Captain America: The First Avenger

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Ephyn best
start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, Caitlin, yes, Jamie, do you want to go to
a dance?

Speaker 3 (00:23):
Yes? I do. I've never danced with a woman before,
though I don't know how to do it.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Maybe because you're Chris Evans head on Jeremy Strong's body.
That's kind of my things difficult. Did you see that
Jeremy Strong was almost the body double no for yes, yes,
for short King Steve Rogers. They almost composited Chris Evans
first of all, very large seven foot tall man head

(00:49):
onto Jeremy Strong's live body, and that would have been historic.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Is Jeremy Strong small? He is?

Speaker 2 (00:58):
He's Jeremy small, I think, and by small, I mean
I think five to seven. Because I did. I went
so deep on the body double here because it looked
so like the most too. There's I mean, the most
twenty eleven thing about this to me, because the military
industrial complex is timeless.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Oh, of course, the.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Most twenty eleven thing to me is a lot of
the graphics, and specifically Steve Rogers one point. Oh, I
could not. I could not. Every time you see him
from a new angle, you're like, who is this?

Speaker 3 (01:31):
It's really bizarre to look at Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
It cracked me up. Let's see how tall Jeremy Strong
is and then add one inch because I think that
that's usually how that works with celebrity heights. Sure, sure,
he's five to ten, so let's say five eight five Okay, right,
so yeah, and then and then Chris Evans is I
don't even god knows four hundred feet tall. No, he's
six feet Oh you're telling me, Chris Evans that I

(01:56):
don't understand. I know that the body double they went
with not immediately like talk about men's bodies for like
twenty minutes. We're objectifying men. I think it's we're objectifying men.
And I'm not short shaming anyone. If you're a long
time listener of the show, I love a short king.
But the composite looks so bizarre.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
No, it's the effects that's the problem.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
It's it's Benjamin Button gone worse. It's so weird. Yeah,
but yes, his actual shout out to his uh to
not Jeremy Strong who was the body double who is
five to seven, and Chris Evans Giant Head.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, the body double was Leander Deeny.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, who plays a bartender in one of the scenes,
which I have a fact I tried to get excited about,
but unfortunately everything about this movie is so boring. Welcome
to the Bechtel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
My name is Caitlin Drante. This is our podcast where
we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. Yes, I
feel like, look, if you don't know what that is,
listen to another episode, look it up. Oh, there's just
so much to get into today coming in to.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Sorry, and also, I mean, let's just get it away,
get it done. At the top, this movie doesn't pass
the Bechdel test, so it's not even really that's not
really what our show is about. And if you came
here to find that out, guess what grow up. To
no one's surprise, it does not pass the Bechdel test,
and I think kind of bears through that spirit throughout
the film. But we are talking about Captain America. The

(03:31):
first Avenger twenty eleven. The reason we're talking about that
quick plug is because we polled our Patreon aka Matreon
audience because around this time of year, although we are
not Fourth of July heads ourselves, for maybe obvious reasons, Helena,
we tend to cover a piece of either satire on

(03:55):
America or American propaganda. So we put up a list
of options for our matrons. I was really hoping that
Doctor Strangelove would pull through, but unfortunately, and Shadow to
our matrons, thank you so much. Five dollars a month
gives you access to two new episodes a month with

(04:16):
just Caitlin and me, and a back catalog of over
two hundred episodes. Wow. And the amazing thing about our
matrons and I totally understand, is that they will often
vote for a movie they know we will hate and
have a lot to say about, which I suspect is
why we are today talking about Captain America the first Avenger.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Because I mean, this poll was chaos, second chaos, It
was chaos. We put up five movies, but originally we
were going to do an American tale, but neither of
us could get through it, so we were like, never mind,
pass maybe another time.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, we just did Land Before Time, and we're just like,
I think we've hit our Don Blue quota.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
For the year. Yeah, see you next year, Don exactly.
So among the five movies that we posted were Captain America,
which obviously won the poll, which is why we're doing
it today. But then there was also Team America World Police,
and that was strange we were rooting for and that
I was rooting for Doctor Strangelove. I would have also
been very happy doing Doctor Strangelove. All three of these

(05:18):
movies came within a few votes of each other. It
was the closest race for first place on the Matreon
I think I've ever seen.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call it for next year.
We're well, I mean even we could do it on
the Matreon if we wanted, We could just do those
two next year. True, but I do think unfortunately, while
it's the movie I was least excited about, it is. Yeah,
I think the reasons that I'm not excited about it
are also what make it interesting for discussion. True, because

(05:47):
this is fairly early in the what would become a
very painful for many decade of Marvel release after Marvel
release that has only in the last I think like
three years, stopped paying dividends for the Disney Corporation. So

(06:08):
before we get into this, I mean, we're gonna be
talking a lot about American propaganda and American symbols. Yeah,
which is something that because it's also Hot Dog season,
has been heavily on my mind recently because I keep
getting emails about it. But the thing I just wanted
to make note of before we start, because we talk

(06:31):
about the show on the show often, you know that
things that I'm assuming most of our listeners kind of
share our views on, which is that America is a failed,
violent colonial experiment that gets kind of worse by the day,
and we talk about myriad reasons as to why that is.
But a story that has been on my mind a
lot this last week and is one that if you're

(06:52):
not familiar with it or you haven't seen it coming
up in your feed, I would highly encourage you to
get to know more about is the Prairie Land Defendants.
I think it is like a story that is starting
to be discussed more, but is you know, very indicative
of where we're at right now. So when we're talking
about captain America. We're talking about what does America mean

(07:13):
right now? It means this, which is protesters anti ice
protesters specifically who were protesting last fourth of July. A
handful of them have been given essentially anywhere ranging from
thirty years to life one hundred years in prison for
anything ranging from protesting and resisting police violence to literally

(07:38):
just making a leftist zine. That is so chilling to me.
There is a defendant, Elizabeth Sodo, who was sentenced to
thirty years in prison for a protest she didn't even attend,
for making an anarchist zine. The FBI rated her and

(07:59):
her husband's home finding finding as you can imagine, literally nothing,
including a zine that was like an ari Aster fan
zine and poetry, you know, just things that you know,
someone who has this literature or you do. It is
you know, been explicitly said in their sentencing that this

(08:20):
is being done to make an example of protesters. It
is an attempt to reclassify any level of resistance. I'm
not even talking about particularly radical resistance, any level of
resistance as an act of terrorism, and of course you know,
classifying Antifa as terrorists. Bear that out if you are

(08:41):
sentencing anti fascists to life in prison. What does that
make you? All things that I know most of our
listeners are are well aware of and fairly engaged with.
But yes, because we're talking American propaganda today, you know,
is this the direct result of Captain America. No, but
it's asking the question what ideals is Captain America holding up?

(09:05):
And that changes with time, but I don't think it
necessarily gets better. So that's my little soap box for
this week. We'll leave a link to more information. There's
some great reporting from Lex mcmahnimon in The Guardian about

(09:25):
this big fan of their work, highly recommend you check
their work out. And yes, there's so much more I
could say, but I will just leave it at that. Yeah,
and well that's Captain America.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Let's do it. Thank you for sharing all of that. Jamie.
It's real bleak out there and the irony that like
this movie is all about. Well, we have to fight
the Nazis, we have to fight fascism. Forgetting that the
US has always been a fascist country.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Well, I mean I don't think it's forgetting, omitting.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
Omitting, refusing to acknowledge.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's It's so tricky because it's like, yeah, hard,
hard to argue with a character who is you know,
whose original idea was what if Hitler got punched in
the face And you're like, Okay, I'm listening, Okay, I'm listening. Great,
great idea, but there's a lot going on.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
We'll get into it, Yes, we'll get into it. But Jamie,
what is your relationship with Captain America? The first Avenger
slash boy Captain America? In general?

Speaker 2 (10:29):
I think I saw this in theaters. I honestly am
not sure. I was trying to go through this with
Grant last night. Like my Marvel history is so all
over the place. Most of the movies I have seen
in the Marvel universe were watching them for the Bechdel cast.
But I do think this was early enough in the

(10:50):
Marvel run that this felt like intriguing enough to give
a shot, or like maybe I was just bored because
it came out in this summer. I vaguely remember this
coming out. I think I saw it, I did not
really retain any of it, and I certainly did not
return for any of the sequels. So yeah, I mean
this truly, like outside of even if we're like stepping

(11:13):
back from the like propaganda element of it because you know,
I saw Superman last year. I yeah, I will, you know,
if it seems interesting, I will check it out.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
And I think that movie had some interesting things to say.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
I think that that movie was saying something. You know,
it's like it in a blockbuster. It's only ever gonna
say so much. But I'm like, I'm willing to take
the journey. But even outside of that, I just like,
this is the exact kind of movie that is just
like for me, my eyes are just gonna absolutely glaze.
So I apologize if there's plot point in this movie

(11:50):
that I'm like, uh what, because I just found it
so hard to pay attention to. It's like, yeah, just
not for me. With all due respect, I know that
a lot of people have like nostalgia for this movie.
It seems like one of the I mean, it's definitely
less boring than the Marvel movies that were coming out
ten years after this, But that is like a very

(12:11):
low bar to clear. Sure, yeah I didn't Yeah, I
didn't like it, but but now I've seen it at
least once, but maybe maybe also maybe more, I will say,
you know what, Hugo Weaving ripping his face off. Oh
my gosh, that woke me back up. I kept, I kept,
I tried to. I truly, I've I've watched this movie

(12:33):
at night. I watched it in the morning. I tried
it in the afternoon. Nothing could keep me awake. But
Hugo Weaving taking his face off.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
That got me.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
That got my ass.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
Hugo Weaving ripping his face off and turning into Hugo
Weaving with red skull makeup on was really shocking. I
didn't remember that happening. I had seen this movie before,
but I similarly kind of didn't remember anything about it.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
It's also like, even if you liked this movie when
it came out, there were just so many movies that
at some point they have to start blurring. I forgot
vegas of Aastian stan.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
Is in this Yeah, yeah, he's he's a guy. He's
becomes a pretty big part of the MCU.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yes, I knew that. I just didn't know he went
back to like the beginning. Yeah, I did not know
that Stanley Tucci was a part of the MCU for
fifteen minutes. That was news to me. I also this era,
I'm very glad Stanley Tucci moved on from this era
of like I feel like in the like late twenty
early twenty tens, he's like, what if I looked a

(13:36):
little scruffy, And I'm like, that's not that's not where
he succeeds. I feel like this aesthetic for him, the
lovely Bones character, don't even get me started. I'm like,
Stanley Tucci, I need you to play a lovely man.
I need you to give me Julie and Julia Devilwar's prana.
That's where you live for me.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
I agree, Yeah, yeah, I did not remember his presence
in this movie, so I guess. Yeah. My history with
it is I didn't see it in theaters. I would
go on to see most MCU movies in theaters, but
because this was one of the earlier ones, and it
was before I even realized that they were building out

(14:18):
a cinematic universe. Sure, I had no interest in Captain
America as a character as a superhero. I was like,
what the fuck is this? I don't care. I think
conceptually Captain America is the worst, most boring Marvel hero.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
I yeah, I've done some I will say, light research
on his history, and I feel like it's the same
reason that it's like hard to make Superman a fun
character to watch, where it's like he's just.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
I agree to.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Like, he's just kind of featureless. I don't know, I'm
who's your favorite superhero? If you're like, even if you're
like compartmentalized your politics and blah blah blah, who's your
I'm still I'm still missus spider Man.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
I'm big on spider Man as well. I enjoy Batman
in some of the movies. Okay, I mean I have
two superhero movie tattoos. One of them is from Batman
Returns and one of them is a Spider Verse movie.
So I'm not like I like a superhero movie. I've
always been like a you know, big action movie head.

(15:26):
I don't have the same affinity for the MCU as
many people do, but I've seen almost all of them.
I see most of them in theaters, with a few
exceptions for boycott reasons that I'll go into later. But yeah, yeah,
I have engaged lightly with the MCU. But when this

(15:47):
movie came out, I was just like Captain America, who Pass?
So I didn't see it until I don't know, maybe
four or five years later, because by then there were
other like the MCU starting to really be built out.
So I was like, Okay, I guess if I want
to remain culturally relevant, I have to see these movies.

(16:08):
So I started to go back and watch the ones
I hadn't seen before. But anyway, that was the only
other time I had seen this. I had seen this movie,
So it's been about a decade or more since I've
watched it. I forgot most things about it, okay, And
there was a lot that I didn't realize would be

(16:29):
present that we would have to discuss on this episode.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, it is. It is a pretty intense one, and
I guess for listeners that are expecting a complete, full
deep dive on Captain America, we're doing this episode on
a fairly quick turnaround due to the poll of it all,
so we won't get into everything. But I think that
for listeners of the show that sort of want our
take on how this presents America an American propaganda, we

(16:57):
hope you will leave satisfied. Yeah, I feel like you
could write a whole thesis on I mean, there's so
there's so many books about Captain America. I think a
lot of like if if I thought you were more
interesting might be interesting to me, But I mean I
am very interested in you know whatever, like American symbolism

(17:18):
and selling, you know how basically the how colonial products
are are sold back to people, and Captain America is
a part of that. I just it's not one that
was ever designed to work for me, right, but but
let's let's get into it. Let's get into it because
this movie was, while not as financially successful as I

(17:40):
would have expected for something that became so big, definitely
has a massive cultural impact, specifically this version of the character.
Because there are many versions of the character, some of
which have more complexity than others. This one, you know,
they have the cooperation of the Pentagon, so yeah, you know,

(18:02):
don't well, I mean we've talked about that many times,
but very relevant to today. So let's get into it.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Yes, let's take a quick break first, and then we'll
come back for the recap. And we're back, Okay. Here
is the story of Captain America, the First Avenger. We

(18:29):
open on present day, somewhere in the Arctic question mark, sure,
a strange ship or something has been discovered. It's lodged
in the ice, and inside some guys discover Captain America's
famous shield. Then we smash cut to Norway nineteen forty two.

(18:54):
We meet Johann Schmidt played by Hugo Weaving. He is
an SS officer and head of Hydra, the rogue science
division of the Nazi Party, and he busts into some
kind of fortress and steals the tests erect, which becomes

(19:15):
very relevant in other MCU movies.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
I can't even with the test arract. I honestly like
the second he opened a box, like because at first
it's it's kind of engaging, it's kind of fine, and
for me, the second the box is open and it's
a glowy blue thing, You're like, and this is where
the movie will leave me and never get me back
because I just hate it. Oh my god. I mix

(19:41):
up the tests eract, which I'm vaguely aware of, because
doesn't that remain like a thing the whole time?

Speaker 3 (19:47):
Pretty much? They keep like losing it and needing to
go back and find it or something I've done.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
Okay, I remember that it's like relevant at least in
other ones that I've seen, or it's I'm pretty sure
it's in Captain Marvel maybe. Anyways, I don't know. Anyways,
I always confuse it with the avatar version of it,
which is an obtainium. Oh their secret goo. Anytime there's

(20:14):
like a secret goo, I'm just like, ah, yeah, yeah,
you are reminded that ultimately, and this isn't even necessarily
like a fault of the storytelling, but it's like, ultimately,
these stories are written for children, and that's why there's
all sorts of mysterious goos, and I just cannot be
convinced to take them seriously.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
Look, I don't mind a secret goo. In fact, I
might even go so far as to say I like
a secret goo.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
I'm more of an ooze girl. I'm personally no, this
is yeah, the plot goo. I just I just I
can't do it. But sure, that's okay, that's okay.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah. So John Schmidt comes in and steals the Tesseract.
We cut to the US. It's still nineteen forty two,
where the rest of the movie take place. We meet
Steve Rogers played by Chris Evans.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Sort of Evans like by Chris Evans head and Leander
Deni's body. I will not I promise, I will stop
harping on this, but I gasped I gasped. It was
so twenty eleven. I was trying to like piece together.
I didn't look up any behind the scenes footage because
I kind of liked my version better. Words how I

(21:27):
pictured they shot it. I picture first they shoot the
whole scene with Chris Evans balancing his head on a
pile of tennis balls, and then they shoot the whole
scene again with Leander Deny wearing like kind of a
gimp mask that is like covered in chroma key, and
then they're like, yeah, we'll figure it out.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
I like it.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's how they shoot it all twice, and then it
still looks horrible. I know that that's definitely not how
they did it, but it made me laugh so much
to think about Sebastianstan doing the scene horror twice, not
Sebastian Stan being horrible.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
I like him, but he's in Itania for crying out loud.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
He's literally in Itania, and no one talks about that enough.
It's an underrated performance.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
Hmm, yeah, he is so. Anyways, Steve Rogers is trying
to enlist in the military because he really wants to
fight for his country in World War Two, but he's
scrawny and chronically ill and he can't fight for shit
because he gets in a fist fight with a guy
in an alley and gets absolutely pummeled.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
He gets in a fight for being a fucking loser
at a movie there. I mean, I guess they're both
being losers, but he's just like, wait, man, America's awesome. Man.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, he should have had his ass kicked.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
He should have had his ass kick I agree, yeah, yeah,
but anyway, Steve's best friend, Bucky Barnes played by Sebastian
stan comes to his rescue. Now, Bucky has successfully enlisted
and he gets shipped off tomorrow, while Steve Rogers has
tried five different times to enlist but keeps failing the

(23:08):
medical physical exam. Stephen Bucky then go to like a
World's Fair science expo kind of thing hosted by.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
More propaganda stuff and also very funny bad CGI. They
look like they like visit a screensaver.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
Yeah it looks really phony, but this event is hosted
by Stark Industries. We meet Howard Stark aka Tony Stark's father.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Who I was genuinely shocked. That's not Rammy Malick, you're
telling you, that's.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
You don't recognize him as Dominic Cooper of Mama Mia Fame.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
I had to be reminded and I was like, Okay,
I actually I do remember him as Dominic Cooper of
Mama Mia Fame. Now, I guess I don't really associate
Mama Mia with men who aren't stealing Scar's cart.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
Well, Pierce Brosnan Firth erasure.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, I guess if I'm ranking my Papa Pias, I'm
going stellin Pierce Colin, I think, But I forgot Dominic
Cooper's in it. But yeah, I just he looks I think.
It's also like the way I just he looks so
much like Ramy Mallagan to me in this movie.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
But there's a resemblance, you know, it is not him. Yeah, Anyway,
he's there doing shit. The whole thing with Howard Stark
is that he's this brilliant mechanical engineer. But Steve isn't
paying attention to any of that. He's so distracted because
he wants to fight for his country so bad it's
consuming his every thought. And then Stanley Tucci enters the

(24:37):
movie and overhears Steve telling Bucky about how much he
wants to fight for his country, and then Stanley Tucci
approaches him. His character's name is doctor Erskine, and he
works for a special science division of the US military, and.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
He wants to shoot Steve full of plot goo different
plot gou not test erect well, because the test reactor
is a solid.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
It's a cube.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Versus it's a little shy. It's a light bulb in
a box.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yes, yes, yes it. Meanwhile, doctor Erskine has a serum
that is way more, way closer to plot goo. I
would say he has the go. Okay, he's got the
he's got the go. And also he it's Stanley Tucci
doing an accent, which I also did not see coming.
Every everything about Stanley Tucci was a surprise to me.

(25:30):
In this movie. He's doing a German accent, as is
Hugo Weaving. Yes, and you love to see it.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
I guess, I guess shrug, I guess I'm ambifalent towards it.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Right, Okay, So doctor Erskine is so impressed that Steve
is that dedicated to trying to enlist that he approves
Steve's enlistment form right. Then we cut to Hydra's secret
layer in the mountains, Schmidt and his associate, doctor Zola

(26:05):
played by Toby Jones, put the Tesseract through some machine
and are able to harness an incredible amount of energy
from it, which they can use to develop advanced weapons
and likely win the war.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Did this scene remind you of I Frankenstein. I couldn't
stop thinking about I Frankenstein during this scene.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Well, I haven't seen it nearly as many times as you,
so it's like not in my brain at all. But
it did remind me of the Spider Man two scene
where yes, doc Oc is like precious tritium blah blah blah,
and then he becomes doc.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Ok that's true. Yeah, I was thinking of the I
Frankenstein scene where where Bill Nyhey brings the rat back
to life.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Sure, real eye Frankenstein will remember.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
Yeah, sorry about it.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
That's okay.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
I'm a fake fan, fake fan anyway. Okay, So cut
to Steve at basic training or something. Yeah, the commanding
officer is Tommy Lee Jones. I'm sure his character has
a name, but I don't care about that. Yeah. He
says that at the end of the week they're going
to choose one man to turn into a super soldier.

(27:24):
And we're like.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Right right by.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
Also, Agent Peggy Carter played by Haley Atwell, is also there. Yes,
she supervises all of the operations for this science division.
What that means exactly, we don't know. It's so vague.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yes, and again for comic book heads, we are just
covering the version of Peggy that appears in this film.
I know that she had like her own television show,
but we're just going to talk about Peggy and like
her comic conception versus this movie.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yes. Then we get a montage of Steve and the
others training, and Steve is not good at all of
the physical things like running and push ups.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, he's getting bullied, even though the reason that he
says he wants to serve in the American military is
that he hates bullies. And you're just like, yeah, yeah,
maybe you are a good candidate. Grow up right.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
So, yeah, he is not good at all of the
physical strength and endurance tests. But what he lacks in
brute strength he makes up for in smarts and courage.
So he is the one who is selected to become
the aforementioned super soldier via this serum, a plot goo

(28:54):
that doctor Erskine had developed. The doctor also mentions that Schmidt,
the Hydra guy, had also taken the serum in the past,
but it was before the serum had been perfected. And
also Schmidt is evil and deranged, so there were some
side effects when he took the serum. And we'll put

(29:17):
a pin in that.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
We'll put a pin in that. I will say. I
was like the the like visual representation of this sequence.
I was like, huh, that's like more visually interesting than
ninety percent of Marvel movies.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
There.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
It's like this weird montage oh okay, of Hugo weaving like,
you know, getting getting gooey.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
Yeah. I thought that was hideous to look at.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
I mean, I don't think it was beautiful to look at,
but it wasn't like a blobby screensaver, which is how
I think of Marvel movies aesthetically, Just like a random
void where someone's screaming my father. That's most of them.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
Sure, yeah, yeah, okay, So an agent Carter and Steve
head to a facility for him to have the super
Soldier serum injected into him, and maybe the two of
these characters are flirting a little bit along the way.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
Yeah, And then when the procedure is over. Steve is
a foot taller, he's jacked, his cells are really good.

Speaker 4 (30:25):
Now, I was I wish that in a in a
cooler world, in a more cronin burgie world, he should
have come out like covered in Now I'm being pro goo,
he should have come out covered in some sort of
birth goo.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
He's too smooth when he comes out.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Yeah, and he's also wearing a shirt that fits him perfectly.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
In spite of going in with Jeremy Strong's body. Like
it's just interesting, like it's yeah, I mean, I get
it's it's just a movie moment, but I was like, man,
he's too smooth. Give me something to give me, give
me something to consider.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yeah, you want him to be covered in placenta or something.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, I want to be reminded that this was an
extremely painful thing, which is sort of reference. But also
I thought that was very funny where he's screaming in pain.
He says no, no, it's a it okay, it okay,
and they're like, okay, cool.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Keep going. Yeah. Well, anyway, he emerges and he is
sexy as hell, and Agent Carter is like, oh the
oh buh. Yeah, but there are spies in their midst
clearly Hydra minions who Schmidt had sent to steal the
serum and murder doctor Erskine.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
But it's important to remember that at this point in history,
at this consequential point in history, the Minions were in
the cave in the North Pole. The Minions. A lot
of people say, why aren't the minions in this movie?

Speaker 3 (31:54):
People keep asking that.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
And it's because canonically they were in the cave, so
they were not involved in either world War that we
know of.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
I wonder if that because they're in like either an
Arctic or Antarctic cave. I wonder, yeah, if it's near
wherever Steve Rogers ends up.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
I want I do you know, I really hope for
the Minions that they that they do not. I mean,
they wouldn't fuck with Captain America. He's so boring and
he's too good.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
The Minions only evil.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
That's like, I mean, he's not even I don't know,
Captain America isn't even good, but he's definitely not like
Minion grade. Because the Minions they choose evil rulers, but
they also choose guys with like charisma and also just
people with charisma. Let's not forget scarlet overcoat.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
Sure, anyway, do you don't You don't think that Chris
Evans has Riz as Captain America in this movie.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
I think Chris Evans has Riz as a person. I
don't think he has Risk as Captain America. I find
Captain America is like un fixably boring.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Okay, So where we differ there, I guess is that
I find again, I find Captain America as a concept
really fucking boring. But I will say I generally enjoy
him in the movies that he's in, which is so
many of them interesting, not as much as I enjoy
other characters. Sure, and I do not enjoy these movies
from a Bechdel cast point of view. But if I'm

(33:23):
just watching them for entertainment value, I'm not having a
bad time, I think.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
If I'm choosing, I mean, I think it's hard to
outdo Robert Downey Junior in charisma, and I definitely enjoy.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
I enjoy Tom Holland Spider Man.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
I've never seen Tom holland Spider Man.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
They're quite good.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
I'm sure he's good. I'm sure he's good. I just
haven't seen it.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
Anyway, there are spies there are hydrospies, so Steve goes
after them, and because he's so strong and fast, now
he's able to defeat them. And now this science division
of the US military knows that Hydra is a big

(34:07):
threat to them, so they make plans to go after Hydra,
and Steve wants to go with them, but they're like, no,
you can't because of reasons, right, So instead they have
Steve become Captain America, which is an Uncle Sam type

(34:28):
military recruitment figure doing propaganda films and live shows all
over the US to sell.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
War bonds, which I could like, this is the point
where I'm like, Okay, I know, ultimately, just because of
what this franchise becomes, that this movie isn't going to
comment on that. But it feels like, you know, in
a movie that is you know, only made possible because
of the American military, so therefore it cannot meaningfully critique

(34:55):
the American military. This was such an interesting opportunity to
comment on a arc and propaganda totally and and does
seem to want you to think that, like it's sort
of goofy what's happening, even though twist what you're watching
is basically just the contemporary version of that. But I
was like, oh, man, like, if if this movie was

(35:17):
allowed to be interesting, which it just like isn't from
moment one because of who's bankrolling it. What a missed opportunity.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
Totally, especially because the imagery that's presented during this sequence
is so heightened and cartoonish that it almost seems like
it would be in a political satire film.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
I'm so curious on like, I don't know anything about
Joe Johnston that we haven't just like covered vaguely in
the other Joe Johnston movie we've covered, or the other
two Joe Johnston movies we've covered he did. He started
with HONEYE Shrunk the Kids, Let's not Forget.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
What, Oh my gosh, I forgot.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, and and we've also covered Jumanji. I think those
are his. They're two really big movies. He also directed
The Page Master, which I loved as a kid, and
I don't remember. I think people think it's bad, but
I was as a child, was like that was my
Macaulay Culkin movie. Anyway. Sure, yeah, I don't really know
what Joe Johnston's politics are or if he's trying to

(36:20):
sneak something in there or not, but Yeah, it feels
very intentional the way that that's filmed, and then it
proceeds to not comment on it at all whatsoever except
to say, I mean again, it's like the fact that
Captain America did that is presented as kind of an
embarrassment to him, but not because of what he's saying

(36:40):
or promoting, just because he'd rather be actually fighting.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yeah, because he's like not living up to his potential
as a super soldier.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Right, there's never a critique of like, you know, it
only looks silly because it's like you're saying, like it
is him squandering his potential, not because what they're saying
in the way they're saying it is like pernicious and yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
Yes. So to that point, Steve is like, Ugh, this
isn't satisfying work. I want to fight. And then he
learns that his best friend Bucky was among a group
of soldiers who were either captured or killed. So Agent
Carter and Howard Stark fly Steve to I think Austria

(37:26):
so that he can try to rescue Bucky if he's alive. Yeah,
So Steve aka Captain America because he's now also becoming
Captain America the superhero. He parachutes out of the plane
and sneaks into some facility where he finds Bucky and
a bunch of other American soldiers. Yeah, Schmidt blows up

(37:50):
this facility for again reasons that I definitely understood. Yes,
and then he and Captain America have a face off,
literally because pulls his face off to reveal that he
is Red Skull.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
Okay, I'm a cynic, and that moment is awesome.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
No, it's great. I loved it.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
I love to see it. And it's like, you know
that this movie is flawed in so many ways, but yeah,
it's it's never I'm never unhappy to see a Nazi
get his ass beat, and that way you know it
is it is very effective. I don't know if you
planned to get into this. I didn't get too deep
into it, but I did feel the need to just
sidebar really quickly to say Steve, Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes.

(38:35):
I think, like, even not as a fan of these movies,
I am well aware of the overwhelming shipping fan fiction
culture there is around these characters. It's called stucky duh.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Okay, I'm not super aware of this specific pair being shipped.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Oh it's listeners, correct me if I'm wrong. But I
did a little bit of scanning in archive of our
own and other fan sites, and Stucky is a thing
Stucky I and I think that this movie does kind
of and I don't mean this in a negative way.
I think that this movie really opens the door for
that because I find the relationship. You know, if I'm

(39:15):
just like watching this like movie brain, I'm watching Steve
and Bucky, and I'm like, they have such a loving friendship.
And I think, as with a lot of these shipping pairs,
even if they are not canonically queer characters, it's it's like,
it's so rare to see men have an affectionate friendship,
which these two do.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
True.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, so just shouting out that existence because you know,
any any queer representation in this movie you will need to,
you know, do some work to get there. But the
Stucky community was holding it down in the twenty tents
and possibly still today. I don't know what they're up to.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Sure, yeah, one of them is dead. What spoiler, well,
Captain America or he either dies or he goes back
in time or something.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Oh oh the character. Oh sorry god, I was like no,
they're not.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
The actors are still both alive.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
I was like, wait, unless this happened today, No, I will.
I had to check with Grant, because no matter how
wonderful a man is, they always do want to remind
you what happened in Marvel movies. And he told me,
and I vaguely remember this because I did see the
last of Andrew's movie. Yeah, he like travels back in
time to be with Peggy at the end, and then

(40:31):
he and then Anthony Mackie gets promoted to Captain America.
And that's a whole other conversation.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
Yes, indeed.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Anyway, so Red Skull has revealed himself Red Skull because
I guess the side effects of the early version of
doctor Erskine's serum made his face look like a skull.
That's okay, hence Red Skull. And then he makes a

(41:04):
little speech about something I don't know. I I was
also having a hard time paying attention in that moment,
and then he pieces out back to the Hydra secret Layer. Okay,
So then Captain America and Bucky escape and then triumphantly
returned to the US military base with all of the
captured American soldiers it's like four hundred of them, and

(41:27):
then there's also one French guy and one British guy there. Sure, sure,
And Tommy Lee Jones is like, what I thought you
were killed in action, Captain America. I guess you really
are a super soldier. And Peggy is like, hey, sexy boy,
I'm so glad you're back.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yeah, and then they basically promote him to like god truly,
like they just give him carte blanche on the entire military.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, he's a national hero and he is given like
general patent levels of military power.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
And so he and his military buddies make a plan
to go back in and destroy Hydra weapons factories and
shit like that, and then they also still need to
find schmid Slash Red Skull and his secret base and
kill him before they leave. Captain America gets his famous shield,

(42:26):
and he also manages to piss off agent Peggy Carter
when she sees him kissing another woman.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Which is an interesting sequence.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Yeah, we'll talk about it. Yeah, but anyway, we get
a montage of Captain America and friends blowing up a
bunch of Hydra shit. Red Skull is pissed, and then
Captain America and his friends jump onto a moving train
to capture doctor Zola, the Toby Jones scientist, fighting some

(43:00):
bad guys along the way, and then oh no, Bucky
falls off the train into a ravine and probably dies
or maybe he becomes the Winter Soldier in the next movie.
Who can say?

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah. I mean, it's part of why watching this movie
in the modern day gets really diminishing returns, because living
in the future, you know that, like this franchise refuses
to kill anybody. So it's like, I don't know, maybe
I did get emotional in the cinema when you're like,
oh no, Steven Peggy, when are they going to see

(43:33):
each other? But you're just like, they are never gonna
let these motherfuckers die. As long as there is a
dollar in the world, these characters will live.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
It's true. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. There was a whole
movie about how half of the characters quote unquote die,
and then the second the next movie is about how
they do all this shit to go back in time
and reverse the timeline so that they all live again.
I don't a lot of what happens.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
I remember people being like the snap, the snap changes everything,
And then the next movie came out and they're like,
never mis kidding, The snap.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Did not really change anything. Yeah yeah. So anyway, Captain
America doesn't know that his best friend survived and would
go on to be in a bunch of other MCU movies,
so he's really really sad. But they were able to
capture doctor Zola on this mission and Tommy Lee Jones

(44:29):
interrogates him and finds out that Red Skull plans to
blow up all of the United States, so the stakes
are high and they really got to stop this guy.
So then Captain America and company head to the secret
Hydra Basse because Toby Jones told them where it is,
and Captain America is captured and brought to Red Skull,

(44:52):
except that maybe that was part of the plan because
his buddies come in and save him. I don't know,
but there's like a big third act fight. Agent Carter
is there. She's not mad at Captain America anymore, so
she gives him a big smooch and says, go get it.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Get which if that doesn't encapsulate an allegedly feminist character
from twenty eleven, show me what does.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
Exactly, And then he jumps on a plane that's taking off,
which is full of bombs that Red Skull plans to
drop on different major cities in the US. Captain America
and Red Skull fight. At some point, the Tesseract gets
dislodged and Red Skull picks it up and disappears. And

(45:39):
not that we know this from this movie, but it
creates a wormhole and he's sent to some faraway planet.
Because this character shows up again in Avengers Infinity War
and Endgame, I think I believe you. Thank you so much. Anyway,
Captain America is still in the plane and he gets

(45:59):
in the pilot seat, but in order to save New York,
where this plane is headed, he has to sacrifice himself
and crash the ship into the ice somewhere. Wait a minute,
was that what the opening of the movie was all about? Yes,
but we're not sure. But we're not sure. But we're

(46:21):
not sure how he gets from being almost to New
York City to somewhere in the arctic tundra within a
few seconds. But I guess we're not supposed to think
about that. Cut to Steve waking up in a hospital room,
it seems like it's still the nineteen forties and there's
a Brooklyn Dodgers game playing on the radio. But wait,

(46:43):
something isn't right. This game already happened. So he's like,
where the hell am I? What's going on? He runs
out and into Times Square and surprise, it's twenty eleven
and Nick Fury played by Samuel L. Jackson famously up
to inform him that he has been asleep for almost
seventy years. I guess he was like frozen in the

(47:08):
ice and that preserved him. And he's like, oh shucks,
I had a date with Peggy. I was so close
to losing my virginity the end, And.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Does he ever lose his virginity? I don't remember. I
don't remember. Maybe he knows, maybe none of my business. Maybe,
And then there's a post credit sequence where Steve is
hitting a punching bag and absolutely nothing happens.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
The end.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
They hadn't quite they hadn't quite cracked in.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll
be right back.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
And we're back.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
A few things stick out to me with and and
again I am not in any manner of authority on
history surrounding World War Two, no, I, but I did
a little bit of research just to sort of flesh
out the way that this period is represented versus what they're.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
Actually what actually was going on. So just roughly what
we see in this movie, and Kitlyn please correct.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
Me, because I was half asleep and missed this. So
we meet Steve Rogers, who you know, is a character
who was invented by Jack Kirby and Joe Simon explicitly
to be the antithesist to Hitler. The first image of him,
he is punching Hitler in the face, which is something

(48:42):
that is replicated in the movie. But we meet him
as a character who really wants to enlist in the military. Right,
did this happen in World War Two? Yes? However, two
thirds of the and I'm pulling this from the National
World War Two Museum, two thirds of Americans who served

(49:04):
in the military during World War Two sixteen million people.
Two thirds of those people were drafted, so only about
one in three were volunteers. There also was a far
more diverse coalition of soldiers than we see. It was
a majority white coalition, but there were over one million
black soldiers, which I don't think we see represented proportionally,

(49:27):
as well as hundreds of thousands of Hispanic Americans as
well as Native Asian and Filipino Americans. We see very
little diversity in this But I think that the point
that has really aggressively hit on in this movie is
that Steve Rogers wants nothing more than to fight for
his country, and we don't really see another point of
view represented, even though those other two in three you

(49:50):
would imagine may have more complicated feelings toward the draft.
This is something that I'm sure is handily addressed. There
is nothing, if not a trillion movies about World War Two,
but in a product this big, and I think, especially
because this is a movie that is marketed at kids,

(50:14):
this is a very particular, i think, very nationalistic way
to portray this period in time that I think, I mean,
I had to double check these numbers to be like,
I know that you know, unlike other wars that the
US was an aggressor in, had a far lower level
of volunteer than World War Two. Vietnam is the example

(50:37):
that comes directly to mind, right, But the fact that
you know two and three people were drafted versus the
only perspective we see presented here feels very playing into
the idea of the quote unquote great American hero where
we're given kind of a very vague backstory and it's

(50:58):
just inherently a American and this is this is not
an ideology that's exclusive to America. It's any nationalistic structure.
There's many many countries that do this, but this is
the American one. So I just thought that that was
worth pointing out that it is. You know, the perspectives
we see are very skewed in favor of the join

(51:22):
the Draft, which is literally what Captain America represents explicitly
at one point in the movie. And I have some
of this for later on, but there are a few
quotes given by Chris Evans and I'm like, he was
so young, and then I look at it and I'm like,
he was twenty nine. He could read. But there are

(51:42):
this repeated pattern I think that is reflective of how
America is perceived by itself and by and globally that
you can find in the press tours for Captain America
products that try to distance themselves from what is very
explicitly being put on screen to be like, oh, he

(52:03):
doesn't really stand for America. He stands for goodness, which
is not what we'll get into that more. But I mean,
I think that part of the reason that this is
an effective piece of propaganda is it's attempting to directly
correlate being American with being good for sure. So anyways, yeah,

(52:24):
astorical how they present the draft anyways.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
Definitely, Yeah, I as we were talking about a little
bit earlier, because it had been so long since I've
seen this movie, I completely forgot how much pro US
military propaganda is present and presented completely earnestly without any
sort of commentary or satire or anything like that. Again,

(52:53):
not that a huge studio superhero movie that was made
in cooperation with the US government would do anything like that, course,
but I was still kind of shocked by how like
in your face this movie is as far as it's
like hyper pro military industrial complex rhetoric. And it got
me wondering about World War II propaganda that was circulated

(53:14):
around the US, since that's what we see Captain America
doing as his first job. So I did a little research.
I'm not an expert on this topic, so I might
be oversimplifying things, but basically, there was a ton of
propaganda going around the US during World War Two. This
happened in World War One as well, but it was

(53:36):
things like films, radio broadcasts, posters, advertisements, magazines, leaflets, cartoons,
comic books, live shows. Basically any type of media that
was available at the time was used to distribute propaganda
by the US government to promote pretty extreme American patriotism
in order to get Americans to support the war effort.

(54:00):
So the idea was to persuade people to be more
blindly patriotic, because that makes people easier to control and exploit.
So propaganda was used not only to kind of broadly
encourage intense American patriotism, but also more specifically to get

(54:20):
people to enlist in the military, to offer their labor
in factories and victory gardens and gathering scrap metal and
things like that. People were propagandized to be frugal with
their use of different materials so that those materials could
be used for the war. People were propagandized into buying

(54:43):
war bonds, which is what we see Captain America selling
in the movie when he's turned into this like Uncle
Sam type figure. So, yeah, I was just curious about that,
and I'm also interested to learn more about how the
pro patriotism slash arguably pro American nationalism propaganda from that era,

(55:04):
like how it influences modern day patriotism and nationalism in
the US, because I have a feeling that they're connected.
And it's also maybe partly why this very pro America,
pro military movie from relatively recent years is set during

(55:24):
this era of World War Two.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
Right, That's that's really interesting. I did not go down
that line of study, but yeah, I mean that that
totally scans. I hope that I'm like afraid that the
history has been like, well, actually.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
I'm like, I know, and we probably right, But this
is a movie podcast, not a history podcast.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Yes, there are other sources for this, but we're trying
to just contextualize the version of history that this movie
is presenting, which is very in line with what we
learned in American public schools, or at least what we
learned in American public school at the time. That is
also very moving target. But it's interesting how much American

(56:07):
propaganda is referenced inside of the movie and then how
much is going on within the production, right, Because I'll
go back to that Chris Evans quote, and this was
something that came back up last year when the Anthony
Mackie Captain American movie came out, which we can talk
about because there was a boycott on that movie at

(56:28):
Captain America Brave New World that we should talk about
the context of. But there was a quote from Anthony
Mackie that is similar to a Chris Evans one, but
I think because Anthony Mackie is a black actor, it
was taken out of context and treated quite differently. But
I'll just share getting to that, like Captain America being

(56:50):
an overt representation of American propaganda and that existing during
times where America is not very popular, and how it's presented,
so Anthony Mackie says last year January twenty twenty five,
For me, Captain America represents a lot of different things,
and I don't think the term America should be one
of those representations. It's about a man who keeps his word,

(57:11):
who has honor, dignity and integrity, someone who is trustworthy
and dependable. And again I very much disagree with this representation.
But of course, you know this was taken up by
the right wing as like Anthony Mackie hates America, blah
blah blah, and then he to me hilariously, was clearly

(57:32):
forced to apologize for this in an Instagram story using
comic sands, and he's like, let me be clear, I'm
a proud American and taking on the shield blah blah blah.
So he was forced to apologize. It is very similar though,
to something that Chris Evan says way back in twenty
eleven that I also disagree with. But I think it's
interesting that this is a through line in the twenty
first century. He said, I'm not trying to get too

(57:54):
lost in the American side of it. This isn't a
flag waving movie. It is red, white and blue. But
it just so happens that the character was created in
America during wartime when there was a common enemy. Even
though it is Captain America. I've said it before it interviews.
I feel like he should just be called Captain Good.
You know. He actors should not be allowed to speak.

(58:18):
You know, he was created at a time where there
was this undeniable evil, and this guy was kind of
created to fight that evil. I think that everyone could
agree that Nazis were bad, and he cap just so
happens to wear the red, white and blue. Now the backbends,
this poor man is doing to do. This is just like,
never listen whatever. Actors are wonderful, but should they be speaking.

(58:41):
I don't know. Sometimes no, But it's interesting that both
of them are sort of trying to do this gymnastics
routine against acknowledging what is very clear about this character,
and in doing so sort of like hitting the nail
on the head of what we're supposed to take away
from Captain America. America good and in the case of

(59:02):
that Chris Evans quote, you know, presenting probably the version
of history that he learned in American schools that you
just that you just talked about. Caitlin is like, well,
we can all agree that Hitler was bad. Absolutely true.

Speaker 3 (59:16):
Of course, of.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
Course Hitler is famously history's greatest monster. And that does
not mean that America being opposed to Hitler means that
America is you know, uncomplicatedly good. We understand this, but
it's just like, it's so funny to me that he
said this isn't a flag waving movie when literally the

(59:40):
first end credit tile his uncle Sam. You're like, yeah, bro,
this is this is like one of the most flag
wavingest movies that we have. Yes, yeah, I mean I
think we're like just sort of pointing out the obvious
in all these different ways. But like the framing of
it is so interesting because it it's like you're also

(01:00:00):
sort of being gas lit by the cast across decades,
right of being like, well, this isn't an American movie. Meanwhile,
he's wearing your red wing blue shield. The movie is
sponsored by the military, and he's it's actually, this is
just a movie about being a good, awesome guy. You're like, right, right, right.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
I mean, it's not unlike the propaganda that Americans were
force fed.

Speaker 5 (01:00:24):
It's the same at the time, and it's the same too. Yeah,
it's the same shit, and it's like this it's it's
also the same character. So it's just like silly that
And I think that, you know, audiences today are kind
of wiser to it in general.

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
Well, I was thinking about this the subsequent Captain America movies.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Which tell me more because I kind of didn't want
to learn.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Well, I can't tell you a lot because I did
not have time to rewatch them's, but I do think
thank you so much. But I do think that they
get less and less pro American military propaganda as they go.
I have a pretty decent handle on Captain America's Civil War,
because I have watched that one multiple times, but I

(01:01:13):
don't really remember Winter Soldier at all. That's the second one,
Bucky Barnes, right, Yeah, so he survives falling into the ravine,
he gets captured, and he's given maybe like different plot
goo or something to turn him into the Winter Soldier,

(01:01:33):
which is he becomes a bad guy, but then he
becomes a good guy again eventually blah blah blah. Again,
I don't remember the specifics, so mcu heads don't come
for me.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Also, there is, just for what it's worth, there is
like a disagreement on whether just going back to like
the enlistment versus draft, there is a disagreement on whether
Bucky volunteered or drafted. It's interestingly, and maybe this is
actually relevant what we're talking about. I think that that
we're first told he was drafted, and later that's revised
to he enlisted, which feels intentional. But there's two versions

(01:02:09):
of the story. The original one was that he was drafted,
which shockingly, actually there was more nuance when this character
was created maybe than there is now.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
There you go all this to say, the sequels are
a bit foggy in my brain, but I feel like
once we start getting the movies where Captain America is
in modern times, there's less of an overt pro American
military sentiment in those movies. But the main thing I
wanted to talk about regarding the sequels, which is something

(01:02:41):
we've already alluded to, is the fourth movie that came
out last year, the Anthony mackiew one called Brave New World. However,
I did not see that movie because there was a
call for a boycott because it features a character named
Sabra who is in the comics as a mosad age
who is framed as a superhero, so not a villain.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Ah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
Yeah, So when it was announced that this character would
be included in Captain America Brave New World, I think
that announcement was made in twenty twenty two, people protested
and Marvel responded by being like, no, don't worry, We're
taking a new approach to that character. Sabra is not

(01:03:28):
Masad anymore in the movie. She works for the US government.
But that was not good enough because simply the inclusion
of this character at all, considering the history and the
context of this character and the fact that she was
played by an Israeli actor in the movie. Tells you

(01:03:50):
what you need to know about Marvel Studio's stance on.

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
Well and again, it's like when you consider the fact
that they work so closely, not only with with Disney,
but with I mean they're owned by Disney and they
literally work with the American military. Of course they are
not going to take any meaningful critique seriously. And there's more.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
Yeah, yay, yeah, okay. So Marvel Studios has broader ties
to Israel because it was founded by a guy named
Avi Arad, who was also the former chairman and former
CEO of Marvel Studios. Before that, he was the chief
creative officer of Marvel Entertainment, which was the predecessor to

(01:04:37):
Marvel Studios. And he is Israeli. He was born in
Israel in nineteen forty eight, which is the same year
as the Nakba. He is a former member of the
IDF and he remains deeply, deeply pro Israel. So the
founder of Marvel Studios is a raging Zionist. Well, it's

(01:05:00):
something I did not know until quite recently.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
I just learned it. Well, Jesus fucking Christ, there you go,
there you go. Yeah, also worth mentioning because we're talking
about American propaganda that you know, if you haven't seen
the most recent UN report on Gaza, that is confirmed,
not that the US is going to meaningfully recognize as

(01:05:26):
the highest level, but that there have been over seventy
thousand people killed by Israel in Gaza, of course assisted
by the US, and twenty thousand children. So I mean,
protesting a Captain American movie is It's a small thing,
but it is. It is meaningful because it's like you
are protesting propaganda. Yes that I didn't realize how to

(01:05:48):
its core that propaganda is, but thank you for that
very frustrating fact. Yeah, yeah, I think that. On that note,
it's worth acknowledging, which we've talked about in a number
of episodes, the Marvel military industrial complex, which is not

(01:06:08):
limited to Marvel movies, but they are. They certainly do
stand out and something that we have talked about the
development of the military's involvement in Hollywood sort of started
with their recognizing the success of Top Gun and forming this, yeah,
forming this industry around Top Gun. So we talk about

(01:06:29):
that in our Top Gun episode. But you know, by
the time that this movie comes out, there was already
precedent for this because the American military had been involved
in Iron Man in two thousand and eight, so from
the very beginning of the MCU, the military was present.
I'm pulling here from a piece in Inkstick Media from

(01:06:50):
last year by Ashley Gate just a little bit of
reference to the movies that they single out as being
made with not just the endorse of, but financial support
from the US military. Are as follows this movie Captain
America and its sequel. I believe the first one Captain Marvel,

(01:07:10):
which I don't think we talked about on our Captain
Marvel episode, and that is one that I would like
to redo at some point, and Iron Man one and two,
so that only seems like five. Maybe they meant both
Captain America sequels. I'm not totally sure. In any case,
those are the Marvel movies that were made not just
with the approval but the financial support. What does that mean?

(01:07:33):
We will remind you, and I'm quoting from the piece here.
By subsidizing military hardware, allowing media conglomerates to film on
military basis, and facilitating the recruitment of off duty soldiers
as extras, the Pentagon validates the movie script and weighs
in to approve the final film with advanced viewings. So
we will probably never know. But if there was ever

(01:07:56):
a version of this script or a version of the
conception of this movie that involved a critique of American propaganda,
it was long, long, long gone before it reaches people,
because the Pentagon gets to sign off on this, which
means that we're seeing something that is explicitly shaped by
the state, and that is propaganda. Yeah, it's a really

(01:08:20):
it's a really interesting piece and we can also and
I'll just send the link. You know, it goes very deep.
I know we've talked about it in the I think
we've talked about it with Transformers movies, with Top Gun,
with Marvel.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
Independence Day, question Mark.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
Possibly that sounds familiar, I think so, Yeah, because Lindsay
was on for that episode. Yeah, there's there's a lot
of history with me. And that's also I think it's
important to mention a fairly recent development. Top Gun came
out in the eighties. So even though you know this
movie is poking a little bit of fun at the

(01:09:00):
you know, very prodicious and effective propaganda machine in the
US of the nineteen forties, it's only become more entrenched
in Hollywood since then. And if we're like taking an
even further step back to Disney bought Marvel, you know,
like in the early Bob Iger era, so whatever, the

(01:09:20):
two thousands, but during the forties, during this time that
this movie is taking place, in both Disney and Marvel
as separate entities were creating US propaganda. One, I mean,
Captain America debuts in nineteen forty, shortly before the US
enters the war, so almost as a like, the movie
is referencing an Uncle Sam like promotional tool to encourage enlistment,

(01:09:45):
and Disney basically put all of their production on hold
to make propaganda, you know, short propaganda films, which is
I think some of the only like frequently discussed World
War two propaganda or at least that I've learned about,
is like Donald Duck fighting Hitler and all that stuff.
All Right, So both of these entities, even before they

(01:10:07):
were like merged to create this very boring influential movie
with the US military, we're doing work for the US
military that just presents the narrative that serves the American
military machine, you know. And I'll say again, all of

(01:10:28):
this is true, and it's great to see someone punch
Hitler in the face night after night, but we have
to be able to contain multitudes here.

Speaker 3 (01:10:36):
Yes, well, and this propaganda extends to certain plot points
or characters in the movie, And yeah, I'm sure there
are ones that I am forgetting or maybe even missed,
But two big ones that I clocked are basically the

(01:10:57):
movie presenting the idea of of technologically advanced bombs that
you drop on an entire city that can kill hundreds
of thousands of people at once. The US would never
do that. That's something that the Nazis would do. That's hi, Tricia.
And not to downplay the abject horror of what Nazis

(01:11:19):
did do, but this movie doesn't seem to want to
admit that the US what kills civilia do something like
that and did do something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
I e.

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):
Hiroshima and Nagasaki killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. So
the movie just like taking atrocities committed by the US
and making that something that the enemy would do. And
then I also feel like the movie tries to kind
of rewrite history with its treatment of the Japanese American
character in the movie. The character's name is Jim Marita

(01:11:51):
played by an actor named Kenneth Choi, where in the
movie he becomes good buddies with Captain America and he
becomes a war hero, omitting the fact that Japanese Americans
were put in internment camps during World War Two.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
Yeah, I mean truly locally. I portions of Griffith Park
in like our own community, were used as Japanese internment
camps and it is still just wildly under discussed in
the US. Yeah, Like, you're totally right, Like there's all
of these things that are presented over half a century

(01:12:29):
later at the time. By the time this movie comes out,
with full knowledge of you know, the Pentagon is well
aware of the atrocities that America has wrought on other
nations and its own people. But they gave money to
Captain America so that they could use a fucking military
bunker or whatever the hell. I just it's miserable. I

(01:12:53):
wanted to touch on just really quickly, and I've done nowhere
near a deep dive to this for comic book fans
that it does seem like in the you know, over
eighty years of this character has existed, there have been
moments where there's been at least an attempt at introspection

(01:13:13):
on the part of this character. One thing that I
found interesting and didn't go very deep into, but there
was a series of Captain America comics in the seventies
in which nineteen seventies Captain America is fighting nineteen fifties
Captain America. So they're literally, yeah, like Captain America is

(01:13:34):
at war with himself and there, I mean, they're.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
So war much.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
I guess self war like whatever. I mean. I didn't
get too deep into it, but there have been, you know,
in the nearly century that this character has existed, writers
and people who have tried to sort of reckon with
what has this character represented versus what does this character
represent now? Because you know, characters like this and I

(01:14:03):
like whatever. Read Raw Dog if you want to know.
But like, you know, these symbols, of these nationalistic symbols,
they do have changing meanings as time goes on, and
it's interesting to see that conversation happen. I'll just leave
it at that, because clearly that is all very absent
from this movie, but I will acknowledge that it seems

(01:14:24):
as if in comic book world there have been and
it seems like this is also true for characters like Batman,
like Spider Man. You know, over in a character that's
existed for nearly one hundred years, there's going to be
some change in some conversation, sure, but I think it
is very telling that the most culturally impactful version of

(01:14:45):
this character pretty much just retains the values of the
original unquestioningly. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
Shall we talk about Agent Peggy Carter?

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:14:59):
Sure, Okay, So I'm more or less just kind of
recapped the main beats that she's in, so just to
kind of go through those. She's initially introduced at the
basic training camp where she's like, I'm the supervisor of

(01:15:21):
the science club or whatever. Some guy, some soldier that
is her subordinate, immediately undermines her, which is perfectly believable given.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
The time and probably still now, but yes.

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
Right, and then she responds by punching him to show
us the audience that she is a strong, independent woman
hashtag Yeah, so that's our first impression of her. There's
a scene in the car a little bit after that
where she is taking Steve to the facility to get
his super soldier gu injected into him, and he's talking

(01:16:02):
about how because he's so small and skinny, no one
respects him or takes him seriously parentheses because he doesn't
embody traditional ideals with masculine masculine ideals y.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Right, which is also you know, at least again as
far as I understand, probably accurate to the time for sure. Also,
you know, it's the movie is not interested in Steve
Rogers until he is traditionally big and brawny and embodies
the quote unquote all American ideals. So it's like, even

(01:16:39):
though he is presented as you know, like lovable and good,
inherently good, regardless of what he physically looks like, the
version of him we celebrate very squarely matches. We don't
celebrate Chris Evan's head on Jeremy Strong's body. And I
think that's intentional for sure. And Peggy Carter isn't really

(01:17:00):
romantically interested in him until he looks like that, because
he's a head on a pile of tennis balls. Like
the scene where they're in the car, Oh my god,
the scene where they're in the car, every angle Steve
Rogers looks like he is a completely different size. I
watched that scene. It's the only scene I watched twice.
It was the only scene I found interesting every new angle.

(01:17:20):
There's one scene where he looks he just looks a
different dimension and his head changes size from angle to ankle.

Speaker 3 (01:17:27):
It is so.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Just just really uncanny and like it's it's the Polar
Express in that car, but you're you're totally right though
with it. Anyways.

Speaker 3 (01:17:38):
So, yeah, he's talking about how he's not respected because
of his perceived lack of masculinity. Yes, Agent Carter responds
by saying, I know what that's like to have every
door shut in your face, parentheses, no one respects me
in this field that I'm in because I'm a woman. Yeah,

(01:17:59):
And then Steve responds by being like, yeah, I guess
I just don't know why you would want to join
the army if you're such a beautiful dame or woman. Agent,
you're not a dame. And then she's like, wow, you
have you have no idea how to talk to a woman,
do you? And he's like he.

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
Says, no, well, no, I mean it's like I don't know.
It's like there's with Peggy. It's like if you're watching
with your brain like sort of only softly on, you
can see you can see the redeeming qualities where you know,
on its face, you know he is drawn too, and

(01:18:42):
like also seems to have a good deal of professional
respect for Peggy, who is it like hyper competent at
her job, is confident and like, you know, there, I
see the argument in any number of early twenty tens
clickbait that she is an inherently feminist character because she,

(01:19:05):
you know, has a job that she is very good at.
She is drawn to slash quote unquote rewarded with the
romantic lead of the movie without having to compromise her
professional position.

Speaker 3 (01:19:20):
Sure, sure, I'm sure again very twenty tens. Yeah, ideals.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
Sure, I mean, because it's like, ultimately, this is a
degree of feminism that the Pentagon is signed off on.
So like when you're like, what what does it mean?

Speaker 3 (01:19:36):
Right, So just a few more examples of this like
version of feminism, I guess we'll call it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
This scene in the car ends with they're they're kind
of flirty because they're talking about like, oh, finding the
right partner to dance with. And the point here is
that she is clearly being poised as Captain America's love interest.

Speaker 2 (01:19:56):
But he's got to get big first.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
Yeah, Yeah, exactly following his transformation when he becomes a
super soldier. There's a chase action sequence where Peggy is
shooting some bad guys and she hits some of them.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
She oh, yeah, she does that classic mixed fee's article
thing she gets to do, like she gets to do
one thing. She gets to do one thing, and it
usually is a kind of cool thing. Unfortunately, she then
is sort of immediately jettisoned from the scene afterwards, which is, yeah,
for sure what happens.

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):
Because what happens is there's a car driving, like one
of the bad guys is driving a car toward her.
She's aiming, ready to fire. We've already seen her like
put a bullet right in a different bad guy's head,
so we're pretty confident that she can do it again. Yeah. However,
Steve pushes her out of the way to quote unquote
save her from being hit by the car, and she

(01:20:52):
angrily responds, I had him like I could have done it,
you know, and he's like sorry and then runs off
and we follow him. So he basically literally shoves her. Yeah,
he shoves her out of the story. But it's feminists
because she didn't like it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:10):
I don't know it's like, you know, whatever in the
warped world that this movie is prothetic. I mean, like
Peggy Carter's shooting Nazis. That's cool. I like that. I
like to see that. But it's just it's so like
it is wild how it happens. I think like three
times where she is present at the like very beginning

(01:21:31):
of an action sequence and then is very intentionally removed
from said action sequence. We're often cutting back to her
in a work capacity, you know, like she is. We're
like we cut back to her and she's got like
a corkboard and she's she's doing corkboard tasks, but she
doesn't get to participate.

Speaker 3 (01:21:52):
Right in very like she's on the periphery kind of thing. Yes, yeah, totally.
Then there's a scene where after we are starting to
get the sense that they are starting to like each other,
Captain America gets jealous because he thinks that Peggy and
Howard Stark are fricking because he doesn't know what fondue is. God,

(01:22:18):
So he's jealous, but he responds in such a way
where he's maybe he just like kind of retreats into himself.
He doesn't have an outburst. But when the same thing
happens for Peggy. She responds very irrationally and.

Speaker 2 (01:22:36):
Hilarically because she almost like shoots him.

Speaker 3 (01:22:41):
Yeah, because what happens here is that Captain America returns
from the rescue mission where he has saved four hundred soldiers,
and this random woman who we don't know, throws herself
at him because he's a hero, and she kisses him,
which Peggy sees.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
Which she says she's doing for all of the women
in America because we can't, Oh, well, all the women
in America aren't aren't here though.

Speaker 3 (01:23:14):
I have to sexually assault you on their behalf, I.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
Mean yeah, yeah, which obviously is like not how the
movie views it, but objectively that is sort of what
that is.

Speaker 3 (01:23:25):
What's happening anyway, So Peggy sees this, he sees she
sees them kissing, and now she's jealous, and we understand
why she might be hurt, of course, but she gets
so pissed off as if they are already in a
monogamous relationship, which they are not, and that like he's
cheating on her, which he is not, because again they're

(01:23:48):
not in a relationship. But she's so mad that she
shoots at him I'm sure he's got the shield that's
made of vibranium, and she probably knew that she wasn't
going to kill him, but like her reaction is so
outsized compared to his, when basically they think the same
thing is going on with one another, that they're like

(01:24:10):
romantically interested in someone other than each other. Yeah, so
it feels like the movie is saying, well, she's a woman,
so of course she's going to behave hysterically, especially compared
to how the man reacts in the same situation. And
then what happens right after that scene is Howard Stark
saying to Steve something like us men will never understand

(01:24:34):
what's going on in a woman's head.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
For sure. Whatever. Yeah, this is so as far as
Peggy goes. I mean, we're presented with a pretty like
basic version of this character in this I did a
little bit of reading about who Peggy is in the
wider Marvel world. She is not involved from the job

(01:25:00):
of Captain America. In fact, she's introduced about twenty five
years after Captain America in the sixties. She is a
member of the French Resistance as a teenager. Prior to
meeting Captain America, and then after Captain America's flocks off
to the Cave or whatever, she works with Howard Stark

(01:25:23):
and has a long history with the Shield Organization, which
is of course the Marvel espionage kind of CIA Pentagon approved. Cool.
They're definitely cool. They're not doing anything fucked up. And
Nick Fury's there, right, Nick Furies Cool. So anyways, like

(01:25:44):
she has more of a character, and I know that.
I'm sure there's a ton of specifics that I am
not aware of. It's also fleshed out not just in
the comic books, but in the TV series Action or
Agent Action Carter Agent Carter, which also stars Hailey Atwell
and apparently Chad Michael Murray. Oh, Chad Michael Murray is

(01:26:08):
in the MCU. Wow, did not know that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:11):
I know that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
But she she appears all over the MCU, and I
think she is sort of presented as this, you know,
I think she's presented as a feminist ideal throughout a
few different generations. The version we get of her here
is the twenty tens version, which is you know, and
actually Haley Atwell mentions this in her conception of or

(01:26:33):
her interpretation of the character. I'm pulling this from Scholarly
Journal Wikipedia.

Speaker 3 (01:26:38):
I copied and pasted the same quote.

Speaker 2 (01:26:40):
The Ginger Rogers quote. You know that she can do
everything in Captain America does, but backwards and in heels,
and so that is, you know, I think again, I
don't think that that is an anti feminist statement or
anything like that, but I do think it is a
very particular way of like in some ways, there's an interpretation.

(01:27:01):
I guess that this is having your cake and eating
it too, right, where you have a character who's shaped
and conceived of as being progressive for women. I'm gonna
hold off on the word feminist. I guess its progressive
and also still is very much, you know, abiding by
the beauty ideals of both that time and our time.

(01:27:22):
And I will say that that is also very true
for Captain America. I think, sure, there's a lot of
aggressive gender conformity in this movie, and it is not
I don't even think Peggy Carter is necessarily catching it
worse than Captain America. However, Captain America is the one
that gets to execute the plot, and Peggy Carter, I

(01:27:44):
think we're told, we're led to believe she is far
more involved in the plot of the movie than you know,
screen time wise and action wise, she actually is.

Speaker 3 (01:27:53):
Yeah, exactly like And this is like, I feel like,
pretty specific to the early two thousand because I think
by the time we get to the late twenty tens,
this we have Captain Martin has already shifted a little bit, right,
But in twenty eleven, we're seeing we've moved past the
idea of a woman in an action movie simply just

(01:28:15):
being there to be the love interest of a man
who gets damseled and has to be saved and otherwise
does nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:28:22):
For the most part, for the most part, because I mean,
we're still the early Nolan and Batman movies are not
too far behind.

Speaker 3 (01:28:30):
Us, true, true, true, true, Yeah, but we are seeing
we are starting to see a shift. So yeah, maybe
we haven't fully moved past it, but we are starting
to see a shift where, oh, we can't just damsel
a woman. We have to let her participate in some
of the action. We have to let her be smart
and sassy or something like that. We can even give

(01:28:53):
her a gun, we can even let her shoot some
people and stuff, But ultimately we can't let her move
the story forward in any meaningful way. We can't really
give her any characterization outside of some very surface level stuff,
and then also being the love interest of the male hero,

(01:29:15):
we can't give her any interiority or stakes or anything
like that. So yeah, it's reflective of an interesting I
guess time in like representation of women in action movies.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
It's a very in between e moment, and you're totally right,
like by the end of the decade, the goalpost has shifted.
But I mean, yeah, I just really want to So
listeners were planning on, like before the end of the year,
sort of doing this series on the main feed where
we like revisit a movie that centers on a character

(01:29:49):
of a marginalized gender from every year of the show
as a part of our ten year celebration, Sean, and
I'm like very eager as much as I know I'll
find them infuriating to go back to Wonder Woman and
Captain Marvel, because I mean, for and those are very
different discussions, but just from the framework of like what

(01:30:10):
does Pentagon approved feminism and how does that sort of
evolve over time, I think it is like very telling. Anyways, Yeah,
I think that I understand why Peggy was a well
received character at the time. Because I think that this
type of character was still considered fairly novel, like a

(01:30:34):
woman having any agency in an action movie. Not to
say it was unheard of, but it was still I
think quite rare. So I understand why look like we're
sometimes we cling to things because YadA YadA, because there's
no alternative, at least in mainstream media. But I think, yeah,

(01:30:56):
with the with the benefit of time, this is you know,
state of her feminism, So what is it really what
does it mean? What is she being feminist in service
of et cetera. But yeah, and again same with Captain Marvel.
You know, this character has been around for twenty five
years less, but that's still a really fucking long time. Yeah,

(01:31:18):
and I'm sure that if you're a big fan of
the comics there are examples that provide pushback or more
contacts that I'm just not aware of. But the Peggy
we get here. You know, I appreciate that haileyatt Well
seems to really be doing everything she can with this character,
but she's just kind of not given enough and I
don't think that her actions have enough meaningful bearing on

(01:31:39):
the plot to you know, consider her, you know, on
par with Captain America, and it totally makes sense why
people are kind of shipping Bucky and Captain America together
more their relationship has more stakes and more time to develop,
so right.

Speaker 3 (01:31:54):
And then by the end of the movie, again Peggy
Carter is she gets over her being so furious at
Steve Rogers that she shoots at him four times because
she sees like film footage of Captain America looking at
a picture of her in his lockett or something.

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
I don't find I'm like, does.

Speaker 3 (01:32:15):
Captain America have a Lockett but he's looking at a
picture of her?

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):
No, no, I wrote, I wrote down his masculine lockett.
I think it's supposed to be like a compass that's
basically a Lockett.

Speaker 3 (01:32:25):
Oh sure, yes, boy lockett.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28):
It's definitely not girly lockett that he has.

Speaker 3 (01:32:32):
Yes, So she's not mad at him anymore. She's like, Wow,
he does love me. And then at the end she
is sort of a part of the big like third
act battle more so than.

Speaker 2 (01:32:43):
Other women in Marvel movies. I will say, but.

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
Like, definitely one's from around this era, aside from oh
my god, what the hell is this Scarlett Johansen character's name,
I don't black Widow.

Speaker 2 (01:32:57):
Yeah, yeah, well black Widow. Yeah they acted like Black
Widow invented febinism in twenty twelve.

Speaker 3 (01:33:03):
Yeah, we're right. Yeah. But anyway, so Peggy is in
the big battle sequence at the end, but I was
also kind of confused by that because she's not really
a soldier. She's a supervisor, so I don't know why
she's in combat. But whatever, it's a movie and I
don't understand. I'm not mad that she's there, but she's
shooting her gun. She kills some people, but then gets

(01:33:25):
relegated to like strictly love interest again when she's like,
go get him.

Speaker 2 (01:33:31):
That so annoying, and then.

Speaker 3 (01:33:33):
Gives him a big smooch and then Tommy Lee Jones
is like, I'm not gonna kiss you parentheses, yucky, that
would be gay.

Speaker 2 (01:33:40):
Yeah, they have to get a no homeow moment in
because it's twenty eleven. Uh huh.

Speaker 3 (01:33:44):
And then at the very end, she's on the radio
with Steve as he's sacrificing himself and crashing the plane
and she's crying and that's all she gets to do
with the end.

Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
Yeah, it's a it's a weird in between place to
find a woman in a in this genre because she's
treated like a damsel in distress at more than one point.
But I wouldn't categorize her as a damsel in distress.
It's like this bizarre gray area that she's experiencing that
it's like, I don't know what to make of it,

(01:34:17):
but but there it is. Nonetheless there is. I also
didn't know that she like her younger sister, and then
later niece becomes another Captain America love address because he's
a mortal question Mark. There's someone named Sharon Carter.

Speaker 3 (01:34:32):
Okay, that's kind of none of my biziness. I kind
of does because he's like kind of cryogenically frozen I
guess when he crash lands in the ice, but also
his cells are improved from the goo, and so I
think he's able to like regenerate and heal and live longer.

(01:34:53):
Question Mark. Then I don't know a regular passion.

Speaker 2 (01:34:56):
I'm just like, there's we talked about this on another
recent episode where I'm like, I reach like critical mass
on lore and I'm just like, I, you know what, Like,
I'm just dealing with the text you've put in front
of me. I'm not doing homework to watch a movie
I don't even like. But that's not true. Actually, we
did kind of a considerable amount of homework for this movie.

(01:35:16):
We don't even like, that's our job. What else?

Speaker 3 (01:35:21):
What else? What else?

Speaker 2 (01:35:22):
I don't really have a ton else.

Speaker 3 (01:35:24):
I honestly don't have much else, as aside from just
pointing out that this is a very white cast.

Speaker 2 (01:35:32):
Yes, and to speaking to your point. When there are
non white characters, it is often to make an ahistorical point.

Speaker 3 (01:35:40):
Right yeah. With the Japanese American character yeh, Jim Rita.
And then there is a black character who also is
a part of Captain America's inner circle of soldier buddies.
We learn a couple of things about him, such as
he went to Howard University, and he knows how to
speak German and French. What his name is I don't know,

(01:36:03):
because if the movie says it, it's not enough times
for the audience to remember. And he also is just
again very much on the periphery. He is a tertiary character,
as is Jim Marita. And then we don't know anything
else about them, yay.

Speaker 2 (01:36:22):
And then every other character is white, and every other
character is white, and it will remain that way in
the MCU for some time. And also I mean, this
is we're running out of time. And also I'm trying
to stay as focused on this single movie as we can,
because otherwise it becomes an eight hour of saga. But
just speaking to like well, I do think it is

(01:36:43):
generally positive that the diversity of Marvel movies increased as
time went on. I think that the reason at least
to be that Black Panther and the Ryan Coogler installments
of Marvel are considered to be kind of from what
I can tell, the meaningful level of inclusion of black

(01:37:03):
actors is because there is representation behind the camera as well,
which is why I think a lot of and this
isn't even exclusive to Marvel, but why a lot of
blockbuster representation. I'm also they gave Star Wars ends up
falling flat or ends up not being meaningful because there
is very little representation behind the camera, which generally leads

(01:37:24):
to people of color in front of the camera getting
a very very raw deal. Yes, and it does seem
like based on what I have done some very light
research on sort of what happens with Anthony Mackie throughout,
But again I know that there's also a TV show
that I think attempts to contend with some of the

(01:37:45):
institutional racism in America. I don't know how effectively it
does it. I will not be watching the show.

Speaker 3 (01:37:52):
Sorry, is that the one with Red Hawkey what's his name?

Speaker 2 (01:37:56):
No? No, it's not with your I don't think Jeremy
Renners involved. There was there was a there was a
Winter Soldier, The Winter Soldier and Captain Whatever. They had
their own series on Disney Plus got it. But unfortunately,
I think by the time that even happened, everyone was
so sick of superheroes that, like, by the time they
even attempted to say anything, for the most part, most

(01:38:19):
people had checked out because they'd watched forty five boring movies.
So anyways, uh yeah, this is still early in the
Marvel MCU. It is very white and not really asking
why that is, But it's because it's just presenting a
false version of history where everyone was white and volunteered.

Speaker 3 (01:38:42):
To be a soldier.

Speaker 2 (01:38:44):
Yes, all right, it does not pass the backdel task.
It just doesn't close. It just doesn't. Peggy it Miss
Peggy Smurf.

Speaker 3 (01:38:54):
She's the only woman in the movie except for that
other woman who sexually assaults Captain America.

Speaker 2 (01:38:59):
Yes, and she does so on behalf of all women questions.
She of course, I think she actually does have a name,
but it doesn't pass the Bechdel test no nipple scale,
What do we think?

Speaker 3 (01:39:12):
Honestly, I can't think of a reason to give it
any more than zero nipples.

Speaker 2 (01:39:19):
Yeah, I guess I'll give it a half nipple. I'm
going to give it a half nipple because Peggy Carter
is not a completely helpless, damseled character, which I think
is meaningful enough even for the time this is released
into to give that creative decision a nod, even though

(01:39:41):
it ends up playing into a lot of erasure of
what could be more active. And it's pentagon to proof feminism.
So what does it mean? But I'll give it a
half for that. I do think that that is at
least unusual enough fair.

Speaker 3 (01:39:54):
I will meet you there.

Speaker 2 (01:39:55):
Okay, fine, Yes, amazing. So one nipple total for Captain America.
I'm not I don't know I'm gonna I'm not gonna
give it to anyone. I'm just gonna put it on
the floor. I'm gonna throw it into the ravine behind
Bucky Barnes.

Speaker 3 (01:40:11):
Yeah. Great, I love it. Yeah, well that's our episode
on Captain America.

Speaker 2 (01:40:16):
Everyone, and you know what, you know what you sickos
on the Matreon. That was an interesting conversation, So if
you thank you, thank you. And on that note, if
you want to have a say and what you hear
on our Matreon and sometimes on our main feed, please
head over to our patreon aka Matreon. It is the

(01:40:37):
best way to support the show is five dollars a month,
always has been, always will be, and that five dollars
gets you to bonus episodes a month on a theme
of either ours or your choosing. Usually, our our matrons
almost always have a say in either the theme or
the movies that we're choosing for the theme. We recently
did Divorce Buery and you also get exclusive updates on

(01:41:02):
when we're going on tour and a bunch of other
fun stuff, So check that out patreon dot com slash
Bechtel Cast.

Speaker 3 (01:41:08):
Indeed, and with that should we.

Speaker 2 (01:41:13):
I'm gonna go put my head on jermy Strong's body. Okay,
kinky okay, also bye bye. The Bechtel Cast is a
production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me Jamie Loftus and.

Speaker 3 (01:41:31):
Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

Speaker 2 (01:41:36):
And edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of Them?

Speaker 3 (01:41:39):
That's Me? And our logo and merch and all of
our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftis, Ever
heard of her? Oh My God?

Speaker 2 (01:41:48):
And our theme song, by the way, was composed by
Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski Iconic and a
special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 3 (01:42:00):
For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash
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