American Fiction Ronald Young, Jr.

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdel Cast. The questions asked if movies have
women and them are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zeph and Beast
start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, Jamie, Hey, Caitlyn. I was thinking that we should
change the name of the podcast to to what fuck?

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Wait, that's so pertinent, that's.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
So the fucktal Cast, the FU Cast.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
I mean, I think there's certain episodes that have sort
of devolved into the cast over the years.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
True, why not just commit anyway? That was the brilliant
idea I had for the intro of this episode. Welcome
to the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Or sorry, welcome to fuck Welcome to the fuctal Cast.
I yeah, I was gonna do a play on the
ending of the movie and keep making us to retake
it over and over and over and then how as, oh, sure, sure,
this is why we should we should we should really
circle up with uh with our intros. Look, this is

(01:09):
the fuck Deal Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Name is Caitlin Deronte. This is our show where we
examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel
Test as a jumping off point and Jamie, what's that well.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
The Bechdel Test is a media metric created by friend
of the show Alison Bechtel. It was originally appeared as
a joke in her comic collection dis to Watch Out
For as a commentary on how there were never romantic
relationships between women in movies, but has since been adapted
to a more mainstream metric. There's many versions of this test.

(01:45):
The one we use requires that there are two characters
of a marginalized gender with names who speak to each
other about something other than a man for a meaningful
exchange of dialogue and spoiler alert that doesn't happened many
times in this movie, but there's one exchange in particular
that I find very delightful.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
I think I know one. You're talking.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, there's a great Bechtel test pass in the movie
we are covering today, which is twenty twenty three's American Fiction.
I feel like, I don't know. Over the years, I
think that like, we don't cover a ton of recent
movies anymore. But once we get over like the two
year past the two year mark, it's time, it's fair game.
And so here We are directed by core Jefferson in

(02:32):
twenty twenty three, adapted from the novel Erasure by Percival Everett.
And we have a wonderful returning guest to talk about
it with us.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
We certainly do. He's an audio producer, host of the
podcasts Wait for It and Leaving the Theater, and you
remember him from our episode on Hitch. It's Ronald Young Junior.
Welcome back.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Hello, Hello, I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to
be here for this one. I am going to roast
white folks a lot over the course of the amount
of time.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
I hope everyone is ready for that.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Feeling great, feeling great. And I also love when we
have a guest come back for the second time with
like an extremely different movie, like.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
This is not a romantic comedy.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
This is not a romantic comedy. And there's not a
single moment of Kevin James. There's not a single hitch
in American fiction.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
No, we're so thrilled to have you back.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Glad to be here. I was excited. I had such
a good time in our first conversation. Is one of
those things where when it was over, I was like, hey,
I'll talk about anything y'all want to talk about one.
I love talking about movies, and I love the way
that y'all talk about movies. So I'm glad that you
I'm glad that you you let me back in here.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
And I hope there's a third time. Depending on how
this time goes.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
We could find a weird third one.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Let's schedule it right now. Yeah, done?

Speaker 4 (03:56):
All right, we're gonna do Tonny Tarco see the.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Actually we haven't done Donnie Darko. I feel like it
would have happened by now, but I've always wanted to
do like a Patreon theme of like Harvey and Donnie
Darko back to back, just imaginary ragers or something interesting.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
I was like, wait, what's Harvey again?

Speaker 1 (04:18):
I don't know why. I saw it a lot when
I was a kid. Anyways, anyways, Yes, we're here to
talk about American fiction. Ronald. What is your history with
this movie?

Speaker 3 (04:28):
I saw it when it came out. I was unfamiliar
with Core Jefferson's work. This was my window into it.
Huge fan of Jeffrey Wright. So I saw the preview,
and the premise of the preview is what got me
into the movie theater seat and sitting down and watching it,
I realized it's so much more than the premise. And
watching it the second time to get ready for this episode,

(04:51):
I realized that there's when I realized that the premise
is kind of not the whole purpose of the film.
It made me lean in for the part to the
movie that I really really enjoy which is more of
the commentary about being a black creative by a black creative,
which I just I enjoyed. I'm so ready to talk
about it.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
Mmm, hell yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
Uh, I guess similar for a recent movie. I saw it.
I saw it, and I really enjoyed it when it
came out. Yeah. I also, this was like my introduction
to I think I think I've read Cord because Court
Jefferson like started as a journalist and then worked in
TV and then worked and then became a director, and
I like from I think I've read him on like,

(05:36):
oh he was on Gker one point out bekay, I'm
looking at his Wikipedia page, So I think I read
him in college. He has a kind of incredible TV resume.
He wrote on Season of Succession, The Good Place, Station
eleven Watchman, So I had experienced his work without realizing
it was his work, and then saw this, and then
this movie also got me into personal Everett as a writer.

(06:02):
So I went and read this book, Erasure, and a
couple of his other books he wrote James last year,
and I also randomly read one of his books from
two thousand and nine. I am not Sydney Poitier, and
he's just like an amazing writer. And this is a
very fascinating adaptation of a book that I think Eraser

(06:26):
like it would be a really difficult book to like
straight ahead adapt and I think Coort Jefferson did a
really awesome job of sort of like honing in, especially
on more of like the family stuff that sort of
populates this story. Anyways, excited to talk about it, Yeah, Caitlin,
what's your history with American fiction?

Speaker 2 (06:45):
I also saw it when it came out. It was
one of my favorite movies of that year. It was
the movie that I was hoping would win Best Picture
that year because it was nominated. Did not win Best Picture,
but I think it won for a Best Adapted Screenplay.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
I remember did Yeah, and he gave an incredible speech.
Incredible speech.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
It's about financing films, which I thought was fantastic.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, oh right, yes.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
And also this is how I learned that Cord Jefferson
is hot, so hot.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yes, people are talking about this by people.

Speaker 4 (07:20):
Do you bekately talk.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
It's come up. It's come up. And that's kind of
the most important takeaway from the film, that Cord Jefferson
is hot.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
I think it is important that hot people are winning Oscars.
I meane actors obviously, but like hot writers.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, it's important. Let writers be hot. I've been seeing
it for years. Yeah, but they won't let us.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
That's why we look like this.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
I actually have to dial down my hotness in order
to actually try to become a successful writer.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
Seriously. To be seriously, you have to look like a shit.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
Yeah when I can.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
That's why I tell myself on bad days, I'm like,
people are gonna really respect.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
You today, exactly.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
You will. You will not distract. No.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
But in all seriousness, I love this movie. I thought
it was so funny and I cannot wait to talk
about it. It's such a rich text. And I guess
let's take a quick break and then we'll come back
for the recap.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, and we're back.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
Okay, here's the recap. We meet Selonious Ellison, who goes
by Monk in reference to Thelonious Monk played by Jeffrey Wright.
He's a literature professor who is suspended for it seems
like several incidents and mostly calling out white students for

(09:01):
their white fragility. Seems to be the case. He's also
a published author and has written several novels.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Which I think, I don't know if this is like
from the book or not, but whenever you catch one
of his fake book titles, like his fake pretentious book titles,
they're really great. I think the one you see the
most is the has Conundrum, and you're like, the hell
is that? And it's like huge, awesome.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
I was going to say, I wanted to note that
the suspension at the college. What I wanted to point
out was how frustrating that scene was for me to watch.
But then on top of that, it was presented in
a way that felt real world frustrating, which is how
I know it was well done, because I said, that
is exactly how that conversation would go and has gone

(09:49):
in a lot of ways. But it made sense that
this would be the man that is who does not
believe in race step much but is also writing very
pretentious tomes called the Wouldn't You Say?

Speaker 1 (09:59):
The Husk Connu the conundrum here, just like it looks
like it's seven hundred pages and you're like, yeah, he's
kind of awesome, but he's also well, we know this guy. Yeah,
that scene was That scene was great, especially like how
it is very clear that one of the other writers
in the room is extremely jealous of him. And yeah,

(10:22):
that the airport swipe, You're like, oh, it's just so good.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
That's the I think that's the same actor who's in
He's in like the elevator scene in Speed Whoa, And
he's the one who like keeps pushing pull button. I
think he might also be in Oh God, it's like,
you know, it sounds like, you know, he's in a
lot of things. I think he's also been in a

(10:48):
few like David Lynch movies. Anyway, a quick appearance by him.
So anyway, Monk, he's a published author. He has also
written a recent novel that he's having a hard time selling.
His agent, Arthur played by John Ortiz, tells him that
publishers are looking for books by black authors that are

(11:11):
about very stereotypical black American experience is like tragedy, porn
kind of stuff, and they find that Monk's writing is
too smart, sophisticated, academic, that kind of stuff. Monk then
goes to Boston for a book.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
This is a great New England piece of cinema. Underrated.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
The dunkin Donuts representation. You see it almost right away.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
It's my first note as like authenticity, authenticity, and you
know that coffee is rash, it's so bad, but he
needs it.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
He needs it well because the book I didn't I
have not read the book that this is adapted from,
but I read the Wikipedia Scholarly Journal. It's synopsis in DC.

Speaker 4 (12:01):
Yeah, oh that would have been interesting.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that, I guess. I don't know
why it was changed. Yeah, because Cord Jefferson is from Tucson,
which does come up with like via the Sterlingah. I
don't know why they chose Boston. I forgot that was that.
My other connection to this movie is the some of
the scenes were shot in the like two tons over

(12:24):
from my mom, and so her and all her friends
were doing slow drives to see if they could catch
a look at Jeffrey Wright. They're all wordy for Jeffrey Wright.
They were not successful.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Damn, I'm so sorry to hear that. So Monk goes
to Boston for this book festival to be on a
panel with other authors. Also at this festival is Centaura
Golden played by Ray, who has written a book called
Weese Lives in the Ghetto that seems to be about

(13:01):
the stereotypical black characters that these publishers want. Monk goes
to an event where she reads a passage from her
book and he is rolling his eyes. Monk then visits
his family, who lives in the Boston area. We meet
his sister, Lisa, played by Tracy Ellis Ross.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
My favorite character, and one of the only things I
don't like about this movie is how quickly and mellow
dramatically she exits the movie. I'm just like, she's such
a good character, and I feel like even if she
had to die to advance the protagonist narrative. I didn't

(13:42):
like the piano music heart attack. I was like, come on,
you got Tracy Ellis Ross, don't do this to her.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
I will also say I think that I had the
same issue because she brought for me. I love Tracy
Ellis Ross. I've loved her since girlfriends. But what bothers
me is that she sews up here and she brings
so much to the film, and I'm settling in ready
for a whole.

Speaker 4 (14:05):
Performance from her.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
And the only thing that I felt okay about is
that when she dies is the handoff from her to
Sterling K Brown in terms of the relationship between Cliff
and Monk was done so well on the beach, in
that scene with them cussing out their neighbor Philip, it

(14:29):
was done. That's the only part that might that makes
it okay that she's gone was watching them team up
to be like.

Speaker 4 (14:35):
You, Philip, get out of here. We hate you.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
And I'm like, oh, okay, so these are real brothers.
They like really they really understand each other. But that
was the only thing I agree with you.

Speaker 4 (14:43):
I hated that she was gone from the movie.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Well talk, I guess that was like a not a
huge change from the book, but the change that was
made was kind of interesting. I don't know, it's so
I love adaptation talk.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
We'll get to it.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
But yeah, I was like, she she's so compelling and
she's so clearly embodied like an eldest daughter. Yes, And
then in that same scene where you're like, whoa, this
is so cool, and then she dies right and she
drops dad right in front of you, and you're like,
this is a nasty piece of work. Yes, I mean
there's there's many women. There's many like well written women

(15:17):
in this story. That's not even the issue. I just
she was immediately my favorite character. And then in the
same scene she dies, Oh.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
My God, like her Roe versus Wade joke and the
fact that she wrote her own eulogy, yes, at her
funeral and it's about how she wanted to fuck Iatris
Elba and Russell Krau like.

Speaker 4 (15:38):
So funny thrusts.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Elba such a funny character.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
It was like, come on, couldn't she have lived like
twenty more minutes? Come on? Always Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Anyway, we meet Lisa. She's a doctor who has recently
gotten divorced. We meet monks mother, Agnes played by Leslie
is it you Gams Oogams. She seems like she might
be showing signs of dementia. We also meet their housekeeper,

(16:12):
Lorraine played by Mara Lucretia Taylor. Monk and Lisa we
get a better sense of their relationship. They talk about
various family dynamics some past family drama, including how their
father was very closed off, and will learn that Monk

(16:33):
tends to sort of follow in those footsteps. They also
try to figure out what to do about their mother's health.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
That's another thing I really appreciate about this movie is
how like, without bonking you over the head with it,
it feels like a really well written example of how
like every kid has a different set of parents, and
like all of the sibling alliances and I don't know,
like whatever, like everyone recognizes their version of that, but
how both of his siblings are like rolling their eyes

(17:02):
or like, oh you thought our dad was faithful?

Speaker 2 (17:06):
What the hell are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Oh, it's probably because he was your face, like you
were his favorite. Yeah, I just yeah, I was like, oh,
oh I feel seen and I don't like it.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
There was a line that he said too, he said
enemy see everything and friends only see what they want
or something along those lines. That's Uh says to Monk
at that point, and I thought it was.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
Very very well.

Speaker 3 (17:30):
There's several good lines in here, and I'll highlight them
as we get through them, but this was starting there.
I'm just like, man, you are some bars in here.
Mister Jefferson.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Sterling K. Brown is so good in this movie. I
forget if he was nominated for Supporting Actor, but if
he wasn't, he should have been.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
He's so good in this I don't think he was.
I don't know, though I know he's great in it.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
Oh he was nominated, Yes.

Speaker 4 (17:52):
Sterling K. Brown was nominated for an Academy Award. He
did not win.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
Well, I don't like that.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
So they're talking about what to do about their mother's health.
They think maybe they should hire a nurse, but that
would be expensive. They would have to sell their beach house.
And then Lisa suddenly suffers a heart attack and dies.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Can I say how she dies in the book because
it does feel I think it does, because this is
one of the plot points in the movie that feels
so jarring, and even people who love this movie are like,
why did that happen? In the book, she works at
a women's clinic, which I forget if she works at
a more general hospital.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
In the movie.

Speaker 4 (18:35):
It's a clinic.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, it's like a family planning clinic.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
So in the book, which is published in two thousand
and one, she is killed when an anti abortion person
comes in with a gun and she's shot at work,
so it is like an equally sudden death, but it
is a more shocking like she's murdered. It's not a
freak like, oh my gosh, I had a heart because

(19:01):
I'm stressed. Question mark, which is like, I don't know.
I'm excited to talk about adaptation because I think it
just works. I don't know, because I understand that that
would like really kind of bring this movie to a
grinding halt very very early on, because her death is
sudden no matter what. So that is that is like
a pretty big change, even though it doesn't really affect

(19:22):
the later events of the movie, it's a pretty big change.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
I think hearing that definitely would have put more emphasis
on her death in a way that was not necessary
for the movie to move forward. But I would also
argue that I don't think. I think, except for the
ways in which that she was holding the family together
and the way that the family then splits apart with
her death is probably the most important part about it.

(19:48):
So you had to remove that, like a pin from
the wheel, if you will, in order for things to
kind of go in the direction that they're going. But
if it would have been like a more dramatic because
if you think about it, even the way that she died,
like when we watch her feet on the gurney and
he's looking through the hospital window, is already traumatic enough.
I don't know what it would have been like if
it had been more like grizzly and political in that way.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Well, I wonder, and this is pure speculation from my part,
but I wonder if coord Jefferson just didn't want to
show violence against a black woman on screen.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
Also that yeah, right in the very early parts of
the movie.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, hm, because, as various characters comment on throughout the movie,
like these heavily stereotyped portrayals of black characters in movies
and books experiencing pain and suffering and violence and being
shot by the police and things like that. So and
even though that does happen at the end of the movie,

(20:47):
it's Monk's imagination of what's happening, So it's not real.
So you don't actually see real violence against black people
on screen. So that's my guess as to why Cord
Jefferson made that change. But I don't know.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yeah, I wasn't able to find comments on like specific
changes made, but I just thought it was interesting because
it's like, I don't know, personal ever writes like really
intensely political book or like in this case, wrote a
very intensely political book. And I also like, I don't know,
it's I would be so interested to hear like Coreg
Jefferson's thoughts on like, well, you know, is that a

(21:22):
studio note? Is that his choice? Like I just wonder
what the process is when you're adapting a novel to
the screen of like, well, if you want X amount
of budget, we need you to change this, this and this,
which is right? You know happens? I don't know, so
hard to say, but ri ip, Lisa, you were the
best character. I think that. Yes.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
So the family holds a small funeral for her, which
is on the beach near the family beach house. So
we're kind of like going back and forth between this
beach house among's mother's house. Also, I think he goes
back to la sometimes I track of like where people
were in space and time. But anyway, there's a funeral,

(22:05):
and this is when we meet Monk and Lisa's brother,
Cliff played by Sterling K. Brown. He and Monk have
mostly lost touch, but they start to reconnect. Throughout the movie,
Cliff is also recently divorced from his wife and he
has come out as gay. Then Monk meets a neighbor woman, Coraline,

(22:28):
played by Erica Alexander.

Speaker 4 (22:30):
Of Living Single.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
So yeah, I just want to point out that we
have three very prominent black sitco or black led i'd
say female led shows in here. We have is Array
of Insecure, we have Tracy Alis Ross of Girlfriends, and
we have Erica Alexander of Living Single. Oh my god,
we could have gotten them in one scene.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Do you not understand that's a holy trinity situation.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, Flying Colors, it would have passed the Bechdel test
if they could have just had a conversation about it,
literally anything else and it would.

Speaker 1 (23:02):
Have just been such a dull. Yeah, the women are
pretty a cordoned off from from each other sequence to
sequin and you know, we could talk about that, but
uh but I didn't. Yeah, I didn't even make that connection.
But there is like a sitcom holy trinity situation going
on here.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, because you have Living Single that was first, it
predated friends. Then you have Girlfriends that comes later, which
is referenced Insecure, that would come even later, I was
in hog Heaven, Like, how did you get all of
them in one movie?

Speaker 4 (23:36):
This is amazing.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Next time, let's get him in a scene.

Speaker 4 (23:40):
Yeah, let's get him together.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Come on, seriously, Okay, So we meet coreline. She and
Monk start chatting. She invites him inside for some wine,
and then a little bit later she asks Monk out
on a date. Then Monk takes his mother to a
doctor appointment. She is diagnosed with Alzheimer's, which means that

(24:05):
she will likely need round the clock care. And with
Lisa's passing and Cliff being broke from his divorce, it's
sort of up to Monk to kind of bear this
financial burden. But he also doesn't really have the money
for that. So he decides to sit down and start

(24:26):
writing a book called My Pathology under the pseudonym stag
r Lee. And it is the very stereotypical narrative about
black people that these publishers are like gobbling up. So
you know, there's deadbeat Dad's guns crack. And as he

(24:49):
writes this book, two characters come to life. One of
them is played by Keith David, And there's this really
fun scene where like Monk is kind of talking to
them of like negotiating some of the dialogue that they
would say in some of the descriptions. It's very very funny.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
And in the in the in Erasure, like he writes
the whole book like my Pathology just appears in the
middle of Erasure, and it is like, well, really really
really intense. And I think, like, and this isn't a
criticism of the movie, because it's like you, how would
you do that? And also would you really want to?

(25:27):
I think that he like adapts it really really well.
But the like amount of horrific stuff that happens in
the book within a book that is then responded to
really positively by like the white literary crowd, is like,
it is pretty horrific.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
There are so I don't want to get too far
ahead of the recap, but I just want to point
out that right after the scene where he is talking
to his characters from the book, he is sitting on
the bed playing on his phone, and it's just before
he talks to his agent, but he's sitting on there
playing on his phone and a TV shows it says
black Stories Month, and it then shows a preview of

(26:04):
the stories that month, and these were actual movies, and
they showed scenes from Boys in the Hood, Twelve Years
of Slave, k New Jack City, and Precious, and I wrote, Yikes,
seeing all of them as clips together is actually kind
of wild because they picked them in a certain way
that shows like, you know, the brother getting shot in
Boys in the Hood, Precious running with her baby, twelve

(26:27):
years of Slave running from the slave masters, all of
that together and it's like Black Stories Month, which is
just such a good little punctuation on what the story
that Coor Jefferson is telling here. It was just like
just a little bit of an easter egg. I really enjoyed.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what the senior talking about.
And the one clip that I recognized the most was
from Precious, Yeah, because I was like, wait, is that
from Precious, which is the movie that I kept thinking
of over and over again when characters would reference black
tragedy porn movies. Yes, and like white audience's response to

(27:03):
that being like, oh my god, it's the most important
film of a generation, and Oscar's Oscars Oscars.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
It's also what the book is kind of written in
conversation with originally, because the like push but wait the
Precious based on the Novelshire was just like printed on
my brain. But the novel by Sapphire, which was called Push,
came out in nineteen ninety six, and I think was
like part of what inspired Perceval Everett to write this

(27:32):
in the first place, was like like not taking issue
with the novel's existence, but with its embracing Like I
think that that's it's It seems like that's a lot
of where the character Satara comes from. Is Satara Sapphire,
you know.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
You know, yeah, I think it was an amalgamation. But yes,
I think that because I was thinking as soon as
you said Precious, immediately thought about for colored girls. I'm
just thinking about there's just like a list of these
kind of very traumatic works that have come from multiple
authors that have all of a sudden been celebrated in
a way that never made me quite feel that good.

(28:08):
I remember there's a there's a there was a film
that came.

Speaker 4 (28:11):
Out a few years ago.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
I completely forgot the name of it, but it was
about a black guy getting shot by the cops. And
I remember several white folks was like, have you seen
this film to me? And I was just like, no,
but I've seen the countless amount of videos of black
people being shot by the cops, So I certainly don't
need a dramatization of it. I don't, and I don't
think that's an important film for me to see. So

(28:33):
I hope you enjoy it, though, and I hope that
it pushes you forward in your politics.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Or whatever are you talking about? Was it called the
hate you give?

Speaker 4 (28:41):
Yes? The hate you give? Yes? Thank you. That's exactly
what it was.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
That you knew what I was talking about. Yes, But
I remember everyone's like, have you seen the hate you Give?
And I'm like, no, never, will, won't read the book.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
I get it.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
I don't need to see a play about like the
famous life from Euphoria. Is this play about us?

Speaker 4 (28:58):
Like I don't. I don't need, I don't need to
actually see.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
It, right, yes? Okay. So Monk finishes the book My
Pathology and sends it to his agent Arthur to send
out two publishers. Not because Monk wants to sell the book,
more to show the publishers how ridiculous and racist they're
being with their expectations of black writers. But a publisher

(29:27):
loves the book and wants to buy it and offers
Monk a huge advance.

Speaker 4 (29:32):
Before you proceed, Can I say one thing? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (29:34):
So o.

Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
He's talking to his agent, and his agent says that
his agent is resistant to him about this. He says,
you shouldn't do this. I don't think this is a
good idea. Monk has tried to push ahead. Monk says
something like, you know, I want to show them. I
want to rub their faces in it is. An agent
says back to him one of the hardest hitting lines
I've ever heard about white folks. He says, white people

(29:55):
think that they want the truth, but they don't. They
just want to be absolved. And I I said, this
is canon. They need to put it everywhere. They need
to put it on billboards. This is like to me,
it's practice. You could teach college courses just about this,
because it's the hardest thing. As matter of fact, you
could fill in this with any sort of marginalized spectrum.

(30:17):
If you go to one side of it, you could
replace white people with a lot of things. You say,
men think they want the truth. They don't, but they
just want to be absolved. There's so many ways that
this fits. Because everyone thinks that they're the exception to
the rule. They never assume that they're also part of
the problem, and they want to be told. They want
to read works like this and be told that they're

(30:38):
not part of the problem, that they're not the bad gentrifier,
that they want to be told that over and over again,
that they're they're the right man, you know what I mean.
So I've read that, I was like, oh my god,
this is and I still don't understand how that line
is not like laminated and put in like schools and
like and god we trust.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
No, just that there's still time, there's still time, You're sorry,
I mean, And I feel like it's that's in conversation
with like why are so many stories about marginalized people
taking place in the distant past, And I think that
that is like there it is kind of this like
anesthetizing effect of like, well, people used to be so horrible,
but you're fine, you're great, or like we talk about

(31:18):
all the time on the show like the like patriarchy
the guy kind of character, which is like showing a
man who's the worst man. So if you're a man
watching it, you're not as bad as that guy, so
you're probably fine. You know. It's like it's it's like
we see you, we see what you're doing, and Core
Jefferson does too.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah, I think this movie does a really good job
of showing, you know, well meaning but ultimately clueless white people.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Who even know if they're well meaning. Honestly, I think
it's like they're capitalists.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
For sure on the publishers. I guess what it is
is this movie shows does a good job of showing
the difference between white people caring about equity and black
liberation and white people not wanting to seem racist. Right,
All the white people we see in this movie fall
in the latter category.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yes, and they're all getting a cut too, Like I
don't think like no one is doing this out of
the goodness of their heart. They're like opportunistic and like
they're like, oh, I can appear to be not racist
and make ten percent of like you know, it's just
it's ugly.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
It's I think it's brilliantly nuanced in this film, because
later in the film there is a line about nuance
that comes up, and there is a line about listening
to black voices that comes up, which we'll get to.
But this film just stays firmly in the conversation of saying, Hey,

(32:54):
there's this thing that we're doing with race that is
becoming as problematic as all of the original problems that
you think that we resolved about race. And I feel
like for this movie to say this in twenty twenty
three is kind of all of these kind of parallel
narratives that happen during what we assume to be progress,
especially in the United States, and the people are writing

(33:17):
and saying, Hey, this other thing is happening, and everyone's like, ah,
we're not really worried about that so much. So I
really appreciate when a movie like this or any like
creative work just plainly states it in this way, even
though it doesn't always necessarily get heard.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
For sure, Yeah, absolutely so.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Monk is offered this huge advance for this book. He
doesn't want to sell it because he knows that it's trash,
but his mother's medical bills are piling up, so he
takes a call with a publisher, and at the encouragement
of his agent, Arthur, he puts on this different persona

(33:59):
to make him see more like hood to match the
vibe of the book. The publisher doesn't know that stagg
r Lee is felonious Ellison, and then Arthur adds the
detail that Stagg can't use his real name because he's
a wanted fugitive from the law. Meanwhile, Monk has started

(34:23):
seeing Coraline. He invites her over for dinner to meet
his mom. This is my favorite becdo test passing moment.
I'm not sure if this is the one that you
were talking about, Jamie, where Monk's mother, Agnes says, I'm
so glad you're not white, and Coraline says.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Me too too, and you're just like wow. That is
a very powerful exchange.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
Because we learned a little a little bit later that
other women that Monk has dated were white, and his
family had some thoughts about the women. Yeah, so that
line gets contextualized a little bit more, but it's still
so funny.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
It's also like meta commentary on like the type of
black person that the Lonius Ellison is without being super overt.
In those conversations, we're learning more about him because we
only see him with a black woman in this film.
We don't see him with any other race of woman,
which is just funny to hear other folks talk about it,
because it just it tells us who he was or
how he's been perceived in the past was just another layer,

(35:29):
because this is also a black man that says, I
don't even really believe in race, which immediately.

Speaker 4 (35:34):
I'm like, I know who you are. I know you are,
and I hate you, but I know who you are.
You're very smart, but I hate your guts.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, the author of the has conundrum correct.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Oh okay, So one night Agnes goes missing. They quickly
find her walking around on the beach, but it's a
sign that she needs constant supervision, so Monk puts her
in an assisted living facility. Then Monk gets a call
from a guy from something called the Literary Awards saying

(36:09):
that they realized their panel of judges is not very
diverse and they're trying to fix that. So they want
to know if Monk will be one of the judges,
and he reluctantly agrees and finds out that Centaura Golden
is one of the other judges and Monk is like her.

(36:30):
Then Monk has a meeting with this guy Wiley played
by Adam Brody, a Hollywood director who's interested in adapting
his book. So Monk has to put on the stag
Lee persona again for a meeting with Wiley, and Wiley

(36:50):
is super impressed with him. He thinks he's the real deal.
So Wiley offers four million, Right, what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Adam Brody has had a very fun kind of filmography
in the Cult where he just kind of pops up
every once in a while and you're like, all right,
he pops up.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
He usually plays an abhorn.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
I'm trying to remember. It was he and promising young
woman like who was he was a piece of shit
and something else.

Speaker 4 (37:16):
Recently, think nobody wants this. I think that's the big
I think you would get on.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
I don't want it. I'm not interesting, but I do.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, he he's great at playing a piece of shit.
It's nice when an actor knows how punchable their own faces.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
My question for that though, was like, do you do
you think that I assume that he's aware of the
character that he's playing, But then it makes me it
goes back to say, do you think that he's like, well,
I'm not this guy. Do you think that he has
to be in touch with that guy a little bit
in order to actually.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Embody that guy?

Speaker 3 (37:55):
Yeah, there's a part of me that's like, humm, but
I only think that to say, he played the role
very well, and I just hope that it's not in
him he did.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
I mean, that's a really good I don't know, I
was thinking about that on this viewing where it's like
most of the white characters we encounter are so highly
satirized and so like completely brain unplugged that you do
kind of wonder, like how are the actors engaging with
the material and like, and I also like wonder about

(38:26):
white audience members seeing this movie and being like, oh, well,
I'm not that so I'm I'm probably fine, you know.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, But also there are so many white people who
are exactly like every single white person we see in
this movie, so like, right, it's not even satire. And
then for the actors, well, you hear about actors who
often play villains or assholes, and then they turn out
to be a monstrous person themselves, and you're like, oh, yeah,

(38:53):
you weren't really even acting then, you were just kind
of being yourself.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
But right, well, it's like it's like Jeremy Iyern.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
It's like that. But then there are also actors who
usually play a villain, but by all accounts, they're like
the nicest person you've ever met, and it's just that
they're a really good actor. For example, Alfred Molina often plays.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
A villain Malina, but and he's a friend to all,
including us.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
He's our best friend, so I call him mal al Yeah,
Freddy Freddie Molina our best friend.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
I love so much, Freddy Freddie Molina our beloved.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah. Anyway, so who knows Adam Brody. We don't know
if he's a nice or not in real life, but anyway,
he is so impressed with stagg Lee and thinks he's
so authentic, and he offers four million dollars for the
movie rights. Then Monk and Arthur talked to the publishers

(39:54):
again about selling the book and like marketing it, and
Monk is like, I can't believe they like this shit.
This is so absurd, and so to fuck with them,
he says that he wants to change the title of
the book to simply the word fuck, and the publishers
are like, yeah, okay, that's a great idea, that's so brave,

(40:18):
let's do it.

Speaker 4 (40:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Absolutely, So the book Fuck is published and debuts at
number one on the New York Times bestseller list. Monk
discovers the core line has a copy of it and
that she has read it and liked it, and he's like, well,
what did you like about it? It's reductive slop because

(40:40):
he has not told her that he is Staglee and
that he wrote the book. Pretty much no one knows
except for his agent. And then they get into an
argument and she calls him out for being like pretentious
and cold and shut off and for acting like an asshole,
and it seems like they break up. Then Monk receives
a copy of Fuck, which had been submitted to the

(41:04):
Literary Awards, which means that he and the other judges
will have to evaluate it, and he's like, God, damn it. Meanwhile,
the family's housekeeper, Lorraine, is getting married to this guy
named Maynard. They have their wedding by the beach house.
Monk walks Lorraine down the aisle. It's very sweet. Also,

(41:27):
Monk's brother Cliff is back in town. He's on this
like horny bender because this is his first time having
gay relationships, so he's making up for lost time. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
Quick side note could ask a question, of course of y'all.
As soon as I saw the scene with the judges
of the Literary Award. I knew who Monk was on
that judging pedal. I we already understand whose character is.
We're learning who Sintaura is. However, the three white characters
are all to me, I felt like excellently picked and

(42:03):
portrayed in terms of the spectrum of whiteness and how
whiteness would interact on this panel and what it would
look like for them to build this panel. And I'm
curious for y'all to see these three white people. Did
any of them? Did any of them stand out to you?
They have a white woman and two white men, and
I'm curious, were any of you did they ping your
brain at all? Seeing these three white folks in particular?

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yes, yes, yeah, I mean I guess when I was
referring to like sometimes well meaning white people, et cetera,
et cetera, I had that the white woman in mind
for that, because you know, she seems like a pretty
typical like liberal white woman.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah who, And let's be honest, like we've been this
white woman before. Like absolutely, I think like I think
that there is an element to that character specifically, even
though it's like broadly drawn and like, oh yeah, that's
like I've there's been notes of me in that before,
and it's like, I think that's like part of what

(43:07):
makes the movie effective is like you should be seeing
shades of yourself in characters like that. And then like
the one of the older white guys too, was like,
I don't even know like how to describe what it is,
but it feels very like, oh, like a professor who
is like trying to relate with a black student and

(43:28):
being overly familiar and the vocabulary is weird and like
and you're just like, whatever this is, it's not working.
And yeah, no, I mean they all felt familiar. And
then in the case of the white woman, I was like, oh, no,
is this me in twenty sixteen? I know, yeah, yeah,
maybe some early Bechdel Cast episodes.

Speaker 4 (43:48):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, I think that is very true. And then there
was the third person, the other white man who seems
to be like a libertarian.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
Yes, that's exactly what he was, That's exactly what Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
I mean, well that's the guy who calls Monk, and
it's pretty blunt about like, hey, we're asking you to
do this because you're a black writer, and like Monk
is like awesome, cool. That feels no that's a different guy.
Oh wow, they all blurred together.

Speaker 4 (44:23):
Abo.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yes, yeah, because that guy.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Those two guys blurred together for me.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Okay, yeah, no, totally different guy. The guy who like
runs the Literary Awards is the one who calls Monk,
and he's the one who's like, we just noticed that
our panel of judges has never been diverse, so can
you be on it, Monk? And I love his response.

(44:48):
He says, I'm honored you'd choose me out of all
the black writers you could go to out of fear
of being called racist. And Monk is being very facetious
in that moment, but the white guy does not pick
up on it at all, and he's like, yeah, you're
very welcome.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
Well, And I also love how particular to like who
we know Monk to be. Is that what sells him
on it? Is like, well, yeah, we can't pay a lot,
and we are like making it clear to you why
we're asking you to do it, but you'll get to
talk as much shit as you want. And he's like,
I'll do it, Yes, I'm.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
In the I just want to point out the other
part that this movie does well is I just and
you probably you'll probably know like being as the originators
of the Bechdel Cast podcast, you probably know that there's
a movie out there that will show you all the
different types of men that if you were to interact
with all of them in one day, you would definitely
go home being like, I don't ever want to see

(45:40):
a man again in my life. And the thing is,
each of them individually aren't that bad. But if you
had to talk to all of them in one day,
you'd be like, no, get him out of here. This
movie does that for white folks, because if you go
from beginning to end and talk to each one of
these individual white fil I'm talking Philip on the beach,
the three professors in the beginning of the Junges at

(46:02):
the end, all, if you go through all of them,
you'd be like, oh, I will be hanging out with
Coraline by the beach and not talking to a white
person ever.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
Again.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
I think that's that's very hard to manage, that type
of like nuance and saying hey, individually, I love all
these folks together, y'all gotta stop, right.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
I Mean, I'm just like and I don't know, like
what the adaptation is there, but just even like looking
at core Jefferson's career. It's like I would wager, I
guess that there's a lot of his own experience in
those exchanges, because it's like this guy was in the
room for Succession, you know, like there, you have to
imagine that you're like and I'm a succession lover, I'm

(46:42):
a succession booster. But you have to imagine being a
black writer on Succession was maybe not the easiest job
one of the whitest shows ever committed.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
To the good place then Succession in both of them
in terms of and I'm saying, like you, these are
both good. I love both of these shows, to be clear,
I think they're great. But to be a black person
in the room for either of those I imagine. Because
then he follows that up with the watch with Watchman.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
With Watchman but which is run by Damon lindelof which
I mean famously famously and.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
So like, I just I don't know.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
I was like, I want, maybe they exist. I didn't
have time to listen to a ton of core Jefferson interviews,
but like I want, I want the memoir.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
Really, I have a ton of follow up questions for
him on this.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
He most recently wrote on the New IT series too.
I was like Range, Range, which was supposed to be
really good. I didn't watch it.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah me either Welcome to Dairy or something, which I
always get confused with Dairy Girls. I'm like, oh, is
it set in that same place? And it's not.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
Yeah, it's a crossover.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
I'll watch anything with Bill Scar's card. I'll do it.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
I'll do it.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
I'll do anything for that man. Scary clowns included.

Speaker 4 (47:52):
To be clear, it's not a crossover. I just if
this makes the podcast please.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
People are hitting the reddit like, wait a second, wait
a minute, Welcome.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
It's called a joke. Okay. So Lorraine and Maynard's wedding happens.
Then the five judges for the Literary Awards gather to
figure out who to like give the main award to,

(48:25):
and they discuss the book Fuck and the white judges
love it. Sintaura and Monk are like, no, it's bad.
And then there's a scene where Monk and Sintaura talk
about her book and like literature in general, I want
to more closely look at this scene during our discussion

(48:45):
because I like wrote out the entire thing and I
want to talk all about it. But basically, she makes
some points that he perhaps hadn't fully considered, and then
we see him call his agent and set up another
meeting with that Hollywood guy Wiley because Monk has a
new idea, which we will soon find out about. In

(49:08):
the meantime, despite Monk and Centaur's protests, the three white
judges for the literary awards decide to give Fuck the
first place, like Book of the Year or whatever award.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
Can I ask something bizarre and annoying? Sorry? What was that?
I was trying to remember? And I couldn't find it
in my notes because my ever note has now been
dominated by AI and I can't find shit. What was
the name of the husband's book in Past Lives? And
was it also fuck?

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Oh my gosh, it was like Boner or something.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
It was called like peep? Like what was it called?
I was not able to figure it out because it
only appears in a couple of shots. But I remember
that we really appreciated, like, He's like, it's my debut novel.
It's called Boner.

Speaker 4 (50:00):
Wow?

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Okay, wow?

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Were there two novels named called fuck in twenty twenty three? No,
there was Fuck and Knowner.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
I celebrate that.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
Something to note when they when they are having this conversation,
and this was like kind of like the when I
was thinking about the different types of white folks. It
says they when they decide that they are going to
do it. And this is first of all genius the
way they set this up. The black folks are sitting
on one side of the table, there's two of them.
The white folks are sitting on the other. And as

(50:33):
they decide that it's that fuck is going to win.
Way to decide that that's the winner. The woman judge
I forgot her name, she turns to the table and
she says, it's not just that it's affecting. I just
think that it's essential to listen to black voices right now.
And the camera shot just shows the three white people
looking at the two black people who just said, we

(50:54):
don't want to pick this book.

Speaker 4 (50:56):
I write Chef's Kiss beautiful. That's how you that.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
It was incredibly frustrating. I don't feel any resolution there,
but thanks for at least they put it in a
way that if you're white and you saw that scene,
you had to be like, oh no, am I in
this picture?

Speaker 4 (51:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (51:18):
No, The irony in that moment is I mean, it's
a it's a it's a funny visual joke, and then
it's also just like damn, yeah, this this is how
white people are, so yeah they they Despite Centaura and
Monk's protests, the three white judges decide to give Fuck

(51:38):
the Book of the Year award. Monk is like, ugh,
I guess and he he invites Coraline to be his
date at the awards ceremony, but she does not respond.
She has not been replying to his texts. Then we
cut to the ceremony. Coreline shows up. Fuck is announced

(52:01):
as the winner, and Monk goes to the stage and
is presumably about to reveal himself as stag r Lee,
but then we cut to black and we realize that
this is part of his screenplay that Monk has written
and is showing Wiley, and Wiley is like, well, that

(52:22):
can't be the ending. This is unresolved. You know, the
character of Monk should say something.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
It almost this is like obviously very very different material,
but it is kind of giving the end of Greta
Gerwig Little Women too, where oh my gosh, yeah where
It's like, wait, how should it end? I don't know?
I don't know. I didn't. I don't know why I
didn't connect that the first time I saw it. But
I was like, oh wait, that's actually very similar, very similar,
hunting to very different movies.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
You talk about what guy was very confused by the
ending of Little Women, a movie that I very much enjoyed,
but I had to google eight thick pieces before I wait,
what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (52:58):
That was? I have to I haven't seen since it
came out, have to return. I do remember the think
pieces back when? Do you remember we were still publishing things,
you know, twenty nineteen it was a sim more time.

Speaker 4 (53:11):
I missthink pieces, bring them back.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yeah, we were people, weeople were gettingaid upwards of fifty dollars.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
First.

Speaker 4 (53:18):
Remember when we used to publish things. I was gonna say,
you remember when we used to think.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
Vaguely?

Speaker 1 (53:23):
It's true. Now we just thinking rooms by ourselves and
say never mind, never mind.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Or people have chat GBT think for them and we
need to see it and chat GBT says, no more thinking,
no more thinking, no more, no more. But no, I
didn't make that connection at all. But yeah, at the
end of Little Women twenty nineteen, Yes, it's sir, sha
Ronan's character, Oh my gosh, who just play Joe pitching

(53:49):
her book to a publisher and he's being like, no,
I don't like that ending. Make it. I think he
wants it to be like more like neatly resolved.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
It's yeah, it's like to justify why the actual ending
of Little Women is like, and then Joe got married
and she was pretty happy, right, that's like so like
you're like, wait, Joe March, who we understand is clearly
a queer woman.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Sure, yeah, yeah, she marries a man. Okay, yeah right. Anyways, anyway,
so Wiley is like, this ending is no good. So
Monk pitches this ending at the awards ceremony, where Monk
runs out and he goes to Coreline's house to apologize
and try to make up with her, and Wiley is like, nah,

(54:41):
that makes the whole movie feel too much like a
rom com. That's not what we're going for. So then
Monk is like what about this. At the awards ceremony,
Monk the character goes up to accept the award, but
just then the FBI comes in because they've been after
stag Leave since they heard that he was a wanted criminal,

(55:02):
and they shoot and kill Monk, not realizing that Staglee
is not a real person.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
He's also holding a transparent trophy in his hand that
is clearly not good and they say.

Speaker 4 (55:16):
Which I was like, Oh that's beautiful. Yes, it's going
to go Cord.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
You did it, You did it.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
So then we cut back to Wiley and he's like, yes,
this idea is perfect, let's shoot it. And then the
movie ends with Monk on a studio lot. They're gonna
make the movie that he wrote, and he gets in
the car with Cliff and makes a joke about Tyler Perry.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
The end, Cliff has a different haircut, which made me wonder.
I didn't know if this was production or storytelling. Is
this you lost Stirlely Kate Brown. We had to do
a reshoot and he had a different haircut, and we
were just like, oh, that's fine, or is this storytelling?
Are you telling me that there's other parts of the
story that weren't as we knew them. I remember I

(56:03):
thought that for a moment and I just put it
out of my mind. I was like, maybe it's nothing.
I don't know what y'all thought.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
Here's here's my head cannon. Because I noticed the different haircut.
So he has been making new gay friends and lovers. Yeah,
and I feel like one of them is like, let's
give you a makeover.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Gotcha new haircut, name name that works. Yeah. I guess
I was just I wasn't thinking about the haircut. That
was a failure on my part. I was just like, wow, yay,
I loved.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
Him anyway, Well that's the movie. Let's take another quick
break and we'll come back to discuss.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
And we're back back.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
I want to pick up where we left off about
him talking to the producer. There's a line that Wiley
says where he basically says, when he's talking about the endings,
he says, Nuance doesn't put asses in theater seats. And
that felt incredibly meta because this is a very nuanced film,
a very nuanced film, and I feel like even the

(57:13):
way that he ended, I remember at the time that
I originally watched it thinking, is this a bit of
a cop out? Are you not just going to tell
us how this story ends? Or is it a safe
is it a safety move for you to just be
like So I just walked out of the awards, never
talked to Coroline again, and now I'm pitching a movie
to you. All the problems here are solved. We're driving
off into the sunset. But I remember watching it this

(57:34):
time and feeling a lot more satisfied, probably because I
had nothing to expect. I kind of already knew where
it was going, so I had no more expectations of
the film. But that line, nuance doesn't put asses in
theater seats. I was just like, Yeah, that's that's true.
That's that's production right now in Hollywood.

Speaker 4 (57:51):
That's like, no, we can't. We can't do the risky
nuance thing. We have to someone has to win or
lose at the end.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Even though like whenever someone does do the risky nuance thing,
people go to see it, which is like the lesson
we learned over and over and over and over. But
you know, you're just like told repeatedly people don't want this,
and it's like, well, then why do they keep exactly
going to see it?

Speaker 2 (58:12):
Thinking about although I mean this, like you said, Ronald,
this is a nuanced film and it only earned twenty
three million dollars at the box office on a ten
million dollar budget.

Speaker 4 (58:23):
So like with an Oscar campaign, the point is kind.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Of being proven, right, I mean It got tons of awards,
recognition and nominations, but a lot of people didn't see it,
at least not in theaters.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
I wonder how wide the release ended up being too.
I don't know. I live in Burbank, where there's a
million AMCs. I'm living a very spoiled lifestyle. I can
see whatever the hell I want. I saw. I saw
Peter Hujar's Day by accident. That's how good things are here.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Wait what you saw?

Speaker 1 (58:56):
What? Literally? There's well, it's a Ben Wishaw movie about
a historical figure. I was not aware of a queer
photographer named Peter Hujar. I forget what movie I was
trying to see, but I went into the wrong movie
theater and then I just randomly saw Peter Hujar's Day,
and I was like, wow, what perfank?

Speaker 4 (59:14):
Why did I just imagine you sitting there eating your
popcorn being like, man, this slaps?

Speaker 1 (59:18):
What is this? I was? It was definitely you know,
like when you just like have a Sunday and you're like,
I'm just the world's gonna happen to me today. Yeah,
because I forget what I might I think I was
trying to see Blue Moon, and then I still I
feel confident that I was directed to the wrong theater
because I've never done this before. And then like ten
minutes in, I was like, I don't think Ethan Hawk

(59:40):
is coming. I think this is a But then I
stayed and then you're saying, good, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
That's great. I went to go see Nickel Boys and
theaters and turns out I walked into the wrong theater
because suddenly Tofer Grace was on screen. And then I
realized I was watching that movie. I think it was
called flight Plan or something.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
It's called flight Risk. Flight Risk, Yes, WHOA what a
different film.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
And then I was like, I don't think tof for
Grace is in Nickel Boys.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
I was like, that is an abrupt shift.

Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
Yeah. Mark Wahlberg shows up Bald and you're like, what's
going on?

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Yeah, the Mark Wahlberg Bald movie, The Bald, the Mark
Boldberg movie a Berg.

Speaker 4 (01:00:22):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
I got like three minutes into it, I was like,
I don't think I'm in the right movie. And then
I got up and walked into the correct movie and
saw on Nickel Boys.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
But I took it as a sign from the universe.
I was like, the universe wants me to see Peter
Hujar's Day and it didn't make it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Yeah, I was gonna say the universe was taking care
of you probably, and like they were like, eh, you're
not in a blue Moon mood.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Come see the oone and I will say, like I
did see Blue Moon later, and I like Peter Hujar's
Day better. I would recommend it if anyone wants to
learn about Uh. And it's great. It's Ben Wishaw and
Rebecca Hall and they're the only two people in the movie.
I enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
Okay, nice anyway, Anyways, American fiction.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
I wanted to just really quickly close the loop on adaptation. Yeah. Uh.
Personal Everett was like, uh, it was interesting. I was like, oh,
what a scary thing that Core Jefferson like did a
special screening for Personval Everett and was like it was
the scariest thing that has ever happened, like being like, hey,

(01:01:20):
I adapted your you know, and Personal Evert was not
really involved in the production and there are a lot
of changes made and he like didn't really say anything
about it. Personal Evert's like he's fun to read his
interviews because he's he's a weird He's a weird man.
Where he's like, I don't know, it's like sort of
it's twenty five years later. It's kind of removed. I
feel removed from it. And then he just like spends

(01:01:43):
the rest of the interviews showing the writer a bunch
of paintings he's working on, so he's an artiste. But
the changes that are made are generally ones that move
focused towards the family, because the book is like a
bit a good chunk of the book is fuck or
my pathology, and like, the family elements are all preserved

(01:02:06):
from the book, but they're definitely expanded on in a
way that it was interesting reading different critics and writers
takes on. The one thing that I did want to
point out that was like a significant change that I
like don't quite understand is the changes with Lorraine's character,
where in the book there is a pretty significant class

(01:02:31):
tension between Lorraine and the Ellisons that is mostly done
away with in the movie. And again it's like not
that I'm like I want to see a like an
unhappy class dynamic in this family, but yeah, like it's
the story with Lorraine I think is like far there's

(01:02:51):
not really as much friction in it as there was
in the book in a movie that otherwise is like
very down to deal with class.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
It felt like they season the movie with kind of
the spectrum of blackness, which I appreciate, saying like there
are different types of black people. These are one type
of black people, and here's a different type. And I
feel like it was you have to be paying attention
in some porsches to really get that, whether it's the
interactions between Lorraine and the family, the fact that she
works for them and they are calling her family, and

(01:03:21):
also the way they are treating her as someone who
works for them is almost like an auntie. It's very
anti coded, it's very Grandma Codedy. It feels very familiar.
But there's an interaction that happens between Maynard and a
monk that I want to point out where Maynard is
basically he does something that I've seen black folks do
when they know that you are doing well and they

(01:03:43):
then make a suggestion to you about what you should
do with your career, and the suggestion denotes no knowledge
of how any of this works. When he looks Disband
in his face and says cis and he goes it's
a pretty popular show.

Speaker 4 (01:03:57):
You should write for it, and I want it to
be like, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:04:00):
Know what y'all think happens at the successful levels of
being a writer, and he is a moderately successful writer.
But it doesn't mean that you could just walk into
a TV writer's room and start writing for television.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Hello, I would like to write for ncis exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
I'm like, if you got that job, he'd probably love it,
to be honest with you, but I remember thinking about
that as being a notable distinction about what types of
black folks these are, which for me, it's like, if
you're around a lot of black people, you would notice that,
but it might not be something that is kind of
as highlighted as you mentioned that it was.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
In the book.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the closest it got
to really calling out the class dynamic word like they
are very close, but also they are her employers, and
like the lines are clearly very murky, even though everybody
loves each other. It's during one of Monk and Cliff's
many like tense interactions about money, so again it's like
they need enough money to send their mother to a facility,

(01:04:57):
and there is the class dynamic of like part of
why Monk you know, compromises his creativity so severely is
because he needs money, and like you know, it's very present.
But there's like that little exchange where Monk is like,
can you, like, can you contribute so that we can
take care of mom? And he's like, well, I don't know,
like you could always just fire Lorraine, And I was like, uh, okay,

(01:05:21):
So there's the line. So it's like acknowledged and never again.
It's like, you know, I understand like why those decisions
are made. But it did make sense to me that
that was like expanded upon in the book, like that
tension of like, yes, we do consider you a member
of our family, but there are these like dynamics where

(01:05:43):
she was spoken about behind her back as expendable.

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
Basically I will say he did respond and say she's family. Yeah,
I put a button on that like which which which?

Speaker 4 (01:05:51):
Try? I put it down real quick and it's funny.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
Well, then the other part if you think about the
fact that she marries Maynard and then no longer is
living in this life of servitude because marriage is the
thing that gets her out of that life, which I mean,
there's something to be said there about the terms of
like her class changed, Yeah, my marriage, which is an
old school way of thinking, but it's also very true

(01:06:15):
for a lot of women generally, and especially in some
cases for black women.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Right, And it's like again, I'm like, it's so And
maybe it's because like Percival Everet's writing style is so
like uh like pointy. That's a terrible adjective, but like
very like blunt. That having those plot points like present
but not quite as blunt was like interesting because yeah,
I mean it's we live in a society, and I

(01:06:43):
was like, God, I just wish we knew a little
bit more about like Lorraine's interior life. I love that
she gets a love story and that she is like
celebrated and like surrounded by people who love her. But yeah,
I think that was like really the only thing in
this movie that I was like, I wonder why we
didn't get into that a little bit more because money
in class are like very much on the table for
this whole movie.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, I was gonna say that. I
did really appreciate the movie sets aside time to show
a romance between Lorraine and Maynard, because you almost never
see an on screen love story between two older people,
let alone to older black people. So the fact that

(01:07:23):
that's there was very refreshing. Yeah, the class situation there
did feel skimmed over.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
I mean, like one movie can't do anything, but I
just because it was dealt with in the source material,
felt worth mentioning for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
Also, there's a part where they're talking about what it's
going to cost per month for Agnes to live in
assisted living, and different numbers get thrown around, but it's
going to cost at least like five thousand dollars a month,
which is so much money, and Cliff says something like, well,

(01:08:00):
doesn't Medicare take care of that? And Monk goes like, well,
that's not how it works. You're a doctor, shouldn't you
know that? And he's like, man, I know. But like
that also felt so real for me because the number
of doctors I've talked to who don't seem to understand
how like insurance and billing works, and they completely they're like, oh,
you can't afford this, well darn, I don't know. Can

(01:08:23):
you call your insurance company? And it's just like, why
don't you know this?

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Yeah, you're very That's.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
A tiny, tiny moment, but yeah, I wanted to point
that out for sure, I.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Mean, and it is. It is a nice facility. And
I did appreciate that they put actual numbers in there too,
because for people who have never I mean including myself,
like I've never had been involved in the finances of
helping a relative get into a facility, and like having
those numbers, like as blunt as they are, I feel

(01:08:54):
like it's always a good thing. Yeah, because it's terrifying.
You're like, Yeah, who the fuck can afford that? Everyone
would have to sell out their morals and write their
version of fuck to be able to afford that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Truly. Yeah, can we talk about the other women in
this story, Jamie? You alluded to this already, but to me,
it felt like I don't think the characters were undercooked,
but it felt like a lot of the storylines either
kind of went unresolved or they just sort of tapered off,

(01:09:31):
or we didn't get as much emphasis on the characters
who are women as I would have liked. But as
we said, like, Lisa's such a great character, I know,
but then she has an untimely death corline. I also
really enjoy her as a character, and I don't mind
that she doesn't that like she and Monk don't make

(01:09:52):
up because he was being a fucking asshole and she
doesn't owe him anything, she doesn't have to forgive him,
and in the scope of this story that we see
on screen, she doesn't forgive him and there isn't any
closure there, which again is fine, but also then that
means her character just sort of disappears.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
Well. It's also when we get information about her at
the beginning, like in her introductory scene basically where like
she is a lawyer. She talks about like how she
feels about the ethics of defending, like being a public
defender defending guilty people. We find out that she is
in the process of like either a long term relationship

(01:10:34):
or a divorce like happening. But I wouldn't say any
of that information is relevant in future scenes, Like I
appreciate that we learn things about her, but it is
not really plot relevant information, which is always kind of
like a tiny red flag for me and writing women
characters in the modern day, where it's like, oh, we
can't tell you nothing about her, Let's just tell you

(01:10:55):
a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter. You're like, okay,
it's a little thing. But I was like I liked
getting to know her at the first scene and then
but then she does sort of just become a girlfriend
for the remainder of the movie, I.

Speaker 3 (01:11:09):
Think for me, in contrast to Tracy Ellis Ross, who
comes in strong and is abruptly taken away from us,
the way that Rika Alexander is introduced is kind of
is a little bit more. It's she's she's mixed in
a little bit more like we get some of her,
we get more of her, and we get more and

(01:11:30):
more of her until we get basically get less of
her towards the end.

Speaker 4 (01:11:35):
And I feel like there's and maybe this is.

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):
Because I love these women so much in terms of
their bodies of work that for me, I'm like, I'm
just every time they're on screen, I'm happy to see them,
which kind of made me not think nearly as much
about the ways in which they were, in some cases
used or underdeveloped as plot devices for the journey that

(01:11:58):
Monk is going on, because there's there's no reason for
you to make a movie like this and not be
able to have fully fleshed out women characters that are
doing something. But it seemed like all of the women
were doing one thing collectively for Monk, whereas it was
about his relationship with his mother, his relationship with Lorraine,

(01:12:18):
his relationship with his sister, and his relationship with Erica,
and all of those served one purpose as opposed to
breaking them out and making them a lot more unique.
In terms of a feat of casting, watching this film,
I loved seeing all of these women, But in terms
of the story, it is a little bit like, hmm,
there could have been more here, But I don't know

(01:12:39):
how I would fix it if I were him, because
that's not the story that he wanted to tell, right Well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
I mean a lot of movies that do what this
movie is doing, which is, you know, examining some societal
issue or satirizing something or you know, putting some societal
ill under the magnifying glass. A lot of movies that
do that will criticize it, but then ultimately still end

(01:13:09):
up doing the thing because of the way the story
is told or whatever. This movie doesn't do that because,
in addition to providing the commentary about underdeveloped and stereotypical
Black characters in media, it also avoids the stereotypes and
develops its characters and gives all of those characters interior lives.

(01:13:32):
And arcs, even though you know some of them are small,
but that's the thing, Like they're little subplots in a
larger story that is about Monk and his work. Right,
So I feel like this is one of the few
movies I have seen actually that like doesn't criticize or
satirize the thing and then also end up doing the

(01:13:53):
bad thing. So it can be done for sure. I
feel like we've come up We've talked about a lot
of movies like that on this podcast, where it's like, well,
it's like criticizing the thing, but it's also still doing
the thing. But this movie doesn't do that, and I
appreciate that. And so yeah, the fact that we get
like we get a little arc for Cliff a queer

(01:14:16):
black man, we get an arc for for Coraline, and
it's in the context of her relationship with Monk, but
you know, there we get to know her character a bit.
We get a small arc for Agnes kind of again,
that's that feels like it goes sort of unresolved.

Speaker 3 (01:14:32):
But well, I think they assume that money money solves
that problem, so right, they're like, if if he has
more money, then obviously this problem is solved, which is
we we don't get the full resolution, especially because we
think about the same between Agnes and Cliff with they're
dancing in the in the home and she says she

(01:14:54):
says to him, I knew you wasn't queer or something
like that where I was just like, oh my god,
and and and sterly Kate Brown acts it so well
as he wells up with tears and leaves, but we
don't really get a resolution there either. But you also
get an understanding of why maybe he doesn't want to
be around his mother, even if she does have Alzheimer's.
But you're right, it's not since we don't see her anymore.

(01:15:15):
Even though she has these like lines where she's like
saying such profound things like she talked about her husband
and says and says like that, there's a story in
there when she says I knew he was cheating on me,
and he goes, why did you leave her?

Speaker 4 (01:15:29):
Leave him?

Speaker 3 (01:15:30):
And she says, I do, he would be too lonely
if I left. I was like, Yo, that is wow,
I know so much there.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
You know, Boomers, Boomers, what we do see in these
characters feels so familiar with what we all experience as
humans in our relationships with our family and our romantic relationships,
and even if they seem like they go unresolved in
the context of a story, that's also how a lot

(01:16:00):
of relationships end up like they There isn't like a neat,
tidy resolution. There isn't like this amazing closure. So because
we get so much insight into these characters and their
philosophies about life and their feelings and their regrets. There's

(01:16:20):
also that scene where Cliff is talking to Monk and
he's saying, how he he resents that that their father
died before Cliff came out to him.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
Yeah, I mean that's that's the Oscar nomination scene, right,
It's a great scene.

Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
And Monk is saying like, well, what if he rejected you?
And Cliff's like, well, I would have rather him reject
the real me than him not knowing who I actually am.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Well, okay, so with that though, and I am gonna
like a little I still feel like and again it's
like because of it's being adapted from another source, it's
difficult because it seems like the structure of the story
being adapted is like there is a woman involved in
like each area of Monk's life, and Monk is the

(01:17:11):
main character, so it's just like there's not a lot
of women in rooms together because they tend to either
want like I have no issue with like, you know,
like not every thread being completely tied up by the
end of the movie, because that's life and it feels
very in step with what the movie is. But I
do feel like, you know, that scene with Cliff is

(01:17:31):
so profound and so good, and I wish that there
were more scenes like that with the many women who
we meet throughout this movie. I think, I mean, I
think Ronald like echoing what you were saying about Agnes
is scene talking about putting up with her husband's infidelities
for like this very like I don't know, like heart
wrenching reason like those are. That's a really strong moment,

(01:17:54):
and I you know, I just think that this story
in general does favor those kinds of realizations for its
male characters. Yeah, which is like, you know, not unusual,
but it's just I think it stands out to me
here because we have not just a lot of women
in the story, but a lot of like heavy hitters

(01:18:15):
where I'm like, I wanted that scene for you know,
Eric Alexander, I don't know. I did feel like we
there had to be a way to get these women
in the room with each other more. But I mean
we also have Sinara, who we haven't talked about yet.

Speaker 2 (01:18:30):
Yes, ooh uh. Like I mentioned that, I wrote out
pretty much that entire scene where she and Monk are
talking as they're like evaluating the different books for the
Literary Awards, and you know, she says, I think that
the book Fuck is pandering and soulless, and Monk is like, exactly,

(01:18:54):
but no offense. How is that different from your book
We's Lives in the Ghetto And she's like, well, I
did a lot of research from my book, and I
pulled from real people's interviews and experiences, and even though
that's not my personal experience, I write about what interests people.
And he's like, well, you're catering to like these white

(01:19:14):
publishers who are obsessed with black trauma porn. And she
defends her choices about she says, that's.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
That's what the market wants. And that's where I thought
the line of hypocrisy existed here because for me, the
biggest I think the As that conversation is happening, she says,
what the market wants. But she ends up putting a
button on that scene by saying potential because he says,
I just think black people have more potential than that,
and she says potential is what people saying when people

(01:19:45):
think what's in front of them isn't good enough. And
it was a dunk line, but I remember saying, you
don't deserve that line because you can't even see. If
you could see that his book is pandering, then you
have to see out your book, even if it was
well researched, is also pandering. But I think both of

(01:20:05):
them were such imperfect vessels to deliver the point that
they end up talking past each other in this incredible
way that again ultimately made me more frustrated than satisfied.

Speaker 4 (01:20:18):
But it was interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:20:19):
I watched that scene like a couple times, and I
totally agree with like you're like, okay, no one is
like definitively right, Like they're both like, which is like awesome,
And I just I hope that like audience members like
register that because you're like, there are so many great
lines and you're like, well sure, but like, are you

(01:20:40):
the ideal person to be saying that? It's because they're
both at the end of the day, and it's like
this is something that we should all talk about and
be aware of. It's like, at the end of the day,
they're both trying to make a living doing this, and
so like, I don't know, yeah, Centaro was so interesting
and I really liked that, you know, you see, and
it's mostly like just in Jeffrey writes performance of like

(01:21:01):
just watching him listen to her of like, oh fuck,
I like her, you know, like even though clearly like
they are not on board with what the other is
doing and they find each other to be pandering in
different ways, but like, yeah, I mean, Cintaura is clearly
like a really smart, really good writer who it's just like,

(01:21:22):
all right, come on, like, admit you're doing it a
little bit too, like everyone is complicit in and it's
like in this capitalist art structure.

Speaker 2 (01:21:33):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
It's a great scene though, it's so good. She's saying
the right things.

Speaker 3 (01:21:38):
Did y'all notice also that this is just a small thing,
just like like, as a black person, I got really
excited the fact that they don't disparage each other in
front of white people, like they were disagreed that there.
But as soon as the white woman came back into
the room, they stopped talking, and then also when they
pick up the conversation again, they are still united that

(01:21:58):
this book should not win, which even though they they've
dug into it for the right, for the wrong reasons, whatever,
they both agree on that thing, and that's the front
that they present, which I'm like, that is that is
real being black. There are something just so many times
but I'm just like, I don't like this thing, but
I'm not gonna tell y'all the reason why, or I'm
not gonna They're certainly not gonna dunkle my brother here

(01:22:20):
because we we we we have work to do here
or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:22:23):
But I really appreciated that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
Yeah, the button on that scene is so funny because
you know, they've they've just had this very intellectual and
very nuanced conversation. The white woman comes in like completely clueless, like, oh,
so what are we talking about?

Speaker 1 (01:22:41):
Another moment where were like, oh no, is that me? Hi? Everybody?

Speaker 2 (01:22:46):
I know, I'm like, oh no, has this been men
statistically very it's been like that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:54):
Yeah, that scene is really really Uh. I feel like
Ray's performance in this movie is very to rate it
very good because that to me. I'm like, that's an
Oscar nomination scene just as much as the Sterling K
brown Wood is. It's it's really really good.

Speaker 4 (01:23:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Also the moment as they're talking when he's saying like,
your writing is reductive and it like flattens black people
as a whole, and she says, well, do you get
angry at Brett Easton Ellis or Charles Bukowski for writing
about the down trodden? Or is your ire strictly reserved
for black women? And then he's like no, and she's like,

(01:23:30):
you're directing your frustration at the wrong people. It sounds
like you have a problem with white people trying to
uphold the status quo rather than me and my work.
So just a few other because again, there's so many
good lines of dialogue or just great moments in this
movie that I want to shout out. The scene where

(01:23:51):
Monk goes into probably like a Barnes and Noble or
something and he discovers that his all of his novels
are in the African American studies section, and uh, he's
like kind of badgering the sales clerk and he's just like,

(01:24:12):
I don't I don't choose where the books go, and
then Monk takes all of his books and I think
just like categorizes them in like the regular fiction section.

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
Uh, it's so good, it's so good again. I feel
like applies to a wide variety of experiences too, where
it's like, why is this book being categorized as not
well whatever? Like how generally white authors and white male
authors specifically are the ones who are categorized as like
general fiction. But if you are marginalized in any way,

(01:24:44):
all of a sudden, you're in a Monk situation where
you're being put in African American fiction. You're being put
in like women's studies. I've once found my book about
hot dogs in women's studies. It was like, excuse me.

Speaker 4 (01:24:57):
Like adults, what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
It's just you're like, it's it's niche, because your niche.
And I've loved that scene of him stomping around with
forty copies of the has what what was it called again,
being like this is for everyone, this is great.

Speaker 2 (01:25:21):
Yeah, loved that. Loved just all the scenes with the
the white people at the publishing company when they're like, yeah,
we're this book is so important and so brave, and
we're going to release it on Juneteenth, and yeah, it
should be called fuck. That's actually that's a great title

(01:25:42):
for a book.

Speaker 1 (01:25:43):
Like literally, I mean, there's one line where one of
the guys is like, honestly that this would be a
great time to capitalize on white guilt and that'll help
move copies. And it's like, even though they're so cartoony
in certain points, like what they're saying is very self aware.
They know exactly what they're doing, and yeah, it's ugly.

Speaker 2 (01:26:02):
Also, the movie that Wiley character is currently directing called
Plantation Annihilation or my God.

Speaker 3 (01:26:10):
They got went in on Ryan Reynolds were talking about
it was one thing me seeing it on the chairs,
I was like, this is hilarious.

Speaker 4 (01:26:16):
This is hilarious.

Speaker 1 (01:26:18):
It was great, I mean, and it's super fast. But
they were like, oh and Ryan Reynolds, isn't it because
Ryan Reynoldsn'tlake Lively famously got married on a plantation and
will never have to stop apologizing for it because that's
fucking unhinged.

Speaker 3 (01:26:34):
I will say, white folks at the time that they
got buried out of Plantation, a lot more white folks
than just them were getting married on plantations, and no
one saw it as an issue until someone was like, Hey,
why y'all get married on Plantations, And then everyone immediately
was like, oh no, we definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:26:52):
He's in like twenty twelve. It was shockingly recent. Anyways,
I just I liked that, especially like in I don't know,
I just thought that was like really ballsy and cool
to take a swipe at one of the world's most
famous actors in your first movie rocked. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:10):
Also, the plot of Plantation annihilation sort of sounds like
the plot of Titanic two or no Titanic three, sorry,
Titanic six six six, Oh yes.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
Starring another member of the girlfriend's cast, I believe, unfortunately
for her. Oh my gosh, Keisha Sharp Yeah right. In
Titanic six x six what can you look? Look?

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
Yeah, a movie about the ghosts of all the people
who were killed on the Titanic coming back and murdering
the passengers of a ship called Titanic.

Speaker 1 (01:27:46):
Three to the original, I believe.

Speaker 2 (01:27:48):
Yeah, yes, yes, really fine filmmaking. We can all agree.

Speaker 1 (01:27:52):
Hy Look, look, I had a good time. I think
about it more than many good movies I've seen, So.

Speaker 4 (01:27:58):
That what you will, that's metric?

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):
Am I thinking about it?

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
Yes, it's always top of mind.

Speaker 4 (01:28:07):
I think more about memes that that I do about
Oscar winners.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):
Oh gosh, yeah. Does anyone else have any any other
thoughts on American fiction?

Speaker 4 (01:28:21):
I think we did it.

Speaker 2 (01:28:23):
Yeah, I mean yeah, just that, Like, I really appreciate
what this movie is doing, criticizing the stereotypical narratives about
Black Americans that white people and the media keep insisting
on perpetuating and trying to capitalize on their obsession with

(01:28:44):
stories about black suffering, the expectations that they put on
Black creatives that they can only tell certain types of
stories about certain types of characters, and monk being like,
let me let me write my books about like that
are at aations of Greek tragedies or whatever I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:29:04):
Truly, it's like it's there's whatever I mean, something we've
talked about in the show many times of like how
any marginalized community, but very often black writers and creatives
specifically are like expected to write autobiographically or from the
perspective of their own community and aren't just able to
write stories whatever the fuck they want to write about,

(01:29:25):
which is what actual creative equity looks like, is what
do you want to write? About what are you interested in?
And there's the book. And I really appreciate Monks even
though it's like the way he expresses it is often misguided,
but like I agree with that, Like that that's what
is creative equality if like you know, write about write
from you know, your own perspective if you want to.

(01:29:48):
But like that shouldn't be the expectation for any artist,
for sure. I just wanted to shout out also that
there's unusual. I was looking at the behind the scenes,
the crew, and there are a lot of women and
women of color involved behind the scenes in a way
that you don't normally see in movies. We have a
woman's cinematographer, edited by a woman, scored by a woman.

(01:30:13):
So just shout out because that is still so rare
in big movies. Totally.

Speaker 3 (01:30:20):
Yeah, I think generally it's this is a movie that
I enjoyed it when it came out. I enjoyed the
Oscar run, and I really felt like it was all
capped by Core Jefferson's speech, which was again he says
it was something along the lines of, Hey, have y'all
ever considered that you could just give a little money
to someone to make a better movie, rather than giving

(01:30:41):
a whole bunch of money to someone to make a
terrible movie, like what if you broke that budget up?
Like basically, that was the speech that he gave, which
I felt like to use his platform at that moment
for that was just excellent. And I think a lot
of this movie, the way it was made, the way
it was written, the way it all comes together, was
just very indicative of who I assume that Core Jefferson

(01:31:04):
is as a person. And ultimately it was a very satisfying.

Speaker 4 (01:31:07):
Film for me.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
Yeah, I really hope that he makes more movies and
gets the funding to make more movies.

Speaker 4 (01:31:15):
He's not asking for much.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):
He really isn't.

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
He really isn't.

Speaker 1 (01:31:19):
But it's like, thinking of that, I was like, God,
how many butts were clenched when he was like, you
you don't need to spend three hundred million dollars on
a piece of shit.

Speaker 2 (01:31:28):
I'm almost like, no, we do? We really do? We
have to make more Marvel movies?

Speaker 4 (01:31:34):
Yeah? Oh, speaking of which, y'all. Oh, no, I'm sorry.
I went to fred Bode not work Bow, but watch
wonder Man.

Speaker 1 (01:31:40):
The oh.

Speaker 2 (01:31:41):
I watched the first two episodes so far, and I'm
really enjoying it two years of TV to.

Speaker 4 (01:31:46):
Catch up on Jamie. Prioritize it, Okay, prioritize it to
put this on the top.

Speaker 1 (01:31:50):
I just got sick. This is a great time for
me to watch TV.

Speaker 4 (01:31:53):
Yes, yes, this will make you feel better.

Speaker 1 (01:31:56):
This will heal.

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):
The movie does pass the Bechtel test in that scene
that we mentioned earlier between Agnes and Coraline where they
are both happy that Coraline is not white.

Speaker 1 (01:32:11):
Which is an excellent, excellent, excellent pass. It could have
passed more, but we've kind of talked through that at
this point.

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):
As far as our nipple scale, where we rate the
movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based
on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, I think
because this movie accomplishes so much in its examination of
how black characters and black stories are represented in mainstream

(01:32:38):
media in the US, and has so many interesting and
poignant things to say about it. Not me being like
the like white judge on the panel or like that
white publisher lady. This is such an important film and
it's so brave.

Speaker 1 (01:32:58):
It's like it's giving the blour person.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
Sorry, sorry, Ronald, can you can you be quiet? Will
I am saying this, but no, I do truly love
this movie, and I think it's so awesome and funny
and it's accomplishing a lot. So I will give it
four nipples, I think again docking it a little bit

(01:33:23):
for not I think including the characters who are women
and their relationships with each other as much as I
feel like it could have, it feels like there was
room for it. But yeah, it's it's also it's doing
so much else. So four nipples, and I will distribute
them among Tracey Ellis, ross Issa ray Erica Alexander. I'll

(01:33:51):
give a half nipple to Keith David and his brief
cameo in the movie, and I'll give my other half
nipple to Sterling K. Brown, my longtime crush.

Speaker 1 (01:34:05):
I'm gonna be slightly pedantic and do three point seventy five.
I'm taking the little nipple slicer out just very saw,
which is very Jigsaw of me to do.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
I've like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:34:20):
My two gripes with this movie are, yeah, that we
have so many great women characters and we learn about them,
But I think I'm most specifically thinking about Coraline, where
we do learn a lot about her, but kind of
for no reason, and I just wish that she, you know,
had a little more to do that wasn't girlfriend dot

(01:34:41):
jpeg coded. But yeah, that said, there are a lot
of really rich characters throughout this movie. You can't give
everyone an arc. I get it, I'm just being picky.
That and the Lorraine class element are the two things
that like stuck out to me. But also, like you're saying, Kaitlin,

(01:35:01):
this movie is doing so much. It is not the
job of one movie to address every single intersection of identity,
and this movie is doing a ton while being what
movies rarely are, which is very funny and like all
the performances are so like every character gets a great
comedic moment, and yeah, it's a good movie.

Speaker 2 (01:35:24):
It was.

Speaker 1 (01:35:25):
It was fun to revisit for this and I hope
that people keep talking about it so Core Jefferson can
make more movies. Indeed, so I'm going to give it
three point seven five and I'm giving I'm giving them
all to doctor Lisa Ellison, my favorite character.

Speaker 3 (01:35:39):
Oh rip, I would give it four nipples as well.
There's parts of it, even watching it a second time
where I was just like, there's some some pacing issues
sometimes where it slows down and I kind of like
begin to say, where are we going? Can we speed
this up? Can we bring this more tightly together? It's
about a two hour movie. I don't know if it
needed all two of those hours. It's an hour and

(01:36:01):
fifty six.

Speaker 4 (01:36:02):
I was like, you probably gonna cut that down somewhere
a few of these scenes that.

Speaker 2 (01:36:07):
Which is many such movies.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:36:09):
Yeah, And I'm just a guy that like when I
think about timing, I always think about Diehard, where it's
a Swiss watch. Everything that starts is something that ends,
and everything that if you start a beat, you ended here.

Speaker 4 (01:36:19):
All of that. I want that. But that being said,
great movie for nipples. I would evenly distribute the nipples
amongst everyone black in this film.

Speaker 3 (01:36:31):
As Lisa Ray says, I'm rotty for everyone black. And
I think everyone that showed up clocked in and did
their jobs. And I think there was not one person
that I was not happy to see on screen, even
down to Maynard and Lorraine, where I'm just happy to
see them, happy to see them find each other, even
when he's wearing his uniform at the wedding. Like it

(01:36:53):
was just very very cute and adorable, and I just
everyone did a great job. They really clocked in, came
to work, And it's an argument for we should be
saying more Erica Alexander, more Tracy Ellis ross uh and
the fact that we're not more Issa Ray even in
acting in roles like this, Three women who still have
so much to give us, give them more opportunities to

(01:37:15):
give us more of this. I will never have to
say that about Jeffrey Wright or still in Kay Brown.
Those men have been working and will continue to work
for for years to come. But these are three women
that I would love to see more of in mainstream
hits like this.

Speaker 1 (01:37:30):
Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:37:31):
Also, he was he was a sheriff.

Speaker 1 (01:37:35):
Yeah, yeah, he's kind of worse than a cop.

Speaker 2 (01:37:37):
He was a sheriff.

Speaker 1 (01:37:40):
Dang.

Speaker 3 (01:37:41):
Granted it was a black community and he's a black sheriff,
so it might be a different interaction. He also seemed
way more folks see around them, but still we don't
talk to the cops. Sorry, I don't talk to the cops.

Speaker 1 (01:37:56):
I was like, Lorraine, you can do better, but yeah, yeah,
we gotta get laps.

Speaker 2 (01:38:02):
Anyways, Yes, Ronald, thank you so much for joining us again.
Come back anytime.

Speaker 1 (01:38:08):
What was your suggestion for a third Oh, Donnie Darko, Yeah,
let's do it. Let's create the most unhinged trifecta of
movies that has ever been covered on the.

Speaker 4 (01:38:17):
Show Deep Dive on Donnie Darko. Yes, thank you so
much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:38:21):
Oh, thanks for coming back. Where can we find you?
And you've got an upcoming show?

Speaker 3 (01:38:25):
Yes, you could find me on Instagram, threads, letterbox at
Oh It's Big Round. That's at h I T S
B I G R O N. If you're in the Washington,
DC area, you should come to my live show on
February twenty first at the Barracle Theater. It's called Heartbreaker.
I will be talking about my love life through the

(01:38:45):
lens of growing up as a child in the church,
seeing the love of my parents, having an expectation of
love as an adult, and continuously failing in relationship after
relationship after relationship. I'll be talking about my last three
relationships in particular, and I'm very excited to share those
stories on stage live at the Miracle Theater February twenty
first here in Washington, DC. Please come if you can,

(01:39:08):
Damn bring it to LA.

Speaker 1 (01:39:09):
That sounds so good, Hey.

Speaker 4 (01:39:11):
If it's good in DC and someone will give me somebody,
then yes, well, thank you so.

Speaker 1 (01:39:18):
Much for joining us again. Come back soon. We'll start
brushing up on Donnie Darko.

Speaker 4 (01:39:24):
Awesome if we will.

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
And in the meantime, you can follow us on Instagram
at Bechdel Cast, and you can subscribe to our Maytreon
at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, where you get
two bonus episodes a month, always on a just genius
theme that is awesome and so good.

Speaker 1 (01:39:46):
Where else are you gonna get episodes on Titanic six
sixty six? Fucking nowhere? And I'm like, maybe it sounded
like a negative when but I met that as a positive.

Speaker 2 (01:39:55):
Yeah, no, it's it's actually an important part of filmed.
Course is our episode on Titanic six sixty six.

Speaker 1 (01:40:03):
So we'll see you. We'll see you over there. And
in the meantime, let's go tell Adam Brody how this
episode's gonna end, so he can disagree with us in
three different pitches.

Speaker 2 (01:40:16):
Yeah, okay, bye bye.

Speaker 1 (01:40:22):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and
produced by me Jamie Loftus and.

Speaker 2 (01:40:28):
Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

Speaker 1 (01:40:32):
And edited by Caitlyn Dorante. Ever heard of them? That's
Me and our logo and merch and all of our artwork,
in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her?
Oh My God? And our theme song, by the way,
was composed by Mike Kaplan.

Speaker 2 (01:40:48):
With vocals by Catherine Vosskrasinski.

Speaker 1 (01:40:51):
Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only
Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 2 (01:40:56):
For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}American Fiction Ronald Young, Jr.