Sayyida al-Hurra, Moroccan Queen

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy V.
Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. I was looking back over
the year at the episodes that I've researched and written
of this show, and I felt like it was just

(00:25):
a little too heavily concentrated in the seventeenth through twentieth centuries,
maybe eighteenth through twentieth to be more fair, I feel you, Yeah,
So I on purpose went to look for something from
a little longer ago than that, and I landed on
Sayda Alhura, who has been on my short list for
quite a while and who lived in the fifteenth and

(00:47):
sixteenth centuries. We've talked about her very briefly on the
show before that was back in twenty sixteen, and that
very brief conversation was mostly about how we didn't have
a lot of information. There are some new English language
papers that have been published about her since that time,
but there are still a lot of unknowns about her.

(01:10):
A lot of European accounts of Sayda Alhurra's life characterize
her as a pirate, and that is how we described
her in that incredibly brief conversation in twenty sixteen that
was mostly about not knowing anything after getting into this
research more. I don't really think pirate is the best word,
or if any, It just doesn't tell the whole story

(01:31):
very well. Sayda Alhurra is a title, and it has
been translated from Arabic in multiple ways that all have
connotations of being honored, noble, or powerful, as well as independent.
Similar titles have also been used for other powerful Muslim
women in history, including Arwa al Sulaihi, who ruled Yemen

(01:53):
in the twelfth century. Some scholars have concluded that Sayida
Alhura's given name was probably Fatama or Aicha. A couple
of sources say that it might have been Lallah, but
that is also a title with a meaning along the
lines of lady. There is also an argument that, even
though it is typically a title, Alhurra was her given

(02:15):
name because it appears that way on her second marriage contract.
If that is the case, she may have been named
after an earlier woman who had earned that same title.
Sayeda Elhurra's father was Mulay Ali Ibin Rashid, and mulay
is another title. It essentially means prince. He was a sharif,

(02:38):
meaning he traces lineage back to the family of the
prophet Mohammed. His ancestors included King Idris the First, who
founded the first independent Muslim dynasty in what is now Morocco.
At different points in his life, Ali Ibin Rashid lived
in both Morocco in northern Africa, and in Granada on
the Iberian Peninsula. That included serving Sultan Mohammad the Eleventh

(03:03):
in Granada starting in about fourteen sixty. While he was
in service to the Sultan, he married Sayda Alhurra's mother,
Zora Fernandez. She grew up near Kadiz and she had
converted from Catholicism to Islam. Ali Ibn Rashid founded the
Moroccan city of chef Chowin in fourteen seventy one. Today,

(03:25):
Chef Chawin is known as the Blue City because so
many of the buildings in the Medina are blue, but
those very very distinctive blue walls and roofs are a
more recent development, with a lot of different stories about
how and why the color came to be used. At first,
Chef Chawen was mainly a kasbah or fortress meant to

(03:46):
help defend northern Morocco from the Portuguese after Ferdinand and
Isabella conquered Granada in fourteen ninety two. It also became
a home to an increasing number of Jewish and Muslim
refugees who were fleeing from what is now Spain. We
should back up for a second for some context on
all of that. First, defending northern Morocco from the Portuguese.

(04:09):
So Morocco and the Iberian Peninsula, of course face each
other across the Strait of Gibraltar, and this strait is
strategically very important for its connection between the Mediterranean Sea
and the Atlantic Ocean, and for connecting Northern Africa to
the Iberian Peninsula and then the rest of Europe. Seuta
is on a small isthmus on the Mediterranean coast of Morocco,

(04:32):
and that has been an important military and commercial port
for thousands of years. Portugal gained control of Ceuta in
fourteen fifteen and from there started trying to claim additional
territory in Morocco. Most of the cities that the Portuguese
tried to occupy were on the coast, and Chefhawin is
about sixty kilometers or thirty seven miles inland in the

(04:55):
Riff Mountains. This landscape and the distance from the coast
of offered some additional protection from the Portuguese and as
for Spain conquering Granada. Starting in the eighth century, Muslims
from Tangier and other parts of northern Africa conquered most
of the Iberian Peninsula. The region under Muslim control became

(05:18):
known as Al Andalus. Christians started trying to retake the
peninsula almost immediately, but these efforts were largely unsuccessful until
the eleventh century. The Christian reconquest, known as the Reconquista,
escalated after Pope Innocent the third declared a crusade in
twelve twelve, and by the middle of the thirteenth century,

(05:39):
the Nazrid Kingdom of Granada was the only part of
the Iberian Peninsula still under Muslim control. Ferdinand the third
of Castile recognized Granada as a vassal state in twelve
thirty eight, but conflict between Muslims and Christians and among
different Muslim factions within Granada continued. Then in four fourteen

(06:00):
ninety two, Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella of Aragon and
Castile conquered Granada and that ended the Reconquista. That same year,
Ferdinand and Isabella issued the Alhambra Decree, which forced all
Jewish people living in their territory to convert to Christianity
or be expelled. We did an episode about all of

(06:22):
that in twenty fourteen. Earlier in the Reconquista, Muslim community's
surrender terms had typically included that they could continue to
practice their religion, but the reality was that Muslims faced
increasing persecution as more and more of the Iberian Peninsula
came under Christian control. Ferdinand and Isabella also moved away

(06:44):
from this at least nominal religious tolerance, and in fifteen
oh two Muslim residents of Castille were ordered to convert
to Christianity or leave. Muslims living in Aragon got the
same order in fifteen twenty six. Say It Elhura was
born in the midst of all of this change and conflict.

(07:05):
Various sources put her birth at some time between fourteen
eighty five and fourteen ninety five, and her brother Ibrahim
was born in fourteen ninety, so all just within a
few years of the fall of Granada. While the date
of her birth is unclear and sources are kind of
contradictory about whether she was born in Morocco or in Granada.

(07:25):
We do know she was raised in Schefshawan, which grew
from a fortress to a multicultural and multi lingual community.
Its leadership was Muslim. It was part of a Muslim sultanate,
but it was also home to Christians and Jews, and Moriscoes,
which is the term for Muslims who had been forced
to convert to Christianity. Arabs, Europeans, Africans, and people from

(07:49):
a number of Amazik tribes also known as Berbers also
lived there. This wasn't completely egalitarian or peaceful. There were
clear privileges associated with being Muslim, and there could be
conflicts among these different religious and cultural groups, but Chef
Chouin grew into a diverse and thriving community even in

(08:10):
the face of this ongoing conflict with Portugal. Said al
Hurra was a Sufi Muslim, and she was educated by
some of Chef Chawin's most respected scholars. She learned multiple languages,
including Arabic, Spanish, and Portuguese. In fifteen ten, she married
the governor of Tetuan, Mulay al Mandrie. There's a bit

(08:31):
of debate about which Mulay Almandri this actually was. Some
sources argue that it was Abu Hassan al Mandri, also
known as Ali Almandri, who refounded the city of Tetuan,
while others argue that it was actually Mohammed Almandri, who
was either his grandson or nephew and became governor of

(08:52):
Tetuan later so. Tetuan is a port on the Mediterranean
coast of Morocco, north of Chefchaoan and south of Ceta.
Today it's the UNESCO World Heritage Site. It had been
an important port connecting Morocco to al Andalous starting around
the time of the Muslim conquest of the Iberian Peninsula.

(09:12):
Tetuan was destroyed by a Castilian force in fourteen hundred
and then by a Portuguese force in fourteen thirty seven.
Tetuan was rebuilt for the third time in fourteen eighty four,
and it functioned as a largely independent city state within
the Watacid Sultanate. Like Chefhawin, Tetuan became home to people

(09:33):
who wanted or were forced to leave the Iberian Peninsula
after the fall of Grenada and the expulsion of Muslims
from Spanish territory. This caused some difficulties, including violence between
the newcomers, who were largely from the Iberian Peninsula, and
the Jabala Confederation who lived in the region. These groups

(09:54):
eventually came to terms, though, especially when it came to
trying to repel Portuguese invasions. Sayda Alhera's marriage was a
political one. It brought together the ruling families of Chefhauen
and Tituin. Both of these were vassal states of the
Wattsid Sultanate, and that was who ruled northern Morocco. This

(10:15):
united two very powerful families and two powerful vassal states.
It combined their forces to both resist European incursions into
Morocco and to try to unite various ethnic groups and
tribes and different factions within Morocco. It's likely that Sayida
al Here's education and upbringing allowed her to assist and
advise her husband in his role as governor, starting from

(10:39):
the very beginning of their marriage. Over time, she became
an informal co ruler, with that authority becoming more formal
when her husband was away on diplomatic or military matters.
Since Tetuan was a port, this probably also allowed her
to learn more about maritime and naval matters. Alhurra's husband

(11:01):
died in around fifteen nineteen. His brother wanted to take
control of Tetuan, but her brother Ibrahim, who had become
vizier to Sultan Ahmad al Waitasi in Fez, named her
as Albandrie's successor. It really was not typical for women
to take on this level of power, but Sayda Alhura

(11:23):
seems to have earned the people's trust they accepted her
in that position. The overall prominence of her family may
have played a role in this as well, and it
is likely that this is when she earned the title
of Saida Alhurra, if it indeed is a title in
her case. We will talk more about her story after
we paused for a sponsor break. When Sayda Alhurra became

(11:55):
governor of Tetuan, in addition to the ongoing conflicts with
Portugal and Spain, Morocco was facing an economic decline. Earlier,
we mentioned Portugal capturing port cities along the Mediterranean coast.
That was largely the work of Portuguese Prince Henrique d'avis,
who is known in English as Henry the Navigator. That

(12:18):
moniker comes from his funding of exploratory voyages down the
Atlantic coast of Africa, which he mostly did not personally
participate in. He just paid for these voyages, traded for
goods and precious metals, and enslaved people along the African coast,
as well as capturing territory and establishing forts and ports.

(12:40):
European sea voyages down the African coast continued after Henry
the Navigator's death in fourteen sixty, including through the voyages
of Vasco da Gama of Portugal, who rounded the Cape
of Good Hope in fourteen ninety seven. Vasco de Gama
was not the first European to sail around the southern
tip of Africa, but he was the first to successfully

(13:02):
go from there to the Indian subcontinent. Ultimately, his voyages
helped establish a maritime trade route between Western Europe and
South Asia. A sea route to India reduced the need
for goods to be moved across Africa and through Morocco
when being transported to and from Western Europe. So as

(13:24):
more goods traveled by sea, the Moroccan economy started to
decline and its merchant class started to shrink. That was
in addition to the ongoing conflicts with European powers over
territory and growing divisions within Morocco about whether to continue
fighting them. For example, after the death of Sayda al

(13:45):
Hurra's father, her brother Ibrahim took his place in Schifshawan
and took a more conciliatory approach with the Portuguese. This
included signing an armistice with the governor of Ceuta in
fifteen thirty eight. In the face of all of this,
said Alha needed to find a way to protect Tetuan

(14:05):
and help it prosper. According to some accounts, she teamed
up with two Ottoman privateers, Orushe and Haisi Reis. Reis
is another title used in the Ottoman Empire for naval officers.
Orushe and Hiser were both known by a number of
names and titles, and are sometimes conflated into one. Pirate Barbarosa,

(14:28):
also known as red Beard. Barbarosa actually means red beard
in Italian, but simply calling these men pirates does not
really seem correct. They were born on the island of
Lesbos in what's now Greece, which was Ottoman's territory. At
the time, their father was a potter, and they and
their other brothers started out in that trade before becoming sailors.

(14:51):
Orushe and Hzier were both experienced at sea by the
end of the Reconquista, and eventually that experience did start,
including attacking Spanish and Portuguese ships in the Mediterranean. Soon
they were hired as privateers in service of Corcud, who
was one of the sons of Ottoman Sultan by AzID
the second. Corcud was executed in a dispute over the

(15:15):
line of succession in fifteen thirteen, so for a time
these brothers didn't really have any official backing. But in
fifteen sixteen, the Emir of Algiers asked for their help
dealing with the Spanish, and after Orush's force captured the
city from them, the Ottomans named him governor. Spain later
retook the city and Orushe was killed in fifteen eighteen,

(15:38):
but Hyzer's force drove the Spanish out once again in
fifteen twenty nine. Eventually, Suliman the Magnificent, who we covered
on the show in twenty fourteen, made Hezer governor of Rhodes.
His forces later captured to Nice and afterwards, Suliman named
him Grand Admiral of the Ottoman Empire. He was later

(15:59):
named Chi Chief Governor of Ottoman North Africa, and he
died in Constantinople in fifteen forty six. In addition to
attacking and harassing Spanish and Portuguese ships and settlements before
his death, Oruche Reiz carried Muslim and Jewish refugees from
the Iberian Peninsula to Morocco. That took place mostly between

(16:20):
fifteen oh four and fifteen ten, and he earned the
nickname Baba Oruche or Father Oruge for doing this. Sayeda
Alha was part of this effort to rescue people who
were trying to flee the peninsula. Sources are a little
contradictory about exactly what Sayeda al Hua's relationship was with
Oruche and Hazir. In some accounts she actively hired them

(16:44):
as privateers, and others it was more like she allowed
her own leaders and commanders to work with them, or
she just tacitly allowed them to operate out of Tetuan.
There are other similarly contradictory descriptions of her work with us,
their privateers and pirates in the Mediterranean. She also built
a shipyard which the Ottoman Empire both used to build

(17:08):
ships and as a port to attack the Portuguese in
the Spanish, and she expanded the fleet that her husband
had amassed, one that both defended Morocco and attacked and
captured its enemies. This included capturing Europeans and holding them
for ransom. There's documentation of prisoners of various nationalities being

(17:29):
held in prison in Tetuan, and Sayda al Here's negotiations
with those home nations to get them released. That ransom
money and the cargo from captured ships helped Tetuan really
thrive economically. As for calling them pirates, it is definitely
true that Arush and Hyzer didn't always have some kind

(17:51):
of official authorization for what they were doing at sea.
Sometimes they did, but sometimes they were acting on their own.
But sayde al Herro was the official authorization. She was
governing Tetuan, and this was a time when a lot
of leaders and governments hired civilians to attack their enemies
at sea in addition to or instead of their own navies.

(18:14):
Some sources framed Sayda Alhura's enslaving of prisoners or imprisoning
them and then ransoming them back to their countries of
origin as sort of a dividing line, making her a
pirate rather than just a leader who was legitimately using
maritime mercenaries to defend her territory. But at this point,
taking enemies prisoner and ransoming them back to their native

(18:39):
countries was relatively common. A lot of countries were doing
this long before they became famous as corsairs. One of
Oruche and Tazir's brothers was killed by the Catholic military
order known as the Knights Hospitaller while on a trading voyage,
and Oruche was captured and imprisoned by them. Bi Bill

(19:00):
Hazir paid a ransom to get him out. Spain and
Portugal were also kidnapping and enslaving Africans, and over the
course of the sixteenth century, every major European power was
involved in trafficking people out of Africa. In the paper
Said al Hura and early modern decolonial Muslim exemplar, doctor

(19:22):
Jason Idris Sparks points out that a lot of what
said Alhurra was doing seems pretty comparable to the actions
of her contemporary Queen Elizabeth I, including Elizabeth hiring privateer
Francis Drake and eventually knighting him. Beyond that, a big
motivating factor for both Sayid al Hura and the Barbarossa

(19:44):
Brothers was defending Muslim territory, including their own homes, against
European incursions or retaliating against attacks on Muslims on the
Iberian Peninsula during their lifetimes. The brothers home of Lesbos
was all so attacked and besieged during wars between the
Ottoman Empire and Venice. We've already talked about how Sayda

(20:07):
Alhura grew up in a place that was home to
refugees who had to flee the Iberian Peninsula, and after
her marriage, her home of Tetuan was continually under threat.
We talked in our recent Flying Gang episode about the
rise of piracy in the Caribbean in the eighteenth century
being tied to international disputes and economic factors, But all

(20:30):
of the stuff that we have been talking about seems
a lot more directly personal to Sayida Alhura and the
Barbarossa Brothers than the Caribbean was to a lot of
the European pirates who operated out of there. More broadly,
accounts from the Arab world are more likely to frame
said l her actions in her work with privateers as

(20:52):
a legitimate form of warfare, and it also may have
had religious elements, including a religious obligation to protect Muslims
and Muslim lands. A depiction of her at the Kasbom
Museum in chef Shaoin calls her a princess of Jahad,
a term that combines both struggle and duty in the
context of Islam, framing her so called piracy as a

(21:15):
holy war that she had a spiritual mandate to take
on Before we move on, the northern coast of Africa,
known at the time as the Barbary Coast, became very
heavily associated with piracy and the idea of Barbary pirates.
The number of pirates operating in this area really increased

(21:36):
in the early sixteen hundreds, and that was decades after
the deaths of Said al Hura and Urush and Hizier Race.
But some of the cities that the brothers captured and
transferred to the Ottoman Empire became known as part of
the Barbary states, which employed state sponsored piracy, which you
could also call privateering against European and later America in ships.

(22:01):
Sometimes the Barbarossa Brothers in particular are characterized as really
planting the seeds of this flourishing of quote Barbary piracy.
Many European powers paid tributes to the Barbary states so
their ships would be left alone, but the US did
not want to do that, ultimately leading to the nineteenth
century Barbary Wars. These wars ended with an overall victory

(22:25):
for the United States with treaty terms that put an
end to these tribute payments, but piracy continued from the
northern coast of Africa until the French conquest of Algeria
in eighteen thirty. Oh we'll talk about more about Sayd
al Hura after a sponsor break. To get back to

(22:52):
Sayd al Hura. She governed Tetwan for more than twenty years,
and during that time the city state really prospered, and
fifteen forty one, roughly two decades after the death of
her first husband, Sultan i'm Ed al Waitasi of Fez,
asked to marry her. At this point, she would have
been in her fifties or maybe early sixties. Typically, the

(23:15):
sultan's bride to be would travel to Fees to be
married there. It was a sultanate within capital somewhere else.
They would travel to that capital and then they would
remain there in the capital after the wedding. But Sayda
al Hura refused to leave Tetuan. The Sultan traveled to
her and after the wedding she stayed where she was

(23:36):
and continued to rule Tetuan. This is not how it
normally worked at all. I have a story for what
is a normal wedding on her behind the scenes. Like
her earlier marriage, this one was political. As we said earlier,
while Tetuan was a vassal state of the Watasea Sultanate,
it operated largely as an independent entity. So this was

(23:59):
a marriage between the Sultan and the leader of one
of the Sultanate's most prosperous and powerful vassal states. By extension,
it also made a connection between the Sultan and said
al Hura's family home of chef Schawin. This drew comparisons
to the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella, uniting the kingdoms
of Aragon and Castile, and that's seen as the foundation

(24:22):
of Spain as a modern state. More generally, said Alhura
was probably the most powerful woman in Morocco and the
what is It Sultanate, which controlled northern Morocco, was trying
to strengthen itself against the Saudi Sultanate, which ruled western
Morocco from its capital in Marrakesh. But as this was happening,

(24:45):
Said al Hura's rule in Tetuan started to slip. Ongoing
disputes with the Portuguese city of Ceuta ultimately led Ceuta
to cut off trading ties with Tetuan. This didn't totally
cut off Tetuan's wealth by any stretch, but the city
did see a drop in prosperity. Then, in fifteen forty two,

(25:06):
Sayd Alhura's son in law, mulay Ahmed al Hassan Almandri,
overthrew her in a coup. He cut ties with the
whitestied Sultanate and apparently expected the Saudis to take over.
That is ultimately what happened. The Saudis captured Fees in
fifteen forty nine, and they moved the capital of the

(25:28):
sultanate Twufees. In sixteen oh three, the family of Said
Alhara's late first husband and at least one of her
surviving brothers, sided with the Saudis. During all this, the
Sadis retook a lot of the territory in Morocco that
Portugal had seized and occupied. While Sayid Alhara was not

(25:48):
directly involved with this, her ongoing maritime efforts against the
Spanish and Portuguese are seen as helping set the stage
for the Sadis to reclaim more territory. Morocco also fought
off the Ottoman Empire's attempt to take control in the
sixteenth century, and remained an independent sultanate until after the
French conquest of Algeria in eighteen thirty that we mentioned earlier.

(26:13):
After that, international disputes in and around Morocco escalated, including
the Scramble for Africa by the European powers, and Morocco
ultimately becoming a protectorate of France in nineteen twelve. Morocco
regained its independence in nineteen fifty six. Meanwhile, Ceuta was
Portuguese territory during Sayda al Hurra's lifetime. It was passed

(26:38):
to Spain in fifteen eighty. Ceuta and Mittia, on the
northern coast of Morocco both continue to be Spanish presidios today.
Ceuta has been in international news as we are recording this.
When the episode comes out, that will be two weeks
in the past, and I do not know how the
situation will have developed by them. She was overthrown by

(27:01):
her son in law, said al Hurrah, was stripped of
her possessions, and she returned home to chef Chowin. She
still had family there. We don't know much about her
life after that, but we do know that she died
on July fourteenth, fifteen sixty one. At that point she
would have been in her sixties or seventies. According to
some accounts, she retired to a Sufi lodge in chef

(27:23):
Chowin had spent the rest of her life focused on
spiritual and religious pursuits. As far as we know, she
never had any children. There is some speculation that one
reason for the lack of documentation about her life and
rule of Tetuan is that later leaders of the city
found her legacy threatening or they didn't want to acknowledge

(27:45):
how much it had flourished while she a woman was
in charge. A lot of the contemporary or near contemporary
mentions of her are from Europeans, which is also connected
to why she is so often framed as a pirate,
rather than as the leader of a city state or
the queen of the sultanate. As we said at the

(28:06):
top of the show, there have been some papers about
Sayid Alhera in recent years. One is the paper by
doctor Jason Idriss Sparks that we mentioned earlier. It was
published in the journal Religions in twenty twenty five, and
it makes a case that Sayid Alhura is an early
example of decolonial thought. Another is by doctor Amal Elheimer

(28:27):
of the University of Kansas. She grew up in Morocco
and traveled there to look for information on Sayda Alhura.
She found primary and secondary sources that weren't available in English,
and then translated those herself and talked to historians in
Morocco who knew more about her. In addition to this
more recent academic work, in twenty sixteen, there was a

(28:50):
TV series about Sayda Alhura on Moroccan television. I don't
know much more about that other than that it happened. Uh.
I'm so glad you picked this one. Oh good, because
she's interesting to me. Do you have listener mail for us?
I do have listener mail viewers from Netflix I'm gonna

(29:11):
have to read it from my phone because of reasons.
This says, Hi, Ho, Holly and Tracy Kell here from
the Morocco trip. I hope you're both doing well, I call.
I didn't on purpose pick this because it's Kel from
the Morocco trip. That is a coincidence. But we love Kel,
but we love Kel, Kel said, I meant to write

(29:32):
in about sneakers, and then Unearthed happened and I had
to write you about Shakespeare, and so now you get both.
Shakespeare first. I was very excited to hear the news
on Unearthed about the firm location of Shakespeare's London house,
which I had somehow missed. I did my MFA in
staging Shakespeare, and we spent two weeks each year studying

(29:54):
at the reconstructed Globe and poking about southern hot Tip.
Look up the pronunciation of that if you don't already
know it. One fun thing about England is that the
country is so old and their structures have been in
the same place for so long that you often run
into situations like this. They'll locate something of historical interest
but can't excavate because there is a different building of

(30:16):
historical interest built on top of it. There may not
be anything to excavate with this building, but this is
the case with the actual Shakespeare's Globe Theater. They found
the location of the foundations and half of it is
under a car park, but the other half is under
a building that is also landmarked eighteenth century if I

(30:37):
remember correctly. They can't do any excavating without disturbing the
nearby structure, even though we'd love to dig around and
the Globe's dirt nearby. There are also the foundations of
the Rose Theater, where Shakespeare performed prior to the building
of the Globe and later a rival theater. Its foundations
were discovered when they went to build a huge office

(30:59):
building in the eighties. Actors from Laurence Olivier to Dustin
Hoffman and Judy Dench were out protesting trying to keep
them from bulldozing the site. In the end, they built
the building over top of the theater, but altered the
structure at the bottom to preserve the foundations. It's pretty
spectacular engineering, and now we have a viewing space can
continue to research and they sometimes put on events. A

(31:22):
quick note on sneakers and swing dancing since i've talked
so much about Shakespeare and early modern theaters, I could
go on all day. First of all, thank you for
explaining to me why all my British friends call them plimsols. Second,
I wondered if you knew that Ked's slash plimsol styled
shoes were the favorite shoes of former podcast subject Frankie Manning,

(31:47):
Whitey's Lyndy Hoppers and other swing dancers. The picture used
on the cover of his autobiography is of him and
another dancer doing an airstep, and both of them are
wearing that style of shoe. These shoes are still favored
by swing dancers today, although in a twist I find hilarious,
we often have to put leather on the soules so
they will spin daring turns. The rubber grip on the

(32:09):
bottom of today's shoes is often too much for dancing,
but I assume that the material slash texture was different
in the thirties and forties and they had the right
amount of traction on the wooden dance floors. A future
podcast on Norma Miller, another of White East Lindy Hoppers,
would be fantastic. I saw her speak at New Orleans
when she was close to one hundred, and she was
a real spitfire, flirting with the guys and still dancing. PS.

(32:33):
We're very excited to be coming to Germany and Checchia
with you this fall. Until then, Kell, so thank you
so much Kel for this email. For a couple reasons. One,
I love all of this about the Shakespeare me too. Great.
I don't think I remembered or maybe didn't know, you
had an MFA in staging Shakespeare. That's great. The other

(32:54):
reason is I meant to talk about wearing kads for
swing dancing in the behind the scenes of the Sneakers episode,
and then I forgot you did. Did we talk about
it in the behind the scenes, No, because I didn't.
Did you swing dance? Do you swing dance? Yeah? So
I never knew. Yeah, this is a thing that I

(33:16):
did a while ago. We were owned by a company
that gave us a health and wellness benefit and you
could get reimbursed for a GEM membership or class you
were taking, and I could get reimbursed for swing dancing classes.
So fun, and I went through multiple levels of swing

(33:38):
dance classes and then I took some Lindy Hop classes.
Lindy Hop was a lot of fun, and people talked
about liking to wear kids for their lending hopping, and
I got a pair of keads that were super cute
and then did find them too grippy on the floor.

(33:59):
When I would go out social dancing, that was the
thing that I did a while. One of the reasons
was to get out of my comfort zone. Yeah, I
am not always comfortable in group settings. I'm not always
good at talking to people. Social dancing was a lot
of fun. I have not done it in many years.
I think the last swing dancing that I did was
when Patrick and I took classes before our wedding and

(34:22):
we danced our first dance at our reception, and I
don't think we have done it since. I also have
very strong memories of that dance. Oh because probably not
for the reason I mean, not that it was very sweet.
Is it because you were afraid the beads were going
to fly off my dress? Yeah? Yeah, yeah they did not,

(34:43):
or if they did not, to an appreciable amount. Well,
I in case any listeners don't know or remember, I
made Tracy's wedding dress. I added a lot of beads
we hadn't discussed. I was like more bead fringe, which
in my defense was terrific, but it was as you
guys were whipping around, I was like, oh, dear Grido,

(35:06):
please don't let beads fly everywhere and make this entire
venue like a hazard for everyone because they were little,
tiny seed beads. But they didn't. They all stayed in place.
I'm happy to report they stayed there. So thank you
so much, Kel for this email and for giving me
the chance to say something that I meant to say

(35:26):
in our behind the scenes episode on Sneakers, which I
forgot to talk about, and for being grand. We love Kel.
I had a great time with Kel in Chef showIn
we can talk more about Chef Showen and the behind
the scenes of this episode. Can't wait. So thanks for writing, Kel.
I look forward to seeing you again. If you would
like to send us a note, We're a history podcast

(35:48):
at iHeartRadio dot com. If you would like to see
the show notes to this episode, where we list all
of the papers and other resources that we used, including
the two that we specifically mentioned. That is at History
podcast at iHeartRadio dot com, and you can subscribe to
the show on the iHeartRadio app, but anywhere else you
like to get your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History

(36:15):
Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Stuff You Missed in History Class News

Follow Us On

Hosts And Creators

Holly Frey

Tracy Wilson

Show Links

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Betrayal Weekly

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Sayyida al-Hurra, Moroccan Queen