February 9, 2026 • 60 mins
What's the difference between an assassination and a garden-variety murder? Where does the term 'assassin' actually come from, and how did an obscure sect founded almost one thousand years ago fundamentally change the course of history as we know it? Tune in for the answers to these questions and more in the first part of this special two-part series.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fellow conspiracy realists. We are returning with a couple of
classic episodes as we're on the road and at points
abroad and domestic guys, remember when we started looking into assassins, Yeah,
I ever started.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I mean it's a fascination for sure. Their their creed,
you know, whatever, whatever you whatever, whatever you've got right
for real.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I think anybody who ever got into a singular Assassin's
Creed game or maybe the entire series, the concept of
assassins and the way they build the history right throughout
those games is it's fascinating, and that's one of the
primary reasons you want to play the game, Like, I
need to unlock more of this little what is this?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Who does a fabulous job with some modern kind of
Assassin's law? Is the John Wick movies with the whole
the High Table and all of that stuff, Oh your
marker and coin as dog.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, we looked into it, folks, and one of our
primary questions a few years back was what's the difference
between an assassination and your garden variety homicide.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
It's all about intent, that's the end of the episode.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Now, it's got a lot to do with it, and
also who pays you who is, you know, the one
putting out.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
The hit m M. And as we find in this episode,
it goes way back, like well over a thousand years
ago to where you can find, you know, at least
the written down origins of an actual thing that we're
going to learn about in just a moment.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I guess you don't have to be paid to be
someone who is doing an assassination. I believe the killer
of Archduke Franz Ferdinand was acting of his own volition,
as is well, exactly exactly Matt. But then you know
the individual who shot John Lennon again, was he though?
But yeah, as signs point too, it was just somebody
(02:04):
who kind of got to be in their bonnet about
that particular dude. But yet that was absolutely considered an assassination.
If I'm not mistaken, certainly historically referred to as such, you.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Are not mistaken. It's also not always as we'll see
about the money now, folks, we're going to join people
from thousands of years ago in this classic episode. All
we ask is that you join us in twenty twenty.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
(02:37):
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. Today, we're embarking on a two
part episode, one that travels across time and space from
the ancient Middle East all the way to the modern day.
(03:24):
Let's let's start this way without too much too much introduction.
What is the difference between an assassination and a murder? Well,
here are the facts. We all kind of know what
an assassin is, right.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yes, at least to an extent, we know that an
assassin is a murderer. Right, in order to assassinate something
or someone, you have to murder it or kill it, right.
Whereas a typical murderer that is out there might commit homicide,
which is taking the life of another human being for
(04:02):
any number of reasons. And we have laws on the
books to differentiate between those types of homicides and degrees.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Right, there's the Weirdly enough, just from a linguistic standpoint,
the coolest sounding one, manslaughter is actually lelie yeah, than man,
than murder in the first degree.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
It's like, whoops, I hit you with my car. That's manslaughter.
And it's a little sexist, an outdated term. By the way.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Just want to say, but human death, Yes, you caused
human death.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
That's good, Matt.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
So it appears that assassination is a genre of homicide,
and that's correct. But why is it a genre. Well,
an assassin is defined by their target, their tactics, and
their motivations. So if we it's interesting because recently this
(05:00):
year there was a huge hubbub in Western media about
the use of a word, the word being assassination or assassin.
Webster's New World College Dictionary, which MPR uses for their
editorial purposes as their kind of guide for how to
write reporting, they define an assassin as someone who murders
(05:22):
a politically important or prominent person, typically by a surprise attack,
usually for some sort of payment or in the service
of some sort of ideological belief. And this sounds cold
when we look at it this way, because that means that,
let's say, someone knocks over a gas station in a robbery,
(05:43):
they fatally shoot cashier. That makes that criminal a murderer,
but not an assassin. An assassin would be someone who
fatally attacks the president of a country, unless, of course
they somehow I'm laughing, this is ridiculous, unless of course
they somehow accidentally kill the president, which which is terrible manslaughter.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, by like accidentally giving them coronavirus. Maybe maybe, yeah, maybe, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
I mean, that person is definitely in for a good
talking to a stiff. Fine, perhaps, But you know, is
that going to be considered an assassination? Well, I don't know, right,
maybe if it was premeditated, that's certainly one of the factors.
But my question for you, two Ben is like, what
if say someone was paid to kill a prominent podcaster,
At what point do you go into the realm of
(06:34):
like being politically important enough to be assassinated versus just
oft you know, or or have a hit put out
on you don't.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Don't worry, dude. We're off the table for assassinations, are
you sure? Yeah, because it keeps me up nights. We
cannot be assassinated murdered, certainly.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Okay, right, we can.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I feel better now, stabbed or shot. Yeah, that's interesting
because to a degree or definition of what counts as
an assassination is something we arrive at retroactively.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
But if you, for instance, someone who may not be
seen as prominent may be murdered and their death may
set off a series of events that changes the world,
and later historians will say it was an assassination for
that reason.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Like Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Right, Yeah, well I would He's already an assassination worthy victim, right,
because he's an archduke. Right. You see, the question gets complex,
Like the most one of the weirdest examples of this
that I could think of was the story of the
biblical Cain and Abel. Was Kane just a murderer or
(07:48):
was he an assassin before the term existed? I mean,
it checks the boxes. He launched a surprise attack on
a politically and socially important person, and he did it
because he was driven by zealous beliefs.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
It was his brother though, right.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Wasn't his jealousy though, because his father liked the other
brother better.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I get you.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
I think I think that see what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You're using this as like almost like a microcosmic mini
story that sort of encapsulates the larger thing because it
was political because he was.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Favored by his father.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Therefore, it was motivated because he wanted to be the
favorite son.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah. And the twist with that is with such a
small cast of characters in that story, everybody is prominent
and politically and socially.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
That's that's really smart. Ben I like that.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
And then in the end Cain was condemned by God
and forced to walk the earth like another Caine from
Kung Fu.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
It just made me realize, maybe that's where that came from.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
And maybe that's where it came from. Yeah, exactly this. Okay,
So this murder versus assassination thing, it might seem like
it's a game of semantics, like it doesn't really make
a big difference calling something an assassination versus calling it
a murder. Definitely doesn't bring that person back from the dead.
But the difference, as we'll find, is huge and it's crucial.
(09:13):
In some cases, it has legal implications, like earlier this year,
the United States of America targeted a prominent Iranian general,
Cossam Solomani in January, and news organizations like MPR, FOX,
CNN all the hits were. They were really concerned about
(09:35):
how they should describe this, and that's because murder has
a legal implication, as does assassination.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Well, it's like the maybe the military jargon would be
eliminating a high level target or something along those lines.
But the idea of calling an assassination is a bad look,
you know. PR wise, It's like, that's where the semantics
do matter for the optics of this. We don't assassinate people,
we take out targets.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Well, yeah, exactly, because when NPR actually labeled this action
and assassination, it became a big deal and there was
a lot of outcry from audience members about just again,
the semantics of it. This was not an assassination. No,
you can't call it that. Don't call it that.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
We're the good guys, good dams don't attack with daggers
and drones in the dark.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
But I guarantee you the people in Sulamani's own country
sure as hell considered an assassination, didn't they.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's weird because this strategy, if
we just objectively look at this strategy, it doesn't matter
what you call it. It matters what happened, and This
strategy of assassination is familiar to cultures across the planet
throughout the ages. I mean just from like from John
(10:59):
walk Spooth, a famous US based assassin, right he assassinated
then President Abraham Lincoln. From that guy, all the way
back to the ancient days with people like Lacousta the Poisoner.
You don't have to look very far, very deep defined
historical records of assassins. There's a book. I guess I'll
just hold it up. We'll do a little disturbing reading
(11:22):
rainbow here. I don't know if you guys can see this.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
There's a lot of Caravaggio on the cover. I love
that image.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Let's see is it yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:30):
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
But either way, it's one of those classic Like it
looks like the cover of a Joy Division album. It's
like this person dead in the bath with their arm
kind of draped over the side.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
That classic.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
I believe it's impressionists, but it's you know, caravagi. You
would be a great example, really high definition, super moody
and very kind of eerie image. I love those types
of paintings.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
The Encyclopedia of Assassinations available at any arcane bookstore near you.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right by Carl Sificus. This explorer both attempted and successful
assassinations throughout human history, and interestingly enough, it lists several cases,
such as that of dag Hammer Scold. Yeah it's a
cool name. It lists that case as an assassination, but
(12:18):
that still has not been officially confirmed as such, even
though the US president at the time dag Hammer Skull
was in charge of the UN when he was when
he died in a mysterious airplane accident. We have an
old YouTube video on that. But the point is this,
this book is pretty old, but these cases of assassination,
(12:43):
because of the controversy, they remain very touchy subjects for
a long long time. And so today in the in
the first part of our series, we wanted to ask
where did this come from? Where? Where does the concept
of an assassin actually originate? We'll tell you after a
(13:04):
word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. Assassin
isn't some dramatic, exotic word some hack writer invented to
just sort of z up an otherwise depressing murder story.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
It's IP for Mobisoft.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
It's IP for movies soft right. In fact, the term
Assassin refers to an all too real, all too conspiratorial
organization from ancient history. It's an honest to God's secret society.
Let's call it the Order of Assassins.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Ooh, oh my god. Wait, you're saying it's real. That's
what we're saying. The Order of Assassins is real or was?
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Uh no, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Well, we're not saying, you know, we're not saying Assassin's
Creed should be considered a playable documentary. Although there's a
lot of great historical research in there. We're we're saying
there was a real group. We don't know a ton
about them. This is something that you'll always run into
when you're looking at controversial institutions in ancient history. The
(14:25):
fortress of the Assassins, and they did have a real fortress,
was conquered in twelve fifty six CE. And when they were.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Conquered, the.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Castle was raised essentially their library was destroyed. So we
have no written historical records about the Assassins from the
Assassins themselves. Still we do know some things.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Between ten ninety and twelve seventy five, a small Nizari
Ismaili sect, high in the mountains of Persia and Syria,
went into the murder for higher business. The Assassins were
an offshoot of the Ismaili sect of Shia Islam, and
it was founded by Hassan Is Sabah, who referred to
(15:11):
his followers as I'm gonna oh okay asasi yun a
s A s I y y u n with some
underscore characters over the A and the U, and that
means people who are faithful to the foundation of faith,
and they were. They had this stronghold fortress called a
(15:31):
La Mut's Castle that was about one hundred and thirty
miles from what is today known as Tehran.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I mean, it's just so cool to me that that's real.
So the concept here of this group they wanted to
challenge the Turks who were Sunni Muslims. So we're we're
talking about Shia and Sunny conflicts back in what did
we say, the one thousand and ninety CE to twelve
(16:04):
one hundred seventy five CE, the Sunni Muslims, these Seljuk Turks,
they were in control of Persia at this time when
when this group was organized for these purposes, and this
is when the group first became known as the Hashashen
another cool word here, but today they're better known as assassins.
(16:24):
It's a term that was given to them by the
European crusaders who are rolling through and you know, doing their.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Thing, those Europeans, just making language work for them, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah, just kind of a corruption of the phrase, right,
But that's what you get with a living language. This group,
known as the Assassins, they actively and covertly murdered first
Muslim then later Christian leaders throughout the Middle East. And
they murdered these folks or assassinated these folks when they
(17:01):
were seen as a threat to this sect, to their society,
to their geopolitical control. And while the term assassins applies
to the whole crew, right, there was actually only a
smaller inner group known as the Fidai that engaged in
(17:22):
actual conflict in what is sometimes euphemistically referred to as
direct action. This is important.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Now.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
We do have to say that none of us are
fluent Arabic speakers, so thank you in advance for your
understanding of our pronunciations. We do know that the Nazari
did not have a standing army, so they relied upon
these warriors, these operatives to carry out espionage. Why kill
(17:56):
an why fight an army when you can just kill
the king or the general. Their preferred method of killing
was usually going to be through the use of daggers,
so that means close up to their target, no poison
drop offs, no arrows, and often they were known for
(18:17):
being completely okay with dying or being tortured after they
had committed their murder. They posed a strategic threat to Fatimid,
Abyssid and Seljuk authority alike, and for almost three hundred
years we know they killed hundreds and hundreds of people
(18:38):
important people that era's version of VIPs three colleagues, ruler
of Jerusalem, tons of other leaders Muslim and Christian alike.
So despite the fact that we don't have direct accounts
from like Hassan himself saying I dope these guys up
and brainwashed them and now we're killing everybody, we have
(19:00):
accounts from other people who were alive or around at
the time. Manada, let's see what you think of these.
One of the first ones comes from a Spanish rabbi
named Benjamin of Tudela. He traveled through Syria in eleven
sixty seven. So this is why the group was active.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And Benjamin, not our Benjamin, the one we just mentioned.
He told of this mysterious leader that existed named the
Old Man in the Mountain. That's a the old Man
in the Mountain. That's what he referred to him as
Old Man in the Mountain, This old Man in the mountain,
this Yoda like figure, although he did not have that reference,
who led a sect of warriors who dwelled in hidden
(19:42):
mountain fortresses.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
More of a Palpatine, I think.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, it is more of a Palpatine. And it's gosh,
I can't remember which episode. I think we did one
on military and Drugs where we talked about the mountain
fortresses in several parts of the region there and how
important they were, and then how we saw that reflected
in the conflicts that the US then went into and
places around Afghanistan and out in the Middle East, and
(20:09):
these mountain fortresses that were so difficult to if you
were an invading force or someone who's trying to attack,
so difficult to penetrate. But that's an interesting thing, right,
There's an old man in a mountain and he's he
is controlling or leading a bunch of these warriors that
live there. And there's also information quite a bit more
(20:32):
actually that comes from Syrian Sunni chroniclers, and you know,
it's there, it exists, which is very nice, but unfortunately
quite a bit of this information is biased. Again, you
have to remember that there was conflict there between the
Shia and the Sunni Muslims, and because of that conflict,
(20:53):
the Syrian Sunni population really did hate or at least
some of these prominent writers seem to show anger and
hatred in the writing or at least writing about them
from you know, from an enemy's perspective, because they were
the enemies, and they probably did hate them because they
did some heinous things.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah they had, I mean, they had every reason, ye
to hate the assassins.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
But it just thinks of the historical record, then itself
becomes this version of it rather than well, let's you know,
let's actually look at it as equal parts in some
way or at least in some form.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And the Crusaders were aware of these chronicles from the
from the Syrian Sunni population. They said, look, this is
close enough to the truth. Someone's out here killing everybody,
so let's just run hogwild. With it. You know, who
(21:51):
has time to fact check. That's a problem we have
in the modern day. So as a result, we have
to treat these stories with skepticism. It's kind of like
propaganda you would see against the pope by their successors,
or against royalty, a lot of them.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Against any army, you know, yeah, armies that the propaganda
this is produced is intense.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So yeah, they're gonna say, like, you can read some
of these things and translations thereof and say, Okay, this
looks like maybe it was designed to entertain an audience
or just to character assassinate the assassins themselves. And they
talked about how powerful, how competent these operatives were, but
(22:33):
then they also made these pretty crazy claims about how
they became so successful.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, And in the twelfth century, William the Second, who
was a crusader and the Archbishop of Tire believed that
this whole old Man in the Mountain idea was true
and that he commanded this individual as many as sixty
thousand assassins. And he noted that they would do suicide attacks.
They had no regard for their own safety in their
(23:02):
own lives. They were seeking destroy and if they don't
make it out alive, so be it. It's all about
the target and getting the job done of.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
This old man in the Mountain figure.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
William the Icond wrote this quote, it is their custom
to install their masters and choose their chief, not by
hereditary right, but solely by virtue of merit. What a
novel idea, by the way, disdaining any other title of dignity.
They call him the Elder. The bond of submission and
obedience that binds this people to their chief is so
(23:33):
strong that there's no task so arduous, difficult or dangerous
that any one of them would not undertake to perform
it with the greatest zeal and you know, speaking back
to the propaganda and the war of words and trying
to smear folks to be taken with a grain of salt.
But there there were reports about this group that they
God forbid ate pork and married their sisters.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Which were to unpack that that quotation from William the Second.
He's not saying meritocracy is a good thing. He's pointing
it out as a criticism. He's implying their barbaro because
they don't because they respect people's talents over their genetic
lottery whichever.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
So counterinto it if fascinating and like a product of
the time, you know what I mean, what they.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Don't have a royal pure bloodline, the lineage sending directly
to God, you know, for shame.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Like they hire people based on their skills, they promote
them based on their skills, They eat pork, and they're
sleeping with their siblings. All three of those things were
just terrible.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
And somehow the people who join up are willing to
do things for their leaders.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Willing to right right right. It's almost like the chance
of being promoted makes people better at their jobs. That's
a very that's Please don't make that the main takeaway
from today's episode, but yeah, you're right. The fact is
they that this guy noticed these people were not the
(25:14):
type of individuals to turn away from a task, even
if it meant that they would be killed in completing
it or captured and tortured afterwards. In some ways, this
was seen as noble in this community. So these rumors
are around. It's kind of a an urban legend. It's
kind of a conspiracy theory, and there's proof in you know,
(25:38):
in terms of dead bodies of important people. They keep
showing up at weird times in history. It gets really
popular and mischaracterized in Western Europe thanks to one of
the best selling books of the medieval era, the Travels
of Marco Polo. It's this book alone spread so many
(25:59):
claims about the order, and if we read it through
the lens of the modern day, it sounds like Marco
is telling us the Assassins are a cult. There's this
idea that the elder, the old man in the mountain,
starting with Hassan himself, has been brainwashing his followers, has
(26:20):
been doping them with some sort of substance. Again, we
don't know the exact nature of that substance, but hashisham
assassins Hashish the rumor is, or at least what he
says in the book is that the old Man of
the Mountain is giving his followers a drugged potion during
(26:42):
their training, right, and this is breaking down the usual
human moral qualms with things like assassination. And then before
he sets them off on an assassination mission, he gives
them some version of this. Again, so it has a
lot in common think about it with reports of like
(27:03):
Manchurian candidates, people who are through systematic psychological tactics and
through the ingestion of substance, they're turned into zombies, you know, or.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
You know, here's the deal is it? Are we saying
we think, at least according to that book, we think
it might be hashish is that and that is cannabis
and weed? Right, mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
It's It's basically like, it's the stuff that's the sticky
crystal stuff that sticks to.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
The outside of cannabis.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
When it's cured, they can shake it off and you
essentially make it into like you press it and make
it into a resinous kind of material that is able
to be smoked.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
So I've heard, but we're saying, we're saying, or the
travels of Marco Polo is saying that that's the substance
that made them in some way become a Manchurian candidate,
like the when out of their minds about.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
It's interesting though, because so Hashishim Hashisham is the nickname
for the sect that was used by a lot of
its enemies or uh in casual conversation about this group,
and it was believed to have derived from the Arabic
word hashish, So naturally you can see how that didn't
(28:27):
come directly from Marco Polo's book that was already around.
But when Marco Polo mentioned this drugged potion, it cemented
the image of this order in the zeitgeist of the time.
So they were like, these are shadowy, drug crazed fanatics.
They may have powers that the average undrugged human being
(28:50):
doesn't have, you know what I mean? And to a
degree psychologically that might be accurate. But you could say
that about any number of any number of groups who
institute systematized suicide attacks.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Wow, hey man, look we're all the same. But I
just gotta assassinate you, bro.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
I'm sorry. Yeah, here hit this verse. It'll make you
way more.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Chill exactly, more crazed in assassiny.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So if this is true, think about it. If this
is true, it boggles the mind. How is this not
brought up more often, especially during these moral panics. I
love that you mentioned reefer madness nol because if again,
if this is true, it's one of the best PSAs
against the use of cannabis in human history, right, Like
(29:40):
smoke a joint and then go kill the king.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
That's a mindless murder machine.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right right? And I love that that rhymes. Thank you.
This there's a reason. I guess there's one reason that
this didn't show up in a lot of psash. Well, first,
most people and be familiar with this story. But secondly,
it turns out that Marco Polo is the primary propagator
(30:08):
for this hash claim. If you look at the sources
from the Islamic world, even among the Assassin's enemies, even
among the Seljukes and the Syrians who hated them, they
don't they don't really mention the use of hashish. So
maybe a more convincing explanation for that nickname comes from
the Egyptian Arabic word hashashien, and that that means something
(30:33):
totally different. It's a little silly. It means like noisy
people or the troublemakers.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Wasn't Marco Polo known to be a bit of an
exaggerator too, and possibly inventing some stuff just like out
a whole cloth to make himself look like more of
a badass explorer.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's true. It's a curated version
of reality, right, But a lot of a lot of
the things he says didn't bear up the scrutiny. Still,
it was the best information people had at the time,
So this is why modern scholars, people like Bernard Lewis,
who is a Middle Eastern historian and expert on the assassins,
(31:14):
believes that hashishi or hashishm was a popular Syrian pejorative.
It was a term of abuse. We're discrediting these people.
You know, sure they're effective killers, but they're drug addicts,
and you know it's the devil's tobacco. It's the jazz
cigarettes and the left hand smokes that are making them
(31:36):
such effective monsters. So you can see already that the
image people have of assassins in the modern day, and
the image people had of assassins when they were around
kind of became larger than life. They were living legends.
There was a lot of disinformation about them, and we
can only assume they probably used it to their credit,
(31:58):
because it's the kind of pr you can't buy. But
this is just one of the misconceptions. So I propose
we take a break for our sponsor, try our best
not to get assassinated, and come back and explore some
of those misconceptions in just a moment. What do you
guys think?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
It sounds great? Everybody cross your fingers and hope that
it's a CBD sponsor Okay, cool, that's good.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
And we've returned misconceptions about a group of killers in
ancient Persia slash Syria. This is the slightly awkward part
where we defend their character.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
But so, a lot of medieval Europeans knew about the Order,
especially once the travels of Marco Polo were published. They
believe that this group was specifically targeting Christians. So this
is fuel to the fire for the Crusades and for
other campaigns. Right now, we're fighting to protect good Christian
(33:13):
people against this threat.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Make you a cog in our Holy war kind of.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Situation, right, But this thing was not entirely true. In fact,
it turns out this happens all the time in the
world of politics. It turns out these people who are
like publicly enemies to each other, behind closed doors, they
would not infrequently get together and be like, hey, you
know what, man, I know, I guess there's a lot
(33:39):
of stuff going on. It's the bridge under the water,
are you guys high? Don't worry about it. Let's just
let's work something out. Maybe we can make an alliance.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You know, well, you know that we're about to talk
about something here coming up, which is another part of
the misconceptions. But there are some realities that this group
faced that makes me one if there was use of
cannabis or some other drug like that, if it didn't
have more to do with their situation and less to
(34:09):
do with tactics for battle. It's a bit of a spoiler,
but we'll keep going here.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
No, I think it's I think it's foreshadowing, Matt. So
we wanted to pull one example of times that Christian
forces and Assassin forces got together. Right in twelve fifty one,
the King of France, Louis the ninth, sent some invoys
to meet the assassins, to go and find the Old
(34:35):
Man or the elder of the legends, and this meeting.
They took the meeting because it suited their diplomatic needs
at the time. Otherwise it seems like the sect was
they were Yeah, they were killing people when they had
to or when they wanted to, but they were largely
(34:56):
uninterested in Christians, at least at that time. They were
primarily focused on all the crazy changes happening in the
Muslim world and the events that had shaped them. They
were also shaping these events in turn, and that's because
of their assassination tactics. Let's go to what you said, Matt,
(35:20):
about not just the rumors of drug use, but about
how these tactics it came to be. It wasn't so
much a matter of religious belief or what is the
moral right way to kill someone. It was necessity. It
was desperation. Even if you take that sixty thousand number
(35:43):
in good faith, we have to remember only a few
people in the Assassin's order were actually killing folks, were
actually going out on these missions. Hassan was outgunned and
outnumbered the whole time.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
He was outgunned, outmanned, out numbered, out planned.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I guess, yes, yes, yes, he was very much so.
And he was also I guess everybody was out gunned
at that time.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Knives probably, this is like the knife age, right.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
These guys are using knives. Yeah, they're using daggers to kill.
Arrows are around, swords are round.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
But yeah, they come they come out of their arms
like that. That's that's how they were.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah, they pop out from the wrists. Uh. Yes, So
he knew. He knew that there was no way they
could wage what we would call like conventional war of
the time. They didn't have the numbers.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, so we had to resort to being more crafty,
and we're talking about some James Bond level here, guerrilla warfare, espionage, spying,
targeted killings, assassinations. There would be sleeper agents that would
basically travel in disguise and you know, pose as members
of the community in which they were trying to infiltrate
(37:01):
to get a better beat on their targets and insert
themselves into these very important strategic positions so that they
could have the upper hand, right.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, I mean it may sound familiar again, like we
just dropped a reference to the Revolutionary War, a version
of a telling of the Revolutionary War. But yeah, whenever
I think this is a commonality, whenever you have a
small force that needs to operate effectively.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
Wasn't Hercules Mulligan a spy? Wasn't that his deal.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Spoilers? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
I think I think so that.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
No, like Hercules Mulligan is a real guy, was a spy.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
He also got firebars, dude.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yeah, yeah, that was his first love. I think that
and being a tailor and then you know Third America.
But but think of that, you know, we always think
of sleeper agents in the context of I guess like
the Cold War here in the West, right, that was
the worry deep cover sleeper agents from the US going
(38:11):
into the USSR and vice versa. But they existed in
these ancient times. These guys would say, Okay, we're gonna
kill this person. We're going to do it in two years.
So tonight, I'm going to travel with this caravan and
I'm going to set up shop and I'm just gonna
you know, I'm just I'm gonna sell trinkets and Choschki's
(38:33):
for a while until the time comes. That's why I
break out my drugged potion, break out my dagger. About
a being about a boom, they did not say about
it being about a boom, We're pretty.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Did they say drugs potion?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Though? Because God, I love that phrase. It just sounds
like a good good time, a drugs potion, I.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Want to breathe. We should refer to things as potions
more often, right, I know there's some like there are
probably some craft brewery that use the phrase alixir. But
let's bring back potion.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Oh well, remember Philip Seymour Hoffman's character and the Paul
Thomas Anderson movie The Master. He was really taken by
Freddie Joaquin Phoenix is kind of unhinged, like you know
that character, because he would make this hoots out of
rocket fuel and like you know, photography, chemicals and and
(39:23):
and this character of Phil tim Hoffin's character refers to
it as give me another taste of that delectable potion,
love it or something.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
About pots bring back potions. Uh, that's okay. So so
we've mentioned this special core. The people were actually doing
the assassinations. They're sometimes also known as the Fedayin.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
They they were very very effective, and they were very
very selective. They the name translates to those who sacrificed themselves.
They were drilled to this is the most mind blowing part.
So they weren't just drilled to accept the possibility of
(40:07):
death or the possibility of torture. They were taught to
find and eliminate their target and then wait to be
discovered and then willingly submit to torture execution. That's terrible
for the individual, but imagine how amazing that is for
the order.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Yeah, exactly, setting a precedent that this is going to
this is what's going to happen. You know who did it,
and you don't get any information out of them and
you can torture them until they die. And oh god,
how many are there? Wait, there are a lot of
them like this.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
We'll send another one. Yeah, exactly, and a lot of assassination,
as we'll see in part two of this series, is
about sending a message, and that's what they were doing.
So we would today consider this a kind of asymmetrical warfare.
Why do you fight an entire network? Why do you
attempt to go against an entire system when you can
(41:03):
pop one link in the chain, right, you can get
that individual dot at the top of the command structure,
and you can create all the results you aimed to achieve.
You sow discord, you make the opponent squander their resources,
and you make them expect even more terrible things from
(41:26):
you in the future, and you put them on the defensive.
So there. I don't know, it can play out one
hundred different ways. But one example of this comes to
us in ten ninety two. Just to give you an
actual snapshot of how this group successfully conspired and carried
out these murders.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yeah, and this example comes to us from ten ninety two.
This is when this group of assassins murdered or assassinated
the visier Nizam al Mulk. He was a powerful member
of the Soljuk Sultanate, and the records that were available
(42:07):
from that time they say that Nasari disguised himself as
a Sufi mystic and was able to infiltrate, get in close,
close enough to stab this person and kill them.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Pray with me, my son.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Yes, yeah, it's intense. And this assassination had a real
domino effect, as we've been describing.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Exactly because shortly after the murder of Nazam al Muk,
who was sort of think of him like if the
sultan is the president, this guy is one of the
secretaries of the cabinet kind of, so it's as if
a secretary of the cabinet was murdered. People are freaking out.
(42:59):
And then at little bit later, the sultan himself, Sultan
Malik Shah, is murdered. And at this point historians argue
back and forth over whether that second murder was the assassins,
but it doesn't matter because this domino effect goes into
play very quickly. The Seljuks and chaos. Who is supposed
(43:20):
to be in charge here there are people wearing disguises
and killing us like I can't trust anyone. You know,
what about that guy, how long has he been in town? Well,
that guy says he grew up here, but is that true?
And then the attacks continued. The assassins started killing more rulers, generals, governors, clerics,
(43:47):
anyone anyone who was seen in their eyes as an enemy.
And they seemed to be everywhere and nowhere. You know
what I mean. There's not an official uniform. It could
be the mystic next to you, It could be the
merchant two stalls down in the marketplace. So people got
really paranoid, right, They started hiring bodyguards even if they
(44:10):
thought they might not be the number one target. They
wanted to also wear chain mail under their clothing, like
think about these are terroristic tactics.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
You know, Ben, It's really this is very reminiscent to
the fear that permeated the United States, and I would
say a lot of the Western world and probably the
entire world following the September eleventh attacks of two thousand
and one, where it felt like anybody could be a target, right.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Even folks that were separated from like big urban centers
like in Middle America really felt vulnerable in that way
where maybe there's a sense of oh, we're away from
all the big cities, we're somehow safe or not on
the radar. But that whole kind of comfort level really
went out the window.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, and for very good reason. You know. I mean,
humans back then aren't that different from humans today. We
just have more toys. We're talking about the assassins in
the past tense at least this group, this origin story,
because eventually they did fall. They were active and effective
for the better part of three centuries, and they continued
(45:10):
after the death of their founder. The Old Man in
the Mountain died in eleven twenty four sometime around then,
and the sect continued without him. In eleven thirty eight,
his successor, one buzurg Umid died died as well. I'm
laughing because we know the date of his death thanks
(45:33):
to their big fans, the Sunni chroniclers. One Sunny chronicler
described his death in the following way. He says, brazog
Omed died crushed under the heel of perdition, so hell
was heated by the fuel of his carcass.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Oh man, the sick burn very very literally hah, very
very visual. Wow, what a what a wonderful wonderfully hateful
way of referring to this.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Yeah, it's very I spit on your grave style, as
obituaries go. But the order continued on, and that means
that the murders, especially of high ranking Sunni figures, continued.
In the eleven sixties, leadership fell to Hassan the second
Hassan too. He took the branch in a different theological direction.
(46:22):
Now this is really interesting. Remember we talked about the
propaganda saying, look, implying heavily like, look, these guys aren't
even real Muslims. They pork, they're marrying their siblings. Don't
fall for the hype. But Hassan two did something interesting.
He said, you know, if you're a true believer, if
(46:43):
you're willing to die for this cause, you are relieved.
You are absolved from moral customs, pray when you can
where you can. If you can't turn the direction of Mecca,
that's fine. You can do things they're regarded as openly
sinful as well, because you were ultimately in service of,
wait for it, the greater good.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Snap.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
I didn't realize it was the greater good that this
whole thing was about.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Okay, cool, well, changes everything, right? I mean, it's the
greater good. It's not the regular good anyway, that it's
the next level good, it's the most goodest.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
But that's such an Argument's it's just a.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Common argument for doing terrible things throughout history, in politics
and war, and it's, oh, it's for the greater good. Yeah,
we got to murder all these people, but it's okay
because you know, the greater good will benefit. So don't
think about this thing, think about the big picture. It's
just it's a way of pivoting responsibility from the you know,
the people that are actually doing the bad, the bad
(47:43):
stuff to I don't know, like it's it's it's interesting
because the greater good too, is also very very subjective, right,
what that even means?
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (47:52):
But why why why isn't it the greatest good?
Speaker 4 (47:56):
The goodest is called the best? It's for the best.
That people didn't say that too, don't they.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
It's for the best, but it means something different, doesn't it?
For the best just means well, come see comes uh. Yeah,
it's just that's just the way it went, and it
was for it was for the best. It's a lie
we tell ourselves, which I believe, so is the greater good.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Yeah, I mean I maybe we should Maybe we should
think about it as we'll just make up a word here,
will churchify a little? Maybe we should think about it as, uh,
the good osity, the speed and direction of a given good. Right,
because yes, so you know your mileage may vary in
terms of where you what direction you feel is good,
(48:38):
and what speed you feel is good. That's a weird one,
but it is important for this episode, this period, you know, like, hey,
throw some of the rules out of the window. We
can cut some corners, because ultimately we have to remember
we're the good guys.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
Uh, this is probably what are we the goodest guys?
Speaker 1 (48:58):
But are we the goodest guys? What's our good osity?
But this probably influenced Marco Polo as a matter of fact,
it certainly influenced what he wrote later. And then Europeans
read that, and it didn't matter. Remember we print retractions
in the back of the paper, right, it didn't matter
that later the sect went back to a more strict
(49:24):
or austere interpretation of Islam. The damage was done, and
everybody who didn't like these folks, Christian and Muslim alike,
was able to say, well, are they really some sort
of religious warriors. They don't even bother following the rules
at home, you know, which is a great argument to make,
and that's part of why no one came to help
(49:45):
in the thirteenth century when Mongol invaders breached the stronghold.
They breached Alamuk Castle in twelve fifty six, and they
put an end to the Nazari the Assassins, at.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Least that's what we believe, right exactly.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Guys, do you have any favorite assassin sects from pop culture?
From video games, from movies, TV series, books. I really
like the Faceless Men from Game of Thrones. I think
that's one of the coolest assassin sects in literature in
a lot of ways. I'm wondering if you guys have
any other cool references for folks to check out.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
For me, is the Elder Scrolls one Ben, remind me
what that is? The the Dark Brotherhood. Yeah, Dark Brotherhood.
I dig that they're great.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
They have the same taste in logos as us as well. Yeah,
then there's of course the Assassins and Assassin's creed. They're
more of like an anti hero kind of vibe. And
then I would say Faceless Men is great assassin groups.
I guess you could say, you know, it's weird. Is
(50:57):
James Bond in Assassin?
Speaker 4 (50:59):
I mean, yeah, eat as he is, he contains multitudes. Yeah,
he definitely does assassinate people for sure.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Yeah. I like the Kingsman's vibe, you know what I mean.
I like the gadgets in the suits. And these are
all these are all cultural artifacts or cultural descendants of
this real life group, the Assassins, because even after they
were wiped out, the word assassin had passed into the
common parlance in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, and you
(51:29):
can trace it through fiction and entertainment all the way
to the modern day. And I think is that part
of what you're getting at here a little bit?
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Yeah, I mean for sure, it's certainly something that has
captured the imagination of folks that are into this sort
of thing, you know, fantasy and fiction, because there is
this sense of, like like you said, Matt, the Assassin's
cree character is almost an anti hero, but at the
same time you root for them, you know, so the
Assassins will always have to be the bad guy. But
(52:00):
one thing I think the interesting about Assassins that we
haven't really touched on is that by nature they're sort
of not a moral but like they are a tool,
especially the faceless men. They don't take a stance politically.
They just do whatever they're paid to do, which I
think is a really interesting facet of being an assassin.
It's like we talked about having a political motivation or
(52:23):
you know, some zealoty, you know, zelotry kind of driven ideology,
But aren't assassins usually kind of just a tool of
whoever's paying them and they don't really have a stance.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
Well see that's where you bring things like the assassins
that exist in John Wick in the John Wick universe.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
Right, that's a that's I love that.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
I love those, But yeah, you pay for a job, right,
I mean they're hit men, right, more so than political
tools or something like that. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
I mean, yeah, we started off the episode talking about semantics,
and I think we're still hovering in this gray area
of like what is an assassin?
Speaker 4 (53:02):
What is a hit man?
Speaker 2 (53:04):
We know what a murderer is, we know what manslaughter
is or human murder, what would you call it?
Speaker 3 (53:09):
It's human death. But it's it's defined, I mean, it
is pretty clearly defined at least in the common usage
in English usage as a political killing, right, I mean
or killing of importance.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
In the modern day. You know, but think about like
it's it's weird because the motivation can be spread across
multiple individuals. Right. I am the owner and CEO of
United coum Quats Global Incorporated, LLC, whatever, And I am
(53:45):
so tired of the government that of the government that
rules the land where most of my common quat plantations are.
And so I am motivated to kill them and have
them replaced with a government that's more pro kum quat
or pro pro my organization.
Speaker 4 (54:05):
More sympathetic to the kum quat lobby, right.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
And so my motivation, my motivation is financial gain and power.
So I enlist the help of a let's say, a
religious sect or offshoot of secessionists in that country, and
they kill the prime minister or the president for me.
(54:27):
They may be doing it because they're getting paid. They
may be doing it because they believe their religion will
be better represented by a different government. So the thing is,
at the end of the day, the prime minister is
dead and the villains walk away happy.
Speaker 3 (54:43):
Yeah, and United kum Quat is victorious. I got really
I felt in coverall every time we said that word.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Isn't that like?
Speaker 4 (54:51):
Is that a tiny orange? Isn't that what a kumquat is?
It's like a little tiny or what do you even
do with them? Do you just eat them? With the
skin on and everything?
Speaker 3 (54:59):
Like?
Speaker 2 (54:59):
It seems like an awful lot to peel such a
tiny fruit. I would imagine you would just pop it
right in your mouth.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
It's like the size of an olive. Yeah, but it's
like it's citral. It looks like an orange and shape
and color. I don't know. I just chose it as
a memorable.
Speaker 4 (55:16):
No, it's a beautiful word.
Speaker 2 (55:17):
So could we maybe say that not all hits are assassinations,
but all assassinations are hits.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
Perhaps that's kind of what we said at the top.
Speaker 2 (55:25):
Okay, Yeah, just to just to leave it with that
from my own, you know, Clariff clarity, I think this
is so fascinating. But I think it's interesting how there's
that intersection, because it all depends on the prominence and
perhaps the end result, you know, as to whether it
qualifies as an assassination.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
Yeah, And speaking of end results, here we are we
know that the military might of this group or what
or the assassinatory might of this group faded over time,
but it's important to note the faith itself survived and
doesn't have anything to do with assassinations, So we want
(56:03):
to be very careful not to vilify this religious community.
You can find Ismaili in twenty five different countries today,
at least Central and South Asia, Africa, the Middle East.
The reputation of the group we refer to as assassins nowadays,
I think we built a pretty good case. It was
(56:24):
founded on some exaggerations by their enemies, right, some propaganda,
but their tactics were effective and it's strange to realize
that such a small group of people could have such
a profound impact on history. More importantly, it's disturbing to
realize just how much influence and inspiration they gave to
(56:46):
their imitators ever since. And that's where we end today's episode.
How much of an impact do you think, fellow conspiracy realists,
that the Assassins had on the world in their time,
and how much of that impact, if any, remains with
us in the modern day.
Speaker 3 (57:07):
That's a great question, and can't wait to hear what
you all think this is going to conclude this episode
of assassins, but guess what, there's another one coming. We're
going to delve into more modern day assassins. We're going
to get closer to the present. Are there still people
(57:29):
out there in groups that are specifically designed and operated
to commit assassinations? I bet you know the answer to that,
at least a little bit. We're going to tell you
all about it next episode.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
In the meantime, right as tell us your favorite assassin
groups or individuals Lone Wolf assassins from pop culture. We'd
love to hear all about it. You can find us
on the usual social media spots. I think our preferred
place on the Internet are Our happy place is the
Here's where it Gets Crazy Facebook group. You can join
the conversation there. I'm sure this is gonna generate some
(58:03):
great memes and posts from you and your fellow conspiracy realist,
So check that out Here's where it Gets Crazy on Facebook.
Just name one of anybody involved in the show some
reference to let us know that you're a real human
being and you are.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
In And if you don't care to communicate via social media,
unless you use really up twosemeans like the Lake City
Quiet pills. Guys, then go ahead and just give us
a phone call, you know, loop ma bell into this conversation.
Hit us up. We're one eight three three std WYTK.
(58:38):
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anything related to this episode, suggestions for a future episode
you think your fellow listeners would enjoy, and most importantly,
let us know whether or not you are comfortable with
us using your name and or voice on air.
Speaker 3 (58:58):
Don't forget to head over to YouTube slash conspiracy stuff.
It's the channel that's been around for many, many a
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(59:23):
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(59:44):
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Speaker 2 (59:47):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Fellow conspiracy realists. We are returning with a couple of
classic episodes as we're on the road and at points
abroad and domestic guys, remember when we started looking into assassins, Yeah,
I ever started.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I mean it's a fascination for sure. Their their creed,
you know, whatever, whatever you whatever, whatever you've got right
for real.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I think anybody who ever got into a singular Assassin's
Creed game or maybe the entire series, the concept of
assassins and the way they build the history right throughout
those games is it's fascinating, and that's one of the
primary reasons you want to play the game, Like, I
need to unlock more of this little what is this?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Who does a fabulous job with some modern kind of
Assassin's law? Is the John Wick movies with the whole
the High Table and all of that stuff, Oh your
marker and coin as dog.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, we looked into it, folks, and one of our
primary questions a few years back was what's the difference
between an assassination and your garden variety homicide.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
It's all about intent, that's the end of the episode.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Now, it's got a lot to do with it, and
also who pays you who is, you know, the one
putting out.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
The hit m M. And as we find in this episode,
it goes way back, like well over a thousand years
ago to where you can find, you know, at least
the written down origins of an actual thing that we're
going to learn about in just a moment.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I guess you don't have to be paid to be
someone who is doing an assassination. I believe the killer
of Archduke Franz Ferdinand was acting of his own volition,
as is well, exactly exactly Matt. But then you know
the individual who shot John Lennon again, was he though?
But yeah, as signs point too, it was just somebody
(02:04):
who kind of got to be in their bonnet about
that particular dude. But yet that was absolutely considered an assassination.
If I'm not mistaken, certainly historically referred to as such, you.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Are not mistaken. It's also not always as we'll see
about the money now, folks, we're going to join people
from thousands of years ago in this classic episode. All
we ask is that you join us in twenty twenty.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
(02:37):
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. Today, we're embarking on a two
part episode, one that travels across time and space from
the ancient Middle East all the way to the modern day.
(03:24):
Let's let's start this way without too much too much introduction.
What is the difference between an assassination and a murder? Well,
here are the facts. We all kind of know what
an assassin is, right.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yes, at least to an extent, we know that an
assassin is a murderer. Right, in order to assassinate something
or someone, you have to murder it or kill it, right.
Whereas a typical murderer that is out there might commit homicide,
which is taking the life of another human being for
(04:02):
any number of reasons. And we have laws on the
books to differentiate between those types of homicides and degrees.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Right, there's the Weirdly enough, just from a linguistic standpoint,
the coolest sounding one, manslaughter is actually lelie yeah, than man,
than murder in the first degree.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
It's like, whoops, I hit you with my car. That's manslaughter.
And it's a little sexist, an outdated term. By the way.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Just want to say, but human death, Yes, you caused
human death.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
That's good, Matt.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
So it appears that assassination is a genre of homicide,
and that's correct. But why is it a genre. Well,
an assassin is defined by their target, their tactics, and
their motivations. So if we it's interesting because recently this
(05:00):
year there was a huge hubbub in Western media about
the use of a word, the word being assassination or assassin.
Webster's New World College Dictionary, which MPR uses for their
editorial purposes as their kind of guide for how to
write reporting, they define an assassin as someone who murders
(05:22):
a politically important or prominent person, typically by a surprise attack,
usually for some sort of payment or in the service
of some sort of ideological belief. And this sounds cold
when we look at it this way, because that means that,
let's say, someone knocks over a gas station in a robbery,
(05:43):
they fatally shoot cashier. That makes that criminal a murderer,
but not an assassin. An assassin would be someone who
fatally attacks the president of a country, unless, of course
they somehow I'm laughing, this is ridiculous, unless of course
they somehow accidentally kill the president, which which is terrible manslaughter.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, by like accidentally giving them coronavirus. Maybe maybe, yeah, maybe, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
I mean, that person is definitely in for a good
talking to a stiff. Fine, perhaps, But you know, is
that going to be considered an assassination? Well, I don't know, right,
maybe if it was premeditated, that's certainly one of the factors.
But my question for you, two Ben is like, what
if say someone was paid to kill a prominent podcaster,
At what point do you go into the realm of
(06:34):
like being politically important enough to be assassinated versus just
oft you know, or or have a hit put out
on you don't.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Don't worry, dude. We're off the table for assassinations, are
you sure? Yeah, because it keeps me up nights. We
cannot be assassinated murdered, certainly.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Okay, right, we can.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I feel better now, stabbed or shot. Yeah, that's interesting
because to a degree or definition of what counts as
an assassination is something we arrive at retroactively.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
But if you, for instance, someone who may not be
seen as prominent may be murdered and their death may
set off a series of events that changes the world,
and later historians will say it was an assassination for
that reason.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Like Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Right, Yeah, well I would He's already an assassination worthy victim, right,
because he's an archduke. Right. You see, the question gets complex,
Like the most one of the weirdest examples of this
that I could think of was the story of the
biblical Cain and Abel. Was Kane just a murderer or
(07:48):
was he an assassin before the term existed? I mean,
it checks the boxes. He launched a surprise attack on
a politically and socially important person, and he did it
because he was driven by zealous beliefs.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
It was his brother though, right.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Wasn't his jealousy though, because his father liked the other
brother better.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I get you.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
I think I think that see what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You're using this as like almost like a microcosmic mini
story that sort of encapsulates the larger thing because it
was political because he was.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Favored by his father.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Therefore, it was motivated because he wanted to be the
favorite son.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah. And the twist with that is with such a
small cast of characters in that story, everybody is prominent
and politically and socially.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
That's that's really smart. Ben I like that.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
And then in the end Cain was condemned by God
and forced to walk the earth like another Caine from
Kung Fu.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
It just made me realize, maybe that's where that came from.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
And maybe that's where it came from. Yeah, exactly this. Okay,
So this murder versus assassination thing, it might seem like
it's a game of semantics, like it doesn't really make
a big difference calling something an assassination versus calling it
a murder. Definitely doesn't bring that person back from the dead.
But the difference, as we'll find, is huge and it's crucial.
(09:13):
In some cases, it has legal implications, like earlier this year,
the United States of America targeted a prominent Iranian general,
Cossam Solomani in January, and news organizations like MPR, FOX,
CNN all the hits were. They were really concerned about
(09:35):
how they should describe this, and that's because murder has
a legal implication, as does assassination.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Well, it's like the maybe the military jargon would be
eliminating a high level target or something along those lines.
But the idea of calling an assassination is a bad look,
you know. PR wise, It's like, that's where the semantics
do matter for the optics of this. We don't assassinate people,
we take out targets.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Well, yeah, exactly, because when NPR actually labeled this action
and assassination, it became a big deal and there was
a lot of outcry from audience members about just again,
the semantics of it. This was not an assassination. No,
you can't call it that. Don't call it that.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
We're the good guys, good dams don't attack with daggers
and drones in the dark.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
But I guarantee you the people in Sulamani's own country
sure as hell considered an assassination, didn't they.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's weird because this strategy, if
we just objectively look at this strategy, it doesn't matter
what you call it. It matters what happened, and This
strategy of assassination is familiar to cultures across the planet
throughout the ages. I mean just from like from John
(10:59):
walk Spooth, a famous US based assassin, right he assassinated
then President Abraham Lincoln. From that guy, all the way
back to the ancient days with people like Lacousta the Poisoner.
You don't have to look very far, very deep defined
historical records of assassins. There's a book. I guess I'll
just hold it up. We'll do a little disturbing reading
(11:22):
rainbow here. I don't know if you guys can see this.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
There's a lot of Caravaggio on the cover. I love
that image.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Let's see is it yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:30):
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
But either way, it's one of those classic Like it
looks like the cover of a Joy Division album. It's
like this person dead in the bath with their arm
kind of draped over the side.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
That classic.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
I believe it's impressionists, but it's you know, caravagi. You
would be a great example, really high definition, super moody
and very kind of eerie image. I love those types
of paintings.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
The Encyclopedia of Assassinations available at any arcane bookstore near you.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right by Carl Sificus. This explorer both attempted and successful
assassinations throughout human history, and interestingly enough, it lists several cases,
such as that of dag Hammer Scold. Yeah it's a
cool name. It lists that case as an assassination, but
(12:18):
that still has not been officially confirmed as such, even
though the US president at the time dag Hammer Skull
was in charge of the UN when he was when
he died in a mysterious airplane accident. We have an
old YouTube video on that. But the point is this,
this book is pretty old, but these cases of assassination,
(12:43):
because of the controversy, they remain very touchy subjects for
a long long time. And so today in the in
the first part of our series, we wanted to ask
where did this come from? Where? Where does the concept
of an assassin actually originate? We'll tell you after a
(13:04):
word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. Assassin
isn't some dramatic, exotic word some hack writer invented to
just sort of z up an otherwise depressing murder story.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
It's IP for Mobisoft.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
It's IP for movies soft right. In fact, the term
Assassin refers to an all too real, all too conspiratorial
organization from ancient history. It's an honest to God's secret society.
Let's call it the Order of Assassins.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Ooh, oh my god. Wait, you're saying it's real. That's
what we're saying. The Order of Assassins is real or was?
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Uh no, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Well, we're not saying, you know, we're not saying Assassin's
Creed should be considered a playable documentary. Although there's a
lot of great historical research in there. We're we're saying
there was a real group. We don't know a ton
about them. This is something that you'll always run into
when you're looking at controversial institutions in ancient history. The
(14:25):
fortress of the Assassins, and they did have a real fortress,
was conquered in twelve fifty six CE. And when they were.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Conquered, the.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Castle was raised essentially their library was destroyed. So we
have no written historical records about the Assassins from the
Assassins themselves. Still we do know some things.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Between ten ninety and twelve seventy five, a small Nizari
Ismaili sect, high in the mountains of Persia and Syria,
went into the murder for higher business. The Assassins were
an offshoot of the Ismaili sect of Shia Islam, and
it was founded by Hassan Is Sabah, who referred to
(15:11):
his followers as I'm gonna oh okay asasi yun a
s A s I y y u n with some
underscore characters over the A and the U, and that
means people who are faithful to the foundation of faith,
and they were. They had this stronghold fortress called a
(15:31):
La Mut's Castle that was about one hundred and thirty
miles from what is today known as Tehran.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I mean, it's just so cool to me that that's real.
So the concept here of this group they wanted to
challenge the Turks who were Sunni Muslims. So we're we're
talking about Shia and Sunny conflicts back in what did
we say, the one thousand and ninety CE to twelve
(16:04):
one hundred seventy five CE, the Sunni Muslims, these Seljuk Turks,
they were in control of Persia at this time when
when this group was organized for these purposes, and this
is when the group first became known as the Hashashen
another cool word here, but today they're better known as assassins.
(16:24):
It's a term that was given to them by the
European crusaders who are rolling through and you know, doing their.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Thing, those Europeans, just making language work for them, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Yeah, just kind of a corruption of the phrase, right,
But that's what you get with a living language. This group,
known as the Assassins, they actively and covertly murdered first
Muslim then later Christian leaders throughout the Middle East. And
they murdered these folks or assassinated these folks when they
(17:01):
were seen as a threat to this sect, to their society,
to their geopolitical control. And while the term assassins applies
to the whole crew, right, there was actually only a
smaller inner group known as the Fidai that engaged in
(17:22):
actual conflict in what is sometimes euphemistically referred to as
direct action. This is important.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Now.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
We do have to say that none of us are
fluent Arabic speakers, so thank you in advance for your
understanding of our pronunciations. We do know that the Nazari
did not have a standing army, so they relied upon
these warriors, these operatives to carry out espionage. Why kill
(17:56):
an why fight an army when you can just kill
the king or the general. Their preferred method of killing
was usually going to be through the use of daggers,
so that means close up to their target, no poison
drop offs, no arrows, and often they were known for
(18:17):
being completely okay with dying or being tortured after they
had committed their murder. They posed a strategic threat to Fatimid,
Abyssid and Seljuk authority alike, and for almost three hundred
years we know they killed hundreds and hundreds of people
(18:38):
important people that era's version of VIPs three colleagues, ruler
of Jerusalem, tons of other leaders Muslim and Christian alike.
So despite the fact that we don't have direct accounts
from like Hassan himself saying I dope these guys up
and brainwashed them and now we're killing everybody, we have
(19:00):
accounts from other people who were alive or around at
the time. Manada, let's see what you think of these.
One of the first ones comes from a Spanish rabbi
named Benjamin of Tudela. He traveled through Syria in eleven
sixty seven. So this is why the group was active.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And Benjamin, not our Benjamin, the one we just mentioned.
He told of this mysterious leader that existed named the
Old Man in the Mountain. That's a the old Man
in the Mountain. That's what he referred to him as
Old Man in the Mountain, This old Man in the mountain,
this Yoda like figure, although he did not have that reference,
who led a sect of warriors who dwelled in hidden
(19:42):
mountain fortresses.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
More of a Palpatine, I think.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, it is more of a Palpatine. And it's gosh,
I can't remember which episode. I think we did one
on military and Drugs where we talked about the mountain
fortresses in several parts of the region there and how
important they were, and then how we saw that reflected
in the conflicts that the US then went into and
places around Afghanistan and out in the Middle East, and
(20:09):
these mountain fortresses that were so difficult to if you
were an invading force or someone who's trying to attack,
so difficult to penetrate. But that's an interesting thing, right,
There's an old man in a mountain and he's he
is controlling or leading a bunch of these warriors that
live there. And there's also information quite a bit more
(20:32):
actually that comes from Syrian Sunni chroniclers, and you know,
it's there, it exists, which is very nice, but unfortunately
quite a bit of this information is biased. Again, you
have to remember that there was conflict there between the
Shia and the Sunni Muslims, and because of that conflict,
(20:53):
the Syrian Sunni population really did hate or at least
some of these prominent writers seem to show anger and
hatred in the writing or at least writing about them
from you know, from an enemy's perspective, because they were
the enemies, and they probably did hate them because they
did some heinous things.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah they had, I mean, they had every reason, ye
to hate the assassins.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
But it just thinks of the historical record, then itself
becomes this version of it rather than well, let's you know,
let's actually look at it as equal parts in some
way or at least in some form.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And the Crusaders were aware of these chronicles from the
from the Syrian Sunni population. They said, look, this is
close enough to the truth. Someone's out here killing everybody,
so let's just run hogwild. With it. You know, who
(21:51):
has time to fact check. That's a problem we have
in the modern day. So as a result, we have
to treat these stories with skepticism. It's kind of like
propaganda you would see against the pope by their successors,
or against royalty, a lot of them.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Against any army, you know, yeah, armies that the propaganda
this is produced is intense.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So yeah, they're gonna say, like, you can read some
of these things and translations thereof and say, Okay, this
looks like maybe it was designed to entertain an audience
or just to character assassinate the assassins themselves. And they
talked about how powerful, how competent these operatives were, but
(22:33):
then they also made these pretty crazy claims about how
they became so successful.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, And in the twelfth century, William the Second, who
was a crusader and the Archbishop of Tire believed that
this whole old Man in the Mountain idea was true
and that he commanded this individual as many as sixty
thousand assassins. And he noted that they would do suicide attacks.
They had no regard for their own safety in their
(23:02):
own lives. They were seeking destroy and if they don't
make it out alive, so be it. It's all about
the target and getting the job done of.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
This old man in the Mountain figure.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
William the Icond wrote this quote, it is their custom
to install their masters and choose their chief, not by
hereditary right, but solely by virtue of merit. What a
novel idea, by the way, disdaining any other title of dignity.
They call him the Elder. The bond of submission and
obedience that binds this people to their chief is so
(23:33):
strong that there's no task so arduous, difficult or dangerous
that any one of them would not undertake to perform
it with the greatest zeal and you know, speaking back
to the propaganda and the war of words and trying
to smear folks to be taken with a grain of salt.
But there there were reports about this group that they
God forbid ate pork and married their sisters.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Which were to unpack that that quotation from William the Second.
He's not saying meritocracy is a good thing. He's pointing
it out as a criticism. He's implying their barbaro because
they don't because they respect people's talents over their genetic
lottery whichever.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
So counterinto it if fascinating and like a product of
the time, you know what I mean, what they.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Don't have a royal pure bloodline, the lineage sending directly
to God, you know, for shame.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Like they hire people based on their skills, they promote
them based on their skills, They eat pork, and they're
sleeping with their siblings. All three of those things were
just terrible.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
And somehow the people who join up are willing to
do things for their leaders.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Willing to right right right. It's almost like the chance
of being promoted makes people better at their jobs. That's
a very that's Please don't make that the main takeaway
from today's episode, but yeah, you're right. The fact is
they that this guy noticed these people were not the
(25:14):
type of individuals to turn away from a task, even
if it meant that they would be killed in completing
it or captured and tortured afterwards. In some ways, this
was seen as noble in this community. So these rumors
are around. It's kind of a an urban legend. It's
kind of a conspiracy theory, and there's proof in you know,
(25:38):
in terms of dead bodies of important people. They keep
showing up at weird times in history. It gets really
popular and mischaracterized in Western Europe thanks to one of
the best selling books of the medieval era, the Travels
of Marco Polo. It's this book alone spread so many
(25:59):
claims about the order, and if we read it through
the lens of the modern day, it sounds like Marco
is telling us the Assassins are a cult. There's this
idea that the elder, the old man in the mountain,
starting with Hassan himself, has been brainwashing his followers, has
(26:20):
been doping them with some sort of substance. Again, we
don't know the exact nature of that substance, but hashisham
assassins Hashish the rumor is, or at least what he
says in the book is that the old Man of
the Mountain is giving his followers a drugged potion during
(26:42):
their training, right, and this is breaking down the usual
human moral qualms with things like assassination. And then before
he sets them off on an assassination mission, he gives
them some version of this. Again, so it has a
lot in common think about it with reports of like
(27:03):
Manchurian candidates, people who are through systematic psychological tactics and
through the ingestion of substance, they're turned into zombies, you know, or.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
You know, here's the deal is it? Are we saying
we think, at least according to that book, we think
it might be hashish is that and that is cannabis
and weed? Right, mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
It's It's basically like, it's the stuff that's the sticky
crystal stuff that sticks to.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
The outside of cannabis.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
When it's cured, they can shake it off and you
essentially make it into like you press it and make
it into a resinous kind of material that is able
to be smoked.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
So I've heard, but we're saying, we're saying, or the
travels of Marco Polo is saying that that's the substance
that made them in some way become a Manchurian candidate,
like the when out of their minds about.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
It's interesting though, because so Hashishim Hashisham is the nickname
for the sect that was used by a lot of
its enemies or uh in casual conversation about this group,
and it was believed to have derived from the Arabic
word hashish, So naturally you can see how that didn't
(28:27):
come directly from Marco Polo's book that was already around.
But when Marco Polo mentioned this drugged potion, it cemented
the image of this order in the zeitgeist of the time.
So they were like, these are shadowy, drug crazed fanatics.
They may have powers that the average undrugged human being
(28:50):
doesn't have, you know what I mean? And to a
degree psychologically that might be accurate. But you could say
that about any number of any number of groups who
institute systematized suicide attacks.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Wow, hey man, look we're all the same. But I
just gotta assassinate you, bro.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
I'm sorry. Yeah, here hit this verse. It'll make you
way more.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Chill exactly, more crazed in assassiny.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So if this is true, think about it. If this
is true, it boggles the mind. How is this not
brought up more often, especially during these moral panics. I
love that you mentioned reefer madness nol because if again,
if this is true, it's one of the best PSAs
against the use of cannabis in human history, right, Like
(29:40):
smoke a joint and then go kill the king.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
That's a mindless murder machine.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right right? And I love that that rhymes. Thank you.
This there's a reason. I guess there's one reason that
this didn't show up in a lot of psash. Well, first,
most people and be familiar with this story. But secondly,
it turns out that Marco Polo is the primary propagator
(30:08):
for this hash claim. If you look at the sources
from the Islamic world, even among the Assassin's enemies, even
among the Seljukes and the Syrians who hated them, they
don't they don't really mention the use of hashish. So
maybe a more convincing explanation for that nickname comes from
the Egyptian Arabic word hashashien, and that that means something
(30:33):
totally different. It's a little silly. It means like noisy
people or the troublemakers.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Wasn't Marco Polo known to be a bit of an
exaggerator too, and possibly inventing some stuff just like out
a whole cloth to make himself look like more of
a badass explorer.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's true. It's a curated version
of reality, right, But a lot of a lot of
the things he says didn't bear up the scrutiny. Still,
it was the best information people had at the time,
So this is why modern scholars, people like Bernard Lewis,
who is a Middle Eastern historian and expert on the assassins,
(31:14):
believes that hashishi or hashishm was a popular Syrian pejorative.
It was a term of abuse. We're discrediting these people.
You know, sure they're effective killers, but they're drug addicts,
and you know it's the devil's tobacco. It's the jazz
cigarettes and the left hand smokes that are making them
(31:36):
such effective monsters. So you can see already that the
image people have of assassins in the modern day, and
the image people had of assassins when they were around
kind of became larger than life. They were living legends.
There was a lot of disinformation about them, and we
can only assume they probably used it to their credit,
(31:58):
because it's the kind of pr you can't buy. But
this is just one of the misconceptions. So I propose
we take a break for our sponsor, try our best
not to get assassinated, and come back and explore some
of those misconceptions in just a moment. What do you
guys think?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
It sounds great? Everybody cross your fingers and hope that
it's a CBD sponsor Okay, cool, that's good.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
And we've returned misconceptions about a group of killers in
ancient Persia slash Syria. This is the slightly awkward part
where we defend their character.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
I'm here for it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
But so, a lot of medieval Europeans knew about the Order,
especially once the travels of Marco Polo were published. They
believe that this group was specifically targeting Christians. So this
is fuel to the fire for the Crusades and for
other campaigns. Right now, we're fighting to protect good Christian
(33:13):
people against this threat.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Make you a cog in our Holy war kind of.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Situation, right, But this thing was not entirely true. In fact,
it turns out this happens all the time in the
world of politics. It turns out these people who are
like publicly enemies to each other, behind closed doors, they
would not infrequently get together and be like, hey, you
know what, man, I know, I guess there's a lot
(33:39):
of stuff going on. It's the bridge under the water,
are you guys high? Don't worry about it. Let's just
let's work something out. Maybe we can make an alliance.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You know, well, you know that we're about to talk
about something here coming up, which is another part of
the misconceptions. But there are some realities that this group
faced that makes me one if there was use of
cannabis or some other drug like that, if it didn't
have more to do with their situation and less to
(34:09):
do with tactics for battle. It's a bit of a spoiler,
but we'll keep going here.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
No, I think it's I think it's foreshadowing, Matt. So
we wanted to pull one example of times that Christian
forces and Assassin forces got together. Right in twelve fifty one,
the King of France, Louis the ninth, sent some invoys
to meet the assassins, to go and find the Old
(34:35):
Man or the elder of the legends, and this meeting.
They took the meeting because it suited their diplomatic needs
at the time. Otherwise it seems like the sect was
they were Yeah, they were killing people when they had
to or when they wanted to, but they were largely
(34:56):
uninterested in Christians, at least at that time. They were
primarily focused on all the crazy changes happening in the
Muslim world and the events that had shaped them. They
were also shaping these events in turn, and that's because
of their assassination tactics. Let's go to what you said, Matt,
(35:20):
about not just the rumors of drug use, but about
how these tactics it came to be. It wasn't so
much a matter of religious belief or what is the
moral right way to kill someone. It was necessity. It
was desperation. Even if you take that sixty thousand number
(35:43):
in good faith, we have to remember only a few
people in the Assassin's order were actually killing folks, were
actually going out on these missions. Hassan was outgunned and
outnumbered the whole time.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
He was outgunned, outmanned, out numbered, out planned.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I guess, yes, yes, yes, he was very much so.
And he was also I guess everybody was out gunned
at that time.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Knives probably, this is like the knife age, right.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
These guys are using knives. Yeah, they're using daggers to kill.
Arrows are around, swords are round.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
But yeah, they come they come out of their arms
like that. That's that's how they were.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah, they pop out from the wrists. Uh. Yes, So
he knew. He knew that there was no way they
could wage what we would call like conventional war of
the time. They didn't have the numbers.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, so we had to resort to being more crafty,
and we're talking about some James Bond level here, guerrilla warfare, espionage, spying,
targeted killings, assassinations. There would be sleeper agents that would
basically travel in disguise and you know, pose as members
of the community in which they were trying to infiltrate
(37:01):
to get a better beat on their targets and insert
themselves into these very important strategic positions so that they
could have the upper hand, right.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, I mean it may sound familiar again, like we
just dropped a reference to the Revolutionary War, a version
of a telling of the Revolutionary War. But yeah, whenever
I think this is a commonality, whenever you have a
small force that needs to operate effectively.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
Wasn't Hercules Mulligan a spy? Wasn't that his deal.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Spoilers? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
I think I think so that.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
No, like Hercules Mulligan is a real guy, was a spy.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
He also got firebars, dude.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yeah, yeah, that was his first love. I think that
and being a tailor and then you know Third America.
But but think of that, you know, we always think
of sleeper agents in the context of I guess like
the Cold War here in the West, right, that was
the worry deep cover sleeper agents from the US going
(38:11):
into the USSR and vice versa. But they existed in
these ancient times. These guys would say, Okay, we're gonna
kill this person. We're going to do it in two years.
So tonight, I'm going to travel with this caravan and
I'm going to set up shop and I'm just gonna
you know, I'm just I'm gonna sell trinkets and Choschki's
(38:33):
for a while until the time comes. That's why I
break out my drugged potion, break out my dagger. About
a being about a boom, they did not say about
it being about a boom, We're pretty.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Did they say drugs potion?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Though? Because God, I love that phrase. It just sounds
like a good good time, a drugs potion, I.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Want to breathe. We should refer to things as potions
more often, right, I know there's some like there are
probably some craft brewery that use the phrase alixir. But
let's bring back potion.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Oh well, remember Philip Seymour Hoffman's character and the Paul
Thomas Anderson movie The Master. He was really taken by
Freddie Joaquin Phoenix is kind of unhinged, like you know
that character, because he would make this hoots out of
rocket fuel and like you know, photography, chemicals and and
(39:23):
and this character of Phil tim Hoffin's character refers to
it as give me another taste of that delectable potion,
love it or something.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
About pots bring back potions. Uh, that's okay. So so
we've mentioned this special core. The people were actually doing
the assassinations. They're sometimes also known as the Fedayin.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
They they were very very effective, and they were very
very selective. They the name translates to those who sacrificed themselves.
They were drilled to this is the most mind blowing part.
So they weren't just drilled to accept the possibility of
(40:07):
death or the possibility of torture. They were taught to
find and eliminate their target and then wait to be
discovered and then willingly submit to torture execution. That's terrible
for the individual, but imagine how amazing that is for
the order.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Yeah, exactly, setting a precedent that this is going to
this is what's going to happen. You know who did it,
and you don't get any information out of them and
you can torture them until they die. And oh god,
how many are there? Wait, there are a lot of
them like this.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
We'll send another one. Yeah, exactly, and a lot of assassination,
as we'll see in part two of this series, is
about sending a message, and that's what they were doing.
So we would today consider this a kind of asymmetrical warfare.
Why do you fight an entire network? Why do you
attempt to go against an entire system when you can
(41:03):
pop one link in the chain, right, you can get
that individual dot at the top of the command structure,
and you can create all the results you aimed to achieve.
You sow discord, you make the opponent squander their resources,
and you make them expect even more terrible things from
(41:26):
you in the future, and you put them on the defensive.
So there. I don't know, it can play out one
hundred different ways. But one example of this comes to
us in ten ninety two. Just to give you an
actual snapshot of how this group successfully conspired and carried
out these murders.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yeah, and this example comes to us from ten ninety two.
This is when this group of assassins murdered or assassinated
the visier Nizam al Mulk. He was a powerful member
of the Soljuk Sultanate, and the records that were available
(42:07):
from that time they say that Nasari disguised himself as
a Sufi mystic and was able to infiltrate, get in close,
close enough to stab this person and kill them.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Pray with me, my son.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
Yes, yeah, it's intense. And this assassination had a real
domino effect, as we've been describing.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Exactly because shortly after the murder of Nazam al Muk,
who was sort of think of him like if the
sultan is the president, this guy is one of the
secretaries of the cabinet kind of, so it's as if
a secretary of the cabinet was murdered. People are freaking out.
(42:59):
And then at little bit later, the sultan himself, Sultan
Malik Shah, is murdered. And at this point historians argue
back and forth over whether that second murder was the assassins,
but it doesn't matter because this domino effect goes into
play very quickly. The Seljuks and chaos. Who is supposed
(43:20):
to be in charge here there are people wearing disguises
and killing us like I can't trust anyone. You know,
what about that guy, how long has he been in town? Well,
that guy says he grew up here, but is that true?
And then the attacks continued. The assassins started killing more rulers, generals, governors, clerics,
(43:47):
anyone anyone who was seen in their eyes as an enemy.
And they seemed to be everywhere and nowhere. You know
what I mean. There's not an official uniform. It could
be the mystic next to you, It could be the
merchant two stalls down in the marketplace. So people got
really paranoid, right, They started hiring bodyguards even if they
(44:10):
thought they might not be the number one target. They
wanted to also wear chain mail under their clothing, like
think about these are terroristic tactics.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
You know, Ben, It's really this is very reminiscent to
the fear that permeated the United States, and I would
say a lot of the Western world and probably the
entire world following the September eleventh attacks of two thousand
and one, where it felt like anybody could be a target, right.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Even folks that were separated from like big urban centers
like in Middle America really felt vulnerable in that way
where maybe there's a sense of oh, we're away from
all the big cities, we're somehow safe or not on
the radar. But that whole kind of comfort level really
went out the window.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Yeah, and for very good reason. You know. I mean,
humans back then aren't that different from humans today. We
just have more toys. We're talking about the assassins in
the past tense at least this group, this origin story,
because eventually they did fall. They were active and effective
for the better part of three centuries, and they continued
(45:10):
after the death of their founder. The Old Man in
the Mountain died in eleven twenty four sometime around then,
and the sect continued without him. In eleven thirty eight,
his successor, one buzurg Umid died died as well. I'm
laughing because we know the date of his death thanks
(45:33):
to their big fans, the Sunni chroniclers. One Sunny chronicler
described his death in the following way. He says, brazog
Omed died crushed under the heel of perdition, so hell
was heated by the fuel of his carcass.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Oh man, the sick burn very very literally hah, very
very visual. Wow, what a what a wonderful wonderfully hateful
way of referring to this.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Yeah, it's very I spit on your grave style, as
obituaries go. But the order continued on, and that means
that the murders, especially of high ranking Sunni figures, continued.
In the eleven sixties, leadership fell to Hassan the second
Hassan too. He took the branch in a different theological direction.
(46:22):
Now this is really interesting. Remember we talked about the
propaganda saying, look, implying heavily like, look, these guys aren't
even real Muslims. They pork, they're marrying their siblings. Don't
fall for the hype. But Hassan two did something interesting.
He said, you know, if you're a true believer, if
(46:43):
you're willing to die for this cause, you are relieved.
You are absolved from moral customs, pray when you can
where you can. If you can't turn the direction of Mecca,
that's fine. You can do things they're regarded as openly
sinful as well, because you were ultimately in service of,
wait for it, the greater good.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Snap.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
I didn't realize it was the greater good that this
whole thing was about.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Okay, cool, well, changes everything, right? I mean, it's the
greater good. It's not the regular good anyway, that it's
the next level good, it's the most goodest.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
But that's such an Argument's it's just a.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Common argument for doing terrible things throughout history, in politics
and war, and it's, oh, it's for the greater good. Yeah,
we got to murder all these people, but it's okay
because you know, the greater good will benefit. So don't
think about this thing, think about the big picture. It's
just it's a way of pivoting responsibility from the you know,
the people that are actually doing the bad, the bad
(47:43):
stuff to I don't know, like it's it's it's interesting
because the greater good too, is also very very subjective, right,
what that even means?
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (47:52):
But why why why isn't it the greatest good?
Speaker 4 (47:56):
The goodest is called the best? It's for the best.
That people didn't say that too, don't they.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
It's for the best, but it means something different, doesn't it?
For the best just means well, come see comes uh. Yeah,
it's just that's just the way it went, and it
was for it was for the best. It's a lie
we tell ourselves, which I believe, so is the greater good.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Yeah, I mean I maybe we should Maybe we should
think about it as we'll just make up a word here,
will churchify a little? Maybe we should think about it as, uh,
the good osity, the speed and direction of a given good. Right,
because yes, so you know your mileage may vary in
terms of where you what direction you feel is good,
(48:38):
and what speed you feel is good. That's a weird one,
but it is important for this episode, this period, you know, like, hey,
throw some of the rules out of the window. We
can cut some corners, because ultimately we have to remember
we're the good guys.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
Uh, this is probably what are we the goodest guys?
Speaker 1 (48:58):
But are we the goodest guys? What's our good osity?
But this probably influenced Marco Polo as a matter of fact,
it certainly influenced what he wrote later. And then Europeans
read that, and it didn't matter. Remember we print retractions
in the back of the paper, right, it didn't matter
that later the sect went back to a more strict
(49:24):
or austere interpretation of Islam. The damage was done, and
everybody who didn't like these folks, Christian and Muslim alike,
was able to say, well, are they really some sort
of religious warriors. They don't even bother following the rules
at home, you know, which is a great argument to make,
and that's part of why no one came to help
(49:45):
in the thirteenth century when Mongol invaders breached the stronghold.
They breached Alamuk Castle in twelve fifty six, and they
put an end to the Nazari the Assassins, at.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
Least that's what we believe, right exactly.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Guys, do you have any favorite assassin sects from pop culture?
From video games, from movies, TV series, books. I really
like the Faceless Men from Game of Thrones. I think
that's one of the coolest assassin sects in literature in
a lot of ways. I'm wondering if you guys have
any other cool references for folks to check out.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
For me, is the Elder Scrolls one Ben, remind me
what that is? The the Dark Brotherhood. Yeah, Dark Brotherhood.
I dig that they're great.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
They have the same taste in logos as us as well. Yeah,
then there's of course the Assassins and Assassin's creed. They're
more of like an anti hero kind of vibe. And
then I would say Faceless Men is great assassin groups.
I guess you could say, you know, it's weird. Is
(50:57):
James Bond in Assassin?
Speaker 4 (50:59):
I mean, yeah, eat as he is, he contains multitudes. Yeah,
he definitely does assassinate people for sure.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Yeah. I like the Kingsman's vibe, you know what I mean.
I like the gadgets in the suits. And these are
all these are all cultural artifacts or cultural descendants of
this real life group, the Assassins, because even after they
were wiped out, the word assassin had passed into the
common parlance in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, and you
(51:29):
can trace it through fiction and entertainment all the way
to the modern day. And I think is that part
of what you're getting at here a little bit?
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Yeah, I mean for sure, it's certainly something that has
captured the imagination of folks that are into this sort
of thing, you know, fantasy and fiction, because there is
this sense of, like like you said, Matt, the Assassin's
cree character is almost an anti hero, but at the
same time you root for them, you know, so the
Assassins will always have to be the bad guy. But
(52:00):
one thing I think the interesting about Assassins that we
haven't really touched on is that by nature they're sort
of not a moral but like they are a tool,
especially the faceless men. They don't take a stance politically.
They just do whatever they're paid to do, which I
think is a really interesting facet of being an assassin.
It's like we talked about having a political motivation or
(52:23):
you know, some zealoty, you know, zelotry kind of driven ideology,
But aren't assassins usually kind of just a tool of
whoever's paying them and they don't really have a stance.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
Well see that's where you bring things like the assassins
that exist in John Wick in the John Wick universe.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
Right, that's a that's I love that.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
I love those, But yeah, you pay for a job, right,
I mean they're hit men, right, more so than political
tools or something like that. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
I mean, yeah, we started off the episode talking about semantics,
and I think we're still hovering in this gray area
of like what is an assassin?
Speaker 4 (53:02):
What is a hit man?
Speaker 2 (53:04):
We know what a murderer is, we know what manslaughter
is or human murder, what would you call it?
Speaker 3 (53:09):
It's human death. But it's it's defined, I mean, it
is pretty clearly defined at least in the common usage
in English usage as a political killing, right, I mean
or killing of importance.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
In the modern day. You know, but think about like
it's it's weird because the motivation can be spread across
multiple individuals. Right. I am the owner and CEO of
United coum Quats Global Incorporated, LLC, whatever, And I am
(53:45):
so tired of the government that of the government that
rules the land where most of my common quat plantations are.
And so I am motivated to kill them and have
them replaced with a government that's more pro kum quat
or pro pro my organization.
Speaker 4 (54:05):
More sympathetic to the kum quat lobby, right.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
And so my motivation, my motivation is financial gain and power.
So I enlist the help of a let's say, a
religious sect or offshoot of secessionists in that country, and
they kill the prime minister or the president for me.
(54:27):
They may be doing it because they're getting paid. They
may be doing it because they believe their religion will
be better represented by a different government. So the thing is,
at the end of the day, the prime minister is
dead and the villains walk away happy.
Speaker 3 (54:43):
Yeah, and United kum Quat is victorious. I got really
I felt in coverall every time we said that word.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Isn't that like?
Speaker 4 (54:51):
Is that a tiny orange? Isn't that what a kumquat is?
It's like a little tiny or what do you even
do with them? Do you just eat them? With the
skin on and everything?
Speaker 3 (54:59):
Like?
Speaker 2 (54:59):
It seems like an awful lot to peel such a
tiny fruit. I would imagine you would just pop it
right in your mouth.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
It's like the size of an olive. Yeah, but it's
like it's citral. It looks like an orange and shape
and color. I don't know. I just chose it as
a memorable.
Speaker 4 (55:16):
No, it's a beautiful word.
Speaker 2 (55:17):
So could we maybe say that not all hits are assassinations,
but all assassinations are hits.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
Perhaps that's kind of what we said at the top.
Speaker 2 (55:25):
Okay, Yeah, just to just to leave it with that
from my own, you know, Clariff clarity, I think this
is so fascinating. But I think it's interesting how there's
that intersection, because it all depends on the prominence and
perhaps the end result, you know, as to whether it
qualifies as an assassination.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
Yeah, And speaking of end results, here we are we
know that the military might of this group or what
or the assassinatory might of this group faded over time,
but it's important to note the faith itself survived and
doesn't have anything to do with assassinations, So we want
(56:03):
to be very careful not to vilify this religious community.
You can find Ismaili in twenty five different countries today,
at least Central and South Asia, Africa, the Middle East.
The reputation of the group we refer to as assassins nowadays,
I think we built a pretty good case. It was
(56:24):
founded on some exaggerations by their enemies, right, some propaganda,
but their tactics were effective and it's strange to realize
that such a small group of people could have such
a profound impact on history. More importantly, it's disturbing to
realize just how much influence and inspiration they gave to
(56:46):
their imitators ever since. And that's where we end today's episode.
How much of an impact do you think, fellow conspiracy realists,
that the Assassins had on the world in their time,
and how much of that impact, if any, remains with
us in the modern day.
Speaker 3 (57:07):
That's a great question, and can't wait to hear what
you all think this is going to conclude this episode
of assassins, but guess what, there's another one coming. We're
going to delve into more modern day assassins. We're going
to get closer to the present. Are there still people
(57:29):
out there in groups that are specifically designed and operated
to commit assassinations? I bet you know the answer to that,
at least a little bit. We're going to tell you
all about it next episode.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
In the meantime, right as tell us your favorite assassin
groups or individuals Lone Wolf assassins from pop culture. We'd
love to hear all about it. You can find us
on the usual social media spots. I think our preferred
place on the Internet are Our happy place is the
Here's where it Gets Crazy Facebook group. You can join
the conversation there. I'm sure this is gonna generate some
(58:03):
great memes and posts from you and your fellow conspiracy realist,
So check that out Here's where it Gets Crazy on Facebook.
Just name one of anybody involved in the show some
reference to let us know that you're a real human
being and you are.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
In And if you don't care to communicate via social media,
unless you use really up twosemeans like the Lake City
Quiet pills. Guys, then go ahead and just give us
a phone call, you know, loop ma bell into this conversation.
Hit us up. We're one eight three three std WYTK.
(58:38):
You've got three minutes. You'll just hear a voicemail and
it'll set you up. Let us know your thoughts about
anything related to this episode, suggestions for a future episode
you think your fellow listeners would enjoy, and most importantly,
let us know whether or not you are comfortable with
us using your name and or voice on air.
Speaker 3 (58:58):
Don't forget to head over to YouTube slash conspiracy stuff.
It's the channel that's been around for many, many a
year and we are uploading videos again with these conversations
with our faces. You know, hopefully you're into that. We
think it's okay. Yeah, well, please subscribe. Let other people know,
(59:23):
if you know, share that stuff out if you if
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(59:44):
send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 2 (59:47):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
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