March 13, 2026 • 28 mins
Tracy talks about the mixed bag nature of Elizabeth Bisland, and the hosts talk about their own travel experiences. Holly shares the less-than-noble character trait that she shares with Flaubert.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson
and I'm Holly Frye. This week we talked about Elizabeth
Bisland and her trip around the world and her whole
career as a journalist outside of that trip. I didn't
(00:25):
spell it out in the episode, but I kept calling
her Bisland after she got married because that was the
professional name that she continued to use for the whole
rest of her life, and it seemed kind of weird
to jump back and forth.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I also called Lafcadio.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Hearne Herne the whole time, even though his name changed,
because he only made that brief appearance at the beginning
and the end. Because since he only made a very
brief appearance at the beginning and the end, it seemed
potentially confusing to change what name I was using for
him and then also talk about his wife, who was
(01:02):
using the same family name. If we do an episode
on him at some point, that may proceed differently in
that full length episode.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, he's a wild one. Yeah, he's like one that's
been on my list for a while, and I look
at it, and I go later for you maybe maybe, yeah,
we'll see. Trying to narrow down how much of him
to talk about in this was a little tricky because
I can't like, it's clear that they they were important
to one another and that they were in touch with
(01:34):
each other for their whole his whole life after they met.
But I didn't want that episode to become too focused
on him because the episode was not really about him, right,
And then every time I learned a new thing about him,
I was like, man, he's so fascinating. Also kind of
a mess and fascinating, a fascinating mess similarly in some
(01:57):
ways kind of a mess or a mixed bag.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Maybe Elizabeth Bislind, Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I would read some things from her and go wow,
that's really lovely, and other things and go wow, yikes,
that was girl?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
What offensive?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
And then some stuff where it's like I wish I
could figure out more of your specific opinions on things
just because of you know, when and where you lived
and where your upbringing. Was like, yeah, you know, the
people of history have all kinds of different feelings, but
it is just it's nice to know, Yeah, when you're
talking about people, do you know what I've been thinking
about lately in regard to that, what is how easy
(02:38):
it is to forget? This is gonna sound so stupid,
and to me it seems so profound in the moment
I thought it, how easy it is to forget that
like any of these people we talk about historically, particularly
like in the twentieth century, that have a dicey mix
of like some of your concepts and your worldview is
great and some of.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It is not cool at all?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Is how much less information they had at their fingertips
at any given time, Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
To what we have.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So their experiential learning would have left huge gaps that
they just couldn't quickly fill in the way we can
with like a rapid Internet search. And so it's made
me feel a little more graceful for figures like her
that maybe just don't know. I know, she went around
(03:28):
the world, but in many ways she wasn't worldly, you
know what I mean. Still sucks, her position still sucks
on a variety of things. But like I'm not as
much like monster as I am. Like, you just didn't
have the knowledge, You just didn't have it. Yeah, I
sometimes think about things that I didn't have the knowledge.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, about for sure.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Say, for yeah, having grown up in the nineteen seventies
and eighties, you know, and started college in nineteen ninety three,
what a different understanding so many things in the world
between then and now. Oh yes, radically different access to
information now versus then. Yeah, so yeah, I do find
(04:10):
her to be a mixed bag. But boy do I
love how crabby she was about going on this trip.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I get it. Had I had so much.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Empathy for her being called into her boss's office to
do with things she didn't want to do and to
start right now, and like, well, and a pretty heavy
hitting assign you know what I mean. Like, I love
to travel. I live in the modern age when I
always have kind of like a go bag ready in
case I have to travel last minute. But if you
(04:44):
told me right now you have to leave on an
around the world trip that's going to take you more
than two months and you got to leave in six hours,
I yeah, would shout an expletive at you. I would
lose it. Yeah, yeah, I lose it about smaller things
than that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, it's a big ass. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I read a couple of things that, you know, things
written by modern people and written in recent years, who
characterized her almost as ungracious about it, And I'm like,
she was being told to drop everything and go on
a trip that was going to be uncomfortable at best
(05:25):
and exhausting, Yeah, with no notice whatsoever like that.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, to be cranky.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
It's not like winning a luxury trip around the world.
It's hustling. You're not getting to enjoy any of those
cultures very much. Yeah, you're not really exploring. You're just
going from like trained to train to train to boat
to train to boat to train.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, no, thank you, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, as a person prone to sea sickness, I also
would have an added layer of how frustrating I would
find such an assignment given with no notice.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I really liked her early life experience of trying to
keep secret that she was writing poetry and that they
thought she was an old dude from England. Yeah, which
made me think a little bit of Edna Saint Vincent
Malay because oh yeah, she was not using a fake name,
but because Vincent was part of her name, people initially
(06:28):
thought she must be a mature man. And it just
tickles me in each case. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the number
of times that apparently people buy her writing thought that
she was a man amused me a little bit. And
the idea of suffering through something that it turned out
that you hated while churning the butter. Yeah, because George
(06:53):
Elliot said that it was the best thing. Listen, I
one hundred percent understand all of that. That is exactly
the kind of thing I would do where I'd be like, well,
this is these are two things that I feel like
I need to do. I'm going to combine them. Yeah,
that makes all the sense on earth to me. So
(07:13):
week I agree.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
There were a lot of moments in her story that
I was like, yep, I completely have empathy with that,
not all of them, obviously we already talked about that.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I love the idea of aside from the fact that
she thinks all men will be chivalrous, I love the
idea of early sort of like packing lists practical advice
for lady travelers.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, I do like that a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I was just so delighted by the descriptions of what
she thought would be good luggage and this newly developed
bureau trunk. I was like, Yeah, that would be really
handy if what you are traveling with is a big
old steamer trunk. Being able to open the top lid
and have that be drawers organized with all your small
(08:08):
items instead of having to have like a lot of
little interior boxes that you had to wrangle around for
your small items. Seems like it would be a lot
more convenient or just throwing your things into a trunk
and then having to pull them out and figure out
where everything was later on. Yeah, I had to look
up what a shawl strap was. Yeah, how exactly does
(08:28):
that work? It could just be you could just have
your shawl and it would be the strap that your
shawl was wrapped up in, so that you can sling
it over your shoulder, not have it to wear it
with you, but have it accessible when you got on
the train. All of those things. I do something similar
sometimes if I am taking a long trip and checking luggage,
(08:51):
I will often have in my purse or backpack that
I'm taking onto the airplane, I will have a change
of closed toothbrush, the deodorant, like basic things so that
just in case the checked luggage goes awry, I can
manage on what I put under the seat in front
(09:13):
of me. Do you remember on our first of you
misson history class trip, which was to Paris. The check
luggage going awrye for me, Am, I beloved no because
the first two and a half days we were in Paris,
Brian had nothing. I forgot this completely. Oh yeah, it
(09:35):
was like a little bit of a wild ride because
we had gotten to Charles de Gaul. Everyone from our
flight got to baggage claim. About half of them got
bags and rolled out, and the rest of us just
stood there for a long time. And then someone from
AYR France came over and was like, what are you doing?
(09:55):
We were like waiting on our bags and they're like
nuh uh. And it became this whole wacky brigamarole where
we were one of my bags had come out. At
that point I had two check bags, he had one
and my you know, mediocre French and this very kind
Air France woman like we were trying to work out
what was going on. The funniest part was when all
(10:19):
of our luggage that we usually travel with is the
American tourist line that came out years ago that looks
like droids from Star Wars.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So once I.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Showed her a picture, she was like, oh, like this
changed thing significantly, and she started calling departments around the
airport asking if they had seen R two D two
or C three PO because those are the two that
were missing. And at one point she talks to someone
and she makes a very excited face, hangs of the phone,
takes my hand and says, let's go, and we go
running to a different, completely different terminal, and shoved behind
(10:53):
a potted plant in a corner is my C three
PO bag.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
But Brian's R two D two ever shows up, And
I really think like some poor junior staff member overturned
one of their chain their little train of luggage trucks
and didn't know what to do and just hid things around.
Your phone, but his was not there, and we got
back to the we got to our hotel because she
was like, we're not going to find it today, go
(11:19):
to your hotel. Poor Brian had not packed anything in
his carrier like for overnight. Yeah, And so like those
first couple of days, we would get back to the
room and be like, did luggage show up? And they
had called our room at one point and said, we
found your luggage, were bringing it, but the number they
gave was the ticket that was on my C three
(11:40):
PO bag. We already had. Oh, and then we went
out one day and we did our tour and we
got home and it was that day and we asked
at the front desk and they were like no. But
then we got to our room and there was our
two D two like with light shining off of it
like it was a holy relic. And Brian hugged that
luggage for so long. So yeah, it's our story of
international not having your luggage.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
On our on our trip to Morocco last year, I
had a checked bag, but I also had like a
roller board to go in the bin above, and that
contained enough clothing that was all stuff that could be
like washed out in the sink and dry really quickly.
(12:24):
It had enough that I would be washing stuff in
the sink every day. But if the big checked bag
got lost, you'd be okay. I would be able to
make it through the trip because that trip we were
in a different place almost every day, Like there were
a couple of places that we spent two nights. Yeah,
if you're if a piece of luggage did not come
on our arrival to Morocco, odds of it catching up
(12:45):
to us were slim to none.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, so I had planned for the worst outcome of that,
and it was unnecessary. Everything was fine, did not need
it at all. I do a different thing in that scenario,
which is that I put everything I possibly can into
carry on. I do no checked bag going out m h,
(13:09):
but coming home, I'll check everything. Yeah, I checked everything
coming back. So I don't want to Yeah, don't want
to carry that Bizra and I did. I just laid
a piece of luggage while we were there. Yeah, because
on our last day we got additional treats that we
weren't expecting, like pieces of tari and I was like,
I've maxed out my luggage.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Now we have to yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Well I'm trying to imagine Elizabeth Bislin would have a
lot to say about all of these things.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
With our travel.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
We talked about Gustave Flaubert this week.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
We did.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I could swear that this came up briefly at some
point in another episode, but my so of the old
outlines yielded nothing, And I'm like, did I dream it?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
I like flow Bear a lot. The nice thing about
this one is that I had so many books already
on my shelf for the Russians that I was good.
Like I said, I was very fascinated by Madame Bowerie
when I read it in high school, so much so
that when I was in college, my high school English
teacher asked me to come back and do a guest
lecture on it to her then seniors. Okay, which was
(14:29):
super fun because I just like talking about it. I
like the questions you can raise about it, etc. One
of the things we didn't talk about in this episode
is how many other literary figures Gustav Flaubert knew right like,
he and George Soalnd were good friends, for example, and
(14:49):
there were many others, and I just didn't bring all
of them up because talking about other stuff sometimes.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
She got to edit.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Let me tell you how much I love disdain for cliches. Yeah,
this will reveal a less than noble part of my personality,
of which there are many, Okay, but one of my
pet peeves. Oh, just even thinking about it makes me
like physically and it's mean. So know that this is
(15:19):
mean on my part.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I have.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
No grace or tolerance. And again I want to say,
as I'm saying all of these things, I'm the jerk.
I have no grace or tolerance for when people say
or do mundane things but act as though they are novel,
I mean, like capital offense. It makes me so irrationally
(15:46):
angry when people are like blah blah blah, and it's
something everybody knows and they've just realized it. And I
should not be that way. I should be like, that's
so cool that you've just had this realization. Welcome, But
instead I'm just like, ugh, I hide it because I
know that's monstrous behavior. But it makes me understand when
he and his friend are like, let's write down all
(16:08):
the stupid things that people say thing, yeah, they're clever.
I'm like, yes, write them all down. That's a good
way to get it out. This reminds me of the
XKCD comic. I think it's called The Lucky ten thousand,
and the basic idea is that there are things that
you think that everyone knows, but like maybe one in
ten thousand people don't. I'm recapping this from memory, like
(16:32):
I could be saying this totally wrong. Randallman Rope, Please
don't be upset with me if I'm recapping your work badly.
But how when somebody, for example, has never heard of
the whole Mentos and Diet Coke thing, and they see
the Mentos and Diet Coke video for the first thing
can be like, oh, you're the lucky ten thousand, like
(16:55):
you were the lucky person who was seeing this for
the first time today. Yeah, can be a way to
think of that besides being like.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
You know what what I get? I try to what
do you get?
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I have a childish kind of mean fixation on the
people who say I was today years old when I
figured out and then the thing that they figured out
isn't a real thing. It's like I was today years
old when I figured out you're supposed to unroll the
little paper ketchup cups at the you know, fast food restaurant,
(17:30):
because then it holds way more ketchup. And it's like, no,
you're not supposed to unroll the lip.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Of the thing.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
You can do that, but that's not what it's made for.
That's the thing I get real frustrated by.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I've also started just blocking anyone on any you know,
any kind of social media who puts up obvious rage bait.
Oh yeah, Like I saw somebody one time that was
doing a video in which they were using a can
opener to open the can of biscuits that you're supposed
to open by like pressing into the seam, yeah, or
(18:10):
maybe smacking it against your cabinets. And they were like,
and I was like, I think you're just doing this
so people will engage with your video respites telling you, yeah,
that you're doing it wrong. I'm just blocking you so
I never have to see this again. Speaking of which
I think flow Bear would hate social media.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, probably because it is so.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Full of people having revelatory experiences that aren't really that revelatory. Yeah,
which I understand. There is a flip though not related
to flow bear at all, But after you're talking about
the Lucky ten thousand, have you had that opposite experience
where something that you thought was a universal experience people
are like or no, crazy, not everybody had that.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Mine are so odd and goofy and so stupid that
I would ever have thought everybody had that experience.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, do you have an example off the top of
your head. I thought everybody read Jim Carroll growing up. Uh.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
No, So when I would like casually reference the Book
of Nods, like I was, you know, hipster extraordinary in
the nineteen nineties, they would be like, what are you
talking about? And I'm like, Jim Carroll, what's wrong with you,
Jim Carroll, here's the basketball diaries. Come on, Jim Carroll.
And they would be like, Holly, we did not read
all of the heroin journals that you read apparently growing up.
But to me, I was like, of course you did.
(19:30):
Everybody I knew read them, my like seven friends. Ah sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm hard pressed to think of like an actual good
example right now, but I have had this experience at
work on the show. Not in a while, but like
in the past, we have gotten emails from people that
were like, hey, I just found this thing out for
the first time. You should do an episode on it,
(19:51):
because like, I don't think anybody knows about this, and
it's something that was like a part of my fifth
grade history class or something where I'm like, obviously everyone right,
And it's like, oh, no, Tracy, you just you learned
that because you lived in North Carolina and that's where
whatever the thing was happened, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
My other said I thought everybody knew clowns. I love
that though.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
That's funny to me because I grew up in you know,
like Florida where there is clown school.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, and you can't throw a rock without hitting a clown, like,
you know, if you're in theater or the arts at all,
you know people who were clowns. Yeah, And so I
just thought everybody knew clowns.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
It turns out they don't. No, I know clowns.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So when I would say things casually like the clowns
taught me that, right, people would be like, shouldn't excuse
I know clowns because it's but it's because of the
theater stuff more broadly, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. One
(21:02):
thing we didn't talk about was contextualizing Flaubert's trial in
relation to other writers that did not get the same
good fortune.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Charles Baudlaire, poet that I love, was put on trial
like essentially the same thing six months after Gustave Flaubert,
and he was found guilty. I think he was put
on trial for thirteen poems, yeah, and six of them
were found to be immoral. But he didn't suffer a
(21:33):
lot because of this. He was fine and his publisher
was fine.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Incidentally, one of the first poems I ever memorized was
the first part of by Charles Baudlair, and I to
this day I still know it. Soissages madulau reti to
recula melesis il dessent le'voisi an atmospherub.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Lucisi.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Forever I will be on my deathbed and I will
still be able to say that poem. It's a good one.
Read it in English, it's also good. Yeah, be still
my pain. I also had a revelation okay, that I
have never had before. Okay, while trying to like summarize
Madame Bowerie this round.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
This is gonna be so funny to me.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
If your revelation is something that everyone already knows, Probably
it is, but I don't know. I in trying to
write the summary of the novel and trying to point
out that Emma Bovary is ultimately revealed to be quite selfish,
you know, even when she's up against it and people
(22:39):
are like no, no, no, no no, She's like, yeah,
of course, let's buy more curtains. I was like, oh,
my gosh, was she part of the inspiration for Daisy
and Gatsby?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
But like from a different point of view, because Daisy
is very wealthy and can afford all these things. But
she is empty and kind of pursuing things that will
give her a thrill. And I was like, oh, my goodness,
is this a could I if I travel back in time,
could I go to graduate school and write an entire
thesis on this?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Maybe?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Maybe maybe. But also that also falls under that same
idea that everybody understands wanting more than you have or
different than you have, and wanting to find something that
excites you. My Gatsby memory, aside from having read that
also for school, maybe in college, is that when I
was getting married and we were planning our wedding and
(23:33):
I decided that we were going to have a twenties
theme wedding, I realized that there were a lot of
other people who were writing about their wedding inspirations, who
were describing their like roaring twenties kind of flapper wedding
as as that. And I'm like, no, not a great
(23:54):
Gatsby wedding. You shouldn't have a great Gatsby wedding, Greg,
the great Gasbee is not a good theme for a wedding. Well,
I'll make the case that that great party is worth
recreating that.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I can see that argument.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I think that's probably what people are doing, not like, hey,
let's use people and run them over with our car,
right right, And that's sort of why I think it's
weird to say that your wedding is a Great Gatsby wedding.
So that when I when then I was like, you know,
having meetings about wedding planning, I was like, it's the
twenties wedding, not Great Gatsby. It's not a Great Gatsby wedding.
(24:32):
It's just, Yeah, that doesn't bother me as much because
I presume they're borrowing the style of it and not
the mentality of the characters, and that is a good
shorthand for a lot of people that maybe are having
trouble like the twenties.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Nineteen twenties.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, although now like you timed it right,
because I feel like now the nineteen twenties is so
played out. Sure as a party theme, maybe, Yeah, it
was super fun though. I had a good time. You
made my dress, thank you, I did. I did make
your dress. There's a lot of beads on that third dress.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I've only made a couple of wedding dresses since then.
I used to do them all the time, and I
have slowed down in my old age. You have to
be very much a person that I really really adore
before I'll make you a wedding dress at this point,
because I used to do a lot of bridle, like
as a size asshole, and that was not fun because
(25:24):
one like, there's just too much. There's too much stress
on what people think a garment can do.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
For sure. Sure that made it not very fun for me.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
And also I just realized pretty quickly I just want
to design clothes for me and like the style I want.
I don't want to create other people's visions.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Go for it.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Go for it I do all the time, all the time,
all day, every day, stitching away over here. If anybody
has not read Gustav Labert's Madam Bovary, I highly recommend it.
There are also some good movie adaptations. They all take license, sure,
like the one from is It fourteen with Miawazakowska is
(26:04):
pretty good. It leaves out some stuff like in the
novel Madame Bovarie and Charles have a child.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
She does not appear in it.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
The coda where the apothecary kind of gets great recognition
even though he's kind of a social climber. Weasel that
is not in none of that's in there. It ends
with just the end of Emma Bovary, but it's still
pretty good. There's an actor in it who has some
very questionable stuff in his life that m you got
(26:35):
to overlook if you're going to do it.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
But it is quite good.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
There are many others to French language and English language
if people just want to watch movies. But I really
like this book because I think it is a good
examination of the way people can be very intoxicated by
the promise of something else giving their life. Meaning, oh sure, sure,
Like I said, I will talk about Bovy all day
(26:59):
every day.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I just love it. There you go. It was very funny.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I was talking you with one of my very best
friends the other day and I was telling her I
was working on this, and she's like, have you read
Madam Brain.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I'm like, have I read Madam over?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Like she been off more than she was ready for
in the I was like, I'm sorry, I've nerded up
this conversation. I'm just like, and then this happens, and
this is important because and it was like, yeah, don't
do it. Don't open Pandora's box. If you're not ready.
If this is your weekend coming up, I hope you
don't accidentally open up any Pandora's boxes you don't want.
(27:35):
If you get to read some books, whether that's classic literature,
new trashy fiction, great, I'm never gonna judge whatever is
going to make you happy and feel enriched. If you
don't have time off and you have to do you know,
work or have other responsibilities, don't get to sit on
(27:56):
your bedonc on your couch like is my favorite activity
on the weekend. I hope that your days go smoothly,
everyone is kind to one another, that we all remember
to take care of each other. These are the important things.
We sure are grateful that you are here listening. We
will be back on Monday with something brand new, and tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
We will have a classic.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Stuff you missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson
and I'm Holly Frye. This week we talked about Elizabeth
Bisland and her trip around the world and her whole
career as a journalist outside of that trip. I didn't
(00:25):
spell it out in the episode, but I kept calling
her Bisland after she got married because that was the
professional name that she continued to use for the whole
rest of her life, and it seemed kind of weird
to jump back and forth.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I also called Lafcadio.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Hearne Herne the whole time, even though his name changed,
because he only made that brief appearance at the beginning
and the end. Because since he only made a very
brief appearance at the beginning and the end, it seemed
potentially confusing to change what name I was using for
him and then also talk about his wife, who was
(01:02):
using the same family name. If we do an episode
on him at some point, that may proceed differently in
that full length episode.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, he's a wild one. Yeah, he's like one that's
been on my list for a while, and I look
at it, and I go later for you maybe maybe, yeah,
we'll see. Trying to narrow down how much of him
to talk about in this was a little tricky because
I can't like, it's clear that they they were important
to one another and that they were in touch with
(01:34):
each other for their whole his whole life after they met.
But I didn't want that episode to become too focused
on him because the episode was not really about him, right,
And then every time I learned a new thing about him,
I was like, man, he's so fascinating. Also kind of
a mess and fascinating, a fascinating mess similarly in some
(01:57):
ways kind of a mess or a mixed bag.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Maybe Elizabeth Bislind, Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I would read some things from her and go wow,
that's really lovely, and other things and go wow, yikes,
that was girl?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
What offensive?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
And then some stuff where it's like I wish I
could figure out more of your specific opinions on things
just because of you know, when and where you lived
and where your upbringing. Was like, yeah, you know, the
people of history have all kinds of different feelings, but
it is just it's nice to know, Yeah, when you're
talking about people, do you know what I've been thinking
about lately in regard to that, what is how easy
(02:38):
it is to forget? This is gonna sound so stupid,
and to me it seems so profound in the moment
I thought it, how easy it is to forget that
like any of these people we talk about historically, particularly
like in the twentieth century, that have a dicey mix
of like some of your concepts and your worldview is
great and some of.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It is not cool at all?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Is how much less information they had at their fingertips
at any given time, Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
To what we have.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So their experiential learning would have left huge gaps that
they just couldn't quickly fill in the way we can
with like a rapid Internet search. And so it's made
me feel a little more graceful for figures like her
that maybe just don't know. I know, she went around
(03:28):
the world, but in many ways she wasn't worldly, you
know what I mean. Still sucks, her position still sucks
on a variety of things. But like I'm not as
much like monster as I am. Like, you just didn't
have the knowledge, You just didn't have it. Yeah, I
sometimes think about things that I didn't have the knowledge.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, about for sure.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Say, for yeah, having grown up in the nineteen seventies
and eighties, you know, and started college in nineteen ninety three,
what a different understanding so many things in the world
between then and now. Oh yes, radically different access to
information now versus then. Yeah, so yeah, I do find
(04:10):
her to be a mixed bag. But boy do I
love how crabby she was about going on this trip.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I get it. Had I had so much.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Empathy for her being called into her boss's office to
do with things she didn't want to do and to
start right now, and like, well, and a pretty heavy
hitting assign you know what I mean. Like, I love
to travel. I live in the modern age when I
always have kind of like a go bag ready in
case I have to travel last minute. But if you
(04:44):
told me right now you have to leave on an
around the world trip that's going to take you more
than two months and you got to leave in six hours,
I yeah, would shout an expletive at you. I would
lose it. Yeah, yeah, I lose it about smaller things
than that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, it's a big ass. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I read a couple of things that, you know, things
written by modern people and written in recent years, who
characterized her almost as ungracious about it, And I'm like,
she was being told to drop everything and go on
a trip that was going to be uncomfortable at best
(05:25):
and exhausting, Yeah, with no notice whatsoever like that.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, to be cranky.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
It's not like winning a luxury trip around the world.
It's hustling. You're not getting to enjoy any of those
cultures very much. Yeah, you're not really exploring. You're just
going from like trained to train to train to boat
to train to boat to train.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah, no, thank you, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, as a person prone to sea sickness, I also
would have an added layer of how frustrating I would
find such an assignment given with no notice.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I really liked her early life experience of trying to
keep secret that she was writing poetry and that they
thought she was an old dude from England. Yeah, which
made me think a little bit of Edna Saint Vincent
Malay because oh yeah, she was not using a fake name,
but because Vincent was part of her name, people initially
(06:28):
thought she must be a mature man. And it just
tickles me in each case. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the number
of times that apparently people buy her writing thought that
she was a man amused me a little bit. And
the idea of suffering through something that it turned out
that you hated while churning the butter. Yeah, because George
(06:53):
Elliot said that it was the best thing. Listen, I
one hundred percent understand all of that. That is exactly
the kind of thing I would do where I'd be like, well,
this is these are two things that I feel like
I need to do. I'm going to combine them. Yeah,
that makes all the sense on earth to me. So
(07:13):
week I agree.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
There were a lot of moments in her story that
I was like, yep, I completely have empathy with that,
not all of them, obviously we already talked about that.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I love the idea of aside from the fact that
she thinks all men will be chivalrous, I love the
idea of early sort of like packing lists practical advice
for lady travelers.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, I do like that a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I was just so delighted by the descriptions of what
she thought would be good luggage and this newly developed
bureau trunk. I was like, Yeah, that would be really
handy if what you are traveling with is a big
old steamer trunk. Being able to open the top lid
and have that be drawers organized with all your small
(08:08):
items instead of having to have like a lot of
little interior boxes that you had to wrangle around for
your small items. Seems like it would be a lot
more convenient or just throwing your things into a trunk
and then having to pull them out and figure out
where everything was later on. Yeah, I had to look
up what a shawl strap was. Yeah, how exactly does
(08:28):
that work? It could just be you could just have
your shawl and it would be the strap that your
shawl was wrapped up in, so that you can sling
it over your shoulder, not have it to wear it
with you, but have it accessible when you got on
the train. All of those things. I do something similar
sometimes if I am taking a long trip and checking luggage,
(08:51):
I will often have in my purse or backpack that
I'm taking onto the airplane, I will have a change
of closed toothbrush, the deodorant, like basic things so that
just in case the checked luggage goes awry, I can
manage on what I put under the seat in front
(09:13):
of me. Do you remember on our first of you
misson history class trip, which was to Paris. The check
luggage going awrye for me, Am, I beloved no because
the first two and a half days we were in Paris,
Brian had nothing. I forgot this completely. Oh yeah, it
(09:35):
was like a little bit of a wild ride because
we had gotten to Charles de Gaul. Everyone from our
flight got to baggage claim. About half of them got
bags and rolled out, and the rest of us just
stood there for a long time. And then someone from
AYR France came over and was like, what are you doing?
(09:55):
We were like waiting on our bags and they're like
nuh uh. And it became this whole wacky brigamarole where
we were one of my bags had come out. At
that point I had two check bags, he had one
and my you know, mediocre French and this very kind
Air France woman like we were trying to work out
what was going on. The funniest part was when all
(10:19):
of our luggage that we usually travel with is the
American tourist line that came out years ago that looks
like droids from Star Wars.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So once I.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Showed her a picture, she was like, oh, like this
changed thing significantly, and she started calling departments around the
airport asking if they had seen R two D two
or C three PO because those are the two that
were missing. And at one point she talks to someone
and she makes a very excited face, hangs of the phone,
takes my hand and says, let's go, and we go
running to a different, completely different terminal, and shoved behind
(10:53):
a potted plant in a corner is my C three
PO bag.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
But Brian's R two D two ever shows up, And
I really think like some poor junior staff member overturned
one of their chain their little train of luggage trucks
and didn't know what to do and just hid things around.
Your phone, but his was not there, and we got
back to the we got to our hotel because she
was like, we're not going to find it today, go
(11:19):
to your hotel. Poor Brian had not packed anything in
his carrier like for overnight. Yeah, And so like those
first couple of days, we would get back to the
room and be like, did luggage show up? And they
had called our room at one point and said, we
found your luggage, were bringing it, but the number they
gave was the ticket that was on my C three
(11:40):
PO bag. We already had. Oh, and then we went
out one day and we did our tour and we
got home and it was that day and we asked
at the front desk and they were like no. But
then we got to our room and there was our
two D two like with light shining off of it
like it was a holy relic. And Brian hugged that
luggage for so long. So yeah, it's our story of
international not having your luggage.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
On our on our trip to Morocco last year, I
had a checked bag, but I also had like a
roller board to go in the bin above, and that
contained enough clothing that was all stuff that could be
like washed out in the sink and dry really quickly.
(12:24):
It had enough that I would be washing stuff in
the sink every day. But if the big checked bag
got lost, you'd be okay. I would be able to
make it through the trip because that trip we were
in a different place almost every day, Like there were
a couple of places that we spent two nights. Yeah,
if you're if a piece of luggage did not come
on our arrival to Morocco, odds of it catching up
(12:45):
to us were slim to none.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, so I had planned for the worst outcome of that,
and it was unnecessary. Everything was fine, did not need
it at all. I do a different thing in that scenario,
which is that I put everything I possibly can into
carry on. I do no checked bag going out m h,
(13:09):
but coming home, I'll check everything. Yeah, I checked everything
coming back. So I don't want to Yeah, don't want
to carry that Bizra and I did. I just laid
a piece of luggage while we were there. Yeah, because
on our last day we got additional treats that we
weren't expecting, like pieces of tari and I was like,
I've maxed out my luggage.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Now we have to yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Well I'm trying to imagine Elizabeth Bislin would have a
lot to say about all of these things.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
With our travel.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
We talked about Gustave Flaubert this week.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
We did.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I could swear that this came up briefly at some
point in another episode, but my so of the old
outlines yielded nothing, And I'm like, did I dream it?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
I like flow Bear a lot. The nice thing about
this one is that I had so many books already
on my shelf for the Russians that I was good.
Like I said, I was very fascinated by Madame Bowerie
when I read it in high school, so much so
that when I was in college, my high school English
teacher asked me to come back and do a guest
lecture on it to her then seniors. Okay, which was
(14:29):
super fun because I just like talking about it. I
like the questions you can raise about it, etc. One
of the things we didn't talk about in this episode
is how many other literary figures Gustav Flaubert knew right like,
he and George Soalnd were good friends, for example, and
(14:49):
there were many others, and I just didn't bring all
of them up because talking about other stuff sometimes.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
She got to edit.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Let me tell you how much I love disdain for cliches. Yeah,
this will reveal a less than noble part of my personality,
of which there are many, Okay, but one of my
pet peeves. Oh, just even thinking about it makes me
like physically and it's mean. So know that this is
(15:19):
mean on my part.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I have.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
No grace or tolerance. And again I want to say,
as I'm saying all of these things, I'm the jerk.
I have no grace or tolerance for when people say
or do mundane things but act as though they are novel,
I mean, like capital offense. It makes me so irrationally
(15:46):
angry when people are like blah blah blah, and it's
something everybody knows and they've just realized it. And I
should not be that way. I should be like, that's
so cool that you've just had this realization. Welcome, But
instead I'm just like, ugh, I hide it because I
know that's monstrous behavior. But it makes me understand when
he and his friend are like, let's write down all
(16:08):
the stupid things that people say thing, yeah, they're clever.
I'm like, yes, write them all down. That's a good
way to get it out. This reminds me of the
XKCD comic. I think it's called The Lucky ten thousand,
and the basic idea is that there are things that
you think that everyone knows, but like maybe one in
ten thousand people don't. I'm recapping this from memory, like
(16:32):
I could be saying this totally wrong. Randallman Rope, Please
don't be upset with me if I'm recapping your work badly.
But how when somebody, for example, has never heard of
the whole Mentos and Diet Coke thing, and they see
the Mentos and Diet Coke video for the first thing
can be like, oh, you're the lucky ten thousand, like
(16:55):
you were the lucky person who was seeing this for
the first time today. Yeah, can be a way to
think of that besides being like.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
You know what what I get? I try to what
do you get?
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I have a childish kind of mean fixation on the
people who say I was today years old when I
figured out and then the thing that they figured out
isn't a real thing. It's like I was today years
old when I figured out you're supposed to unroll the
little paper ketchup cups at the you know, fast food restaurant,
(17:30):
because then it holds way more ketchup. And it's like, no,
you're not supposed to unroll the lip.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Of the thing.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
You can do that, but that's not what it's made for.
That's the thing I get real frustrated by.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I've also started just blocking anyone on any you know,
any kind of social media who puts up obvious rage bait.
Oh yeah, Like I saw somebody one time that was
doing a video in which they were using a can
opener to open the can of biscuits that you're supposed
to open by like pressing into the seam, yeah, or
(18:10):
maybe smacking it against your cabinets. And they were like,
and I was like, I think you're just doing this
so people will engage with your video respites telling you, yeah,
that you're doing it wrong. I'm just blocking you so
I never have to see this again. Speaking of which
I think flow Bear would hate social media.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, probably because it is so.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Full of people having revelatory experiences that aren't really that revelatory. Yeah,
which I understand. There is a flip though not related
to flow bear at all, But after you're talking about
the Lucky ten thousand, have you had that opposite experience
where something that you thought was a universal experience people
are like or no, crazy, not everybody had that.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Mine are so odd and goofy and so stupid that
I would ever have thought everybody had that experience.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, do you have an example off the top of
your head. I thought everybody read Jim Carroll growing up. Uh.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
No, So when I would like casually reference the Book
of Nods, like I was, you know, hipster extraordinary in
the nineteen nineties, they would be like, what are you
talking about? And I'm like, Jim Carroll, what's wrong with you,
Jim Carroll, here's the basketball diaries. Come on, Jim Carroll.
And they would be like, Holly, we did not read
all of the heroin journals that you read apparently growing up.
But to me, I was like, of course you did.
(19:30):
Everybody I knew read them, my like seven friends. Ah sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm hard pressed to think of like an actual good
example right now, but I have had this experience at
work on the show. Not in a while, but like
in the past, we have gotten emails from people that
were like, hey, I just found this thing out for
the first time. You should do an episode on it,
(19:51):
because like, I don't think anybody knows about this, and
it's something that was like a part of my fifth
grade history class or something where I'm like, obviously everyone right,
And it's like, oh, no, Tracy, you just you learned
that because you lived in North Carolina and that's where
whatever the thing was happened, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
My other said I thought everybody knew clowns. I love
that though.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
That's funny to me because I grew up in you know,
like Florida where there is clown school.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, and you can't throw a rock without hitting a clown, like,
you know, if you're in theater or the arts at all,
you know people who were clowns. Yeah, And so I
just thought everybody knew clowns.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
It turns out they don't. No, I know clowns.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So when I would say things casually like the clowns
taught me that, right, people would be like, shouldn't excuse
I know clowns because it's but it's because of the
theater stuff more broadly, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. One
(21:02):
thing we didn't talk about was contextualizing Flaubert's trial in
relation to other writers that did not get the same
good fortune.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Charles Baudlaire, poet that I love, was put on trial
like essentially the same thing six months after Gustave Flaubert,
and he was found guilty. I think he was put
on trial for thirteen poems, yeah, and six of them
were found to be immoral. But he didn't suffer a
(21:33):
lot because of this. He was fine and his publisher
was fine.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Incidentally, one of the first poems I ever memorized was
the first part of by Charles Baudlair, and I to
this day I still know it. Soissages madulau reti to
recula melesis il dessent le'voisi an atmospherub.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Lucisi.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Forever I will be on my deathbed and I will
still be able to say that poem. It's a good one.
Read it in English, it's also good. Yeah, be still
my pain. I also had a revelation okay, that I
have never had before. Okay, while trying to like summarize
Madame Bowerie this round.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
This is gonna be so funny to me.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
If your revelation is something that everyone already knows, Probably
it is, but I don't know. I in trying to
write the summary of the novel and trying to point
out that Emma Bovary is ultimately revealed to be quite selfish,
you know, even when she's up against it and people
(22:39):
are like no, no, no, no no, She's like, yeah,
of course, let's buy more curtains. I was like, oh,
my gosh, was she part of the inspiration for Daisy
and Gatsby?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
But like from a different point of view, because Daisy
is very wealthy and can afford all these things. But
she is empty and kind of pursuing things that will
give her a thrill. And I was like, oh, my goodness,
is this a could I if I travel back in time,
could I go to graduate school and write an entire
thesis on this?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Maybe?
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Maybe maybe. But also that also falls under that same
idea that everybody understands wanting more than you have or
different than you have, and wanting to find something that
excites you. My Gatsby memory, aside from having read that
also for school, maybe in college, is that when I
was getting married and we were planning our wedding and
(23:33):
I decided that we were going to have a twenties
theme wedding, I realized that there were a lot of
other people who were writing about their wedding inspirations, who
were describing their like roaring twenties kind of flapper wedding
as as that. And I'm like, no, not a great
(23:54):
Gatsby wedding. You shouldn't have a great Gatsby wedding, Greg,
the great Gasbee is not a good theme for a wedding. Well,
I'll make the case that that great party is worth
recreating that.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I can see that argument.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I think that's probably what people are doing, not like, hey,
let's use people and run them over with our car,
right right, And that's sort of why I think it's
weird to say that your wedding is a Great Gatsby wedding.
So that when I when then I was like, you know,
having meetings about wedding planning, I was like, it's the
twenties wedding, not Great Gatsby. It's not a Great Gatsby wedding.
(24:32):
It's just, Yeah, that doesn't bother me as much because
I presume they're borrowing the style of it and not
the mentality of the characters, and that is a good
shorthand for a lot of people that maybe are having
trouble like the twenties.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Nineteen twenties.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, although now like you timed it right,
because I feel like now the nineteen twenties is so
played out. Sure as a party theme, maybe, Yeah, it
was super fun though. I had a good time. You
made my dress, thank you, I did. I did make
your dress. There's a lot of beads on that third dress.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I've only made a couple of wedding dresses since then.
I used to do them all the time, and I
have slowed down in my old age. You have to
be very much a person that I really really adore
before I'll make you a wedding dress at this point,
because I used to do a lot of bridle, like
as a size asshole, and that was not fun because
(25:24):
one like, there's just too much. There's too much stress
on what people think a garment can do.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
For sure. Sure that made it not very fun for me.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
And also I just realized pretty quickly I just want
to design clothes for me and like the style I want.
I don't want to create other people's visions.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Go for it.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Go for it I do all the time, all the time,
all day, every day, stitching away over here. If anybody
has not read Gustav Labert's Madam Bovary, I highly recommend it.
There are also some good movie adaptations. They all take license, sure,
like the one from is It fourteen with Miawazakowska is
(26:04):
pretty good. It leaves out some stuff like in the
novel Madame Bovarie and Charles have a child.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
She does not appear in it.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
The coda where the apothecary kind of gets great recognition
even though he's kind of a social climber. Weasel that
is not in none of that's in there. It ends
with just the end of Emma Bovary, but it's still
pretty good. There's an actor in it who has some
very questionable stuff in his life that m you got
(26:35):
to overlook if you're going to do it.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
But it is quite good.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
There are many others to French language and English language
if people just want to watch movies. But I really
like this book because I think it is a good
examination of the way people can be very intoxicated by
the promise of something else giving their life. Meaning, oh sure, sure,
Like I said, I will talk about Bovy all day
(26:59):
every day.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I just love it. There you go. It was very funny.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I was talking you with one of my very best
friends the other day and I was telling her I
was working on this, and she's like, have you read
Madam Brain.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I'm like, have I read Madam over?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Like she been off more than she was ready for
in the I was like, I'm sorry, I've nerded up
this conversation. I'm just like, and then this happens, and
this is important because and it was like, yeah, don't
do it. Don't open Pandora's box. If you're not ready.
If this is your weekend coming up, I hope you
don't accidentally open up any Pandora's boxes you don't want.
(27:35):
If you get to read some books, whether that's classic literature,
new trashy fiction, great, I'm never gonna judge whatever is
going to make you happy and feel enriched. If you
don't have time off and you have to do you know,
work or have other responsibilities, don't get to sit on
(27:56):
your bedonc on your couch like is my favorite activity
on the weekend. I hope that your days go smoothly,
everyone is kind to one another, that we all remember
to take care of each other. These are the important things.
We sure are grateful that you are here listening. We
will be back on Monday with something brand new, and tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
We will have a classic.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
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Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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