June 2, 2026 • 54 mins
In this interview, award-winning musical phenomenon Kesha joins the guys on a wide-ranging exploration of everything from UFO disclosure to deep-dive studies of the human brain on psychedelics, allegations of paranormal activity, her new podcast "Kesha and the Creepies" and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Folks, we are returning with a classic interview segment that
we super enjoyed, and I'll be honest with you guys,
going into it, I wasn't sure exactly what to expect.
We managed to talk with the world famous musician and
incredibly brilliant force, none other than.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Kesha Kasha TikTok. She invented it, well, at least I
think it was named after her song clearly, so who
knew well, I don't know if we did at that time,
but yeah, Kesha, super super cool person, really fascinated by
a lot of the same stuff that we discuss on
this here show. And we talked about a lot of
those things with her in a super wide ranging conversation,
(00:42):
jumping from uf PHO disclosure to studies of the human brain,
on psychedelics, paranormal activity, ghost stories, all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
How did this come about? We knew Kesha from a
show or something, or she knew us.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yep, she had a show called Kesha and the Creepies
that we did on iHeart for a while. I think
it's still out there if you want to check it out.
It did not sadly continue, but the episodes that are there,
super cool It's Kasha talking to some very interesting people
from music and culture about paranormal happenings that they've experienced,
(01:16):
Folks like Trippy Red the Rapper, and it's really really
fun and Kasha is just a super cool person, very
open minded, very out there in the best possible way,
and we all vibe together pretty hard on this classic episode.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Let's jump in.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is My
name is Noah.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer. All mission control decands. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff
they don't want you to know. It should go without
saying for anybody who's check the title of today's episode
that this is a very special show for us. We
are in conversation with the award winning, multi platinum selling
(02:26):
recording artist, musical phenomenon and now host of our pure podcast,
Kesha and the Creepies, the one and only Kesha. You're
really here, Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Thanks for having me. And what if I'm just a
hologram of myself, It's not really.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Me, certainly possible, but Ben would be hype manning that
hologram like as best as I think I've ever heard. Doney,
thank you so much for joining us, Kesha. This is exciting.
Kesha and the Creepies is a show that I was
super excited to have a little bit of a hand
in kind of, you know, starting together on the network
and kind of work with you to get it on
the iHeart Network. And yeah, it felt from the start
(03:04):
like a good fit for our show because it's really
just an exploration of kind of all things creepy, all
things supernatural, psychedelic, bizarre. To tell us a little bit
upfront where this comes from, and as far as you're
fascination with this kind of stuff, sure.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
Well, I definitely think that you had more than just
a little bit of a hand in that You've been
very helpful in guiding me in the ways of making
a podcast, So I thank you for And I just
have always been fascinated with things that I don't understand.
I always find that that's the most magical part of life.
So I've always been drawn to trying to discover more
and more about it, But it turns out the more
(03:40):
I know, the more I realize I don't know. So
I just want to talk to all the people with
all the experiences and get all different perspectives. And that's
what my podcast is about, is just exploring different artists
and the experiences they've had.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
Cult leaders, a wizard, just you name it.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
I'm me into talking about weird shit, anything that's spiritual.
It's kind of like a podcast for whatever you want
to talk about that's just a little bit magical or unexplainable.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I greatly enjoyed the January first episode, pretty recent I Believe,
with parapsychologist doctor Caroline Watt.
Speaker 6 (04:20):
Yeah, that was so interesting for me at least.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Did you learn anything that surprised you in that particular episode.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
There was one thing that she told me that was
about fifty percent of people believe in the supernatural, but
in that fifty percent, praying is considered believing in the supernatural.
So if you are a person that's ever said a prayer,
you would fall into that category. And I have usually,
in moments of desperation, fallen to prayer as like a
(04:54):
very last option, like when I'm on a scary flight
or something, and apparently that that is is participating in
believing in the supernatural. And I didn't know that believing
in God would also be believing in the supernatural, but
I guess it totally makes sense.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And yet so many of those folks might consider the
other realms of supernatural study and belief to be the
occult or in some way demonic or devil worshipers. I
think it's very ironic and fascinating. It never occurred to me,
but it absolutely is. What is praying, if not communicating
with the supernatural, with the other side, with some like
entity beyond this.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Realm and something that can help you if you just
talk to it that you can't see. So once you
said that, it kind of blew my mind, and I
realized that there are so many people that believe in
the supernatural, even if they're not aware that it's supernatural,
but it is just supernatural.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, arose by any other name.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Almost.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, this is the perfect setup for some of this
stuff we wanted to explore with you today because to
that earlier point about what is supernatur natural, we encounter
it through kind of our pre existing lens, our own
experiences as individual human beings. So one person might see
(06:10):
something and think it's an angel, right, one person might
see something to think it's a ghost.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
Or an alien or an alien. However, you kind of
have the.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
Words and the information that you've gotten through your whole
life of what that thing is. But I think we
might all be talking about the same thing at the
end of the day. My higher consciousness. Sometimes I'm like,
is that an alien?
Speaker 6 (06:37):
Is that just me?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
But my highest self? Is that just me meditating and
feeling fucking weird? I don't know, but it could kind
of fall under all those names.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Does it come from within me? Or am I tuning
into something beyond myself? Something external?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
You know?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I think that's the most interesting question to me about
all of this stuff.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
Me too.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Oh my god. Okay, I want to hit on this
really quickly. You spoke recently with Demi Levado and she
described going to a retreat with a specific person that
we've spoken to on this show before, Steven Greer.
Speaker 6 (07:10):
Do even Greer? Okay? Cool?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
And we you know, I just want to hear what
your take is on that, you know, close encounters of
the fifth kind using meditation to make contact with an
extraterrestrial being of some sort.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
Well, I have a kind of funny story, but so
I went to the dentist fairly recently in the past year,
and I had a fucked up tooth. So I got
laughing gas. And then when I got home that night,
I was meditating because I just was like, I feel bizarre,
I am in pain, I'm going to meditate, And that
(07:48):
night I had the most psychedelic experience. I fully connected
to something where I saw a gray It's like the
quintessential grit And this is all through meditation.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
Granted, earlier in the day there was laughing ass involved.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
But something about the combination, it was like it opened
my mind up through getting like a cavity filed, which
I didn't understand and I still don't understand. But it
was one of the experiences that made me want to
start a podcast about it because I was like, this
is just I don't know what it is, but it's
real and I can feel it and I feel it
(08:25):
inside of me and I'm seeing it and I'm interacting
with this being and I don't know if it's an alien.
I don't know if it's just myself. I don't know
if I'm trippin'. I don't know if this is just
hardcore meditation. I don't know what it is. But it
felt very much like I met God through meditation and
laughing gas earlier in the day.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
And it's fascinating this story because you may have been
participating in a very ancient phenomenon that our species has
experienced since really since before we had language to write
it down, through things like meditation, through certain religious rituals,
even just you know, prayer becomes a kind of meditation
(09:10):
as well, or the ritualistic ingestice of certain things. People
have felt that they have not only had an experience
with some sort of higher reality or higher entity or
being or God, but this experience stays with people afterwards.
So do you feel like when you described this, do
(09:31):
you feel like part of you still vividly is experiencing it.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Yeah, it was a really jarring in a beautiful way.
It was very darring experience that I can't really explain.
And when you try to talk about it, I know
it sounds just like girl, you were high. But I
felt it inside of my body and fully experienced something
(09:56):
that I've been searching for my whole life, and I
met that. I don't know if it's the highest version
of myself, almost like if I were to evolve so
much that I would become like the highest version of
my consciousness. I don't know if it was that or
if it was a separate being, but it all felt
very connected as well, So it made me just feel like, oh,
(10:20):
now I'm on this quest to try to find as
much information out as possible on how we're all connected
and how to reach that level of being able to
see how interconnected we are, and not only with each other,
but with like our molecules, and with plants, and with
animals and maybe with extraterrestrials. We're all just so connected.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I think the thing that's fascinating too about the direction
that psychedelic research has gone in is it's become a
lot more mainstream. There's a lot more clinical studies going
into it in terms of how it can affect things
like addiction, things like depression or PTSD, And to me,
a lot of that has to do with exactly what
you're talking about. This ability to give you this kind
(11:02):
of neta perspective and sort of free you from the
trappings of your own mind, where it's so easy to
get caught up in patterns, many of which are very bad,
like tobacco addiction or heroin addiction, or any kind of
abusive behavior, or even negative self talk aka like depression.
These are just patterns and it's easy to get caught
in them within your own mind. But when you take
these types of substances, as we're going to get into,
(11:24):
it sort of, I don't know, it sounds cheesy to say,
expands your mind, but it sort of allows you to
look down outside of yourself and see those connections and
realize that you are a part of a larger fabric
and you are interconnected. And that is not only the
memory of that is not only comforting, it is seemingly
what helps break those bad associations and those bad connections
(11:44):
because you're sort of trapped, you're sort of locked in,
and this sort of like breaks you out a little bit.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
Yes, and I have seen people that I know that
have experienced really beautiful and enlightening experiences on psychedelics, and
it just makes me wonder, what's the possibility with these
And I really would love for them to be studied
(12:11):
because as someone who suffers from PTSD, I suffer from anxiety,
I suffer from depression. And if I go to a
doctor and they prescribe me an antidepress and I feel
very safe knowing that it's been studied and how much
to take, and it just makes me feel not anxious
because I'm already an anxious person. So I like knowing, like
how much to take. It's been studied, and this is
(12:32):
like what you're supposed to do. I somehow like that structure.
And I would hope that we can study the things
that come from the earth and natural things that have
been part of rituals like you were saying, of ancient
civilizations forever, and see how the natural things could affect
our brains and that have been affecting other people and
(12:54):
enlightening them and having us all kind of experience this
God connection sometimes when you like let yourself go there.
And I would love to see the antidepressant qualities if
they were studied scientifically.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
There are some pretty there are some pretty compelling studies
going on right now. We're a little bit as a
species in at least in this era where we're in
our infancy, studying this well. I guess you could say
the human species is in its infancy in many ways.
But what we've found is when I say we, I
(13:27):
mean the experts, not just Matt and Nola myself. But
what we found is that there there is this commonality,
this revelatory, this epiphany that people have reported throughout human history.
One very beautiful modern version of this effect has nothing
(13:48):
to do with psychedelics. Technically, it's the experience astronauts feel
when they view Earth from space. It's called the overview effect,
and it's yeah, and it's like, you know, it's instantly
getting zapped with some greater feeling of divinity. And when
we what I love about your point about studying the
(14:10):
natural world. A lot of this research has been stymied,
you know, by societies of the time, by things like
you know, political initiatives like a war on drugs. But
if we look at some psychedelics, if we look at
DMT specifically, we find that it's about as natural as
you can get because our bodies produce it.
Speaker 5 (14:30):
Yes, everyone has it in our We have it in
our brains, So it's as natural as it, Like you said,
it's as natural.
Speaker 6 (14:37):
As it you could possibly get. We have it in us.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
So I'm so curious on the on the studies that
you guys have read up on. I read one thing
that people that went into taking DMT, twenty five percent
of the people that go in and do DMT do
not believe in God. They come out of the experience
and there's only ten percent of people that don't believe
in God. So there's a fifteen percent of people that
(15:00):
through this drug that is inside of all of our
brains by experiencing the drug.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
Than believe in God.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
I just think that that's something really interesting. It's something
I want to know more about. It's something I feel
like we should all want to know more about. I
would love something that would prove that there's God and
make us all feel more connected and more empathetic towards
each other and maybe treat each other better.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Oh gosh, yes, I mean I mean for me, like,
I don't believe in the Christian God, I don't believe
in like Jehovah, but I believe in the something, and
that experience for me largely has to do with things
that I remember from past experiences, like what we're talking about.
Speaker 7 (15:40):
I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it really doesn't.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
And again, just really quick disclaimer too, We are not
doing an episode saying go try drugs. This is all
about personal choice, This is all about the research behind
it and the way it kind of weaves into culture
and society, all of these big picture things. So it's
definitely not us saying go out there and try all
the psychedelics. But there, you know, it is becoming much
(16:03):
more mainstream. In Another study that I wanted to bring
up is done by Johns Hopkins and they did kind
of a place called a randomized clinical trial of twenty
four participants. Actually mentioned this on a recent news episode
of the podcast with Major Depressive Disorder, and they those
who received quote immediate psilocybin assisted therapy compared with delayed
(16:25):
showed improvement in blinded clinical rather clinician radar assessed depression severity.
In other words, the ones that got it right away
were less depressed than the ones that either got placebo
or got it delayed. So studies like this are leading
to things like IPOs of companies that are trying to
get you know, FDA approval for psilocybin based treatments or
(16:48):
even what's the word synthesizing psilocybin that can be then
mass produced and used to whether it's microdosing or whatever
it is, to actually help people. So I think that
can't be denied. And I think it's sort of missing
the point when people demonize things like this or the
idea of the war on drugs and all that, and
to me, it's more about big Pharma not liking this
stuff same.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Oh my god, I was gonna say that, but I
wasn't sure if I was allowed to say that. Oh okay,
because I think that big pharma obviously is making a
fuck ton of money off of people being depressed, being
anxious and needing medication. And what would happen if the
medication was coming from the earth and inside of our
(17:31):
own brains. I think A who take a lot of
money away from people, and b once you.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Connect to I really hate the word god. I think
there's so much baggage with it. So I'm with you.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
It's more just like your higher consciousness and the connection
of all of us in the same way that you're saying,
like when astronauts go to space, how it's just we're
all connected, We're all part of this.
Speaker 7 (17:54):
I like calling it the universe.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
That seems to be too But I think even to
what Ben saying about that astronaut experience. That's like literally
seeing your place in the universe. And to me, that's
the connection that I feel, you know, with like like
time and history and the stars. You know, that's just
the word I like to use the same.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And we'll be back diving further into this conversation after
a word from our sponsor, and we're back.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Let's dive right back into our conversation with Kesha.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I'd like to take it back to D and T
because the research is here, but it's not to the point.
You know, Kesha, A lot of the folks in our
audience today are in the exact same place you are,
and candidly that I am where where the idea is. Look,
I would love for there to be cures to these things.
Big Pharma does sell services, not cures. That's their business model.
(18:52):
But I would love to have these solutions. But I
want I want the research to be there, you know,
I want.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
To want it to be okay, I want to I
want to don't I know, as much of like a
rule breaker as I'm supposed to be. I don't want
to ingest some shit that hasn't been studied I'm sorry,
and I just wish that I wish it was just
a little bit more accepted so I could know what's
okay and what would be helpful for things that I
(19:18):
suffer from. And also it's worth mentioning. I think that
some of these medicines, these plant based medicines, might encourage
higher consciousness, They might encourage I think they do encourage enlightenment.
And I don't think enlightenment is good for a big
farm of business, and I don't think it's good for capitalism,
and I don't think it's good for politics. Like I
(19:42):
think it's a little bit of a scary concept for
us all to be enlightened, because then we're not going
to be sitting on our phones like depressed, shopping and
like doing all the team.
Speaker 7 (19:56):
I just heard that, and it's so right, It is
so right that to all volved.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
I really truly think that enlightenment is not good for politics,
and OH agreed.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
And I think that some of these natural medicines may
or may not. But through studying and reading about the studies,
it seems like they are encouraging people to feel more
connected and finding some sort of higher power. And I
don't think that's necessarily a good thing for a lot
of business.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
A new era of happiness is not exactly what a
status quo of unhappiness seeks, right, and especially there's a
if there's a profit motive involved. That's another big deal
is unless some of these substances are derived or synthesized
in such a way that they can be patented, then
(20:52):
no one can really own them, which I think is
a huge problem for some of those corporate interests.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Yeah, of course there isn't an interest if you can
get them from the earth and in your brain, even
just through like deep meditation, like and you can find enlightenment.
I don't think it's as encouraged as maybe taking medicine
from you know, whichever big farm a company. And that's
sad to me because it's it's like at our fingertips
(21:19):
as animals on this earth, like we could be so
it could be so easily accessible to things that could
help with PTSD and depression and anxiety and things that
I think a lot of people these days suffer from.
I mean, look the fucking world right now, right it's.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Twenty twenty one. If you're not depressed, are you not
paying attention?
Speaker 7 (21:39):
Are you alive, right, Well.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah, I want to get back really quickly just to
the underlying science of some of this stuff, just so
we understand what we're talking about and what the effect
psychedelics actually have on your brain. And I think this
is a very important thing. We've talked about serotonin and
how important and how important that is in the human
brain in our lives, and what psychedelics do when you're
(22:03):
experiencing as an individual the psychedelic effect, let's say, what's
actually happening is your serotonin two A receptor is being targeted,
and then essentially sections of your brain are communicating with
other sections that generally wouldn't be communicating with one another,
and that's why you're going to get strange sensations like
(22:25):
maybe seeing something, maybe hearing something, the hallucinations that generally
occur if you're looking at it on a biochemical level
of you know, things firing in your brain, that's what's occurring.
The weird thing is that those new connections that are
made after you're coming down from your trip or your
the feeling of that, you know, feeling really good on
(22:48):
one of these substances, your brain essentially has reset many
connections back to a more baseline level, which is.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Your pre addiction level to that's and I love the
point that you're making there. This is to me, candidly,
one of the most amazing things about these experiences that
gets reported is sinnesthesia. You know, a certain amount of mine.
Synesthesia is when your is when your sensory inputs are switched.
(23:17):
So like I have low level synesthesia, so sounds have
textures for me, but for other people sounds have colors.
Like the writer Nabokov was convinced that every sound in
the languages he spoke had a color and a texture.
And when what Matt's talking about here, with those pathways
(23:38):
getting reset, sometimes the sensory inputs get reset too, and
you hear you know, you hear the word los Angeles
and you're like, wow, the word los Angeles smells like toast.
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Oh wait, am I having a seizure? Okay, now, it's
just synesthesia. And also it's often described or attributed to
artistic types who have those kind of crossed wires in
terms of being able to experience sound as texture. It
kind of predisposes you to maybe thinking of being able
to almost like paint with sound. You know or create
sonic textures, because that's just sort of how you interpret
(24:14):
them differently than somebody that maybe has the regular wirings.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
I may have this because when I write songs, I
usually think of them in like a color scheme. I'm
very visual, so and then when I sing sometimes I'll
just accidentally close my eyes and realize I'm closing my
eyes and seeing all like the emotions go with certain colors.
Speaker 6 (24:35):
So is that as you're talking.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
About, Yes, that is a type of That is a
type of synesthesia. And this is you know, as Lil said,
this is something that's often associated with artists, with musicians,
with sculptors. It's something that people have who have never
thought of this might experience when they are when they
(24:57):
have ingested or encountered one of these substances that we're
talking about. And the thing that's the most irritating about this,
I'll say I once I'll leave it alone. There were
studies on this kind of stuff in the sixties and seventies,
and those studies yes exactly, yes, yeah, And those studies
got shut down because you know, there's always a war
(25:20):
on some sort of idea. And if those studies had
not been shut down. We could have made so much
more progress already, I know, in terms of treating PTSD
and depression, anxiety and all these troubling conditions. But I
know a lot of our listeners are going to be
(25:41):
thinking about that. I would say to those of us
listening along at home, you know, don't don't lose too
much time worrying about what could have happened, because we
can't really change the past, but we can change the future,
and we can make a difference for not just ourselves,
but the generation's coming after us. And I'm so glad
that so many doctors when we dive down into the
(26:01):
science here we see we see very strange commonalities, things
that don't usually happen in medicine, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Speaking of diving down into science, I think one of
my favorite deep deep, slightly deep cut psychedelic experimentations was
by John C. Lilly involving bottlenosed dolphins and sensory deprivation
tanks and inspired the films The Day of the Dolphin
in Altered States. And he believed that through LSD he
could communicate with dolphins like psychically. So that kind of
(26:32):
thinking has been around for a long time. This idea
that this opens you up and tunes you into frequencies
you wouldn't otherwise be able to experience. And yes, he
came off as a bit of a quack. He even
there was I think there was some talk of some
low key dolphin sex.
Speaker 6 (26:47):
Perhaps the dolphin guy.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, yeah, the head dolphin hedge guy it was.
Speaker 7 (26:53):
It was his assistant. Oh okay, but he lived with
them in a flooded apartment.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Basically, wait, who is this?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
John Lily was his name?
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (27:05):
John C. Lily.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Okay, Can I just tell you a funny story that
has nothing to do It has to do with when
I was on tour, which I missed dearly, but we
were all playing like a game on the bus. A
couple of my texts were a little inebriated, I must say.
They had a couple of beers. And because of this
story about this man, my tech bought the website Dolphin
(27:31):
Sex Man. So if you go to that website, it
costs ninety nine cents to buy, and that's owned by
my guitar tech.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
How is the how is the stock on that U
R L not higher than that? By now, I mean,
come on, that's a genius name.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
But but no, it's true, and like there were other
fringe experiments like this going on. I think Timothy Leary
is the is the big the biggie, but it all
still was kind of wrapped up in this like sort
of wild westness of the sixties, whereas now it's a
lot more clinical, and it's in a good way, not
the way people use clinical as a bad word. But
(28:09):
and I think that's really fascinating, And it's also fascinating
that it's taken this long for it to kind of
come back around.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
You know.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Well, I just think that it's probably a threat to
other kinds of medicine. And I don't know that, but
it seems like, why wouldn't we explore what is naturally
occurring in our brains and on the earth if it
is seemingly helping people. And I just would like to
(28:36):
see where the research goes, because, like I said earlier,
I'm not, like you said, not encouraging people to go
like trip balls right now.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
I don't encourage that. It would probably be a terrible
idea right now.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
But I think that I would just be curious what
these natural substances could bring into our consciousness because it
seems like overwhelmingly, so the research has shown that has
been pretty positive.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
One of thing Ben you found was that, like studies
have shown that psilocybin mushrooms in particular are about the
safest thing you can do, Like right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, there's there's no One of the oddest things is
that for many, many drugs, many substances called drugs, there
is an overdose threshold, right, and psilocybin apparently doesn't have
that or it has not been reached. In the entirety
of human history. No one has managed to overdose in
(29:33):
like a physically deletorious way on this stuff. It's it's
strange because I think the experiments with communication with non
human intelligences in the case of dolphins and such, I
think that is an iteration of the larger and older
belief that we are meeting some sort of entity or
(29:55):
people are people are meeting something? And I love your
point earlier, Kesha, where you said, you know, is it
a higher version of oneself?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Is it you know?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Are we having a more honest self realization? Or as
multiple cultures have argued, is is there something there? That's
when that's when we see these weird commonalities come into play.
It is It is nothing short of bizarre for so
many things like this to be reported by different people
(30:25):
from different backgrounds in such a similar way, and their
cultural lens, you know, changes it a little. You'll have
people say I met machine els, or I met an angel,
or I met aliens. And what I think is so
fascinating about this is not only are they describing the
(30:46):
same kind of thing, but they're describing the same kind
of experience. They're not just witnessing or beholding something. They feel,
they are in conversation, in communion with it. And and
just just for of course, like a full disclaimer when
we're talking about these studies, none of these people were
(31:07):
just given LSD or given magic mushrooms. It was part
of a monitored like treatment program where you checked in
and you had therapy and you had group sessions. So
please don't think we're talking about mad scientists just you know,
pulling an mk ultra on people.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
They are like fake shamans.
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Those are also a nightmare, just people that claim to
be shamans that aren't, Like there are real shamans though,
Like when I was in Peru, I did not participate,
but there's like a whole ayahuasca community where you can
go into the jungle and take ayahuasca. Now, I am
too much of a pussy because it sounds terrifying and
(31:46):
kind of horrible because you barf and poop everywhere, and
I was just like, no, but I have heard and
read that. You know, people I've spoken to have said
it changed their life. So I just would love to
see the research on it, because again going back to
I'm kind of a pussy, I just like I want
to know the research about it.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
The idea of a bad trip, too, I think, is
like a thing that this sort of has this like
weight to it. But sometimes I think what you're describing,
you know, could be almost like an on purpose bad
trip that forces you to confront bad shit that's in
your mind, you know. And I think that's where a
bad trip comes from, is where your head is at
before you ingest said substance, and if you're dealing with
demons that's going to come out and manifest itself in
(32:30):
your experience, and then you have a shaman who could
walk you through it and literally slay those psychic demons
that manifest themselves in quote unquote a bad trip. So
I think, you know, it's not. It's all about the
individual brain and the individual human and what they're going
through and what they're experiencing as to what happens in
one of these types of situations.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Oh, and we're going to take just a quick break
after that, and we'll return in a moment.
Speaker 7 (33:01):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I have a secular reason why the I believe the
rituals are important. If you're listening and you don't believe
in any higher plane or any kind of spiritual stuff,
if you're a very secular person, then consider the two
main factors of psychedelic experiences are seeing and setting. Scene
is kind of your external environment. We could even call
(33:22):
setting your mental environment. And so when you have a
ritual like ayahuasca, those rituals are not really meant to
be fun. For my understanding, it's supposed to be an important,
impactful thing and not entirely pleasant. Because I think you're
right about the barfing, which was a big turn up
for me.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
According to friend of mine, it was like a very
unpleasant experience, but the afterwards just felt so much like
spiritually and spiritually lighter and a little bit more free
of the demons that they had been experiencing, you know,
for a large part of their life, and I think
(34:03):
it's like a purging of those demons, like you were saying.
At least to them, it was.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, that makes sense, and so we see science supporting this.
The Journal of Psychopharmacology did a study with over two
five hundred people about DMT, you know, the active ingredient
in ayahuasca. And that study they didn't get rookies. They
only took people who had done ingested DMT in some
(34:31):
form like a baker's dozen times throughout their lives, which
my opinion is a lot, but you know, I'm not
an expert on that one. What they found was that
ninety nine percent of people had a profound and lasting
emotional response to your point, They weren't. It's not like
they it's not like if somebody drinks booze and they
(34:51):
get drunk for a night. These people something changed about
their mentality that stayed with them. They felt they were
eighty one percent felt they were in a metareality. They
had broken through the matrix. They were experiencing the overview effect,
and they all, like described they all said they felt
(35:11):
like they met something, even if it was just themselves.
Which is the weirdest part because you know that leads
some fringe writers to say, well, what if these things
we've been calling aliens and all these stories of UFOs
throughout generations, what if those are just somehow the same
thing we've encountered during intense periods of meditation, or maybe
(35:33):
intense periods of psychic turmoil, or maybe when there's a
ritual ingestion of these substances. I don't know. It's exciting
because again, this doesn't really happen in scientific research. There's
usually much more of an outlier.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
Well, and there's I like that there's a spiritual connection
in science. I love it when they converge. I love
when you go into something and you can come out
and a lot of people then all sudden believe in
a higher power or a higher consciousness or the universe
or God or whatever you want to call it. To me,
that just is pointing to, well, what is that experience doing.
(36:10):
It's obviously doing something positive for people. It's making them
feel more less alone, and whether it's they have themselves
or they or they're less alone in the universe because
they believe in alien or they're less alone because they
found a god type figure. I just think that it
doesn't seem like a bad thing, So I think that
it's worth exploring.
Speaker 6 (36:32):
And if we all were to evolve, what would that
look like? Like feel less alone?
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Like?
Speaker 5 (36:40):
I just wonder, like, how would that change society? I
think it might be beautiful.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Well, a lot of us wouldn't be as good matrix
batteries for you know, uh, consumeris I don't.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
Okay, here's the thing I have to tell on myself.
I've never seen the Matrix. I had a very weird
high school experience where I was not alone to watch
a lot of movies or TV, and I had to
go outside and write songs and sew things. So I
never got to see. Like, there's so many movies I've
never seen. I've never seen Harry Potter. I've never seen
(37:13):
the Matrix. So when you're making all the Matrix references,
I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Explain it, Okay, So in the Matrix, No, I'm just
everyone in.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
The world the Matrix. Everyone in the world has seen it.
Speaker 5 (37:24):
I feel like a complete jackass, and I'm going to
watch it today.
Speaker 7 (37:27):
Well exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
It's doing a good job of pop culturizing a thing
that you're probably already aware of, the idea that we're
all just cogs in this like machine that is like
something that's happening beyond our our consciousness or our awareness.
We're being used by a greater power as like a
tool for their benefit, not ours.
Speaker 7 (37:48):
Is that about the size of it.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Yeah, And there's there's a false world that we are
actually experiencing in the real world video game essentially like
that where human beings are physically plugged into a machine
and our batteries for this other bigger machine. But we
are in a virtual reality world that is like Earth
(38:13):
and all of this stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
It's Plato's action.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
The not surprise me, none of that is that's like
kind of what I think probably might be happening anyways.
And whether we're somewhere else being plugged into this, we're
definitely plugged into this, Like I'm having a conversation with
a bunch of people that are elsewhere yet we are
here together.
Speaker 6 (38:40):
Like that still trips me out. I know it should
be normal to you by now, But.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
The Plato's Cave thing, I think is the most appropriate
kind of little parable for all of this. Ben you know,
isn't that the one where you're sort of chained in place,
staring at a screen basically, and there's shadows on the
wall that represent things, but aren't actually the things themselves.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Well, so wouldn't In the story of Plato's cavern, which
is which is just it's a banger as far as
stories go. In this story, there are there are just
as just as you said, there are people who have
spent the entirety of their lives in this cave with
the with a fire or an entrance behind them, so
(39:20):
all that they can see are the shadows cast by
these objects. So the problem with it is that because
they're changed, they cannot look to the left or right. Symbolically,
they cannot change their perspective, so they are they can
only see these shadows of other things. And the question
(39:43):
is what happens when they escape the cave. If somebody
escapes the cave and they leave this false world to
the real world or the over world, whatever you want
to call it, would they understand what was happening? Would
they be blinded by the light, would they like knowing
(40:04):
the overall reality? Or would they say this is crazy.
Take me back to the cave. I've seen a real horse,
and the shadows of horses are way less frightening.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
I mean, I sometimes feel that way, like this past
year is the first time I've slowed down since I
was eighteen nineteen years old. Like it's just been like
a wild ride, and it's been very.
Speaker 6 (40:29):
Self involved.
Speaker 5 (40:30):
I mean, I'm promoting myself, singing songs about myself. Let's
just be honest. It's like it's a lot about me.
And so this is the first year I've got to
really stop and look at everyone else in the world
and everything else there could be, and it is it's uncomfortable,
like growing and going out of the.
Speaker 6 (40:50):
Cave, which I feel like.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
It's like I feel like I've been creeping out of
the cave slowly this year and it's super uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (40:56):
But once you once you see it, you can't go back,
That's right, you can't.
Speaker 5 (41:02):
So once you open the doors, Like, it's not necessarily comfortable,
but I do think that it's making me a more aware,
conscious person, and it's not necessarily comfortable or easy. But
you know, I'm on a different trip. So here we go.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
So Kesha on this trip. It appears, at least on
websites across the internet that you are going to be
getting onto a cruise at some point later this year.
Is that really happening?
Speaker 5 (41:35):
No, I'm not sure it's the best idea. This really
depends on the vaccine, so it depends on like how
COVID is going. But I am supposed to go on
a Casher cruise, which I know sounds like probably hell
to you guys, And for me, I'd never been on
a cruise.
Speaker 6 (41:53):
Before, so I was like, oh, I don't know how
this is going to go.
Speaker 5 (41:55):
And it was like the greatest three and a half
four days of my entire life. But it's also like
TVD to see how COVID works out, and then by
then we're going to know about aliens a little bit
because of the disclosure exactly.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
So, Ah, that is a segue and a half right there.
I think we dive right in to the news.
Speaker 7 (42:18):
Ben, Yes, yes, this is something.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
So since we're talking about peeking behind the curtain of reality,
let's look by behind the curtain of today's episode. Kesha You,
Matt Nol and I were talking in advance of this
call and we were like, well, what are cool things
we want to discuss? You know, what would we like
to explore together. And you said something very interesting. You
(42:43):
told us, You told us in paraphrasing like disclosure.
Speaker 7 (42:48):
Guys.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Also, I think disclosure is it's going to be a thing.
It's coming up. A disclosure for anyone who listens to
this show and somehow doesn't know what we're talking about.
Is the idea that there will be information released regarding
either the presence of intelligent non human beings you can
call them aliens if you want, or there will be
(43:10):
something even further like a government saying, hey, we've actually
interacted with these folks, and now we're going to tell you, well, folks.
Keasha told us back in December, I think there's I
think there's something on the way, and it turns out
that you were right.
Speaker 6 (43:32):
You will feel it.
Speaker 5 (43:33):
I can feel it coming in the air. I swear
to god, I could just feel it. I feel like
the media is starting to slowly introduce the ideas of
extraterrestrial or.
Speaker 6 (43:47):
You know whatever.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
I'm going to call them aliens because it's the easiest term,
but some sort of life, and they're going to just
sneak it in to you know, social media. It's going
to sneak into new York Times. It's going to sneak
in like TMZ, We're gonna get all these places and
just make people a little more comfortable with the idea
that this is coming.
Speaker 6 (44:07):
And I can just.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
Feel it slowly getting integrated into conversations more and it's
getting less taboo and less crazy and more legitimate. And
you keep seeing more videos and more people talking about it.
And now they are going to release how many all
the information?
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yes, yes, the hidden in the COVID Relief Bill of
the United States, there's this look like if you go
down in the Matroshka dolls enough, there's this one little
piece where they said, oh, by the way, the CIA
has one hundred and eighty days to release everything they
ever knew about UFOs since the formation of the CIA. Basically,
(44:50):
so you called it all that.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Stuff though the little we talked about this, that's all
called pork. I guess where you know it's like a
quid pro quoe, like we'll give you your thing if you
give us our thing. Who pushed for that? Like, who's
pushing for that to be wrapped up in this completely
unrelated bill.
Speaker 6 (45:05):
Well, that's what I'm wondering. Is it totally unrelated.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Well, I mean that's another discussion there. But Matt, I
saw your eyes light up when I was asking that question.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
We found out it was Mark or Rubio. I think this.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Time around that that surprised me this time around. Yeah,
the guy who drinks the water weird. That guy, yeah,
didn't expect it now.
Speaker 6 (45:35):
Also drinks water really weird.
Speaker 7 (45:38):
He holds it with like with with a finger and
a thumb on each hand to a small child.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Okay, so yeah, so again they kissed the lip of
the bottle, which is weird.
Speaker 7 (45:51):
It's like a pucker.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Anyway, Anyway, people should drink water the way they wish,
I guess. But uh, but yeah, this is this is
a part of a larger pattern. So Marco Rubio being
a supporter of this really surprised us on this show.
But there were other people before him, like Harry Reid
came out and said that he wanted to that there
(46:14):
was stuff they don't want you to know. I'm sorry,
I said the title and the conversation such, but said
there was. He said that there were things that needed
to be made public, and he didn't. I don't think
either of them went so far as to say definitely aliens,
but they said there are things that we have seen
(46:35):
that we cannot explain and the public needs needs to know.
Marco Rubio said he had a quote where he said,
you know, really it might be better if it's aliens,
because otherwise it's a it's another country that's doing things
we don't understand and normalizing.
Speaker 5 (46:51):
Normalizing, yes, so our brains can become accustomed to it
not being that far out.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
I mean, I think you make a really great point too,
because my initial reaction is like, why are these stories
not making bigger news? Why are these not like big
massive headlines, you know about the whatever that video that
Tom DeLong kind of pushed out where it was like
some navy pilots literally commenting on what the hell is this.
Speaker 7 (47:14):
Thing that they're seeing.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
It was kind of below the fold type stuff or
like more Internet EA stuff, And it still doesn't even
this is the kind of stuff we would find out about,
but it's like not massive news. And I think you're right,
it is sort of a normalization effect. And whether that's
by design or people have just been pre programmed to
kind of ignore this stuff or think it's all bogus,
(47:36):
it's fascinating. None nonetheless, and I'm really looking forward to
keeping an eye on as it develops.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
Kind of you know, yes, me too. And we were
talking about this earlier. I'm on keshing the Creepies. I
talked to Demi Lovado and she talked all about these
insane experiences she had, like such a trip and like
my mind was blown. And the only thing that news
picked up on was that we both dyed our hair.
Speaker 6 (48:04):
Oh and we're both sitting.
Speaker 5 (48:08):
There talking about how we want to how we've like
I'm talking about how I met God and she's played
with aliens, and like they just picked up on our hair.
Speaker 6 (48:17):
It's just so bizarre.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Well, I'll tell you what the most bizarre thing is.
This is what disclosure is going to be. We're going
to find out that the machine elves that we experienced
through meditation and DMT are the actual extraterrestrials. And you
don't get to them by going out there, you get
to them by going in here. Yes, that's going to be.
Speaker 5 (48:35):
I think they might be in here and out there
because I think we're all microcosms of the same thing.
Like we're all like a bunch of people running around
on Earth. We're like the molecules of the Earth and
then you go out and I think once extraterrestrial life
is kind of I think we're just going to realize
we're all just microcosms and it just keeps getting bigger,
(48:57):
and you could zoom out or you can zoom in,
and it's all connected. And I think that's the part
that brings me a little bit of peace, knowing we're
all connected, but also wanting other people to like see
it too, because we're all connected.
Speaker 6 (49:13):
I wish we would stop yes, well.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
And stop stop acting otherwise, right, super symmetry.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
And I have to say from the start, when we
met and I found out about your show, I thought
you have such an intuitive connectedness about you that makes
you a great interviewer. And you're really good at putting
these pieces together and pulling these stories out of people.
And that's why I think everyone should go check out
Kesha and the Creepies. You touch on the kinds of
stuff we touch on this show and everything in between.
(49:42):
It's just about being human and that's why I think
it's such a fun special show. And you've got I'm
lucky that I know you're kind of deep cut list
of stuff in the future, and there's some really cool
folks on there that I will not spoil, but tune
in and download it and subscribe on all the podcast
places today. You won't be sorry.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Thanks guys, Oh, thank you so much for your time Kesha.
Today we in addition to Waddie, to thank you, we
do have to have to say there there's so many
more things that we could explore, and there are so
many more things, as Noel said, that you and your
guest explore on your show, which has multiple episodes available
(50:23):
now do check it out. We're not blowing spoke. We
actually listened to this show too and enjoy it. One
one thing that I feel like we will be remiss
if we don't make the point to Matt's point and
your point about maybe the entities we encounter being something
we encounter by journeying and work.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
There's there's a guy named Terence McKenna who has said
that he believes when people are having these experiences, they
may be encountering something hidden in our own DNA, which
we still don't fully understand. So we're just gonna just
gonna throw that at our listeners.
Speaker 6 (51:01):
I really do believe it.
Speaker 5 (51:03):
I don't know what it is, but I could just
feel like the more inward I go, the more when
I am acting out in the world, it makes me
just want to be a more conscious, better person. And
I feel like anything that takes you there, whether that's
meditation or just sitting with yourself or doing yoga or
you know, when the psychedelics are studied and it's safe
(51:27):
and it's kind of in a controlled legal way, it
might help people find that connectedness with themselves and maybe
each other in a higher power. And I just am
excited to see where that would take us all as
a society. Like I think evolution, it could be like
a really beautiful evolution and enlightenment, and God, what if
(51:49):
we all came to peace with each other.
Speaker 6 (51:52):
Wouldn't that be the safe?
Speaker 3 (51:53):
Wouldn't that be amazing?
Speaker 1 (51:54):
You'll have to come back on the.
Speaker 7 (51:55):
Show when that happens.
Speaker 5 (52:00):
I mean, the insurrection was like what six days ago,
So I'm trying to stay positive and hopeful here. But
you guys should come on my show and we can
talk about.
Speaker 6 (52:09):
Wood lot more creepy.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Absolutely absolutely well. I know you got a skewed but
thanks so much for your time. And this has been
an absolute pleasure. Really. Like Ben said, there's a million
other things we could have talked about, and there's things
that we made notes on that we skipped over. But
I think this was a pretty fun, connected conversation going
from psychedelics to disclosure and all things in between, and
it didn't really feel like we jumped to shark.
Speaker 7 (52:31):
So I'm pretty happy about this.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
What a wild ride. Thank you again to Keshaw. We
explored disclosure. We explored psychedelics not just as medicine, but
as one of the many ways that people have endeavored
to cross the siege perilous and meet with a reality
that may lie beyond our own. Thanks to everybody for
(52:55):
tuning in. We want to hear from you. To the
degree that you are comfortable. We'd love to hear your
experiences with meditation, with supernatural or spiritual revelations, whether or
not psychedelics are involved. Please fill us tell us as
much or as little as you feel comfortable sharing. You
(53:16):
can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram.
You can find us on Twitter. We'd like to recommend
our Facebook page. Here's where it gets crazy. We've got
some brand new mods, so jump by, say hello and
show them some love. If you hate social media, if
you like Kesha like myself, have read the books about
why you should quit social media. We have another way
(53:39):
to get in contact with us. You can always give
us a phone call.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
That's right. Our number is one eight three three std WYTK.
Please talk to us about some encounter you've had with
an intelligent thing that you can't explain, whether it's a dolphin,
shadow creature, a person.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
I hear there are people out there.
Speaker 3 (53:59):
Yeah, people are cool, but especially if they're like more
arms than usual or eyes than usual. Yeah, please please
leave us a message about that. Like I said, one
eight three three std wy TK.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
If you don't want to call us, you can also
get in touch with us a slightly more old fashioned
internet based way.
Speaker 7 (54:19):
Why not write us a good.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Old fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (54:43):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Folks, we are returning with a classic interview segment that
we super enjoyed, and I'll be honest with you guys,
going into it, I wasn't sure exactly what to expect.
We managed to talk with the world famous musician and
incredibly brilliant force, none other than.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Kesha Kasha TikTok. She invented it, well, at least I
think it was named after her song clearly, so who
knew well, I don't know if we did at that time,
but yeah, Kesha, super super cool person, really fascinated by
a lot of the same stuff that we discuss on
this here show. And we talked about a lot of
those things with her in a super wide ranging conversation,
(00:42):
jumping from uf PHO disclosure to studies of the human brain,
on psychedelics, paranormal activity, ghost stories, all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
How did this come about? We knew Kesha from a
show or something, or she knew us.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yep, she had a show called Kesha and the Creepies
that we did on iHeart for a while. I think
it's still out there if you want to check it out.
It did not sadly continue, but the episodes that are there,
super cool It's Kasha talking to some very interesting people
from music and culture about paranormal happenings that they've experienced,
(01:16):
Folks like Trippy Red the Rapper, and it's really really
fun and Kasha is just a super cool person, very
open minded, very out there in the best possible way,
and we all vibe together pretty hard on this classic episode.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Let's jump in.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is My
name is Noah.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer. All mission control decands. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff
they don't want you to know. It should go without
saying for anybody who's check the title of today's episode
that this is a very special show for us. We
are in conversation with the award winning, multi platinum selling
(02:26):
recording artist, musical phenomenon and now host of our pure podcast,
Kesha and the Creepies, the one and only Kesha. You're
really here, Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Thanks for having me. And what if I'm just a
hologram of myself, It's not really.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Me, certainly possible, but Ben would be hype manning that
hologram like as best as I think I've ever heard. Doney,
thank you so much for joining us, Kesha. This is exciting.
Kesha and the Creepies is a show that I was
super excited to have a little bit of a hand
in kind of, you know, starting together on the network
and kind of work with you to get it on
the iHeart Network. And yeah, it felt from the start
(03:04):
like a good fit for our show because it's really
just an exploration of kind of all things creepy, all
things supernatural, psychedelic, bizarre. To tell us a little bit
upfront where this comes from, and as far as you're
fascination with this kind of stuff, sure.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
Well, I definitely think that you had more than just
a little bit of a hand in that You've been
very helpful in guiding me in the ways of making
a podcast, So I thank you for And I just
have always been fascinated with things that I don't understand.
I always find that that's the most magical part of life.
So I've always been drawn to trying to discover more
and more about it, But it turns out the more
(03:40):
I know, the more I realize I don't know. So
I just want to talk to all the people with
all the experiences and get all different perspectives. And that's
what my podcast is about, is just exploring different artists
and the experiences they've had.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
Cult leaders, a wizard, just you name it.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
I'm me into talking about weird shit, anything that's spiritual.
It's kind of like a podcast for whatever you want
to talk about that's just a little bit magical or unexplainable.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I greatly enjoyed the January first episode, pretty recent I Believe,
with parapsychologist doctor Caroline Watt.
Speaker 6 (04:20):
Yeah, that was so interesting for me at least.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Did you learn anything that surprised you in that particular episode.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
There was one thing that she told me that was
about fifty percent of people believe in the supernatural, but
in that fifty percent, praying is considered believing in the supernatural.
So if you are a person that's ever said a prayer,
you would fall into that category. And I have usually,
in moments of desperation, fallen to prayer as like a
(04:54):
very last option, like when I'm on a scary flight
or something, and apparently that that is is participating in
believing in the supernatural. And I didn't know that believing
in God would also be believing in the supernatural, but
I guess it totally makes sense.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
And yet so many of those folks might consider the
other realms of supernatural study and belief to be the
occult or in some way demonic or devil worshipers. I
think it's very ironic and fascinating. It never occurred to me,
but it absolutely is. What is praying, if not communicating
with the supernatural, with the other side, with some like
entity beyond this.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Realm and something that can help you if you just
talk to it that you can't see. So once you
said that, it kind of blew my mind, and I
realized that there are so many people that believe in
the supernatural, even if they're not aware that it's supernatural,
but it is just supernatural.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, arose by any other name.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Almost.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, this is the perfect setup for some of this
stuff we wanted to explore with you today because to
that earlier point about what is supernatur natural, we encounter
it through kind of our pre existing lens, our own
experiences as individual human beings. So one person might see
(06:10):
something and think it's an angel, right, one person might
see something to think it's a ghost.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
Or an alien or an alien. However, you kind of
have the.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
Words and the information that you've gotten through your whole
life of what that thing is. But I think we
might all be talking about the same thing at the
end of the day. My higher consciousness. Sometimes I'm like,
is that an alien?
Speaker 6 (06:37):
Is that just me?
Speaker 5 (06:38):
But my highest self? Is that just me meditating and
feeling fucking weird? I don't know, but it could kind
of fall under all those names.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Does it come from within me? Or am I tuning
into something beyond myself? Something external?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
You know?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
I think that's the most interesting question to me about
all of this stuff.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
Me too.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Oh my god. Okay, I want to hit on this
really quickly. You spoke recently with Demi Levado and she
described going to a retreat with a specific person that
we've spoken to on this show before, Steven Greer.
Speaker 6 (07:10):
Do even Greer? Okay? Cool?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
And we you know, I just want to hear what
your take is on that, you know, close encounters of
the fifth kind using meditation to make contact with an
extraterrestrial being of some sort.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
Well, I have a kind of funny story, but so
I went to the dentist fairly recently in the past year,
and I had a fucked up tooth. So I got
laughing gas. And then when I got home that night,
I was meditating because I just was like, I feel bizarre,
I am in pain, I'm going to meditate, And that
(07:48):
night I had the most psychedelic experience. I fully connected
to something where I saw a gray It's like the
quintessential grit And this is all through meditation.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
Granted, earlier in the day there was laughing ass involved.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
But something about the combination, it was like it opened
my mind up through getting like a cavity filed, which
I didn't understand and I still don't understand. But it
was one of the experiences that made me want to
start a podcast about it because I was like, this
is just I don't know what it is, but it's
real and I can feel it and I feel it
(08:25):
inside of me and I'm seeing it and I'm interacting
with this being and I don't know if it's an alien.
I don't know if it's just myself. I don't know
if I'm trippin'. I don't know if this is just
hardcore meditation. I don't know what it is. But it
felt very much like I met God through meditation and
laughing gas earlier in the day.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
And it's fascinating this story because you may have been
participating in a very ancient phenomenon that our species has
experienced since really since before we had language to write
it down, through things like meditation, through certain religious rituals,
even just you know, prayer becomes a kind of meditation
(09:10):
as well, or the ritualistic ingestice of certain things. People
have felt that they have not only had an experience
with some sort of higher reality or higher entity or
being or God, but this experience stays with people afterwards.
So do you feel like when you described this, do
(09:31):
you feel like part of you still vividly is experiencing it.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Yeah, it was a really jarring in a beautiful way.
It was very darring experience that I can't really explain.
And when you try to talk about it, I know
it sounds just like girl, you were high. But I
felt it inside of my body and fully experienced something
(09:56):
that I've been searching for my whole life, and I
met that. I don't know if it's the highest version
of myself, almost like if I were to evolve so
much that I would become like the highest version of
my consciousness. I don't know if it was that or
if it was a separate being, but it all felt
very connected as well, So it made me just feel like, oh,
(10:20):
now I'm on this quest to try to find as
much information out as possible on how we're all connected
and how to reach that level of being able to
see how interconnected we are, and not only with each other,
but with like our molecules, and with plants, and with
animals and maybe with extraterrestrials. We're all just so connected.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I think the thing that's fascinating too about the direction
that psychedelic research has gone in is it's become a
lot more mainstream. There's a lot more clinical studies going
into it in terms of how it can affect things
like addiction, things like depression or PTSD, And to me,
a lot of that has to do with exactly what
you're talking about. This ability to give you this kind
(11:02):
of neta perspective and sort of free you from the
trappings of your own mind, where it's so easy to
get caught up in patterns, many of which are very bad,
like tobacco addiction or heroin addiction, or any kind of
abusive behavior, or even negative self talk aka like depression.
These are just patterns and it's easy to get caught
in them within your own mind. But when you take
these types of substances, as we're going to get into,
(11:24):
it sort of, I don't know, it sounds cheesy to say,
expands your mind, but it sort of allows you to
look down outside of yourself and see those connections and
realize that you are a part of a larger fabric
and you are interconnected. And that is not only the
memory of that is not only comforting, it is seemingly
what helps break those bad associations and those bad connections
(11:44):
because you're sort of trapped, you're sort of locked in,
and this sort of like breaks you out a little bit.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
Yes, and I have seen people that I know that
have experienced really beautiful and enlightening experiences on psychedelics, and
it just makes me wonder, what's the possibility with these
And I really would love for them to be studied
(12:11):
because as someone who suffers from PTSD, I suffer from anxiety,
I suffer from depression. And if I go to a
doctor and they prescribe me an antidepress and I feel
very safe knowing that it's been studied and how much
to take, and it just makes me feel not anxious
because I'm already an anxious person. So I like knowing, like
how much to take. It's been studied, and this is
(12:32):
like what you're supposed to do. I somehow like that structure.
And I would hope that we can study the things
that come from the earth and natural things that have
been part of rituals like you were saying, of ancient
civilizations forever, and see how the natural things could affect
our brains and that have been affecting other people and
(12:54):
enlightening them and having us all kind of experience this
God connection sometimes when you like let yourself go there.
And I would love to see the antidepressant qualities if
they were studied scientifically.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
There are some pretty there are some pretty compelling studies
going on right now. We're a little bit as a
species in at least in this era where we're in
our infancy, studying this well. I guess you could say
the human species is in its infancy in many ways.
But what we've found is when I say we, I
(13:27):
mean the experts, not just Matt and Nola myself. But
what we found is that there there is this commonality,
this revelatory, this epiphany that people have reported throughout human history.
One very beautiful modern version of this effect has nothing
(13:48):
to do with psychedelics. Technically, it's the experience astronauts feel
when they view Earth from space. It's called the overview effect,
and it's yeah, and it's like, you know, it's instantly
getting zapped with some greater feeling of divinity. And when
we what I love about your point about studying the
(14:10):
natural world. A lot of this research has been stymied,
you know, by societies of the time, by things like
you know, political initiatives like a war on drugs. But
if we look at some psychedelics, if we look at
DMT specifically, we find that it's about as natural as
you can get because our bodies produce it.
Speaker 5 (14:30):
Yes, everyone has it in our We have it in
our brains, So it's as natural as it, Like you said,
it's as natural.
Speaker 6 (14:37):
As it you could possibly get. We have it in us.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
So I'm so curious on the on the studies that
you guys have read up on. I read one thing
that people that went into taking DMT, twenty five percent
of the people that go in and do DMT do
not believe in God. They come out of the experience
and there's only ten percent of people that don't believe
in God. So there's a fifteen percent of people that
(15:00):
through this drug that is inside of all of our
brains by experiencing the drug.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
Than believe in God.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
I just think that that's something really interesting. It's something
I want to know more about. It's something I feel
like we should all want to know more about. I
would love something that would prove that there's God and
make us all feel more connected and more empathetic towards
each other and maybe treat each other better.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Oh gosh, yes, I mean I mean for me, like,
I don't believe in the Christian God, I don't believe
in like Jehovah, but I believe in the something, and
that experience for me largely has to do with things
that I remember from past experiences, like what we're talking about.
Speaker 7 (15:40):
I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it really doesn't.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
And again, just really quick disclaimer too, We are not
doing an episode saying go try drugs. This is all
about personal choice, This is all about the research behind
it and the way it kind of weaves into culture
and society, all of these big picture things. So it's
definitely not us saying go out there and try all
the psychedelics. But there, you know, it is becoming much
(16:03):
more mainstream. In Another study that I wanted to bring
up is done by Johns Hopkins and they did kind
of a place called a randomized clinical trial of twenty
four participants. Actually mentioned this on a recent news episode
of the podcast with Major Depressive Disorder, and they those
who received quote immediate psilocybin assisted therapy compared with delayed
(16:25):
showed improvement in blinded clinical rather clinician radar assessed depression severity.
In other words, the ones that got it right away
were less depressed than the ones that either got placebo
or got it delayed. So studies like this are leading
to things like IPOs of companies that are trying to
get you know, FDA approval for psilocybin based treatments or
(16:48):
even what's the word synthesizing psilocybin that can be then
mass produced and used to whether it's microdosing or whatever
it is, to actually help people. So I think that
can't be denied. And I think it's sort of missing
the point when people demonize things like this or the
idea of the war on drugs and all that, and
to me, it's more about big Pharma not liking this
stuff same.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
Oh my god, I was gonna say that, but I
wasn't sure if I was allowed to say that. Oh okay,
because I think that big pharma obviously is making a
fuck ton of money off of people being depressed, being
anxious and needing medication. And what would happen if the
medication was coming from the earth and inside of our
(17:31):
own brains. I think A who take a lot of
money away from people, and b once you.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Connect to I really hate the word god. I think
there's so much baggage with it. So I'm with you.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
It's more just like your higher consciousness and the connection
of all of us in the same way that you're saying,
like when astronauts go to space, how it's just we're
all connected, We're all part of this.
Speaker 7 (17:54):
I like calling it the universe.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
That seems to be too But I think even to
what Ben saying about that astronaut experience. That's like literally
seeing your place in the universe. And to me, that's
the connection that I feel, you know, with like like
time and history and the stars. You know, that's just
the word I like to use the same.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And we'll be back diving further into this conversation after
a word from our sponsor, and we're back.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Let's dive right back into our conversation with Kesha.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
I'd like to take it back to D and T
because the research is here, but it's not to the point.
You know, Kesha, A lot of the folks in our
audience today are in the exact same place you are,
and candidly that I am where where the idea is. Look,
I would love for there to be cures to these things.
Big Pharma does sell services, not cures. That's their business model.
(18:52):
But I would love to have these solutions. But I
want I want the research to be there, you know,
I want.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
To want it to be okay, I want to I
want to don't I know, as much of like a
rule breaker as I'm supposed to be. I don't want
to ingest some shit that hasn't been studied I'm sorry,
and I just wish that I wish it was just
a little bit more accepted so I could know what's
okay and what would be helpful for things that I
(19:18):
suffer from. And also it's worth mentioning. I think that
some of these medicines, these plant based medicines, might encourage
higher consciousness, They might encourage I think they do encourage enlightenment.
And I don't think enlightenment is good for a big
farm of business, and I don't think it's good for capitalism,
and I don't think it's good for politics. Like I
(19:42):
think it's a little bit of a scary concept for
us all to be enlightened, because then we're not going
to be sitting on our phones like depressed, shopping and
like doing all the team.
Speaker 7 (19:56):
I just heard that, and it's so right, It is
so right that to all volved.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
I really truly think that enlightenment is not good for politics,
and OH agreed.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
And I think that some of these natural medicines may
or may not. But through studying and reading about the studies,
it seems like they are encouraging people to feel more
connected and finding some sort of higher power. And I
don't think that's necessarily a good thing for a lot
of business.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
A new era of happiness is not exactly what a
status quo of unhappiness seeks, right, and especially there's a
if there's a profit motive involved. That's another big deal
is unless some of these substances are derived or synthesized
in such a way that they can be patented, then
(20:52):
no one can really own them, which I think is
a huge problem for some of those corporate interests.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
Yeah, of course there isn't an interest if you can
get them from the earth and in your brain, even
just through like deep meditation, like and you can find enlightenment.
I don't think it's as encouraged as maybe taking medicine
from you know, whichever big farm a company. And that's
sad to me because it's it's like at our fingertips
(21:19):
as animals on this earth, like we could be so
it could be so easily accessible to things that could
help with PTSD and depression and anxiety and things that
I think a lot of people these days suffer from.
I mean, look the fucking world right now, right it's.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Twenty twenty one. If you're not depressed, are you not
paying attention?
Speaker 7 (21:39):
Are you alive, right, Well.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah, I want to get back really quickly just to
the underlying science of some of this stuff, just so
we understand what we're talking about and what the effect
psychedelics actually have on your brain. And I think this
is a very important thing. We've talked about serotonin and
how important and how important that is in the human
brain in our lives, and what psychedelics do when you're
(22:03):
experiencing as an individual the psychedelic effect, let's say, what's
actually happening is your serotonin two A receptor is being targeted,
and then essentially sections of your brain are communicating with
other sections that generally wouldn't be communicating with one another,
and that's why you're going to get strange sensations like
(22:25):
maybe seeing something, maybe hearing something, the hallucinations that generally
occur if you're looking at it on a biochemical level
of you know, things firing in your brain, that's what's occurring.
The weird thing is that those new connections that are
made after you're coming down from your trip or your
the feeling of that, you know, feeling really good on
(22:48):
one of these substances, your brain essentially has reset many
connections back to a more baseline level, which is.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Your pre addiction level to that's and I love the
point that you're making there. This is to me, candidly,
one of the most amazing things about these experiences that
gets reported is sinnesthesia. You know, a certain amount of mine.
Synesthesia is when your is when your sensory inputs are switched.
(23:17):
So like I have low level synesthesia, so sounds have
textures for me, but for other people sounds have colors.
Like the writer Nabokov was convinced that every sound in
the languages he spoke had a color and a texture.
And when what Matt's talking about here, with those pathways
(23:38):
getting reset, sometimes the sensory inputs get reset too, and
you hear you know, you hear the word los Angeles
and you're like, wow, the word los Angeles smells like toast.
That's crazy.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Oh wait, am I having a seizure? Okay, now, it's
just synesthesia. And also it's often described or attributed to
artistic types who have those kind of crossed wires in
terms of being able to experience sound as texture. It
kind of predisposes you to maybe thinking of being able
to almost like paint with sound. You know or create
sonic textures, because that's just sort of how you interpret
(24:14):
them differently than somebody that maybe has the regular wirings.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
I may have this because when I write songs, I
usually think of them in like a color scheme. I'm
very visual, so and then when I sing sometimes I'll
just accidentally close my eyes and realize I'm closing my
eyes and seeing all like the emotions go with certain colors.
Speaker 6 (24:35):
So is that as you're talking.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
About, Yes, that is a type of That is a
type of synesthesia. And this is you know, as Lil said,
this is something that's often associated with artists, with musicians,
with sculptors. It's something that people have who have never
thought of this might experience when they are when they
(24:57):
have ingested or encountered one of these substances that we're
talking about. And the thing that's the most irritating about this,
I'll say I once I'll leave it alone. There were
studies on this kind of stuff in the sixties and seventies,
and those studies yes exactly, yes, yeah, And those studies
got shut down because you know, there's always a war
(25:20):
on some sort of idea. And if those studies had
not been shut down. We could have made so much
more progress already, I know, in terms of treating PTSD
and depression, anxiety and all these troubling conditions. But I
know a lot of our listeners are going to be
(25:41):
thinking about that. I would say to those of us
listening along at home, you know, don't don't lose too
much time worrying about what could have happened, because we
can't really change the past, but we can change the future,
and we can make a difference for not just ourselves,
but the generation's coming after us. And I'm so glad
that so many doctors when we dive down into the
(26:01):
science here we see we see very strange commonalities, things
that don't usually happen in medicine, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Speaking of diving down into science, I think one of
my favorite deep deep, slightly deep cut psychedelic experimentations was
by John C. Lilly involving bottlenosed dolphins and sensory deprivation
tanks and inspired the films The Day of the Dolphin
in Altered States. And he believed that through LSD he
could communicate with dolphins like psychically. So that kind of
(26:32):
thinking has been around for a long time. This idea
that this opens you up and tunes you into frequencies
you wouldn't otherwise be able to experience. And yes, he
came off as a bit of a quack. He even
there was I think there was some talk of some
low key dolphin sex.
Speaker 6 (26:47):
Perhaps the dolphin guy.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, yeah, the head dolphin hedge guy it was.
Speaker 7 (26:53):
It was his assistant. Oh okay, but he lived with
them in a flooded apartment.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Basically, wait, who is this?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
John Lily was his name?
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (27:05):
John C. Lily.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Okay, Can I just tell you a funny story that
has nothing to do It has to do with when
I was on tour, which I missed dearly, but we
were all playing like a game on the bus. A
couple of my texts were a little inebriated, I must say.
They had a couple of beers. And because of this
story about this man, my tech bought the website Dolphin
(27:31):
Sex Man. So if you go to that website, it
costs ninety nine cents to buy, and that's owned by
my guitar tech.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
How is the how is the stock on that U
R L not higher than that? By now, I mean,
come on, that's a genius name.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
But but no, it's true, and like there were other
fringe experiments like this going on. I think Timothy Leary
is the is the big the biggie, but it all
still was kind of wrapped up in this like sort
of wild westness of the sixties, whereas now it's a
lot more clinical, and it's in a good way, not
the way people use clinical as a bad word. But
(28:09):
and I think that's really fascinating, And it's also fascinating
that it's taken this long for it to kind of
come back around.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
You know.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Well, I just think that it's probably a threat to
other kinds of medicine. And I don't know that, but
it seems like, why wouldn't we explore what is naturally
occurring in our brains and on the earth if it
is seemingly helping people. And I just would like to
(28:36):
see where the research goes, because, like I said earlier,
I'm not, like you said, not encouraging people to go
like trip balls right now.
Speaker 6 (28:43):
I don't encourage that. It would probably be a terrible
idea right now.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
But I think that I would just be curious what
these natural substances could bring into our consciousness because it
seems like overwhelmingly, so the research has shown that has
been pretty positive.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
One of thing Ben you found was that, like studies
have shown that psilocybin mushrooms in particular are about the
safest thing you can do, Like right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, there's there's no One of the oddest things is
that for many, many drugs, many substances called drugs, there
is an overdose threshold, right, and psilocybin apparently doesn't have
that or it has not been reached. In the entirety
of human history. No one has managed to overdose in
(29:33):
like a physically deletorious way on this stuff. It's it's
strange because I think the experiments with communication with non
human intelligences in the case of dolphins and such, I
think that is an iteration of the larger and older
belief that we are meeting some sort of entity or
(29:55):
people are people are meeting something? And I love your
point earlier, Kesha, where you said, you know, is it
a higher version of oneself?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Is it you know?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Are we having a more honest self realization? Or as
multiple cultures have argued, is is there something there? That's
when that's when we see these weird commonalities come into play.
It is It is nothing short of bizarre for so
many things like this to be reported by different people
(30:25):
from different backgrounds in such a similar way, and their
cultural lens, you know, changes it a little. You'll have
people say I met machine els, or I met an angel,
or I met aliens. And what I think is so
fascinating about this is not only are they describing the
(30:46):
same kind of thing, but they're describing the same kind
of experience. They're not just witnessing or beholding something. They feel,
they are in conversation, in communion with it. And and
just just for of course, like a full disclaimer when
we're talking about these studies, none of these people were
(31:07):
just given LSD or given magic mushrooms. It was part
of a monitored like treatment program where you checked in
and you had therapy and you had group sessions. So
please don't think we're talking about mad scientists just you know,
pulling an mk ultra on people.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
They are like fake shamans.
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Those are also a nightmare, just people that claim to
be shamans that aren't, Like there are real shamans though,
Like when I was in Peru, I did not participate,
but there's like a whole ayahuasca community where you can
go into the jungle and take ayahuasca. Now, I am
too much of a pussy because it sounds terrifying and
(31:46):
kind of horrible because you barf and poop everywhere, and
I was just like, no, but I have heard and
read that. You know, people I've spoken to have said
it changed their life. So I just would love to
see the research on it, because again going back to
I'm kind of a pussy, I just like I want
to know the research about it.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
The idea of a bad trip, too, I think, is
like a thing that this sort of has this like
weight to it. But sometimes I think what you're describing,
you know, could be almost like an on purpose bad
trip that forces you to confront bad shit that's in
your mind, you know. And I think that's where a
bad trip comes from, is where your head is at
before you ingest said substance, and if you're dealing with
demons that's going to come out and manifest itself in
(32:30):
your experience, and then you have a shaman who could
walk you through it and literally slay those psychic demons
that manifest themselves in quote unquote a bad trip. So
I think, you know, it's not. It's all about the
individual brain and the individual human and what they're going
through and what they're experiencing as to what happens in
one of these types of situations.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Oh, and we're going to take just a quick break
after that, and we'll return in a moment.
Speaker 7 (33:01):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I have a secular reason why the I believe the
rituals are important. If you're listening and you don't believe
in any higher plane or any kind of spiritual stuff,
if you're a very secular person, then consider the two
main factors of psychedelic experiences are seeing and setting. Scene
is kind of your external environment. We could even call
(33:22):
setting your mental environment. And so when you have a
ritual like ayahuasca, those rituals are not really meant to
be fun. For my understanding, it's supposed to be an important,
impactful thing and not entirely pleasant. Because I think you're
right about the barfing, which was a big turn up
for me.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
According to friend of mine, it was like a very
unpleasant experience, but the afterwards just felt so much like
spiritually and spiritually lighter and a little bit more free
of the demons that they had been experiencing, you know,
for a large part of their life, and I think
(34:03):
it's like a purging of those demons, like you were saying.
At least to them, it was.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, that makes sense, and so we see science supporting this.
The Journal of Psychopharmacology did a study with over two
five hundred people about DMT, you know, the active ingredient
in ayahuasca. And that study they didn't get rookies. They
only took people who had done ingested DMT in some
(34:31):
form like a baker's dozen times throughout their lives, which
my opinion is a lot, but you know, I'm not
an expert on that one. What they found was that
ninety nine percent of people had a profound and lasting
emotional response to your point, They weren't. It's not like
they it's not like if somebody drinks booze and they
(34:51):
get drunk for a night. These people something changed about
their mentality that stayed with them. They felt they were
eighty one percent felt they were in a metareality. They
had broken through the matrix. They were experiencing the overview effect,
and they all, like described they all said they felt
(35:11):
like they met something, even if it was just themselves.
Which is the weirdest part because you know that leads
some fringe writers to say, well, what if these things
we've been calling aliens and all these stories of UFOs
throughout generations, what if those are just somehow the same
thing we've encountered during intense periods of meditation, or maybe
(35:33):
intense periods of psychic turmoil, or maybe when there's a
ritual ingestion of these substances. I don't know. It's exciting
because again, this doesn't really happen in scientific research. There's
usually much more of an outlier.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
Well, and there's I like that there's a spiritual connection
in science. I love it when they converge. I love
when you go into something and you can come out
and a lot of people then all sudden believe in
a higher power or a higher consciousness or the universe
or God or whatever you want to call it. To me,
that just is pointing to, well, what is that experience doing.
(36:10):
It's obviously doing something positive for people. It's making them
feel more less alone, and whether it's they have themselves
or they or they're less alone in the universe because
they believe in alien or they're less alone because they
found a god type figure. I just think that it
doesn't seem like a bad thing, So I think that
it's worth exploring.
Speaker 6 (36:32):
And if we all were to evolve, what would that
look like? Like feel less alone?
Speaker 1 (36:39):
Like?
Speaker 5 (36:40):
I just wonder, like, how would that change society? I
think it might be beautiful.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Well, a lot of us wouldn't be as good matrix
batteries for you know, uh, consumeris I don't.
Speaker 5 (36:52):
Okay, here's the thing I have to tell on myself.
I've never seen the Matrix. I had a very weird
high school experience where I was not alone to watch
a lot of movies or TV, and I had to
go outside and write songs and sew things. So I
never got to see. Like, there's so many movies I've
never seen. I've never seen Harry Potter. I've never seen
(37:13):
the Matrix. So when you're making all the Matrix references,
I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Explain it, Okay, So in the Matrix, No, I'm just
everyone in.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
The world the Matrix. Everyone in the world has seen it.
Speaker 5 (37:24):
I feel like a complete jackass, and I'm going to
watch it today.
Speaker 7 (37:27):
Well exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
It's doing a good job of pop culturizing a thing
that you're probably already aware of, the idea that we're
all just cogs in this like machine that is like
something that's happening beyond our our consciousness or our awareness.
We're being used by a greater power as like a
tool for their benefit, not ours.
Speaker 7 (37:48):
Is that about the size of it.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Yeah, And there's there's a false world that we are
actually experiencing in the real world video game essentially like
that where human beings are physically plugged into a machine
and our batteries for this other bigger machine. But we
are in a virtual reality world that is like Earth
(38:13):
and all of this stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
It's Plato's action.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
The not surprise me, none of that is that's like
kind of what I think probably might be happening anyways.
And whether we're somewhere else being plugged into this, we're
definitely plugged into this, Like I'm having a conversation with
a bunch of people that are elsewhere yet we are
here together.
Speaker 6 (38:40):
Like that still trips me out. I know it should
be normal to you by now, But.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
The Plato's Cave thing, I think is the most appropriate
kind of little parable for all of this. Ben you know,
isn't that the one where you're sort of chained in place,
staring at a screen basically, and there's shadows on the
wall that represent things, but aren't actually the things themselves.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Well, so wouldn't In the story of Plato's cavern, which
is which is just it's a banger as far as
stories go. In this story, there are there are just
as just as you said, there are people who have
spent the entirety of their lives in this cave with
the with a fire or an entrance behind them, so
(39:20):
all that they can see are the shadows cast by
these objects. So the problem with it is that because
they're changed, they cannot look to the left or right. Symbolically,
they cannot change their perspective, so they are they can
only see these shadows of other things. And the question
(39:43):
is what happens when they escape the cave. If somebody
escapes the cave and they leave this false world to
the real world or the over world, whatever you want
to call it, would they understand what was happening? Would
they be blinded by the light, would they like knowing
(40:04):
the overall reality? Or would they say this is crazy.
Take me back to the cave. I've seen a real horse,
and the shadows of horses are way less frightening.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
I mean, I sometimes feel that way, like this past
year is the first time I've slowed down since I
was eighteen nineteen years old. Like it's just been like
a wild ride, and it's been very.
Speaker 6 (40:29):
Self involved.
Speaker 5 (40:30):
I mean, I'm promoting myself, singing songs about myself. Let's
just be honest. It's like it's a lot about me.
And so this is the first year I've got to
really stop and look at everyone else in the world
and everything else there could be, and it is it's uncomfortable,
like growing and going out of the.
Speaker 6 (40:50):
Cave, which I feel like.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
It's like I feel like I've been creeping out of
the cave slowly this year and it's super uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (40:56):
But once you once you see it, you can't go back,
That's right, you can't.
Speaker 5 (41:02):
So once you open the doors, Like, it's not necessarily comfortable,
but I do think that it's making me a more aware,
conscious person, and it's not necessarily comfortable or easy. But
you know, I'm on a different trip. So here we go.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
So Kesha on this trip. It appears, at least on
websites across the internet that you are going to be
getting onto a cruise at some point later this year.
Is that really happening?
Speaker 5 (41:35):
No, I'm not sure it's the best idea. This really
depends on the vaccine, so it depends on like how
COVID is going. But I am supposed to go on
a Casher cruise, which I know sounds like probably hell
to you guys, And for me, I'd never been on
a cruise.
Speaker 6 (41:53):
Before, so I was like, oh, I don't know how
this is going to go.
Speaker 5 (41:55):
And it was like the greatest three and a half
four days of my entire life. But it's also like
TVD to see how COVID works out, and then by
then we're going to know about aliens a little bit
because of the disclosure exactly.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
So, Ah, that is a segue and a half right there.
I think we dive right in to the news.
Speaker 7 (42:18):
Ben, Yes, yes, this is something.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
So since we're talking about peeking behind the curtain of reality,
let's look by behind the curtain of today's episode. Kesha You,
Matt Nol and I were talking in advance of this
call and we were like, well, what are cool things
we want to discuss? You know, what would we like
to explore together. And you said something very interesting. You
(42:43):
told us, You told us in paraphrasing like disclosure.
Speaker 7 (42:48):
Guys.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Also, I think disclosure is it's going to be a thing.
It's coming up. A disclosure for anyone who listens to
this show and somehow doesn't know what we're talking about.
Is the idea that there will be information released regarding
either the presence of intelligent non human beings you can
call them aliens if you want, or there will be
(43:10):
something even further like a government saying, hey, we've actually
interacted with these folks, and now we're going to tell you, well, folks.
Keasha told us back in December, I think there's I
think there's something on the way, and it turns out
that you were right.
Speaker 6 (43:32):
You will feel it.
Speaker 5 (43:33):
I can feel it coming in the air. I swear
to god, I could just feel it. I feel like
the media is starting to slowly introduce the ideas of
extraterrestrial or.
Speaker 6 (43:47):
You know whatever.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
I'm going to call them aliens because it's the easiest term,
but some sort of life, and they're going to just
sneak it in to you know, social media. It's going
to sneak into new York Times. It's going to sneak
in like TMZ, We're gonna get all these places and
just make people a little more comfortable with the idea
that this is coming.
Speaker 6 (44:07):
And I can just.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
Feel it slowly getting integrated into conversations more and it's
getting less taboo and less crazy and more legitimate. And
you keep seeing more videos and more people talking about it.
And now they are going to release how many all
the information?
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yes, yes, the hidden in the COVID Relief Bill of
the United States, there's this look like if you go
down in the Matroshka dolls enough, there's this one little
piece where they said, oh, by the way, the CIA
has one hundred and eighty days to release everything they
ever knew about UFOs since the formation of the CIA. Basically,
(44:50):
so you called it all that.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Stuff though the little we talked about this, that's all
called pork. I guess where you know it's like a
quid pro quoe, like we'll give you your thing if you
give us our thing. Who pushed for that? Like, who's
pushing for that to be wrapped up in this completely
unrelated bill.
Speaker 6 (45:05):
Well, that's what I'm wondering. Is it totally unrelated.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Well, I mean that's another discussion there. But Matt, I
saw your eyes light up when I was asking that question.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
We found out it was Mark or Rubio. I think this.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Time around that that surprised me this time around. Yeah,
the guy who drinks the water weird. That guy, yeah,
didn't expect it now.
Speaker 6 (45:35):
Also drinks water really weird.
Speaker 7 (45:38):
He holds it with like with with a finger and
a thumb on each hand to a small child.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Okay, so yeah, so again they kissed the lip of
the bottle, which is weird.
Speaker 7 (45:51):
It's like a pucker.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Anyway, Anyway, people should drink water the way they wish,
I guess. But uh, but yeah, this is this is
a part of a larger pattern. So Marco Rubio being
a supporter of this really surprised us on this show.
But there were other people before him, like Harry Reid
came out and said that he wanted to that there
(46:14):
was stuff they don't want you to know. I'm sorry,
I said the title and the conversation such, but said
there was. He said that there were things that needed
to be made public, and he didn't. I don't think
either of them went so far as to say definitely aliens,
but they said there are things that we have seen
(46:35):
that we cannot explain and the public needs needs to know.
Marco Rubio said he had a quote where he said,
you know, really it might be better if it's aliens,
because otherwise it's a it's another country that's doing things
we don't understand and normalizing.
Speaker 5 (46:51):
Normalizing, yes, so our brains can become accustomed to it
not being that far out.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
I mean, I think you make a really great point too,
because my initial reaction is like, why are these stories
not making bigger news? Why are these not like big
massive headlines, you know about the whatever that video that
Tom DeLong kind of pushed out where it was like
some navy pilots literally commenting on what the hell is this.
Speaker 7 (47:14):
Thing that they're seeing.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
It was kind of below the fold type stuff or
like more Internet EA stuff, And it still doesn't even
this is the kind of stuff we would find out about,
but it's like not massive news. And I think you're right,
it is sort of a normalization effect. And whether that's
by design or people have just been pre programmed to
kind of ignore this stuff or think it's all bogus,
(47:36):
it's fascinating. None nonetheless, and I'm really looking forward to
keeping an eye on as it develops.
Speaker 5 (47:41):
Kind of you know, yes, me too. And we were
talking about this earlier. I'm on keshing the Creepies. I
talked to Demi Lovado and she talked all about these
insane experiences she had, like such a trip and like
my mind was blown. And the only thing that news
picked up on was that we both dyed our hair.
Speaker 6 (48:04):
Oh and we're both sitting.
Speaker 5 (48:08):
There talking about how we want to how we've like
I'm talking about how I met God and she's played
with aliens, and like they just picked up on our hair.
Speaker 6 (48:17):
It's just so bizarre.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Well, I'll tell you what the most bizarre thing is.
This is what disclosure is going to be. We're going
to find out that the machine elves that we experienced
through meditation and DMT are the actual extraterrestrials. And you
don't get to them by going out there, you get
to them by going in here. Yes, that's going to be.
Speaker 5 (48:35):
I think they might be in here and out there
because I think we're all microcosms of the same thing.
Like we're all like a bunch of people running around
on Earth. We're like the molecules of the Earth and
then you go out and I think once extraterrestrial life
is kind of I think we're just going to realize
we're all just microcosms and it just keeps getting bigger,
(48:57):
and you could zoom out or you can zoom in,
and it's all connected. And I think that's the part
that brings me a little bit of peace, knowing we're
all connected, but also wanting other people to like see
it too, because we're all connected.
Speaker 6 (49:13):
I wish we would stop yes, well.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
And stop stop acting otherwise, right, super symmetry.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
And I have to say from the start, when we
met and I found out about your show, I thought
you have such an intuitive connectedness about you that makes
you a great interviewer. And you're really good at putting
these pieces together and pulling these stories out of people.
And that's why I think everyone should go check out
Kesha and the Creepies. You touch on the kinds of
stuff we touch on this show and everything in between.
(49:42):
It's just about being human and that's why I think
it's such a fun special show. And you've got I'm
lucky that I know you're kind of deep cut list
of stuff in the future, and there's some really cool
folks on there that I will not spoil, but tune
in and download it and subscribe on all the podcast
places today. You won't be sorry.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Thanks guys, Oh, thank you so much for your time Kesha.
Today we in addition to Waddie, to thank you, we
do have to have to say there there's so many
more things that we could explore, and there are so
many more things, as Noel said, that you and your
guest explore on your show, which has multiple episodes available
(50:23):
now do check it out. We're not blowing spoke. We
actually listened to this show too and enjoy it. One
one thing that I feel like we will be remiss
if we don't make the point to Matt's point and
your point about maybe the entities we encounter being something
we encounter by journeying and work.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
There's there's a guy named Terence McKenna who has said
that he believes when people are having these experiences, they
may be encountering something hidden in our own DNA, which
we still don't fully understand. So we're just gonna just
gonna throw that at our listeners.
Speaker 6 (51:01):
I really do believe it.
Speaker 5 (51:03):
I don't know what it is, but I could just
feel like the more inward I go, the more when
I am acting out in the world, it makes me
just want to be a more conscious, better person. And
I feel like anything that takes you there, whether that's
meditation or just sitting with yourself or doing yoga or
you know, when the psychedelics are studied and it's safe
(51:27):
and it's kind of in a controlled legal way, it
might help people find that connectedness with themselves and maybe
each other in a higher power. And I just am
excited to see where that would take us all as
a society. Like I think evolution, it could be like
a really beautiful evolution and enlightenment, and God, what if
(51:49):
we all came to peace with each other.
Speaker 6 (51:52):
Wouldn't that be the safe?
Speaker 3 (51:53):
Wouldn't that be amazing?
Speaker 1 (51:54):
You'll have to come back on the.
Speaker 7 (51:55):
Show when that happens.
Speaker 5 (52:00):
I mean, the insurrection was like what six days ago,
So I'm trying to stay positive and hopeful here. But
you guys should come on my show and we can
talk about.
Speaker 6 (52:09):
Wood lot more creepy.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Absolutely absolutely well. I know you got a skewed but
thanks so much for your time. And this has been
an absolute pleasure. Really. Like Ben said, there's a million
other things we could have talked about, and there's things
that we made notes on that we skipped over. But
I think this was a pretty fun, connected conversation going
from psychedelics to disclosure and all things in between, and
it didn't really feel like we jumped to shark.
Speaker 7 (52:31):
So I'm pretty happy about this.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
What a wild ride. Thank you again to Keshaw. We
explored disclosure. We explored psychedelics not just as medicine, but
as one of the many ways that people have endeavored
to cross the siege perilous and meet with a reality
that may lie beyond our own. Thanks to everybody for
(52:55):
tuning in. We want to hear from you. To the
degree that you are comfortable. We'd love to hear your
experiences with meditation, with supernatural or spiritual revelations, whether or
not psychedelics are involved. Please fill us tell us as
much or as little as you feel comfortable sharing. You
(53:16):
can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram.
You can find us on Twitter. We'd like to recommend
our Facebook page. Here's where it gets crazy. We've got
some brand new mods, so jump by, say hello and
show them some love. If you hate social media, if
you like Kesha like myself, have read the books about
why you should quit social media. We have another way
(53:39):
to get in contact with us. You can always give
us a phone call.
Speaker 3 (53:42):
That's right. Our number is one eight three three std WYTK.
Please talk to us about some encounter you've had with
an intelligent thing that you can't explain, whether it's a dolphin,
shadow creature, a person.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
I hear there are people out there.
Speaker 3 (53:59):
Yeah, people are cool, but especially if they're like more
arms than usual or eyes than usual. Yeah, please please
leave us a message about that. Like I said, one
eight three three std wy TK.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
If you don't want to call us, you can also
get in touch with us a slightly more old fashioned
internet based way.
Speaker 7 (54:19):
Why not write us a good.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Old fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (54:43):
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