September 17, 2026 • 38 mins
In this special episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, Robert sits down with Mark Mandica inside the the Amphibian Foundation's brand new Venom Lab to discuss the science of reptile venom. Full video of the interview available on Netflix.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name
is Robert Lamb, and I'm coming to you on location
from the new headquarters of the Amphibian Foundation here in Decatur, Georgia.
And I'm here with the executive director, Mark Bandica, to
tell us all about it. Mark, thanks for coming back
on the show. You've been on a couple of times,
at least a couple of times before. And thanks for
(00:33):
inviting us physically into the new space.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It's my pleasure. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Before we get into the work that goes on here
and talk about some of the specimens that are here
in this location, um, let's just talk a little bit
about venom, uh, just to break it down like brass
tacks right here at the beginning. Uh, can you remind
our audience the difference between a venom and a poison
when we're talking about organisms?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Oh, sure. Um, this is an appropriate place to have
that discussion. Uh, It's a complicated answer because they're both toxins.
And in some cases, there are poisons that are also venom.
So in the herpetological field, the distinction is between the delivery.
So poisons, like a frog, they don't have a target.
(01:24):
The animal's poisonous. You shouldn't touch it or rub it
in your eyes or anything like that. Venom has to
be delivered by an apparatus called We're in the venom lab,
so we're in a classroom with fangs, and fangs are
the mode of delivery for these reptiles. So has that helped?
Because there's just a lot more detail that I could
go into.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Right. So like a poisonous creature would be one where
you would get the toxin by biting or consuming that
organism or, I don't know, perhaps touching it. But for
it to be a venom, it has to be injected
or applied, with the best example being the fangs of
a serpent. Sure.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Or a stinger.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Those types of delivery mechanisms.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
All right. Something that's like, to compare it to human technology,
like an injection needle sort of scenario. Right.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And it's more like the animal's like, I'm doing this
to you, whereas the poison is not targeted. It's just
the animal is poisonous.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Gotcha, gotcha. So getting back into the venom lab then,
what sort of work goes on here? Why do you
need to have a specialized venom lab separate from the
other specimen rooms in the facility here?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Well, a lot of extra precaution has to go to
maintaining these animals. These animals are very dangerous, if not deadly.
So that's the main reason that they're separated. But the
reason why we work with these species is it kind
of stems from an earlier time I talked with you,
which was about vilified reptiles, which when we started the
(02:57):
Amphibian Foundation, which was 10 years ago now, we just
started getting a lot of hate calls about copperheads. And
they're not even an amphibian. So I'm like, wow, people
hate these snakes so much that they're, complaining about them
to us. And so I was getting all these calls.
By the time we had 30 calls, I'd said this
(03:18):
on your show, but only two of them were actually copperheads.
The rest of these copperhead calls were just other snakes
that people were killing or just hating, thinking they were
a copperhead. And so my inclination was like, we got
to do something about this. So we started doing a
little bit of copperhead advocacy. with kids because they're not
(03:42):
scared of copperheads until their parents teach them to be.
And we got a lot of support from schools that
would let us bring copperheads because they're in Atlanta and
kids should know what they look like. And at the
very least, if we can teach kids what a copperhead
actually looks like, we're doing a great service and less
(04:02):
snakes will be killed. That's why we started. And it
has grown into what we're sitting here now, We have
a Copperhead hotline. We have this venom lab to support
venom programs where we train people to work safely with snakes.
We work in the field. We're working with amphibians, but
(04:23):
there are a lot of venomous snakes out in those habitats.
And our staff are professional, competent, and not fear-based with
how they handle these things. And like, it's the... It's
the hatred that really drew me into actually doing something.
I was like, I've never witnessed an animal so despised.
(04:44):
So we've actually leaned very heavily into elevating despised species.
That's what we talked about as well. And that has
continued to develop. And so this lab is the newest
incarnation of that. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So coming back to copperhead identifications, so in your experience
are people generally kind of bad at identifying copperheads and,
and what, like how does one identify a copperhead? Like
what are like the key signature, um, physical traits?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Um, thank you for that. And, and copperheads are brown
snake and there are other brown snakes and that's similar
enough for a lot of people, you know, um, We,
when we give copperhead workshops, we can generally attract a
lot of people who want to see a copperhead and
learn about them. We hand out Hershey's Kisses because that's
(05:37):
the only thing. There's a pattern in their sides that
looks like a Hershey's Kiss. But other than that, you
really have to just know what a copperhead looks like.
There's no rule of thumb that you can apply to
figure it out. So that's why we try to teach
people because a lot of harmless snakes are being killed
and Copperheads are notorious, but there's only been one confirmed
(06:01):
fatality from a copperhead bite, and that usually surprises people.
It's not a particularly toxic species.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Just speaking of Georgia reptiles, where does it rank in
its toxicity there?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Let me put it this way. If I had to
be bit by anything in this room, I'd rather be
bit by a copperhead. Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Okay. Now, you mentioned handling of venomous snakes and reptiles.
And I know that you're engaged in the training and
certification of people to deal with these. What are some
of the standards for how one handles these animals professionally?
What sort of protocols have to be in place? Is
(06:46):
there special equipment compared to equipment you would use with
other herps?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
We train people to work with regular herps using this
equipment first. And there's nothing fancy, but we, the program
that we were trained in, it's originally from the Rattlesnake Conservancy.
It's a hundred percent safe. So no one's ever been
bitten using these protocols. So we feel very confident about that.
(07:13):
It just really involves, you don't handle, actually handle these snakes.
You don't, put your parts near the bitey parts of
any of these guys. And so there is equipment. There
are mostly hooks, but there's buckets and tongs and things
like that. And so these snakes were all cared for.
None of them have ever been actually handled.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Now, the various specimens or guests here in this room,
can you tell me a little bit about what we're
looking at here? Like how many... like how many Georgia
species are here versus, you know, invasive species in Georgia
or just, you know, any that just come from very
far afield. Just kind of curious what the diversity in
(07:57):
the room is. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
The largely natives.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
So Georgia has amazing native venomous snakes. So we have
Eastern Diamondback rattlesnakes. That's the largest rattlesnake that exists here
in Georgia. I should mention that highly threatened species as well.
We have timber rattlesnakes here, another native species that did
(08:22):
not natively historically occur in Atlanta, but they've been pushed out.
And then we have a cottonmouth, another notorious species, two copperheads.
And then we have a non-native here. We have a
western diamondback. It's the same antivenin as an eastern diamondback,
so there's no risk there. Then we have some non-native
(08:46):
beaded lizards down below, and they're very charming.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Okay, like Mexican beaded lizards? Yes. Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
And we have a false water cobra, which is a
colubrid snake, not typically a venomous snake, but it's rear
fanged venomous. And so it's not necessarily very dangerous, but
we treat it as venomous.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Rear fanged, you said?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Okay. So what's going on there? I don't think I'm
familiar with the real fang layout. Allow me.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Fangs are really awesome. There are mostly three types of fangs.
There's the selenoglyph, which is a rotating fang. Most of
these animals have a rotating fang. So they sit in
the roof of the mouth and they come out in
a millisecond. And that all happens in the strike. So
(09:34):
they move fast. And that allows these snakes to eat
enormous things. There are fixed fangs snakes, protoglyphs. They're like
a cobra. They have fixed fangs on the front. And
so they envenomate that way. And they're just part of
the skull. So they poke you with those suckers.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So comparing it to vampire fiction. In some vampire movies,
the fangs are always there. Yeah, yeah. Because they kind
of like, stick out whenever they need to feed. Right,
but they never rotate, do they, when they're vampires? That's true. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
So, maybe the other one is the final one. The
epistoglyph was rear fanged. Some colubrid snakes have an extra,
like most colubrid snakes, all their teeth are identical in
shape as the size changes. And rear fangs have a
big tooth in the back that is enabled to inject
some venom through a rudimentary gland. It's not like a
(10:24):
hypodermic needle. It's like they punch a hole in you
and then their saliva, their venom gets in. And so
there are famously lethal rear fang snakes like a boomslang,
which is not in a family with other venomous snakes
like these guys. They're in the regular snake family, but
they have venom.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Wow. So is it symmetrical? Is there one rear fang
on each side?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah. And then it sounds the way you're describing, thinking
back to some episodes that Joe and I did about
the Gila monster. Is the rear fang kind of more
akin to what beaded lizards have, where it's about sort
of like chewing the venom into the target?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
No.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It's more like that than the other snakes. Okay. But
it's more like a snake. They don't have to chew
it in, though they sometimes do. And there are a
lot of snakes that are rear fanged that we're just
coming around to realizing they have some type of venom.
Like a lot of normal garter snakes, for example. Apparently
(11:29):
ringneck snakes, very common tiny species here, rear fanged. If
they were big enough to bite us, they would be
a problem. But they're not.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
So we've just been slow to realize it based on
human interactions with the species and their venom?
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah, exactly. And it's the same with lizards. When I
took herpetology, Gila monsters, beaded lizards were the only two
venomous species of lizard. But now it turns out there's
a lot more venomous lizards. Monitor lizards have, we thought
it was just really nasty saliva at first, but now
we're realizing it's actually venom as well. So as venom
(12:05):
is a lot more common, in the reptile world than
originally thought. And that's kind of cool too.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Now, I keep looking over your shoulder here. I don't
want to do too much referring to things that, uh,
that viewers, uh, watching on Netflix can't see, but there is,
there's a tank right behind you from, and, uh, somebody
keeps looking out at me. There's a snake in there
that keeps kind of peeking over. Top? Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
That's Buzz.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
That's a timber rattlesnake.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Oh, okay. Yeah. He's poking up right now.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
He's one of our younger snakes. He's very curious.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So the younger ones tend to be a little more
curious and a little more active.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
At least in here. Perhaps, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And how long have the specimens been physically in this
new room?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
The room is very new. So, I mean, we're talking weeks.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Okay. So are they still getting used to it?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I would say in the last week or two, they've
really started to settle in. And it's nice to see.
They all seem like they really like their new homes.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Now, we've talked about some of the snakes that have
Georgia roots. Now, the ones that have come from much
farther afield, like the beaded lizards, how did they wind
up here?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Oh, that's a great story, too, because when we started,
the zoological community was very supportive. Those were actually donated
by the Chicago Zoo as babies. So they've grown up here,
and they're pretty rare. I don't think they're easy to
get your hands on, but like the A lot of
our ambassador animals have been donated from zoos for that purpose.
(13:36):
We're grateful for that.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I've heard of different organizations ending up with animals because
someone gets caught in an airport with one. Do you
have any origin stories like that?
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Oh, yeah. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife will call us
with stuff that winds up here in Atlanta. Whenever it's
an amphibian, of course, but then They've reached out for
reptiles too. Sometimes the stories aren't just heartbreaking, so we
try to do whatever we can. We're pretty limited on space.
But we do have some animals here as part of confiscations. Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And you already touched on some of the species here
that are threatened or endangered in some way. The Georgia
species that are in that category, is it all habitat loss?
I mean, is climate change in the scenario? What are
some of the factors involved here?
Speaker 3 (14:30):
My mind immediately goes to the eastern diamondback. It's a
species that's worthy of consideration for listing as an endangered species.
There are areas where it is really bumming, but it's
just so hated. It becomes political to try to get
it listed because people hate it so much they don't
want to protect it. But it's been persecuted in the
(14:54):
southeast for.
I don't know, I won't say hundreds of years. We're
talking like there are rattlesnake roundups where the whole thing
is about killing as many as you possibly can. So
it's pretty bleak. When a species has a festival where
you kill them after it, that's a bad situation from
a conservation standpoint. But our snakes, we loan them to
(15:18):
DNR every year to participate in a no-kill event. rattlesnake
festival down in source south georgia which is a newer
alternative to like killing them um so so we're happy
to support that.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So what are they they just catch them and show
them off and then release it like a catch and
release sort of scenario i think.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
For the festival it's all captive snakes that are brought
from collections such as this.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Okay that makes a lot of sense yeah yeah and.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
So um when we can we accompany our snakes there
and try to participate and Because, you know, it's important
for the township or the county to have their festival, too,
because it's been a huge source of attraction and revenue.
And so we're trying to make that be successful without
harming any animals.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Excellent. I want to come back to Venom a little
bit here, because Venom, I think listeners and viewers will
find this really fascinating, really getting into what venom is.
(16:27):
I think it's easy to just sort of think of
snake venom and you just think of it as the whole.
You think of it almost as the finished product without
thinking about the fact that in many cases, these are
complex cocktails composed of different sorts of components that do
different things and attack different systems. In the body of
(16:49):
a target. Can you walk us through some of the
basics here?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah, I can walk you through the basics. Because you're right.
It's a cocktail in every species, I think, without exception.
And as the research expands, it varies not just by species,
but by population. You know, certain northern timber rattlesnake venom
(17:13):
is very different from the timber rattlesnake venom here in Georgia.
And it's related to a bunch of different factors, including
what they're going after for prey. It's very interesting. But
by and large, the broadest strokes is there are different compounds,
peptides that impact different things. Like vipers, like the majority
(17:36):
of the snakes in this room are pit vipers. They
have a heat pit. and are vipers, they're hemotoxic or
their venom attacks tissue. It just kind of destroys everything
it comes in contact with. That'll hold true for just
about every Georgia snake in the broadest of strokes, except
(17:58):
for the coral snake. We don't have any coral snakes
in this room, but they're an elapid snake. more closely
related to a cobra, that venom acts very differently. It's
delivered differently with those front fixed bangs, and then it
acts differently because it just basically attacks the central nervous system,
and so you just shut down. They're both pretty scary.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Now, you do not have any spitting cobras in here.
Those are probably too far afield, I'm thinking, and then
that would probably, you would have to have extra equipment
on hand to deal with those.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
That sounds terrifying. Yeah, I've never worked with a spitting cobra.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So at this point, we've talked about, of course, venomous snakes.
We've talked a little bit about venomous lizards. But of course,
you're the Amphibian Foundation. Do we have any truly venomous amphibians?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Oh, yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Oh, yeah. So amphibians are famous for their poison, as
they should be. And I'd just like to mention that
there are frogs that are way more lethal than any
of the animals in this room. But there are venomous
amphibians as well. And I'd like to highlight that there
are amphibians that are venomous and poisonous. So that just
(19:16):
makes it really cool.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Yeah, yeah. And so some of that work is also
pretty recent. You know, the venomous frogs have been discovered recently.
So there are obviously poisonous frogs, but there are frogs
with spines on their skulls and they bash them into
you and inject their venom. That's venom right there. But
(19:39):
my favorite example is from this Plurideales newt. It's the
Iberian rib newt. And so we've known that they've been pretty... toxic.
You would not want to eat one of those. But
they can control and avert their ribs and skewer their
poison sacs and inject you.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yes, okay. I do remember reading about these. Now, I
guess it's the fact that their ribs end up sticking
through their bodies to stab something that's trying to eat
them i guess i tend to i become distracted by
that sort of from our perspective grotesque fact i kind
of forget about the fact that they're pure like so
they're physically piercing their poison gland on the way.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Their ribs are spiked at the end and have a
joint like a knee okay and they line up with
these visible poison sacks that they just puncture And they'll
avert them when they get stressed. You can see that
this is about to happen, you know, because their, their
poison sex could start to get pretty pointy. We have
(20:45):
a group here, but they're chill. So they've never elicited
that response, but I imagine wild plurigilies newts would, would
respond like that.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
So they would, they would, they would have this response
if something was like physically trying to eat it, like
trying to like ingest it or chew it. Exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
So, For example, toads have these huge poison glands on
their shoulders. They're really noxious and toxic. And they'll aim
them at a predator. They'll see the predator and they'll say, hey,
you're going to bite this first. And pleurodialys will do
a similar thing with their spikes. Like you're about to
get a mouthful of poison spikes if you keep going
like that. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Okay, so I can imagine how that one kind of
maybe evolves from the other. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Because I think if you were comparing it to a snake,
you might be tempted to judge it as being a more,
I don't know, primitive venom delivery system since like a
cobra doesn't have to like poke any bones out of
its body.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Right. Yes, that is also pretty fascinating that the newt
in some cases is willing to puncture its own skin,
you know, because there's got to be some pain involved
with that.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
So tell us a little bit about the venomous training
and certification course that you do here. Like, what does
it consist of? And who is it for? Like, what
sorts of people, what sorts of professionals come in here
to take that?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
It's a course we offer every other month here. It's
based on the certification I mentioned earlier that's on the
Rattlesnake Conservancy's training. So they've trained us. And then we've
since built this program here, 100% safe. And so it's
built around... this wonderful collection of serpents and a world-class
(22:28):
venom team that we have here, um, that have been
trained and just run a very tight ship. Um, and
so we have people cause we're in Atlanta. We track
people from all over the country. They come in. It's
very unique opportunity to take a weekend workshop. Uh, and
by the end they are able to safely bag and
(22:49):
bucket a venomous snake without using their hands. So, um,
it's a, course that is academic for the first day
and then practical for the second day. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And so do the, do the people taking it, do
they tend to be like, are they just herp enthusiasts
or are they like professionals who are working in some
sort of an environment where they, they need to potentially
identify and or handle? a venomous creature?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I think you just outlined the majority. The professionals are
either academic or like actual agencies, DNR or U.S. Fish
and Wildlife. And then We do get enthusiasts that want
to safely work with venomous snakes or want to know
how to handle themselves in the field when they encounter,
like if you're out in the field here in Georgia,
(23:36):
it's just a matter of time before you start seeing
venomous snakes and it's better to know how to respond.
So sometimes we get photographers who are out in nature
a lot and they don't want to have a fear-based
response so you can get some confidence. And I like
to point out that the venomous snakes here some of
the most polite snakes you could ever meet. They all
(23:59):
have some type of warning system, you know, cotton mouths.
They'll show you their cotton mouth. That's them saying, I
don't want to bite you. You know what I mean?
The rattle is the same. How polite is that? Look, buddy,
I don't like how this is going. You know, you
can change it, your tune. You know, that would be
best for all of us. That's what I hear when
I hear the rattle, you know. And then even copperheads,
(24:22):
have an affinity for a dry bite. So they'll give
you a warning, you know, that first one's free, you
know what I mean? But, you know, and so I
feel like as far as wildlife is concerned, that is
extremely polite.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah. Because I guess at the end of the day,
like venom is expensive to them. Like it's, it's not
something they want to waste. Uh, if they, what have
they wasted now, then like they have to replenish the supply.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
And, and the venom, is an important part of their
digestive system. So they really don't want to bite something
they're not going to eat.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And it's because, so the venom, when it's injected, like
it's helping to break down the prey with some of
these cocktails?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Yes, from the inside. And so you'll see that these
rotating fang snakes eat particularly large prey for their size,
and they have larger fangs. Um, and so they eat
less frequently and they eat very large things. And so
(25:21):
that the fangs injected and starts to digest from the inside, uh,
it enables them to process these huge, huge prey. Some
adult vipers eat annually, you know, they can get away
with just eating once a year. It's kind of fascinating.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Now, this is, this is something that is, it's, it's
a complete no brainer. And, um, you know, but it's,
it's worth reminding everyone that of course the snake has
no limbs. it's not going to cut up its food
at all right it's not going to have a way
to like break down the food other than chemically right
so it has it has to eat everything whole right.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah exactly no no chewing and no choice about it
either so just think about how difficult it is if
you were a snake that had to eat something like
got no hands you just gotta go ahead and bite
that sucker You know, it's pretty risky when you think
about it.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Right, right. Because, yeah, I'm thinking that opens them up
to predation by any number of their natural predators, right?
Once while they're trying to consume something else.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
That is when they were absolutely at their most vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And at least here in Georgia, what are some of
the predators that are coming after these venomous snakes? What
are their enemies, aside from human beings, of course?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Oh, yeah, there are. things that'll um that'll eat venomous
snakes um yeah raptors will uh i think i think
most mammals i don't know how they would respond to
being envenomated probably probably not well i think a lot
of them have have learned to leave some of these
snakes alone you know through their warning mechanisms.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right because that's the other side of the communication we
were talking.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
About yes because the These animals want to communicate that
before any altercation. And everybody gets away easy when they
try to kill them. And so they're trying to convey
that message as quickly as possible. I don't think raptors care,
but they've got to kill that thing quick.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Now, I have a question here. We were talking about
this before we recorded, but I wanted to ask it
anyway because I think a lot of listeners and viewers
might be wondering it as well. So we're in a
venom lab. Are venomous snakes milked for anti-venom here?
Speaker 1 (27:35):
No.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
We do not put our hands on these snakes under
any circumstances. Occasionally for medical or vet checks, we'll tube them.
Are you familiar with tubing a snake?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
No. Tell me about this.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
We have a series of very rigid tubes here. And
if you coax a venomous snake into a tube and
hold it, it cannot turn around. It's physically impossible for
it to bite you when it's inside of a tube.
So we can do exams at least on the back
two thirds of a snake when it's in a tube
completely safely. Uh, so that's the only time we would
(28:12):
do that. Um, Because it's possible to do every other
degree of husbandry and maintenance without using your hands.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So, yeah. So that sort of thing is going to
happen at other places. Now, do you have to keep
any anti-venom on hand here? Or is it one of
those things where with the right protocols, you just never
reach that step?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, I'm glad you asked. Because before, earlier today, I
was like, you know, I want to get some fresh
stats done. How many people have been killed by rattlesnake
envenomation in the last 10 years? I wanted to have
some fresh numbers. Answer is zero. Zero fatalities. There's antivenin
for every species in this room at every hospital because
(28:54):
it's common antivenin that is commonly produced now. And so
I know that the anti-venom trade and milking venomous snakes
is a field of work, and there are labs that
do that kind of stuff, but not us. We're more
about trying to address public perception and having people be
(29:19):
able to be professional and competent working in the field
with venomous snakes as part of raising that public perception.
We have more competent people out there able to identify
copper I should mention, we don't get nearly as many
misidentifications on the Copperhead hotline like I did at the beginning.
And that might be anecdotal evidence. that what we're doing
(29:40):
is working. You know, I'd like to think it is.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Now, you alluded to them already, but let's come back
to Team Venom, the various folks that you depend on
here in the Venom lab. How many people are we talking?
What sort of skill sets? Tell us about this crew.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
It's a very special, very small crew. We have four
people right now, and they're amazing. I mean, this program
is on their shoulders, their professionalism. It's taking a big
risk starting a program with deadly snakes and teaching people
how to manipulate them with with tools and so uh
(30:27):
we have mayor john sammy vahab and roxanna that are
the four core people of this program making it happen
we just offered our first venomous certification last weekend at
the new location so it's exciting to use the new
building for for this purpose so we're very excited and
i feel like it's going to really expand from here.
(30:49):
I feel like our home here is a really great
place for us in a community that values wildlife, you know,
and this is all really fertile soil for us to
grow from. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And what else is on the horizon for the Amphibian Foundation, especially,
you know, concerning the vilified species and, you know, the
venomous species and these species that are wrongly considered by
many to be some sort of like enemy of humanity.
Like what other, what other efforts and programs do you
have on the horizon? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Thank you. I mean, I've noticed since we've been doing this,
that I get my up when, when people are acting
in bad ways towards wildlife, just because they don't understand
or they're afraid or, you know, these are valid feelings too,
but we just feel very deep inspiration to push back
(31:41):
on that. So we've, We've started, well, we've done eight
years of biology of the despised as part of the
Atlanta Science Festival. Started with copperheads. Wanted to celebrate them.
And like 100 people came, you know. And we've highlighted
other groups, snapping turtles. Just snakes in general, you know.
Like there are lots of groups that are targeted as despised.
(32:05):
And so we're basing an entire course on that. Just
trying to elevate things. Because... This will give us an
opportunity to expand beyond the amphibian and reptile groups. And
maybe there's lots of despised taxa. A lot of people
doing really fascinating work with them too, that we'd like
to highlight. So I'm putting out a beacon for anyone
that would like to reach out to us that's working
(32:27):
with despised taxa.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Because this goes without saying, and certainly is a whole
episode unto itself. But, you know, obviously these complex venoms
in these organisms, like, you know, we've found various uses
for these. In the field of medicine and pharmacology. So
it's like there's untapped potential there, right? So these animals
(32:49):
should be considered more our friends than our villain, especially
in that capacity.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
There are a lot of interesting compounds in the venom
and very similarly with frogs and the alkaloids in their skin.
used pharmaceutically to treat a lot of diseases like cancers
and can stop viral transmissions. There's a treasure chest in
these compounds, and we need to protect the animals for
(33:14):
that reason, if not for any of the other reasons
I gave you. Is that lizard being bad?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I was hearing something back there. Oh, it's one of
the beaded lizards.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Look at how charming they are. Yeah. If you want,
you can glove up and you can hold one of those.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Let's see. I want to come back to the hotline.
So I understand there's a web presence. If people want
to get that number, if they have a Copperhead question,
where can they go to get that number? Yes.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Sorry. I don't have the number memorized right now. It's copperhead.life.
That will take you to the hotline and we'll come, uh,
our volunteer team, trained professional volunteer team will come and
relocate a copperhead in Metro Atlanta for free. Um, though
we have been coming, uh, more adept, uh, Mayor John
has become more adept at convincing people to just leave
(34:06):
the snake where it is.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Because it's entirely possible to live alongside these animals with
no issue. It's actually pretty easy. Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah. I've heard similar cases with like, with various wildlife
rescue scenarios where like sometimes The important communication is like,
just leave it alone. You don't need to get involved
in this particular scenario. No one's ever been bit by
a snake that just came up and bit you. You
know what I mean? The worst is if you accidentally
step on a thing. Okay, maybe that's a concern. But
(34:35):
most of these bites are happening with people that are
messing with the snakes. They're trying to kill it. They're
trying to move it. So that's what we're trying to
address as well. And finally, I want to come back
to the Amphibian Foundation itself. So where online can folks
go to learn more about Amphibian Foundation? Where can they
(34:56):
follow you online? Which are your preferred social accounts? Sure.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Thank you. And I should mention that the reason for
all this is that we're trying to conserve some of
the country's most imperiled amphibian species. And we fund these
conservation programs with these programs. So the venom class helps
us save frosted flatwood salamanders and gopher frogs and striped newts.
And you can learn all about that at amphibianfoundation.org. And
(35:23):
we're on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook as well.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Okay. And if folks want to help support, like chip
in and help the Amphibian Foundation, in addition to if
they're locally based or traveling to Atlanta, partaking in any
of these programs, what else can they do?
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yeah, we have a growing network. And so there is
a lot of work to do when we're trying to
save amphibians and elevate these groups. So people can come
to the website and look for opportunities to volunteer with
AF if you want to get involved. Donations are always
appreciated and necessary. And we also have a good resource
(36:02):
for how to make your yard more amphibian friendly and
things that you can do at home for amphibians. So
there's lots of ways to get involved no matter where
you are.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Excellent. Yeah, and I know we've talked about some of
these in our past episodes where you came on. So
I would say listeners also, if you just want to
hear more with Mark, check in our backlog wherever you
get your audio podcasts. And yeah, it's like two, maybe
three times you came on the show and talked about
amphibians and snakes.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
And it's always a privilege. I really, really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Oh, we always love to have you on. Thanks for...
allow me to come in and check out the new
venom lab. Uh, I do want to just for anybody
watching on Netflix, I do want to point out, this
is a room climate control for reptiles. And then we
went ahead and added, I think five humans total, and
then some lights and stuff. So if I'm visibly sweating, uh, that's,
that's the main reason, not the, not the venomous reptiles
(36:58):
behind me. I know they are behind, uh, safely behind screens. So, Uh,
but yeah, Mark, thanks for letting us come in, check
out the new facility and chatting with me once more, uh, about, uh,
about amphibians and reptiles.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, this was great. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
All right. Thanks. All right. Uh, everyone out there, uh,
just want to remind everyone that stuff to blow your
mind is primarily a science and culture podcast with core
episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do a short form
episode on Wednesday and then on Fridays we set aside
most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film
on weird house cinema. As always, I want to thank
(37:32):
the excellent JJ Possway for producing the audio on this show.
And also, I want to thank Jordan and Brock for
handling video on this. If you are catching this episode
at Netflix, you can get the audio version wherever you
get your audio podcast. But if you want to check
out the video version of this episode, you will find
it on Netflix, along with our more recent episodes as well.
(37:53):
If you want to get in touch with us, just
shoot us an email at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple
Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Thank you.
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name
is Robert Lamb, and I'm coming to you on location
from the new headquarters of the Amphibian Foundation here in Decatur, Georgia.
And I'm here with the executive director, Mark Bandica, to
tell us all about it. Mark, thanks for coming back
on the show. You've been on a couple of times,
at least a couple of times before. And thanks for
(00:33):
inviting us physically into the new space.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It's my pleasure. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Before we get into the work that goes on here
and talk about some of the specimens that are here
in this location, um, let's just talk a little bit
about venom, uh, just to break it down like brass
tacks right here at the beginning. Uh, can you remind
our audience the difference between a venom and a poison
when we're talking about organisms?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Oh, sure. Um, this is an appropriate place to have
that discussion. Uh, It's a complicated answer because they're both toxins.
And in some cases, there are poisons that are also venom.
So in the herpetological field, the distinction is between the delivery.
So poisons, like a frog, they don't have a target.
(01:24):
The animal's poisonous. You shouldn't touch it or rub it
in your eyes or anything like that. Venom has to
be delivered by an apparatus called We're in the venom lab,
so we're in a classroom with fangs, and fangs are
the mode of delivery for these reptiles. So has that helped?
Because there's just a lot more detail that I could
go into.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Right. So like a poisonous creature would be one where
you would get the toxin by biting or consuming that
organism or, I don't know, perhaps touching it. But for
it to be a venom, it has to be injected
or applied, with the best example being the fangs of
a serpent. Sure.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Or a stinger.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Those types of delivery mechanisms.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
All right. Something that's like, to compare it to human technology,
like an injection needle sort of scenario. Right.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And it's more like the animal's like, I'm doing this
to you, whereas the poison is not targeted. It's just
the animal is poisonous.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Gotcha, gotcha. So getting back into the venom lab then,
what sort of work goes on here? Why do you
need to have a specialized venom lab separate from the
other specimen rooms in the facility here?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Well, a lot of extra precaution has to go to
maintaining these animals. These animals are very dangerous, if not deadly.
So that's the main reason that they're separated. But the
reason why we work with these species is it kind
of stems from an earlier time I talked with you,
which was about vilified reptiles, which when we started the
(02:57):
Amphibian Foundation, which was 10 years ago now, we just
started getting a lot of hate calls about copperheads. And
they're not even an amphibian. So I'm like, wow, people
hate these snakes so much that they're, complaining about them
to us. And so I was getting all these calls.
By the time we had 30 calls, I'd said this
(03:18):
on your show, but only two of them were actually copperheads.
The rest of these copperhead calls were just other snakes
that people were killing or just hating, thinking they were
a copperhead. And so my inclination was like, we got
to do something about this. So we started doing a
little bit of copperhead advocacy. with kids because they're not
(03:42):
scared of copperheads until their parents teach them to be.
And we got a lot of support from schools that
would let us bring copperheads because they're in Atlanta and
kids should know what they look like. And at the
very least, if we can teach kids what a copperhead
actually looks like, we're doing a great service and less
(04:02):
snakes will be killed. That's why we started. And it
has grown into what we're sitting here now, We have
a Copperhead hotline. We have this venom lab to support
venom programs where we train people to work safely with snakes.
We work in the field. We're working with amphibians, but
(04:23):
there are a lot of venomous snakes out in those habitats.
And our staff are professional, competent, and not fear-based with
how they handle these things. And like, it's the... It's
the hatred that really drew me into actually doing something.
I was like, I've never witnessed an animal so despised.
(04:44):
So we've actually leaned very heavily into elevating despised species.
That's what we talked about as well. And that has
continued to develop. And so this lab is the newest
incarnation of that. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So coming back to copperhead identifications, so in your experience
are people generally kind of bad at identifying copperheads and,
and what, like how does one identify a copperhead? Like
what are like the key signature, um, physical traits?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Um, thank you for that. And, and copperheads are brown
snake and there are other brown snakes and that's similar
enough for a lot of people, you know, um, We,
when we give copperhead workshops, we can generally attract a
lot of people who want to see a copperhead and
learn about them. We hand out Hershey's Kisses because that's
(05:37):
the only thing. There's a pattern in their sides that
looks like a Hershey's Kiss. But other than that, you
really have to just know what a copperhead looks like.
There's no rule of thumb that you can apply to
figure it out. So that's why we try to teach
people because a lot of harmless snakes are being killed
and Copperheads are notorious, but there's only been one confirmed
(06:01):
fatality from a copperhead bite, and that usually surprises people.
It's not a particularly toxic species.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Just speaking of Georgia reptiles, where does it rank in
its toxicity there?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Let me put it this way. If I had to
be bit by anything in this room, I'd rather be
bit by a copperhead. Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Okay. Now, you mentioned handling of venomous snakes and reptiles.
And I know that you're engaged in the training and
certification of people to deal with these. What are some
of the standards for how one handles these animals professionally?
What sort of protocols have to be in place? Is
(06:46):
there special equipment compared to equipment you would use with
other herps?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
We train people to work with regular herps using this
equipment first. And there's nothing fancy, but we, the program
that we were trained in, it's originally from the Rattlesnake Conservancy.
It's a hundred percent safe. So no one's ever been
bitten using these protocols. So we feel very confident about that.
(07:13):
It just really involves, you don't handle, actually handle these snakes.
You don't, put your parts near the bitey parts of
any of these guys. And so there is equipment. There
are mostly hooks, but there's buckets and tongs and things
like that. And so these snakes were all cared for.
None of them have ever been actually handled.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Now, the various specimens or guests here in this room,
can you tell me a little bit about what we're
looking at here? Like how many... like how many Georgia
species are here versus, you know, invasive species in Georgia
or just, you know, any that just come from very
far afield. Just kind of curious what the diversity in
(07:57):
the room is. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
The largely natives.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
So Georgia has amazing native venomous snakes. So we have
Eastern Diamondback rattlesnakes. That's the largest rattlesnake that exists here
in Georgia. I should mention that highly threatened species as well.
We have timber rattlesnakes here, another native species that did
(08:22):
not natively historically occur in Atlanta, but they've been pushed out.
And then we have a cottonmouth, another notorious species, two copperheads.
And then we have a non-native here. We have a
western diamondback. It's the same antivenin as an eastern diamondback,
so there's no risk there. Then we have some non-native
(08:46):
beaded lizards down below, and they're very charming.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Okay, like Mexican beaded lizards? Yes. Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
And we have a false water cobra, which is a
colubrid snake, not typically a venomous snake, but it's rear
fanged venomous. And so it's not necessarily very dangerous, but
we treat it as venomous.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Rear fanged, you said?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Okay. So what's going on there? I don't think I'm
familiar with the real fang layout. Allow me.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Fangs are really awesome. There are mostly three types of fangs.
There's the selenoglyph, which is a rotating fang. Most of
these animals have a rotating fang. So they sit in
the roof of the mouth and they come out in
a millisecond. And that all happens in the strike. So
(09:34):
they move fast. And that allows these snakes to eat
enormous things. There are fixed fangs snakes, protoglyphs. They're like
a cobra. They have fixed fangs on the front. And
so they envenomate that way. And they're just part of
the skull. So they poke you with those suckers.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So comparing it to vampire fiction. In some vampire movies,
the fangs are always there. Yeah, yeah. Because they kind
of like, stick out whenever they need to feed. Right,
but they never rotate, do they, when they're vampires? That's true. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
So, maybe the other one is the final one. The
epistoglyph was rear fanged. Some colubrid snakes have an extra,
like most colubrid snakes, all their teeth are identical in
shape as the size changes. And rear fangs have a
big tooth in the back that is enabled to inject
some venom through a rudimentary gland. It's not like a
(10:24):
hypodermic needle. It's like they punch a hole in you
and then their saliva, their venom gets in. And so
there are famously lethal rear fang snakes like a boomslang,
which is not in a family with other venomous snakes
like these guys. They're in the regular snake family, but
they have venom.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Wow. So is it symmetrical? Is there one rear fang
on each side?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah. And then it sounds the way you're describing, thinking
back to some episodes that Joe and I did about
the Gila monster. Is the rear fang kind of more
akin to what beaded lizards have, where it's about sort
of like chewing the venom into the target?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
No.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
It's more like that than the other snakes. Okay. But
it's more like a snake. They don't have to chew
it in, though they sometimes do. And there are a
lot of snakes that are rear fanged that we're just
coming around to realizing they have some type of venom.
Like a lot of normal garter snakes, for example. Apparently
(11:29):
ringneck snakes, very common tiny species here, rear fanged. If
they were big enough to bite us, they would be
a problem. But they're not.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
So we've just been slow to realize it based on
human interactions with the species and their venom?
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Yeah, exactly. And it's the same with lizards. When I
took herpetology, Gila monsters, beaded lizards were the only two
venomous species of lizard. But now it turns out there's
a lot more venomous lizards. Monitor lizards have, we thought
it was just really nasty saliva at first, but now
we're realizing it's actually venom as well. So as venom
(12:05):
is a lot more common, in the reptile world than
originally thought. And that's kind of cool too.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Now, I keep looking over your shoulder here. I don't
want to do too much referring to things that, uh,
that viewers, uh, watching on Netflix can't see, but there is,
there's a tank right behind you from, and, uh, somebody
keeps looking out at me. There's a snake in there
that keeps kind of peeking over. Top? Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
That's Buzz.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
That's a timber rattlesnake.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Oh, okay. Yeah. He's poking up right now.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
He's one of our younger snakes. He's very curious.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So the younger ones tend to be a little more
curious and a little more active.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
At least in here. Perhaps, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And how long have the specimens been physically in this
new room?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
The room is very new. So, I mean, we're talking weeks.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Okay. So are they still getting used to it?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I would say in the last week or two, they've
really started to settle in. And it's nice to see.
They all seem like they really like their new homes.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Now, we've talked about some of the snakes that have
Georgia roots. Now, the ones that have come from much
farther afield, like the beaded lizards, how did they wind
up here?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Oh, that's a great story, too, because when we started,
the zoological community was very supportive. Those were actually donated
by the Chicago Zoo as babies. So they've grown up here,
and they're pretty rare. I don't think they're easy to
get your hands on, but like the A lot of
our ambassador animals have been donated from zoos for that purpose.
(13:36):
We're grateful for that.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I've heard of different organizations ending up with animals because
someone gets caught in an airport with one. Do you
have any origin stories like that?
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Oh, yeah. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife will call us
with stuff that winds up here in Atlanta. Whenever it's
an amphibian, of course, but then They've reached out for
reptiles too. Sometimes the stories aren't just heartbreaking, so we
try to do whatever we can. We're pretty limited on space.
But we do have some animals here as part of confiscations. Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And you already touched on some of the species here
that are threatened or endangered in some way. The Georgia
species that are in that category, is it all habitat loss?
I mean, is climate change in the scenario? What are
some of the factors involved here?
Speaker 3 (14:30):
My mind immediately goes to the eastern diamondback. It's a
species that's worthy of consideration for listing as an endangered species.
There are areas where it is really bumming, but it's
just so hated. It becomes political to try to get
it listed because people hate it so much they don't
want to protect it. But it's been persecuted in the
(14:54):
southeast for.
I don't know, I won't say hundreds of years. We're
talking like there are rattlesnake roundups where the whole thing
is about killing as many as you possibly can. So
it's pretty bleak. When a species has a festival where
you kill them after it, that's a bad situation from
a conservation standpoint. But our snakes, we loan them to
(15:18):
DNR every year to participate in a no-kill event. rattlesnake
festival down in source south georgia which is a newer
alternative to like killing them um so so we're happy
to support that.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
So what are they they just catch them and show
them off and then release it like a catch and
release sort of scenario i think.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
For the festival it's all captive snakes that are brought
from collections such as this.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Okay that makes a lot of sense yeah yeah and.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
So um when we can we accompany our snakes there
and try to participate and Because, you know, it's important
for the township or the county to have their festival, too,
because it's been a huge source of attraction and revenue.
And so we're trying to make that be successful without
harming any animals.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Excellent. I want to come back to Venom a little
bit here, because Venom, I think listeners and viewers will
find this really fascinating, really getting into what venom is.
(16:27):
I think it's easy to just sort of think of
snake venom and you just think of it as the whole.
You think of it almost as the finished product without
thinking about the fact that in many cases, these are
complex cocktails composed of different sorts of components that do
different things and attack different systems. In the body of
(16:49):
a target. Can you walk us through some of the
basics here?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah, I can walk you through the basics. Because you're right.
It's a cocktail in every species, I think, without exception.
And as the research expands, it varies not just by species,
but by population. You know, certain northern timber rattlesnake venom
(17:13):
is very different from the timber rattlesnake venom here in Georgia.
And it's related to a bunch of different factors, including
what they're going after for prey. It's very interesting. But
by and large, the broadest strokes is there are different compounds,
peptides that impact different things. Like vipers, like the majority
(17:36):
of the snakes in this room are pit vipers. They
have a heat pit. and are vipers, they're hemotoxic or
their venom attacks tissue. It just kind of destroys everything
it comes in contact with. That'll hold true for just
about every Georgia snake in the broadest of strokes, except
(17:58):
for the coral snake. We don't have any coral snakes
in this room, but they're an elapid snake. more closely
related to a cobra, that venom acts very differently. It's
delivered differently with those front fixed bangs, and then it
acts differently because it just basically attacks the central nervous system,
and so you just shut down. They're both pretty scary.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Now, you do not have any spitting cobras in here.
Those are probably too far afield, I'm thinking, and then
that would probably, you would have to have extra equipment
on hand to deal with those.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
That sounds terrifying. Yeah, I've never worked with a spitting cobra.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So at this point, we've talked about, of course, venomous snakes.
We've talked a little bit about venomous lizards. But of course,
you're the Amphibian Foundation. Do we have any truly venomous amphibians?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Oh, yeah?
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Oh, yeah. So amphibians are famous for their poison, as
they should be. And I'd just like to mention that
there are frogs that are way more lethal than any
of the animals in this room. But there are venomous
amphibians as well. And I'd like to highlight that there
are amphibians that are venomous and poisonous. So that just
(19:16):
makes it really cool.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Yeah, yeah. And so some of that work is also
pretty recent. You know, the venomous frogs have been discovered recently.
So there are obviously poisonous frogs, but there are frogs
with spines on their skulls and they bash them into
you and inject their venom. That's venom right there. But
(19:39):
my favorite example is from this Plurideales newt. It's the
Iberian rib newt. And so we've known that they've been pretty... toxic.
You would not want to eat one of those. But
they can control and avert their ribs and skewer their
poison sacs and inject you.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yes, okay. I do remember reading about these. Now, I
guess it's the fact that their ribs end up sticking
through their bodies to stab something that's trying to eat
them i guess i tend to i become distracted by
that sort of from our perspective grotesque fact i kind
of forget about the fact that they're pure like so
they're physically piercing their poison gland on the way.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Their ribs are spiked at the end and have a
joint like a knee okay and they line up with
these visible poison sacks that they just puncture And they'll
avert them when they get stressed. You can see that
this is about to happen, you know, because their, their
poison sex could start to get pretty pointy. We have
(20:45):
a group here, but they're chill. So they've never elicited
that response, but I imagine wild plurigilies newts would, would
respond like that.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
So they would, they would, they would have this response
if something was like physically trying to eat it, like
trying to like ingest it or chew it. Exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
So, For example, toads have these huge poison glands on
their shoulders. They're really noxious and toxic. And they'll aim
them at a predator. They'll see the predator and they'll say, hey,
you're going to bite this first. And pleurodialys will do
a similar thing with their spikes. Like you're about to
get a mouthful of poison spikes if you keep going
like that. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Okay, so I can imagine how that one kind of
maybe evolves from the other. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Because I think if you were comparing it to a snake,
you might be tempted to judge it as being a more,
I don't know, primitive venom delivery system since like a
cobra doesn't have to like poke any bones out of
its body.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Right. Yes, that is also pretty fascinating that the newt
in some cases is willing to puncture its own skin,
you know, because there's got to be some pain involved
with that.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
So tell us a little bit about the venomous training
and certification course that you do here. Like, what does
it consist of? And who is it for? Like, what
sorts of people, what sorts of professionals come in here
to take that?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
It's a course we offer every other month here. It's
based on the certification I mentioned earlier that's on the
Rattlesnake Conservancy's training. So they've trained us. And then we've
since built this program here, 100% safe. And so it's
built around... this wonderful collection of serpents and a world-class
(22:28):
venom team that we have here, um, that have been
trained and just run a very tight ship. Um, and
so we have people cause we're in Atlanta. We track
people from all over the country. They come in. It's
very unique opportunity to take a weekend workshop. Uh, and
by the end they are able to safely bag and
(22:49):
bucket a venomous snake without using their hands. So, um,
it's a, course that is academic for the first day
and then practical for the second day. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And so do the, do the people taking it, do
they tend to be like, are they just herp enthusiasts
or are they like professionals who are working in some
sort of an environment where they, they need to potentially
identify and or handle? a venomous creature?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I think you just outlined the majority. The professionals are
either academic or like actual agencies, DNR or U.S. Fish
and Wildlife. And then We do get enthusiasts that want
to safely work with venomous snakes or want to know
how to handle themselves in the field when they encounter,
like if you're out in the field here in Georgia,
(23:36):
it's just a matter of time before you start seeing
venomous snakes and it's better to know how to respond.
So sometimes we get photographers who are out in nature
a lot and they don't want to have a fear-based
response so you can get some confidence. And I like
to point out that the venomous snakes here some of
the most polite snakes you could ever meet. They all
(23:59):
have some type of warning system, you know, cotton mouths.
They'll show you their cotton mouth. That's them saying, I
don't want to bite you. You know what I mean?
The rattle is the same. How polite is that? Look, buddy,
I don't like how this is going. You know, you
can change it, your tune. You know, that would be
best for all of us. That's what I hear when
I hear the rattle, you know. And then even copperheads,
(24:22):
have an affinity for a dry bite. So they'll give
you a warning, you know, that first one's free, you
know what I mean? But, you know, and so I
feel like as far as wildlife is concerned, that is
extremely polite.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah. Because I guess at the end of the day,
like venom is expensive to them. Like it's, it's not
something they want to waste. Uh, if they, what have
they wasted now, then like they have to replenish the supply.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
And, and the venom, is an important part of their
digestive system. So they really don't want to bite something
they're not going to eat.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
And it's because, so the venom, when it's injected, like
it's helping to break down the prey with some of
these cocktails?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Yes, from the inside. And so you'll see that these
rotating fang snakes eat particularly large prey for their size,
and they have larger fangs. Um, and so they eat
less frequently and they eat very large things. And so
(25:21):
that the fangs injected and starts to digest from the inside, uh,
it enables them to process these huge, huge prey. Some
adult vipers eat annually, you know, they can get away
with just eating once a year. It's kind of fascinating.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Now, this is, this is something that is, it's, it's
a complete no brainer. And, um, you know, but it's,
it's worth reminding everyone that of course the snake has
no limbs. it's not going to cut up its food
at all right it's not going to have a way
to like break down the food other than chemically right
so it has it has to eat everything whole right.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah exactly no no chewing and no choice about it
either so just think about how difficult it is if
you were a snake that had to eat something like
got no hands you just gotta go ahead and bite
that sucker You know, it's pretty risky when you think
about it.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Right, right. Because, yeah, I'm thinking that opens them up
to predation by any number of their natural predators, right?
Once while they're trying to consume something else.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
That is when they were absolutely at their most vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And at least here in Georgia, what are some of
the predators that are coming after these venomous snakes? What
are their enemies, aside from human beings, of course?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Oh, yeah, there are. things that'll um that'll eat venomous
snakes um yeah raptors will uh i think i think
most mammals i don't know how they would respond to
being envenomated probably probably not well i think a lot
of them have have learned to leave some of these
snakes alone you know through their warning mechanisms.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right because that's the other side of the communication we
were talking.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
About yes because the These animals want to communicate that
before any altercation. And everybody gets away easy when they
try to kill them. And so they're trying to convey
that message as quickly as possible. I don't think raptors care,
but they've got to kill that thing quick.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Now, I have a question here. We were talking about
this before we recorded, but I wanted to ask it
anyway because I think a lot of listeners and viewers
might be wondering it as well. So we're in a
venom lab. Are venomous snakes milked for anti-venom here?
Speaker 1 (27:35):
No.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
We do not put our hands on these snakes under
any circumstances. Occasionally for medical or vet checks, we'll tube them.
Are you familiar with tubing a snake?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
No. Tell me about this.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
We have a series of very rigid tubes here. And
if you coax a venomous snake into a tube and
hold it, it cannot turn around. It's physically impossible for
it to bite you when it's inside of a tube.
So we can do exams at least on the back
two thirds of a snake when it's in a tube
completely safely. Uh, so that's the only time we would
(28:12):
do that. Um, Because it's possible to do every other
degree of husbandry and maintenance without using your hands.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So, yeah. So that sort of thing is going to
happen at other places. Now, do you have to keep
any anti-venom on hand here? Or is it one of
those things where with the right protocols, you just never
reach that step?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, I'm glad you asked. Because before, earlier today, I
was like, you know, I want to get some fresh
stats done. How many people have been killed by rattlesnake
envenomation in the last 10 years? I wanted to have
some fresh numbers. Answer is zero. Zero fatalities. There's antivenin
for every species in this room at every hospital because
(28:54):
it's common antivenin that is commonly produced now. And so
I know that the anti-venom trade and milking venomous snakes
is a field of work, and there are labs that
do that kind of stuff, but not us. We're more
about trying to address public perception and having people be
(29:19):
able to be professional and competent working in the field
with venomous snakes as part of raising that public perception.
We have more competent people out there able to identify
copper I should mention, we don't get nearly as many
misidentifications on the Copperhead hotline like I did at the beginning.
And that might be anecdotal evidence. that what we're doing
(29:40):
is working. You know, I'd like to think it is.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Now, you alluded to them already, but let's come back
to Team Venom, the various folks that you depend on
here in the Venom lab. How many people are we talking?
What sort of skill sets? Tell us about this crew.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
It's a very special, very small crew. We have four
people right now, and they're amazing. I mean, this program
is on their shoulders, their professionalism. It's taking a big
risk starting a program with deadly snakes and teaching people
how to manipulate them with with tools and so uh
(30:27):
we have mayor john sammy vahab and roxanna that are
the four core people of this program making it happen
we just offered our first venomous certification last weekend at
the new location so it's exciting to use the new
building for for this purpose so we're very excited and
i feel like it's going to really expand from here.
(30:49):
I feel like our home here is a really great
place for us in a community that values wildlife, you know,
and this is all really fertile soil for us to
grow from. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And what else is on the horizon for the Amphibian Foundation, especially,
you know, concerning the vilified species and, you know, the
venomous species and these species that are wrongly considered by
many to be some sort of like enemy of humanity.
Like what other, what other efforts and programs do you
have on the horizon? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Thank you. I mean, I've noticed since we've been doing this,
that I get my up when, when people are acting
in bad ways towards wildlife, just because they don't understand
or they're afraid or, you know, these are valid feelings too,
but we just feel very deep inspiration to push back
(31:41):
on that. So we've, We've started, well, we've done eight
years of biology of the despised as part of the
Atlanta Science Festival. Started with copperheads. Wanted to celebrate them.
And like 100 people came, you know. And we've highlighted
other groups, snapping turtles. Just snakes in general, you know.
Like there are lots of groups that are targeted as despised.
(32:05):
And so we're basing an entire course on that. Just
trying to elevate things. Because... This will give us an
opportunity to expand beyond the amphibian and reptile groups. And
maybe there's lots of despised taxa. A lot of people
doing really fascinating work with them too, that we'd like
to highlight. So I'm putting out a beacon for anyone
that would like to reach out to us that's working
(32:27):
with despised taxa.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Because this goes without saying, and certainly is a whole
episode unto itself. But, you know, obviously these complex venoms
in these organisms, like, you know, we've found various uses
for these. In the field of medicine and pharmacology. So
it's like there's untapped potential there, right? So these animals
(32:49):
should be considered more our friends than our villain, especially
in that capacity.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
There are a lot of interesting compounds in the venom
and very similarly with frogs and the alkaloids in their skin.
used pharmaceutically to treat a lot of diseases like cancers
and can stop viral transmissions. There's a treasure chest in
these compounds, and we need to protect the animals for
(33:14):
that reason, if not for any of the other reasons
I gave you. Is that lizard being bad?
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I was hearing something back there. Oh, it's one of
the beaded lizards.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Look at how charming they are. Yeah. If you want,
you can glove up and you can hold one of those.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Let's see. I want to come back to the hotline.
So I understand there's a web presence. If people want
to get that number, if they have a Copperhead question,
where can they go to get that number? Yes.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Sorry. I don't have the number memorized right now. It's copperhead.life.
That will take you to the hotline and we'll come, uh,
our volunteer team, trained professional volunteer team will come and
relocate a copperhead in Metro Atlanta for free. Um, though
we have been coming, uh, more adept, uh, Mayor John
has become more adept at convincing people to just leave
(34:06):
the snake where it is.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Because it's entirely possible to live alongside these animals with
no issue. It's actually pretty easy. Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah. I've heard similar cases with like, with various wildlife
rescue scenarios where like sometimes The important communication is like,
just leave it alone. You don't need to get involved
in this particular scenario. No one's ever been bit by
a snake that just came up and bit you. You
know what I mean? The worst is if you accidentally
step on a thing. Okay, maybe that's a concern. But
(34:35):
most of these bites are happening with people that are
messing with the snakes. They're trying to kill it. They're
trying to move it. So that's what we're trying to
address as well. And finally, I want to come back
to the Amphibian Foundation itself. So where online can folks
go to learn more about Amphibian Foundation? Where can they
(34:56):
follow you online? Which are your preferred social accounts? Sure.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Thank you. And I should mention that the reason for
all this is that we're trying to conserve some of
the country's most imperiled amphibian species. And we fund these
conservation programs with these programs. So the venom class helps
us save frosted flatwood salamanders and gopher frogs and striped newts.
And you can learn all about that at amphibianfoundation.org. And
(35:23):
we're on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook as well.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Okay. And if folks want to help support, like chip
in and help the Amphibian Foundation, in addition to if
they're locally based or traveling to Atlanta, partaking in any
of these programs, what else can they do?
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yeah, we have a growing network. And so there is
a lot of work to do when we're trying to
save amphibians and elevate these groups. So people can come
to the website and look for opportunities to volunteer with
AF if you want to get involved. Donations are always
appreciated and necessary. And we also have a good resource
(36:02):
for how to make your yard more amphibian friendly and
things that you can do at home for amphibians. So
there's lots of ways to get involved no matter where
you are.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Excellent. Yeah, and I know we've talked about some of
these in our past episodes where you came on. So
I would say listeners also, if you just want to
hear more with Mark, check in our backlog wherever you
get your audio podcasts. And yeah, it's like two, maybe
three times you came on the show and talked about
amphibians and snakes.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
And it's always a privilege. I really, really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Oh, we always love to have you on. Thanks for...
allow me to come in and check out the new
venom lab. Uh, I do want to just for anybody
watching on Netflix, I do want to point out, this
is a room climate control for reptiles. And then we
went ahead and added, I think five humans total, and
then some lights and stuff. So if I'm visibly sweating, uh, that's,
that's the main reason, not the, not the venomous reptiles
(36:58):
behind me. I know they are behind, uh, safely behind screens. So, Uh,
but yeah, Mark, thanks for letting us come in, check
out the new facility and chatting with me once more, uh, about, uh,
about amphibians and reptiles.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, this was great. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
All right. Thanks. All right. Uh, everyone out there, uh,
just want to remind everyone that stuff to blow your
mind is primarily a science and culture podcast with core
episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do a short form
episode on Wednesday and then on Fridays we set aside
most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film
on weird house cinema. As always, I want to thank
(37:32):
the excellent JJ Possway for producing the audio on this show.
And also, I want to thank Jordan and Brock for
handling video on this. If you are catching this episode
at Netflix, you can get the audio version wherever you
get your audio podcast. But if you want to check
out the video version of this episode, you will find
it on Netflix, along with our more recent episodes as well.
(37:53):
If you want to get in touch with us, just
shoot us an email at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple
Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Thank you.
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