Appropriate Behavior with Melody Kamali

This week, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Melody Kamali discuss Appropriate Behavior (2014). and at the end of the episode, they're going to be okay!

Follow Melody on Instagram at @melodykamali

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism?

Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's the patriarchy, Zephyn. Best start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Jamie, I'm breaking up with you and giving you back
the dildo you gave me.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Okay, I don't care, or do I? Or do I?
I think you do? Well, wait till you see me
hanging out with Chekhov's co worker, battle show the hair model. Yes,
Chekhov's hair model famously Welcome, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast,

(00:44):
perfect intro, no.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
Notes, Yes, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
My name is Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
My name is Caitlin Derante. This is the Bechdel Cast,
our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens,
using the Bechdel Test as a jump off point. And
it's actually the origins of which are particularly relevant to
today's movie. Today's movie is Appropriate Behavior twenty fourteen, written

(01:13):
and directed by Desiree Acavon. But Jamie tell us what
the Bechdel test is.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, I guess we should do a full definition today
because it is very relevant. The Bechel test is a
media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, friend of
the show Our Best Friend, I Wonder if she remembers us.
The test is originally not intended to be a famous
media metric. It was written as a one off joke

(01:40):
in Alison Bechdel's iconic comics collection dis To Watch Out
For in the nineteen eighties. The specific context of the
original joke was that two women never spoke to each
other in a movie, and the context of it was
because Alison Bechdel and her friends wanted to see queer
romance between women and non binary people in movies and

(02:02):
there wasn't any that's very relevant to what we're talking
about today. Eventually, on a longer timeline, it was sort
of transformed into a more generic media metric. The version
of the test we use requires that two characters of
marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something
other than a man for more than two meaningful lines

(02:25):
of dialogue. And we're not going to have an issue
with that today, don't you worry. I think that the
backtales actually will not be coming up very much from
here on out, but it is interacting with the origin
in a kind of fun way, right, because the idea.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Was that the characters indus to watch out for would
if they saw two women speaking to each other in
a movie about something other than a man. The characters
could sort of like ship those two women together a
tigh in their imaginations.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
The time where it's like women spoke to each other,
they have to be in love, like if. We also
shout out to the co creator because it often called
the Bechdel Wallace Test. Liz Wallace co created the test
with Alison Bechdel, and we learned on during our interview
with Alison Bechdel that they met at a karate claus
and didn't keep in touch. So I'm curious if Liz

(03:20):
Wallace is even aware of this legacy.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
We should try to reach out to her.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, we had to start going to karate classes. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
I hear.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
That's a great way to meet her. Indeed, so we're
talking about appropriate behavior and we have a wonderful returning
guest with us today. She is a podcast producer, comedian
and you remember her from our episode on Blue Crush. Yeah,
it's Melody Kmalie.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
What's up, Salem? Aloha?

Speaker 3 (03:49):
D rude.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Thanks for having me back. That's Farsie too.

Speaker 4 (03:55):
Yeah, I think I last time I was here, you
had just come off your recording with Alison Bechdel. Yeah,
that's right, and you guys were riding high from that.
I think she remembers you, and if anything, maybe just
for like the Google alerts, the crossover in.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, she has Google alerts on. She probably hates to
see us coming. Well, welcome back.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
Thank you for having me really pick the most relevant
film possible as a bisexual Iranian American.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
I'm really excited to dive in.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, tell us about your relationship with this.

Speaker 4 (04:33):
This too much of a relationship with this movie I did.
I used to host a co host a podcast called
Diking Out. We had desiree achumon on the podcast and
it was like the peak of Quarantine and it was
like just as like a lot of protests were breaking out.
It was just like a very tense, weird time with

(04:55):
the pandemic. And we asked her because we were fans
of her, and she kind of was like, why do
you like, I'm not promoting anything right now this Like
I'm not in the middle of any project. I'm kind
of sitting in my apartment just like everyone else. I'm like, perf,
let's get intimate, and we tried to make it comfortable
with her, and we all just ended up drinking in

(05:16):
our little quarantines together. On the podcast, I am horrified
thinking about it. I haven't listened back to it ever.
It's out there, but we do bond over just all
the parallels we had, because not only are we bisexually
running Americans with immigrant parents, but we also, like in

(05:37):
her show The Bisexual, I think thought we were lesbian
first and then got like hetero curious and explored that.
So just so many and more parallels come up in
that conversation. It's like a weird version of myself, like
a successful version of myself.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
I've been watching from a foreign admiring. I love her work.

Speaker 4 (05:58):
She directs a lot of like awesome film and TV episodes,
a lot of Hacks episodes.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
You'll see her name Papa. But I just thinks she's
so cool. Yeah, and yeah, that's the relationship.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
Nice. So did you see this movie when it first
came out? Oh?

Speaker 4 (06:15):
Sorry, yeah, I remember at the time everyone was talking
about this, like Persian Lena Dunham was what I was
seeing online.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Oh Ver twenty fourteen.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yes, exactly, like.

Speaker 4 (06:28):
This had just come out like some film festival. It
won Best Screenplay Word at some festival. Is very interested
in it because there's representation now and it's so easy
to connect and I was able to just interview her
as a big fan of it. But back then it
was like there was so much still like shrouded in mystery,
like are there other voices like mine out there? And

(06:49):
I was just so excited to find out she existed
and bought it on iTunes or something and watched.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
It on my little MacBook. I loved it.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
I loved Lena Dunham at the time, and I think
I was just obsessively like searching for stuff on her
around Postgirls era.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
And then I think that this movie also got desiree
akavan apart on Girls, because I guess, yeah, yeah, she
had like a small arc.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
Yeah, she was one of the writers that it was
like her corporate job or something I remember in Girls.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
I had to go back and like rewatch a few
scenes on YouTube, but I was like, yes, that is her.
And I think it's because Lena Dunham saw this movie
and was like, oh, we have the same vibe.

Speaker 4 (07:37):
Definitely, Yeah, how do we what do we call that vibe?

Speaker 2 (07:41):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
It feels very I'm excited to dig into it because
it feels very like specifically, this was a I don't know,
I feel like the simplest is like difficult protagonist or
like women actually not being perfect on screen and acting
messy in a way that like, I don't know, if
I put my twenty fourteen brain in, people like could

(08:03):
not tolerate it, Like it was interesting looking back at
like some of the reviews of this movie, and also
because it felt so in conversation with girls and Lena
Dunnam's new book came out, so everyone is sort of
talking about it. It's just like the way that these
these characters are very prevalent and also received in a
weird way. I don't know, it was interesting to like

(08:25):
go back there.

Speaker 4 (08:26):
Yeah, I kept trying to put myself in the mindset
because at the time it was like whoa pioneer alert, Like, yeah,
they are unlikable, They're fucking up big time.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
Well, I think part of it is that there were
like horny, sexually liberated women and people don't like that,
and they like use humor to deflect, and people don't
like it when women are funny.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
I was also thinking because it's like, at the end
of the day, even though like sharing is a mess,
like you do love her, but there I think that
people also have like a real issue with watching a
character who is a woman act kind of selfishly. I
think that people still, like to this day, really struggle

(09:13):
with a woman not acting in some like self sacrificing way.
And yeah, in a way that I mean, yeah, I
don't know. It's like, if we're going into the whole
like girls thing, why do people hate characters like Sharien
and Hand of Horror Bath but they love Don Draper.
That whole sort of line of discussion of like men

(09:35):
acting selfishly is iconic and amazing and women acting selfishly
like inspires at the time a million like cruel takedowns
in essay form, because that was what twenty fourteen was about.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
I just remember self absorbed, self absorbed, like everywhere.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
That term, and it was like or in an agency.

Speaker 4 (09:56):
I don't know, Yeah, that's so funny. I'm rewatching mad
Men right now. Oh yeah, that is the perfect comparison.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
I mean, this show absolutely rocks, but you're just like,
uh yeah, yeah, we didn't. To this day, some would
say we have not gotten the chance to be selfish assholes.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
It's almost like there are double standards for men women.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Now explore that.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
Wait, we should talk about that on the show. Wait okay, yeah,
for the first time. Finally, after all these years, Jamie,
what is your relationship slash history with this movie?

Speaker 1 (10:33):
I had not seen this movie, but I do consider myself,
I'm just gonna try this. A Desiree aka Van Desiree
aka fan.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
Whoa, let's try.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
To create a community name. But I mean, I think
she's so cool. Yeah, I've been wanting to see this
for a long time. I saw her I think second movie,
The Miseducation of Cameron Post, which is about Chloe Grace
Morett's getting sent to a gay conversion camp that I
thought was really good. And I'd seen her show The Bisexual,

(11:07):
But for some reason, I just hadn't seen this and
her I don't know. I admire her a lot. I
want to, first of all, Melody, I want to find
that podcast episode. I want to hear more interviews with her,
because it's so cool that she has been able to
create such a cool career for herself, and I just
think it's really cool and this movie in particular, I

(11:30):
was pleasantly surprised by so much about it and also
that it was like kind of challenging me to turn
on this character, and I was like, I will not.
I will not turn on my good friend read even
if she well, we'll talk about when she gets up
to But I just loved this queer woman being messy.

(11:51):
It's great, It's perfect. So yeah, it was. It was
a really fun first watch. Yeah, Caitlyn, what about you?

Speaker 3 (11:58):
I had not seen this movie before, nor did I
know about it. I didn't know about it until Melody.
You and I were talking about potential movies for you
to come on and cover, and you sent me I
don't remember if you sent me a trailer for this
or if you just mentioned it. But then I watched
the trailer and I was like, oh my gosh, this

(12:20):
seems like so much fun. I would love to I
was like, even if we don't cover this movie, I'll
just watch it anyway because it seems like such a
fun movie.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
It doesn't seem like people given like how I don't know,
people should be talking about this movie more.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
Yeah, right, I think it's not very well known, and I.

Speaker 4 (12:41):
Was surprised that you weren't aware of it when I
emailed you the title, like I assumed you were.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
And then more people I talk about it too haven't
seen it.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, the goodness. If you're a listener and have not
yet seen the movie, it is very easy to stream.
It is streaming for free in many places, so if
you haven't it, get your shit together.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
It's accessible. So yeah, watched it for the first time
to prep for this. I really enjoyed it. I also
love that it's only an hour and twenty one minutes long.
Please more movies like this. But yeah, I thought it
was fun. I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah, soll

(13:25):
we take a quick break and then we'll get into
the recap. Let's do it, okay. Here is the story
of Appropriate Behavior. We meet Sharene, played by Desiree Akovan,

(13:47):
who is also the writer and director of the film.
We meet her as she's packing up some of her
things after a breakup from her now ex girlfriend Maxine
played by Rebecca Henderson, including a strap on that Scharene
had gifted her when they were still together, but Maxine

(14:08):
makes Scharene take it back that makes it seem like
it's gonna be a huge plot point. It's not.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
It's just sort of Dilda for the sake of dildo.
Yeah yeah, yah, yeah yeah yeah, And that's beautiful.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
There is a scene later on where Scharene finally because
right after this she throws it away, but then immediately
takes it back out of the trash, and then later
on she throws it away for good, perhaps signaling that
she's she's moving on from the breakup. But I'm getting
ahead of myself. So then Scharene meets up with her

(14:42):
friend Crystal to start trying to process the breakup because
Scharene really wants to get back together with Maxine, though
there is mention of their sex life sputtering out pretty quickly,
like soon after they got together. And then we flash
back to Charene and Maxine trying to do some sexy

(15:05):
role playing, but Maxine isn't really into it. She says
she's too vanilla. We'll get a bunch of flashbacks about
their relationship over the course of this movie. Yes, back
to the present, Sharene visits her family. We meet her
mom and dad and urologist brother Ali played.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
Mister Hattie himself.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yes, yes, Oh my god, played by Arian Moyed, who
I recognize from Succession is the main thing I know
him from.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yes, love him.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Oh he's such a little bitch in Succession. I guess
he is also such a little bitch in this movie. Yeah,
he's really good at that, I guess.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
Yeah. We also meet his girlfriend Ley, and Scharene and
her brother Ali have a pretty contentious relationship. They're always
making jabs at each other and judging each other for
their life choices, and Scharene's also judging Lei Lee. Yeah,
she makes a few jabs at their jobs. They're both doctors,
but she's just like, you're losers, and then Allie retorts

(16:11):
by saying that Sharene is wasting her master's degree in journalism.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
I loved this sibling specific of like masking disdain for
your sibling with concern and being like, I'm really worried
about her. She's such a fucking loser and it's great.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
Yeah. The subtext is she's making me look bad by
being related to.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Me, and also at the same time, like it feels
like they're both kind of asking, like tacitly asking their
parents to be like.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
Please say I'm your favorite.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
I'm the good kid, right, I'm the.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
Kid's very Persian, very sibling universal dynamic. But it's something
so Persian about the masked concern and being like, I
am the one that you trust, I am the golden child.
But crazy of her to do it when she's working
against a doctor as a as an artist a type,

(17:06):
because that is a very real dynamic in Persian families.
I am the artist loser and constantly being compared to siblings, cousins,
et cetera, who went the doctor lawyer Persian route.

Speaker 3 (17:20):
Sure, yeah, because Charene she was a journalist slash writer,
and then she's pivoting. She wants to pivot careers, and
we're about to get to what she kind of pivots
to because she interviews for a job with this guy
named Ken.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Pete Horne Jump scare Yeah, yes it's played by Scott
as did It of thirty Rock fame, for a job
that is teaching an after school filmmaking class to teens
or what Scharene thinks will be teens.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
He offers her the job, so that's her new job. Now. Meanwhile,
Charene is scheming ways to bump into Maxine including trying
to work the same shift as Maxine at the local
food co op.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
She tries, she tries to sleep her way to the
top of the co op, which is a very funny scene.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
I kind of wish that scene went on a little
longer because you don't really get the reaction of the
co op lady. But she's like Sharene's like unbuttoning her
blouse being like, just let me work the shifts I want.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
I was assuming it was the Park Slope food co Op.
There's an episode of Broad City where Abby and Alana
are switching roles because like Abby can't work her shift
at that co op and like she had they train
each other in each other's mannerisms and like switch rolls
for the day so she can work the ship for
her I don't know, anyway, is the way they portray

(18:52):
that same character in Broad City. It was like a
very similar portrayal of this like no nonsense, like kind
of butch like what do you want from me manager
of the Park Slope co Op? And I'm like, what
is going on there? I want to a nice trope.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
I do like something seemingly innocuous being run like the
Navy that will usually work for me as a trope.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
Okay, So then Scharene's parents and brother help her move
into a new apartment in Brooklyn, and it's starting to
become clear that perhaps they do not know about Sharen's
relationship with Maxine, or perhaps even that Charene likes women.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
And I was kind of taken off guard that her
brother also didn't seem to know, because every I mean,
it's like everyone, it's like, where's your boyfriend, where's your boyfriend?
Where's your boyfriend. It's like, oh, her brother also doesn't know,
so they're not close.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
It doesn't seem like it.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Ye.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
We cut to Scharene at her new teaching job, and
again she thought she would be teaching teenagers, but it
turns out to be like five year olds and they're
all boys, and they're all very unruly and chaotic, and
she's in way over her head and she's trying to
teach them filmmaking and like frame rates and stuff like that,

(20:15):
and they're just like causing havoc. They're just like poop, poop, yeah, poop.
Then we flash back to Sharin and Maxine meeting for
the first time at a New Year's Eve party. They
bond over both being haters and just hating a lot
of things, and then they start making out within minutes

(20:37):
of meeting. Sometime later, Sharene invites Maxine to a Persian
New Year party, and it is confirmed here that Sharen's
family does not know that she's bisexual. She mentions that
gay people are stoned to death in Iran, where her
entire family comes from, so she is reluctant to come

(20:58):
out to her family.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
I'm backtrack really quick too. I think that the scene
where Scharene first meets Maxine, their meet cute is so
well written because you can tell you're like, oh, I
can see why this is appealing, and this relationship is
so clearly doomed from a moment, right. I've never seen

(21:20):
that dynamic written quite so like real in a way
that you're like, oh, these two are bad for each other.
They're like, wow, your toxic and negative too. You're like, no,
God's no, it's.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
Never gonna work out.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
That was well done.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah. But they get together nonetheless, and Maxine goes with
Scharene to this Persian New Your's party and meets her family,
but Maxine has to pretend to just be Scharene's platonic
friend and not her girlfriend. Back in the present, Scharene

(21:55):
is on okay Cupid looking for a post breakup distraction
slash rebound. She meets a man, and this man cracked
me up because he's like, I'm a stand up comedian
slash folk musician. He's like, comedy shouldn't be mean, it
should be nice. She's like ray, which I agree with,

(22:20):
but he was so goofy I agree with.

Speaker 4 (22:22):
Like now, but in twenty fourteen, it was like stand
up was having a boom, Like it was just like, yeah, comedy,
I don't know. It's like there was a jadedness that
he was like speaking to that I didn't think was
there at the time in the comedy scene.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
Well, I was wondering. I was like, when was the
height of like roast shows because I wonder if it
was like round then they were.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Encroaching on that time mid.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, well, because it's like also twenty fourteen would have
been like peek Louis c k oh, jeez as woll
true not to sorry to invoke Yeah, normally safe space,
but that was who because I was also like, yeah,
where was comedy at You're like, it's kind of a
weird weird place. Yeah, you sure was. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah. Anyway, so she goes on this date with this guy.
They hook up, but it's nothing special, especially compared to
the flashback where Charene and Maxine are being super intimate,
they're getting stoned together.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
They're being transphobic together.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
Yeah, we'll talk about we'll get to that.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
That was the thing that kept taking me out of
it where because it keeps happening it.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
Yeah, several times. It's also in this scene when they're
stone together, the Maxine tells a story that's ablest.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
So it's not perfect, but yeah, scene is not perfect, No.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
And it's it's tricky because it's one of those things
where it's like you have to again, like you have
to try to put yourself in your brain ten years ago,
which is a weird amount of time to regress to
and be like, is this meant to be making a
point about how this character is unlikable or is this
just how people felt comfortable talking at the time. And
I think it's the last one.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
I agree.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
Yeah, from today's brain, it's like, well, Maxine needs to
go on a gender journey, like Vaccine has some things to.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Explore internalized issues.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, And then they also talk about
how Maxine hates sex and the city, and then they
talk about Lord of the Rings. So speaking to the
Bechdel Test, they're talking about lots of stuff they're living.
And then after all of this they share that they
are falling in love with each other. We cut to

(24:39):
Charene showing up at a meeting for a queer advocacy
group that Maxine is at because Scharene's like again trying
to bump into Maxine and she is not pleased to
see Charene. So Scharene tries to make Maxine jealous by
asking the leader of the group, this woman named Sasha,

(25:01):
out for a drink.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
This scene, I'm excited to talk about it is there's
so much going on in this scene.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
Oh the man in the background.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
There's a very serious issue being discussed, this rape, which
is like but like that's that's a real thing, And like,
I just thought that scene was so fascinating because she's
just being he's being an absolute menace. Meanwhile, there's like
a very i would imagine at the time and still
underdiscussed issue around how queer people are demonized by the law,

(25:33):
and you're just like there's so much happening here, right,
It was wild, wild, and I feel like his story
is there to play as a joke within the scene.
I don't know, or at least that's how I kind
of felt about it.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
But I don't know.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
I don't know, i'd be curious. I don't know. I
think I ended up kind of giving this scene the
benefit of the doubt, and it's just like an incredibly
it felt messy in a way that was intentional to me,
but I guess, if pressed, I couldn't tell you exactly
what the intent was, So I don't know.

Speaker 4 (26:06):
I thought it was to like bring out just how
much of a menace and like selfish person she was being.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
To because she's like blowing past yes man, telling this
story really traumatic.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yeah, that was This was the scene where I was like,
oh that, Like I did appreciate how hard in some sequences,
desra Acaman seems to want to challenge you to turn
on Charene because this scene, I think is as close
as I got to being like fucking egg grow up girl.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah yes, Because so she asks Sasha out for a drink.
Sasha agrees because she's put on the spot, but their
little date is quite awkward, and Sasha politely declines when
Scharene invites her back to Sharene's place. Meanwhile, Scharene is

(26:59):
strong ruggling at work trying to teach these rambunctious five
year old boys how to make a movie, and she
meets her colleague, this woman named Tibet, who is teaching
the advanced filmmaking class. All the students there are girls,
and they are way better behaved and more artistically inclined

(27:21):
than all of Sharene's students. We flash back to Charene's
parents visiting her and Maxine at their shared one bedroom
apartment and her dad, Sharine's dad, is like, why is
there only one bed if the two of you live here?

(27:42):
And Sharen is like, it's European and trendy and also
it saves us a lot of money and their parents
maybe believe it. I'm not sure, but Maxine is not
happy about this. Charene not being out to her parents
and them not knowing about her relationship with Maxine is

(28:03):
really weighing on Maxine.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Back in the present, Sharene meets a couple at a
bar who are looking for a third and so Sharene
goes home with them. And they start having a threesome,
but Sharene gets in her head and the mood kind
of dies, and Sharene leaves well.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
And also the guy this motherfucker. Yeah, I hated him.
The guy has an aura of menace and sinister, yes,
very sinister. One of the many interesting little episodic moments,
because these characters do not return, and you're just like, wonder,
hope she's okay. Hope she's okay with her menacing husband

(28:50):
wherever she is.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Yeah, right, yeah, I hope she's able to. I forget
their names. Marie I think is her name, Yeah, the
woman in that couple. Yeah, hopefully Marie escapes. Yeah. But
then we flash back to Charene and Maxine going to
a party. I think it's like a Pride party.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Wearing some of the most twenty twelve twenty thirteen yes fits. Anyways,
I was like PTSD by the long tanks. You're like,
oh my god, no, I won't go back.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
So at this party, there's like one straight guy who
lost a bet to his sister or something like that,
and there's another bout of anti transness here. But Maxine
meets this guy and she's drunk and they start making
out and Sharene walks in and sees them, so she
gets very upset and Maxine begs for forgiveness, but it's

(29:48):
it's all very messy.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah, using I think a very diabolical tactic, which is
the phrase you have to forgive me.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
Oh yeah, now no, you don't have to forgive anyone. No. Yeah.
Cut back to the present, Charene and her friend Crystal
go shopping for underwear. Because Charene barely has any sense,
Maxine cut up most of hers, and then we flash
back to the scene where Charene and Maxine break up,

(30:18):
followed by Maxine cutting up all of Charene's underwear. Then
we it seems like we kind of flash forward in
time because now Charene is dating a man named John Francis.
Maxine is dating a new person as well, and it
seems like they've kind of agreed to meet up with

(30:40):
each other and meet each other's partners and try to
be friends. So they meet up at a dance club.
It turns out that Maxine's new girlfriend is Tibet, Sharene's
teacher colleague who we've met before Nor and Charene and
Maxine start arguing and insulting each other and each other's partners,

(31:04):
and then Charene storms off, but then she and Maxine
have a tender moment in the bathroom. Then there is
a screening of the short films that Charene in Tibet's
students have made. Charene is humiliated by the film that
her students have made because it's all about farts.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
I thought, I thought it was beautiful.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
And it was the non advanced class.

Speaker 4 (31:32):
They screened the advance to the girls and then it's like, oh,
come on, yeah, beginner, I loved it.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
It's so cute.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Anyways, and then Charene I don't know if she's worried
about getting fired or what, but her boss Ken is like, no,
farts are funny, and Scharene is like, yeah, farts are funny.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
So that's kind of the moral of the movie. Just kidding.
It's kind of a random thing.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
Yeah, that's the thematic undercurrent. Also, I was thinking, I
was like, how is Charene able to afford New York
City rent when her job is a part time after
school film teacher.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Right, yeah, movie Magic Baby, the Rich Parents.

Speaker 4 (32:21):
There is a line where I forget what she says
to her mom about needing to move into a new
apartment and not saying why it was lesbian breakup, but
she was like, we could have helped you. I think, yeah, yeah, yeah,
my god, I assumed it was a bankrolled Brooklyn.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
Life probably yes, Okay. So then we cut to a
party with Sharene's family. I think it's maybe another Persian
New Year's party, yes, and Charene comes out as by
to her brother. His reaction, we'll talk about it, because

(32:58):
he handles a very poorly and then discourages her from
coming out to their parents. But she's like, no, I
have to start being honest about who I am.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
He's like, could you delay until after my wedding? I'm
like this, motherfucker.

Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah. So later that night, Sharene comes out to her
mom and tells her that she was in love with
Maxine and in a relationship with her, but her mom
completely dismisses it. She's in full denial and she just says, no,
you are not gay, and then she like gets up
and leaves. Despite this, it seems like Scharene's spirits are

(33:40):
higher than usual. She tells her friend Crystal that she
plans to talk to her mom about it again soon.
Then she sees Maxine on the subway platform and they
wave at each other and we get the impression that
no matter what happens, Charene is gonna be okay.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
The end, it was very girl who is going to
be okay? Shot at the end it was do you
know that meme?

Speaker 3 (34:10):
Oh no, I don't.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Oh it is, I'll send it to you. But it's
making fun of sort of these ending shots of girl
in Brooklyn who's looking around nodding, being like, you know what,
Everything's gonna be okay for me, Like, because that is
iconically how a million movies end. I love it.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
I feel like it's similar vibes to the trope of
a teen girl going underwater in a swimming pool and
having a like coming of age moment where she's just like, Wow,
everything's different.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Now. This is the twenty something meter version of that
girl who is going to be okay. Wait, I'm gonna
center to you.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
But let's take a quick break and then we'll come
back to discuss. And we're back Melody. Is there any
place you would like to start Guest's choice?

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (35:14):
I mean, obviously a lot going on with a run
right now and Persian identity, especially in the diaspora, and
I've been thinking about it a lot, rewatching a lot
of different movies, reading books, and I do really appreciate
the use of the Persian New Year and like no

(35:34):
Ruse and then that jumping over the fire that we
see in the beginning when she's struggling and then at
the end when she's feeling empowered to come out to
her family.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
There's so much.

Speaker 4 (35:46):
Going on there in those scenes. For it's called Chaharshambasuri,
she explains in the movie, it's the Wednesday before No
Ruz where there's like a little fire festival. You jump
over fire to like cleanse yourself of what is no
longer serving you in the past year and jump towards

(36:08):
what will like enrich you, strengthen you.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Embolden you, empower you in the upcoming year.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
And they didn't do it in the movie, but when
you jump over the fires, you say something that translates
to like my yellowness to you, your redness to me,
and the yellow and red is like from the fire.
Yellowness represents like sickness and what's not serving like the
bad and redness is the strength to go after the

(36:35):
all the newness and betterness in the new year.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
So you're releasing the yellowness and embracing the redness.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
Yeah, so love that that was included.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
That's a very important like tenant of Persian culture. No
rus specific that it's like a fourteen day holiday, And
there was just so much going on in those scenes
with the Persians.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
It wasn't like a movie about coming out to me.

Speaker 4 (37:02):
It was about like, it's not like I'm going to
tell my Persian parents, it's my whole Persian family knows,
and everyone's avoiding it and pretending it's not there, which
is in Persian culture just such a thing. There's a
lot of just not addressing certain topics out of like
politeness or like she says in the movie, Persians communicate

(37:23):
through gossip. Like things aren't like addressed head on ever
and are just danced around. So I just like felt
a lot of that coming out of those scenes. And yeah,
it was like a movie about like code switching.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Essentially to me. So you really see a lot.

Speaker 4 (37:42):
Of that in those scenes, specifically when she's there with Maxine,
going from her like Brooklyn like western vibe to her
cousins and that insecurity you feel because it's so much
comparison in Persian families, Like it's a lot of competition
at least with those are I didn't really grow up
in that like that there's a more affluent Persian dynamic

(38:07):
that I think Desiree was raised in a different tax bracket,
but it's.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Still there to varying degrees.

Speaker 4 (38:14):
So I'd love the cultural ritual brought in, like all
the themes she was struggling with, like throughout the movie
in the greater like Brooklyn bubble and just like yeah,
never being never fitting in but being like am I
do they not want me? Or do they not want
like do they need a different version of me?

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Right?

Speaker 4 (38:35):
So yeah, I mean obviously so relatable. It's hard to
be like impartial about it. Yep, yep, yep, perfectly nailed it, yep. Yeah,
obviously I'm like, yeah, I love the Persian parts because
right now I'm just like desperate for any positive Persian
representation right now.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
Mm hmm. Yeah, it does not exist very much in
Western film. Yeah, it was. It was great.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
I was curious, I because I thought that the ending, Like,
I mean, there are a lot of things about this
movie that I was like, just like I didn't see
coming because you know, you get used to the beats
of a coming of age movie and this movie subverts
a lot of those And at the end, I liked
the kind of nuance presented by the end of the

(39:26):
movie where it's so devastating to watch, you know, Sharene
come out to her mom and have her mom just unable,
like unwilling, well unwilling to receive that information, and I
was like, how is she going to process this? And
that seed at the end where she's like, I'm gonna

(39:47):
try again in another month or so, or like presenting
this as something that is like inherently unfair to her,
but something that I know plenty of people who have
had to go through that of like, this is going
to be a process because I want a relationship with
my family, and like that kind of exact shade of

(40:09):
gray I don't think I'd ever seen in a movie
before and not having it presented as like a failure
but just like, you know, something unfair to Scharene because
she has to deal with all of the internalized and
externalized homophobia that her family and the world has. But
also she's she loves her family and she wants them
in her life and she wants to keep trying.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, right, because we get the sense that Maxine perhaps
even one of the reasons they break up is because
Sharene has not yet come out to her family, And
then we learn that Maxine seems like when she came
out to her family, she was completely ostracized, and so
you would think maybe that Maxine would be a little

(40:53):
bit more understanding then of like not wanting to come
out to your family for fear of being disowned.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
But I also felt like with Maxine, and this is
like again just gets it a lot of how like
realistically messy and frustrating these characters can be. It almost
felt like Maxine was doing the old school thing of like, well,
I suffered, so you have to suffer, Yeah, in the
way that like, I don't know, I feel like generationally

(41:22):
that happens a lot of like, well, I was in
crippling debt, so therefore I want you to be in
crippling debt. And you're like, well, that wouldn't you want
better for someone that you love? But I do feel
like Maxine has a lot of you know, like stuff
that she has yet to work through, and I think
like had a hard time dealing with Charene, I mean

(41:44):
understandably having a difficult time with having to pretend she
Sharine's roommate. I know how painful that was event, especially
where she's like, I'm too old for this shit is
sort of the vibe I was getting. But yeah, that
like she wasn't able to show Scharene the like empathy
she deserved because she was still so wounded from what
it happened to her.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
Yeah, and also, I mean again that was perhaps part
of why they broke up, but also part of why
they broke up is just that they weren't very compatible.
Not all, Oh, there's no fixing.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
That, Jamie.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
You said there was a scene that you're like, oh,
I can't wait to get into that, and I was
trying to remember, oh what it was.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
That was the scene where Charene is stalking Maxine at
the queer women meetup group. Oh yes, yeah, So I mean,
if we want to go to that scene, that scene,
I feel like, really boils down a lot of what
makes us movies so specific is that Charene is being
an absolute menace to society in this. So she's, first

(42:48):
of all, you know, it's it's stalking when women do
it too, she is stalking Maxine and being a weird creep.
Maxine is upset, is like, get the hell out of here.
And then Charen ends up, you know, trying to whatever
dominate the situation by asking out the leader of the

(43:09):
group to humiliate Maxine, which ends up humiliating Scharen on
a longer timeline, which is very this movie. But in
the background of that scene, there is a character, a
gay man, talking about how and it's very specific the
way he's talking about it too, that he has been

(43:31):
labeled by law as a sex offender for decades because
of a relationship that he had with a boy who
was two years younger than him when he was I
think it was like eighteen sixteen was the dynamic presented,
and that the result of that is that he's been
labeled as a sex offender for his entire adult life,

(43:54):
which is genuinely something that happened and happens and specifically
targets queer communities in order to make it. I mean,
think of all of the ways in which your life
is affected if you have to identify as a sex offender.
It's harder to get a job, it's harder to get
how housing is hard like it's it makes life impossible

(44:17):
in all of these ways that if you are a
sex offender, you know that there that's a very complicated discussion,
but clearly like this character was targeted for being queer
by the law and it has like ruined his life,
and for some reason he wants to talk about it

(44:38):
in a women's group, which is like, oh yeah, also
because that's part of why he's like there, because he's
talking about something he's very upset with, and I think,
what's happening in the background. I watched this scene like
four times because I was like, what's happening? I think
that the woman leading the group is like totally valid
this is a women's group, and he's like, well wait
a second, Like it seems like he just really wants

(45:00):
to be.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Heard, but he's pleading.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Yeah. It's such a like really intense scene to be
happening in the background of like kind of rom com
hijinks in the foreground. It's rild.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
That's why I was like, what is the intention here?
I could not get a handle on it. I thought
it was just a like not gender specific, just a
like a more general queer advocacy group, but that there's
a different woman there who's like, I thought we were
going to be talking about women's issues, so I also
didn't know.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Maybe I misunderstood I guess my interpre I thought that
that line indicated that it was a women's group and
that they're like, your issue is valid, but that's like
not really what we're here to talk about. I don't know.
I just thought that scene was like fascinating. I don't
really understand why it's there, but I think it was

(45:52):
really interesting that it was.

Speaker 4 (45:55):
Yeah, when it starts, I'm like, oh, is this going
to be about like identity performance?

Speaker 1 (46:00):
And right?

Speaker 4 (46:01):
I assumed, Like I remember, like my first time seeing it,
I think I went into it being like, oh, this
is going to be about how she's not queer enough
for the gay group and not like or too queer
for her family and like those differences. But watching it
around this time, I no longer know.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
I don't but I love it.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
I don't know what to make of it. Okay, and
sorry to invoke another horrible thing, but there's this kind
of a similar scene in the forty year Old Virgin Okay, where.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
I love that you apologize for bringing up the forty
year old.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
It is it's it's traumatic. There's a scene where Steve
Carrell's character takes Catherine Keener's daughter to a group for
I think like teens and their parents who want to
talk about like sex and birth control, and it's something
like that, and the folk is the two of them,

(47:01):
Steve Carell and the daughter, but then there's like other
people in the background. And maybe I'm just kind of
conditioned to think that the other people in a scene
like this in a comedy movie, whatever they're saying is
is gonna be comedy or it's gonna be played as
a joke because the other characters in that scene are
talking about whatever, whatever's happening. I don't remember the specifics,

(47:23):
but it's like it's all it's pretty much played as
a joke. So that's why I was like, well, is
this scene inappropriate behavior also intended to be a joke
because the juxtaposition between the two things that are happening,
like the disparity and the tone.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Is so severe.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yeah, I'm just like, what is going on? Yeah, I
don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
It's like and it kind of like it feels very
kind of in conversation with girls in that way to
me where like I feel like it's just it is
like such a weird dissonance. I don't know why it's there.
It's kind of interesting that it is. I don't know.
I guess like I didn't view that, and I maybe

(48:11):
I'm I don't know why I feel this way. I
didn't view that seemed to be antagonistic towards the man pleading,
but I just felt like tonally it was weird. There
were other moments where the movie did feel antagonistic in
a way that cross lines for me, which mainly, as
we have already alluded to, is the like casual transphobia

(48:33):
that comes up a weird amount of times that I'm
you know, I want to believe if you know, if
she was making this movie now, would not be there.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
But I don't think so.

Speaker 4 (48:45):
Yeah, it was an Obama era, like this girl doesn't
care about being politically correct. Yeah, I like that kind
of vibe.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
I'm trying to figure out what to compare it to.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
I keep going to the ironic racism in thirty Rock,
but I don't I.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
Mean, I think that that's a good comp And then
I'm also thinking, like if this is like the Louis C.
K peak era, like it kind of feels in step
with that of like I'm not afraid to say it,
like when it's like, well maybe you should be a
fruit hate speech.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Wrong. Yeah, I mean I feel like this was also
a time in history, and thankfully it's not quite like
this anymore, but where even within the queer community, CIS
queer people, they just had antagonism toward trans people ka
And so I don't know if it's if we're seeing

(49:43):
kind of traces of that here, but yeah, yeah, I
don't even know if we want to go into the
specifics of what happens, because I clocked three different instances
of anti trans sentiments.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
I'm like, I don't even really want to repeat it
because it's like, it's not plot rele anything that's said.
It's just like casual turfiness, usually from Maxine, which made
melody that made me, Yeah, I was like, what is
this hyperfixation, Maxine? What's going on? I don't know, but yeah,

(50:16):
Maxine confirmed turf right.

Speaker 3 (50:19):
But also perhaps closeted non binary person question Mark. We
we don't know we should ask her.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
Except yeah, wa DMA, we didn't touch on this when
we talked to her.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
You're drunk.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
I mean, I feel like we're getting the things that
are maybe not so great about the movie out of
the way first, because there's a lot I do really
like about this movie. I think there's a lot it's
doing well and the interesting ways that it handles different things.
I mean, I love a movie about a woman. It's

(50:58):
not necessarily that she's exploring her queer sexuality or in
the sense that she's not. She's like, am I queer?
Like I have to figure this out? She's already figured
it out for the most part, it seems, so now
it's more about like figuring out what specifically she's into,
because it seems like there's like kink things that she

(51:21):
likes that she's trying to explore. You know, she has
this threesome for the first time, she has sex with
that stand up comedian slash folk artist, where she's like,
that is.

Speaker 5 (51:32):
Kay, oh yeah, okay, that is okay okay, but humiliation no,
but she tells him to be rough with her, so yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
And then she's also grappling with how when if do
I come out to my parents? And as we were
talking about already a little bit, she describes it as
a process and she's she says to like vaccine. She's
just like, it's a process and I'm working on it.
And Maxine doesn't like the timeline that Sharene is on

(52:06):
and it culminates in the end of their relationship. But yeah,
I just I like the different ways in which she's
It also seems like she's trying to figure out because
at least in the context of this and like the
scope of this story, she seems to be gravitating more
toward women than men, where like that threesome, for example,

(52:29):
she's really into the woman and the guy. She's like,
get away from the scenes where she's like trying to
lightly kiss him, and you can just tell that she
like she's like, oh, yeah, does this guy have to
be here?

Speaker 1 (52:41):
And her flamer. His vibes are rancid.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
They really are scary.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
Yeah, but yeah, I just I love to see a
sexually liberated, horny woman having a bunch of sex.

Speaker 4 (52:55):
Yeah, especially one from the Islamic Republic of e Run.
I thought that was interesting, just her like hammering home
the environment her parents are from. But then at the
same time, I was curious because, like a lot of
at least my parents are pretty progressive that's why they
left Iran. And a lot of Iranians are Muslim for sure,

(53:19):
but like reject Islamic law and this like kind of
theocratic fascism.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
So yeah, yeah, I found that interesting.

Speaker 4 (53:30):
Yeah, I just felt like with her family and with
the queer community with it was just like here I am,
I'm too much and not enough at the same time,
like I don't like, I'm trying to find where I
am on this like spectrum of being in both communities.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
Yeah. Well, and also like with regards to like by representation,
which is like such a huge theme in Desira Akovan's work.
Watched The Bisexual. Yes, it's so good. I think it was.
It was only bb see for some reason. I don't
know she gets into that, I.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Will say on the episode, but behind this is on
that interesting.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Okay, Yeah, well we gotta listen. Yeah, we'll let you
know I've been.

Speaker 3 (54:10):
Yeah, we'll let you know how your podcast episode.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Oh my god, wouldn't that be amazing if someone would
just listen to your podcast for you, so you never
need to hear your own voice.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
That's my dream, the worst.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
But but just like I think nails down in a
way that is still unusual now so certainly would have
been unusual in twenty fourteen. Like I love that Sharene.
She is not confident in all ways, but she is
she knows what her sexuality is. Anne is continuing to
explore it at the beginning of the movie, where I
feel like there's so many by narratives that I mean,

(54:45):
either the worst of them are like gely coded right,
They're like she doesn't know what she wants, and what
she wants is bun afflex cock, like like a world
that like cannot conceive of a confident by sexual or
like I'm trying to think of an example here, but
or like the whole movie is about navigating realizing you're by,

(55:08):
and I just feel like it's rare to have someone
who knows that they're by and is like a mess
in all these other very human ways at the beginning
of the movie and remains that way throughout, and that
there's so many shades of pushback on her identity, specifically
as by inside and outside of the queer community, where
like her brother, even though it's like a brief exchange,

(55:32):
clearly does not understand or like kind of rejects the
label that she's presenting like he doesn't understand what being bias.
He's like, okay, so are you gay or not? Sort
of seemed like the energy he said.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
She says I'm bisexual, and he's like, so that's a thing.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Huh.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
Is this like he didn't even know or he thought
he heard about it and thought it was fake because
that was also that's a widespread sentiment for a very
long time that people who were by.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
Still act that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and that
it also comes from Maxine. I thought was interesting and
telling too, where like when they're breaking up and you know,
to some extent, I'm sure that Maxine is just saying
it would say anything to hurt her in this moment,
but says, oh, it was probably just a phase anyways,
which is like one of the one of the classics.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
One of the classics. Her brother also calls her sexually confused. Yeah,
like it's just it runs the gambit of is a
gambit or gamut?

Speaker 1 (56:29):
I never think gamit.

Speaker 3 (56:32):
I don't know, Okay, we don't know. But anyway, he's
saying a lot of shit that we've all heard yeah before,
But I love that that doesn't discourage her from moving
forward with attempting to come out to her parents or
her mom at least.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
Yeah, none of it like makes her waiver in her identity,
but it is like a source of constant frustration, which
felt a very like real and I don't know, just
in the way that you don't see a lot of
marginalized people with marginalized identities just be like people. I

(57:08):
appreciated that about Sharen in this where it's like, yes,
she well, I mean she is. I guess she is
kind of an iconic, messy bisexual, therefore playing into the
troph for rev. But I didn't care. I didn't care.
I'll say it me either. Another thing I wanted to
talk about was Sharen's relationship with her body, and like

(57:34):
Desiree akavon writing and performing nudity in the movie, I
appreciate that that's happening on her terms as the writer, director,
and actor in these scenes. I appreciate the representation of
a slightly different body type than we typically see when
we see a naked woman during a sex scene in

(57:57):
a movie, because they usually look like victorious secret models. Obviously,
Desiree Acovan is incredibly attractive, but you know she has
small boobs. Her character is self conscious of them. There's
that scene in the lingerie shop where she's like, I
always thought I didn't really deserve to wear a bra

(58:18):
because my boobs are smalls, like. So that was another
thing where I was like, this scene is so weird
and tonally dissonant, where I'm like, what is going on
in this scene?

Speaker 2 (58:29):
I I was like, oh, so this is about capitalism.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
You just have up on her right manipulating her into
buying a bra.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
I was like, I didn't feel it. I was like,
because as a as a fellow small titty har that
doesn't wear bras, I'm like, they're lying to you, chreamed,
don't fall for you, don't need.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
A bra, do whatever you want. It does seem like
it's the sales lady doing whatever she needs to do
to make the sale. Yeah, yeah, Charene buying into it?
Maybe because she's feeling especially vulnerable or something. And then
her friend Crystal is in the background being like what

(59:09):
the hell is going on? Like, Sharene, why are you
falling for this?

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Sometimes you just need a beautiful woman to be nice
to you when you're going through it, and you'll end
up drop I've certainly dropped more money than I'm comfortable
admitting for someone who was nice to me when I
was having Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
It does the trick, it works. But yeah, all of
this just felt very real and relatable as far as
like existing with a female body in a world that's
constantly trying to make you feel bad about your body,
and her having to figure out how to feel sexy
in her body and how to you know, own her

(59:51):
sexiness and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (59:54):
Yeah, I liked her owning her sexuality. There's a transition
I love in the movie where she is hooking up
with the soft like the folk stand up and she
goes to like scratch his back and he grabbed her hand.
He is not into like the roughness she's been trying

(01:00:17):
to get going, and it just transitions straight to like
a clasped hand over her heads and it's like Maxine
on top.

Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
And great match cut.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Yeah, so good. But that certainty she had in her
sexual I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
I was trying to figure out. I was like, does
this mean like this relationship was very toxic? Did it
help her like explore and own her sexuality? Like were
we trying to see? Like I don't know if that
was trying to be displayed at all.

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Her relationship with Maxine or her hook up with that guy.

Speaker 4 (01:00:56):
It felt like her relationship with Maxine, for as toxic
as it was, did give her like this owning.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
I don't know she always had owned her sexuality.

Speaker 4 (01:01:04):
I don't know there was something there I could never
I'm still trying to process and figure out. But and
it was literally that cut that made me obsess over it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
But interesting, Yeah, I guess it's like I wasn't really
because Maxine, like she both has like really nice memories
of sex with Maxine. It seems like the sex.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Was really good.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
But then Maxine is also sort of like Vanilla pride,
vanilla representation matters, So it's like there's still I don't know. Yeah,
I guess I kept where I landed on. It was
just like it's like a little bit of column A,
a little bit of column B, because I feel like
if this movie was more prescriptive too, like Maxine turfy

(01:01:49):
as she is, you know, is being stalked by her
ex girlfriend and I think is like pretty pretty could
have been less chill about it. Yeah, So it's like
there's just so much I don't know's It seems like
these two are like willing to show each other grace
and maybe that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
Like I don't know enjoyed the sex scene though, good
sexye good sex scene.

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
Yeah, I mean obviously those two scenes are juxtaposed right
next to each other, the hook up with the folk
stand up and the way more intimate, hotter sex scene
between Sharene and Maxine. My interpretation of it was that,
and this is kind of obvious, but Sharene hooking up
with this guy she barely knows. I think she met

(01:02:33):
him earlier that day.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
Yeah, he was Brooklyn Boy eighty two, which I wrote
down for some reason.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
I was just like, oh okay, I kind of miss
okay Cupid. I know it's still around, but haven't been left.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Who's there?

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
Yeah, I'm not sure, but she was doing this to
fill a void. She longs for the intimacy she had
with Maxine, who she loved, because like you see that
scene after she had sex with that guy and they're
lying in bed, She's like on her back, like wide awake,
and then the man is just like passed out, kind
of sprawled on top of her, and you can just

(01:03:10):
kind of imagine what she's thinking, which is like get
off me and please leave my apartment. That's what I
would be thinking if it were me. Maybe I'm just projecting, but.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
No, that's definitely the vibe. Yeah, where she's like, please
get out of here so I can fantasize about my
ex right right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Right, first deepened the void.

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
Yeah, to your point, Melody, I feel like, yeah, that
she did. Probably she was able to kind of like
open up sexually with Maxine, although you know, we don't
know a lot of her history pre Maxine.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Maybe it's like sex with intimacy and it's like, yeah's talking. Yeah,
it's that he solved it for me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
I'm just not smart. That was that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
That was a three person.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Yeah, took all three got there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
But even that is like so nuanced too, right, where
it's like you found like sex with intimacy, but it's
still not quite what you need. It's like that kind
of I feel like I've had relationships like that where
it's like, Okay, that relationship was ultimately not good, but
there was one element of it that I experienced that

(01:04:24):
I'd never had before and I want that moving forward
or like that kind of deal.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Yeah, me too, And it was sexual.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Yeah, Yeah, it's I mean sometimes like not great people
learn a new way to make you come and you're like, well,
we have to sit with this.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
People contain multitudes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Turns out, evil people are often really good at sad.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Yeah it's true.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Yeah, not always, but more often than you'd want.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Or bad communicators.

Speaker 4 (01:04:52):
Verbal communicators tend to be good at sex communicate physically annoying.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Well, what else does anyone have anything else they want
to talk about?

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Love? The song at the end one of my favorites.
There's a Persian song.

Speaker 4 (01:05:06):
Oh during the credits after she's gonna be okay moment
I think she throws out is that she's gonna be
okay moment before her throwing the dildo out.

Speaker 3 (01:05:16):
Oh, I thought it was after.

Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
I think it's the last shot, right, Maybe I'm misremembering.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
The last shot is her on the train being like
I'm gonna be okay, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Okay, yeah regardless.

Speaker 4 (01:05:26):
There's a song at the end that is a popular
Persian song this artist. It's called Golayach, which translates to
like ice flower, like a frozen flower. It's got a
lot of like poetic imagery. She chose the perfect song.
It's just about like this, like melancholy nostalgia, and feeling

(01:05:46):
like emotionally distant from something. And it's I highly recommend
people I don't know listen to it and put the
lyrics through a translator.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
It's like being stuck between worlds and it is.

Speaker 4 (01:05:59):
It's borne out of this like diasporic nostalgia. But it
really it works really well. I don't know if it
was intentional or not, but it works well. After all
of this like emotionally guarded struggles between her two worlds,
it does a good job of closing it out. Really
good song. It's like a psych rock artist from the seventies.

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
That kind of reminded me of this scene where she's
talking with the scott As Dick character when they first
meet and he's like, oh, Charene, where is that from?
And he's like listing off different countries in.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Seria, Argentasia.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Well, I think, and then he also refers to like
when she says she's Irani and he's like, so, how
do you feel about I think? He's like all that,
all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
That's so real.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
Yeah, He's like, I just read this article about this
hip hop the hip hop scene in Tehran. He's like,
do you know about that? Are you into that, or
like are you part of that scene? And she's like
when I go to Iran, I'm just untangling jewelry, or
like I'm watching Disney videos while my grandma untangles jewelry.

Speaker 4 (01:07:10):
I really loved the scott At scene with the yeah, wow, Iran,
how do you feel about that?

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
Because that is so real.

Speaker 4 (01:07:19):
In Iran post nineteen seventy nine revolution is so shrouded
in mystery, like by design, like it is a heavily
censored country. You have to out of the International Foreign
Press Index, it's like rates, it's third to last out
of all of the countries. The truth has to be

(01:07:39):
smuggled out and there are real life and death repercussions
just for like I have a cousin right now who
every time he updates me on what's going on on
the streets to Tehran and we know it's like a
huge risk and we're like talking in code essentially on WhatsApp.
There's checkpoints everywhere, they'll grab your phone and go through
your deleted messages and photos. It is so just with

(01:08:02):
what's happening now, especially like watching that scene back, like
I it's very frustrating time to be an Irunnian and
just like witnessing a lot of wrong just narratives and
propaganda going around from the left and the right in
the West.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
But that was like a good reminder that it was
like what do you expect, Like that's what it is.

Speaker 4 (01:08:24):
It's such a mysterious place and there's so much like
people get shocked.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Oh my god, there's a rap scene they do wrap there.

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
Like it's like, yeah, there are Western out like globalizations
happened and reached them. Internet has you know, opened up
little like peak holes into Iranian.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Culture, and I don't know, I really appreciated that. I'm
coming through a lot, and I really appreciated that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
I mean, well, as of today, there's been an internet
blackout for how many days now, Well it went.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
Up to the nineties, and every time there's conflict in
that country, the government shuts down the internet so they
can get away with the most horrific crimes against humanity.
There was a massacre in early January January eighth and ninth, specifically,
there were protests that just turned deadly. It went from

(01:09:21):
pellet guns to like imported militias, proxy militias coming in
to shoot and kill their own people or anyone dissent,
and the internet went out for that and came back,
but then once we went to war that night, they
gave a warning. My cousin even told me it's like
at midnight they said they're cutting it, and we thought
it would just be another like week or a couple
week period like they normally do. But yeah, it lasted

(01:09:44):
months and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
It's tough.

Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
It's back now, but like you still have to purchase
a VPN to get on a messaging app, and there's
an economic disagn like I I don't care find me
Islamic Republic. I've been like sending crypto over so that
it can be like to bypass sanctions just to send
money so that they can convert it and buy VPNs,

(01:10:12):
just to let us know that they're okay and safe
from bombings.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
But yeah, it's still really bad.

Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
They're trying to introduce sort of like a North Korean
model of internet right now, and I guess they were
kind of far along on that process, but because of
the war, like certain information centers or intelligence centers were bombed,
but they're trying to make it North Korea levels of censorship,
and hopefully that doesn't happen because it is such a

(01:10:41):
beautiful culture.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
And the Iranian people, I don't know, they're the.

Speaker 4 (01:10:44):
Best, sweetest, most artistic, kind hospitable people in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
And it's just crazy. People don't know that. And you
get that from conversations like they got wrapped there.

Speaker 4 (01:10:56):
It's just like, yeah, people and they just want to
live a normal life and listen to music, which is illegal.
You can't listen to music in the street there. Women
are not allowed to sit in public. It's like, yeah,
they just.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
Want basic human rights.

Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
And I appreciate her for kind of like poking fun
of that from a diaspora point of view, Like these
conversations we have were just the most basic things about humanity.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
It's like, you, guys, they do that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
They got that there, So that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
Was well done.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
Yeah, is there anything else anyways? Is there anything else
anyone wants to chat about?

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Just hope we get more from her me too.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
I was like that was something that I noted that.
It's like she's still very much working. But every time,
like we've talked about this so a lot this year.
Almost every time we talk about women director and especially
a woman of color, like getting that sustained career as

(01:12:06):
a director is so elusive. We talked about that with
Julie Dash when we did Daughters of the Dust earlier
this year. Doesiret Acabun has directed one other movie, The
Miseducation of Cameron Post, which we should cover at some point.
It's really good, so good, And she also she wrote
and directed that in twenty eighteen, and then she has

(01:12:27):
I mean, she's been working consistently in TV, but I
just would I just I would be completely shocked if
there isn't a script that, like a project that has
been in development for far too long, you know, because
it's like, yeah, TV directing is great financially and it
could be like really enriching. But it's like she is
an oh tour director, Like that is we should be

(01:12:50):
seeing more from her. We also just talked about it
with oh my gosh, Kayla, what is the movie we
covered two seconds ago?

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
Slums of Beverly Hills.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
Slums of Beverly Hills. Yes, like show where that director
has spoken extensively on like how impossible, like it took it.
It's like a decade between projects because who can say,
who can say? But if you look at really like
I feel like a lot a lot of women have
really promising debuts, and then they are sort of relegated

(01:13:21):
to less prominent areas that you just know would not
be happening to a man in their position.

Speaker 4 (01:13:26):
So right, there's development in hell and that standard. But
then for women it's like double that. It feels like,
or women of color, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:13:34):
Like the seventh circle of Hell. Development Hell.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Yes, right, it's just all gaslighting and ridiculousness. But she's
so amazing and in a world with even the tiniest
bit of justice in it, we will be seeing a
lot more from her.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
Yes, well, I saw an interview with her. It was
like a screening of this film followed by a Q
and A with her that they did I think is
like ten year anniversary, So it was a couple of
years ago that this happened. She was not able to
be there in person, so it was like a Q
and A with her over zoom. But she talks about

(01:14:11):
how she has two feature scripts that she's been working
on developing, trying to get into production, so hopefully any
any second now, we'll get one or both of them.

Speaker 4 (01:14:26):
That's the decade, the mandatory decade waiting period for a
woman of color, So that's a time it's just.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
So it's so diabolical. I'm okay, I'm just gonna hold
my tongue. I'm gonna hold my tongue now, or we'll
be here all day.

Speaker 3 (01:14:44):
Well, the movie does pass the Bechdel test, as we
eluded earlier, between many different characters, between Scharene and Maxine
of course, Scharene and Crystal, Scharene and her mother, Scharene
and Tibet Rena, Tibet Green, and the BRA sales person lots.

(01:15:06):
I don't know if we know her name.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
But there's really not a lot of men of importance
in this plot. I would say her brother is maybe
the most narratively impactful. Man, this is true, and he's
not in it very much.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
And her boss just being like stone parts.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
So oh also that his defining characteristics. He's like, I
never know where my son is. You're like, all right, man.
That's his last line where he's like, where's my son?

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
Have you seen him? Oh? Man?

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
Yeah? So it passes the Pecto test. But what about
our nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a
scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it
through an intersectional feminist lens. I think I'll go four
with this one. I am going to take off a
full nipple for the anti trans sentiments and jokes that

(01:16:03):
occur throughout the movie. But again, I would hazardou guess
that had this movie come out ten years later or
more recent projects of desires, that she would avoid that.
So it does feel of the time. But even so,
I'm gonna take a nipple off for that. But yeah,

(01:16:24):
four nipples and I'm gonna give them all to Desiree
and again, hope we see more of her work soon.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
A constantly I'm gonna go yeah, I'm like, I guess,
I'm like between three point seven and five and four.
This is this movie is like so distinct, Like it
this movie I feel like only could have been made
by this person in this year. Like it is both
so specific to who Desiree Achabon is and it's so

(01:16:52):
twenty fourteen in ways that are both really cool and transphobic.
The transphobia I really had a hard time with, I think,
just especially because it just kept kept on coming back.
But I do, I do totally agree that like this
is like not something that would appear today. That is
the twenty fourteen sque thing about this movie. Besides some

(01:17:14):
of the clothes. But but I really, I mean, I
really loved this movie. This is like the fact that
this is her debut is kind of nuts, and that
she gives a really good performance in it. I just
she's wearing so many hats. Everything about it works for me,
except for the things that we've discussed. I'm going to

(01:17:34):
go for. I'm gonna go for and I'm going to
give them all to our good friend Desiree.

Speaker 3 (01:17:40):
Nice melody, how about you? How about you?

Speaker 4 (01:17:44):
I was thinking for Neon twenty fourteen style mesh covered nipples.

Speaker 1 (01:17:53):
Some of the outfits were trigged.

Speaker 2 (01:17:56):
I honestly had physical reactions.

Speaker 1 (01:18:00):
It's like my butt cheeks were so clenched during the
the shirts were so Why were our shirts so love?
What was going on?

Speaker 4 (01:18:10):
It's because like our pants were so tight that our
junk was on display or like something, or the pants
were so low.

Speaker 3 (01:18:19):
Yeah, it was an evil time. Melody, Thank you so
much for being here.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
Thanks for having me, guys, it's so much fun.

Speaker 3 (01:18:29):
Where can people follow you on social media? Plug anything
you want to plug?

Speaker 4 (01:18:35):
Well, I'm on a therapist mandated break from Instagram because
I've been crushing out in comments sections defending my people
in the homeland. But I'm at Melody Kamali on all
social media, and I'll be back in a sane way.
But you know, really limiting that right now because of

(01:18:56):
the propaganda. Yeah, really heavy right now.

Speaker 2 (01:19:00):
Yeah, but I'm around Hit me up.

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):
And you can follow us on Instagram at Bechdel Cast,
where we are not very active because I also can't
stand social media, but where you can really follow us
and support us is our Patreon aka Matreon, where you

(01:19:24):
get two bonus episodes every single month, plus access to
the back catalog of over two hundred bonus episodes, all
for five dollars a month. What a damn good special.
What a deal? What a deal?

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
And with that?

Speaker 3 (01:19:38):
Should we I was gonna say, throw away the dil
does I want to be over?

Speaker 1 (01:19:47):
Let's say three let's meet three girls and days who
are going to be okay. I'm like, I'm looking around,
I'm sipping my coffee, I'm nodding.

Speaker 3 (01:19:55):
We're on the train going to be okay.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
That's literally my train really view. Yeah, next time I'm
on it. Yeah, later today I'll be.

Speaker 3 (01:20:05):
I'll be a okay, you'll be okay, going to be okay, beautiful.
I love that for you. Okay bye by Like.

Speaker 1 (01:20:15):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and
produced by Me, Jamie Loftus and.

Speaker 3 (01:20:21):
Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

Speaker 6 (01:20:25):
And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of Them? That's
me and our logo and merch and all of our artwork,
in fact are designed by Jamie Loftis, Ever heard of her?

Speaker 1 (01:20:36):
Oh My God? And our theme song, by the way,
was composed by Mike.

Speaker 3 (01:20:40):
Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only
Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 3 (01:20:49):
For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash
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