a whole other bag of badgers. When your hardware
breaks down, right, when the body you ride and your
meat mech begins to folter, your vital organs stop functioning
in any number of series of orders of operations. This
leads to the cessation of breathing and heartbeat. Your brain
(04:46):
activity eventually halts. Rigor mortis sets in. That's the stiffening
of the cadaver, and depending on pull on the environmental conditions,
decomposition is going to start shortly after death. And it's
interesting because we actually know a ton of information about
the physical process of expiring. And it's primarily because, you know,
(05:11):
to put it coldly and accurately, we have a huge
sample size to study. Everybody has ever lived, except arguably
for Henrietta lax Has has died or at some point
will die. Life is a terminal condition. So far as
we know, it is a one Way Street. Also, human
(05:32):
civilization has this huge obsession with the process of death,
so we know a ton about the factors involved. We
know a ton about the science, the environment, the medical conditions,
the external causes that would be the types of death,
and on and on and on. There are entire branches
of medicine and academia dedicated to learning more about this,
(05:56):
including places like the locally famous or region only famous
University of Tennessee's Forensic Anthropology Center. I think we all
know the street name, guys.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
The body you tell us, it's the body far.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I've smelled it, guys.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I've smelled it many times.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
To smell it from afar like a paper mill on
a hot day.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's specific, Yeah, for anybody's in that area Tennessee.
And Matt I love Get Out of My Mind Palace.
Are we both about to shout out the stuff you
should know? Episode? I was going to?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Yeah, it's one of my favorite episodes of that show.
I think it was a long time ago. It's an
old one, but an oldie Buddy goody.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Well.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
I remember, you know, thinking that oldies jingles were like
unique to my particular region. But it turns out that
every one of them had them, and a lot of
times they were just reused versions of the same ones
with different call letters. There's always that moment when you
realize that you're not special. But Ben, I mean yeah,
Ever since, like you know, the first human noticed somebody
expiring and started poking them with a stick, I mean,
that's sort of we've been looking into what happens and
(06:59):
figuring it out with varying degrees of precision and success.
But to your previous point, though, no matter how are
we try, that does not open up any view into
the afterlife, which is a whole you know thing, the
region board.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's inarguably morbid for a lot
of people to research physical death, but it's a huge
part of science, and it's inarguably also a huge benefit
to living human beings. Like the more we know about death,
the better prepared we are to stave it off for
as long as possible. So we want to be clear
(07:32):
as we're going into this. There has been this tremendous
amount of tireless research, meaning that humanity is now in
theory better prepared than ever before to help patients recover
from diseases and conditions that once upon a time could
have been a death sentence. You know, no take back seats.
(07:52):
But I like what you're saying there, Noel, I hope
we all do about the other side to this. It's
the one that stretches beyond the bounds of biology and
hard sciences into much trickier waters philosophy, spirituality, faith. What
happens to the non tangible you, the you that you
think of when you think of yourself, when your body
(08:13):
calls it quits. Where's that guy go? Tbd?
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Yeah, I mean it's like, you know, even the existence
of the soul is not something that is agreed upon
in any singular fashion or provable per se, despite the
whole like what is it twenty one grams thing, which
is always kind of felt like a little bit flim
flammy to me, But yeah, no it is. It is
the topic of debate for centuries and centuries, the reason
for war, the reason for religion, you know, religion. All
(08:40):
of these various disagreements mainly stem from this idea of
what happens when we when we die?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yeah, this is the great mystery. What happens after this?
And where were we before this? Right?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah? Shout out the Voltaire.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yeah, this is the thing, literally the great mystery of
existence or lie here and I do you know, I
do wonder as we're going to go through this and
talk maybe about some of the ritualization of death and
how different civilizations have kind of prepared the human body
(09:14):
for whatever that whatever that travel is from this realm
into that next place, whatever it may be. There's all
kinds of intricate stuff that goes into making sure you're ready.
Rules you gotta follow, and if you don't follow those rules,
you don't get in right.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, oh, you you died successfully, but you didn't have
sky burial. My bad, So now you are the ghost
of a type predatory bird.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Well, not to mention the beliefs and you know, actions
that you participated in while you were alive. There's all
kinds of rules surrounding that. But I think in the
past we've certainly seen much more physical manifestations of those
things in terms of preparing you know, one's mortal remains
to pass on, and a lot more importance placed on that. Now. Obviously,
(10:03):
the funeral industry feels a little bit a religious to
me in some ways, even though it has a chapel
and it sort of purports to be a service or
an out crop of religion. It feels a lot more
corporatized to me, and a lot more separated from any
particular religious spiritual beliefs. It's interesting, though, maybe I'm overstating
(10:23):
the case on that line.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I don't think so. No, it's a paradigm shift right.
For most of the human's history, a great many religions
did have and will assert that some aspect of you,
the mind or the soul, persist after physical death. And
these belief systems, to that earlier point take it as
a given or dare I say an article of faith
(10:46):
that the mind soul proceeds toward other spiritual destinations based
on one's behavior in life up to and including funeral
preparation or pre death or write at dewn rituals. But
on the other hand, we have to admit atheistic groups
argue there is nothing afterward. Science has diplomatically put current science,
(11:10):
as we record on Friday, April third, twenty twenty six,
that there is no proof of consciousness persisting after the
death of the physical bodies. No ghosts, no holy spirits,
no angels, demons, reincarnation consequences zip zilch nada. It's an
old debate, and it's a debate that's going to continue
(11:32):
because when you think about it, if you're talking about humans,
there are billions of stakeholders in this argument.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
So it was no.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Surprise that a lot of people looked at the available
evidence or lack thereof, and said, you know what, I'm
going to take it on faith. I'm going to choose
to believe what I like. If it makes me a
better person in life, that is great. If it means
that I'm wrong, it doesn't matter. It is my belief.
So everyone has their own take. No one can agree
(12:03):
on what's really happening, and it's always just if you
want to play it long, get home. It's always fascinating
to respectfully ask your friends and family for their own
perspective on death, life's biggest question, and who knows, their
answers might surprise you. It's always great, especially because most
people are not super good at actively listening. So if
(12:25):
you actively listen to someone and you ask them about
something that really matters to them, their answers are going
to amaze you.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
That's why last Wills and testaments are so important. Oh
so they can just let everything you can let somebody
know without any of that, you just and it becomes
a legal document right that somebody else can execute.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Oof.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
You reminded me, I gotta get mind signed. I keep
putting that off. I did do the thing. Yeah, No,
I did the thing, and I just got to get
it notarized. No, it's a really good point. I also
just want to not walk back what I said earlier.
But I'm of course aware that there are still very
many cultures and traditions that have specificurial rights and types
of cemeteries that have certain you know, criteria for getting
(13:05):
into them. Ben, You're always talking about the you know,
remaining tattoo free and all of that.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Okay, hold on, that's that is partially a misnomer. You
can be buried in.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
Judaic for if you have Well, I'm just saying it's
I'm referencing it.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Just it's like not great. I feel like the Santa
and I think you should leave, you know what I mean.
It's like I don't have a problem with it, but
you can't get a gift that year.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
I'm just saying too as well. He's even the thing
that I was maybe mentioning regarding the corporatization and the
sort of more business side of the funeral industry. I mean,
they're also kind of try to be a one size
fits all, you know, for any culture, in any faith,
and they have all of the stuff that they need
to make sure that they can accommodate, folks. So I
wasn't intending to say that burial rituals and you know,
(13:51):
preparing the dead isn't a thing anymore. It has just
maybe become a little bit more of like a ketch all,
and it certainly isn't as desperately important and you know,
focused on as it was and say the days of
you know, entombing pharaohs.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
In the like, right, Yeah, one hundred percent, well put,
because we know that these sorts of rituals have unfortunately
become increasingly monetized or commodified in certain cultures. But we
also know this is something that so far is going
to happen to everybody. The debate upon the afterlife still
(14:27):
has not been universally concluded. But this entire debate, folks,
is on the cusp of a massive sea change. In
our twenty fourteen episode The Future of Death, which was
more than ten years ago, now, we looked at existing
technology on the horizon at that time, and we asked
whether science and medicine could Mostly we were asking whether
(14:51):
it could lead to immortality, whether tech could create real
life zombies. But if we fast forward to Friday, April third,
as we record BOYD, to see that science is coming
closer than ever right now to bringing back the dead
Kaveat asterisk, Kafiat fine print, Kafia Asterisk fine print, Kafiyah
(15:11):
astric fine print. Here's where it gets crazy. You heard
us correctly, fellow conspiracy realist bringing back the dead again asterix,
Kaveat fine print a plenty. Maybe, First, guys, we talked
about what we're not saying, Like, we're not saying anybody
(15:33):
has made a quantum powered wijaboard just yet.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
No, we're not talking about the gritty Frankenstein reboot, you know,
made real resurrection men digging up bodies, reanimating the dead.
In that respect, we're also not saying that anyone has
developed some kind of you know, steam as you put
Ben in the dock here, quantum powered steam punk Duisi
(15:57):
board that can you know, communicate beyond the ale with
the spirits of the deceased. Science, as we pointed out
just doesn't have any proof of any such spirits or
even of the existence of soul or whatever quantifiable energy
occupies our meat bodies that animates us and makes a
sense of human people. Most of that research just specifically
(16:20):
about neuro transmitters and the brain, and that's sort of
where it ends. And not to say that people aren't
trying to find those answers. So no one's really made
any sort of drug, for example, that is able to
quote unquote be a life extension technology. We know that
people have crazy regimes to you know, make themselves younger,
(16:40):
and this idea of secret life extension technology for the
ultra ultra elite has certainly been in the conversation for
a long time. But it's my understanding. Guys, correct me
if I'm wrong. We don't have any hard evidence of
that either.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Not of efficacy at least correct.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
We don't have the kill switch technology yet either. That
exists in X Files season five, episode eleven, where you
upload your consciousness into some sort of computer or like
Westworld style. Currently that's not available.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
We also know there are no strange helmets, right like
the god helmet of Hitchin's fame. There are no dimensional
portals allowing you to traverse into the afterlife. Flat Liners
is a great film. Okay, that is a hill that
we will maybe not die on, but we'll take a
shot in the butt for it. Flat Liners is a
(17:36):
phenomenal work of fiction, but it still remains a work
of fiction. However, this is why we're doing an episode
on this. Human civilization is learning and has learned a
lot about bringing people very close to death and then
bringing them back over that rubicon. A lot of this,
and I swear we talked about this previously. A lot
(17:59):
of this hinges on the extreme hibernation techniques that we
already see in some of Earth's other organisms. So in
the in the film Flatliners and countless other novels and
adaptations of novels, you will see somebody who's trying to,
as you said, Noel, do a little bit of frankensteiny stuff,
(18:19):
and they're dropping someone's temperature, they're slowing and stopping their
heart rate, and then they are bringing them back right
usually through you know, the clear electric paddles, maybe some CPR.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
Sure, or even the sci fi trope of like cryopods
or cryostasis, or being able to traverse massive distances in
space that would cause one to like age or whatever,
being able to keep them in some sort of stasis. Like,
that's not a thing we can do either. It's not
exactly the same, but it's similar.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Theoretically, right, besides exist, But it's all these pesky laws. Now,
I'm kidding, you're You're right, nol. It's a matter of
some hard technical limits that have to be traversed. We
do know, though, that some organisms can enter torper, something
very close to death, for extreme amounts of time. I
(19:11):
want to give a shout out to tartar grades aka
street name water bears or sometimes I forgot, we never
mentioned this one. Sometimes they're called mossy pigs. Not flattering.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
No, tartar grades are big. Tartar grades and Axilotel's are
big in the plushy community.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
That makes sense, okay, I mean, and tartar grades also
real life tartar grades can enter hibernation, extreme hibernation for
much longer than any human beings that we know of.
Fun fact, tartar grade torper, it has a specific word.
It's called two.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
That's fun And I mean what you're describing there, too,
is a lot like the cryostasis that I was talking about,
because we also have evidence of water bears or tartar
grades surviving in deep space with this very method more
or less right.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
One hundred percent. And at the same time that they're
in that torpor they are they are soldiering through incredibly
high exposure to radiation right other nasty stuff. So to
model oneself after the tartar grade means that you could
(20:24):
theoretically create a human who gets close to something like
death and then you know, you reheat them like microwave meal.
We also know we've talked about this extensively. We know
that scientists have thoroughly studied the phenomena that we call
nd or near death experience. Thankfully, the patients who are
(20:45):
reporting in these studies, they're not seeing the hellish haunting
landscapes from flatliners, but they do report some unusual stuff
and similar, I would say to reports of people on
DMT or certain lucinogens. It's kind of freaky how so
many people with an NDE report something similar when they
(21:08):
come back, even if they've never spoken to other NDE survivors.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
Mm HM, and shout out to our buddy Dan Bush
and his podcast series Alive Again. I'll find an episode
where we chatted with him about some of the near
death experiences that he reported on in that series. So
it's definitely a cool exploration of that kind of stuff
and super relevant to what we're talking about today.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I would just say when it comes to near death experiences,
there is such a wide range of report and experience there,
everything from nothingness to the kind of the punishment, the
great punishment, experiencing all the things that you've done but
from the perspective of the people you did them to,
to that welcoming light concept, to being on a stone
(21:51):
slab looking out at some kind of nebula where stars
are forming and life is created. There's just such I'm
ap on that show. So I'm just yeah, I don't
mean to go to too deeply, but there's such a
range of experiences that have occurred. It does make me
wonder and maybe i'm you know, quite a bit influence,
(22:12):
but it makes me pulled more into a camp of
science just doesn't understand yet what consciousness is, because we
know that's true, so there might be there's a possibility
that consciousness does extend out. It's just we don't know
how it interacts once the body has died too.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
If like these near death experiences or obviously we don't
have the reports from the people that you know went
all the way, are not akin to dreams the way
our experience dictates what our brain, what images our brain
presents us with when we're asleep. If there is a
world where as your brain is dying, it's sort of
recalling things or presenting you with something that maybe is
(22:53):
influenced by your beliefs or your experiences, this idea of
your life flashing before your eyes, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Right, I'm glad you said that. Though yet it's almost
seen and setting, is it not. You know, we do
have the science to rely upon if you go to
folks like a professor named Sam Parnia. He's an expert
in cardiac arrest survivors, and he says, you know, the
statistics again to that earlier point are kind of dodgy, right,
(23:22):
because these are self reported experiences, and you'll see a
lot of statistics that say, yes, these are varied, but
a majority or a slight majority people encounter what Parnea
calls quote a right and welcoming light, going into a
tunnel toward a beautiful place, seeing relatives welcome them, maybe
even a panoramic view of their lives. And again that's
(23:45):
not me, that is Sam Parnia, who has studied cardiac
arrest survivors in particular. And to go to stay on
the science here, what if these are not epic metaphysical
road trips. It is true to that earlier point that
humanity still cannot define nor truly understand consciousness. But what
(24:06):
if on a physical level, on a neurological level, these
are hallucinations caused by dying brains. Science has attempted to
explain at least one of the most common report of
a near death experience, which is seeing that tunnel of light.
In particular, they're saying, once your heart stops beating, right,
(24:28):
not everything stops at once. Once your heart stops beating,
your brain's visual cortex gets activated by a surge of
electrical activity, and this can continue up to thirty seconds
after an individual is dead. So the burst is thought
by a lot of the waffins to account for this
highly visual experience that people have. And then your heart restarts,
(24:52):
and then your back right, and everybody is saying, hey,
what happened, and you say it was crazy? Man, it
was a wild ride.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
The only thing that I would fight back against. I know,
there's a lot I would fight back against that a lot,
just because some people have died for minutes, for seconds,
for even longer than that. In very rare cases, people have,
you know, spent twenty minutes clinically dead or you know,
almost thirty minutes clinically dead. So it just and who's
(25:24):
to say what the subjective experience is if we're talking
about these surges of electrical activity and what that would
look like, you know, from a visual perspective inside a
body that's going through that. I like that there's science.
I just I think we're dealing in a realm here
that is a little, at least currently outside of the
scope of measurability. I think I tend to agree with
(25:47):
that as well.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Like I mean, I'm not a religious person, and I
don't really hold any particular beliefs regarding the afterlife, but
I do think that there is obviously something that's outside
of just electrical impulses and organs that inform who we
are as people, and I'm absolutely curious as to what
happens to that. I do think it is some sort
(26:08):
of harnessing of electricity and in data points and information
that coalesce into you know, a personality and a human
And I have a hard time believing that that just
disappears if we're talking about energy being able to be
not be destroyed, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
But I don't know about any of that stuff.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
But I'm with you, Matt. I think a lot of
this stuff is outside of the realm of It's again,
it's that crossover between spirituality or metaphysics and you know, physics.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
And I appreciate that point. No, you know, this is
this is the important part of human civilization. Has yet
to crack the code on bringing back anybody who has
been clinically dead past a certain amount of time. So
to that earlier comment, you know, generally spending more than
thirty minutes clinically dead and coming back without major brain
(26:54):
damage is very rare. The current world record for being
clinically dead and returning without being heavily damaged goes to
Velma Thomas. Velma Thomas in two thousand and eight was
clinically dead. Forget this, folks, seventeen hours after suffering multiple
(27:15):
cardiac arrest and another get this. While we're getting each
other she was an organ donor, so Thomas literally woke
up alive, conscious, breathing as medics were preparing to take
out her bits. Now that's nightmare fuel seventeen hours. That's
the record. Also, don't try that at home. It's weird because,
(27:39):
as I think we can all agree we're saying here,
every so often we discover another puzzle piece, another fascinating
bit of knowledge or research, forcing us to rethink existing
paradigms and assumptions, not just about the world, but about
ourselves and more importantly, about the world in which we live.
So thousands of thousands of thousands of years into the
(28:01):
game called humanity, civilization is still having to ask, you
know what if So if we were all to try
and leverage current and emergent technology, could we make a
real life Lazarus? How I think we can posit. The
two biggest paths right now are what we can call
(28:21):
replacement and recreation. Also a tricky word because I almost
said recreation, But whatever.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Are we talking about? The startup that's trying to make
brainless human clones that you can put your brain into.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Well, geez, when you put it like that, Matt, it
sounds like, yeah, that would be correct.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
That is our three bios, So to give you some
setup before to get to them. This idea of replacement
addresses what we can call the body problem, not the
three body problem, but the basic concept is if a
person is in decent cognitive shape, like their brain, their
software is fine, but their body is failing. What if
(28:57):
we could create a new body and insert that healthy
brain into that. This body could be electronic, a biomechanical hybrid,
it could be entirely organic. Talk about shades of Sci
Fi heads floating in jars, you know, giant robots steered
by a little human brain in their guts.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Are we talking about crying craying?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
My guy? Right, that's pretty far out, but we may
be closer than the public assumes. So. Just a few
days ago and a little bit longer, the news broke
about a startup company called R three bio out of Richmond, California. Now,
until MI T Technology Review did a little bit of
deep diving, R three bio was saying, we want to
(29:42):
raise money to create non sentient monkey based organ sacks.
They're phrases not ours, not mine. That's good that don't
attack me for that.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Oh yeah, just organiz I'm impressed.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, it's and their their pitches. It's an alternative to
animal testing. Right, So now we're not actually harming a
conscious sentient being. We have just grown a thing that
has a kidney that we can experiment on. But it
turns out in private, they've been pitching the idea of
creating brainless clones to serve as human backup bodies.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
Yes, indeed, a journalist Antonio Regalado describes it thusly, imagine
it like this, a baby version of yourself with only
enough of a brain structure to be alive in case
you ever need a new kidney or a liver, or
alternatively found John Skolndorn has speculated you might one day
(30:38):
get your brain placed into a younger clone. That could
be a way to gain second lifespan through a still
a hypothetical procedure known as body transplant. Guys, this is
giving blood boy the energy, but like an escalation of
that that obviously only the mega mega mega mega mega
mega rich are going to be able to mess with.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, I mean, let's say, okay, so let's take that
argument in good faith. Let's say someone has experienced catastrophic
physical trauma, maybe something fatal or an otherwise fatal cardiac arrest.
If they had this service, and this service worked and
everything went according to plan, their physical body, their body
(31:18):
prime would die while their brain was somehow preserved and
then inserted into the new largely brainless weighting body. The
person then, in a sense, would have died and been resurrected.
There's some ethical quandaries, you know, couple.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
I don't want to spoil anything, but definitely check out
Jordan Peele's get Out Do.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
It, very good banger. Check out all this stuff.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
This particular thing. Did you guys see some recent studies.
I don't know how much I wait, I would put
on them to the individual studies, but talking about cellular
consciousness as though individual cells actually store memories, and this
potential that the entire body is what becomes consciousness through
(32:10):
all the organs and through the connectivity and the electrical
and the stuff your heart does with essentially these energy fields.
It's weird. It's kind of it's kind of it seems
why I could do But it also seems almost to
make more sense to me than some of the other
biological explanations that we've had for consciousness and just neural
it's just neural connections, guys.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I mean quadum physics. It gets neurobiology gets so close
to spirituality at some point, you know, I love the
idea that ultimately, right now, so many things that are
accepted as normal sounded bonkers, right, electric lights, light after dark?
That's not based on burning animal fat. Get them out
of here. That guy's a warlock. Maybe we're in that stage.
(32:54):
We're also in the stage where some of the world's
smartest people get together and they say, I don't know
what if you know, what if it's consciousness as a
sell you know, on a cellular level.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Well, it's a fun wd if to say, what if
we could take that brain out of that dead body,
put it into a new body that has the same
blood type. Obviously, and now they've just got a we
got a crane on our hands, except it's up here
instead of down there in the tummy. But how do
you get past the whole brain damage of it? All? This?
You know, once you would have to get somebody into surgery,
(33:27):
real quick.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Tight time window. Yeah, just like flatliners. But we have
a couple of yeah, ethic quandary, ethical quandaries aside, we
have a couple of hard operational badgers and rub a
CODs to traverse artificial wounds do not yet exist, so
brainless bodies cannot be grown in a lab. That means
(33:50):
that the first batch of these brainless clones would have
to be carried by human women paid to do the job.
In the future, however, you could place that first wave
by making one brainless clone that can give birth to another.
Nothing evil or ghoulish about that.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Oh wait, wait wait, didn't we just talk about an
artificial womb on Strange News a little while back. The
company that's that's their goal is to produce artificial wounds.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
It's their goal, but they haven't attained it yet. Okay, yeah,
And like, secondly to your point, once we're over the
habeas corpus badger, right, once we have the replacement body,
how do we connect the brain. This is one of
the trickiest things again, ethics Asi. Right now, brains cannot
be reattached to the spinal cord after an injury. That's
(34:43):
because the central nervous system itself has an extremely limited
ability to self repair. Right. That's why some of the
most wealthy people are powerful people. You could imagine when
they encounter paralytic injury to their spinal cord like Christopher
(35:03):
Reeves would be an example. There is no medicine yet
that can repair that. So how would we be able to,
like what kind of mechanism or improvement would need to
be extant or in play for us to take a
brain out in that tight time window you just described
and then plug it in, you know. Shout out to
(35:24):
anybody who's done cable management in the past, any it
folks who had to run a surfer and figure out
where all the wires go. This is that times like
a million, if not a billion. We can't do it yet.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Quick shout out to the artificial womb thing. I remembered
this from a Guardian article. There's there's a website called
aqua womb dot eu where you can check out the
perhaps the closest that we have right now to this
thing that looks like an artificial womb where a like
a baby could grow and gestate very simpimilarly to being
(36:01):
in a woman's womb.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, and hopefully that will be on the way because
it is. It is potentially life saving technology, but it's
still technology, which means it can be used for good
or for real technology is not inherently moralistic if we Okay,
so let's say the artificial womb thing works out, right,
Let's say the brainless clone quote unquote is created, and
(36:26):
let's say there's a way to we figure out some
interface where you can hook up a brain to a
new body the same way you would put it an
old school Nintendo cartridge. Right, Maybe you just blow at
the end of it if it doesn't connect first, and
then you pop it back in. I am dating myself.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That's a really interesting idea. If you could connect it
to a device so it's not physically connected to whatever
the body is. That feels like you're getting more into
the robotics version of this.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
That'd be the biomechanical hybrid for sure. And like, the
only way you could tell if someone came back from
the dead was they would have a little ring of
metal around their net. I'm not going to do it.
I'm not gonna show you, guys, not this episode. But
so even after we solve for those two hard operational issues, guys,
(37:16):
this is a legal ethical disaster. It is. It would
be unprecedented in all of human history. Is the new
You still legally you your fingerprints, right, your face, your retina,
they will all be different. Do you still have the
same assets? Do you still have to pay your carn
and your student loan? Do you have the same Social
(37:37):
Security number? Are you like legally divorced? Are you still marry?
I think if history is any indicator, humanity is going
to wrestle with this or try to legislate this technology
only in reaction to it, which means a beat me here,
Dylan and Jordan. A ton of people are going to
suffer in the process, especially the early adopters. I don't
(38:02):
know that's up. There were brain implants. Would you guys
do it? Would you guys try it?
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Those early adopters are going to pay a craft ton
of money to be a part of it into some early.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Adoption though, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
And also you know, early adopters typically get like they're
the guinea pigs. They're paying out of the nose to
be the guinea pigs for the thing.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
But they'll get their name on that brick.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
You also get your name in the history book. You
just don't know how right, You don't know if you're
a footnote or a chapter. And that happens to a
lot of people.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I helped make this ballroom. I mean this, what are
we talking about.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
General Vaughan on Sandwich, the fourteenth of the third died
in the world's first marginally successful brain replacement transplant therapy.
His final words were, man, man you So maybe there's
another way to bring back the dead them. We outlined
(38:58):
two paths. This is the first one, right replacement of
some sort at base, this text idea is arguably a
little less coolish. I would say it's a different kind
of ghoulish, but it still carries a huge wave of
ethical dilemmas in its wake. Let's call this one resurrection
by recreation. Ooh, let's take a break. We'll be right back. Recreation, Dylan,
(39:28):
if you will some cinematic music, picture your brain. If
you have an MRI scan lying around, now's the time
to pick that bad oy up. Play a long guit home.
Look at it. Your brain is astonishing, Just like a
snowflake or a fingerprint. It is inherently unique. It is
the engine power in all of human civilization, and humans
(39:51):
still don't fully understand how it works. End scene.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
I mean, who I really thought you said recreation and
I was getting all excited.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
I was like, are we going to the park, throw
the frisbee of the mind, I mean, without soapboxing, guys.
I think it's best for all of us to think
of our minds or souls, whatever you want to call them,
less like an entity, less like a distinct dot in
the landscape of reality, and more like a pattern. More
(40:22):
poetically put, a song that sings itself. The billions of
blips and electrical and chemical activity that occur at every
second of your lived existence in your brain cumulate to
create a byzantine series of circuits and functions, memories, emotions, imaginings.
That is, all of those things, they're the notes in
(40:44):
the song that is you. So what if we can
map all of that out? What if we could recreate
it flawlessly and an emulation with such very similitude that
it is inseparable or in disinguishable from the original. It'd
be a cover band right of your soul.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, but you could make you if you could somehow
digitize it right, you could make as many copies as
you want. You could make like cortical stacks and put
them in the necks of folks, you know, and then
you could alter that carbon shout out.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I thought that was very well done. You could also
make some little tweaks, right if you're a capitalist endeavor.
Just last year, Google and Harvard announced the most detailed
map of the human brain so far. This is not
the same thing as mapping an entire human personality via
brain activity. Similar to a map of Iran that just
(41:45):
has topography in cities and maybe hidden missile bases. That's
not going to be the map that captures the names, relationships,
and goals of the people who actually live in Iran.
So we don't have a full full map out yet,
but it is theoretically possible. It is theoretically possible to
map out all the activities of a human brain. It
(42:05):
is theoretically possible to recreate that entire pattern on a
different medium. To wit, it is theoretically possible to create
a copy of your soul on a circuit board. I
don't know, man, I don't know if I love it.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
It just gets back to that dang problem. We just
don't fully know how these systems work together to make
you you and play that lovely song. And we just
don't know.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah, like, do we have to attach the gut biome
as well as another factor of variables that influences personality
and behavior.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
It very likely might be a huge part of how
the signals actually get to you and all of those
receptors that we're talking about. We always think it's all
up in the head part, but man, there is other stuff.
We know that that biome can make you feel certain
ways and even act differently.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
What was it was a stick you said, if you
eat wrong, you think wrong. That was another guy he
must end, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
I know that's true. Who ever said it? Truth?
Speaker 2 (43:08):
I mean, if we could figure this out, we being civilization,
not your humble and hopefully favorite host, If we could
figure this out. From that point, it becomes relatively trivial
to create a means of communication from that circuit board
or that other medium to the outside world. That becomes
a new ship of thesis. This copy would be a
(43:29):
recreation of your brain activity in all respects. It would
theoretically function a lot like you. But would it be you?
What happens if someone gets the first comprehensive reproduction without dying,
they speak directly to it. Would you prime and you
two point zero get along? What would you guys talk about?
(43:49):
I mean, we're not there yet, but this is one
of those Atopica bases. This is like a mind breaker
kind of thing. I stay up too much thinking about
that one.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Me and my other cortical stack would just talk about
Jerry Seinfeld and.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
And what's the deal with cortical stacks.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
In the Epstein files?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
What's the deal with Jeffrey? I think you guys have
a great conversation. I mean, we're not there yet in
twenty twenty six, but we are way closer than at
any point known history. Make no mistake, this is on
the way, fellow conspiracy realist, humanity is yet to create
a one hundred percent accurate functional representation of a single
(44:35):
human mind. But we have to remember science is a
battle of increments more often than it is a battle
of huge cinematic revelations. So we are getting closer and
closer to the goal. It weighs that terrify a lot
of observers, and you don't have to wait for one
hundred percent ship of thesis emulated human to emerge just yet.
The short term is arguably even a little bit scarier.
(44:59):
Can we talk about death bots? Those are like the
proto types.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Is this the thing where we're talking about scanning all
of the online presence from someone and theoretically making using
an LLM to recreate someone's preferences, maybe sarcasm levels, what
else their.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Speech cadence, especially if you have audio, their reread elections, values, opinions,
interaction statements.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
This is even making a virtual version, right, like virtually
represented physical version.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, and then put your dead mom in a rumba.
See how that works? Yeah? But yeah, the short term
nailed it. There is for now powered by big data.
If you're like a lot of people these days, to
that earlier point, you have some sort of social media presence,
you have some sort of handle and Gretel level breadcrumbs
of online activity. You have a footprint to fingerprint. So
(45:57):
the more online you are, and the more well docked
imented your thoughts and activities are, the closer the boffins
can get to making an imperfect emulation of you. Street
name deathbots. They're designed to simulate voices, interaction patterns, personalities
of the deceased. So everything you can feed into this
(46:17):
combine harvester voice recordings, text messages, email, social media posts. Right,
what are they like and dislike? What do they love?
What made them toss? The anger emoji? Or you know,
like a sunglasses emoji. It things you can create interactive
avatars that appear to speak from beyond the grave, not
(46:38):
white bring him back the dead. But a lot of
people refer to this as technology of illusion.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
Who guys, I cannot remember. A while back at in
the House Stuff Works Days, we were talking about a
scientist that created a robot head. It's like the head
in just the upper torso here, and it was modeled
after his spouse. I believe that's right. Oh, it was
an attempt early on to do this very thing we're
(47:05):
talking about to rebuild espouse's I guess personality as this
physical thing he could talk to and interact with. I
cannot remember for the life of me the name of
the person. It's not Paul Ekman, No, no Hanson? No
(47:26):
is it David Hanson? Do you remember?
Speaker 4 (47:28):
Can you?
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Can you guys picture this in your head?
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yah? Yeah, no, No, I know exactly. I mean, even
in this head, I know exactly the one you're talking about.
I just it's on the tip of my tongue. Please
let us know, because that was again to that point
that that is a study of science as a battle
of incremental wins, right, but it's it's still it's it's
pretty creepy, you know. They're also following up on that.
(47:53):
I love this point because there are years of research
going into this. There are right now as we record
on April twenty six, there are multiple organizations doing this stuff,
doing it as a business. If you go to The
Conversation in November twenty twenty five, you'll see an excellent
piece by the experts Eva Nietto, McVoy and Jenny Kidd,
(48:16):
who are experimenting with these services as part of something
called Synthetic Past. Synthetic Past explores the impact technology as
on the preservation of personal and collective memory, and guys,
they describe everything they did as fascinating and unsettling. Maybe
(48:36):
we can go to a direct quote on how they
describe these systems.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Just before we jump into that. Guys, I'm trying to
use Google right here to use keywords to find the
dang thing that I can see in my head. I
remember it, and it just doesn't seem to exist. I'm
doing all kinds of the you know, the super searcher tricks,
using quotations and minuses and all the other stuff. I
swear it. It just does not function anymore. Okay, that's it.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
Oh dear wow, good thing, we got some info right
in front of us. Google Free. So they describe their
discoveries as quote both fascinating and unsettling, which I think
we can all concur with saying that some quote systems
focus on preserving memory. They help users record and store
personal stories organized by themes convenient, such as childhood, family
(49:28):
or advice for loved ones. These agents then index the
contents and guide people through it like a searchable archive.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yeah, and other companies are going to use what they
call generative AI to make and participate in ongoing dialogue,
ongoing conversations. So you could upload, for example, all the
data you have from this once living person. From there,
the system creates a chatbot that not only responds in
the dead individual's tone and stuff, but further leverages machine
(50:02):
learning to evolve and refine itself over time. Recently, in
an episode of Sauce on the Side, we talked about
this as a technique that could possibly fix the time
window biological limits of replacement technology, because in theory, you
just need the right system and as much data as possible.
You don't actually need the brain. You don't have to
(50:25):
have the happiest corpus moment. In fact, you could go
through history and find anybody who is extremely well documented
and I think we're talking about Kissinger with Gandhi, Yeah,
Henry Kissinger. You could take everything we know about that
guy and all the audio video clips, and you use
that existing data to create what we would call Kissinger
(50:46):
from beyond the Grave. And if you had the right
amount of programming finesse, old KFBTG wouldn't just be regaling
us with his previous war crimes. You could feed this
thing new information about current events, and the way it
would react would be very similar to the way Kissinger
Prime would react if the old villain was still cooking well.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
And this is another example of technology outpacing legislation and
the idea of personhood and such like. If we were
at a situation where we had robust enough facsimiles of
people from the past that were then used in some
sort of consulting capacity, actually, you know, participating in making
(51:29):
decisions of a great magnitude that affect human beings. I
just feel like that's something that the.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Law would want to weigh in on.
Speaker 4 (51:37):
But as we know these days, the deal is just
kind of you know, asking for forgiveness, not even asking
for forgiveness, just doing the thing and then waiting to
get sued and then seeing what happens later.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
You know, first we asked for funding, and we ask
for forgiveness.
Speaker 4 (51:53):
If we ever asked for forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Shout out to R three. Yeah, I mean this is
happening now. There's a great article as we make the
Rounds artificially alive at exploration of AI resurrections and spectral
labor modes in a post mortal society. This is a banger.
Read it if you get a chance. They're looking at
more than fifty real world cases from across the planet
(52:15):
where these and similar technologies are used to recreate the voices, faces,
and personalities of dead human beings. It's astonishing, it's terrifying.
Remember how we said this scenario has its own ethical
tsunamis on the way. Imagine how this could impact grieving
loved ones. How many of us are really emotionally prepared
(52:37):
to speak with our dead mothers or dead fathers when
doing so help or hinder your grieving process? I mean,
Jesus Hubert Christ, what would you do if you booted
up the program for the first time, and your mom's
first words were, I begged you not to bring me back.
Speaker 4 (52:56):
Yeah, they're just like kill me. Like that's another sci
fi t But we talked about that with Gandhi as well,
the idea of how she kind of started goofing around
with a video generation software to kind of see how
someone made a video that sort of punked her and
made her look like she was like making out with
somebody at a party, and then before she knew it,
she was on that slippery slope of bringing back her
(53:17):
her deceased you know, the love of her life, ex boyfriend,
ex partner, And what a quick walk that was, and
how she immediately saw the temptation of it, and saw
the intoxication of it and what a dangerous thing it
could be and backed the frick away from it.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
I know myself enough to know that I would find
a way to pay an exorbitant amount of money to
be able to have philosophical discussions with my grandfather again.
But if it was through a service like this, and
I knew that it was just a representation, a phony
version of him, I would not pay that money, right
(53:55):
because ultimately, you want to have discussions. You know, somebody
like my grandfather who was really interested in more in
his own mortality and what comes next and all the
things we're talking about today, then talking to some generated
version that's just going to pull from the Internet ideas about,
you know, potentially what he's experiencing in the FROA. It
would just be this thing that's meant to make you
feel a way, kind of the way lllms do all
(54:18):
across the board.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
Right, that's a great idea. No, I'm kidding, It is
actually a great observation. It is because you know, there's
the question of consent, right, there's the question of respect.
Is this disrespectful to the people who actually lived? Did
they consent to have some toy built to look like
(54:41):
them dance around when they wanted to be gone? And
we also know there's the potential for AI psychosis check
out our episode on that. There's also the ever present
potential for anything called AI to hallucinate. And don't even
get us started on that Black Mirror episode about ads
driven resurrection.
Speaker 4 (55:00):
Well, there was another Black Mirror episode where a woman's
husband died in a car accident and she used the
service to basically bring back you know, using collating all
of his information from online, from the Internet, scraping of
social media, all of that stuff, and then implanting all
of that into a body played by oh gosh, Damal
(55:22):
dummal Gleason. It was and it's one of those things
where I picture the trope from science fiction and horror
where it's like, that's not your mother, that's you know
what I mean, Like you're talking to this thing, but
that's not that's not your father, that's not your brother,
and that's not your exactly.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
Oh, good luck, half fun, don't die. I can't recommend
it enough.
Speaker 2 (55:42):
Go see it now. I enjoyed it. It's it's it's
worth your time. It's streaming now as well. Uh. The
the third issue here is what about the legal implications
is bringing back you know, if I bring back my
dead biological mother, does that mean she has all her
sets intact.
Speaker 4 (56:01):
Saying with personhood Just the idea of there's so many
things that it'll take the laws so long to even
wrap its head around.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
You know. Yeah, does Kissinger from Beyond the Grave have
to stand trial for previous war rhymes? Or can or
can k be KFBTG just say ah, I'm Kissinger two
point zero can't get me of too slick.
Speaker 4 (56:22):
How does it likely that I think the argument would
be made that it's more likely that because it's I
don't think that anyone would reasonably say it is him.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
It's just as united. Right, Well, that's right. Personhood for convenience.
Speaker 4 (56:35):
One hundred percent. I'm just saying, given the inconvenience of
such a claim, and also the factor is just kind
of indicating, no, this isn't him. This is just the
closest thing we can do by scraping all this information
from history. And how is that any different than just,
you know, researching the person and making decisions based on
what the research says they would have done. It's just
like that.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
It's just like that. Their argument is that it's different.
But to that point, noel uh Is it similar to
that pope who dug up the corpse of another pope
and put the corpse on trium and it share up? Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (57:07):
What if Kissinger came back and said, you know, we're
not supposed to be seduced that way, right, But I am.
When someone's nice to me, I love that person, even
if they're bad people. I couldn't care less I'll fight
to the end for them.
Speaker 4 (57:20):
Where are you reading this from You're scaring me? What?
Speaker 3 (57:24):
Yeah, well that's a little easter egg Okay, cool? Cool?
Speaker 4 (57:27):
Well happy Easter at there?
Speaker 2 (57:29):
Ah, Yes, happy Easter. Chegged so much to anybody celebrating
passover as we're recording, there's so much more to get
to here. It's frankly impossible for us to do it now, folks,
because the story has yet to be written. Make no mistake,
and less civilization as you know it falls. This stuff
is on the way. Here's where we leave it for now.
(57:50):
Humanity has no idea what the great majority would think
of this. By the great majority, I mean the dead,
if the mind soul persist after the body fails. It's
doubtless that billions of people from the past would like
to come back. They've got some stuff to say, you
know what I mean. They want to finish their Type
five or they're Type fifteen. But it's also doubtless that
(58:11):
billions of people would prefer not to return, And we
can't really figure out those preferences without a chance to
speak with them and get their consent or lack thereof directly.
So at the time of this recording, again Friday, April third,
twenty twenty six. No spirit of a deceased person has
reached out to either this show or the living world
(58:32):
at large to comment. And perhaps that is because they
don't exist until we create them, or maybe they're out
there somewhere and they harbor something they don't want us
to know.
Speaker 3 (58:43):
What if we could bring people back and then black
mirror style put them in a white bear scenario and
punish them for forevermore.
Speaker 4 (58:54):
Oh, guys, speaking of that, that's a really interesting point, Matt.
There's a film that I just heard about as like
an indie that's probably going to be available streaming soon
called Redus Reducts, where it's about a woman who can
travel through time in order to kill over and over
again a person who has wronged her in a horrific way,
and what that would feel like, and what that would
do to a person in terms of the addiction of it,
(59:17):
the intoxication of it, How would you do it when
presented with that opportunity. It sounds fascinating and the big
picture folks talked about it and said it felt kind
of like seeing early you know, Jim Cameron movie and
seeing the promise of what that you know talent was
gonna become so I'm really excited to check out redus
reducts Okay, check out also Mauer mctargets secret mutant power
(59:42):
from the X Men universe.
Speaker 2 (59:43):
I'm not going to spoil anymore. She's most famously known
as the lover of Professor X and this has been
the stuff they don't want you to know. Thank you
so much for joining us. We cannot wait to hear
from you as we continue more episodes. You can be
part of of our weekly listener mail segment. We're going
to be bringing you weekly strange news every Monday on
(01:00:06):
your podcast platform of choice. You can always find us
on Netflix for our episodes, and you can always reach
out to us directly. Either find us on the lines
should thou sip the social meds, you can call us
on a phone directly. You can always send us an email.
Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
If you were to seek us out on the lines,
you could do so by entering in Conspiracy Stuff or
Conspiracy Stuff Show. You'll figure out where to go from there.
Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
We have a phone number. Why don't you call it?
It's one eight three three STDWYTK. It's a voicemail system.
You get three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname, and
let us know if we can use your name and
message on one of our listener mail episodes that show
up in the audio version of this show. Look for
it wherever you get your favorite podcasts. If you want
to send us an email, you can do that too.
Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
We are Oh, this is one of the best ways
to contact us. We are the entities that read each
piece of correspondence we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid.
Sometimes the void writes back. Send us a random fact
and we will send one in return. Let us know
if you want to be on a weekly listener mail segment.
Let us know if you have an inspiration for an
(01:01:11):
episode that your fellow conspiracy realist will enjoy. We'll see
you out here in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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