April 16, 2025 • 38 mins
Jen Statsky is a comedian, writer, and producer who’s worked on some of TV’s biggest comedies like The Good Place, Parks & Recreation and Broad City. Most recently, she’s been behind the scenes as one of the co-creators of the hit show Hacks. Jen sits down with Karah to talk about how writing and producing for TV has changed in the face of accelerating AI, the “second-screening” phenomenon, and the optimization of streaming services.
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week
on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with
someone who has a front row seat to the most
fascinating things happening in and around tech today. We are
joined by Jen Statsky, one of the writers and creators
of the hit MAC series Hacks. Jen got her start
(00:33):
as a writer on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. Then
she joined the writer's room for some of TV's biggest comedies,
including Parks and Recreation, The Good Place, and the web
series turned comedy Central sitcom broad City That's the cult
favorite from Abby Jacobson an Alama Lazer. Then, back in
twenty nineteen, she and her co creators Lucianello and Paul w.
(00:53):
Downs pitched Max, the show about two comedians of very
different generations navigating a changing industry. That show is Hacks,
a runaway success since it premiered in twenty twenty one.
Season four of Hacks is out now and I had
the great pleasure of sitting down with Jen to pick
her brain about the changing entertainment industry and how things
like smartphones and chat GPT or g as I like
(01:17):
to call her, are changing the game for writers Hi, Jen,
Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hi Kara, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I mean, we're going to get into what the show
is about this season and how good it is, but
I want to talk to you more as like Jen
and your experience early on as a comedian and how
technology has played into your career as a comedian.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Broad City was a show that was started on YouTube, right, Yeah, yeah,
you were discovered as a comic for late night on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
You can't talk that much shit about.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Technology, no, no, no, I'd be pulling up the ladder
behind me if I went off on how technology is
bad and bad for creative yet.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
No.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I mean, I think my rise in television is a
very interesting like decade because my first writing job at
Latina and Jimmy Fallon came about because it was twenty
eleven and it was the time when people were writing
jokes on Twitter, and that was like a big way
that people were getting discovered. And that is actually something
(02:25):
that I loved about it. It was very much so
like the democratization of joke writing that like anybody could
write a funny joke and write a bunch of funny
jokes and then someone who worked in Hollywood and TV
could see it and be like, oh, this person might
be really good at this professionally. And yes, Brad City
was always we still call it a web series.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, it felt like web series when it was on
Comedy Central. Election. Yeah, I mean that in a very possible.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Way too. Yeah, like it it speaks to how technology
and the internet can kind of go around institutions in
a way that is helpful, like abing Alana, we're doing
upright citizens Trigade Theater in New York at the time,
which is where I met them and where Paul Lucci
and we all met. But they weren't having and they've
spoken in this they weren't having the success in the
(03:16):
system that they kind of wish they had had. They
weren't getting on a Harald team, which was like the
house team that performed every week. They weren't kind of
one of the prominent people in UCB. But they found
each other and they had this unique chemistry and they said, like,
why don't we just make something? And so that's why
they did it. They started as a web series, and
(03:37):
what's cool is even though it was a web series,
they treated it as important as if it was a
show and they believed it could be great, and that's
why they said, like, hey, we want to ask Gamy
Polar to be in this episode. And some people probably
would have been like, oh, we can't ask Gamy Polar
to be in our like little web series, you know.
And she did it, and she loved it, and she said, hey,
(03:57):
I want to produce this, and that's like what led
to it getting on television. But it started as a
web series because the traditional path wasn't necessarily working, so
they had to do it for themselves.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I mean, and you make a show that is very
much institutionally back to now. But I do feel like
there is a return to independent television making because we're
in a similar place again where like institutions are failing television.
They're not failing all television, but institutions are failing a
lot of people who want to be creators, who I
(04:31):
think deserve to be creators. And there seems to be
this return to this idea that like there shouldn't really
be such a barrier to entry for getting people to
watch things. And so now that this fifteen year span
has gone by where places like Twitter and YouTube really
were like foundational for indie comedy. Do you feel as though,
(04:52):
as someone who is still very much like involved in
indie comedy, that this might be a place again where
people can thrive.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, I mean, I hope. So. I think the thing
that's scary is there's a little bit of the pipeline
that has been disrupted. Like when I came up, the
existence of a network like Comedy Central was so important
and wonderful that they were doing original shows because it
allowed something like brad City, which started as a web series,
(05:22):
to be greenlit at a very low cost and a
very hey we're going to give these two women who
are so funny and talented but have never done anything,
We're going to give them a shot. And it was
relatively low stakes, I think, you know. And now, one
thing that I find to be scary is that for
the barrier to entry, like you're saying for television, it's
(05:45):
really high to go to one of these streamers, to
go to one of these networks and say, hey, here's
this idea, please give us the money to make it.
It feels like there is an incredible amount of pressure
on it to be successful. Like that's really hard, especially
in comedy drama is hard to it's hard to get
any show picked up, but like comedy that exists in
(06:06):
that kind of Comedy Central version of a Workaholics Abroad CEAO,
kind of like down and dirty new voices that you've
never heard before that are getting their chance at a platform.
It's now really hard I think for people on the
business side to take a risk on those people, or
at least it's harder because there's so much pressure on
(06:26):
shows to be successful right out the gate because of
this streaming model. There was a guy, an executive at
a streamer. He's no longer there. We had a lunch
and I was like, what are you guys like looking
for in comedy and he was like, honestly, hits And
I was like, sure, yeah, great, But I think he
(06:48):
was being truthful in that, like he's like, it's really hard,
I think to get places to invest into a show
if it isn't immediately drawing eyeballs because there's such pressure
to keep subscribers, and it's like, okay, get rid of it.
Do another one, you know, which is to.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Say, how the hell do you know what's going to
be a hit? I mean, I just that as a
model for how to pick up TV when you think
about Hacks, which maybe on its face a show that
is sort of invested in telling the stories of Joan
Rivers and Philis Diller and Elaine mend Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
But it was like when we pitched, it was like
two women talking. I don't know, I'm not so sure
about this.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
And yet you know it's really worked. So yeah, I mean,
I just think it's to me, it's riskier to make
your bets on just like the fact that something's gonna
be a hit, than to make your bets on something
that you like, right.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
But I think it's relevant to what you guys talk
about in the sense that I do think the influence
of tech and streaming becoming the dominant way people consume
television kind of has led us to that place, even
more so than the old model of broadcast TV or
or it's like show but people buy a cable. But
(08:02):
you know, I don't know. I think that it's relevant
because it's a result of technology coming in and disrupting
things well.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And also, nobody who worked in television on the creator
side asked for the business to become a technology business,
which it now is. I mean, I always say that,
like Netflix is Regina George and all of the other
streamers are like Caddy Herron and Amanda Sayfreed, like in
(08:29):
the sense of there is one streamer and then there's
YouTube and there's TikTok, and in that way, it's not
the TV business anymore. It's not the movie business anymore.
It's the Netflix business. And then you have a video
platform and a social media platform that like dictate the
whole business.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Like they all, whether they needed to or not, chase
Netflix off this cliff. Netflix is the king of the castle,
and everybody else's is like trying to keep up. And
it is really interesting to be on the creative side
of it. Like running a show, you're on both the
creative and business side of it, obviously more so the creative.
(09:11):
But I see a lot of pain within the creative
community because no one asked for it to become a
tech business. It's fundamentally changed everything, and yet people still
came out and have this dream of working in a
Hollywood that doesn't really exist anymore.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
After the break. More from Jenstatski, co creator and writer
of the hit show Hacks, stay with us. I want
to go into Hacks a little bit because Hacks on
(10:00):
HBO Max, which isn't Netflix.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Which which isn't even HBO Max. I believe it's just MAXX.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Sorry, it's Max. It's Max with the black background. At
least it's Matt Black. I don't know, it's not.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
It's it's kind of like silver machine to it, Like
it does have its a Sheene, not to be confused
with Sheen, where I buy a lot of my clothes.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
So with Netflix, there seems to be no problem from
the top to the bottom to say, look, guys, people
are watching other stuff while they're watching your shows, Like,
you better start getting your act together, because people are
watching YouTube and tiktoks about your shows while they're watching
(10:42):
your shows, Like there better be an explosion in the
first minute. Somebody better be moving to Paris in the
first ten seconds of your show in order for people
to keep watching. Like, as a creator, how much are
you considering the various forms of technology that are happening
simultaneously while anybody is watching hacks?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Right, Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, the
truth is is that you're both very aware of it
and worried about it, but also trying to at least
in our experience, quiet that noise and not let it
interfere with the creative process. No one asked for Hollywood
to be changed into tech business. We are still trying
to create shows in the same way that we used to,
(11:27):
and it's a very interesting conversation. There's you know, some
reports that Netflix has asked people to write dialogue in
a way where the characters are out loud speaking I'm
going to go to the store, and you know, saying
what they're doing, so that a viewer, if they're on
their phone, can also just be hearing that and absorbing
(11:48):
it as a second screen experience. Now, I find this
topic fascinating because never in a million years has anyone
come to us spoken of that. Like the reason I
love of being at HBO, Slash Max is Casey Boys
and Sarahbbry and everybody. It still very much embodies what
I think people think about HBO and the heyday of
(12:11):
like Sopranos, where it's like very creator first. Like the
idea that they would come to us and talk to
us about a second screen experience just I can't imagine it.
And as far as other streamers, I have read the
articles and I have heard anecdotal stories about it, but
I've yet to hear any like direct like, yes, this
happened to me. They said, please write dialogue in this way.
(12:33):
So I'm very curious if it's truly like a directive
or is it merely bad dialogue that slips through the
cracks and then people are retrofitting like, oh, this must
be what's happening because sometimes that, you know. So I
write by a dialogue all the time, and then as
I rewrite, I'm like, oh, no, how about do it
(12:55):
how a human speaks? St like, So it's possible because
I and they would never, of course cop to it
if a streamer was telling people to do that. I
did anecdotally hear this, and this is true because it
came from someone who said it happened to them. That
there was a process of they were making a show
(13:16):
and they were reviewing the pilot. They were doing notes
for the pilot, and the streamer said, Hey, in this
dinner scene, could someone order ice cream? And like they
were like, you're they're already a dinner, Like, they're at
the table, there's food. Could just they could there be
ice cream or someone order ice cream or there be
I screaming, screaming The person was like why, and they
(13:36):
were like, from our research, if there's a dessert in
the first ten minutes, people tend to keep watching. And
so for me, yeah, I love dessert.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
I wish there was a cake in the beginning of
The Sopranos. I would have actually the wire, maybe I
would have finished.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
The Yeah, in adolescence, he should be in the holding
room eating a sheet cake. But that is a story
that I did hear that I know to be which
is crazy and hacks very much. So we have an
episode this season that delves into this very problem. Is
that as Hollywood becomes more of a technology based industry,
(14:12):
we will get this tremendous amount of data about how
people consume TV and what they respond to. And it's
really tricky because if you're running Netflix, if you're running Amazon,
if you're running one of these streamers, it is your
job to just keep people on your platform and people
watching and people subscribing. So, from the purely business side
(14:35):
of it, if you know that ice cream keeps people watching,
don't you have some responsibility to your shareholders to be like,
let's get some more ice cream in there.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Well, and that looking at the not even the viewer,
but looking at the product as data as like a
data set I think is really interesting, and that is
something when Broad City was on YouTube, viewers mattered. I
think viewership always mattered on YouTube of like how many
views does this have? But this idea that like each
(15:07):
little point of connection that a viewer has to a
product that is coming out of this technology company is
now of such importance, where like I just don't think
there was like this sense of datatization of both content
and viewership up until I don't know, ten years ago.
And that's I don't know. I'm not saying anything new
in that regard, but I do think I have some
(15:30):
empathy for people who work for a technology company versus
people who work for a studio. You know, You're right,
It's like there was always and I used to think
about this all the time, Like I did punch Up
on a friend's studio movie, and so I was like
working on this like kind of big budget comedy, and
I remember being at some of the test screenings, like
studios have always done test screenings and had responses, and
(15:52):
even that I remember being like.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
I don't know, like how much of this is good
or not? To go in and find a bunch of
people in a mall in Las Vegas, ask them to
come see this movie and really change the movie based
on their responses. So there's always been a level of
gathering data and retrofitting the product to it, which is
(16:15):
the very difficulty of making movies and TV being both
art and commerce. But it's like it's gone so much
further with technology, Like you're saying, like it's like on
steroids now, because it's every single inflection point, it's, oh,
this is when they turn it off, this is when
they stop watching, this is what they rewatch over and over,
(16:35):
and so there's just all this data that is useful
to these companies, of course, and it's not so insiduous
that they're coming to us and saying like, hey, this
is how we want you to make this show. But
it's not hard to imagine a world.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Where it is I watch this season of Hacks, which
I think is really great. I'm not going to endorse it.
I was not paid to endorse it. I just want
to say that I.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Know, well, will you if I pay you, will you
endorse it?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well, I'll endorse it right here. And there's absolutely no
bitcoin exchange. There's a terriff on the endorsement. Actually, but
the season does deal with this idea of art and commerce.
In fact, there's a line I think that is said
by Helen Hunt that's like, what is your carpool karaoke?
So from your point of view as a show, and
(17:23):
her like, what is this season about? And how does
a question like that fit into what the season is about?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
The best way I can describe it is season three,
we were focusing on Deborah going after her dream job
with underline under dream, and this season you get your
dream job and the word underlined his job. And that's like,
how it feels to me is that now it is
the rubber meets the road of what does it mean
(17:51):
to get your dream? And what does it mean when
your dream is a dream of an industry of the
past and now it is your dream in twenty twenty
five when as everything we're saying, technology and the way
the world has gone and capitalism has fundamentally altered that industry.
(18:11):
And to your question before yes and the second episode
Helen Hunt says to them, what's your carpool karaoke? You
need to expand the brand equity of Late Night, And
for us that was really speaking to this tremendous pressure
put on TV and movies and late night included now
(18:32):
to exist beyond just the product itself. Like there, it
feels like there is such pressure on these companies to
be valued as a tech company and maximize growth for
in profit for their shareholders that you can feel that
downlad pressure that again, it's not just enough to be
(18:55):
a good TV show. You do need to be a hit,
Like what are you what value are you bringing to
this technology platform?
Speaker 1 (19:02):
You guys cast people who've I've found on TikTok, Right, So,
like I know about Robbie because I know so Robbie
Hoffman has a I'm not gonna give it away, but
like has a great role on this season. Jake Shane
great role on this season. These are two people who
I know from the Internet, which I think is really
interesting when we talk about like the positive effects of
the Internet on comedy. Yes, you also have this amazing
(19:25):
storyline where TikTok plays in in a very pivotal way
and I'm wondering, like, is being online a big part
of being in the writer's room. And then secondly, if
you can talk a little bit about the way in
which technology plays into Late Night and that storyline, it
is something that inevitably has to be considered as an
(19:48):
online medium, even though it exists on terrestrial television.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, totally. I mean, I think what you're hitting on
is exactly right, which is that we also want to
be conscious of the fact that we do consume the Internet,
and we do love the Internet, and there are good
things about it. And like you know, Meg Stalter who
plays Killa, we found her on Instagram, and like you said,
(20:13):
Jake Shane, Robbie Hoffman, all these people came to us
through that. And so again in my experience in comedy,
I have discovered some people that make me how laughing
more than anyone. You know. Chris Fleming is a comedian
who's special I produced a couple of years ago and
who I still work with, and I know of him
(20:34):
because I saw his stand up on the Internet and
I was like, this person is unbelievably funny to me.
And so it wouldn't be fair of us to just
make a season that's going like did the Internet ruin everything?
You know? Like that's that would be a very Pollyanna
take that isn't true. And so I think we also
this season are exploring, like are very at least for myself,
(20:56):
like my own conflicted feelings about it, because I get
a lot from the Internet. I discover new talent and voices,
and that's incredibly helpful, and yet the economy of attention
like it it pulls my attention in such a fierce,
troublesome way that is like scary to me.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Well, and it also feels like television isn't the gold
standard anymore, Like the gold standard is virality, which you know,
which is part of my next question. You know, you
have people like Evan ross Katz who the minute of
show airs, there's like the memification of whatever the best
lines on those shows were. And I wonder, because I
(21:37):
have you here, like, honestly, to what extent.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Do you write to the.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Clickability?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
It's not possible. It must write what you mean, right
what Evan memes. It's really like it's crazy making you
think about it too much. You like really have to
try to tune it out and not think that way.
I also feel like one thing that the Internet is
(22:09):
really good about is authenticity and sniffing out things that
are inauthentic. And so I think if you right to
the meme, so to speak, or we were trying to
make something go viral. I think that you would smell
that and people would feel that, and then it doesn't
take off like That's that's one thing about the Internet
(22:33):
that I do really appreciate and love, Like there's an
unpredictability to it. Things take off and catch fire and
like hit some kind of like center of someone's brain
and you just don't know why, and you can't really
reverse engineer it.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
It does kind of make you still believe that people
don't know what they want. And those are people who
are on the internet.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
You could look at so many quote unquote hits of
the last few years, even like the Bear, And I
think that's the danger in having all this data and technology,
because the tech industry can be so specific and data
driven and go like, well, this is the exact point
at which someone turns this off, So that must mean
(23:16):
it's not good if this person you know, you don't know.
That's the thing that's really lovely about creating things is
you have to just trust the person creating it in
their brain and their heart. And and I think that
as we delve more into this tech world, it becomes
in danger of people thinking they can know better that
we can, like because tech does know better in a way.
(23:39):
We're all like, you know, little like lab rats, and
they know that when I see the like red dot
on my screen, I'm gonna click it because like it
activates my dopamine or whatever, and so that's really scary.
But like there's a creative aspect of an unknowability that
is really important.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
This might be a huge leap, but like, in a way,
technology is a bit like humor to say, like the
very humorous person says I know better, right, Like Freud
says that, like humor is the triumph of the ego, right,
like it will protect me from the pain of my life,
right right, And then and then love says, no, you
(24:20):
can't use humor for everything, Like the triumph of your
life is actually like your humanity. And like I do
think that HACKS really is about the way in which
humor is a triumph, but it's also about how humor
can't do everything.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yes, yes, totally well. And I think what you're pointing
out is exactly right, that there's something in humor and
I've certainly used it in my life to protect myself
from feeling things at times like humor puts you sometimes
at a distance because you're observing, you're not experiencing the thing.
(24:56):
And I think what you're pointing out is that it
is this, it's this desire for control and hacks. You're
exactly right. It is both about how comedy is so
important and can save us, and yet you also need
to feel the feelings and give into the unpredictability of
life because otherwise you're just trying to protect yourself. You're
(25:16):
ultimately trying to protect yourself from dying, which you can't.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah. I just I think that there's like there's hubris
on both sides. There's hubris on the sides of technology
companies who believe that they can outsmart and predict what
people want. And there's also hubris on the side of
the creative who like believes that their own creativity can
kind of trump all.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah, And we really tried to express through the Hell
and Hunk character this season, like we felt it would
be pat and not truthful if it was just like
the brave creatives against the capitalist monster executives. It's like
that's not interesting because that's not truthful either. Like, there
are great people on both sides of this trying to
(26:02):
navigate this intersection, and you're exactly right. It's like the
fact of the matter is, I can't tell you that
I don't like going on TikTok and watching people dance.
I do like there's something just visceral and human. I
don't know what it is, but like there's a reason
people love it. It taps into something.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
After the break. Why Hacks writer and co creator Jen
Statsky is concerned about the effects of AGI on her
industry Stay with us. Paul Schrader is a guy who
(26:55):
said that chat GPT is something that could help ID eight.
I'm sure you were sort of following the ways in
which the strike addressed, you know, algorithmically driven creativity or
as we say, generative AI would affect the creativity of
(27:15):
the business. So my question is twofold, which is one like,
how did the WGA address this during and after the strikes?
And two can AI be funny?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
My take on AI is really that quote that's like
I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so
that I can do art and writing, not for AI
to do my art and writing so that I can
do my laundry and dishes. I don't want AI to
come into the realm of creation, and it will inevitably
(27:54):
and it already has, so it doesn't matter what I want,
it's going to happen. But just speaking as a creative
person who has done this for I guess like fifteen
years now, I never loan for a machine to give
me any I do laan for a machine to give
an answer. In the worst parts of writing, you're like, God,
someone just tell me the answer. But it would to
(28:17):
me really make the process feel hollow. And the show
Hacks is very much so about the joy of creating
with someone else, and that process in many ways is
the reward, not the end result or the acclaim or
the rewards. And so if you take the joy out
(28:40):
of that process and the humanity out of the very
process of creating the thing, I just worry that it
feels very hollow.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
So you are not tempted by G, as I like
to call her.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I am really not tempted by G in a way
that I will be the old man like screaming, get
off my lawn, like you know, the industry will pass
me by, and I'll be like Jen, you gotta use G,
you gotta gen you got Jen, you haven't worked in
fifteen years. You gotta use G. I just I don't know.
(29:15):
I mean, like, what is Paul Shrew What is his
example of how it could be useful? How can an idea?
Speaker 1 (29:21):
I think it's idea generation, Like, oh, you know Hannah
and deb are in Vegas. What is something that they
would do in Vegas that could be really fun? So
in this way, I don't want to be again like
Pollyanna a butt and be like no, I would never
be cause like in some ways it's like, okay.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
When we write that. There's an episode this season where
Deborneva go back to my face.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I call her hand. I'm sorry, Deborneva, Hannah's Hannah and
I'll tell you what.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
You know who does that all the time? Is Gene Smart?
In scene she'll be like Hannah, and I'm like, there
is an argument to be made, you know. When we
wrote that episode, of course we're googling, like Las Vegas
things to do. It's not like I don't use the
Internet in my writing. So I guess one might say,
how different is it? Then it's just.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Google lowercase G.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I use lower CASEG, not the big G. Yeah, but
one could argue like, well, what's the difference about using
the big G. You're already like using the internet to
provide you with answers about that. What is the difference?
I just it's to me, it's such a slippery slope,
and I think I get really scared because I don't
(30:34):
think humans will put on the guardrails to not let
it get out of control.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
So conversely, there's the issue of training algorithms on pre
existing scripts. Yeah, and training algorithms on now subtitles, right,
so they can actually collect subtitles from shows and movies
and use those subtitles to train algorithms that then will
(31:02):
do what I guess, build better models. I would imagine
it's sort of boring for me to even ask your
opinion on that. I just wonder as a member of
the WGA, as far as moving forward post strike is concerned, like,
can you talk a little bit about what's been going
on and the conversations that have been had.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think the language that we were
advocating for was that like a script. This is funny,
It's like a basically like a script needed to be
written by a human being. That was like the language
being put in the contract.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Those are your guardrails.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Those are the guardrails. Yeah, and I actually am a
Writer's Guild caption and well there and here's here's the
problem here. I missed the meeting last night, so can
you imagine how much delicious hot off the press information
for you? But I'm a delinquent union rep. But it's
(32:00):
it seems crazy to me that companies would be able
to take this tremendous amount of material owned by the studios,
owned by the networks and just use it for their
own profit. And there has to be some I don't
know why. I have no idea. I think what's really
scary is I have no idea where the studios and
the networks and companies are at with it in terms
(32:22):
of it seems like the type of thing that they
would so viciously go after of like you're using our
copywritten material. But I also think they probably see the
writing on the wall that they're all going to have
to get into the AI space themselves. So I have
no idea, to be honest, like what the higher level
(32:43):
conversations are. But as a creative, it seems insane to
me that you can't just take a show and throw
it up on your YouTube channel, like they go after
that so viciously to take down copyright materials. So to me,
this feeling is very similar, and I think there is
(33:03):
like you know, I believe Shonda Rhimes and some other
people there's like correct me on that if I'm wrong,
But I believe some artists are coming together to like
pursue legal action about it.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
They are.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
And so to your point about like creativity and the
purpose of creating art, especially TV being the collaboration not
actually the product, I think that's where something like chat
GPT gets you in a little bit of trouble, even
if you're someone who's like a solo screenwriter, that there
(33:36):
has to be at a certain point a level of
you know, sort of interaction and toiling. What I think
is problematic about the intersection between artificial intelligence and creativity
is that it becomes a little frictionless, and that is
where things start getting boring.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yes, it's a good it's a very good point. And
if someone was asking this, they were talking to me
about like season four of US show, it's really easy
for a show to get like complacent and not grow
or not or just feel stagnant. And one thing I
said was that I think that it's something we really
have to our advantages, that there are three creators and
(34:18):
we are constantly checking each other and being like have
we done that before? Is that? Could that be better?
Like there is we are in a constant dialogue about it,
and there is toiling there, and there is friction there,
and it makes it better. And exactly to your point,
it will be frictionless if you just go to the
TG and say what should Deborahn have a fight about
(34:40):
this episode and it gives you the answer and you
go okay.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Like that.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
That's that is exactly. It's like sad because so much
of this is like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Like there is an element of that to storytelling and
Hollywood that I feel we're in an era of like
we fix something that wasn't really broken.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
You know what it is? It's that in a technological age,
optimization is the point, yes, And if optimization is the point,
then everything is pushed into the tent of optimization.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
That's exactly it. Technology tells us we must optimize our
life in every single way, and you just can't optimize creativity.
You can't go what is the most efficient, easiest, best
way to make art. You just can't like that. It's
it's contrary to the point of it. And so I
think that's exactly the thing that worries me is that
(35:40):
if we go, if we follow this to the logical extension,
does everything go to the point of optimization? Does every
show get put through this filter of but what will
get the most eyeballs on? What will get the most subscribers?
Because we are trying to optimize profit for the company,
you know, like who is stopping that?
Speaker 1 (35:58):
I think we all are stopping it. I think humor
sort of acts as this way to say, look, this
can't affect me that much. And I think why humor
has such a lasting influence on society and culture is that,
like we get to make jokes about optimization. That is
where humor plays in, and that's where you get to
tell people, guys, this is weird. Like I don't need
(36:19):
to optimize my steps. I don't need to optimize my sleep.
People have been been done sleeping, you know, like we figured.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Out sleeping for the most We're like we're good on
sleeping totally. Yes, Yeah, that's it. That is a that
is a optimistic way to look at it that humor. Yes,
it detaches you a bit, but in the detachment you
can point out the absurdity of it in a way
that perhaps makes people think differently about it and maybe
behave differently.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And I think that's where Ava ultimately gets to play
as a character on Hacks, where it's like, this is
someone who is deeply feeling but also is like deeply
disturbed by the way things are, where Deborah is more like,
this is reality and I still love being funny, you know. Yeah, yes,
(37:14):
And that's where I think they really but reads.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
That's where they but but that's where they also make
each other better, because it's a Ava sees things in
this way and is disturbed by it and says like, well,
what if it could be better? And Deborah says, but yes,
but we still have to do the work. So let's
figure out a way to do the work.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Jen, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Oh my gosh, thank you. It's such so lovely to
talk to you.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
That's it for this week for tech stuff. I'm caar Price.
This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Adriana Tapia.
It was executive produced by me Oswa Washian and Kate
Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell for iHeart Podcast. Biheed
Fraser is our engineer and Jack Insley mixed this episode,
and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Join us on
(38:09):
Friday for the Week in tech Oz and I will
run through all those tech headlines you may have missed.
Please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech
Stuff Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
We want to hear from you.
Welcome to tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week
on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with
someone who has a front row seat to the most
fascinating things happening in and around tech today. We are
joined by Jen Statsky, one of the writers and creators
of the hit MAC series Hacks. Jen got her start
(00:33):
as a writer on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. Then
she joined the writer's room for some of TV's biggest comedies,
including Parks and Recreation, The Good Place, and the web
series turned comedy Central sitcom broad City That's the cult
favorite from Abby Jacobson an Alama Lazer. Then, back in
twenty nineteen, she and her co creators Lucianello and Paul w.
(00:53):
Downs pitched Max, the show about two comedians of very
different generations navigating a changing industry. That show is Hacks,
a runaway success since it premiered in twenty twenty one.
Season four of Hacks is out now and I had
the great pleasure of sitting down with Jen to pick
her brain about the changing entertainment industry and how things
like smartphones and chat GPT or g as I like
(01:17):
to call her, are changing the game for writers Hi, Jen,
Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hi Kara, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I mean, we're going to get into what the show
is about this season and how good it is, but
I want to talk to you more as like Jen
and your experience early on as a comedian and how
technology has played into your career as a comedian.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Broad City was a show that was started on YouTube, right, Yeah, yeah,
you were discovered as a comic for late night on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
You can't talk that much shit about.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Technology, no, no, no, I'd be pulling up the ladder
behind me if I went off on how technology is
bad and bad for creative yet.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
No.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I mean, I think my rise in television is a
very interesting like decade because my first writing job at
Latina and Jimmy Fallon came about because it was twenty
eleven and it was the time when people were writing
jokes on Twitter, and that was like a big way
that people were getting discovered. And that is actually something
(02:25):
that I loved about it. It was very much so
like the democratization of joke writing that like anybody could
write a funny joke and write a bunch of funny
jokes and then someone who worked in Hollywood and TV
could see it and be like, oh, this person might
be really good at this professionally. And yes, Brad City
was always we still call it a web series.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Yeah, it felt like web series when it was on
Comedy Central. Election. Yeah, I mean that in a very possible.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Way too. Yeah, like it it speaks to how technology
and the internet can kind of go around institutions in
a way that is helpful, like abing Alana, we're doing
upright citizens Trigade Theater in New York at the time,
which is where I met them and where Paul Lucci
and we all met. But they weren't having and they've
spoken in this they weren't having the success in the
(03:16):
system that they kind of wish they had had. They
weren't getting on a Harald team, which was like the
house team that performed every week. They weren't kind of
one of the prominent people in UCB. But they found
each other and they had this unique chemistry and they said, like,
why don't we just make something? And so that's why
they did it. They started as a web series, and
(03:37):
what's cool is even though it was a web series,
they treated it as important as if it was a
show and they believed it could be great, and that's
why they said, like, hey, we want to ask Gamy
Polar to be in this episode. And some people probably
would have been like, oh, we can't ask Gamy Polar
to be in our like little web series, you know.
And she did it, and she loved it, and she said, hey,
(03:57):
I want to produce this, and that's like what led
to it getting on television. But it started as a
web series because the traditional path wasn't necessarily working, so
they had to do it for themselves.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I mean, and you make a show that is very
much institutionally back to now. But I do feel like
there is a return to independent television making because we're
in a similar place again where like institutions are failing television.
They're not failing all television, but institutions are failing a
lot of people who want to be creators, who I
(04:31):
think deserve to be creators. And there seems to be
this return to this idea that like there shouldn't really
be such a barrier to entry for getting people to
watch things. And so now that this fifteen year span
has gone by where places like Twitter and YouTube really
were like foundational for indie comedy. Do you feel as though,
(04:52):
as someone who is still very much like involved in
indie comedy, that this might be a place again where
people can thrive.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, I mean, I hope. So. I think the thing
that's scary is there's a little bit of the pipeline
that has been disrupted. Like when I came up, the
existence of a network like Comedy Central was so important
and wonderful that they were doing original shows because it
allowed something like brad City, which started as a web series,
(05:22):
to be greenlit at a very low cost and a
very hey we're going to give these two women who
are so funny and talented but have never done anything,
We're going to give them a shot. And it was
relatively low stakes, I think, you know. And now, one
thing that I find to be scary is that for
the barrier to entry, like you're saying for television, it's
(05:45):
really high to go to one of these streamers, to
go to one of these networks and say, hey, here's
this idea, please give us the money to make it.
It feels like there is an incredible amount of pressure
on it to be successful. Like that's really hard, especially
in comedy drama is hard to it's hard to get
any show picked up, but like comedy that exists in
(06:06):
that kind of Comedy Central version of a Workaholics Abroad CEAO,
kind of like down and dirty new voices that you've
never heard before that are getting their chance at a platform.
It's now really hard I think for people on the
business side to take a risk on those people, or
at least it's harder because there's so much pressure on
(06:26):
shows to be successful right out the gate because of
this streaming model. There was a guy, an executive at
a streamer. He's no longer there. We had a lunch
and I was like, what are you guys like looking
for in comedy and he was like, honestly, hits And
I was like, sure, yeah, great, But I think he
(06:48):
was being truthful in that, like he's like, it's really hard,
I think to get places to invest into a show
if it isn't immediately drawing eyeballs because there's such pressure
to keep subscribers, and it's like, okay, get rid of it.
Do another one, you know, which is to.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Say, how the hell do you know what's going to
be a hit? I mean, I just that as a
model for how to pick up TV when you think
about Hacks, which maybe on its face a show that
is sort of invested in telling the stories of Joan
Rivers and Philis Diller and Elaine mend Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
But it was like when we pitched, it was like
two women talking. I don't know, I'm not so sure
about this.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
And yet you know it's really worked. So yeah, I mean,
I just think it's to me, it's riskier to make
your bets on just like the fact that something's gonna
be a hit, than to make your bets on something
that you like, right.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
But I think it's relevant to what you guys talk
about in the sense that I do think the influence
of tech and streaming becoming the dominant way people consume
television kind of has led us to that place, even
more so than the old model of broadcast TV or
or it's like show but people buy a cable. But
(08:02):
you know, I don't know. I think that it's relevant
because it's a result of technology coming in and disrupting
things well.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
And also, nobody who worked in television on the creator
side asked for the business to become a technology business,
which it now is. I mean, I always say that,
like Netflix is Regina George and all of the other
streamers are like Caddy Herron and Amanda Sayfreed, like in
(08:29):
the sense of there is one streamer and then there's
YouTube and there's TikTok, and in that way, it's not
the TV business anymore. It's not the movie business anymore.
It's the Netflix business. And then you have a video
platform and a social media platform that like dictate the
whole business.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Like they all, whether they needed to or not, chase
Netflix off this cliff. Netflix is the king of the castle,
and everybody else's is like trying to keep up. And
it is really interesting to be on the creative side
of it. Like running a show, you're on both the
creative and business side of it, obviously more so the creative.
(09:11):
But I see a lot of pain within the creative
community because no one asked for it to become a
tech business. It's fundamentally changed everything, and yet people still
came out and have this dream of working in a
Hollywood that doesn't really exist anymore.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
After the break. More from Jenstatski, co creator and writer
of the hit show Hacks, stay with us. I want
to go into Hacks a little bit because Hacks on
(10:00):
HBO Max, which isn't Netflix.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Which which isn't even HBO Max. I believe it's just MAXX.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Sorry, it's Max. It's Max with the black background. At
least it's Matt Black. I don't know, it's not.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
It's it's kind of like silver machine to it, Like
it does have its a Sheene, not to be confused
with Sheen, where I buy a lot of my clothes.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
So with Netflix, there seems to be no problem from
the top to the bottom to say, look, guys, people
are watching other stuff while they're watching your shows, Like,
you better start getting your act together, because people are
watching YouTube and tiktoks about your shows while they're watching
(10:42):
your shows, Like there better be an explosion in the
first minute. Somebody better be moving to Paris in the
first ten seconds of your show in order for people
to keep watching. Like, as a creator, how much are
you considering the various forms of technology that are happening
simultaneously while anybody is watching hacks?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Right, Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, the
truth is is that you're both very aware of it
and worried about it, but also trying to at least
in our experience, quiet that noise and not let it
interfere with the creative process. No one asked for Hollywood
to be changed into tech business. We are still trying
to create shows in the same way that we used to,
(11:27):
and it's a very interesting conversation. There's you know, some
reports that Netflix has asked people to write dialogue in
a way where the characters are out loud speaking I'm
going to go to the store, and you know, saying
what they're doing, so that a viewer, if they're on
their phone, can also just be hearing that and absorbing
(11:48):
it as a second screen experience. Now, I find this
topic fascinating because never in a million years has anyone
come to us spoken of that. Like the reason I
love of being at HBO, Slash Max is Casey Boys
and Sarahbbry and everybody. It still very much embodies what
I think people think about HBO and the heyday of
(12:11):
like Sopranos, where it's like very creator first. Like the
idea that they would come to us and talk to
us about a second screen experience just I can't imagine it.
And as far as other streamers, I have read the
articles and I have heard anecdotal stories about it, but
I've yet to hear any like direct like, yes, this
happened to me. They said, please write dialogue in this way.
(12:33):
So I'm very curious if it's truly like a directive
or is it merely bad dialogue that slips through the
cracks and then people are retrofitting like, oh, this must
be what's happening because sometimes that, you know. So I
write by a dialogue all the time, and then as
I rewrite, I'm like, oh, no, how about do it
(12:55):
how a human speaks? St like, So it's possible because
I and they would never, of course cop to it
if a streamer was telling people to do that. I
did anecdotally hear this, and this is true because it
came from someone who said it happened to them. That
there was a process of they were making a show
(13:16):
and they were reviewing the pilot. They were doing notes
for the pilot, and the streamer said, Hey, in this
dinner scene, could someone order ice cream? And like they
were like, you're they're already a dinner, Like, they're at
the table, there's food. Could just they could there be
ice cream or someone order ice cream or there be
I screaming, screaming The person was like why, and they
(13:36):
were like, from our research, if there's a dessert in
the first ten minutes, people tend to keep watching. And
so for me, yeah, I love dessert.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
I wish there was a cake in the beginning of
The Sopranos. I would have actually the wire, maybe I
would have finished.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
The Yeah, in adolescence, he should be in the holding
room eating a sheet cake. But that is a story
that I did hear that I know to be which
is crazy and hacks very much. So we have an
episode this season that delves into this very problem. Is
that as Hollywood becomes more of a technology based industry,
(14:12):
we will get this tremendous amount of data about how
people consume TV and what they respond to. And it's
really tricky because if you're running Netflix, if you're running Amazon,
if you're running one of these streamers, it is your
job to just keep people on your platform and people
watching and people subscribing. So, from the purely business side
(14:35):
of it, if you know that ice cream keeps people watching,
don't you have some responsibility to your shareholders to be like,
let's get some more ice cream in there.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Well, and that looking at the not even the viewer,
but looking at the product as data as like a
data set I think is really interesting, and that is
something when Broad City was on YouTube, viewers mattered. I
think viewership always mattered on YouTube of like how many
views does this have? But this idea that like each
(15:07):
little point of connection that a viewer has to a
product that is coming out of this technology company is
now of such importance, where like I just don't think
there was like this sense of datatization of both content
and viewership up until I don't know, ten years ago.
And that's I don't know. I'm not saying anything new
in that regard, but I do think I have some
(15:30):
empathy for people who work for a technology company versus
people who work for a studio. You know, You're right,
It's like there was always and I used to think
about this all the time, Like I did punch Up
on a friend's studio movie, and so I was like
working on this like kind of big budget comedy, and
I remember being at some of the test screenings, like
studios have always done test screenings and had responses, and
(15:52):
even that I remember being like.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
I don't know, like how much of this is good
or not? To go in and find a bunch of
people in a mall in Las Vegas, ask them to
come see this movie and really change the movie based
on their responses. So there's always been a level of
gathering data and retrofitting the product to it, which is
(16:15):
the very difficulty of making movies and TV being both
art and commerce. But it's like it's gone so much
further with technology, Like you're saying, like it's like on
steroids now, because it's every single inflection point, it's, oh,
this is when they turn it off, this is when
they stop watching, this is what they rewatch over and over,
(16:35):
and so there's just all this data that is useful
to these companies, of course, and it's not so insiduous
that they're coming to us and saying like, hey, this
is how we want you to make this show. But
it's not hard to imagine a world.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Where it is I watch this season of Hacks, which
I think is really great. I'm not going to endorse it.
I was not paid to endorse it. I just want
to say that I.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Know, well, will you if I pay you, will you
endorse it?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Well, I'll endorse it right here. And there's absolutely no
bitcoin exchange. There's a terriff on the endorsement. Actually, but
the season does deal with this idea of art and commerce.
In fact, there's a line I think that is said
by Helen Hunt that's like, what is your carpool karaoke?
So from your point of view as a show, and
(17:23):
her like, what is this season about? And how does
a question like that fit into what the season is about?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
The best way I can describe it is season three,
we were focusing on Deborah going after her dream job
with underline under dream, and this season you get your
dream job and the word underlined his job. And that's like,
how it feels to me is that now it is
the rubber meets the road of what does it mean
(17:51):
to get your dream? And what does it mean when
your dream is a dream of an industry of the
past and now it is your dream in twenty twenty
five when as everything we're saying, technology and the way
the world has gone and capitalism has fundamentally altered that industry.
(18:11):
And to your question before yes and the second episode
Helen Hunt says to them, what's your carpool karaoke? You
need to expand the brand equity of Late Night, And
for us that was really speaking to this tremendous pressure
put on TV and movies and late night included now
(18:32):
to exist beyond just the product itself. Like there, it
feels like there is such pressure on these companies to
be valued as a tech company and maximize growth for
in profit for their shareholders that you can feel that
downlad pressure that again, it's not just enough to be
(18:55):
a good TV show. You do need to be a hit,
Like what are you what value are you bringing to
this technology platform?
Speaker 1 (19:02):
You guys cast people who've I've found on TikTok, Right, So,
like I know about Robbie because I know so Robbie
Hoffman has a I'm not gonna give it away, but
like has a great role on this season. Jake Shane
great role on this season. These are two people who
I know from the Internet, which I think is really
interesting when we talk about like the positive effects of
the Internet on comedy. Yes, you also have this amazing
(19:25):
storyline where TikTok plays in in a very pivotal way
and I'm wondering, like, is being online a big part
of being in the writer's room. And then secondly, if
you can talk a little bit about the way in
which technology plays into Late Night and that storyline, it
is something that inevitably has to be considered as an
(19:48):
online medium, even though it exists on terrestrial television.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, totally. I mean, I think what you're hitting on
is exactly right, which is that we also want to
be conscious of the fact that we do consume the Internet,
and we do love the Internet, and there are good
things about it. And like you know, Meg Stalter who
plays Killa, we found her on Instagram, and like you said,
(20:13):
Jake Shane, Robbie Hoffman, all these people came to us
through that. And so again in my experience in comedy,
I have discovered some people that make me how laughing
more than anyone. You know. Chris Fleming is a comedian
who's special I produced a couple of years ago and
who I still work with, and I know of him
(20:34):
because I saw his stand up on the Internet and
I was like, this person is unbelievably funny to me.
And so it wouldn't be fair of us to just
make a season that's going like did the Internet ruin everything?
You know? Like that's that would be a very Pollyanna
take that isn't true. And so I think we also
this season are exploring, like are very at least for myself,
(20:56):
like my own conflicted feelings about it, because I get
a lot from the Internet. I discover new talent and voices,
and that's incredibly helpful, and yet the economy of attention
like it it pulls my attention in such a fierce,
troublesome way that is like scary to me.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Well, and it also feels like television isn't the gold
standard anymore, Like the gold standard is virality, which you know,
which is part of my next question. You know, you
have people like Evan ross Katz who the minute of
show airs, there's like the memification of whatever the best
lines on those shows were. And I wonder, because I
(21:37):
have you here, like, honestly, to what extent.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Do you write to the.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Clickability?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
It's not possible. It must write what you mean, right
what Evan memes. It's really like it's crazy making you
think about it too much. You like really have to
try to tune it out and not think that way.
I also feel like one thing that the Internet is
(22:09):
really good about is authenticity and sniffing out things that
are inauthentic. And so I think if you right to
the meme, so to speak, or we were trying to
make something go viral. I think that you would smell
that and people would feel that, and then it doesn't
take off like That's that's one thing about the Internet
(22:33):
that I do really appreciate and love, Like there's an
unpredictability to it. Things take off and catch fire and
like hit some kind of like center of someone's brain
and you just don't know why, and you can't really
reverse engineer it.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
It does kind of make you still believe that people
don't know what they want. And those are people who
are on the internet.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
You could look at so many quote unquote hits of
the last few years, even like the Bear, And I
think that's the danger in having all this data and technology,
because the tech industry can be so specific and data
driven and go like, well, this is the exact point
at which someone turns this off, So that must mean
(23:16):
it's not good if this person you know, you don't know.
That's the thing that's really lovely about creating things is
you have to just trust the person creating it in
their brain and their heart. And and I think that
as we delve more into this tech world, it becomes
in danger of people thinking they can know better that
we can, like because tech does know better in a way.
(23:39):
We're all like, you know, little like lab rats, and
they know that when I see the like red dot
on my screen, I'm gonna click it because like it
activates my dopamine or whatever, and so that's really scary.
But like there's a creative aspect of an unknowability that
is really important.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
This might be a huge leap, but like, in a way,
technology is a bit like humor to say, like the
very humorous person says I know better, right, Like Freud
says that, like humor is the triumph of the ego, right,
like it will protect me from the pain of my life,
right right, And then and then love says, no, you
(24:20):
can't use humor for everything, Like the triumph of your
life is actually like your humanity. And like I do
think that HACKS really is about the way in which
humor is a triumph, but it's also about how humor
can't do everything.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yes, yes, totally well. And I think what you're pointing
out is exactly right, that there's something in humor and
I've certainly used it in my life to protect myself
from feeling things at times like humor puts you sometimes
at a distance because you're observing, you're not experiencing the thing.
(24:56):
And I think what you're pointing out is that it
is this, it's this desire for control and hacks. You're
exactly right. It is both about how comedy is so
important and can save us, and yet you also need
to feel the feelings and give into the unpredictability of
life because otherwise you're just trying to protect yourself. You're
(25:16):
ultimately trying to protect yourself from dying, which you can't.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah. I just I think that there's like there's hubris
on both sides. There's hubris on the sides of technology
companies who believe that they can outsmart and predict what
people want. And there's also hubris on the side of
the creative who like believes that their own creativity can
kind of trump all.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah, And we really tried to express through the Hell
and Hunk character this season, like we felt it would
be pat and not truthful if it was just like
the brave creatives against the capitalist monster executives. It's like
that's not interesting because that's not truthful either. Like, there
are great people on both sides of this trying to
(26:02):
navigate this intersection, and you're exactly right. It's like the
fact of the matter is, I can't tell you that
I don't like going on TikTok and watching people dance.
I do like there's something just visceral and human. I
don't know what it is, but like there's a reason
people love it. It taps into something.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
After the break. Why Hacks writer and co creator Jen
Statsky is concerned about the effects of AGI on her
industry Stay with us. Paul Schrader is a guy who
(26:55):
said that chat GPT is something that could help ID eight.
I'm sure you were sort of following the ways in
which the strike addressed, you know, algorithmically driven creativity or
as we say, generative AI would affect the creativity of
(27:15):
the business. So my question is twofold, which is one like,
how did the WGA address this during and after the strikes?
And two can AI be funny?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
My take on AI is really that quote that's like
I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so
that I can do art and writing, not for AI
to do my art and writing so that I can
do my laundry and dishes. I don't want AI to
come into the realm of creation, and it will inevitably
(27:54):
and it already has, so it doesn't matter what I want,
it's going to happen. But just speaking as a creative
person who has done this for I guess like fifteen
years now, I never loan for a machine to give
me any I do laan for a machine to give
an answer. In the worst parts of writing, you're like, God,
someone just tell me the answer. But it would to
(28:17):
me really make the process feel hollow. And the show
Hacks is very much so about the joy of creating
with someone else, and that process in many ways is
the reward, not the end result or the acclaim or
the rewards. And so if you take the joy out
(28:40):
of that process and the humanity out of the very
process of creating the thing, I just worry that it
feels very hollow.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
So you are not tempted by G, as I like
to call her.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I am really not tempted by G in a way
that I will be the old man like screaming, get
off my lawn, like you know, the industry will pass
me by, and I'll be like Jen, you gotta use G,
you gotta gen you got Jen, you haven't worked in
fifteen years. You gotta use G. I just I don't know.
(29:15):
I mean, like, what is Paul Shrew What is his
example of how it could be useful? How can an idea?
Speaker 1 (29:21):
I think it's idea generation, Like, oh, you know Hannah
and deb are in Vegas. What is something that they
would do in Vegas that could be really fun? So
in this way, I don't want to be again like
Pollyanna a butt and be like no, I would never
be cause like in some ways it's like, okay.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
When we write that. There's an episode this season where
Deborneva go back to my face.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I call her hand. I'm sorry, Deborneva, Hannah's Hannah and
I'll tell you what.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
You know who does that all the time? Is Gene Smart?
In scene she'll be like Hannah, and I'm like, there
is an argument to be made, you know. When we
wrote that episode, of course we're googling, like Las Vegas
things to do. It's not like I don't use the
Internet in my writing. So I guess one might say,
how different is it? Then it's just.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Google lowercase G.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I use lower CASEG, not the big G. Yeah, but
one could argue like, well, what's the difference about using
the big G. You're already like using the internet to
provide you with answers about that. What is the difference?
I just it's to me, it's such a slippery slope,
and I think I get really scared because I don't
(30:34):
think humans will put on the guardrails to not let
it get out of control.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
So conversely, there's the issue of training algorithms on pre
existing scripts. Yeah, and training algorithms on now subtitles, right,
so they can actually collect subtitles from shows and movies
and use those subtitles to train algorithms that then will
(31:02):
do what I guess, build better models. I would imagine
it's sort of boring for me to even ask your
opinion on that. I just wonder as a member of
the WGA, as far as moving forward post strike is concerned, like,
can you talk a little bit about what's been going
on and the conversations that have been had.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think the language that we were
advocating for was that like a script. This is funny,
It's like a basically like a script needed to be
written by a human being. That was like the language
being put in the contract.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Those are your guardrails.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Those are the guardrails. Yeah, and I actually am a
Writer's Guild caption and well there and here's here's the
problem here. I missed the meeting last night, so can
you imagine how much delicious hot off the press information
for you? But I'm a delinquent union rep. But it's
(32:00):
it seems crazy to me that companies would be able
to take this tremendous amount of material owned by the studios,
owned by the networks and just use it for their
own profit. And there has to be some I don't
know why. I have no idea. I think what's really
scary is I have no idea where the studios and
the networks and companies are at with it in terms
(32:22):
of it seems like the type of thing that they
would so viciously go after of like you're using our
copywritten material. But I also think they probably see the
writing on the wall that they're all going to have
to get into the AI space themselves. So I have
no idea, to be honest, like what the higher level
(32:43):
conversations are. But as a creative, it seems insane to
me that you can't just take a show and throw
it up on your YouTube channel, like they go after
that so viciously to take down copyright materials. So to me,
this feeling is very similar, and I think there is
(33:03):
like you know, I believe Shonda Rhimes and some other
people there's like correct me on that if I'm wrong,
But I believe some artists are coming together to like
pursue legal action about it.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
They are.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
And so to your point about like creativity and the
purpose of creating art, especially TV being the collaboration not
actually the product, I think that's where something like chat
GPT gets you in a little bit of trouble, even
if you're someone who's like a solo screenwriter, that there
(33:36):
has to be at a certain point a level of
you know, sort of interaction and toiling. What I think
is problematic about the intersection between artificial intelligence and creativity
is that it becomes a little frictionless, and that is
where things start getting boring.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yes, it's a good it's a very good point. And
if someone was asking this, they were talking to me
about like season four of US show, it's really easy
for a show to get like complacent and not grow
or not or just feel stagnant. And one thing I
said was that I think that it's something we really
have to our advantages, that there are three creators and
(34:18):
we are constantly checking each other and being like have
we done that before? Is that? Could that be better?
Like there is we are in a constant dialogue about it,
and there is toiling there, and there is friction there,
and it makes it better. And exactly to your point,
it will be frictionless if you just go to the
TG and say what should Deborahn have a fight about
(34:40):
this episode and it gives you the answer and you
go okay.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Like that.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
That's that is exactly. It's like sad because so much
of this is like if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Like there is an element of that to storytelling and
Hollywood that I feel we're in an era of like
we fix something that wasn't really broken.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
You know what it is? It's that in a technological age,
optimization is the point, yes, And if optimization is the point,
then everything is pushed into the tent of optimization.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
That's exactly it. Technology tells us we must optimize our
life in every single way, and you just can't optimize creativity.
You can't go what is the most efficient, easiest, best
way to make art. You just can't like that. It's
it's contrary to the point of it. And so I
think that's exactly the thing that worries me is that
(35:40):
if we go, if we follow this to the logical extension,
does everything go to the point of optimization? Does every
show get put through this filter of but what will
get the most eyeballs on? What will get the most subscribers?
Because we are trying to optimize profit for the company,
you know, like who is stopping that?
Speaker 1 (35:58):
I think we all are stopping it. I think humor
sort of acts as this way to say, look, this
can't affect me that much. And I think why humor
has such a lasting influence on society and culture is that,
like we get to make jokes about optimization. That is
where humor plays in, and that's where you get to
tell people, guys, this is weird. Like I don't need
(36:19):
to optimize my steps. I don't need to optimize my sleep.
People have been been done sleeping, you know, like we figured.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Out sleeping for the most We're like we're good on
sleeping totally. Yes, Yeah, that's it. That is a that
is a optimistic way to look at it that humor. Yes,
it detaches you a bit, but in the detachment you
can point out the absurdity of it in a way
that perhaps makes people think differently about it and maybe
behave differently.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And I think that's where Ava ultimately gets to play
as a character on Hacks, where it's like, this is
someone who is deeply feeling but also is like deeply
disturbed by the way things are, where Deborah is more like,
this is reality and I still love being funny, you know. Yeah, yes,
(37:14):
And that's where I think they really but reads.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
That's where they but but that's where they also make
each other better, because it's a Ava sees things in
this way and is disturbed by it and says like, well,
what if it could be better? And Deborah says, but yes,
but we still have to do the work. So let's
figure out a way to do the work.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Jen, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Oh my gosh, thank you. It's such so lovely to
talk to you.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
That's it for this week for tech stuff. I'm caar Price.
This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Adriana Tapia.
It was executive produced by me Oswa Washian and Kate
Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell for iHeart Podcast. Biheed
Fraser is our engineer and Jack Insley mixed this episode,
and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Join us on
(38:09):
Friday for the Week in tech Oz and I will
run through all those tech headlines you may have missed.
Please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech
Stuff Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
We want to hear from you.
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