May 13, 2026 • 54 mins
Have you ever used a Tarot deck? Heck, have you designed your own? In tonight's episode, Ben, Matt and Noel explore the strange history of the Tarot, from its origin as a card game for wealthy Italians to its present, multivariate state as anything from a fun diversion to a genuine tool of 'divination'. Spoiler, Conspiracy Realists: the guys are pretty convinced they've figured out why the Tarot is so popular -- and how it actually works.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello, welcome back to the show. Is this your card?
My name is Matt.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Now, yeah, my name is Noah, and this is not
my card.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagott. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. And tonight, fellow conspiracy realists,
we are exploring something we, oddly enough, have not covered
for quite some time. Over almost two decades. We never
(00:56):
got to tarot cards.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
How is that even possible?
Speaker 4 (00:58):
And we read the cards. We have very good news.
You could see a picture of the shore. Here. We
are hanging out on a stuff themed Virgin Voyages cruise
this October. Guys couldn't be more excited.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
And by stuff we mean all of the shows with
stuff in the name, not all, but some of our
favorites and some of our best friends, Josh and Chuck.
Stuff you shouldn't know, right, Stuff they don't.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Want you to know will be joined by the dal
Moodies themselves, Josh and Chuck.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Oh my gosh, yes, I'm so excited. Also, stuff, Mom
never told you what are stuffs?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
The best stuff is going to be you on the
cruise with us because we get to hang out, like
actually just hang out.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
On the show.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Sometimes we even go off the ship to do things
in Bermuda. What yes with you? Shall we excure? We
can't wait for you to join us. From October second
to the seventh, we're heading out of New York. We're
going through the Caribbean. We could not be more excited.
Let's see, I got another water tarot card here. Have
(02:04):
you guys ever used tarot cards?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Well, it's funny you should ask ben. I very recently
had my first ever professional tarot reading. I was in
New York City hanging out with a friend and we
decided to try one out. And so we found a
place that was in the walking distance and it wasn't cheap,
and it was quite bad and my house well it
(02:29):
just it was if it was cold reading, it wasn't
very adept cold reading. The person did say that I
maybe give too much information, like just as a person,
that I maybe should play things a little closer to
the vest. And I don't know, but it's kind of
funny to say that, considering that you're asking me questions
(02:49):
and I'm answering the questions for you of my ability.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
So I felt a little like yeah at a little bit,
and you said they were very New York as well.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
New York is as the cheesecake. My friend, I literally said,
you're referring to me and my and my my companion
as use guys, and ironically and just saying use use
refer it was I felt like I was getting cold
red by Tony Soprano.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Watched that episode. I would watch.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Soprano Fortune Teller. That's a new spin off, all right,
James Gandolfini, though can't really make that happen. Maybe Chrissy
could do it.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No, just as uh as more information and please please
don't give too much. Oh what were you wearing when
you when you went to get your tarot red?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I was wearing a hoodie, a zip up hoodie and
a nice button down shirt that was not revealed because
of said hoodie.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Okay, okay, so you were wearing clothing.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Anything about below the belt? My friends, and I am
I'm not going to do impress me on that. No, No,
I was wearing a pant of some sort ofaloon.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
No, I'm only asking you because, as we're going to
get into this conversation, a lot of what occurs within
a reading, within you know, an encounter with someone that's
going to be providing that kind of service with you,
occurs before any words are spoken. Oh yeah, yes, when
the eyes are on you when you walk through a door.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Well, funny enough, this clearly was a family business because
we looked in the window and the door was locked,
and we kind of had to get people's attention. At
first we thought they were maybe doing a private event
in the back room, but we realized it was just
the fam kicking it waiting for a customer to approach.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
That's how you know what's legit.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Oh, that's what that was my thinking. Initially. Ben Yeh
sad to report did not find it to be particularly compelling.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Well, maybe it's a legitimate rift. Compare it to that's
like a jumbo shrimp, right, yeah, there, it is quite paradoxical.
Let's compare it to how you know a restaurant is
solid if the people who work at the restaurant have
their kids behind the counter doing homework. That's you know, like.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
That's a low key guy Chinese establishment. Perhaps it would
be my experience with that.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Yeah, So we have talked about Tarot cards off air
because we are actually friends folks outside of Netflix or
outside of your favorite podcast platform, and this has always
baffled us. There's a very important question that we want
to address tonight, which is this, what if tarot cards
(05:28):
actually work? What do we mean by work and what
would it mean for the world if tarot cards do
what they say on the tin. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsors. Here are the facts.
(05:50):
Word of the day cartomancy. Cartomancy is the fancy word
for telling the future, or fortune telling, or divination through
the use of any kind of paper card.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yeah, it makes me think of the word another portmanteau.
I guess then maybe a card. No, I think kind
of is car cardistry? Referring to these folks on the
internet who like do all these crazy magic shuffle tricks
undred percent, one could potentially combine cardistry and cartomancy into
cartoman mantistry.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I love it, admit. What Wait?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
What is that?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Wait? What was that we got to wait till the end,
all right, I got it looks.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Right, Oh dude, it looks like some kind of Nickelodeon
tarot card. It looks awesome.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
So we know that for a long time, ever since
the invention of cards, or really the invention of any technology,
people have attempted to predict the future or learn more
about the world around them through that thing like pyromancy,
predict in the future through fire right, gaining knowledge in
(07:03):
a prometheum way. We also know there are these things
called tarot games. So the very first, like the ancestor
of the modern tarot deck that you're going to run
into now if you're in the West, are going to
come to you via Italy from about the fourteen thirties CE.
(07:25):
This is when taro was first known as twunthy. Someone
helped me out, who's better? Which of us is the
best at Italian triphi triomphy? Yeah, there it is. That's good.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So this this thing is
so old that researchers from Yale made their bones on it. Sorry,
(07:48):
Sopranos is in my head now.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Throwing bones if it might which as well.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
A well, gone give it, guys, well done, and I
think there should be a tarot based Italian brain rot
Trioni Tortllini perhaps.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh no, please don't, I did it.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
It's too late, man happening. I will did it to existence.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
So we know that researchers from Yale did some very
clever watermark forensics to definitively date probably the world's oldest
tarot deck or the world's oldest modern ancestor that goes
back to fourteen thirty seven or fourteen forty two, somewhere
(08:35):
between there, and at that time, folks. As weird as
it will sound, the earliest tarot cards and the earliest
decks were basically a game for idle aristocrats and super
wealthy people.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I've always wondered about that because they do kind of
have suits and associated numbers in a similar way to
you know, a fifty two card playing card deck.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, you said, forensic water marking, Ben, I've only heard
of that in like the digital rights management world and
the stuff of you know, tech nowadays. I've never thought
of it as in potentially I'm assuming we're actually talking
about water marks here, maybe, or maybe paper the paper
(09:23):
that was used to create them.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
The age of the paper, the age of the ink,
the indentations, which can also tell us about the creation
process at the time.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Dang, I don't know how I didn't know about that
as a term and as a thing. That is so cool.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Look, man, if you were in the Ivory Tower, you
have to really focus in on your area of expertise.
So these folks chose tarot guards.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
You know. What it also kind of relates to is
a real good plumber will use forensic water marking to
trace the provenance of a leak. So it's similar set
of skills. You know, you're basically like your you're a
water detec.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Yes. So these clever boffins have figured out that what
we call tarot cards in the modern iteration probably do
date back to Italy in the early fifteenth century. And
these cards, again, we cannot emphasize this enough. These cards
(10:22):
again were a game for very wealthy people, the one
percenters of various Italian regions in the day. They expanded
from there throughout Europe with other rich people meeting each
other essentially right and from Italy we see other countries
(10:43):
other regions occasionally putting their own spin upon things. So
the modern standard tarot deck that you might be shuffling now.
Is probably based on the Venetian or Piedmontese tarot. That's
going to be seventy eight cards divided between the twenty
two card major arcana and the fifty six card minor
(11:07):
ar kana. And we know what major arcana is, right,
that's where that's where you get something that has like
a face on it in a certain direction, and it'd
be up or down, and it could be you're right,
it could be up or down. And we have the
minor arcana. The other fifty six cards. They're usually going
to come to you in four suits, wands, cups, swords,
(11:32):
or pentacles. Sometimes those are also circles or coins.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
And you may be thinking that sounds so familiar. There's
four different types of the card that you could get, right, hmmm,
I swear I've played a game like that before with cars.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Are you talking about Pokemon?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
No? No, I'm just talking about clubs and spades.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I thought you were talking about the different evolutions of
particular Pokemon, because I believe through valid or are there
only three? Maybe only three? Sorry?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
The Magician is only a basic uh Pokemon? What does
it become?
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Ben becomes the Magician? Might become the sorcerer, right.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
And then levels up to the tower.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
There's always the higher refin. Let me see, I got
a tower card here, I think, uh, but we uh
will while I'm looking for the tower card. Sorry, guys,
Uh okay, we're going to keep that one. Uh while
we're looking for the tower card. We need to ask
why and how this evolved from a regular garden variety
(12:45):
or court game variety card game into a tool of divination.
The answer probably dates back to French occultist in the
eighteenth century. From what we know about them. They started
to spin tales in the seventeen hundreds and they were saying, oh,
(13:06):
this is an ancient art descended from Egypt or Greece
or and they were cold reading right Noel Matt, Like
you guys said earlier, they saw someone walk into the room,
they looked at how they were dressed and how they
were moving, and they were like, this guy loves Egypt.
Let's tell them this stuff is Egyptian. So they made
(13:27):
it exotic, and they made it seem ancient, and they
definitely embellished it. The problem is their stories are untrue.
From everything we can find, the origin story of the
taro is fourteen hundreds in Italy and it's pretty popular
(13:48):
in the modern day. Statistically, Folks, you or someone you
know has a tarot deck at home right now as
we record on May fourth, twenty twenty six, May the
Fourth be with you.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Well, the one I was flashing up, that's all. It
looks holographic, this little thing. This is based on a
dude named Arthur Edward Wait, who was this very fascinating
dude who was into the occult and he had involvement
in the Golden Dawn that we've met about before.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Order at the Golden Dawn.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Mm hmm, my favorite class from Elden Ring.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Well, then it's really interesting how what you're saying, what
we're talking about here is that other people who have
made further decks, who or who've created newer decks. Right,
he Wait passed away in nineteen forty two, but he
was around since eighteen fifty seven. As people make different
decks they might find somewhere at like an esoteric bookstore
(14:48):
or something, often have symbols and meaning way different or
beyond the meanings that Ben you're describing here that were
originally a part of the decks, like the Hermitic order
one as its own thing going on that is completely
separate or much separate from those original decks.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
One hundred percent. Yeah, because in the original tarot decks,
which were part of what we call tarot games, the
major arcata are considered trump cards, right, They're considered big
deal of face cards. They're not about your future, They're
about winning the game. And taro is now increasingly anomalous
(15:28):
in this very secular world it has. It's interesting because
it hasn't been vilified as much as other recent inventions
like the Ouija board. So people, if you talk to
them here in the West, especially, they're often gonna say
tarot cards are a fun diversion. And other people do
take their readings quite seriously. They might read cards for themselves,
(15:52):
their friends, or to know your point earlier. They might
have regular clients. That person who use guys do through
divination may have people who check in every week. And
we have to ask, was this person using the writer
weight taro.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
It's the traditional one that I'm used to seeing. Yeah,
so yeah, I think the basic og one. And of course,
like you know, like you said, uh, inversions mean something.
It was a it was a couple's reading. It involved
a lot more cards on the table than I'm used
to seeing, But again I don't really know enough to
know if they were doing it quote unquote right, you know.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
But it didn't look like a Celtic cross or Celtic cross. Yeah. Okay,
So writer Weight, which should be called writer weaight Smith.
That version of the Tarot Deck is first published in
nineteen o nine by a guy named William Ryder and
Son or a publishing outfit, and it was based on
the opinions of a guy named A Weight. It's illustrated
(16:59):
by Amla Colman Smith. Now, Weight was an academic of note,
and similar to Parsons, he was also very much an
occultist when that was still seen as something that would
not remove scientific credibility. They were both both Weight and
(17:20):
Smith are members of what we mentioned, the hermetic Order
of the Golden Down.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Dude, this is Weight guy is so fascinating because not
only was he hanging out in the Golden Dawn, he's
a rose Crucian or the Societas rose Crusiana, uh whatever
it is. But he was a part of that. But
he was also a Freemason. Right, So we're when we're
saying in occultest, this dude, is all about some of
these secret societies, some of these groups that are pretty
(17:48):
close knit. You're not allowed to know the stuff unless
you become a member and you work your way up.
Similar to what was what was this story? It just
came out guys, speed running scientificlogy.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Yes, you can't.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
You can't get it. You can't become a rose crucion
in the way that Weight was if you just open
a door and run through a couple of hallways.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Yeah, because they don't have the same audit machine. Their
rituals are quite complex, uh and take a long time
and have a lot of sex.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Oh well, well, in the things that I'm talking about with
weight right now, I'm just imagining there is so much
information that gets that gets crushed down into let's say,
a single symbol if you're in the Hermetic Order of
the Golden Dawn, that that one symbol has so much
(18:41):
meaning it can mean various things. Then you add another
symbol next to it, and now you've changed the meaning
of the original one, and you can make these like
endlessly complex concepts just with different symbols, which is what
they do on this other Tarot deck. And it's very
interesting to me thinking about someone in interested in the
occult in this way, guys, as in you are laying
(19:05):
symbols on top of symbols and creating even more complexity.
And then just how that could translate back into someone
giving you a cold reading with a card like let's
say the magician from their medic order. It's got it's
hard to see right here, but if you like pause
that maybe for a second, you can see all of
the different symbols that a reader someone performing the thing
(19:28):
that they did for you, nol. They could pull from
any one of those symbols and apply it somehow to you.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Yeah, it's interpretation. And while the writer weight I think
we should call it the writer weight Smith Tarot decks.
It's far and away the most popular deck in the West,
but you will find no shortage of other decks in
the game with their own spin on things, like you'll
see the modern Witch tarot deck that uses custom contemporary
(19:58):
artwork based on the riginal system, magical or mechanical, whatever
you want to call it. Also thought of you, Matt,
because while capitalism is pretty in style right now, you
will see tons of bespoke tarot decks that are branded partnerships.
You'll see themed decks for all sorts of stuff, all
(20:19):
sorts of films, your favorite novels. And this is why
I thought of all our fellow Magic the Gathering fans.
It's similar to how the Wizards of the Coast years
back said, let's take MTG across other intellectual properties. Let's
make a Spider Man release, Let's make a Lord of
the Rings.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Release, Ninja Turtles perhaps, yes, yes, you see that Wizards
is doing that. Matt claravoyance in a half shell with
magic cards?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Who thought that already came out great pre release? I
was surprised. It was that.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You know that that muscleman guy Malibu, that guy on
the internet, he loves the magic cards and he was
he was going to the shop and buying the new
Turtles decks.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
And that is exactly what tarot cards are doing in
the West. And we'll get into why before we Before
we really get into whether these things work, we should,
in the interest of fairness, talked about how to conduct
a tarot reading.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
We should, But can we just acknowledge that there is
a Dungeons and Dragons tarot deck that you can get
right now. It's and it looks amazing. There's also an
MTG tarot deck. You can buy it right now. I
didn't know that, man, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
So okay, awesome. We're going to read the cards and
I can already sense a disturbance in the universe. Several
of us in the audience just lost a lot of money,
uh thanks to magic the gather.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
They keep threatening to get involved, and every time I do,
Matt just says, I hope you got a bunch of
disposable income.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I'm like, oh, yes, it's like time mostly time. You
gotta have a lot of.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
So we'll keep the explanation about how to do a
tarot reading very simple. Think of the major arcana in
your weight deck as the major life event things the
minor arcana. Those four suits can be thought to deal
with more like day to day stuff. So if you
(22:21):
are a beginner, right, if you square one day one stuff, buddy,
then you start with a yes or no question, is
my financial situation going to take a positive direction? Is
my current or future relationship going to work out? This
is a super great way to begin dipping your toes
into a deck before you graduate to more abstract open
(22:45):
ended queries. So a lot of people are going to
start with a three card spread. Three card spread, you
take random cards from the deck and you pull one
to represent maybe the past, the present, the future.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
One thing that I have heard and I was taught
is that it is vitally important that the only person
touching touching that is the person that is being read for. Essentially,
you are the target because you are putting your intention
into the cars as you shuffle them and move them
around and then potentially make those selections. So if we're
(23:25):
talking about fate right versus free will versus, how does
that play into the actual reading itself? If you put
any sand in it at all, It's important that you're
the one doing it, not you know, the person reading
for you.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Yeah, you don't want to get mixed energies, you know
in the equation.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Yeah, let's get to that part. And also we what
to acknowledge before we get to that that. Other popular,
more advanced spreads or constellations or arrangements are going to
be things like the Celtic Cross. That's a specific layout
of ten cards. You'll see that pretty often. We've got
a picture here in the outline as well. This is
(24:03):
very common, and there are also countless variations on these approaches,
So if you are working with tarot cards for your
first time, you can also learn the rules and then
you can make up arrangements or patterns or discover arrangements
or patterns that feel meaningful to you, and you should
(24:24):
feel free to do so. But whatever approach you take,
the rules for getting started are pretty simple. Find a quiet,
peaceful place seen and setting right, just like hallucinogens, be
in a relaxed state of mind. And if you are
past the beginning phase, it's better to ask an open
ended question and then really visualize it as you're shuffling.
(24:49):
You know what I mean. The pro level tarot folks
are going to tell you that yes or no questions
are okay if you're a beginner, but a more broad
question will really get your deck room to maneuver and articulate.
And like old magic, which is I would argue weaponized psychology,
you have to think while you shuffle with real intention.
(25:12):
This transfers your energy into the cards. For the true believers,
and that is part of why people get so squirrely
about other folks touching their decks. You have to cleanse
it right with incense or a ritual of some sort
or peep just too. No Ah, Yes, you're talking about
(25:32):
the weight and p deck.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
That's right. Yes, Well, if you want to go a
little more hermetic order of the Golden Dawn with it,
you could put other yep substances on it.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
You sure could. It might mess up your shuffle. So yeah,
to your best, were.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
You talking about blood and semen?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
We are?
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Yeah, yeah, maybe a little, maybe a couple boogers too.
Check out our upcoming episode on Alistair Crowley. So lay
these cards out after you shuffle them and you've given
them your intention in whatever arrangement you have chosen. Walk
through the meanings of the cards in both their placement,
(26:12):
their significance to you, and their relationship importantly to one another.
A Tarot card guide is great for this. It also
often comes along with the modern tarot dec You might
buy and then whila viola. If everything works according to plan,
you're gonna feel like you've gained insight into your inquiry.
(26:35):
Maybe you feel you received a prediction from beyond or
communication from someone in your past, living or dead, or
maybe you just got further clarity on a difficult decision.
A lot of people consider it interesting and fun, but
also a ton of people do take these results seriously.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Can I just confirm that you said viola and voila?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Okay, Okay, I like.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Say and I like doing both of the mean I've
made it up for this. We'll see if it ends
up being a thing. But I could see it get cartoons.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I like it a lot.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Well, so we know that, uh, we know that people
may make major life decisions based on what they feel
they've gleaned right from their cards. And now we get
to the major arcana of the question, do tarot cards
actually work? We'll be back afterword from our sponsors. Here's
(27:42):
where it gets crazy. We don't often get to say this,
but yes, tarot cards work sort of. It depends on
what we mean by work. I mean there are loads
of people who believe a tarot deck has actively predicted
their future or given them some epiphany or revelation some sort.
(28:03):
But there's no hard, reproducible scientific study proving that to
be anything more than coincidence or self guided behavior. Right, Like,
here's a thought experiment. What guys, what if we cast
ethics aside and we tested the accuracy of tarot cards
(28:25):
by having people that we knew were going to die,
like death row inmates, and we had a reading right
before they were executed, and we saw how often the
death card comes up.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Right on.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Should we hmm? Should we do one for Cole Allen?
But he's in jail right now for the attempted assassination
of the president.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
It's so funny. I didn't even clock that dude's name.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, and he's probably not safe.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Tower, I would think not.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Yeah. Also, uh, do we think.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
That we're going to talk about it and listener?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure I was talking to with
some folks earlier about that one.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
I'm intrigued.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Chat Okay, but you guys see what I'm saying about
that exercise That ethics aside, that would be a good
way to see whether there is something beating statistics. I mean, gentlemen,
we know there are dozens of problems with conducting scientific
evaluations of Tarot card efficacy. The meanings are open to interpretation.
(29:37):
The reader interpreter can stack the odds. So if, for example,
like our pal Nole, you go to a professional psychic
or fortune teller, they may practice cold readings, so they're
picking up on sub or unconscious clues from you from
their client. They're bending their interpretation, possibly to what they
(29:59):
think the client needs to hear. That's kind of unethical,
not saying all these folks or drifters, but riddled me this.
How do you get certified to be a Tarot card reader?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Now this I did not know about.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Ben.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
I guess I assumed, as with most things, there's some
sort of maybe not governing body, but an association of sorts.
But I've never really taken the time to look into it.
So I think this is going to be educational for
a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, this is really cool stuff. Look, it's very interesting
to me personally. I think it's a cool thing that
you can do kind of in the same way you
can get YouTube certified, you know, or you can get
certified to use specific things. You can become an official
like Wizards of the Coast, Magic the Gathering player or
(30:45):
judge or things like that. I think it's cool that
something that there are places you can go both physically
and online to become a reader with like a certificate
you could put in the background.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
You definitely could get a certificate. We don't have, uh,
we have a ton of them in the background now.
But it's similar to being a ufologist or being a medium.
There is no mandatory accreditation, there's no mandatory ethics committee
that will judge you because tarot is not regulated. So
(31:18):
you don't need a license or a degree to buy
a deck right if you order one online right now,
or you go to a shop, they're not going to
ask you to see your paperwork. It's not treated the
same way as say, buy it the firearm, or prescribing
people drugs.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Can you imagine though, if if quote unquote spiritualist or
magical artifacts like that were governed by some sort of
like regulatory body, that's the kind of stuff you think.
I guess that's like Harry Potter type stuff, you know,
a study of magic.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Did you ever see h Do you ever see the
Netflix film? Right?
Speaker 3 (31:55):
You know it didn't, But is it pretty good?
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I think it's cool. I'm very biased because I'm in
the demographic.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
But it's a superhero kind of like a weird one,
like a scary one.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
It's a world in which magic exists but is highly
dangerous and highly regulated. Also, orcs, elves and other fantasy
creatures are real, but it's like a gritty street level
story about two cops.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Who get into starring William Smith.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yeah, sorry will Smith.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Joel Egger, did I remember? It was really fun? Like, uh,
I don't think I loved it, but I definitely didn't
have a bad time.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
It was a Netflix release, it was we love Netflix,
and I yeah, I love eating popcorn to it, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
It's funny. Guys. You look up Bright on the Internet
and this is I've noticed of late. The first thing
that comes up is was Bright a good movie? And
the Internet says that it was highly divisive but an
urban fantasy with a fascinating premise.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Yeah, I'm telling you, gritty street Level. If you if
you like comic book films, you're going to like brite.
And in that world, in that fictional world, there is,
just as you are describing NOL, a huge emphasis in
industry on controlling magical artifacts. That is not happening right now.
(33:20):
You can just go buy tarot cards, and I'm sure
there are very conservative religious institutions that are mad about that.
But if we also have on the other side, we
do have we do have independent organizations that will give
you some type of validation or credibility a certificate, but
(33:44):
you don't have to get it. It's all voluntary. Probably
one of the more famous ones is the Tarot Guild.
They will certify you to be a Tarot reader, a
Tarot professional, a Tarot Master, and a Tarot Grandmaster.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
A CTGM.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yeah, my kid's mom is into all this stuff pretty heavily,
and it fascinates me her level of knowledge on the subjects.
And she's not into tarot cards. She's into something called
oracle cards, which are get a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yes, the MTG deck I was telling you about, that's
an oracle deck, the one you can buy right now.
It's not. It's not a tarot deck. The D and
D one is a tarot deck.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah, it would appear that oracle cars are a little
less standardized and involve a little bit more intuitive based
readings rather than governed by you know, a certain set
of rules.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
I love it. What an awesome set up.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Well, yeah, we're talking a lot about what if you
get your fortune read by someone? Right, you go to
a service, somebody does your reading for you, or at
least interprets the cards you throw for you. I don't
I know if you guys found this. I have used
taro before. I don't put a lot of sand into it,
(35:07):
but I think it's a lot of fun. I have
found the most rewarding versions of this are when I
throw my own cards free, because because I don't need
someone else to interpret anything, I just I've got huge
lists of the meetings behind all of these different symbols
and all these things. Then I can kind of piece
together concepts and ideas about what I'm either troubled by
(35:29):
or thinking about. I'm actually kind of a fan of
that because it just becomes an exercise in introspection rather
than I don't know, fortune telling, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
The cards were right about this one, because we don't
have to be qualified quote unquote to conduct a reading.
Self reading is very common, extraordinarily common. And you know, again,
because of this issue about certification and accreditation, you might
be yelling in your car on Netflix right now and saying, hey, guy, guys,
(36:03):
I thought you said this stuff was working, and now
it sounds like you're telling me it's hogwash. This is
the thing. Okay. A lot of people are gonna dismiss
taro because of ties to occultism and superstition, but you
do not actually need any wo wo for taro to
be a valuable tool, which should probably get.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Into it well, like a psychological tool. But yeah, you
know a way, it's almost a form of I mean,
it requires a good practitioner, but it is about kind
of what you bring to it, and it can reveal
things almost in like a Rorschach test kind of fashion.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Maybe.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
Yeah, So some tarot proponents are going to argue that
the cards and your interaction with them function based on
what Carl Jung called synchronicity. Shout out to our old
alma matter how stuff works. According to Young, synchronicity explained
the guiding forces of the universe in a non linear way.
(37:03):
So things you might see as coincidence are actually signs
that help us guide our decisions and determine our paths
in life if we can recognize them. And that's where
it ties into like quantum mechanics. I think we're all
four of us fans of quantum mechanics, but we haven't
checked with Tennessee uh, Dylan, real quick, did you ever
(37:26):
use a tarot deck?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I have divined the tarot. I have some friends who
are into it. Yeah, and I felt okay as long
as I didn't get the tower? Oh wait, tower bad?
Speaker 4 (37:37):
The tower?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (37:40):
Okay, yeah, this is right ways up, so the other
way down is yeah, it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
The Hermitic Deck calls it the blasted Tower, and it
has a picture of the tower exploding.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Isn't that funny? A tower seems so innocuous and death
seems so bad. But apparently death is kind of neutral
or it's not inherently you know you're going to die
the death of what exactly? Thank you, Matt, thank you?
Speaker 4 (38:03):
And also, uh also Nolan, Matt, would death reverse not
be life?
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (38:11):
I'm really happy with this one.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Okay, So all right, can you reach by the way? Yes?
Speaker 4 (38:17):
Yeah, most people do, got it? Yeah? And this maybe
goes into quantum mechanics. It's a branch of physics that
explains the relationships of particles and they're seemingly inexplicable, interconnective entanglement, entanglement.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Sort of like Jada Pinkett Smith and her young lover.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
So what was it? I was an entanglement. Entanglements, there's
quants of entanglements. I mean, quantum mechanics is ultimately at
present it is a marriage of math, mystery and what
may as well be Arthur C. Clark level magic. So
it makes sense for us to understand that that some
(39:00):
people might say tarot cards are a symptom of quantum mechanics.
You're interacting with and observing these cards, so you may
be creating some timey whimy stuff that indicates probabilities. Still,
there's a problem with this, guys, because quantum mechanics teaches
(39:20):
us things like wave collapse, which means that, according to
the inherent principles of quantum mechanics, once you see the
possible outcomes in your tarot reading, you have collapsed the
wave of probability as you observed it. You have touched
it with your mind, so you may have changed your
own future by looking at your future. It's like the
(39:43):
butterfly effects, Yeah yeah, or anathem there you go.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, You'll potentially see things in the world around you
and connected back to a card that you threw, and
now you're going to change a decision that you were
going to make based on that card you saw, which
means who who is really changing fate there or you know,
deciding what your future is going to be? It is
(40:07):
it's probably you, but the card may actually influence what
you decide, which is weird to think about.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Obviously, more than a few statisticians, card sharks and skeptics
are going to immediately poopoo this idea, dismiss it entirely. Still,
I think it would be pretty epic, you guys, to
have a bunch of quantum physicists and get together and
do readings for each other, not self reads, you know
what I mean. Let's get the twelve weirdest, smartest physicists
(40:36):
in a room I don't know, give them a vice
of some sort too much coffee, and see what they
come up with. Thing is, if this synchronicity idea does
not bag your badgers, if it doesn't quite shuffle your deck,
how about we consider a more provable option, tarot is psychology.
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors,
(41:04):
and we've returned. This is by far the most plausible
explanation for why so many people swear by tarot cards
or feel that at least a few times, the mysterious
deck got something inexplicably right. What we're teasing there just
a few moments ago is the phenomenon known as retroactive rationalization.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
For sure. So let's just say, by way of example,
that you ask your deck a question. Doesn't really matter
what it is. But for our purposes here, let's go
with an old trustee. Will I meet the love of
my life? And in some amount of time after the
reading explosions happens, there she is across the room. You
(41:51):
see her, and you know you knew from the moment
you laid eyes on her. Counting exactly, thank you as
the longest number. It's a reason to believe. So you
have a whirlwind romance and then eventually you perhaps elope.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
Yeah it congratulations first off, if it's just happened to you. Also,
what we have to tell you is that your brain
will tend to conspire against you, and it will attempt
to discern patterns and connections between the past and present.
If you are human, your brain hates coincidence like hates it.
(42:29):
And if you are human, you descend from a very
long line of ancestors who use this obsession with pattern
recognition as a survival mechanism. You literally cannot escape this, folks.
You can only try to be aware of that primal urge.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
I mean, A good example of that that I've been
thinking about a lot lately is Betermeinhoff where you discover
a new word, a new concept here, a song for
the first time, and then all of a sudden, there
it is because you're brain. It's taking that new thing
you learned and finding it elsewhere in the world. And
you wouldn't have been looking for it, or your brain
(43:07):
wouldn't have been looking for it if you didn't really
know about it, or it hadn't piqued your interest of late.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
Yeah, it's a there's a real world try this at
home thing you can do, folks to see how tarot
cards can work. In terms of retroactive rationalization, it's called
the Benjamin Franklin effect. So let's say, here's the gist.
(43:34):
If you know someone who doesn't like you right, or
they're rude to you, or they're a bully or dismissive
or something like that, they're a bad coworker. If you
ask them for a small, easily accomplished favor, they will
tend to do so, and it will tend to improve
their opinion or estimation of you. This is a real hack.
(43:56):
This does work. So if you, for instance, politely and
sincerely ask a cranky co worker for something small, like, hey,
can I borrow a pen. Uh, they will probably give
you the thing if you're not a jerk when you're asking,
if you're diplomatic, and then later they will think, well,
(44:17):
I know I'm a good person and I do good stuff,
so I must have given so and so that pen
because they're not that bad either. It works.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Pens also, much like lighters, belong to the universe.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
There. Yeah, no one owns No one owns a good
book either.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
You can also talk to your cranky coworkers and maybe
work it out.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Just this, Yes, always seek the diplomatic option before resorting
to violence or penmanship.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Yes, I mean it's it's crazy because this proves that
a like people like people will tend to like someone
more when they ask them where they are asked for favor,
because it gives them this sort of heroic perspective of
themselves in some light. So we're only saying the Benjamin
Franklin effect because we couldn't work it into another show,
(45:13):
and because we wanted to prove this is part of
a psychological conspiracy perpetrated upon you by you. So in
the case of Tarot, this can usually be a pretty
wholesome conspiracy, Like do you guys remember all those fun
quizzes from earlier on the internet, like oh what animal?
(45:36):
And am I what's my anagram? What does my horoscope
say about me today? Did you guys ever play those?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
You mean, the how stuff works and their famous quizzes
that HowStuffWorks? Dot Com treating hundreds of thousands of quizzes.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Which were quite popular.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
It's true or we're you know, back to the days
of MySpace. Those kinds of Facebook would be ground zero
for a lot of this stuff. These things were all
over social media. Yeah, they turned out to be data heist,
but they were kind of fun because they gave the
test taker the participant, a new way of regarding themselves,
(46:18):
their relationships, and their decisions. Tarot's kind of the same thing.
Since I'm doing dated references, guys, remember the old magic
eye paintings.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Oh how could I forget? And the plot point in
the movie Malrats, or that one guy couldn't see the
magic Eye? It was the same, Oh I forgot, I
could never see them either. To be honest, they always
made my head hurt.
Speaker 4 (46:39):
Right, that's the thing, because our connection here is that
the magic eye pictures. Right, you had to lean in
real close and then slowly draw back right, and you
would see something that looked like a three D image.
The world around you is not changing when you ask
(47:00):
a question or pull a spread on a tarot card. Instead,
it is your internal mechanism that is transforming. Your perception
is changing, and you're prompted by a system of symbols
and meanings that are just vague enough for you to
start looking at things in a different way. You know
what I mean? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Guess absolutely it does. Recontextualizing your own story.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Oh yeah, that's a better way to put it all.
I mean, Blake, what if we ask an open ended question,
how will things work out with my newest relationship? You
do a reading or an expert conducts one for you.
These randomly drawn cards give new symbolism how you think
about the relationship. Maybe your first card is the Fool.
(47:46):
It's a very old one. I don't know if it's
visible here, but the fool is in a nice placement.
It means new adventures, new beginnings, et cetera, et cetera.
That might make you look at your immediate future in
a more optimistic light.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
I kind of wonder, too, though, how confirmation bias plays
into this and looking this up, just refamiliarizing myself about
the history of that. I didn't realize that it was
something that the philosopher Francis Bacon coined back in sixteen twenty,
and much like better Mainhoeff, this idea of seeking out
these patterns automatically without having to really, you know, think
(48:23):
about it at all. Our brains tend to glom onto
information and interpret it in such a way that confirms
the things we already believe and to reinforce maybe our
most positive versions of the way things way we want
things to go.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Benjamin Franklin in fact applied to the self, right. I mean, look,
it could sound like when we're explaining it this way
we are arguing against tarot cards. I would pause it.
We certainly are not, right, are we? All? Fans of these?
Speaker 3 (48:56):
I think they're beautiful. I love the design just strictly
from an art object perspective. I think they're really neat,
and all of this stuff is incredibly fascinating to me.
I don't know that I put any direct spiritual belief
into them, but I really love the psychology angle. And again,
I just am a fan of cool pieces of art,
and there's so many different ways of designing them and
(49:19):
interpreting them, and it's a cool thing to collect too.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
Frankly, Yeah, you think iconography is I.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Do like religious iconography, and there is something very while
not religious at heart. There are some images images on
the tarot cards, like the lovers is kind of Adam
and Eve like. I don't know, maybe they're not really
meant to be direct correlations with the Bible, but they
do come off as classic kind of religious iconography.
Speaker 4 (49:48):
Very much so. And look, we are we are like
you folks. Hopefully we are fascinated by the deep psychology
at play behind this ancient art of interpretive cartomancy. It's
fair to say this is good news. It's fair to say,
based on what we know of the human mind, the
(50:09):
magic was inside you all along, and the cards just
helped you see it. So that's one to grow on.
I don't know if we get a sound.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Q on that, that's one to grow on. Well whatever,
it was.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
So good guys.
Speaker 4 (50:27):
Okay, So as we're wrapping up, can I share a
surprise with you?
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Oh my gosh, please?
Speaker 4 (50:32):
Is it okay?
Speaker 3 (50:33):
I've been on the edge of my couch all the time.
Speaker 4 (50:36):
Oh man, all right, So I invented my own system
of Tarot cards, and I'm still working on it. These
are kind of the things that I've been holding up while.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Are you asking your cranky coworkers for a favor?
Speaker 4 (50:54):
Ben, I am not, Matt, I am doing.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Are you sure?
Speaker 4 (50:59):
I am sure?
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Are you trying to do a little tricksies?
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Oh? No, no, you.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Made these?
Speaker 4 (51:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (51:07):
These are awesome, dude, amazing man.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Yeah, So I think people should be able to invent
their own systems of Tarot carts. This one has, in
addition to the major arcana, it has nine suits of
minor arcana. I have a lot of friends outside stops.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
You got us, buddy, you got us. I think those
are dope, man. And again case and point to what
I was saying a minute ago. I love how it's
so open for interpretation. Not only that's my favorite. Oh yeah,
what is that one? The three of candles?
Speaker 4 (51:41):
Yes? He oh, you're good at this, helly.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah. I mean they're so open to not only interpretation
in the readings, but in the interpretation of individuals to
create their own kind of language around this stuff. And
I think that's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
I mean, we have huge fans of tarot as a
concept in the audience tonight. Thank you for joining us.
We have hard skeptics here as well. Thank you for
joining us too. Wherever you fall on the spectrum, we
want to know about your experiences and friends and neighbors.
Let us know if we should create a custom stuff
they don't want you to know, Tarot deck. I don't know, guys,
(52:19):
are we up for.
Speaker 3 (52:21):
Ben Let's just say you are.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
Let's just stuff they don't want you know. There's a
different thing.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Okay, Well, I mean, you know, we support it, but
we could, we could, we could put our heads together
on something like that. I'm into it. I think that's
a fun idea.
Speaker 4 (52:34):
Well, right to accounting. Yeah, have you ever had a
reading that blew your mind? Or if you had a
reading that went spectacularly wrong? Or just a what is
this like? Knowle's earlier encounter with the use Guy's psychic h.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
The infamous Use Guy's Psychic of Williamsburg.
Speaker 4 (52:54):
The infamous Use Guy's Psychic of Williamsburg. Maybe there is
some stuff the tarot cards. I don't want you to know.
We want to know. Let us hear your thoughts. Let
us read your thoughts. You can find us on the lines.
You can call us on the phone, You can always
send us an email.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
Do all those things, and if you do wish to
find us on the lines, do so by reaching out
to the handle Conspiracy Stuff our Conspiracy Stuff show.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
If you want to give us a call, our number
is one eight three three std WYTK. When you call in,
give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if
we can use your name and message on the air.
And tell us what you think about this wheel of fortune?
What are the different symbols in here? What do they
mean to you? My hand is all shaky, so good
luck to you actually understanding it. That's the wheel of fortune.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
You went bankrupt spirit.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
If you want to send us an email, we are.
Speaker 4 (53:44):
The entities that read each piece of correspondence we receive.
Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void wrights back,
so we'll see you out here in the dark. Let
us know if you have designed your own tarot part system,
and let's hang out conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello, welcome back to the show. Is this your card?
My name is Matt.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Now, yeah, my name is Noah, and this is not
my card.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagott. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. And tonight, fellow conspiracy realists,
we are exploring something we, oddly enough, have not covered
for quite some time. Over almost two decades. We never
(00:56):
got to tarot cards.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
How is that even possible?
Speaker 4 (00:58):
And we read the cards. We have very good news.
You could see a picture of the shore. Here. We
are hanging out on a stuff themed Virgin Voyages cruise
this October. Guys couldn't be more excited.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
And by stuff we mean all of the shows with
stuff in the name, not all, but some of our
favorites and some of our best friends, Josh and Chuck.
Stuff you shouldn't know, right, Stuff they don't.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Want you to know will be joined by the dal
Moodies themselves, Josh and Chuck.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Oh my gosh, yes, I'm so excited. Also, stuff, Mom
never told you what are stuffs?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
The best stuff is going to be you on the
cruise with us because we get to hang out, like
actually just hang out.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
On the show.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Sometimes we even go off the ship to do things
in Bermuda. What yes with you? Shall we excure? We
can't wait for you to join us. From October second
to the seventh, we're heading out of New York. We're
going through the Caribbean. We could not be more excited.
Let's see, I got another water tarot card here. Have
(02:04):
you guys ever used tarot cards?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Well, it's funny you should ask ben. I very recently
had my first ever professional tarot reading. I was in
New York City hanging out with a friend and we
decided to try one out. And so we found a
place that was in the walking distance and it wasn't cheap,
and it was quite bad and my house well it
(02:29):
just it was if it was cold reading, it wasn't
very adept cold reading. The person did say that I
maybe give too much information, like just as a person,
that I maybe should play things a little closer to
the vest. And I don't know, but it's kind of
funny to say that, considering that you're asking me questions
(02:49):
and I'm answering the questions for you of my ability.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
So I felt a little like yeah at a little bit,
and you said they were very New York as well.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
New York is as the cheesecake. My friend, I literally said,
you're referring to me and my and my my companion
as use guys, and ironically and just saying use use
refer it was I felt like I was getting cold
red by Tony Soprano.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Watched that episode. I would watch.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Soprano Fortune Teller. That's a new spin off, all right,
James Gandolfini, though can't really make that happen. Maybe Chrissy
could do it.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
No, just as uh as more information and please please
don't give too much. Oh what were you wearing when
you when you went to get your tarot red?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I was wearing a hoodie, a zip up hoodie and
a nice button down shirt that was not revealed because
of said hoodie.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Okay, okay, so you were wearing clothing.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Anything about below the belt? My friends, and I am
I'm not going to do impress me on that. No, No,
I was wearing a pant of some sort ofaloon.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
No, I'm only asking you because, as we're going to
get into this conversation, a lot of what occurs within
a reading, within you know, an encounter with someone that's
going to be providing that kind of service with you,
occurs before any words are spoken. Oh yeah, yes, when
the eyes are on you when you walk through a door.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Well, funny enough, this clearly was a family business because
we looked in the window and the door was locked,
and we kind of had to get people's attention. At
first we thought they were maybe doing a private event
in the back room, but we realized it was just
the fam kicking it waiting for a customer to approach.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
That's how you know what's legit.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Oh, that's what that was my thinking. Initially. Ben Yeh
sad to report did not find it to be particularly compelling.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Well, maybe it's a legitimate rift. Compare it to that's
like a jumbo shrimp, right, yeah, there, it is quite paradoxical.
Let's compare it to how you know a restaurant is
solid if the people who work at the restaurant have
their kids behind the counter doing homework. That's you know, like.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
That's a low key guy Chinese establishment. Perhaps it would
be my experience with that.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Yeah, So we have talked about Tarot cards off air
because we are actually friends folks outside of Netflix or
outside of your favorite podcast platform, and this has always
baffled us. There's a very important question that we want
to address tonight, which is this, what if tarot cards
(05:28):
actually work? What do we mean by work and what
would it mean for the world if tarot cards do
what they say on the tin. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsors. Here are the facts.
(05:50):
Word of the day cartomancy. Cartomancy is the fancy word
for telling the future, or fortune telling, or divination through
the use of any kind of paper card.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yeah, it makes me think of the word another portmanteau.
I guess then maybe a card. No, I think kind
of is car cardistry? Referring to these folks on the
internet who like do all these crazy magic shuffle tricks
undred percent, one could potentially combine cardistry and cartomancy into
cartoman mantistry.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I love it, admit. What Wait?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
What is that?
Speaker 4 (06:29):
Wait? What was that we got to wait till the end,
all right, I got it looks.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Right, Oh dude, it looks like some kind of Nickelodeon
tarot card. It looks awesome.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
So we know that for a long time, ever since
the invention of cards, or really the invention of any technology,
people have attempted to predict the future or learn more
about the world around them through that thing like pyromancy,
predict in the future through fire right, gaining knowledge in
(07:03):
a prometheum way. We also know there are these things
called tarot games. So the very first, like the ancestor
of the modern tarot deck that you're going to run
into now if you're in the West, are going to
come to you via Italy from about the fourteen thirties CE.
(07:25):
This is when taro was first known as twunthy. Someone
helped me out, who's better? Which of us is the
best at Italian triphi triomphy? Yeah, there it is. That's good.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So this this thing is
so old that researchers from Yale made their bones on it. Sorry,
(07:48):
Sopranos is in my head now.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Throwing bones if it might which as well.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
A well, gone give it, guys, well done, and I
think there should be a tarot based Italian brain rot
Trioni Tortllini perhaps.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh no, please don't, I did it.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
It's too late, man happening. I will did it to existence.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
So we know that researchers from Yale did some very
clever watermark forensics to definitively date probably the world's oldest
tarot deck or the world's oldest modern ancestor that goes
back to fourteen thirty seven or fourteen forty two, somewhere
(08:35):
between there, and at that time, folks. As weird as
it will sound, the earliest tarot cards and the earliest
decks were basically a game for idle aristocrats and super
wealthy people.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
I've always wondered about that because they do kind of
have suits and associated numbers in a similar way to
you know, a fifty two card playing card deck.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah, you said, forensic water marking, Ben, I've only heard
of that in like the digital rights management world and
the stuff of you know, tech nowadays. I've never thought
of it as in potentially I'm assuming we're actually talking
about water marks here, maybe, or maybe paper the paper
(09:23):
that was used to create them.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
The age of the paper, the age of the ink,
the indentations, which can also tell us about the creation
process at the time.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Dang, I don't know how I didn't know about that
as a term and as a thing. That is so cool.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Look, man, if you were in the Ivory Tower, you
have to really focus in on your area of expertise.
So these folks chose tarot guards.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
You know. What it also kind of relates to is
a real good plumber will use forensic water marking to
trace the provenance of a leak. So it's similar set
of skills. You know, you're basically like your you're a
water detec.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Yes. So these clever boffins have figured out that what
we call tarot cards in the modern iteration probably do
date back to Italy in the early fifteenth century. And
these cards, again, we cannot emphasize this enough. These cards
(10:22):
again were a game for very wealthy people, the one
percenters of various Italian regions in the day. They expanded
from there throughout Europe with other rich people meeting each
other essentially right and from Italy we see other countries
(10:43):
other regions occasionally putting their own spin upon things. So
the modern standard tarot deck that you might be shuffling now.
Is probably based on the Venetian or Piedmontese tarot. That's
going to be seventy eight cards divided between the twenty
two card major arcana and the fifty six card minor
(11:07):
ar kana. And we know what major arcana is, right,
that's where that's where you get something that has like
a face on it in a certain direction, and it'd
be up or down, and it could be you're right,
it could be up or down. And we have the
minor arcana. The other fifty six cards. They're usually going
to come to you in four suits, wands, cups, swords,
(11:32):
or pentacles. Sometimes those are also circles or coins.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
And you may be thinking that sounds so familiar. There's
four different types of the card that you could get, right, hmmm,
I swear I've played a game like that before with cars.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Are you talking about Pokemon?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
No? No, I'm just talking about clubs and spades.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I thought you were talking about the different evolutions of
particular Pokemon, because I believe through valid or are there
only three? Maybe only three? Sorry?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
The Magician is only a basic uh Pokemon? What does
it become?
Speaker 3 (12:13):
Ben becomes the Magician? Might become the sorcerer, right.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
And then levels up to the tower.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
There's always the higher refin. Let me see, I got
a tower card here, I think, uh, but we uh
will while I'm looking for the tower card. Sorry, guys,
Uh okay, we're going to keep that one. Uh while
we're looking for the tower card. We need to ask
why and how this evolved from a regular garden variety
(12:45):
or court game variety card game into a tool of divination.
The answer probably dates back to French occultist in the
eighteenth century. From what we know about them. They started
to spin tales in the seventeen hundreds and they were saying, oh,
(13:06):
this is an ancient art descended from Egypt or Greece
or and they were cold reading right Noel Matt, Like
you guys said earlier, they saw someone walk into the room,
they looked at how they were dressed and how they
were moving, and they were like, this guy loves Egypt.
Let's tell them this stuff is Egyptian. So they made
(13:27):
it exotic, and they made it seem ancient, and they
definitely embellished it. The problem is their stories are untrue.
From everything we can find, the origin story of the
taro is fourteen hundreds in Italy and it's pretty popular
(13:48):
in the modern day. Statistically, Folks, you or someone you
know has a tarot deck at home right now as
we record on May fourth, twenty twenty six, May the
Fourth be with you.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Well, the one I was flashing up, that's all. It
looks holographic, this little thing. This is based on a
dude named Arthur Edward Wait, who was this very fascinating
dude who was into the occult and he had involvement
in the Golden Dawn that we've met about before.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Order at the Golden Dawn.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Mm hmm, my favorite class from Elden Ring.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Well, then it's really interesting how what you're saying, what
we're talking about here is that other people who have
made further decks, who or who've created newer decks. Right,
he Wait passed away in nineteen forty two, but he
was around since eighteen fifty seven. As people make different
decks they might find somewhere at like an esoteric bookstore
(14:48):
or something, often have symbols and meaning way different or
beyond the meanings that Ben you're describing here that were
originally a part of the decks, like the Hermitic order
one as its own thing going on that is completely
separate or much separate from those original decks.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
One hundred percent. Yeah, because in the original tarot decks,
which were part of what we call tarot games, the
major arcata are considered trump cards, right, They're considered big
deal of face cards. They're not about your future, They're
about winning the game. And taro is now increasingly anomalous
(15:28):
in this very secular world it has. It's interesting because
it hasn't been vilified as much as other recent inventions
like the Ouija board. So people, if you talk to
them here in the West, especially, they're often gonna say
tarot cards are a fun diversion. And other people do
take their readings quite seriously. They might read cards for themselves,
(15:52):
their friends, or to know your point earlier. They might
have regular clients. That person who use guys do through
divination may have people who check in every week. And
we have to ask, was this person using the writer
weight taro.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
It's the traditional one that I'm used to seeing. Yeah,
so yeah, I think the basic og one. And of course,
like you know, like you said, uh, inversions mean something.
It was a it was a couple's reading. It involved
a lot more cards on the table than I'm used
to seeing, But again I don't really know enough to
know if they were doing it quote unquote right, you know.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
But it didn't look like a Celtic cross or Celtic cross. Yeah. Okay,
So writer Weight, which should be called writer weaight Smith.
That version of the Tarot Deck is first published in
nineteen o nine by a guy named William Ryder and
Son or a publishing outfit, and it was based on
the opinions of a guy named A Weight. It's illustrated
(16:59):
by Amla Colman Smith. Now, Weight was an academic of note,
and similar to Parsons, he was also very much an
occultist when that was still seen as something that would
not remove scientific credibility. They were both both Weight and
(17:20):
Smith are members of what we mentioned, the hermetic Order
of the Golden Down.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Dude, this is Weight guy is so fascinating because not
only was he hanging out in the Golden Dawn, he's
a rose Crucian or the Societas rose Crusiana, uh whatever
it is. But he was a part of that. But
he was also a Freemason. Right, So we're when we're
saying in occultest, this dude, is all about some of
these secret societies, some of these groups that are pretty
(17:48):
close knit. You're not allowed to know the stuff unless
you become a member and you work your way up.
Similar to what was what was this story? It just
came out guys, speed running scientificlogy.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Yes, you can't.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
You can't get it. You can't become a rose crucion
in the way that Weight was if you just open
a door and run through a couple of hallways.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
Yeah, because they don't have the same audit machine. Their
rituals are quite complex, uh and take a long time
and have a lot of sex.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Oh well, well, in the things that I'm talking about with
weight right now, I'm just imagining there is so much
information that gets that gets crushed down into let's say,
a single symbol if you're in the Hermetic Order of
the Golden Dawn, that that one symbol has so much
(18:41):
meaning it can mean various things. Then you add another
symbol next to it, and now you've changed the meaning
of the original one, and you can make these like
endlessly complex concepts just with different symbols, which is what
they do on this other Tarot deck. And it's very
interesting to me thinking about someone in interested in the
occult in this way, guys, as in you are laying
(19:05):
symbols on top of symbols and creating even more complexity.
And then just how that could translate back into someone
giving you a cold reading with a card like let's
say the magician from their medic order. It's got it's
hard to see right here, but if you like pause
that maybe for a second, you can see all of
the different symbols that a reader someone performing the thing
(19:28):
that they did for you, nol. They could pull from
any one of those symbols and apply it somehow to you.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Yeah, it's interpretation. And while the writer weight I think
we should call it the writer weight Smith Tarot decks.
It's far and away the most popular deck in the West,
but you will find no shortage of other decks in
the game with their own spin on things, like you'll
see the modern Witch tarot deck that uses custom contemporary
(19:58):
artwork based on the riginal system, magical or mechanical, whatever
you want to call it. Also thought of you, Matt,
because while capitalism is pretty in style right now, you
will see tons of bespoke tarot decks that are branded partnerships.
You'll see themed decks for all sorts of stuff, all
(20:19):
sorts of films, your favorite novels. And this is why
I thought of all our fellow Magic the Gathering fans.
It's similar to how the Wizards of the Coast years
back said, let's take MTG across other intellectual properties. Let's
make a Spider Man release, Let's make a Lord of
the Rings.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Release, Ninja Turtles perhaps, yes, yes, you see that Wizards
is doing that. Matt claravoyance in a half shell with
magic cards?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Who thought that already came out great pre release? I
was surprised. It was that.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You know that that muscleman guy Malibu, that guy on
the internet, he loves the magic cards and he was
he was going to the shop and buying the new
Turtles decks.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
And that is exactly what tarot cards are doing in
the West. And we'll get into why before we Before
we really get into whether these things work, we should,
in the interest of fairness, talked about how to conduct
a tarot reading.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
We should, But can we just acknowledge that there is
a Dungeons and Dragons tarot deck that you can get
right now. It's and it looks amazing. There's also an
MTG tarot deck. You can buy it right now. I
didn't know that, man, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
So okay, awesome. We're going to read the cards and
I can already sense a disturbance in the universe. Several
of us in the audience just lost a lot of money,
uh thanks to magic the gather.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
They keep threatening to get involved, and every time I do,
Matt just says, I hope you got a bunch of
disposable income.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I'm like, oh, yes, it's like time mostly time. You
gotta have a lot of.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
So we'll keep the explanation about how to do a
tarot reading very simple. Think of the major arcana in
your weight deck as the major life event things the
minor arcana. Those four suits can be thought to deal
with more like day to day stuff. So if you
(22:21):
are a beginner, right, if you square one day one stuff, buddy,
then you start with a yes or no question, is
my financial situation going to take a positive direction? Is
my current or future relationship going to work out? This
is a super great way to begin dipping your toes
into a deck before you graduate to more abstract open
(22:45):
ended queries. So a lot of people are going to
start with a three card spread. Three card spread, you
take random cards from the deck and you pull one
to represent maybe the past, the present, the future.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
One thing that I have heard and I was taught
is that it is vitally important that the only person
touching touching that is the person that is being read for. Essentially,
you are the target because you are putting your intention
into the cars as you shuffle them and move them
around and then potentially make those selections. So if we're
(23:25):
talking about fate right versus free will versus, how does
that play into the actual reading itself? If you put
any sand in it at all, It's important that you're
the one doing it, not you know, the person reading
for you.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Yeah, you don't want to get mixed energies, you know
in the equation.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Yeah, let's get to that part. And also we what
to acknowledge before we get to that that. Other popular,
more advanced spreads or constellations or arrangements are going to
be things like the Celtic Cross. That's a specific layout
of ten cards. You'll see that pretty often. We've got
a picture here in the outline as well. This is
(24:03):
very common, and there are also countless variations on these approaches,
So if you are working with tarot cards for your
first time, you can also learn the rules and then
you can make up arrangements or patterns or discover arrangements
or patterns that feel meaningful to you, and you should
(24:24):
feel free to do so. But whatever approach you take,
the rules for getting started are pretty simple. Find a quiet,
peaceful place seen and setting right, just like hallucinogens, be
in a relaxed state of mind. And if you are
past the beginning phase, it's better to ask an open
ended question and then really visualize it as you're shuffling.
(24:49):
You know what I mean. The pro level tarot folks
are going to tell you that yes or no questions
are okay if you're a beginner, but a more broad
question will really get your deck room to maneuver and articulate.
And like old magic, which is I would argue weaponized psychology,
you have to think while you shuffle with real intention.
(25:12):
This transfers your energy into the cards. For the true believers,
and that is part of why people get so squirrely
about other folks touching their decks. You have to cleanse
it right with incense or a ritual of some sort
or peep just too. No Ah, Yes, you're talking about
(25:32):
the weight and p deck.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
That's right. Yes, Well, if you want to go a
little more hermetic order of the Golden Dawn with it,
you could put other yep substances on it.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
You sure could. It might mess up your shuffle. So yeah,
to your best, were.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
You talking about blood and semen?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
We are?
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Yeah, yeah, maybe a little, maybe a couple boogers too.
Check out our upcoming episode on Alistair Crowley. So lay
these cards out after you shuffle them and you've given
them your intention in whatever arrangement you have chosen. Walk
through the meanings of the cards in both their placement,
(26:12):
their significance to you, and their relationship importantly to one another.
A Tarot card guide is great for this. It also
often comes along with the modern tarot dec You might
buy and then whila viola. If everything works according to plan,
you're gonna feel like you've gained insight into your inquiry.
(26:35):
Maybe you feel you received a prediction from beyond or
communication from someone in your past, living or dead, or
maybe you just got further clarity on a difficult decision.
A lot of people consider it interesting and fun, but
also a ton of people do take these results seriously.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Can I just confirm that you said viola and voila?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Okay, Okay, I like.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Say and I like doing both of the mean I've
made it up for this. We'll see if it ends
up being a thing. But I could see it get cartoons.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I like it a lot.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Well, so we know that, uh, we know that people
may make major life decisions based on what they feel
they've gleaned right from their cards. And now we get
to the major arcana of the question, do tarot cards
actually work? We'll be back afterword from our sponsors. Here's
(27:42):
where it gets crazy. We don't often get to say this,
but yes, tarot cards work sort of. It depends on
what we mean by work. I mean there are loads
of people who believe a tarot deck has actively predicted
their future or given them some epiphany or revelation some sort.
(28:03):
But there's no hard, reproducible scientific study proving that to
be anything more than coincidence or self guided behavior. Right, Like,
here's a thought experiment. What guys, what if we cast
ethics aside and we tested the accuracy of tarot cards
(28:25):
by having people that we knew were going to die,
like death row inmates, and we had a reading right
before they were executed, and we saw how often the
death card comes up.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Right on.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Should we hmm? Should we do one for Cole Allen?
But he's in jail right now for the attempted assassination
of the president.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
It's so funny. I didn't even clock that dude's name.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, and he's probably not safe.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Tower, I would think not.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Yeah. Also, uh, do we think.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
That we're going to talk about it and listener?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure I was talking to with
some folks earlier about that one.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
I'm intrigued.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Chat Okay, but you guys see what I'm saying about
that exercise That ethics aside, that would be a good
way to see whether there is something beating statistics. I mean, gentlemen,
we know there are dozens of problems with conducting scientific
evaluations of Tarot card efficacy. The meanings are open to interpretation.
(29:37):
The reader interpreter can stack the odds. So if, for example,
like our pal Nole, you go to a professional psychic
or fortune teller, they may practice cold readings, so they're
picking up on sub or unconscious clues from you from
their client. They're bending their interpretation, possibly to what they
(29:59):
think the client needs to hear. That's kind of unethical,
not saying all these folks or drifters, but riddled me this.
How do you get certified to be a Tarot card reader?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Now this I did not know about.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Ben.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
I guess I assumed, as with most things, there's some
sort of maybe not governing body, but an association of sorts.
But I've never really taken the time to look into it.
So I think this is going to be educational for
a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, this is really cool stuff. Look, it's very interesting
to me personally. I think it's a cool thing that
you can do kind of in the same way you
can get YouTube certified, you know, or you can get
certified to use specific things. You can become an official
like Wizards of the Coast, Magic the Gathering player or
(30:45):
judge or things like that. I think it's cool that
something that there are places you can go both physically
and online to become a reader with like a certificate
you could put in the background.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
You definitely could get a certificate. We don't have, uh,
we have a ton of them in the background now.
But it's similar to being a ufologist or being a medium.
There is no mandatory accreditation, there's no mandatory ethics committee
that will judge you because tarot is not regulated. So
(31:18):
you don't need a license or a degree to buy
a deck right if you order one online right now,
or you go to a shop, they're not going to
ask you to see your paperwork. It's not treated the
same way as say, buy it the firearm, or prescribing
people drugs.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Can you imagine though, if if quote unquote spiritualist or
magical artifacts like that were governed by some sort of
like regulatory body, that's the kind of stuff you think.
I guess that's like Harry Potter type stuff, you know,
a study of magic.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
Did you ever see h Do you ever see the
Netflix film? Right?
Speaker 3 (31:55):
You know it didn't, But is it pretty good?
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I think it's cool. I'm very biased because I'm in
the demographic.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
But it's a superhero kind of like a weird one,
like a scary one.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
It's a world in which magic exists but is highly
dangerous and highly regulated. Also, orcs, elves and other fantasy
creatures are real, but it's like a gritty street level
story about two cops.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Who get into starring William Smith.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yeah, sorry will Smith.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Joel Egger, did I remember? It was really fun? Like, uh,
I don't think I loved it, but I definitely didn't
have a bad time.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
It was a Netflix release, it was we love Netflix,
and I yeah, I love eating popcorn to it, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
It's funny. Guys. You look up Bright on the Internet
and this is I've noticed of late. The first thing
that comes up is was Bright a good movie? And
the Internet says that it was highly divisive but an
urban fantasy with a fascinating premise.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Yeah, I'm telling you, gritty street Level. If you if
you like comic book films, you're going to like brite.
And in that world, in that fictional world, there is,
just as you are describing NOL, a huge emphasis in
industry on controlling magical artifacts. That is not happening right now.
(33:20):
You can just go buy tarot cards, and I'm sure
there are very conservative religious institutions that are mad about that.
But if we also have on the other side, we
do have we do have independent organizations that will give
you some type of validation or credibility a certificate, but
(33:44):
you don't have to get it. It's all voluntary. Probably
one of the more famous ones is the Tarot Guild.
They will certify you to be a Tarot reader, a
Tarot professional, a Tarot Master, and a Tarot Grandmaster.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
A CTGM.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yeah, my kid's mom is into all this stuff pretty heavily,
and it fascinates me her level of knowledge on the subjects.
And she's not into tarot cards. She's into something called
oracle cards, which are get a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yes, the MTG deck I was telling you about, that's
an oracle deck, the one you can buy right now.
It's not. It's not a tarot deck. The D and
D one is a tarot deck.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Yeah, it would appear that oracle cars are a little
less standardized and involve a little bit more intuitive based
readings rather than governed by you know, a certain set
of rules.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
I love it. What an awesome set up.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Well, yeah, we're talking a lot about what if you
get your fortune read by someone? Right, you go to
a service, somebody does your reading for you, or at
least interprets the cards you throw for you. I don't
I know if you guys found this. I have used
taro before. I don't put a lot of sand into it,
(35:07):
but I think it's a lot of fun. I have
found the most rewarding versions of this are when I
throw my own cards free, because because I don't need
someone else to interpret anything, I just I've got huge
lists of the meetings behind all of these different symbols
and all these things. Then I can kind of piece
together concepts and ideas about what I'm either troubled by
(35:29):
or thinking about. I'm actually kind of a fan of
that because it just becomes an exercise in introspection rather
than I don't know, fortune telling, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
The cards were right about this one, because we don't
have to be qualified quote unquote to conduct a reading.
Self reading is very common, extraordinarily common. And you know, again,
because of this issue about certification and accreditation, you might
be yelling in your car on Netflix right now and saying, hey, guy, guys,
(36:03):
I thought you said this stuff was working, and now
it sounds like you're telling me it's hogwash. This is
the thing. Okay. A lot of people are gonna dismiss
taro because of ties to occultism and superstition, but you
do not actually need any wo wo for taro to
be a valuable tool, which should probably get.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Into it well, like a psychological tool. But yeah, you
know a way, it's almost a form of I mean,
it requires a good practitioner, but it is about kind
of what you bring to it, and it can reveal
things almost in like a Rorschach test kind of fashion.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Maybe.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
Yeah, So some tarot proponents are going to argue that
the cards and your interaction with them function based on
what Carl Jung called synchronicity. Shout out to our old
alma matter how stuff works. According to Young, synchronicity explained
the guiding forces of the universe in a non linear way.
(37:03):
So things you might see as coincidence are actually signs
that help us guide our decisions and determine our paths
in life if we can recognize them. And that's where
it ties into like quantum mechanics. I think we're all
four of us fans of quantum mechanics, but we haven't
checked with Tennessee uh, Dylan, real quick, did you ever
(37:26):
use a tarot deck?
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I have divined the tarot. I have some friends who
are into it. Yeah, and I felt okay as long
as I didn't get the tower? Oh wait, tower bad?
Speaker 4 (37:37):
The tower?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (37:40):
Okay, yeah, this is right ways up, so the other
way down is yeah, it's a thing.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
The Hermitic Deck calls it the blasted Tower, and it
has a picture of the tower exploding.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Isn't that funny? A tower seems so innocuous and death
seems so bad. But apparently death is kind of neutral
or it's not inherently you know you're going to die
the death of what exactly? Thank you, Matt, thank you?
Speaker 4 (38:03):
And also, uh also Nolan, Matt, would death reverse not
be life?
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (38:11):
I'm really happy with this one.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Okay, So all right, can you reach by the way? Yes?
Speaker 4 (38:17):
Yeah, most people do, got it? Yeah? And this maybe
goes into quantum mechanics. It's a branch of physics that
explains the relationships of particles and they're seemingly inexplicable, interconnective entanglement, entanglement.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Sort of like Jada Pinkett Smith and her young lover.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
So what was it? I was an entanglement. Entanglements, there's
quants of entanglements. I mean, quantum mechanics is ultimately at
present it is a marriage of math, mystery and what
may as well be Arthur C. Clark level magic. So
it makes sense for us to understand that that some
(39:00):
people might say tarot cards are a symptom of quantum mechanics.
You're interacting with and observing these cards, so you may
be creating some timey whimy stuff that indicates probabilities. Still,
there's a problem with this, guys, because quantum mechanics teaches
(39:20):
us things like wave collapse, which means that, according to
the inherent principles of quantum mechanics, once you see the
possible outcomes in your tarot reading, you have collapsed the
wave of probability as you observed it. You have touched
it with your mind, so you may have changed your
own future by looking at your future. It's like the
(39:43):
butterfly effects, Yeah yeah, or anathem there you go.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, You'll potentially see things in the world around you
and connected back to a card that you threw, and
now you're going to change a decision that you were
going to make based on that card you saw, which
means who who is really changing fate there or you know,
deciding what your future is going to be? It is
(40:07):
it's probably you, but the card may actually influence what
you decide, which is weird to think about.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Obviously, more than a few statisticians, card sharks and skeptics
are going to immediately poopoo this idea, dismiss it entirely. Still,
I think it would be pretty epic, you guys, to
have a bunch of quantum physicists and get together and
do readings for each other, not self reads, you know
what I mean. Let's get the twelve weirdest, smartest physicists
(40:36):
in a room I don't know, give them a vice
of some sort too much coffee, and see what they
come up with. Thing is, if this synchronicity idea does
not bag your badgers, if it doesn't quite shuffle your deck,
how about we consider a more provable option, tarot is psychology.
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors,
(41:04):
and we've returned. This is by far the most plausible
explanation for why so many people swear by tarot cards
or feel that at least a few times, the mysterious
deck got something inexplicably right. What we're teasing there just
a few moments ago is the phenomenon known as retroactive rationalization.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
For sure. So let's just say, by way of example,
that you ask your deck a question. Doesn't really matter
what it is. But for our purposes here, let's go
with an old trustee. Will I meet the love of
my life? And in some amount of time after the
reading explosions happens, there she is across the room. You
(41:51):
see her, and you know you knew from the moment
you laid eyes on her. Counting exactly, thank you as
the longest number. It's a reason to believe. So you
have a whirlwind romance and then eventually you perhaps elope.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
Yeah it congratulations first off, if it's just happened to you. Also,
what we have to tell you is that your brain
will tend to conspire against you, and it will attempt
to discern patterns and connections between the past and present.
If you are human, your brain hates coincidence like hates it.
(42:29):
And if you are human, you descend from a very
long line of ancestors who use this obsession with pattern
recognition as a survival mechanism. You literally cannot escape this, folks.
You can only try to be aware of that primal urge.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
I mean, A good example of that that I've been
thinking about a lot lately is Betermeinhoff where you discover
a new word, a new concept here, a song for
the first time, and then all of a sudden, there
it is because you're brain. It's taking that new thing
you learned and finding it elsewhere in the world. And
you wouldn't have been looking for it, or your brain
(43:07):
wouldn't have been looking for it if you didn't really
know about it, or it hadn't piqued your interest of late.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
Yeah, it's a there's a real world try this at
home thing you can do, folks to see how tarot
cards can work. In terms of retroactive rationalization, it's called
the Benjamin Franklin effect. So let's say, here's the gist.
(43:34):
If you know someone who doesn't like you right, or
they're rude to you, or they're a bully or dismissive
or something like that, they're a bad coworker. If you
ask them for a small, easily accomplished favor, they will
tend to do so, and it will tend to improve
their opinion or estimation of you. This is a real hack.
(43:56):
This does work. So if you, for instance, politely and
sincerely ask a cranky co worker for something small, like, hey,
can I borrow a pen. Uh, they will probably give
you the thing if you're not a jerk when you're asking,
if you're diplomatic, and then later they will think, well,
(44:17):
I know I'm a good person and I do good stuff,
so I must have given so and so that pen
because they're not that bad either. It works.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Pens also, much like lighters, belong to the universe.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
There. Yeah, no one owns No one owns a good
book either.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
You can also talk to your cranky coworkers and maybe
work it out.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Just this, Yes, always seek the diplomatic option before resorting
to violence or penmanship.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Yes, I mean it's it's crazy because this proves that
a like people like people will tend to like someone
more when they ask them where they are asked for favor,
because it gives them this sort of heroic perspective of
themselves in some light. So we're only saying the Benjamin
Franklin effect because we couldn't work it into another show,
(45:13):
and because we wanted to prove this is part of
a psychological conspiracy perpetrated upon you by you. So in
the case of Tarot, this can usually be a pretty
wholesome conspiracy, Like do you guys remember all those fun
quizzes from earlier on the internet, like oh what animal?
(45:36):
And am I what's my anagram? What does my horoscope
say about me today? Did you guys ever play those?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
You mean, the how stuff works and their famous quizzes
that HowStuffWorks? Dot Com treating hundreds of thousands of quizzes.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Which were quite popular.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
It's true or we're you know, back to the days
of MySpace. Those kinds of Facebook would be ground zero
for a lot of this stuff. These things were all
over social media. Yeah, they turned out to be data heist,
but they were kind of fun because they gave the
test taker the participant, a new way of regarding themselves,
(46:18):
their relationships, and their decisions. Tarot's kind of the same thing.
Since I'm doing dated references, guys, remember the old magic
eye paintings.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Oh how could I forget? And the plot point in
the movie Malrats, or that one guy couldn't see the
magic Eye? It was the same, Oh I forgot, I
could never see them either. To be honest, they always
made my head hurt.
Speaker 4 (46:39):
Right, that's the thing, because our connection here is that
the magic eye pictures. Right, you had to lean in
real close and then slowly draw back right, and you
would see something that looked like a three D image.
The world around you is not changing when you ask
(47:00):
a question or pull a spread on a tarot card. Instead,
it is your internal mechanism that is transforming. Your perception
is changing, and you're prompted by a system of symbols
and meanings that are just vague enough for you to
start looking at things in a different way. You know
what I mean? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (47:21):
Guess absolutely it does. Recontextualizing your own story.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Oh yeah, that's a better way to put it all.
I mean, Blake, what if we ask an open ended question,
how will things work out with my newest relationship? You
do a reading or an expert conducts one for you.
These randomly drawn cards give new symbolism how you think
about the relationship. Maybe your first card is the Fool.
(47:46):
It's a very old one. I don't know if it's
visible here, but the fool is in a nice placement.
It means new adventures, new beginnings, et cetera, et cetera.
That might make you look at your immediate future in
a more optimistic light.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
I kind of wonder, too, though, how confirmation bias plays
into this and looking this up, just refamiliarizing myself about
the history of that. I didn't realize that it was
something that the philosopher Francis Bacon coined back in sixteen twenty,
and much like better Mainhoeff, this idea of seeking out
these patterns automatically without having to really, you know, think
(48:23):
about it at all. Our brains tend to glom onto
information and interpret it in such a way that confirms
the things we already believe and to reinforce maybe our
most positive versions of the way things way we want
things to go.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Benjamin Franklin in fact applied to the self, right. I mean, look,
it could sound like when we're explaining it this way
we are arguing against tarot cards. I would pause it.
We certainly are not, right, are we? All? Fans of these?
Speaker 3 (48:56):
I think they're beautiful. I love the design just strictly
from an art object perspective. I think they're really neat,
and all of this stuff is incredibly fascinating to me.
I don't know that I put any direct spiritual belief
into them, but I really love the psychology angle. And again,
I just am a fan of cool pieces of art,
and there's so many different ways of designing them and
(49:19):
interpreting them, and it's a cool thing to collect too.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
Frankly, Yeah, you think iconography is I.
Speaker 3 (49:26):
Do like religious iconography, and there is something very while
not religious at heart. There are some images images on
the tarot cards, like the lovers is kind of Adam
and Eve like. I don't know, maybe they're not really
meant to be direct correlations with the Bible, but they
do come off as classic kind of religious iconography.
Speaker 4 (49:48):
Very much so. And look, we are we are like
you folks. Hopefully we are fascinated by the deep psychology
at play behind this ancient art of interpretive cartomancy. It's
fair to say this is good news. It's fair to say,
based on what we know of the human mind, the
(50:09):
magic was inside you all along, and the cards just
helped you see it. So that's one to grow on.
I don't know if we get a sound.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Q on that, that's one to grow on. Well whatever,
it was.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
So good guys.
Speaker 4 (50:27):
Okay, So as we're wrapping up, can I share a
surprise with you?
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Oh my gosh, please?
Speaker 4 (50:32):
Is it okay?
Speaker 3 (50:33):
I've been on the edge of my couch all the time.
Speaker 4 (50:36):
Oh man, all right, So I invented my own system
of Tarot cards, and I'm still working on it. These
are kind of the things that I've been holding up while.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Are you asking your cranky coworkers for a favor?
Speaker 4 (50:54):
Ben, I am not, Matt, I am doing.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Are you sure?
Speaker 4 (50:59):
I am sure?
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Are you trying to do a little tricksies?
Speaker 4 (51:02):
Oh? No, no, you.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Made these?
Speaker 4 (51:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (51:07):
These are awesome, dude, amazing man.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
Yeah, So I think people should be able to invent
their own systems of Tarot carts. This one has, in
addition to the major arcana, it has nine suits of
minor arcana. I have a lot of friends outside stops.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
You got us, buddy, you got us. I think those
are dope, man. And again case and point to what
I was saying a minute ago. I love how it's
so open for interpretation. Not only that's my favorite. Oh yeah,
what is that one? The three of candles?
Speaker 4 (51:41):
Yes? He oh, you're good at this, helly.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah. I mean they're so open to not only interpretation
in the readings, but in the interpretation of individuals to
create their own kind of language around this stuff. And
I think that's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (51:56):
I mean, we have huge fans of tarot as a
concept in the audience tonight. Thank you for joining us.
We have hard skeptics here as well. Thank you for
joining us too. Wherever you fall on the spectrum, we
want to know about your experiences and friends and neighbors.
Let us know if we should create a custom stuff
they don't want you to know, Tarot deck. I don't know, guys,
(52:19):
are we up for.
Speaker 3 (52:21):
Ben Let's just say you are.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
Let's just stuff they don't want you know. There's a
different thing.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Okay, Well, I mean, you know, we support it, but
we could, we could, we could put our heads together
on something like that. I'm into it. I think that's
a fun idea.
Speaker 4 (52:34):
Well, right to accounting. Yeah, have you ever had a
reading that blew your mind? Or if you had a
reading that went spectacularly wrong? Or just a what is
this like? Knowle's earlier encounter with the use Guy's psychic h.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
The infamous Use Guy's Psychic of Williamsburg.
Speaker 4 (52:54):
The infamous Use Guy's Psychic of Williamsburg. Maybe there is
some stuff the tarot cards. I don't want you to know.
We want to know. Let us hear your thoughts. Let
us read your thoughts. You can find us on the lines.
You can call us on the phone, You can always
send us an email.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
Do all those things, and if you do wish to
find us on the lines, do so by reaching out
to the handle Conspiracy Stuff our Conspiracy Stuff show.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
If you want to give us a call, our number
is one eight three three std WYTK. When you call in,
give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if
we can use your name and message on the air.
And tell us what you think about this wheel of fortune?
What are the different symbols in here? What do they
mean to you? My hand is all shaky, so good
luck to you actually understanding it. That's the wheel of fortune.
Speaker 3 (53:38):
You went bankrupt spirit.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
If you want to send us an email, we are.
Speaker 4 (53:44):
The entities that read each piece of correspondence we receive.
Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the void wrights back,
so we'll see you out here in the dark. Let
us know if you have designed your own tarot part system,
and let's hang out conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
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Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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