June 10, 2026 • 66 mins
Math is probably the closest thing humans have to a universal language. Through understanding numbers and their relationships, humanity has been able to learn endless truths about reality -- and these investigations continue today. But what if there's something more to numbers? Could certain digits possess strange vibrations, occult insights or predictive powers? In tonight's episode, Ben, Matt and Noel dive deep into the puzzling, ancient belief systems collectively known as numerology.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Today's lucky number is eighteen. My name is Matt, my
name is Nol.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
They call me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. Now before we continue,
fellow conspiracy realist, please go to conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot
com and let us know your favorite number if you
(00:53):
have one. Do you guys have a favorite number? Lucky number?
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Sleven?
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Sleven? Yes, it's up there with a let.
Speaker 5 (01:01):
Three.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yes. Yeah, No, I was just I want to hear yours.
But I was just saying off mic that I think
I have a condition known as discalculia.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
The numerical version of dislikes.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Yeah, I just I have number blindness. Frankly, so whenever
there's that thing other than like really ones that have
been hammered into my skull like blink one eighty two,
I can very rarely remember a number associated with like
a title or a thing. I do have all of
the hallmarks of this, and then I'm a pretty decent
verbal communicator, okay, problem solving, more into the arts and
(01:34):
music and stuff like that, but never been good at math.
Got nearly a perfect verbal score on the SAT and
really flunk the math section.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah, and this is this reminds me again because we
were talking off Mike. I think we all have a
little bit of those crossed wires in our right urns.
If you asked me when JFK was assassinated in the
United States, I would say, of course, November twenty second,
nineteen sixty three. But if you ask me the name
of one of my favorite Stephen King books, I would
(02:04):
say the title is just numbers.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Because it's a date in shorthand right like with slashes
and stuff, if I'm not saying. And also, apparently another
hallmark of this condition is the tendency to transposed.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Numbers reverse numbers.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
But weirdly, I remember my childhood phone number still to
this day because that's just what do you call it,
a formative A core memory, I guess, So it's weird.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
What about you, Matt, you Mett?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, the primary number I think about if I imagine one
that has a lot of significance in my life would
be twenty three. Okay, for reasons we will not be discussing.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
But no, I don''t allow it to tell us more.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
You gotta let people be, you gotta let people at that.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I know it's true it's twenty three. Isn't twenty three
as a symbolic number?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
Though? Or I might.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
See I'm doing it again. I think I'm thinking of
twenty seven, twenty one. What's your thirty?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
There's an enigma associated with twenty.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Two, yes, yeah, and forty two for all the Douglas
Adams fans, and I think that's the one the meaning
of life. I have a personal relationship with some weird numbers.
Maybe we'll get into that later, but folks, we want
to hear from you. Most importantly, this is a weird one, okay,
and hopefully it's a fun one. We are recording this
(03:20):
Britney fans of numerology on Monday, June first, twenty twenty six.
You've probably heard about some version of numerology before, even
if the name wasn't deployed, you probably have dabbled with
it to some degree in your own life.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Well, we've talked to it's come up a few times
recently the Seminal Art House picture Pie early Darren Aronofski
film about Kabbala and you know, tracing the many, many,
many many decimal places of Pie and that representing some
sort of cosmic truth and or terror.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, we made a video on this way back on
yes in the day. I couldn't even speak there. We
did it a long time ago and if you go
to the Old House Stuff Works YouTube channel you can
find it posted fourteen years ago.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Little known fact Matt Frederick did not learn to speak
until doing this.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Podcast today this morning. Yeah, oh what I'm teleported.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
We were different places telepop to Virgin Voyages.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
With us, Yes, October second through the seventh. We are
joining our some of our best friends in podcasting on
the high Seas and we want you to come to
so much so that we jumped through living your time
to put this message in the show.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Yeah, and it's starting in the Big Apple, New York
City to Bermuda. And it's also we'll be getting back
right around the time of Comic Con, so you can
make you know, double up, go see some nerd stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That's right, But Hey, while you're on the cruise with us,
because you should go on the cruise with us. We
can literally just hang on the ship where we can
get off in Bermuda and do something cool that we
don't even know about yet that we're excited to do
with you.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Excursions. What are the dates again, guys?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
October two through the seventh, So do join. Please remember
that tickets and bookings are selling out quickly.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Have heard that it is a fact?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah, so check out our live show there and for now,
check out the show already in progress.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Oh no, we're going back in Who's.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
The following up on our recent investigation of the tarot,
We are finally diving into this related form of divination,
which is often seen as more scientific than taro or
other forms of divination by its practitioners. What is numerology?
How does it work? How does it not work? Why
do some people even today remain concerned about possible occultic connections?
(05:57):
Let's get into it. Three two one, twenty three forty two. Skidoo,
there we go. Here are the facts. Okay. At its
most basic, numerology is not one thing. It is a
group term describing various ways of encountering or using numbers
(06:23):
to interpret a person's character, or to divine hidden truths
about the past, present, and future. And what's interesting here
is that it inherently assumes, no matter what version of
it you're practicing, it inherently assumes that all numbers have
an energy, a vibration, and occult hidden meaning beyond your
(06:46):
typical secular arithmetic. We can agree on that, oh for sure.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
I'm sorry, Matt. It's so interesting though, because like numbers
are clearly kind of a form of technology, sort of
an invention used to describe phenomenon that predates, right, But
then they ultimately when you really drill down into them,
especially with like the genius thinkers, like the thagorists and
all the folks that really innovated in mathematics, you really
do start to see these fundamental truths emerging. So I
(07:13):
understand that kind of thinking about how these are in
some way representative of like these building blocks in and
of themselves and could potentially hold some sort of predictive
mystical power.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I get it, I do. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I was just going to say, along with that meaning
and everything, there is power because of the meaning.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
It's interesting how reciprocal. It ends up becoming the concept
of interchanging words and numbers and phrases, names, everything into
something that represents the absolute basis of creation. If you
think all the way down to protons and neutrons and
(07:52):
how many there are of those things, and then you
go even deeper right, and then if you go even
further out as above so below kind of stuff, the
number remains largely the same like any no matter what number,
no matter what language anyone ever speaks, right, the number
kind of remains the same, well number there.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
It's not like there's like, you know, different Like there's
definously different languages and different pronunciations of numbers, but the
basis of mathematics is like universal.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, there's so many different types of spiritual belief systems
that could be called numerology today, or they include facets
of the larger concept of numerology we're talking about like
the Kabbalah, we're talking about Childean, Tamil and of course Pythagorean.
The if you if you look at the trace of
(08:45):
like if we did forensic numerology, we would see it's
been with civilization since humans began human y, you know,
the Babylonians, the Egyptians were doing it. Numbers then were
not understood as mere quantities. They were understood as symbols,
imbued or dare I say, imbrowed with symbolic significance. So
(09:07):
that's why if you're taking a fun numerology quiz on
the internet today, what you're going to probably be practicing
is descended from Pythagoras. A lot of numerologists will credit Pythagoras,
a Greek philosopher of old, as the founder of numerology.
(09:27):
This is largely true for the Western system, but those
other systems, to be fair, were created more or less independently,
and we got to be honest. Pythagorasts, you know, kind
of started a cult, very good at math. Apparently his followers,
the Pythagoreans, studied stuff that so many of us are
(09:48):
in love with, philosophy, math, music, and they did have
several fundamental discoveries that remain crucial to human civilization today,
like the in theorem. We all remember that one, right.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Right, that's the one about triangles.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Right, that's the one about triangle. The square of the
length of the hypot news is equal to the sum
of the squares of the two other sides right right,
shout out to it's a joke about a joke, a joke.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
About a joke about a joke. It's very mad. I
think it's appropriate to repeat in this in this context.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Dude pretended to be a dude disguised as another dude.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Just rewatch. Tropic thunder man holds up A two plus
B two equals C two. Uh. This is also a
It plays a huge role in some sci fi stuff
we can get to later. They also this will be
of interest of my colleagues here. They also are reported
to be the first Western investigators who discovered the beautiful
(10:54):
mathematical proportions in musical harmonies.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I mean, I guess that's the way that I can
kind of see myself to organically participate in math without
actually knowing the math of it all. There's a lot
of math that goes into a lot of what I
do with synthesizers and composition, but I couldn't exactly explain
it to you in mathematical terms, But intuitively I am
kind of participating that just by messing with intervals and relationships,
(11:21):
you know, between frequencies and all of that. And you
can do that that's a beautiful thing about music without
having to drill down into the nuts and bolts. But
it's all there, but just below the surface. And there's
also different kinds of scales. You've got Western scales that
have certain intervals and relationships, You've got Eastern scales that
are different, and all of that stuff involves the relationship
(11:41):
between notes and intervals. And then you've got like atonal
scales that are even more complex mathematically because they don't
have hard intervals. So it's really fascinating stuff, and it
is a way that even the mathematically dyslexic among us
can kind of intuitively participate in these like really fascinating
building blocks.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
And of course we have the other big discovery, at
least in the West, attributed to the Pythagorean cult, which
is the first irrational number, the square root of two
aka street game Pythagoras is constant irrational numbers. We can't
get into it. I don't think we're qualified, but they
(12:22):
are a phenomenal entry point into exactly why humanity remains
so fascinated with numbers and math in general, because going
back to an earlier point, math is at heart an independent,
constant language. It can function as a common tongue between
otherwise mutually incomprehensible cultures. This is why quite some time ago,
(12:47):
some very smart humans decided that math is probably the
most realistic avenue for communication with intelligent non human civilizations.
If you can figure out how to communicate, you know,
nine plus nine is eighteen or two plus two is four,
then you and an alien civilization might have a lingual fronka.
(13:10):
Amazing stuff, Isn't it weird?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
How there are sometimes in history where folks don't agree
on what one is sure how much just one.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Is, or the discovery of zero, or whether we go
base eight or base ten.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Well, yeah, not even to mention negative numbers. That's a
whole other thing. And I always confuse it negative numbers
with irrational numbers. They're not the same. Irrational numbers are
just numbers that can't be expressed. They are real numbers.
They can't be expressed like using an integer. But to me,
like negative numbers are kind of theoretical because you can't
have less than a thing if we're talking about quantifiable
(13:50):
elements of using numbers as representations of things.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Right, Maybe it's because of the limitations of English, but
I feel like we're being unfair and gas lighting certain
numbers by calling them irrational. You know what I mean.
They have just who they are.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
They have their own logic to them. Yes, well they're
they're highly logical.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
It's all logic.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Really.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I've got all these images of Terrence Howard in my head.
Did you guys see.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Those videos of him Terry out? Yes, Yeah, I've seen
the interviews. I've I've read some interviews. Uh, he's got
a he's got a lot of charts you can look
up as well as three D models.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I would say, you know, no matter how you feel
about it or what you think about it, especially if
you look down upon it, I would just say it
is quite fascinating, if that makes sense. If you let
your mind kind of go with it for a moment,
you're like, oh, what is going on over here? And
you can see why when folks over all of these centuries,
(14:52):
these you know, thousands of years where humans have been
playing with numbers and words and like making them make
codes in ways, you can see the intrigue that if
you're someone let's say, like Pythagoras, standing up higher than
the other folks around you and explaining how all of
these words and phrases have numerical meaning, and that meaning
(15:13):
is hidden and secret and all this stuff. You can
see how you could get taken in, perhaps at least
I can simply by watching some of the things that
Terrence Howard spoken about.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Well, and I just want to walk back with something
I said too, like negative numbers are real numbers, and
they're describing a relationship like it's like, it's all about
what you said the earlier ban about what we agree
is that baseline. Negative numbers just everything to the left
of that baseline. And they while they don't describe a
thing that is it exists in my hand, they describe
a lack of a thing right or like a deficit right,
(15:45):
like a debt of some kind, which is a theoretical
thing again kind of based on what we agree stuff is.
So there's so many interesting caveats when it comes to numbers,
but then they also don't lie in theory.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
There's also a very real world impact of negative numbers
for anybody who's had a really nasty meeting about quarterly
returns and profit predictions. Unrelated with a shout out to
our fearless leader, Bob Pittman, math and magic have always
been closely intertwined in virtually every single human culture. It
(16:23):
makes so much sense logically if we exercise empathy. Early
humans probably knew how to count and render certain calculations
of the seasons, the heavens, and the harvest before the
advent of the written word. But the invention, or if
you want, the discovery of literacy, led to a revelation
(16:43):
in mathematics as well. It's the related distinct invention of numeracy.
The ability to not just competently understand numbers and their relationship,
which we will call math, but the ability to communicate that,
to write it down, to speak it, to contact someone
(17:04):
that had nothing in common with you, have them tackle
the same equation, and they would have provable, reproducible results.
I think about it this way, guys. So you go
around the world, right, Let's say you're a polyglot who
can speak five languages. You know that every language has
thousands of words for emotions, some of which don't directly
(17:28):
translate to other cultures. These cultures will independently invent language.
There is no universal non mathematical language, but math is
the best way to communicate. No human culture is going
to tell you certain numbers like forty two or eleven,
(17:49):
or two or nine or a million. They're not going
to tell you that those numbers don't exist. The difference
is the symbolic meaning assigned to those numbers in a
giving culture usually draws from the previous belief systems of
that culture. For example, you might go to I think
(18:10):
some of us are going to East Asian Sphere later
this year, and there you shouldn't be surprised when you
hop into an elevator and there's no number four on
the elevator, maybe not at number fourteen if you're in China.
This is because four, when it's pronounced is si. It
means the number four, but it's also one tone off
(18:34):
from the Chinese word si, which means death, so they
don't want a death button on the elevator.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
And of course here, for other reasons, we don't have
a thirteenth floor, or at least a historical building. I
guess that are built within a certain range because of
negative associations with the number thirteen.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Check out our Ridiculous History episode for more on the
why the West is so sketchy about the number thirteen.
You're absolutely right, I'd love to see an elevator, you guys,
where they refuse to acknowledge all the culturally unlucky numbers.
I wonder how many buttons you can actually push.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
It really makes you feel bad for fourteen. Yeah, fourteen
is just pretending to be fourteen. And wait, and all
of them above that are also they're just pretenders.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Right right in the Western system. But also fourteen doesn't
even get acknowledgment in some Asian elevators because it's it's
like one death.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
But isn't that funny?
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Though?
Speaker 4 (19:31):
It's another example of omission where it's like, then does
the baseline reset, Like are we just omitting a number
or a floor and then the thing above that? Like
it would honestly be not in the best interest to
the superstition to say, well, now this floor is thirteen. No,
that's not true. This floor is fourteen exactly. Thirteen doesn't
exist in this condition. Right under these conditions.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
We've further complicated it in a lot of I didn't
know if we'd get in an elevator hierarchy year, but
we've already iplicated it in a lot of big cities
across the planet where the first floor is also not
really the first floor. You know what I mean. You know,
so we're in the negative, right, it's G two P
(20:15):
two marking. We've been counting wrong the whole way. Don't
trust skyscrapers, is what we're saying here, folks. That's the
main takeaway.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
It's a really concrete example of how willing we are
to trick ourselves for some positive theoretical outcome.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Right, and for a feeling of understanding, right, for a
semblance of order, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Well, yeah, and just somehow pretending like something isn't what
it actually is so that we'll feel a little better
about it.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
The nature of superstition, hmm. Yeah. And it's also it's
also an argument that reality is determined within the internal mind.
You know. It's a very Descartes or it's a sith
Lord version of Descartes. I think therefore I am. Instead
it's saying, I think therefore all this stuff is well.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
And if I'm not mistaken, it was Descartes or one
of his you know, kind of contemporaries who had this
whole idea of like Mount Monomes or or just like
what are the things that we're actually seeing and experiencing?
Are they made up of little organic, you know, pixels basically,
and that it's all kind of a construct like this
(21:34):
table isn't really this table. It's just sort of like
a representation in the way we experience it. It's enough to
really crack your head open if if you're if you're
not careful, for sure.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, this is all these reasons we're outlining here, folks,
are uh, our part and parcel of why numerology, whatever
you want to call it, whatever system you're practicing, remains
a subject of continual fascination for humans, just like taro,
but with an extra dollar of what appears to be
(22:05):
science via mathematics. We have to ask does it really work?
And if so, should you try this at home? We're
gonna argue yes, and we're going to wonder how after
a word from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy,
(22:26):
all right, Yes, rip the band aid off, rip the
numbers off. Yes, numerology does work for various people, at
least in their own experience. Caveat asterisk fine print. Because
a lot of it is similar to taro. The attractiveness
of it comes from people's natural desire to learn more
(22:47):
about themselves. Right. It reminds me that Stephen Crane poem
about the universe. It's similar, you, guys, to how some
people a lot of people will yearn for psychics or
personality test that will tell you, especially if you pay them,
that you are full of hidden strengths and powers, I've
reinforced your deepest needs and emotions, or, in a more
(23:11):
positive note, help you reframe the way that you look
at things in yourself and in the world around you.
They're countless online outfits of all the numerology schools we
just named that are going to take very simple information
about you, your full birth name. They'll usually want your
(23:32):
birth date or both, and they'll construct a life path
reading for you. That's the Western system. These are not
based on batteries of questions like Myers Briggs or determining
an anagram. The idea is that they're deep truths about you,
invulable insight that can be entirely derived from your name
(23:56):
and from your birthday. As the theory goes, it's because
each number, especially in your birth date, has a unique
vibration which gives it certain properties. Now I want to
sound like a jerk, but you know, fine, Sure I
sounded like a jerk, Fine.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Sure, hey, but you caveat it. It so it's okay, it's.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Just you know, it's will be framing. It's people are
using it to find romantic partners. Guys.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Well, if we take it back to the instrumentation, and
let's say a string that is vibrating at a certain tone,
that we would because you could associate that with a letter, right,
like an A, A, C, A G, something like that.
But that tone the number itself, as it is going
(24:49):
up and down, there is a different vibration, right if
you're if you're talking about frequency going up and down. Yeah,
So like there are ways to connect it back to
this right where your brain can kind of do that
thing you're you're talking about there then you're describing where
you're like, Okay, I guess I kind of understand how
a letter has a representative number and that number could
have a vibration. I can understand why you might believe that.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
But again, back to the math of music. I mean
a frequency is a vibration and it's a number. Yes,
So I mean I think that utterly tracks for me anyway.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
And then but then you what is that thing guy,
simatics where you can use frequencies, like if you're playing
a certain frequency through a speaker and then you've got
sand on top of that speaker, it will actually create shape.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
One.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
There's tons of examples of those, not to mention that,
like math and the way a record works, where it's
like grooves cut into a piece of frickin' plastic that
is then interpolated, you know, into a thing that you
hear with your ears, and if you look at the grooves,
they're just concentric circles, which is just kind of boiled
down to math.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
It's weird, man. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
I know I'm oversimplifying that, but I do tend to,
you know, and even binary code and the way all
digital representations of things are boiled down to numbers. And
now that we've got digital photography and increasingly elaborate and
advanced versions of recreations of images using digital technology, that's
(26:24):
a digital recreation of a thing that was once much
more analog, but even the analog form of it is
in some ways involves math.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
It's yes, I don't think that's oversimplifying. The art of
truly understanding something is to be able to explain it
simply shout out to how stuff works.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
True, well, in a very not simple way, because I
don't have too good brains. This is what I'm imagining.
If let's say we're using somebody's name, right, and we're
translating each letter in that person's name into a number,
then each one of those numbers corresponds to let's imagine
a piano key. Okay, Now imagine if you are playing
(27:04):
that entire person's name. Every one of those corresponding piano
keys gets played at one time when you say that
person's name, and that is the tone the numerical representation
of that human's name. And I really like that concept
of is that name or that phrase or that thing
that you're you know, that you're trying to represent with
(27:26):
numbers being played on a piano and hearing all of
it at one time. That's very That's an interesting concept
to me. It's not explaining anything.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Though, Yeah, Because as pretty as it might may sou folks,
fellow conspiracy realist, there's a glaring error in this concept.
In the case of Western numerological systems, the calculations of
your name are based on a number value assigned to
the English alphabet. So the pattern goes one to nine,
(27:58):
then repeats, so a equals one B equals two up
to I equals nine, and then when you get to J,
it recycles right. It iterates, so J equals one, and
so on and so forth, all the way up to Z,
which equals eight. The issue with this is that the
English alphabet itself is not an objective truth of reality.
(28:22):
It's a thing everybody agreed on that continually, even now
in twenty twenty six, evolves over time. So at various
points in history we see massive variables, right, trade, communication, war, disease, economics,
They all influence the formation of what we call modern
(28:43):
English today. So this is a little thought experiment that
I thought we might enjoy. Guys, If we went back
in time, all the way back to the formation of language,
and we just played the simulation again with all the
dice rolls accident once more, we would almost certainly not
(29:03):
end up with the same alphabet that exists here. The
odds are statistically preposterous. So therefore, in that other world
and that other simulation, yeah I'm doing simulation theory, we
would see that the resulting numerological system, based on whatever
language evolved in that other world, it would be way
(29:25):
different from the system you, as an English speaker in
your version of the Universe Encounter today. It's worth pointing
out right. It reminds me of that excellent conversation Stephen
Colbert and Ricky Gervais had about spirituality and atheism, which
is worth looking up by hoping you see it on YouTube.
(29:46):
I don't know how's Colbert doing. Has CBS pulled his stuff?
Oh like from the internet? Yeah? Is that gonna happen?
I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
I it's hard to say.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
It could be a political keep making money on it
if they keep it up, And that's.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
A good point, and that's a deal from the topic
at hand. But I just wanted to ask you guys,
maybe this is more of a strange news question. Did
you hear about the guy that kind of took his
time slot and there's like a model where he's kind
of paying the network in order. That's fascinating. I want
to talk mac what. Yeah, it's a new model kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Like, yeah, he's like renting space from CBS.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Who is this person? And how why? I'm sorry, I
need I won't bother y' all with it. I'm going
to go into well, no, maybe we just.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Say let's put a pin in this and talk about
it when we do strange news because I just and yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Let's figure out that guy's UH name and birth date
so we can do numerological chart analysis on them. This
will determine a person's lucky number, their life path, their
angel numbers. Recurring numbers are angel numbers. According to proponents,
these numbers will offer clues into how the world works
(30:56):
or the significance of people and events to you, the practitioner.
They may also show you numbers you should look out
for in your waking life. What's the word? Gosh?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Beta? Minhoff? Is that the phenomenon where you hear something
you see it all the time.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Where you see the things that you like just learn,
kind of like you learn a new word, you hear
a new song all of a sudden, it seems to
appear everywhere.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Right, So there's this is the pickle, and our buddy
Dan Harmon would love this. According to a lot of numerology,
or the basis of numerology, nothing happens by accident. Everything
is quantifiable. Everything happens according to the numbers in this
chaotic world. That's really comforting. And the idea does come
(31:48):
straight from Pythagoras, especially if you look at scholars who
have studied them, like Underwood Dudley, who's mentioned a lot
in the research we were doing. The author of Numeralology
or what Pythagorasts wrought Dudley makes this great argument. He says, Look,
the Pythagoreans became interested in number mysticism because they were
(32:11):
discovering incredibly fascinating real world facts about numbers. You add
up a series of odd numbers beginning with the number one,
the result is always a square number. What imagine being
the first person to figure that out? How do you
even explain that to people?
Speaker 4 (32:30):
I don't understand how anybody feared any other stuff out
like the Pythagorists of it all, And like, how do
you even wrap your head around these concepts without already
having math kind of to help you understand it? Like
how do you invent man?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (32:45):
I just don't get it. And again, I know that's
overstating the case a little bit, like because it is
an inherent thing that people just kind of pulled out
of these pre existing truths, But you still have to
have a system that you create. In order to do that,
you really have to have certain I mean, obviously they're
just very, very smart people, but the level of thinking
(33:06):
and problem solving that goes into these early, you know, innovators,
blows my mind every time.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
They were also far less distracted. They had a deep
attention economy.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
That's true. That's true.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
They didn't have to check their phone every I don't
know what the time window is for most people, but
they didn't check their phone constantly, so maybe they have
more time to think. And this I can't get past
the deep empathy here to realize how freaking astonishing and
world changing these discoveries most must have been. It was
(33:39):
one of, if not the strangest reality hacks these folks
had ever seen. So of course they're going to get
super into numbers. They're going to say, all is number.
That's the quote, and if you can measure. The idea
is that you can measure everything in reality and describe
it in quantifiable terms, in numbers, in proportions. It reminds
(34:04):
me two guys of a long time ago. I had
this great conversation with our pal Tyler Klaying, who later
went on to make a film called God of Spinoza
about how music is math.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I remember that one.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Company yeah yeah, right, elephant yeah yeah. That was a
fun one to work on. My sister was in it.
She was the starring rule.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Josh Clark was in it as well, because I couldn't
make the schedule work up by end. Sorry, Josh, yuess
we'll take Josh, then, I guess we'll take the most
famous guy.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
A very good personal memory of mine, though, that was
one of making a film. Attempting to make a feature
length film is one of the craziest things any human
can do when you don't have a budget.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Speaking of that, and again not to deround. Is so
excited that I keep hearing such good news about this
film that I loved, Obsession, which was made for seven
hundred and fifty thousand dollars and is on track to
be the most profitable movie of all time, uh, making
over two hundred and thirty five million dollars. This dude,
Curry Parker, who's like a YouTube dude doing comedy again,
I just super cool. I just wanted to shout out
(35:14):
that guy because I really loved that movie.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Rats yeah, and shout out to the young director of
back Rooms, Thank you for doing your part to save
Hollywood people.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Are loving that too. I think it's a cool yeah,
a very rising tide situation.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yes, save Hollywood for just burning it down, saybe.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Parts of Hollywood, maybe the bad park.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
I don't mean physically, let's not actually set fires. They
have a good lord that Hollywood. Yes, But the system.
The system is what I'm reflecting to.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
We've got some notes. Hollywood is what we're saying. There is, indeed,
with the idea of music being mat there is indeed
a comprehensible, complex, yet understandable nature to mathematics, and through
understanding that neat, humanity has made phenomenal strides in understanding
more about reality. So I would say, without being too
(36:09):
much like a quotable in double XL, I would say,
if God exists, math is best described as when God
wrote poetry. Yeah, I could see that.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
I also, again, I think going back to the binary code,
that's the best way I can understand it. It's like
this programming language at the heart of all of it,
and the question and then becomes it's like a chicken
or the egg thing. Obviously we know when it comes
to binary code and programming, the code came first, but
then the code was used to create a thing that
already pre existed or that people had an idea about
(36:42):
what they wanted it to be. So it's like it
does kind of become a chicken or the egg question
when it comes to like math in the.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Universe, why does numerology in the West come from Pythagorean thought? Well,
it's because Pythagoreans also sordid numbers into categories. And here,
if we're cool with it, I'd love to shout out
our legendary longtime colleague Tracy V. Wilson, writing for How
(37:11):
Stuff Works, she this is kind of complicated, guys, I'd
love some help because I can't quite put my head
around it. But she talks about the original way that
the Pythagoreans grouped numbers.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Oh, I like this a lot. Okay, I'm gonna here
you go, Tracy, I'm gonna do my best. You're ready.
Numbers like one, four, and nine are square because a
corresponding number of dots can be arranged in a perfect square.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
One mm hmm, one, three, six, and ten are triangular. Interesting,
how is one triangular? I'm genuinely confused on that.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
One.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
I understand three, I understand six. I think I understand ten. Okay,
all right, let's keep going. One, three, six, or ten
dots can be arranged into regular triangles. Two, six, and
twelve are oblong, since the corresponding number of dots form rectangles. Okay, yes,
(38:17):
I can visualize some of that. I don't understand the
one triangular thing.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
It says because triangular numbers count dots that can form
an equilateral triangle, and the nth triangular number is tn
equals n parentheses n plus one. But okay, I don't
know either.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Never mind.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
I was really hoping. I was really hoping to lay
it out for you, guys.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I found what I thought was a reasonable explanation.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
I just asked the question and an article came up.
But nah, it's not that easy, guys. You're not alone, Matt.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Yeah, you're not alone, none of us, because nu meracy
is a skill that takes a lot of work. And
what I love about these things, guys, is reading the
reading the best non math boffin explanations of this. For
the first two or three paragraphs. I don't know about you.
(39:08):
I'm usually on board. I'm like, okay, I get it, Yeah, dots,
all right, pebbles whatever. But then by the fourth or
fifth paragraph, the water gets so deep.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Yeah, I mean, the best thing I will pull out
of this description that I found is this idea that
one single dot is the smallest triangular arrangement.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
I know, talking about my gosh, all right, shout out
to every look. I'll say it because it's legal in
parts of the US. Shout shout out to everybody who's
very high as you're watching this. Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Oh I was high on pot news. No I am, actually,
and here here it is. Maybe this is better. So
a trianglar numbers count dots in one, two, three rose
forming a triangle with one row. There's one dot. A
degenerate triangle with a single vertex.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Degenerate triangle just because your favorite.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Degenerat they've got this.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Okay, So the Pythagoreans have this pretty clever secular approach,
and we can tell from the way they're describing it
that they are using real world examples. Right, they're drawing dots,
they're moving pebbles. But along with this they also assign
non numerical, non quantifiable traits to numbers. And these determinations
(40:25):
have a lot more to do with culture and mysticism
and vibes than you know, actual math. So it's like,
think about it this way. You're looking at simple arithmetic
nine plus nine, and you say, all right, we understand
the result of nine plus nine is eighteen. But the
Pythagoreans may also put some deeper spin on this and
say nine is also an inherently good number. It's an
(40:51):
inherently masculine number. So nine plus nine is good guy
plus good guy, which means that logically eighteen is freaking
superb best guy.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Well, maybe someone can explain this mathematical magic to me.
It's one of the only things that helped me with
my times tables when I was younger, like multiples of nine,
or like things like six times nine is fifty four
and five plus four equals nine, you know, nine times
nine eighty one eight plus one equals nine times.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
You know.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
I know there's a reason inherently, but when you have
these little like tricks like that that appear, that sort
of emerge, you know, from this seeming chaos, it really
it fascinates me.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Well, yeah, that concept of nine's been in eighteen, in
particular being double plus good. That was one of the
things I found to be very interesting looking at Jamatria,
one of the older like Hebrew Jamatria, the older versions
of this, and it goes back to Assyria and like
the rulers of Assyria and being all about we need
(41:57):
to put these eighteens and these nines together into our
temples and they need to correspond with our name numbers.
And you're like, oh, what the hell it's been going
on that long.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
I imagine being there, architect and having that kickoff, meeting
with the celebrity, the ruler and then the priest, and
the priest is and you're saying, look, this is how
high we can build stuff in ancient Assyria, and they're like, okay,
but I talk with the priest and we need everything
(42:26):
to sort of nine and eighteen Okay, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Going to need to be about sixteen thousand cubits couse
of the name.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
And that's part of why in the Torah we have
such specific measurements right of different the dimensions of different things,
like the arc of the Covenant is described in detail,
and there were big questions about how much of that
was symbolic or numerologically related. I don't know if we
(42:54):
ran into that, but I do know that you ran
the numbers on some names on some names of our
fellow co host here Matt in Hebrews Jamatria.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Well see yeah, and some and some not so co hosts.
For instance, Jeffrey Edward Epstein, according to the Jamatria calculator
I found, is twenty four hundred and five. So twenty
four oh five. That's a very interesting number. Let's just
throw another one in there. I don't I don't know
his middle name, but Benjamin Netanyahoo is fifteen twenty two.
(43:26):
That's an interesting name to put in there, an interesting number,
fifteen twenty two. I'm just doing leaders right now. Donald
John Trump twelve eighty seven eighty seven. No, these don't
mean anything to me.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
What about Jesus Hubert Christ?
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Thanks, that's a good idea. We're gonna Herbert Hubert.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
That's a great question, because you and he have different vibrations.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I've never known what DH stood for. Ben This is
a learning opportunity for me as well.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Thought it was Howitzer, Yes, yes, ah, yes, Ratio other
names that begin with H. Let us know. We're going
to take a break for a word from our sponsors.
We'll be right back. We've returned again with the let's
(44:24):
pursue these concurrently right branch to fronts. In Pythagorean numerical tradition,
odd numbers are masculine. That's why we just called nine
a dude. And sorry, nine even numbers are feminine. This
is related to what we talk about in the past, uh, anthropomorphization.
It's the human obsession with assigning human perspective to non
(44:49):
human things, concepts, or events. Later in humanity you see
vestiges of this, like how certain languages will call some
nouns inherently feminine or masculine, you know what I mean.
Spanish and French would be very easy examples of this.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Even an odd I've always been fascinated by that concept,
and like even and even again back in music, Sorry,
this is just my big, my best frame of reference.
There are even and odd frequencies that have different characteristics.
I just think is so cool that, like, you know,
we're talking about vibrations, we're talking about numbers having this
inherent energy, and I think the best and most fun
(45:28):
way to kind of understand that is through music, which
is just vibrations that are then assigned value, you know,
numerically speaking, So even in odd frequencies, they very much
have distinct qualities.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
And the assignation of value right, right, that's the big
part of this. It reminds us of the early days
of alchemy, right, chemical interactions were discovered. Chemical interactions there
are still used to date, but they were phrased in
spiritual meat. So the Pythagoreans huge strides in learning about arithmetic,
(46:03):
mathematics and numbers, and they immediately said, okay, we figured
out something crazy. What else could this mean? And then,
being human, they said, how can we make it more
about us? Right in the world in which we live?
I'm kidding, but the main thing is to be fair.
There is no current evidence that Pythagoras ever thought he
(46:27):
could analyze his disciples personalities by assigning numbers to the
letters of their names or their dates of birth. There's
no evidence that he thought that.
Speaker 4 (46:36):
The name thing throws me because name seems very uh,
what's the word I'm looking for? Arbitrary? You know, I mean,
I know there are things like nominal determinism and all
these concepts, but like date of birth, if I were
to go out for some kind of woo woo, you know,
version of things, I could see how that would maybe
be more aligned with the stars or the universe. But
(46:57):
the name is like chosen based on kind of preference,
like aesthetic, you know, the tastes of the parents. So
I just I don't know if that would necessarily be
something that I could believe would have a numerical some
sort of like significance. But the date of birth I
could get. And we also know that I think some
of the more I guess convincing wu wu astrological kind
(47:20):
of stuff the birthday books, there's some really neat stuff
in those that really do seem to align and like
a lot of the astrology of it all, you can
definitely pull out some things that seem to have meaning,
whether it's the bet or minehoff you know of it all,
or just the confirmation bias. That's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
That's exactly two quick responses with that. When first off,
there are some notable languages where numerology kind of already exists,
like in like some Hebrew names do have of course
matria baked into them, but then.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
That's because they're thinking about that in advance, and they're
signing that based on a series of options or like
cultural significance. Yes, I got it.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Yeah, And the second point would be that not all
countries practice the same calendar, and not all countries or cultures,
I should say, right, the birth date the same way.
So does the order of save month, day year or
your day month or whatever mix up you want to have.
Does that determine something different? Right?
Speaker 4 (48:21):
Like in Europe they do day first, then month than year,
which makes way more So, it does make more sense,
but it also can really throw you off. I don't
know if I told you guys this. I was in
Berlin just before COVID restrictions were lifted, and I showed
them my sad, little dog eared vaccine card and because
of the way my birthday was listed, they thought that
I hadn't gone the vaccine like recently enough, and they
(48:44):
like wouldn't let me into this place. And then we
have this whole moment where we had to realize we
finally got on the same page of like, no, no,
this is just like a difference in convention.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
And the Pythagoreans had to realize this. I mean, let's
think about it. They're a group of brilliant people to
logically understand that different cultures were already using different alphabets
and calendars at this time in history, not everybody agreed
on what year it was, and by the way, we
still have several different calendars going today. They knew it
(49:15):
would be a fool's errand to assume that all cultures,
despite their own history, spiritual systems, unique languages, it'd be
foolish to assume they would all have the same results
from one size fits all numerology. But it's still again
to me, I hope to all of us, it's understandable
(49:35):
that the Pythagoreans in particular would have said math is
the closest thing to a universal language, so we can
find deeper meaning. We've already proven some crazy stuff about triangles.
What else is there to find? Let's look into it? Right,
it makes sense, it does.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
I think. So I get so frustrated because I'm having
thoughts about everything you guys just talked about for a
while there, and I'm it's I think it might be
impossible for me to wrap my head around some of this,
because I get internally frustrated and kind of angry at
myself for believing a thing for a moment, and then
(50:16):
because I'm like, oh, it could be more skeptical, and
then then I truly do feel like, oh, I kind
of see how that works, and yeah, but I'm going
in a circle. It's very circular for me because I
don't want to let myself believe something that I feel
strongly is not real. I don't know, man. I wonder
(50:40):
how people today, because I know it is still a
very popular thing. You can go online and find a
ton of different place to calculate these different things in
all the different forms, right in all the different versions
of numerology and jamatry and stuff that goes way way back.
People are using these sites. There are advertisements on the
websites that are clearly going out to people. There's money
(51:03):
being made. I just wonder, did you guys see that
show of the rehearsal, Yes, the first season. Do you
remember there was a guy who was gonna like go
on a date and then pretend to be the boyfriend
slash husband of a woman who wanted to be a mom.
(51:24):
Do you remember this at all?
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Idea it goes deep?
Speaker 2 (51:28):
Yeah, Well, I think about that guy when I think
about numerology in general. That dude pops up in his
car pointing things out and talking about the numbers of
all the things that he's watching. As they're driving, and
I in my maybe I'm wrong, but in my mind
I'm like, oh gosh, this is dumb. But maybe that's
just being too judgmental.
Speaker 6 (51:50):
But ORS right there with you, No, it is that
because it's one of these things too, where when you
it's like a way of like what's the worling for,
like overplaying your kind of hand in a way like
if you lean too hard, and like this is the
end all be all, and I need the numbers to
match up.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
You're gonna be spinning your wheels, you know, for the
rest of your life. But if you can use it
like as a guiding principle or as some kind of
like the way people maybe use certain parts of religion
or whatever, I could see how it could be useful
as a some sort of guide or some sort of
check in, you know, like a sort of spiritual quality.
But at the end of the day, we're just trying
(52:28):
to assign values to what's ultimately happenstance, intuition, and serendipity.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Well, I think they go, yeah, I see what you're saying.
My wonder here, guys, is if there is some kind
of deeper secret meaning that is being lost on me
because you go back to some of the old Jamatrius stuff.
I'm I'm seeing essentially writing that in my mind is saying,
(52:53):
these numbers allow you, if you do it right, and
if you can calculate things and see the world and
words and everything in this way through Jamatria, you can
see the secret hidden part of the world and life
and humans and actions if you do it right, as
in it's the know very toss thing concept, but it's
(53:17):
through numbers.
Speaker 4 (53:17):
Well, couldn't we argue that like algorithms, and let's call
it machine learning or large language models or whatever, at
a certain point are really really advanced interpretations of patterns,
which is just you know, a way that you can,
you know, use numbers to describe things and to be predictive.
Like isn't that what that is just with more specificity
(53:41):
and more precision and just given like more data, Like
isn't data numerology in a way, Like it's just like
taking numbers and feeding them into the right system and
then getting a result that that is the product of
analyzing representations of events and people's preference says, and you know,
smushing it all together into this giant you know, numerical
(54:04):
kind of stew and then at the end of it
you can, with some accuracy, begin to predict the future.
I don't know, man, maybe I'm being too flippant about it,
but I just to me, it's like what they were
trying to describe with numerology and a lot of this
stuff back in the day. I feel like we're approaching
a place where it's its own kind of oracle.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
I even saw the thing about Abjod. I think, I
think that's how you say it, Abjod numbers numerals. Ben,
did you see this with the Arabic system that was
againly ancient. Yeah, doing kind of the same thing, but
not really.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
It's yeah, it's interesting, right because a lot of people,
a great many people, and some of you fellow conspiracy realists,
have found comfort in modern numerological systems or in ancient
systems that are non Western. The thing is, it reminds
me of reading your horoscope in newspapers back when those
(55:05):
were a thing. The current numerological systems that you're most
likely to encounter, they're going to come off pretty sanitized.
You are not going to get a life number that says, whoops,
you're doomed. Buckaroo you're getting a heart attack at twenty five. Instead,
you'll get something that says, again, it's like the astrolog
loose astrological sun sign charts. It's gonna say, here are
(55:28):
your core tendencies, some strengths, some weaknesses. And this reminds
me this might have been a little before your time.
Little but Matt, do you remember when I got obsessed
with a Mesoamerican astrology and we ran the numbers, and
their predictions are not sanitized. They will say stuff like,
(55:50):
you have a bad number, you must have done something
terrible in your past life, you were doomed, you were
f uc beeped. They would uh, that's my I'm trying
new beeps. Uh that that is a version of the unsanitized,
unlike warm, fuzzy stuff that you can see. And some
(56:11):
numerological systems still practice that. But you know, you always
have to ask, right, Real science is not sanitized. Real
science will give you disturbing answers. If this stuff is
just like go you, then is it science? Is it factual? Well?
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Is it even that helpful? Because for me, the only
way a fortune is gonna be helpful is if I'm
gonna it's gonna help me with the bad stuff, right,
if it's just big upping me when I learn my
fortune or I learn some something that might happen, like, well, great,
something good's gonna happen. Yeay, I want to know when
(56:51):
the tree is gonna fall on me, so uh, hook
me up please if we're doing this, I like that
version of it, Ben, the one, the one you were
obsessed with.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
Same oh man, Yeah, and shout out to my best
human friend who got a bad number in meso America
meso America belief systems. Corey. If you're listening, I'm glad
you're okay.
Speaker 2 (57:12):
Oh no, we know what happened to Corey. Poor guy,
Poor guy.
Speaker 3 (57:18):
We should also mention, though, as we alluded to earlier,
and I love this setup as we're as we're wrapping up,
numerology can also have a dark side. It could be
misused in a number of ways. I'm thinking, in particular,
going back to the conversation about serial killers right or
evil leaders. Numerologist, especially in the recent past, would make
(57:43):
great claims or great to do about taking the name
and birthday of, say, a serial murderer like Ted Bundy.
But I almost called Tim Bundy. If there's a Tim
Bundy of the crowd, So that was his kinder, gentler,
younger brother, Tim right right. He was more into fly fishing,
so did the killer Macromea. And I guess fly fishing
(58:06):
is a different kind of serial killing.
Speaker 4 (58:08):
That's true, that's true, a little more acceptable socially, a
little more socially acceptable.
Speaker 3 (58:13):
So they would look sick waiter boots, right, they would
look at Ted Bundy, and they would explore this personality
or these actions through the lens of their numerological system.
The problem here is the analyst already knew which crimes
have been committed. In the case of Bundy, they already
knew his name, his birthday, and they knew a lot
(58:34):
about his life. So when they derived associated numbers from
their respective systems, they were able to retroactively rationalize their
findings and fit their interpretation into whatever we already knew
about the killer, and add to whatever they wanted the
supposed credibility of numerology to be as a whole. Side note,
(58:57):
I know some of us already know this numerology. We're
also actively analyzing letters from the Zodiac killer. Do you
guys remember this part?
Speaker 4 (59:06):
M hm? Not not with the degree of specificity that
you do.
Speaker 5 (59:11):
I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (59:12):
I mean people are desperate for answers. That's the side note.
It's important for us to mention this as well. One
issue with numerology. It's not unique, but it can be
misused when people are experiencing a cognitive crisis or mentally unwell.
This brings us to a not uncommon phenomenon for people
(59:33):
with certain mental issues. We've heard of delusions of grandeur,
but they're also what we call delusions of reference or
referential delusions. This is when you start to believe that everyday, people, places, events,
objects hold personal significance for your life despite no logical
connection to you. Right a pop star is making these songs,
(59:56):
and these songs coded messages to me. See the number
you know one seventy three everywhere, and that means something
that is a hidden truth that only I recognize. In
those situations, belief in an occultic symbolism of numbers or
combinations thereof, it can lead to self harm or harm
(01:00:18):
to others. So if you or someone you know is
getting a little too engrossed in patterns, getting a little
too like the movie Pie, if they think no one
else can see or understand what's really going on, it
might be time to look for professional assistance. I know
that's a bummer point, but I feel like it's important
for us to make it well.
Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
Yeah, much as much like there's that condition of being
kind of numbers blind, there are people that can develop
obsessions with numbers or literally where you look to your
point bent, where you see numbers everywhere, And I think
that is speaking to a human relationship with numbers and
the meaning that we ascribe to them, and how it
(01:00:58):
can become this kind of point of focus. Especially, you know,
I always think of like a beautiful mind and like
the gift of the dude, like drawing the formulas, you know,
on the clear piece of glass, like with a grease
marker or a grease pencil. Like there's a certain madness
and order in numbers. And it made me think of
(01:01:18):
the idea too, of randomness, and like true randomness, the
idea of like random numbers generators, and there's all kinds
of fascinating methods and scientific techniques for generating true random
and what that even means, I don't know. It's all
just it's kind of all mind blowing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
I know.
Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
I keep saying that but when you bring up the
whole yeah, falling down that rabbit hole and becoming obsessed
with numbers that we've seen kind of dramatize so much
in movies like that Jim Carrey one with the number,
whatever the number is because I couldn't possibly remember it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Or pie number twenty three.
Speaker 4 (01:01:52):
That's the one. Wasn't that your number?
Speaker 5 (01:01:54):
Matt? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
No, no.
Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Ooh, numbers thirty two, twenty three, read it, it's in
your bible.
Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
What we're saying is, ultimately, numerology is fun, and of
course it's fascinating. Math always is, but our key words
for any numerological explanation, experience encounter should be the following fun, entertainment, curiosity.
If you ever feel the numbers are telling you, quote
(01:02:28):
unquote to do something unreasonable, please please, please, on our behalf,
get a second opinion before you do anything rash. I mean,
that's pretty much it for us tonight, folks. Can you
count on numerology really quickly?
Speaker 4 (01:02:41):
But I did find the term for what you were
just describing, and it is so similar to the mathematical
blindness that I was mentioning earlier. It is called a rhythmomania,
or also numeromania a less common synonym referring to numerology
specifically and an obsession with it, but it describes a
compulsive preoccupation with numbers and counting, and often as a
(01:03:05):
symptom of or a subtype of obsessive compulsive disorder.
Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Yeah, so that's our question. Can you count on numerology? Sure,
as long as we think of it as a psychological tool,
a need activity, an interesting diversion. But it's just like
counting the old trope of counting flower pedals, like she
loves me, she loves me, not he loves me. He
loves me not. A person's name and birth date alone
(01:03:31):
is not scientifically proven to confirm whether or not they're
your soulmate. And you are something that cannot be quantified,
you as you cannot be put into numbers. We can
explain so much of outside reality through chemistry and physics
and math, but your inner life, you, specifically you, it's indefinable.
(01:03:52):
It's unique. And that's beautiful. You know. I don't think
you need numbers to explain it.
Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
You're so beautiful, and that's for sure. What the numbers say,
that's just can't bring you.
Speaker 5 (01:04:06):
They can.
Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
It's called numeromania or taxis or taxi can bring you down.
We'd love to hear your thoughts. Folks. Thank you so
much for counting down some time with us. Your time
counts very much. We'd love to be a part of it.
Please find us on the lines, call us on a phone.
You can always send us an email.
Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
If you want to find us on the interwebs, you
can do so at the handle conspiracy stuffer conspiracies I
have showed depending on which social media platform you you
get into.
Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
Hey, yes, we have a phone number. It is one
eight three three st d w y t K. When
you call in and give yourself a cool nickname and
let us know if we can use your name and
message on one of our listener mail episodes that show
up in the audio feeds all across the interwebs. Everything
all the time, A little bit of everything all the time.
(01:04:55):
Find it when you call in. Let us know what
your Jamatria number is.
Speaker 5 (01:05:00):
Is.
Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Palm Beach Petez is three hundred interesting? Interesting?
Speaker 4 (01:05:05):
Who is this Palm Beach Pete.
Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
I don't know. Look it up. It's it's Jeffrey Epstein,
but it's not, but it's not what it is but
it's not. Kind of like the numbers thing. We also
have an email address. Please send us a message.
Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet ut afraid. Sometimes the
void rags so three two, one forty three. Find us
out here in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 5 (01:05:37):
My numbers two.
Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Today's lucky number is eighteen. My name is Matt, my
name is Nol.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
They call me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. Now before we continue,
fellow conspiracy realist, please go to conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot
com and let us know your favorite number if you
(00:53):
have one. Do you guys have a favorite number? Lucky number?
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Sleven?
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Sleven? Yes, it's up there with a let.
Speaker 5 (01:01):
Three.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yes. Yeah, No, I was just I want to hear yours.
But I was just saying off mic that I think
I have a condition known as discalculia.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
The numerical version of dislikes.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Yeah, I just I have number blindness. Frankly, so whenever
there's that thing other than like really ones that have
been hammered into my skull like blink one eighty two,
I can very rarely remember a number associated with like
a title or a thing. I do have all of
the hallmarks of this, and then I'm a pretty decent
verbal communicator, okay, problem solving, more into the arts and
(01:34):
music and stuff like that, but never been good at math.
Got nearly a perfect verbal score on the SAT and
really flunk the math section.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah, and this is this reminds me again because we
were talking off Mike. I think we all have a
little bit of those crossed wires in our right urns.
If you asked me when JFK was assassinated in the
United States, I would say, of course, November twenty second,
nineteen sixty three. But if you ask me the name
of one of my favorite Stephen King books, I would
(02:04):
say the title is just numbers.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Because it's a date in shorthand right like with slashes
and stuff, if I'm not saying. And also, apparently another
hallmark of this condition is the tendency to transposed.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Numbers reverse numbers.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
But weirdly, I remember my childhood phone number still to
this day because that's just what do you call it,
a formative A core memory, I guess, So it's weird.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
What about you, Matt, you Mett?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, the primary number I think about if I imagine one
that has a lot of significance in my life would
be twenty three. Okay, for reasons we will not be discussing.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
But no, I don''t allow it to tell us more.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
You gotta let people be, you gotta let people at that.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I know it's true it's twenty three. Isn't twenty three
as a symbolic number?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
Though? Or I might.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
See I'm doing it again. I think I'm thinking of
twenty seven, twenty one. What's your thirty?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
There's an enigma associated with twenty.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Two, yes, yeah, and forty two for all the Douglas
Adams fans, and I think that's the one the meaning
of life. I have a personal relationship with some weird numbers.
Maybe we'll get into that later, but folks, we want
to hear from you. Most importantly, this is a weird one, okay,
and hopefully it's a fun one. We are recording this
(03:20):
Britney fans of numerology on Monday, June first, twenty twenty six.
You've probably heard about some version of numerology before, even
if the name wasn't deployed, you probably have dabbled with
it to some degree in your own life.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Well, we've talked to it's come up a few times
recently the Seminal Art House picture Pie early Darren Aronofski
film about Kabbala and you know, tracing the many, many,
many many decimal places of Pie and that representing some
sort of cosmic truth and or terror.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, we made a video on this way back on
yes in the day. I couldn't even speak there. We
did it a long time ago and if you go
to the Old House Stuff Works YouTube channel you can
find it posted fourteen years ago.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Little known fact Matt Frederick did not learn to speak
until doing this.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Podcast today this morning. Yeah, oh what I'm teleported.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
We were different places telepop to Virgin Voyages.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
With us, Yes, October second through the seventh. We are
joining our some of our best friends in podcasting on
the high Seas and we want you to come to
so much so that we jumped through living your time
to put this message in the show.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Yeah, and it's starting in the Big Apple, New York
City to Bermuda. And it's also we'll be getting back
right around the time of Comic Con, so you can
make you know, double up, go see some nerd stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That's right, But Hey, while you're on the cruise with us,
because you should go on the cruise with us. We
can literally just hang on the ship where we can
get off in Bermuda and do something cool that we
don't even know about yet that we're excited to do
with you.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Excursions. What are the dates again, guys?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
October two through the seventh, So do join. Please remember
that tickets and bookings are selling out quickly.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Have heard that it is a fact?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah, so check out our live show there and for now,
check out the show already in progress.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Oh no, we're going back in Who's.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
The following up on our recent investigation of the tarot,
We are finally diving into this related form of divination,
which is often seen as more scientific than taro or
other forms of divination by its practitioners. What is numerology?
How does it work? How does it not work? Why
do some people even today remain concerned about possible occultic connections?
(05:57):
Let's get into it. Three two one, twenty three forty two. Skidoo,
there we go. Here are the facts. Okay. At its
most basic, numerology is not one thing. It is a
group term describing various ways of encountering or using numbers
(06:23):
to interpret a person's character, or to divine hidden truths
about the past, present, and future. And what's interesting here
is that it inherently assumes, no matter what version of
it you're practicing, it inherently assumes that all numbers have
an energy, a vibration, and occult hidden meaning beyond your
(06:46):
typical secular arithmetic. We can agree on that, oh for sure.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
I'm sorry, Matt. It's so interesting though, because like numbers
are clearly kind of a form of technology, sort of
an invention used to describe phenomenon that predates, right, But
then they ultimately when you really drill down into them,
especially with like the genius thinkers, like the thagorists and
all the folks that really innovated in mathematics, you really
do start to see these fundamental truths emerging. So I
(07:13):
understand that kind of thinking about how these are in
some way representative of like these building blocks in and
of themselves and could potentially hold some sort of predictive
mystical power.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I get it, I do. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I was just going to say, along with that meaning
and everything, there is power because of the meaning.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
It's interesting how reciprocal. It ends up becoming the concept
of interchanging words and numbers and phrases, names, everything into
something that represents the absolute basis of creation. If you
think all the way down to protons and neutrons and
(07:52):
how many there are of those things, and then you
go even deeper right, and then if you go even
further out as above so below kind of stuff, the
number remains largely the same like any no matter what number,
no matter what language anyone ever speaks, right, the number
kind of remains the same, well number there.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
It's not like there's like, you know, different Like there's
definously different languages and different pronunciations of numbers, but the
basis of mathematics is like universal.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, there's so many different types of spiritual belief systems
that could be called numerology today, or they include facets
of the larger concept of numerology we're talking about like
the Kabbalah, we're talking about Childean, Tamil and of course Pythagorean.
The if you if you look at the trace of
(08:45):
like if we did forensic numerology, we would see it's
been with civilization since humans began human y, you know,
the Babylonians, the Egyptians were doing it. Numbers then were
not understood as mere quantities. They were understood as symbols,
imbued or dare I say, imbrowed with symbolic significance. So
(09:07):
that's why if you're taking a fun numerology quiz on
the internet today, what you're going to probably be practicing
is descended from Pythagoras. A lot of numerologists will credit Pythagoras,
a Greek philosopher of old, as the founder of numerology.
(09:27):
This is largely true for the Western system, but those
other systems, to be fair, were created more or less independently,
and we got to be honest. Pythagorasts, you know, kind
of started a cult, very good at math. Apparently his followers,
the Pythagoreans, studied stuff that so many of us are
(09:48):
in love with, philosophy, math, music, and they did have
several fundamental discoveries that remain crucial to human civilization today,
like the in theorem. We all remember that one, right.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Right, that's the one about triangles.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Right, that's the one about triangle. The square of the
length of the hypot news is equal to the sum
of the squares of the two other sides right right,
shout out to it's a joke about a joke, a joke.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
About a joke about a joke. It's very mad. I
think it's appropriate to repeat in this in this context.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Dude pretended to be a dude disguised as another dude.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Just rewatch. Tropic thunder man holds up A two plus
B two equals C two. Uh. This is also a
It plays a huge role in some sci fi stuff
we can get to later. They also this will be
of interest of my colleagues here. They also are reported
to be the first Western investigators who discovered the beautiful
(10:54):
mathematical proportions in musical harmonies.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I mean, I guess that's the way that I can
kind of see myself to organically participate in math without
actually knowing the math of it all. There's a lot
of math that goes into a lot of what I
do with synthesizers and composition, but I couldn't exactly explain
it to you in mathematical terms, But intuitively I am
kind of participating that just by messing with intervals and relationships,
(11:21):
you know, between frequencies and all of that. And you
can do that that's a beautiful thing about music without
having to drill down into the nuts and bolts. But
it's all there, but just below the surface. And there's
also different kinds of scales. You've got Western scales that
have certain intervals and relationships, You've got Eastern scales that
are different, and all of that stuff involves the relationship
(11:41):
between notes and intervals. And then you've got like atonal
scales that are even more complex mathematically because they don't
have hard intervals. So it's really fascinating stuff, and it
is a way that even the mathematically dyslexic among us
can kind of intuitively participate in these like really fascinating
building blocks.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
And of course we have the other big discovery, at
least in the West, attributed to the Pythagorean cult, which
is the first irrational number, the square root of two
aka street game Pythagoras is constant irrational numbers. We can't
get into it. I don't think we're qualified, but they
(12:22):
are a phenomenal entry point into exactly why humanity remains
so fascinated with numbers and math in general, because going
back to an earlier point, math is at heart an independent,
constant language. It can function as a common tongue between
otherwise mutually incomprehensible cultures. This is why quite some time ago,
(12:47):
some very smart humans decided that math is probably the
most realistic avenue for communication with intelligent non human civilizations.
If you can figure out how to communicate, you know,
nine plus nine is eighteen or two plus two is four,
then you and an alien civilization might have a lingual fronka.
(13:10):
Amazing stuff, Isn't it weird?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
How there are sometimes in history where folks don't agree
on what one is sure how much just one.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Is, or the discovery of zero, or whether we go
base eight or base ten.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Well, yeah, not even to mention negative numbers. That's a
whole other thing. And I always confuse it negative numbers
with irrational numbers. They're not the same. Irrational numbers are
just numbers that can't be expressed. They are real numbers.
They can't be expressed like using an integer. But to me,
like negative numbers are kind of theoretical because you can't
have less than a thing if we're talking about quantifiable
(13:50):
elements of using numbers as representations of things.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Right, Maybe it's because of the limitations of English, but
I feel like we're being unfair and gas lighting certain
numbers by calling them irrational. You know what I mean.
They have just who they are.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
They have their own logic to them. Yes, well they're
they're highly logical.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
It's all logic.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Really.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I've got all these images of Terrence Howard in my head.
Did you guys see.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Those videos of him Terry out? Yes, Yeah, I've seen
the interviews. I've I've read some interviews. Uh, he's got
a he's got a lot of charts you can look
up as well as three D models.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I would say, you know, no matter how you feel
about it or what you think about it, especially if
you look down upon it, I would just say it
is quite fascinating, if that makes sense. If you let
your mind kind of go with it for a moment,
you're like, oh, what is going on over here? And
you can see why when folks over all of these centuries,
(14:52):
these you know, thousands of years where humans have been
playing with numbers and words and like making them make
codes in ways, you can see the intrigue that if
you're someone let's say, like Pythagoras, standing up higher than
the other folks around you and explaining how all of
these words and phrases have numerical meaning, and that meaning
(15:13):
is hidden and secret and all this stuff. You can
see how you could get taken in, perhaps at least
I can simply by watching some of the things that
Terrence Howard spoken about.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Well, and I just want to walk back with something
I said too, like negative numbers are real numbers, and
they're describing a relationship like it's like, it's all about
what you said the earlier ban about what we agree
is that baseline. Negative numbers just everything to the left
of that baseline. And they while they don't describe a
thing that is it exists in my hand, they describe
a lack of a thing right or like a deficit right,
(15:45):
like a debt of some kind, which is a theoretical
thing again kind of based on what we agree stuff is.
So there's so many interesting caveats when it comes to numbers,
but then they also don't lie in theory.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
There's also a very real world impact of negative numbers
for anybody who's had a really nasty meeting about quarterly
returns and profit predictions. Unrelated with a shout out to
our fearless leader, Bob Pittman, math and magic have always
been closely intertwined in virtually every single human culture. It
(16:23):
makes so much sense logically if we exercise empathy. Early
humans probably knew how to count and render certain calculations
of the seasons, the heavens, and the harvest before the
advent of the written word. But the invention, or if
you want, the discovery of literacy, led to a revelation
(16:43):
in mathematics as well. It's the related distinct invention of numeracy.
The ability to not just competently understand numbers and their relationship,
which we will call math, but the ability to communicate that,
to write it down, to speak it, to contact someone
(17:04):
that had nothing in common with you, have them tackle
the same equation, and they would have provable, reproducible results.
I think about it this way, guys. So you go
around the world, right, Let's say you're a polyglot who
can speak five languages. You know that every language has
thousands of words for emotions, some of which don't directly
(17:28):
translate to other cultures. These cultures will independently invent language.
There is no universal non mathematical language, but math is
the best way to communicate. No human culture is going
to tell you certain numbers like forty two or eleven,
(17:49):
or two or nine or a million. They're not going
to tell you that those numbers don't exist. The difference
is the symbolic meaning assigned to those numbers in a
giving culture usually draws from the previous belief systems of
that culture. For example, you might go to I think
(18:10):
some of us are going to East Asian Sphere later
this year, and there you shouldn't be surprised when you
hop into an elevator and there's no number four on
the elevator, maybe not at number fourteen if you're in China.
This is because four, when it's pronounced is si. It
means the number four, but it's also one tone off
(18:34):
from the Chinese word si, which means death, so they
don't want a death button on the elevator.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
And of course here, for other reasons, we don't have
a thirteenth floor, or at least a historical building. I
guess that are built within a certain range because of
negative associations with the number thirteen.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Check out our Ridiculous History episode for more on the
why the West is so sketchy about the number thirteen.
You're absolutely right, I'd love to see an elevator, you guys,
where they refuse to acknowledge all the culturally unlucky numbers.
I wonder how many buttons you can actually push.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
It really makes you feel bad for fourteen. Yeah, fourteen
is just pretending to be fourteen. And wait, and all
of them above that are also they're just pretenders.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Right right in the Western system. But also fourteen doesn't
even get acknowledgment in some Asian elevators because it's it's
like one death.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
But isn't that funny?
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Though?
Speaker 4 (19:31):
It's another example of omission where it's like, then does
the baseline reset, Like are we just omitting a number
or a floor and then the thing above that? Like
it would honestly be not in the best interest to
the superstition to say, well, now this floor is thirteen. No,
that's not true. This floor is fourteen exactly. Thirteen doesn't
exist in this condition. Right under these conditions.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
We've further complicated it in a lot of I didn't
know if we'd get in an elevator hierarchy year, but
we've already iplicated it in a lot of big cities
across the planet where the first floor is also not
really the first floor. You know what I mean. You know,
so we're in the negative, right, it's G two P
(20:15):
two marking. We've been counting wrong the whole way. Don't
trust skyscrapers, is what we're saying here, folks. That's the
main takeaway.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
It's a really concrete example of how willing we are
to trick ourselves for some positive theoretical outcome.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Right, and for a feeling of understanding, right, for a
semblance of order, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Well, yeah, and just somehow pretending like something isn't what
it actually is so that we'll feel a little better
about it.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
The nature of superstition, hmm. Yeah. And it's also it's
also an argument that reality is determined within the internal mind.
You know. It's a very Descartes or it's a sith
Lord version of Descartes. I think therefore I am. Instead
it's saying, I think therefore all this stuff is well.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
And if I'm not mistaken, it was Descartes or one
of his you know, kind of contemporaries who had this
whole idea of like Mount Monomes or or just like
what are the things that we're actually seeing and experiencing?
Are they made up of little organic, you know, pixels basically,
and that it's all kind of a construct like this
(21:34):
table isn't really this table. It's just sort of like
a representation in the way we experience it. It's enough to
really crack your head open if if you're if you're
not careful, for sure.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, this is all these reasons we're outlining here, folks,
are uh, our part and parcel of why numerology, whatever
you want to call it, whatever system you're practicing, remains
a subject of continual fascination for humans, just like taro,
but with an extra dollar of what appears to be
(22:05):
science via mathematics. We have to ask does it really work?
And if so, should you try this at home? We're
gonna argue yes, and we're going to wonder how after
a word from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy,
(22:26):
all right, Yes, rip the band aid off, rip the
numbers off. Yes, numerology does work for various people, at
least in their own experience. Caveat asterisk fine print. Because
a lot of it is similar to taro. The attractiveness
of it comes from people's natural desire to learn more
(22:47):
about themselves. Right. It reminds me that Stephen Crane poem
about the universe. It's similar, you, guys, to how some
people a lot of people will yearn for psychics or
personality test that will tell you, especially if you pay them,
that you are full of hidden strengths and powers, I've
reinforced your deepest needs and emotions, or, in a more
(23:11):
positive note, help you reframe the way that you look
at things in yourself and in the world around you.
They're countless online outfits of all the numerology schools we
just named that are going to take very simple information
about you, your full birth name. They'll usually want your
(23:32):
birth date or both, and they'll construct a life path
reading for you. That's the Western system. These are not
based on batteries of questions like Myers Briggs or determining
an anagram. The idea is that they're deep truths about you,
invulable insight that can be entirely derived from your name
(23:56):
and from your birthday. As the theory goes, it's because
each number, especially in your birth date, has a unique
vibration which gives it certain properties. Now I want to
sound like a jerk, but you know, fine, Sure I
sounded like a jerk, Fine.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Sure, hey, but you caveat it. It so it's okay, it's.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Just you know, it's will be framing. It's people are
using it to find romantic partners. Guys.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Well, if we take it back to the instrumentation, and
let's say a string that is vibrating at a certain tone,
that we would because you could associate that with a letter, right,
like an A, A, C, A G, something like that.
But that tone the number itself, as it is going
(24:49):
up and down, there is a different vibration, right if
you're if you're talking about frequency going up and down. Yeah,
So like there are ways to connect it back to
this right where your brain can kind of do that
thing you're you're talking about there then you're describing where
you're like, Okay, I guess I kind of understand how
a letter has a representative number and that number could
have a vibration. I can understand why you might believe that.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
But again, back to the math of music. I mean
a frequency is a vibration and it's a number. Yes,
So I mean I think that utterly tracks for me anyway.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
And then but then you what is that thing guy,
simatics where you can use frequencies, like if you're playing
a certain frequency through a speaker and then you've got
sand on top of that speaker, it will actually create shape.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
One.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
There's tons of examples of those, not to mention that,
like math and the way a record works, where it's
like grooves cut into a piece of frickin' plastic that
is then interpolated, you know, into a thing that you
hear with your ears, and if you look at the grooves,
they're just concentric circles, which is just kind of boiled
down to math.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
It's weird, man. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
I know I'm oversimplifying that, but I do tend to,
you know, and even binary code and the way all
digital representations of things are boiled down to numbers. And
now that we've got digital photography and increasingly elaborate and
advanced versions of recreations of images using digital technology, that's
(26:24):
a digital recreation of a thing that was once much
more analog, but even the analog form of it is
in some ways involves math.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
It's yes, I don't think that's oversimplifying. The art of
truly understanding something is to be able to explain it
simply shout out to how stuff works.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
True, well, in a very not simple way, because I
don't have too good brains. This is what I'm imagining.
If let's say we're using somebody's name, right, and we're
translating each letter in that person's name into a number,
then each one of those numbers corresponds to let's imagine
a piano key. Okay, Now imagine if you are playing
(27:04):
that entire person's name. Every one of those corresponding piano
keys gets played at one time when you say that
person's name, and that is the tone the numerical representation
of that human's name. And I really like that concept
of is that name or that phrase or that thing
that you're you know, that you're trying to represent with
(27:26):
numbers being played on a piano and hearing all of
it at one time. That's very That's an interesting concept
to me. It's not explaining anything.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Though, Yeah, Because as pretty as it might may sou folks,
fellow conspiracy realist, there's a glaring error in this concept.
In the case of Western numerological systems, the calculations of
your name are based on a number value assigned to
the English alphabet. So the pattern goes one to nine,
(27:58):
then repeats, so a equals one B equals two up
to I equals nine, and then when you get to J,
it recycles right. It iterates, so J equals one, and
so on and so forth, all the way up to Z,
which equals eight. The issue with this is that the
English alphabet itself is not an objective truth of reality.
(28:22):
It's a thing everybody agreed on that continually, even now
in twenty twenty six, evolves over time. So at various
points in history we see massive variables, right, trade, communication, war, disease, economics,
They all influence the formation of what we call modern
(28:43):
English today. So this is a little thought experiment that
I thought we might enjoy. Guys, If we went back
in time, all the way back to the formation of language,
and we just played the simulation again with all the
dice rolls accident once more, we would almost certainly not
(29:03):
end up with the same alphabet that exists here. The
odds are statistically preposterous. So therefore, in that other world
and that other simulation, yeah I'm doing simulation theory, we
would see that the resulting numerological system, based on whatever
language evolved in that other world, it would be way
(29:25):
different from the system you, as an English speaker in
your version of the Universe Encounter today. It's worth pointing
out right. It reminds me of that excellent conversation Stephen
Colbert and Ricky Gervais had about spirituality and atheism, which
is worth looking up by hoping you see it on YouTube.
(29:46):
I don't know how's Colbert doing. Has CBS pulled his stuff?
Oh like from the internet? Yeah? Is that gonna happen?
I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
I it's hard to say.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
It could be a political keep making money on it
if they keep it up, And that's.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
A good point, and that's a deal from the topic
at hand. But I just wanted to ask you guys,
maybe this is more of a strange news question. Did
you hear about the guy that kind of took his
time slot and there's like a model where he's kind
of paying the network in order. That's fascinating. I want
to talk mac what. Yeah, it's a new model kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Like, yeah, he's like renting space from CBS.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Who is this person? And how why? I'm sorry, I
need I won't bother y' all with it. I'm going
to go into well, no, maybe we just.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
Say let's put a pin in this and talk about
it when we do strange news because I just and yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Let's figure out that guy's UH name and birth date
so we can do numerological chart analysis on them. This
will determine a person's lucky number, their life path, their
angel numbers. Recurring numbers are angel numbers. According to proponents,
these numbers will offer clues into how the world works
(30:56):
or the significance of people and events to you, the practitioner.
They may also show you numbers you should look out
for in your waking life. What's the word? Gosh?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Beta? Minhoff? Is that the phenomenon where you hear something
you see it all the time.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Where you see the things that you like just learn,
kind of like you learn a new word, you hear
a new song all of a sudden, it seems to
appear everywhere.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Right, So there's this is the pickle, and our buddy
Dan Harmon would love this. According to a lot of numerology,
or the basis of numerology, nothing happens by accident. Everything
is quantifiable. Everything happens according to the numbers in this
chaotic world. That's really comforting. And the idea does come
(31:48):
straight from Pythagoras, especially if you look at scholars who
have studied them, like Underwood Dudley, who's mentioned a lot
in the research we were doing. The author of Numeralology
or what Pythagorasts wrought Dudley makes this great argument. He says, Look,
the Pythagoreans became interested in number mysticism because they were
(32:11):
discovering incredibly fascinating real world facts about numbers. You add
up a series of odd numbers beginning with the number one,
the result is always a square number. What imagine being
the first person to figure that out? How do you
even explain that to people?
Speaker 4 (32:30):
I don't understand how anybody feared any other stuff out
like the Pythagorists of it all, And like, how do
you even wrap your head around these concepts without already
having math kind of to help you understand it? Like
how do you invent man?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (32:45):
I just don't get it. And again, I know that's
overstating the case a little bit, like because it is
an inherent thing that people just kind of pulled out
of these pre existing truths, But you still have to
have a system that you create. In order to do that,
you really have to have certain I mean, obviously they're
just very, very smart people, but the level of thinking
(33:06):
and problem solving that goes into these early, you know, innovators,
blows my mind every time.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
They were also far less distracted. They had a deep
attention economy.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
That's true. That's true.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
They didn't have to check their phone every I don't
know what the time window is for most people, but
they didn't check their phone constantly, so maybe they have
more time to think. And this I can't get past
the deep empathy here to realize how freaking astonishing and
world changing these discoveries most must have been. It was
(33:39):
one of, if not the strangest reality hacks these folks
had ever seen. So of course they're going to get
super into numbers. They're going to say, all is number.
That's the quote, and if you can measure. The idea
is that you can measure everything in reality and describe
it in quantifiable terms, in numbers, in proportions. It reminds
(34:04):
me two guys of a long time ago. I had
this great conversation with our pal Tyler Klaying, who later
went on to make a film called God of Spinoza
about how music is math.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I remember that one.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Company yeah yeah, right, elephant yeah yeah. That was a
fun one to work on. My sister was in it.
She was the starring rule.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Josh Clark was in it as well, because I couldn't
make the schedule work up by end. Sorry, Josh, yuess
we'll take Josh, then, I guess we'll take the most
famous guy.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
A very good personal memory of mine, though, that was
one of making a film. Attempting to make a feature
length film is one of the craziest things any human
can do when you don't have a budget.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Speaking of that, and again not to deround. Is so
excited that I keep hearing such good news about this
film that I loved, Obsession, which was made for seven
hundred and fifty thousand dollars and is on track to
be the most profitable movie of all time, uh, making
over two hundred and thirty five million dollars. This dude,
Curry Parker, who's like a YouTube dude doing comedy again,
I just super cool. I just wanted to shout out
(35:14):
that guy because I really loved that movie.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Rats yeah, and shout out to the young director of
back Rooms, Thank you for doing your part to save
Hollywood people.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Are loving that too. I think it's a cool yeah,
a very rising tide situation.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yes, save Hollywood for just burning it down, saybe.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Parts of Hollywood, maybe the bad park.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
I don't mean physically, let's not actually set fires. They
have a good lord that Hollywood. Yes, But the system.
The system is what I'm reflecting to.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
We've got some notes. Hollywood is what we're saying. There is, indeed,
with the idea of music being mat there is indeed
a comprehensible, complex, yet understandable nature to mathematics, and through
understanding that neat, humanity has made phenomenal strides in understanding
more about reality. So I would say, without being too
(36:09):
much like a quotable in double XL, I would say,
if God exists, math is best described as when God
wrote poetry. Yeah, I could see that.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
I also, again, I think going back to the binary code,
that's the best way I can understand it. It's like
this programming language at the heart of all of it,
and the question and then becomes it's like a chicken
or the egg thing. Obviously we know when it comes
to binary code and programming, the code came first, but
then the code was used to create a thing that
already pre existed or that people had an idea about
(36:42):
what they wanted it to be. So it's like it
does kind of become a chicken or the egg question
when it comes to like math in the.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Universe, why does numerology in the West come from Pythagorean thought? Well,
it's because Pythagoreans also sordid numbers into categories. And here,
if we're cool with it, I'd love to shout out
our legendary longtime colleague Tracy V. Wilson, writing for How
(37:11):
Stuff Works, she this is kind of complicated, guys, I'd
love some help because I can't quite put my head
around it. But she talks about the original way that
the Pythagoreans grouped numbers.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Oh, I like this a lot. Okay, I'm gonna here
you go, Tracy, I'm gonna do my best. You're ready.
Numbers like one, four, and nine are square because a
corresponding number of dots can be arranged in a perfect square.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
One mm hmm, one, three, six, and ten are triangular. Interesting,
how is one triangular? I'm genuinely confused on that.
Speaker 5 (37:52):
One.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
I understand three, I understand six. I think I understand ten. Okay,
all right, let's keep going. One, three, six, or ten
dots can be arranged into regular triangles. Two, six, and
twelve are oblong, since the corresponding number of dots form rectangles. Okay, yes,
(38:17):
I can visualize some of that. I don't understand the
one triangular thing.
Speaker 4 (38:21):
It says because triangular numbers count dots that can form
an equilateral triangle, and the nth triangular number is tn
equals n parentheses n plus one. But okay, I don't
know either.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Never mind.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
I was really hoping. I was really hoping to lay
it out for you, guys.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I found what I thought was a reasonable explanation.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
I just asked the question and an article came up.
But nah, it's not that easy, guys. You're not alone, Matt.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Yeah, you're not alone, none of us, because nu meracy
is a skill that takes a lot of work. And
what I love about these things, guys, is reading the
reading the best non math boffin explanations of this. For
the first two or three paragraphs. I don't know about you.
(39:08):
I'm usually on board. I'm like, okay, I get it, Yeah, dots,
all right, pebbles whatever. But then by the fourth or
fifth paragraph, the water gets so deep.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Yeah, I mean, the best thing I will pull out
of this description that I found is this idea that
one single dot is the smallest triangular arrangement.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
I know, talking about my gosh, all right, shout out
to every look. I'll say it because it's legal in
parts of the US. Shout shout out to everybody who's
very high as you're watching this. Thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Oh I was high on pot news. No I am, actually,
and here here it is. Maybe this is better. So
a trianglar numbers count dots in one, two, three rose
forming a triangle with one row. There's one dot. A
degenerate triangle with a single vertex.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Degenerate triangle just because your favorite.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Degenerat they've got this.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Okay, So the Pythagoreans have this pretty clever secular approach,
and we can tell from the way they're describing it
that they are using real world examples. Right, they're drawing dots,
they're moving pebbles. But along with this they also assign
non numerical, non quantifiable traits to numbers. And these determinations
(40:25):
have a lot more to do with culture and mysticism
and vibes than you know, actual math. So it's like,
think about it this way. You're looking at simple arithmetic
nine plus nine, and you say, all right, we understand
the result of nine plus nine is eighteen. But the
Pythagoreans may also put some deeper spin on this and
say nine is also an inherently good number. It's an
(40:51):
inherently masculine number. So nine plus nine is good guy
plus good guy, which means that logically eighteen is freaking
superb best guy.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Well, maybe someone can explain this mathematical magic to me.
It's one of the only things that helped me with
my times tables when I was younger, like multiples of nine,
or like things like six times nine is fifty four
and five plus four equals nine, you know, nine times
nine eighty one eight plus one equals nine times.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
You know.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
I know there's a reason inherently, but when you have
these little like tricks like that that appear, that sort
of emerge, you know, from this seeming chaos, it really
it fascinates me.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Well, yeah, that concept of nine's been in eighteen, in
particular being double plus good. That was one of the
things I found to be very interesting looking at Jamatria,
one of the older like Hebrew Jamatria, the older versions
of this, and it goes back to Assyria and like
the rulers of Assyria and being all about we need
(41:57):
to put these eighteens and these nines together into our
temples and they need to correspond with our name numbers.
And you're like, oh, what the hell it's been going
on that long.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
I imagine being there, architect and having that kickoff, meeting
with the celebrity, the ruler and then the priest, and
the priest is and you're saying, look, this is how
high we can build stuff in ancient Assyria, and they're like, okay,
but I talk with the priest and we need everything
(42:26):
to sort of nine and eighteen Okay, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Going to need to be about sixteen thousand cubits couse
of the name.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
And that's part of why in the Torah we have
such specific measurements right of different the dimensions of different things,
like the arc of the Covenant is described in detail,
and there were big questions about how much of that
was symbolic or numerologically related. I don't know if we
(42:54):
ran into that, but I do know that you ran
the numbers on some names on some names of our
fellow co host here Matt in Hebrews Jamatria.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Well see yeah, and some and some not so co hosts.
For instance, Jeffrey Edward Epstein, according to the Jamatria calculator
I found, is twenty four hundred and five. So twenty
four oh five. That's a very interesting number. Let's just
throw another one in there. I don't I don't know
his middle name, but Benjamin Netanyahoo is fifteen twenty two.
(43:26):
That's an interesting name to put in there, an interesting number,
fifteen twenty two. I'm just doing leaders right now. Donald
John Trump twelve eighty seven eighty seven. No, these don't
mean anything to me.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
What about Jesus Hubert Christ?
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Thanks, that's a good idea. We're gonna Herbert Hubert.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
That's a great question, because you and he have different vibrations.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I've never known what DH stood for. Ben This is
a learning opportunity for me as well.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Thought it was Howitzer, Yes, yes, ah, yes, Ratio other
names that begin with H. Let us know. We're going
to take a break for a word from our sponsors.
We'll be right back. We've returned again with the let's
(44:24):
pursue these concurrently right branch to fronts. In Pythagorean numerical tradition,
odd numbers are masculine. That's why we just called nine
a dude. And sorry, nine even numbers are feminine. This
is related to what we talk about in the past, uh, anthropomorphization.
It's the human obsession with assigning human perspective to non
(44:49):
human things, concepts, or events. Later in humanity you see
vestiges of this, like how certain languages will call some
nouns inherently feminine or masculine, you know what I mean.
Spanish and French would be very easy examples of this.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Even an odd I've always been fascinated by that concept,
and like even and even again back in music, Sorry,
this is just my big, my best frame of reference.
There are even and odd frequencies that have different characteristics.
I just think is so cool that, like, you know,
we're talking about vibrations, we're talking about numbers having this
inherent energy, and I think the best and most fun
(45:28):
way to kind of understand that is through music, which
is just vibrations that are then assigned value, you know,
numerically speaking, So even in odd frequencies, they very much
have distinct qualities.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
And the assignation of value right, right, that's the big
part of this. It reminds us of the early days
of alchemy, right, chemical interactions were discovered. Chemical interactions there
are still used to date, but they were phrased in
spiritual meat. So the Pythagoreans huge strides in learning about arithmetic,
(46:03):
mathematics and numbers, and they immediately said, okay, we figured
out something crazy. What else could this mean? And then,
being human, they said, how can we make it more
about us? Right in the world in which we live?
I'm kidding, but the main thing is to be fair.
There is no current evidence that Pythagoras ever thought he
(46:27):
could analyze his disciples personalities by assigning numbers to the
letters of their names or their dates of birth. There's
no evidence that he thought that.
Speaker 4 (46:36):
The name thing throws me because name seems very uh,
what's the word I'm looking for? Arbitrary? You know, I mean,
I know there are things like nominal determinism and all
these concepts, but like date of birth, if I were
to go out for some kind of woo woo, you know,
version of things, I could see how that would maybe
be more aligned with the stars or the universe. But
(46:57):
the name is like chosen based on kind of preference,
like aesthetic, you know, the tastes of the parents. So
I just I don't know if that would necessarily be
something that I could believe would have a numerical some
sort of like significance. But the date of birth I
could get. And we also know that I think some
of the more I guess convincing wu wu astrological kind
(47:20):
of stuff the birthday books, there's some really neat stuff
in those that really do seem to align and like
a lot of the astrology of it all, you can
definitely pull out some things that seem to have meaning,
whether it's the bet or minehoff you know of it all,
or just the confirmation bias. That's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
That's exactly two quick responses with that. When first off,
there are some notable languages where numerology kind of already exists,
like in like some Hebrew names do have of course
matria baked into them, but then.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
That's because they're thinking about that in advance, and they're
signing that based on a series of options or like
cultural significance. Yes, I got it.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Yeah, And the second point would be that not all
countries practice the same calendar, and not all countries or cultures,
I should say, right, the birth date the same way.
So does the order of save month, day year or
your day month or whatever mix up you want to have.
Does that determine something different? Right?
Speaker 4 (48:21):
Like in Europe they do day first, then month than year,
which makes way more So, it does make more sense,
but it also can really throw you off. I don't
know if I told you guys this. I was in
Berlin just before COVID restrictions were lifted, and I showed
them my sad, little dog eared vaccine card and because
of the way my birthday was listed, they thought that
I hadn't gone the vaccine like recently enough, and they
(48:44):
like wouldn't let me into this place. And then we
have this whole moment where we had to realize we
finally got on the same page of like, no, no,
this is just like a difference in convention.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
And the Pythagoreans had to realize this. I mean, let's
think about it. They're a group of brilliant people to
logically understand that different cultures were already using different alphabets
and calendars at this time in history, not everybody agreed
on what year it was, and by the way, we
still have several different calendars going today. They knew it
(49:15):
would be a fool's errand to assume that all cultures,
despite their own history, spiritual systems, unique languages, it'd be
foolish to assume they would all have the same results
from one size fits all numerology. But it's still again
to me, I hope to all of us, it's understandable
(49:35):
that the Pythagoreans in particular would have said math is
the closest thing to a universal language, so we can
find deeper meaning. We've already proven some crazy stuff about triangles.
What else is there to find? Let's look into it? Right,
it makes sense, it does.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
I think. So I get so frustrated because I'm having
thoughts about everything you guys just talked about for a
while there, and I'm it's I think it might be
impossible for me to wrap my head around some of this,
because I get internally frustrated and kind of angry at
myself for believing a thing for a moment, and then
(50:16):
because I'm like, oh, it could be more skeptical, and
then then I truly do feel like, oh, I kind
of see how that works, and yeah, but I'm going
in a circle. It's very circular for me because I
don't want to let myself believe something that I feel
strongly is not real. I don't know, man. I wonder
(50:40):
how people today, because I know it is still a
very popular thing. You can go online and find a
ton of different place to calculate these different things in
all the different forms, right in all the different versions
of numerology and jamatry and stuff that goes way way back.
People are using these sites. There are advertisements on the
websites that are clearly going out to people. There's money
(51:03):
being made. I just wonder, did you guys see that
show of the rehearsal, Yes, the first season. Do you
remember there was a guy who was gonna like go
on a date and then pretend to be the boyfriend
slash husband of a woman who wanted to be a mom.
(51:24):
Do you remember this at all?
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Idea it goes deep?
Speaker 2 (51:28):
Yeah, Well, I think about that guy when I think
about numerology in general. That dude pops up in his
car pointing things out and talking about the numbers of
all the things that he's watching. As they're driving, and
I in my maybe I'm wrong, but in my mind
I'm like, oh gosh, this is dumb. But maybe that's
just being too judgmental.
Speaker 6 (51:50):
But ORS right there with you, No, it is that
because it's one of these things too, where when you
it's like a way of like what's the worling for,
like overplaying your kind of hand in a way like
if you lean too hard, and like this is the
end all be all, and I need the numbers to
match up.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
You're gonna be spinning your wheels, you know, for the
rest of your life. But if you can use it
like as a guiding principle or as some kind of
like the way people maybe use certain parts of religion
or whatever, I could see how it could be useful
as a some sort of guide or some sort of
check in, you know, like a sort of spiritual quality.
But at the end of the day, we're just trying
(52:28):
to assign values to what's ultimately happenstance, intuition, and serendipity.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Well, I think they go, yeah, I see what you're saying.
My wonder here, guys, is if there is some kind
of deeper secret meaning that is being lost on me
because you go back to some of the old Jamatrius stuff.
I'm I'm seeing essentially writing that in my mind is saying,
(52:53):
these numbers allow you, if you do it right, and
if you can calculate things and see the world and
words and everything in this way through Jamatria, you can
see the secret hidden part of the world and life
and humans and actions if you do it right, as
in it's the know very toss thing concept, but it's
(53:17):
through numbers.
Speaker 4 (53:17):
Well, couldn't we argue that like algorithms, and let's call
it machine learning or large language models or whatever, at
a certain point are really really advanced interpretations of patterns,
which is just you know, a way that you can,
you know, use numbers to describe things and to be predictive.
Like isn't that what that is just with more specificity
(53:41):
and more precision and just given like more data, Like
isn't data numerology in a way, Like it's just like
taking numbers and feeding them into the right system and
then getting a result that that is the product of
analyzing representations of events and people's preference says, and you know,
smushing it all together into this giant you know, numerical
(54:04):
kind of stew and then at the end of it
you can, with some accuracy, begin to predict the future.
I don't know, man, maybe I'm being too flippant about it,
but I just to me, it's like what they were
trying to describe with numerology and a lot of this
stuff back in the day. I feel like we're approaching
a place where it's its own kind of oracle.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
I even saw the thing about Abjod. I think, I
think that's how you say it, Abjod numbers numerals. Ben,
did you see this with the Arabic system that was
againly ancient. Yeah, doing kind of the same thing, but
not really.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
It's yeah, it's interesting, right because a lot of people,
a great many people, and some of you fellow conspiracy realists,
have found comfort in modern numerological systems or in ancient
systems that are non Western. The thing is, it reminds
me of reading your horoscope in newspapers back when those
(55:05):
were a thing. The current numerological systems that you're most
likely to encounter, they're going to come off pretty sanitized.
You are not going to get a life number that says, whoops,
you're doomed. Buckaroo you're getting a heart attack at twenty five. Instead,
you'll get something that says, again, it's like the astrolog
loose astrological sun sign charts. It's gonna say, here are
(55:28):
your core tendencies, some strengths, some weaknesses. And this reminds
me this might have been a little before your time.
Little but Matt, do you remember when I got obsessed
with a Mesoamerican astrology and we ran the numbers, and
their predictions are not sanitized. They will say stuff like,
(55:50):
you have a bad number, you must have done something
terrible in your past life, you were doomed, you were
f uc beeped. They would uh, that's my I'm trying
new beeps. Uh that that is a version of the unsanitized,
unlike warm, fuzzy stuff that you can see. And some
(56:11):
numerological systems still practice that. But you know, you always
have to ask, right, Real science is not sanitized. Real
science will give you disturbing answers. If this stuff is
just like go you, then is it science? Is it factual? Well?
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Is it even that helpful? Because for me, the only
way a fortune is gonna be helpful is if I'm
gonna it's gonna help me with the bad stuff, right,
if it's just big upping me when I learn my
fortune or I learn some something that might happen, like, well, great,
something good's gonna happen. Yeay, I want to know when
(56:51):
the tree is gonna fall on me, so uh, hook
me up please if we're doing this, I like that
version of it, Ben, the one, the one you were
obsessed with.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
Same oh man, Yeah, and shout out to my best
human friend who got a bad number in meso America
meso America belief systems. Corey. If you're listening, I'm glad
you're okay.
Speaker 2 (57:12):
Oh no, we know what happened to Corey. Poor guy,
Poor guy.
Speaker 3 (57:18):
We should also mention, though, as we alluded to earlier,
and I love this setup as we're as we're wrapping up,
numerology can also have a dark side. It could be
misused in a number of ways. I'm thinking, in particular,
going back to the conversation about serial killers right or
evil leaders. Numerologist, especially in the recent past, would make
(57:43):
great claims or great to do about taking the name
and birthday of, say, a serial murderer like Ted Bundy.
But I almost called Tim Bundy. If there's a Tim
Bundy of the crowd, So that was his kinder, gentler,
younger brother, Tim right right. He was more into fly fishing,
so did the killer Macromea. And I guess fly fishing
(58:06):
is a different kind of serial killing.
Speaker 4 (58:08):
That's true, that's true, a little more acceptable socially, a
little more socially acceptable.
Speaker 3 (58:13):
So they would look sick waiter boots, right, they would
look at Ted Bundy, and they would explore this personality
or these actions through the lens of their numerological system.
The problem here is the analyst already knew which crimes
have been committed. In the case of Bundy, they already
knew his name, his birthday, and they knew a lot
(58:34):
about his life. So when they derived associated numbers from
their respective systems, they were able to retroactively rationalize their
findings and fit their interpretation into whatever we already knew
about the killer, and add to whatever they wanted the
supposed credibility of numerology to be as a whole. Side note,
(58:57):
I know some of us already know this numerology. We're
also actively analyzing letters from the Zodiac killer. Do you
guys remember this part?
Speaker 4 (59:06):
M hm? Not not with the degree of specificity that
you do.
Speaker 5 (59:11):
I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (59:12):
I mean people are desperate for answers. That's the side note.
It's important for us to mention this as well. One
issue with numerology. It's not unique, but it can be
misused when people are experiencing a cognitive crisis or mentally unwell.
This brings us to a not uncommon phenomenon for people
(59:33):
with certain mental issues. We've heard of delusions of grandeur,
but they're also what we call delusions of reference or
referential delusions. This is when you start to believe that everyday, people, places, events,
objects hold personal significance for your life despite no logical
connection to you. Right a pop star is making these songs,
(59:56):
and these songs coded messages to me. See the number
you know one seventy three everywhere, and that means something
that is a hidden truth that only I recognize. In
those situations, belief in an occultic symbolism of numbers or
combinations thereof, it can lead to self harm or harm
(01:00:18):
to others. So if you or someone you know is
getting a little too engrossed in patterns, getting a little
too like the movie Pie, if they think no one
else can see or understand what's really going on, it
might be time to look for professional assistance. I know
that's a bummer point, but I feel like it's important
for us to make it well.
Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
Yeah, much as much like there's that condition of being
kind of numbers blind, there are people that can develop
obsessions with numbers or literally where you look to your
point bent, where you see numbers everywhere, And I think
that is speaking to a human relationship with numbers and
the meaning that we ascribe to them, and how it
(01:00:58):
can become this kind of point of focus. Especially, you know,
I always think of like a beautiful mind and like
the gift of the dude, like drawing the formulas, you know,
on the clear piece of glass, like with a grease
marker or a grease pencil. Like there's a certain madness
and order in numbers. And it made me think of
(01:01:18):
the idea too, of randomness, and like true randomness, the
idea of like random numbers generators, and there's all kinds
of fascinating methods and scientific techniques for generating true random
and what that even means, I don't know. It's all
just it's kind of all mind blowing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
I know.
Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
I keep saying that but when you bring up the
whole yeah, falling down that rabbit hole and becoming obsessed
with numbers that we've seen kind of dramatize so much
in movies like that Jim Carrey one with the number,
whatever the number is because I couldn't possibly remember it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Or pie number twenty three.
Speaker 4 (01:01:52):
That's the one. Wasn't that your number?
Speaker 5 (01:01:54):
Matt? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
No, no.
Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Ooh, numbers thirty two, twenty three, read it, it's in
your bible.
Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
What we're saying is, ultimately, numerology is fun, and of
course it's fascinating. Math always is, but our key words
for any numerological explanation, experience encounter should be the following fun, entertainment, curiosity.
If you ever feel the numbers are telling you, quote
(01:02:28):
unquote to do something unreasonable, please please, please, on our behalf,
get a second opinion before you do anything rash. I mean,
that's pretty much it for us tonight, folks. Can you
count on numerology really quickly?
Speaker 4 (01:02:41):
But I did find the term for what you were
just describing, and it is so similar to the mathematical
blindness that I was mentioning earlier. It is called a rhythmomania,
or also numeromania a less common synonym referring to numerology
specifically and an obsession with it, but it describes a
compulsive preoccupation with numbers and counting, and often as a
(01:03:05):
symptom of or a subtype of obsessive compulsive disorder.
Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Yeah, so that's our question. Can you count on numerology? Sure,
as long as we think of it as a psychological tool,
a need activity, an interesting diversion. But it's just like
counting the old trope of counting flower pedals, like she
loves me, she loves me, not he loves me. He
loves me not. A person's name and birth date alone
(01:03:31):
is not scientifically proven to confirm whether or not they're
your soulmate. And you are something that cannot be quantified,
you as you cannot be put into numbers. We can
explain so much of outside reality through chemistry and physics
and math, but your inner life, you, specifically you, it's indefinable.
(01:03:52):
It's unique. And that's beautiful. You know. I don't think
you need numbers to explain it.
Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
You're so beautiful, and that's for sure. What the numbers say,
that's just can't bring you.
Speaker 5 (01:04:06):
They can.
Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
It's called numeromania or taxis or taxi can bring you down.
We'd love to hear your thoughts. Folks. Thank you so
much for counting down some time with us. Your time
counts very much. We'd love to be a part of it.
Please find us on the lines, call us on a phone.
You can always send us an email.
Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
If you want to find us on the interwebs, you
can do so at the handle conspiracy stuffer conspiracies I
have showed depending on which social media platform you you
get into.
Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
Hey, yes, we have a phone number. It is one
eight three three st d w y t K. When
you call in and give yourself a cool nickname and
let us know if we can use your name and
message on one of our listener mail episodes that show
up in the audio feeds all across the interwebs. Everything
all the time, A little bit of everything all the time.
(01:04:55):
Find it when you call in. Let us know what
your Jamatria number is.
Speaker 5 (01:05:00):
Is.
Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Palm Beach Petez is three hundred interesting? Interesting?
Speaker 4 (01:05:05):
Who is this Palm Beach Pete.
Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
I don't know. Look it up. It's it's Jeffrey Epstein,
but it's not, but it's not what it is but
it's not. Kind of like the numbers thing. We also
have an email address. Please send us a message.
Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet ut afraid. Sometimes the
void rags so three two, one forty three. Find us
out here in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 5 (01:05:37):
My numbers two.
Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
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