May 28, 2026 • 58 mins
War is an ugly, abhorrent thing--and it's been with humanity since the dawn of our species. While the practice itself is chock-full of conspiracy, corruption and horror, one aspect of war is often ignored: the practice of forcing children to participate. In today's episode, the guys dive into the disturbing stories of children forced into conflict--how the children are taken, how they are indoctrinated, and what happens afterward.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fellow conspiracy realist. This classic episode is coming to now
because we had a brief conversation about this in either
a recent Strange News segment or a more recent episode.
But in twenty twenty one, we looked into a conspiracy,
an ongoing global tragedy, the practice of forcing children to
(00:23):
behave as soldiers.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yep, when you need someone to hold an ak and
aim it at places. I guess for some folks it
doesn't matter which hands those are.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yeah, I mean it's you know. It's the classic case
of targeting the most vulnerable and malleable in the most
callous and despicable way possible. Ugly and abhorrent, I believe
is what the metadata here says, and I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
This episode may not be appropriate for all listeners, but
we do feel it's important, So thank you for tuning in.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
(01:13):
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul Mission Control decands most importantly, are you
You are here and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. We're beginning today's episode with a disclaimer.
Our discussion today contains descriptions of violence against children, and
(01:51):
as such, it may not be suitable for all listeners.
Today we're examining war. It's one of humanity's continual curses.
It's a shadow that's followed this species for the entirety
of its existence, possibly before you know, war may predate
Homo sapiens, and we're just talking about group armed conflict.
(02:11):
The first war that is like acknowledged universally occurs in
Mesopotamia in twenty seven hundred BCE, and since then, some
kind of conflict has occurred in every single era of history,
on every part of the populated globe. It continues today.
It's a horrific thing. We know. We have people in
(02:32):
the audience listening with us today who have experienced the
horrors of armed conflict firsthand. And today we're focusing on
something that often doesn't get examined as much as it should,
or often gets examined through a Western slant, and that's
children in conflict, not as bystander. It's not as innocent
(02:53):
in the background, but as soldiers. So here are the facts.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
So what exactly is that child soldier? I mean, it's
pretty much what it sounds like. Technically, it's a soldier.
So it's also like the term soldier makes it a
little misleading because oftentimes.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
They're part of gorilla groups.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
They're not like exactly going through the proper channels of
like training in the way like a US military member might.
But it's a soldier anyone who is under the age
of eighteen who is quote recruited or used by an
armed force or armed group in any capacity. So this
is like a wide swath here. And this doesn't just
mean direct fighting. They can also be used in other roles,
(03:33):
as you know, couriers, spies, human shields, suicide bombers, or
even cooks, like actually just helping kind of the logistical
day to day of like.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Keeping up an armed force.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
And they can and oftentimes are victims of sexual exploitation.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I just wanted to jump in really quickly to talk
about a couple other roles. One of the big things
that we learned about was in the Revolutionary War and
War's passed when drums were used very commonly on battlefields
by varying armies as a way to communicate things at
far distances. So a commander would communicate something to a drummer,
(04:13):
and it would usually be a child. A lot of
times it would be a child, not always who would
then communicate that across a battlefield. And those children weren't
fighting necessarily, but they were no less in danger than
anyone who was wielding a gun.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Right, Yeah, And there are numerous other support roles, such
as porters just carrying stuff, often because you are threatened
with physical injury or death if you do not. You
do want to say, obviously the people in the audience
are thinking the same thing that the use of drums
to organize large groups of people over areas, especially during conflict,
(04:53):
is by no means restricted to the Revolutionary War. Drum
communication is itself an ancient art of communication that I
think was it didn't originate with world militaries, but was
what was adopted by world militaries because it is so efficient.
(05:14):
It's also it's also part of the reason why in
the era of chattel slavery in the United States, drums
were often forbidden possessions because enslaved people could use them
to communicate over distance. So it's it's a powerful thing.
And I know it's a tangent, but it is a
powerful thing.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Now it is. It's a really good point.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
But it also makes me think of like you know,
as far back as like you know, Roman militaries or
they would create these crazy formations and these failanxes and
drums would often be used to indicate which formation they
should assume.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And one thing I love about the Revolutionary War example
there that you bring up met is that it gives
lie to the stereotypes that are implied in much of
Western media. You know, the practice of forcing children into
combat and some capacity is not restricted to any particular
region or country nor time. Children are, as we speak,
(06:11):
recruited in areas across the world by armed non state actors,
by which I mean groups outside of government control, as
well as by state supported armed forces. The non state
armed groups are, it is important to note, are more
likely than state supported groups to use children in direct
(06:35):
armed conflict. We say non state groups, we mean things
like militias, terrorist organizations, secessionist groups and so on. And
right now, you know it is proven that this stuff
is happening as we record this, as you listen today.
But the next question is how many child soldiers exist?
(06:55):
And if you can already see how the definition goes
beyond direct armed cons inflict, it's very difficult to get
a good estimate of how many how many children are
victimized in this way.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yes, And estimates on the number of child soldiers out
there in the world really does vary. It depends on
the definition. Really, that's what we're talking about here. If
we only count children in direct combat, that's one thing.
If we include any kind of supporting roles, that's another thing. Also,
it's awfully difficult to get true numbers out of from
(07:31):
a lot of places and to get militaries to actually
tell you the numbers of children that are at play here.
But there as many as two hundred and fifty thousand
child soldiers right now in at least twenty countries. That's
a staggering number. Two hundred and fifty thousand.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's a higher end estimate too. That's one of the
ones that includes support roles.
Speaker 5 (07:52):
I believe it is.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
If you look back throughout history, you can find reports
that during the World War One, conflict the First Great War,
there were around two hundred and fifty thousand child soldiers
allegedly a part of Europe's armies, like the Western armies,
And it's just to think that that many children are
(08:15):
still somehow being forced into one of these roles, or
it's sometimes not forced, but almost always forced.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Have either of you guys seen the movie from twenty
fifteen called.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
The Beasts of No Nation?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yes, I actually haven't seen.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I really love the director, Carrie Fukunaga, but I know
it's about like training a child, like an orphan, as
a child soldier in Africa during a conflict there, like
with a war lord kind of situation, which is kind
of why I was saying, like it's such a wide
swath because it is obviously exploitation, and oftentimes it's like
an opportunity for these kids to like have some kind
(08:52):
of support and some kind of community at the cost
of absolutely being exploited. You can speak to the film
more been since you've actually seen it, but I know
it did really well and it was pretty beloved, and
it's supposed to be a bit of a a series,
you know, hit you right in the fields kind of situation.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And we will explore recruitment processes indoctrination is a better word,
I believe, and how this takes place. If we look
at the wide margin of estimations, we see one of
the lower end ones is the you in verification of
(09:29):
certain cases, so you in verification is corroborated, it's proven.
You know that we have identified this specific individual and
we have identified what happened to them when and how,
And in that regard they verify thirty thousand cases. That's
and still even by that metric, which is very has
(09:51):
a lot of constraints. That the number of child soldiers
has doubled since twenty twelve, more than doubled, it's risen
one hundred fifty nine percent. This is not a vestigial
practice from days gone by. Child Soldiers International which is
an NGO seeking to end this practice, so obviously they
(10:14):
have an agenda at play. In twenty seventeen, this institution
estimated that there were possibly more than one hundred thousand
children in state level and non state military orgs around
the world. Either way you look at it, whichever numbers
you wish to use, it's inarguable this is a situation
(10:35):
involving thousands and thousands of kids. They're kids who often
have fallen through the cracks of the local government or
community systems in place, and it can be very difficult
to track them because the forces that use these kids
obviously don't always keep paperwork on them or documentation, because
(10:55):
that would be hard proof of, you know, war crimes.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
The big question is how to we get here, and like,
what is the history of children in combat? We've mentioned
a few things, but it is it's safe to say
that younger people in combat has been a practice that's
gone on for as long as war has existed, and
as we said, that goes well back into the BC years,
(11:20):
the BCE years. A lot of times, as we mentioned already,
a feature film that was made about the subject, the
concept of a child sold soldier has been romanticized to
an extent. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's put
in a positive light, but it's definitely told through fictional
stories or you know, based on nonfiction stories.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Many times, yeah, I would say there is romanticization, especially
when we're looking at idealized or airbrushed versions of past events,
events that occurred while no one living today was alive.
Seems to be one of the big cutoffs. Uh, then
it's it's in stark contrast to the way this practice
(12:06):
is portrayed in the modern day and amid other other cultures. Right,
like if it's it's odd that the drummer boy of
the Revolutionary War the Civil War is off is sometimes
seen as as a much prettier story than it actually is,
or think of think of it. You know. Another romanticized
(12:28):
trope is the idea, at least in the West, of
underage boys lying about their age to gain entry into
military service. Right. And it's something that we see uh
time and time again in film and fiction. You know,
even even to the point where a doctor or authority
who's assessing a would be recruit knows their line and
(12:51):
kind of gives them like a nod and a wink.
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Uh, well, because they needed everyone they could get, right,
so it like it behoved them to look the other way.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Well, yeah, that was the British Forces. There's a documentary
I was watching in preparation for this where there are
actual World War One soldiers who were children at a time,
fifteen sixteen who did sign up and it wasn't it
wasn't as though they were forced they wanted to go,
and they wanted to sign up, and they wanted to
fight in the Great War. And a lot of it
(13:21):
had to do with propaganda that was put out by
military leaders about we need you, and they would try
and sign up. They knew they weren't able to sign up,
but they did it anyway and lied about their age.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
And this isn't restricted to the First World War. Napoleon
used teenagers in his army. This is a pretty common practice,
and on both sides of both World Wars, child soldiers
existed and often, you know, as you said, they've been
(13:54):
they've been indoctrinated by propaganda. So when we look at
the modern child soldier, we have to ask ourselves, why
would commanders or people in authority who were adults, why
would they continue to use underage like use children as soldiers.
(14:15):
There's a guy named Peter W. Singer who argues that
part of this can be traced to the proliferation of
light automatic firearms, which is an interesting point that a
lot of people you know, don't consider light firearms of
this nature can be carried and used by children. This
(14:36):
makes them more viable in direct combat than they perhaps
were in days of yore when guns were heavier, or
when they had to use weapons that maybe require the
strength of an adult, you know what I mean, very
like longbows or large sorts.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Another big reason is things like overpopulation and scarce resources
and absolutely crippling poverty that would make, uh, this seem
like a.
Speaker 5 (15:06):
Valid alternative to that kind of life.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Again, like I was saying earlier, like just the need
for any kind of support at the cost of you know,
being absolutely exploited. Some leaders of various arm groups argue
that using children is a positive because they're fearless in
battle because they haven't been taught otherwise and they don't
have the same experience with like self preservation.
Speaker 5 (15:30):
You know. That's like this is not exactly the same thing.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
But like small children are fearless often like they're they're
they're willing to take risks because they haven't had time
to learn from their mistakes yet.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
They haven't had that touched the stove get burned.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Exactly, and this is something that is absolutely exploited.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Well even if they even if they have something like that,
they still don't have that fear of death then under
that true understanding of finality of what it is and
especially if they grew up religious. Then there's this, there's
just there's a lot to be exploited there in the
minds of the child.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Not to mention that they're still developing and maturing mentally,
and they're just a lot more easy to take advantage
of or to especially under the guise of like a
helping hand. Of course, I'll do whatever you want me
to do. You're you're keeping me from starving to death,
you're giving me a place to sleep. So this is
also heavily exploited.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And there's another thing here that's been reported is that
child soldiers would sometimes be used to confuse the enemy
and to make the enemy feel less inclined to fire
back at a child. Psychological warfare that is coming at them,
even with a bayoneted rifle or you know, within within
an assault rifle. When there's a child coming at you
(16:44):
with that, it does something to you.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Can you imagine.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
I mean, it's just like talk about disregarding like basic
rules of engagement or whatever this is out you're right, Ben,
it's absolutely psychological warfare. Not to mention, they're cheaper to
maintain than fully grown soldiers. They don't need as much,
and they you know, they're small, they can get into
tight spaces and things like that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I do want to point out this is this is
something that I dove into years ago for car stuff,
of all things. We're doing an episode about what the
driving age should be. Right. We've got a lot of
folks in the audience who are you know, who just
(17:24):
heard like fifteen or sixty eight and you're going to
get your license if there's not a pandemic in the US.
And we've got a lot of people who are parents
of kids who are turning driving age right, and there
there's been this, you know, back and forth for a
long time about what the appropriate age is for a
kid to have a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle.
(17:45):
It turns out that your brain and your your faculties
aren't really fully developed until you're about twenty five. So
if we say that someone needs to be an adult
before they can drive, then you would be getting your
license at twenty five, which is just not going to fly.
(18:06):
And we're bringing this up because this gives you a
sense of how much growing children's brains still have to do,
you know, when they're fourteen, or when they're as young
as eight years old. This means that even if these
kids feel that they are taking an opportunity and feel
(18:28):
that they're volunteering, they may not have the cognitive development
such that we could consider this informed consent. Does that
make sense?
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Does?
Speaker 6 (18:42):
So?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
We are about to dive into some incredibly disturbing stories, folks,
but we believe they are important and we believe people
need to know about them. Again, what follows may not
be suitable for all listeners, so we're going to pause
for a word from our response ans and will return
in a moment. Here's where it gets crazy recruitment tactics
(19:13):
with hard air quotes around those. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And the reason that we've got those there is because
this is many times often not a consensual process between
the child and whoever whatever person or organization is doing
that recruitment. Some children are fully abducted and taken from
either families or whatever living situation they are in. Some
(19:37):
are threatened, families are threatened. Sometimes sometimes the children themselves,
if they're alone, are coerced into joining by being offered
things that they don't have available to them if they
weren't going to go with this person or group, things
like drugs, money, even just other things like a place
(19:58):
to sleep and a group to be with. Almost almost
like we've discussed before in the recruitment tactics of gangs,
very similar stuff going on here.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Or sometimes cults, as we'll see. And then there's also
a very rational decision or a very rational threat, which is
you have to join us because we will protect you
against the other people right who are also coming to
your rural area to wage war. So after this initial
(20:37):
process whatever you want to call it, recruitment, kidnapping, coortion
of some sort, after this begins the indoctrination process because
they have these young, malleable minds. One of the most
well known recent examples of this practice, especially in the States,
comes from the infamous Joseph Coney is still at large.
(21:02):
Longtime listeners, we've been doing this show for a while,
you may recall. In twenty twelve, there was an awareness
campaign called Cony twenty twelve that went viral. There were
also a lot of criticisms about this campaign, the primary
one being that people were becoming clicktivist, which is a
(21:23):
portmanteau meaning someone who confuses liking a post with doing
something about a cause, doing something to support a cause
they care about or oppose a problem. Right, do you
guys remember when Cony twenty twelve it is out?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I do, Joseph Coney, leader of that thing called the
Lord's Resistance Army. You know, honestly, I didn't remember much
about that until I've reread some of it. All I
remembered was Cony twenty twelve, and like the basic concept,
but no specifics about the atrocities or what was going on.
It's interesting how when it becomes such a slogan and
(22:03):
an icon, just you know those things put together. Cony
twenty twelve, that's what you remember, because you know the
posts a lot of times would just be that.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Cony twenty twelve.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Remember, and there is that documentary by Invisible Children. Everybody
agrees this is an imborant practice, but we need to
understand how it works. And the LRA is one of
the organizations of which outsiders have intimate knowledge because of
(22:35):
the accounts of survivors. We have first hand accounts. So
for more than two decades, the LRA kidnapped an estimated
thirty thousand children from northern Uganda. So think about that again.
The UN has thirty thousand verified cases. They said the
(22:55):
LRA kidnapped an estimated thirty thousand. You see how the
numbers get. It's fuzzy, it's difficult to track. But we
do know that the LRA force these children into military
service and they brainwash them. If you check out our
YouTube video on how cults work, you'll recognize a lot
of commonalities here. First, they instill existential fear. If you're
(23:21):
a child who has been kidnapped by the LRA, they're
not just telling you that they'll kill you if you
try to escape. They're telling you that the communities you
try to escape too, like go if you try to
run back home, if you have a home to go to. Still,
they're telling the kids that the community they escape to
will also murder them in various unspeakable ways. But in
(23:45):
the case of the LRA, and even more in cities
think about this is it's not true Cony's opponents do
not kill child soldiers, but the kids have no way
to know that.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Yeah, no, for sure, the othering factor really plays a
big part. I was reading up a little bit, and
I think it's speculated that that film I was talking about,
Beasts of No Nation, is somewhat loosely based on Coney
it's sort of meant to be sort of like a
amorphous African country that they don't name it. But it's
very similar to the types of tactics we're talking about here.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, and you know, on top of that, after you've
gotten in their heads that way already, one of the
practices though again we've talked about before, would be to
remove the sense of self, the identity from the child's mind,
to restrict things from them that would remind them of home,
of their culture, of their family. There's an example that
(24:42):
you have here been of the calabash gourd, which is
I believe used as a ceremonial instrument in Uganda, and
it's something that would be very common for a child
growing up there in northern Uganda. But then the l
RA specifically restricts this and forbids any use of this chord.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Yeah, it's all it's all kind of textbook like cult
leader type behavior too, like the separation, the isolation, the
you know, the kind of insular situation and almost like
having their own terms separating people from their own culture
and their own family. A lot of the same kind
of tactics. It seems like that the cult recruiters use.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Which again, you know, I don't say this all the time,
but the video we mentioned earlier that presents this stuff
does hold up because these rules don't really change. These
tactics don't change. They evolve with stuff like social media
and so on, but it's still the same process.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Other activities are forbidden that give that sense of self
Whispering is forbidden because that gives that is seen as
a sign of plotting. And then from the cult perspective,
one of the first things you do is remove privacy,
remove agency. The commanders also and the children participate in homicide.
(26:03):
One former child soldier reported they would say things like quote,
if you didn't want to kill, are you not one
of us? Please come forward and kill. It's not only
normalized by the LRA and organizations like it, it's also
the only way to ensure your favor in the eyes
(26:24):
of the commanders. It's the only way to get promoted,
and in many cases it's the only way not to
be punished, especially in the beginning when you haven't been
traumatized and desensitized. This also includes situations where children have
been forced to participate in the murder of members of
(26:45):
their own community, including relatives, neighbors, siblings' parents, and Coney himself.
If this is a cult, Coney is the leader. I
was recently rewatching Apocalypse Now, the Redux version, which as
you guys know, is based on a novel called The
(27:05):
Heart of Darkness. Kurts in the Heart of Darkness or
Kerdel Kurts in Apocalypse Now are treated as these demi
gods by the population that they have exerted dominion over
and Coney. Coney does similar things. He teaches his army
(27:30):
that he is like a god, that he has spiritual powers.
And part of this is because the LRA is an
offshoot of an earlier non military group called the Holy
Spirit Movement. It was a religious group, So he's got
that they're all already kind of spiritual roots here. They
(27:51):
believe he has powers, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Yes, In fact, Cony absolutely pushed this whole narrative. He
claimed that he could speak with spirits and that all
of the LRA actions were justified because they can of
were handed down from on high in some way in
the name of religion. And Cony also claims that Tipou
Malange here first to as the Holy Spirit is protecting
(28:15):
him and keeping him safe and his followers, and that
he is essentially communicating with him to let him know
who has bad intentions towards him, so that he can
actually read the intentions of his enemies and get inside
their heads with this kind of like spiritual intervention. And
also that the spirits of those of fighters who have
(28:37):
been killed will one day return to kill their perpetrators
if the fighters attempt to escape. So it's also like
a malevolent quality to this of like, you know, vengeful
spirits coming back for revenge from beyond the grave, right, like, uh,
you have your.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Child, you're a child. You've been forced to kill someone
in the indoctrination process. Not only have you killed this person,
but now you are told that the spirit of the
person you killed will come find you if you try
to escape. Now you owe a debt to the LRA.
(29:19):
And in addition to these sticks, the group dangles a
carrot future power and wealth. We succeed in overthrowing the government,
Cony said, every soldier, regardless of their rank, will be
rewarded with very high rank in the military, and they'll
also get a lot of material wealth. These, of course,
(29:43):
are lies. Obviously a former child soldier of the LRA,
who is identified as Edward in an interview, share the
story of his abduction, his indoctrination, and his eventual escape
with the Guardian the British outlet. And he is distinct
(30:06):
because he became relatively close to Joseph Coney himself, and
so that's why we have such an understanding of the LRA.
We can tell you a little bit about his story. Again,
this hasn't happened to every victim of this practice, but
(30:26):
there are a lot of commonalities here and they are
it's just it's terrible.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
So here is kind of the story of this child
soldier Edward. He was kidnapped at the age of thirteen, abducted,
and he tells it like this, in the middle of
the night, the rebels came and surrounded our homes. Until then,
I had never heard the sound of a gunshot. That's
an interesting detail. The rebels captured dozens of boys, the
(30:55):
youngest of whom was around eight years old.
Speaker 5 (30:59):
Oh my god. This yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
This person also reported that one of the neighbor children
who was there, who got caught up in everything, was
forced to murder his own parents.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
I mean, talk about the ultimate act of disconnecting, right,
It's like, first of all, it's like a show of
like loyalty, you'll do this for me. And also now
where I'm your parents now you know, I mean, good God.
Speaker 5 (31:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And in such a swift and brutal way, all of
these children, the ones you made it through that encounter,
ended up having to travel by foot for five days
immediately following this, and according to this person Edward the survivor,
most of the most of the children died while on
(31:49):
that five day journey. You can imagine that was an
arduous journey in pretty bad conditions and without preparation for
the children.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Without sustenance, etc.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Yeah, I mean, as far as the abductors are concerned,
I'm sure they just figured that was collateral damage. As
long as we get a handful of them through, then
it was worth the effort.
Speaker 5 (32:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
The survivors were forced into training once they arrived at
the conclusion of the march, using trees for target practice,
and from day one, the victims were repeatedly forced to
participate in the murder of people who attempted to escape,
children who attempted to escape, and they were warned that
(32:30):
they too would face the same fate if they tried
something similar. This is one example. You can learn much
more about this practice as we record today. I believe
Joseph Cony is still at large. We're going to pause
for a word from our sponsor and will return with
(32:52):
more on child soldiers. And we have returned. We know
this is a bleak and immensely bleak. That's a good word,
an immensely bleak subject. So we actually took some extra
(33:13):
time during the break just to hang out for a
little bit. Now we want to explore consequences punishment death.
As we said earlier, the LRA is one of the
most well known examples of this practice due to the
Cony twenty twelve campaign, but it's far far from the
(33:37):
only example, and it's I think it's tremendously damaging to
organizations who seek to address this problem when it is
somehow portrayed as something that only happens on one continent.
We know the confirmed use of child soldiers in the
modern day occurs in Colombia, Burma, Nepal. It's gemmen, you know,
(34:04):
it's not restricted to this one place, and regardless of
their stated ideologies or goals. You know, because a lot
of these organizations are aiming for different things, right, They're
aiming to topple a government, or they're aiming to impose
a radicalized ideology of some sort. But when it comes
(34:26):
to the exploitation of children and the same rule, these
kids are forced to kill or be killed.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Ben, would you say it's more typical for these to
be parts of sort of more ad hoc kind of
militia type situations or are these like government sanctioned this
is like official.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, it's it's a good question, and it's it's troubling,
right because you know, we talked about we talked about
the what informed consent is and when a brain is
capable of making informed consent. We have like pretty good
evidence that the trend is this is more common in
(35:08):
non state actors, you know, militia's terrorist groups, spoke Oharam, etc.
But it still occurs in there are two definitions here,
or there are two factors. It can still occur in
state level actors. And the big factor is what do
(35:29):
you consider the threshold for a child? Because some First
World countries allow you to enlist in the military at
a very young age. There's one country which is considered
highly developed and their age at which one can enlist
in the military is fifteen years and seven months. They
even have to be sixteen. That country is the United Kingdom,
(35:52):
which surprises a lot of I mean, does that surprise
you guys Low.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, I thought it was nineteen, really thought it was nineteen.
But maybe it is just this restricted roles that you
can have at that age. I know, you can't be
sent overseas or sent into a wartime battle unless you're.
Speaker 5 (36:12):
Eighteen or nineteen.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Out of those nineteen and to be clarified, you can
start your when we say you can enlist, that means
you can start your application at fifteen years in seven months.
So it is an important point to your point, Matt.
You know they're not sending these fifteen year olds out
into into a conflict.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Is it almost like an ROTC type situation or like
like training wheels, you know, like where you're decided this
is the direction you want to go, and you start
a process at that age that probably involves some level
of training or it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah, yeah, all I know for sure is that you
can It's almost like just like going if you're going
to send off your information to a college or something
you're trying to get in. It's very similar to that
you send that off early before you start any kind
of you know, actual process usually only about a year
early though.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
I mean it's not like, you know, I would think
by sixteen they would be doing the thing and.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's why I think
that's the reasoning behind starting at fifteen point seventy five.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
That's very very finish. And this is you know, I mean,
at the end of.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
The day, this is a cycle that is almost impossible
to break. As anyone who's had post traumatic stress disorder
can attest, this is something that lives with you and
follows you likely for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
And well, yeah, and it just weird because we were
talking about militaries, especially in the UK, using children. Just
want to differentiate that we're jumping back to talking about
other situations where young children are the worst million into
these situations rather than signing up through some official process.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Right, right, yeah, Because when you escape, that doesn't mean
the story is over, right, There's still a living person
there who is sustained intense, intense psychological damage. In nineteen
ninety six, the UN released a report called the Impact
of Armed Conflict on Children, and it explored the challenges
(38:13):
that are facing these victims. And then there was further
research into the factors explored in that UN report, and
they found that, you know, these survivors have often often
struggle with poor literacy and numeracy or math skills because
(38:35):
they're not they didn't get the opportunity to continue schooling,
you know, and they often have these debilitating psychiatric illnesses,
which is more than understandable.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
Yeah, more than half, according to research that was conducted
in Uganda and Palestine, more than half of former child
soldiers showed signs of PTSD and nine out of ten
children and Uganda showed signs of depression.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Which is not surprising. I mean, who is that one
out of ten kid? Who isn't you know?
Speaker 5 (39:09):
Just I don't know.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
I mean, do you think I'm not trying to be
flipping at all, but that I mean, there are kids
maybe that are more predisposed to psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Maybe they would be the ones that would like be
really well suited for this.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
You know, that's an interesting idea. Know all the it
these are children, and I would just say testing children
for something like that is difficult, and even if you're
really really good at it, I'm surprised it wouldn't be
ten out of ten.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
But yeah, well then also there's i mean, without going
into the weeds too much on this, there's also like
marchin error, there's also how the problem of as you
said that diagnosing or gauging what a kid is really experiencing.
And you know, I've said it before, one of the strangest,
(39:57):
most inspiring, and most terrifying things about this species is
how quickly things become normalized or destigmatized, or you know,
become a regular day to day thing or appear to
be because our brains have to tell us that to survive,
(40:18):
they're in a situation. If you're in a situation where
violence is normal and murder is routine, then it's a
profound it's a profoundly challenging thing to go back to
the rest of the world where that is not the case.
So these survivors also often struggle with antisocial behavior. You've
(40:43):
been taught that one must use violence to advance in
the world to get the things.
Speaker 7 (40:50):
You want, and you've also been taught not to trust anyone,
and that everyone is seen as an adversary, you know,
like and in some way, shape or form, it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah, yeah, and there's you know, we wanted to be
careful during this episode not to have lurid, exploitative horror
stories here, but these children are scarred. Some of the
things that you can learn about on your own include
(41:29):
eyewitness reports of forced consumption of blood or human flesh
mutilation of bodies, things like that. And of course we've
talked a lot about boys being abducted, but this is
not restricted to young males. Girls are abducted female children,
(41:49):
and they are often forced into to be what are
called wives for commanders, or they are given over to
other members of a group for sexual abuse as some
sort of reward, and then they upon escaping, some of
(42:10):
them return home with children and they're hoping, you know,
that they will be accepted by their community, which is
an horrific situation. Human Rights Watch has found that sometimes
when these kids are escaping, they can be harmed by
the opposing groups that detain them, Like if there's a
(42:32):
very heated conflict between one separatist group, one official army,
and a kid who's been kidnapped by the separatist group
runs to the army for help. Are they going to
treat them as a victim or are they going to
treat them as a prisoner of war? You know what
I mean? And it's a dangerous question.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
And here's the thing. Once all of this is occurring,
Let's say a child is in has been captured by
opposing for us or something, and there's some kind of
hearing that's going to occur, some kind of tribunal where
the child is taken to court, and again, perhaps they
have done terrible things in the role that they have
been given and put into. Sometimes very often relatives of
(43:18):
this child, maybe close family members, maybe a guardian. Essentially,
often they are banned from attending this kind of hearing
because again, it's it's just further further pushing this child
into isolation, really is what it is, and holding them
accountable for their actions, but actions that were provoked by
(43:40):
someone else.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
And are you know, arguably not their own actions.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah, fully, And I don't mean to say it that way.
It's it's something that the child's hands did, but that
we're guided by someone else's I just that's so complicated.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
I mean, that's that's even beyond like the idea of
trying a child as an adult. They're like the you know,
a normal you know, juvenile delinquency or you know, bad
behavior by young children, like in civilian for lack of
a better term, life, Because this is absolutely they are
victims of abuse, of indoctrination, of manipulation, those.
Speaker 5 (44:15):
Beyond their control. How do you hold them accountable for that?
Speaker 1 (44:18):
And the groups that conspired to kidnap them and to
abuse them in this manner are of course not there
to help them, right, They have thrown these children to
the dust. So this is an upsetting episode, but it's
a very real thing. It's a conspiracy that occurs every
(44:40):
every day in the modern era. We are grateful to
point out that there are steps being taken to end
this practice. Their efficacy is not what we you know,
what anyone would wish for an imperfect world, But here's
what's happening. So the use of child soldiers, just like assas,
(45:00):
is a clear violation of international law. Right, the practice
of using child soldiers continues because to those in power
who are devoid of a certain degree of humanity, the
results are worth it. To them, the results are worth it.
So in nineteen seventy seven, there was this thing called
(45:24):
the Additional Protocols that were added to the nineteen forty
nine Geneva Conventions, and then there was another agreement, the
Convention on the Rights of the Child in nineteen eighty nine,
two thousand and two, the Rome Statute of the ICC
International Criminal Court. These all forbid any armed forces from
(45:45):
using children under the age of fifteen in direct armed combat.
But there's a there's not an international standard for when
a government can enlist someone in their armed services.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
In this addresses what we were talking about a minute ago. Currently,
it's a little bit divisive as to whether the children
themselves should be prosecuted and held accountable for war crimes.
Incredibly complicated issue. International law doesn't explicitly prohibit this, but
it does limit the punishments that can be meted out
(46:21):
to these children. There is no death penalty on the
table and no life imprisonment.
Speaker 5 (46:27):
At least there's that.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Yeah, which I guess is thanks. I don't know. I
guess it's good that the international community could at least
agree on that. So in two thousand something called the
Opak Treaty came into force. This is uh and you know,
we don't get to choose how the you incites right
their treaties. We don't get to choose the language they use.
(46:52):
OPAK stands for the Optional Protocol on the Involvement of
Children in Armed Conflict. It's child conscription. This forbids the
use of child recruits in conflicts, and it ensures that
military recruits are no younger than sixteen. It also forbids,
(47:16):
at least on paper, non state armed groups militias from
recruiting anyone under the age of eighteen for any purpose.
But again, these are treaties, right, and treaties only really
exist to the degree that they are enforced or have consequences.
Does that make sense. We could all right now make
(47:37):
a treaty about pretty much anything. We could just say
we have an agreement. But unless there is some sort
of cost to breaking that agreement, then in my opinion,
it's just a conversation that somebody wrote down.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
You know, yeah, that's true, it's true. But the good
thing is that approximately sixty non state armed groups have
entered into agreements to stop or scale back their use
their own use of children in combat and soldiers. I mean,
that's at least somewhat positive, right.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
It's true, and we also see that some of these
non state actors have gone into agreements, maybe not necessarily
at the level of U N treaties, but they've gone
into agreements like with the country or the regime or
the government that they're opposed to. They've kind of put
some rules of conflict down. But still the practice continues today,
(48:39):
the survivors remain largely disenfranchised, all too often ignored, often
refugees in clear need of a support system, clear need
of psychological support, and clear need of things as mundane
as job training know what I mean, or educational opportunities.
(49:04):
As we record this today, we are about one month
away from February twelfth, this is the International Day against
the Use of Child Soldiers. It's also known as Red
Hand Day. We want to think the countless individuals and
organizations working to end this practice, and we want to
(49:24):
hear your thoughts and experiences. What do you think can
be done to ensure children are able to have well
a childhood? What can institutions, communities and governments do to
It sounds cool, but to disincentivize these groups that force
children in the war. How can we for these very
unethical actors increase the cost and the consequences of engaging
(49:49):
in this practice such that it does not make sense
for them to do so, because obviously appealing to their
humanity is just not going to work. And maybe I'm
being too definitive there. I don't know, what do you
guys think? What is there a world where you know
I've talked about before, but a world where humans aren't
really involved in war at all and it's just robots
(50:11):
and drones.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Or for sure, for sure that's gonna happen. I want
to talk about something a little abstract here, guys in
that vein, if that's okay, really quickly. I'm just thinking
about the propaganda aspect of a lot of this, and
I'm I'm trying to imagine just the United States military
(50:32):
as an.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Example, Captain America and Bucky.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
That's that's what I mean, Captain America. The the millions
and millions of dollars that the US military has spent
on video games, on creating video games, on licensing military
you know, vehicles, weapons, likenesses into things like Call of
(50:56):
Duty where there are young children, even though these games
oftentimes are rate of mature or something they get into
the hands of children all the time, and they're playing
video games, identifying themselves or identifying as these characters who
are in the military who are shooting people. Then watching
television and the propaganda money that is outwardly now and
(51:17):
openly spent by the military on everything from TV shows
and movies to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
I want to stop you there real quick there on
the movie fronts, because I don't know if a lot
of people are aware. The US military, the arm services
will make a deal with movie studios make it very
easy to use real military equipment in a work of fiction.
One caveat so long as Uncle Sam or that the
(51:49):
military is portrayed in a positive light, it's very important.
So when you see films where the military is doing
terrible things or is the antagonist, uh, those that part
those action sequences become much more expensive because they have
to pay for more stuff.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
And just to your point there, it is to invade
the minds of I would say children. I think children,
And it's just as young in an age as you
can get someone to believe that this is a positive thing,
this is something to aspire to. And I it feels
that way to me. And I'm not saying that's necessarily bad.
(52:28):
I'm just saying it. It is somewhat insidious in that
the child perhaps doesn't realize that it's occurring.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
What about what about G I Joe's I loved them,
I should have kept them. I would have had to
have a job at this point. I would have just
been like a G I. Joe tycoon for sure. Uh well,
and then what about what about the theory this is
only tangentially related, but what about the theory that faction
(53:01):
of the military military Now keep this part in military,
it's it's uh, it's weaponized cattle the military. Uh No,
what about the theory that the military industrial complex or
factions thereof What if they're fighting against the idea of
more affordable education or healthcare because they need people to
(53:27):
have those the like they need people to be in
a bad economic situation to join the military. I've heard that.
I'm sure have you guys heard that one too.
Speaker 5 (53:36):
I have. It makes a lot of sense, but it's
hard to prove.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Yeah, yeah, I would hate to think that that could
be true in any way. And even what we're speaking
of in propaganda right here, it's it's it's p R.
It is, which is propaganda, and.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
You know, you know, of course obviously militaries have to
do some degree of pr and in like in a
functioning country, if it's not if it's not like an
iron fist dictatorship, there there has to be PR. I mean,
why am I even saying that there's a ton of
(54:15):
pr in dictatorships. There's like a parade every afternoon somewhere
in the world.
Speaker 4 (54:23):
Yeah, But like at a certain point, PR becomes indistinguishable
from propaganda. You know, propaganda is just sort of like
misleading PR. I mean, PR is all about they're the
same thing.
Speaker 5 (54:35):
Under They very much are the same thing.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
Yeah, But the I guess the what we're making is
we're not saying that. We're not saying that militaries are
inherently villainous overall for for using PR. It's like you
have to. It's like, how are you they like, that's
that's like being a navy and not having a boat.
And we want to know what you think about this practice.
(54:59):
Have you had have you had first hand interactions with
people who have survived something like this. If so, what
were your interactions, Like what do you think can be done?
We want to hear from you, and we have a
number of ways that you can get in touch with us.
Speaker 4 (55:20):
Yes, you can reach us in the usual Internet channels
of note, we've got Facebook where we're conspiracy Stuff, Instagram
where we're Conspiracy Stuff Show. You can also join our
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on the internet, why don't you go to iTunes or
Apple Podcasts or whatever they call themselves these days and
leave us a nice review. It helps help us in
(55:41):
the rankings and helps people discover the show, and we
would very much appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
And you can also find us at YouTube where we
are conspiracy Stuff I think is YouTube dot com slash
conspiracy stuff. Name of the channel is stuff they don't
want you to know. Check out all the videos from
years past, as well as videos of us having these discussion.
We hope you enjoy your time there. I always don't
(56:05):
like saying this, like and subscribe.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
But like us, like us please Oh gosh, And.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
I had to do that for a long time, for.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
A long time. Well, I think I have to pick
that up again. Stay tuned. We had a couple of
plot twists here in the US. I don't know if
anybody was also watching that unfold but it installed some
of our plans. But we have big plans for the
YouTube channel. Do check it out in the coming weeks,
(56:38):
coming month or so. But in the meantime, while you're
sitting there saying, all right, I've watched all the YouTube videos. Okay,
social media not quite my bag of badgers, but I
do have a story to share with you, we have
another way you can get in contact with us. That
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(56:58):
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(57:24):
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(57:45):
without hopping on the Zuck book and that is our
good old fashioned email address where.
Speaker 6 (57:50):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Fellow conspiracy realist. This classic episode is coming to now
because we had a brief conversation about this in either
a recent Strange News segment or a more recent episode.
But in twenty twenty one, we looked into a conspiracy,
an ongoing global tragedy, the practice of forcing children to
(00:23):
behave as soldiers.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yep, when you need someone to hold an ak and
aim it at places. I guess for some folks it
doesn't matter which hands those are.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yeah, I mean it's you know. It's the classic case
of targeting the most vulnerable and malleable in the most
callous and despicable way possible. Ugly and abhorrent, I believe
is what the metadata here says, and I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
This episode may not be appropriate for all listeners, but
we do feel it's important, So thank you for tuning in.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
(01:13):
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul Mission Control decands most importantly, are you
You are here and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. We're beginning today's episode with a disclaimer.
Our discussion today contains descriptions of violence against children, and
(01:51):
as such, it may not be suitable for all listeners.
Today we're examining war. It's one of humanity's continual curses.
It's a shadow that's followed this species for the entirety
of its existence, possibly before you know, war may predate
Homo sapiens, and we're just talking about group armed conflict.
(02:11):
The first war that is like acknowledged universally occurs in
Mesopotamia in twenty seven hundred BCE, and since then, some
kind of conflict has occurred in every single era of history,
on every part of the populated globe. It continues today.
It's a horrific thing. We know. We have people in
(02:32):
the audience listening with us today who have experienced the
horrors of armed conflict firsthand. And today we're focusing on
something that often doesn't get examined as much as it should,
or often gets examined through a Western slant, and that's
children in conflict, not as bystander. It's not as innocent
(02:53):
in the background, but as soldiers. So here are the facts.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
So what exactly is that child soldier? I mean, it's
pretty much what it sounds like. Technically, it's a soldier.
So it's also like the term soldier makes it a
little misleading because oftentimes.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
They're part of gorilla groups.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
They're not like exactly going through the proper channels of
like training in the way like a US military member might.
But it's a soldier anyone who is under the age
of eighteen who is quote recruited or used by an
armed force or armed group in any capacity. So this
is like a wide swath here. And this doesn't just
mean direct fighting. They can also be used in other roles,
(03:33):
as you know, couriers, spies, human shields, suicide bombers, or
even cooks, like actually just helping kind of the logistical
day to day of like.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Keeping up an armed force.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
And they can and oftentimes are victims of sexual exploitation.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I just wanted to jump in really quickly to talk
about a couple other roles. One of the big things
that we learned about was in the Revolutionary War and
War's passed when drums were used very commonly on battlefields
by varying armies as a way to communicate things at
far distances. So a commander would communicate something to a drummer,
(04:13):
and it would usually be a child. A lot of
times it would be a child, not always who would
then communicate that across a battlefield. And those children weren't
fighting necessarily, but they were no less in danger than
anyone who was wielding a gun.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Right, Yeah, And there are numerous other support roles, such
as porters just carrying stuff, often because you are threatened
with physical injury or death if you do not. You
do want to say, obviously the people in the audience
are thinking the same thing that the use of drums
to organize large groups of people over areas, especially during conflict,
(04:53):
is by no means restricted to the Revolutionary War. Drum
communication is itself an ancient art of communication that I
think was it didn't originate with world militaries, but was
what was adopted by world militaries because it is so efficient.
(05:14):
It's also it's also part of the reason why in
the era of chattel slavery in the United States, drums
were often forbidden possessions because enslaved people could use them
to communicate over distance. So it's it's a powerful thing.
And I know it's a tangent, but it is a
powerful thing.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Now it is. It's a really good point.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
But it also makes me think of like you know,
as far back as like you know, Roman militaries or
they would create these crazy formations and these failanxes and
drums would often be used to indicate which formation they
should assume.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
And one thing I love about the Revolutionary War example
there that you bring up met is that it gives
lie to the stereotypes that are implied in much of
Western media. You know, the practice of forcing children into
combat and some capacity is not restricted to any particular
region or country nor time. Children are, as we speak,
(06:11):
recruited in areas across the world by armed non state actors,
by which I mean groups outside of government control, as
well as by state supported armed forces. The non state
armed groups are, it is important to note, are more
likely than state supported groups to use children in direct
(06:35):
armed conflict. We say non state groups, we mean things
like militias, terrorist organizations, secessionist groups and so on. And
right now, you know it is proven that this stuff
is happening as we record this, as you listen today.
But the next question is how many child soldiers exist?
(06:55):
And if you can already see how the definition goes
beyond direct armed cons inflict, it's very difficult to get
a good estimate of how many how many children are
victimized in this way.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yes, And estimates on the number of child soldiers out
there in the world really does vary. It depends on
the definition. Really, that's what we're talking about here. If
we only count children in direct combat, that's one thing.
If we include any kind of supporting roles, that's another thing. Also,
it's awfully difficult to get true numbers out of from
(07:31):
a lot of places and to get militaries to actually
tell you the numbers of children that are at play here.
But there as many as two hundred and fifty thousand
child soldiers right now in at least twenty countries. That's
a staggering number. Two hundred and fifty thousand.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's a higher end estimate too. That's one of the
ones that includes support roles.
Speaker 5 (07:52):
I believe it is.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
If you look back throughout history, you can find reports
that during the World War One, conflict the First Great War,
there were around two hundred and fifty thousand child soldiers
allegedly a part of Europe's armies, like the Western armies,
And it's just to think that that many children are
(08:15):
still somehow being forced into one of these roles, or
it's sometimes not forced, but almost always forced.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Have either of you guys seen the movie from twenty
fifteen called.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
The Beasts of No Nation?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yes, I actually haven't seen.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I really love the director, Carrie Fukunaga, but I know
it's about like training a child, like an orphan, as
a child soldier in Africa during a conflict there, like
with a war lord kind of situation, which is kind
of why I was saying, like it's such a wide
swath because it is obviously exploitation, and oftentimes it's like
an opportunity for these kids to like have some kind
(08:52):
of support and some kind of community at the cost
of absolutely being exploited. You can speak to the film
more been since you've actually seen it, but I know
it did really well and it was pretty beloved, and
it's supposed to be a bit of a a series,
you know, hit you right in the fields kind of situation.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And we will explore recruitment processes indoctrination is a better word,
I believe, and how this takes place. If we look
at the wide margin of estimations, we see one of
the lower end ones is the you in verification of
(09:29):
certain cases, so you in verification is corroborated, it's proven.
You know that we have identified this specific individual and
we have identified what happened to them when and how,
And in that regard they verify thirty thousand cases. That's
and still even by that metric, which is very has
(09:51):
a lot of constraints. That the number of child soldiers
has doubled since twenty twelve, more than doubled, it's risen
one hundred fifty nine percent. This is not a vestigial
practice from days gone by. Child Soldiers International which is
an NGO seeking to end this practice, so obviously they
(10:14):
have an agenda at play. In twenty seventeen, this institution
estimated that there were possibly more than one hundred thousand
children in state level and non state military orgs around
the world. Either way you look at it, whichever numbers
you wish to use, it's inarguable this is a situation
(10:35):
involving thousands and thousands of kids. They're kids who often
have fallen through the cracks of the local government or
community systems in place, and it can be very difficult
to track them because the forces that use these kids
obviously don't always keep paperwork on them or documentation, because
(10:55):
that would be hard proof of, you know, war crimes.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
The big question is how to we get here, and like,
what is the history of children in combat? We've mentioned
a few things, but it is it's safe to say
that younger people in combat has been a practice that's
gone on for as long as war has existed, and
as we said, that goes well back into the BC years,
(11:20):
the BCE years. A lot of times, as we mentioned already,
a feature film that was made about the subject, the
concept of a child sold soldier has been romanticized to
an extent. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's put
in a positive light, but it's definitely told through fictional
stories or you know, based on nonfiction stories.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Many times, yeah, I would say there is romanticization, especially
when we're looking at idealized or airbrushed versions of past events,
events that occurred while no one living today was alive.
Seems to be one of the big cutoffs. Uh, then
it's it's in stark contrast to the way this practice
(12:06):
is portrayed in the modern day and amid other other cultures. Right,
like if it's it's odd that the drummer boy of
the Revolutionary War the Civil War is off is sometimes
seen as as a much prettier story than it actually is,
or think of think of it. You know. Another romanticized
(12:28):
trope is the idea, at least in the West, of
underage boys lying about their age to gain entry into
military service. Right. And it's something that we see uh
time and time again in film and fiction. You know,
even even to the point where a doctor or authority
who's assessing a would be recruit knows their line and
(12:51):
kind of gives them like a nod and a wink.
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Uh, well, because they needed everyone they could get, right,
so it like it behoved them to look the other way.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Well, yeah, that was the British Forces. There's a documentary
I was watching in preparation for this where there are
actual World War One soldiers who were children at a time,
fifteen sixteen who did sign up and it wasn't it
wasn't as though they were forced they wanted to go,
and they wanted to sign up, and they wanted to
fight in the Great War. And a lot of it
(13:21):
had to do with propaganda that was put out by
military leaders about we need you, and they would try
and sign up. They knew they weren't able to sign up,
but they did it anyway and lied about their age.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
And this isn't restricted to the First World War. Napoleon
used teenagers in his army. This is a pretty common practice,
and on both sides of both World Wars, child soldiers
existed and often, you know, as you said, they've been
(13:54):
they've been indoctrinated by propaganda. So when we look at
the modern child soldier, we have to ask ourselves, why
would commanders or people in authority who were adults, why
would they continue to use underage like use children as soldiers.
(14:15):
There's a guy named Peter W. Singer who argues that
part of this can be traced to the proliferation of
light automatic firearms, which is an interesting point that a
lot of people you know, don't consider light firearms of
this nature can be carried and used by children. This
(14:36):
makes them more viable in direct combat than they perhaps
were in days of yore when guns were heavier, or
when they had to use weapons that maybe require the
strength of an adult, you know what I mean, very
like longbows or large sorts.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Another big reason is things like overpopulation and scarce resources
and absolutely crippling poverty that would make, uh, this seem
like a.
Speaker 5 (15:06):
Valid alternative to that kind of life.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Again, like I was saying earlier, like just the need
for any kind of support at the cost of you know,
being absolutely exploited. Some leaders of various arm groups argue
that using children is a positive because they're fearless in
battle because they haven't been taught otherwise and they don't
have the same experience with like self preservation.
Speaker 5 (15:30):
You know. That's like this is not exactly the same thing.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
But like small children are fearless often like they're they're
they're willing to take risks because they haven't had time
to learn from their mistakes yet.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
They haven't had that touched the stove get burned.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Exactly, and this is something that is absolutely exploited.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Well even if they even if they have something like that,
they still don't have that fear of death then under
that true understanding of finality of what it is and
especially if they grew up religious. Then there's this, there's
just there's a lot to be exploited there in the
minds of the child.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Not to mention that they're still developing and maturing mentally,
and they're just a lot more easy to take advantage
of or to especially under the guise of like a
helping hand. Of course, I'll do whatever you want me
to do. You're you're keeping me from starving to death,
you're giving me a place to sleep. So this is
also heavily exploited.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And there's another thing here that's been reported is that
child soldiers would sometimes be used to confuse the enemy
and to make the enemy feel less inclined to fire
back at a child. Psychological warfare that is coming at them,
even with a bayoneted rifle or you know, within within
an assault rifle. When there's a child coming at you
(16:44):
with that, it does something to you.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Can you imagine.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
I mean, it's just like talk about disregarding like basic
rules of engagement or whatever this is out you're right, Ben,
it's absolutely psychological warfare. Not to mention, they're cheaper to
maintain than fully grown soldiers. They don't need as much,
and they you know, they're small, they can get into
tight spaces and things like that.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I do want to point out this is this is
something that I dove into years ago for car stuff,
of all things. We're doing an episode about what the
driving age should be. Right. We've got a lot of
folks in the audience who are you know, who just
(17:24):
heard like fifteen or sixty eight and you're going to
get your license if there's not a pandemic in the US.
And we've got a lot of people who are parents
of kids who are turning driving age right, and there
there's been this, you know, back and forth for a
long time about what the appropriate age is for a
kid to have a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle.
(17:45):
It turns out that your brain and your your faculties
aren't really fully developed until you're about twenty five. So
if we say that someone needs to be an adult
before they can drive, then you would be getting your
license at twenty five, which is just not going to fly.
(18:06):
And we're bringing this up because this gives you a
sense of how much growing children's brains still have to do,
you know, when they're fourteen, or when they're as young
as eight years old. This means that even if these
kids feel that they are taking an opportunity and feel
(18:28):
that they're volunteering, they may not have the cognitive development
such that we could consider this informed consent. Does that
make sense?
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Does?
Speaker 6 (18:42):
So?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
We are about to dive into some incredibly disturbing stories, folks,
but we believe they are important and we believe people
need to know about them. Again, what follows may not
be suitable for all listeners, so we're going to pause
for a word from our response ans and will return
in a moment. Here's where it gets crazy recruitment tactics
(19:13):
with hard air quotes around those. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And the reason that we've got those there is because
this is many times often not a consensual process between
the child and whoever whatever person or organization is doing
that recruitment. Some children are fully abducted and taken from
either families or whatever living situation they are in. Some
(19:37):
are threatened, families are threatened. Sometimes sometimes the children themselves,
if they're alone, are coerced into joining by being offered
things that they don't have available to them if they
weren't going to go with this person or group, things
like drugs, money, even just other things like a place
(19:58):
to sleep and a group to be with. Almost almost
like we've discussed before in the recruitment tactics of gangs,
very similar stuff going on here.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Or sometimes cults, as we'll see. And then there's also
a very rational decision or a very rational threat, which is
you have to join us because we will protect you
against the other people right who are also coming to
your rural area to wage war. So after this initial
(20:37):
process whatever you want to call it, recruitment, kidnapping, coortion
of some sort, after this begins the indoctrination process because
they have these young, malleable minds. One of the most
well known recent examples of this practice, especially in the States,
comes from the infamous Joseph Coney is still at large.
(21:02):
Longtime listeners, we've been doing this show for a while,
you may recall. In twenty twelve, there was an awareness
campaign called Cony twenty twelve that went viral. There were
also a lot of criticisms about this campaign, the primary
one being that people were becoming clicktivist, which is a
(21:23):
portmanteau meaning someone who confuses liking a post with doing
something about a cause, doing something to support a cause
they care about or oppose a problem. Right, do you
guys remember when Cony twenty twelve it is out?
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I do, Joseph Coney, leader of that thing called the
Lord's Resistance Army. You know, honestly, I didn't remember much
about that until I've reread some of it. All I
remembered was Cony twenty twelve, and like the basic concept,
but no specifics about the atrocities or what was going on.
It's interesting how when it becomes such a slogan and
(22:03):
an icon, just you know those things put together. Cony
twenty twelve, that's what you remember, because you know the
posts a lot of times would just be that.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
Cony twenty twelve.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Remember, and there is that documentary by Invisible Children. Everybody
agrees this is an imborant practice, but we need to
understand how it works. And the LRA is one of
the organizations of which outsiders have intimate knowledge because of
(22:35):
the accounts of survivors. We have first hand accounts. So
for more than two decades, the LRA kidnapped an estimated
thirty thousand children from northern Uganda. So think about that again.
The UN has thirty thousand verified cases. They said the
(22:55):
LRA kidnapped an estimated thirty thousand. You see how the
numbers get. It's fuzzy, it's difficult to track. But we
do know that the LRA force these children into military
service and they brainwash them. If you check out our
YouTube video on how cults work, you'll recognize a lot
of commonalities here. First, they instill existential fear. If you're
(23:21):
a child who has been kidnapped by the LRA, they're
not just telling you that they'll kill you if you
try to escape. They're telling you that the communities you
try to escape too, like go if you try to
run back home, if you have a home to go to. Still,
they're telling the kids that the community they escape to
will also murder them in various unspeakable ways. But in
(23:45):
the case of the LRA, and even more in cities
think about this is it's not true Cony's opponents do
not kill child soldiers, but the kids have no way
to know that.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Yeah, no, for sure, the othering factor really plays a
big part. I was reading up a little bit, and
I think it's speculated that that film I was talking about,
Beasts of No Nation, is somewhat loosely based on Coney
it's sort of meant to be sort of like a
amorphous African country that they don't name it. But it's
very similar to the types of tactics we're talking about here.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, and you know, on top of that, after you've
gotten in their heads that way already, one of the
practices though again we've talked about before, would be to
remove the sense of self, the identity from the child's mind,
to restrict things from them that would remind them of home,
of their culture, of their family. There's an example that
(24:42):
you have here been of the calabash gourd, which is
I believe used as a ceremonial instrument in Uganda, and
it's something that would be very common for a child
growing up there in northern Uganda. But then the l
RA specifically restricts this and forbids any use of this chord.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Yeah, it's all it's all kind of textbook like cult
leader type behavior too, like the separation, the isolation, the
you know, the kind of insular situation and almost like
having their own terms separating people from their own culture
and their own family. A lot of the same kind
of tactics. It seems like that the cult recruiters use.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Which again, you know, I don't say this all the time,
but the video we mentioned earlier that presents this stuff
does hold up because these rules don't really change. These
tactics don't change. They evolve with stuff like social media
and so on, but it's still the same process.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Other activities are forbidden that give that sense of self
Whispering is forbidden because that gives that is seen as
a sign of plotting. And then from the cult perspective,
one of the first things you do is remove privacy,
remove agency. The commanders also and the children participate in homicide.
(26:03):
One former child soldier reported they would say things like quote,
if you didn't want to kill, are you not one
of us? Please come forward and kill. It's not only
normalized by the LRA and organizations like it, it's also
the only way to ensure your favor in the eyes
(26:24):
of the commanders. It's the only way to get promoted,
and in many cases it's the only way not to
be punished, especially in the beginning when you haven't been
traumatized and desensitized. This also includes situations where children have
been forced to participate in the murder of members of
(26:45):
their own community, including relatives, neighbors, siblings' parents, and Coney himself.
If this is a cult, Coney is the leader. I
was recently rewatching Apocalypse Now, the Redux version, which as
you guys know, is based on a novel called The
(27:05):
Heart of Darkness. Kurts in the Heart of Darkness or
Kerdel Kurts in Apocalypse Now are treated as these demi
gods by the population that they have exerted dominion over
and Coney. Coney does similar things. He teaches his army
(27:30):
that he is like a god, that he has spiritual powers.
And part of this is because the LRA is an
offshoot of an earlier non military group called the Holy
Spirit Movement. It was a religious group, So he's got
that they're all already kind of spiritual roots here. They
(27:51):
believe he has powers, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Yes, In fact, Cony absolutely pushed this whole narrative. He
claimed that he could speak with spirits and that all
of the LRA actions were justified because they can of
were handed down from on high in some way in
the name of religion. And Cony also claims that Tipou
Malange here first to as the Holy Spirit is protecting
(28:15):
him and keeping him safe and his followers, and that
he is essentially communicating with him to let him know
who has bad intentions towards him, so that he can
actually read the intentions of his enemies and get inside
their heads with this kind of like spiritual intervention. And
also that the spirits of those of fighters who have
(28:37):
been killed will one day return to kill their perpetrators
if the fighters attempt to escape. So it's also like
a malevolent quality to this of like, you know, vengeful
spirits coming back for revenge from beyond the grave, right, like, uh,
you have your.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Child, you're a child. You've been forced to kill someone
in the indoctrination process. Not only have you killed this person,
but now you are told that the spirit of the
person you killed will come find you if you try
to escape. Now you owe a debt to the LRA.
(29:19):
And in addition to these sticks, the group dangles a
carrot future power and wealth. We succeed in overthrowing the government,
Cony said, every soldier, regardless of their rank, will be
rewarded with very high rank in the military, and they'll
also get a lot of material wealth. These, of course,
(29:43):
are lies. Obviously a former child soldier of the LRA,
who is identified as Edward in an interview, share the
story of his abduction, his indoctrination, and his eventual escape
with the Guardian the British outlet. And he is distinct
(30:06):
because he became relatively close to Joseph Coney himself, and
so that's why we have such an understanding of the LRA.
We can tell you a little bit about his story. Again,
this hasn't happened to every victim of this practice, but
(30:26):
there are a lot of commonalities here and they are
it's just it's terrible.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
So here is kind of the story of this child
soldier Edward. He was kidnapped at the age of thirteen, abducted,
and he tells it like this, in the middle of
the night, the rebels came and surrounded our homes. Until then,
I had never heard the sound of a gunshot. That's
an interesting detail. The rebels captured dozens of boys, the
(30:55):
youngest of whom was around eight years old.
Speaker 5 (30:59):
Oh my god. This yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
This person also reported that one of the neighbor children
who was there, who got caught up in everything, was
forced to murder his own parents.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
I mean, talk about the ultimate act of disconnecting, right,
It's like, first of all, it's like a show of
like loyalty, you'll do this for me. And also now
where I'm your parents now you know, I mean, good God.
Speaker 5 (31:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And in such a swift and brutal way, all of
these children, the ones you made it through that encounter,
ended up having to travel by foot for five days
immediately following this, and according to this person Edward the survivor,
most of the most of the children died while on
(31:49):
that five day journey. You can imagine that was an
arduous journey in pretty bad conditions and without preparation for
the children.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Without sustenance, etc.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Yeah, I mean, as far as the abductors are concerned,
I'm sure they just figured that was collateral damage. As
long as we get a handful of them through, then
it was worth the effort.
Speaker 5 (32:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
The survivors were forced into training once they arrived at
the conclusion of the march, using trees for target practice,
and from day one, the victims were repeatedly forced to
participate in the murder of people who attempted to escape,
children who attempted to escape, and they were warned that
(32:30):
they too would face the same fate if they tried
something similar. This is one example. You can learn much
more about this practice as we record today. I believe
Joseph Cony is still at large. We're going to pause
for a word from our sponsor and will return with
(32:52):
more on child soldiers. And we have returned. We know
this is a bleak and immensely bleak. That's a good word,
an immensely bleak subject. So we actually took some extra
(33:13):
time during the break just to hang out for a
little bit. Now we want to explore consequences punishment death.
As we said earlier, the LRA is one of the
most well known examples of this practice due to the
Cony twenty twelve campaign, but it's far far from the
(33:37):
only example, and it's I think it's tremendously damaging to
organizations who seek to address this problem when it is
somehow portrayed as something that only happens on one continent.
We know the confirmed use of child soldiers in the
modern day occurs in Colombia, Burma, Nepal. It's gemmen, you know,
(34:04):
it's not restricted to this one place, and regardless of
their stated ideologies or goals. You know, because a lot
of these organizations are aiming for different things, right, They're
aiming to topple a government, or they're aiming to impose
a radicalized ideology of some sort. But when it comes
(34:26):
to the exploitation of children and the same rule, these
kids are forced to kill or be killed.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Ben, would you say it's more typical for these to
be parts of sort of more ad hoc kind of
militia type situations or are these like government sanctioned this
is like official.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, it's it's a good question, and it's it's troubling,
right because you know, we talked about we talked about
the what informed consent is and when a brain is
capable of making informed consent. We have like pretty good
evidence that the trend is this is more common in
(35:08):
non state actors, you know, militia's terrorist groups, spoke Oharam, etc.
But it still occurs in there are two definitions here,
or there are two factors. It can still occur in
state level actors. And the big factor is what do
(35:29):
you consider the threshold for a child? Because some First
World countries allow you to enlist in the military at
a very young age. There's one country which is considered
highly developed and their age at which one can enlist
in the military is fifteen years and seven months. They
even have to be sixteen. That country is the United Kingdom,
(35:52):
which surprises a lot of I mean, does that surprise
you guys Low.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, I thought it was nineteen, really thought it was nineteen.
But maybe it is just this restricted roles that you
can have at that age. I know, you can't be
sent overseas or sent into a wartime battle unless you're.
Speaker 5 (36:12):
Eighteen or nineteen.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Out of those nineteen and to be clarified, you can
start your when we say you can enlist, that means
you can start your application at fifteen years in seven months.
So it is an important point to your point, Matt.
You know they're not sending these fifteen year olds out
into into a conflict.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Is it almost like an ROTC type situation or like
like training wheels, you know, like where you're decided this
is the direction you want to go, and you start
a process at that age that probably involves some level
of training or it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah, yeah, all I know for sure is that you
can It's almost like just like going if you're going
to send off your information to a college or something
you're trying to get in. It's very similar to that
you send that off early before you start any kind
of you know, actual process usually only about a year
early though.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
I mean it's not like, you know, I would think
by sixteen they would be doing the thing and.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's why I think
that's the reasoning behind starting at fifteen point seventy five.
Speaker 5 (37:16):
That's very very finish. And this is you know, I mean,
at the end of.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
The day, this is a cycle that is almost impossible
to break. As anyone who's had post traumatic stress disorder
can attest, this is something that lives with you and
follows you likely for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
And well, yeah, and it just weird because we were
talking about militaries, especially in the UK, using children. Just
want to differentiate that we're jumping back to talking about
other situations where young children are the worst million into
these situations rather than signing up through some official process.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Right, right, yeah, Because when you escape, that doesn't mean
the story is over, right, There's still a living person
there who is sustained intense, intense psychological damage. In nineteen
ninety six, the UN released a report called the Impact
of Armed Conflict on Children, and it explored the challenges
(38:13):
that are facing these victims. And then there was further
research into the factors explored in that UN report, and
they found that, you know, these survivors have often often
struggle with poor literacy and numeracy or math skills because
(38:35):
they're not they didn't get the opportunity to continue schooling,
you know, and they often have these debilitating psychiatric illnesses,
which is more than understandable.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
Yeah, more than half, according to research that was conducted
in Uganda and Palestine, more than half of former child
soldiers showed signs of PTSD and nine out of ten
children and Uganda showed signs of depression.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Which is not surprising. I mean, who is that one
out of ten kid? Who isn't you know?
Speaker 5 (39:09):
Just I don't know.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
I mean, do you think I'm not trying to be
flipping at all, but that I mean, there are kids
maybe that are more predisposed to psychopathic or sociopathic tendencies.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Maybe they would be the ones that would like be
really well suited for this.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
You know, that's an interesting idea. Know all the it
these are children, and I would just say testing children
for something like that is difficult, and even if you're
really really good at it, I'm surprised it wouldn't be
ten out of ten.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
But yeah, well then also there's i mean, without going
into the weeds too much on this, there's also like
marchin error, there's also how the problem of as you
said that diagnosing or gauging what a kid is really experiencing.
And you know, I've said it before, one of the strangest,
(39:57):
most inspiring, and most terrifying things about this species is
how quickly things become normalized or destigmatized, or you know,
become a regular day to day thing or appear to
be because our brains have to tell us that to survive,
(40:18):
they're in a situation. If you're in a situation where
violence is normal and murder is routine, then it's a
profound it's a profoundly challenging thing to go back to
the rest of the world where that is not the case.
So these survivors also often struggle with antisocial behavior. You've
(40:43):
been taught that one must use violence to advance in
the world to get the things.
Speaker 7 (40:50):
You want, and you've also been taught not to trust anyone,
and that everyone is seen as an adversary, you know,
like and in some way, shape or form, it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah, yeah, and there's you know, we wanted to be
careful during this episode not to have lurid, exploitative horror
stories here, but these children are scarred. Some of the
things that you can learn about on your own include
(41:29):
eyewitness reports of forced consumption of blood or human flesh
mutilation of bodies, things like that. And of course we've
talked a lot about boys being abducted, but this is
not restricted to young males. Girls are abducted female children,
(41:49):
and they are often forced into to be what are
called wives for commanders, or they are given over to
other members of a group for sexual abuse as some
sort of reward, and then they upon escaping, some of
(42:10):
them return home with children and they're hoping, you know,
that they will be accepted by their community, which is
an horrific situation. Human Rights Watch has found that sometimes
when these kids are escaping, they can be harmed by
the opposing groups that detain them, Like if there's a
(42:32):
very heated conflict between one separatist group, one official army,
and a kid who's been kidnapped by the separatist group
runs to the army for help. Are they going to
treat them as a victim or are they going to
treat them as a prisoner of war? You know what
I mean? And it's a dangerous question.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
And here's the thing. Once all of this is occurring,
Let's say a child is in has been captured by
opposing for us or something, and there's some kind of
hearing that's going to occur, some kind of tribunal where
the child is taken to court, and again, perhaps they
have done terrible things in the role that they have
been given and put into. Sometimes very often relatives of
(43:18):
this child, maybe close family members, maybe a guardian. Essentially,
often they are banned from attending this kind of hearing
because again, it's it's just further further pushing this child
into isolation, really is what it is, and holding them
accountable for their actions, but actions that were provoked by
(43:40):
someone else.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
And are you know, arguably not their own actions.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah, fully, And I don't mean to say it that way.
It's it's something that the child's hands did, but that
we're guided by someone else's I just that's so complicated.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
I mean, that's that's even beyond like the idea of
trying a child as an adult. They're like the you know,
a normal you know, juvenile delinquency or you know, bad
behavior by young children, like in civilian for lack of
a better term, life, Because this is absolutely they are
victims of abuse, of indoctrination, of manipulation, those.
Speaker 5 (44:15):
Beyond their control. How do you hold them accountable for that?
Speaker 1 (44:18):
And the groups that conspired to kidnap them and to
abuse them in this manner are of course not there
to help them, right, They have thrown these children to
the dust. So this is an upsetting episode, but it's
a very real thing. It's a conspiracy that occurs every
(44:40):
every day in the modern era. We are grateful to
point out that there are steps being taken to end
this practice. Their efficacy is not what we you know,
what anyone would wish for an imperfect world, But here's
what's happening. So the use of child soldiers, just like assas,
(45:00):
is a clear violation of international law. Right, the practice
of using child soldiers continues because to those in power
who are devoid of a certain degree of humanity, the
results are worth it. To them, the results are worth it.
So in nineteen seventy seven, there was this thing called
(45:24):
the Additional Protocols that were added to the nineteen forty
nine Geneva Conventions, and then there was another agreement, the
Convention on the Rights of the Child in nineteen eighty nine,
two thousand and two, the Rome Statute of the ICC
International Criminal Court. These all forbid any armed forces from
(45:45):
using children under the age of fifteen in direct armed combat.
But there's a there's not an international standard for when
a government can enlist someone in their armed services.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
In this addresses what we were talking about a minute ago. Currently,
it's a little bit divisive as to whether the children
themselves should be prosecuted and held accountable for war crimes.
Incredibly complicated issue. International law doesn't explicitly prohibit this, but
it does limit the punishments that can be meted out
(46:21):
to these children. There is no death penalty on the
table and no life imprisonment.
Speaker 5 (46:27):
At least there's that.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Yeah, which I guess is thanks. I don't know. I
guess it's good that the international community could at least
agree on that. So in two thousand something called the
Opak Treaty came into force. This is uh and you know,
we don't get to choose how the you incites right
their treaties. We don't get to choose the language they use.
(46:52):
OPAK stands for the Optional Protocol on the Involvement of
Children in Armed Conflict. It's child conscription. This forbids the
use of child recruits in conflicts, and it ensures that
military recruits are no younger than sixteen. It also forbids,
(47:16):
at least on paper, non state armed groups militias from
recruiting anyone under the age of eighteen for any purpose.
But again, these are treaties, right, and treaties only really
exist to the degree that they are enforced or have consequences.
Does that make sense. We could all right now make
(47:37):
a treaty about pretty much anything. We could just say
we have an agreement. But unless there is some sort
of cost to breaking that agreement, then in my opinion,
it's just a conversation that somebody wrote down.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
You know, yeah, that's true, it's true. But the good
thing is that approximately sixty non state armed groups have
entered into agreements to stop or scale back their use
their own use of children in combat and soldiers. I mean,
that's at least somewhat positive, right.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
It's true, and we also see that some of these
non state actors have gone into agreements, maybe not necessarily
at the level of U N treaties, but they've gone
into agreements like with the country or the regime or
the government that they're opposed to. They've kind of put
some rules of conflict down. But still the practice continues today,
(48:39):
the survivors remain largely disenfranchised, all too often ignored, often
refugees in clear need of a support system, clear need
of psychological support, and clear need of things as mundane
as job training know what I mean, or educational opportunities.
(49:04):
As we record this today, we are about one month
away from February twelfth, this is the International Day against
the Use of Child Soldiers. It's also known as Red
Hand Day. We want to think the countless individuals and
organizations working to end this practice, and we want to
(49:24):
hear your thoughts and experiences. What do you think can
be done to ensure children are able to have well
a childhood? What can institutions, communities and governments do to
It sounds cool, but to disincentivize these groups that force
children in the war. How can we for these very
unethical actors increase the cost and the consequences of engaging
(49:49):
in this practice such that it does not make sense
for them to do so, because obviously appealing to their
humanity is just not going to work. And maybe I'm
being too definitive there. I don't know, what do you
guys think? What is there a world where you know
I've talked about before, but a world where humans aren't
really involved in war at all and it's just robots
(50:11):
and drones.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Or for sure, for sure that's gonna happen. I want
to talk about something a little abstract here, guys in
that vein, if that's okay, really quickly. I'm just thinking
about the propaganda aspect of a lot of this, and
I'm I'm trying to imagine just the United States military
(50:32):
as an.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Example, Captain America and Bucky.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
That's that's what I mean, Captain America. The the millions
and millions of dollars that the US military has spent
on video games, on creating video games, on licensing military
you know, vehicles, weapons, likenesses into things like Call of
(50:56):
Duty where there are young children, even though these games
oftentimes are rate of mature or something they get into
the hands of children all the time, and they're playing
video games, identifying themselves or identifying as these characters who
are in the military who are shooting people. Then watching
television and the propaganda money that is outwardly now and
(51:17):
openly spent by the military on everything from TV shows
and movies to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
I want to stop you there real quick there on
the movie fronts, because I don't know if a lot
of people are aware. The US military, the arm services
will make a deal with movie studios make it very
easy to use real military equipment in a work of fiction.
One caveat so long as Uncle Sam or that the
(51:49):
military is portrayed in a positive light, it's very important.
So when you see films where the military is doing
terrible things or is the antagonist, uh, those that part
those action sequences become much more expensive because they have
to pay for more stuff.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
And just to your point there, it is to invade
the minds of I would say children. I think children,
And it's just as young in an age as you
can get someone to believe that this is a positive thing,
this is something to aspire to. And I it feels
that way to me. And I'm not saying that's necessarily bad.
(52:28):
I'm just saying it. It is somewhat insidious in that
the child perhaps doesn't realize that it's occurring.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
What about what about G I Joe's I loved them,
I should have kept them. I would have had to
have a job at this point. I would have just
been like a G I. Joe tycoon for sure. Uh well,
and then what about what about the theory this is
only tangentially related, but what about the theory that faction
(53:01):
of the military military Now keep this part in military,
it's it's uh, it's weaponized cattle the military. Uh No,
what about the theory that the military industrial complex or
factions thereof What if they're fighting against the idea of
more affordable education or healthcare because they need people to
(53:27):
have those the like they need people to be in
a bad economic situation to join the military. I've heard that.
I'm sure have you guys heard that one too.
Speaker 5 (53:36):
I have. It makes a lot of sense, but it's
hard to prove.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Yeah, yeah, I would hate to think that that could
be true in any way. And even what we're speaking
of in propaganda right here, it's it's it's p R.
It is, which is propaganda, and.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
You know, you know, of course obviously militaries have to
do some degree of pr and in like in a
functioning country, if it's not if it's not like an
iron fist dictatorship, there there has to be PR. I mean,
why am I even saying that there's a ton of
(54:15):
pr in dictatorships. There's like a parade every afternoon somewhere
in the world.
Speaker 4 (54:23):
Yeah, But like at a certain point, PR becomes indistinguishable
from propaganda. You know, propaganda is just sort of like
misleading PR. I mean, PR is all about they're the
same thing.
Speaker 5 (54:35):
Under They very much are the same thing.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
Yeah, But the I guess the what we're making is
we're not saying that. We're not saying that militaries are
inherently villainous overall for for using PR. It's like you
have to. It's like, how are you they like, that's
that's like being a navy and not having a boat.
And we want to know what you think about this practice.
(54:59):
Have you had have you had first hand interactions with
people who have survived something like this. If so, what
were your interactions, Like what do you think can be done?
We want to hear from you, and we have a
number of ways that you can get in touch with us.
Speaker 4 (55:20):
Yes, you can reach us in the usual Internet channels
of note, we've got Facebook where we're conspiracy Stuff, Instagram
where we're Conspiracy Stuff Show. You can also join our
Facebook group here's where it gets crazy. And while you're
on the internet, why don't you go to iTunes or
Apple Podcasts or whatever they call themselves these days and
leave us a nice review. It helps help us in
(55:41):
the rankings and helps people discover the show, and we
would very much appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
And you can also find us at YouTube where we
are conspiracy Stuff I think is YouTube dot com slash
conspiracy stuff. Name of the channel is stuff they don't
want you to know. Check out all the videos from
years past, as well as videos of us having these discussion.
We hope you enjoy your time there. I always don't
(56:05):
like saying this, like and subscribe.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
But like us, like us please Oh gosh, And.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
I had to do that for a long time, for.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
A long time. Well, I think I have to pick
that up again. Stay tuned. We had a couple of
plot twists here in the US. I don't know if
anybody was also watching that unfold but it installed some
of our plans. But we have big plans for the
YouTube channel. Do check it out in the coming weeks,
(56:38):
coming month or so. But in the meantime, while you're
sitting there saying, all right, I've watched all the YouTube videos. Okay,
social media not quite my bag of badgers, but I
do have a story to share with you, we have
another way you can get in contact with us. That
is our telephone number, whether a landline, a sell or
(56:58):
whatever you have, you can We are one eight three
three st d WYTK. You will have three minutes. Those
three minutes are yours, They belong to you. You can
tell us whatever is on your mind. Just tell us
if you prefer. We do not use your name or
your voice on the show. And if you can, if
(57:24):
you can try to keep it concise, that that helps us,
that helps us digest it, and that makes it easier
for us to share it with the best part of
the show, your fellow listeners. So we would love to
hear from you there. You hate phones, Look, I more
than get it, and that is why we always have
one way you can contact us without hopping on a phone,
(57:45):
without hopping on the Zuck book and that is our
good old fashioned email address where.
Speaker 6 (57:50):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
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