Was Jeffrey Epstein A Spy?

By now, the story of Jeffrey Epstein is familiar to people across the globe. A once-obscure financier, fixer, child abuser and sex trafficker who died under murky circumstance in prison, Epstein is a parable of the dangers of power and perversion. Yet in tonight's episode, Ben and Matt explore a dangerous question that's haunted them ever since they began looking into the case: Was Epstein just a wealthy monster? What was his real motivation? Could it be possible that he was working for someone else, and gathering compromising information for a larger, more mysterious goals? What if Epstein wasn't just a well-heeled criminal?

What if he was a spy?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Our colleague Noel is on adventures.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
But will be returning soon. They call me Ben, and
so can you. We're joined as always with our super
producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you arg
you you are here. That makes this the stuff they
don't want you to know. And folks, as we're recording
on Friday, April seventeenth, we are returning to the continuing

(00:56):
saga of the disgraced financier, fixer and child abuser Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Matt, so tired? Are you talking about this so much?

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Is that the audience?

Speaker 2 (01:08):
No, that's the White House?

Speaker 3 (01:10):
Oh that's the White House? Yeah, yeah, that's apropos. Actually,
with some recent news we'll get to We have been
reporting on this bizarre, listing, disturbing journey of conspiracy for
years and years at this point, but tonight we are
diving in yours truly, Matt and Tennessee, diving into one

(01:32):
of the lesser known aspects of Epstein's life and criminal career.
The question is what if his trafficking ring and his
web of associates. What if these were not simply a
horrific case of sexual predators. What if Epstein and maybe
some of his co conspirators had a different motive of

(01:55):
which abuse was only a part. The question on the
table tonight is if Jeffrey Epstein was actually a spy?
For who?

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Right?

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Right?

Speaker 1 (02:06):
And when?

Speaker 3 (02:07):
And how? And how many? Who's Here are the facts?
All right, we'll blast through this for anybody who is unfamiliar,
here's what you need to know in broad strokes. For
most of his adult life, Jeffrey Epstein was known as
a very well connected financier to the Western world's rich

(02:32):
and powerful, multiple homes, tons, shadowy money that people still
can't really trace. He knew pretty much anybody worth knowing
to one degree or another, and at the same time,
as proven in US courts, he and his partner Gillen Maxwell,
were also running an ambitious and complex sex trafficking ring.

(02:55):
They were acquiring teenage girls, not just for Jeffrey Epstein
himself to pre date on, but also for many of
the other people in his social sphere or his ostensible
financial network. And Matt, you know, I think we've done
a pretty good job in the past pointing out that

(03:15):
not everybody involved with Epstein was also involved with his
trafficking activities, the same way that some people just worked
with Sean Combs on music right and didn't go to
freak golfs.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Absolutely, just because of how connected Epstein was. As we're
talking about in financial markets, he was often somebody who
would give advice as a consultant of sorts. He was
somebody who would make purchases of vast buildings or expensive

(03:51):
homes in countries throughout the world, and including I don't
know if we're getting in this today. Al Jazeera reported
recently that Epstein's specifically was offered a chance to buy
US government buildings right near the Pentagon and FBI buildings,
so he would be like a landowner for the US government.

(04:12):
Very weird stuff, Lady. He's so connected that not everybody
he ran into ended up at the parties exactly.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yeah, And Al Jazeira has done some phenomenal reporting on this.
We cannot thank the journalists there at the New York
Times New York magazine and so many other places, including Newsweek.
We can't thank you all enough. Epstein wanted to be
the guy that everybody knew if they were rich or

(04:40):
if they were powerful. So he flew athletes, celebrities, politicians,
royalty business tycoons around the world, and he contributed a
lot of money to campaigns like for the Clintons and
for various other officials. He donated to charities, He donated
to communities, especially in Israel, and a lot of leaders

(05:04):
of various initiatives would reach out to him for financial
assistance or for guidance on networking, like Hey, Jeff, can
you introduce me to this guy? And usually Jeff would say, yeah,
I think it's fair to say that. To a lot
of people in his social sphere, after a certain point,

(05:25):
his predilections were an open secret, even if they were
not participating, they would notice that there were a lot
of very young folks around Jeffrey Epstein and around his
partner Glaine. But it is true that there were people
in his sphere who likely didn't know about the sex
trafficking and just thought, Hey, that's cool. This guy's given

(05:47):
me a free ride on his private jet.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, it's weird, because you've got a great area here
with some of the folks in the Epstein files who
are stating publicly, Hey, I didn't know anything about the
activities that were going down, but I was exchanging emails
with Jeffrey Epstein or texts with him about quote his girls. Right,
bring your girls along, somebody, And I'll just call somebody

(06:11):
out right here at the top, someone who's named in
the files, like Deepak Chopra, who is shown to be
corresponding with Epstein about his girls, but then makes those statements,
I had no idea that anything untoward was happening. And
where is where that is a gray area, right, because oh,

(06:35):
we don't know exactly what happened at a lot of
these like Shindig's right, the kind of more Dinner for
Schmuck's kind of gatherings that would occur where it's a
bunch of interesting people getting together and having all these talks,
like with Noam Chomsky and things like that, and what
happens at those parties, what happens after those parties. We
don't know the specifics of all that stuff outside of

(06:55):
witness statements that are often included in sometimes redacted in
the Epstein files.

Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, or for example, the very hair splitting statements from
people like Alan Dershowitz, who are going to spend some
time on tonight, who famously said, Nope, I kept my
underwear on during my massage because my marriage is great. Yep.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, I've heard so many things about that dude, just
just a scuttle but from authors and professors out there
in the islands, over there in the you know, Boston
area kind of thing, Just really interesting stories about this dude.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
It reminds me a lot of when Giuliani got caught
in that. I think it was the Borat film from
Sasha Baron Cohen where he's laying down a in a
hotel room and clearly undoing his fly and taking out
his shirt or untucking his shirt, and then he later
was like, oh, he's just readjusted myself. You know, I was.

(07:59):
I was eight during nine to eleven. You guys are jerks.
But it is an important point about that gray area,
as we're calling it, and as we know, like as
we're recording today, victims of Epstein and his fellow predators
are still fighting for justice. Just last week, in fact,
a group of victims sued the Trump administration and Google

(08:23):
because their personal information was disclosed in some of these files.
So we've said this before. One of the really creepy
things about how the US authorities are handling disclosure is
that they are protecting the alleged predators. They're redacting those folks' names.
They're not redacting or protecting the information of the victims.

(08:47):
And we don't know the extent of his actual co conspirators.
We don't have all their names, we don't have the
details of the abuse. And given the tremendous influence of
such powerful people, it's fair to say, I would argue
that a large part of us in the public, we
assume these alleged co conspirators are using their tremendous financial, political,

(09:12):
and social heft to keep the truth buried as long
as possible. The most famous of the alleged Epstein co
conspirators is, of course, the current President of the United States,
Donald J. Trump.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Isn't it weird how much of a big deal that
appears to be from the bulk of data that exists
or appears to exist within the Epstein files, and then
how little attention it is paid by the administration. Lots
and lots of distractions. I am glad hey. As we're

(09:47):
recording to date Friday, April seventeenth, it appears that one
of the Epstein files distractions, the straight Offorn Movez closing up,
is somewhat resolved at least temporari really per Iran.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
If you ask the United States, they'll say, the blackade
is still on.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Come on, they're still talking about it. Maybe we need
to let this go so we can have oil again
and then we could talk about this later.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Some of my buddies were, Oh, and also China is
supplying arms to Iran officially. Now. Some of my buddies
who are deployed were telling me that now the food
is sucking aboard the craft, like the days of steak
and lobster are gone. That's just the nice thing before
they screw you over right, the greeny Weenie. So now

(10:38):
the Navy is encountering supply chain problems, and the two
countries at the heart of the conflict are each spinning
their own narratives which do not jibe with each other.
It's a very strange info war.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Well in the very real concern right now across the
world are oil reserves and who has how much left.
How long is that going to last? Us? Specifically airline fuel,
so like jet fuel. There's a story that just came
out recently stating that Europe has quote maybe six weeks
of jet fuel left as of April sixteenth, which you know,

(11:21):
probably not a good thing.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah, And speaking of non ideal situations as we call them,
Iran is in a spiraling economic crisis. Water is still
very much a concern. The economy is collapsing in Iran.
Check out Confessions of an Economic hit Man. If you
want to learn more about how the big dogs operate

(11:46):
when they don't like another country. Right, and you don't
always have to fire missiles. You can just use sanctions,
you can just devalue a currency, you can create the
rot from within. And that's very much what's happening now
while this all is occurring. There's this so there are
two context right. There's a microcosmic context of the Jeffrey

(12:10):
Epstein conspiracy. There's a macro context as well, And we're
getting into the macro part in tonight's episode. We know
that this guy was so sketchy and so weirdly evil
that people will still tell you that maybe he didn't
really die The official explanation is that on August tenth,

(12:33):
twenty nineteen, he expired and took his own life. But
there are a ton of questions and was very interesting
to see that just last year there was a poll
from a place called you gov and it reported that
now fully half of the American public believes that Epstein
was murdered. It was a victim of homicide, not of suicide,

(12:56):
and it's easy to understand that because the video footage
is blatantly altered. We talked about that in the past.
The guards had shifting stories and a lot of mysterious
financial activity leading up to Epstein's death. There are people
right now who are convinced, including our friend Mike render
Killer Mike, that Epstein never actually died, that the video

(13:18):
footage was edited because his co conspirators secretly spirited him
away to escape justice. There's no solid proof, obviously at
this point, but most people are not buying the suicide narrative,
and remaining questions about what happened just feed more speculation.

(13:39):
It thrives in the lack of transparency, so it doesn't
seem set to stop anytime soon. If there is one
person on the planet who could give the public the
most comprehensive answers about Epstein's criminal empire. It is his accomplice,
Gallain Maxwell, and she is not talking until she gets

(14:00):
a deal.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
If you'll remember, if you're following along with this twisted
little story, Glaine was convicted in twenty twenty one, several
years after Epstein was found dead. Let's shut it that way, okay. Yeah,
And you know, we've seen over the course of reporting
from multiple news outlets that she has been given all

(14:22):
kinds of interesting treatment. She's also, let's say, been scrutinized
by personal by a personal attorney of the current sitting president.
She has been offered things, given things potentially, and she
has made a lot of statements, and most of them
have been about how certain people, especially ones in the

(14:44):
White House, didn't do anything wrong.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yeah, those certain people. That's like our episode on laws
for a certain Russian president. The certain people we're talking
about here include the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump,
but also, to be fair, former presidents like Bill Clinton.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
And Donald J.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Trump and Donald J.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Trump.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
And so far, she has denied any of the accusations
against her, including the stuff she was convicted of. Several
sex crimes, including child sex trafficking. She is currently sentenced
to twenty years in prison. She got some mysterious sweetheart
deal where she went to a lower security facility, kind

(15:24):
of a camp fed thing, and the charges she has
would typically preclude somebody from going to one of those
sweetheart prison systems. But she responds through her legal team,
which is led by a guy named David Oscar Marcus,

(15:46):
a disciple of Alan Dershowitz. By the way, she says
that she needs a pardon and clemency, and once she
is given that pardon and that clemency, she will testify
freely up to and including speaking directly to Congress. Just recently,
her main lawyer running points on her case, David Oscar Marcus,

(16:09):
said that he is confident the current US president will
agree to this demand. But I don't know.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Just we'll get into Dershwitz a little more later later,
and I think we are getting into it. But there
are a lot of connections that are alleged by usually
unnamed anonymous sources that at one point spoke with the FBI,
and that conversation ended up in the Epstein files, And
there are a lot of connections to Dershowitz through people

(16:39):
like Jared Kushner or Josh Kushner, or this fellow we
just mentioned here, David Oscar Marcus, others that are directly
connected to Dershowitz at Harvard or via Harvard, and then
the intelligence apparatus.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
Oh, one hundred percent. And I'm so glad you're mentioning
that it is impossible to overstate how high the stakes
are here, folks. Maxwell and her team have had unrecorded
meetings with representatives of the POTUS. If Galley Maxwell does testify,
this could fundamentally shake the pillars of not just US politics,

(17:18):
but US society. There's already been to that note about academia,
There's already been a wave of resignations in the upper
reaches of academia, government, and business as more and more
of these details continue to come to light. Again, nobody
else except for Jeffrey Epstein and Galai Maxwell have been convicted.

(17:40):
Nobody else has seen a day in court. I think
Prince Andrew got like a smack on the wrist, and
now he has to stay in a slightly less opulent
a state.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
I agree with that point, Ben, I would say that
losing your position in the royal family is probably one
of the worst things that can happen to you as
a royal, right, it must sure, even though it's popping circumstances,
it's it's it's title only and all that other stuff.
He doesn't stand to inherit the throne unless a bunch

(18:11):
of other things happened while he is still in the
royal family. But that's a big deal. The history books
are gonna say, yeah, you got kicked out of the
royal family. That's a big deal for people, I think
in those upper echelons.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, unless those history books are published by Robert Maxwell's
Rushing Empire. Anyway, I am Jack's lack of empathy, okay,
for for every buddy, But you're making a big point.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Well, he is kind of a monster, maybe yeah for
a little bit, Yeah, yeah, a little bit.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
And this is the quick update. Check out our previous
episodes for more details. But there is another question, folks,
that has haunted Tennessee and Matt and yours truly for
quite some time, which is a very simple question on
the offset, Why do all this in the first place?

(19:07):
Why put so much effort into not just abusing children,
but into getting other people to participate in that abuse
as well, because we know that if you are genuinely
just trying to commit any kind of crime and get
away with it, every new accomplice you bring into your
circle is another potential avenue of exposure. So you want

(19:30):
to keep that circle as small as possible, right, because.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
That's a huge deal. Ben, That's a major point, right right.
And I think we've mentioned it before, but really let
that sync in as you're listening or watching this. We
say our time, Ben, every single person.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
Every single person, every new accomplice that you include in
your cabal is another potential avenue of exposure. It goes
back to that old way, that old saw that we
used to throw around in the United States. If three
people want to keep a secret for real, two of
them have to die, you know. That's the issue. And

(20:12):
so this guy is like franchising sexual abuse and he's
documenting it, he's getting evidence on people doing this. So
we started to ask ourselves, what if this sexual abuse
was not the real end goal. What if Epstein and
some of his collaborators had something else in mind, and

(20:33):
maybe sexual abuse was only one aspect of a larger ambition.
What if Jeffrey Epstein in addition to being a very perverted,
dangerous dude. What if he was actually also a spy?
You know?

Speaker 2 (20:50):
And it sounds out there when you just say it
like that, but man, we've seen stuff in the past
that meets these kinds of criteria, and he's sure doing
a good job making it look like he's a spy.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
That's a good way to say it. We'll be right back.
Here's where it gets crazy, all right, the spy angle.
We have talked about this a lot off air. We
we're just hanging out, and we've been following the news
and the redactions pretty closely. This wouldn't this angle does

(21:32):
not get reported as often as other aspects of the
Epstein scandal, right, because, of course people were victimized as children,
people ended up dying. But the idea that he was
running espionage operations is not as bonkers as it might
sound at first blush. The gist is this okay to

(21:52):
lay out the conspiracy playing. The idea is that through
financial and sexual exploits, Epstein was not just you know,
helping out his friends, but he was gathering massive amounts
of evidence and documentation of their crimes as a way
of compromising high level members of business, society, and politics,

(22:13):
because once those folks are compromised, his co conspirators themselves
become another class of victims. And now we're armed with
this indisputable evidence of your activities. So if we are Epstein,
we're working with possibly our hidden bosses through an air gap,
we are able to force these VIPs to do whatever

(22:36):
we want. So that could be something like, hey, pass
this law, make this policy, agree to this war in
the Middle East, right, or agree to this conflict, or
it could say bury this policy, right, ignore this law,
don't let this ever see the light of day, or
you know, it could say we could say, move this
money for us. You are now a proxy for money laundry.

(22:59):
Or we could say, hey, you just have to give
us a bunch of money, or we're going to let
the public know what you did to that girl, right.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Melp I The most compelling version of it I've heard
is you use the activities Epstein is doing and catching
people up in to make deals happen, basically to lubricate
large transactions and ensure that everybody who's on both ends

(23:30):
of those transactions has to make sure it happens or
at least one person is leveraged so hard because there's
weight underneath them or over top of them with their
activities they took part in that. If it doesn't happen,
they're going to be in big trouble exactly.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yeah, it's mutually a short destruction at some point. And
this could also be by the way, working for Epstein
to cover up his earlier crimes, like that insane sweetheart
deal cost And gave him when he was first convicted
in Florida.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Well, let's talk about that really quickly. Just ye we
mentioned before, we talk about almost every time you talk
about Epstein because it is so mind blowing the type
of deal that Jeffrey Epstein got when he was convicted
in two thousand and eight, this in Florida. It was
for procuring a child for quote, prostitution and solicitation of
a prostitute. There was what was the sentence, It was like.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
Fourteen fourteen eighteen eight months. Yeah, it was less than
two years in what they call a work release program
at the county jail. So he had his own office
that he would just go to every day and hang
out at. And then and then Acosta has an interesting
career because later, it seems like he got rewarded for

(24:49):
cracking this deal, and there are allegations that he got
touched by people associated with US intelligence who said, hey, yes,
this guy is an ass we have to protect him.
And that's also it's also just heartbreaking that they they
lowered the sentence in a way that also is incredibly

(25:13):
disrespectful to the victim. They called a non consenting child, right,
like a fourteen year old. They called her a sex worker. Well,
they called her prostitute, Yes they did, And that's disgusting
that the legal system is not supposed to have that
kind of stuff happened.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
The mind blowing part eighteen months conviction serves thirteen months
for that charge. But the reason the deal was so
important to Epstein personally is that it meant he wouldn't
be charged for trafficking a bunch of other underage girls.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
Right.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
So it's like, I don't know how to how to say,
It's like pleading guilty to a murder charge to avoid
you know, twenty charges of assault with a deadly weapon
or something, right, but it's way worse than that.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Yeah, I mean, at the offset, it sounds almost too
cinematic to be real. Right. It sounds like a conspiracy
film or a conspiracy novel, the kind of thing John
lecair would write. But we have to remember the world's
intelligence agencies have been doing this stuff for ever. Name
any country that is active on the international stage, and folks,

(26:25):
the odds are that you will find at least a
few examples of these practices. Honeytraps, blackmail, what Russia calls
compromat with a K Israel, Russia, China, UK and of
course the US have done this to one degree or
another on a pretty frequent basis. It doesn't always work.

(26:45):
Shout out to Suharto, but at this point we may
as well consider it a proven tool of state craft
up there with sanctions, because it's difficult to prove the
case of blackmail or compromat in court, and the targets
of these options, the folks who would normally be our
key witnesses, they're usually going to do everything in their

(27:06):
power to suppress the evidence of their compromise. They're not
going to help the investigation. We say, everything in their
power we being up to and including murder. They will
kill people.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
For this, Okay, So imagine this is hard to do.
Imagine that you are caught up in some kind of
blackmail thing for doing something you know you shouldn't have done,
and imagine someone is holding that over your head and
they are just making sure you get things done. You
may want to go to the authorities and say, hey,

(27:40):
this person is blackmailing me. But if you are guilty
for and you know you are guilty for the things
that person is blackmailing you for, you are it's digging
your own grave by going after that person, and you're
there's an awareness of that, right, That's what this whole
control mechanism is about.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
With compromise on hundred percent. Yeah, and also add to that,
the authorities that you're trying to report to if you
do cross that rubicon, may themselves be compromised.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, may you? No, you're right, may may I just
feel like everybody is at this point. Let's jump really
quickly here before we jump into the new stuff that's
come out in like late twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six,
just quickly to this skeptic article written by Mark Hoffer

(28:29):
October second, twenty twenty five, a time right before the
primary or a couple of the primary drops of the
Epstein files were released. So this is October of twenty five,
In December of twenty five, in January of twenty six,
we have the main the two primary releases via the

(28:51):
Epstein Files Transparency Act, and then the last one in
March twenty six. So this is right before the big releases.
Is writing about this concept of Jeffrey Epstein as quote
belonging to intelligence, and in this article it goes pretty

(29:11):
hard on a journalist and best selling author, Vicky Ward.
She's an investigative journalist. She wrote a piece in twenty
nineteen for The Daily Beast, an opinion piece titled Jeffrey
Epstein's six Story played out for years in plain sight.
And within this opinion piece that Vicky wrote for The
Daily Beast in twenty nineteen, a former senior White House

(29:34):
official recounted a story about Jeffrey Epstein allegedly having some
kind of business dealings with intelligence or being connected to intelligence.
And this is what starts a huge chain of people
like Joe Rogan and Megan Kelly and Mike Ben's, Candice Owens,

(29:57):
and Tucker Carlson stating pretty conclusive, Oh well, now we
know Evstein was tied to intelligence. When this is one
anonymous person, right, that's being talked about in an opinion piece,
and the I would just say, the Skeptic article does
a pretty good job making the case that that person

(30:17):
that allegedly Vicky Word spoke to was not a Costa,
as it is thought to have been by a lot
of these other commentators, but it was likely Steve Bannon,
which we know is like the yard spinner of all
yard spinners when it comes to flooding the zone and
putting out false narratives and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
And I'm really glad we're mentioning that Daily Beast article
and Vicky Ward the journalist in particular. It is a
must read and it has more information about Acosta. But
one of the key points here is to realize that
even the people who are working in good faith to
unravel this byzantine conspiracy don't always agree with each other.

(31:01):
We're going to have a lot of push back and
forth as we're as we're exploring this. Okay, let's let's
say it. Plane. There are a lot of allegations of
Epstein being tied to intelligence operations. Some of those can
be dismissed or at least categorized as mirror speculation. At

(31:25):
the time of this recording, there is no officially accepted,
conclusive evidence that Epstein was a spy, by which we
mean no government has come out and said, yeah, we
work with the guy. You know. It's the army you have,
not the army you want. Nobody has said that, not Masad,
not the CIA, not the FBI, zero zilch, nada. But

(31:49):
there are a lot of theories that go beyond mirror speculation,
and it focuses on his connections to people that we
know are active in intel eligence agencies or in some
cases were active until their own mysterious deaths. The water
gets so deep, so murky, so quickly.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
And let's point out right here, many of the things
we're about to discuss from here forward came to light
after that piece was written by a skeptic, just to
put the nail that in as hard as we can.
Not until months later, and all the way until March
twenty twenty six did this stuff start to trickle in

(32:29):
and the full connections to folks that we're going to
be discussing.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
Yeah, some people who believe that Epstein was an asset
or was participating spying activities They're not just on a subreddit.
They are directly working for the United States government. We've
got to go to this one document that was originally
created on October sixteenth, twenty twenty, not revealed until years later.

(32:56):
It was released by the Department of Justice as part
of the Epstein Files Act, and it alleged that the
convicted sex offender, the pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, was quote trained
as a spy under former Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak.
And it's also again, it's just like what we're talking

(33:18):
about with Vicky Ward. The FBI report cites an anonymous source,
a confidential human source or CHS. So this is human
and it's someone who was close to Alan Dershowitz, Harvard
law professor also worked as Epstein's lawyer at times. You

(33:39):
can check this out on the DOJ's website. I recommend
you to do so before it gets pulled from the internet.
But it's it's interesting to me, Matt, because confidential sources
or you know, people close to the events and so on,
often they are sharing prebaked talking points or they are

(33:59):
shared Mary Hearsay, right, they're spill and tee, they're doing gossip.
This is not the case here. It doesn't appear to
be because this person whomever they are, reportedly shared phone
calls between Dershowitz and Epstein. Because this person he or
she was taking notes during those phone calls, and details

(34:21):
of the conversations that Dershowitz would have with Epstein were
then given to Masad per this source, and then Massad
would come back and get debriefed with Dershowitz when Epstein
was not on the call or in the conversation. So
this makes Dershowitz one of our first connections. It's so
weird because this is an air gap, okay, and it's

(34:45):
something that happens. It's not uncommon communication chain in intelligence operations.
You have someone functioning as the middle point between point
A and point Z, and this means that you had
distance the beginning and endpoints of each side of the
conversation from direct interaction. Epstein also is very close with Dershowitz,

(35:08):
who was represented by him legally, and we know that
Dershowitz himself once reportedly told a US attorney that quote
Epstein belonged to both US and Allied intelligence services by
his kind of kauugh cough. Israel kauf cough in this case.
But then people came to Dershowitz later, reporters, investigators came

(35:30):
to him later and they said, well, why did you
say that to a US attorney? Is Jeffrey Epstein a spy?
Is he an intelligence asset? And dude? Apparently Dershowitz literally
laughed off the idea and said, quote, no intelligence agency
would really trust Epstein. That's not something he would keep

(35:51):
from his lawyers. What right? So he said, I would know,
and also technically he's not good enough, like you wouldn't
pass muster because it's kind of a content.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
That's crazy to me, the idea that you would you
wouldn't tell your attorneys. Oh, by the way, I am
working indirectly for the CIA. It's fine, don't worry about it.
Just if they come asking questions, you know that it's real.
It's very strange to me. And there's a piece I

(36:25):
want to reference here just to help us understand this
from The Times, written by gabrielle Wigener on February eighth,
twenty twenty six, and it has a really good example
from a senior UK national security official who also is
a part of the Royal Military. Academy Sandhurst. That gives

(36:48):
this context of what does it mean to be an officer,
an agent, or you know, some other part of an
intelligence agency. So let's go this really quickly. There's a
quote from Lynette Nuschbacher and usb ach e Er. Every
intelligence agency has people who work for the agency who

(37:10):
are on salary, who have pension paid for by the agency.
We call them officers. Then there are people whose officers
influence them to do work for their agency, sometimes paid,
sometimes manipulated, sometimes blackmailed. They're called agents. So we've got
officers who were paid, agents who are often manipulated, sometimes paid.

(37:31):
And then there are people who are assets. They are
just useful. Is it possible that Epstein was an asset
to the Masad? Yes? Do I think he was an
agent of any intelligence agency? I think it was unlikely.
Was he an officer? No, so officer, no agent, Probably

(37:54):
not asset? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yeah, think of it. Think of it this way, because
I remember I've remember reading that quote two with great interest.
Think of it this way. Your officer, full time salarymann level, right,
Your agent think of that more like a temp or
contract worker. Your asset is more like a gig worker
or a day laborer. And they also this is something

(38:20):
people forget about assets. Sometimes they don't know they're an asset.
Sometimes they have no idea who's really orchestrating whatever they're experiencing,
or they don't really know who they're giving information to. Right,
So an asset can get very close to a target
as well. It's not always the case.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
But that's what makes me think in this case, no,
I mean, Alec I don't know more than Lynette Musbaker.
But with the activities that we see Epstein taking part in,
and you know, with all these mostly unredacted files released now,
it seems like he was more than an asset in
that way. It feels like he was doing putting the

(39:04):
work in and then creating assets.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
Yeah, it's tough to it's tough to rationalize some of
his known decisions through any other lens. I mean, we
know Epstein again not conclusively proven to be a spy.
He definitely at high level political connections that a lot
of people themselves would kill for or at least envy,

(39:28):
both in Israel and in the United States. We know
he hop knopped with the Clintons, with Trump, Prince Andrew
et cetera ad nauseum. But the former Prime Minister of Israel,
Ehud Barak, also regularly stayed over at Epstein's house at
his New York apartment. This guy and his wife would
literally live there, and the two guys seemed oddly casual

(39:50):
in their emails about the spying question. There's one I
pulled from Justice dot gov where Epstein literally email the
former Prime Minister of Israel and says, make it clear
that I don't work for massad smiling face, susient smiley
face at the end. And that feels like the kind honestly, folks,

(40:15):
That feels like the kind of joke I might make
with Matt in our group chat. But these guys, their
friendship was not restricted to social activities or soieris of parties.
Documents prove that Epstein advised Edhud Barack on a tech
firm called Pallanteer that you might have heard of. They
also prove that Epstein asked Barack directly to give former

(40:39):
British Minister Lord Peter Mandelson a job at an energy company,
and then they also had a kind of funny back
and forth about paying former Prime Minister Tony Blair a
ton of consulting fees.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
Weird, weird, that was four exactly right. There's another little
lip here from twenty seventeen where Epstein in an email
asked Barak if someone had asked him to help obtain
former Masad agents to do dirty investigations, which is weird.
So yeah, Epstein asking the former prime Minister of Israel

(41:16):
if someone had had asked him, the former prime minister,
to help obtain former Massad agents to do dirty investigations.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
And then also we know that Epstein this has proven
if you go to places like Novara Media. There's a
journalist named Harriet Williamson who wrote an awesome article about
FBI claims that Epstein was in Israeli spy. They find
that Epstein helped broker security cooperation agreements between Israel and

(41:46):
Mongolia and then between Israel and Cote Devre or Ivory Coast.
And these emails that we're using as a source here
are directly from Barak that we also got to shout
out Dropsite News, who broke a lot of these stories.
We also know that in addition to hosting who, Barack

(42:10):
and Barrock's wife at his apartment in New York Epstein
hosted a military intelligence official who was also an aide
to Barack. His name is Yoni Koran, and if you
look at the email evidence in the files, Epstein also
paid for Koran's cancer treatment in twenty twelve, and it
was donating to tons of charities as well, some of

(42:33):
which were pretty controversial, like like far right Israeli settlements
that the United Nations considers illegal per earlier treaties.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Well, and officially those contributions are you know, five thousand
dollars twenty five thousand dollars, not something you know, incredible
where you're like, wow, this guy was funding this entire thing,
but enough to where you kind of see where, Oh
that's where, that's where you're going to contribute.

Speaker 3 (43:02):
Okay, interesting, Yeah, yeah, establishing a pattern. But I think
you're right. It's it's usually not going to be what
people at his level would consider a massive amount of money,
more like a polite donation for him. It's like buying
girl Scout cookies from your friend's kid.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
Well, that's one of the amazing things you could do.
When you have the social circle that Epstein has, you
can get folks to donate to a lot of things.
You can get folks to come on and do extravagant
gallas and you know what do they call those nights
where everybody's going to be a fundraiser and you've got
a huge amount of wealthy people paying one thousand dollars,

(43:39):
five thousand dollars just to get a seat at the
table to celebrate together. But all that money's going towards
a charitable foundation or something. We've seen a lot of those,
especially ones happening in New York City. And he's looking
at you all, you one hundred millionaires and billionaires out there,
at all of these different things that are directly connected

(44:00):
to Epstein. We see you.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
Thanks for five thousand dollars plate attendance, and thanks for
tuning into the show. How is the food there? Tell us?
I hope it was like a sandwich. Amazing five thousand
bucks for a fundraiser and you've got to sit around
with a baloney sandwich or just like a ham on rye.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
I would write, I don't think so. I think I
think it's better.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
It's probably more like duck comfie.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
If we're being hey, yeah, shout out to Bajamar, thank
you for the duck.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
Yeah, thank you for the duck.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Oh and one last notable contribution here and just feels
like something I want to dive into more. I don't
have enough information now at this point, but we are
going to mention it so you can check it out
on your own if you wish. There's a little company
called Carbine c R b YNE. It was formerly known
as report E R E p O r t Y

(44:55):
Homeland Security. It was founded in twenty fifteen and there
was a pretty huge donation contribution let's say that was
arranged by and then heavily contributed to buy Epstein. It's
an Israeli startup company. It if you check out what
they say about themselves, it says it's a company that

(45:18):
develops advanced emergency communication technologies focuses on providing real time video,
location and data transmission to enhance emergency response systems worldwide.
It's an interesting connection. Doesn't mean anything necessarily, but if
you were somebody who was maybe into keeping track of

(45:39):
people like when certain heads of the CIA travel I
don't know in the Caribbean, maybe if you had a
private company like this that is headquartered in New York
City but is an Israeli company, you could maybe keep
tabs on folks you were interested in, that's all.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
Yeah, And we'll dive more into that folks, I promise. So,
I mean this is another thing, just going back to
the air gap. If these folks saw a day in
court about this relationship, that air gap strategy would have
functioned as a legal shield or kind of an insurance policy.
Had Epstein ever been put to the question on this,

(46:22):
Because by speaking to Dershowitz then having the information relayed
to Massad, both Epstein and Massad had a valuable off ramp.
Epstein could say, Hey, I'm just talking to my buddy Alan,
he's my lawyer. I had no idea intel was a vault.
Massad could say that play the same game and say, look, yeah,
we were calling the legendary lawyer and law professor Alan

(46:45):
Dershowitz about something totally unrelated. So what's the big deal
you guys?

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Well, and you can make it if it was just
an official, right, some officer of Massad talking to Dershowitz,
and it was it just happened to be a of
Dershowitz on Epstein's site. Just as you're saying there's absolutely
no connection, there no nothing official.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
And then it's hearsay to quote Montel Jordan. This is
how we do it, right, That's that's exactly it. Because
these kinds of communication change, they depend on those non
official connections. Boy, that was a dated reference. But keep it.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
My head keeps saying it over and over.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
Now it's gonna be stuck in your head. Man. Gosh,
what a banger. We'll be right back. Speaking of strange connections.
We got to talk about Galaine's family. Oh boy, we
have returned, all right. Gallaine Maxwell again the only person

(47:48):
who actually got convicted through this bizarre Byzantine trafficking scheme.
Her father is infamous. He is the late British tycoon
politician Robert Maxwell, notoriously addict to his children. By the way,
he has been widely suspected of being involved with Massad.

(48:10):
At the very least, he has contributed millions and millions
of dollars to the Israeli economy, sometimes in controversial ways,
and after his death, his funeral is attended by multiple
high level members of the government, and he is buried
in Jerusalem's Amount of Olives. That is a graveyard that

(48:31):
is typically reserved for Israel's best and brightest. They're elite servants.
He didn't just get accused of working with Massad though,
folks he's been accused of working with six and six
kind of confirmed that one. He's been accused of working
with the KGB. Evidence from the United Kingdom shows that
Downing Street suspected he might be a double agent or

(48:53):
even a triple agent, with ties to even more intelligence agencies.
And he was doing doing this, by the way, when
he ran a media empire that rivaled that of Rupert Murdoch.
I think we talked like the reason we're joking about
textbooks here is because in his heyday he ran or
he founded and ran Pergamon Press. It's an academic publishing house,

(49:17):
so they do history and science textbooks across the United
States with very specific takes on certain parts of Middle
Eastern history. Then he controlled Maxwell Communication Corp. Macmillion. Again,
we said Pergamon a small army of global publications, and
a growing number of people are certain that he used

(49:40):
his vast media reach in espionage. We had again, and
this keeps happening with these guys. We have former intelligence
agents or individuals who will come forward after their career
is done and make these allegations. One of those was
Ari Ben Nash. He said, Maxwell was a longtime agent

(50:04):
for Masaud, and he was the key guy who revealed
the identity and location of Mordecai the New New, which
is a callback for a lot of our longtime listeners.
Mordechai the New New, in addition to having an awesome name,
was the guy who blew the whistle on Israel's secret
nuclear weaponry program. And he shared that information with the

(50:28):
Sunday Times and the Daily Mirror, and Robert Maxwell runs
the Daily Mirror at the time.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Isn't it mind exploding and maddening the Mordecai of a
New New blew the whistle on Israel's nuclear capabilities that
long ago in nineteen eighty six, and it is still
considered a secret or just a like not a secret.

(50:56):
It is you're not allowed to talk about it if
you're an official in any capacity. We don't talk about
about Israel's nukes. We you know, we quiver when Israel
says oh Iran is about to get a nuke, but
we just we're not allowed to talk to the ones
you've got though. That's a little weird.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
One hundred percent, man, especially with stuff like the Samson option,
which is their current nuclear strategy or doctrine. You know,
fire on us, we fire on everybody. Essentially, it's strange
because the information that comes out only comes in pre
approved leaks from a quote unnamed source close to the conversation.

(51:39):
The most damning allegations about Robert Maxwell being a spy
they linked directly to the software scandal with something we
call Promise. Shout out to Edward Snowden. We talked about
Promise in the past p R O M I S.
This was originally a case management tool for the DOJ,

(52:01):
but it was allegedly stolen and doctored with a back
door that the Israeli government could exploit, and then it
was sold to dozens of foreign intelligence agencies and militaries
and corporations. This allowed the nation of Israel to spy
on pretty much any country that used the doctored Promise software,

(52:25):
and Robert Maxwell is apparently instrumental in selling that all
over the world. Promise is a bad thing. Just to
be clear, check out our earlier episodes.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Look at our old video. Our old video really lays
it out what happened and what it kind of means,
and it's tied to a lot of other conspiracies and
potentially deaths of journalists. Yes, all kinds of stuff wrapped
up in the promise software and it goes deeper.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
Shout out to Cassilaro.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, mm hmm the octopus man. Yes, that one is
that one is creepy. Yeah, like legitimately, because it's it's
very it's rooted in reality, you know, and there's provable
stuff around it, and then there's just some maybe what
ifs on the edges, but the scary stuff's right in

(53:16):
the center and it's provable.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
Yeah, but it's so plausible too. Yeah, guys, Mad and
I spent a lot of time on this one, and
every so often we you know, of course, it's our
due diligence, it's our remit to expose conspiracy theory when
it's untrue. But Castelaro man one hundred. I believe that one.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Ben. I haven't watched it yet, but here on Netflix,
if you're watching on Netflix, there is something called American Conspiracy,
The Octopus Murders. There are four episodes and they're almost
an hour long each. I have not watched any of
it been, but like, we should do that and then
come back and do an update octopus.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
Once we're further radicalized. Yeah, because it is true. By
the way that one is true, we'll go on that hill.
So okay, we have to also mention, just like Epstein,
Robert Maxwell's death super sketchy. Officially it's a heart attack
and accidental drowning, but most people, ourselves, Angley Maxwell included,

(54:21):
think he was murdered.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
And according to Epstein, and according to Epstein, yeah, there's
an email from March fifteenth to twenty eighteen. It's an
email from Epstein to a redacted recipient. The subject line
was quote, he was passed away, not he passed away,
He was passed away. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
And in this message, Epstein claims that Maxwell had previously
threatened Israeli intelligence services, and he wrote in the email,
unless they, meaning Massad, gave him, meaning Robert Maxwell, four
hundred million pounds to is crumbling empire, he would expose

(55:03):
all he had done for them. Epstein also said, look,
Maxwell has acted as an informal operative. He has gathered
information on the US, the UK, and the Soviet Union.
So this guy is spying for everybody, and he can't
really trust him. We know he definitely did dirt for

(55:24):
various intel outfits. Sometimes he was working simultaneously with entities
that were hostile to each other, like six and the KGB.
Both of these folks can't really agree on anything, but
they all agree they can't really trust Robbie Dobbs, which
is a nickname I made up for him.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
I just want that's really a greet man. Let's talk
about what is conclusive evidence that would prove somebody is
an asset or an agent of Let's say the CIA.
Let's just say the CIA, Sure, what is that's going
What's a document that is provable that shows, oh, you

(56:05):
are definitely a part of this organization. Is it some
kind of pay stub or a seat, you know, from
a shell corporation to your LLC you set up or whatever.
Is that conclusive proof? Maybe, but that's probably not gonna
happen that way. If you are a specialty asset or
an agent that is supposed to be deep undercover, that's

(56:27):
never going to exist. I'm trying to imagine a producible
piece of paper that would make a court or an
attorney or anyone the public me say, oh wow, that
that definitely proves it without being undershadow of a doubt
this person was CIA.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Yeah, that's a you know a lot of people in
the game aren't really scared of themselves dying. They're not
really scared of physical danger. What they're scared of is paperwork,
because paperwork is what can ultimately incriminate you. So for conclusive,
in arguable evidence, we have to look past the statements

(57:07):
of individuals formerly in espionage or governance. We have to
look for statements officially from an administration, officially from an agency,
and they will usually not make those statements, which we've
got to get to in a second. I mean, that's why,
that's why it's so tough to prove this kind of

(57:28):
thing in court, because so much of these operations it's
kind of like, you know how we're all watching Artemis
two recently, folks. And one thing that always stuns me
about space expiration at this point in history is the
majority of the rocket, the majority of the shuttle, or
the device getting astronauts into space. The astronauts don't explore

(57:52):
that they're in this tiny, little tippy top right, that
little capsule is the entire point. So that that's a
way to think about these kinds of intelligence conspiracies. The
majority of the apparatus is going to be built, in
this case, not to transport astronauts, but to disguise the

(58:13):
existence of those folks in the capsule and disguise the
reality of what they're doing. So most of these conspiracies,
and most of the time built constructing them, focuses on
how to maintain lausible deniability. That's why we have the
air gaps, right, That's why, you know, that's why Dylan

(58:35):
gets paid in ben bucks through an outside third party
crypto corporation that only exist for a week at a time.
WHOA well, because now it looks like different you know.
Now it looks like different companies are intersecting. So I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
I didn't know that your currency funded our super producer.
And now I'm concerned.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Oh yes, be concerned. Also, one of the best puns
we ever had for an episode.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
I think you should be concerned. That's a sequel, I.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
Think, yeah, there we go. There is no to your point, Matt, there,
that's that's part of why there's no officially confirmed, hard
evidence that Epstein was definitely working as a spy. But
after a certain point, fellow conspiracy realist, these connections add up.
They seem inescapable. It's to the point now where we're

(59:30):
past the threshold. If this guy knows all these people
so intimately, which he does, and if we have documented conversations,
which we do, of him talking about geopolitics and him
talking about spoopy doop stuff, it would logically be harder
for us to assume Epstein was not some sort of asset,

(59:53):
or at the very least, it'd be harder for us
to assume he was not occasionally working with agencies when
it's suited him. If so, then he probably was functioning
as what we call an access agent or an access asset.
But I think agent would be the correct term here.
That means that his value is not in necessarily having

(01:00:16):
the inside information about, say, Pakistan's nuclear weapons program, but
he has the ability to give folks access to people
that are ordinarily going to be much more difficult to touch, right,
and he talks about it a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
There's something I saw in here specifically about the Polish government,
and I wonder if we could talk about that, because
I think, I don't know. I'm feeling more and more
like there might be something else we're not seeing here.
If we're talking about us government's connection and quite frankly
kind of nice relationship with Russia government, and then something

(01:00:56):
to do with Epstein in the center there and has
do with Poland and an investigation into Russia.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
Yeah yeah, so before you get to where his money
comes from, let's add that other Russian connection. Okay, oh yeah,
we got to, if you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Don't mind, because this is really puzzling to me, and
I haven't really considered I haven't considered Russian intelligence as
even a possibility because it seems so obvious. If the guys,
you know, in the United States all the time, like
in New York where the power players exist, in Los Angeles,
high out in this tiny island, sometimes going over there

(01:01:34):
to what was the ranch that we just Zoro ranch,
and France always in Paris, just flying around the globe
doing stuff. I just imagine he would be a part
probably of US intelligence, if he was a part of
intelligence or Masad, because Israel does like to keep their
finger on the pulse of every other government, especially ones
that they have a lot of arms deals with. That

(01:01:56):
makes sense. The Russian connection, though, that feels weird to me.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
Yeah, yeah, it is weird. The UK apparently had some
pretty strong evidence about Epstein also being an arms dealer,
which kind of leads us to the Russian connection. So
if you look at what's been released on the Epstein
file so far, they contain more than one thousand references

(01:02:23):
to Vladimir Putin from earlier. They also have over nine
thousand references to Moscow specifically, and this leads people to
suggest that Epstein thought he was being granted audiences with
the President of Russia. In twenty ten, he emailed like

(01:02:44):
he talked about us all the time. In twenty ten,
he emailed an associate to say that he could help
them get a Russian visa. He literally wrote, I have
a friend of Putin's, should I ask him? And then
in other missives and correspondent sies, he talked about meeting
up with Putin. He said he got really close. But

(01:03:05):
there was you know, there was an aircraft disaster when
Image seventeen was downed over Ukraine in twenty fourteen, and
he said, oh, it's a bad idea now after the
plane crash. But then you got folks like this should
be reported more. You got folks like Sergey Belyakov. This
guy back in the day was the deputy minister of

(01:03:26):
Economic Development in Russia. He graduated from the FSB Academy,
which by the way, is a spook school, and then
he went to the Saint Petersburg Economic Forum Foundation, which
runs a couple of different things. And when he went
to this institution, it was already an open secret that

(01:03:47):
that place is associated with escorts and trafficking across Russia.
And that's where Epstein starts talking with Belyukov directly. There's
a twenty fifteen email where he's as, look, buddy, my buddy, belly,
there's a Russian girl from Moscow who's trying to blackmail
a group of powerful businessmen in New York. This is

(01:04:09):
bad business for everyone involved. And he said, you know,
I might need to take care of it, which is
not what you would just say to a buddy. And
it's definitely not something you would say if you are
not aware of tradecraft.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
What do we think we mean? Take care of it?
Pay the person off.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
Sure, that's one option. There are others. Hey, we'll just
leave that one there.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
I would just say. Some of the allegations in these
released Epstein files would lead one to believe that there
was more violence involved that is not in the emails,
not in the books, but maybe referred to lightly in ways.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
Like this, Yeah, obliefly take care of right or retire right,
as our brit friends used to say. So there's another
question here, given what we know about Epstein's personality and
the statement and some people who associated with him, was
this more showmanship in grifting. Was he just like trying
to flex and say look at me, I'm a big

(01:05:07):
dog too, or was he genuinely in contact with one
of the greatest spymasters in the world, one of Earth's
most dangerous living humans, the one and only Daddy V.
We know that he trafficked a lot of Russian women.
He would pitch them in emails, like he hit up

(01:05:28):
Prince Andrew and said, I've got this girl for you.
She's Russian, beautiful and trustworthy. People would tell him stuff like, hey, Jeff,
I have two Russian girls for you to meet. One
is twenty one, another is twenty four. From Epstein's own emails,
we know that he had a lot of contacts in Russia.
We just don't know to what, if any degree, the

(01:05:50):
Russian government itself was involved, but he was definitely there,
and he was definitely talking about the kind of stuff
that you talk about if you're running a hunting trap.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
So creepy to see a message to Deepak Chopra from Epstein,
Epstein asking Deepak to find him a blonde Israeli girl,
and and and just like the way the way it's
spoken about is so informal and as though it's gonna
be oh, yeah, not a problem, let's do that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:19):
Just so casual. Yeah, it's just it's.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
Just uh, just awful. And if we're still here, we're
in Russia. Now, well, well let's take it back home
to the US. Because there's this guy that was the
head of the CIA for a time who is a
part of these files and appears to have quite a
bit of connection with Epstein. And then the trail kind

(01:06:42):
of goes dark for a while while he is the
CIA director. But before that time, there's a lot of
emails exchange this guy named Bill Burns or William J. Burns.
He was CIA director during the Biden administration, and a
lot of to you has been made online, people speculating

(01:07:03):
having ideas about but no real concrete information about why
did the Biden administration really not do anything with all
of this. Epstein dies during Trump's first presidency, then Biden
has an entire four year term, and then Trump comes
back in and then investigates. It's just weird how that

(01:07:25):
played out.

Speaker 3 (01:07:25):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
We're not saying it has anything to do with William Burns,
but William Burns was in contact with Epstein before he
became director of the CIA.

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
Oh yeah, yeah, it was. The corruption was wide rife,
or at least the opportunity for such. And a few
months back, speaking that CIA connection before he gets in
the money, there's a guy named Glenn Prager. Pr agr
very interesting person, a former DOJ program analyst, and he
stated bluntly that Jeffrey Epstein was a CIA informant, so

(01:07:58):
that would make him an asset who was protected from
prosecution by both US and Israeli intelligence agencies. The DOJ
strongly denies this, and they diss Prager pretty hard in
their statement. They say his attention seek and he doesn't
know what he's talking about. They call him disgusting. But

(01:08:19):
the thing is Prager is the kind of guy who
would know what he's talking about, and the situation is
complicated by the fact that Intel agencies. It's true, folks,
some of us in the crowd know this well. Intel
agencies as a rule will never ever verify an assets
identity unless they have no other option, even after decades

(01:08:43):
have passed. This is take it to the grave stuff.
So can we really expect any intelligence agency to pump
out and officially say, hey, yeah, Jeff Epstein not a
bad guy, but he did a great service for our
country or not. It's political suicide. It's operationally stupid as well.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
It's it's troubling for someone who's trying to figure out
what the truth is because of that type of denial
that the you know, you attack the person who is
making the statement it's it's gonna happen. I think, whether
it's true or not, I think that's exactly the kind
of thing that you would say, right, And so it's

(01:09:24):
hard to it's hard to analyze that after the fact
that say, well, how who's telling the truth here? It's
it's almost impossible and it and I think folks who
go into these or these groups and and and make
these connections and have these assets out there functioning, I
think there's an awareness of how murky it would be
and how difficult it would be to prove, which goes

(01:09:45):
to your point, Ben it's just deny, deny, deny, deny.
Nothing happened, no comment, can't talk about it. That's classified.
Just leave it to that and keep doing that until,
as you said, a new history book gets written. You know,
Bartia Waits and group are out and they're going to

(01:10:05):
write new history books.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Now exactly, it's by design. So if we now we've
made a case with some pretty compelling, if circumstantial evidence
of connections that don't make sense outside of the lens
of espionage and trade craft. But because we can only
get the circumstantial evidence with that, we have to go
to our second option. This is where we begin wrapping up.

(01:10:30):
The big question that still haunts everybody talking about Jeffrey
Epstein is where does his money come from? How much
did he actually have? Right was the providence? The public
understanding of his early rise to fame has been shrouded
in mystery, and we did a lot of investigating into

(01:10:50):
his career trajectory. We still have questions. So how does
like riddle us this, folks, how does a college dropout
from Brooklyn all his way from being a high school
teacher at the Dalton School to the pinnacle the tippity
top of American finance and politics and society. How did

(01:11:10):
he go for being nearly fired at bear Stearns to
managing the wealth of billionaires. Well, what's the origin of
his own fortune? I mean, officially, the answer is his
wealth was self earned and it came from managing the
finances of his wealthy clients, in particular the problematic billionaire

(01:11:33):
Leslie Wexner, who kept giving him these very strange deals.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
Remember that guy, Yeah, I remember that guy. He's the
mall guy, the guy that owns all the stores in
the mall, not all of them, just a lot of them.

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
And Victoria's secret being one, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
Yes, and bath and body works and just a lot
of stores.

Speaker 3 (01:11:54):
What we're saying here, folks, essentially is that if you
have ever been in a mall, you have given le money.
And we know that Jeffrey Epstein also benefited a lot
from dodging taxes, right, That's part of why he had
residency in the US Virgin Islands that helped him accumulate
his fortune. But if you look at the spy side

(01:12:17):
of it, you'll see a lot of people claiming that
he was doing money laundering as a proxy, right, moving
cash off the books. I find that pretty plausible, to
be quite honest. But I also want to make space
for journalists like David Einrich, Steve Etter, Jessica Silver Greenberg,
and Matthew Goldstein. Over at the New York Times, they

(01:12:38):
have a phenomenal investigation that largely leads them to dismiss
the idea of Epstein being a spy. They argue he
made his money through good old fashioned griftin They say
he was a relentless scammer. He abused expense accounts, he
made inside deals. He was very good at separating otherwise

(01:13:00):
people from their money. And they say that at every
point in his career because they like even went back
and read diaries from him and people he worked with.
They say every point in his career he kept testing
and refining exploitation or con artist tactics. He wanted to
see what he could get away with, and he just
kept pushing the envelope because he was always ready to

(01:13:22):
break or bend the rules. And it didn't matter to
him if he burned most bridges. But the issue is
regardless of the fortune, folks, the size or the providence,
this investigation doesn't do much to dispel rumors about Epstein
working with intelligence. I mean, yeah, he could have made

(01:13:42):
the money through being a con artist. He wouldn't be
the first, but that doesn't mean he wasn't also running
another grift on the side, especially if he was, as
we know, morally bankrupt. So you could be grifting rich clients, right,
and then going and working with the CIA or massade
to get insider info and compromising evidence or behavior and

(01:14:05):
then just hand them off to the intelligence agencies.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
My big question in all of this, and it's been
racking my brain for a while now. I'm not kidding, Ben,
I'm losing sleep over it. How do you convince these
politicians in the United States who represent you know, the
American people in every state you know, from Idaho to Florida.

(01:14:34):
How do you convince these representatives to go against the
things that would benefit the people that elected you? Right
when you are all about getting elected, that is what
your career is about, especially if you're in the legislative branch.
You can just continue on and being a congress person
or a senator if you do right by the people

(01:14:57):
that elected you. But somehow someone is convincing these folks
to go against what is good for the people that
got them elected over and over and over and over
again in these cycles, and it all seems to be
for some kind of higher corporate interest. And it does
make me wonder, just how do you convince all those

(01:15:19):
folks to do that if it's not through some type
of coercion outside of just getting paid. I feel like
being bribed isn't enough. I mean, maybe it is, I
just can't imagine. I can't imagine that a bribe is
the thing that gets all of these people to just
go along with whatever the plan.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
Is not always Yeah, that is true. I would respond
to that statement by going back to what you said
at the very top. There is a differentiation we need
to make. We're saying, how could a politician go against
the wishes or desires of the people that elected them.
We need to realize there are two categories of voters

(01:16:04):
or people who get you elected in the United States.
First is the public, the people who show up and vote.
The second, and far more powerful, are going to be
the corporate interest. They are going to be the institutions
and the packs that have money to burn. Those are
the real masters of politicians. Pretty much across the board.

(01:16:25):
There are a few exceptions, like Bernie Sanders probably hasn't
sold out. He's just too cantankerous and too Larry David
about it. But a lot of other people, you'd be
surprised by how cheaply they can be bought, because being
very intelligent means that you have an excellent ability to
rationalize your actions. Right. So it's not just because DuPont

(01:16:49):
gave me thirty million dollars for my campaign. That's not
why I'm reducing these regulations. I'm reducing them because DuPont
knows that I'm smart and we happen to agree on
this issue. That's how it happens, man, that's who's really voting.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
Ben I just imagined an email from jee vacation to
Bernie dot Sanders at whatever dot gov, and it's like, hey, Bernie,
why don't you come out to so the apartment. We're
having a little party to get together tonight. And Bertie
is just like, no, thank you, no, thank you, No,

(01:17:24):
not interesting?

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
Built a sky miles apply.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
I'm an American senator.

Speaker 3 (01:17:30):
No I could see a basket about sky miles.

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
Oh that's you're right, you're right.

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
So okay, look, folks, we've got a little long we
hope you. We hope you enjoyed this. As you can tell,
this story is incredibly important to Matt Dylan and yours. Truly,
there is so so much more stuff we have to cover,
but we can say that after adding up just these
connections and asking just these questions, Epstein was probably not

(01:17:57):
some kind of sith coded James Bond, But like Robert Maxwell,
he almost certainly did some stuff with Intel agencies, maybe
one off projects, maybe arms deals, money laundering. Probably working
as an informant.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
Feels quite opportunist to me. Yeah, to make those connections
and to make things happen.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
That's the thing. Yeah, it just makes too much sense
for this to not be at least harshly true. There
is definitely a cover up a foot. This is textbook
stuff they don't want you to know, and we want
to know your thoughts. So thank you for tuning in, folks,
thanks to our super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Let

(01:18:39):
us know what's on your mind. Let us know what
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(01:19:18):
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