Weirdhouse Cinema: Witchfinder General

In this episode of Weirdhouse Cinema, Rob and Joe discuss the 1968 film “Witchfinder General,” directed by Michael Reeves and starring Vincent Price, often held up as a pivotal English folk horror entry, alongside 71’s “The Blood on Satan’s Claw” and 73’s “The Wickerman.”

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hey, welcome to Weird House Cinema.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
This is Rob Lamb and this is Joe McCormick.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Today we're discussing a film that is broadly considered to
be one of the big three British folk horror films
of the late sixties and early seventies, and as such
one of the legs of the folk car tripod, if
you will, that kind of holds up the rest of
the subgenre. Everything that comes afterwards built on these three films.
It's sometimes arcute. The other two films in this tripod

(00:41):
are Robin Hardy's The wicker Man from seventy three, which
we've covered previously on Weird House Cinema and a two
parter Go back and find that one in the audio
archives of Weird House Cinema and Stuff to Blow your
Mind wherever you get your podcasts. And then the other
leg of the tripod is nineteen seventy one's The Blood
on Satan's Claw. Today's film, though, is going to be

(01:03):
that third leg. It's going to be nineteen sixty eight's
which finder general three films that I want to give
everyone a warning that we're going to we're going to
discuss some level of spoilers for all three films, which
I know might be more of a might drive off
some listeners and they're like, I don't want to get
into spoilers. We're mostly talking about which finder general, but

(01:24):
in discussing the way that this film is pivotal, we're
going to discuss some of the some of the spoilers
about the other two.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yeah, and I guess we should. Since we're issuing warnings,
we should say warning that all three movies in their
own ways have disturbing violence in them, you know, so
if you're going in be aware that that's that's something
you should be prepared for. I'd say the Wickerman the
least of the three. The other two more disturbing in
their own ways. But all three, of course, do not

(01:51):
to spoil too much, do have some some pretty messed
up stuff going on.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Absolutely, But if you are up for a British Folk
Are triple feature, if you're going to watch all three
films on a weekend, or all three films back to back,
I do recommend watching them in their release order, which
is the opposite order in which I ultimately watched them.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah, same here.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah. Now, my original intent for this episode of Weird
House Cinema was for us to discuss the Blood on
Satan's Claw, and that's why we both watched it this weekend.
It is a tremendously weird and disturbing film about rural
eighteenth century English farmers who unearthed the remains of a
disfigured body in the earth, which unleashes a string of

(02:33):
bizarre and destructive incidents that include madness, delusions, self mutilation,
ritual murder, corrupted youth, and all of it culminates in
the earth freed Creature's attempt to reclaim the skin, the
hairy skin that it's been growing on the bodies of
its corrupted human followers, and only a brutal witchfinder with

(02:55):
a massive sword can set things right.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
He shall use methods undreamed of.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yes, it's a it's a fabulous line in the film,
but also at the end of I was like, I
could have dreamed of that. I think I could drink giants.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
You take a big sword and hit them with it.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah, just with a big sword, but still great line,
great delivery. So with Blood on Satan's Claw, the Weird
Highs are pretty dizzy, fabulously weird film, and that alone
would have made for an excellent weird house discussion. But
the disturbing scenes are pretty disturbing and would have been
a much heavier lift for us, So we passed it
up and naturally pivoted to the other remaining leg of

(03:33):
the Unholy Tripod UH sixty eighth witch Finder General. Here.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Fortunately, nothing too disturbing in this.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
No, this is plenty disturbing.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah. You can see how these two
films are, I think in a way, though they're very
different from each other, Blood On Satan's Claw and witch
Finder General I think have more in common thematically than
the Wicker does, because while you can see how they

(04:04):
all three share, these elements that would come to people
would come to associate with full core like rural settings,
like maybe a city dweller of some kind comes out
to a rural setting, encounters older beliefs being unearthed, or
at least the allegation of older beliefs being unearthed. Kind
of a dangerous structure of power that is being acted

(04:27):
upon because of or empowered by superstition. You can see
all that stuff, But the things that Blood On Satan's
Claw and Witchfinder General really have in common is that
they are about witch hunting in the end, but their orientation,
like the moral orientation to witch hunting, is totally reversed
between them.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
That's right. The Blood on Satan's Claw is very much
a film in which the supernatural threat is real, and
therefore witches to some extent, to a large extent, are real.
The devil is even physically real, and therefore a witch
Finder General is just free to use whatever means they're

(05:09):
necessary to fight evil. I guess, but which Finder General
is situated in a cinematic take on the reality of
historic witchcraft persecution in the sixteen hundreds concerning fictionalized versions
of historic persons and its evil is confined to that
of human barbarism and misogyny and various other horriblenesses in

(05:31):
a time of chaos and civil war.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Right, So, Witchfinder General is a movie with no magic
in it. There are horrors, but they are horrors of
human making.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
It's kind of interesting to remind oneself that that the
Wickerman also has no overt magic. There's no real, definite
supernatural element there. I guess you could read into it
that it does but it does not state it in
any clear fashion.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
I don't think it encourages a supernatural reading, and did
want to take a supernatural reading on it, that would
be speculative. But in Blood on Satan's Claw, it's just
totally it's a supernatural movie. Yeah, it's about witchcraft and
the devil are real.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah. Another thing I would point out about these two films,
about Satan's Claw and Which Finder, both of them were
from a production level related. They were both productions of Tigon,
British Film Productions, and yeah, like like you reverenced earlier,
at the very least, Blood on Satan's Claw is described

(06:32):
as sort of building upon the success of Which Finder General.
So I don't think it's a rehash, but clearly they
were like, let's take a little of this, let's add
a little village of the damn you know, throwing a
couple of other things, and let's see what we can create. Yeah. Now,
I want to set expectations in the right place though,
for Which Finder General. For example, when I rented the

(06:54):
blu ray of it from Atlanta's own Video Drum, a
couple of folks there, Matt and Jordan, they warned me
that well, you know, it's maybe not as full car
as some people expect it to be, knowing its reputation.
And they also said it's like a lot of screaming.
It's it's like mostly screaming, which is also true. But yeah, indeed,
if you're going into it expecting more of like a

(07:16):
wicker Man like experience or certainly a blood on Satan's
Claw like experience, is going to be different. It's a
different sort of beast. And I have to admit, like
going into which Finder General right after Satan's Claw, at
first it felt like a little bit of a let
down to me because it was coming up from like
this speculative weirdness, you know, with magic and demons, and

(07:39):
also just a very sort of fractured plot, a lot
of mysteries, things that didn't make sense, either intentionally or
unintentionally into this film, which is I think, in many
ways a lot tighter and also telling a real world story,
certainly highly fictionalized, but nothing in Which Finder General couldn't happen.
And I think it's fair to say that most of

(08:00):
the things, not character specific, but most of the things
that we see in the film actually did happen to
someone at some point unfortunately.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah, I would also say of the three, which Finder
General is structurally the most familiar, Like it has a
pretty standard kind of movie plot structure that we can
talk about, and it also is just the clearest in
its meaning. The other movies I think invite a lot
more ambiguity and interpretations. It seems to me Which Finder

(08:30):
General is a very rhetorical film. It's making a point,
and it's very obvious what that point is.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
For instance, it's very clear who the bad guys are.
There's not even a hint of doubt, like whose side
you could be on, Whereas I feel like wicker Man
certainly engages in that question, and to a much more
limited extent, so does Satan's Claw. Yeah, but yeah, Which
Finder General is very good? There are certainly times, I

(08:56):
think in the notes I even may have stated that
it was my least favorite of the three. And I
don't know if I don't like to rank things, but
I think initially that's how I felt about it. I'm
kind of coming up now that I've worked in the
notes and thought a bit more about the film, my
esteem for Which Finder General has come up a fair amount.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Oh okay, interesting, Well, if we are going to talk
about ranking anyway, Personally, I don't know exactly how I
would negotiate Blood on Satan's Claw versus Which Finder. General,
I would absolutely agree that Wickerman is the best of
the three. People will probably not be surprised to hear
me say that, since I've talked on the show before
about how it's one of my all time favorite movies.

(09:35):
It's definitely the weirdest, the most surprising, the funniest, and
the most horrifying and the most thematically complex in a
good way. It's all of that at once. And I
don't know, I just can't say enough good things about Wickerman.
Every time I see it, like I discover new ways
of thinking about it. So Wickerman is in a class
of its own. The other two movies, I don't know

(09:57):
exactly how i'd rank, but I thought they were They
both gave me a lot to think about. I thought
they were interesting.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Blood on Satan's Claw, weirdly enough, does have at least
one really funny scene involving the discussion of which dunking,
But that kind of speaks also to how disjointed that
film can be at times, which I've read is in
part due to the fact that it was originally conceived
as an anthology, like different stories set in the same town,
and then they all become one story.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
I think actually the patchwork and disjointed nature of Blood
on Satan's Claw works in its favor. That comes to
make it feel a little more You're a little more
disoriented in terms of the plot structure, and it makes
it less predictable what's coming next, because you have these
scenes that feel kind of out of place, or like

(10:45):
they're picking up from some other movie you haven't seen,
or things like that.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah. Yeah, it begins to feel like a bad dream. Yeah,
but of course Which Finder also can feel like a
really bad dream at times as well.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, that's true. So there were some things that I
did think were really interesting about Which Finder General, and
I want to talk about some of those things here.
One is about playing with genre. I am certainly not
the first person to notice this, but Which Finder General
is basically a Western.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
That's an amazing point. I didn't think about it, but
now that you've said it, like everything lines up.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, it doesn't look like a Western because of the setting,
So it's not set in nineteenth century. In the nineteenth
century American West. It's set in the seventeenth century in
British East Anglia during the English Civil War, so the
eastern part of England English Civil Wars going on. But
there are a lot of things that if you just

(11:47):
kind of like substitute out the historical setting, it's a
western's So instead of like dry desert landscapes and dusty
cowboys with six shooters, we have these lush green forests
and meadows and mud booted, roundheaded soldiers with musket pistols.
And if you look for them, there are a lot

(12:08):
of the forms and sensibilities of the Western in here.
You've got chases on horseback, deadly gun play with handheld firearms,
in this case it's matchlock pistols. There is this sense
of lawlessness where higher authorities are absent or failed and
small towns are preyed on by roaming groups of men

(12:30):
with various kinds of power. Even the musical score to
me sounded a lot like the score to a Western,
so it's got a couple of influences. The music does
have a strong sense of English folk ballads, things like
John Barleycorn and Green Sleeves, but it also has sections

(12:50):
that feel like they're from a Western epic, like the
Score to the Searchers with John Wayne.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah. So, as I said, I'm not the first person
to notice critics have talked about this before, but I
think I would have gotten to this observation independently because
it's really strong. It really comes through. Another thing I
think is really interesting about Witch Finder general is the
way that it portrays its witch hunter characters. I was
thinking about this in contrast to other ways that witch

(13:20):
hunters are imagined on film. So one way you can
do it is basically witch hunters are the good guys.
For example, in Blood on Satan's Claw, the witchcraft is real,
and it is terrible and frightening, and it requires a
violent response. And so this is where we get the
judge played by Patrick Wymark saying I shall use undreamed

(13:41):
of measures. As you said, it's a sword, but it is.
You know, he's bringing the sword to a witch fight,
and obviously anything can work within the bounds of fantasy.
It is kind of hard to take this witch Hunters
as good guy's vision as having any relevance to actual
witch hunting.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah. Yeah, and it can even feel just a real
a little bit wrongheaded, depending on how vers you are
in the history of things. But I don't know, it
becomes a part of a lot of a lot of
different franchises and so forth. You see it in like
Warhammer and Warhammer forty k. But even then, I think
those franchises are playing with the like the dark nature
of the thing, like these kind of anti heroes, you know,

(14:24):
people doing horrible things in a horrible world where maybe
the worst choice is also the best choice, that sort
of thing. But yeah, Whymark's judge is kind of presented
as a learned man who, upon examining the facts, just
kind of invents witch hunting for himself.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
Yeah, I'm the first person to think of this.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, But at the same time, fiery conclusion of that
film kind of suggests that maybe the judge is as
much a devil as the twisted creature from the ground.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
I didn't really think about it that way in Blood
on Satan's Claw. That's interesting. I'll have to look out
for that next time we watch. Okay, So another way
that you can put together a witch hunt story is
showing the witch hunters as figures that highlight the dangers
of fanaticism. So a story like this is going to
be a statement usually about religion and belief. Witch hunting

(15:13):
harms innocent people, to show us what happens when people
give in to superstition and unchecked religious mania. It's like
an it's an absence of reason, an absence of rationality.
That is usually the you know, what's really gone wrong
in these types of stories.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
And I think people are perhaps more used to this
sort of witch hunting trope in terms of like general
storytelling and also just common language, because if someone is
accusing something of being a witch hunt, which they do,
they're generally trying to make a point that it's some
sort of like ridiculous, over zealous persecution of the innocent,

(15:52):
and so I think we're all rather acquainted with that,
and we see direct examples of that in various shows
and stories and which you know, there are religious zealots
that are actively going after women and accusing them of
being witches and then doing horrible things to them.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yeah, and you can get, of course mixes of these
different types as well. So I think the example of
the Crucible, you know, it has elements of the dangers
of fanaticism, but also the next category I'm going to
talk about, which is dangers of authoritarianism, whereas the last
category is about religion and belief. These types of stories
are more a statement about power and systems of law

(16:28):
and justice. So witch hunters operate under the aegis of
some state or church authority, and they use that power
vested in them in an extreme and oppressive way. These
stories are often analogized to the actions of even secular
authoritarian governments. So you know, if you could think about
to whatever extent, the Crucible is about this type of

(16:51):
witch hunting abuse, it was also an analogy for McCarthyism,
but which Finder General offers, I would a a slightly
different model from any of those because the villains of
this film, Matthew Hopkins and John Stern, which again are
based on real historical figures. It's fictionalized for the movie,

(17:13):
but there really were, you know, there are there are
historical figures at the core of these characterizations. How they
are portrayed in the movie is not at all as
authentic puritanical fanatics, and they're also not exactly an expression
of like top down authoritarian terror, because this comes through

(17:37):
in the movie. But it was also historically true that
Hopkins and Stern did not actually have the approval of
any central authority or institution that people at the time
would have viewed as legitimate. They were essentially murder scammers,
and that is how they're portrayed in the movie. I
think that's the best way to think of them. They're

(17:58):
running a griff and it just happens to involve killing
people for alleged witchcraft.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
That is a great point. Yeah, because neither man is
portrayed as being a dangerous zealot. They don't they don't
seem to really be religiously invested in what they're doing.
I mean, Stern is definitely a detestable statist, but Hopkins
is just Hopkins is more complex. But yeah, I like
the description that they're both murder scammers because that does

(18:25):
drive home what they're doing here.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Right, So the different model you get in this movie
is witch hunters as sadistic, opportunistic predators. They are taking
advantage of the environment of superstition and fanaticism among the locals,
and they're also taking advantage of the lawlessness and confusion
introduced by the Civil War in order to run a

(18:50):
scam where they travel from town to town pretending to
be legitimate authorities authorized by Parliament to solve the dangerous
witchcraft problem that is plaguing the land, when in reality
they're just torturing, murdering, and preying on random innocent people,
then demanding money from local authorities and compensation, and then

(19:11):
packing up and moving on. So it is like a
traveling scam. It's a traveling medicine show almost in a way.
It just involves like torturing and executing people.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, And a really telling detail that I thought was
important is that that Hopkins doesn't just roll up music
man style and convince the town that it needs some
witch finding, though how amazing would that have been. Now
he is called, he is paid, and he has no
problem whatsoever finding locals to willingly and even enthusiastically aid

(19:42):
him in his cruelty.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah. So I think this is a really interesting take
on witch hunting, and it highlights a type of violence
and exploitation that still very much exists today. You might
think of this as like the witch hunting entrepreneur, people
who take advantage of chaotic and confusing situations to fake

(20:10):
their way into being granted trust by people who are
looking for safety and order, and then abusing that trust
for their own personal and often actually sadistic gain.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, today they would be influencers properly or or you know,
I don't know, even people with some sort of a
nebulous government position in certain you know, certain certainly and
fascist waning regimes in the world today.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, authoritarian entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
So this is one way in which I would say
that Witchfinder General is distinct from a lot of the
other full corror movies you might be thinking of, because
a lot of those really are concerned with with belief
and ritual and religion, like with pagan beliefs or witchcraft itself,
you know, with what these belief systems actually involve and

(21:02):
what their rituals are. That's kind of beside the point
in which Finder General it's not even really about the
religion of the oppressors either, because you know, the Christianity
of the witch Finders seems maybe they believe it, but
it's kind of lightly held. They're mainly like they have
found a way to do to stamp out what they

(21:24):
believe is heresy in a way that is profitable.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
They're a lucrative loophole.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
Yes, So it is different in that regard I think
in that it is less focused on religion and ritual
and belief in magic and all that kind of stuff,
and more on just murderous bureaucracy and opportunistic predators that
look for vacuums of power.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
All right, well, let's go ahead, and we'll just mention
now that if you're looking to watch this movie for yourself,
it's widely available. I believe the version I ran it
from video drone is the eighty eight Films Blu ray,
which I guess is region free because I was able
to play it always checking. I'm never an expert on
the regions of these things, so do check before you
purchase a disc. But you can also find it on

(22:12):
various streaming sites, including MGM plus and two B. I'll
also note that when it was released in the US,
it was released as The Conqueror Worm, with an intro
in outro featuring Vincent Price reading the Edgarllan Poe poem,
apparently in a loose attempt to tie it in with
the Price po cycle of Roger Korman films. But this film,

(22:33):
it actually has nothing to do with the works of
ed Ground Poe.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
Nothing, and it's not Yeah, it's not. It does have
Vincent Price, it's not Roger Korman. It doesn't have to
do with Poe. Yeah, they just tack the I actually watched.
My disc has a way of watching the original intro
and outro with the with the reading of the poem.
You know, I love Vincent Price reading a poem, but
I'm gonna say, honestly, it doesn't really add much here.

(22:58):
I'd probably watch without.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
By the way, the version I watched was the Shout
Factory Vincent Price collection, which is very good. Has Pitt
in the Pendulum, Mask of the Red Death, Haunted Palace,
follow the House of Usher, Abominable Doctor Fibes, and witch
Finder General. So excellent. Oh, excellent list there. This collection
is worth it.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, some great flicks on that desk for sure, right
in that set. All right, let's get into the people
who made this movie. Starting at the top of the
writer director. It's Michael Reeves, who lived nineteen forty three
through nineteen sixty nine. Tragically short lived director. He only

(23:41):
directed three full length films, She Beast in nineteen sixty six,
The Sorcerers in sixty seven, which we previously covered on
Weird House Cinema. That one had Boris Karloff in it. Yeah,
and then and then The Witch Finder General in sixty eight,
his final film. He subsequently died of an accidental d overdose.
She be starred English actor and Italian horror movie queen

(24:04):
Barbara Steele. That one sounds like it's a lot of fun,
but I haven't seen it. And which Finder General is?
I think generally regarded as his best film and certainly
his most famous, And part of that is just the
quality of the film itself. But I think also was
kind of like maybe the mystique of a young director
dying young after having made it. Yeah, he was only

(24:26):
in his mid twenties when he made this film, and
so we can't help but imagine, you know, what else
he might have accomplished, had he, you know, had a
you know, a longer life and longer career.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah. I have read that this is a movie that
critics really warmed up to over time, that at first
critics were not very thrilled with it, but over time
people really came back to it and thought there was
something special about it.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah. Yeah, let's see the writing credits on this. We
have Tom Baker, not to be confused with the actor
this is a not much that I could find out
about this guy age not public record. He also worked
on the screenplay for The Sorcerers. Then we also have
Lewis M. Hayward, who lived nineteen twenty through two thousand

(25:13):
and two, an Emmy nominated screenwriter and producer whose other
writing credits include the English version of the screenplay to
sixty five's Planet of the Vampires, Doctor Goldfoot and the
Girl Bombs and The Ghost in the Invisible Bikini, both
from sixty six, and then The Crimson Colt from sixty eight.
As a producer, he produced a number of sixties and
seventies horrors films, including Scream and Scream Again in nineteen seventy,

(25:36):
which we've talked about on the show, both Fibes movies,
and we've covered both of those on the show, and
then also Curtis Harrington's Whoever Slew Anti Rue in seventy two.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
Wow, Okay, I mean that's a list. Yeah, have you
seen Ghost in the Invisible Bikini?

Speaker 2 (25:52):
I feel like I've seen bits and pieces of these
various bikini movies with I'm not even sure off the
top of my head which one Vincent Price shows up
in and so forth.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
I think he's in He's in, well, he's the Goldfoot Okay,
I think because I remember Doctor Goldfoot and in the
Bikini Machine, which is like it's like one of those
sandwich shop toasters on a conveyor belt, except I think
it just puts out ladies and bikinis.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Okay, yeah, I mean yeah, maybe I'll have to to
see one of those at some point. Summer would be
a good time for high art, let's see. Oh and
the other thing about the writing is all this was
based on a novel, an original novel by Ronald Bassett,
who lived nineteen twenty fourth through nineteen ninety six, a
British writer of mostly historical fiction, and the novel came

(26:42):
out in sixty four. All right, well, let's get into
the cast, starting with, of course, Vincent Prize playing Matthew
Hopkins here. Price lived nineteen eleven through nineteen ninety three.
This is our eighth Vincent Price film and Weird House Cinema.
So he's tied with Christopher Lee right now for our
most watched for four So, since we've talked about him before,
I'm not going to do the full bio treatment here,

(27:04):
but instead try and place this film in his life.
In filmography, Price would have been in his mid fifties
at the time. This was after the Corman post cycle,
after his appearance on TV's Batman as the villain Egghead,
so you know, he was certainly hamming it up plenty
at this point. But this was also before sixty nine's
Oblong Box, before Scream and Scream Again, and also before

(27:27):
The Abominable Doctor Fibes in seventy one. Price was, of
course an American actor and is here playing a British
character in a British production, not his first but still notable.
Also worth noting that correct me if I'm wrong here, Joe,
because this is one of those things that I watched
the movie, didn't think about it once, and then came

(27:47):
back and I was like, oh, I guess that was
the case. Like, he doesn't do a British accent here,
does he? Does? He just you use his standard transit,
the Atlantic accent.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
I didn't even think about it. Whatever he was doing
did not catch my attention in terms of accents. Yeah,
it just it just passed as normal.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah. Yeah, it's like something up since Vincent Price's like
theatrical voice and essentially his actual voice, and you hearman interviews.
I don't know it. It's so distinctly him. And it
also is not like accent wise tied to a particular
part of the United States. He just it feels right
that he should be in this picture. And I never

(28:26):
questioned it a single time.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yeah, somehow was just not thinking about accents at all.
So I would say Vincent Price is great in this movie,
but it is not a typical Vincent Price performance. You know,
we love him when he does his his high theatrical
style or when he embraces camp and that's not going
on here. This is a I would say the closest

(28:49):
thing we've seen to this is his performance in The
Last Man on Earth. This is a serious and much
more subdued style of Vincent Price.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
He is.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
He's not hamming it.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Up, that's right. Prices Hopkins is a cold and dead
eyed opportunist, and you know, we gather he's in no
hurry to actually do most of the dirty work of
interrogation and execution himself. But yeah, he does not oppose
it on moral grounds at all. He has no moral grounds.
He's a ruthless man of calculating exploitation and is in

(29:25):
No Ways fun and in No Ways and then in
in No Way Hammy. So if you're looking for like
a really visually interesting I mean, I'll take that. It's
a very visually interesting performance. Is a great performance. But
if you're looking for sort of the you know, the
high melodrama or high Hammy Vincent Price, that's not where
you're gonna find here. You're gonna find something a lot

(29:45):
more grounded and really scary.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
One another way I'll put it is Price kind of
specialized in portraying villains that are still kind of lovable
in an ironic way. Like so in Mass the Red Death,
he's playing Prince Prospero, who's like trying to He's trying
to be the most evil man alive. You know, I'm
just like, I'm going to explore all types of evil.

(30:10):
But even despite like his evil, he's just delicious. He's
just lovable on screen. And it's part it's that hamminess
and theatrical style. You can't help but love him. None
of that going on here. Matthew Hopkins in this movie
is a detestable, disgusting character, and Price does it very well,

(30:32):
like he fits right in.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, absolutely a Price apparently clashed with the young Reeves,
the director on the production. Reeves reportedly, in like early
goings and early pre production, really wanted Donald Pleasants for
the role. And if you're familiar with the work of
Donald Pleasants, you can, I mean, Pleasants had had a
range of his own and certainly wasn't confined to just

(30:55):
one type of character. But you know, the sort of
take Donald Pleasants would have likely had here definitely old
calculating and so forth, And so he pushed for that.
The studio, on the other hand, pushed for Vincent Price
and said, you know, you're getting Vincent Price, and so
Reeves ends up pushing for you know this more like

(31:15):
nuanced you know, less theatrical performance from Vincent Price, and
this apparently led to some tension, at least at first.
Also there was some other stuff that apparently happened, like
there's a point where Reeves directed Price to fire a
pistol from horseback, and it resulted in Price being thrown
from the horse. So you know, that's not going to

(31:37):
help your working relationship. But later on, Vincent Price apparently,
you know, ultimately judged at one of his best performances
and and you decided, yeah, that was the right direction
to go in. I've also I've read different accounts of
a supposed interaction that occurred between the two of them.

(31:57):
There's a frequently cited this regular Zinger exchange when Vincent
Price supposedly says young man, I've made eighty four films,
what have you done? And Reeve's responds, I've made two
good ones. And I've read accounts that make this seem
like a really biting back and forth. But more reputable
accounts seem to indicate that like Price laughed at this

(32:18):
zinger and complied and maybe wasn't. I don't know, you
know how this goes with behind the scenes dirt. Sometimes
it's played up to be far more toxic than it was,
And in the write up that I found from Will
Hodgkinson and The Guardian, it sounds like it was a
far less toxic than it somehow may sometimes made out
to be. But I agree, absolutely evil character, not a

(32:41):
lovable character. And it's fitting because again Matthew Hopkins was
a real person and a central actor in the witchcraft
craze of the English Civil War, responsible for at least
something like two hundred and thirty and maybe many more
deaths between the year sixteen forty four and sixteen forty seven.
And his interrogation methods, the cruelty that he employed are

(33:02):
on the whole what you see in the film. You know,
the film can only go so far. And then also
the film does a little bit of an invention. But
for the most part, like this is this is very believable.

Speaker 3 (33:13):
From what I've read, I think Hopkins and Stern alone
accounted for like the bulk of witchcraft executions in this period.
There were other people persecuting alleged witches at this time,
but Hopkins and Stern were real overachievers. They were they
killed so many had very outsized impact in this domain.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
All right, So that's our central villain and we'll come
back to Stern in just a second. Well, no, I'll
go ahead and cover Stern since we're talking about it.
So John Stern is played by Robert Russell. Robert Russell
lived nineteen thirty six through two thousand and eight. And yeah,
just on one level, like just an absolutely hateable Hinchman,
but it's more nuanced than just like villain and Hinchman,

(34:01):
like they are uneasy partners in this murder. Con exercise,
and they do not love each other. There is a
fair amount of animosity between the two of them, and
clearly Hopkins Hopkins has no love for this guy, no
loyalty to him, and it kind of goes both ways.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, they have slightly different styles. It's true that they're
not loyal to each other at all. They kind of
need each other to keep this thing going. That's clearly
what they're mainly concerned with is just keeping this thing rolling. Yeah,
but they're portrayed is different. They're both sadists and they're
both evil, but Stern comes off as a hot blooded,

(34:43):
kind of lustful, chaotic evil, whereas Hopkins comes off as
cold blooded, kind of lawful evil or neutral evil. Hopkins
likes to project an air of civility and gentility in public,
so like there will be these conflicts between them where
Hopkins does not publicly endorse torture, you know, he's like, oh,

(35:06):
we don't do that, but then privately he's fine with it.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, yeah, or we're fine with things that are maybe
not legally like legally torture under the laws at the time,
Like for instance, I think historically in England, at least
you weren't going to find like thumbscrews used in these interrogations,
but all other sorts. There were a number of other
things that were allowed because they were like, oh, you're

(35:30):
testing you know this, or that. We'll get into the
techniques that are explored in the film later on.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
I mean it reminds me, though sadly, of things in
much more recent history where it's like, oh, we don't
do torture, I mean we will do water boarding or
these other things that are obviously torture. Is just making
these stupid distinctions, like we don't call that torture for
some reason.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, or sleep deprivation, which is something you see in
that category today and was absolutely one of the or
at least allegedly was one of the tactics that that
they used that these two gentlemen used. A gentleman he
used lightly, but these two men used in their crimes.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
So, But anyway, detestable character John Stern, but also very
well played by Robert Russell, who live thirty six through
two thousand and eight. His other credits include Sitting Target
from seventy two, and he was on episodes of both
Blake seven and Doctor Who. I also should note I
was looking at this this actor and it's like, oh man,
he's six' three at least he's built as, such And

(36:31):
Vincent price is taller than, him towering over him in
these SCENES i had to look AT i had to
be reminded That Vincent price was six.' four so a towering. Duo.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
HERE interesting i did Not clock russell as.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
Especially, TALL yeah i mean he's a he's a kind
of a it's got like a, wrestler's physique, you know
kind of like he's, he's tall but also, you know
like broad in a very. Intimidating, way yeah he's more
also a physical Scrapper. Than hopkins's, Yeah movie hopkins likes
to stand back and order other people to do the,

(37:04):
dirty Work but stern likes to get in there with his. Own.
Hands yeah, all right let's talk a little bit about
the good, guys here the good guys and, the victims because,
let's see first, of all We Have ian Ogilvie Playing.
Richard marshall this Is our commonwealth soldier and ultimately our
key revenger active in. The picture ogilvie was born nineteen

(37:27):
forty three and as of this recording is Still around
british actor WHO'S been i think he's. Still active has
been active since fifty eight and he appeared in all
Three of reeves's, Feature Films So, she Beasts, the sorcerers
And Witch. Finder general he's worked a lot over the
eight decades he's. Been active his later credits Included Seventies,
wuthering heights the Seventy four amicus horror Anthology from Beyond,

(37:51):
the grave seventy four Is The, gathering storm seventy SIX Is,
i claudius and Let's see old nineteen ninety two's death
becomes her And puppet.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Master, five Oh puppet. Master five there. You go, that's
why that's where.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
It, culminates, yeah yeah but solid lead. Performance HERE and
i should also point out my wife watched this one,
with me and she pointed out that She, thought ogilvy
or at least the person that we see Riding, as
ogilvy is a. Good horseman and the Same With. Vincent
Price vincent price or whoever was standing in for him
on horseback was a pretty.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Good, rider yeah horseback action is important in.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
This, movie yeah there's a lot. Of, it again it's
Like a western in.

Speaker 3 (38:28):
That, regard yeah now this is a movie that really
is more about its villains than about. Its HEROES but
i like our. HEROES here i Like The ian Oglevie,
as RICHARD and I Like hillary Dwyer. As sarah like
they've got, a nice, wholesome energy and we're going to
see their lives destroyed by these horrible.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Witch.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Hunters.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah Yeah hillary dwyer as she's credited later On Became,
hillary heath and that's how you'll find her listed in.
The databases but she lived nineteen forty five through. Twenty
twenty british actress active in front of the camera from
sixty five through, seventy six during which she Appeared Alongside
timothy dalton in Nineteen Seventies. Worthering, heights, this However witch

(39:11):
finder was her first feature. Film role she also appeared
in Sixty Nine's The oblong box in Nineteen seventies cry Of.
The bansheet she later Won A Cable ace award for
the nineteen eighty Eight Series The, worst witch on which
she served as, a producer and she was active as
a producer from eighty three through. Twenty fourteen mother of
composer and Record Producer, daniel heath who has frequently Worked

(39:35):
with Lena, del ray who we actually mentioned In Our
dog Days of summer series that We're doing unstuffed to blow.
YOUR mind i think just the.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
Other, episode, yeah okay we got some other. Good characters
we have The character, sarah's uncle, the priest Played Named,
john lowe is Played By.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Rupert davies, That's right davies, livelet's say nineteen sixteen through nineteen,
Seventy six british character actor whose other credits include fifty
Five's quator, mass two Sixty Five's the Spy Who came
in From, the cold Sixty eight's dracula has risen from
the grave or is it? HIS grave i can't remember
the man of the title wrong in my notes here.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
Sixty eight from somebody. Else's grave he.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Rises from, a grave, that is he's certainly authorized to.
Be there i'm Not. Questioning Dracula non and then also
sixty Nine's The. Oblong box. Let's, see oh we have
some other other soldier characters in, the mix And So
ian Ogleby's Character, richard marshall his kind of like best

(40:38):
bud in, the Ranks Is, trooper swallow and he's Played By,
nicki hinson who of nineteen forty five through Twenty nineteen
british actor with a long Career in british FILM. And
tv his Credits. And cluelessee he was in two thousand And.
Five syriana he was in three Episodes Of downton abbey
as well as episodes Of. East enders but we previously

(40:58):
talked about him on the show because he played the
lead biker in nineteen Seventy. Three psychomania.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
AMAZING catch i didn't notice this, at ALL though i
did notice his soldier friend.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
Looked, familiar YES when i that Guy, FROM yeah i
didn't make the CONNECTION till i was putting the. Notes together,
i'm like oh, my god it's the Guy. From psychomania
he's the Biker. Lich king and an even crazier weird
connection for, us anyway IS that i started pulling up
images of Him from PSYCHOMANIA and i realized there's this
redheaded biker Dude in psychomania played by, This Actor. Dennis

(41:33):
gilmour and he also played one of the coven Members
In the Blood On. Satan's claw so.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
He's the redheaded kid who He tells Fibbs In. Sunday
school and then you start with that and then it
ends up.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
With. Murder, Yeah yeah so a lot of connections Between
these british genre films at, this point at, this period this.
Next one i'm only mentioning because sometimes you just got
to mention a unique name in. The cast i'm talking About,
alf joint who lived nineteen twenty seven through two thousand.
And five he plays a century. In this he was

(42:06):
primarily a stunt man who worked on such films as Eighty,
one's outland Eighty Five's, life force and he pops up,
in small, you know little background roles and stuff like
Sixty four's goldfinger in nineteen seventy One's A. CLOCKWORK orange.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
I didn't clock Who alf.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
JOINT was i kept seeing the name and, the Credits and, i'm, like,
oh man alf, joined nice, all.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
Right that's a good name. To have when you're like
a list of, you know casting resumes in, The pile,
it's like we got to Give alf joint, to collback Contact.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
ALF joint i Want alf joint. For this And What's
dick warlock? Up TO can I? Get? Warlock yeah let's
see a girl. At bar this is just one of the,
supporting characters just hanging Out with stern and his goons
at one point Played By, margaret nolan who lived nineteen
forty three through Twenty twenty english model, and actress notable

(42:58):
for playing the Massage therapist bank in nineteen Sixty. Four's
goldfinger so not the one who gets painted gold, to
death that Was, surely eden but the Other.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
One, OKAY yeah i don't remember who.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
She, WAS anyway a small, CONNECTION there i had to.
Point out and then we were talking about this, Actor Earlier,
patrick wymark So veteran british actor of nineteen twenty six
through nineteen seventy who played the Judge In the Blood On,
satan's claw the guy with the sword we were. Talking
about He plays cromwell In this cromwell pops up for

(43:33):
like one scene laid in, the Picture And patrick wymark
is playing.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
IT now i thought it was an interesting choice To
put cromwell actually in. The, movie ultimately he's the general
Who the parliamentarians are fighting under at this point in
the historically In The English, civil war so he's historically
significant for, the setting but actually having him appear in
person for a scene was an, interesting choice ESPECIALLY because

(44:01):
i don't know if you felt any differently the movie,
to me did not really seem interested In characterizing cromwell
one way or. The, other like he does not come
off as especially noble, or heroic nor does he really
come off. As villainous he's just kind of he's. About
business he's trying to win.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
The, war yeah that was the same VIBE that. I got,
AND yeah i. WAS curious i, WAS like i knew
he was going to. SHOW up i Knew That patrick
weimark was going To play cromwell in this and then
when he does, Show, up yeah he's like, you said,
he said He's, Business cromwell he's just he's just he's
focused on. Other things and all of the real villainous
energy of the film is taking place just kind of in,

(44:39):
you know far beneath him in. The, ranks yes you,
could say, you know he has no really direct role
in it one way or.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
The other he has not authorized The witch hunters in,
the movie though again they're gonna they're gonna be claiming
that their authority Comes. From parliament in reality it.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Does, not yeah so it's a. Small scene whymark's they
give him the signature Moles. OF cromwell, I noticed so
there's some special effects makeup to. Transform him, but yeah
he's really good and he's Great in Blood On. Satan's
claw he was. An actor he was an actor Of The,
british STAGE with tv credits going back to the. Mid

(45:16):
fifties FIRST non tv film was Nineteen Sixty the League,
of gentlemen as Well As The Concrete Jungle let's see
in nineteen sixty three at his supporting Role In Disney's
doctor sin alias Alias. The scarecrow sorry this Was a patrick,
McGowan Film And. Let's see he also had a supporting
role in sixty Four as children Of. The damned he

(45:38):
played the Landlord In Roman polanski's repulsion in, sixty five
and also appeared the same Year Alongside peter Cushing And
christopher Lee In the skull that was Directed By, freddie
francis and then he Starred In freddy francis's nineteen Sixty
six Amicus Thriller. The psychopath some might also might remember

(45:59):
him From The The Rather deep Cast For Where eagles
dare from, sixty eight the Wartime thriller you never seen.
That one. It's good THAT'S one i remember watching as
a kid who CAME on tbs all. The, time yea, but,
yeah yeah. Great actor i'd love to see him in.
More things Blood On satan's claw was his, penultimate film by.

(46:21):
The way he just did one other film after that
and then.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
Passed away wait did you say he's in? ANOTHER movie
i see in the notes he was in another Movie About,
oliver cromwell but he did Not Play. Oliver cromwell.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
That's, right yeah he has a supporting role in the
really stacked Cast To ken hughes nineteen seventy Historical, attic
Cromwell which i've seen that ages and. AGES ago, i think,
you KNOW when i was maybe like junior high. Or
Younger But richard Harris plays cromwell. IN that i don't
remember if they put the Moles On richard harris's face, for,

(46:57):
THAT though i. Don't know they're more accurate.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
This, picture now one element of this MOVIE that i
think is very strong is. The score and actually there
FROM what, i recall there's kind of sparing use, Of
music like a lot of scenes are just silent, environmental
sounds but when the music, COMES in i think, it's
strong kind of rousing, music THAT like, i said has
some elements Of like western and other elements Of like english. Folk, tunes,

(47:25):
yeah yeah it's a.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Solid score and the composer Here Is, paul ferris who
of nineteen forty one through nineteen. Ninety five his other
Scores Include the sorcerers and also Sixty Eight's The Blood,
beast terror as well as seventy Three Is The. Creeping
flesh That's A lee cushing outing that had some cool elements,
to it but also wallows and, some unpleasantness so it's not.

(47:48):
My Favorite but ferris also has a cameo in. THIS
film i did not notice, it myself but he does
show up at some point under the Name Of morris
jar playing a Character. Named, paul.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Okay are you ready to talk about?

Speaker 2 (48:11):
The plot let's. Do.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
It okay i'm not going to do as close a
scene by scene narration with this MOVIE as i do
for some of. The movies i'm going to talk in
a little more of a, summary way and maybe we
can make some observations about the themes and stylistic choices as.
We go but, so again the movie is Set In
east anglia in sixteen. Forty five this is going to

(48:32):
be at the height Of The English, civil war and
in this war you have the supporters of, the monarchy
the royalists called cavaliers by. Their enemies and then on
the other side you have the parliamentarians called roundheads by.
Their enemies and our main good characters are a young
couple who are very much in love from a Place

(48:53):
called Brandiston. And suffolk and these are these Characters Are,
sarah lowe's the niece of the kindly Village Priest, john
Lowe's And, richard marshall a MAN who i think does
not come. From money he's a young roundhead soldier who
has been serving in the, parliamentarian army but he's coming
home for a brief leave to see His. Beloved sarah

(49:17):
and then meanwhile you've got our, primary villains and They
Are matthew Hopkins And, john stern two men who travel
from village to village amidst the chaos, of war hunting
alleged witches under fake, parliamentary credentials charging fees and accommodations from,
local leaders and satisfying their sadism and their perverted desires as.

(49:42):
They go and to give himself the impromoter, Of government
hopkins styles himself The Witch. Finder general so their reputation
precedes them and as you, Noted, earlier rob they are
often summoned by, local leaders not just arriving out. OF
nowhere i think there is a nasty synergy going on

(50:03):
because they have found a they have found a grift
that is. In, DEMAND actually i think there's a lot
of fear, and confusion and they have found a way
to take advantage of that fear and confusion in a
way that. Excites people, they're, like yeah maybe these witch
hunters can come set our, lives right can come.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Bring, order yeah because every town is going to have
it's beset by chaos. And confusion they're going to be
marginalized members of. The community there are going to be
these these vendettas. And attitudes there are going to be
local people that are themselves bloodthirsty and just need that
excuse in order to act. Upon it and that's where

(50:43):
these guys. Come.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
In yeah so when these guys arrive at, a village
their imo seems to be that they will target either
locals who are despised for some reason, by somebody and
this can be like outcasts or, religious dissenters or minority
or any kind Of, OTHER also, i, think yeah people

(51:04):
who the local leaders are already mad at for, some
reason or it also seems just. Random women so there's
a lot of just ambient misogyny at play in how they're.
Targeting people once they apprehend, their suspects they basically assume
guilt until innocence, is proven which and it, never is

(51:25):
except maybe in. Some cases as a reward for submitting
to financial or, sexual extortion they demand that the. Guilty
confess they subject their victims to various tests to detect evidence,
of witchcraft and these tests include what they call pricking
to find the. Devil's mark so they will stab the

(51:48):
victim with a needle or like a, thin blade reasoning
that they say the devil gives his servants a patch
of skin that is supernaturally protected and does not bleed,
when pierced so when they keep they'll be piercing people on,
the back and they just keep, piercing them and when
all the, wounds bleed, They, say wow the devil is

(52:08):
hidden his mark. Very well we'll have to search. Even
harder another test is the, swimming test where the victim is,
tied up their hands and feet, are bound and then
they are thrown or lowered into water and the, reasoning
goes if they sink to, the bottom That was god
showing them to. Be innocent if they float, or swim

(52:31):
this is the water rejecting them and proof that they. Are,
guilty now this is. So stupid it has been parodied a.
Million times you've probably seen versions.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
Of This In mony python And The holy, grid Exactly The.

Speaker 3 (52:44):
Monty python but the crazy thing is tests like these
were really used in a lot of historical, witch trials
including by The historical Hopkins. And stern sinking in this
test the innocence condition sometimes led to death by drowning
if the accused was not pulled up out of the water.
Soon enough and that outcome is depicted in.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
This, movie yeah and this movie plays it straight and
it's it's. It's, Horrifying yeah so it DOES nicely i
think counterbalance the scenes depicting the sort of thing that
you find in, other Movies including Blood On, satan's clock
where it's it's, employed there but it's kind of employed
as like the one main comedic scene in the. Entire.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Picture yeah and when you say it's played straight in,
THE movie i would say that a lot of the
violence in the movie is made more horrifying by the
way that. It is it is treated very flatly by
the camera and by like it's often without cinematic flourishes

(53:47):
that might accompany violence in. Other movies that actually makes
it feel even more just kind of ugly and sad.
And bad the way that it's just matter of, fact
photography and also the way the actors play it is
just KIND of i, don't Know like i'm half heartedly
doing this thing that's maybe killing. A, person, yeah. Yeah,

(54:07):
yeah also so in, The movie Hopkins and stern appear
to have a slightly nuanced relationship to the idea of
just direct beating and torture to. Extract confessions stern. Loves
it he does it. For fun he loves beating people.
And torturing hopkins like formally publicly, condemns TORTURE and i

(54:30):
think in some scenes Even to stern, says like, YOU
know i, Don't torture we don't. Do that but also
he's fully Aware that stern, does it and he doesn't
make a serious attempt to, stop him and other times
is fully encouraging.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Of.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
It yeah so it's just like there is a hypocrisy
in the Way that hopkins presents himself to have this
public facing air.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Of.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
Civility yeah so eventually their Method goes after all these
tests and all, The torture Hopkins in stern inevitably, determined
yes all of the accused are either guilty or they've
been killed by the tests that proved. Their innocence now
it's time to. Execute them and initially in the movie
this is done, by hanging but later on in, The

(55:15):
film hopkins seems to be searching about for execution methods
that are even more cruel. And barbarous it's like the
hangings no longer give him the kick that. He craves
he needs something. More extreme so later in the film
we get him experimenting with these horrific mechanisms for execution.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
By. Burning YEAH and i think historically and, in general
accused whiches were not Burned. In england they, were hung
which is plenty disturbing in and. Of itself and while
judicial torture was, illegal again things like thumbscrews or the
rack or whatever you happen to have to come to.
Mind here even though there were methods that were, certainly

(55:57):
illegal witch finders had loopholes like those depicted in the
film like we've been talking about things that seem more, Vested, in, like,
oh well this is, An experimentation like this is how
you tell if they're. A witch we're, not actually, you know.
Torturing somebody but it's of course. It's, torture.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
YEAH exactly I, mean hopkins the Real historical hopkins wrote
a Book Called the Discovery of witches in which he
detailed these methods for figuring out how whether or not
somebody was. A witch, and, so yeah they're stabbing stuff while.
Obviously torture he, was, like no that's, not torture, that's
investigation that's getting the information.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
We.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
Need yeah so at the beginning of, the story we
Meet Young richard marshall out riding with a Group of
roundhead soldiers under the command of a Man Named, captain
gordon and while they stop for arrest in, the forest
they are ambushed by, cavalier snipers and this leads to
a skirmish Where the roundheads chase the enemy into the

(56:55):
woods and. Defeat them and then at the end of,
this Fight young richard proves his capability by shooting a
cavalier who was sneaking up behind. His captain so here
are we kind Of like richard seems to be coming
up in. The ranks he's being recognized for his for
his bravery and daring do.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
In.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Battle uh and, After this richard is given leave to
ride back to his Hometown, of Brandiston Where, sarah lows
the woman, he loves is waiting. For him sarah lives with,
her uncle the, Village Priest, john lowe's and you can
Tell that richard really is in Love with sarah because
he's talking about her all the time to his army

(57:33):
buddies when, he's away despite them totally mocking him. For
it it's very much like you like. A girl, i mean,
not really.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
But there's there's. A, bit, yeah yeah like he's he's he's. Clearly.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
Smitten Yeah so Richard and sarah when he, gets back
they have a passionate Reunion and Richard Asks uncle john
for his permission To. Marry sarah john not only grants,
the permission he wants it to. Happen fast what he
wants Is for Richard and sarah to marry and leave the,
village Immediately because john has a sense that danger. IS

(58:12):
imminent i don't know exactly what. He worries it's from
whether from the war or from the witch hunters. Or
both but he Thinks that sarah needs to be away
from Here, AND john i think in this part he
mentions that He and sarah are hated by some of
the villagers who call them papists and accuse them of
sympathy With the. King's forces and this is. Parliamentary territory

(58:36):
so before they, Can marry richard has to return to
the army and. Finish, serving now this is somewhat portrayed
as kind of up, to him like he, has to,
you know he, has ambitions and he doesn't have much
money or anything that he can bring to, their union
but maybe he has chances for advancement in. The army
though also they make clear that in this world desertion

(58:59):
is punishable, by, yeah YEAH so i think he sort
of has to. Go back but on the Night that
richard leaves the village, on horseback he crosses paths with
a group of men who are waiting to meet to
meet some people who are on, the road and then
eventually he crosses paths with the two men that those
guys are, waiting for the, witch Hunters with Stern. And

(59:20):
hopkins they ask him for directions to, the village and
he supplies them unaware of what is about. To happen
and so this is the first scene where we get
a Picture of Stern and hopkins and. THEIR relationship i
don't know any thoughts you have about their relationship when
we first. Meet them one just THING that i noticed

(59:41):
immediately is they're not. Buddy buddy they're somewhat hostile to,
each other but they need each other to keep this,
thing going so they tolerate.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
Each. Other yeah it reminds me a little bit of
the dynamic in The book dune With the baron And
His twisted men tat Pyder, to vere's where where you
know that they they are, not friends they hate, each
other but need, each other and there's a there's always
a sense of danger there and we see that play

(01:00:12):
that that certainly plays out in. This. Film.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Yeah uh and and they have their differences. In temperament
as we. Discussed earlier stern is more, openly vicious this
wolf like kind, of Figure whereas hopkins is just, as
cruel just, as evil but hides it behind this veneer
of dignity. And respectability and like there's this moment where
He admonishes stern not to call him by his. First,
name yeah you don't Call. Me matthew So when Hopkins

(01:00:39):
and stern Arrive, in brandiston they set about their. Horrible
work They Target john lowe's. Among others they go to,
his home they subject him to bloody prickings like we,
described earlier and to other bizarre tests like making him
run laps around his dining room table after having been
stabbed all, these times and they. Demand, Confession eventually sarah

(01:01:02):
is able to save her uncle from immediate death by
submitting to, sexual Extortion so hopkins says he'll come to
her room at night to be shown special evidence that
will assure Him of. John's innocence so because, of this
instead Of sending john straight through the torture and, Execution
process Hopkins orders john confined to a cell and. Left,

(01:01:24):
Alone meanwhile stern just acts out his sadistic process on
the other, suspected witches and then every night he drinks
and carouses in. The tavern So eventually stern becomes aware
Of what hopkins is Doing, to sarah And when hopkins
leaves one day to visit a, Nearby village stern attacks And.

(01:01:46):
Rapes Sarah after hopkins returns and finds out. What happened
he seems to just kind of decide he's done with,
this place so He betrays sarah and then has her
uncle tortured and executed along with the, other women And
then Hopkins and stern.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Leave, town yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
Absolutely, Brutal yeah and it's in, this section by, the
way that we get like the depiction of the, swimming test,
you know or they're like throwing the people into the
water with the ropes. Around them So eventually, richard returns
only To discover. Sarah traumatized he learns, what happened and
he swears revenge Against both Hopkins. And stern and then,

(01:02:27):
After this Sarah and richard are married in secret in
a chapel that is desecrated with graffiti it says witch on,
the walls with no priest or. Efficient present it seems
like a kind of thematically, significant moment like the wedding
that they have is on no one's authority but. Their
Own like richard just holds a sword up in the

(01:02:49):
air like this is.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
My, Priest, yeah YEAH because i mean that seems to
be how things work now in. The world everything's torn
apart by this war, and yeah this is how the
witch are. Are operating THIS is i guess how weddings
are going to. Work too you just you just.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
Do, It Yeah so sarah goes to the nearby Village
of lavianum to Hide until richard can finish his mission
mission of REVENGE and i guess also his work with
the army and then come back. To her so she's
going into. Hiding nearby so This. Is richard he's on the. Revenge, rails, now, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Yeah this is the point where it definitely becomes clear
that this is a. Revenge movie and, In general i'd
say that revenge movies are often my one of my least,
favorite subgenres in part because of the like the the,
structure is it's very much on. The rails you generally
know how revenge film is going. To go and it's
also it's going to be, pretty dark like it's either
gonna even if it has a, happy ending that ending

(01:03:46):
is just murders and in a lot of cases it's
going to be a more realistic dig two graves sort
of a situation, where vengeance murderous vengeance is is, pulled
off but like nothing's really everyone's. Just dirty by. The
exercise but that, BEING said i have to acknowledge that
it is a solid structure for. A film those are

(01:04:07):
some solid storytelling rails to, be on and the movie
does really pick up its pace when it becomes clear
that it's fully a. Revenge film and there's also that, incentive,
that oh this is a, revenge film we Might see
Hopkins and stern actually get.

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
Their, comeuppance yeah which is not feel good in the
end of, the movie but is somewhat satisfying just because
of how disgusting and awful the. Villains, ARE unfortunately i
think there was not any such justice in the real.
HISTORICAL case I think hopkins just died.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
At, HOME yeah i think it's suspected that he died
of tuberculosis or something, like that as opposed to any
sort of more fitting. Come uppance and certainly they are
legends that. Suggest that but, you know it's the way of.
The world sometimes the villains do not get what's coming,
to them but in.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
The movie they, they will even though it's not exactly a.
Happy ending so all through the middle of, THE movie
i wanted to, point out did you notice this recurring
theme of the roundheads needing horses they're just like very

(01:05:21):
like we need we need to get, more horses we
need to protect. Our horses they're just like very. Into.
Horses uh and at one point this becomes significant for
the plot because a Troop of roundhead Soldiers stop Hopkins
and stern on their way to the. Next village, they,
say hey we. Need horses we're gonna buy. Your horses
hopkins tries, to say we're, not selling but the, soldier

(01:05:44):
says you. Are selling and this scene felt very much
to me like something out Of, a western these classic western.
Standoff movies and this leads into a fight and both
where Sterns and Stern and hopkins. Become Separated so hopkins
bolts on horseback and he. Gets away stern is, initially

(01:06:04):
caught but then manages to kill his captor and he escapes.
As well and then in a, LOCAL pub i Think
somehow richard happens to cross Paths, with, stern right he
just comes into the pub and, he's There and richard
tries to, kill Him but stern they Fight and stern,
escapes again so eventually he reunites Uneasily with hopkins and

(01:06:25):
tells him that this soldier is looking. For them so
they Know That riches richard is coming. For. Revenge.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Yeah yeah initially, it's like You think stern is maybe
there To kill hopkins for, abandoning him and certainly accuses him,
of Such and hopkins pulls a gun, on Him but
hopkins is able to convince him, it's like, come on
let's get back. To, business, then yeah that's what.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
They do so they move on to the, next village
which is uh Oh lavin um that they they're going
there and we remember way the audience remembered That's where
sarah went to, hide Out and hopkins decides he wants
to experiment with new, execution methods so this is where
he comes up with this horrible contraption where they're going

(01:07:07):
to use a ladder and ropes to lower victims face
first into a. Giant, fire meanwhile there's some army business
in the middle of. The movie richard has to report
back to, his unit and while, doing so he gets,
a promotion and then he is tasked by none Other
than cromwell himself with leading a scouting PARTY to i

(01:07:30):
think find and Capture the king is the idea that
the king is trying to escape the country in secret
and they think he might be in one of the towns.

Speaker 2 (01:07:37):
Around, there yeah so they need to try and intercept
him and apprehend him and bring. Him. Back.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
Yeah, yeah anyway while out on, This mission richard and
his trooper friends find out that the witch hunters Are,
in Lavenum where sarah went to, hide out so they go,
in pursuit but it turns Out that Hopkins and stern
have set a trap, for them And when, Richard arrives
hopkins has a local man Accused both Richard and sarah of.

(01:08:02):
Being witches what does? He say, he's, LIKE yes i
saw them with. Their familiars and so they're taken away
to a dungeon in a nearby castle to be tortured
and interrogated via the methods we. Saw earlier so while they're,
being tormented they're getting the pricks with the knife in
The back sarah Is while richard is being forced. To,

(01:08:23):
Watch meanwhile richard's men figure out where they are and
they're on. The way they're on, the run coming to,
the rescue and this leads to, a bloody violent conclusion
In which sarah is subjected to these pricks of the
blade on. Her back to Find The. Devil's mark richard
eventually breaks free and He fights stern and kills him

(01:08:44):
by stomping through. His eye it's like a boot spur
that goes into his.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
EYE socket i, guess SO because i was like, AT
first i, was like is that a heel that he
killed him with? The heel, but yeah the spur makes
a lot. More.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
Sense yeah And then richard picks up an axe And,
attacks hopkins and we just it's just, on screen brutal
hacking at him over and over with an axe that
goes on and On until, richard's friends, the soldiers they
finally fight their way through. The guards they break into
the room and one of them shoots the Gruesomely. Wounded hopkins, this,

(01:09:18):
shooting Though, enrages richard who starts screaming you took him
from me over, and Over and sarah's screams of pain
and trauma fill the air as we go to. The
CREDITS so i, was, thinking man how bad is? This,
ending like in, a, way there it is in some
ways a victorious ending for our two, main characters because
at least they actually do survive and the villains. Are

(01:09:42):
punished both of the two villains these horrible villains, are
killed but the two good characters both seem extremely psychologically
damaged by the events of, the movie maybe both having
been driven. To, madness yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
And the film doesn't give us even just a, you.
KNOW glot, I mean i don't think that the ending
necessarily is trying to tell us that there's no hope
for these two. Or anything but we're left to imagine
that on. Our own we're not given a hint of
what that might look like or and.

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
So, forth yeah so it's ambiguous in. THAT regard i
was thinking about the violence of the ending and the
way that like the revenge, is achieved but also it
at the same time somehow feels thwarted and it's not like,
a happy, Satisfying ENDING and i was kind of pairing
that with the thing we talked about earlier about how

(01:10:34):
a lot of the violence in the movie is shot
and presented in a, very undramatic. Uncinematic Way and i'm
just trying to put all this together and it and
figure out what the movie is trying to say about
violence with all. THESE choices i kind of get that

(01:10:54):
the point is to emphasize the pointlessness of the violence in,
the movie that it's just something that's happening for no
good reason. At all. Like that there there's, you know
In what Stern and, hopkins do it's almost like by,
you know putting in more music and photographing it in

(01:11:15):
a more emotionally, charged way it might be kind of valorizing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
It, somehow yeah or if they'd like really stylize the
gore in a way where they were doing some sort of,
you know unrealistic but maybe more horror movie cinematic torture,
techniques instead like in, many scenes It's just stern like
just slapping people around while they're, in chains and it's
it's not even for like a real. GORE hound i

(01:11:41):
don't think they're going to find. This visually they're not
going to find it visually pleasing because it's just base
in its depiction.

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
Of, violence yeah there's another THING that i wanted to
point OUT which i thought was, really interesting and that
is the contrast between the contents of the story and
the esthetics of. The Setting so i'd say this is
very different Than Like corman's, poe movies where the setting

(01:12:10):
and landscape is bleak and gloomy in a way that
reflects the morbid, subject matter whereas here the horror of
the plot and the wickedness unleashed by the villains is
strongly contrasted by the beauty we see all. Around us
there's all these shots of, this green beautiful countryside and these.

(01:12:32):
IDYLLIC towns, i mean it's just like full of gorgeous
locations that seem peaceful and serene and easy on. The
EYE and i think this is an interesting and. Significant
choice it's a movie, about, sadism, misogyny cruelty, and revenge
but the world it takes place in is. So lush,

(01:12:54):
it's like, you know this breath of clean. Country AIR
and i was just trying to think about what this
to how the violence in the movie. IS received i
think one thing you could say is that maybe it
highlights how it's not just that the world.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
Is bad.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
You know sometimes you get these these gloomy movies with a,
you know sympathetic weather or landscape pattern that reflects the
evil in, the plot and that's just like a pessimistic
read on life and on. The world and that's not
what's going on here, very much very much in, This
movie like the world, is good and there's a lot,

(01:13:32):
of wholesome beautiful stuff in it that's worth. Fighting for
there's love and kindness and beautiful, green fields but it
can all just be destroyed, by stupid pointless of violence
and hatred from Predators like Hopkins.

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
And, stern, yeah like the world does not need to be,
this way and you can look out your window and.
See why, whereas yeah and these, other films, it's, like yeah.
It's gloomy it's a dark and. Stormy night, of course
things are playing out like a. Horror movie but, you, know,
yeah yeah this is a.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
GREAT point i think there's another way you could interpret.
It Too maybe i'm not sure which one makes more sense,
To me but the other way is something about like
like how the appearance of beauty or civility can conceal
the signs, of barbarism like in the Way that hopkins
presents himself publicly as civilized, and humane and then of

(01:14:24):
course behind the scenes we know what He's. ACTUALLY like
i wonder if that has something to do with like
all these beautiful landscapes, we see but then when we
figure out what's going on, in them.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
It's, horrible, Yeah yeah and there's probably another way That
that i'm assuming here might read particularly for The local,
british audience, you know like because these ideas of like
What what britain, looks like What the english countryside, Looks
LIKE and i can only imagine that sort of plays
into it, as well, you know the sort of like

(01:14:54):
local expectations of.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
Regional, Geography yeah saurn is operating within.

Speaker 2 (01:15:01):
The shire yeah there.

Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
You, GO yeah i Guess sorrow man actually does.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
Go.

Speaker 3 (01:15:05):
There, yeah, OKAY well i guess That's all i've got
for now On Witch. Finder general do anything else you
wanted to talk about before we wrap?

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
It?

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
UP no i think, we covered, you know in, broad
strokes the really important. Themes here but, but yeah it's
very interesting to consider this film's role in sort of
laying the Groundwork For English full car as we've come to,
understand it and then that sort of laying the Groundwork

(01:15:37):
For full car. In general but, but yeah it is
also still a film that, very much, you know exists on,
its own, and yeah it's interesting to think about it As,
a western interesting to think about what it is saying
about about violence and chaotic times and oppression and misogyny
in violent. Chaotic times, So yeah I'm glad i'm glad

(01:15:58):
we ended up pivoting to, this one and it was
is always great To See vincent price in a really.
Commanding performance and yet again it's, you know a slightly
different cocktail of. Elements here it's as different from from
any of The Other vincent price performances we've talked about on. The.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):
Show totally he's very good. In it but don't pick
this movie for Your Fun vincent price.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
Movie.

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
Night there go with one Of The doctor fibes Movies
or Theater of blood or something, like that, You Know
wax museum or is that what, it's called wax are
one of his Wax.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
Movie, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:33):
This one this is Not Fun. Times price this is
this Is Bad. Times price but he's he excels at this.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
As well, all, right well we're gonna go ahead and
close out this Episode Of Weird, house cinema but we'd
love to hear from everyone out there if you have
any thoughts On Which finder General And vincent price or
some of the themes we discussed here. Right in we'd
love to hear. From, you likewise, you know if we
want to discuss the The The unholy Trinity of english

(01:17:00):
folk car in general open to discussions of those films.
As well let's see a reminder to everyone, out there,
let's see if you've Listened to Stuff to Blow, your
mind you know That the Stuff to Blow your mind
feed is mostly built around our core Episodes on Tuesdays
and thursdays those are science and. Culture episodes But on
fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about,
a film a weird film or a, you know noteworthy

(01:17:22):
of genre films such As Wich Finder general and if
you go to letterbox, dot com look, us up We Are. Weird.
House there we have a nice list of all the
movies we've covered, thus far sometimes the peak ahead at what,
comes next and there are all sorts of interesting ways
you can tweak that list to look at view it in,
different ways, you know focusing on different decades or even.
Different performers so it's a lot. Of fun. Let's, see

(01:17:44):
finally i'd Say that Stuff to Blow your mind we've
been around for and for years. And Years Weird house
cinema has been around for years at, this point mostly
as an, audio podcast so most of what we've done
you can find wherever you get your. Audio Podcasts but,
more recently we started putting out these video Podcasts, On
netflix so if you want to watch us as we

(01:18:04):
interact with, each other go Over to netflix and look
Us up Stuff To Blow. Your mind if you're watching Us,
on netflix give us a couple of, thumbs up ask
to be reminded about, new episodes, and likewise if you're
listening to the audio, podcast somewhere give us some. Stars
subscribe all of these are levers you can pull that
help us out in the.

Speaker 3 (01:18:22):
Long run huge thanks as always to our excellent AUDIO Producer.
Jj posway if you would like to get in touch
with us with feedback on this episode or, any other
to suggest a topic for, the future or just to,
say hello you can email us at contact Stuff to
Blow your mind.

Speaker 1 (01:18:37):
Dot com Stuff To Blow your mind is Production. Of
iHeartRadio for more podcasts From My, heart radio Visit the,
iHeartRadio App, apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your.
Favorite shows