March 7, 2025 • 61 mins
It's a harrowing story, often untold in the West: while everyone's tired of scam calls and texts, we rarely ask about the lives of people on the other side of the call. While it's devilishly easy to make light of the scammers and the con artists, the harsh reality is that thousands of people pushing scams are being forced to do so, often held against their will in what amounts to modern-day slavery. Following up on their earlier episode investigating the terrifying scam compounds in Myanmar, Ben, Matt and Noel welcome special guest, the award-winning journalist Denise Chan, to learn more about the continuing catastrophe in her newest project, Scam Factory, by Wondery.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Nol.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly,
you are here. That makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know. I suggest we begin with a
callback Matt Nol. Not too long ago, we explored a
(00:50):
harrowing story about me Admar, especially the troubled scam industry there,
and we exercise some empathy. We asked a question a
lot of people don't ask, which is when you get
those crazy phone calls, who's on the other line? You know,
(01:10):
who's on the other end of the phone.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Oh yeah. And we talked about specifically the geography of
me and Mar and how many borders it shares with
other countries where you can just travel across a river
and now you're in me and Mar that is going
through all kinds of political turmoil, a very dangerous place
to be.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Yeah, what you might call a civil and social and
governmental unrest. It's some areas being you know, completely lawless.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
And we also we also know, just as you do,
fellow conspiracy realist, that stories continue long after a headline
fades from your favorite subreddit or your favorite paper of notes.
So we kept digging, and tonight we are following up
on a deeper dive into the active criminal enterprises of
(02:07):
online scams, not just in Meammar, but around the globe.
We are joined with the Edward R. Moureau Award winning
investigative journalist Denise chand Denise, your newest project, Scam Factory,
explores the real world phenomena of scam compounds, their providence,
their consequences, the unclean human tool involved. Thank you so
(02:31):
much for joining us.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you all,
and we'll.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Be right back with Denise after a word from our sponsors.
We have been listening to Scam Factory, which has, let's say,
fully humanized the experiences of people who go through the factory,
(02:58):
people who are affected by loved ones going through the factory.
It is blowing our minds just as listeners. Can you
tell us how you came into this project?
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Yeah, I mean I'm like everybody else who gets a
bunch of these sort of scam texts, right, They're on
my phone all the time. And when I discovered that
the people on the other side of these scam text
were trapped in these compounds, thousands of them, stuck there,
forced to scam people fourteen sixteen hours a day, was
mind blowing and it totally flipped the script of who
(03:31):
I thought was a scammer and them actually being a victim.
And I think what is most compelling about Scam Factory
is that we were able to find a way to
tell this story that Matt, like you said, is human driven.
The story takes you inside these scam factories, they take
(03:52):
you behind the scene with these scammers. But really, at
the heart of it, it is a family story. It
is a story about a man, a Filipine man who
gets tricked into going to memar and his older sister,
who goes through crazy links, gets wrapped up in the
scam operations, makes complicated decisions in order to get her
(04:14):
brother out.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
A very very complex character. If we're going to call
them characters, this is someone Charlie is not exactly well.
Charlie in particular, just an absolutely. I don't know, compelling
kind of case of someone being pulled in multiple directions
and sort of driven by different allegiances and ultimately I
don't want to spoil anything, but it's very much put
(04:37):
to the test.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
And I think that that's what's really exciting about the
series is that because we get six episodes and we
get to really deep dive with each of these characters,
you get to really grapple alongside with these characters around
this moral question of would I harm people I don't
know in order to save my myself or to say,
(05:01):
the people that I love.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
It's a trolley problem in a way, you know, ethically
fraught and denise. One thing I love that you're pointing
out here is there's an exploration for the people on
the other side of the cold phone call. They themselves
have become scammed into scamming, if it's fair to say.
(05:26):
And with this, before we really dive in, we have
to acknowledge your award winning work on previous projects so
cal connected. I was there podcasts like fed Up and
over my Dead Body and.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Don't forget until it happened to us.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
All right?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Always remember that one. Also, can you tell us how
you initially discovered this story, like what drew you to it?
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Thank you for pointing out my previous work. Yeah, so
my previous background was in investigative documentaries. I've actually done
a lot of stories primarily domestically focused. So having the
opportunity to do an international story, to bring a story
that's overseas two US audiences, was always on my bucket list.
(06:20):
So this is why Scam Factory is very special and
unique milestone for me personally. But how I found this story,
it was unexpected. Actually, you know, once I heard that
these people, once I've learned the truth about who was
behind these scam texts, I immediately wanted to talk to
people who had escaped from these compounds. And at the time,
(06:45):
we had heard about two people who had just been
rescued a couple days prior and made it back to Bangkok,
and so we scheduled an interview to talk to them,
and those two individuals turned out to be Max and
Jing Wow. And as we're sitting there talking to Max
and Jane, we noticed that Max it keeps looking at
(07:09):
a woman sitting on the side, and we don't realize
until the recorder is off that that person is actually Charlie,
his older sister. And it wasn't until after that when
we began to have conversations with Charlie that we realized, oh,
Charlie not only helped bring Max out, but she actually
(07:30):
played an even bigger role without giving any spoilers, that
made her really the center of this entire story. So
that is how we ended up finding finding the story,
finding these siblings. And as we just kept pulling that thread,
it was, it just kept graveling and it became a
wilder and wilder tail as.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
You'll learn what luck I mean, I know there's more
to it than luck, but for your first you know
source that you discover to be at the center of
what is not just a kind of a teachable moment
for this kind of thing and sort of an explanation
of what is on the other side, but just an
absolute twisting, turning story of intrigue and just you know,
kind of the humanity of it adds it's incredible that
(08:13):
was you found those folks so quickly and all at
the same time.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
Yeah, I will add that, you know, it wasn't the
Max and Jay weren't definitely they were the first sources
that we spoke to coming out as Highland, but we
had talked to other sources stuff until that point. But
the thing about Wondering is that we're always trying to
find the most unique way into the story. And once
we heard about Charlie and Max's journey, the sibling story,
we were like, Okay, this is going to be a
(08:38):
compelling way in for listeners to universally understand what these
individuals are going through.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So let's jump to the first episode of the series.
When we're thinking about Charlie and Max. As you know
sister brother Charlie, the older sister who feels very protective
over Max. How does Max get introduced to the concept
of whatever it is that he thinks he's going to
go and do to make some money, Like what does
(09:08):
that value offer to him? And then how does he
get sucked in? And how does Charlie help him get there?
Speaker 5 (09:16):
So Max hears about this job offer through a couple
of his friends who have been I think originally they
were going to work in Cambodia and he hears about
this opportunity. He thinks, oh my gosh, my friends are
out there, they seem to be doing fine. I want
to work this job that one falls through. He gets
(09:39):
another offer to go to Bangkok, and this is the
one that we hear in the series, and he's talking
to a lot of his friends. They all seem like, oh,
this is a great job. Yeah, come come, come, come come,
and they're selling him on everything. You know, They're selling
him on amenities like room and board. Everything is paid for,
(10:01):
you get food, you get all these The supermarkets are there.
Everything is there, so you don't even have to leave
the compounds, so you're all good. You can just stay there.
And obviously, like we say in this series, Max is
at home driving his family car. It's not it's not
making a ton of money. So when he hears he's
(10:22):
making maybe two hundred and fifty dollars a month. And
so when he hears a job opportunity to go abroad
and make one thousand dollars a month, that could be
game changing for him. And so that's what initially appeals
to him. It's like, yes, I'm going to go abroad
for a year and work and be away from my family.
But hey, on the other side, I'll be able to
give them a way better standard of living if I
(10:45):
can get this this income. So that's Initially what brings
him in, Well, what does.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
He think he's going to do with that job? Like,
what is the actual job itself?
Speaker 5 (10:57):
He thinks that he is going over there to do
It's like an online casino gig, and so he thinks
he's going over there to do It's almost like the
loaders on online casinos, where you do customer service with
people who are gambling, and so he thinks that's what
the job is going to be. It's customer service, it's
back end, and that's it.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
In totally legit and super above board, definitely not involved
with any sort of triad. The sarcasm goes so real quick, Denise,
Let's let's walk through this experience. So we are Max, right,
we are working a pretty not amazing job, we're making
(11:45):
ends meet, and we receive an offer to travel abroad.
We sign a contract telling us we will work back
end an online casino gig. Where do we find the
plot twist? What happens to Max when he agrees to
(12:06):
take up this job offer.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
So Max is a sign a contract. But one of
the things I want to emphasize is, like, one of
the things that is really sinister about the entire thing
is that. You'll hear it in the first scene where
they go to a mall and these criminal syndicate bosses
will come, the recruiters will come, and they'll have lunch
with you. They'll they'll make it seem as legitimate as possible,
(12:29):
that this is all good. They'll answer every single question
that you have, they'll try to sell you on it.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
You're almost flattered by it, right because you're coming from
a place where maybe you aren't given that kind of respect,
and you're being treated like you're potentially an asset for
this new operation, and there's got to be a certain
sense of like pride that they're giving either maybe you
are lacking in your normal life.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
Yeah, and it feels like, you know, you'll hear it
in the series where Max goes to this restaurant and
it's a fancy restaurant, a restaurant they normally wouldn't go to,
and everything is paid for. In the back of their mind,
it feels really legitimate, like, oh, Okay, these people have money,
this company has money, this is gonna be great. So
and Charlie is at that lunch. Charlie is convinced herself.
(13:12):
She feels like she's done all the vetting that she
could do. She has asked all the questions. She feels
like it's legitimate, so she lets Max go. So yeah,
After their luncheon, Max is convinced. Max is very excited.
Charlie actually also has the opportunity to get the opportunity
a free flight to go and check out the compound herself.
(13:34):
I mean, all of this seems above board on her end.
She goes over to the campus. She sees, Oh, okay,
everything looks legitimate, like all the amenities are exactly as
they said. She takes a look at the dorms, She
takes a look at the office, She looks at people's screens, sees, oh,
they are doing online gambling. She comes back, tells Max,
we're good to go. I think you're okay, And so
(13:56):
Max goes and he's very excited. He flies over to
Bangkok and very quickly realizes something isn't right because Bangkok
should only be about forty five minutes away from the airport,
and as he's driving, it becomes longer and longer and longer,
(14:17):
and something starts to dawn on him. But it is
not right.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, I don't want to spoil it too much, but
imagine being like just being shuffled into a vehicle, right,
you think you're going forty five minutes, then it turns
into five hours, and then they're like, hey, get out,
we're going to stay at this hotel for a few hours.
And were here it kill it.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
I mean, all that kind of too speaks to the
nature of a scam and this idea of keeping people
hanging on kind of hoping for the next thing or
the positive thing that was promised. You'd make a really
good comparison in the first episode that I think a
lot of people can understand about the way car salesman op.
I actually just bought a car, so it's home for me.
(15:03):
But it's the idea that they kind of keep you
captive in a way and make you all these promises
and answer all your questions and make everything seem legitimate,
and then when you're kind of out of it or exhausted,
that's when they kind of pull the bait and switch
or whatever. You know. I mean, not all car salesmen
are like that, but can you maybe speak a little
bit to the mechanics of a scam, Maybe not the
(15:25):
specific scam, but just how that promise and that whole
relationship kind of plays into how things can really quickly
spin out of control.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
I think what's interesting is the whole tactic, especially with
folks like Max and Jane who get tricked into going
to MEMR. They are constantly reassured even in the car,
like as they're texting the recruiter, Oh, no, it's fine,
this is exactly what's happening. Don't worry. And they'll try
(15:58):
and ask questions, be like, hey, where where are we going?
And the driver will say no English, no English. So
it's sort of it's a stressful and yet confusing period.
But also you have no choice but to trust the
only person, the only contact you have, oftentimes it's the recruiter,
And so the recruiter is telling you, oh, it's good,
it's good, it's good, and so you really, what are
(16:20):
you going to do? You can't just like open the
door and just like roll out of the car. Right.
It's a very scary situation, and they purposely kind of
put people in that in that scenario so they can't escape,
and they all they can do is hope that they're
telling the truth, and obviously they're not telling the truth
about where they're going.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Well, and even beyond that, like physical safety aspect, there
is also that promise of future payment, future deliverables, and
you're like, oh, if I jump out now, or if
I get out now, or if I ask to be
dropped off, then I won't get this opportunity. And that's
part of the kind of mind games that are being
played with you by this recruiter as well.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean even once they get into the compound,
it's like the goals post keeps moving, you know. It's
it's they'll say, oh, just work one year, and then
maybe once you get to the one year, who knows
if they're lying or not. They could keep you for
longer or just meet this quota. And then once you
meet this quota, uh, and and you hit a certain number,
(17:21):
the quota might change. The quota might suddenly be like okay,
the bosses might suddenly say, hey, yeah, we said you
could work until this amount of money. However, because of
how you lived, you now owe x amount and so
therefore what you're trying to get at is now a
higher price. So these are just things that they do
to make sure you're stuck there and with.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That will take a quick break and be right back.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
And we're back.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Can we describe, just for everyone tuning in a bit
of the working conditions. So we're putting ourselves in Max's place.
Right in the story, we have our sibling Charlie, who
is very increasingly concerned. Right, we're Max, what are our
(18:18):
average like day to day working conditions looking like? How
is our life there?
Speaker 5 (18:25):
So inside these compounds, it's kind of bizarre because, and
I will be honest, when I first heard about these places,
it felt unreal that these places would exist. They are
almost like micro cities. There are places where there's high
rise buildings full of dorms, offices, and there's casinos, there's hotels,
there's streets full of restaurants, there are karaoke bars, so
(18:52):
it feels like a mini city. Obviously, as a low
level worker, somebody like Max or Jane in the story,
you're not allowed to necessarily go to some of these places.
Those areas of pleasure are oftentimes for the bosses. So
for workers like Max, really you are confined to either
the dorms or the office and you just basically go
(19:14):
from one place to the next, and there are guards
everywhere at all the entrants. Oftentimes there are armed guards.
You're heavily monitored when you're working in the office. You
have to turn in your phones before you start work,
and so the bosses are looking through what you're sending
to people. So Max had to be very very careful
about what he was sending out. There are cameras everywhere
(19:37):
inside these inside the offices, just watching people, making sure
you're working. I've also heard from sources of guards just
walking up and down the aisles as people are sitting
at their desk, just to make sure they are working.
Everything that they type on their computer is also monitored
(19:59):
by the bosses, so if you go off script, for instance,
the bosses will know, and so every single move you
make is watched. And then there's this immense pressure to
meet scam quotas. So Max and Jane told me that
their daily quota was about two thousand dollars a day.
(20:21):
Their team quota was twenty five thousand dollars a day,
and that's a team of thirteen people. So you divide
that by thirteen, it's two thousand dollars a day.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
So you can only imagine that US dollars.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
US dollars, so you can only imagine the amount of
money that's coming into these places, and if they don't
meet a certain quota, If they don't hit quota, there's punishment.
There's punishment like starvation, there's punishment like physical beatings, tortures
over time, things like that.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So wow, it just sounds so impossible that it could
be real, especially to get in to that situation the
way that Max well, and we don't spoil too much,
but all of the people that we follow in the
story end up in that position. I've heard of many
different types of scams. The one that is described that
(21:13):
they are performing is it was weird and different to
me that I just didn't I couldn't comprehend how they
would end up making money as scammers in this way
until you spell it out. I'd love to just describe
that a little bit. I don't know if it's specifically
called hotel hub or deal smashers or those things, but
it's this concept of roping somebody in through hotel reviews
(21:36):
and a complicated system of then that person putting money
back into the system to get money out. Can you
just describe some of that.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Yeah, I think I was also a little confused about
like the negative balance aspect of it. And how that works.
That would be super awesome if you could walk us
through it, because it's fascinating.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Yeah, it was. I mean, I'll be honest, I was
confusing when I first heard when I first heard of
this scam as well, because they also use interesting terms.
They call them customers and clients. They use terminology that's
really interesting, and I actually think part of that is
to make the workers feel like they're conducting legitimate business
(22:15):
in a way. It's psychological, right, the way that you frame.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
It's weaponized language, right.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
Yeah, So, Brillian, I think all of this is it's
all part of if you get any of these recruitment texts,
I think there's a lot of I've been getting a
lot of like, hey, are you looking for part time job?
I'm from a recruiting agency. And so the scam that
we talked about in this series specifically is a hotel
(22:42):
booking scam. So they pretend that they are from almost
like a hotel rating company that is asking people to
just for part time gig. Hey review a few hotels
for me, and we will give you some commission, will
throw us a couple dollars your way. Super easy work,
(23:03):
Sit on your couch, just rate some hotels. At some point,
the hook comes when they are asked to start to
write reviews for these hotels. And in order to write reviews,
you have to make some sort of hotel booking. And
in order to make the hotel booking, you put in
your money first, and then you'll be able to get
(23:25):
your money back out afterwards. In doing so, by putting
your money in upfront, you are allowing yourself to make
an even bigger commission. It is kind of confusing, but
I think what the scam does a really good job
of is that the scammer is trying to reassure you, Hey,
(23:46):
this complicated thing, don't worry. I'm going to simplify it
for you. All you got to do is just throw
the money in and like, don't even worry about how
this all works.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
All you got to know, I'll help you out. I'll
actually like, I'm your advocate here, You're.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
With you exactly, it's you and me as a team,
right exactly.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
All you got to do just put in the money.
I can just reassure you that you'll get even more
money back. And so at this point, I mean that's
the heart of the scam, where you like start to
develop a relationship with your scammer or your recruiter, you
think that they're looking out for you, and so you
start to believe, Okay, so far they have helped me
make a lot of money, so I have no reason
(24:25):
to not trust them at this moment in time, even
though I don't fully understand how this all works. And
so they'll put money in and know, like you were asking,
the negative balance comes up again where it's like, oh,
you know what, for some reason, it's a negative balance,
but don't worry. Just put more money in and you'll
get an even bigger reward at the end. And so
(24:45):
it's sort of like this cyclical thing. It doesn't fully
make sense, but I do think the heart of it
is that there's a level of trust. You trust that
this person you're talking to knows exactly what they're doing.
They understand the platform better than you. So the report
they're looking out for you for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Well it makes me think about the gig economy that
we all exist in now, where everybody is looking for
a second or third thing they can do on the
side to make just enough money to live right, to
be able to afford life. In twenty twenty five. And
this concept of picking up something on the side and
then just you know, doing reviews, doing rating, maybe even
(25:25):
delivering something. That kind of thing just is so regular,
that is just life.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Now.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
I can see how people would get sucked in really easily.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
And the fact that it's remote, right, I feel like
everybody in these days are looking for they're looking for
remote work to do something quick and easy, make a
couple of bucks. And it's not like you're going to
make a huge salary from this, but hey, a couple
of hundred bucks helping something, yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, Well, and I guess maybe the irony too, is
that the person that's running that scam and that is
creating that rapport with the customer or whatever the per
that's being scammed, they themselves, the person running it, have
a relationship that is similarly toxic and like Stockholm syndrome
with their captors, right, and where they're incentivized and they
(26:14):
are able to somehow mentally in order to just deal
with the trauma of all of this, normalize all of
this in order to kind of keep from going nuts.
I mean, that's just it's mind blowing the idea that
you know you are having to do this to a person.
You speak to multiple people who have executed these games,
and they feel remorse, But in the moment, you're like
(26:36):
doing what you're told, and you're also maybe even a
little bit trying to do a good job, and maybe
you're also kind of good at it. It's fascinating. Yeah,
that's what psychology of it all.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
It's really twisted to be put in that sort of
position where you want.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
To succeed and hit target because of the environment you're in,
but at the same time you're very clear what you're
doing and you're manipulating the person on the other end, and.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
When the killing day comes, when you are actually scamming them. Yeah,
the rug pull where you realize where they realize, oh,
I'm not getting that money back. They feel it a lot,
and you know, Max is just you hear it in
the series, a lot of these characters really have a
tough time grappling with that.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
They're cleaning out elderly people's savings and things like that
as well. I mean, this is very it's the most
kind of predatory.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Also under threat. Right. The people perceived by the end mark, right,
are themselves being scammed through the establishment of manipulation and
rapport a cycle, as you said, Denise, of scam all
the way down. One of the questions that a lot
of folks are going to be asking when they hear
(27:57):
our conversation now is well, hey, what if I am
one of these people built into traveling to me and
mar right, and I realize stuff is not on the
up and up and I want to get out.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
What do I do?
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Is it possible for me to get out from under
the thumb of this scam industry? What happens in that case?
Speaker 5 (28:23):
It's very scary to be in a place like Memmr
where it is lawless and it's not easy to have
access to law enforcement.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Communications are monitored as well. I mean you are and
there's like guards, there's this whole shoot to kill. It's
almost like trying to stage a prison break or something
at a certain point.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. It's very hard to reach out.
I will say, if you are in a situation like that,
try your best to reach out to your embassy in
the area. Yes, I think that is the number one
place where they could possibly do something, to go through
(29:09):
perhaps the appropriate channels. In the series, we talked to
Colonel Mattalog who is the police attache in Thailand, and
he is from the Philippines embassy, and so that was
a really critical resource for Filipinos, the Philippine Embassy in Bangkok.
So depending on what country you are from, I would
(29:30):
say that is the first place to reach out to.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Not the hero of our story in anyways, your story.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
I don't want to I don't want to spoil too much,
but the concept that these each, each individual person is
a foreign worker working in me and Mar for a company, right,
and then mean More has this thing and I don't
know if this is right or not. I was just
doing some digging after listening to one of the episodes,
but I found a thing called the Me and Mar
Center for Responsible Business Complaints and Grievance, which is really
(30:01):
interesting and I don't know if it's actually directly related
to the story here, but it is a system set
up to where foreign companies operating in Meanmar are monitored
to some extent, not really but to some extent, right,
and then you're able to lodge a complaint as an
employee of one of these foreign companies and say, hey,
(30:23):
my human rights are being violated in one way or another.
Here is how I need help. How is that real?
How does that function?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Like?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
What is a complaint desk?
Speaker 5 (30:35):
Yes? If it sounds bizarre, right that the place it does,
a place that's completely flawless and wild, would have some
sort of complaint desk.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
It's like HRR, better business.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
Yeah, exactly, it's it's insane. And I remember feeling that
exact same way when I heard about it. I'm like, wait,
are you guys playing my leg here like they're you
could just feel like, hi, sorry, I have a complaint.
So yeah, So these compounds are actually run by a
(31:13):
group called the Border Guard Forces, and the Border Guard
Forces basically control the land that these compounds are on.
And so what that means is these Chinese syndicates that
are opening these start these compounds, they're not the actual
owners of the place. They're leasing the land from the
group like Border Guard Forces. And so the Border Guard Forces,
(31:35):
from our reporting, there's really not a level of loyalty
necessarily to their Chinese tenants. It's more so, hey, we're
letting you use this land. Don't give us any trouble.
And so I think a desk like this complaint desk
that exists in these compounds is their way of making sure. Hey,
(31:55):
we're we're doing our job. Like you know, if anybody
has any human rights complaints, they can come to this
plaint desk and just file it. That said, in the series,
when you know Colonel advises people to go to this
complaint desk, he is very clear that it's not a
foresure that just because you go to this complaint desk
you will get out. There is a lot of negotiation,
(32:16):
back and back channeling that is done in order to
get these people out. However, step one is to at
least just flag to the complaint desk. Hey, my embassy
knows that I am here, and they know that I
want to get out and there's a violation on my
human rights. I don't want to work here. I want
to get out.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Are there any have you encountered any fears of reprisal
for people reaching out to that complaint desk?
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Gosh, there have to be at least the threat of it, right,
And don't the employers get a day in court to
answer for their supposed crimes as well? Like they kind
of show up, don't they? Isn't that part of it?
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Yeah, Colonel is very clear when people go to the
complaint desk, don't leave. The complaint desk area is a
physical area. It's right, right, It's almost it's like when
you're playing tag, there's like a safe zone base. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
the safe base. So it's essentially like that. It's like,
don't leave, don't don't let them convince you to go
(33:18):
back to the dorms. Because there have been situations where
the bosses are so convincing they go, hey, no, just
go back. We can talk about it back in the dorms,
and they get brutally beaten and their chances of even
getting out again are very limited.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Well, sometimes they go to the desk after having already
been brutally beaten with signs of that kind of violence,
and yet there's still situations where they might be enticed
to go back. It just speaks to the absolute, you know,
Jedi level mind games that these folks are playing.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Hey, what do you say we take a quick break here,
a word from our sponsors, and then get right back
into this conversation about scam Factory, and we've returned at
this point.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
A lot of us listening now will wonder why this
practice continues, indeed, why this practice seems to have not
been in any way addressed nor in any actionable way
controlled to preserve the safety of these people who get
(34:36):
scammed in to scamming. So we have to ask why
why is no one stopping this?
Speaker 4 (34:43):
It's not even reported that widely. I hadn't heard about
it until we did a strange news segment about it
on the show. And this is very much Ben's wheelhouse
with international affairs and such. But I just don't feel
like it gets much traction in the American media, you know,
outside of your incredible series. It seems like a really
off the beaten path kind of story that a lot
of folks are absolutely clueless about.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
I think what often happens here in the US when
we report on these stories, it's usually from the standpoint
of the victim, right, the victim who gets the text
and ends up getting scammed. And so, you know, the
goal of telling the story from the perspective of the
scammers is, to Michael, was to really show how connected
(35:23):
we all are. Right, this is a story, Yes, it's
a human trafficking story that's happening all the way in
memr and it feels very very far away, and yet
these same people are very much so connected to us
over here, just simply through a text message. So that
human rights story that's happening over there is very much
something that we should all pay attention over here in
the US. But to your point then that what is happening?
(35:46):
What like, is anybody doing anything about this situation? You know,
these contents have existed for quite some time now. I
could started somewhere during the pandemic when it started to
really pick up. But it's been kind of exciting is
a weird word to use, but you know, I will
I will say that there's been a lot of renewed
(36:10):
attention on these scam compounds. I don't know if you've
heard recently. Earlier this year, there was news of a
Chinese actor who had been tricked. He thought he was
going for a casting call in Bangkok and he ended
up being in one of these compounds in Memar, and
that made huge news. And in addition to that, there
(36:33):
was also another Hong Kong pop star. His name is
Easan Chan. He was scheduled to have a concert in
Bangkok and he canceled it because he was scared that
fans were going to be abducted and taken into Meammar
to these scam compounds, and so both of those events
really just shine new light on the topic. And as
(36:58):
a result of that, there's been a lot of pressure
on the leaders of China and Thailand to do something
about it. And so in the last month in February,
we're seeing a lot of motion, like a lot of activity.
We saw Thailand shut off power in some of the
towns in Memmr for where these compounds are held. Just
(37:18):
last week. Okay, so I don't know when this is
going to air, but last week of February, the compounds,
a couple of compounds released about seven thousand people wow
out and so right now as we're speaking, they're all
hanging out in Memmar waiting to be repatriated back to
their perspective countries. And so that's huge. Seven thousand people
(37:40):
is a lot, and so it's going to be exciting
to see what other new developments are coming out, how
many are more are being released, and so on and
so forth. And actually KK Park, which is one of
the scam factories that we feature in our series, they
released I don't have an exact number, but they released
(38:02):
quite a number of people part of that seven thousand.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
That's anyone who is a regular listener of this show.
That's one of the ones we highlighted KK Park in
our previous episode on this whole situation.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
I think I was taking it back by that because
it literally is like a very professional seeming office park,
you know, but specifically designed for this very you know,
nefarious purpose.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
And folks, real quick, the Chinese actor we're referencing there
is Wong Shinging. I think, so this is getting more
and more international attention. Thousands of people.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, well, let's get a sense of scale here. This
is from reporting from The Guardian as of just a
couple of days ago. They're estimating around one hundred and
twenty thousand people across me mmr are in this situation,
living in a compound like this, forced to work in
this type of this type of job in that situation.
There's another one hundred thousand and estimated in Cambodia who
(39:02):
are having to do this. And you know, that's just
two countries where this type of stuff is happening. And
so you imagine seven thousand people is so many human
beings that are saved, but then there's so much work
left to do.
Speaker 5 (39:14):
Yeah, and there are just you'll hear news like this,
but then you'll hear, oh there's a new scam compound
being built in Dubai. Oh there are new compounds being
built in Africa, in South America. So it's it's like
whack a mole, right, you can't the hydra, Yeah, yeah,
you can't kill them off.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Yeah, I mean, I just I don't know. I get
so many scam calls, it's kind of ridiculous, and it
seems like it's gotten just worse and worse, and the
types of scams just seem to keep shifting, Like I
get this one all the time. Now that's saying that
they need more information for this loan that I applied for,
and it's their underwriting department and I get it.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Spoiler, folks, Noel did not actually apply.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
It did not. But it's indifferent voices, they leave messages,
it comes from all kinds of area codes, and it's
coming from this very uniform seeming script. So that's just
one that I've been inundated with. And I just wonder
if you have any thoughts about the are things like
that coming from these types of compounds as well? Is
that a red flag? The idea that it's the scripted
(40:20):
thing with different voices, maybe with spoofed numbers, or how
do they reach us, you know, with this kind of stuff,
and how do you see the evolution of these types
of scams even as governments take action and close some
of these places down.
Speaker 5 (40:35):
I don't know for sure if all of the calls
are from these scam centers. I wouldn't be surprised right now,
from what I've heard of from my sources is that
there's a big focus on AI anybody like AI talent
because you know, as you can imagine, if you can
use AI to talk to people, not rely on people
(40:59):
trans late to chat with people, like, it's only going
to become more and more realistic, and that's really scary. Yes,
So that, like, I wouldn't surprise me that they're doing
things like that, But that only means we should all
just be more vigilant of any strange calls, any texts
(41:20):
from strangers.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, to anybody that wants to video chat with you.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Do you have any tips and any tips you might
pass on to folks who in this climate just things
to listen out for without just being completely paranoid and
distrustful of everything, you know, I mean yeah, I don't
know if if if you in the course of your
reporting kind of learned some things to look for and
maybe some suggestions you might give to listeners, you know,
(41:45):
trying to be be vigilant.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
As we're saying, also, Denise, thank you for hopping on
this video chat with us. Jeez, but that's a that's
a great question. So we're we're hearing these very scary things.
We're also learning to exercise empathy for the people who
got scammed into scamming in your work. As Noel was asking,
(42:11):
do we arrive at some basic like day one tips
for the vigilance you describe.
Speaker 5 (42:21):
I am the first to admit that now I am
so paranoid of any of any text I got my
way the other day. Just last night, my boyfriend got
a texted was like, Hey, I'm your neighbor, like can
you turn down the music? My name is Debbie. And
we're like, we don't have a neighbor named Debbie. Why
is this their new way to scam people? Now it
(42:43):
turns out it was a wrong number, but I was like,
oh no, oh.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
My gosh, what's going on with Debbie?
Speaker 5 (42:50):
Well, so, you know, like I'm constantly worried about this
kind of stuff. But I would say, you know, I'll
give the advice that I give to my mom because
that is what I often times do. One is I
would tell her, do not talk to anybody who's tried
to sneak into your talk to you on Facebook, on WhatsApp,
like any strangers, Like, just don't talk to them. If
(43:12):
somebody is reaching out to you that pretends that they're
from some sort of legitimate company, really try to verify.
What they will often do is if you look closely
at the website they give you, check for the legitimate website,
like google it on your own, just to make sure
it's the real site. Look at email addresses. Sometimes they'll
(43:35):
change like one single letter just to make themselves seem
like they're from the company, but they're really not.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Make sure that you are L is the real U
R L exactly?
Speaker 5 (43:43):
Yes, yes, I do RU there you go, they sneak in,
But yeah, I think that that's That's one thing. And
then if in doubt, I would also seek out second
third opinions just to like make sure, so like a
double verify, Like my momost and me all these texts
and emails these days and I'll be like, don't respond.
(44:05):
That's a scam. That's a scam. That's a scam.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (44:09):
And actually the biggest thing is if you're in conversation
with any of these people, if anybody asked you to
set up a crypto account, that is a big red flag.
Speaker 4 (44:18):
You know, don't give my Amazon gift cards another one
anything like that. That's like untraceable, and yes, yes.
Speaker 5 (44:25):
That's it. Don't don't set up a crypto account to
do that with strangers.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Just just while we're here, I want to talk about
a character named Jella that we meet inside the series,
and she is somebody who was She was doing the
hotel reviews scam or you know, one of the one
of the other scams for a while, but she wasn't
very good at it because she just couldn't convince people
to you know, sink all their money into stuff. So
(44:51):
she got transferred to another office. I don't know if
it was the same company or a different company, just
in the same compound, but she was doing a essentially
a honey pot scam, but just with a whole room
full of people doing the same scam where they're trying
to get people to video chat and do lude things
on video.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
For blackmail extortion.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
It's just incredible to think that there are rooms of
human beings forced to do that type of work. And
then we hear stories, especially of younger people, they get
caught up in something like that. Who you know a
younger person that thinks they've got oh wow, here is
potentially a crusher or you know a relationship that I
could build and it just turns into something that can
(45:35):
destroy your entire life. You highlight the possibility of self
harm in some of these situations with another university student
who gets caught up in one of these things. It's
just I don't even really have a question here, Denise.
It's just it's so important for all of us to
know that this stuff exists to arm our minds against
(45:59):
it at least a lot little bit.
Speaker 5 (46:01):
Yeah, I think to your point about Jella, it's like
Jella ends up doing a number of different scams and
without giving everything away, she is reaching out to people
when she does the sextortion scam, it's she's on dating
platforms like she's on that kind of problem. Then she
(46:23):
does she gets moved to another department where they're doing
pig butchering scams on Amazon's shop like it's just you
can't avoid it. They are coming everywhere to try and
develop relationships with people. YIX be careful.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Yes, as you said earlier, the vigilance is key, and
we're exploring this sort of stuff together. Obviously. You know,
the weird thing about the age of ubiquitous social media,
the fact that anyone around the world can contact anyone else.
(47:05):
We would have logically assumed it brought people together, but
it seems to have made people a bit more lonely.
So we have to ask ourselves about the human drive
to connect, right and how that human that fundamental human
drive can be weaponized against people. You know, sometimes we
(47:29):
end these kind of conversations with the with our little
takeaway being like call your mom, you know, call your dad,
check in on the older folks in your life, especially
people who are not, as we would say, native to
this world. And one thing that we really want to
(47:51):
emphasize with your work in Scam Factory is that, as
you point out, this is a continuing story. This does
not this does not end with, you know, a nice
bow wrapped to top the gift. Is there is there
a way out for people currently experiencing this on either
(48:14):
side of the phone. We talked about contacting and embassy.
We talked about a couple of day one kind of
things we can do to protect our loved ones. Where
do you see this industry of scam factories going in
the future. Is there any kind of stop gap?
Speaker 4 (48:34):
Is there?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Is it accelerating what's going on?
Speaker 5 (48:38):
I hope that there's going to be a stop gap,
but I hope that there will be change. It's hard
to It's really hard to predict, right, because these compounds
are growing so fast. I remember over the course of
my reporting, I reported on this for about two years.
Even when I would look at satellite image of Kkparks specifically,
(49:02):
every month, there'd be new buildings being built, like they're
just constantly growing and things aren't changing.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Just the amount of money that goes in there. Right,
you said twenty five thousand dollars a day quota for
one office, and we're imagining there's a ton of offices, right.
Speaker 5 (49:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean some companies are making The stat
I had was four hundred thousand dollars a day for
just one single company. So the amount of money that's
coming through it could be billions of dollars, and so
when you think about how much money is going into
these compounds, you can imagine there's like a lot of
incentive to like make sure it keeps going. So there's
(49:44):
a lot of you know, when you're building things at
this scale, it requires a lot of people to allow
it to happen. And so there's also that which is
what makes it sometimes a bit hard to well, not
a bit, it makes it very hard to stop and
to hold people accountable.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Can we talk about how I think Charlie. There's a
moment where Charlie wants to go see her brother, and
in order to do that, she negotiates with the character
we're calling dev in the story. But then she ends
up meeting people who want to go. They are aware
that it's a scam factory style thing, they know exactly
(50:27):
what it is, and they want to go there to
make money, and they're like, Yeah, that's great, that sounds great,
I'll go. I guess that blows my mind because it
does seem like, at least within the story of Scam Factory,
that there are human beings who are aware of the
situation in the compounds and still want to go because
there's a belief that perhaps they can make money for
(50:47):
a few years and then get out.
Speaker 5 (50:50):
Yeah, there definitely is that. And actually, when I spoke
to Colonel there are actually people who at trapped there
but end up staying because they think, you know what,
at the end of the day, I may not be
doing something that is above water, is above word, but
I am making more money than I would make at home.
(51:12):
So I would rather stay here and at least be
able to send money back, and I have all the
amenities I need, which is really crazy that they these
places become almost a better place to exist in work,
then they would be back home.
Speaker 4 (51:31):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Yeah, it's a devil you know, situation sometimes, right, the
idea that we may we may address or engage with
with a morally fraud kind of enterprise and in doing
so perhaps justify for ourselves a greater good. Right, I
(51:54):
am helping my family, I am pursuing an opportunity and
always just for a limited time that perhaps is the
most It's that's yeah, it's.
Speaker 5 (52:10):
Super insidious, and I think that's they weaponize this notion
of family. They use family to recruit, they use family
to extort, and they use family to control, Like they're
using family to do all of the above to keep
workers doing exactly what they want them to do.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Thank you so much, Denise for hanging out with us
and telling us just about the show you've made. For
this episode, Wow, this is this is?
Speaker 3 (52:40):
Are you kidding? Thank you for bringing this story further
into the world, because it's something that is so easy
to ignore. Right It's common parlance here in the West
for people to say, oh, you'll never guess what kind
of scam text I got, and it's very easy to
(53:00):
forget that they're real people on the other side of
that line. Scam Factory is available now. Spoilers, folks, It's
really good. We're not blowing spoke on this one. The reporting,
Denise you have done got us to I can't speak
for my palace, Matt and noll At. A couple times
(53:23):
in the show, I was wondering, Holy shit, is Denise
going to be okay reporting this? You know what I mean?
Did you ever feel that you yourself were going to
get targeted for bringing this to the world. I hope
the answer is no.
Speaker 5 (53:38):
I mean no, It's in the back of my mind.
You know. In the early stages there were reporters who
didn't want to work with me on this because of
safety concerns, and so that is also one of the
reasons why we don't use we use pseudonyms on the series,
because you know, these are people who have escaped from
criminal syndicates and so they're very afraid, and so that
(54:00):
is something that we had to take a lot of
Karen and really making sure that we do what we
can to protect their identity because it's very very brave
of them to come share their story. But also on
top of that, it's taxing, right, this is a traumatic
experience that they have gone through, and so as a
reporter or the other thing that is very front of
(54:22):
mine for me is really making sure that we are
doing trauma informed reporting and making sure that they are
they they have, they're in control as they're sharing their
stories with us. So I would thank my sources for
speaking and sharing their stories.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
I have a potentially dumb question, what is the syndicate?
Like we talked about it, but is it multiple criminal organizations?
Is are there a couple that are just controlling a
lot of this stuff or they like I'm imagining all
these different front companies right that are operating in some way.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
Who's the stakeholder cough cough.
Speaker 5 (55:02):
So from my understanding, it's not like there's one family
crime or criminal organization on the top of everything. It's
all like the you know, this isn't Batman. So I
don't know how many how many people are in charge
at the top. I think there are a lot of entrepreneurs.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
I recall it that entrepreneurs.
Speaker 5 (55:26):
Who see this as an opportunity to make money. And
I've even heard of like this is really crazy, but
I've heard of things like a startup kit that have
been being distributed as to like how you can set
up your own scamming like scamming company. And so because
of that, it's it's kind of scary in that you
(55:47):
can see it as entrepreneurship. And so therefore you can't
really pinpoint who is at the top of all of this.
But there has been reporting of of some individuals who've
been funding some of these things.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
And then yeah, and we can't thank you enough for
your time bringing this story to the world.
Speaker 4 (56:07):
You have to be so busy.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
And we are are grateful that you're even hanging out
with us here. We usually, you know, just for the record,
tell Stoners about Bigfoot. So can I get away with
that one if we're going to keep it in. So
this is this, Thanks Andrew. This is something more people
(56:32):
need to know about, Denise. Is there a place where
people can learn more about your work, not just with
this project scam Factory, but with your other endeavors and projects.
Speaker 5 (56:45):
Thank you for asking, Ben. I was just thinking this
morning that I should really get my website so that
people can see my work. But yeah, for the time being,
you can probably you can follow me on social media
Denise k Chan and on LinkedIn probably the best way
to see my work, and eventually, hopefully by the time
(57:06):
this is up, you can find me on my website.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (57:12):
Of course, thank you, and there you have it, fellow
conspiracy realist. We have followed up on our earlier episode
about KK Park and the troubled order of Meam mark guys. Honestly,
scam Factory. It's really good, It really really is.
Speaker 4 (57:33):
It's just beautifully researched and reported, obviously, and also the
sound design is top notch and very immersive without you know,
kind of getting in the way. Really can't wait to
hear more. I think there's one more episode to drop
as we sit and record this today.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, yeah, and some of us have listened and it
uh wow, just you should listen. I'll put it that way.
I don't want to spoil anything. It is such a
crazy story. And have you said something at the top,
know all about Charlie, that character Charlie just following the
journey all the way to the end.
Speaker 3 (58:11):
Yeah, this is something that really hit me. You guys,
Denise Chan and her team are looking at the human
consequences that we explored briefly, but they're looking at it
in depth. You know, there's always someone else on the
other side of the phone, and we know that it
can be so tempting and easy to clown folks who
(58:36):
are scammers, but we have to ask where that person
is coming from and whether they want to be there.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
Yeah, And it's a scam all the way down and
all the way up, everybody scamming everybody in the chain
when it comes to this, and guys, it made me
just think about I don't know, some stuff I kind
of don't want to say on the mic, just about
jobs in general, taxes and oh boy, getting scammed. Just heay, No,
we just need you to work a little bit longer
(59:03):
you'll retire one day. No, no, no, we promise. Yeah,
you'll retire. You'll go on that cruise. You'll be sixty,
maybe eighty, but go on a cruise for sure.
Speaker 3 (59:12):
Yeah. Just keep just keep digging, and pay no attention
to the gun at the back of your head.
Speaker 2 (59:18):
Y yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
Yeah, and remember you're only renting the shovel anyway, not
keeping it too dark. We want to hear your thoughts, folks.
Please check out Scam Factory, and please, please please remember
that this show only happens with your support. You are
the most important part of our exploration. As such, we
would love to hear from you. The rumors are true.
(59:42):
You can find us on email. You can find us
on a telephonic device of your choice. You can also
sip the social means.
Speaker 4 (59:52):
Indeed, you can find us the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where
it gets crazy. On YouTube, we have video content galore
for you to enjoy, as well as on x FKA, Twitter,
on Instagram and TikTok. We're Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, it's a voicemail system.
Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know within
the message if we can use your name and message
on the air. If you've got more to say, they
could fit a three minute message. Maybe you've got links,
maybe you've got photographs, other attachments. Why not send us
(01:00:29):
a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we received. Be well aware, yet unafree. Sometimes the void
writes back. Big, big thank you to our many fellow
listeners who checked in about our run of classic episodes. Guys,
remember we did some classic episodes for about a week there.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Yes we did, Indeed we did.
Speaker 5 (01:00:55):
We did.
Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
We're back in the saddle. Just to let everybody know
who asked, we are okay, we are live. We are
making this show with our own consent. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio
dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Nol.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly,
you are here. That makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know. I suggest we begin with a
callback Matt Nol. Not too long ago, we explored a
(00:50):
harrowing story about me Admar, especially the troubled scam industry there,
and we exercise some empathy. We asked a question a
lot of people don't ask, which is when you get
those crazy phone calls, who's on the other line? You know,
(01:10):
who's on the other end of the phone.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Oh yeah. And we talked about specifically the geography of
me and Mar and how many borders it shares with
other countries where you can just travel across a river
and now you're in me and Mar that is going
through all kinds of political turmoil, a very dangerous place
to be.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Yeah, what you might call a civil and social and
governmental unrest. It's some areas being you know, completely lawless.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
And we also we also know, just as you do,
fellow conspiracy realist, that stories continue long after a headline
fades from your favorite subreddit or your favorite paper of notes.
So we kept digging, and tonight we are following up
on a deeper dive into the active criminal enterprises of
(02:07):
online scams, not just in Meammar, but around the globe.
We are joined with the Edward R. Moureau Award winning
investigative journalist Denise chand Denise, your newest project, Scam Factory,
explores the real world phenomena of scam compounds, their providence,
their consequences, the unclean human tool involved. Thank you so
(02:31):
much for joining us.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you all,
and we'll.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Be right back with Denise after a word from our sponsors.
We have been listening to Scam Factory, which has, let's say,
fully humanized the experiences of people who go through the factory,
(02:58):
people who are affected by loved ones going through the factory.
It is blowing our minds just as listeners. Can you
tell us how you came into this project?
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Yeah, I mean I'm like everybody else who gets a
bunch of these sort of scam texts, right, They're on
my phone all the time. And when I discovered that
the people on the other side of these scam text
were trapped in these compounds, thousands of them, stuck there,
forced to scam people fourteen sixteen hours a day, was
mind blowing and it totally flipped the script of who
(03:31):
I thought was a scammer and them actually being a victim.
And I think what is most compelling about Scam Factory
is that we were able to find a way to
tell this story that Matt, like you said, is human driven.
The story takes you inside these scam factories, they take
(03:52):
you behind the scene with these scammers. But really, at
the heart of it, it is a family story. It
is a story about a man, a Filipine man who
gets tricked into going to memar and his older sister,
who goes through crazy links, gets wrapped up in the
scam operations, makes complicated decisions in order to get her
(04:14):
brother out.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
A very very complex character. If we're going to call
them characters, this is someone Charlie is not exactly well.
Charlie in particular, just an absolutely. I don't know, compelling
kind of case of someone being pulled in multiple directions
and sort of driven by different allegiances and ultimately I
don't want to spoil anything, but it's very much put
(04:37):
to the test.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
And I think that that's what's really exciting about the
series is that because we get six episodes and we
get to really deep dive with each of these characters,
you get to really grapple alongside with these characters around
this moral question of would I harm people I don't
know in order to save my myself or to say,
(05:01):
the people that I love.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
It's a trolley problem in a way, you know, ethically
fraught and denise. One thing I love that you're pointing
out here is there's an exploration for the people on
the other side of the cold phone call. They themselves
have become scammed into scamming, if it's fair to say.
(05:26):
And with this, before we really dive in, we have
to acknowledge your award winning work on previous projects so
cal connected. I was there podcasts like fed Up and
over my Dead Body and.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Don't forget until it happened to us.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
All right?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Always remember that one. Also, can you tell us how
you initially discovered this story, like what drew you to it?
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Thank you for pointing out my previous work. Yeah, so
my previous background was in investigative documentaries. I've actually done
a lot of stories primarily domestically focused. So having the
opportunity to do an international story, to bring a story
that's overseas two US audiences, was always on my bucket list.
(06:20):
So this is why Scam Factory is very special and
unique milestone for me personally. But how I found this story,
it was unexpected. Actually, you know, once I heard that
these people, once I've learned the truth about who was
behind these scam texts, I immediately wanted to talk to
people who had escaped from these compounds. And at the time,
(06:45):
we had heard about two people who had just been
rescued a couple days prior and made it back to Bangkok,
and so we scheduled an interview to talk to them,
and those two individuals turned out to be Max and
Jing Wow. And as we're sitting there talking to Max
and Jane, we noticed that Max it keeps looking at
(07:09):
a woman sitting on the side, and we don't realize
until the recorder is off that that person is actually Charlie,
his older sister. And it wasn't until after that when
we began to have conversations with Charlie that we realized, oh,
Charlie not only helped bring Max out, but she actually
(07:30):
played an even bigger role without giving any spoilers, that
made her really the center of this entire story. So
that is how we ended up finding finding the story,
finding these siblings. And as we just kept pulling that thread,
it was, it just kept graveling and it became a
wilder and wilder tail as.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
You'll learn what luck I mean, I know there's more
to it than luck, but for your first you know
source that you discover to be at the center of
what is not just a kind of a teachable moment
for this kind of thing and sort of an explanation
of what is on the other side, but just an
absolute twisting, turning story of intrigue and just you know,
kind of the humanity of it adds it's incredible that
(08:13):
was you found those folks so quickly and all at
the same time.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
Yeah, I will add that, you know, it wasn't the
Max and Jay weren't definitely they were the first sources
that we spoke to coming out as Highland, but we
had talked to other sources stuff until that point. But
the thing about Wondering is that we're always trying to
find the most unique way into the story. And once
we heard about Charlie and Max's journey, the sibling story,
we were like, Okay, this is going to be a
(08:38):
compelling way in for listeners to universally understand what these
individuals are going through.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So let's jump to the first episode of the series.
When we're thinking about Charlie and Max. As you know
sister brother Charlie, the older sister who feels very protective
over Max. How does Max get introduced to the concept
of whatever it is that he thinks he's going to
go and do to make some money, Like what does
(09:08):
that value offer to him? And then how does he
get sucked in? And how does Charlie help him get there?
Speaker 5 (09:16):
So Max hears about this job offer through a couple
of his friends who have been I think originally they
were going to work in Cambodia and he hears about
this opportunity. He thinks, oh my gosh, my friends are
out there, they seem to be doing fine. I want
to work this job that one falls through. He gets
(09:39):
another offer to go to Bangkok, and this is the
one that we hear in the series, and he's talking
to a lot of his friends. They all seem like, oh,
this is a great job. Yeah, come come, come, come come,
and they're selling him on everything. You know, They're selling
him on amenities like room and board. Everything is paid for,
(10:01):
you get food, you get all these The supermarkets are there.
Everything is there, so you don't even have to leave
the compounds, so you're all good. You can just stay there.
And obviously, like we say in this series, Max is
at home driving his family car. It's not it's not
making a ton of money. So when he hears he's
(10:22):
making maybe two hundred and fifty dollars a month. And
so when he hears a job opportunity to go abroad
and make one thousand dollars a month, that could be
game changing for him. And so that's what initially appeals
to him. It's like, yes, I'm going to go abroad
for a year and work and be away from my family.
But hey, on the other side, I'll be able to
give them a way better standard of living if I
(10:45):
can get this this income. So that's Initially what brings
him in, Well, what does.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
He think he's going to do with that job? Like,
what is the actual job itself?
Speaker 5 (10:57):
He thinks that he is going over there to do
It's like an online casino gig, and so he thinks
he's going over there to do It's almost like the
loaders on online casinos, where you do customer service with
people who are gambling, and so he thinks that's what
the job is going to be. It's customer service, it's
back end, and that's it.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
In totally legit and super above board, definitely not involved
with any sort of triad. The sarcasm goes so real quick, Denise,
Let's let's walk through this experience. So we are Max, right,
we are working a pretty not amazing job, we're making
(11:45):
ends meet, and we receive an offer to travel abroad.
We sign a contract telling us we will work back
end an online casino gig. Where do we find the
plot twist? What happens to Max when he agrees to
(12:06):
take up this job offer.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
So Max is a sign a contract. But one of
the things I want to emphasize is, like, one of
the things that is really sinister about the entire thing
is that. You'll hear it in the first scene where
they go to a mall and these criminal syndicate bosses
will come, the recruiters will come, and they'll have lunch
with you. They'll they'll make it seem as legitimate as possible,
(12:29):
that this is all good. They'll answer every single question
that you have, they'll try to sell you on it.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
You're almost flattered by it, right because you're coming from
a place where maybe you aren't given that kind of respect,
and you're being treated like you're potentially an asset for
this new operation, and there's got to be a certain
sense of like pride that they're giving either maybe you
are lacking in your normal life.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
Yeah, and it feels like, you know, you'll hear it
in the series where Max goes to this restaurant and
it's a fancy restaurant, a restaurant they normally wouldn't go to,
and everything is paid for. In the back of their mind,
it feels really legitimate, like, oh, Okay, these people have money,
this company has money, this is gonna be great. So
and Charlie is at that lunch. Charlie is convinced herself.
(13:12):
She feels like she's done all the vetting that she
could do. She has asked all the questions. She feels
like it's legitimate, so she lets Max go. So yeah,
After their luncheon, Max is convinced. Max is very excited.
Charlie actually also has the opportunity to get the opportunity
a free flight to go and check out the compound herself.
(13:34):
I mean, all of this seems above board on her end.
She goes over to the campus. She sees, Oh, okay,
everything looks legitimate, like all the amenities are exactly as
they said. She takes a look at the dorms, She
takes a look at the office, She looks at people's screens, sees, oh,
they are doing online gambling. She comes back, tells Max,
we're good to go. I think you're okay, And so
(13:56):
Max goes and he's very excited. He flies over to
Bangkok and very quickly realizes something isn't right because Bangkok
should only be about forty five minutes away from the airport,
and as he's driving, it becomes longer and longer and longer,
(14:17):
and something starts to dawn on him. But it is
not right.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, I don't want to spoil it too much, but
imagine being like just being shuffled into a vehicle, right,
you think you're going forty five minutes, then it turns
into five hours, and then they're like, hey, get out,
we're going to stay at this hotel for a few hours.
And were here it kill it.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
I mean, all that kind of too speaks to the
nature of a scam and this idea of keeping people
hanging on kind of hoping for the next thing or
the positive thing that was promised. You'd make a really
good comparison in the first episode that I think a
lot of people can understand about the way car salesman op.
I actually just bought a car, so it's home for me.
(15:03):
But it's the idea that they kind of keep you
captive in a way and make you all these promises
and answer all your questions and make everything seem legitimate,
and then when you're kind of out of it or exhausted,
that's when they kind of pull the bait and switch
or whatever. You know. I mean, not all car salesmen
are like that, but can you maybe speak a little
bit to the mechanics of a scam, Maybe not the
(15:25):
specific scam, but just how that promise and that whole
relationship kind of plays into how things can really quickly
spin out of control.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
I think what's interesting is the whole tactic, especially with
folks like Max and Jane who get tricked into going
to MEMR. They are constantly reassured even in the car,
like as they're texting the recruiter, Oh, no, it's fine,
this is exactly what's happening. Don't worry. And they'll try
(15:58):
and ask questions, be like, hey, where where are we going?
And the driver will say no English, no English. So
it's sort of it's a stressful and yet confusing period.
But also you have no choice but to trust the
only person, the only contact you have, oftentimes it's the recruiter,
And so the recruiter is telling you, oh, it's good,
it's good, it's good, and so you really, what are
(16:20):
you going to do? You can't just like open the
door and just like roll out of the car. Right.
It's a very scary situation, and they purposely kind of
put people in that in that scenario so they can't escape,
and they all they can do is hope that they're
telling the truth, and obviously they're not telling the truth
about where they're going.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Well, and even beyond that, like physical safety aspect, there
is also that promise of future payment, future deliverables, and
you're like, oh, if I jump out now, or if
I get out now, or if I ask to be
dropped off, then I won't get this opportunity. And that's
part of the kind of mind games that are being
played with you by this recruiter as well.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean even once they get into the compound,
it's like the goals post keeps moving, you know. It's
it's they'll say, oh, just work one year, and then
maybe once you get to the one year, who knows
if they're lying or not. They could keep you for
longer or just meet this quota. And then once you
meet this quota, uh, and and you hit a certain number,
(17:21):
the quota might change. The quota might suddenly be like okay,
the bosses might suddenly say, hey, yeah, we said you
could work until this amount of money. However, because of
how you lived, you now owe x amount and so
therefore what you're trying to get at is now a
higher price. So these are just things that they do
to make sure you're stuck there and with.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That will take a quick break and be right back.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
And we're back.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Can we describe, just for everyone tuning in a bit
of the working conditions. So we're putting ourselves in Max's place.
Right in the story, we have our sibling Charlie, who
is very increasingly concerned. Right, we're Max, what are our
(18:18):
average like day to day working conditions looking like? How
is our life there?
Speaker 5 (18:25):
So inside these compounds, it's kind of bizarre because, and
I will be honest, when I first heard about these places,
it felt unreal that these places would exist. They are
almost like micro cities. There are places where there's high
rise buildings full of dorms, offices, and there's casinos, there's hotels,
there's streets full of restaurants, there are karaoke bars, so
(18:52):
it feels like a mini city. Obviously, as a low
level worker, somebody like Max or Jane in the story,
you're not allowed to necessarily go to some of these places.
Those areas of pleasure are oftentimes for the bosses. So
for workers like Max, really you are confined to either
the dorms or the office and you just basically go
(19:14):
from one place to the next, and there are guards
everywhere at all the entrants. Oftentimes there are armed guards.
You're heavily monitored when you're working in the office. You
have to turn in your phones before you start work,
and so the bosses are looking through what you're sending
to people. So Max had to be very very careful
about what he was sending out. There are cameras everywhere
(19:37):
inside these inside the offices, just watching people, making sure
you're working. I've also heard from sources of guards just
walking up and down the aisles as people are sitting
at their desk, just to make sure they are working.
Everything that they type on their computer is also monitored
(19:59):
by the bosses, so if you go off script, for instance,
the bosses will know, and so every single move you
make is watched. And then there's this immense pressure to
meet scam quotas. So Max and Jane told me that
their daily quota was about two thousand dollars a day.
(20:21):
Their team quota was twenty five thousand dollars a day,
and that's a team of thirteen people. So you divide
that by thirteen, it's two thousand dollars a day.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
So you can only imagine that US dollars.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
US dollars, so you can only imagine the amount of
money that's coming into these places, and if they don't
meet a certain quota, If they don't hit quota, there's punishment.
There's punishment like starvation, there's punishment like physical beatings, tortures
over time, things like that.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So wow, it just sounds so impossible that it could
be real, especially to get in to that situation the
way that Max well, and we don't spoil too much,
but all of the people that we follow in the
story end up in that position. I've heard of many
different types of scams. The one that is described that
(21:13):
they are performing is it was weird and different to
me that I just didn't I couldn't comprehend how they
would end up making money as scammers in this way
until you spell it out. I'd love to just describe
that a little bit. I don't know if it's specifically
called hotel hub or deal smashers or those things, but
it's this concept of roping somebody in through hotel reviews
(21:36):
and a complicated system of then that person putting money
back into the system to get money out. Can you
just describe some of that.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Yeah, I think I was also a little confused about
like the negative balance aspect of it. And how that works.
That would be super awesome if you could walk us
through it, because it's fascinating.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Yeah, it was. I mean, I'll be honest, I was
confusing when I first heard when I first heard of
this scam as well, because they also use interesting terms.
They call them customers and clients. They use terminology that's
really interesting, and I actually think part of that is
to make the workers feel like they're conducting legitimate business
(22:15):
in a way. It's psychological, right, the way that you frame.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
It's weaponized language, right.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
Yeah, So, Brillian, I think all of this is it's
all part of if you get any of these recruitment texts,
I think there's a lot of I've been getting a
lot of like, hey, are you looking for part time job?
I'm from a recruiting agency. And so the scam that
we talked about in this series specifically is a hotel
(22:42):
booking scam. So they pretend that they are from almost
like a hotel rating company that is asking people to
just for part time gig. Hey review a few hotels
for me, and we will give you some commission, will
throw us a couple dollars your way. Super easy work,
(23:03):
Sit on your couch, just rate some hotels. At some point,
the hook comes when they are asked to start to
write reviews for these hotels. And in order to write reviews,
you have to make some sort of hotel booking. And
in order to make the hotel booking, you put in
your money first, and then you'll be able to get
(23:25):
your money back out afterwards. In doing so, by putting
your money in upfront, you are allowing yourself to make
an even bigger commission. It is kind of confusing, but
I think what the scam does a really good job
of is that the scammer is trying to reassure you, Hey,
(23:46):
this complicated thing, don't worry. I'm going to simplify it
for you. All you got to do is just throw
the money in and like, don't even worry about how
this all works.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
All you got to know, I'll help you out. I'll
actually like, I'm your advocate here, You're.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
With you exactly, it's you and me as a team,
right exactly.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
All you got to do just put in the money.
I can just reassure you that you'll get even more
money back. And so at this point, I mean that's
the heart of the scam, where you like start to
develop a relationship with your scammer or your recruiter, you
think that they're looking out for you, and so you
start to believe, Okay, so far they have helped me
make a lot of money, so I have no reason
(24:25):
to not trust them at this moment in time, even
though I don't fully understand how this all works. And
so they'll put money in and know, like you were asking,
the negative balance comes up again where it's like, oh,
you know what, for some reason, it's a negative balance,
but don't worry. Just put more money in and you'll
get an even bigger reward at the end. And so
(24:45):
it's sort of like this cyclical thing. It doesn't fully
make sense, but I do think the heart of it
is that there's a level of trust. You trust that
this person you're talking to knows exactly what they're doing.
They understand the platform better than you. So the report
they're looking out for you for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Well it makes me think about the gig economy that
we all exist in now, where everybody is looking for
a second or third thing they can do on the
side to make just enough money to live right, to
be able to afford life. In twenty twenty five. And
this concept of picking up something on the side and
then just you know, doing reviews, doing rating, maybe even
(25:25):
delivering something. That kind of thing just is so regular,
that is just life.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
Now.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
I can see how people would get sucked in really easily.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
And the fact that it's remote, right, I feel like
everybody in these days are looking for they're looking for
remote work to do something quick and easy, make a
couple of bucks. And it's not like you're going to
make a huge salary from this, but hey, a couple
of hundred bucks helping something, yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, Well, and I guess maybe the irony too, is
that the person that's running that scam and that is
creating that rapport with the customer or whatever the per
that's being scammed, they themselves, the person running it, have
a relationship that is similarly toxic and like Stockholm syndrome
with their captors, right, and where they're incentivized and they
(26:14):
are able to somehow mentally in order to just deal
with the trauma of all of this, normalize all of
this in order to kind of keep from going nuts.
I mean, that's just it's mind blowing the idea that
you know you are having to do this to a person.
You speak to multiple people who have executed these games,
and they feel remorse, But in the moment, you're like
(26:36):
doing what you're told, and you're also maybe even a
little bit trying to do a good job, and maybe
you're also kind of good at it. It's fascinating. Yeah,
that's what psychology of it all.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
It's really twisted to be put in that sort of
position where you want.
Speaker 6 (26:50):
To succeed and hit target because of the environment you're in,
but at the same time you're very clear what you're
doing and you're manipulating the person on the other end, and.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
When the killing day comes, when you are actually scamming them. Yeah,
the rug pull where you realize where they realize, oh,
I'm not getting that money back. They feel it a lot,
and you know, Max is just you hear it in
the series, a lot of these characters really have a
tough time grappling with that.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
They're cleaning out elderly people's savings and things like that
as well. I mean, this is very it's the most
kind of predatory.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Also under threat. Right. The people perceived by the end mark, right,
are themselves being scammed through the establishment of manipulation and
rapport a cycle, as you said, Denise, of scam all
the way down. One of the questions that a lot
of folks are going to be asking when they hear
(27:57):
our conversation now is well, hey, what if I am
one of these people built into traveling to me and
mar right, and I realize stuff is not on the
up and up and I want to get out.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
What do I do?
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Is it possible for me to get out from under
the thumb of this scam industry? What happens in that case?
Speaker 5 (28:23):
It's very scary to be in a place like Memmr
where it is lawless and it's not easy to have
access to law enforcement.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Communications are monitored as well. I mean you are and
there's like guards, there's this whole shoot to kill. It's
almost like trying to stage a prison break or something
at a certain point.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. It's very hard to reach out.
I will say, if you are in a situation like that,
try your best to reach out to your embassy in
the area. Yes, I think that is the number one
place where they could possibly do something, to go through
(29:09):
perhaps the appropriate channels. In the series, we talked to
Colonel Mattalog who is the police attache in Thailand, and
he is from the Philippines embassy, and so that was
a really critical resource for Filipinos, the Philippine Embassy in Bangkok.
So depending on what country you are from, I would
(29:30):
say that is the first place to reach out to.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Not the hero of our story in anyways, your story.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
I don't want to I don't want to spoil too much,
but the concept that these each, each individual person is
a foreign worker working in me and Mar for a company, right,
and then mean More has this thing and I don't
know if this is right or not. I was just
doing some digging after listening to one of the episodes,
but I found a thing called the Me and Mar
Center for Responsible Business Complaints and Grievance, which is really
(30:01):
interesting and I don't know if it's actually directly related
to the story here, but it is a system set
up to where foreign companies operating in Meanmar are monitored
to some extent, not really but to some extent, right,
and then you're able to lodge a complaint as an
employee of one of these foreign companies and say, hey,
(30:23):
my human rights are being violated in one way or another.
Here is how I need help. How is that real?
How does that function?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Like?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
What is a complaint desk?
Speaker 5 (30:35):
Yes? If it sounds bizarre, right that the place it does,
a place that's completely flawless and wild, would have some
sort of complaint desk.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
It's like HRR, better business.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
Yeah, exactly, it's it's insane. And I remember feeling that
exact same way when I heard about it. I'm like, wait,
are you guys playing my leg here like they're you
could just feel like, hi, sorry, I have a complaint.
So yeah, So these compounds are actually run by a
(31:13):
group called the Border Guard Forces, and the Border Guard
Forces basically control the land that these compounds are on.
And so what that means is these Chinese syndicates that
are opening these start these compounds, they're not the actual
owners of the place. They're leasing the land from the
group like Border Guard Forces. And so the Border Guard Forces,
(31:35):
from our reporting, there's really not a level of loyalty
necessarily to their Chinese tenants. It's more so, hey, we're
letting you use this land. Don't give us any trouble.
And so I think a desk like this complaint desk
that exists in these compounds is their way of making sure. Hey,
(31:55):
we're we're doing our job. Like you know, if anybody
has any human rights complaints, they can come to this
plaint desk and just file it. That said, in the series,
when you know Colonel advises people to go to this
complaint desk, he is very clear that it's not a
foresure that just because you go to this complaint desk
you will get out. There is a lot of negotiation,
(32:16):
back and back channeling that is done in order to
get these people out. However, step one is to at
least just flag to the complaint desk. Hey, my embassy
knows that I am here, and they know that I
want to get out and there's a violation on my
human rights. I don't want to work here. I want
to get out.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Are there any have you encountered any fears of reprisal
for people reaching out to that complaint desk?
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Gosh, there have to be at least the threat of it, right,
And don't the employers get a day in court to
answer for their supposed crimes as well? Like they kind
of show up, don't they? Isn't that part of it?
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Yeah, Colonel is very clear when people go to the
complaint desk, don't leave. The complaint desk area is a
physical area. It's right, right, It's almost it's like when
you're playing tag, there's like a safe zone base. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
the safe base. So it's essentially like that. It's like,
don't leave, don't don't let them convince you to go
(33:18):
back to the dorms. Because there have been situations where
the bosses are so convincing they go, hey, no, just
go back. We can talk about it back in the dorms,
and they get brutally beaten and their chances of even
getting out again are very limited.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Well, sometimes they go to the desk after having already
been brutally beaten with signs of that kind of violence,
and yet there's still situations where they might be enticed
to go back. It just speaks to the absolute, you know,
Jedi level mind games that these folks are playing.
Speaker 5 (33:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
Hey, what do you say we take a quick break here,
a word from our sponsors, and then get right back
into this conversation about scam Factory, and we've returned at
this point.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
A lot of us listening now will wonder why this
practice continues, indeed, why this practice seems to have not
been in any way addressed nor in any actionable way
controlled to preserve the safety of these people who get
(34:36):
scammed in to scamming. So we have to ask why
why is no one stopping this?
Speaker 4 (34:43):
It's not even reported that widely. I hadn't heard about
it until we did a strange news segment about it
on the show. And this is very much Ben's wheelhouse
with international affairs and such. But I just don't feel
like it gets much traction in the American media, you know,
outside of your incredible series. It seems like a really
off the beaten path kind of story that a lot
of folks are absolutely clueless about.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
I think what often happens here in the US when
we report on these stories, it's usually from the standpoint
of the victim, right, the victim who gets the text
and ends up getting scammed. And so, you know, the
goal of telling the story from the perspective of the
scammers is, to Michael, was to really show how connected
(35:23):
we all are. Right, this is a story, Yes, it's
a human trafficking story that's happening all the way in
memr and it feels very very far away, and yet
these same people are very much so connected to us
over here, just simply through a text message. So that
human rights story that's happening over there is very much
something that we should all pay attention over here in
the US. But to your point then that what is happening?
(35:46):
What like, is anybody doing anything about this situation? You know,
these contents have existed for quite some time now. I
could started somewhere during the pandemic when it started to
really pick up. But it's been kind of exciting is
a weird word to use, but you know, I will
I will say that there's been a lot of renewed
(36:10):
attention on these scam compounds. I don't know if you've
heard recently. Earlier this year, there was news of a
Chinese actor who had been tricked. He thought he was
going for a casting call in Bangkok and he ended
up being in one of these compounds in Memar, and
that made huge news. And in addition to that, there
(36:33):
was also another Hong Kong pop star. His name is
Easan Chan. He was scheduled to have a concert in
Bangkok and he canceled it because he was scared that
fans were going to be abducted and taken into Meammar
to these scam compounds, and so both of those events
really just shine new light on the topic. And as
(36:58):
a result of that, there's been a lot of pressure
on the leaders of China and Thailand to do something
about it. And so in the last month in February,
we're seeing a lot of motion, like a lot of activity.
We saw Thailand shut off power in some of the
towns in Memmr for where these compounds are held. Just
(37:18):
last week. Okay, so I don't know when this is
going to air, but last week of February, the compounds,
a couple of compounds released about seven thousand people wow
out and so right now as we're speaking, they're all
hanging out in Memmar waiting to be repatriated back to
their perspective countries. And so that's huge. Seven thousand people
(37:40):
is a lot, and so it's going to be exciting
to see what other new developments are coming out, how
many are more are being released, and so on and
so forth. And actually KK Park, which is one of
the scam factories that we feature in our series, they
released I don't have an exact number, but they released
(38:02):
quite a number of people part of that seven thousand.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
That's anyone who is a regular listener of this show.
That's one of the ones we highlighted KK Park in
our previous episode on this whole situation.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
I think I was taking it back by that because
it literally is like a very professional seeming office park,
you know, but specifically designed for this very you know,
nefarious purpose.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
And folks, real quick, the Chinese actor we're referencing there
is Wong Shinging. I think, so this is getting more
and more international attention. Thousands of people.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, well, let's get a sense of scale here. This
is from reporting from The Guardian as of just a
couple of days ago. They're estimating around one hundred and
twenty thousand people across me mmr are in this situation,
living in a compound like this, forced to work in
this type of this type of job in that situation.
There's another one hundred thousand and estimated in Cambodia who
(39:02):
are having to do this. And you know, that's just
two countries where this type of stuff is happening. And
so you imagine seven thousand people is so many human
beings that are saved, but then there's so much work
left to do.
Speaker 5 (39:14):
Yeah, and there are just you'll hear news like this,
but then you'll hear, oh there's a new scam compound
being built in Dubai. Oh there are new compounds being
built in Africa, in South America. So it's it's like
whack a mole, right, you can't the hydra, Yeah, yeah,
you can't kill them off.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Yeah, I mean, I just I don't know. I get
so many scam calls, it's kind of ridiculous, and it
seems like it's gotten just worse and worse, and the
types of scams just seem to keep shifting, Like I
get this one all the time. Now that's saying that
they need more information for this loan that I applied for,
and it's their underwriting department and I get it.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Spoiler, folks, Noel did not actually apply.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
It did not. But it's indifferent voices, they leave messages,
it comes from all kinds of area codes, and it's
coming from this very uniform seeming script. So that's just
one that I've been inundated with. And I just wonder
if you have any thoughts about the are things like
that coming from these types of compounds as well? Is
that a red flag? The idea that it's the scripted
(40:20):
thing with different voices, maybe with spoofed numbers, or how
do they reach us, you know, with this kind of stuff,
and how do you see the evolution of these types
of scams even as governments take action and close some
of these places down.
Speaker 5 (40:35):
I don't know for sure if all of the calls
are from these scam centers. I wouldn't be surprised right now,
from what I've heard of from my sources is that
there's a big focus on AI anybody like AI talent
because you know, as you can imagine, if you can
use AI to talk to people, not rely on people
(40:59):
trans late to chat with people, like, it's only going
to become more and more realistic, and that's really scary. Yes,
So that, like, I wouldn't surprise me that they're doing
things like that, But that only means we should all
just be more vigilant of any strange calls, any texts
(41:20):
from strangers.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, to anybody that wants to video chat with you.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Do you have any tips and any tips you might
pass on to folks who in this climate just things
to listen out for without just being completely paranoid and
distrustful of everything, you know, I mean yeah, I don't
know if if if you in the course of your
reporting kind of learned some things to look for and
maybe some suggestions you might give to listeners, you know,
(41:45):
trying to be be vigilant.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
As we're saying, also, Denise, thank you for hopping on
this video chat with us. Jeez, but that's a that's
a great question. So we're we're hearing these very scary things.
We're also learning to exercise empathy for the people who
got scammed into scamming in your work. As Noel was asking,
(42:11):
do we arrive at some basic like day one tips
for the vigilance you describe.
Speaker 5 (42:21):
I am the first to admit that now I am
so paranoid of any of any text I got my
way the other day. Just last night, my boyfriend got
a texted was like, Hey, I'm your neighbor, like can
you turn down the music? My name is Debbie. And
we're like, we don't have a neighbor named Debbie. Why
is this their new way to scam people? Now it
(42:43):
turns out it was a wrong number, but I was like,
oh no, oh.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
My gosh, what's going on with Debbie?
Speaker 5 (42:50):
Well, so, you know, like I'm constantly worried about this
kind of stuff. But I would say, you know, I'll
give the advice that I give to my mom because
that is what I often times do. One is I
would tell her, do not talk to anybody who's tried
to sneak into your talk to you on Facebook, on WhatsApp,
like any strangers, Like, just don't talk to them. If
(43:12):
somebody is reaching out to you that pretends that they're
from some sort of legitimate company, really try to verify.
What they will often do is if you look closely
at the website they give you, check for the legitimate website,
like google it on your own, just to make sure
it's the real site. Look at email addresses. Sometimes they'll
(43:35):
change like one single letter just to make themselves seem
like they're from the company, but they're really not.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Make sure that you are L is the real U
R L exactly?
Speaker 5 (43:43):
Yes, yes, I do RU there you go, they sneak in,
But yeah, I think that that's That's one thing. And
then if in doubt, I would also seek out second
third opinions just to like make sure, so like a
double verify, Like my momost and me all these texts
and emails these days and I'll be like, don't respond.
(44:05):
That's a scam. That's a scam. That's a scam.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (44:09):
And actually the biggest thing is if you're in conversation
with any of these people, if anybody asked you to
set up a crypto account, that is a big red flag.
Speaker 4 (44:18):
You know, don't give my Amazon gift cards another one
anything like that. That's like untraceable, and yes, yes.
Speaker 5 (44:25):
That's it. Don't don't set up a crypto account to
do that with strangers.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Just just while we're here, I want to talk about
a character named Jella that we meet inside the series,
and she is somebody who was She was doing the
hotel reviews scam or you know, one of the one
of the other scams for a while, but she wasn't
very good at it because she just couldn't convince people
to you know, sink all their money into stuff. So
(44:51):
she got transferred to another office. I don't know if
it was the same company or a different company, just
in the same compound, but she was doing a essentially
a honey pot scam, but just with a whole room
full of people doing the same scam where they're trying
to get people to video chat and do lude things
on video.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
For blackmail extortion.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
It's just incredible to think that there are rooms of
human beings forced to do that type of work. And
then we hear stories, especially of younger people, they get
caught up in something like that. Who you know a
younger person that thinks they've got oh wow, here is
potentially a crusher or you know a relationship that I
could build and it just turns into something that can
(45:35):
destroy your entire life. You highlight the possibility of self
harm in some of these situations with another university student
who gets caught up in one of these things. It's
just I don't even really have a question here, Denise.
It's just it's so important for all of us to
know that this stuff exists to arm our minds against
(45:59):
it at least a lot little bit.
Speaker 5 (46:01):
Yeah, I think to your point about Jella, it's like
Jella ends up doing a number of different scams and
without giving everything away, she is reaching out to people
when she does the sextortion scam, it's she's on dating
platforms like she's on that kind of problem. Then she
(46:23):
does she gets moved to another department where they're doing
pig butchering scams on Amazon's shop like it's just you
can't avoid it. They are coming everywhere to try and
develop relationships with people. YIX be careful.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Yes, as you said earlier, the vigilance is key, and
we're exploring this sort of stuff together. Obviously. You know,
the weird thing about the age of ubiquitous social media,
the fact that anyone around the world can contact anyone else.
(47:05):
We would have logically assumed it brought people together, but
it seems to have made people a bit more lonely.
So we have to ask ourselves about the human drive
to connect, right and how that human that fundamental human
drive can be weaponized against people. You know, sometimes we
(47:29):
end these kind of conversations with the with our little
takeaway being like call your mom, you know, call your dad,
check in on the older folks in your life, especially
people who are not, as we would say, native to
this world. And one thing that we really want to
(47:51):
emphasize with your work in Scam Factory is that, as
you point out, this is a continuing story. This does
not this does not end with, you know, a nice
bow wrapped to top the gift. Is there is there
a way out for people currently experiencing this on either
(48:14):
side of the phone. We talked about contacting and embassy.
We talked about a couple of day one kind of
things we can do to protect our loved ones. Where
do you see this industry of scam factories going in
the future. Is there any kind of stop gap?
Speaker 4 (48:34):
Is there?
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Is it accelerating what's going on?
Speaker 5 (48:38):
I hope that there's going to be a stop gap,
but I hope that there will be change. It's hard
to It's really hard to predict, right, because these compounds
are growing so fast. I remember over the course of
my reporting, I reported on this for about two years.
Even when I would look at satellite image of Kkparks specifically,
(49:02):
every month, there'd be new buildings being built, like they're
just constantly growing and things aren't changing.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Just the amount of money that goes in there. Right,
you said twenty five thousand dollars a day quota for
one office, and we're imagining there's a ton of offices, right.
Speaker 5 (49:20):
Yeah, yeah, I mean some companies are making The stat
I had was four hundred thousand dollars a day for
just one single company. So the amount of money that's
coming through it could be billions of dollars, and so
when you think about how much money is going into
these compounds, you can imagine there's like a lot of
incentive to like make sure it keeps going. So there's
(49:44):
a lot of you know, when you're building things at
this scale, it requires a lot of people to allow
it to happen. And so there's also that which is
what makes it sometimes a bit hard to well, not
a bit, it makes it very hard to stop and
to hold people accountable.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Can we talk about how I think Charlie. There's a
moment where Charlie wants to go see her brother, and
in order to do that, she negotiates with the character
we're calling dev in the story. But then she ends
up meeting people who want to go. They are aware
that it's a scam factory style thing, they know exactly
(50:27):
what it is, and they want to go there to
make money, and they're like, Yeah, that's great, that sounds great,
I'll go. I guess that blows my mind because it
does seem like, at least within the story of Scam Factory,
that there are human beings who are aware of the
situation in the compounds and still want to go because
there's a belief that perhaps they can make money for
(50:47):
a few years and then get out.
Speaker 5 (50:50):
Yeah, there definitely is that. And actually, when I spoke
to Colonel there are actually people who at trapped there
but end up staying because they think, you know what,
at the end of the day, I may not be
doing something that is above water, is above word, but
I am making more money than I would make at home.
(51:12):
So I would rather stay here and at least be
able to send money back, and I have all the
amenities I need, which is really crazy that they these
places become almost a better place to exist in work,
then they would be back home.
Speaker 4 (51:31):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Yeah, it's a devil you know, situation sometimes, right, the
idea that we may we may address or engage with
with a morally fraud kind of enterprise and in doing
so perhaps justify for ourselves a greater good. Right, I
(51:54):
am helping my family, I am pursuing an opportunity and
always just for a limited time that perhaps is the
most It's that's yeah, it's.
Speaker 5 (52:10):
Super insidious, and I think that's they weaponize this notion
of family. They use family to recruit, they use family
to extort, and they use family to control, Like they're
using family to do all of the above to keep
workers doing exactly what they want them to do.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Thank you so much, Denise for hanging out with us
and telling us just about the show you've made. For
this episode, Wow, this is this is?
Speaker 3 (52:40):
Are you kidding? Thank you for bringing this story further
into the world, because it's something that is so easy
to ignore. Right It's common parlance here in the West
for people to say, oh, you'll never guess what kind
of scam text I got, and it's very easy to
(53:00):
forget that they're real people on the other side of
that line. Scam Factory is available now. Spoilers, folks, It's
really good. We're not blowing spoke on this one. The reporting,
Denise you have done got us to I can't speak
for my palace, Matt and noll At. A couple times
(53:23):
in the show, I was wondering, Holy shit, is Denise
going to be okay reporting this? You know what I mean?
Did you ever feel that you yourself were going to
get targeted for bringing this to the world. I hope
the answer is no.
Speaker 5 (53:38):
I mean no, It's in the back of my mind.
You know. In the early stages there were reporters who
didn't want to work with me on this because of
safety concerns, and so that is also one of the
reasons why we don't use we use pseudonyms on the series,
because you know, these are people who have escaped from
criminal syndicates and so they're very afraid, and so that
(54:00):
is something that we had to take a lot of
Karen and really making sure that we do what we
can to protect their identity because it's very very brave
of them to come share their story. But also on
top of that, it's taxing, right, this is a traumatic
experience that they have gone through, and so as a
reporter or the other thing that is very front of
(54:22):
mine for me is really making sure that we are
doing trauma informed reporting and making sure that they are
they they have, they're in control as they're sharing their
stories with us. So I would thank my sources for
speaking and sharing their stories.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
I have a potentially dumb question, what is the syndicate?
Like we talked about it, but is it multiple criminal organizations?
Is are there a couple that are just controlling a
lot of this stuff or they like I'm imagining all
these different front companies right that are operating in some way.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
Who's the stakeholder cough cough.
Speaker 5 (55:02):
So from my understanding, it's not like there's one family
crime or criminal organization on the top of everything. It's
all like the you know, this isn't Batman. So I
don't know how many how many people are in charge
at the top. I think there are a lot of entrepreneurs.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
I recall it that entrepreneurs.
Speaker 5 (55:26):
Who see this as an opportunity to make money. And
I've even heard of like this is really crazy, but
I've heard of things like a startup kit that have
been being distributed as to like how you can set
up your own scamming like scamming company. And so because
of that, it's it's kind of scary in that you
(55:47):
can see it as entrepreneurship. And so therefore you can't
really pinpoint who is at the top of all of this.
But there has been reporting of of some individuals who've
been funding some of these things.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
And then yeah, and we can't thank you enough for
your time bringing this story to the world.
Speaker 4 (56:07):
You have to be so busy.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
And we are are grateful that you're even hanging out
with us here. We usually, you know, just for the record,
tell Stoners about Bigfoot. So can I get away with
that one if we're going to keep it in. So
this is this, Thanks Andrew. This is something more people
(56:32):
need to know about, Denise. Is there a place where
people can learn more about your work, not just with
this project scam Factory, but with your other endeavors and projects.
Speaker 5 (56:45):
Thank you for asking, Ben. I was just thinking this
morning that I should really get my website so that
people can see my work. But yeah, for the time being,
you can probably you can follow me on social media
Denise k Chan and on LinkedIn probably the best way
to see my work, and eventually, hopefully by the time
(57:06):
this is up, you can find me on my website.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (57:12):
Of course, thank you, and there you have it, fellow
conspiracy realist. We have followed up on our earlier episode
about KK Park and the troubled order of Meam mark guys. Honestly,
scam Factory. It's really good, It really really is.
Speaker 4 (57:33):
It's just beautifully researched and reported, obviously, and also the
sound design is top notch and very immersive without you know,
kind of getting in the way. Really can't wait to
hear more. I think there's one more episode to drop
as we sit and record this today.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, yeah, and some of us have listened and it
uh wow, just you should listen. I'll put it that way.
I don't want to spoil anything. It is such a
crazy story. And have you said something at the top,
know all about Charlie, that character Charlie just following the
journey all the way to the end.
Speaker 3 (58:11):
Yeah, this is something that really hit me. You guys,
Denise Chan and her team are looking at the human
consequences that we explored briefly, but they're looking at it
in depth. You know, there's always someone else on the
other side of the phone, and we know that it
can be so tempting and easy to clown folks who
(58:36):
are scammers, but we have to ask where that person
is coming from and whether they want to be there.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
Yeah, And it's a scam all the way down and
all the way up, everybody scamming everybody in the chain
when it comes to this, and guys, it made me
just think about I don't know, some stuff I kind
of don't want to say on the mic, just about
jobs in general, taxes and oh boy, getting scammed. Just heay, No,
we just need you to work a little bit longer
(59:03):
you'll retire one day. No, no, no, we promise. Yeah,
you'll retire. You'll go on that cruise. You'll be sixty,
maybe eighty, but go on a cruise for sure.
Speaker 3 (59:12):
Yeah. Just keep just keep digging, and pay no attention
to the gun at the back of your head.
Speaker 2 (59:18):
Y yeah.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
Yeah, and remember you're only renting the shovel anyway, not
keeping it too dark. We want to hear your thoughts, folks.
Please check out Scam Factory, and please, please please remember
that this show only happens with your support. You are
the most important part of our exploration. As such, we
would love to hear from you. The rumors are true.
(59:42):
You can find us on email. You can find us
on a telephonic device of your choice. You can also
sip the social means.
Speaker 4 (59:52):
Indeed, you can find us the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where
it gets crazy. On YouTube, we have video content galore
for you to enjoy, as well as on x FKA, Twitter,
on Instagram and TikTok. We're Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, it's a voicemail system.
Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know within
the message if we can use your name and message
on the air. If you've got more to say, they
could fit a three minute message. Maybe you've got links,
maybe you've got photographs, other attachments. Why not send us
(01:00:29):
a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we received. Be well aware, yet unafree. Sometimes the void
writes back. Big, big thank you to our many fellow
listeners who checked in about our run of classic episodes. Guys,
remember we did some classic episodes for about a week there.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Yes we did, Indeed we did.
Speaker 5 (01:00:55):
We did.
Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
We're back in the saddle. Just to let everybody know
who asked, we are okay, we are live. We are
making this show with our own consent. Conspiracy at iHeartRadio
dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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