February 12, 2026 • 61 mins
Could a mysterious slab of stone near Kensington, Minnesota hold the key to a forgotten piece of ancient history? According to the true believers, this stone, discovered in the late 1800s, proves that Vikings made it deep into the interior of North America in the 1300s -- only to disappear soon afterward, leaving no trace but a grisly story carved in runes upon the stone. Tune in to learn more.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fellow conspiracy realist. We want to talk about runs with
you today, Not the elder Scroll runs, not the elden
Ring runs, but the Kensington runs.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
This is cool stuff. I'm remembering this episode as I
take a look at some of the information here, and
this is one of those things find an artifact that
doesn't It appears to be out of place, right, there
shouldn't be this type of writing in this place from
this time.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Strange.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
But for today's episode, we're coming to Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, classic Viking territory. Right. This is the
idea that what modern historians call the Vikings made it
way past Newfoundland into the interior of what we call
the United States. And they did it way back in
the thirteen hundreds, and they left absolutely no trace except
(01:09):
for a mysterious slab of stone.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you
are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff
they don't want you to know. As we've explored in
previous episodes, our species knows roughly when and how human
(02:02):
beings first reached the continent we know of as North America,
but we still continue to search for more concrete that's
going to be such a horrible pun later answers about
who these people were. And as most of our fellow
conspiracy realists know, many of the things children are taught
about in North American history later turned out to be
(02:23):
either misleading or holy false. The best example of this
is probably the tale of Christopher Columbus or Crystal baal Cologne.
Without dating ourselves, guys, do you remember being taught about
Christopher Columbus in grade school, elementary, middle etc.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Any sale Ocean Blue in fourteen ninety two, oh forever? Yeah,
that's what I remember.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Into our psychees, Yeah that's what I remember. But yeah,
the the Nina, the Pinta, the Santa Maria, all that stuff,
And I remember how exciting it was to say that
quickly right outside of that, you know, as far as
the actual explorations and you know who was behind them.
I vaguely remember the details.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
But yeah, yeah, it's strange because a lot of kids,
especially in the West, in the US and Canada, were
taught a somewhat simplified version of history right of European
transatlantic exploration towards this continent and towards South America as well.
(03:32):
But obviously, current historical research indicates Columbus was far from
the first European to reach what we call North America. Right,
But if this explorer was not the first, then who was.
According to one group of researchers, the answer may be
found in a slab of rock located, of all places
(03:55):
in modern day Douglas County, wait for it, Minnesota. That's
called the Kensington Runestone. Nolie pointed out, this reminded you
a bit of the Georgia guidestones, and I definitely see
the similarities. But first off, Minnesota, it's inland. It's far
(04:16):
far away from where a ship would be at that time, right, well, it.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Is, but it does offer us a really good opportunity
because it's in Minnesota and it involves Nordic or Scandinavian ruins.
I think we get to do both a Minnesota and
a Scandinavian accent.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
It is. It is pretty much between Minneapolis and Fargo.
I mean it's like almost in between there at closer
to Fargo.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So here are the facts. What are we talking about.
I know some of us listening, maybe our heads exploded
when they said, all right, well, finally they're going to
give us the truth about the runestone. Which is a cool,
very high sword and sorcery fantasy sounding word. It dates
back to eighteen ninety eight. There's a Swedish immigrant. His
(05:04):
name is Ulof Olmann, and he like late in that year.
He said that he had stumbled across a mysterious stone
while he was clearing trees and stumps from some farmlands
he had just acquired. Oloff himself came to the US
in eighteen seventy nine, so he had been here for
a while. This wasn't like he didn't just get off
(05:27):
of a ship and then go find a tree with
a stone in it. So he was just like an
enterprising farmer. And we know the story of how he
found the stone.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Oh yes, the tail goes that Oloff found this stone
near the crest of a small knoll, not that knoll,
but an actual knoll, and it was. When he found it,
he was laying face down, so you don't even really
understand what it is, right at least when you first
look at, oh, there's stone there. It was tangled up
(06:02):
in the root system of this tree that was there,
on the Nola poplar tree, and this is the way
this tail goes. You'd think, okay, it was just one day,
but experts now can't really agree on what day it
was actually found. When it was truly discovered, They put
it somewhere between August of eighteen ninety eight and the
(06:23):
eighth of November of that year, So that's a pretty
big chunk of time at some point at which it
was discovered. And you know, and it's really one of
those things. If you're hanging out somewhere near a tree,
maybe by your house, it doesn't matter where you live.
If you're if you've got a root system going on
in some trees, you dig a little bit, just a
(06:46):
tiny bit, or even not dig, just brush away some
leaves and stuff that's just been lying on the ground,
you might find some fairly big stones.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah. Yeah, it's not abnormal. It's not unusual to find
stones some one tree. Yeah, there we go we'll work
shop it. We'll work shop it. But but yeah, you're right.
According to the story, there's a reason that this stone
didn't just get you know, tossed aside or used to
(07:16):
build some rough structure on the farm. It's because Olaf's
son Edward, who was ten years old at the time,
noticed something weird. He could just make out. Of course,
this is covered in dirt, right, if this story is true,
he could just make out what appeared to be markings,
not just the patterns of time or erosion, but what
(07:42):
seemed to be purposeful markings on one side of the stone.
So they clean it off. That's the sound effect for
cleaning stuff off. Everybody knows that one. So they're on
the stone and they find these markings are an inscription.
It appears to be made by human beings, and it
(08:03):
appears that they have written in some sort of message
for posterity in some kind of language. But the farmers
don't recognize the alphabet, which will also be important later.
And their farm is in a rural area, like the
closest settlement is Kensington, Minnesota.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, and this word spread pretty quickly through Douglas County.
On New Year's Day of eighteen ninety nine, the mayor
of Kensington, Minnesota, a Swedish born gentleman by the name
of John P. Hedberg, maybe a distant relative of Mitch.
I don't know, it's possible. Well, John P. Wrote a
letter recounting this story to Savenska amer Kanska Postin, which
(08:49):
is a fancy way of saying Swedish American newspaper essentially,
and that was the name of this Swedish American newspaper
in Minneapolis. And Hebburg his correspondence and closed a penciled
sheet showing reproductions of the two hundred and nineteen characters
from the inscription they we're talking about in his letter.
(09:10):
In the body of the letter to Hebburg, he guessed
that the inscription might be in Ancient Greek, which was
a language that he couldn't read.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah right, yeah, But.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
He wasn't trying to put one over on this guy.
He was genuinely interested. From what you can tell from
his letter to the paper's editor and publishers, Hebburg was
really just trying to get a little help solving this mystery.
He thought maybe there would be some experts there that could,
you know, point him in the right direction. At the
very least, he wanted to know on the surface.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
What was going on on the surface of this strange
stone that they found.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
On the surface, scraped into it with some sort of
pointy object.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Right, you know, we're gonna get into it later. But
you write to any paper, doesn't matter how well they
are known throughout the land. You write to a publication
and you say, look at this thing I found. It's
really strange. What do you think it is? I mean,
you're letting you're letting that publication know that it exists,
(10:21):
and it could be it is a mystery, right, no
matter what, just yeah, planting that seed. Well.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Also, it's the mayor of a rural area, so this
is one of the strangest things to happen, probably during
this mayor's tenure. But also let's assume that the editors
and publishers get a lot of letters in the post.
You know, maybe there's a two headed cow report, maybe
(10:49):
the crops are failing or overly abundant. The reason the
publisher reads this letter is because he is a friend
of the mayor, the guy who publishes the paper.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, or know that time that that one big fella
through that little fella and the woodchipper. Remember when that happened,
that was a big story at the time.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Especially yet but when it happened in the eighteen hundreds,
remember they didn't have electrically powered wood chippers, so the
wood schipper was a guy. So yeah, so they they
spread this. And I appreciate your point about possible motivations there, Matt,
because of course, the art of the coin teaches us
(11:32):
that if you want to pull a good con, if
this guy's motivations were anything less than sincere, then you
can't show all your cards at once. Right, the mayor
is talking to a personal friend of his, so he
uh he, in the most objective way possible, just says, okay,
here we go. What do you think. I think it
(11:54):
might be ancient Greek, but I don't speak it because
you know, if you want to real people in you
let them feel like they are making the decisions you
control them making. Anyway, the stone is at least real.
It's not a the stone itself. Its existence is not
a hoax. The same way that you know, we went
through a spate of people claiming a few years ago
(12:17):
to have found Bigfoot's corpse and there's enovitab. Yeah, they
had something. They had something. One case was like a
gorilla suit in a cooler. But there is a real
stone here, and we have very great descriptions of it.
It's made of a hard gray type of sandstone called
(12:38):
gray whack W A c K. It's about the size
of like your typical tombstone, I mean a gravestone, not
the pizza, which isn't pad. And it's this irregular rectangle shape,
regular rectangular shape. It weighs about two hundred and two pounds.
It's thirty inches high, thirty thirty one inches high, sixteen
(13:01):
inches wide, about five and a half to six inches thick.
So it's a it's hefty. It's not something you casually
carry around, and it seems like it would be a
difficult thing to lose in the first place, right, But again,
our species loses cities, civilizations, entire eras of history. Who
were the sea people's.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Anyway, continue asking that question for the rest of the show.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Can see that exists. I think as long as we
can just keep saying sea people's. I don't know why.
That just strikes me as delightful. The sea people I
just think of I picture you know, underwater dwelling types
with gills and webbed feet.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I picture sea monkeys. I'm just gonna be honest. It
was hard for me not to say that. During the
Bronze Age collapse thing, I was pulling up images of
old school sea monkeys, which I think really some kind
of shrip.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
It's all sea persons for me. You know persons, I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Murperson, bird person, all the hits, all the good ones.
So everybody agrees this stone exists. It has something carved
upon it, right, it has something carved into the face
of the stone, and the if you look at pictures
of this, which are widely available online, you'll see that
the front face looks partially damaged. So as possible, there
(14:21):
was more to this original message. And now now we
get to the very strange part. We know what the
message says, sort of. We have a bunch of linguists
who have been looking at this since eighteen ninety nine
at least, and they agree kind of on this message.
But ola first he didn't. According to him, he initially
(14:47):
thought that this was some kind of Indian almanac by
when you've meant Native American almanac. But later people said, wait,
those look like rooms.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Was that a quotation sound or an engraving sound?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
That was okay, cool? Engraving sound is more.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Like a oh no, But you made a sound earlier
in the episode.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Was that a scrubbing sound you made?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
I was, I was clarifying our sonic terms here.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, it was runes runs you I don't know on
this show. We've encountered runes many a time. I think
most commonly when dealing with research on the Nazi Party.
I think, at least for me, that's when type of
runes we've been encountering quite frequently.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Well, the notion that they have power, right, isn't that right?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Part of this right? The words have power in quite
a literal way. Yeah, runs are used in various magical
systems or traditional beliefs. They have also been kind of
what's the word appropriated by political movements or by metal band. Yeah,
(16:01):
and maybe they would say that's not appropriation, but in
the case of the Nazi Party, it's definitely appropriation.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well just just from a form factor, from like if
you're thinking about fonts or something, the rooms such as
these do there is something about them that is striking almost,
I don't know, almost in the way. The hieroglyphics have
the same kind of feel, where it feels like there's
more inside whatever's written or inscribed than just letters. It
(16:33):
feels that way.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
It reminds me of the same with a lot of
Asian characters, you know, where there feels like there's an
imbued meaning within the system. I mean, it's much more.
There's more to it than just a straightforward a shape
or a letter. You know, it feels like it's got
you can in the way that like certain Japanese characters
can tell a story, you know, with some brushstrokes, you know,
(16:56):
or there's a lot more contained within that one character
than with just a letter that would then be used
to spell out a word.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Right, Yeah, Runes are crazy. I watched I've been rewatching.
I've been watching like two Halloween movies, one to two
Halloween movies a day in October, and I stumbled upon
a film that I'd never heard of called Spell, which
is about a guy with OCD whose spouse passes away.
None of this is a spoiler, and so he just
(17:24):
sort of impulsively goes to Iceland, and he gets really
wrapped up in Icelandic folklore and runes, and I fell into.
I fell into the rabbit hole of Icelandic traditional beliefs,
and I spent I swear I spent like two hours
this past weekend wondering how we can make it a
(17:46):
stuff they don't want you to know episode until I said,
I'm just gonna have to I'm just gonna have to
be content to name drop that thing because there's not
a conspiracy.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
First place I ever remember hearing about runes was in
the The Hobbet movie where one of the gnomes is, like,
those are runstones, you know, that's the first and like,
you know, because they do have power. They're also in
a lot of obviously like RPG type games. They're in
Legend of Zelda. They are a way you can power
up a sword by adding a run stone to it
(18:18):
that gives it a special property or whatever. Outside the
scope of today's discussion, but still, the point is that
language can be imbued with meaning and power in the
right hands, at least in theory.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I really hope some of you also teleported on Ruins
and Ultimate Online the way I did, because that was
one of my favorite things. So let's just talk about
these ruins for a little bit. Runs in general it's
an ancient North European writing system, right. It's probably first
developed in the second century CE, and most likely under
Roman influence. They're also taught in several places throughout the world,
(18:55):
specifically in Scandinavian schools. School children in the nineteenth century
were learning what runes were, at least in a general sense,
in early education. In that way, more as a history lesson,
I think. I mean, that's my understanding. It would be
more of a let's learn about our history, our past.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
No, it's a skull omance thing. They're teaching those kids' spells,
teaching occult power over the elements, out to find fortune
and love and lay enemies to waste. No, you're right, though,
runs are a real thing. They're very very popular in fiction.
But they are very much a real thing, and they
(19:35):
were taught in various parts of Scandinavia to school children
in the eighteen hundreds. At least we know that for sure.
So here is the translation. This is again, this is
a generally accepted translation. There are going to be people
who go back and forth about the specifics here, but
(19:56):
it's like a it's a confession. Eh, we don't need
to we don't need a prologue. Here it is. We
are eight Goths and twenty two Norwegians on an exploration
valley from Vinland through the west. We had camp by
a lake with two scaries at small rocky islands. One
day's journey north from this stone. We were out and fished.
One day after we came home, we found ten of
(20:18):
our men red with blood and dead AVM standing probably
for ave Virgo Maria or Hail Virgin Mary, save us
from evil. We have ten of our party by the
sea to look after our ships. Fourteen days journey from
this island, year thirteen sixty two.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Whoa thirteen sixty two. These ruins are describing a couple
of different journeys that were taking, but one specific exploration journey.
I like how they put that from Vinland through the west. Hmmm,
we're gonna spendland.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Is that the same as Finland?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
We're gonna spend some time discussing what that may or
may I mean. I'm sure where is Vinland, you say,
But yeah, really interesting stuff like giving almost in uh
sunken treasure or in a hidden treasure map kind of
vibe like we're this where this distance away from this
(21:20):
stone from where we were. We're also this other distance,
in this other direction away from this stone for this
other thing. Fascinating that this thing, this message would end
up etched in stone in this place. Hmm, Well why
is it there? How did it get there? What does
it mean? We'll tell you, well, at least as much
(21:41):
as we know afterward from our sponsor.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
And we're back talking about potentially magical artifacts found in Minnesota. Uh,
not too too, too terribly far from Minneapolis, for we
know a magical creature once twelve Prince the Purple one,
but unrelated to any Goths or Norwegians that I know of.
But the Minneapolis Journal actually scooped the Swedish paper that
(22:15):
we discussed, the Swedish language paper that we discussed earlier
on that translation referencing said Goths and Norwegians eight and
twenty two in number, and it was kind of a thing.
The stone itself was put on display in a bank,
although this account we found on the internet incorrectly refers
(22:39):
to the bank as a drug store. And it's super
important to note that Omen never actually was looking to
get paid for his discovery. The Minnesota Historical Society actually
has a bill of sale showing that Omends sold the
stone to them for ten American dollars in nineteen and eleven,
(23:00):
which would be around three hundred bucks in twenty twenty,
closer to two hundred and sixty dollars. Wow, So what's
the deal? Where do the facts and the fiction meet?
And of which is there more? This is the question
I think we have for today.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
The first thing I would put forward is, who's to
say it wasn't a combination bank and drug store. I mean,
everybody's seen those.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Money, I mean drug You know, you certainly will see
banks in grocery stores and drugs and pharmacies in grocery stores,
though I cannot say I have ever met seen a
bank in a freestanding drug store.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
But or maybe we just need to pop up, you know,
banking institutions are stressful for a lot of people. Maybe
we need to pop up pharmacy right after you sign
thirty years of your life away and alone. I think
I think there's probably a law against that for good reason.
But it's not a bad idea. There's a lot of
(24:00):
money to be made.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
And then you can go next door to the combination
pizza Hut Taco Bell and get a little snack.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Seriously, yes, absolutely, But also, you guys are familiar with
the concept of minute clinics, right where the drug store
essentially will have a physician's.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Assistant care type situation.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Right, But in a drug store, why aren't there minute
clinics with psychiatrists in them, having a crusist or that
has a psychiatrist installed just waiting for you come come
to me. Yeah, I will prescribe.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
The probably because I would say probably because it's tougher
to help heal a wounded mind than it is to
help bandage up a broken arm.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I don't I don't mean. I don't mean to actually
do good for any patient. I just meant to push
more pills.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I got it. Oh okay, yeah, let the uh let
the oxy conton tycoons know right, there's a revenue stream
just like oil. Come. But he's figured out plastic. I
hope those words don't come back to haunt us. There
is a point though, that they don't want to lose.
We'll get too far from the translation, and that is
that the Goths are Swedes. Goth is a word for Swede.
(25:12):
They're not the they're not the Motley Crew from letter
Kenny or South Park.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
They're not cure fans, you know, with emo haircuts and
potential like chain mail belts or something like that black
fingernail polish.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
They pay have had chain mail, that's.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
True, likely on more than their belts, though, I would
I would imagine so unless it was something of religious
or spiritual cultural significance.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, this is an excellent question about fact versus fiction,
because if the Kensington Rumstone is what it's believers say
it is, and if the message on it is true
and is from thirteen sixty two, then it's hugely important
for our understanding of North American history, forget that of
(26:05):
world history. This would be a big deal because how
would how how would this group of Swedish people and
Norwegian people vikings working together? How would they how would
they reach the Midwest from Vinland? Right? Even though they
say they did it a great personal cost, they paid
(26:27):
them blood for this trip, it's still it's it's still
a long journey. Maybe we maybe we should pause for
just a second to talk about Venland. We've been throwing
this around. You've you've probably heard of Greenland, You've probably
heard of Iceland, and maybe the nifty little story behind
their names. Vinland is kind of in that same headspace.
(26:52):
It's an area of North America that was explored by
Norse vikings. Leif Erickson landed there around one thousand CE,
So you know, you don't have to be a math
doctor to know that's way before Columbus.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I mean, that's it's incredible to have that inscribed, you know,
allegedly in the thirteen hundreds. So I guess what I'm
trying to wrap my head around. I was reading this
story from the is It What is It? The Minnesota Post,
and they're discussing Vinland and the route through the west
from Vinland and what where that would be from where
(27:30):
it would actually be located. And I'm genuinely a little
bit confused because it seems as though it's a bit
unknown where Vinland is. Ben can do we have maybe
I just don't have it in my research, like actually
where it is located? So in current US.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, so right now, right now, the popular consensus is
that what we what was described as Vinland by Leif
Ericsson and co. Is probably an area that includes Newfoundland
and the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and maybe goes as
(28:10):
far as New Brunswick. So really it's it's Canadian, okay, okay,
but but it is. It is a wide range and
it is accepted as fact that these people arrived there
in one thousand CE. We just don't know what happened
in the thirteen hundreds.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Well, and if you definitely want to learn that's an
historically accurate account of what Vinland was. There is an
anime manga series called Vinland Saga, so that would be
the place to go. I'm kidding, but it is interesting
when a country like Japan, you know, portrays a culture
like the Viking type situation. It's very I don't know,
(28:51):
I'm intrigued by this because it does appear to be
like Viking ships and swords and that kind of high
jinks looks pretty interesting. But so what would what land
mass would we attribute it to, like if does it
still exist or find anything about? Oh, it's just North America,
just part of it, okay.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Interesting, it would be like the eastern upper upper eastern
coast of the North American continent. But from what we
know in the earliest accounts of Viinland, it was described
as it was first written about in ten seventy five,
and it was described as these remote islands. So imagine
(29:34):
you get close, you find some islands, and you think
we've gone really far, we should turn around. They didn't really,
from what we understand, they did not know the enormity
of the land mass that they were very very close to.
That makes sense, So Vinlands at this point is we
(29:56):
should also say it's the idea of these early Viking
floors of one thousand CE. It's a very popular idea.
It's in a lot of conversation. It's in the zeitgeist
in the eighteen nineties in Europe and in the US,
so someone would probably know someone in Minnesota would have
(30:18):
heard this story, especially given the massive Swedish population, they
would have been familiar with this, and that's why it
got so much interest from the media. There was a
flurry of investigations. We're talking scholars and linguists. They dive
into this description and they're fighting back and forth like
what kind of runic system is this? How old is it?
(30:40):
That's the big question, right, And then historians and scientists
are doing the same kind of thing that we were
just doing, where they're essentially pulling up a map and
they're going, okay, fictional boat, how does it get to Minnesota.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Well, dude, there's it's it's fascinating. If you just read
that translation, doesn't it call the place where the tablet
ends up an island and not just a hill?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Right?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
So that, right that alone makes the mind start wondering, well, wait,
what was this flooded? And unless you know the historical
record of the area you have extremely accurate information on that,
your mind may think, well, perhaps it was a lot
of a lot of this was flooded at some point,
even if it was only on a temporary basis, to
(31:35):
where this this whole area could be traversed by ship
or by boat rather than on on foot on land.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, we know the
geography can change, right, especially over over time. That's the thing.
If you're if you're hearing about this, and you're not
a scholar of ancient languages that are somewhat of scure,
and if you're not a forensic expert or a professional historian,
(32:07):
then this sounds like it's at the very least, it
sounds like it's an interesting thing, and it sounds very possible.
The stone itself ended up getting sent to some professionals
especially one professor George O. Kerm, who was a philologist
at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. And so so he
(32:32):
looks at it. He looks at this draft people are
figuring out about based on what we know about the inscription.
And when he looks at this first draft, he is
he's got a little spark of hope, right, are we
about to learn more about hidden history? But then he
inspected the language on the stone itself. You know, when
(32:55):
he when he did a firsthand investigation, he can't really
really puzzled, and it led him and many others to ask,
what the heck is going on? What is the provenance
of this stone? Will answer the question definitively afterward from
our sponsor.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Okay, I gotta say it. It's fake.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
What no, Yeah, just like that, Just like that, it
gets crazy.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
It's fake.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
It's well, it gets a little crazier than that. But
the stone itself is ninety eight percent ninety eight point
ninety nine percent a hoax. At least it might be
an historical hoax like the Shroud of Turin or something spoilers,
but but this has proven pretty definitively they're big problems
(33:56):
with the stories. There's not just problems with the uh,
the story of the farmer finding it. There's a problem
with the story that's on the stone map.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Problems right like problems and.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
The farmer selling it for ten bucks, even if it
was two hundred and sixty bucks. Come on, this is the
thing's incredible ten bucks.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah. Look for the Vikings ships to have made a
fourteen day journey from Alexandria to where they ended up.
The only possible route they could have taken was from
Hudson Bay, which is eight hundred miles as the crow
flies longer if you take a more winding path like
a river, and having to pick up the boat and
put it back down, which is a word I learned
(34:41):
today called portage, and a particularly difficult distance to manage
in fourteen days in the way that it was described
here on the stone, the route through the west from Vinland,
that whole situation, whose location in thirteen sixty too would
have been unknown. That's a thing we've all kind of
(35:03):
struggled with us. We were trying to pick this thing apart,
and no other record of this expedition has been found
literally anywhere. So why would explore us, who had just
suffered such a massacre stop to carve in these beautifully
ornate and organized characters this stone inscription.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I would you know, just a counter a little bit
to that last part of there. I mean, if maybe
the belief is that all is lost, you want to
warn anyone else who's going to be coming this way
about something. Maybe you don't have enough information. So as
one of the men is dying, he's carving furiously trying
(35:44):
to get a message into this stone before he leaves,
or before his party leaves, or and he perishes. Just
putting it out there. This feels very video game like
to me or movie like, but just as a possible
reason to make them look like that.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Maybe a testament to the lives lost, uh, maybe some
way to make a mark before they themselves disappeared. Would
say that we do need to point out there were
no bodies found in the vicinity of the stone that
we know of.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And it's also it's a good question, we don't know
why this would happen in a vacuum, why there would
be no other uh, no other secondary source. If it's
a true story, then perhaps the grizzly fact of the
matter is that uh, the author, along with the their
cohort all died. Maybe no one made it back to
(36:40):
tell the tale of their you know, their their woefully
unfortunate trip. But okay, so that's a that's a huge
problem the math. These folks were mavericks. If they were
able to, if they were able to uh sail to
this various place in a way that would have required
(37:03):
them to at some point pick up their boats, physically
carry them across the ground, put them in another water source,
and continue on their merry way. That's a lot. But
there's another problem with the story, and I hate to
say it's a it's a problem with the farmer. It's
very very strange. I'm not calling them a liar, just
(37:25):
say it's very strange that Oloff would not have recognized
something familiar about rooms. Because remember, he grew up in
Sweden during a time when Scandinavian children were often taught
about rooms. He was not a I guess we wouldn't
call him a highly educated man, but that doesn't make
him unintelligent. He was literate. He had a small library
(37:48):
at his house, and some of those books had you
guessed it runs in.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Them, Okay, so then we have to wonder if the
inscription itself the message, if it was genuine. Hmm, well,
if someone were to inscribe something in uh, what did
we call it?
Speaker 3 (38:10):
That?
Speaker 2 (38:10):
That's a fun word that we just gray gray whack.
If someone were to you know, inscribe this thing in
grey whack, they would have to at least have an
understanding of what these ruins meant, how to put them
together to form, you know, sentences with meaning. And you know,
(38:32):
if the farmer does have these books, he did grow
up in a place where he learned at least parts
of this language. I don't know if he had the
nerve or the wherewithal to pull up a prank or
even a quick way to make ten bucks.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
The worst way to make ten dollars.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Ever, that's a lot of work to put in.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Like how long does it take the look, I've never
I imagine it would take a long time to carve
something into stone, right, So if you average out this
is maybe us being cheap skates. But's if you average
out that ten dollars across however many hours it would
(39:17):
have taken to make this, it's not a great gig,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
You know, it's two hundred and sixty, Like if you
were being commissioned to build a piece of art in
stone for two hundred and sixty dollars, that feels that
feels cheap to me for an ornate piece of stone.
But I don't know.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Hey, it's also kind of an odd prank, right, Like,
I mean, obviously we're talking about it. Obviously it got
some attention. You know, it was put up in the
drug store slash bank whatever, whichever one it was, combination
drug store bank. But what do you think the end
game was just to make a fuss, just to get
people excited or riled up.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
That's a good question. And there have been some people
who guessed that this conspiracy, and it is a conspiracy
if it's a hoax. There have been some people who
guessed that it had more than one involved, more than
one person, that one of Oman's friends pastor former pastor
named Zvin vogel Blod. Vogel Blod may have helped him
(40:23):
out because Sven had a knowledge of ruins. And according
to a couple sources, again this is touchy. This is like,
this is like the Syrian sources writing about the assassins.
You know, there are sources who say that both of
these guys, Spinn and Olaf, didn't like academics, they didn't
like the Ivory Tower. They resented them for some reason.
(40:47):
So maybe this is like a little a little fillip
toward them, or you know, a bite of the thumb.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Just a quick philip. Yeah, that's the word for it,
you know, I know, I just we never heard anyone
in like twenty in the whatever this era is referred
to flipping someone a quick philip.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
I love it, I love it. You know, it's funny.
We mentioned at the top of the show how this
sort of reminded me of the Georgia guidestones. I think
one misconception about the Georgia guidestones is that they're a hoax,
is that they're meant to be interpreted as some sort
of ancient artifact, like some sort of Stonehenge type situation.
But you know, it's certainly something that the mind might
(41:34):
jump to when just seeing it cold, because they do
appear to be these ancient kind of carved, you know,
granite slabs that very much resemble a stone hinge. But
obviously we know at the very least the mystery behind
that is what the identity actually was of the man
who paid to have them erected and designed. But we
know that a man did have them erected design with
(41:54):
the full cooperation of the city and the you you know,
bought the plot of land and all that stuff. So
that's different, but still very interesting in that they are both.
You know, the guidestones are sort of meant to resemble
something that could be taken as ancient, but it serves
a much more modern purpose. I understand the meaning and
(42:17):
the point behind the guidestones. I don't understand the meaning
and the point behind this.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
If it were a hoax, right right, right, Yeah, So
that's I mean, that's a key question because we don't
have definitive proof that well off omen made these things
as a jolly prank. In fact, he never admitted a hoax,
(42:42):
even unto his deathbed. Again, as we said, he wasn't.
He clearly was not out to become wealthy from this,
and he was adamant he stuck to his story. He
was steadfast about his version of events until his death,
and he stuck by the story even when the the
academics that he reputedly resented came back with problems with
(43:05):
the inscription itself. They first analyze it in eighteen ninety nine,
right same year it gets reported, and a lot of
these experts dismiss it as fake. Back then, they say
there are too many discrepancies in the form and the vocabulary.
Because they're like the Indiana Jones top men. They get
(43:27):
together and they say, okay, look, we are experts in
a very specific field. The known language is of fourteenth
century Scandinavia, and we checked with each other, and none
of us think this is legit. They were saying that
back in eighteen ninety nine, early nineteen hundreds. Most experts
since then have agreed. But even if you say, even
(43:54):
if you say, well, maybe this person was just writing
in a weird way. Around half of their friends were dead.
It was a very trying time. They were very stressed out.
Even if we accept that, we have to ask ourselves
about the age of these things, the condition of the rock.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, so they're you know, they're picked up in eighteen
eighty nine, right, and if you're talking about what is
that five hundred years that they would have been laying there,
or yeah, more than five hundred years that they had
been laying there, you'd think that the stone inscriptions would
(44:37):
have just been worn to nothingness, or at least worn
heavily after all that time of just the elements and
laying there being you know, scraped. I know it doesn't
sound like much, but being scraped by roots and by dirt,
and as water runs underneath it every time it rains,
and all these other things. The weird thing is, though,
(44:57):
to me, is if it's laying on its face and
it isn't directly being hit by rain and debris all
that time, I don't know, I feel like it would
degrade less so than if it was facing up. But
but maybe that's just my ignorance as to how things
(45:18):
actually get weathered and what five hundred years can do
to something. But you know, I know that's certainly in
question here. Why were the rooms still so intact and
seemingly pristine?
Speaker 3 (45:31):
I see you're saying, if it was like mounted like
a tombstone upright, then it would be spared more like
then if it were like you know, mounted on the
ground facing up, then probably that amount of time the
ruins would have been completely wiped away.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
You know, Well, I guess what I'm saying is because
of how it was found, correct, me if I'm wrong, Ben,
But I think it was found face down. Yeah, you
don't see the ruins. You see just the rest of
the greywack stone. You pick it up, and then you
see the.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
Rooms that certainly would have preserved it. I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
That's my thought, But I know that experts at the
time were just saying, I hear you know, I hear
what you're saying, Matt. This is what the experts would
have said. Hear what you're saying, Matt. But we're talking
about five hundred years.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Well, also over yeah, over five hundred years, would root
systems of other trees not have broken gulfed it? Yeah,
and golfed it, broke in more of the stone into
bits or you know, eroded. At time, weares on things,
on all the works of man. So maybe we can say,
(46:37):
what about the most popular poplar tree in town in
eighteen ninety eight, how old was the tree? They did
an interesting thing, not super scientific. The tree that held
the stone was destroyed by nineteen ten, but people went
back to the site. They looked around the area, They
saw other poplar trees, like a nearby hopes of poplar trees,
(47:01):
and they had local saying Okay, these poplars are around
the same size, they're around the same age. And then
the experts knocked down some of those trees and through
the magic of dendo chronology, they figured out that those
trees were probably between thirty to forty years old. So
the age of that, if that gives us information about
(47:23):
the age of the tree where the stone was supposedly found,
then we know that that root system had engulfed it
within thirty to forty years. Again, if this is true,
because another person who was at the excavation site later,
(47:43):
who visited it, a county school superintendent named Cleve Van Dyke, said,
hold on, those trees are only ten or twelve years old.
But you know he said that in a Minnesota accent.
I imagine, and I.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Were just tempted. Haven't attempted a Nordic accent yet or
a Scandinavian ben you promised us a buick off mic.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
What we were talking. We were sorry.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
I don't mean to throw you under the prse.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
There we go worth it.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
But just I hear you about the trees like that,
that makes a whole lot of sense as to why
it would have ended up where it was. If those
trees were only that old, right, Just to jump back
quickly to the inscription and the age possibly of that
there was there's an analysis in two thousand and three
(48:36):
done on the actual inscriptions the ruins that are you know,
inscribed into the rock. And there's a person Scott F. Walter,
who conducted this analysis, and you know, according to him
in his study, they were around two hundred years old,
So that would put them in the eighteen hundreds. We're
(48:57):
talking about eighteen ninety eight, eighteen ninety nine when they're
you know, first discovered and studied. It's an interesting thing
because to me, I know that two hundred years isn't
come on. That's not an exact number of years that
these inscriptions have been on there. But that gives you
a pretty at least a good idea of how old
(49:20):
they were, rather than seven hundred years, six hundred years,
five hundred years. But it is interesting to think that
at least in one analysis it put the range of
only around two hundred years rather than you know, the
five hundred six hundred year range.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Right. And even that even that measure is controversial, right,
You'll find a lot of people who reject that. I
just have to say, with this cast of characters, who's
the guy who made Spinal Tap Best in Show?
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Christopher Guest Christopher Guests.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yeah, feels like Kensington Runestones would be a great Christopher
Guest film.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Oh, that's a good idea, would be.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
There's a there's a really great, very small part in
Waiting for Guffman where David Cross plays like a historian
or something and he's talking about you know, he's like
a UFO enthusiast, and he said, in this circle it's
always two degrees colder with a five chance of rain,
(50:24):
like he's out in the field. That's the only time
you hear from David Cross in that movie. But I
love that part, such.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
A wonder shot. A bunch of other stuff, and then
it just ended up getting cut on the on the
cutting room floor because.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
They play, they have a good time with those movies.
It's all, you know, mostly improv I think, with like
a skeletal outline. So I wouldn't doubt that there's probably
some good outtake somewhere out there in the world.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Well, Chris, if you if you're listening to the show,
let us know when we can expect your feature film
on the Kensington runestone and whether or not it is
a hoax. This there's one thing that I held back
on that I think I think is substantive and should
(51:10):
be mentioned. There are a lot of people in the
area today, especially who say they believe in the veracity
of the roomstone. Now is that a measure of sincere
belief or is that sort of like a regional pride thing? Right?
Like how I was going to say, like how Atlanta
(51:31):
still supports the Falcons, But I don't.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Think like Blaine, Missouri and their stools. You know, that
was another Christopher Guest reference.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
I'm just saying, let's give it, let's give them both
in But there was one great comparison I read from
a linguistics expert about this. I'm just going to read
this line to you, guys, just the one line. Remember
when Neil Armstrong landed on the moon in nineteen sixty
nine and said, LMAO, this is tight. That's that language
(52:03):
is off by about fifty years, says linguist Jackson Crawford.
And his argument is that the language of the Kensington
rumstone is off by about six hundred years. He's an
old Norse specialist with a PhD. So, in his professional opinion,
this was written far after it claimed to be written.
(52:25):
As a matter of fact, it may have been written
around the late eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Hmmm, strange and suspect. It really just brings you back
to the question why would someone do this? And if
it was the farmer, well, then why would he? I mean,
why didn't he sell it for more money? Why didn't
it become a tourist attraction of some sort. We've seen
(52:50):
on this show several times throughout the years where in
places across the United States, a hoax of some kind
will begin and it takes on a life of its own,
and even if it has proven to be a hoax,
it becomes a museum or a place where you can
go and see it, and you know, the person who
found it or the family can prosper from it, even
(53:11):
if it is considered a hoax by everybody. I mean,
it's it's something that can happen, and it didn't seem
to happen that way for all off. It's just it's
very weird, and you didn't come forward to say, oh, yeah,
this was a hoax. Later on in life, nobody else
did either, So maybe Olof did discover something that someone
(53:33):
else hoaxed, which is a possibility that we can't completely
throw away. But it's just I don't know, none of
it feels right, or maybe maybe it just doesn't amount
to much. I guess that's why there's such a problem
with it when I'm thinking about it. However, you can
go and see it right now. It still exists, and
(53:55):
it's in a museum.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
In the Runstone Museum right.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Oh, yes, the ruins Stone Museum that you can visit now,
though maybe you don't want to go in person, maybe
you can do it virtually. But if you were going
to go in person, it's at two oh six Broadway, Alexandria, Minnesota,
five six, three oh eight. And you know, there's a
phone number you can call and you can see all
this stuff and learn more about the runestone itself, at
(54:20):
least according to the museum at Runstone Museum dot Org.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
And while you're there, why not make a day of it.
The Runestone Museum is just across the way. It's walking
distance from the Legacy of the Lakes Museum. And I
kid you, not a gigantic Viking statue.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
Nice? Well, then the Runestone, by the way, at the
museum is displayed beautifully. It looks incredible on that website.
You can see lots of pictures of it. There's some
videos in there, there's I think a few ships like
Scandinavian ships, and there's a whole scan in in heritage
exhibit there. That's I mean, I would say it's probably
(55:03):
gonna be worth your time. I'd love to go.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Yeah, I agreed. I would also love to check this out.
You can see the story of this, you can get
a map of the county there. You can also visit
the Kensington Runestone Park, which is a short drive from
the museum, and you can learn more at the Kensington
Heritage Society. We want to say again there are people
(55:28):
like there are people who believe that this is an honest,
the gosh nis Viking relic, and then there are other
people to be cannedid the majority of academics who believe
that it is in some way an historical hoax. But
don't let that ruin a good trip to the museum,
you know what I mean. I that's one of the
(55:52):
only things I miss is I miss museums. You know,
miss handshakes. Those are always those have always been weird yeah,
but museums are great.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
Yeah, museums were nice in zoos.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
Yeah. Well yeah, the Atlanta Zoo is back up and running.
It's it's got COVID safe precautions in place with they
only let a certain number of people in and I
went and it wasn't too bad, and that's a good zoo.
I think the Atlanta Zoo is a good zoo because
it's a lot of the animals that are in there
wouldn't survive in the wild, which maybe some people take
issue with that version of events. I understand that, but
(56:28):
it does it. It's okay with me.
Speaker 1 (56:30):
Yeah. And just because the Kensington Roomstone is likely a hoax,
it doesn't mean that Viking relics other Viking relics aren't real.
It doesn't mean that there are not more strange tales
of a free Columbus era exploration from Europeans. You'll you'll
(56:52):
see all kinds of arguments. There's there's one that's pretty
interesting about Greek contact in the fourth century BCE, because
a guy named J. Richard Stepfi looked at the construction
of a Greek ship from the fourth century and found
they used a mixture of agave leaves and pitch where
(57:15):
does a gave grow? Interesting? Right, it's not proof, but
it's it's not fire, but it's smoke. You can also
learn more about theories about the priory of Scion and
things like that which are of varying lausibility, and the
legend of Saint Brendan, the Irish Monk. The list goes on.
(57:39):
But I think if we are doing due diligence and
admitting when something seems like a hoax, even though the
story about it would be cool, I think what we're
doing our due diligence there, we have to be careful
to remember that this does not in thesess, This does
not automatically mean every other controversial historical relic is I'm how.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
A hoax, oh, one hundred percent. And I think it's
important that we keep that kind of thing in the
backs of our minds whenever we're exploring something like this,
Like even if everybody says it's a hoax, let's at
least think about it on the base context of what
everybody else is working with before passing judgment. I think
that's important. And to that end, we very much want
(58:22):
to know what you think about the Kensington runestone, and
you know, any other thing that we just mentioned a
few moments ago, but the Kensington Runestone in particular. Have
you been, have you seen it? Have you heard any
tales about it? I'd love to know your experience at
the museum again, just so I can live through through
your experience as I miss museums along with Ben and
(58:44):
Noel and Paul. But yeah, you know what other kind
of stuff about, you know, pre contact, pre Columbus contact
from Europeans here in the Americas. What do you think
about all of that stuff? You can contact us. We're
all over social media on Twitter and Facebook, we are
conspiracy stuff. On Instagram, we are conspiracy stuff. Show that's right.
Speaker 3 (59:08):
If you want to get a hold of us in
a different way, you can join our Facebook group, which
is called Here's where It gets crazy easy as pie
to get in. Just a name and name, any name
will do. An interesting name, a name from conspiracy history,
but preferably a name of myself or matter Ben or
Mission Control or Doc Holliday and you're in. Or just
(59:28):
make Ben laugh.
Speaker 1 (59:29):
Yes, yes, someone had a great pun and I was
laughing so hard that I just approved you. And I'm
sorry I should have saved it for the air. But yes, yes,
let us know. We try to be easy to find.
If you don't sip the social needs. If going online
(59:49):
is not your bag of badgers, that we have a
different ruinstone for you to hit up to contact us.
Check out the series of numerical hieroglyphs on your phone,
your telephonic device, and uh cast a spell, you know,
cast one eight three three see it with us st
(01:00:11):
d w y t k, and you will speak directly
into a void that may speak back.
Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
That's right, real poor on one eight three three std
w y t k real poor everyone.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Uh well, in my head, baby, that's all good. That's all.
Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
There's there's three people listening that got that, And I
hope you appreciate it as much as I do.
Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yeah, because I think we're I think we're lost. Man,
we're trying to Yes, that's all good.
Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
Guys, Just gather as much blood moss and man man
drake roote. I think if you just gather a bunch
of that, you need those reagents.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
What was that one from the Skyrim man the dragon yell?
Those were rune based, weren't they? Yeah, fos the one
fa hey, And if you don't want to do any
of that, you can send us a good old Fustora.
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff they don't
(01:01:28):
want you to know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
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or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Fellow conspiracy realist. We want to talk about runs with
you today, Not the elder Scroll runs, not the elden
Ring runs, but the Kensington runs.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
This is cool stuff. I'm remembering this episode as I
take a look at some of the information here, and
this is one of those things find an artifact that
doesn't It appears to be out of place, right, there
shouldn't be this type of writing in this place from
this time.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Strange.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
But for today's episode, we're coming to Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, classic Viking territory. Right. This is the
idea that what modern historians call the Vikings made it
way past Newfoundland into the interior of what we call
the United States. And they did it way back in
the thirteen hundreds, and they left absolutely no trace except
(01:09):
for a mysterious slab of stone.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you
are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff
they don't want you to know. As we've explored in
previous episodes, our species knows roughly when and how human
(02:02):
beings first reached the continent we know of as North America,
but we still continue to search for more concrete that's
going to be such a horrible pun later answers about
who these people were. And as most of our fellow
conspiracy realists know, many of the things children are taught
about in North American history later turned out to be
(02:23):
either misleading or holy false. The best example of this
is probably the tale of Christopher Columbus or Crystal baal Cologne.
Without dating ourselves, guys, do you remember being taught about
Christopher Columbus in grade school, elementary, middle etc.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Any sale Ocean Blue in fourteen ninety two, oh forever? Yeah,
that's what I remember.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Into our psychees, Yeah that's what I remember. But yeah,
the the Nina, the Pinta, the Santa Maria, all that stuff,
And I remember how exciting it was to say that
quickly right outside of that, you know, as far as
the actual explorations and you know who was behind them.
I vaguely remember the details.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
But yeah, yeah, it's strange because a lot of kids,
especially in the West, in the US and Canada, were
taught a somewhat simplified version of history right of European
transatlantic exploration towards this continent and towards South America as well.
(03:32):
But obviously, current historical research indicates Columbus was far from
the first European to reach what we call North America. Right,
But if this explorer was not the first, then who was.
According to one group of researchers, the answer may be
found in a slab of rock located, of all places
(03:55):
in modern day Douglas County, wait for it, Minnesota. That's
called the Kensington Runestone. Nolie pointed out, this reminded you
a bit of the Georgia guidestones, and I definitely see
the similarities. But first off, Minnesota, it's inland. It's far
(04:16):
far away from where a ship would be at that time, right, well, it.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Is, but it does offer us a really good opportunity
because it's in Minnesota and it involves Nordic or Scandinavian ruins.
I think we get to do both a Minnesota and
a Scandinavian accent.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
It is. It is pretty much between Minneapolis and Fargo.
I mean it's like almost in between there at closer
to Fargo.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So here are the facts. What are we talking about.
I know some of us listening, maybe our heads exploded
when they said, all right, well, finally they're going to
give us the truth about the runestone. Which is a cool,
very high sword and sorcery fantasy sounding word. It dates
back to eighteen ninety eight. There's a Swedish immigrant. His
(05:04):
name is Ulof Olmann, and he like late in that year.
He said that he had stumbled across a mysterious stone
while he was clearing trees and stumps from some farmlands
he had just acquired. Oloff himself came to the US
in eighteen seventy nine, so he had been here for
a while. This wasn't like he didn't just get off
(05:27):
of a ship and then go find a tree with
a stone in it. So he was just like an
enterprising farmer. And we know the story of how he
found the stone.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Oh yes, the tail goes that Oloff found this stone
near the crest of a small knoll, not that knoll,
but an actual knoll, and it was. When he found it,
he was laying face down, so you don't even really
understand what it is, right at least when you first
look at, oh, there's stone there. It was tangled up
(06:02):
in the root system of this tree that was there,
on the Nola poplar tree, and this is the way
this tail goes. You'd think, okay, it was just one day,
but experts now can't really agree on what day it
was actually found. When it was truly discovered, They put
it somewhere between August of eighteen ninety eight and the
(06:23):
eighth of November of that year, So that's a pretty
big chunk of time at some point at which it
was discovered. And you know, and it's really one of
those things. If you're hanging out somewhere near a tree,
maybe by your house, it doesn't matter where you live.
If you're if you've got a root system going on
in some trees, you dig a little bit, just a
(06:46):
tiny bit, or even not dig, just brush away some
leaves and stuff that's just been lying on the ground,
you might find some fairly big stones.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah. Yeah, it's not abnormal. It's not unusual to find
stones some one tree. Yeah, there we go we'll work
shop it. We'll work shop it. But but yeah, you're right.
According to the story, there's a reason that this stone
didn't just get you know, tossed aside or used to
(07:16):
build some rough structure on the farm. It's because Olaf's
son Edward, who was ten years old at the time,
noticed something weird. He could just make out. Of course,
this is covered in dirt, right, if this story is true,
he could just make out what appeared to be markings,
not just the patterns of time or erosion, but what
(07:42):
seemed to be purposeful markings on one side of the stone.
So they clean it off. That's the sound effect for
cleaning stuff off. Everybody knows that one. So they're on
the stone and they find these markings are an inscription.
It appears to be made by human beings, and it
(08:03):
appears that they have written in some sort of message
for posterity in some kind of language. But the farmers
don't recognize the alphabet, which will also be important later.
And their farm is in a rural area, like the
closest settlement is Kensington, Minnesota.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, and this word spread pretty quickly through Douglas County.
On New Year's Day of eighteen ninety nine, the mayor
of Kensington, Minnesota, a Swedish born gentleman by the name
of John P. Hedberg, maybe a distant relative of Mitch.
I don't know, it's possible. Well, John P. Wrote a
letter recounting this story to Savenska amer Kanska Postin, which
(08:49):
is a fancy way of saying Swedish American newspaper essentially,
and that was the name of this Swedish American newspaper
in Minneapolis. And Hebburg his correspondence and closed a penciled
sheet showing reproductions of the two hundred and nineteen characters
from the inscription they we're talking about in his letter.
(09:10):
In the body of the letter to Hebburg, he guessed
that the inscription might be in Ancient Greek, which was
a language that he couldn't read.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah right, yeah, But.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
He wasn't trying to put one over on this guy.
He was genuinely interested. From what you can tell from
his letter to the paper's editor and publishers, Hebburg was
really just trying to get a little help solving this mystery.
He thought maybe there would be some experts there that could,
you know, point him in the right direction. At the
very least, he wanted to know on the surface.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
What was going on on the surface of this strange
stone that they found.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
On the surface, scraped into it with some sort of
pointy object.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Right, you know, we're gonna get into it later. But
you write to any paper, doesn't matter how well they
are known throughout the land. You write to a publication
and you say, look at this thing I found. It's
really strange. What do you think it is? I mean,
you're letting you're letting that publication know that it exists,
(10:21):
and it could be it is a mystery, right, no
matter what, just yeah, planting that seed. Well.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Also, it's the mayor of a rural area, so this
is one of the strangest things to happen, probably during
this mayor's tenure. But also let's assume that the editors
and publishers get a lot of letters in the post.
You know, maybe there's a two headed cow report, maybe
(10:49):
the crops are failing or overly abundant. The reason the
publisher reads this letter is because he is a friend
of the mayor, the guy who publishes the paper.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, or know that time that that one big fella
through that little fella and the woodchipper. Remember when that happened,
that was a big story at the time.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Especially yet but when it happened in the eighteen hundreds,
remember they didn't have electrically powered wood chippers, so the
wood schipper was a guy. So yeah, so they they
spread this. And I appreciate your point about possible motivations there, Matt,
because of course, the art of the coin teaches us
(11:32):
that if you want to pull a good con, if
this guy's motivations were anything less than sincere, then you
can't show all your cards at once. Right, the mayor
is talking to a personal friend of his, so he
uh he, in the most objective way possible, just says, okay,
here we go. What do you think. I think it
(11:54):
might be ancient Greek, but I don't speak it because
you know, if you want to real people in you
let them feel like they are making the decisions you
control them making. Anyway, the stone is at least real.
It's not a the stone itself. Its existence is not
a hoax. The same way that you know, we went
through a spate of people claiming a few years ago
(12:17):
to have found Bigfoot's corpse and there's enovitab. Yeah, they
had something. They had something. One case was like a
gorilla suit in a cooler. But there is a real
stone here, and we have very great descriptions of it.
It's made of a hard gray type of sandstone called
(12:38):
gray whack W A c K. It's about the size
of like your typical tombstone, I mean a gravestone, not
the pizza, which isn't pad. And it's this irregular rectangle shape,
regular rectangular shape. It weighs about two hundred and two pounds.
It's thirty inches high, thirty thirty one inches high, sixteen
(13:01):
inches wide, about five and a half to six inches thick.
So it's a it's hefty. It's not something you casually
carry around, and it seems like it would be a
difficult thing to lose in the first place, right, But again,
our species loses cities, civilizations, entire eras of history. Who
were the sea people's.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Anyway, continue asking that question for the rest of the show.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Can see that exists. I think as long as we
can just keep saying sea people's. I don't know why.
That just strikes me as delightful. The sea people I
just think of I picture you know, underwater dwelling types
with gills and webbed feet.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I picture sea monkeys. I'm just gonna be honest. It
was hard for me not to say that. During the
Bronze Age collapse thing, I was pulling up images of
old school sea monkeys, which I think really some kind
of shrip.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
It's all sea persons for me. You know persons, I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Murperson, bird person, all the hits, all the good ones.
So everybody agrees this stone exists. It has something carved
upon it, right, it has something carved into the face
of the stone, and the if you look at pictures
of this, which are widely available online, you'll see that
the front face looks partially damaged. So as possible, there
(14:21):
was more to this original message. And now now we
get to the very strange part. We know what the
message says, sort of. We have a bunch of linguists
who have been looking at this since eighteen ninety nine
at least, and they agree kind of on this message.
But ola first he didn't. According to him, he initially
(14:47):
thought that this was some kind of Indian almanac by
when you've meant Native American almanac. But later people said, wait,
those look like rooms.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Was that a quotation sound or an engraving sound?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
That was okay, cool? Engraving sound is more.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Like a oh no, But you made a sound earlier
in the episode.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Was that a scrubbing sound you made?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
I was, I was clarifying our sonic terms here.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, it was runes runs you I don't know on
this show. We've encountered runes many a time. I think
most commonly when dealing with research on the Nazi Party.
I think, at least for me, that's when type of
runes we've been encountering quite frequently.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Well, the notion that they have power, right, isn't that right?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Part of this right? The words have power in quite
a literal way. Yeah, runs are used in various magical
systems or traditional beliefs. They have also been kind of
what's the word appropriated by political movements or by metal band. Yeah,
(16:01):
and maybe they would say that's not appropriation, but in
the case of the Nazi Party, it's definitely appropriation.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well just just from a form factor, from like if
you're thinking about fonts or something, the rooms such as
these do there is something about them that is striking almost,
I don't know, almost in the way. The hieroglyphics have
the same kind of feel, where it feels like there's
more inside whatever's written or inscribed than just letters. It
(16:33):
feels that way.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
It reminds me of the same with a lot of
Asian characters, you know, where there feels like there's an
imbued meaning within the system. I mean, it's much more.
There's more to it than just a straightforward a shape
or a letter. You know, it feels like it's got
you can in the way that like certain Japanese characters
can tell a story, you know, with some brushstrokes, you know,
(16:56):
or there's a lot more contained within that one character
than with just a letter that would then be used
to spell out a word.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Right, Yeah, Runes are crazy. I watched I've been rewatching.
I've been watching like two Halloween movies, one to two
Halloween movies a day in October, and I stumbled upon
a film that I'd never heard of called Spell, which
is about a guy with OCD whose spouse passes away.
None of this is a spoiler, and so he just
(17:24):
sort of impulsively goes to Iceland, and he gets really
wrapped up in Icelandic folklore and runes, and I fell into.
I fell into the rabbit hole of Icelandic traditional beliefs,
and I spent I swear I spent like two hours
this past weekend wondering how we can make it a
(17:46):
stuff they don't want you to know episode until I said,
I'm just gonna have to I'm just gonna have to
be content to name drop that thing because there's not
a conspiracy.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
First place I ever remember hearing about runes was in
the The Hobbet movie where one of the gnomes is, like,
those are runstones, you know, that's the first and like,
you know, because they do have power. They're also in
a lot of obviously like RPG type games. They're in
Legend of Zelda. They are a way you can power
up a sword by adding a run stone to it
(18:18):
that gives it a special property or whatever. Outside the
scope of today's discussion, but still, the point is that
language can be imbued with meaning and power in the
right hands, at least in theory.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I really hope some of you also teleported on Ruins
and Ultimate Online the way I did, because that was
one of my favorite things. So let's just talk about
these ruins for a little bit. Runs in general it's
an ancient North European writing system, right. It's probably first
developed in the second century CE, and most likely under
Roman influence. They're also taught in several places throughout the world,
(18:55):
specifically in Scandinavian schools. School children in the nineteenth century
were learning what runes were, at least in a general sense,
in early education. In that way, more as a history lesson,
I think. I mean, that's my understanding. It would be
more of a let's learn about our history, our past.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
No, it's a skull omance thing. They're teaching those kids' spells,
teaching occult power over the elements, out to find fortune
and love and lay enemies to waste. No, you're right, though,
runs are a real thing. They're very very popular in fiction.
But they are very much a real thing, and they
(19:35):
were taught in various parts of Scandinavia to school children
in the eighteen hundreds. At least we know that for sure.
So here is the translation. This is again, this is
a generally accepted translation. There are going to be people
who go back and forth about the specifics here, but
(19:56):
it's like a it's a confession. Eh, we don't need
to we don't need a prologue. Here it is. We
are eight Goths and twenty two Norwegians on an exploration
valley from Vinland through the west. We had camp by
a lake with two scaries at small rocky islands. One
day's journey north from this stone. We were out and fished.
One day after we came home, we found ten of
(20:18):
our men red with blood and dead AVM standing probably
for ave Virgo Maria or Hail Virgin Mary, save us
from evil. We have ten of our party by the
sea to look after our ships. Fourteen days journey from
this island, year thirteen sixty two.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Whoa thirteen sixty two. These ruins are describing a couple
of different journeys that were taking, but one specific exploration journey.
I like how they put that from Vinland through the west. Hmmm,
we're gonna spendland.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Is that the same as Finland?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
We're gonna spend some time discussing what that may or
may I mean. I'm sure where is Vinland, you say,
But yeah, really interesting stuff like giving almost in uh
sunken treasure or in a hidden treasure map kind of
vibe like we're this where this distance away from this
(21:20):
stone from where we were. We're also this other distance,
in this other direction away from this stone for this
other thing. Fascinating that this thing, this message would end
up etched in stone in this place. Hmm, Well why
is it there? How did it get there? What does
it mean? We'll tell you, well, at least as much
(21:41):
as we know afterward from our sponsor.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
And we're back talking about potentially magical artifacts found in Minnesota. Uh,
not too too, too terribly far from Minneapolis, for we
know a magical creature once twelve Prince the Purple one,
but unrelated to any Goths or Norwegians that I know of.
But the Minneapolis Journal actually scooped the Swedish paper that
(22:15):
we discussed, the Swedish language paper that we discussed earlier
on that translation referencing said Goths and Norwegians eight and
twenty two in number, and it was kind of a thing.
The stone itself was put on display in a bank,
although this account we found on the internet incorrectly refers
(22:39):
to the bank as a drug store. And it's super
important to note that Omen never actually was looking to
get paid for his discovery. The Minnesota Historical Society actually
has a bill of sale showing that Omends sold the
stone to them for ten American dollars in nineteen and eleven,
(23:00):
which would be around three hundred bucks in twenty twenty,
closer to two hundred and sixty dollars. Wow, So what's
the deal? Where do the facts and the fiction meet?
And of which is there more? This is the question
I think we have for today.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
The first thing I would put forward is, who's to
say it wasn't a combination bank and drug store. I mean,
everybody's seen those.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Money, I mean drug You know, you certainly will see
banks in grocery stores and drugs and pharmacies in grocery stores,
though I cannot say I have ever met seen a
bank in a freestanding drug store.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
But or maybe we just need to pop up, you know,
banking institutions are stressful for a lot of people. Maybe
we need to pop up pharmacy right after you sign
thirty years of your life away and alone. I think
I think there's probably a law against that for good reason.
But it's not a bad idea. There's a lot of
(24:00):
money to be made.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
And then you can go next door to the combination
pizza Hut Taco Bell and get a little snack.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Seriously, yes, absolutely, But also, you guys are familiar with
the concept of minute clinics, right where the drug store
essentially will have a physician's.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Assistant care type situation.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Right, But in a drug store, why aren't there minute
clinics with psychiatrists in them, having a crusist or that
has a psychiatrist installed just waiting for you come come
to me. Yeah, I will prescribe.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
The probably because I would say probably because it's tougher
to help heal a wounded mind than it is to
help bandage up a broken arm.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I don't I don't mean. I don't mean to actually
do good for any patient. I just meant to push
more pills.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I got it. Oh okay, yeah, let the uh let
the oxy conton tycoons know right, there's a revenue stream
just like oil. Come. But he's figured out plastic. I
hope those words don't come back to haunt us. There
is a point though, that they don't want to lose.
We'll get too far from the translation, and that is
that the Goths are Swedes. Goth is a word for Swede.
(25:12):
They're not the they're not the Motley Crew from letter
Kenny or South Park.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
They're not cure fans, you know, with emo haircuts and
potential like chain mail belts or something like that black
fingernail polish.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
They pay have had chain mail, that's.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
True, likely on more than their belts, though, I would
I would imagine so unless it was something of religious
or spiritual cultural significance.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, this is an excellent question about fact versus fiction,
because if the Kensington Rumstone is what it's believers say
it is, and if the message on it is true
and is from thirteen sixty two, then it's hugely important
for our understanding of North American history, forget that of
(26:05):
world history. This would be a big deal because how
would how how would this group of Swedish people and
Norwegian people vikings working together? How would they how would
they reach the Midwest from Vinland? Right? Even though they
say they did it a great personal cost, they paid
(26:27):
them blood for this trip, it's still it's it's still
a long journey. Maybe we maybe we should pause for
just a second to talk about Venland. We've been throwing
this around. You've you've probably heard of Greenland, You've probably
heard of Iceland, and maybe the nifty little story behind
their names. Vinland is kind of in that same headspace.
(26:52):
It's an area of North America that was explored by
Norse vikings. Leif Erickson landed there around one thousand CE,
So you know, you don't have to be a math
doctor to know that's way before Columbus.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I mean, that's it's incredible to have that inscribed, you know,
allegedly in the thirteen hundreds. So I guess what I'm
trying to wrap my head around. I was reading this
story from the is It What is It? The Minnesota Post,
and they're discussing Vinland and the route through the west
from Vinland and what where that would be from where
(27:30):
it would actually be located. And I'm genuinely a little
bit confused because it seems as though it's a bit
unknown where Vinland is. Ben can do we have maybe
I just don't have it in my research, like actually
where it is located? So in current US.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, so right now, right now, the popular consensus is
that what we what was described as Vinland by Leif
Ericsson and co. Is probably an area that includes Newfoundland
and the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and maybe goes as
(28:10):
far as New Brunswick. So really it's it's Canadian, okay, okay,
but but it is. It is a wide range and
it is accepted as fact that these people arrived there
in one thousand CE. We just don't know what happened
in the thirteen hundreds.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Well, and if you definitely want to learn that's an
historically accurate account of what Vinland was. There is an
anime manga series called Vinland Saga, so that would be
the place to go. I'm kidding, but it is interesting
when a country like Japan, you know, portrays a culture
like the Viking type situation. It's very I don't know,
(28:51):
I'm intrigued by this because it does appear to be
like Viking ships and swords and that kind of high
jinks looks pretty interesting. But so what would what land
mass would we attribute it to, like if does it
still exist or find anything about? Oh, it's just North America,
just part of it, okay.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Interesting, it would be like the eastern upper upper eastern
coast of the North American continent. But from what we
know in the earliest accounts of Viinland, it was described
as it was first written about in ten seventy five,
and it was described as these remote islands. So imagine
(29:34):
you get close, you find some islands, and you think
we've gone really far, we should turn around. They didn't really,
from what we understand, they did not know the enormity
of the land mass that they were very very close to.
That makes sense, So Vinlands at this point is we
(29:56):
should also say it's the idea of these early Viking
floors of one thousand CE. It's a very popular idea.
It's in a lot of conversation. It's in the zeitgeist
in the eighteen nineties in Europe and in the US,
so someone would probably know someone in Minnesota would have
(30:18):
heard this story, especially given the massive Swedish population, they
would have been familiar with this, and that's why it
got so much interest from the media. There was a
flurry of investigations. We're talking scholars and linguists. They dive
into this description and they're fighting back and forth like
what kind of runic system is this? How old is it?
(30:40):
That's the big question, right, And then historians and scientists
are doing the same kind of thing that we were
just doing, where they're essentially pulling up a map and
they're going, okay, fictional boat, how does it get to Minnesota.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Well, dude, there's it's it's fascinating. If you just read
that translation, doesn't it call the place where the tablet
ends up an island and not just a hill?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Right?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
So that, right that alone makes the mind start wondering, well, wait,
what was this flooded? And unless you know the historical
record of the area you have extremely accurate information on that,
your mind may think, well, perhaps it was a lot
of a lot of this was flooded at some point,
even if it was only on a temporary basis, to
(31:35):
where this this whole area could be traversed by ship
or by boat rather than on on foot on land.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, we know the
geography can change, right, especially over over time. That's the thing.
If you're if you're hearing about this, and you're not
a scholar of ancient languages that are somewhat of scure,
and if you're not a forensic expert or a professional historian,
(32:07):
then this sounds like it's at the very least, it
sounds like it's an interesting thing, and it sounds very possible.
The stone itself ended up getting sent to some professionals
especially one professor George O. Kerm, who was a philologist
at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. And so so he
(32:32):
looks at it. He looks at this draft people are
figuring out about based on what we know about the inscription.
And when he looks at this first draft, he is
he's got a little spark of hope, right, are we
about to learn more about hidden history? But then he
inspected the language on the stone itself. You know, when
(32:55):
he when he did a firsthand investigation, he can't really
really puzzled, and it led him and many others to ask,
what the heck is going on? What is the provenance
of this stone? Will answer the question definitively afterward from
our sponsor.
Speaker 4 (33:21):
Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Okay, I gotta say it. It's fake.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
What no, Yeah, just like that, Just like that, it
gets crazy.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
It's fake.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
It's well, it gets a little crazier than that. But
the stone itself is ninety eight percent ninety eight point
ninety nine percent a hoax. At least it might be
an historical hoax like the Shroud of Turin or something spoilers,
but but this has proven pretty definitively they're big problems
(33:56):
with the stories. There's not just problems with the uh,
the story of the farmer finding it. There's a problem
with the story that's on the stone map.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Problems right like problems and.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
The farmer selling it for ten bucks, even if it
was two hundred and sixty bucks. Come on, this is the
thing's incredible ten bucks.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah. Look for the Vikings ships to have made a
fourteen day journey from Alexandria to where they ended up.
The only possible route they could have taken was from
Hudson Bay, which is eight hundred miles as the crow
flies longer if you take a more winding path like
a river, and having to pick up the boat and
put it back down, which is a word I learned
(34:41):
today called portage, and a particularly difficult distance to manage
in fourteen days in the way that it was described
here on the stone, the route through the west from Vinland,
that whole situation, whose location in thirteen sixty too would
have been unknown. That's a thing we've all kind of
(35:03):
struggled with us. We were trying to pick this thing apart,
and no other record of this expedition has been found
literally anywhere. So why would explore us, who had just
suffered such a massacre stop to carve in these beautifully
ornate and organized characters this stone inscription.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I would you know, just a counter a little bit
to that last part of there. I mean, if maybe
the belief is that all is lost, you want to
warn anyone else who's going to be coming this way
about something. Maybe you don't have enough information. So as
one of the men is dying, he's carving furiously trying
(35:44):
to get a message into this stone before he leaves,
or before his party leaves, or and he perishes. Just
putting it out there. This feels very video game like
to me or movie like, but just as a possible
reason to make them look like that.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Maybe a testament to the lives lost, uh, maybe some
way to make a mark before they themselves disappeared. Would
say that we do need to point out there were
no bodies found in the vicinity of the stone that
we know of.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And it's also it's a good question, we don't know
why this would happen in a vacuum, why there would
be no other uh, no other secondary source. If it's
a true story, then perhaps the grizzly fact of the
matter is that uh, the author, along with the their
cohort all died. Maybe no one made it back to
(36:40):
tell the tale of their you know, their their woefully
unfortunate trip. But okay, so that's a that's a huge
problem the math. These folks were mavericks. If they were
able to, if they were able to uh sail to
this various place in a way that would have required
(37:03):
them to at some point pick up their boats, physically
carry them across the ground, put them in another water source,
and continue on their merry way. That's a lot. But
there's another problem with the story, and I hate to
say it's a it's a problem with the farmer. It's
very very strange. I'm not calling them a liar, just
(37:25):
say it's very strange that Oloff would not have recognized
something familiar about rooms. Because remember, he grew up in
Sweden during a time when Scandinavian children were often taught
about rooms. He was not a I guess we wouldn't
call him a highly educated man, but that doesn't make
him unintelligent. He was literate. He had a small library
(37:48):
at his house, and some of those books had you
guessed it runs in.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Them, Okay, so then we have to wonder if the
inscription itself the message, if it was genuine. Hmm, well,
if someone were to inscribe something in uh, what did
we call it?
Speaker 3 (38:10):
That?
Speaker 2 (38:10):
That's a fun word that we just gray gray whack.
If someone were to you know, inscribe this thing in
grey whack, they would have to at least have an
understanding of what these ruins meant, how to put them
together to form, you know, sentences with meaning. And you know,
(38:32):
if the farmer does have these books, he did grow
up in a place where he learned at least parts
of this language. I don't know if he had the
nerve or the wherewithal to pull up a prank or
even a quick way to make ten bucks.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
The worst way to make ten dollars.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Ever, that's a lot of work to put in.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Like how long does it take the look, I've never
I imagine it would take a long time to carve
something into stone, right, So if you average out this
is maybe us being cheap skates. But's if you average
out that ten dollars across however many hours it would
(39:17):
have taken to make this, it's not a great gig,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
You know, it's two hundred and sixty, Like if you
were being commissioned to build a piece of art in
stone for two hundred and sixty dollars, that feels that
feels cheap to me for an ornate piece of stone.
But I don't know.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Hey, it's also kind of an odd prank, right, Like,
I mean, obviously we're talking about it. Obviously it got
some attention. You know, it was put up in the
drug store slash bank whatever, whichever one it was, combination
drug store bank. But what do you think the end
game was just to make a fuss, just to get
people excited or riled up.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
That's a good question. And there have been some people
who guessed that this conspiracy, and it is a conspiracy
if it's a hoax. There have been some people who
guessed that it had more than one involved, more than
one person, that one of Oman's friends pastor former pastor
named Zvin vogel Blod. Vogel Blod may have helped him
(40:23):
out because Sven had a knowledge of ruins. And according
to a couple sources, again this is touchy. This is like,
this is like the Syrian sources writing about the assassins.
You know, there are sources who say that both of
these guys, Spinn and Olaf, didn't like academics, they didn't
like the Ivory Tower. They resented them for some reason.
(40:47):
So maybe this is like a little a little fillip
toward them, or you know, a bite of the thumb.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Just a quick philip. Yeah, that's the word for it,
you know, I know, I just we never heard anyone
in like twenty in the whatever this era is referred
to flipping someone a quick philip.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
I love it, I love it. You know, it's funny.
We mentioned at the top of the show how this
sort of reminded me of the Georgia guidestones. I think
one misconception about the Georgia guidestones is that they're a hoax,
is that they're meant to be interpreted as some sort
of ancient artifact, like some sort of Stonehenge type situation.
But you know, it's certainly something that the mind might
(41:34):
jump to when just seeing it cold, because they do
appear to be these ancient kind of carved, you know,
granite slabs that very much resemble a stone hinge. But
obviously we know at the very least the mystery behind
that is what the identity actually was of the man
who paid to have them erected and designed. But we
know that a man did have them erected design with
(41:54):
the full cooperation of the city and the you you know,
bought the plot of land and all that stuff. So
that's different, but still very interesting in that they are both.
You know, the guidestones are sort of meant to resemble
something that could be taken as ancient, but it serves
a much more modern purpose. I understand the meaning and
(42:17):
the point behind the guidestones. I don't understand the meaning
and the point behind this.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
If it were a hoax, right right, right, Yeah, So
that's I mean, that's a key question because we don't
have definitive proof that well off omen made these things
as a jolly prank. In fact, he never admitted a hoax,
(42:42):
even unto his deathbed. Again, as we said, he wasn't.
He clearly was not out to become wealthy from this,
and he was adamant he stuck to his story. He
was steadfast about his version of events until his death,
and he stuck by the story even when the the
academics that he reputedly resented came back with problems with
(43:05):
the inscription itself. They first analyze it in eighteen ninety nine,
right same year it gets reported, and a lot of
these experts dismiss it as fake. Back then, they say
there are too many discrepancies in the form and the vocabulary.
Because they're like the Indiana Jones top men. They get
(43:27):
together and they say, okay, look, we are experts in
a very specific field. The known language is of fourteenth
century Scandinavia, and we checked with each other, and none
of us think this is legit. They were saying that
back in eighteen ninety nine, early nineteen hundreds. Most experts
since then have agreed. But even if you say, even
(43:54):
if you say, well, maybe this person was just writing
in a weird way. Around half of their friends were dead.
It was a very trying time. They were very stressed out.
Even if we accept that, we have to ask ourselves
about the age of these things, the condition of the rock.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah, so they're you know, they're picked up in eighteen
eighty nine, right, and if you're talking about what is
that five hundred years that they would have been laying there,
or yeah, more than five hundred years that they had
been laying there, you'd think that the stone inscriptions would
(44:37):
have just been worn to nothingness, or at least worn
heavily after all that time of just the elements and
laying there being you know, scraped. I know it doesn't
sound like much, but being scraped by roots and by dirt,
and as water runs underneath it every time it rains,
and all these other things. The weird thing is, though,
(44:57):
to me, is if it's laying on its face and
it isn't directly being hit by rain and debris all
that time, I don't know, I feel like it would
degrade less so than if it was facing up. But
but maybe that's just my ignorance as to how things
(45:18):
actually get weathered and what five hundred years can do
to something. But you know, I know that's certainly in
question here. Why were the rooms still so intact and
seemingly pristine?
Speaker 3 (45:31):
I see you're saying, if it was like mounted like
a tombstone upright, then it would be spared more like
then if it were like you know, mounted on the
ground facing up, then probably that amount of time the
ruins would have been completely wiped away.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
You know, Well, I guess what I'm saying is because
of how it was found, correct, me if I'm wrong, Ben,
But I think it was found face down. Yeah, you
don't see the ruins. You see just the rest of
the greywack stone. You pick it up, and then you
see the.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
Rooms that certainly would have preserved it. I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
That's my thought, But I know that experts at the
time were just saying, I hear you know, I hear
what you're saying, Matt. This is what the experts would
have said. Hear what you're saying, Matt. But we're talking
about five hundred years.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Well, also over yeah, over five hundred years, would root
systems of other trees not have broken gulfed it? Yeah,
and golfed it, broke in more of the stone into
bits or you know, eroded. At time, weares on things,
on all the works of man. So maybe we can say,
(46:37):
what about the most popular poplar tree in town in
eighteen ninety eight, how old was the tree? They did
an interesting thing, not super scientific. The tree that held
the stone was destroyed by nineteen ten, but people went
back to the site. They looked around the area, They
saw other poplar trees, like a nearby hopes of poplar trees,
(47:01):
and they had local saying Okay, these poplars are around
the same size, they're around the same age. And then
the experts knocked down some of those trees and through
the magic of dendo chronology, they figured out that those
trees were probably between thirty to forty years old. So
the age of that, if that gives us information about
(47:23):
the age of the tree where the stone was supposedly found,
then we know that that root system had engulfed it
within thirty to forty years. Again, if this is true,
because another person who was at the excavation site later,
(47:43):
who visited it, a county school superintendent named Cleve Van Dyke, said,
hold on, those trees are only ten or twelve years old.
But you know he said that in a Minnesota accent.
I imagine, and I.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Were just tempted. Haven't attempted a Nordic accent yet or
a Scandinavian ben you promised us a buick off mic.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
What we were talking. We were sorry.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
I don't mean to throw you under the prse.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
There we go worth it.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
But just I hear you about the trees like that,
that makes a whole lot of sense as to why
it would have ended up where it was. If those
trees were only that old, right, Just to jump back
quickly to the inscription and the age possibly of that
there was there's an analysis in two thousand and three
(48:36):
done on the actual inscriptions the ruins that are you know,
inscribed into the rock. And there's a person Scott F. Walter,
who conducted this analysis, and you know, according to him
in his study, they were around two hundred years old,
So that would put them in the eighteen hundreds. We're
(48:57):
talking about eighteen ninety eight, eighteen ninety nine when they're
you know, first discovered and studied. It's an interesting thing
because to me, I know that two hundred years isn't
come on. That's not an exact number of years that
these inscriptions have been on there. But that gives you
a pretty at least a good idea of how old
(49:20):
they were, rather than seven hundred years, six hundred years,
five hundred years. But it is interesting to think that
at least in one analysis it put the range of
only around two hundred years rather than you know, the
five hundred six hundred year range.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Right. And even that even that measure is controversial, right,
You'll find a lot of people who reject that. I
just have to say, with this cast of characters, who's
the guy who made Spinal Tap Best in Show?
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Christopher Guest Christopher Guests.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yeah, feels like Kensington Runestones would be a great Christopher
Guest film.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Oh, that's a good idea, would be.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
There's a there's a really great, very small part in
Waiting for Guffman where David Cross plays like a historian
or something and he's talking about you know, he's like
a UFO enthusiast, and he said, in this circle it's
always two degrees colder with a five chance of rain,
(50:24):
like he's out in the field. That's the only time
you hear from David Cross in that movie. But I
love that part, such.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
A wonder shot. A bunch of other stuff, and then
it just ended up getting cut on the on the
cutting room floor because.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
They play, they have a good time with those movies.
It's all, you know, mostly improv I think, with like
a skeletal outline. So I wouldn't doubt that there's probably
some good outtake somewhere out there in the world.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Well, Chris, if you if you're listening to the show,
let us know when we can expect your feature film
on the Kensington runestone and whether or not it is
a hoax. This there's one thing that I held back
on that I think I think is substantive and should
(51:10):
be mentioned. There are a lot of people in the
area today, especially who say they believe in the veracity
of the roomstone. Now is that a measure of sincere
belief or is that sort of like a regional pride thing? Right?
Like how I was going to say, like how Atlanta
(51:31):
still supports the Falcons, But I don't.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Think like Blaine, Missouri and their stools. You know, that
was another Christopher Guest reference.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
I'm just saying, let's give it, let's give them both
in But there was one great comparison I read from
a linguistics expert about this. I'm just going to read
this line to you, guys, just the one line. Remember
when Neil Armstrong landed on the moon in nineteen sixty
nine and said, LMAO, this is tight. That's that language
(52:03):
is off by about fifty years, says linguist Jackson Crawford.
And his argument is that the language of the Kensington
rumstone is off by about six hundred years. He's an
old Norse specialist with a PhD. So, in his professional opinion,
this was written far after it claimed to be written.
(52:25):
As a matter of fact, it may have been written
around the late eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
Hmmm, strange and suspect. It really just brings you back
to the question why would someone do this? And if
it was the farmer, well, then why would he? I mean,
why didn't he sell it for more money? Why didn't
it become a tourist attraction of some sort. We've seen
(52:50):
on this show several times throughout the years where in
places across the United States, a hoax of some kind
will begin and it takes on a life of its own,
and even if it has proven to be a hoax,
it becomes a museum or a place where you can
go and see it, and you know, the person who
found it or the family can prosper from it, even
(53:11):
if it is considered a hoax by everybody. I mean,
it's it's something that can happen, and it didn't seem
to happen that way for all off. It's just it's
very weird, and you didn't come forward to say, oh, yeah,
this was a hoax. Later on in life, nobody else
did either, So maybe Olof did discover something that someone
(53:33):
else hoaxed, which is a possibility that we can't completely
throw away. But it's just I don't know, none of
it feels right, or maybe maybe it just doesn't amount
to much. I guess that's why there's such a problem
with it when I'm thinking about it. However, you can
go and see it right now. It still exists, and
(53:55):
it's in a museum.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
In the Runstone Museum right.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
Oh, yes, the ruins Stone Museum that you can visit now,
though maybe you don't want to go in person, maybe
you can do it virtually. But if you were going
to go in person, it's at two oh six Broadway, Alexandria, Minnesota,
five six, three oh eight. And you know, there's a
phone number you can call and you can see all
this stuff and learn more about the runestone itself, at
(54:20):
least according to the museum at Runstone Museum dot Org.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
And while you're there, why not make a day of it.
The Runestone Museum is just across the way. It's walking
distance from the Legacy of the Lakes Museum. And I
kid you, not a gigantic Viking statue.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
Nice? Well, then the Runestone, by the way, at the
museum is displayed beautifully. It looks incredible on that website.
You can see lots of pictures of it. There's some
videos in there, there's I think a few ships like
Scandinavian ships, and there's a whole scan in in heritage
exhibit there. That's I mean, I would say it's probably
(55:03):
gonna be worth your time. I'd love to go.
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Yeah, I agreed. I would also love to check this out.
You can see the story of this, you can get
a map of the county there. You can also visit
the Kensington Runestone Park, which is a short drive from
the museum, and you can learn more at the Kensington
Heritage Society. We want to say again there are people
(55:28):
like there are people who believe that this is an honest,
the gosh nis Viking relic, and then there are other
people to be cannedid the majority of academics who believe
that it is in some way an historical hoax. But
don't let that ruin a good trip to the museum,
you know what I mean. I that's one of the
(55:52):
only things I miss is I miss museums. You know,
miss handshakes. Those are always those have always been weird yeah,
but museums are great.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
Yeah, museums were nice in zoos.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
Yeah. Well yeah, the Atlanta Zoo is back up and running.
It's it's got COVID safe precautions in place with they
only let a certain number of people in and I
went and it wasn't too bad, and that's a good zoo.
I think the Atlanta Zoo is a good zoo because
it's a lot of the animals that are in there
wouldn't survive in the wild, which maybe some people take
issue with that version of events. I understand that, but
(56:28):
it does it. It's okay with me.
Speaker 1 (56:30):
Yeah. And just because the Kensington Roomstone is likely a hoax,
it doesn't mean that Viking relics other Viking relics aren't real.
It doesn't mean that there are not more strange tales
of a free Columbus era exploration from Europeans. You'll you'll
(56:52):
see all kinds of arguments. There's there's one that's pretty
interesting about Greek contact in the fourth century BCE, because
a guy named J. Richard Stepfi looked at the construction
of a Greek ship from the fourth century and found
they used a mixture of agave leaves and pitch where
(57:15):
does a gave grow? Interesting? Right, it's not proof, but
it's it's not fire, but it's smoke. You can also
learn more about theories about the priory of Scion and
things like that which are of varying lausibility, and the
legend of Saint Brendan, the Irish Monk. The list goes on.
(57:39):
But I think if we are doing due diligence and
admitting when something seems like a hoax, even though the
story about it would be cool, I think what we're
doing our due diligence there, we have to be careful
to remember that this does not in thesess, This does
not automatically mean every other controversial historical relic is I'm how.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
A hoax, oh, one hundred percent. And I think it's
important that we keep that kind of thing in the
backs of our minds whenever we're exploring something like this,
Like even if everybody says it's a hoax, let's at
least think about it on the base context of what
everybody else is working with before passing judgment. I think
that's important. And to that end, we very much want
(58:22):
to know what you think about the Kensington runestone, and
you know, any other thing that we just mentioned a
few moments ago, but the Kensington Runestone in particular. Have
you been, have you seen it? Have you heard any
tales about it? I'd love to know your experience at
the museum again, just so I can live through through
your experience as I miss museums along with Ben and
(58:44):
Noel and Paul. But yeah, you know what other kind
of stuff about, you know, pre contact, pre Columbus contact
from Europeans here in the Americas. What do you think
about all of that stuff? You can contact us. We're
all over social media on Twitter and Facebook, we are
conspiracy stuff. On Instagram, we are conspiracy stuff. Show that's right.
Speaker 3 (59:08):
If you want to get a hold of us in
a different way, you can join our Facebook group, which
is called Here's where It gets crazy easy as pie
to get in. Just a name and name, any name
will do. An interesting name, a name from conspiracy history,
but preferably a name of myself or matter Ben or
Mission Control or Doc Holliday and you're in. Or just
(59:28):
make Ben laugh.
Speaker 1 (59:29):
Yes, yes, someone had a great pun and I was
laughing so hard that I just approved you. And I'm
sorry I should have saved it for the air. But yes, yes,
let us know. We try to be easy to find.
If you don't sip the social needs. If going online
(59:49):
is not your bag of badgers, that we have a
different ruinstone for you to hit up to contact us.
Check out the series of numerical hieroglyphs on your phone,
your telephonic device, and uh cast a spell, you know,
cast one eight three three see it with us st
(01:00:11):
d w y t k, and you will speak directly
into a void that may speak back.
Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
That's right, real poor on one eight three three std
w y t k real poor everyone.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Uh well, in my head, baby, that's all good. That's all.
Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
There's there's three people listening that got that, And I
hope you appreciate it as much as I do.
Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yeah, because I think we're I think we're lost. Man,
we're trying to Yes, that's all good.
Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
Guys, Just gather as much blood moss and man man
drake roote. I think if you just gather a bunch
of that, you need those reagents.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
What was that one from the Skyrim man the dragon yell?
Those were rune based, weren't they? Yeah, fos the one
fa hey, And if you don't want to do any
of that, you can send us a good old Fustora.
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff they don't
(01:01:28):
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