February 27, 2026 • 25 mins
Tilly Norwood caused quite a stir when she was introduced in late 2025. Her creator, actor-producer Eline Van der Velden, said she wanted Tilly to be the “Scarlett Johansson” of AI actors. But she immediately felt the backlash from Hollywood. Emily Blunt called Tilly “really, really scary,” and agencies said they wouldn’t sign her. But Eline is pushing forward, creating a TV show around Tilly, filled with all-new AI characters. Karah sat down with Eline to talk about how she created Tilly, how she taught her to “act,” and to discuss how Eline sees the future of AI in filmmaking.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to tech Stuff. I'm care Price and this is
the story. Our weekly round up episodes will be back soon,
but today I want to share something that rocked my
Hollywood community last September. It's Tilly Norwood and it's an actress.
And yes it is the correct word to use, because
Tilly Norwood is an AI actress. As you can imagine,
(00:37):
there was an uproar. Many A listers spoke out against
Tilly Norwood, and sag after released a statement saying they
didn't recognize Tilly as an actress. And I completely understood
the outrage. What I didn't fully get was why Tilly
Norwood existed in the first place. So I reached out
to the person behind the AI, Eleen Vandervelden. It turns
(00:58):
out Ellen is an actress, an actress who was extremely
good at physics and spent a few years working to
save the world through nuclear fusion, but ultimately the immediacy
of acting won her back. In twenty ten, Eleen started
to build a company called Particle six. Now that company
is a well known AI production studio, and Tillie Norwood
(01:20):
is a Particle six creation with a deliberately stated use.
So let's dive into our conversation. So you want to
create an actress? How do you actually go about doing that?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I know, right, where do you stop?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah? Where do you begin when you want to actually
create an actress?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
So I went to chat GBT and I said, I hate,
I want to make an AI actress. Did you really stop?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Of course I did. It's like, help me here.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I used it as a sort of brainstorming tool. So
I was like, okay, so I want to make the
SAI actress. I want her to resonate around the world.
I want her to be, you know, resonant with multiple
different communities around the world. I want her to have
the qualities of all the greatest you know what what
is that X factor? You know that she should have?
(02:11):
And the funniest thing I came back with it said
that she should look healthy. Really sure, Yes, she should
look healthy and alive. Yeah yeah, so yeah, I thought
that was a really good tip. And so we just
went through two thousand iterations, I think almost in order
to get the right look. I was very picky, you know.
(02:33):
Originally it came up with this sort of very air
brushed image of what she should look like in order
to become this global superstar. And I really told it
that I wanted her to become super famous. You know
that she had to become the biggest the AI A
lister was the idea, and you know, it came up
with all sorts of plans for her. But then you
sort of filter through and you go, well, that's not
(02:54):
that's not a good plan. That's not a good plan.
That is a good plan. You know, you just work
together with it, and eventually we had just a general
image and then we were working with all sorts of
different tools in order to create the final image and
get the texture of her skin and you know, really
what she looked like and as you steal morphed like
I don't know if you saw the AI commissioner video,
(03:17):
it was like a comedy sketch we did with her.
When we launched her, we'd pitched this beautiful comedy two
sisters running a funeral parlor in Margate, warm, weird, very
BBC two Commissioner said No AI generated one hundred better
ideas in minutes, perfectly aligned to channel data, viewing figures
and optimized for the audience. The winning AI format, I.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Know what your streamed last summer.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
An interactive thriller built from your streaming history and delivery orders,
what and who. So it's just a bit of a
spoof and it's about the TV industry in the UK,
so it's very British. Some of the references and jokes
are very British. But we have loads of different characters,
all very diverse, and this was when we could only
(04:01):
do AI prompting to make them act. Now we could
also use motion capture and we're using loads of actors
in the projects that we're making, and yeah, go have
a look. It's it's funny.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
When you decided to create Tilly, what was your initial
plan for her?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
It was for her to be the AIA lister. I
think she is.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Would you say Tilly is a list in AI? Yes,
she's like the top, She's the kreme de la creme actress.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
She's the Kremlin la creme AI actress.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I think I think I would. I mean, she's definitely
the most known. She's definitely the most known actress.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
But she now has to go and work and show
her acting. So that will be our next release will
be very much focused on that.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I think people might have a hard time wrapping their
head around this just because they're not people who create
digital avatars, Like, how did you choose what she was
going to look like? Gosh?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I mean that really comes down to my acting side
of things to you know, like when you're like I
did so many pilot seasons and you know, auditions, and
it's a very specific type that gets cast, a sort
of a leading female. You know, it's usually actually not
a blonde, right, So I wanted to create the girl
(05:21):
that does get cast, and I wanted her to be
really natural looking, and you know, it's it's almost like
your own Barbie in a way, right I could. I
could create my own Barbie and dress her and you know,
it's all just playing, right, it's creative play. And it's
the same way I would create a character if I
(05:42):
was on stage at an improv show. It's the same
way I would create a character like I did for
the BBC. It's exactly the same process. So it's like
an onion, right, you start with the outside usually so well,
you know, when you when you create a character, you'd
put certain earrings on and you go and she talks
like this, and she has these ear rings and and
then you go down to the outfit and you peel
the layers off, and then you think about the backstory
(06:04):
and the motivation. Why do they say these things and
why they say in this way, and how do they
react to this? And so that peeling of the layers
with Tilly is the exact same process, And we're thinking
about this world that she's living in and who are
her friends, and what's her personality like and her sense
of humor, And it's an endless process of onion peeling.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Will you change the way she looks or she's set?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
She's pretty set. Yeah, she's pretty set. She can get
older or younger, but her image is now so set,
and we can do you think short age? I don't
think she will age unless we want her to for
a specific role. And this is happening quite a lot now.
We get a lot of requests for films where they
want the same actors to play their younger selves or
their older selves. Like that's all possible and great that
(06:52):
they can, right that they don't need to cast child
actors to do that. So yeah, no, I think Also,
I think it's more ethical when it comes to children
or animals, right, Like I've filmed with children before. There's
no need if you can avoid it, that's better, and
the same with animals.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Interesting, I bet some people would have different opinion on that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, yeah, and they can. But a lot of bad
things have happened to kids on sets and sets very safe, yeah,
not very safe environments, So you know they can have
that opinion, but I disagree.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah. So in the CBS Sunday Morning segment that you did,
you taught Tilly acting how do you teach acting to AI?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So back in that time, which is November December twenty
twenty five, it was only still possible to prompt an
AI actor to teach it how to you know, what
to say and how to say it. Now we're doing
way more performance capture.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Oh interesting. Yeah, so who's doing that acting? Me?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Me, me me.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, so you, in a sense, Tilly is imbued with you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Absolutely. I think this is the biggest misconception people have
around the world is that they don't think there's any
human behind AI things across the board, and there's so
much human work that goes on behind the scenes. I mean,
we've got a team of eight people working on the
Tilly verse. You know, it's it's a huge endeavor and
it's a really creative endeavor.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I'm just so interested that you are doing the motion capture. Yeah, yeah,
so that's so. I mean, where are you doing it?
Oh you can just do it on an iPhone in
a studio. No, you can just do it anyway. Oh
you're doing it on an iPhone.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, yeah, you can walk around on an iPhone. Anything's
possible now, Yeah, unbelievable, But that tech has only arrived
like the last month or two. Yeah, through in chat GBT. No, no, no,
We're using all sorts of different programs. So our team
at Particle Sex is really well versed in probably like
(08:58):
fifty different tools, and we have a proprietary workflow that
we use with the different tools in order to achieve
a certain quality. So that's really what people you know,
come to us for and Tilly is just you know,
an example of that. But we do it for commercials,
we do it for film and TV work, you know,
we do it across the board.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And what's your favorite thing that Tilly has done so far?
Like what role?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
So I can't talk about the roles yet because it's
still in you know, in progress, but what she does do,
which I like, I find the prompting quite funny with
the AI acting because you know, anyone who's worked with
the eye knows that it doesn't really listen to you
very well. So I like the unexpectedness of it. And
I once asked her to dance in blue jeans and
(09:45):
she was just in her underwear. She once I got
her flying on a on a flamingo and she turned
around to me and she goes, take that, Hollywood. I
was like, I didn't tell you to say that.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
She she just said that untrained. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is
it weird seeing something that was trained on you? So
she's not technically trained on me. We're training her brain
where we're creating her brain, So it's like a creative
writing exercise, right, It's built on top of an LLM,
and we give her guardrails, and we give her morals
(10:21):
and values.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
It's very much like a child. You know, you bring
up a child and you send them off into the
world at eighteen, you go, good luck. Yeah, And it's
just sort of the same with Chilly. Just knows shorter
amount of time. So eventually we'll send her off with
her brain and hope for the best. We're testing her
a lot, as you can imagine, is.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
It uncanny to see her with the motion capture.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yes, yeah, it's quite a lot of my friends they go,
oh yeah, I can totally see you in her.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Is it uncanny for you?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I mean, it's no different to watching myself on screen
as an actor, which I guess you're used to. It
is always weird, yeah, I mean, but people have got
a lot more used to that now because they're watching
themselves on screen in video calls all the time, so
it's less weird than it used to be.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I think after the break, Whileen didn't think Tilly nor
would would become that controversial stay with us. So the
(11:40):
SAG union has insisted that Tilly be referred to as
an avatar or a computer generated character. How do you
feel about that and not a real actor?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, she is a computer generated character. Yeah, And I
totally agree with SAG on all of that. The film
You Know Avatar, where they Zary Saldana plays a character
like it's exactly the same, that she's just the same
as Darth Vado or any other character that humans have
created before her, And the only difference is is that
I called her an AI actor because I didn't want
(12:13):
Tilly to be limited to only playing one character. So
the beauty is she can play multiple different roles and
that's also part of her story going forward.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
So you don't want her to only be Tilly as
an actress.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
No, no, she's already playing loads of different roles. It's
really fun.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah. Yeah, so in that way, she's not just an avatar.
She's an actress.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yes, yes she is, but she's also a computer generated
Like we never shied away from the fact that she's AI.
She's one hundred percent computer generated, nothing else. And yes,
we direct her with prompts and we direct her with
my emotion capture. But yeah, let's not say she's anything
else than computer generated.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
So obviously, when Tilly was first announced, there was a
lot of backlash from Hollywood. Yeah did you expect this.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Because we'd launched her in July in the UK with
the comedy Sketch AI commissioner, and you know, everyone thought
it was quite fun and there was absolutely no backlash
whatsoever because loads of all the production companies in the
UK were using AI and they were like this is cool, Like,
you guys are clearly like leading the front on this,
(13:21):
and you know, people were coming to us because most studios,
most companies are embracing AI here because we get small
budgets and we want max value on screen, so you know,
all the help we can get in order to achieve that.
And I was showing Tilly around sort of to educate
the creative community. It's not like we were taking any
(13:43):
jobs away from real actors. That was never never the plan.
It was never anything we did. And so but I
felt compelled to show the crazy community what was possible,
right because I think what's even worse is digging your
head in the sand and not knowing what the text doing,
so that you can't make any decisions over where the
creative community is going to go next, and then it's
(14:05):
going to be imposed on you by by the tech
community as to what happens next. So I was doing
a lot of trade shows and I was showing Tilly around,
and then obviously the American audience got hold of it
with this deadline article and they just went crazy thinking
that she was going to take all the jobs because
she looked so real, and I totally get it, like I,
(14:25):
you know, you going from zero to one hundred. A
lot of these people had never seen anything AI generated,
and suddenly you see Tilly, You're like, oh, my goodness,
you know, I get it.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I mean it's also a little bit absurd to think
that anybody, any one entity could take all of the jobs.
It's kind of like a new actress coming on the
scene and being like, well, Jennifer, we should stop Jennifer
Lawrence because she's going to take all the jobs. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I think my message was clear, right, like, let's be
aware of this because AI actors are possible now, yeah,
and so how do we control that and how we
do we have a say in this going forward as
actors ourselves, so also as an actor myself. It's a
(15:09):
way to future proof, right. So I'm telling other actors like, hey,
you can create an AI digital twin of yourself that
you can control and you own the copyright too. Or
you could you know, become an actor that controls with
motion capture. These AI characters, Like, they're going to be
loads of new different types of jobs, you know. I
(15:30):
think there's a lot of fear out there where people
are like, oh, it's going to take all the jobs away,
Like we are hiring loads of people, there's loads of
new jobs. It's it's exciting. It's the biggest boom I've
seen in our industry in the last ten years.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
When Tilly was first introduced to the US, you said
that you were looking for an agent for her. Does
she have an agent yet?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So we decided to not go with an agency. We
were talking to loads of them because we felt like, actually,
there should be an agent at one point that specializes
in these AI characters, which I think there will come. Also,
she doesn't really need an agent right now anymore because
she became so famous. She didn't need an agent anymore
to get jobs because there was just an influx, massively
(16:15):
overwhelming inbound reaction.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So yeah, so she does not have an agent now.
She doesn't need one. She does not need one, and
apparently she's turned down film and TV offers.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yes, yes, so we you know, we didn't set out
for her to be replacing real actors in real roles
right now at all. That's that's never the plan. So
any people that come to us with like, you know, oh,
you know, we wanted to cast Jennifer Lawrence for this role,
but actually it could be Tilly, Like, We're like, no,
that's not the plan. Yeah, However, if there's a role
(16:51):
that's like an AI character, in the script or something
that makes sense, then obviously we would might consider it.
But really, she's living in her AI world and we're
creating that whole AI world as we speak.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I see. So she's not like, we're not going to
see her winning any Oscars soon unless there was a
new category in the Oscars.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, I think a new category would work. But also,
you know, if people are making AI films, you know,
there's loads of great AI short films out there that
are fully AI. She could be in them right absolutely,
because we were never going to have a real actress
being them unless it was a digital twin, which is
the equivalent of Tilly.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
That's so interesting. I don't know. I'm just so enamored of.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
People have a lot to get their heads around. I've
been thinking about this for three years and people are like, what, No, It's.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Just interesting because I think the original backlash was this idea,
and it's people being somewhat short sighted about the fact
that an AI actress is going to replace real actresses.
But what you're saying is very much on the contrary,
which is like, this is an AI actress who is
entering a new category of actor.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Correct, But it's hard for people to understand. Right, it's
all new, like it's going to take time. So she's
not doing live action, no, no, no, we've always said
and that was in our original statement as well, like
she's only in AI content full AI content.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Is your intent to create more AI characters like Tilly?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes, so our plan is to create a whole universe
and they all have you know, they're all characters in there.
So we're creating a whole TV show for Tilly really
yeah who really?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah? Yeah yeah yeah yeah, So a TV show meaning
like Seinfeld for Tilly. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I don't want to give it away too much, but yes,
there's a whole load of new stuff coming out with
Tilly in it. And she's also doing lots of projects.
So we've got loads of directors that approach us they
want to work with Tilly because they want to learn
about AI. You know, we have costume designers, production designers,
and we all let them work with Tilly. It's like
they called the Tilly Blayground. Let them work with Tilly
(18:58):
and that way they can discover how to use AI
in their workflow and reskill, retool them for this new,
this new this, it's an AI revolution, really that we're
going through, and it's a new AI realm that we
all have to work in. We all have to understand
how it works.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
If you had a time machine, would you create Tilly again?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
And would you launch would you launch her in the
same way?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I mean, yeah, I suppose yes it. You know, like
as much as publicly there's been this backlash, you know,
creatively and privately, everyone has come to us because we're's
sort of the leaders in this space. I would say
we're probably one of the best AI production studios. I
think people saw the quality we could do. You know,
(19:42):
it's it's been great for us. We've been approached by everybody.
It's fantastic. So you know that a backlash can be
a positive thing.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
It Also, I think the backlash was a little bit
shortsighted in not understanding what you were actually trying to
do with Tilly.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, they just saw a head and thought something when
really they didn't delve deeper into it. But also I
can see why it might have been a shock for people,
right like the zero to one hundred thing with AI,
and I understood it totally. But people adapt very quickly,
and you can see that now, you know, We're three
(20:19):
four months on and the conversation has completely shifted again,
and everyone's like, how do we use AI? You know,
and we're seeing amazing creative projects being made with AI.
You know all the super Bowl ads where AI.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
There was you know much AI and the Super Bowl
ads it was incredible.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So you know, it's it's coming. There's not you know,
there's nothing we can do about it. It's coming, So
let's think about how we approach it ethically and do
it right.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Do you foresee a film that is completely AI generated
that could be nominated for an asker? Yes?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
The Academy has said they don't discriminate against it, right,
so you know, it's still about storytelling and with or
without AI.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
So yes, I think.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I think within a year's time, there won't be a
film that hasn't got some element of AI in it, right,
whether it's in post production, whether it's in just voice cleanup,
you know, an audio tidy, you know, whether the production
teams have used chat, GPT or Gemini. Of course, like
everyone's going to be using AI. It's going to be
like electricity.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
It is different though to have an actual character that's
AI generated, then to use AI to facilitate production.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So we started just having AI to facilitate production. Right
when we started three years ago, it was all about
optimizing the workflow and not it wasn't visible on screen
what we were doing with AI, but you very quickly
moved to So it's a gradual process, right. So first
it's just in production workflows. Then it's in post production,
(22:01):
which I mean most of the post production of films
has AI in it. Yeah, you know, people you're just
using VFX houses and they just don't know. They're calling
it CGI, but really they're all using AI. And then
the next step, you know, once most of your image
or video is AI, you know, it's the character and
most of that will soon be done with motion capture
with AI characters too, because you know, it's easier for
(22:24):
production and more cost effective. So you'll still have actors,
they'll just be acting more comfortably in a rehearsal studio
and be really focused on the craft than anything else.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you
think is relevant totily that you would like to say
about her? Gosh?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I mean, I think you know she was created to
entertain right, I'm in the entertainment industry. I think so
far she has entertained people with the backlash and everything
around it. And yeah, it's just like any human creation.
It's it's a bit of fun and we're we're all
(23:05):
just trying to have a bit of fun. We're not
taking anyone's jobs. And I think I don't think AI
is as scary as people think it isn't, you know.
And then they play with it and then they go, oh,
is this it? And I'm like, yeah, this is it.
It's just it's fine for now.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
This kind of AI.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yes, yes, I wouldn't say that about all AI, and
there are definitely scary things happening with AI, but like this,
this is not the one to worry about.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Where can we watch the show when it comes out?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
So keep your eyes on Instagram. But it'll be you know,
we're really in development. It will take a little bit longer,
but yeah, it'll all be through Instagram and then from there.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Okay, cool, Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate
you taking the time to talk about Tilly. I think
it's fascinating and I think what you're doing is really
interesting and definitely a new corner of entertainment, not a
co optive entertainment. Yes, I think is very mistaken.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah yeah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yeah, that's it for this week for tech Stuff, I'm
(24:34):
Kara Price. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and
Melissa Slaughter. It was executive produced by me Oz Valashan,
Julian Nutter, and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell
for iHeart Podcasts. Kyle Murdoch mixed this episode, and he
also wrote our theme song. Please rate, review, and reach
out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com.
(24:55):
We want to hear from you.
Welcome to tech Stuff. I'm care Price and this is
the story. Our weekly round up episodes will be back soon,
but today I want to share something that rocked my
Hollywood community last September. It's Tilly Norwood and it's an actress.
And yes it is the correct word to use, because
Tilly Norwood is an AI actress. As you can imagine,
(00:37):
there was an uproar. Many A listers spoke out against
Tilly Norwood, and sag after released a statement saying they
didn't recognize Tilly as an actress. And I completely understood
the outrage. What I didn't fully get was why Tilly
Norwood existed in the first place. So I reached out
to the person behind the AI, Eleen Vandervelden. It turns
(00:58):
out Ellen is an actress, an actress who was extremely
good at physics and spent a few years working to
save the world through nuclear fusion, but ultimately the immediacy
of acting won her back. In twenty ten, Eleen started
to build a company called Particle six. Now that company
is a well known AI production studio, and Tillie Norwood
(01:20):
is a Particle six creation with a deliberately stated use.
So let's dive into our conversation. So you want to
create an actress? How do you actually go about doing that?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I know, right, where do you stop?
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah? Where do you begin when you want to actually
create an actress?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
So I went to chat GBT and I said, I hate,
I want to make an AI actress. Did you really stop?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Of course I did. It's like, help me here.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I used it as a sort of brainstorming tool. So
I was like, okay, so I want to make the
SAI actress. I want her to resonate around the world.
I want her to be, you know, resonant with multiple
different communities around the world. I want her to have
the qualities of all the greatest you know what what
is that X factor? You know that she should have?
(02:11):
And the funniest thing I came back with it said
that she should look healthy. Really sure, Yes, she should
look healthy and alive. Yeah yeah, so yeah, I thought
that was a really good tip. And so we just
went through two thousand iterations, I think almost in order
to get the right look. I was very picky, you know.
(02:33):
Originally it came up with this sort of very air
brushed image of what she should look like in order
to become this global superstar. And I really told it
that I wanted her to become super famous. You know
that she had to become the biggest the AI A
lister was the idea, and you know, it came up
with all sorts of plans for her. But then you
sort of filter through and you go, well, that's not
(02:54):
that's not a good plan. That's not a good plan.
That is a good plan. You know, you just work
together with it, and eventually we had just a general
image and then we were working with all sorts of
different tools in order to create the final image and
get the texture of her skin and you know, really
what she looked like and as you steal morphed like
I don't know if you saw the AI commissioner video,
(03:17):
it was like a comedy sketch we did with her.
When we launched her, we'd pitched this beautiful comedy two
sisters running a funeral parlor in Margate, warm, weird, very
BBC two Commissioner said No AI generated one hundred better
ideas in minutes, perfectly aligned to channel data, viewing figures
and optimized for the audience. The winning AI format, I.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Know what your streamed last summer.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
An interactive thriller built from your streaming history and delivery orders,
what and who. So it's just a bit of a
spoof and it's about the TV industry in the UK,
so it's very British. Some of the references and jokes
are very British. But we have loads of different characters,
all very diverse, and this was when we could only
(04:01):
do AI prompting to make them act. Now we could
also use motion capture and we're using loads of actors
in the projects that we're making, and yeah, go have
a look. It's it's funny.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
When you decided to create Tilly, what was your initial
plan for her?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
It was for her to be the AIA lister. I
think she is.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Would you say Tilly is a list in AI? Yes,
she's like the top, She's the kreme de la creme actress.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
She's the Kremlin la creme AI actress.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I think I think I would. I mean, she's definitely
the most known. She's definitely the most known actress.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
But she now has to go and work and show
her acting. So that will be our next release will
be very much focused on that.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I think people might have a hard time wrapping their
head around this just because they're not people who create
digital avatars, Like, how did you choose what she was
going to look like? Gosh?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I mean that really comes down to my acting side
of things to you know, like when you're like I
did so many pilot seasons and you know, auditions, and
it's a very specific type that gets cast, a sort
of a leading female. You know, it's usually actually not
a blonde, right, So I wanted to create the girl
(05:21):
that does get cast, and I wanted her to be
really natural looking, and you know, it's it's almost like
your own Barbie in a way, right I could. I
could create my own Barbie and dress her and you know,
it's all just playing, right, it's creative play. And it's
the same way I would create a character if I
(05:42):
was on stage at an improv show. It's the same
way I would create a character like I did for
the BBC. It's exactly the same process. So it's like
an onion, right, you start with the outside usually so well,
you know, when you when you create a character, you'd
put certain earrings on and you go and she talks
like this, and she has these ear rings and and
then you go down to the outfit and you peel
the layers off, and then you think about the backstory
(06:04):
and the motivation. Why do they say these things and
why they say in this way, and how do they
react to this? And so that peeling of the layers
with Tilly is the exact same process, And we're thinking
about this world that she's living in and who are
her friends, and what's her personality like and her sense
of humor, And it's an endless process of onion peeling.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Will you change the way she looks or she's set?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
She's pretty set. Yeah, she's pretty set. She can get
older or younger, but her image is now so set,
and we can do you think short age? I don't
think she will age unless we want her to for
a specific role. And this is happening quite a lot now.
We get a lot of requests for films where they
want the same actors to play their younger selves or
their older selves. Like that's all possible and great that
(06:52):
they can, right that they don't need to cast child
actors to do that. So yeah, no, I think Also,
I think it's more ethical when it comes to children
or animals, right, Like I've filmed with children before. There's
no need if you can avoid it, that's better, and
the same with animals.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Interesting, I bet some people would have different opinion on that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, yeah, and they can. But a lot of bad
things have happened to kids on sets and sets very safe, yeah,
not very safe environments, So you know they can have
that opinion, but I disagree.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah. So in the CBS Sunday Morning segment that you did,
you taught Tilly acting how do you teach acting to AI?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So back in that time, which is November December twenty
twenty five, it was only still possible to prompt an
AI actor to teach it how to you know, what
to say and how to say it. Now we're doing
way more performance capture.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Oh interesting. Yeah, so who's doing that acting? Me?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Me, me me.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, so you, in a sense, Tilly is imbued with you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Absolutely. I think this is the biggest misconception people have
around the world is that they don't think there's any
human behind AI things across the board, and there's so
much human work that goes on behind the scenes. I mean,
we've got a team of eight people working on the
Tilly verse. You know, it's it's a huge endeavor and
it's a really creative endeavor.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I'm just so interested that you are doing the motion capture. Yeah, yeah,
so that's so. I mean, where are you doing it?
Oh you can just do it on an iPhone in
a studio. No, you can just do it anyway. Oh
you're doing it on an iPhone.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, yeah, you can walk around on an iPhone. Anything's
possible now, Yeah, unbelievable, But that tech has only arrived
like the last month or two. Yeah, through in chat GBT. No, no, no,
We're using all sorts of different programs. So our team
at Particle Sex is really well versed in probably like
(08:58):
fifty different tools, and we have a proprietary workflow that
we use with the different tools in order to achieve
a certain quality. So that's really what people you know,
come to us for and Tilly is just you know,
an example of that. But we do it for commercials,
we do it for film and TV work, you know,
we do it across the board.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And what's your favorite thing that Tilly has done so far?
Like what role?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
So I can't talk about the roles yet because it's
still in you know, in progress, but what she does do,
which I like, I find the prompting quite funny with
the AI acting because you know, anyone who's worked with
the eye knows that it doesn't really listen to you
very well. So I like the unexpectedness of it. And
I once asked her to dance in blue jeans and
(09:45):
she was just in her underwear. She once I got
her flying on a on a flamingo and she turned
around to me and she goes, take that, Hollywood. I
was like, I didn't tell you to say that.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
She she just said that untrained. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is
it weird seeing something that was trained on you? So
she's not technically trained on me. We're training her brain
where we're creating her brain, So it's like a creative
writing exercise, right, It's built on top of an LLM,
and we give her guardrails, and we give her morals
(10:21):
and values.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
It's very much like a child. You know, you bring
up a child and you send them off into the
world at eighteen, you go, good luck. Yeah, And it's
just sort of the same with Chilly. Just knows shorter
amount of time. So eventually we'll send her off with
her brain and hope for the best. We're testing her
a lot, as you can imagine, is.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
It uncanny to see her with the motion capture.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yes, yeah, it's quite a lot of my friends they go,
oh yeah, I can totally see you in her.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Is it uncanny for you?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I mean, it's no different to watching myself on screen
as an actor, which I guess you're used to. It
is always weird, yeah, I mean, but people have got
a lot more used to that now because they're watching
themselves on screen in video calls all the time, so
it's less weird than it used to be.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I think after the break, Whileen didn't think Tilly nor
would would become that controversial stay with us. So the
(11:40):
SAG union has insisted that Tilly be referred to as
an avatar or a computer generated character. How do you
feel about that and not a real actor?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, she is a computer generated character. Yeah, And I
totally agree with SAG on all of that. The film
You Know Avatar, where they Zary Saldana plays a character
like it's exactly the same, that she's just the same
as Darth Vado or any other character that humans have
created before her, And the only difference is is that
I called her an AI actor because I didn't want
(12:13):
Tilly to be limited to only playing one character. So
the beauty is she can play multiple different roles and
that's also part of her story going forward.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
So you don't want her to only be Tilly as
an actress.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
No, no, she's already playing loads of different roles. It's
really fun.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah. Yeah, so in that way, she's not just an avatar.
She's an actress.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yes, yes she is, but she's also a computer generated
Like we never shied away from the fact that she's AI.
She's one hundred percent computer generated, nothing else. And yes,
we direct her with prompts and we direct her with
my emotion capture. But yeah, let's not say she's anything
else than computer generated.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
So obviously, when Tilly was first announced, there was a
lot of backlash from Hollywood. Yeah did you expect this.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Because we'd launched her in July in the UK with
the comedy Sketch AI commissioner, and you know, everyone thought
it was quite fun and there was absolutely no backlash
whatsoever because loads of all the production companies in the
UK were using AI and they were like this is cool, Like,
you guys are clearly like leading the front on this,
(13:21):
and you know, people were coming to us because most studios,
most companies are embracing AI here because we get small
budgets and we want max value on screen, so you know,
all the help we can get in order to achieve that.
And I was showing Tilly around sort of to educate
the creative community. It's not like we were taking any
(13:43):
jobs away from real actors. That was never never the plan.
It was never anything we did. And so but I
felt compelled to show the crazy community what was possible,
right because I think what's even worse is digging your
head in the sand and not knowing what the text doing,
so that you can't make any decisions over where the
creative community is going to go next, and then it's
(14:05):
going to be imposed on you by by the tech
community as to what happens next. So I was doing
a lot of trade shows and I was showing Tilly around,
and then obviously the American audience got hold of it
with this deadline article and they just went crazy thinking
that she was going to take all the jobs because
she looked so real, and I totally get it, like I,
(14:25):
you know, you going from zero to one hundred. A
lot of these people had never seen anything AI generated,
and suddenly you see Tilly, You're like, oh, my goodness,
you know, I get it.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
I mean it's also a little bit absurd to think
that anybody, any one entity could take all of the jobs.
It's kind of like a new actress coming on the
scene and being like, well, Jennifer, we should stop Jennifer
Lawrence because she's going to take all the jobs. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I think my message was clear, right, like, let's be
aware of this because AI actors are possible now, yeah,
and so how do we control that and how we
do we have a say in this going forward as
actors ourselves, so also as an actor myself. It's a
(15:09):
way to future proof, right. So I'm telling other actors like, hey,
you can create an AI digital twin of yourself that
you can control and you own the copyright too. Or
you could you know, become an actor that controls with
motion capture. These AI characters, Like, they're going to be
loads of new different types of jobs, you know. I
(15:30):
think there's a lot of fear out there where people
are like, oh, it's going to take all the jobs away,
Like we are hiring loads of people, there's loads of
new jobs. It's it's exciting. It's the biggest boom I've
seen in our industry in the last ten years.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
When Tilly was first introduced to the US, you said
that you were looking for an agent for her. Does
she have an agent yet?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So we decided to not go with an agency. We
were talking to loads of them because we felt like, actually,
there should be an agent at one point that specializes
in these AI characters, which I think there will come. Also,
she doesn't really need an agent right now anymore because
she became so famous. She didn't need an agent anymore
to get jobs because there was just an influx, massively
(16:15):
overwhelming inbound reaction.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So yeah, so she does not have an agent now.
She doesn't need one. She does not need one, and
apparently she's turned down film and TV offers.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yes, yes, so we you know, we didn't set out
for her to be replacing real actors in real roles
right now at all. That's that's never the plan. So
any people that come to us with like, you know, oh,
you know, we wanted to cast Jennifer Lawrence for this role,
but actually it could be Tilly, Like, We're like, no,
that's not the plan. Yeah, However, if there's a role
(16:51):
that's like an AI character, in the script or something
that makes sense, then obviously we would might consider it.
But really, she's living in her AI world and we're
creating that whole AI world as we speak.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
I see. So she's not like, we're not going to
see her winning any Oscars soon unless there was a
new category in the Oscars.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, I think a new category would work. But also,
you know, if people are making AI films, you know,
there's loads of great AI short films out there that
are fully AI. She could be in them right absolutely,
because we were never going to have a real actress
being them unless it was a digital twin, which is
the equivalent of Tilly.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
That's so interesting. I don't know. I'm just so enamored of.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
People have a lot to get their heads around. I've
been thinking about this for three years and people are like, what, No, It's.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Just interesting because I think the original backlash was this idea,
and it's people being somewhat short sighted about the fact
that an AI actress is going to replace real actresses.
But what you're saying is very much on the contrary,
which is like, this is an AI actress who is
entering a new category of actor.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Correct, But it's hard for people to understand. Right, it's
all new, like it's going to take time. So she's
not doing live action, no, no, no, we've always said
and that was in our original statement as well, like
she's only in AI content full AI content.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Is your intent to create more AI characters like Tilly?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes, so our plan is to create a whole universe
and they all have you know, they're all characters in there.
So we're creating a whole TV show for Tilly really
yeah who really?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah? Yeah yeah yeah yeah, So a TV show meaning
like Seinfeld for Tilly. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I don't want to give it away too much, but yes,
there's a whole load of new stuff coming out with
Tilly in it. And she's also doing lots of projects.
So we've got loads of directors that approach us they
want to work with Tilly because they want to learn
about AI. You know, we have costume designers, production designers,
and we all let them work with Tilly. It's like
they called the Tilly Blayground. Let them work with Tilly
(18:58):
and that way they can discover how to use AI
in their workflow and reskill, retool them for this new,
this new this, it's an AI revolution, really that we're
going through, and it's a new AI realm that we
all have to work in. We all have to understand
how it works.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
If you had a time machine, would you create Tilly again?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
And would you launch would you launch her in the
same way?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I mean, yeah, I suppose yes it. You know, like
as much as publicly there's been this backlash, you know,
creatively and privately, everyone has come to us because we're's
sort of the leaders in this space. I would say
we're probably one of the best AI production studios. I
think people saw the quality we could do. You know,
(19:42):
it's it's been great for us. We've been approached by everybody.
It's fantastic. So you know that a backlash can be
a positive thing.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
It Also, I think the backlash was a little bit
shortsighted in not understanding what you were actually trying to
do with Tilly.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, they just saw a head and thought something when
really they didn't delve deeper into it. But also I
can see why it might have been a shock for people,
right like the zero to one hundred thing with AI,
and I understood it totally. But people adapt very quickly,
and you can see that now, you know, We're three
(20:19):
four months on and the conversation has completely shifted again,
and everyone's like, how do we use AI? You know,
and we're seeing amazing creative projects being made with AI.
You know all the super Bowl ads where AI.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
There was you know much AI and the Super Bowl
ads it was incredible.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
So you know, it's it's coming. There's not you know,
there's nothing we can do about it. It's coming, So
let's think about how we approach it ethically and do
it right.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Do you foresee a film that is completely AI generated
that could be nominated for an asker? Yes?
Speaker 2 (20:59):
The Academy has said they don't discriminate against it, right,
so you know, it's still about storytelling and with or
without AI.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
So yes, I think.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I think within a year's time, there won't be a
film that hasn't got some element of AI in it, right,
whether it's in post production, whether it's in just voice cleanup,
you know, an audio tidy, you know, whether the production
teams have used chat, GPT or Gemini. Of course, like
everyone's going to be using AI. It's going to be
like electricity.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
It is different though to have an actual character that's
AI generated, then to use AI to facilitate production.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So we started just having AI to facilitate production. Right
when we started three years ago, it was all about
optimizing the workflow and not it wasn't visible on screen
what we were doing with AI, but you very quickly
moved to So it's a gradual process, right. So first
it's just in production workflows. Then it's in post production,
(22:01):
which I mean most of the post production of films
has AI in it. Yeah, you know, people you're just
using VFX houses and they just don't know. They're calling
it CGI, but really they're all using AI. And then
the next step, you know, once most of your image
or video is AI, you know, it's the character and
most of that will soon be done with motion capture
with AI characters too, because you know, it's easier for
(22:24):
production and more cost effective. So you'll still have actors,
they'll just be acting more comfortably in a rehearsal studio
and be really focused on the craft than anything else.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you
think is relevant totily that you would like to say
about her? Gosh?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I mean, I think you know she was created to
entertain right, I'm in the entertainment industry. I think so
far she has entertained people with the backlash and everything
around it. And yeah, it's just like any human creation.
It's it's a bit of fun and we're we're all
(23:05):
just trying to have a bit of fun. We're not
taking anyone's jobs. And I think I don't think AI
is as scary as people think it isn't, you know.
And then they play with it and then they go, oh,
is this it? And I'm like, yeah, this is it.
It's just it's fine for now.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
This kind of AI.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yes, yes, I wouldn't say that about all AI, and
there are definitely scary things happening with AI, but like this,
this is not the one to worry about.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Where can we watch the show when it comes out?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
So keep your eyes on Instagram. But it'll be you know,
we're really in development. It will take a little bit longer,
but yeah, it'll all be through Instagram and then from there.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Okay, cool, Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate
you taking the time to talk about Tilly. I think
it's fascinating and I think what you're doing is really
interesting and definitely a new corner of entertainment, not a
co optive entertainment. Yes, I think is very mistaken.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah yeah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yeah, that's it for this week for tech Stuff, I'm
(24:34):
Kara Price. This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and
Melissa Slaughter. It was executive produced by me Oz Valashan,
Julian Nutter, and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell
for iHeart Podcasts. Kyle Murdoch mixed this episode, and he
also wrote our theme song. Please rate, review, and reach
out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com.
(24:55):
We want to hear from you.
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