Bad Santa with Alonso Duralde

On this episode, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Alonso Duralde discuss Bad Santa! Ho ho ho!

Follow Alonso at @alonso.duralde on Instagram, listen to his podcasts Linoleum Knife, Breakfast All Day, & Maximum Film, check out his reviews at thefilmverdict.com, and grab a copy of his book, Have Yourself a Movie Little Christmas!

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zephyn bast
start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello, and welcome to Bad Bechdel Cast. I'm bad, Caitlin.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
And I'm bad Jamie. And this is our podcast. That's
not I was. This is our bad podcast. This is
this is our good podcast about bad movies about bad
well you know, not every week, but.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Uh, but a lot of theme.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
So this is our podcast where we take a look
at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using
the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for a discussion.
Which is going to be hilarious this week because I
think the main interaction between women in this movie is
lorlike Gilmore stealing Grandma's socks. I think that that is

(00:59):
that is about the beginning, middle, and end, but we'll
talk about it. It is the Bad Santa episode. I think,
continuing the trend on the show recently of now that
we've been around for almost ten years, like movies that
you would think we would have covered by now, but
for whatever reason, it never quite wins in a poll.
Whatever it is, we are covering Bad Santa. But first, Caitlin,

(01:22):
what the hell is the Bechdel Test? So we can
be certain this movie doesn't pass it, which it.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Doesn't, certainly. It is a media metric created by our
very best friend in the whole wide world, Alison Bechdel.
We've met her twice. Yeah, different versions of the test.
The one that we use is this, do two characters
of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to
each other? And is the conversation about something other than

(01:49):
a man? And then we also like it when it's
a narratively meaningful conversation and not just throw away dialogue.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Which I don't even think. The saw the SoC thing
is kind of just a side gag that doesn't really
serve a narrative purpose, does it? I would say no,
A lot of things in this movie don't serve a
narrative purpose. It's very a vibes it's a vibes based film.
But we so to bring on Bad Santa. We have
an incredible guest who is an expert in this field,

(02:18):
not in being Bad Santa, but in holiday movies specifically,
so let's get him in here.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Absolutely. He's a film critic, podcast host, and author of
the book Have Yourself a Movie, Little Christmas. It's Alonso
de Aldi.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
Hello, welcome, Thank you for having me. I once did
a Comic Con panel with Alison Bechdel.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Actually, oh, oh gosh, so she's your best friend too, that's
how that works.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yes, yeah, you've spent probably a comparable amount of time
the exactly we love her here obviously. Yes, I I'm
so curious to hear about the book and updating the book.
But to ask you a question I'm sure everyone does
all the time. What is your favorite holiday movie? Oh?

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Man, it's hard for me to pick one. I mean,
I think it's sort of inescapably. You know, It's a
Wonderful Life is a movie that has become kind of
a cornerstone of American cinema in general. That is also,
you know, a Christmas movie. But so much of it
depends on kind of what mood I'm in, Like if
you look at the book, you know, I've got chapters
about tearjerkers and about you know, horror movies and action films,

(03:23):
So it sort of depends on you know, I think
what's great about the idea of Christmas movies is that
whatever you're in the mood for and whatever kind of
film flows your boat, you will find something that dovetails
with you know, Christmas.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
It is such as you were saying that, I'm like,
I actually don't. I had to think for a second
to figure out my answer to that question. Caitlin, do
you know what your favorite holiday movie is?

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yes? I have two. Muppet Christmas Carol.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
That's tied for my first one too. Yeah, and Batman Returns.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
Right.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Oh, okay, I think's Muppet Christmas Carol. And I don't
know if this is an embarrassing one or not, but
I love Jim Carrey Grinch. I love it.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
No, that's that's great.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
That's a good Okay, Okay, I'm sensing a tepid reception
and the chat that's fun. That's fun.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
Not my favorite. It's hitting twenty five this year and
they're actually doing I think it's going to be back
in theaters and they're putting out like a four K.
It's a whole thing.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
We saw it in theaters last year as well. I
think like at the end of the day that movie
came out when I was seven, and that is probably
why I still love it so much.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
We have a recurring thing on Breakfast all Day called
was it great? Or were you eight?

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Very much what this wants, which, weirdly, I think comes
into play for a lot of people with the movie
we were talking about today, Bad Santa. But before we
get there, Alansa, what was it like revising the book
and the re release? Tell us more about it?

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Well, you know, it's funny. I think if you have
like a website or a podcast, you can constantly be
updating it and bringing it, you know, up to speed.
But once you've written a book, it's just dunk. It's there,
you know, and it's sitting there and there's nothing you
can do to change it. So pretty much from the
moment the first edition came out back in twenty ten,
I've been thinking in my head, Oh, I got to

(05:07):
add this. I want to add this. I hope I
can do this again so I can put in these
other movies, and not just the many new films that
have opened since twenty ten. But I'm constantly finding things
that I had missed before, Like thanks to TCM, I
was introduced to the whole world of Christmas Noir, which
I had just completely missed the boat on. So now

(05:28):
I've got films like Blast of Silence and Cash on Demand.
You know, I got to circle back and put in
So yeah, it was It was a treat because it
sort of allowed the book to be a living document
again that I could sort of update and talk about
certain things, and you know, never mentioned the movie about
the boy Wizard again and you know, all of that

(05:49):
stuff to kind of bring it to twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Oh that is amazing. Thank you for Like the second
you said that sub genre, You're like, yeah, of course
that exists, but occurred to me. I'm excited to get
a copy of the book. I'm stoked.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
And we come to this place today for magic, and
by that I mean a discussion of the two thousand
and three movie Bad Santa, which I think is I
do feel like Caitlin. Over the years we have covered
truly a staggering amount of movies that came out in
the year two thousand and three. Again, I think probably

(06:25):
just a youth bias of the time. Alonza. We'll start
with you, what is your history with the movie Bad Santa?
And I guess at this point, the Bad Santa cinematic universe.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
Yeah, Weirdly, I can't remember if I saw it in
theaters or not. Surely I must have, if only because
I was a huge fan of Ghost World, which was
Terry's Waggoff's previous film, which is a total Bechdel Test passer.
I want to say it is as a non expert,
but I don't remember vividly seeing it, but I know
it was certainly when I when I wrote the book

(06:58):
the first time around it it was one that I
knew had to go in there. And it's a film
that I appreciate, and I get why people like it,
and I get why people need that kind of Christmas
movie in their diet in December, if they're just like
oding on sugar plums and they need a little, you know,
a little saltiness in there. I get the role that

(07:19):
it plays in a balanced, you know, holiday diet. And
I remember kind of not hating Bad Santa two as
much as most people did. Not that I'm not going
to die on the hill of that movie, but I
was kinder to it, I think than a lot of
other critics were. But generally speaking, these have been ones
where there are a lot of films in the book

(07:39):
that was like, I knew I had to include them
because they have a following, because they have spawned you know,
Christmas tree ornaments, and you know they get screened every year,
you know your National Lampoon, Christmas vacations. You know. I
was way too old for the home alone phenomenon. I
was in my twenties when the first one came out,
so I don't have the attachment to it, to the
people who were you know, seven when it came out

(08:00):
have but you know, I get why they're there. I
get why people love them. And this is in that
category of like if you like Bad Santa, I get it.
I understand what it's bringing to you every December.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
Right, it is definitely I guess I'm like, where would
I put I would put this in the same category
as National landpun. I think I would also include Eight
Crazy Nights in like the Edge Lord Christmas Cannon that
this is firmly a part.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Of Yeah, yeah, Winter Holiday, Like Edge Lord, highly problematic
movie or subgenre.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
So like a lot of broad comedies, it doesn't age
particularly well.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
Right, I mean, weirdly a Christmas story. When it first
came out in nine eighty three was designed to be
kind of an anti Christmas Christmas movie. It was designed
to poke holes in nostalgia and the idea of looking
back on this sort of rosy Norman Rockwell past and
sort of showing that it was actually a lot messier
than we give it credit for. But over the years

(08:59):
that movie has it's self become this object of nostalgia
that I think it's kind of dulled the original intent
of being sort of spiky.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
And I mean, I, as a self proclaimed grne, like
the idea of a movie that subverts the notion that
Christmas is this sweet, joyous time where everything is nice
and wonderful, Like I don't like super saccerin holiday movies typically,
so something like Bad Santa.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
In theory, you should be the target Audioce is.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
More aligned with what I would like. But just I
guess to say my history with this movie, I saw
it around the time it came out, and I hated
it then and I hate it now. I did not
think it was funny. I don't like the humor of
this movie at all, for the same reason back then
as I do like that's how problematic so many of
the jokes are in this movie that even in two

(09:50):
thousand and four or whenever I saw it, I was like,
you can't say that, so so I really don't care
for this movie. What about you, Jamie, what's your relationship
with it?

Speaker 1 (10:05):
I'd never seen it before. I yeah, I'm also coming
in as a hater. But it's a rich text. It
is a rich text that we and there is I
think a lot of like production information about this movie
that I was kind of interested in that Like, once
I learned it, I was like, oh, I guess this

(10:25):
is like a worse Coen Brothers premise, Like if the
Coen Brothers had actually written this movie, it could have
maybe been not quite what it is, but like it
was almost so many different movies that I found learning
about the production history interesting. You know, is it shocking
to find out the Weinsteins have fingerprints on this? Certainly not.

(10:45):
But I remember, I mean I was too young to
see it when it came out, But I also remember
I remember them marketing very clearly because I was not
too young to be watching Gilmore Girls, which I was
very much watching in two thousand and three, and all
of the children and their mothers watching Gilmore Girls. It
was kind of a scandalous thing that Laura, like Gilmore
is in Bad Santa licking Billy Bob Thornton on TV,

(11:09):
and you're like, that's an upstanding citizen of Stars Harlow, Connecticut.
Like she would not be caught dead saying fuck me
Santa in a car. But that's the range that Lauren
Graham has. I love Lauren Graham does exactly what would
Rory Rory would be just Rory's home. You have to imagine, like,

(11:30):
especially because her character exists in this like fuck void,
as many women in broad comedies do that, I feel
like you can be like, this is like Laura, like
Gilmore on an absolute bender like Rory's home studying and
she's fucking Santa. I just I understand now why Lauren

(11:51):
Graham did this at this point in her career to
be like, hey, I'm not just Laura like Gilmore, I
can also fuck Santa. I also understand why I have
sounded like a good idea to do this movie at
the time, and it was successful, so you know, you
could argue, and you know Bernie Mac smoking a cigarette
and mixing a laxative. I was laughing. I wasn't laughing

(12:13):
very much, but I was laughing. Then, Yeah, I did
not like the movie. I did not, but I am
interested to talk about it because it is like, it's
an interesting subgenre that I like and I wish like
I think there is like a version of this movie
I would like or this premise.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
I guess there's a thing we get into with comedies
of I think, certainly in this era. And yeah, I
think Edge Lord is a fair descriptor, at least in
terms of the audience, where I think that maybe people
set out to portray behavior that was appalling and audiences
were like, ooh yeah, like I'm down for this, Like

(12:52):
the generations of dudes who had to be explained that
Swingers was not a how to, that Swingers was not asked,
but they took it that way anyway. And I think
it's telling that the Cherry's Wygoff director's cut of this
movie is the shortest of all the cuts, and it's
the cut that makes the Billy Bob Thornton's character the

(13:13):
least appealing, like everything, where he's sort of nice to
the kid he takes out, so he is not interested
in making his protagonist like appealing to the audience or
somebody that we root for or empathize with. And but
so I mean, yeah, I think you're right. A lot
of it is on paper, and it's in the film,
and it's in the text, and we have to deal
with that. But I think there is also that thing

(13:35):
where the audience decides, oh, hey, you know Freddy Krueger,
he's so funny, you know, like that they they imbue
a character who is to be a hero with heroic
tendencies because they feel like it.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, I was. That was another thing that I was
really interested to talk about with you both, is how
wildly different the various cuts of this movie seem to be.
I watched a bad Er Santa, which I think is
the longest version of this movie. Yes, and that is
the version that somehow the movie Joker is going to

(14:08):
become relevant in a moment because Todd Phillips was brought
in to direct a couple of scenes Terry's Wygoff. So
Terry's Wygoff. We've covered ghost World on the show. You
can go to that episode. We've got takes on ghost World.
But yeah, like I mean, he directs infrequently, and so
it is it is kind of I didn't know he
had directed this, and I was like, Wow, this really

(14:29):
doesn't seem like the movie he directs, and it's clear that,
like everyone had a slightly different creative vision here, like
Terry's Wygoff wants to make a movie about a despicable
person and does not want you to feel you know,
bad for him, which I think is like most clearly
illustrated by basically cutting out the relationship between him and

(14:51):
young Roger his young Ward Thurman. Oh my god, wait
did someone calls him Roger?

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Roger is Thurman's dad?

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Oh okay, see this okay, and also a monologue at
the beginning of the movie. I don't think is in
this wygof cut that basically gives you a framework for
why bad Santa is the way he is, where it
implies that he had an abusive upbringing and you know,
you're given a framework that doesn't justify the behavior but

(15:23):
contextualizes it. Terry's Wygoff has no interest in that. The
theatrical cut, and then even more so, the longer cut,
has more of an interest in doing what you know,
like commercial movies do, which is give him a redemption arc,
give him a you know, I gotta get this selevant
to this little kid then blah blah blah, and you know,

(15:44):
and I honestly don't know which version of it I that.
I couldn't really decide. I'm like, I don't really want
a redemption narrative for this guy, but I also like
it's you know, zwygov Has will disagree, but I don't
like watching a terrible person for eighty five uninterrupted minutes,
nor I So I don't know. It's a It's a

(16:06):
sticky wicket this one.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
It really is. And we'll get into it, but first
let's take a quick break and then we'll come back
for the recap. We're back, ho ho hoick.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Quick question before we get into the recap. Do we
think that John Ritter would want this movie to be
dedicated to him? Oh? Rip. I love John Ritter, and
I understand why it was dedicated to him, it's his
last film appearance. But I'm like, I don't know. I
don't know if I would be like, yeah, slap my
name at the end. I want to be forever associated

(16:50):
with this.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Well in the same way that Clorus Leachman is in
this movie but uncredited, and I have to imagine it's
because she's like I don't want my name.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, she's like, oh, I'm so sorry. I thought I
was in a Cohen Brothers movie.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
I feel like that's how a lot of these people
get involved because it's a great cast, and some people
think that they're going to be in a Terry's Wygoff movie.
That's going to be allowed to be a Terry's Wygoff movie.
Some people think they're in a Cohen Brothers movie, and
kind of like they're in a Weinstein Brothers movie, which
is the worst case scenario.

Speaker 3 (17:20):
I think there's an onion piece that's written from the
point of view of somebody who had an episode of
Ironica's Closet dedicated to them. So yeah, I think it's
just one of those things where you never know when
you're gonna go. So like any any project could be
your last.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
That's a really that's a very harsh reality because I
mean John Ritter was also I mean he was he
was in his fifties. I feel like he, you know,
if he knew he was living on borrow time, this
maybe would not have been the one, but who knows,
We'll never know.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
In any case, here's the recap of the movie. So
we meet Willie played by Billy Bob Thornton. He works
as a mall Santa, but he's not very good at
his job. You might even say he's a bad Santa
because he's mean to children. He gets drunk on the job,

(18:10):
he pisses himself. He also works with Marcus played by
Tony Cox, who is a little person who dresses up
as an elf. And then we get a reveal that
Willy and Marcus break into the mall after hours and
that their Santa slash Elf jobs are just a cover

(18:32):
so that they can steal stuff on Christmas Eve, where
Marcus takes a bunch of merchandise. Willy is a safe
cracker by trade and he steals a bunch of cash
from the safe and we find out they've been doing
this every Christmas Eve for the past seven or so years.
And after they successfully pull off this heist, they go

(18:55):
out to celebrate and Willie contemplates trying to get his
life together. He's like, oh, maybe I'll stop drinking, maybe
I'll open up business and settle down and get married.
But he's forgetting that he's a bad Santa. And eleven
months pass of him being a drunken degenerate.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Bad off season Santa.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, he's bad off season and off season.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
It is very I mean, he's a bad dude. But
this man is just he's just so actively in despair.
From frame one where you're just like it's I'm worried
about him. I'm thinking of him like an uncle.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
There's a John Cassavetti's version of this movie where it's
just about a guy who's an alcoholic who also is
a Santa you know, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, I mean it seems like that sounds like it's
closer to what Terry's Waygoff wanted and they're like, oh no,
we have to give him. He needs to be a
father by the end of the movie.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Like does he well also to speak to like the
Coen Brothers conceit of it all because originally the Coen
Brothers developed the concept for this movie, and then they
brought on another writing team to write the script, but
the Coen Brothers were still involved to some degree in
the development of the script. It seems like they added
some crass jokes seemingly not too far from what ends

(20:11):
up in the movie, and then the Coen Brothers stay
attached as executive producers, but any of the cleverness and
tact that I think usually appears in a movie that
the Coen Brothers are involved with, is mostly absent from
Bad Santa. But like if this was maybe like The

(20:32):
Big Lebowski but the dude Moonlight says as Santa Claus
or something like that. So if it's like a character
like the dude who is way more redeemable than this
Willy character, like that's a movie I can get behind.
But Willy is so I guess intentionally despicable, but also
just by virtue of like having him be the protagonist,

(20:55):
and like this is the character we're following and laughing at.
We're laughing at all the joke he says, and like
so many people love this movie for the wrong reasons,
like you were saying, Alonzo. So like it's just it's
so hard to get behind for me.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
But anyway, So about a year passes and then Willie
gets a call from Marcus. It's that time of year again,
and they show up at a department store in Phoenix, Arizona,
in their Santa and Elf costumes. Willy is once again

(21:31):
horrible at his job. He's drunk, he's cruel to the children,
he swears in front of his boss played by John Ritter,
who goes to the security manager of the store, Bernie Mack,
and asks him to keep an eye on Willie.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
Bernie Mack is funny in everything. Yes, he's just never
not amazing.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
I know, he's too good for this movie.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Then we meet a child named Thurman Merman. Although we
won't learn his name for a really long time.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
It's so it's I clocked it at least in the
Batter Santa cut. It's thirty two minutes in where you
get a name for this character, which doesn't feel like
a strategic reveal. It just I kept writing down child
question mark because it just takes a really long time
to learn what his name is.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Well, the idea is that Willie doesn't bother to find
out his name for we know, and then finally he's
like toward the end of the movie, he's looking at
Thurman's report card and he's like, Thurman, who is that?

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Is that you? Merman?

Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, so we don't really know what his name is
for a long time, but I'll call him Thurman because
that's his name. He's played by Brett Kelly.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Who reprises the role in Bad Santa too, and also
has a really funny paragraph in his Wikipedia page I
would like to share. Oh please, I don't know who
has it in for this guy and included this on
his Wikipedia page. He was a contestant on the October
twenty third, twenty twenty four episode of Jeopardy. He ended

(23:08):
Double Jeopardy with zero dollars, thus did not qualify for
Final Jeopardy and therefore finished in third place. Someone hates
this guy? Why would you put that on that? It
is such a short Wikipedia page, and that's one of
the things I have.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
I have a nice Brett Kelly thing to add to.
So he appears in another Christmas comedy that I like
quite a bit called Unaccompanied Minors. Oh yes, Paul fig directed,
and Lewis Black plays the sort of harried airport manager
in that movie. And he actually said, he goes, I
took the movie because I wanted to work with the

(23:44):
kid from Bad Santa.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Oh that's really sweet.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
So you actually told him on set, Yeah, you're the
reason I'm here, kid, I wanted to work with you.
So you know, that's that's a Brett Kelly positive.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
True, That's that must have been so exciting. God, I mean,
it's he he's adorable in this movie, He's not, you know,
he's he's just a boy.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
I know. And he is frequently bullied by other kids by.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Literally like bullied dot like jpeg, like like he's just some.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Kid, yeah bully TM. He's also bullied by Willie when
Thurman comes into Santa's workshop at the department store and
sits on Willy's lap, and Thurman asks him a bunch
of questions about being Santa because he thinks that Willy
is the real Santa Claus and is enamored by him.

(24:42):
Later that night, Willie meets a bartender named Sue I think,
but that's the Lauren Graham character, and she has a
Santa kink, so she buys him a few drinks and
then has sex with him in his car in the parking.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Fuck me Santa, Fuck me Santa, Fuck me Santa. Correct,
and then we are introduced to for the little screen
time she has. All of it is just completely like irrational.
I'm so curious at what point this love story became
like I'm curious if this is a studio mandated romance,
because it just wasn't. I don't know, like her whole

(25:22):
thing where it's like, okay, it's one thing to have
a Santa cank, Fine, okay, But then at the end
she's like, I like you, I think you're You're like, no,
you don't.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Come on, what do you like about him? He is
the most despicable person imaginable.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
He's mean, any stinks.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, anyways, I know, we'll talk about it. But so
they have sex in the car, and then right after this,
a man who was at the bar aggressively approaches Willie.
And it's unclear exactly what is going on here, but
we do know that it's homophobic.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
You're like, oh, we we see this person again. No, no, no,
we will not see this person again. He's here to
be a I don't know plot device.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, and so he attacks Willie, but Thurman intervenes and
kind of saves Willy. So he gives Thurman a ride home,
where he lives in a big house with his grandma
played by Chloris Leachman, who seems completely oblivious to her surroundings.
And Thurman again is incredibly naive and he still thinks

(26:28):
Willy is the real Santa Claus. So Willi takes advantage
of this situation and steals money and a car from them,
and Thurman's just like, whatever you need, Santa. Then Willy
continues to be bad Santa. He has sex with a
woman in the dressing room at work, and he gets

(26:51):
caught by John Ritter, but he manages to weasel his
way out of getting fired. Then he thinks maybe a
cop is snoop around his motel room, and he worries
that the police are onto him and Marcus for their robberies.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
I did think it was very funny. I don't know
if this was a joke or just like how the
scene ended up. But he's like loudly making a phone
call about this like basically hotel. He's like, hey, I
think they're onto us, yeah, which is just like, ah,
movies are fun.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Also, Octavia Spencer's in this scene and we're like.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Oh, they really be the Octavier. The early roles of
Octavia Spencer like she deserves.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Peace, seven pounds, seven pounds.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
It's gracious. And then she came back for the sequel
and we're just like, she's too nice. She's too nice.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
I did watch the sequel to prep for this.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
Okay, yes, and thoughts.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
I have regrets. I'll share my thoughts when we get
to the discussion.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
But okay, I did not watch. I did not watch
the sequel.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Also, by the way, speaking of Gilmore Girls, Alex Borstein
pops up in here as well, yes.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
Which also feels like a two thousand and three comedy requisite,
like she has to be there and I'm always happy
to see her.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
This is like peak mad TV era.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's Lois for crying out loud. I'm always
happy to see her.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
Okay. So Willy's like, oh no, the cops are onto us.
So he decides to go back to Thurman's house and
hide out there for a while, and Thurman is all
too happy about this. He keeps asking more questions about
Santa and the North Pole and the reindeer and everything else.
And sometimes it seems like Willy and Thurman are hanging

(28:38):
out because they're like playing checkers and stuff. But mostly
Willy just treats Thurman horribly and has Lauren Graham's character
over for sex in one of.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
I think the most baffling seeds. It just I don't
know the Lauren Graham character, like you have you gotta
laugh or what can you do? But this scene where
we've established because she is a woman. She loves kids
and she wants kids, and you know, true of a
lot of women, but I think it's a default mode

(29:13):
for women in movies. You know, she loves kids, but
she's totally fine with being caught having sex in front
of a kid. Does not make any effort to move,
She just sort of passively watches the conversation as if
the writer for baby It's just it just pisses me.
And then at the end she's like, Wow, he's such

(29:33):
a great kid. I was like, what is this? What
is this? Does she like kids or not?

Speaker 2 (29:39):
She also sees Willie be horrible too, thermin and says.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Nothing, and she's like, I can fix him, question Mark.
But ultimately she like, you know, the reasons that Willy changes,
at least in the theatrical cut of this movie, have
little to nothing to do with her. They have almost
everything to do with Thurman Merman, which I'm not upset about,
but like, also, you're just like, what is the function

(30:08):
of this character other than this is a comedy and
therefore we need a hot woman in it.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Right. I should have mentioned also that I believe the
version that I watched and am doing the recap on
is the theatrical cut. Okay, so anyway, we see Willy
and Thurman hanging out. There's also a scene where Thurman
badly cuts his hand and Willy kind of helps him
and kind of shows a little concern and maybe Willy

(30:36):
is growing and changing question mark. He even cooks dinner
for Thurman and his grandmother. But then Thurman gets beaten
up by his bullies and he goes to Willy for help,
and Willy's like, well, what do you want me to
do about it? Leave me alone? So I guess he
still has some growing and learning to do. Meanwhile, John

(30:59):
Richard has asked Bernie Mack if he can help him
get Willy fired. So Bernie Mack starts doing some digging
on Willie and Marcus, and he tells John Ritter's character
that their track record is clean, but he knows actually
that they are thieves, and he approaches Willy and Marcus

(31:23):
to blackmail them and be like, give me half and
I won't turn you in.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
See, And now it's feeling like a Coen Brothers movie again.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Right right, And they have no choice but to agree
to this. The next day, Willie shows up to work
as Santa Drunker than ever he makes a scene. It
seems like he has hit rock bottom, especially when he
attempts suicide. But then Thurman comes in and Willy sees

(31:53):
that his face is bruised, so Willy decides not to
end his life, and instead he beats up the children
who have been bullying Thurman because Willy is feeling parental
towards Thurman now or something. So now Willie feels like
he has helped Thurman and he feels good about himself,

(32:15):
and he gets Marcus to help him teach Thurman how
to defend himself, and so he's like doing all of
these what he thinks are nice gestures. And then a
little while later, Thurman gives Willie the Christmas present he
made for him, a wooden pickle, which is how he
cut his hand in the previous scene.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Literally gives a phallic item with his blood in it,
and you're like, huh, okay, wow, the themes are so subtle.
I don't know, but.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
Willy seems really touched by this.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Then Thurman reveals that he has not received any presence
from Santa for the past couple years, and he thinks
maybe it's because he's a no good loser and Willy
is like, well, look kid, I'm not Santa. In fact,
there is no Santa, and Thurman is like, well, I

(33:12):
know that. I just thought maybe you'd want to give
me a present because we're friends. And Willy's like, oh
damn so true.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
And you can tell that same was added in because
shortly after Thurban just goes back to calling him Santa
and trading him like he's real Santa.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
Right then, Willy has Lauren Graham's character over to spend
Christmas eve Day with him and Thurman and they do
lots of Christmas e things. Meanwhile, Marcus and his girlfriend
who we see occasionally, but don't worry, we won't learn

(33:49):
anything about.

Speaker 3 (33:50):
Her for your wife, I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, some Romanta partner.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
I also there was a shot in at least I
think this might differ tween cuts. There's a shot that
I was like, I guess confused by in the longer
in Batter Santa, where I thought she was gonna like
egg on my face. I thought she's gonna do something
that was her idea, but it turned out I was wrong.

(34:18):
But there there is a scene where you know they're
in the mal cafeteria and Tony Cox calls Bad Santa
a scumbag. His girlfriend is there, and then she's like
taking notes as Billy Bob Thornton is making a confession
about the details of what's being done, and I was like,
is she gonna blackmail him? Is she gonna? Is she gonna,
you know, go off on her own and do something?

(34:40):
But then she doesn't, so never mind, So never mind
she does A woman almost had an idea, but then
it was like, oh wait, I misunderstood.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
No note, that would never happen in a movie, Jamie. Sorry.
So Marcus and his partner killed Bernie mack by run.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
I did not see that come over with their van
kind of signs style that I associate that kind of
death was signed.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yes, absolutely, yeah, And I guess the idea is that
they won't have to give him half of whatever they steal.
And then Marcus and Willie get to work on their
usual robbing the department store on Christmas Eve, and Willie
cracks the safe and then he's like, oh wait, one

(35:32):
last thing, and he grabs the stuffed elephant toy that
Thurman mentioned he wanted. But then Marcus pulls a gun
on Willie.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
The heel turn of Marcus is so like this ten
minutes is a journey for I was like, this is
not who I understood this man to be. Wow.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, it's almost like the screenwriting is not very.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Good, written by forty five different people. Yeah, kind of fun, but.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
But Willy's like, I can't count on you anymore. You're
drunk and unreliable Willie. And then he's about to shoot
him and take all the money for himself, but then
a bunch of deis X security guards pop out and
Willie manages to get away, and he's hell bent on

(36:22):
giving Thurman the Christmas gift, so he goes back to
Thurman's house with the stuffed elephant, but the cops are
chasing him and they shoot Willy on the stoop of
the house, but Willy survives somehow, even though he had
like eight bullet wounds.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Does he die in this Terry's wyof cut?

Speaker 3 (36:41):
I oh, I don't think he dies on any of them,
but it's been a while since I've seen it, so
don't quote me on that.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
It would be wild if he died in that cut.
And then there's still somehow a sequel where he's.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
Good point.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Well, Terry's Wagoff also had nothing to do with the sequel,
and he also says that they kind of wait, he's
something that was kind of bitchy that I thought was
funny in a piece I read it. He said something
like I will not be seeing it, the best of
luck to all involved, kind of thing. He said, I'd
like to see the sequel Shore. So far, I've only
seen the trailer. Tony Cox looks hilarious in it. The

(37:16):
rest not so promising, but I wish of luck.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
I was like, wow, bitchy it well, and he had
to sorry, just real quick. He had to fight for
Tony Cox. The Wine scenes did not they were. They
wanted like Mickey Rourke or something, you know, to play
that role.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
So they didn't. They didn't appreciate the Tony Cox casting.
They really didn't appreciate the Brett Kelly casting. They wanted
like a sort of Zach Efferny Disney kid, and so
that they actually came up with a kid who looks
like a genuine, you know, kid on kind of nerd. Yeah,
a regular looking kid. Uh, you know. These were not
the not the movie the Wine Scenes had in mind,
and they obviously wanted something softer and kinder and gentler,

(37:54):
which is why I did not want to give them.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
It's interesting because it feels like, yeah, this is uh.
I always find like production notes on movies like this interesting,
where it's like there's so many cooks in the kitchen
and everyone wants something that is like pretty wildly different,
and so it ends up so it ends up being
like a little bit of all of it, and it
just is is a weird thing, and you're just like, well,

(38:17):
what version of this? So you just have to be like,
what version of this movie would I have liked to see?

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Choose your adventure?

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, to go back to the sequel really quick. That
movie was directed by Mark Waters of Mister Mengl Mean
Girl's Fame, Freaky Friday Fame, another like huge departure from
what he normally does, Like why are all these guys
directing bad Santa movies when they had previously done like

(38:49):
movies about teen girls, Like.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Well, I think it's it's weird, it's a pivot. It's
not my least favorite pivot. I feel like my least
favorite pivot was like twenty nineteen ish, when every guy
who directed a broad comedy like an offensive broad comedy
of the early two thousands was like I'm making a
me too movie and I was like, no, you're not.
Why are we letting you do that?

Speaker 3 (39:13):
Well, I remember in the two thousands it was a
definite like queer Indie to mainstream teen girl pipeline, Like
you know, Jim Fall went from Trick to the Lizzie
McGuire movie, and you know, Tommy o'hager did get over it,
and the guy who did kissing Jessica Stein did like,
you know, legally Blonde two. Like that was that was

(39:34):
the segue.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
It's interesting, Yeah, like these bizarro pipelines that you're like,
I guess it made sense to them. I don't know
really well in the same way that like, for at least,
I feel like it's kind of winding down now. But
it's like, if you made a really good A twenty
four movie, you would then make a really horrible Marvel movie.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
What did the director of Minari just do? It was
something like it's like not a fast and furious movie,
but something like that. We're like, really, oh wait, that's
you're okay. Oh Twisters, Twisters?

Speaker 1 (40:05):
Oh I kind of liked Twisters.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
I gotta say no, it was fun, but it was
just like, this is who we're Okay. I mean, I
guess you understand small town America, you.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Know, like Barry Barry Jenkins mufassa like that. Yeah, that
kind of good example. It is weird, it is. I
don't know why it feels particularly weird for Terry's wagoff
to have made this jump, but it does.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
He's just I think again, and I think we're grappling
with the movie they thought they were making and the
movie that different people wanted to make. In the movie
that wounds up happening, and I can see a through
line of Terry's wygof and the kind of sort of
archly bitter observational humor of Ghosts World, and of his

(40:50):
documentary work. I mean, this is the guy who did
the Crumb documentary, Let's not forget. I can see that
segueing into a version of Bad Santa, which is bleakly
funny and no way trying to make its lead character huggable.
And I think he's up against the Cohen brothers and
the Weinstein brothers having different visions entirely, and so we're

(41:10):
left with this sort of mulligan stew of everybody's different
flavor profile thrown in, and then it comes down to like, well,
who's cut are you watching?

Speaker 1 (41:19):
You know? Yeah, it's it's interesting. I mean, I guess
it's hard to know where to start with this movie.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, well there's a couple of minutes left.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Oh god, Oh yeah, there's e Bilog right right.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Right, Yes, So he survives all these gunshot wounds. Willy
does and recovers kind of off screen in a hospital,
but we're seeing Thurman at home. He's opening a gift
from Willy as well as a letter which explains that
Willy is off the hook for the crimes he committed

(41:53):
because the cops shouldn't have opened fired on an unarmed
Santa and because he rated out Marcus or something.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
I was like really barely following this point. But then
there's a final beat of the movie where Thurman's bully
shows up to harass him again and Thurman, per Willie's
fatherly guidance, kicks the bully in the nuts the end

(42:24):
Merry Christmas.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
They're like, yeah, I guess that that should happen in
this movie at some point. I guess they make you
work for it.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and
we'll come back to discuss.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
We're back, okay, really quick. I found a hopefully this
IMDb user. It seems like they were thorough, but this
is my source. There is an IMDb us or who
wrote out all of the differences between the three versions
of this movie. Oh wow, okay, so thank you, thank you,
thank you so much. So that was how I sort

(43:09):
of started figuring out what I saw versus what actually
happens in the theatrical cut, which I guess we have
to sort of take his cannon, but I think that
he so just to read the end of the director's cut,
I think we are to believe that he's dead. All
scenes of Willy trying to teach the kid to stand
up for himself, including the boxing scene which Terry's Weggoff
didn't even direct, are removed. The car death scene is

(43:32):
the same as on the unrated version, which I think
is just like more violent.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
The Bernie mac One no no, the bad Santa car chase,
oh okay, when he dies and alternate car chase scene.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Also, Willy does not say this is Christmas and the
kids getting as fucking present, because this is the version
with no moral. The ending is changed to the kid
scrubbing Willy's blood off the front porch, so I think
he is cooked in the Terry's Wagoff for which is
like a version that it wouldn't be my favorite movie.
He's not my favorite director, but like, I think that

(44:07):
that at least has like there's a vision there, you know,
to like, here is this despicable piece of shit. I
would be surprised if all of the not that there
would be a lack of offensive jokes in that version,
but there is such a commercial version of these jokes
that I think we hear. I don't know, it's just
it's puzzling. Where should we start because this is obviously

(44:29):
I mean, we've talked about movies like this on the
show before. This is a movie whose objective is to
be offensive to as many people as possible, Like that
is part of why this movie exists. So it's not
shocking that it happens, but it is uh yeah, I
mean it again not my favorite and also still no
matter when that kind of movie comes out, it's very

(44:51):
reflective of like what is considered shocking and also but
like not so shocking that you can't do a huge
you know, commerci movie around it that I think would
be very different now.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
Well, I think, for instance, the whole you know, Lauren
Graham has a Santa Kink thing is a thing that
we hadn't seen in a Christmas movie up to that point.
And so just having it there, having her yell that out,
and having that be the thing that drives her character
was you know, enough of a novelty that that was like, well,

(45:23):
we're gonna do that, of course, you know. And does
it say much for her character? Does it make sense
in the larger context of who she's supposed to be
and how her relationship with him grows over the course
of the film. I mean not really. They didn't. Yeah,
they didn't give much thought to that, But I mean, yeah,
it is a thing where when you saw that add
on Gilmore Girls in two thousand and three, it was

(45:45):
shocking because you'd never heard anybody say that before, much
less America's Sweetheart, you know.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Yeah, I mean it's I guess if we're starting with her,
I mean, it doesn't even feel like a particularly long
conversation because it's like, I don't think I know enough
about her character to know if her character changes at
all throughout the movie. It seems like kind of from
the jump, she has a Santa kink, She's gonna show
up every once in a while out of context. Why

(46:11):
does she have no one in her life to spend
Christmas with? We don't know, we don't care.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
Why does she completely ignore all the times in which
Willie says something horrible, does something.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Horrible in front of a child, but she loves children?

Speaker 3 (46:23):
Like if she has a Santa kink, wouldn't this be
like a busy time of year for her? Like, wouldn't she,
you know, she'd have something lined up for her Decembers right, gorgeous?

Speaker 1 (46:33):
She should be making the round Like why Santa?

Speaker 3 (46:36):
I think it's safe to say like this. The women
in this movie are essentially an afterthoughts in terms of
their their participation in the story and in the you know,
overall character arcs of the men, like they're set dressing.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah, each woman is basically some caricature of a person
where you have like Marcus's girlfriend or wife or whatever
partner played by Lauren Tom she uh, I don't even
know if we learn her name in the movie, like
her character's name.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
And she's like she's so accomplished and you're.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
Just she's Lois.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yes, oh okay, okay, she's her characters name is Lowis.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
She's Lowess And now it doesn't make any sense, but
like she's in the Joy Luck Club. She's like a
big stage actor. Like I was just like, I hope
that they paid her well for this because this is
beneath her.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
I don't imagine they did, but we can hope. But yeah,
I mean, like it's her character is almost presented as
Marcus's sidekick, like she kind of helps with the robberies sometimes,
like she seems to be the getaway driver maybe, but
like why isn't she more integrated into the like the

(47:48):
robbery crew or not that I'm like, but I'm also like,
well maybe women should steal more.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
But I mean, if we're gonna have a robbery crew,
let's get her involved, let's get her involved.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
But mostly her character is there to display a series
of racist stereotypes and that's pretty much.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
It, yeah for her. Yeah, I mean whatever we could.
Cinema sends this to death. But like in the in
the like logic of I I don't know why Marcus
is it, like she's my main conspirator, Like why is
Beds I know that you need I guess for this
scheme to work, you need a Santa. But again, why

(48:28):
this Santa? The same I'm asking the same question as
the Lauren Graham. Why this Santa?

Speaker 3 (48:33):
Well, because he's a safe cracker. I think that's I mean,
he's not a Santa who is a safe cracker. He's
a safe cracker who pretends Santa to get inside. And
I think Lois is mainly there to sort of give
Marcus a shopping list of specific consumer items that she
wants him to take from the department store while while
Marcus is draining the safe of the cas.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Because women be shopping, maybe they truly be. And yeah,
I guess it's like I don't think it would have
changed things very much to have her like a little
more actively involved in those schemes. And I also feel
like she's well, let me know what you think. I
also feel like she's kind of there to make Marcus

(49:15):
seem like a better person, Like she serves kind of
another function where bad Santa, he can't hold down a relationship,
he's a mess, blah blah blah. Marcus says explicitly at
one point, like I am in a monogamous relationship. I'm
very happy blah blah blah. And it's like she I
think she's there as set dressing. She's there to be

(49:37):
this broad you know, stereotype, and she's also there to
like make us feel a certain way about Marcus. Like
everything about her has very little to do with her.
She's which is the story of women in broad comedies
for the most part, it's just like she's there to
tell you something about this guy, for sure. So I

(49:58):
don't know, there's another there's you know, we don't need
to go shot for shot, but there's you know a
lot of very leering POV bad Santa gazing on women's bodies.
Often that's how we meet women characters is from the
bottom up. It is his POV. But again there's like
it's not commenting on anything. If we then go on

(50:20):
to not get to know this woman at all and
she's just like ugh, or she's like I like that. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
The fact that he is he finds sort of plus
size women appealing, I think is the movie treats as
being as funny as Lauren Graham having a Santa Fetters ca.
Yeah totally, yes, yes, I can right, yeah, No.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
That's played as a joke and then bringing Octavia Spencer
into it, it just makes it even worse. Leave her
out of it.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
My takeaway from her involvement in the story. So, she
plays a sex worker named Opal, and like you mentioned, Jamie,
she's in the sequel for some reason, she's just.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
Too nice for her own good. She's in a lot
of like weirdly bad movies. It seems like to do
a favor to a friend.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
But the way that Willy is presented, basically it's like
everything that Willy does or anyone who he's involved with
or whatever, everything everything associated with him is bad because
he's Bad Santa, and so him knowing Opal, I feel
like this movie is sort of is anti sex work

(51:28):
just by virtue of like she knows him and everyone
that he knows is bad, and then she's in one
quick scene and then we never see or hear from
her again.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Yeah. There's also I think that this is only in
the Badder Santa cut which makes sense because it feels
very like why is this here. There is a cutaway
scene towards the beginning during these like eleven last months
where Bad Santa is spending all his Bad Santa money
where he brings sex worker home and then just kind

(52:00):
of like beerates her for a while and then the
phone rings and it's Marcus and he's like, guess what,
it's November. And then we cut to that and you're like, well,
I'm glad they caught that out, but it was I
think kind of solidifies your your thinking there where there's
another scene with I think a sex worker who's somehow
characterized even less we really just meet her and then

(52:21):
she's told that she smells and she sucks. So, yeah,
this is a movie written by so like getting into
the production a little bit and then we'll definitely go
back to the characters. There's a lot to talk about,
but just so Terry's Wygoff was set to direct this.
It was written by Glenn Fakara and John Recua, who

(52:43):
are a team who I believe.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
They they did I Love You, Philip Morris, which I
am a fan of.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
Actually it's really they They didn't. They did crazy stupid
love right, and then they do the thing that these
that these guys often do, which is they take a
serious turn and it kind of doesn't work. They did
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot later on. Oh and then they go
back to comedy, and they did Jungle Cruise. I've never
seen I Love You, Philip Morris. I have seen the

(53:12):
Billy Bob Thornton Bad News Bears, which is interesting in
retrospect because it sounds like that's what the Coen Brothers
kind of wanted from this movie. There were almost a
million different Bad Santas. It was almost James s. Gandelfini.
There was almost Bill Murray, it was almost Jack Nicholson,
it was almost de Niro, Like.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Well, DeNiro would go on to be Bad Grandpa, I think.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Yes, which is a far worse movie than this, which
is wild. I have not seen Bad Grandpa, but I do.
I'm like, I wonder how common that is that, Like,
if you work long enough, you're gonna be bad something
Bad Moms.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
Well it's like you know, well, yeah, no. The bad
prefix definitely got very popular for a one of the
run I was thinking about, like, yeah, turning down Bad
Santa and then doing Bad Grandpa is like when on
Connery turned down Lord of the Rings and then said
yes to Leave of Extraordinary Gentlemen. You never know, You
just never know.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Everything is a gamble. I love I feel like there's
a I can't remember what my favorite example of that is,
but yeah, So anyways, just like speaking to the all
over the place nature of the movie there, when the
sequel came out, there was a an oral history of
the first one that released that gets at what you

(54:29):
were talking about earlier. Alonzo that Tony Cox was an
actor that Terry Swagoff really had to fight for and
he sort of it sounds like there's conflicting accounts, but
that he kind of threatened to walk if he didn't
get the cast that he wanted and really went to
bat for Tony Cox and Brad Kelly, who seemed to
have a lot of love for him. Billy Bob Tharton

(54:51):
seems like maybe not as much, which brings us to
I don't know, like the less said about the Weinstein's,
the better they're involved, you've seen them. It's not chocking.
But brings us back to Marcus, who again it's like
there from scene to scene, I feel like his character
is treated very differently. There is a version of this

(55:11):
character that I think is better, but I get like
there there were this movie did have me sometimes for
like a scene or two where you're like, oh, that's interesting,
right where I don't know.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
Well, there's a base level of pragmatism of like, dude,
you're drunk. We have to keep it together if we're gonna,
you know, do this heist, and if you are like
urinating on children and having sex with women in the
dressing room, that's not gonna help us. Like, you've got
to keep it together long enough for us to do
our thing. And I think if they had focused on that,
where he's just like trying to get the job done

(55:45):
and not tolerant of you know, Willie's shenanigans, that's a character,
but they don't. They don't stay on.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
That, they don't quite commit to it. Yeah, I felt
the same way, where it's like it is an interesting
premise to me that we have Tony Cox, who is
a little person. He has been in a ton of movies,
but his character, unlike so many little people in movies,
is not defined by that quality. He is first and
foremost robbing department stores, and like it's a broad comedy,

(56:15):
it's not a huge, you know, in depth life, but.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
Like he's willing to use his status as a little
person to get the elf gigs, which right in another movie,
I think that becomes a smarter thing of like, well,
I'm a little person, you're a safe cracker. I know
we'll do this, and that becomes our stick. And I
think the fact that he is resentful of the fact
that he's spending nearly the entire movie dressed as an elf,

(56:39):
but he's doing it as a means to an end
is an interesting way to portray a little person character
that a lot of other movies weren't maybe smart enough
to do.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
I guess it's the thing that really bumps for me,
and I'd be curious what our listeners think as well,
is that it's so often I feel like every time
we get a little closer to having a fuller idea
of his character, it just like the concept of his
taking advantage of other people's assumptions about him to get
what he wants, that's an interesting premise, But then it

(57:10):
sometimes just devolves into jokes about little people that feel like,
you know, the elements of this kind of movie that
really don't work for me, where it's just like piling
it on and piling it on and piling it on
to the port where it feels like improvised, of like,
what's the worst thing you can think of? To say
about this man.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
You know, right, the movie waffles back and forth between
scenes where other characters will be talking about him and
they're not sure what language to use to describe him,
and they end up using disparaging language and using slurs,
and you know, Bernie mac finally comes in and has
to say, like, you know, the correct languages, little people.

(57:51):
And you could argue that there's commentary there kind of
in people fumbling over the right language who use and
getting it wrong and being ablest along the way, But
that gets undercut when in all of the other scenes
you have various other characters, namely Willie constantly insulting Marcus

(58:19):
and being entirely ablest toward him, and sometimes Marcus pushes
back on that and he calls him out.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
I think pretty frequently he does, which is which I did,
which again I appreciate it. Yeah, of like there's multiple
scenes where Marcus is like I think it's it's a
scene towards the end where he's like, yeah, go ahead
and say, like say something about how I'm a little person,
like you're the weakest man in the entire world, and
like that's kind of all you have on me because
I'm a person and you're a piece of shit. And

(58:49):
so it's like there are these moments of like lucidity
that you're like, oh, now we're going somewhere. But then
it like the turn that Marcus's character takes toward the
end didn't really scan for me, like totally.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
It's just sometimes it's eating its cake and having it
tube and like we're acknowledging that this is terrible, but
we're also doing it because you're going to find it funny,
you know.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Yeah, it's also a lot of Willy saying slurs and
that's played for laughs, and that's Oh, you're the audience
is supposed to laugh at that. Oh, we're supposed to
find that funny.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
So I do want to get Billy Bob Thornton credit
for not trying to make this character lovable. Yeah, Like
I think he is committed to the Zwygoff version of this,
which is that this guy is a piece of shit.
And I think there are other characters who would play
it with a wink, who would play with oh I'm
a scamp, but you love me, and Billy Bob Thornton
just feels like he is going full on no, no,

(59:38):
I am this is an alcoholic hitting rock Bottom in
a Santa suit.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Yeah, it's like that's I think that's It's like everyone
is kind of in a different movie here at different moments,
because it does feel like, I don't know's there's Billy
Bob Thornton performances I really really enjoy and like his
his whole Like we can't even get into the Billy
Bob Thornton of it all. There's just so much going
on with that guy. I also didn't realize he was
in his seventies. Now he's like also weirdly ageless in

(01:00:05):
my mind. But but yeah, it seems like he's he's
playing the version of this character who dies at the end.
He's not playing the version of this character that forms
a meaningful Christmas bond with a bullied.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
Child and.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Right right, so he Yeah, that's a good point, Like
he is playing an irredeemable piece of shit in you know,
more of like an art housey Terry's Wygoff movie, and
then it's like Frankenstein into being this other thing and
it just doesn't work. And I also, I mean, like
I don't know, there is a lot of speaking to
your point, Heitlen, a lot of ablest dated language that

(01:00:44):
was very normalized to say in a shock context in
the two thousands that now just is like does not age. Well,
it's weirdly making a comeback, and that's also horrible. But
we see that a lot. We see that, you know,
with relation to Tony Cox's character. We see that with
relation to Thermimon's character quite a bit, whether it's like

(01:01:10):
fat shaming or dropping the R word, which comedy is
in the two thousands did constantly because that was what
it was like watching a movie. Then yeah, I don't know,
it's I think we keep kind of circling back to
the same point where it's like this, if this movie
is this tone, just just kill him, just kill the guy.

(01:01:31):
But then also I'm like, there were scenes that I
was like, I like Therman Merman. I don't want to
get rid of Thurm and Merman. I think he's a
sweet kid. I want the best for him.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
What's funny about steering away from the ending in which
he dies is that it basically turns Bad Santa into
the kind of Christmas movie that people who love Bad
Santa would, on the for the most part, say they
don't like you know, if you're turning to this movie
as an alternative from the sort of sweetness and light
or from the kind of redemption arcs of you know,

(01:02:03):
it's a Wonderful life or a Christmas Carol or whatever,
then you would want that character dead. But if you don't,
and you want to see him improve and become a
better person because of the magic of Christmas or whatever,
then really you do like that kind of movie. You
just can't admit it, and so we have to dress
it up in this sort of like badass, you know,

(01:02:23):
thing that you can feel like a tough guy about.
But it's it. It has been edited to be that
movie eventually, but.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Yeah, it still wants you to like have the like
warm ish fuzzies at the end where they're like, he's okay,
you guys, He's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
It's like not too far from the narrative that we've
seen over and over as far as especially father and
Son Redemption are Christmas stories, because that's the Santa Claus.
That's Jack Frost, feminist masterpiece, Michael Keaton's Jack Frost.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
I mean Elf, even Elf, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
It's so it's so many this movie coming out the
same year as Elf is wild What a wild year
for love?

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
Actually yes, have y'all done a love actually episode?

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
It was like one of our first episodes.

Speaker 3 (01:03:12):
I would hope, So Okay, yes, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
We're due for a revisit, though, I mean, I think
it's a long time. We just watched The Family Stone
for the first time and I was I'm like, I need,
I need to like go on a walk, I need
to promise the event since the film. But but yeah,
for this one. In the theatrical cut, it seems like
and certainly in the extended cut, I mean I wrote

(01:03:37):
down tells you it's a fathers and sons movie in
record time, tells you in ad r in the opening
shot or in narration in the opening shot. And interestingly,
I've gotten in the habit of looking at some of
the top letterbox reviews, especially for broad comedies that I
don't like, because you can you can almost always find
someone's reasoning for like why this movie means a lot

(01:03:58):
to them, and I think it's interest to look into it,
and a handful of them for this movie specifically references
that opening monologue as like what really hooked them? So
I'm like, you know, probably this zygoth version of this
movie wouldn't have been commercially successful, but it would definitely
make more sense. But yeah, I mean that opening monologue

(01:04:20):
is also like paints him out to be a despicable person.
He says something racist within it. It sort of solidifies that,
like we're playing into negative stereotypes around veterans. We're playing that,
you know, certainly around addiction. That is the premise of
the movie, right. But starting the movie by being like
I was like abused by a father with anger issues

(01:04:41):
and like have gone on to live this like aimless,
self destructive life and I hate Christmas but I'm Santa,
it like sets you up for the Weinstein version of
the movie of like what his I mean, it's also
the moral of Jurassic Park, where it's like this the
Crouch needs to learn how to be a father yesterday.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
Which sounds like the Zwygoff cut has like no interest
in whatsoever. Nope, Yeah, I don't know. I'm like, I
guess I prefer like I don't really prefer one over
the other. But seeing them sort of Frankenstein together is
a is a very weird experience.

Speaker 3 (01:05:21):
I mean, sadly, I guess this is an example in
which like studio notes and interference do make a movie
more successful, because you're right. I think the Zwygoth version
of Bad Santa would have been like an art house
curio and it would you know, would have a tiny
cult that watched every year, But it would not have
become what it became because again I think it's it

(01:05:42):
is a movie that stealthily is delivering the kind of
Christmas movie that Bad Santa fans would claim that they
were too cool for.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
Yeah, everyone secretly like I feel like wants the Grouch
to reform. It's the screw.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
The Grinch is hard to grow three sizes, right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Jim Christian for Michael Caine screwge to look at cratch
It and be like, here's a Christmas goose.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
But it's just like beyond the pale here because the
original version of this character is kind of irredeemably horrible.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Well that's the thing, Like whatever, if there has to
be a male redemption story like a fine I would
there have rather men always redeem themselves than a bad
man go on staying horrible for the rest of his life. Right, Yeah,
so like in realized like how it always happens in

(01:06:38):
real life. But the movie is just so riddled with
slur after slur after problematic joke after reductive stereotype after.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
You know it, like, which is like the two thousands
right in comedy.

Speaker 2 (01:06:53):
It's just it can't. I mean, there's we could get
into the representation of alcoholism, the agism with the grandmother
character being so oblivious that she doesn't notice that an
adult man with a balaclava is in her house about
to rob her everything.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
Like yeah, I mean, it's like it's so deeply of
its time and like ven some and so to be asked,
I think kind of then Anne now to be like,
we love this guy, he's a lovable rogue, Like I don't.
It's sell It's the it's the rule of if you

(01:07:33):
were her child when you saw this movie, I'm sure that,
like it is something that you carry a little torch
for in your heart. But yeah, having seen it for
the first time, for this, I'm like, I just I
simply cannot, I cannot participate in loving this movie. But
Bernie Mack did still manage to make me laugh and
basically every scene he was in I mean fair, that's

(01:07:56):
just kind of the rule of Mac.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
I'll touch on the sequel really quick because I'm like, well,
if I watched it, because you've both seen it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Yes, I saw it when it came out, not since,
so I don't really remember it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
I watched it yesterday, so it's quite fresh.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Okay. Tell me.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
The main reason I wanted to watch it is because
it came out in twenty sixteen, and this is around
the time that movies started to be less overtly problematic
and slightly more conscious about how things were being represented
and what language was being used and all of that
kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
Our show came out this week.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Exactly, so I was curious if you fixed everything we actually.

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
Fixed Well, I don't know, take a survey. I don't
know that we've made much of a dent.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
But I was curious if this sequel scaled back on
any of the ableism, racism, fat phobia, agism, et cetera
that we see in the original movie, because I feel
like you will see sequels that come out like whatever, ten, fifteen,
twenty years later that will sort of update whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
The story the world.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Yeah, things feel slightly updated and slightly adjusted for the time.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
Bad Santa hates woke. I just know he hates woke.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
This movie did not do that. This movie doubled down
and even added some stuff like it was just as problematic,
if not more than the two thousand and three original movie.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
Which is I mean, I think the only thing that
is like, I don't know, I mean, yeah, I didn't
see it. I had it up and I was like,
I cannot press play it, Like I just can't do it.
But clearly an interest in this style of comedy in
the mid twenty tens wasn't there, because this Is the

(01:09:52):
sequel did not do well. It didn't even make its
budget back.

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
And I'm and not that I'm in any way defending it,
but I think, of course, if you're gonna make a
bad Sant sequel, you're gonna think, well, what do people
love about the first one? What is it that keeps
them coming back and rewatching it every year? The easy
answer is, oh, well, the shocking humor and the you know,
the the sort of bleak point of view and the
no holds barred offensiveness. You know. So now let's have

(01:10:17):
Kathy Bates say all that stuff. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
Yeah, oh yeah, I guess that that is the twenty
sixteen twists. They're like, now, women are horrible. We wrote
a woman character and she's awful.

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
You're like equity, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
Also, Kathy Bates plays his mother and she's only seven
years older than Billy Bob Thornton.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
So that's the it's the Angela Lansbury condition, you know. Yeah,
she spent the entire nineteen sixties playing the moms of
people she was like less than a decade older than Yeah,
urion Canada. Yeah, I'll fall down. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
Why, it's just like, can a woman just have a
Bob in peace without it being a big, a whole thing?
Evidently not? Well, thank you for watching Bad Santa, both
of you and it's best of but also Lauren Lauren
Graham didn't come back. She was like, I'm correct you No.

(01:11:16):
I just this year I read both of her memoirs
because I am a millennial woman, and I had a
great time. She's a really great funny writer.

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
Nice to check those out. She's quite good. Uh. In
the remake of the Best Christmas Pageant Ever that came
out last year.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
Oh, I haven't seen Pete Holmes movie.

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):
Yes, because she she narrates and so, you know, which
gives it a little Christmas story flavor.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
And then she was in Twinless this year, which I
didn't see, but I know you did. Caitlyn.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Yes, I loved that movie.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
And then she's in one of the Colleen Hoover slop
movies that I'm kind of play. She plays Mommy question Mark,
probably in a movie called Remind Him. I'm just like
the Colling Hoover movie is. It's I will never see them,
but I do kind of delight in seeing the trailers

(01:12:09):
aggressively shoveled at me, where it's like, nice, try nice, triasshole.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
You're not getting me in that room. There's a few
other things with this movie, like specific things that we
haven't touched on that you know, we don't need to
necessarily go into a lot of detail on. I'm thinking
especially of the scene in which the random man from
the bar, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
Tax the homophobia jumps care.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
Yeah, that's a character played by A. J. Nadou, who
plays Samir from Office Space. I was like, oh my god,
that's Samir. But anyway, the scene is so bizarre.

Speaker 1 (01:12:48):
Also, the character is named Hindustani troublemaker yeah, which is like,
if there was any question of how much regard the
script has for the character.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
There there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
But it manages to be everything at once. I mean,
it manages to be so many horrible stereotypes that it's
like almost impressive that it's like homophobic, it is hostile
to any brown person who's ever existed. It's like, it's
just so I does feel like that. Yeah, I was like,
what is it?

Speaker 2 (01:13:16):
I think it's supposed to be a joke about like
repressed homo eroticism, which is manifesting as homophobia in the character.
But I'm just like I could barely make sense of it.
It's such a bizarre scene.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
The character never comes back. It is based off of
a look in the bar.

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
It's just bizarre. So it's a it's a handful of
things like that throughout the movie, on top of all
the just slurs that are ablest, racist, sexist, fat phobic, homophobics,
et cetera. And I and and it doesn't pass.

Speaker 3 (01:13:53):
The bechd.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
And it doesn't even come close to passing the Bechdel test,
so we can got to just skip over that. Usually
there's at least a spirited debate going on in the
comments of Bechdel test dot com, but here for this one,
everyone's pretty like, no, Nope. Lauren Graham touches clorus Leachman's foot,

(01:14:16):
and that is that is as far as we got.
So yeah, So let's get to the more important metric,
and perhaps the most important metrics, the Bechdel Cast Nipple scale.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
Yes, the scale where we rate the movie zero to
five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens.
I will give this movie zero nipples. Can you imagine that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
It's kind of an easy one. I'm going to join
you with zero nipples. Look, the movie got some chuckles
out of me, but.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
This is a sinister movie.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
It does have a bit of a dark aura. I
would say it's again, it's like if Terry's Wygoff had
been able to commit to his vision, it's still wouldn't
be a movie I liked, but it would be a
movie that made sense.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
But maybe that was saying something that was like trying
to make a statement. But this just ends up being
a statementless.

Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
Because he really, like I mean, outside of I mean,
I guess the change that takes place with him has
to do with Thurman Merman, but it doesn't have to
do with anyone else. And there are so many characters
that it's bizarre that it doesn't have to do with
anyone else. And I guess we touched on this, but
my last thing said because I have no nipples to award,

(01:15:33):
is that I felt like they really sold out Marcus's
character based on who I thought he was. I felt betrayed.
I was like this, he is so like I mean,
he's not a genius, mastermind, criminal, but he is at
least thoughtful in how these things committed to. Yeah, so
for him to randomly murder someone who people are certainly

(01:15:57):
going to miss, it just felt like, so.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
That's sloppy, that's sloppy work.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
It was a sloppy He's presented as.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Being the far more competent of the two between him
and Willie. He's on top of stuff, he's making a
list and checking it twice. You might say he truly is,
and then suddenly he's like a murderer, Like where did
this come from? Is very bizarre, it's something else. It's yeah,

(01:16:26):
so yeah, zero nipples boo to this movie. Alonso, How
about you? What do you? What say you?

Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:16:33):
Well, if we're talking the scale is purely about intersectional feminism.
I think a zero was the only way to go
if we were rating out on like you know, a
poisonous missiletoe displays or you know, empty cans of bud light.
It might be something else, but yeah, on the nipple scale,
it is a It is a big goose egg.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Indeed. Well, thank you so much for joining us for
this discussion.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
What a holiday treat. Where can people follow you online?
Check out your podcasts and your books and everything else.

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):
Well, you can read my reviews of current films at
the film Verdict at the film verdict dot com. And
I'm on various podcasts. My husband Dave White and I
do the show Linoleum Knife, which just celebrated its fifteenth anniversary. Right,
thank you. Yeah, we are the literal gray old men
of movie podcasting. Also, you can hear me on Breakfast

(01:17:28):
All Day with Christy Lemire. The two of us used
to do a show called What the Flick, but now
we've started We've had Breakfast all Day going for several
years on YouTube, the Maximum Fun show Maximum Film with
Drea Clark and Kevin Avery, and I pop in regularly
to Deck the Hallmark to talk about Chris's movies of
various stripes. I'm the easiest person on earth to Google,

(01:17:49):
but I'm a Duraldi on Blue Sky and Alonzo dot
Duraldi at Instagram. And my new book is the revised
and updated second edition of Have Yourself a Movie, Little Christmas.
It's available wherever you buy books online, in person at
your local library. It's a book, book and an ebook.
Pick one up this holiday.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
Season, please do, Aliza, thank you so much. I a
longtime fan of your work, so it's like its cool
and surreal to talk to you about this perfect movie.

Speaker 3 (01:18:15):
No notes. If y'all haven't done Carol yet, you know,
I think there'd be a lot more to dig into.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
We have done Carol.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
You have done Carol?

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):
Okay, yeah, yeah, that is That is the That is
the Christmas movie that does follow. You can find us
in all the regular places, mostly on Instagram. You can
also join our Patreon aka Matreon, where for five dollars
a month, you can listen to two bonus episodes every
month and also vote on what movies you want to

(01:18:45):
hear about. So this this month, the Matrons have voted
on the Family Stone and The Original Black Christmas. So
if you want to hear those episodes or our back
catalog of nearly two hundred episodes, I think now sign
up in the Lincoln description give.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
Yourself a little holiday gift, give someone else a little
holiday gift of the Bechdel Cast Matreon And.

Speaker 1 (01:19:10):
With that, let's either die on the front doorstep and
or go on to live a long, healthy life. Ho
Ho ho bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,
hosted and produced by Me Jamie Loftus and.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
And edited by Caitlyn Dorante. Ever heard of them?

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
That's me and our logo and merch and all of
our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftis, ever
heard of her?

Speaker 1 (01:19:48):
Oh my God? And our theme song, by the way,
was composed by Mike Kaplan.

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
With vocals by Katherine Vosskrasinski.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only
Aristotle Asve.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash
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