July 21, 2026 • 68 mins
The movement known as Falun Dafa or Falun Gong began in China in the 1990s, and today people across the planet consider themselves practicioners. Adherents claim this combination of meditation, breathing exercises, mindfulness and moral philosophy is a path to enlightenment -- but the government of China disagrees. For decades Chinese authorities have considered Falun Gong a dangerous, subversive element. Since 1999 the government has made concerted efforts to suppress this spiritual practice -- but why? Tune in to learn more.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Folks, if you live in the United States, and if
you've ever been to a big city, you have doubtlessly
seen a lot of flyers. One of those flyers is
inevitably going to be for a performance called Shen.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yun n on the Moon Baby.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Yeah, this is a This one gets a special shout
out to a lot of our friends in the Chinese diaspora,
notably our good friend and phenomenal artist jun Yi Leo,
who actually Nola and I collect some of Juni's art.
We can't say enough good about it. We have not
asked Junii about the parents of shen Yun, an organization
(00:40):
called Following Gong, which is a religious movement to its
proponents and champions, a cult to its critics, and a
terrorist organization to the government of China. Ya.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
He kind of nailed it there, ben I, dude, just
want to point I was just talking to my girlfriend
about shen Yun the other night and how ubiquitous their
marketing is and how it's just as ubiquitous is in
Atlanta as it is your New York city, And she
pointed out to me that there are quite a few
Shinyan parody troops doing shows and like drag shows revolving
around kind of campy parodies of the old China before
(01:14):
communism theme that Shinyun tends to promote.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Is this a thing? Can you guys recall? Is this
the thing that South Park has covered?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I think they must have in some way, least in
terms of the ubiquity of the advertising, but I don't
know if they did a full episode. But it's so
meme worthy, Like that's why I say shenyuon on the Moon.
I think I saw a meme where it was like
a billboard of Shenyun like on you know, just the
surface of Mars or something.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I'm just going back through the official Shenyun dot org
website and looking at this huge write up they have
with titles within this article like why the CCP is
after us? It goes over their beliefs, it goes over
things that the Chinese Communist Party has officially done to
like thwart them from being able to perform things like that.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, because again, like we'll talk about this in the episode,
but their big thing is promoting you know a certain
part of Chinese cultural history that does not involve communism,
which I think is real, is a real bone of
contention with the communist regime, saying that they're in some way,
you know, disrespecting the current, you know, state of affairs.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Is that is that right, Ben?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, Yeah, you're absolutely on the money there in oels.
Since nineteen ninety nine, the government of China has made concerted,
serious efforts to suppress this movement, the spiritual practice, whether
you call it Fallunnglong or following Daffa. And there have
been accusations of very evil things up to an including
oregon harvesting. So we recorded this back in twenty twenty one.
(02:48):
We would love to hear your thoughts, especially if you
yourself have ever attended a shen Yun performance. Let's roll the.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
Tape from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History
is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now
or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
A production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul. Mission control decands, most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. We'll started a weird but very
human direction here. Who hasn't amongst us in the audience
today felt lost at one point or another. Think about it,
(03:51):
washing the dishes, you're working, maybe on a repetitive job,
or you're stuck in traffic. You heard the same song
three times, You're walking up the street, the same path
you always take, and it hits you all the suddenly.
What does it all mean? Why are we even here?
What's the point? Is existence? Just like a check mark
participation grade?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Yes, yes, yes, all of those?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Okay, great, me too.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
That's a bleak, fellas that a bleak?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Oh no, you haven't hit that yet?
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Oh god, yes, are you kidding me? I thought I
use my GPS when I go down the street to
the store. I mean, okay, that's a different kind of loss.
But absolutely, of course, I think we've all been there.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
And this existential crisis is one of the great unifiers,
I would argue of the human species. It draws a
lot of people to structured belief systems, religions at any type,
humanitarian work, you know, secular stuff too, even self improvement
on a small scale, like hey, I'm going to exercise more,
I'm going to take up meditation, I might get a
(04:52):
new hobby. Heck, I'll take that improv class. These are
all answers to, you know, the scary questions of mortality
and meaning, and there is no shortage of individuals or
organizations that are more than willing to give the loss
and the troubled a feeling of serenity, fulfillment, and purpose.
(05:12):
This brings us to today's episode, the winding mysterious and
at times troubling story of something known as the Falloun Gong.
In English, this literal translation would be something like law
will practice, but it's a tricky thing to translate into English,
so for now we're just going to say following Gong,
(05:33):
So breathe deep. Here are the facts.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
So following Gong is also known as follown Dafa, and
if you look at some of the official websites, you
will see following Dafa a lot. It describes itself as
a spiritual practice, as many has been just described earlier.
It's rooted in Buddhist tradition and it consists of two
primary components that feel pretty good. But the first one
(06:01):
is self improvement through the study of teachings, and like
many organizations, fallen Gong Fellendolpha has its own set of
books and writings and teachings, and these are mainly about
the qualities of the universe, the underlying stuff, the stuff
that is that makes up existence, you and me, and
(06:22):
the connection to everything, Truth, compassion, and forbearance. If you
go on their website, it says very specifically truth, compassion, forbearance.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
The second component is going to be pretty I would
say pretty familiar to a lot of us, and that
is a gentle exercise and meditation. By gentle exercise we
mean what is sometimes called low impact exercise. So this
is not CrossFit push yourself past your limits stuff. This
is stretchy, this is slow, This is meditative. This is
(06:56):
not meant to break your bones. According to all the
sources you can look at, including official Following Gong sources,
it was developed by a guy named Li hong Shi.
He says that he was the recipient of teachings from
more than twenty masters Buddhism and Chigong, from which Followungong
(07:20):
is descended. He tested this. According to him, he tested
this practice this system out with several followers aka disciples
first and then eventually brought it public in May of
nineteen ninety two, so this is already we know this
is a very new religion, even if the claims about
(07:43):
its ancient roots are true. Chikong is We talked about
this earlier, I think in an episode called what is Chi?
But chigong is primarily composed of these frankly amazing breathing exercises.
But Lee added something else to the mix. He added
(08:03):
stories in here, accounts, anecdotes, a world full of fantastical things,
and a world with hints of a forthcoming apocalypse, and
his books became bestsellers. I don't want to poison the
well here, but some of this path has you know,
(08:25):
not for nothing have outside observers said. This bears some
similarities with other leaders of movements like l. Ron Hubbard,
who also also wrote extensively. But this was accepted by
the government of China. It was accepted by the Chigong
bodies right, because there are many Chigong movements, so the
(08:48):
Chinese National Chigong Scientific Research Association in that same time
period of nineteen ninety two, they also said, okay, yeah,
we dig it, you know what I mean, full speed ahead.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Ben, Ben, Can we just really quickly hit on those
two books?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, totally. The first two were Schwan Falung and Fallun Gong.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
These are kind of primers to the philosophy. Here is
what we're doing based on what I learned. Here is
the goal of what we're doing, you know what I mean?
Filled with again, filled with stories that did not ordinarily
occur in previous previous traditions of this sort.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Oh yeah, And I just want to go back to
your el Ron Hubbard comparison here. It's interesting because in
Eleron's writings he kind of held off on the aliens
and the the stuff that went beyond some of the
self healing.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
When you paid your way in far enough. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
But but in these books, it's just right there in
front of you as soon as you start getting into
the materials. I just I found that to be interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, Yeah, there's I guess you would say a little
more transparency in that regard. But whatever you feel about
those things, we want to be very clear here, we
ourselves are not following gong practitioners. Although I think all
of us have done things like meditation and mindful breathing
and yoga, this is a different thing. And no matter
(10:24):
how you feel about the claims that Lee makes no
matter how you feel about the practices of the organization
in terms of exercise and philosophy, there's no arguing this.
Those books were instant bestsellers, and people across the country
of China loved this idea, loved this concept, and Lee
(10:45):
started making public demonstrations of his of his perceived abilities,
which also ties in a little bit to our episodes
on faith healing and laying on of hands.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Okay, so back to the timeline.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
In December of nineteen ninety two, Lee hung z did
his very first public demonstration of his abilities at the
nineteen ninety two Oriental Health Expo in Beijing. Apparently he
caused a paralyzed and wheelchair bound man to walk, destroyed
gall and kidney stones within another individual, and cured difficult,
(11:20):
quote difficult and complex illnesses of all kinds. So needless
to say, he made quite a splash, and the director
of the fair declared, is like you, you won the fair.
He declared that Fallon Gong was the star cultivation system.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Oh wow, what does that even mean?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Like cultivating like the stars from the Uni from the galaxy.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
Mmm.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I took it as a best in show, best in show,
but still that's very I love the.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Turn of phrase. Let's leave it there to me. It
really is like you're, you know, the brightest shining boy
in the room.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Well, as Ben said there the laying on of hands
episode that we did, I think everyone can hear the
similarity there. And you know we we weren't there in
nineteen ninety two. We can't tell you exactly what happened,
you know, or if there were any plants in the audience,
but if those things were true, they would be miracles.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Well I was you know, you guys know my schedule.
I was busy. I didn't get over there. Yeah, but
I heard good things.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Yeah, I was nine. I think in doing something with
a Nintendo pretty sure.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I don't think I should say where I was. In
December of nineteen ninety three, at the nineteen ninety three Expo,
Lee was given to awards and this is, you know,
the second iteration of his appearance there. He got the
Award for Advancing Boundary Science and the Chigong Master Most
(12:53):
Acclaimed by the Masses. So that's like the no, and
I am not dismissing this at all, just for an
analog or a comparison. This is a lot like saying
you got the Audience Appreciation Award. Yes, you know what
I mean, people like you the most. So we started
giving classes all over the country in the ways of
(13:15):
this philosophy throughout the early to mid nineties, and for
a while, as we mentioned, this enjoyed a great deal
of domestic fame as well as what appeared to be
somewhere between the open support of the Chinese government to
the tacit support to at the very least toleration of it. Right, Like,
(13:38):
they're not hurting anyone, they're not violating our unwritten law,
don't mess with the money, let them go stretch in
the park exactly.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And in a way, it's kind of a nice little
cultural at least information export, right, It's an interesting thing.
It's a cool little peace that we can share. And wow,
we've got this. I don't I want to say miracle worker,
but we've got someone with essentially supernatural powers that practices
(14:10):
in China. Cool, enjoy, be healthy, all o kod.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah, this goes internationals soon after. Like, when you think
about the spread of this movement, I have to see
it's impressive. You know, a few decades later people would
call this kind of growth viral instead of exponential. Yeah,
by nineteen nineteen ninety five or so, Lea is spreading
(14:38):
his message past the borders of China. He's lecturing in
Paris and Stockholm. He's lecturing in Sydney, in Houston, Texas,
which seemed a weird draw, but these are the facts,
and New York City in nineteen ninety six. But while
he's out speaking abroad and spending a less and less
time in China, things aren't going so well on the
(15:03):
home front, are.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
They No, the tide was turning inside of China while
he was gone, because in nineteen ninety five, the organization
fell and Gong left the one that it had originally joined,
the Key Goong Scientific Research Association, which you know could
or could not be a big deal, but it does
mean they're going independent, right, It means they're gaining power
(15:28):
in some way, and the Chinese government started to see
them as essentially a threat. And it's really because they
were growing so exponentially and so quickly, and some of
these spiritual beliefs, the religious teachings that were in those books,
they were going a little bit against what would be
considered traditional or at least the party line of what
(15:50):
the party wanted its citizens to be thinking about, believing in,
and ultimately they feared that this thing would grow so
big it would be threat because it was independent of
a lot of those internal institutions.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, and you know this doesn't come from nowhere or
necessarily uninformed paranoia. There is a long history in this
area of the world, going back to the dynasty days
in China, of the governing bodies having to actively and
aggressively work against the possibility of domestic descent. In a way,
(16:28):
the government at the time was reacting to what they
saw the president as the precedent set by earlier domestic unrest.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
What is it that you think about this religion and
this movement that caused it to catch on so much.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
It's just very appealing. I think if you look on
the face of it, it's extremely appealing. You don't have
to work too hard. It's mostly meditative and it seems
to have a kindness on the front. And we're going
to talk a little bit more about some of the
ways some of the ways the ideas are spread and
why they seem, especially when you bring in the persecution
(17:03):
angle that we're going to get to why it seems
like something you'd want to join to fight for.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And the majority of from what we understand, the majority
of Followngngong members are recruited by members of their biological families,
So there is a furthering and a deepening of the
sense of community in this endeavor, and community, from what
I understand, is the thing that people like. It's true,
(17:31):
people dig it. So as you said, the tides turning,
the tides turning against the practitioners of Followungong because it's
seen as a threat to the status quo. We know
that sometime in this somewhere in this time period, members
(17:52):
of Following Gong started becoming active online. There were early
adopters of the Internet, but it's difficult to know exactly
when this occurred because like the rators in Neil Stevenson's Anathem,
they spend a lot of time changing the past or
they A more diplomatic way would be to say, and
(18:13):
I mean both the Chinese government and some factions of
Following Gong they carefully edit and curate old material from
their websites, so it's tough to know some of the
specifics of timelines here. But they didn't take this line down,
They got mad, and the practitioners started protesting outside of
(18:34):
various media outlets in China that they've if they felt
those outlets were misrepresenting the goals of Followungong and the
lives and aims of the practitioners. Basically say, you know,
stop being evil. That's it, that's not like on the
face of it, that's that's a cool thing, not to
(18:55):
be to be evil. Google once did that.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
No longer does I remember those days.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
It's no longer their motto, right, But also, don't be evil,
way different from be good?
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Yeah, very Imma.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
We thought that was a weird one.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Was it like sort of like a guiding principle sort
of a reminder to themselves to like do a good
job with the power that you've been you've given yourselves.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
That's a weird one. I always thought that was very strange.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
So this is nineteen nine, like we've led up to
ninety six, right, that's when they're doing their protesting. Then
the next year, as pressure is mounting from the party
within China, Lee he ends up getting out of China
And where does he head? New York City?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Okay, yeah, because it wasn't he wasn't he wasn't he
beginning to be branded as a dissident already?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, four years before.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Uh yeah, I was going to say, is you know,
just picture Lee somewhere and he's been to New York
before at this point, and he says, hey, kid, you
can make it here, you could make it anywhere. And
then he has that whole sitcom moment. Yeah he does.
He does go to New York. You know, something's in
the wind, I would imagine. And let's pause here, we've
(20:12):
got one. We're waiting for the other shoe to drop.
So let's let's hear from our sponsors who may not
be Fellongong today.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Maybe we don't know it's it's probably not Felling Gong,
but it is shn yin.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Uh spoilers, We'll be back to watch the hammer fall.
Fast forward nineteen ninety nine, there's a massive protest against
the government of China on the part of the Ballongngong.
(20:49):
Shortly after that protest, the PRC begins a nationwide crackdown
and they go ham there's this huge propaganda push there,
aim is to eradicate the following gong. How serious are
they about this? Well, they make a new security agency
whose entire job is to eliminate Following Gong. It's called
(21:12):
the six' Ten. Office it started In june of nineteen ninety.
Nine to describe some of the stuff that the government
was doing against this. Organization they they were bulldozing educational,
tapes you know WHAT i. Mean they were pulling all
the stuff they could off the internet if. Possible they
(21:34):
were publicly denouncing any members if it got to the
point where, like depending on your, job it might be
dangerous for your first year employment, status uh to be
a member Of Following, gong and then soon after it
maybe dangerous for your personal. Freedom they also Blocked oh
(21:54):
they didn't just Block Following gong, websites they blocked websites
from other. Places and there were a few countries that Mentioned.
Follongong they were, like, eh, SORRY i know your blog
is mainly about your backpacking travels Through Southeast, asia but
you mentioned the wrong, Organization so now your whole website
is shut down for one point three billion.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
People.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Wow so imagine you start as an exercise group and
the next thing you, know you're in a full on
information war with one of the world's most powerful, countries
a country that's also becoming one of the world's leaders
in this kind of asymmetrical. Warfare this Gets david And
goliath pretty. Quickly if the story so far is.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
True and this is a good time to bring this.
Up Maybe ben in our research for this, episode And,
ben you pointed this out AND i also noticed, it
and know, What i'm sure you did. Too, really what
you find on The, internet save for a few mostly objective,
writers is information that is extremely Pro Fello gong or
(22:57):
extremely Anti Fellan.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Goong, well even The american media for quite some time
was very Pro Fello, gong it would, seem because they
sort of acted as this like buffer against like the you,
know the distrustfulness that is pretty common around Like chinese information,
control and they sort of represented almost this, like you,
know example of the heavy handedness of The chinese. Government in,
(23:22):
fact there's an interview with the founder Of Fallong gong
In time magazine in nineteen ninety. Nine SO i, mean in,
general The american press was pretty pretty kind to them
as an.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Organization THE us would enter this information war later for
motivations of its. OWN i suspect motivations of its, Own
but Maybe i'm being a. Jerk so back in ninety,
nine same year as that, time interview Following gong becomes
illegal In. China, however the horse of dissidents has left
(23:56):
the proverbial. Barn the followers are widespread in an other
thing that maybe THE prc didn't count. On these followers
are tremendously media. Savvy REMEMBER i said they were earlier
adopters of things like The internet and emerging. Technology so
in the years since being declared a quote heretical organization
(24:16):
that threatens social, stability they have dispatched thousands upon thousands
of press, releases these staged live events and, protests things
that are purposely and beautifully designed to gather headlines to
get international eyes on the. Story they've also kept a
(24:37):
very strong internet. Presence you can check out some of
their official official territories online. Now they also became increasingly,
litigious and they would slap people with a defamation lawsuit
if they published something saying saying stuff that to us
might even seem. Innocuous you, know there was still there
(24:59):
was try to bring the hammer down the way that
The chinese government was bringing the hammer down on. Them
and like we alluded to just a few minutes, ago
Following gong adherents for a very long time were treated
in an extraordinarily kind way by The western. Press they
love This david And goliath. Story they also sometimes supported
(25:23):
the group's religious or political. Agendas as you can, Imagine
Following gong becomes very strongly Anti chinese, government and when
it broke in The, west when THE us and In
europe started entering, this you would see a lot of
reports from politicians and journalists who were ridiculing The chinese
(25:46):
government and they were, Saying, wow These communist leaders are so, paranoid,
aka they know their ideas are so bad that they're
going to treat this group of quote exercising grannies like countert.
Terrorists and they all had a good laugh about that
right in the in the news cycle of the. Time
(26:07):
and they got some facts wrong while they were doing.
It they got, like they got one big fact very much.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Wrong that's.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Right western sources originally had claimed that THE prc was
reacting to popularity. Alone they argued that The Communist party
had sixty to seventy million, members But fellongong had one hundred,
million and this did not seem to be the. Case
multiple scholars agreed that the Fellan gong only had about
(26:34):
two to ten million practitioners at that. Time, also why
weren't Other remember this is all a product of a larger,
movement the Key gong. Movement why weren't other practitioners of
those techniques band?
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Right there Were, again there are Multiple there are multiple
groups that are descended from this ancient tradition of mindfulness
and exercise and, meditation and they seem to be just.
Fine nothing wrong with those. Folks, sadly as any longtime
listener of this show, knows it is the opposite of
(27:11):
unusual for world governments to repress movements they see as
dangerous to the status. Quo on so many, levels there's an,
abundance a, plethora using the work correctly of ridiculous examples of.
This but if you dive into this upon closer, examination
we see that fullongong looks a lot different from the
(27:33):
casual chigong group or even like a CrossFit. Club and
while we were prepping for, this, folks it became increasingly
difficult for us not to continually ask ourselves about, CrossFit
which got out of. Hand for a, second, THERE i
think we can agree CrossFit got a little out of hand.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Yeah oh it. Did AND i for one promise THAT
i will hunt down The CrossFit demons and aliens that
exist in the originating book somewhere That i've just never
seen were Writ.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
YEAH i did CrossFit for a little while years. AGO
i had like a a trainer. SITUATION i can tell
you from firsthand, experience the demons and aliens live in
those ten ninety x stretchy. Bands that's where that's, where
that's where that comes. From THAT p ninety X GA
t NINETY p Ninety Clemado. Climato but it was they
(28:23):
do sneak The christian stuff in very, subtly right when
you're getting the most, swollen and then all of a
sudden they sort of whisper some scripture in Your.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Wait, wait, wait wait WAIT i MAYBE i just have no.
Idea Is CrossFit like a religious organization or are kind Of.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah maybe it depends on the trainer.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Too, No i've always heard That CrossFit has sort of
some kind of religious.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
UNDERTONES i was.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Being COMPLETELY i was joking about hunting that, down but
Now i'm.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Serious Maybe i'm overthinking it.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Too there are Definitely Christian crossfits, organizations and like here's
an article here how Turning CrossFit into a religion made
its atheist Founder Greg glassman Rich oh?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Interesting, okay Huh So.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
CrossFit itself is the religion not necessarily a front for?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Religion?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah so when we go back To chigong And,
followngong what we see is that it isn't the same in, many,
many many. Ways and this is something that practitioners of
Following gong would agree. With there is a web of conspiracy.
Here it's tough to suss out the strings of truth
(29:39):
right in this. Morass there are allegations of everything From
oregon harvesting to cults to even front groups for intelligence.
Agencies so let's dive in deep. Breath here's where it gets. Crazy.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah china's state run media Outlet chinoa had a completely
different take on Why Follen gong was being. Banned they
claimed that The west was attempting to Make china look.
Bad they believed and argued, accordingly that The chinese government
banned foul And gong Because lee had broken numerous laws
(30:18):
was responsible for over a thousand, deaths mainly from essentially
coercing members into committing suicide or by not seeking medical,
treatment which is a part of this whole you, know
belief system that we'll get, into was threatening public safety
and because members had infiltrated The Communist party in.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Order to overthrow the.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Government that's a lot and it, sounds you, know like
the kind of high level. Conspiracies that's like we live
for things Like operations Snow. White sounds a lot less
like you, know just doing tai chi in the park
on A sunday.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Afternoon, right, Yeah and anyone listening may remember operations wherein
The church Of scientology or members a few members of
The church Of scientology attempted some.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Infiltration all, Right so NOW i can feel the shadow
of our legal, TEAM i. Know oh, Man so let
me how Did it's very careful with the writing on that.
One the official position of The church Of scientology is
That operation Snow white was not sanctioned by their organization
(31:29):
as a way to massively infiltrate the irs and then
blackmail the government in a crazy financial.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Scheme.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Ood several people disagree with that official, position including THE
Us Supreme, Court, Right, like that's what we could. Say
we said that, earlier, right there are people who. Disagree,
Uh so we Have mike. RENDERAN i, mean our ship
has sailed in that. Regard but but there is one
(31:58):
thing you know that you that they, said it's really
interesting here nol the idea of infiltration of the. Government
that was. True, yeah The chinese government was telling the
truth about this. One Following gong was all up in
the state's military and the security apparatus and the media
educational establishments as much as. Possible it's explicitly mentioned in
(32:24):
one Of lee's, Books Following. Gong he talks about putting
focus on getting support from state government, leaders like from these,
Officials and interestingly, enough if you read The english And
french translations of these, books those specific mentions have been
(32:45):
cut from the. Text see the past is. Changing but
in all, fairness to lead all fairness to the practitioners
Of Following, gong we have to point out seeking powerful
friends is not the same thing as plain a. Coup
you want to get like a a member of the
high ranking member of The Communist party on board With, Falungong,
(33:09):
well then maybe first it's because you think it's good for,
them you, know on a purely physical. Level and then maybe,
secondly like, hey this person could help us out with
a jam especially for being. Misrepresented we have someone on
our side who can, say here's the, truth and this
is not. Propaganda so it's not the same thing as it.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Cou it sounds a lot like The family to. Me
another episode we covered where Evangelical christianity was at least
making those friends right in high places and actively working
to increase just influence within those, realms not necessarily causing a.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Coup is that the episode where we got a little
bit lost trying to figure out what the menu for
the prayer breakfast.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
WAS i was just, THINKING i was, like why AM
i thinking about eggs right? Now is that massive prayer
breakfast that was such a like an influencer kind of
closed door situation that they essentially started.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
Correct it's always, pancakes.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Guys, YEAH i JUST i don't like all, RIGHT i
feel like a pancake breakfast is something that's cooler is
a phrase than actual? Thing like what makes it a
pancake breakfast instead of just like pancakes AND oj is?
There maybe maybe.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Eat two, pancakes you know WHAT i?
Speaker 5 (34:28):
Mean?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
LIKE i DO i need a?
Speaker 3 (34:30):
VARIETY i want like some sausage and some. Bacon i'm
not a huge. Pancakes you feel so much like dessert to.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Me look very, heavy you. Guys when you're a tax exempt,
organization you gotta keep costs super, low and pancake batter
is the way to.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Go.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
True it is the people's the people's.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Food you're going to call it the people's cake pan also?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
True also?
Speaker 1 (34:53):
True, yeah, yeah pancake opinions. ASIDE i just THINK i don't. Know,
also portions in THE us are so cartoon initially. Large
if you go eat, SOMEWHERE i, Mean i'm with you
guys in two or three silver dollar pancakes AND I
i have some other stuff going on on the. Plate
but this is Not this is not something THAT sinoi
or THE prc. Was, yes we're talking about too. Much they,
(35:17):
were they were, concerned you, know and they Thought western
media was And western governments were being complicit in supporting
what they saw as an increasingly subversive and perhaps even separatist. Organization,
today the members Of, ballongkong or the practitioners OF i
THINK i think the members of the organization prefer the term.
(35:39):
Practitioners the practitioners are often overtly political and overtly Anti.
China they want the, demise if not of the government Of,
china they want the demise of The Communist. Party and
if we're being completely objective, here you can see a
couple of different reasons for. This The chinese government may
argue that they're political beliefs are the reason this movement was,
(36:03):
Banned but we also have to, ask if we're being,
fair are the people who are being overtly political? Here
are they just reacting in an entirely reasonable way to
some extreme state level? Persecution you? Know is this an
exercise group or a? Cult that's a question that we're
(36:25):
going to try to explore together after a word from
our sponsor.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
And we're, back, Okay so before the, break we posed
the question what really is? This is a lot of
divisive talk surrounding The fall And.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Gong so what is?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
It it is a kind of anocious mindfulness meditative exercise
group or some sort of nefarious, cult or perhaps something in.
Between while the again state Sponsored chinese media Calls fellongonga,
Cult western media seemed very hesitant to do. So in, fact,
(37:04):
really like we talked about that nineteen ninety Nine time,
interview did give them a platform and treated them almost
with a lot of, deference and we got to ask ourselves.
Why some scholars argue that it was because of pressure
From fallongong, itself perhaps that religiousness we talked. About, still
there are some accounts and evidence showing recruitment tactics that
(37:25):
could be described as pretty sketchy at the very, least.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Cult like at the.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Most As Heather caven writes In fallongong and The, media
what can we? Believe the exercises quickly begin to take
a back seat to, larger ideologically driven belief. Systems here's
a quote on newcomer's second or third, visits they are
given scriptures Showing lee's rejection of those who simply do
(37:56):
the exercise part and not the other, stuff which we'll get.
Into when six months into the field, work a member
told me That Fello gong was not about doing the
exercises at, all AND i was not.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Surprised.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah So Heather kavan wrote this awesome paper where she
did this ethnographic STUDY i believe In New, zealand and she.
Was she was meeting up with members Of Followen kong
every day for a time and doing these exercises in the,
morning and she got they were very welcoming and she
(38:32):
got an increasingly intimate perspective of the day to day
actions of practitioners as well, as you, know some of
the larger things that they believed to be. True and
this got into ideas of like having, visions visions are very,
big and following gong having claravoyance moments or moments of by.
(38:55):
Location and then also there were sketchy things where she would,
ask like she did this pretty more than a, YEAR i,
think and there was somebody she was meeting every day
and she, said, hey what DO i call that woman
That i've been meeting with every? Day and somebody just
looked at her and was, like just call her the,
woman which is kind of a sketchy thing to. SAY
(39:18):
i don't, KNOW i don't. Know i'm an. Outsider but
this told her that there was a maybe to your
point in a little bit of bait and, switch kind
of like you're come for the, exercises stay for the
truth about the. Universe And i'm not being. DISMISSIVE i
mean that's kind of the process and those for people
who continue deeper into the belief. System Ex Fello gong
(39:38):
practitioners say that the beliefs and values are what might
be called surprisingly, conservative the forbidding of interracial, marriage the
condemnation of, homosexuality and to our earlier, point discouraging the
use of modern. Medicine for their, part Following gong officially
(39:59):
deny that this is. True so again we're in a
one side said, this one side said that. Situation but
if this is if we were to define this as a,
cult Which Follen goong emphatically says it is, not then
we would naturally find ourselves with a couple of questions
(40:20):
off the. Bat the first is this this observation cults need,
leaders so people are critics of this. Organization those who
Accuse phallongngong of being a cult say they do have a,
leader and that role is played by the, Founder Lee.
Honkshi so weird thing About Lee honkshi is that we
have conflicting stories about, him his, life his current, beliefs
(40:45):
his aims for the organization or aims for the. Movement
and the even weirder thing about this, is To matt's
earlier point about an information, war some of these reports
are coming from people who would be totally happy if
he never, existed aka in his. Government some of these
reports are coming from his, disciples and then some of
(41:06):
his conflicting reports are coming straight from him at different
times when he's talking to different, People like he's talking
A western, audience, right say Like i'm not a, god
don't try to make me a. God and then he's
talking to a domestic audience and he's, say my true
spiritual form is so huge that IF i came down,
here you, know in my true, form you would be
(41:27):
like standing and trying to gaze up past my big.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
Toe totally.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
God aka yeah, interesting wo.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Wow it's very. WEIRD i, mean and he in the
past Hasn't lee said that he's like Of jesus or
a savior or the person who is going to, yeah save, humanity. Right.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah he said that he's compared himself at times in
speeches to the Biblical Jesus, christ where he said, that you,
know lines Like christ has a sixteen carrot gold. PATH
i have a twenty four or twenty something carrot gold.
(42:09):
Path you, know we have to admit maybe we're maybe
we're losing some context in, translation but these like there's
a repeated pattern of this. Stuff he also says things
will be familiar to people who have had experience with exclusionary.
Organizations says that if you're a member Of Following, gong
(42:30):
you're superior to ordinary, people and this might be familiar
to longtime. Listeners also says you need to relinquish affection for,
kinsfolk love between a man and a, woman and affection for,
parents feelings and. Friendship you need to focus on the.
Path what was that guy we did episode On Benhito.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Marows wasn't he like in Like sedona or something like.
That he was in somewhere somewhere in Like New mexico
and he had this whole like kind of sweat lodge
tech bro cult, situation, careful, careful.
Speaker 4 (43:11):
Disgusting, YEAH i still get his.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Newsletters oh, boy. Interesting, well, no you're, Right, Ben and
it gets, weirder like he's not shy about, this and
it's it's even a little, inconsistent, right like when he's
gonna go big and talk about the big, toe you,
Know god situation or downplay and, say oh, no, No
(43:34):
i'm just a bit a humble meditation. Instructor i'm exaggerating
a little. Bit but in that time article he talks
a lot about being able to teach people to levitate
off of the, Ground and then also he talks about
how you shouldn't ever show these abilities to. Outsiders the
(43:54):
time reporter, says in your, Book Zan, falloon you talk
about people levitating off the, ground but say that they
should not show other.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
People why is?
Speaker 3 (44:02):
That and hely says it is the same principle That
western gods in paradise should not be seen by ordinary
mortals because they cannot understand its. Meaning and Then time
asks have you seen human beings levitate off the, ground
and he, RESPONDS i have known too.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Many can you describe any that you have, known to
Which lee, Responds.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
David copperfield he can, levitate and he did it during.
Performances not trying to rag on the guy too, hard
but very mixed messages here he's, saying you, KNOW i
can teach people to do. It it's something that's inherent
in this belief. System, ALSO i don't like the idea
of them showing anybody but the one he cites this
(44:42):
is An american illusionist where everyone knows.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
That he's not really.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Levitating very.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Unusual it may.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
Have just been a joke in some a form of a.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Joke who, Knows, yeah, Maybe and then Also this is
interesting because again we go back to the question of
not just, context but the question motivation of the. Sources
like the thing about there's an interesting, Example so we
talked a little bit about how there might have been
pressure From tholoungong that Influenced western media's portrayal of the. Group,
(45:18):
originally it reminds me of a lot Of Reverend moon and
The Washington, times when The moonies owned that there were
clear conflicts of interests that would come up over, time
just like Obviously sinoa has conflicts of interest because it's state,
media just like multiple organizations. Do it's more unusual to
(45:40):
be like a pro publica without as much of an editorial.
Bias SO i think we built an okay case to show.
That first, off a lot of statements from this guy
have been conflicting over time with earlier statements he's made
or with statements he goes on to make. Afterwards, secondly
there are some he's made that seemed pretty extraordinary and
(46:03):
that don't seem all too out of the realm of cult.
Leader but we're we're just we're telling you. Why some
people have argued that the other thing that keeps so
we're kind of ping ponging back and forth across what's happening.
Here here's another thing that's. Happening Following gong practitioners have
for years and years and years alleged that since gosh
(46:28):
more in two decades, now that since nineteen ninety, nine
maybe even a little, before they were being persecuted and
are being persecuted by The chinese. Government that is. True
that's the. Thing that's no one they're not making that.
Up after the, ban tens of thousands of people were,
arrested they were sent to labor camps without a, trial
(46:49):
and many of these people who have, survived who came
out of these said that they were. Tortured, again the
numbers may be. Exaggerated it's tough to get transparent numbers
of incarceration from The chinese, government and it's tough to
really and this is not a ding on. Them it's
(47:10):
tough to understand the credibility of numbers offered by an
organization like this on its own membership rates on what
happened to whom and, When just because they might Not
i'm not saying there's any necessarily any ulterior motive. Here
they may not have the capacity to keep that kind of,
(47:31):
accounting but the detainment was definitely. Real.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
Yeah so in The Wall Street, journal a journalist Named
Ian johnson documented his investigation into the repression that we're
talking about in a series that he, wrote which he
received A Pulitzer prize for part. Of and there's definitely
some of the strains going. On shinhoa in pretty, stark
(47:54):
if not very. Surprising as we discussed, contrasts depicted the
prisoners as being happy playing. Basketball we've talked about this
in the past episodes as, well eating amazing you, know
platters of food and all of, that with local police
stations acting as centers for them to receive counseling to
help these, poor you, know brainwashed souls essentially get an
(48:19):
education and BECOME i guess more acclimated or reintroduced into
traditional Civilized chinese. Society in, this you, know really supported
the narrative that the government was pushing of this being
a dangerous separatist. Cult, however practitioners Of Fallo gong described
(48:39):
members being treated much much, differently described them being hung
by their ankles upside down for long periods of, time
hit with like cattle prodt type implements or stun, guns.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Actually cut or pierced.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
With bamboo, sticks beaten and, raped and kept in tiny
any spaces where they can't even move for days at a,
time prohibited from using the restroom facilities for long periods of,
time showing brutal imagery displayed throughout these, facilities things like police.
Brutality and often in some of these public demonstrations that
(49:17):
they would, do they would re enact historical torture scenes
in alarming and disturbing.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Ways theater is a, weapon, Right it's a real, thing
and it can be a powerful. Thing there's an interesting
and somewhat troubling interpretation of this. Persecution this persecution is
to a degree, aspirational as much AS i hate to say.
(49:46):
It within the, movement there's this one speech Where lee
talks about stepping. Forward stepping forward is a euphemism referring
to a series of tests that partitioners must pass to
gain entry into his version or his realization of heaven
or paradise or.
Speaker 4 (50:07):
Enlightenment going up the, ladder crossing the, bridge stepping. Forward,
okay do.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
You want to get a seed? Reference, so, so, yeah
here's how he explained. It he said he had only
planned enlightenment for a limited number Of Followen gong, members
but with the increasing amount of practitioners, again they might
be inflating the numbers, here and with of course the
eminent end of the, world he had to start weeding
(50:36):
people out quick fast and in a. Hurry and so
he said that if you defend the following long to
the point where you are, imprisoned you are, detained you are,
tortured then your bad karma is burned, off and this
assures you a space in. Paradise practitioners must not recant their,
(50:57):
faith even if their retre is, insincere even, if like
we proved in earlier episodes on, torture you're just saying
whatever you think people want to hear so that they'll
stop pulling out your fingernails or shocking your testicles or
what have. You he, Says, look even if you fake Recanting,
follongong you're a terrible. Person and then he goes, on
(51:20):
think about. This he goes one step further and heavily
implies that he purposefully orchestrated the, torture that it was
all under his control the whole, time because he needed
to expose these weak willed, folks and he refers to
these folks who recant under torture as quote malignant. Tumors
(51:41):
so the torture is, real but the interpretation of it
and the degree to which it's real is still up
for debate because there's just not a unbiased source, here,
Really and it's, tough you, know like these Are Wall
street journal these are top notch, journalists and they're having
a tough time get cutting through the propaganda and cutting
(52:02):
through the, purposeful the purposely deceptive tactics of the. Government
and we have to go to one other, thing which
is probably the thing people a lot of people in
The west probably first heard Of Followen gong because of,
this and we've covered it in both video and audio
in the. Past organ harvesting the quote unquote red, market.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
Yep and this is, again as you, Said, ben this
is one of the things that brings a lot of
people into the conversation because it's such a sensational concept
that The chinese government is somehow or for some reason
harvesting organs directly From fallongong. Practitioners and this is something
that is alleged and it's usually it's usually organs being
(52:49):
taken from detainees people who are already detained by the.
Government at least that's what. Said in twenty, nineteen an
expert panel of independent researchers said they heard clear evidence
that organ harvesting had taken place over at least twenty years.
Speaker 1 (53:06):
Wow directly tied to nineteen ninety NINE, yep when they
were declared. Illegal if you look at the timeline questions
about the bias of this, tribunal The China, tribunal it
was set up by a group called The International coalition
to And Transplant abuse In, China so it definitely starts
(53:29):
from assuming this is happening and they just want to
prove it's. There this panel said it was beyond a
doubt a fact that there had been force art organ,
harvesting not just because of one like crooked doctor or
one crooked, warden which this is very, important but they
said it was happening on a systemic. Scale states. Supported
(53:52):
and here's the worst. Part beijing has repeatedly denied these.
Accusations they did not start With Followen. Gong to be very,
clear as we talked about, earlier this is an ongoing,
thing or this was an ongoing thing at the, time
BUT i want to draw special attention to their reasoning,
here their support of their claim that they didn't do.
(54:15):
This they you, guys they literally, said, no we don't
forcibly take organs from people as a bunch Of western.
Propaganda you, KNOW i, mean For pete's, sake fellow, humans
we stopped taking organs from executed prisoners way back in twenty.
Fifteen and that was like four years. Ago you guys
(54:38):
are living in the.
Speaker 4 (54:39):
Past it's so twenty. Fifteen come, on that's.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Just like, Okay, like, Imagine i'm not gonna say somebody
burned a, barn but imagine LIKE i was standing right
next to just like the old Dre eminem, Song i'm
standing right next to a burning barn in this, instant
And i've got A i've got a handful of, matches
a can full of, gas and people are, like, hey,
(55:04):
dude did you burn this? Barn i'm, like, what that's.
CRAZY i haven't burned barnes for fun since twenty. Fifteen
you guys are, wild and that's.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
Unfair oh but like you see What i'm, Saying, no, Totally.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
I'm saying it's right to be.
Speaker 4 (55:20):
Suspicious it is right to be suspicious and it's also
just something to point out. Here we talked about the
demonstrations that Felon gung practitioners have done showing the police,
brutality the. Torture one of the things that they harp,
on or at least have in the, past is this bread,
market and they will go through the motions of having
(55:40):
a detainee like not really but having their organs ripped
out in a very gory fashion in a demonstration in
front of a, building a government building or.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Something and then this leads us to maybe one of
the biggest things we need to note. Here the information
war that started in the nineties. Continues it's been going
on for. Decades there's something we mentioned a little. Earlier
we've talked a lot about this off ahead coreaboration for this.
Episode in THE, us there is this amazing traveling show
(56:12):
Called Shen. Yung we talked we talked about, THIS i
think last week or, so like we always wanted to.
GO i definitely always wanted to. Go felt the tickets
were a little, pricey but it is in fact associated
with and backed By. Ballungngong, visually it's a stunning.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Show M.
Speaker 3 (56:30):
H it's the kind of thing, too where it's, LIKE
i don't know where this budget is coming. From with
the marketing blitz behind this show is out of. CONTROL
a lot of it's just kind of like street team
type situations where you'll, see you, know flyers for it
at every restaurant and coffee shop and you, know juice
bar in, town but they have billboards, everywhere and like
(56:51):
In New York city, especially a friend of mine was
saying how he ended up in a cab or a
lift or something that was driven by very Clearly, fallongong you,
know kind of hardliner and there were even Shun yuan
advertisements within the, cab and he had like stacks Of
fallongong pamphlets as. Well it's almost like a modern Day
(57:13):
Hari krishna. Thing remember HOW i used to see The
Hari krishna's at the airport passing out their pamphlets and.
Stuff this is sort of like that to.
Speaker 4 (57:20):
Me oh, yeah it makes itself. Known so let's talk
about exactly what we're seeing here in this beautifully choreographed,
dance interpretive dance and cultural exchange at Shn. Yun what
do you?
Speaker 1 (57:33):
See, yeah so you see it's heavily rooted in Traditional chinese.
Culture so we'll see you'll see, songs you'll see intricate
choreography and dance. Numbers you'll also see a emittedly transparent
narrative and overall message which includes the re enactment of
(57:54):
some of those some of those acts of, persecution also
includes you, know very pro fallungong Pro shenyun, message and
it talks about the evils of. Persecution like it's clearly
it's clearly a show with something to say beyond witness
(58:15):
this ancient tradition Of chinese.
Speaker 4 (58:17):
Dance, yeah and you can read a lot about Shen.
Yun one thing you can you can hear about at
least is The Upstate New york training facility where Shen
YUN i guess Fellon gong practitioners or Just shnyun dancers
and performers go and learn really interesting.
Speaker 3 (58:37):
STUFF i mean to, me it's it's like it has
to have a massive base of, operations, right BECAUSE i
mean it's got to be hundreds and hundreds of individuals
that are performing in these various iterations of this, show,
RIGHT i, mean like and, like so you're saying there's
a training facility almost like you think of For Circo.
Speaker 4 (58:55):
Sole, yeah it's it is called The Fai Shian, academy
and it's In middleton Or, Middletown New.
Speaker 1 (59:04):
York and you, know post, pandemic if you depend on
where you, live it's pretty easy for you to see
this show when it comes into talent because it's you,
know it used to travel a lot before BEFORE covid
locked this. Down one THING i noticed is it seemed
like A Shin young show was always on the. Way
(59:24):
it just. Left it's definitely a business and just.
Speaker 4 (59:27):
Quick shout out To The New yorker And Gia, TOLENTINO
i think that's her. NAME a twenty nineteen article you
can read Called stepping into The, uncanny unsettling world Of
shenyin just it describes to you exactly what you.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
See and let's stick with The New York. Times let's
also stick with allegations of front companies Because followongong has
a success story that may be familiar to a lot
of people in THE, us though you may not know
the full. Story it's a big conspiratorial great journalist over
At New York Time times Named Kevin rose wrote this
(01:00:03):
piece on a newspaper Called The Epoch times Epocch.
Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
That sounds so. Familiar, okay all, Right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
So for, years The Epoch times was a kind of,
small low budget newspaper that was against the government Of.
China and you would if you're walking around the corners
of Some New york, neighborhoods you would you would have
this thing handed out for free to. You people like free.
Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Stuff it's a smart.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Strategy but in around twenty sixteen twenty seventeen or, so
the paper made a couple of changes that turned it
into one of the country's most powerful digital, platforms most
powerful digital. PUBLISHERS i should. Say they became a world
class source of right wing information by betting the farm On.
(01:00:51):
FACEBOOK i don't know WHY i have so many farm analogies, today. Guys,
Sorry but so they like When Donald trump came forward
to become, president to become a presidential, candidate all this,
stuff they got super on board and they embraced The
trump presidency most, likely if you had to, guess because
(01:01:13):
of his strong Anti china stance at the. Time more
than anything. Else it was just like an enemy of
my enemy kind of. THING i, guess how with my
pick of my.
Speaker 4 (01:01:22):
Chicken.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Whatever so the coverage that they had OF us politics
beforehand was very much like, neutral also ran straight up
reporting right like this bill, passes this bill doesn't. Pass
this person is blah blah blah Of New. York but
then it became super partisan and in twenty. Twenty this
article was written In november twenty. Twenty rose reports that
(01:01:46):
The Epic times and its affiliates are a force in
right wing, media with tens of millions of social media
followers spread across dozens of, pages and they have an
online audience that rivals the audiences Of The Daily call And.
Breitbart since twenty, seventeen they had been running some pretty interesting,
(01:02:10):
experiments and you can also get a taste of the
kind of stuff they. Cover they cover real world, events
they cover international news an Anti china. Slant but then they,
also you, know when they're on social, media which very
adept at according To, rose they're posting stuff about like
anti vaccine screen. Screeds where did the coronavirus really come?
(01:02:34):
From and why doesn't THE prc want you to? Know
it was made to lab on purpose by? Them because they're?
Evil that's the whole. Headline why Is Bill gates directing
the pandemic what's up with This jewish mob that controls the?
World like that's the kind of stuff they're.
Speaker 4 (01:02:48):
Writing and if you listen to those headlines and those,
topics it sounds very similar to the stuff you've probably
seen floating around On.
Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Facebook AND i think this is an important. Thing it's
a very strange turn of. Events this is started as
like a spiritual movement or an exercise. Group how did
it become a media? Powerhouse how did it become you,
know associated with this with this traveling show that we
want to see that that almost weaponizes? Theater what what's
(01:03:18):
the true story Of Lee Hong? Shi and at the
very end of today's, show we have to advance the
even crazier. Stuff i'm SURE i can't be the only
person wondering is following along an asset of a foreign intelligence?
Agency it's not out of the. Question it's that's the.
Thing no hard proof of this has come to. Light
(01:03:38):
please send us some if you have. Some but of
course people are wondering is THE cia? Involved because this
is this is like TEXTBOOK. Cia you get a you
get a dissident group that may be disruptive to the status,
quo and, boom you got some independent freedom. Fighters you
got a bunch of college students who just happened to
overthrow a government because they believe in, uh in these
(01:04:02):
VERY us friendly, ideals and they just somehow got some.
Guns like that's that's the. Thing, uh that's why people
are asking. This And foal And gong has not done
like some kind of armed attack on A chinese building
at this. Point but people are asking these questions primarily
because The west has such a terrible track record and
(01:04:24):
terrible precedent for interfering and fares this. Way and, also
these are human. Beings falanngong people are human. BEINGS i
hope it's not a hot take that human beings shouldn't be, tortured.
Speaker 4 (01:04:35):
Kidnapped, nope that is a very cool.
Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Take cool takes come for the hot, one stay for
the cool and stuff they want you to. Know but
there's one there's another. POINT i think one of us
mentioned this. Earlier there's another big. Mystery where is all
the money coming from that's powering these? Initiatives is this
really all coming from like subscriptions to things by The
(01:05:00):
Epoch media group or checking sales for Shn. YUDEN i,
MEAN i don't know this is this is. Big we
want To we want to know what you guys.
Speaker 4 (01:05:10):
Think, yeah if you have any information on the tithing
process or like donation process or membership that, it you,
know whatever it takes to stay within the, Organization if
you have info on, that we'd love to hear, it
because it's difficult to find anything transparent coming out of
the organization or anything that you could believe coming out
of an opposition. Writer so, yeah please write to us about.
Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
That, YEAH i just keep like. Matching you're you're trying
to decide if you should eat a, sandwich and there's
one person left saying this is the best sandwich. Ever
if you don't eat, it you're going to, Die and
then there's a person on the other side of the
table saying this is the. Worst it doesn't even qualify as.
Food if you do eat, it you'll die in a,
(01:05:53):
slow agonizing way in A chinese prison like this is
very intense and it's it's tough to figure out the.
Truth BUT i think There's i'm going to, SAY i
think there's some sketchy stuff going. On no matter how
you slice, it there's. Something there's something they don't want
you to. Know multiple instances of. It please let us
(01:06:15):
know if you have, Experience please let us know what
you think the future of this organization or these kinds
of organizations will be and what it can tell us
about the world. Today we try to be easy to
find on The.
Speaker 4 (01:06:28):
Internet, yeah you can find us On facebook And. Twitter
we are conspiracy stuff On instagram where a conspiracy stuff.
Show if you do Use, facebook head on over To
here's where it Gets. Crazy that is the page where
you can hang out with all the other conspiracy realists
who are listening right, now who want to talk with
you and comment and be, nice and they will be
nice and they'll be, cool or else our awesome mods
(01:06:50):
will take care of.
Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
Them you can also find us all over the internet
in other. Places does the Usual facebook spots where we're
conspiracy stuff or conspiracy stuff show On. Instagram you can
also give us a telephone call at one eight three THREE.
Stdwytk once you hear the sound Of ben's chime like vocal,
intonations leave a. Voicemail try to keep it three. Minutes
(01:07:14):
they cut off at. Three do us a solid don't
like spam us with like three or six, Messages try to,
like you, know practice, brevity get your story in in
one and you might hear yourself featured on one of
our weekly listener mail. Episodes but please do let us
know if it's okay to use your, voice why you'd
like us to call, you or if you prefer to remain,
anonymous and.
Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Feel feel free to give us a rating on your
podscraper of choice should the spirit move you. So if
none of that quite gives you the, truth, compassion and
forbearance you are looking, for there's one other way to
reach out to. Us you can email us directly where we.
Speaker 4 (01:07:47):
Are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot. Com stuff They Don't want
(01:08:09):
you To know is a production Of. iHeartRadio for more
podcasts From, iHeartRadio visit The iHeartRadio, App Apple, podcasts or
wherever you listen to your favorite, shows
Folks, if you live in the United States, and if
you've ever been to a big city, you have doubtlessly
seen a lot of flyers. One of those flyers is
inevitably going to be for a performance called Shen.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yun n on the Moon Baby.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Yeah, this is a This one gets a special shout
out to a lot of our friends in the Chinese diaspora,
notably our good friend and phenomenal artist jun Yi Leo,
who actually Nola and I collect some of Juni's art.
We can't say enough good about it. We have not
asked Junii about the parents of shen Yun, an organization
(00:40):
called Following Gong, which is a religious movement to its
proponents and champions, a cult to its critics, and a
terrorist organization to the government of China. Ya.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
He kind of nailed it there, ben I, dude, just
want to point I was just talking to my girlfriend
about shen Yun the other night and how ubiquitous their
marketing is and how it's just as ubiquitous is in
Atlanta as it is your New York city, And she
pointed out to me that there are quite a few
Shinyan parody troops doing shows and like drag shows revolving
around kind of campy parodies of the old China before
(01:14):
communism theme that Shinyun tends to promote.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Is this a thing? Can you guys recall? Is this
the thing that South Park has covered?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I think they must have in some way, least in
terms of the ubiquity of the advertising, but I don't
know if they did a full episode. But it's so
meme worthy, Like that's why I say shenyuon on the Moon.
I think I saw a meme where it was like
a billboard of Shenyun like on you know, just the
surface of Mars or something.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I'm just going back through the official Shenyun dot org
website and looking at this huge write up they have
with titles within this article like why the CCP is
after us? It goes over their beliefs, it goes over
things that the Chinese Communist Party has officially done to
like thwart them from being able to perform things like that.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Well, because again, like we'll talk about this in the episode,
but their big thing is promoting you know a certain
part of Chinese cultural history that does not involve communism,
which I think is real, is a real bone of
contention with the communist regime, saying that they're in some way,
you know, disrespecting the current, you know, state of affairs.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Is that is that right, Ben?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, Yeah, you're absolutely on the money there in oels.
Since nineteen ninety nine, the government of China has made concerted,
serious efforts to suppress this movement, the spiritual practice, whether
you call it Fallunnglong or following Daffa. And there have
been accusations of very evil things up to an including
oregon harvesting. So we recorded this back in twenty twenty one.
(02:48):
We would love to hear your thoughts, especially if you
yourself have ever attended a shen Yun performance. Let's roll the.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
Tape from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History
is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now
or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
A production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul. Mission control decands, most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. We'll started a weird but very
human direction here. Who hasn't amongst us in the audience
today felt lost at one point or another. Think about it,
(03:51):
washing the dishes, you're working, maybe on a repetitive job,
or you're stuck in traffic. You heard the same song
three times, You're walking up the street, the same path
you always take, and it hits you all the suddenly.
What does it all mean? Why are we even here?
What's the point? Is existence? Just like a check mark
participation grade?
Speaker 4 (04:11):
Yes, yes, yes, all of those?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Okay, great, me too.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
That's a bleak, fellas that a bleak?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Oh no, you haven't hit that yet?
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Oh god, yes, are you kidding me? I thought I
use my GPS when I go down the street to
the store. I mean, okay, that's a different kind of loss.
But absolutely, of course, I think we've all been there.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
And this existential crisis is one of the great unifiers,
I would argue of the human species. It draws a
lot of people to structured belief systems, religions at any type,
humanitarian work, you know, secular stuff too, even self improvement
on a small scale, like hey, I'm going to exercise more,
I'm going to take up meditation, I might get a
(04:52):
new hobby. Heck, I'll take that improv class. These are
all answers to, you know, the scary questions of mortality
and meaning, and there is no shortage of individuals or
organizations that are more than willing to give the loss
and the troubled a feeling of serenity, fulfillment, and purpose.
(05:12):
This brings us to today's episode, the winding mysterious and
at times troubling story of something known as the Falloun Gong.
In English, this literal translation would be something like law
will practice, but it's a tricky thing to translate into English,
so for now we're just going to say following Gong,
(05:33):
So breathe deep. Here are the facts.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
So following Gong is also known as follown Dafa, and
if you look at some of the official websites, you
will see following Dafa a lot. It describes itself as
a spiritual practice, as many has been just described earlier.
It's rooted in Buddhist tradition and it consists of two
primary components that feel pretty good. But the first one
(06:01):
is self improvement through the study of teachings, and like
many organizations, fallen Gong Fellendolpha has its own set of
books and writings and teachings, and these are mainly about
the qualities of the universe, the underlying stuff, the stuff
that is that makes up existence, you and me, and
(06:22):
the connection to everything, Truth, compassion, and forbearance. If you
go on their website, it says very specifically truth, compassion, forbearance.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
The second component is going to be pretty I would
say pretty familiar to a lot of us, and that
is a gentle exercise and meditation. By gentle exercise we
mean what is sometimes called low impact exercise. So this
is not CrossFit push yourself past your limits stuff. This
is stretchy, this is slow, This is meditative. This is
(06:56):
not meant to break your bones. According to all the
sources you can look at, including official Following Gong sources,
it was developed by a guy named Li hong Shi.
He says that he was the recipient of teachings from
more than twenty masters Buddhism and Chigong, from which Followungong
(07:20):
is descended. He tested this. According to him, he tested
this practice this system out with several followers aka disciples
first and then eventually brought it public in May of
nineteen ninety two, so this is already we know this
is a very new religion, even if the claims about
(07:43):
its ancient roots are true. Chikong is We talked about
this earlier, I think in an episode called what is Chi?
But chigong is primarily composed of these frankly amazing breathing exercises.
But Lee added something else to the mix. He added
(08:03):
stories in here, accounts, anecdotes, a world full of fantastical things,
and a world with hints of a forthcoming apocalypse, and
his books became bestsellers. I don't want to poison the
well here, but some of this path has you know,
(08:25):
not for nothing have outside observers said. This bears some
similarities with other leaders of movements like l. Ron Hubbard,
who also also wrote extensively. But this was accepted by
the government of China. It was accepted by the Chigong
bodies right, because there are many Chigong movements, so the
(08:48):
Chinese National Chigong Scientific Research Association in that same time
period of nineteen ninety two, they also said, okay, yeah,
we dig it, you know what I mean, full speed ahead.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Ben, Ben, Can we just really quickly hit on those
two books?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, totally. The first two were Schwan Falung and Fallun Gong.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
These are kind of primers to the philosophy. Here is
what we're doing based on what I learned. Here is
the goal of what we're doing, you know what I mean?
Filled with again, filled with stories that did not ordinarily
occur in previous previous traditions of this sort.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Oh yeah, And I just want to go back to
your el Ron Hubbard comparison here. It's interesting because in
Eleron's writings he kind of held off on the aliens
and the the stuff that went beyond some of the
self healing.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
When you paid your way in far enough. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
But but in these books, it's just right there in
front of you as soon as you start getting into
the materials. I just I found that to be interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, Yeah, there's I guess you would say a little
more transparency in that regard. But whatever you feel about
those things, we want to be very clear here, we
ourselves are not following gong practitioners. Although I think all
of us have done things like meditation and mindful breathing
and yoga, this is a different thing. And no matter
(10:24):
how you feel about the claims that Lee makes no
matter how you feel about the practices of the organization
in terms of exercise and philosophy, there's no arguing this.
Those books were instant bestsellers, and people across the country
of China loved this idea, loved this concept, and Lee
(10:45):
started making public demonstrations of his of his perceived abilities,
which also ties in a little bit to our episodes
on faith healing and laying on of hands.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Okay, so back to the timeline.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
In December of nineteen ninety two, Lee hung z did
his very first public demonstration of his abilities at the
nineteen ninety two Oriental Health Expo in Beijing. Apparently he
caused a paralyzed and wheelchair bound man to walk, destroyed
gall and kidney stones within another individual, and cured difficult,
(11:20):
quote difficult and complex illnesses of all kinds. So needless
to say, he made quite a splash, and the director
of the fair declared, is like you, you won the fair.
He declared that Fallon Gong was the star cultivation system.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Oh wow, what does that even mean?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Like cultivating like the stars from the Uni from the galaxy.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
Mmm.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I took it as a best in show, best in show,
but still that's very I love the.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Turn of phrase. Let's leave it there to me. It
really is like you're, you know, the brightest shining boy
in the room.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Well, as Ben said there the laying on of hands
episode that we did, I think everyone can hear the
similarity there. And you know we we weren't there in
nineteen ninety two. We can't tell you exactly what happened,
you know, or if there were any plants in the audience,
but if those things were true, they would be miracles.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Well I was you know, you guys know my schedule.
I was busy. I didn't get over there. Yeah, but
I heard good things.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Yeah, I was nine. I think in doing something with
a Nintendo pretty sure.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I don't think I should say where I was. In
December of nineteen ninety three, at the nineteen ninety three Expo,
Lee was given to awards and this is, you know,
the second iteration of his appearance there. He got the
Award for Advancing Boundary Science and the Chigong Master Most
(12:53):
Acclaimed by the Masses. So that's like the no, and
I am not dismissing this at all, just for an
analog or a comparison. This is a lot like saying
you got the Audience Appreciation Award. Yes, you know what
I mean, people like you the most. So we started
giving classes all over the country in the ways of
(13:15):
this philosophy throughout the early to mid nineties, and for
a while, as we mentioned, this enjoyed a great deal
of domestic fame as well as what appeared to be
somewhere between the open support of the Chinese government to
the tacit support to at the very least toleration of it. Right, Like,
(13:38):
they're not hurting anyone, they're not violating our unwritten law,
don't mess with the money, let them go stretch in
the park exactly.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
And in a way, it's kind of a nice little
cultural at least information export, right, It's an interesting thing.
It's a cool little peace that we can share. And wow,
we've got this. I don't I want to say miracle worker,
but we've got someone with essentially supernatural powers that practices
(14:10):
in China. Cool, enjoy, be healthy, all o kod.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah, this goes internationals soon after. Like, when you think
about the spread of this movement, I have to see
it's impressive. You know, a few decades later people would
call this kind of growth viral instead of exponential. Yeah,
by nineteen nineteen ninety five or so, Lea is spreading
(14:38):
his message past the borders of China. He's lecturing in
Paris and Stockholm. He's lecturing in Sydney, in Houston, Texas,
which seemed a weird draw, but these are the facts,
and New York City in nineteen ninety six. But while
he's out speaking abroad and spending a less and less
time in China, things aren't going so well on the
(15:03):
home front, are.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
They No, the tide was turning inside of China while
he was gone, because in nineteen ninety five, the organization
fell and Gong left the one that it had originally joined,
the Key Goong Scientific Research Association, which you know could
or could not be a big deal, but it does
mean they're going independent, right, It means they're gaining power
(15:28):
in some way, and the Chinese government started to see
them as essentially a threat. And it's really because they
were growing so exponentially and so quickly, and some of
these spiritual beliefs, the religious teachings that were in those books,
they were going a little bit against what would be
considered traditional or at least the party line of what
(15:50):
the party wanted its citizens to be thinking about, believing in,
and ultimately they feared that this thing would grow so
big it would be threat because it was independent of
a lot of those internal institutions.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, and you know this doesn't come from nowhere or
necessarily uninformed paranoia. There is a long history in this
area of the world, going back to the dynasty days
in China, of the governing bodies having to actively and
aggressively work against the possibility of domestic descent. In a way,
(16:28):
the government at the time was reacting to what they
saw the president as the precedent set by earlier domestic unrest.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
What is it that you think about this religion and
this movement that caused it to catch on so much.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
It's just very appealing. I think if you look on
the face of it, it's extremely appealing. You don't have
to work too hard. It's mostly meditative and it seems
to have a kindness on the front. And we're going
to talk a little bit more about some of the
ways some of the ways the ideas are spread and
why they seem, especially when you bring in the persecution
(17:03):
angle that we're going to get to why it seems
like something you'd want to join to fight for.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
And the majority of from what we understand, the majority
of Followngngong members are recruited by members of their biological families,
So there is a furthering and a deepening of the
sense of community in this endeavor, and community, from what
I understand, is the thing that people like. It's true,
(17:31):
people dig it. So as you said, the tides turning,
the tides turning against the practitioners of Followungong because it's
seen as a threat to the status quo. We know
that sometime in this somewhere in this time period, members
(17:52):
of Following Gong started becoming active online. There were early
adopters of the Internet, but it's difficult to know exactly
when this occurred because like the rators in Neil Stevenson's Anathem,
they spend a lot of time changing the past or
they A more diplomatic way would be to say, and
(18:13):
I mean both the Chinese government and some factions of
Following Gong they carefully edit and curate old material from
their websites, so it's tough to know some of the
specifics of timelines here. But they didn't take this line down,
They got mad, and the practitioners started protesting outside of
(18:34):
various media outlets in China that they've if they felt
those outlets were misrepresenting the goals of Followungong and the
lives and aims of the practitioners. Basically say, you know,
stop being evil. That's it, that's not like on the
face of it, that's that's a cool thing, not to
(18:55):
be to be evil. Google once did that.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
No longer does I remember those days.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
It's no longer their motto, right, But also, don't be evil,
way different from be good?
Speaker 4 (19:08):
Yeah, very Imma.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
We thought that was a weird one.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Was it like sort of like a guiding principle sort
of a reminder to themselves to like do a good
job with the power that you've been you've given yourselves.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
That's a weird one. I always thought that was very strange.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
So this is nineteen nine, like we've led up to
ninety six, right, that's when they're doing their protesting. Then
the next year, as pressure is mounting from the party
within China, Lee he ends up getting out of China
And where does he head? New York City?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Okay, yeah, because it wasn't he wasn't he wasn't he
beginning to be branded as a dissident already?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, four years before.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Uh yeah, I was going to say, is you know,
just picture Lee somewhere and he's been to New York
before at this point, and he says, hey, kid, you
can make it here, you could make it anywhere. And
then he has that whole sitcom moment. Yeah he does.
He does go to New York. You know, something's in
the wind, I would imagine. And let's pause here, we've
(20:12):
got one. We're waiting for the other shoe to drop.
So let's let's hear from our sponsors who may not
be Fellongong today.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Maybe we don't know it's it's probably not Felling Gong,
but it is shn yin.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Uh spoilers, We'll be back to watch the hammer fall.
Fast forward nineteen ninety nine, there's a massive protest against
the government of China on the part of the Ballongngong.
(20:49):
Shortly after that protest, the PRC begins a nationwide crackdown
and they go ham there's this huge propaganda push there,
aim is to eradicate the following gong. How serious are
they about this? Well, they make a new security agency
whose entire job is to eliminate Following Gong. It's called
(21:12):
the six' Ten. Office it started In june of nineteen ninety.
Nine to describe some of the stuff that the government
was doing against this. Organization they they were bulldozing educational,
tapes you know WHAT i. Mean they were pulling all
the stuff they could off the internet if. Possible they
(21:34):
were publicly denouncing any members if it got to the
point where, like depending on your, job it might be
dangerous for your first year employment, status uh to be
a member Of Following, gong and then soon after it
maybe dangerous for your personal. Freedom they also Blocked oh
(21:54):
they didn't just Block Following gong, websites they blocked websites
from other. Places and there were a few countries that Mentioned.
Follongong they were, like, eh, SORRY i know your blog
is mainly about your backpacking travels Through Southeast, asia but
you mentioned the wrong, Organization so now your whole website
is shut down for one point three billion.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
People.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Wow so imagine you start as an exercise group and
the next thing you, know you're in a full on
information war with one of the world's most powerful, countries
a country that's also becoming one of the world's leaders
in this kind of asymmetrical. Warfare this Gets david And
goliath pretty. Quickly if the story so far is.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
True and this is a good time to bring this.
Up Maybe ben in our research for this, episode And,
ben you pointed this out AND i also noticed, it
and know, What i'm sure you did. Too, really what
you find on The, internet save for a few mostly objective,
writers is information that is extremely Pro Fello gong or
(22:57):
extremely Anti Fellan.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Goong, well even The american media for quite some time
was very Pro Fello, gong it would, seem because they
sort of acted as this like buffer against like the you,
know the distrustfulness that is pretty common around Like chinese information,
control and they sort of represented almost this, like you,
know example of the heavy handedness of The chinese. Government in,
(23:22):
fact there's an interview with the founder Of Fallong gong
In time magazine in nineteen ninety. Nine SO i, mean in,
general The american press was pretty pretty kind to them
as an.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Organization THE us would enter this information war later for
motivations of its. OWN i suspect motivations of its, Own
but Maybe i'm being a. Jerk so back in ninety,
nine same year as that, time interview Following gong becomes
illegal In. China, however the horse of dissidents has left
(23:56):
the proverbial. Barn the followers are widespread in an other
thing that maybe THE prc didn't count. On these followers
are tremendously media. Savvy REMEMBER i said they were earlier
adopters of things like The internet and emerging. Technology so
in the years since being declared a quote heretical organization
(24:16):
that threatens social, stability they have dispatched thousands upon thousands
of press, releases these staged live events and, protests things
that are purposely and beautifully designed to gather headlines to
get international eyes on the. Story they've also kept a
(24:37):
very strong internet. Presence you can check out some of
their official official territories online. Now they also became increasingly,
litigious and they would slap people with a defamation lawsuit
if they published something saying saying stuff that to us
might even seem. Innocuous you, know there was still there
(24:59):
was try to bring the hammer down the way that
The chinese government was bringing the hammer down on. Them
and like we alluded to just a few minutes, ago
Following gong adherents for a very long time were treated
in an extraordinarily kind way by The western. Press they
love This david And goliath. Story they also sometimes supported
(25:23):
the group's religious or political. Agendas as you can, Imagine
Following gong becomes very strongly Anti chinese, government and when
it broke in The, west when THE us and In
europe started entering, this you would see a lot of
reports from politicians and journalists who were ridiculing The chinese
(25:46):
government and they were, Saying, wow These communist leaders are so, paranoid,
aka they know their ideas are so bad that they're
going to treat this group of quote exercising grannies like countert.
Terrorists and they all had a good laugh about that
right in the in the news cycle of the. Time
(26:07):
and they got some facts wrong while they were doing.
It they got, like they got one big fact very much.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Wrong that's.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Right western sources originally had claimed that THE prc was
reacting to popularity. Alone they argued that The Communist party
had sixty to seventy million, members But fellongong had one hundred,
million and this did not seem to be the. Case
multiple scholars agreed that the Fellan gong only had about
(26:34):
two to ten million practitioners at that. Time, also why
weren't Other remember this is all a product of a larger,
movement the Key gong. Movement why weren't other practitioners of
those techniques band?
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Right there Were, again there are Multiple there are multiple
groups that are descended from this ancient tradition of mindfulness
and exercise and, meditation and they seem to be just.
Fine nothing wrong with those. Folks, sadly as any longtime
listener of this show, knows it is the opposite of
(27:11):
unusual for world governments to repress movements they see as
dangerous to the status. Quo on so many, levels there's an,
abundance a, plethora using the work correctly of ridiculous examples of.
This but if you dive into this upon closer, examination
we see that fullongong looks a lot different from the
(27:33):
casual chigong group or even like a CrossFit. Club and
while we were prepping for, this, folks it became increasingly
difficult for us not to continually ask ourselves about, CrossFit
which got out of. Hand for a, second, THERE i
think we can agree CrossFit got a little out of hand.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Yeah oh it. Did AND i for one promise THAT
i will hunt down The CrossFit demons and aliens that
exist in the originating book somewhere That i've just never
seen were Writ.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
YEAH i did CrossFit for a little while years. AGO
i had like a a trainer. SITUATION i can tell
you from firsthand, experience the demons and aliens live in
those ten ninety x stretchy. Bands that's where that's, where
that's where that comes. From THAT p ninety X GA
t NINETY p Ninety Clemado. Climato but it was they
(28:23):
do sneak The christian stuff in very, subtly right when
you're getting the most, swollen and then all of a
sudden they sort of whisper some scripture in Your.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Wait, wait, wait wait WAIT i MAYBE i just have no.
Idea Is CrossFit like a religious organization or are kind Of.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah maybe it depends on the trainer.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Too, No i've always heard That CrossFit has sort of
some kind of religious.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
UNDERTONES i was.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Being COMPLETELY i was joking about hunting that, down but
Now i'm.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Serious Maybe i'm overthinking it.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Too there are Definitely Christian crossfits, organizations and like here's
an article here how Turning CrossFit into a religion made
its atheist Founder Greg glassman Rich oh?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Interesting, okay Huh So.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
CrossFit itself is the religion not necessarily a front for?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Religion?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah so when we go back To chigong And,
followngong what we see is that it isn't the same in, many,
many many. Ways and this is something that practitioners of
Following gong would agree. With there is a web of conspiracy.
Here it's tough to suss out the strings of truth
(29:39):
right in this. Morass there are allegations of everything From
oregon harvesting to cults to even front groups for intelligence.
Agencies so let's dive in deep. Breath here's where it gets. Crazy.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah china's state run media Outlet chinoa had a completely
different take on Why Follen gong was being. Banned they
claimed that The west was attempting to Make china look.
Bad they believed and argued, accordingly that The chinese government
banned foul And gong Because lee had broken numerous laws
(30:18):
was responsible for over a thousand, deaths mainly from essentially
coercing members into committing suicide or by not seeking medical,
treatment which is a part of this whole you, know
belief system that we'll get, into was threatening public safety
and because members had infiltrated The Communist party in.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Order to overthrow the.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Government that's a lot and it, sounds you, know like
the kind of high level. Conspiracies that's like we live
for things Like operations Snow. White sounds a lot less
like you, know just doing tai chi in the park
on A sunday.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Afternoon, right, Yeah and anyone listening may remember operations wherein
The church Of scientology or members a few members of
The church Of scientology attempted some.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Infiltration all, Right so NOW i can feel the shadow
of our legal, TEAM i. Know oh, Man so let
me how Did it's very careful with the writing on that.
One the official position of The church Of scientology is
That operation Snow white was not sanctioned by their organization
(31:29):
as a way to massively infiltrate the irs and then
blackmail the government in a crazy financial.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Scheme.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Ood several people disagree with that official, position including THE
Us Supreme, Court, Right, like that's what we could. Say
we said that, earlier, right there are people who. Disagree,
Uh so we Have mike. RENDERAN i, mean our ship
has sailed in that. Regard but but there is one
(31:58):
thing you know that you that they, said it's really
interesting here nol the idea of infiltration of the. Government
that was. True, yeah The chinese government was telling the
truth about this. One Following gong was all up in
the state's military and the security apparatus and the media
educational establishments as much as. Possible it's explicitly mentioned in
(32:24):
one Of lee's, Books Following. Gong he talks about putting
focus on getting support from state government, leaders like from these,
Officials and interestingly, enough if you read The english And
french translations of these, books those specific mentions have been
(32:45):
cut from the. Text see the past is. Changing but
in all, fairness to lead all fairness to the practitioners
Of Following, gong we have to point out seeking powerful
friends is not the same thing as plain a. Coup
you want to get like a a member of the
high ranking member of The Communist party on board With, Falungong,
(33:09):
well then maybe first it's because you think it's good for,
them you, know on a purely physical. Level and then maybe,
secondly like, hey this person could help us out with
a jam especially for being. Misrepresented we have someone on
our side who can, say here's the, truth and this
is not. Propaganda so it's not the same thing as it.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Cou it sounds a lot like The family to. Me
another episode we covered where Evangelical christianity was at least
making those friends right in high places and actively working
to increase just influence within those, realms not necessarily causing a.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Coup is that the episode where we got a little
bit lost trying to figure out what the menu for
the prayer breakfast.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
WAS i was just, THINKING i was, like why AM
i thinking about eggs right? Now is that massive prayer
breakfast that was such a like an influencer kind of
closed door situation that they essentially started.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
Correct it's always, pancakes.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Guys, YEAH i JUST i don't like all, RIGHT i
feel like a pancake breakfast is something that's cooler is
a phrase than actual? Thing like what makes it a
pancake breakfast instead of just like pancakes AND oj is?
There maybe maybe.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Eat two, pancakes you know WHAT i?
Speaker 5 (34:28):
Mean?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
LIKE i DO i need a?
Speaker 3 (34:30):
VARIETY i want like some sausage and some. Bacon i'm
not a huge. Pancakes you feel so much like dessert to.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Me look very, heavy you. Guys when you're a tax exempt,
organization you gotta keep costs super, low and pancake batter
is the way to.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Go.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
True it is the people's the people's.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Food you're going to call it the people's cake pan also?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
True also?
Speaker 1 (34:53):
True, yeah, yeah pancake opinions. ASIDE i just THINK i don't. Know,
also portions in THE us are so cartoon initially. Large
if you go eat, SOMEWHERE i, Mean i'm with you
guys in two or three silver dollar pancakes AND I
i have some other stuff going on on the. Plate
but this is Not this is not something THAT sinoi
or THE prc. Was, yes we're talking about too. Much they,
(35:17):
were they were, concerned you, know and they Thought western
media was And western governments were being complicit in supporting
what they saw as an increasingly subversive and perhaps even separatist. Organization,
today the members Of, ballongkong or the practitioners OF i
THINK i think the members of the organization prefer the term.
(35:39):
Practitioners the practitioners are often overtly political and overtly Anti.
China they want the, demise if not of the government Of,
china they want the demise of The Communist. Party and
if we're being completely objective, here you can see a
couple of different reasons for. This The chinese government may
argue that they're political beliefs are the reason this movement was,
(36:03):
Banned but we also have to, ask if we're being,
fair are the people who are being overtly political? Here
are they just reacting in an entirely reasonable way to
some extreme state level? Persecution you? Know is this an
exercise group or a? Cult that's a question that we're
(36:25):
going to try to explore together after a word from
our sponsor.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
And we're, back, Okay so before the, break we posed
the question what really is? This is a lot of
divisive talk surrounding The fall And.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Gong so what is?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
It it is a kind of anocious mindfulness meditative exercise
group or some sort of nefarious, cult or perhaps something in.
Between while the again state Sponsored chinese media Calls fellongonga,
Cult western media seemed very hesitant to do. So in, fact,
(37:04):
really like we talked about that nineteen ninety Nine time,
interview did give them a platform and treated them almost
with a lot of, deference and we got to ask ourselves.
Why some scholars argue that it was because of pressure
From fallongong, itself perhaps that religiousness we talked. About, still
there are some accounts and evidence showing recruitment tactics that
(37:25):
could be described as pretty sketchy at the very, least.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Cult like at the.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Most As Heather caven writes In fallongong and The, media
what can we? Believe the exercises quickly begin to take
a back seat to, larger ideologically driven belief. Systems here's
a quote on newcomer's second or third, visits they are
given scriptures Showing lee's rejection of those who simply do
(37:56):
the exercise part and not the other, stuff which we'll get.
Into when six months into the field, work a member
told me That Fello gong was not about doing the
exercises at, all AND i was not.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Surprised.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah So Heather kavan wrote this awesome paper where she
did this ethnographic STUDY i believe In New, zealand and she.
Was she was meeting up with members Of Followen kong
every day for a time and doing these exercises in the,
morning and she got they were very welcoming and she
(38:32):
got an increasingly intimate perspective of the day to day
actions of practitioners as well, as you, know some of
the larger things that they believed to be. True and
this got into ideas of like having, visions visions are very,
big and following gong having claravoyance moments or moments of by.
(38:55):
Location and then also there were sketchy things where she would,
ask like she did this pretty more than a, YEAR i,
think and there was somebody she was meeting every day
and she, said, hey what DO i call that woman
That i've been meeting with every? Day and somebody just
looked at her and was, like just call her the,
woman which is kind of a sketchy thing to. SAY
(39:18):
i don't, KNOW i don't. Know i'm an. Outsider but
this told her that there was a maybe to your
point in a little bit of bait and, switch kind
of like you're come for the, exercises stay for the
truth about the. Universe And i'm not being. DISMISSIVE i
mean that's kind of the process and those for people
who continue deeper into the belief. System Ex Fello gong
(39:38):
practitioners say that the beliefs and values are what might
be called surprisingly, conservative the forbidding of interracial, marriage the
condemnation of, homosexuality and to our earlier, point discouraging the
use of modern. Medicine for their, part Following gong officially
(39:59):
deny that this is. True so again we're in a
one side said, this one side said that. Situation but
if this is if we were to define this as a,
cult Which Follen goong emphatically says it is, not then
we would naturally find ourselves with a couple of questions
(40:20):
off the. Bat the first is this this observation cults need,
leaders so people are critics of this. Organization those who
Accuse phallongngong of being a cult say they do have a,
leader and that role is played by the, Founder Lee.
Honkshi so weird thing About Lee honkshi is that we
have conflicting stories about, him his, life his current, beliefs
(40:45):
his aims for the organization or aims for the. Movement
and the even weirder thing about this, is To matt's
earlier point about an information, war some of these reports
are coming from people who would be totally happy if
he never, existed aka in his. Government some of these
reports are coming from his, disciples and then some of
(41:06):
his conflicting reports are coming straight from him at different
times when he's talking to different, People like he's talking
A western, audience, right say Like i'm not a, god
don't try to make me a. God and then he's
talking to a domestic audience and he's, say my true
spiritual form is so huge that IF i came down,
here you, know in my true, form you would be
(41:27):
like standing and trying to gaze up past my big.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
Toe totally.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
God aka yeah, interesting wo.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Wow it's very. WEIRD i, mean and he in the
past Hasn't lee said that he's like Of jesus or
a savior or the person who is going to, yeah save, humanity. Right.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah he said that he's compared himself at times in
speeches to the Biblical Jesus, christ where he said, that you,
know lines Like christ has a sixteen carrot gold. PATH
i have a twenty four or twenty something carrot gold.
(42:09):
Path you, know we have to admit maybe we're maybe
we're losing some context in, translation but these like there's
a repeated pattern of this. Stuff he also says things
will be familiar to people who have had experience with exclusionary.
Organizations says that if you're a member Of Following, gong
(42:30):
you're superior to ordinary, people and this might be familiar
to longtime. Listeners also says you need to relinquish affection for,
kinsfolk love between a man and a, woman and affection for,
parents feelings and. Friendship you need to focus on the.
Path what was that guy we did episode On Benhito.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Marows wasn't he like in Like sedona or something like.
That he was in somewhere somewhere in Like New mexico
and he had this whole like kind of sweat lodge
tech bro cult, situation, careful, careful.
Speaker 4 (43:11):
Disgusting, YEAH i still get his.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Newsletters oh, boy. Interesting, well, no you're, Right, Ben and
it gets, weirder like he's not shy about, this and
it's it's even a little, inconsistent, right like when he's
gonna go big and talk about the big, toe you,
Know god situation or downplay and, say oh, no, No
(43:34):
i'm just a bit a humble meditation. Instructor i'm exaggerating
a little. Bit but in that time article he talks
a lot about being able to teach people to levitate
off of the, Ground and then also he talks about
how you shouldn't ever show these abilities to. Outsiders the
(43:54):
time reporter, says in your, Book Zan, falloon you talk
about people levitating off the, ground but say that they
should not show other.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
People why is?
Speaker 3 (44:02):
That and hely says it is the same principle That
western gods in paradise should not be seen by ordinary
mortals because they cannot understand its. Meaning and Then time
asks have you seen human beings levitate off the, ground
and he, RESPONDS i have known too.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Many can you describe any that you have, known to
Which lee, Responds.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
David copperfield he can, levitate and he did it during.
Performances not trying to rag on the guy too, hard
but very mixed messages here he's, saying you, KNOW i
can teach people to do. It it's something that's inherent
in this belief. System, ALSO i don't like the idea
of them showing anybody but the one he cites this
(44:42):
is An american illusionist where everyone knows.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
That he's not really.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Levitating very.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Unusual it may.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
Have just been a joke in some a form of a.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Joke who, Knows, yeah, Maybe and then Also this is
interesting because again we go back to the question of
not just, context but the question motivation of the. Sources
like the thing about there's an interesting, Example so we
talked a little bit about how there might have been
pressure From tholoungong that Influenced western media's portrayal of the. Group,
(45:18):
originally it reminds me of a lot Of Reverend moon and
The Washington, times when The moonies owned that there were
clear conflicts of interests that would come up over, time
just like Obviously sinoa has conflicts of interest because it's state,
media just like multiple organizations. Do it's more unusual to
(45:40):
be like a pro publica without as much of an editorial.
Bias SO i think we built an okay case to show.
That first, off a lot of statements from this guy
have been conflicting over time with earlier statements he's made
or with statements he goes on to make. Afterwards, secondly
there are some he's made that seemed pretty extraordinary and
(46:03):
that don't seem all too out of the realm of cult.
Leader but we're we're just we're telling you. Why some
people have argued that the other thing that keeps so
we're kind of ping ponging back and forth across what's happening.
Here here's another thing that's. Happening Following gong practitioners have
for years and years and years alleged that since gosh
(46:28):
more in two decades, now that since nineteen ninety, nine
maybe even a little, before they were being persecuted and
are being persecuted by The chinese. Government that is. True
that's the. Thing that's no one they're not making that.
Up after the, ban tens of thousands of people were,
arrested they were sent to labor camps without a, trial
(46:49):
and many of these people who have, survived who came
out of these said that they were. Tortured, again the
numbers may be. Exaggerated it's tough to get transparent numbers
of incarceration from The chinese, government and it's tough to
really and this is not a ding on. Them it's
(47:10):
tough to understand the credibility of numbers offered by an
organization like this on its own membership rates on what
happened to whom and, When just because they might Not
i'm not saying there's any necessarily any ulterior motive. Here
they may not have the capacity to keep that kind of,
(47:31):
accounting but the detainment was definitely. Real.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
Yeah so in The Wall Street, journal a journalist Named
Ian johnson documented his investigation into the repression that we're
talking about in a series that he, wrote which he
received A Pulitzer prize for part. Of and there's definitely
some of the strains going. On shinhoa in pretty, stark
(47:54):
if not very. Surprising as we discussed, contrasts depicted the
prisoners as being happy playing. Basketball we've talked about this
in the past episodes as, well eating amazing you, know
platters of food and all of, that with local police
stations acting as centers for them to receive counseling to
help these, poor you, know brainwashed souls essentially get an
(48:19):
education and BECOME i guess more acclimated or reintroduced into
traditional Civilized chinese. Society in, this you, know really supported
the narrative that the government was pushing of this being
a dangerous separatist. Cult, however practitioners Of Fallo gong described
(48:39):
members being treated much much, differently described them being hung
by their ankles upside down for long periods of, time
hit with like cattle prodt type implements or stun, guns.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Actually cut or pierced.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
With bamboo, sticks beaten and, raped and kept in tiny
any spaces where they can't even move for days at a,
time prohibited from using the restroom facilities for long periods of,
time showing brutal imagery displayed throughout these, facilities things like police.
Brutality and often in some of these public demonstrations that
(49:17):
they would, do they would re enact historical torture scenes
in alarming and disturbing.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Ways theater is a, weapon, Right it's a real, thing
and it can be a powerful. Thing there's an interesting
and somewhat troubling interpretation of this. Persecution this persecution is
to a degree, aspirational as much AS i hate to say.
(49:46):
It within the, movement there's this one speech Where lee
talks about stepping. Forward stepping forward is a euphemism referring
to a series of tests that partitioners must pass to
gain entry into his version or his realization of heaven
or paradise or.
Speaker 4 (50:07):
Enlightenment going up the, ladder crossing the, bridge stepping. Forward,
okay do.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
You want to get a seed? Reference, so, so, yeah
here's how he explained. It he said he had only
planned enlightenment for a limited number Of Followen gong, members
but with the increasing amount of practitioners, again they might
be inflating the numbers, here and with of course the
eminent end of the, world he had to start weeding
(50:36):
people out quick fast and in a. Hurry and so
he said that if you defend the following long to
the point where you are, imprisoned you are, detained you are,
tortured then your bad karma is burned, off and this
assures you a space in. Paradise practitioners must not recant their,
(50:57):
faith even if their retre is, insincere even, if like
we proved in earlier episodes on, torture you're just saying
whatever you think people want to hear so that they'll
stop pulling out your fingernails or shocking your testicles or
what have. You he, Says, look even if you fake Recanting,
follongong you're a terrible. Person and then he goes, on
(51:20):
think about. This he goes one step further and heavily
implies that he purposefully orchestrated the, torture that it was
all under his control the whole, time because he needed
to expose these weak willed, folks and he refers to
these folks who recant under torture as quote malignant. Tumors
(51:41):
so the torture is, real but the interpretation of it
and the degree to which it's real is still up
for debate because there's just not a unbiased source, here,
Really and it's, tough you, know like these Are Wall
street journal these are top notch, journalists and they're having
a tough time get cutting through the propaganda and cutting
(52:02):
through the, purposeful the purposely deceptive tactics of the. Government
and we have to go to one other, thing which
is probably the thing people a lot of people in
The west probably first heard Of Followen gong because of,
this and we've covered it in both video and audio
in the. Past organ harvesting the quote unquote red, market.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
Yep and this is, again as you, Said, ben this
is one of the things that brings a lot of
people into the conversation because it's such a sensational concept
that The chinese government is somehow or for some reason
harvesting organs directly From fallongong. Practitioners and this is something
that is alleged and it's usually it's usually organs being
(52:49):
taken from detainees people who are already detained by the.
Government at least that's what. Said in twenty, nineteen an
expert panel of independent researchers said they heard clear evidence
that organ harvesting had taken place over at least twenty years.
Speaker 1 (53:06):
Wow directly tied to nineteen ninety NINE, yep when they
were declared. Illegal if you look at the timeline questions
about the bias of this, tribunal The China, tribunal it
was set up by a group called The International coalition
to And Transplant abuse In, China so it definitely starts
(53:29):
from assuming this is happening and they just want to
prove it's. There this panel said it was beyond a
doubt a fact that there had been force art organ,
harvesting not just because of one like crooked doctor or
one crooked, warden which this is very, important but they
said it was happening on a systemic. Scale states. Supported
(53:52):
and here's the worst. Part beijing has repeatedly denied these.
Accusations they did not start With Followen. Gong to be very,
clear as we talked about, earlier this is an ongoing,
thing or this was an ongoing thing at the, time
BUT i want to draw special attention to their reasoning,
here their support of their claim that they didn't do.
(54:15):
This they you, guys they literally, said, no we don't
forcibly take organs from people as a bunch Of western.
Propaganda you, KNOW i, mean For pete's, sake fellow, humans
we stopped taking organs from executed prisoners way back in twenty.
Fifteen and that was like four years. Ago you guys
(54:38):
are living in the.
Speaker 4 (54:39):
Past it's so twenty. Fifteen come, on that's.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Just like, Okay, like, Imagine i'm not gonna say somebody
burned a, barn but imagine LIKE i was standing right
next to just like the old Dre eminem, Song i'm
standing right next to a burning barn in this, instant
And i've got A i've got a handful of, matches
a can full of, gas and people are, like, hey,
(55:04):
dude did you burn this? Barn i'm, like, what that's.
CRAZY i haven't burned barnes for fun since twenty. Fifteen
you guys are, wild and that's.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
Unfair oh but like you see What i'm, Saying, no, Totally.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
I'm saying it's right to be.
Speaker 4 (55:20):
Suspicious it is right to be suspicious and it's also
just something to point out. Here we talked about the
demonstrations that Felon gung practitioners have done showing the police,
brutality the. Torture one of the things that they harp,
on or at least have in the, past is this bread,
market and they will go through the motions of having
(55:40):
a detainee like not really but having their organs ripped
out in a very gory fashion in a demonstration in
front of a, building a government building or.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Something and then this leads us to maybe one of
the biggest things we need to note. Here the information
war that started in the nineties. Continues it's been going
on for. Decades there's something we mentioned a little. Earlier
we've talked a lot about this off ahead coreaboration for this.
Episode in THE, us there is this amazing traveling show
(56:12):
Called Shen. Yung we talked we talked about, THIS i
think last week or, so like we always wanted to.
GO i definitely always wanted to. Go felt the tickets
were a little, pricey but it is in fact associated
with and backed By. Ballungngong, visually it's a stunning.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Show M.
Speaker 3 (56:30):
H it's the kind of thing, too where it's, LIKE
i don't know where this budget is coming. From with
the marketing blitz behind this show is out of. CONTROL
a lot of it's just kind of like street team
type situations where you'll, see you, know flyers for it
at every restaurant and coffee shop and you, know juice
bar in, town but they have billboards, everywhere and like
(56:51):
In New York city, especially a friend of mine was
saying how he ended up in a cab or a
lift or something that was driven by very Clearly, fallongong you,
know kind of hardliner and there were even Shun yuan
advertisements within the, cab and he had like stacks Of
fallongong pamphlets as. Well it's almost like a modern Day
(57:13):
Hari krishna. Thing remember HOW i used to see The
Hari krishna's at the airport passing out their pamphlets and.
Stuff this is sort of like that to.
Speaker 4 (57:20):
Me oh, yeah it makes itself. Known so let's talk
about exactly what we're seeing here in this beautifully choreographed,
dance interpretive dance and cultural exchange at Shn. Yun what
do you?
Speaker 1 (57:33):
See, yeah so you see it's heavily rooted in Traditional chinese.
Culture so we'll see you'll see, songs you'll see intricate
choreography and dance. Numbers you'll also see a emittedly transparent
narrative and overall message which includes the re enactment of
(57:54):
some of those some of those acts of, persecution also
includes you, know very pro fallungong Pro shenyun, message and
it talks about the evils of. Persecution like it's clearly
it's clearly a show with something to say beyond witness
(58:15):
this ancient tradition Of chinese.
Speaker 4 (58:17):
Dance, yeah and you can read a lot about Shen.
Yun one thing you can you can hear about at
least is The Upstate New york training facility where Shen
YUN i guess Fellon gong practitioners or Just shnyun dancers
and performers go and learn really interesting.
Speaker 3 (58:37):
STUFF i mean to, me it's it's like it has
to have a massive base of, operations, right BECAUSE i
mean it's got to be hundreds and hundreds of individuals
that are performing in these various iterations of this, show,
RIGHT i, mean like and, like so you're saying there's
a training facility almost like you think of For Circo.
Speaker 4 (58:55):
Sole, yeah it's it is called The Fai Shian, academy
and it's In middleton Or, Middletown New.
Speaker 1 (59:04):
York and you, know post, pandemic if you depend on
where you, live it's pretty easy for you to see
this show when it comes into talent because it's you,
know it used to travel a lot before BEFORE covid
locked this. Down one THING i noticed is it seemed
like A Shin young show was always on the. Way
(59:24):
it just. Left it's definitely a business and just.
Speaker 4 (59:27):
Quick shout out To The New yorker And Gia, TOLENTINO
i think that's her. NAME a twenty nineteen article you
can read Called stepping into The, uncanny unsettling world Of
shenyin just it describes to you exactly what you.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
See and let's stick with The New York. Times let's
also stick with allegations of front companies Because followongong has
a success story that may be familiar to a lot
of people in THE, us though you may not know
the full. Story it's a big conspiratorial great journalist over
At New York Time times Named Kevin rose wrote this
(01:00:03):
piece on a newspaper Called The Epoch times Epocch.
Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
That sounds so. Familiar, okay all, Right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
So for, years The Epoch times was a kind of,
small low budget newspaper that was against the government Of.
China and you would if you're walking around the corners
of Some New york, neighborhoods you would you would have
this thing handed out for free to. You people like free.
Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Stuff it's a smart.
Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Strategy but in around twenty sixteen twenty seventeen or, so
the paper made a couple of changes that turned it
into one of the country's most powerful digital, platforms most
powerful digital. PUBLISHERS i should. Say they became a world
class source of right wing information by betting the farm On.
(01:00:51):
FACEBOOK i don't know WHY i have so many farm analogies, today. Guys,
Sorry but so they like When Donald trump came forward
to become, president to become a presidential, candidate all this,
stuff they got super on board and they embraced The
trump presidency most, likely if you had to, guess because
(01:01:13):
of his strong Anti china stance at the. Time more
than anything. Else it was just like an enemy of
my enemy kind of. THING i, guess how with my
pick of my.
Speaker 4 (01:01:22):
Chicken.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Whatever so the coverage that they had OF us politics
beforehand was very much like, neutral also ran straight up
reporting right like this bill, passes this bill doesn't. Pass
this person is blah blah blah Of New. York but
then it became super partisan and in twenty. Twenty this
article was written In november twenty. Twenty rose reports that
(01:01:46):
The Epic times and its affiliates are a force in
right wing, media with tens of millions of social media
followers spread across dozens of, pages and they have an
online audience that rivals the audiences Of The Daily call And.
Breitbart since twenty, seventeen they had been running some pretty interesting,
(01:02:10):
experiments and you can also get a taste of the
kind of stuff they. Cover they cover real world, events
they cover international news an Anti china. Slant but then they,
also you, know when they're on social, media which very
adept at according To, rose they're posting stuff about like
anti vaccine screen. Screeds where did the coronavirus really come?
(01:02:34):
From and why doesn't THE prc want you to? Know
it was made to lab on purpose by? Them because they're?
Evil that's the whole. Headline why Is Bill gates directing
the pandemic what's up with This jewish mob that controls the?
World like that's the kind of stuff they're.
Speaker 4 (01:02:48):
Writing and if you listen to those headlines and those,
topics it sounds very similar to the stuff you've probably
seen floating around On.
Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Facebook AND i think this is an important. Thing it's
a very strange turn of. Events this is started as
like a spiritual movement or an exercise. Group how did
it become a media? Powerhouse how did it become you,
know associated with this with this traveling show that we
want to see that that almost weaponizes? Theater what what's
(01:03:18):
the true story Of Lee Hong? Shi and at the
very end of today's, show we have to advance the
even crazier. Stuff i'm SURE i can't be the only
person wondering is following along an asset of a foreign intelligence?
Agency it's not out of the. Question it's that's the.
Thing no hard proof of this has come to. Light
(01:03:38):
please send us some if you have. Some but of
course people are wondering is THE cia? Involved because this
is this is like TEXTBOOK. Cia you get a you
get a dissident group that may be disruptive to the status,
quo and, boom you got some independent freedom. Fighters you
got a bunch of college students who just happened to
overthrow a government because they believe in, uh in these
(01:04:02):
VERY us friendly, ideals and they just somehow got some.
Guns like that's that's the. Thing, uh that's why people
are asking. This And foal And gong has not done
like some kind of armed attack on A chinese building
at this. Point but people are asking these questions primarily
because The west has such a terrible track record and
(01:04:24):
terrible precedent for interfering and fares this. Way and, also
these are human. Beings falanngong people are human. BEINGS i
hope it's not a hot take that human beings shouldn't be, tortured.
Speaker 4 (01:04:35):
Kidnapped, nope that is a very cool.
Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Take cool takes come for the hot, one stay for
the cool and stuff they want you to. Know but
there's one there's another. POINT i think one of us
mentioned this. Earlier there's another big. Mystery where is all
the money coming from that's powering these? Initiatives is this
really all coming from like subscriptions to things by The
(01:05:00):
Epoch media group or checking sales for Shn. YUDEN i,
MEAN i don't know this is this is. Big we
want To we want to know what you guys.
Speaker 4 (01:05:10):
Think, yeah if you have any information on the tithing
process or like donation process or membership that, it you,
know whatever it takes to stay within the, Organization if
you have info on, that we'd love to hear, it
because it's difficult to find anything transparent coming out of
the organization or anything that you could believe coming out
of an opposition. Writer so, yeah please write to us about.
Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
That, YEAH i just keep like. Matching you're you're trying
to decide if you should eat a, sandwich and there's
one person left saying this is the best sandwich. Ever
if you don't eat, it you're going to, Die and
then there's a person on the other side of the
table saying this is the. Worst it doesn't even qualify as.
Food if you do eat, it you'll die in a,
(01:05:53):
slow agonizing way in A chinese prison like this is
very intense and it's it's tough to figure out the.
Truth BUT i think There's i'm going to, SAY i
think there's some sketchy stuff going. On no matter how
you slice, it there's. Something there's something they don't want
you to. Know multiple instances of. It please let us
(01:06:15):
know if you have, Experience please let us know what
you think the future of this organization or these kinds
of organizations will be and what it can tell us
about the world. Today we try to be easy to
find on The.
Speaker 4 (01:06:28):
Internet, yeah you can find us On facebook And. Twitter
we are conspiracy stuff On instagram where a conspiracy stuff.
Show if you do Use, facebook head on over To
here's where it Gets. Crazy that is the page where
you can hang out with all the other conspiracy realists
who are listening right, now who want to talk with
you and comment and be, nice and they will be
nice and they'll be, cool or else our awesome mods
(01:06:50):
will take care of.
Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
Them you can also find us all over the internet
in other. Places does the Usual facebook spots where we're
conspiracy stuff or conspiracy stuff show On. Instagram you can
also give us a telephone call at one eight three THREE.
Stdwytk once you hear the sound Of ben's chime like vocal,
intonations leave a. Voicemail try to keep it three. Minutes
(01:07:14):
they cut off at. Three do us a solid don't
like spam us with like three or six, Messages try to,
like you, know practice, brevity get your story in in
one and you might hear yourself featured on one of
our weekly listener mail. Episodes but please do let us
know if it's okay to use your, voice why you'd
like us to call, you or if you prefer to remain,
anonymous and.
Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Feel feel free to give us a rating on your
podscraper of choice should the spirit move you. So if
none of that quite gives you the, truth, compassion and
forbearance you are looking, for there's one other way to
reach out to. Us you can email us directly where we.
Speaker 4 (01:07:47):
Are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot. Com stuff They Don't want
(01:08:09):
you To know is a production Of. iHeartRadio for more
podcasts From, iHeartRadio visit The iHeartRadio, App Apple, podcasts or
wherever you listen to your favorite, shows
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Show Links
RSSStoreAboutLive ShowsPopular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.