July 15, 2026 • 52 mins
Fellow Conspiracy Realists: Ben, Matt, and Noel love pro wrestling. It occupies a distinct niche in American culture from Canada to Mexico -- and it's a huge business. However, as the guys learn in tonight's episode, this multi-billion dollar industry is also riddled with accusations of corruption, crime, and conspiracy.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
DA Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
To the show. My name is Matt, Goodness, my name's
not And in this quarter weighing in, it's six hundred
and sixty nine shadows.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
She call him Ben.
Speaker 5 (00:40):
How We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan
the Tennessee Hal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you, You
are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want
you to know. Let's get already to run gidding, gidding.
We actually can't say it. We can not say that
(01:00):
phrase on air.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I don't want to. I don't want to hold you
up too much. Ben here, but how much duff a shadow?
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Way right?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, tune in for our later pens the content of
the character of the shadow.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Yes, there it is.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
We Actually the reason I was doing that joke at
the top is we actually cannot say or do not
want to say that entire catch phrase, which should be
familiar to all wrestling fans on the air, because the
owners of that trademark phrase, the Buffer family, is known
for suing the heck out of people if they use it.
They even took on the Mouse for having a iteration
(01:38):
of We can say the phrase let's get ready to rumble,
but we can't say it in that intonation.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
And with that context, you.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Take aim at the mouse, you best not miss, and
you best have an air tight case. So it sounds
like they know what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Now, now hold on, we're talking about Michael Buffer, who
I remember from boxing, and then Bruce Buffer, that is
we know from UFCLE.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
A couple of buff Buffers if you ask me.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
And now TKO Holdings, which we'll get to. It's a
true story. The Buffer dynasty has made an estimated four
hundred million plus US dollars off trademarking and licensing the
phrase let's get ready to rumble, and of course off
of their notorious litigation cases. But if you're a fan
(02:24):
of wrestling, even if we didn't say the phrase fully
in that intonation, you know what that signals. What it
leads to, it's one of the most fascinating, strangest performance
sports in all of modern history. That's right, Fellow conspiracy
realist Tonight sort of live and kind of direct to you.
We are doing an episode all about professional wrestling and
(02:48):
the conspiracies of play inside and outside of the ring.
Quick note, quick disclaimer there will be discussions of some
pretty dark, dark, violent things here, so this episode may
not be appropriate for old listeners.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Lots of punches and kicks, potentially some slams.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Getting ropes.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Oh god, don't even get me started on folding chairs, cages, yeah, pages,
cage matches. Do they still use spiked bats from time
to time? Or barbed wire? They have to know where
they slice themselves. That's we'll get into it.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Well, you got to check out the amateur wrestling now.
Our own metropolis of Atlanta and a lot of surrounding
counties in Georgia actually have a thriving scene that's a
little bit looser with the rules than WWF and WWE,
a little.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Bit looser with the problematic behavior as well, because I
went to one at like a VFW a handful of
years ago, and the heel wrestlers were all like Mexicans
or you know, Middle Eastern codd it was. It was
not good. And I just remember there's this one kid
who clearly had a glandular disorder who was just going
kill them kill.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
It was a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
If we're talking problematic behavior, we're gonna get and plenty
of that, with some McMahon things and some other things.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah, so let's dive in.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
We'll have a word from our sponsors, and then we'll
meet you in the ring.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Here are the facts.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
We've got to separate two related concepts that are quite distinct. Okay, folks,
that's a little stage magic trick for that one. There
are two loose categories broad categories, so what we call
wrestling today. The first one, the actual Olympic level wrestling
is one of the oldest combat sports in all of
(04:38):
human civilization. It predates the written word. It's been independently
invented time and time again across cultures, primarily because you
don't need special equipment to do it, and also because
even as recreation, this type of wrestling can train people
for actual combat in the future. There are depictions of
(04:59):
it in cave paintings from France that date back fifteen
to seventeen thousand years. It's in the Iliad, It's in
the Old Testament. Remember how Jacob wrestles with either an
angel or God. It's in the Vedas, It's in like
ancient Babylon in Egypt, it's it's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I do wonder about the techniques that were available to
Jacob as he wrestled with an angel or you know,
being of other origin like that.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Can't really do any below the belt hits with an
angel because they've got nothing down there. They're like kendles.
Speaker 5 (05:31):
If it's a biblically accurate angel as well, then where
do you which wing do you grab onto, how do.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Youw do you grapple? Where were you talking about under
hook's where? And it's a very interesting thing. Maybe we
should point out here when we're talking about wrestling as
a sport versus a fighting technique, ben as we're talking
about in the sport, you're not hitting anybody. In wrestling,
it's not about attacking. It's about kind of imposing your
(06:00):
body's will on the other body by moving them outside
of some ring, by pinning them to the ground. You
it's not you're not hitting anybody or purposely hurting somebody.
It's a competition in the sporting.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
World exactly, and it's huge still. Modern modern versions of
this ancient wrestling are incredibly popular all around the world today.
In fact, a fun little random piece of info here.
I believe the literal national sport of Turkey is still
(06:36):
oil wrestling. Yeah, it's exactly what it sounds like. These
guys are essentially in uh. I don't want to call
them diapers, but they're in their tidies and that's it.
And they get looped up and then they grapple with
each other.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Nothing. I'mrotic about that.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Not.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
But we are.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
We are talking though, We're talking, not just about that.
Maybe we'll do a ridiculous history episode about that in
the future. Fellow conspiracy realists and wrestling fans, we are
talking about your favorite form of wrestling. It is inspired
by the original, but over time it went to a
wildly different and I think we would all argue wildly
entertaining directions.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
That's the key word, isn't it, Ben, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
It's technically okay, so we call it just wrestling, but
you might call it pro wrestling or professional wrestling. And
if you look at the technical definition, it is described
as athletic theater yep, sort of like craft singles or
a cheese product cheese food product.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yes, well, that's why there's that entertainment word. At the
end of the world wrestling right.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Yes, yes, exactly, it's still pro wrestling. First off, we're
coming from a place of great affection and respect here, folks.
We're not haters on this. It's still ruffle around that
idea of mock combat, which the sport of wrestling originally
has always been. But historians make a really interesting point.
(08:11):
Wrestling in its original form was considered too slow paced
to really pull crowds in the United States. Keep in mind,
this is also the country that would later go on
to invent crack cocaine and supersized French fries, so naturally
audiences in the eighteen hundred seventeen hundreds they looked at
this kind of stuff, even when Abe Lincoln was wrestling,
(08:33):
and they were like, we want more. And that's why
the wrestlers, in a bid to get their industry more
well known and more popular, they privately agreed to start
fixing their matches. And they did this not purely for
a financial basis, to be honest, these are artisans studying
(08:53):
a craft, and they realized that, hey, if we have
a kind of narrative through line, if we can agree
on some kind of outline or course of events, then
we can pull off super spectacular, entertaining moves in choreography,
the kind of stuff you would never see in a
non fixed regular matter.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
I mean, it's not for nothing that so many of
these folks have gone on to have very successful film careers, right.
I mean, it's it's acting of the highest order, and
it is a drama writ large, you know. I mean
it is essentially kind of a machismo enriched version of say,
daytime soaps.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, well, but also think about action movies and the
things that are required of an actor in a big
budget action film. It's just being able to use your
body to do cool stuff and look good while you're
doing it.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
That's me thing.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
And the promoters are a huge aspect of this early
development of professional wrestling. They're the ones who really start
becoming the brain trust, and they script these matches which
allow for a kind of a bit of improvisation, but
they always have an end goal in their narrative. The
(10:11):
victor is decided it's going to be the most charismatic wrestler,
usually the people's hero noel. You earlier used the term heel.
That's wrestling lingo for the bad guy, the opposite of
that is the face which is the hero, the one
you're supposed to cheer for. They found that American audiences
(10:32):
really love this charismatic stuff. They loved this binary good
guy bad guy mentality. If your charisma was enough. In
the early nascent mergent days of professional wrestling, you didn't
actually have to be that skilled technically. You would get
more attention, more money, more popularity by adopting a stage persona.
(10:56):
You'd have various gimmicks like the legendary Undertaker, You'd have
weird lord, strange backstories, and then you'd also start getting
these other pretend characters that didn't actually wrestle, but they
were like your fake manager. Remember those guys like the
Grand Wizard and Sergeant Slaughter and so on. Grand Wizard
(11:16):
actually Jewish.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Guy whoa Okay, and I was gonna say, but I
mentioned the thing about the local VFW Wrestling League and
some of the problematic heel characters that were, you know,
designed to be other other ring and to be like,
this is an enemy that you can kind of focus
your disdain on. And that absolutely was the case in
professional wrestling as well. I mean they were just taking
(11:37):
a cue from that. There was like wasn't there something
chic Iron the Iron Chic.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
Who later went on to open restaurants.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
So he was a bad guy, wasn't He wasn't the
Iron Chic baddie.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I would say he's kind of an anti hero definitely.
Definitely to your.
Speaker 5 (11:52):
Point about playing into racist or xenophobic attitudes in his heyday, yeah,
Iron Sheep was often kind of a heel.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, you guys remember a wrestler named Sting, Yes, way
back in the day, like childhoods and face Yeah. Uh.
He He lived next door to one of my best buddies,
and we used to go over to his property. I
guess it's he was a huge property and he had
a little pond there and we would hang out by
his pond and like wait and try and spot to
(12:23):
Sting when he would come in or out of his property.
But he was never there. I guess he was always working.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Guys. I'm sorry to take a tiny little derail moment,
but I just looked up a list of racially insensitive
professional wrestling heels, and there are so many. There was Kamala,
the Ugandan giant, a quote savage jungle stereotype, wearing face paint,
achem the African Dream. It was a white wrestler that
was repackaged with like kind of these urban quote unquote mannerisms.
(12:51):
Saba simba, a tribal African gimmick, wearing a headdress and
holding a spear. Of course, you'll probably remember Yokozuna. It
was a samoeen wrestler who is actually I believe came
from Japanese sumo tradition, but was very much packaged as.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
This exotic other.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
And my personal favorite guys, The Mexicools, a Mexican trio
debuting on riding lawnmowers, essentially mocking the idea of day laborers.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
And in this for a pop culture reference, folks, in
this we see an industry at play. One of the
best fictional examples of that in recent discourse is going
to be the way Vaught International handles and packages the
soups in the adaptation of.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
The Graphic novel A really.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Good point be a lot of wrestling analogs there for sure.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Yeah, like if you read the graphic novels, I don't
know how often this happens in the adaptation, but if
you if you read the comics, there's this entire consistent
through line of Vaught departments, counting and marketing and pr
and so on, going to this person and saying, okay, so.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Here's your background.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
All right, you're in Atlantean Prince and the person with
the superpowers is going yeah, but also Atlantis isn't real,
and they're like, we'll get to that. We're going to
figure that one out in Q three. That's what happens
a lot with real life pro wrestling. It is a
massive success. It turns out that audiences don't really care
(14:29):
about anything past being entertained, right, and you can propagandis
like you're saying Noel with these heels that sort of
echo the concerns of the American zeitgeist over time, and
then later the Mexican Canadians, ZI guys, so on and
so forth. They make so much money, huge professional empires, WWE, WWF.
(14:51):
They are fundamental parts of American culture very soon after
their creation. Right now, these are the best stats we
have right now, folks, as of last year. As of
twenty twenty five, we're recorded on Friday July tenth, twenty
twenty six, the market size of the pro wrestling industry
overall is five point three three billion, dollars. That's not
(15:15):
the number that should amaze us. The number that should
amaze us is the forecasted growth an industry that will
be twelve point nine six billion dollars by twenty thirty three.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Now, hold on too much money, Ben, Is that including
all of TKO's stuff or is that is just so
that's all these various wrestling organizations across the planet.
Speaker 5 (15:40):
Not including UFC okay, which is actual cost which is
a sport for sure.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
Yeah, and a sport and not choreograph. I think it's.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Also worth mentioning. I'm sorry, just that you can't get
numbers like that if you're only appealing to like fifty
percent of the population. Like there's this perception I think
they're wrestling fandom is exclusively or in large part like
folks that maybe live in the southern parts of the
country or resigning politically on the right. That is just
so not true. Is so universally beloved. I have some
(16:12):
incredibly smart friends, you know, who have known for a
very very long time, who are obsessed with professional wrestling unironically,
and I just wanted to point that out. Maybe that's obvious,
but it's something that didn't occur to me, and I
was maybe a little bit bubbled in my view of it,
but I had my perspective change just by knowing people
who are like really into this stuff.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Yeah, Jabelle run.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Also, while we're giving shout outs here, i'd love to
shout out our longtime friend erstwhile guest on the show,
Robert Lamb, a great, awesome author and very much on
ironically adores wrestling. Check out his awesome show that he
does with another friend of our show, Joe McCormick. It's
(16:53):
called Stuff to Blow Your Mind. It's available right now
on Netflix. It is the best scientific exploration show on
the planet.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Smart boys and very nerdy in the best way I
mean that weirdly funny.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Also, also, I'll say it, Rob, don't get mad, but
as a great compliment, you do kind of remind me
of David Bowie and the seventh good looking man.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Good looking guy.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Uh, it's the cyburns. It's always been the cyburns for
me in the like slightly longer hair. Yeah, dude, I
just want to make one last point here when we
think about the universal appeal of this type of wrestling
that we're describing and the amount of money that it
can generate worldwide. Think about people like The Rock and
(17:38):
John Cena, and think about how many human beings on
the planet would recognize those two faces no matter where
you are on the planet, and how excited people get
when those folks show up anywhere, or when they show
up in a movie, and it's the universal appeal just
cannot be downplayed.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Absolutely, And that's a great point, Matt. We know there's
so much money on the line. We also know that
in most cases, the individual wrestlers that you would recognize,
unless they're breakout superstars, they're not making as much money
as you think. Their jobs are really really tough, and
with so much financial heft this multi billion dollar industry,
(18:21):
it should not surprise you when we tell you that
this industry is the subject of numerous conspiracy theories, some
of which are wholesome, we would argue, and some of
which are much darker than others. How about we take
a break for a word from our sponsors, and then
you know, hop in the.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Ring, ding ding ding. Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
We have a word of the day for you folks, Dylan,
I don't know if we have a sound cue for this.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Let's get it out of the way.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
First, we explained the origins of quote unquote actual wrestling,
and then pro wrestling. We talked about how their match
fixes and scripted bouts larger than life personas, the stuff
organized crime loves, the stuff that a gambling public doesn't like.
The thing is, this doesn't stop when they're out of
the ring. The wrestlers were and are, or superstars as
(19:19):
they're called by Vince McMahan. They're required to remain in
character even when they are in public, no matter what
it is of no consequence if they're actually fighting, if
they're in public, if there are cameras or civilians around,
they are in character. Mankind is always mankind. The Undertaker
is always the Undertaker. This stone cold Steve Austin is
(19:43):
always stone cold. It is due to about Goldberg, though,
is always Berg in the goings. This is the practice
known as kyfabe Word of the Evening k fabe.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Kay fabe. Oh.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
Also another huge fan of wrestling, our own Jonathan Strickland
aka the quistor That's.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Right, that clocks yeah, k fabe. It's almost like it's
almost a form of method acting, right, like saying the
character you know.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
I like that, yeah, yeah, Daniel d Lewis style. It's
the etymology is so murky. You'll find people claiming it's
mangled pig Latin for b fake. You'll hear people say
it's named after a specific person K Fabian or k
space Fabe, or that it's a Latin alteration of the
(20:33):
word for beware, which is cave, just meaning keep cavy.
None of that has really been proven, but this is
so important to wrestling as a culture. It's kind of
like how carnies have their own insider language. It's kind
of like how magicians have the Code of Magic, which
says you cannot reveal your tricks to outsiders. Wrestlers have
(20:56):
to do whatever is necessary to keep the illusion all live.
If there is one mortal suit in all of this
honestly problematic sport, it's not steroids.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
It's not accidentally hurting people. It is breaking k fabe.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Right right, Yeah, those steroids are pretty important.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
They are important. You gotta get you, you gotta beave up.
There's so many analogs with like hardcore theatrical pursuits and
this kfabe and all of this stuff stage combat. Think
about that, like, I mean, there's so many aspects of
similarities between you know, folks that might do fighting in
film or on stage and the kinds of moves that
(21:38):
these wrestlers have to perfect, you know, stomping on the ground,
you do a punch and things like that.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
I love that point. Yeah, because two quick things about
k Fabe. Yes, this is the biggest conspiracy technically of
pro wrestling because it's central to the entire operation, the
entire initiative.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
But it's also harmless fun.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
It's kind of wholesome when you think about it, like
the Santa Claus conspiracy.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Look that one up.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
We're not going to ruin it for you if you're
listening in here for some reason under seven years old.
But this is like if your kid, you're watching your
favorite action figures come to life. They're clear good guys
and bad guys. There's a moral prerogative baked in you
know who to cheer for. And second, this I think
a point that we all really want to emphasize.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Folks, Just because k.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
Fabe is in play, just because there's loose scripting, this
doesn't make the wrestlers themselves any less athletic at all.
These are professionals. They train at their craft constantly, sometimes
beyond the strictures of athletes in other disciplines.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
I mean, sure that, let's make one up.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
That backflip, choked slam, double whammy, smell the rock, hallelujah,
hear me twice. Whatever that move is, it's probably planned
in advance, they probably practice it a lot. But we
cannot make the mistake. These folks really can fight, and
at times, real fights do occur in the ring because
there are egos involved.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's kind of complex in a way because you can
look at somebody like brock Lesner, who was a huge
wrestling star and then made his way into the UFC
world and then you know, was pretty successful. The dude
is six three, two hundred and sixty five pounds, so
he's a giant guy, right. He's also extremely athletic for
(23:29):
that size, and he's he had been training to do
those kinds of moves. Man, you're talking about like the
incredibly athletic moves with a huge body, which is crazy impressive.
And the number of times you have to rehearse a
move like that when you are so big just to
get it right, that's that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
But then you put him in a ring where you
just have to fight somebody and it's all very real
and you you are hurting somebody and someone is hurting you,
and you can see. I mean, he has a pretty
good record I'm looking at I think it's five and four,
maybe five and three that he ended up going. But
when he did face off, like early on against somebody
(24:08):
like Frank Mihir, that was a a professional fighter who,
instead of training moves like that, had been training, you know,
actual combat moves his entire career. It was a different thing.
I'm not saying. I'm not saying they're not fighters. I'm
saying they're not the same thing as someone who's been
training in UFC their whole career, rather than this really
(24:29):
cool athletic performance.
Speaker 5 (24:31):
Yeah, absolutely right, And this this can change. You can
see this, by the way, in the fact that a
lot of pro wrestlers will have a longer career with
more with more bouts than UFC.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Right. Oh, that's that's that. I think that's one of.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
The easiest demarcations to me. We also know that, Yeah,
KFA number one conspiracy of wrestling. Everybody knows it. It
may change the way so people look at wrestling, but
history is proven the vast majority of audiences across demographics
to your point earlier le they don't.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Mind at all.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
They want to be entertained, they want to cheer for
their favorite wrestlers, rab some merch, get some memories. That's
pretty awesome to be nerdy about it. From a folklore perspective,
this is one of the very few things of its
sort in all of the United States. It is a
distinct cultural artifact.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Hinn percent.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I remember being younger and like learning that pro wrestling
was fake and thinking that I was sort of in
on some grand conspiracy, sort of secret, you know. But
the older you get, the more you realize, like everybody knows,
of course, And it's almost a feature, not a bug,
like because it is entertainment. It's like no one believes
when they're watching their favorite sitcom or you know, a
(25:49):
TV series, that they're watching something real and the outcome,
the stakes are in some way real. That doesn't diminish
the enjoyment of it and the following of the lore
and the characters. That's a big part of it too, guys,
is the lore and keeping track of the relationships between
the good is the goodies and the bad ease and
all of the different evolutions. Sometimes you'll have a good
guy that turns heel and stuff like that. I mean,
(26:10):
it's all about the long the long game of the drama.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
Yeah, the storytelling. Joseph Cavell would love it. And also,
let's let's exercise empathy. You know, k fabe is happening,
You're having a great time at a show. Are you
going to be that absolute piece of trash who leans
over to a kid and says, hey, the Undertaker doesn't
actually have superpowers? Like why would you be such a negative?
(26:38):
Like why would you be such a wet rag about that?
Let people have fun?
Speaker 3 (26:42):
I would hope that none of us would. But it
also reminds me of the conversation we recently had on
listener mail around our conversation.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Of worship versus belief.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And you know how sports in the US, much like money,
sort of takes on qualities of worship and religion. And
to the point of the listener that wrote in, I
think there's a lot of truth to the fact that
you can kind of take on that same reverence even
though if you know the thing that you're sort of
revering isn't quote unquote real.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
And you know, so I think we've got k Fabe
down issues. As we tease, there are a lot.
Speaker 5 (27:18):
There are many more conspiracies in the world of wrestling,
and they get much darker very quickly. We mentioned we
tease steroids a little bit. That is one of the
darker wrestling conspiracies. We have to talk about it. It
is one of the longest running disturbing shadows haunting the
(27:39):
industry performance enhancing drugs, particularly anabolic steroids. Get this, folks,
if you're not familiar with wrestling and you're wondering why
these folks were so big. Up until up until just
a few decades ago, steroid use was pretty much in practice,
(28:00):
perfectly legal in wrestling all the way up to nineteen
ninety one. That's what it was outlawed nineteen ninety one.
It was because of the Controlled the Substances Act. And
they're specifically you know, we're talking about anabolic steroids.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Don't use them.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
They've got a high, they've got proven medical efficacy for
some conditions, but they are used by people who seek
to increase the muscle size of their body, their strength,
and aspects of physical performance. They've got a lot of
severely gnarly side effects.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Check your balls. Those side effects can also include death.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
They didn't seem to Harmhole Cogan's junk too badly, at
least according to that tape that came out. Oh you
saw the tape back in the day. Oh no, I don't.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Know it, but I did hear tell as they didn't
hear tell.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I didn't hear anyone going oh wow, that was underwhelming.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
More wow, your balls are strange, shrinking guy. Two. Are
the two really close? Is that one? Okay?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Pointing out that he was one of the people that
early on was saying, yeah, I've been doing anabolic steroids
in the eighties with Vince McMahon.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Well, that's the thing too.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I mean, I was good friends with a pretty a
relatively elite athlete too many years ago. And the way
he put it was, it's just if you're not doing steroids,
you're not in the game. You know, It's like you can't.
It's not an equal playing field, per se. But it
certainly is an equal playing field that some people are
doing them and you're the only one that's not, because
you just can't compete in the same way. And I
(29:38):
think that's definitely true in terms of because so much
of the wrestling stuff is all about how buff do
you look and like containing that larger than life character.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yeah, it's it's the stone chair meets keeping up with
the Joneses, Right, it's a prisoner's the lemon in some ways.
Vince McMahon, who was chairman of the then World Wrestling Federal,
in response to the Controlled Substances Act and the outcry
about the rampant abuse of steroids and wrestling, he went
(30:11):
forward and he made this strident public commitment to a
drug free environment and pro wrestling. He said, we're introducing
a rigorous, voluntary, independent drug testing policy. And the company says,
this is going to tackle the steroid abuse. We know
it's gone too far. We want all of our superstars
(30:35):
safe face and heel alike. We want our audience to
know that they're not watching people die up there. This
seemed appropriate, This seemed ethical, at least until two years
later in nineteen ninety three, when Vince McMahon himself and
a bunch of other people, including Hulk Colgan, are indicted
on federal charges related not just to steroid use, but
(30:58):
to steroid distribute.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
You should so pretty much.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
From the moment of that nineteen ninety one backlash and
that makeman's statement from that moment, during the whole thing,
they were internally pressuring people to use steroids and helping
them acquire those steroids.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
There was one wrestler who alleged Vince McMahon told him
backstage after the show, hey man, you need to hit
the gas because he just wasn't big enough, you know, like,
he didn't he didn't look like those the other bodies
that are on the stage.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Right, the Universe action figure, right.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, the crazy ones with all the veins and all
that crap. He just didn't look like that. And again
that's testimony that he alleged, right, But there's so much
weirdness in that because you're trying to get people to
speak against the organization or testify against the organization that
has enriched you and your family, which is kind of
(31:57):
weird because they changed a rule about this drug or
about this substance.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Right.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
Yeah, And we do have to mention in the interest
of objectivity and fairness, folks, that McMahon was ultimately acquitted
on all charges, as we'll see this happens to him
pretty often. But the trial did reveal a ton of
wrestlers for taking these drug tests. We're failing these drug
tests because they were definitely on steroids. They were getting
(32:24):
put back in the rings. So the industry won the
court case, but they lost the case of public opinion.
They lost a lot of trust that would be incredibly
difficult to regain, and so from like ninety two to
nineteen ninety six there were increasing arrest and controversies. At
the end of the steroid era or whatever we want
(32:46):
to call it, WWF started putting in publicly stricter policies.
They did more drug testing. They wanted to regain the
public's trust and you know, the public's money. They also
had they had a reckoning, They had a crossroads moment
where they said, Wow, steroid use is super deep in
(33:09):
our culture. It is riddled with it, like you were saying,
keeping up with the Joneses. So many people had heard
issues liver damage or modal imbalances, not to mention the
mood swings, surges of premature death.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Probably worth mentioning too, that anabolic steroids weren't scheduled as
a controlled substance until the Steroid Control Act of nineteen ninety,
which scheduled them under Schedule three of the Controlled Substances Act,
and that went to effect in February of nineteen ninety one,
and then it's since been expanded because of like you know,
designer versions and stuff they are. They did remain legal
(33:45):
under prescription for what we were describing ben as valid
medical uses. However, non medical quote unquote use in possession
and distribution remains illegal. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:57):
Again, like we're saying, the Controlled Substances Act of nineteen
ninety one changed the game and it definitely saved some wrestlers' lives.
We tease something else too that we have to get to.
This is why we add a disclaimer at the top. Folks,
We're going to get into some very disturbing allegations of
(34:20):
something not related to steroids. It is related to trafficking
and sexual abuse. So we're going to pause from our
sponsors and then we'll dive in.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
We have returned, folks.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Sadly, allegations of sexual harassment, toxic work culture, misconduct, and
even assault are not new to pro wrestling. In January
of twenty twenty four, we're going to jump around in
time a little bit a scandal rock to the industry.
A former WWE employee named Janelle Grant alleged that none
(34:59):
other the Big Dog himself Vince McMahon had sexually trafficked her,
had sexually assaulted her himself at the company's headquarters in Connecticut,
and this was far from the first accusation of this
sort we know the two years prior to twenty twenty four,
WWE's board of directors launched an internal investigation in which
(35:24):
we believe they discovered that Vince McMahon had used company
money to make twelve million dollars worth of hush payments
to no less than four women, two of whom accused
him of sexual misconduct or assault. We don't know the
full results of their investigation because the board of directors
(35:46):
announced that they had concluded what they were looking into
and never disclosed the full results.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Sounds early familiar with some behaviors linked to our current
sitting president, and we of course know that he and
Vince McMahon were buddies and they're currently Vince McMahon's wife
is the head of the department in education.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Are you talking about the guy that once purchased the
WWE and a giant event stunt thing from like two
thousand and nine, That guy that came out and said,
oh no, I'm buying the WWE, and then it turned
out he didn't correct.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, that's the guy Donald Trump with WWE.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Okay, okay, we're also talking about McMahon's case, a guy
who was accused by an employee at a tanning salon
in Boca Ratat in Florida of a harassing and groping her.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
That's two thousand and six.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
They came forward, and that's not the only tanning slum
person who came forward.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
That's very interesting one. You can find on newspapers dot Com,
a resource we highly recommend you use. You will have
to pay for it pretty quickly in your journey with
the site, but you can find actual images of a
newspaper clips and there is one you can find here
from Boca Raton in this place Tanzabar, where I guess
(37:06):
Vince McMahon used to frequent and a description of what
allegedly happened, and also a statement by his daughter, who
was the co CEO of WWE for a while now.
I'm not exactly sure where she stands in the company
at this moment, but just statements by the family going eh,
there's nothing to see here.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
Yeah, and that is I've linked to hear in our notes.
That is from the Palm Beach Post Wednesday, February first,
two thousand and six. And it's exactly as you're describing there, Matt.
We know it gets worse. You go back to nineteen
ninety two. You see a former WWF referee named Rita
Chatterton who said that McMahon assaulted her all the way
(37:48):
back in nineteen eighty six. It led to an out
of court settlement. We don't know the terms of that settlement.
We do know that Chatterton originally saw it something like
eleven point seventy five million dollars in damages in her lawsuit.
Not just restricted to female identifying employees of the wrestling organizations,
(38:13):
a wrestler named Kevin Patrick Washles excuse my pronunciation Waccholz,
better known by his stage name Nails. He filed a
lawsuit similar to what you were talking about, Matt, wherein
he said McMahon didn't just tell him to take steroids,
but he also sexually assaulted him.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
He's the guy who said he was compelled to give
testimony and made that statement about being told he needs
to get on the gas It's a weird tale where
I'm trying to imagine being his position, where you've got
federal people coming to you and saying, no, you have
to testify. He doesn't want to testify, but he also
doesn't like his former employer that much. He seems to
(38:57):
have a problem with McMahon because McMahon fired him little
while after that alleged conversation, and that calls into question
his testimony, Right, does he have bad blood with the
person that he's now talking crap about? Who knows? It
all becomes very murky at least the stuff I'm talking
about is in what was It? In wrestlingink dot com.
(39:20):
They have a very interesting article titled the nineteen ninety
three steroid Scandal that rattled WWE that was written back
in January of twenty four. That's where I'm getting my info.
I don't know if it's fully correct.
Speaker 5 (39:33):
Yeah, well, I mean it is definitely. We use Wrestling
Ink for a source for a lot of our research here.
We also know that you can go to the New
York Times and see their July twelfth, nineteen ninety four
article about Nails the wrestler so and testifying he was
told to use steroids, as you said, Matt, due to
(39:55):
pressure from the court. And then there's a separate tanning
business in California. A spallworker there files a lawsuit alleging
McMahon sexually assaulted her in twenty eleven. These are not
even all of the allegations on the record, but they
are damning litany, even if only some of those are true.
(40:17):
And it seems like wrestling officials agree that some of
them are what we're seeing as a pattern of behavior
over time, over decades, not a one off incident. So
it's best for us to understand the Janelle Grant case
as almost like a proverbial straw that broke the monstrous
camels back. This is what leads Vince McMahon to resign,
(40:40):
sort of caveat asterisk fine print. He does, okay, he
does resign from WWE, but he's still the largest single shareholder.
Like you said, it's a family business, so his daughter
is attaining increasing importance in the c suite. January wherey
of twenty twenty three, I think it is he returns
(41:03):
from retirement as the executive chairman of WWE, right before
it merges with UFC to create the group TKO Group Holdings,
and then once that merger is complete, once everybody's made
their vigoroush makeman resides from TKO the next year in
(41:24):
twenty twenty four. I don't know, guys, the room where
it happens.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Their stock price was crazy, like everything was going gangbusters
there to make that sale.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
It was. It was a huge deal.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
It's all out the money, make the place to get
the excitement, to get investors excited, and then kick it
off and bring the guy back.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Wait, I said, pumping dump. I mean, I mean it's
it's his manipulation. It's all you know, smoking mirrors, it's.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
All busy dust.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
I feel like the stock market, we should admit that
the stock market in general is just manipulation at this
point to a degree.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
That's very true actually, when we consider things like corrections
that occur when basically things are overvalued for way too
long and the people that are in the know are
the ones that are always set up to benefit from
those things and everybody else.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
What's been a.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
It's been a weird journey to be a UFC fan
from a while back, and just to see how that
organization has changed and how Dana White has always kind
of been there at the center. But there's always there's
a group of people that own the organizations, right, There's ZUFA,
and there's all these other organizations that kind of factor
into what the UFC has become. And then seeing those
(42:39):
folks kind of come together with the WWE folks and
form this new TKO thing and then for them to
go merge into boxing. They have ZUFA Boxing now and
they have guys they have Remember there was that slap
slap championship thing that we talked about. Another thing they
have is called PBR, which we all know is a
(43:01):
can and a delicious light beer.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Tell me wear this blue ribbon award took place, don't
whatever I still enjoy is this? Is this a competition
where you smash cans into your face?
Speaker 4 (43:17):
Is? No?
Speaker 2 (43:18):
No, no, It's a bull riding kind of championship organization.
But it's a huge deal in that world. And this
is this is the same company that owns it. It's
just fascinating to see how much reach one company, one
giant conglomerate, what everything they can gobble up and then
end up having this global reach of a thing that
(43:40):
we already knew had global.
Speaker 5 (43:42):
Reach and if the financial conspiracies are shenanigans, and the
sexual assault shenanigans, and oh, the steroid shenanigans weren't weren't
enough to persuade you that wrestling is riddled with conspiracy
and corruption, we have to take a yet another dark
and let you know that. It turns out a significant
(44:04):
amount of individual wrestlers have at one point or another
been charged with murder.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Well, Ben, I think it's not for nothing that there's
the roid rage of it all. You know, we mentioned
earlier this idea of behavioral issues associated with long term
use of anabolic steroids. These are the kinds of things
that I could imagine could drive people to a level
of unchecked aggression that might cause a domestic situation that
(44:32):
ends horrifically.
Speaker 5 (44:33):
Yeah, I used to hear it being called getting testy,
like testosterone getting testy when you're two. Write it up
in earlier evenings. But you're absolutely right, Nol. We know
there are cases like just three quick ones. Honestly, Billy
Jack Haynes was seventy years old when he was arrested
in February twenty twenty four, two years ago, at the
(44:56):
end of an unrelated hospital stay. And he was accused
of in connection of his wife's murder. Real name William
Albert Haynes, Junior. He had been taken to the hospital
after he had a two hours standoff with authorities in Portland, Oregon.
The entire neighborhood he was in was told to shelter
(45:18):
in place. When police finally got to his home, they
found his eighty five year old wife was dead in
an apparent shooting. He was charged Haynes with second degree
murder when he was as soon as he was released
from the hospital. Interestingly enough, he's also one of the
guys who spearheaded that massive class action lawsuit against WWE
(45:41):
for traumatic brain injury. That case was also dismissed later.
A lot of these things are dismissed, like Vince McMahon
has never been convicted, which is darkly fascinating.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
There's a string of early death so like health related
issues with a lot of former wrestlers. There was a
list on the Bleacher Report that they put out with
folks like Kerry Van Eric, Brian Pillman, Lance Cade. A
bunch of these folks. Some of them took their own lives,
(46:18):
but a lot of them, like Eddie Guerrero, passed. They
pass away because their heart gives out on them. And
you imagine, like, is that directly related to steroid use?
Is that directly related to strain that you get in
training for the ring and in the ring. Is it
completely unrelated? Is it even a scandal at all? Or
is it just part of the game. I mean, the
(46:40):
taking your own life is a different thing, obviously, but
the heart failure, I do wonder how much that actually
could be factored into that steroid use.
Speaker 4 (46:51):
Agreed.
Speaker 5 (46:51):
I mean, we know that there are so many, so
many cases of people dying that that simply cannot be
attributed to some other factors.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
There is a pattern of play, we go to it.
Speaker 5 (47:07):
I appreciate that point about suicide as well, which should
be bracketed and going back to the pattern of homicide
to your point no roid rage, as we were saying,
behavioral issues, which is a damning understatement.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
We know.
Speaker 5 (47:28):
One of the most famous cases of alleged murder occurred
when Jimmy Snooka was charged in the nineteen eighty three
death of his girlfriend, sent to county jail, posted bail
to the tune of one hundred grand. The case of
his girlfriend Argentino her case had previously been declared of
(47:50):
Cold's case. It was reopened after an investigation in twenty fourteen,
which led to Snooka being arrested in twenty fifteen charged
with third degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. He was declared
get this guy's unfit to stand trial. The charges against
him were ultimately dismissed, and the prosecutors felt like they
(48:12):
had him. Those are two examples. Jose Gonzalez d T Porter.
Those are other examples. There's one that's a bit of
a plot twist and it's in on a technicality if
we're okay with it. Wana Barraza Sempario was a best
described as a would be wrestler or self professed wrestler,
(48:33):
who was sentenced to seven hundred and fifty nine years
in prison after being convicted of murdering sixteen elderly women
in Mexico City. This makes her commonly acknowledged as Mexico's
first serial killer. There's a lot more darkness to the
wrestling industry than people might realize from the jump.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Did we talk about Crispin Waugh. Do you guys remember
that guy?
Speaker 4 (48:55):
Yeah, the Crispin Waugh incidant. Yeah, yeah, I don't think
we did.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
But I don't know the name either of this episode
largely under my radar. Frankly, I only know like the
the big big names, but surprised that I haven't heard
about these these folks. What happened with Chris bin Long.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
I think there's a documentary about that one that you
can watch. Chrispin Waugh. I think it was one of
those like family, your family, kill your family and if
things and then yourself.
Speaker 4 (49:25):
Two thousand and seven. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
It was really bad. It was really really bad.
Speaker 5 (49:30):
He asphyxiated his spouse and then also asphyxiated his son
and then took his own life. Jesus, and it goes
darker and darker. Folks, the further you get, there may
be a second episode in this topic and the future
for us. Please write to us, let us know what
we should cover. This is just a brief overview of
(49:53):
some of wrestling's greatest conspiracies and scandals, and again, we
cannot emphasize this enough. The vast majority of wrestling, from
the champions to the staff on the ground, to the
crew and the fans, it's just awesome. These are people
trying to have fun, but we can never forget. In
the same vein, we can never forget. A culture built
(50:15):
on kfabe is inherently chock full of, for better or worse,
the stuff they don't want you to know. Thank you
so much for tuning in. Please join us for some
upcoming episodes in the future. In the meantime, why not
join us on the air. You can find us on
the line, so you can call us on a phone.
You can always send us an email.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
You sure can find us online by reaching out of
the Hand The Conspiracy Stuff or Conspiracy Stuff Show, depending
on which social media platform you prefer.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Quick Plug. The documentary I was thinking about is called
The Dark Side of the Ring. It's produced by Vice Canada.
There are seven seasons, and in one of those, I
think it's season two, you can learn all about Chris
Blin ben Wab. But there's a whole bunch, like full
episodes on some of the things we talked about today,
So definitely check that out if you have time. If
you want to give us a call, our number is
(51:04):
one eight three three std WYTK. When you call in,
give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if
we can use your name and message on one of
our listener mail episodes that show up in the audio feed.
If you've got stuff you want to write to us,
send us an email. We are the.
Speaker 5 (51:20):
Entities that read each piece of correspondence we receive. Be
well aware, I'm afraid sometimes the void writes back. You
can ask us for a random fact. We'll give you what.
You can give us a random fact of your own choosing,
will send one in return. You can always write to
us for specific sources on an episode that we covered
(51:41):
in the past, and we would love to hear from you,
so we'll see you out here in the dark conspiracy
at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
DA Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
To the show. My name is Matt, Goodness, my name's
not And in this quarter weighing in, it's six hundred
and sixty nine shadows.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
She call him Ben.
Speaker 5 (00:40):
How We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan
the Tennessee Hal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you, You
are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want
you to know. Let's get already to run gidding, gidding.
We actually can't say it. We can not say that
(01:00):
phrase on air.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I don't want to. I don't want to hold you
up too much. Ben here, but how much duff a shadow?
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Way right?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Well, tune in for our later pens the content of
the character of the shadow.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Yes, there it is.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
We Actually the reason I was doing that joke at
the top is we actually cannot say or do not
want to say that entire catch phrase, which should be
familiar to all wrestling fans on the air, because the
owners of that trademark phrase, the Buffer family, is known
for suing the heck out of people if they use it.
They even took on the Mouse for having a iteration
(01:38):
of We can say the phrase let's get ready to rumble,
but we can't say it in that intonation.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
And with that context, you.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Take aim at the mouse, you best not miss, and
you best have an air tight case. So it sounds
like they know what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Now, now hold on, we're talking about Michael Buffer, who
I remember from boxing, and then Bruce Buffer, that is
we know from UFCLE.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
A couple of buff Buffers if you ask me.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
And now TKO Holdings, which we'll get to. It's a
true story. The Buffer dynasty has made an estimated four
hundred million plus US dollars off trademarking and licensing the
phrase let's get ready to rumble, and of course off
of their notorious litigation cases. But if you're a fan
(02:24):
of wrestling, even if we didn't say the phrase fully
in that intonation, you know what that signals. What it
leads to, it's one of the most fascinating, strangest performance
sports in all of modern history. That's right, Fellow conspiracy
realist Tonight sort of live and kind of direct to you.
We are doing an episode all about professional wrestling and
(02:48):
the conspiracies of play inside and outside of the ring.
Quick note, quick disclaimer there will be discussions of some
pretty dark, dark, violent things here, so this episode may
not be appropriate for old listeners.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Lots of punches and kicks, potentially some slams.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Getting ropes.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Oh god, don't even get me started on folding chairs, cages, yeah, pages,
cage matches. Do they still use spiked bats from time
to time? Or barbed wire? They have to know where
they slice themselves. That's we'll get into it.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Well, you got to check out the amateur wrestling now.
Our own metropolis of Atlanta and a lot of surrounding
counties in Georgia actually have a thriving scene that's a
little bit looser with the rules than WWF and WWE,
a little.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Bit looser with the problematic behavior as well, because I
went to one at like a VFW a handful of
years ago, and the heel wrestlers were all like Mexicans
or you know, Middle Eastern codd it was. It was
not good. And I just remember there's this one kid
who clearly had a glandular disorder who was just going
kill them kill.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
It was a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
If we're talking problematic behavior, we're gonna get and plenty
of that, with some McMahon things and some other things.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah, so let's dive in.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
We'll have a word from our sponsors, and then we'll
meet you in the ring.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Here are the facts.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
We've got to separate two related concepts that are quite distinct. Okay, folks,
that's a little stage magic trick for that one. There
are two loose categories broad categories, so what we call
wrestling today. The first one, the actual Olympic level wrestling
is one of the oldest combat sports in all of
(04:38):
human civilization. It predates the written word. It's been independently
invented time and time again across cultures, primarily because you
don't need special equipment to do it, and also because
even as recreation, this type of wrestling can train people
for actual combat in the future. There are depictions of
(04:59):
it in cave paintings from France that date back fifteen
to seventeen thousand years. It's in the Iliad, It's in
the Old Testament. Remember how Jacob wrestles with either an
angel or God. It's in the Vedas, It's in like
ancient Babylon in Egypt, it's it's everywhere.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I do wonder about the techniques that were available to
Jacob as he wrestled with an angel or you know,
being of other origin like that.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Can't really do any below the belt hits with an
angel because they've got nothing down there. They're like kendles.
Speaker 5 (05:31):
If it's a biblically accurate angel as well, then where
do you which wing do you grab onto, how do.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Youw do you grapple? Where were you talking about under
hook's where? And it's a very interesting thing. Maybe we
should point out here when we're talking about wrestling as
a sport versus a fighting technique, ben as we're talking
about in the sport, you're not hitting anybody. In wrestling,
it's not about attacking. It's about kind of imposing your
(06:00):
body's will on the other body by moving them outside
of some ring, by pinning them to the ground. You
it's not you're not hitting anybody or purposely hurting somebody.
It's a competition in the sporting.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
World exactly, and it's huge still. Modern modern versions of
this ancient wrestling are incredibly popular all around the world today.
In fact, a fun little random piece of info here.
I believe the literal national sport of Turkey is still
(06:36):
oil wrestling. Yeah, it's exactly what it sounds like. These
guys are essentially in uh. I don't want to call
them diapers, but they're in their tidies and that's it.
And they get looped up and then they grapple with
each other.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Nothing. I'mrotic about that.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Not.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
But we are.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
We are talking though, We're talking, not just about that.
Maybe we'll do a ridiculous history episode about that in
the future. Fellow conspiracy realists and wrestling fans, we are
talking about your favorite form of wrestling. It is inspired
by the original, but over time it went to a
wildly different and I think we would all argue wildly
entertaining directions.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
That's the key word, isn't it, Ben, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
It's technically okay, so we call it just wrestling, but
you might call it pro wrestling or professional wrestling. And
if you look at the technical definition, it is described
as athletic theater yep, sort of like craft singles or
a cheese product cheese food product.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yes, well, that's why there's that entertainment word. At the
end of the world wrestling right.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Yes, yes, exactly, it's still pro wrestling. First off, we're
coming from a place of great affection and respect here, folks.
We're not haters on this. It's still ruffle around that
idea of mock combat, which the sport of wrestling originally
has always been. But historians make a really interesting point.
(08:11):
Wrestling in its original form was considered too slow paced
to really pull crowds in the United States. Keep in mind,
this is also the country that would later go on
to invent crack cocaine and supersized French fries, so naturally
audiences in the eighteen hundred seventeen hundreds they looked at
this kind of stuff, even when Abe Lincoln was wrestling,
(08:33):
and they were like, we want more. And that's why
the wrestlers, in a bid to get their industry more
well known and more popular, they privately agreed to start
fixing their matches. And they did this not purely for
a financial basis, to be honest, these are artisans studying
(08:53):
a craft, and they realized that, hey, if we have
a kind of narrative through line, if we can agree
on some kind of outline or course of events, then
we can pull off super spectacular, entertaining moves in choreography,
the kind of stuff you would never see in a
non fixed regular matter.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
I mean, it's not for nothing that so many of
these folks have gone on to have very successful film careers, right.
I mean, it's it's acting of the highest order, and
it is a drama writ large, you know. I mean
it is essentially kind of a machismo enriched version of say,
daytime soaps.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, well, but also think about action movies and the
things that are required of an actor in a big
budget action film. It's just being able to use your
body to do cool stuff and look good while you're
doing it.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
That's me thing.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
And the promoters are a huge aspect of this early
development of professional wrestling. They're the ones who really start
becoming the brain trust, and they script these matches which
allow for a kind of a bit of improvisation, but
they always have an end goal in their narrative. The
(10:11):
victor is decided it's going to be the most charismatic wrestler,
usually the people's hero noel. You earlier used the term heel.
That's wrestling lingo for the bad guy, the opposite of
that is the face which is the hero, the one
you're supposed to cheer for. They found that American audiences
(10:32):
really love this charismatic stuff. They loved this binary good
guy bad guy mentality. If your charisma was enough. In
the early nascent mergent days of professional wrestling, you didn't
actually have to be that skilled technically. You would get
more attention, more money, more popularity by adopting a stage persona.
(10:56):
You'd have various gimmicks like the legendary Undertaker, You'd have
weird lord, strange backstories, and then you'd also start getting
these other pretend characters that didn't actually wrestle, but they
were like your fake manager. Remember those guys like the
Grand Wizard and Sergeant Slaughter and so on. Grand Wizard
(11:16):
actually Jewish.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Guy whoa Okay, and I was gonna say, but I
mentioned the thing about the local VFW Wrestling League and
some of the problematic heel characters that were, you know,
designed to be other other ring and to be like,
this is an enemy that you can kind of focus
your disdain on. And that absolutely was the case in
professional wrestling as well. I mean they were just taking
(11:37):
a cue from that. There was like wasn't there something
chic Iron the Iron Chic.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
Who later went on to open restaurants.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
So he was a bad guy, wasn't He wasn't the
Iron Chic baddie.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I would say he's kind of an anti hero definitely.
Definitely to your.
Speaker 5 (11:52):
Point about playing into racist or xenophobic attitudes in his heyday, yeah,
Iron Sheep was often kind of a heel.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, you guys remember a wrestler named Sting, Yes, way
back in the day, like childhoods and face Yeah. Uh.
He He lived next door to one of my best buddies,
and we used to go over to his property. I
guess it's he was a huge property and he had
a little pond there and we would hang out by
his pond and like wait and try and spot to
(12:23):
Sting when he would come in or out of his property.
But he was never there. I guess he was always working.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Guys. I'm sorry to take a tiny little derail moment,
but I just looked up a list of racially insensitive
professional wrestling heels, and there are so many. There was Kamala,
the Ugandan giant, a quote savage jungle stereotype, wearing face paint,
achem the African Dream. It was a white wrestler that
was repackaged with like kind of these urban quote unquote mannerisms.
(12:51):
Saba simba, a tribal African gimmick, wearing a headdress and
holding a spear. Of course, you'll probably remember Yokozuna. It
was a samoeen wrestler who is actually I believe came
from Japanese sumo tradition, but was very much packaged as.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
This exotic other.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
And my personal favorite guys, The Mexicools, a Mexican trio
debuting on riding lawnmowers, essentially mocking the idea of day laborers.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
And in this for a pop culture reference, folks, in
this we see an industry at play. One of the
best fictional examples of that in recent discourse is going
to be the way Vaught International handles and packages the
soups in the adaptation of.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
The Graphic novel A really.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Good point be a lot of wrestling analogs there for sure.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Yeah, like if you read the graphic novels, I don't
know how often this happens in the adaptation, but if
you if you read the comics, there's this entire consistent
through line of Vaught departments, counting and marketing and pr
and so on, going to this person and saying, okay, so.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Here's your background.
Speaker 5 (14:07):
All right, you're in Atlantean Prince and the person with
the superpowers is going yeah, but also Atlantis isn't real,
and they're like, we'll get to that. We're going to
figure that one out in Q three. That's what happens
a lot with real life pro wrestling. It is a
massive success. It turns out that audiences don't really care
(14:29):
about anything past being entertained, right, and you can propagandis
like you're saying Noel with these heels that sort of
echo the concerns of the American zeitgeist over time, and
then later the Mexican Canadians, ZI guys, so on and
so forth. They make so much money, huge professional empires, WWE, WWF.
(14:51):
They are fundamental parts of American culture very soon after
their creation. Right now, these are the best stats we
have right now, folks, as of last year. As of
twenty twenty five, we're recorded on Friday July tenth, twenty
twenty six, the market size of the pro wrestling industry
overall is five point three three billion, dollars. That's not
(15:15):
the number that should amaze us. The number that should
amaze us is the forecasted growth an industry that will
be twelve point nine six billion dollars by twenty thirty three.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Now, hold on too much money, Ben, Is that including
all of TKO's stuff or is that is just so
that's all these various wrestling organizations across the planet.
Speaker 5 (15:40):
Not including UFC okay, which is actual cost which is
a sport for sure.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
Yeah, and a sport and not choreograph. I think it's.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Also worth mentioning. I'm sorry, just that you can't get
numbers like that if you're only appealing to like fifty
percent of the population. Like there's this perception I think
they're wrestling fandom is exclusively or in large part like
folks that maybe live in the southern parts of the
country or resigning politically on the right. That is just
so not true. Is so universally beloved. I have some
(16:12):
incredibly smart friends, you know, who have known for a
very very long time, who are obsessed with professional wrestling unironically,
and I just wanted to point that out. Maybe that's obvious,
but it's something that didn't occur to me, and I
was maybe a little bit bubbled in my view of it,
but I had my perspective change just by knowing people
who are like really into this stuff.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Yeah, Jabelle run.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Also, while we're giving shout outs here, i'd love to
shout out our longtime friend erstwhile guest on the show,
Robert Lamb, a great, awesome author and very much on
ironically adores wrestling. Check out his awesome show that he
does with another friend of our show, Joe McCormick. It's
(16:53):
called Stuff to Blow Your Mind. It's available right now
on Netflix. It is the best scientific exploration show on
the planet.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Smart boys and very nerdy in the best way I
mean that weirdly funny.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
Also, also, I'll say it, Rob, don't get mad, but
as a great compliment, you do kind of remind me
of David Bowie and the seventh good looking man.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Good looking guy.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Uh, it's the cyburns. It's always been the cyburns for
me in the like slightly longer hair. Yeah, dude, I
just want to make one last point here when we
think about the universal appeal of this type of wrestling
that we're describing and the amount of money that it
can generate worldwide. Think about people like The Rock and
(17:38):
John Cena, and think about how many human beings on
the planet would recognize those two faces no matter where
you are on the planet, and how excited people get
when those folks show up anywhere, or when they show
up in a movie, and it's the universal appeal just
cannot be downplayed.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Absolutely, And that's a great point, Matt. We know there's
so much money on the line. We also know that
in most cases, the individual wrestlers that you would recognize,
unless they're breakout superstars, they're not making as much money
as you think. Their jobs are really really tough, and
with so much financial heft this multi billion dollar industry,
(18:21):
it should not surprise you when we tell you that
this industry is the subject of numerous conspiracy theories, some
of which are wholesome, we would argue, and some of
which are much darker than others. How about we take
a break for a word from our sponsors, and then
you know, hop in the.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
Ring, ding ding ding. Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
We have a word of the day for you folks, Dylan,
I don't know if we have a sound cue for this.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Let's get it out of the way.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
First, we explained the origins of quote unquote actual wrestling,
and then pro wrestling. We talked about how their match
fixes and scripted bouts larger than life personas, the stuff
organized crime loves, the stuff that a gambling public doesn't like.
The thing is, this doesn't stop when they're out of
the ring. The wrestlers were and are, or superstars as
(19:19):
they're called by Vince McMahan. They're required to remain in
character even when they are in public, no matter what
it is of no consequence if they're actually fighting, if
they're in public, if there are cameras or civilians around,
they are in character. Mankind is always mankind. The Undertaker
is always the Undertaker. This stone cold Steve Austin is
(19:43):
always stone cold. It is due to about Goldberg, though,
is always Berg in the goings. This is the practice
known as kyfabe Word of the Evening k fabe.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Kay fabe. Oh.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
Also another huge fan of wrestling, our own Jonathan Strickland
aka the quistor That's.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Right, that clocks yeah, k fabe. It's almost like it's
almost a form of method acting, right, like saying the
character you know.
Speaker 5 (20:11):
I like that, yeah, yeah, Daniel d Lewis style. It's
the etymology is so murky. You'll find people claiming it's
mangled pig Latin for b fake. You'll hear people say
it's named after a specific person K Fabian or k
space Fabe, or that it's a Latin alteration of the
(20:33):
word for beware, which is cave, just meaning keep cavy.
None of that has really been proven, but this is
so important to wrestling as a culture. It's kind of
like how carnies have their own insider language. It's kind
of like how magicians have the Code of Magic, which
says you cannot reveal your tricks to outsiders. Wrestlers have
(20:56):
to do whatever is necessary to keep the illusion all live.
If there is one mortal suit in all of this
honestly problematic sport, it's not steroids.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
It's not accidentally hurting people. It is breaking k fabe.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Right right, Yeah, those steroids are pretty important.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
They are important. You gotta get you, you gotta beave up.
There's so many analogs with like hardcore theatrical pursuits and
this kfabe and all of this stuff stage combat. Think
about that, like, I mean, there's so many aspects of
similarities between you know, folks that might do fighting in
film or on stage and the kinds of moves that
(21:38):
these wrestlers have to perfect, you know, stomping on the ground,
you do a punch and things like that.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
I love that point. Yeah, because two quick things about
k Fabe. Yes, this is the biggest conspiracy technically of
pro wrestling because it's central to the entire operation, the
entire initiative.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
But it's also harmless fun.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
It's kind of wholesome when you think about it, like
the Santa Claus conspiracy.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Look that one up.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
We're not going to ruin it for you if you're
listening in here for some reason under seven years old.
But this is like if your kid, you're watching your
favorite action figures come to life. They're clear good guys
and bad guys. There's a moral prerogative baked in you
know who to cheer for. And second, this I think
a point that we all really want to emphasize.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Folks, Just because k.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
Fabe is in play, just because there's loose scripting, this
doesn't make the wrestlers themselves any less athletic at all.
These are professionals. They train at their craft constantly, sometimes
beyond the strictures of athletes in other disciplines.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
I mean, sure that, let's make one up.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
That backflip, choked slam, double whammy, smell the rock, hallelujah,
hear me twice. Whatever that move is, it's probably planned
in advance, they probably practice it a lot. But we
cannot make the mistake. These folks really can fight, and
at times, real fights do occur in the ring because
there are egos involved.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
It's kind of complex in a way because you can
look at somebody like brock Lesner, who was a huge
wrestling star and then made his way into the UFC
world and then you know, was pretty successful. The dude
is six three, two hundred and sixty five pounds, so
he's a giant guy, right. He's also extremely athletic for
(23:29):
that size, and he's he had been training to do
those kinds of moves. Man, you're talking about like the
incredibly athletic moves with a huge body, which is crazy impressive.
And the number of times you have to rehearse a
move like that when you are so big just to
get it right, that's that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
But then you put him in a ring where you
just have to fight somebody and it's all very real
and you you are hurting somebody and someone is hurting you,
and you can see. I mean, he has a pretty
good record I'm looking at I think it's five and four,
maybe five and three that he ended up going. But
when he did face off, like early on against somebody
(24:08):
like Frank Mihir, that was a a professional fighter who,
instead of training moves like that, had been training, you know,
actual combat moves his entire career. It was a different thing.
I'm not saying. I'm not saying they're not fighters. I'm
saying they're not the same thing as someone who's been
training in UFC their whole career, rather than this really
(24:29):
cool athletic performance.
Speaker 5 (24:31):
Yeah, absolutely right, And this this can change. You can
see this, by the way, in the fact that a
lot of pro wrestlers will have a longer career with
more with more bouts than UFC.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Right. Oh, that's that's that. I think that's one of.
Speaker 5 (24:49):
The easiest demarcations to me. We also know that, Yeah,
KFA number one conspiracy of wrestling. Everybody knows it. It
may change the way so people look at wrestling, but
history is proven the vast majority of audiences across demographics
to your point earlier le they don't.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Mind at all.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
They want to be entertained, they want to cheer for
their favorite wrestlers, rab some merch, get some memories. That's
pretty awesome to be nerdy about it. From a folklore perspective,
this is one of the very few things of its
sort in all of the United States. It is a
distinct cultural artifact.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
Hinn percent.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
I remember being younger and like learning that pro wrestling
was fake and thinking that I was sort of in
on some grand conspiracy, sort of secret, you know. But
the older you get, the more you realize, like everybody knows,
of course, And it's almost a feature, not a bug,
like because it is entertainment. It's like no one believes
when they're watching their favorite sitcom or you know, a
(25:49):
TV series, that they're watching something real and the outcome,
the stakes are in some way real. That doesn't diminish
the enjoyment of it and the following of the lore
and the characters. That's a big part of it too, guys,
is the lore and keeping track of the relationships between
the good is the goodies and the bad ease and
all of the different evolutions. Sometimes you'll have a good
guy that turns heel and stuff like that. I mean,
(26:10):
it's all about the long the long game of the drama.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
Yeah, the storytelling. Joseph Cavell would love it. And also,
let's let's exercise empathy. You know, k fabe is happening,
You're having a great time at a show. Are you
going to be that absolute piece of trash who leans
over to a kid and says, hey, the Undertaker doesn't
actually have superpowers? Like why would you be such a negative?
(26:38):
Like why would you be such a wet rag about that?
Let people have fun?
Speaker 3 (26:42):
I would hope that none of us would. But it
also reminds me of the conversation we recently had on
listener mail around our conversation.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Of worship versus belief.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And you know how sports in the US, much like money,
sort of takes on qualities of worship and religion. And
to the point of the listener that wrote in, I
think there's a lot of truth to the fact that
you can kind of take on that same reverence even
though if you know the thing that you're sort of
revering isn't quote unquote real.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
And you know, so I think we've got k Fabe
down issues. As we tease, there are a lot.
Speaker 5 (27:18):
There are many more conspiracies in the world of wrestling,
and they get much darker very quickly. We mentioned we
tease steroids a little bit. That is one of the
darker wrestling conspiracies. We have to talk about it. It
is one of the longest running disturbing shadows haunting the
(27:39):
industry performance enhancing drugs, particularly anabolic steroids. Get this, folks,
if you're not familiar with wrestling and you're wondering why
these folks were so big. Up until up until just
a few decades ago, steroid use was pretty much in practice,
(28:00):
perfectly legal in wrestling all the way up to nineteen
ninety one. That's what it was outlawed nineteen ninety one.
It was because of the Controlled the Substances Act. And
they're specifically you know, we're talking about anabolic steroids.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Don't use them.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
They've got a high, they've got proven medical efficacy for
some conditions, but they are used by people who seek
to increase the muscle size of their body, their strength,
and aspects of physical performance. They've got a lot of
severely gnarly side effects.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Check your balls. Those side effects can also include death.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
They didn't seem to Harmhole Cogan's junk too badly, at
least according to that tape that came out. Oh you
saw the tape back in the day. Oh no, I don't.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Know it, but I did hear tell as they didn't
hear tell.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I didn't hear anyone going oh wow, that was underwhelming.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
More wow, your balls are strange, shrinking guy. Two. Are
the two really close? Is that one? Okay?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Pointing out that he was one of the people that
early on was saying, yeah, I've been doing anabolic steroids
in the eighties with Vince McMahon.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Well, that's the thing too.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
I mean, I was good friends with a pretty a
relatively elite athlete too many years ago. And the way
he put it was, it's just if you're not doing steroids,
you're not in the game. You know, It's like you can't.
It's not an equal playing field, per se. But it
certainly is an equal playing field that some people are
doing them and you're the only one that's not, because
you just can't compete in the same way. And I
(29:38):
think that's definitely true in terms of because so much
of the wrestling stuff is all about how buff do
you look and like containing that larger than life character.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yeah, it's it's the stone chair meets keeping up with
the Joneses, Right, it's a prisoner's the lemon in some ways.
Vince McMahon, who was chairman of the then World Wrestling Federal,
in response to the Controlled Substances Act and the outcry
about the rampant abuse of steroids and wrestling, he went
(30:11):
forward and he made this strident public commitment to a
drug free environment and pro wrestling. He said, we're introducing
a rigorous, voluntary, independent drug testing policy. And the company says,
this is going to tackle the steroid abuse. We know
it's gone too far. We want all of our superstars
(30:35):
safe face and heel alike. We want our audience to
know that they're not watching people die up there. This
seemed appropriate, This seemed ethical, at least until two years
later in nineteen ninety three, when Vince McMahon himself and
a bunch of other people, including Hulk Colgan, are indicted
on federal charges related not just to steroid use, but
(30:58):
to steroid distribute.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
You should so pretty much.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
From the moment of that nineteen ninety one backlash and
that makeman's statement from that moment, during the whole thing,
they were internally pressuring people to use steroids and helping
them acquire those steroids.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
There was one wrestler who alleged Vince McMahon told him
backstage after the show, hey man, you need to hit
the gas because he just wasn't big enough, you know, like,
he didn't he didn't look like those the other bodies
that are on the stage.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Right, the Universe action figure, right.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, the crazy ones with all the veins and all
that crap. He just didn't look like that. And again
that's testimony that he alleged, right, But there's so much
weirdness in that because you're trying to get people to
speak against the organization or testify against the organization that
has enriched you and your family, which is kind of
(31:57):
weird because they changed a rule about this drug or
about this substance.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Right.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
Yeah, And we do have to mention in the interest
of objectivity and fairness, folks, that McMahon was ultimately acquitted
on all charges, as we'll see this happens to him
pretty often. But the trial did reveal a ton of
wrestlers for taking these drug tests. We're failing these drug
tests because they were definitely on steroids. They were getting
(32:24):
put back in the rings. So the industry won the
court case, but they lost the case of public opinion.
They lost a lot of trust that would be incredibly
difficult to regain, and so from like ninety two to
nineteen ninety six there were increasing arrest and controversies. At
the end of the steroid era or whatever we want
(32:46):
to call it, WWF started putting in publicly stricter policies.
They did more drug testing. They wanted to regain the
public's trust and you know, the public's money. They also
had they had a reckoning, They had a crossroads moment
where they said, Wow, steroid use is super deep in
(33:09):
our culture. It is riddled with it, like you were saying,
keeping up with the Joneses. So many people had heard
issues liver damage or modal imbalances, not to mention the
mood swings, surges of premature death.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Probably worth mentioning too, that anabolic steroids weren't scheduled as
a controlled substance until the Steroid Control Act of nineteen ninety,
which scheduled them under Schedule three of the Controlled Substances Act,
and that went to effect in February of nineteen ninety one,
and then it's since been expanded because of like you know,
designer versions and stuff they are. They did remain legal
(33:45):
under prescription for what we were describing ben as valid
medical uses. However, non medical quote unquote use in possession
and distribution remains illegal. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:57):
Again, like we're saying, the Controlled Substances Act of nineteen
ninety one changed the game and it definitely saved some wrestlers' lives.
We tease something else too that we have to get to.
This is why we add a disclaimer at the top. Folks,
We're going to get into some very disturbing allegations of
(34:20):
something not related to steroids. It is related to trafficking
and sexual abuse. So we're going to pause from our
sponsors and then we'll dive in.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
We have returned, folks.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Sadly, allegations of sexual harassment, toxic work culture, misconduct, and
even assault are not new to pro wrestling. In January
of twenty twenty four, we're going to jump around in
time a little bit a scandal rock to the industry.
A former WWE employee named Janelle Grant alleged that none
(34:59):
other the Big Dog himself Vince McMahon had sexually trafficked her,
had sexually assaulted her himself at the company's headquarters in Connecticut,
and this was far from the first accusation of this
sort we know the two years prior to twenty twenty four,
WWE's board of directors launched an internal investigation in which
(35:24):
we believe they discovered that Vince McMahon had used company
money to make twelve million dollars worth of hush payments
to no less than four women, two of whom accused
him of sexual misconduct or assault. We don't know the
full results of their investigation because the board of directors
(35:46):
announced that they had concluded what they were looking into
and never disclosed the full results.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Sounds early familiar with some behaviors linked to our current
sitting president, and we of course know that he and
Vince McMahon were buddies and they're currently Vince McMahon's wife
is the head of the department in education.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Are you talking about the guy that once purchased the
WWE and a giant event stunt thing from like two
thousand and nine, That guy that came out and said,
oh no, I'm buying the WWE, and then it turned
out he didn't correct.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Yeah, that's the guy Donald Trump with WWE.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Okay, okay, we're also talking about McMahon's case, a guy
who was accused by an employee at a tanning salon
in Boca Ratat in Florida of a harassing and groping her.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
That's two thousand and six.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
They came forward, and that's not the only tanning slum
person who came forward.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
That's very interesting one. You can find on newspapers dot Com,
a resource we highly recommend you use. You will have
to pay for it pretty quickly in your journey with
the site, but you can find actual images of a
newspaper clips and there is one you can find here
from Boca Raton in this place Tanzabar, where I guess
(37:06):
Vince McMahon used to frequent and a description of what
allegedly happened, and also a statement by his daughter, who
was the co CEO of WWE for a while now.
I'm not exactly sure where she stands in the company
at this moment, but just statements by the family going eh,
there's nothing to see here.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
Yeah, and that is I've linked to hear in our notes.
That is from the Palm Beach Post Wednesday, February first,
two thousand and six. And it's exactly as you're describing there, Matt.
We know it gets worse. You go back to nineteen
ninety two. You see a former WWF referee named Rita
Chatterton who said that McMahon assaulted her all the way
(37:48):
back in nineteen eighty six. It led to an out
of court settlement. We don't know the terms of that settlement.
We do know that Chatterton originally saw it something like
eleven point seventy five million dollars in damages in her lawsuit.
Not just restricted to female identifying employees of the wrestling organizations,
(38:13):
a wrestler named Kevin Patrick Washles excuse my pronunciation Waccholz,
better known by his stage name Nails. He filed a
lawsuit similar to what you were talking about, Matt, wherein
he said McMahon didn't just tell him to take steroids,
but he also sexually assaulted him.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
He's the guy who said he was compelled to give
testimony and made that statement about being told he needs
to get on the gas It's a weird tale where
I'm trying to imagine being his position, where you've got
federal people coming to you and saying, no, you have
to testify. He doesn't want to testify, but he also
doesn't like his former employer that much. He seems to
(38:57):
have a problem with McMahon because McMahon fired him little
while after that alleged conversation, and that calls into question
his testimony, Right, does he have bad blood with the
person that he's now talking crap about? Who knows? It
all becomes very murky at least the stuff I'm talking
about is in what was It? In wrestlingink dot com.
(39:20):
They have a very interesting article titled the nineteen ninety
three steroid Scandal that rattled WWE that was written back
in January of twenty four. That's where I'm getting my info.
I don't know if it's fully correct.
Speaker 5 (39:33):
Yeah, well, I mean it is definitely. We use Wrestling
Ink for a source for a lot of our research here.
We also know that you can go to the New
York Times and see their July twelfth, nineteen ninety four
article about Nails the wrestler so and testifying he was
told to use steroids, as you said, Matt, due to
(39:55):
pressure from the court. And then there's a separate tanning
business in California. A spallworker there files a lawsuit alleging
McMahon sexually assaulted her in twenty eleven. These are not
even all of the allegations on the record, but they
are damning litany, even if only some of those are true.
(40:17):
And it seems like wrestling officials agree that some of
them are what we're seeing as a pattern of behavior
over time, over decades, not a one off incident. So
it's best for us to understand the Janelle Grant case
as almost like a proverbial straw that broke the monstrous
camels back. This is what leads Vince McMahon to resign,
(40:40):
sort of caveat asterisk fine print. He does, okay, he
does resign from WWE, but he's still the largest single shareholder.
Like you said, it's a family business, so his daughter
is attaining increasing importance in the c suite. January wherey
of twenty twenty three, I think it is he returns
(41:03):
from retirement as the executive chairman of WWE, right before
it merges with UFC to create the group TKO Group Holdings,
and then once that merger is complete, once everybody's made
their vigoroush makeman resides from TKO the next year in
(41:24):
twenty twenty four. I don't know, guys, the room where
it happens.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Their stock price was crazy, like everything was going gangbusters
there to make that sale.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
It was. It was a huge deal.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
It's all out the money, make the place to get
the excitement, to get investors excited, and then kick it
off and bring the guy back.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Wait, I said, pumping dump. I mean, I mean it's
it's his manipulation. It's all you know, smoking mirrors, it's.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
All busy dust.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
I feel like the stock market, we should admit that
the stock market in general is just manipulation at this
point to a degree.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
That's very true actually, when we consider things like corrections
that occur when basically things are overvalued for way too
long and the people that are in the know are
the ones that are always set up to benefit from
those things and everybody else.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
What's been a.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
It's been a weird journey to be a UFC fan
from a while back, and just to see how that
organization has changed and how Dana White has always kind
of been there at the center. But there's always there's
a group of people that own the organizations, right, There's ZUFA,
and there's all these other organizations that kind of factor
into what the UFC has become. And then seeing those
(42:39):
folks kind of come together with the WWE folks and
form this new TKO thing and then for them to
go merge into boxing. They have ZUFA Boxing now and
they have guys they have Remember there was that slap
slap championship thing that we talked about. Another thing they
have is called PBR, which we all know is a
(43:01):
can and a delicious light beer.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Tell me wear this blue ribbon award took place, don't
whatever I still enjoy is this? Is this a competition
where you smash cans into your face?
Speaker 4 (43:17):
Is? No?
Speaker 2 (43:18):
No, no, It's a bull riding kind of championship organization.
But it's a huge deal in that world. And this
is this is the same company that owns it. It's
just fascinating to see how much reach one company, one
giant conglomerate, what everything they can gobble up and then
end up having this global reach of a thing that
(43:40):
we already knew had global.
Speaker 5 (43:42):
Reach and if the financial conspiracies are shenanigans, and the
sexual assault shenanigans, and oh, the steroid shenanigans weren't weren't
enough to persuade you that wrestling is riddled with conspiracy
and corruption, we have to take a yet another dark
and let you know that. It turns out a significant
(44:04):
amount of individual wrestlers have at one point or another
been charged with murder.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Well, Ben, I think it's not for nothing that there's
the roid rage of it all. You know, we mentioned
earlier this idea of behavioral issues associated with long term
use of anabolic steroids. These are the kinds of things
that I could imagine could drive people to a level
of unchecked aggression that might cause a domestic situation that
(44:32):
ends horrifically.
Speaker 5 (44:33):
Yeah, I used to hear it being called getting testy,
like testosterone getting testy when you're two. Write it up
in earlier evenings. But you're absolutely right, Nol. We know
there are cases like just three quick ones. Honestly, Billy
Jack Haynes was seventy years old when he was arrested
in February twenty twenty four, two years ago, at the
(44:56):
end of an unrelated hospital stay. And he was accused
of in connection of his wife's murder. Real name William
Albert Haynes, Junior. He had been taken to the hospital
after he had a two hours standoff with authorities in Portland, Oregon.
The entire neighborhood he was in was told to shelter
(45:18):
in place. When police finally got to his home, they
found his eighty five year old wife was dead in
an apparent shooting. He was charged Haynes with second degree
murder when he was as soon as he was released
from the hospital. Interestingly enough, he's also one of the
guys who spearheaded that massive class action lawsuit against WWE
(45:41):
for traumatic brain injury. That case was also dismissed later.
A lot of these things are dismissed, like Vince McMahon
has never been convicted, which is darkly fascinating.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
There's a string of early death so like health related
issues with a lot of former wrestlers. There was a
list on the Bleacher Report that they put out with
folks like Kerry Van Eric, Brian Pillman, Lance Cade. A
bunch of these folks. Some of them took their own lives,
(46:18):
but a lot of them, like Eddie Guerrero, passed. They
pass away because their heart gives out on them. And
you imagine, like, is that directly related to steroid use?
Is that directly related to strain that you get in
training for the ring and in the ring. Is it
completely unrelated? Is it even a scandal at all? Or
is it just part of the game. I mean, the
(46:40):
taking your own life is a different thing, obviously, but
the heart failure, I do wonder how much that actually
could be factored into that steroid use.
Speaker 4 (46:51):
Agreed.
Speaker 5 (46:51):
I mean, we know that there are so many, so
many cases of people dying that that simply cannot be
attributed to some other factors.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
There is a pattern of play, we go to it.
Speaker 5 (47:07):
I appreciate that point about suicide as well, which should
be bracketed and going back to the pattern of homicide
to your point no roid rage, as we were saying,
behavioral issues, which is a damning understatement.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
We know.
Speaker 5 (47:28):
One of the most famous cases of alleged murder occurred
when Jimmy Snooka was charged in the nineteen eighty three
death of his girlfriend, sent to county jail, posted bail
to the tune of one hundred grand. The case of
his girlfriend Argentino her case had previously been declared of
(47:50):
Cold's case. It was reopened after an investigation in twenty fourteen,
which led to Snooka being arrested in twenty fifteen charged
with third degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. He was declared
get this guy's unfit to stand trial. The charges against
him were ultimately dismissed, and the prosecutors felt like they
(48:12):
had him. Those are two examples. Jose Gonzalez d T Porter.
Those are other examples. There's one that's a bit of
a plot twist and it's in on a technicality if
we're okay with it. Wana Barraza Sempario was a best
described as a would be wrestler or self professed wrestler,
(48:33):
who was sentenced to seven hundred and fifty nine years
in prison after being convicted of murdering sixteen elderly women
in Mexico City. This makes her commonly acknowledged as Mexico's
first serial killer. There's a lot more darkness to the
wrestling industry than people might realize from the jump.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Did we talk about Crispin Waugh. Do you guys remember
that guy?
Speaker 4 (48:55):
Yeah, the Crispin Waugh incidant. Yeah, yeah, I don't think
we did.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
But I don't know the name either of this episode
largely under my radar. Frankly, I only know like the
the big big names, but surprised that I haven't heard
about these these folks. What happened with Chris bin Long.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
I think there's a documentary about that one that you
can watch. Chrispin Waugh. I think it was one of
those like family, your family, kill your family and if
things and then yourself.
Speaker 4 (49:25):
Two thousand and seven. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
It was really bad. It was really really bad.
Speaker 5 (49:30):
He asphyxiated his spouse and then also asphyxiated his son
and then took his own life. Jesus, and it goes
darker and darker. Folks, the further you get, there may
be a second episode in this topic and the future
for us. Please write to us, let us know what
we should cover. This is just a brief overview of
(49:53):
some of wrestling's greatest conspiracies and scandals, and again, we
cannot emphasize this enough. The vast majority of wrestling, from
the champions to the staff on the ground, to the
crew and the fans, it's just awesome. These are people
trying to have fun, but we can never forget. In
the same vein, we can never forget. A culture built
(50:15):
on kfabe is inherently chock full of, for better or worse,
the stuff they don't want you to know. Thank you
so much for tuning in. Please join us for some
upcoming episodes in the future. In the meantime, why not
join us on the air. You can find us on
the line, so you can call us on a phone.
You can always send us an email.
Speaker 3 (50:35):
You sure can find us online by reaching out of
the Hand The Conspiracy Stuff or Conspiracy Stuff Show, depending
on which social media platform you prefer.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Quick Plug. The documentary I was thinking about is called
The Dark Side of the Ring. It's produced by Vice Canada.
There are seven seasons, and in one of those, I
think it's season two, you can learn all about Chris
Blin ben Wab. But there's a whole bunch, like full
episodes on some of the things we talked about today,
So definitely check that out if you have time. If
you want to give us a call, our number is
(51:04):
one eight three three std WYTK. When you call in,
give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if
we can use your name and message on one of
our listener mail episodes that show up in the audio feed.
If you've got stuff you want to write to us,
send us an email. We are the.
Speaker 5 (51:20):
Entities that read each piece of correspondence we receive. Be
well aware, I'm afraid sometimes the void writes back. You
can ask us for a random fact. We'll give you what.
You can give us a random fact of your own choosing,
will send one in return. You can always write to
us for specific sources on an episode that we covered
(51:41):
in the past, and we would love to hear from you,
so we'll see you out here in the dark conspiracy
at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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