Challengers with Princess Weekes

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zeph and Best
start changing with the Bechdel.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Cast, Game Match Point, Love Tennis podcast, fucking touching fingers, Oh,
sweaty hugs.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
What do you think Tashi majored in? I was wondering
that what did Tashi major in? Because okay, sorry for
just starting the episode. I just I can't stop thinking
about what was Tashi majoring in. Was it genuinely an
athlete style journey where she was doing general studies? Or
my guess, I feel like Tashi is she a woman

(00:49):
in stem? Is she?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
I think she was a psych major?

Speaker 3 (00:52):
I was gonna guess anthropology, Okay, something like that. I
don't know. Well, wait, let's start the episode. Okay, this
is I I have true clearly cannot wait to start
talking about challengers. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name's
Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
My name is Caitlin Deonte. This is our show where
we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point, Jamie, what
the heck is that test? Well?

Speaker 3 (01:17):
The Bechtel test is a media metric created by friend
of the show queer icon Alison Bechdel, originally for her
comic collections to watch out for Our way back in
the eighties as a one off joke, as a way
of discussing something that is relevant to our conversation today,
why there was not more queer women depicted in movies,

(01:40):
and has since been you know, sort of transformed into
a more generalized media metric. So our version of the
test is it requires that two characters of a marginalized
gender with names speak to each other about something other
than a man for more than two lines of dialogue,

(02:00):
and the dialogue should mean something.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
We think so, we think so, and.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
What that means to you? Look, we only have one life.
I once had the dog in me to argue about
the pedantics of the Bechdel Test, But frankly, we've got
bigger fish to fry today because we have.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Got bigger balls to hit with a racket, We've got
bigger tennis balls to hit.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
I will say I watched Challengers with my dog bravely,
and he was locked in and I was like, Wow,
he doesn't usually sit for movies, and it's because there's
tennis balls everywhere. I was, literally honest, like, why is
Sunny so into this movie? And it's because there's tennis
balls in almost every scene and that's his past a dog.

(02:43):
He is a dog.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Wow, makes so much sense.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
But yes, we have an incredible returning guest, so let's
get her in here.

Speaker 4 (02:50):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yes, she's a video essayist. You remember her from our
episodes on Wild Things, Space Jam Gone Girl. It's Princess Weeks.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Hi.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
Everyone, I'm so happy to be back. And I think
Tashi was a marketing major.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Oh yeah, because we do see her do marketing me.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yeah, totally makes sense. I do feel like Tashi was
taking college. Seriously, we just didn't get to see it
happening exactly.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
The movie was not interested in that. It was like,
what if she is a tennis dom Yes, and that's
what the movie's about.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Thank god, And that is a compelling question.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah yeah, Princess, tell us what your relationship with this
movie is.

Speaker 4 (03:39):
Wow. I mean I just was so excited to see
Zendaya in a movie that had nothing to do with
anyone from Euphoria. That was initially the big draw, and
I grew up loving tennis. You know, I think every woman,
but especially every black girl grew up just loving the
Savina and Venus Williams, and so I have a lot

(04:00):
of just love for watching you know, black women in tennis,
and then you know the hint of bisexual men. It's
a siren song that'll get me every time. We didn't
know we were gonna have heated rivalry. So I was
just very much invested in, like, finally, after this sexless
drought that we were dealing with, with contemporary films that

(04:22):
actually have something that was erotic and interesting and like
for adults specifically, And so it just was this moment
of like, oh my god, an adult movie starring Zenda
that got pushed back during the pandemic. We're here, We're
back cinemas. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
I feel like Challengers walked so that heated rivalry could run.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
It's true. It's true. Yeah, Challengers could kiss, so heated
rivalry could absolutely raw.

Speaker 4 (04:52):
Fuck Thank god for that.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, Jamie, what about you? What's your relationship with Challengers?

Speaker 3 (05:01):
I really like it. I really like it. I saw
it in theaters in Boston when it first came out.
Which was kind of fun because a lot of this
movie is shot in Boston. Yeah, this was a movie
that from the second I saw the trailer, which I'm
very excited to talk about, and I was reminded of
because of Princess's wonderful video essay about Challengers and about

(05:24):
Tashi Duncan.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
She's and yours sort.

Speaker 4 (05:28):
Of like is she?

Speaker 3 (05:31):
But from the second I saw the trailer, I was like, Oh,
this is I'm in. I'm a horny. This was a
trip where I think I saw both Love Lives Bleeding
and Challengers.

Speaker 4 (05:42):
Oh wow, which are That's a horny day.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
It was a horny, horny time for me. I was
looking to escape and there were horny movies out. It
was great. And I feel like these two movies are
weirdly in conversation with each other in a way I'm
excited to talk about. Anyways, I love Challengers. We'll be
talking about it critically today.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
But man, I turned this movie.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
On and I've blackout.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
I'm fucked up.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
I get horny. And that shot of Zendia watching the
boys kiss oh really goals a generational a generational image.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
I'm very excited to talk about it.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
Also, I didn't know shit about tennis really outside of
watching Venus and Serena growing up until like two days
ago when I started getting ready for this episode, also
thanks in part to Princess's video, So I'm very excited
to live, laugh, Learn, Kitlin, what about you.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
I also saw this movie in theaters in Oxford, England,
because I was there during the Shrektannic tour that Jamie
you tragically were not able to join me for.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
I was in Boston witnessing death and seeing Horney movies
and see and those are sort of the two things
I was doing at that time, the.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Spectrum of life exactly, and so I just had sort
of like a free day that I didn't really have
anything else going on, and everyone was talking about Challengers.
So I went to go see it and I enjoyed
it a lot. I love the soundtrack, the score like

(07:24):
the music does a lot. I remember thinking that it
ended too abruptly and I wanted I kind of wish
the movie had the guts to like put them into
a throttle at the end or something, and I'll talk
more about that, but overall, I enjoyed it. This is
one of those movies where so sometimes when we watch

(07:47):
a movie for this podcast, and I'm prepping, and after
my first watch, I have pages and pages of notes
because it's such a cut and dry, like problematic things
that are very clear, and I have a lot to
say that is like exactly what you would expect us
to say on the podcast. And then there were other

(08:07):
movies where I've done my first watch and I'm like,
I don't know, I don't know what to make of this.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
That's how you know he got a good one on
our hand?

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, And this was this movie. And then so I
had that experience where I watched the whole movie and
then I looked at my notes and I had not
written a single thing down. And I was like, oh, no,
you were too horny. I was too horny. You're shaking
vibrating with horniness. And then I went out last night
with a friend. We got some drinks, we danced. I

(08:40):
haven't danced in ages, and I forgot how to fun
dancing is Wait, where'd you go this bar in? I
think I was in Cypr's park called Footsies.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
Oh Footsies is so fun.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah. Wow. I came home. I was tipsy. I was like,
I know exactly what I'm gonna say now, it was
just I just had to kind of loosen up, I think,
and now I have so many thoughts.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
So this is a fascinating, Like you can watch this
movie with your brain fully on or your brain fully off,
and I feel like it's a good experience either way.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Absolutely, it's here's the hilarious thing. I was gonna say,
it's kind of you know, this movie is challenging. I
was to discuss I was challenged. I felt challenged by
this one.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
And I also like the deep lore of this movie
is so fascinating in a very parasocial way. I'm so
curious about Selene's Song and Justin Kuritzky's as a couple,
Like what is going on with those two? Because this
is Justin Kurskis, who wrote this script, has been married

(09:48):
to it is I think most famously Selene Song's husband,
as it should be. But he's a great writer as well,
and he is like sort of we're led. I think
like he's he's kind of portrayed in Past Lives as
the writer of Boner. Remember yeah, the husband in Past
Lives writes a book called Boner. Justin Kritzky's also wrote

(10:10):
a novel. So I think you know, one plus one
often equals too equals too.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
I mean we see a Boner in Challengers boner representation.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
And you're like, okay, yeah, genuinely Boner was on his
mind exactly at this time.

Speaker 4 (10:27):
It's giving bisexual and I and I say that as
a bisexual. I'm like, there's something just very like because
he also wrote queer, I believe, right, and so there's
just something kind of algebras a quah about his work
that I'm very like intrigued ry and I'm like, tell
me more.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
Me too, Yeah, I just I'm very I don't know.
There's few marriages that I'm I want to know more about,
quite honestly, but this is one of them. Also, he was,
did either of you I remember watching this in like
high school or college.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
The Potion Sellar video. What what is that? What is that?

Speaker 3 (11:07):
It's like it's a very like lo Res viral video
from twenty eleven. It's so silly and it's justin Kurtzky,
he like went viral in twenty eleven for being wait.
I do think you should both watch it.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
It makes me love it.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
So it's literally it's so twenty eleven that it's a
joke that is based on a filter on photo booth.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
Oh oh, photo booth. I kept so many nudes in there.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Oh oh, yes, I used to love this video. It's
so old that he wrote challenges.

Speaker 4 (11:42):
You know what. This is why we say that, like
men's rights do matter, because imagine a while. Every once
in a while you need a man who can just
do something like this for you.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
It's true, it's true.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
I love that we have more subscribers than him, though
that's also reassuring, very true.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
One day anyway, So should we take a break and
then come back for the recap? Let's do it. Okay,
So here's the recap. We are in New Rochelle, New York.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
Ever heard of it? I hadn't.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
I had because someone who I dated in college briefly
was from there. Also, speaking of okay, I forgot the
other part of my history with challengers. With tennis. I
bought a tennis racket my freshman year of college because
I was like, I'm going to get into tennis. I

(12:51):
took a few lessons from a sophomore student who was
on the men's tennis team. I took a couple lessons,
and I was like I'm not good at this. I
like it, but I'm not sure if this is the
sport for me, because if I'm not automatically great at something,
I immediately quit me too. But I kind of kept

(13:14):
taking lessons with him because I thought he was very hot.

Speaker 3 (13:17):
Kitlyn, you have a pattern of doing this.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, you're not wrong.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
You're a bit of a challenger yourself.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
I'm kind of a challenger in this way.

Speaker 4 (13:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
And then I eventually was like, uh, I'm busy, I
can't anymore. Flash forward to four years later, I see
this guy at a bar and I was like, oh, hey,
remember me. I took tennis lessons from you, and he's like, yeah,
I remember, And I was like should we kiss or something?
And then and then I started a torrid affair with

(13:48):
this man. And when I say that, I mean we
had really bad sex because he was really bad at
sex a couple of times. And then I was like, wow,
I also quit this because this time, this time, you're
the one who's bad at the thing, and I'm out
of here. And so that's my hero Tennis.

Speaker 4 (14:05):
Thank you for many reasons, But I just find that
that's very tashy duncan of you.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
I feel like Hashi Duncan does not have time for
someone who well, actually, I don't know. Do do we
think our Donaldson is good at sex?

Speaker 4 (14:21):
I think so.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
I feel like he's a tender lover.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
I think he's a giver. I think he's definitely a giver.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
He can find the clip, but he finds it so
quickly that the appeal gets lost, you know, because she
likes the challenge. Yeah, exactly, Yes.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
It was really it was really interesting like watching this
movie not just to get horny, but to really pay
attention to the relationship dynamics because I think, like, Mike
is it Mike Feist? Feist?

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Is that how we say it? Fist.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
I feel like his performance was talked about the least
and I understand why, but I think he's really cooking
in this he is. He plays he plays the cock
very well.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
I find his relationship dynamic with Tashi very compelling and
again goals because I want to be a domb to
a man.

Speaker 4 (15:13):
Sub Yeah, as my friend Sidy would say, all blonde
men should be submissive. And he has like perfect bottom face,
like it's just like it's just like you look at it,
your like absolutely, it's the big eyes his open face,
but he's like very masculine still, but there's this like

(15:34):
tenderness where it's like, yes, open.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
He's kind of like a diabolical bottom too, because he's
always like best kind, he's scheming. I kind of Yeah,
I was so taken in by the Patrick of it all,
which is always the case. You get taken in by
the Patrick, and then, like Tashi, you dump him.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
You come for the Patrick, you stay for the art.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, but then you get bored of art, you know,
it's like it's it is, and then you maybe start
dating women. And that's maybe Tashi's story. We don't know.
We don't know. We just know that at the end,
she's still blue baled. She's like, when are these men
gonna play real tennis? Yeah, they're hugging like losers. She

(16:21):
does not care about their relationship being resolved. She's like,
play tennis. I love her.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Okay. So we're in New Rochelle right right, it's twenty nineteen.
We are at a tennis competition sponsored by Phil's Tired Tone.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
It's so random that we're in twenty nineteen, by the way,
like it is a period piece by way of like
three years. It's weird, but I thought it was kind
of fun.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
I think it's just so that they could do hot
in here in the flashback. That's the only that's the
only reasoning I could find.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
And that's worth it.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
That's worth it.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
Apparently that's not the song that was playing and the
scene happened because everyone was like, why isn't Day of
Dancing so like off beat offat high here? And then
she was like, it wasn't me, guys. Apparently, like when
they were filming, it was like a Bowie song or
something melodic and dreamy, and then they just put in
hot in air and close, so sday I can dance, guys,

(17:19):
don't let them fool you.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
I love movie. Wow, that's great movie magic. Anyway, So
there it fills tire Town Challenger, and I will mention
Phil's tire Town one hundred times throughout this throughout this
recap because we keep cutting back to this match. Anyway,
we meet Patrick Zwag played by Josh O'Connor and Art

(17:42):
Donaldson played by Mike fight story however you se it, yeah,
who play each other in a series of matches and
watching them in the stands is Tashi Donaldson formerly Tashi
Duncan played by Zenda, who is married to Art, and

(18:03):
then both men look at Tashi meaningfully and we're like, hmm,
what's that all about? This movie?

Speaker 3 (18:11):
Is the male gaze is back and it's in the
movie Challengers.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, we are seeing men.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Gaze and not respectfully, but I'm into it.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
I don't I kind of don't mind it. We also
see tennis ball gaze. We are seeing things from the
point of view of a tennis ball. At one point,
I was.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
Trying to track that because I do think that we
generally see Tashi play tennis from the male gaze, but
we do see the guys play tennis from the female gaze.
It's not like it's exclusively the male gaze. And then
occasionally we switch to the tennis balls gaze, which I
had never even considered.

Speaker 4 (18:55):
It's the pan sexual gaze. Everyone is getting their own
vision of like what makes them horny, and the tennis
ball just wants to be held, you know, it wants
to be at the center of the passion.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
That's where my cocker Spaniel really locked in. He's like, yeah,
what about the tennis ball.

Speaker 4 (19:13):
Finally, someone talking about the main character.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
A protagonist of challengers the tennis ball. Okay, Then we
cut to two weeks earlier. We learn more about Art
and Tashi. Tashi is a former tennis champ but had
to retire and end her career early after a knee injury.
She is now Art's like coach slash manager. They also

(19:42):
have a daughter together who loves into the Spider verse,
so you know she has great taste.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
I love that was a great child representation.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yes, we see Art play a match and lose. He
is apparently rusty after recovering from a recent injury. Tashi
tells him to get his shit together and start winning,
which is why she suggests that he plays something that
he's sure to win, such as this Phil's Tired Town challenger.

(20:15):
And I don't exactly know enough about tennis to know
specifically what a challenger is or what the parameters of
it are.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
My understanding, because I really tried to understand tennis for this,
and I did. I stayed up late last night watching
one of many Venus and Serena docs, and I don't know.
I just like anyway, I was trying to get caught up.
A challenger I think is like a low rung pro match.

(20:45):
But like harder to be a lower rung. It's kind
of JV but it's still technically pro tennis.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
And is it the type of thing that, depending on
how you rank in it, it can like qualify you
for one of these US open kind of things.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, because Patrick says that on his very depressing date
that poor woman, I know, but yeah, we're I think
he's saying that, like this is something that could, you know,
if you perform well, it could sort of get you
into one of those top one hundred and twenty whatever spots.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, okay, So then we cut to Patrick Zwag who
is trying to get a room at a hotel so
that he can rest before this tire Town Match Challenger
thing that he is also playing and it starts the
following day, but he's completely broke and he can't afford

(21:40):
to pay for the room, so he sleeps in his car.
He's hoping to win the Challenger because the winner gets
seven thousand dollars, so he's in kind of dire straits,
although we learn later that he comes from a very
well to do family, and it seems like he could
ask his family for money and then he just chooses
not to, so One of the most frustrating personality types

(22:02):
is rich guy. Cosplaying as poor guy is exhausting.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
And it's like it's like pure early hobosexual representation. It's
just like, how does he where does he live? Underneath people?

Speaker 3 (22:15):
That's how he like kind of a guy. I feel
like I met a lot of guys like this in college.
A guy that you are like, oh wow, I feel
like I have stuff in common with him, and then
later you see what his family is like, and you're like,
I cannot believe I've lent this person money. He's really frustrating,
which of course means that he's probably great at sex.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
Absolutely. Also, I just love Josh O'Connor, Like, I know,
hot man, hot politics, hot girlfriend.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Like yes, wait, what's her? I just saw her out
the Saving Grace of Wuthering Eye.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
Absolutely, she's so they're so good together, Irish love. And
I'm just like, that's a third I would be in between.
It's just like, I will, I'll sign up for that
challenger events.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yes, that's your challenger.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
So Patrick checks in for this tournament, where by the way,
there is Duncan Donuts representation because the woman that he
checks in with is eating a Dunk's egg and cheese
and bagel sandwich.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
I was doing the same thing just this morning.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
I was like, yes, we're so.

Speaker 4 (23:31):
Wow is what the culture is feeling, you know.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Dunce is back. Yeah. Then we flash back to thirteen
years prior. Patrick and Art are eighteen years old. I
think they're best friends. They are playing doubles tennis together
at the Junior US Open. They win their match, and

(23:56):
then they watch Tashi Duncan play. They do not yet
know her, but they know of her and they're like
hubba hubba a wooga, both at how attractive she is
and also her amazing tennis skills. Because she is a champ.

(24:17):
They spot her at a party that night where she
is dancing offbeat too hot in here. They sprint up
to her. It is comical how they just rush her
and they're like, hey, what's up? Where Art and Patrick?

Speaker 3 (24:36):
They also humiliatingly call themselves fire and Ice when they're
I know, I do feel like they capture a beautiful
like men being embarrassing together like as teenagers. It's really
captured Fire and Ice. And she's like, so, who's who
and they're.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
Like yeah, It's like it's one of those things where
it's like there are moments for like, I am attracted
to men, and it just it's like it was one
of those moments where it's kind of like as painful
as it is, I'm so I would be so lost.
I would be like this would work on me. And
I hate that.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
I mean especially the moment where yeah, I was like, wow,
I've pit alone in this cabin for too long, where
clearly like they're just gonna wait for her as long
as they need to for her to pay attention to them,
and it seems like they wait for hours hours, and
it is just like God being on the receiving end
of that. Even if you're like not particularly attracted to

(25:36):
the person doing it, it can just be like I'm
so powerful, this rocks now go away, Oh so beautiful.

Speaker 4 (25:44):
It's like it's one of those things where like I'm like,
I love this. I just love I just love her power.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
I love yeah, just.

Speaker 4 (25:53):
The way that she like sits in her own will.
And I think that's what makes Tashi such an interesting character.
And I think just from like a character's standpoint, it's
such an interesting thing for Zendeia to do because I
think that this is something that her career really needed,
because she was going in that space where she's been
paying like young adults and like teenagers for such a

(26:14):
long period of time, even though she isn't like she
is thirty, and it felt like her first truly adult role.
And I just want her to find her Ryan Kugler
or her Naya da Costa who will like really take
all of her acting potential and start curating movies around
her for that potential, which I think this movie really

(26:35):
well does.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
Yes, I'm very excited for the drama for that reason.
I'm like very curious if that utilizes her the way
she deserves to be utilized.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Is that the one that she's in with Robert Pattinson?

Speaker 4 (26:49):
Yeah, okay, which as soon as I saw that casting,
I was like inspired, especially because especially because now you know,
Tom Holland is now Tom Zendaya and like locking her
down as you should, and that's he's got that art
energy in real life, Oh for sure. Yeah, and we're
rooting for it.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
He really does. Yeah, It's just I love their relationship.
I love that I know basically nothing about it, and
I love they're seeing like little bits and pieces of
her and Robert Pattinson in conversation with each other. Is
so funny because she is like so clearly the adult
in the room in spite of the fact that he's
I think, like ten years older than her. Where she's

(27:29):
just she's so poised. I love her.

Speaker 4 (27:33):
She's amazing. Actually I think she's older than him.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
No, the same age, No, the same age really with
her and Tom Holland, I was talking about Robert Pattinson.

Speaker 4 (27:43):
Oh, Robert Pattinson.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yes, Oh my god, sorry, Robert Pattinson's like forty yes, yeah,
oh my gosh. He's really close to your age. He's
born on May thirteenth.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Oh yeah. We always figure this out. I always look,
this has happened on the podcast several times. I find
out his birthdays right next to mine and that we're
the same age.

Speaker 4 (28:03):
I love that. Well, he's gen z emotionally, so that's why.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yes, right right, right, right right.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Okay. So they're at this party. They wait for her
because their conversation gets cut short. They're desperate to talk
to her, so they stick around. They invite her to
hang out. She agrees. They talk about tennis, and she's
basically like, you guys are not tennis players. You think
you are but you're not. Tennis is a relationship and

(28:31):
that's not what you're doing when you're playing. And then
they're like, by the way, we both want your number,
and we also want you to come to our hotel
room later tonight, and she's like, yeah, okay, but she
does show up then, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
Such a great sequence that, like you see everyone's perspective
in this where they're like, she's not coming, and then
there's a knock on the door and I think Mike
does a flip over.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Himself, yeah, to get you some resaults off the bed.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
But the underrated part of that sequence is when you
see Zendia hearing all of this happening and like laughing
from behind the door and then pulling it together in
time for the door to open.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
It's so good cinema, so powerful.

Speaker 4 (29:16):
I just I just love how thirsty they are for
her the entire time. It's just like it's just like, yes,
actually you should be thirsty for her.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
One of the hottest people ever to be alive.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
And just cool. Like I think also what makes the
Tashi character work is that Zandia is cool. Like Zendeia
has like that quality of her that makes her seem
intense and then also just like high glamots like, yes,
this totally makes sense.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
An icon, Yeah, it's true. Okay. So she's in their
hotel room. They're kind of flirting. She asks if they've
ever hooked up with each other, and they're like, well, no,
but no, we learned that Patrick taught Art how to

(30:04):
jerk off.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
Okay, so we have the top bottom established, got it,
got it, got it?

Speaker 4 (30:11):
Just just boys being boys, you know.

Speaker 3 (30:14):
Yep, I love being a teenager who does not yet
realize you're bisexual. You're just like, no, that was just
like a weird thing that happened.

Speaker 4 (30:24):
Was I just taught my homeboy how to jerk off,
Like someone has to do it, right, So.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
I was like no, me and my best friend would
just practice kissing to Madonna's American Life, Like it's just
sort of like so we would know how to kiss
when boys wanted to kiss us.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
We just trying to keep warm in the wintertime, and
you keep warm by snuggling and making out like obviously obvious.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
Just girls being girls, Yes, Okay. So then Tashi sits
on the bed and beckons for them to join her,
and they leap at the opportunity. She kisses Art, then Patrick,
then back to Art and back and forth, and then
there's a three way kiss which she backs away from.

(31:12):
So now it's just Art and Patrick making out and
she's loving this again. The look on her face, Oh oh,
it's gorgeous. It's just beautiful.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
And I did not know so that is not in
the original script written by the potion Master. The potion
Master himself, the Passion Master himself. This was insisted upon
by queer icon Luca Guadnina, who said, who had a
very Italian way of describing why this needed to happen.

(31:44):
This is from an interview with the potion Master. Luca
felt it was very important that in any love triangle
all the corners touch, and I quickly realized.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
He meant it literally.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
I was like, oh, that's so Italian, that's beautiful.

Speaker 4 (32:00):
Let him remake the Twilight movies.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
Let the tips touch, is what Luca said.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah. So they're making out and Tashi is loving it,
and then she goes to leave and they're like, well,
what about your number? And she says, whoever wins the
match they're competing against each other in the following day
will get.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Her number, because at the end of the day, what
Tashi Duncan wants to have sex with is Tennis's tennis. Yes,
and that is why she can never fully be satisfied
and it is an incredible it's so cool.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Okay, Then we cut to their match. They are both
desperate to win so as to get Tashi's number, but
before we know the result, we cut back to Phil's
tire Toalne Challenger. Although it's a few days before the
match where Patrick and Art each other. Patrick is on

(33:03):
Tinder swiping right on everyone because we learn that he
needs a place to sleep. That night, he gets a
match and goes on a date. He surprise kisses this date,
and I do not like the way that is handled.
But at the bar he sees Tashi and she's like,

(33:25):
what the fuck are you doing here, so we learn
that oops, they're not on good terms. We flash back
to thirteen years prior after the one on one match,
which apparently Patrick won, because now Art is prying for
details about whether or not Patrick and Tashi have had sex,
and Art says, if you do serve the ball like

(33:49):
I do, because he has this specific serving habit, and
if they didn't have sex, Patrick should just serve it
like himself because the whole thing here is Tashi was like,
I don't tell anyone that we're fucking because I'm embarrassed
to do what seems Yeah, I do.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
Think it's kind of funny that she does seem to
be like a deal is a deal. I guess you're
my boyfriend now, Like, well, you didn't have to honor that,
but you.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Did date the fuck boy first. She well, she I
think she uses men to vicariously have sex with them
so that she can feel like she's having sex with
tennis with tennis. So she keeps Patrick around.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
And this is where Tashi Duncan and my Sonny have
a lot in common in that way. Yeah, you can't
just have sex with a tennis ball, so you have
to figure out how else can you satisfy exactly.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah, you have to find a human conduit by which
you can have sex with tennis. And that's what Tashi
is doing the whole movie. Okay, then Patrick serves it
like Art serves the ball, indicating that Patrick and Tashi
did indeed have sex, and Art is jealous.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
No, he's fine, He's fine, that's this whole thing. He's like,
that's fine. Actually, he's so like clenched spiritually.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, yep. Then it is twelve years prior to the present,
so it's like a year after the boys have met Tashi.
Tashi and Art are both at Stanford on tennis scholarships.
It seems they're pals, though Tashi and Patrick are still dating,

(35:34):
much to Art's dismay because it's clear that he is
absolutely in love with her. Then Patrick comes to campus
to visit Tashi, but first he's hanging out with Art.
They're sitting very close to each other eating churros parentheses phallic. Yeah,
they're they're not.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
You know, it's not subtext, it's just text text. Anytime
these guys are eating there, it's it's a full dick.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Oh it's bananas. Oh, it's true's I'm surprised they don't
eat a hot dog.

Speaker 4 (36:07):
And they take a bite out of each other, like
like that's love, that's that's an indirect kiss.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, that's them making out again. Basically, Patrick senses that
Art is still into Tashi and that he's trying to
get in between them and like kind of break them up.
And Patrick is like.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
He's kind of like turned on by this.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
He's like he's like, honestly, this is hot and it's
making you a better tennis player. Tashi is also turned
on sexually and athletically by this love triangle situation. There's
a scene where she's trying to coach Patrick, who seems
to have just like I don't think he's in college.

(36:50):
I think he went straight to pro. And then we
start to see this the beginning of this sort of
like domb sub dynamic that she's projecting, where she is
the dom and she wants to coach men, tell them
what to do, tell them how to play tennis, and
she wants a submissive man to be receptive to that.

(37:13):
Trouble is, Patrick is not into it, so they argue
and then he leaves. Tashi goes to her match, where
she's playing great until this is when she very badly
injures her knee and Art, who is at the match,
runs to her side. Patrick shows up once he has
heard what happened, but Tashi and Art send him packing,

(37:38):
and now it's Tashi and Art together.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
It's so interesting how like, I don't know on this
rewatch there whatever in this specific way that like someone
who knows you as you're growing up can just clock
you and clock your intentions in ways that people you
meet as an adult kind of can't no matter how
close you are to them. Patrick, while a huge asshole,

(38:04):
is really good at knowing what people are up to and.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
Just saying it.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
Because what he says to Art a few scenes earlier
of like, I know, it's like not your style to
just make a move. You're just gonna hang out in
the sidelines until I fuck up, and then you're gonna
swoop in, which is exactly what happens.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
This third eye is so open. It's like he's like
he's like he only uses it for evil, evil and sex.
That's it's like, I can do two things, three things
really well, and none of them are constructive to my
men's wealth.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Right, But like he he at different points, like especially
with Art, because they're you know, the boner boys from boarding.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
School or whatever. The Jerkoff Brothers.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yeah, the Jerkoff Brothers, disgusting brothers. They're the disgusting brothers. Farness,
they're the disgusting brothers. But with Tashi too, like he
much later in the movie pretty much states the state
of her marriage after witnessing it for like twelve seconds,
and you're like, oh, well, you're not wrong.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
It's all true.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
And that's the worst part. There's nothing worse than your
ex being right about your life. You're like, shut up,
you don't know me, hot dog man.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Meanwhile, meanwhile, sometimes you get clocked.

Speaker 3 (39:24):
You get clocked by the hot dog man.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah. Then we get another quick glimpse of the Phil's
tire Town match between Art and Patrick, because the movie
again keeps periodically cutting back to this. Then we flash
back to the aftermath of Tashi's injury. She is recovering,
she's practicing with Art, but her game is not what

(39:46):
it used to be. It's pretty clear that her tennis
career is over, as is her relationship with Patrick, and
again Art is there to console her. Then we to
three years after that. Tashi is now coaching tennis. Art
is a rising star. He suggests she be his assistant

(40:09):
coach and she's like, well, what about how you're in
love with me? And he's like, TIHI, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
Also, this all happens at an Applebee's, which is great.

Speaker 4 (40:19):
Yes, we love the representation of the working classes, like.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
We sure do. And then he's like, hey, what if
we kiss? And she responds by going and they're making out.
Then we cut back to tire Town timeline. A little after,
Tashi and Patrick have run into each other and he

(40:47):
approaches her to be like, will you be my coach?
And she says, okay, here's my coaching. Quit tennis, you bitch.
And they talk a little bit about her relateationship with Art,
how she clearly resents him, and then Patrick asks if

(41:07):
Art knows about Atlanta and we're like, hmm, what happened there?
We flash back to eight years prior in Atlanta, where
Art and Tashi are because he's competing in the Atlanta Open,
as is Patrick. And during the tournament, Patrick runs into
Tashi late at night when she's having a drink at

(41:29):
a bar.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
And he's also wearing her shirt because it's a shirt
she is wearing in college that he's clearly hung onto,
the shirt that says I told you, oh wow, shows
up at the hotel wearing on her shirt and you're like, oh,
he's such a slug. Yeah, he really is. He's really
testing the boundaries. I love him. He's so easy, Like

(41:53):
the fuck, I hate him, love it, I hate him,
but I love him.

Speaker 4 (41:57):
Oh God, I'm so powerful.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
They start kissing, and then a little later Art sees
the two of them, not while they're kissing, but they're
like close and cozy. He gets distracted for a moment
and when he looks back, they are gone. It seems
like they've left together. And I believe the implication is
they go to have sex with each other.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
Yeah, and Art pretends he does not see it. He's
that's kind of his mode.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
He's like my femdom wife or I think fiance at
this point can do whatever she wants and I can't
say a damn thing about it.

Speaker 4 (42:36):
And it's true, you really can't.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
That's the arrangement.

Speaker 4 (42:40):
You get what you pay for.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
We cut back to the night before the Art Patrick
match at the tire Town Challenger. Art tells Tashi that
he wants to quit tennis soon, that he's tired and
worn out, but he also wants thealidation one way or
another from Tashi, because again, that's his whole thing, constantly

(43:05):
seeking validation from her. He's like, hold me until I
fall asleep, mommy.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
And she does kind of the opposite of that.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
She does for a little bit, but this makes her
absolutely despondent. So after Art falls asleep, she links up
with Patrick to tell him that she wants him to
lose tomorrow so that Art will have the confidence to
keep playing. And Patrick is like, fuck you, I'm pretty
sure you came here tonight to have sex with me,

(43:37):
and she's like, no, I didn't. And then he's like, yes,
you did, and she's like maybe. And then as they're
sort of arguing about this, and also she spits in
his face.

Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yeah. She also has like slapped him earlier this like
earlier in the day, like for the week. Everyone is
getting off on all of this.

Speaker 4 (43:56):
It's so toxic.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yeah, yep. So she spits in his face. She storms away,
but then she turns back around and they start passionately
making out. They have sex in his car, and it
seems like the agreement is basically because she fucked him,

(44:19):
he will agree to lose the following day to Art.
We cut back to the end of the match. It
is neck and neck. It's unclear who will win. It's
unclear whether or not Patrick will honor this agreement. Patrick
is about to serve and then he does the callback

(44:39):
to the thing that we saw earlier in the movie,
which is that he serves the ball like Art does,
indicating that he and Tashi recently had sex.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
Everyone in my theater gasped when this happened. It was
like a miseral line.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
And Art is shook to his very core. Yeah, Patrick
stars again. He wins the match, but there's one match left,
a tiebreaker.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
I do love the Wikipedia summary for this. They say
during the tie break, Art and Patrick furiously trade ground strokes.
And you're like, oh, yeah, okay, the strokes.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
The jerk off brothers strike again, you know when you're
you know, and the discussing brothers are furiously trading strokes.

Speaker 4 (45:34):
Oh my god, they put they put a little dot
on each other's head to be like, I choose.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
I I would describe it as them volleying back and forth.
But what do I know.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
I mean, there's a hornier way to say that. And
one and one disgusting Wikipedia user did sound.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
The way yeah, and I U. They're doing this. They're
getting closer and closer to each other, and eventually they're
so close that Art jumps up and then kind of
lands on Patrick and they're hugging. And then also Art

(46:17):
won the match. Just now because we cut to Tashi
and she's very, very happy, and that's how the movie ends.
So let's take a quick break and we'll come back
to discuss.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
And we're back, and we're back, I mean hard to
beget princess guests choice, Where would you like to start?

Speaker 4 (46:51):
Oh my god?

Speaker 3 (46:52):
So we furiously trade ground strokes throughout this discussion.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
What is podcasting? What is a conversation if not.

Speaker 4 (47:01):
But groundstroking over the air into your ears? You know.
I think one thing I was thinking about in preparation
for this specific conversation. I know we'll get into, like
if it passes the Bechdel test later, but I wonder

(47:22):
what you guys feel about Tashi being often the sole
woman in the room aroung these two men, because I
feel like that in itself is like this interesting conversation
because she is arguably the most talented of the three
of them, but she's also the most marginalized, and that

(47:42):
really sort of plays into her relationship to both of them,
because she is sort of between these two white men,
who are, you know, gonna get more opportunities than her
no matter how talented she is, And then with her injury,
she kind of ends up having to almost lean on them.
It's like an interesting dynamic between her and the two boys.

(48:04):
And I find that, besides the sexiness of it. I
find it just like narratively compelling.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Yeah, I agree, I feel like I And this was
something that I was like because I watched your video,
did a bunch of tennis research, and then rewatched Challengers
because I was trying to like take the horny gauze
off of my previous viewings of it. And you said
something in your video that really stuck with me, which

(48:31):
is that we really only see Tashi once that isn't
in a scene with one of the guys. This is
definitely not true for the guys. We see the guys
together alone a number of times, which is why I
think they are ultimately kind of the protagonists of the movie,
even though Tashi is the central figure. But the only

(48:51):
time I think that we see Tashi without one of
them is when she's alone on campus after she's been injured.

Speaker 4 (49:00):
The tree crying. Yeah, yes, that's.

Speaker 3 (49:02):
The only time we see her certainly alone, but also
like without one of the guys. That and like the
moment she gets back from having sex with Patrick. But
that's only a couple seconds really, And it's interesting because
it's it's I don't know, I she's such a compelling

(49:23):
figure and because the focus of the movie is so
on the triangle, we don't really get an idea of
I don't know like that. I think it comes through
in the performance who she is outside of this dynamic,
but we don't get to see very much of that.
Although I guess you could say the same for the guys,
but they have the pre existing relationship. I don't know. Yeah,

(49:44):
but it really struck me that that is the only
time we see her by herself.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
It does make you wonder does she have any friends
who are women, any tennis players, like athletes who are
women that she is buds with. Makes you wonder what
she's like as a mother. We see a tiny, tiny
glimpse of it when they're talking about Spider verse, but

(50:12):
aside from that, we see very very little of her
interactions with her daughter. We see a few interactions with
Tashi and her mother, who seems to be present in
the story because she is the caretaker of their daughter, right,
But yeah, we really don't see I mean, this movie
is just so hyper hyper focused on tennis and this

(50:34):
love triangles, the threuple situation or what should be a thruple,
and it just doesn't really dedicate any time to anything else,
And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, Like a lot
of stories are very hyper focused on a specific thing.
But I feel like there was still room for giving

(50:55):
us a little bit more of a glimpse into like
what else, Like even if it just told us is
something something as simple as what was her major? Because
she even says like, I'm going to college because I
want to learn things and I want to take classes
and I don't want my only skill in life to
be hitting a ball with a racket. But then the

(51:16):
movie doesn't bother to tell us, well, what is she pursuing?

Speaker 3 (51:19):
Well, I do think, so I'm so on the fence
about this, and I want to know what you think
about it, Princess, because it's like that's that is definitely true.
And then I also kept like second guessing myself because
there is a lot we learn in passing and through
the performance, where like that line I don't want to
just only know how to hit a ball with a
racket is called back later when she's at the Apple

(51:40):
Bees with Art and she says, well, it turns out
all I know how to do is hit a ball
with a racket. And so it's like she does eventually
kind of resign herself to the idea. And I don't
think like unhappily, but like she is like that tennis
is the thing she cares about. It's not like she's
being forced to remain there. She wants to be there. Yeah,

(52:01):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (52:02):
I think that there's almost like a classic film quality
to the movie in a sense where like the actor
is giving backstory through their performance of it all. Yeah,
And I think that is effective. And I think also
if you know anything about women's tennis, there's a lot
of just sort of like a lot of things happening

(52:24):
up beneath the surface because the reality is that like
you don't really see a lot of women tennis friendships
that are like of the same generation. Like there usually
is like the older person is kind of like the
mentor figure and then the younger person's like the up
and comer, and that's the dynamic.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
Like I was thinking about how like Billy Jean King's
relationship with the Williams Sisters and like stuff like that. Yeah,
it's like more of like a mentor mentee kind of deal.

Speaker 4 (52:47):
Yeah, like in the Williams Sisters with like you know,
Cocoa Golf, and like Maioi Osaka, it's like there isn't
a lot of like general like rivalry tends to be
the thing that gets the more attention than like and
ship heated rivalry, and so there's this aspect of in
a certain way, it makes sense that Tashi has no

(53:08):
female friends because everyone is her rival, because there is
no room to like, she doesn't have like a sister
to be her doubles partner, and she's not doing doubles,
so there is no space for her to be And
it's also just very white in general, and so there
isn't there's always going to be contrasting things happening, and

(53:29):
I think that is like the subtext of a lot
of Tashi's experience, and it's clear from reading interviews that
that is what they were bringing to that character. But
what I do think is always an interesting question and
not necessarily criticism, is like how much of that is
known can be absorbed by the audience that doesn't have

(53:49):
this background knowledge of this sport, right because.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
The movie doesn't delve into any of that explicitly. I mean,
I learned so much about it from your video where
you talk about like the context of a character like
Tashi coming up in the era that she does as
a black woman tennis player in the wake of Serena
and Venus Williams before them Althea Gibson. But if you

(54:16):
don't already know that context, it's not like the movie
tells you any of it.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
So right, and it's like and it's hard because it's like,
I don't know, like I was having. It's part of
why this movie is so challenging because it's not like
the movie is giving you that context for men's tennis.
It's not giving you any context. It's just throwing you
in and being like, so you've seen a tennis match, YadA, YadA,

(54:43):
it's a metaphor for sex. But but yeah, I feel
like with Tashi specifically because potion Master did say specifically
that he he wrote, you know, like this was not
written for a white woman, and was later you know like, oh, well,
Zenda is interested, so now Tashi Duncan is a black woman.

(55:05):
Tashi Duncan was always written as a black woman. I'm
going to quote Postmaster Harry said, Tashi was always a
black woman. Patrick was always a well to do Jewish guy,
and Art was always a somewhat well to do wasp,
and so these characters were very clearly specified in the
original script, and I think that that does again like

(55:26):
come through. But like you're saying, princess, I think primarily
in the performance, there's a few lines of dialogue that
could give you some insight into it that I think
you shouted out in your video as well. Of when
they're about to have the big awesome kissing scene, the
two guys are talking about how they were boarding school roommates,

(55:47):
and they're like, did you go to boarding school trying
to be like just rich kids hanging out? And she
was like, well, no, we couldn't afford it, and even
if we could have, my parents wouldn't have wanted me
in that environment. There's one offline where she's talking about
the girl she was playing tennis against when we first
see her, who she says pretty offhand, she's like, oh,

(56:10):
she's you know, don't feel bad for her. She's a
racist bitch.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
It's fine.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
And like her character is.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Very both very specific and very left open to interpretation.

Speaker 4 (56:24):
And I think that's interesting because it kind of reminds me,
in like an odd way of like Pacific rim and
how like when you have a woman of color in
a role that is not traditionally where we see women
of color. How then, does that change the way that
we operate in terms of like traditional feminist critical lens,

(56:46):
which while should be all encompassing, does tend to lean
towards white womanhood because I think if Tashi were a
white woman, we might be having different conversations about it,
but she isn't, and that's intentional, and that creates other
layers of conversation between everyone involved, which I just think
it is just inherently interesting, Like I think that it's

(57:07):
interesting to deal with the film that doesn't want to
tell you everything, but has so much in the background
of its intentionality that you can't help but want to
pull on more threads of it. So I don't think
if it is like a failing of Challengers, but I
do think it's something that I think got overlooked to
a certain degree, and that's why it got ignored when

(57:29):
it came to like a lot of awards stuff, because
it is a really rich film, but I feel like
people only saw the horniness and all of the kind
of like even within that holiness, any sort of like
commentary of like it's not as if Patrick is openly bisexual,
you know, like it's not as if he's flamboyant about
it and how that would impact his career and all

(57:49):
those other things are there, but they're not the main
focus in the way that the relationship.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Is absolutely yeah, like rewatching it with my hornygog off
and my context goggles on there. Again, it's just like
a passing moment with Patrick where he's on Tinder or
whatever app like swiping, and it's like people of all
genders are showing up, but he hesitates before swiping right

(58:16):
on a man. So it's like it just in a
gesture communicates like he is bisexual, but he still hasn't
like really come to terms with that. And then with Tashi,
one of the things that I really appreciated was left
open ended, and I'm curious what you both think about
it is that she is a mom who seems like

(58:40):
a caring mom, but her role as a mother is
not harped upon, and it seems like she is like
not her child's primary caretaker. And I didn't feel that
the movie was judging her for that. And I've very
rarely seen, you know, a central woman who has kids

(59:00):
that like motherhood isn't a main element of her character,
and this movie does not really prioritize that for either
of them. I mean, we see that, like clearly they
love their child, you know, Lily. I don't know what
kind of kid does Lily grow up to be growing
up in hotels with her grandma. I don't know, but

(59:21):
I appreciated that, you know, in a societal landscape that
is very quick to judge mothers and rarely, if ever
judges fathers, it seems like this is just a dynamic
that is presented without judgment, and then you, as the viewer,
can just make of it what you will.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
I think there are many examples of Tashi being presented
in a way that we do not often see women
represented on screen, in a way that the movie does
not pass judgment on her, similar to what you're talking about, Jamie.

(59:59):
A few examples are there's the scene where she and
Art are at Stanford. She is dating Patrick, but Art
is clearly in love with her. He's trying to break
them up, and he says something like he's not in
love with you, and she stops in her tracks and

(01:00:21):
kind of slowly turns around and comes back, and we
are conditioned to think that a woman being told that
a man isn't in love with her will make her
be like, oh my god, oh no, this is devastating.
I can't be with someone who doesn't love me. But instead,
she says, what makes you think I want someone to
be in love with me? Did I ever say I

(01:00:42):
was in love with him? And he's like, no, you didn't,
And she's like, well, so why would I give a
fuck if he loved me or not? And he says like,
don't you think you deserve it?

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Like, which is he's being so I never like really
listened to that line in contacts before. He's being so
manipulative there, he's doing a thing that like male feminists
do or they're like you deserve better, girl, and by
better I mean me specifically.

Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
It's so manopulia, And that's the thing. I think. That's why,
like there's a lot of bias between like people who
like are and people who love Patrick. You know. Unfortunately
the dirt bag with the huge penis Lend's out like
I'm sorry, like at least he's a dirt bag. He
lives in his car, but he's funny and he's not
and he's not trying to like soft launch a relationship

(01:01:30):
while I'm with someone else through myn emotional manipulation. He
just won the tennis match like an adult.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
I get it. I get it, like it's I don't know,
you can't win right where it's like having because in
Tash scenes with Patrick, it's like he is not on her.
I mean, neither of these guys are on her level remotely,
but Patrick, I think, is able to like scratch an
itch that she needs, which is someone who is going
to like challenge her and challenge her. Yeah, challenge her.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Wow, challenge hers.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
Okay, we're actually recording this on International Women's Day and
that was really impactful. Challenge her.

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Wow, I'm with, challenge her.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
I'm with.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
But he is like willing to have an argument with
her in a way she seems to want, but not
in a long term way. She does want a sub
at home, but she does want to have a guy
to argue with who has a huge dick and is
a mess And you're like, yeah, which hard to have
all these things at once.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
It's a woman trying to have it all. But these
are also all of the ways in which we almost
never see women represented on screen. The fact that she
is way better at the sport that she plays than
the men around her, that she's like the best of everyone,
including all the men. The fact that she is kind

(01:02:56):
of using men to like live vicariously through them so
that she can still do tennis things. And I'm not
praising that as a good quality to have. Obviously you
should not use people. But my point is she has flaws,
she has layers. She can be messy, she can be calculating,

(01:03:19):
and we usually do not get to see a woman
portrayed in these types of ways in movies because normally
we see women who are either like perfect little angels
who would never make a mistake or do anything wrong,
or women who are given so little characterization that you
don't even know what choices they would make. So even

(01:03:42):
though Tashi is like not behaving well a lot of
the time, it's more interesting than the like nothing characters
we so often see with women in movies. So there's that.
There's the fact that she loves tennis more than she
will ever love any man, and like the men around

(01:04:03):
her do not know what to do with that exactly.
The fact that again, and I'm gonna keep harping on this,
like dom sub dynamic thing. It's not how we traditionally
think of dom sub dynamics in like the kink sphere,
but she is in her relationship with Art, the dominant
figure who is always telling him what to do, how

(01:04:27):
to play tennis, which tournaments he's gonna compete in. He
never pushes back, he just says, whatever you want, babe.
Also that scene, so there's a scene at the very
beginning where she's like, you're humiliating yourself. You need to
get your shit together, Like, let's have you do something
that you can win so that you can stop being

(01:04:48):
such a loser.

Speaker 4 (01:04:49):
Yea.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
And that scene ends with her han soloing him where
he's like, I love you and she's like, I know, and.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
He kind of loves that though he kind of love that.

Speaker 4 (01:05:01):
If it was easy, he wouldn't be there. And I
think that's sort of like what's interesting about their dynamic.
And I also love like to what you're saying, Caitlin,
I definitely feel like she resents the fact that, like,
I literally physically can't play this game anymore, and if
I could, I would, but I can't, and like and
now you're here crying about Oh, I think I want

(01:05:23):
to retire early I didn't get a chance to retire early.
You know, I didn't get a chance to even go
as far as I knew I was capable of. And
so I think part of why she finds both of
them frustrating is like, these are two guys who cannot
use their privilege to do the thing that she could
do well with less of it. Yeah, it's like it's

(01:05:43):
like it's like it's exhausting. It's like, you guys have
money and ability and the physicality, and yet you just.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Won't right and your men and you're white.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
Exactly, and they're both from like well off families, and like,
I mean that is something that again like comes up
between Tashi and Art very early that I am able
to see how that is like dysfunctional for both of them,
where she is putting a lot of pressure on him
to do something he doesn't want to do anymore. He
says later, like bluntly, like I'm I know that I'm

(01:06:15):
playing for both of us. But there's a moment where
Tash is so understandably frustrated and she's like, I would
have killed for a recovery like yours, like, and she
is to some extent projecting onto him of like you recovered,
so you have to keep going. And it's I don't know,
like I if there was one thing I wish I

(01:06:36):
we had more of in this movie is like Tashi
is having to fight against so much. She's not just
fighting against massage noir that exists within this sport, She's
also fighting against her own body and like the frustration

(01:06:57):
that comes with that, and how that clearly that is
such a big turning point in her life, that and
and and in that same opening sequence again, it's like
all these like little things that they add in that
could be a full movie, but it's just like a
shot in Challengers where she is it kind of was

(01:07:18):
like giving Victoria and David Beckham to me where there's
like that we're work what but that we're like that
big like ad, that billboard ad that she's editing to
reflect that she is a part of it. So she
even though it is like not a central focus, you
can tell that the world is trying to frame her

(01:07:41):
as someone's wife and not Tashi Duncan, and she is
like having to quietly or loudly push back against that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
And I don't know, there's just like so.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
Many little things that come through and like Zendia should
have been nominated for everything for this, but no one
gets nominated for erotic thrillers, so it didn't happen. But
it just like she's doing so much and the script
is doing so much too of just like these little
moments that you're like, of course she is like a

(01:08:12):
ticking time bomb. It's all so fucking frustrating.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
No, And I definitely feel like I think it's interesting
because like when did Baby Girl and like all those
kind of movies start coming out, because I feel like
now we're in this place.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Where everyone around the same time, right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
Around the same time, right, yeah, late twenty twenty four
was when Baby Girl came out, I think, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:08:32):
And I feel like we're just getting into this place
with the erotic thriller but also this ability to understand
eroticism and affection, and I think where like it's I
don't think it's a lazy comparison to be like, you know,
Heated Rivalry and Challengers like exists in a similar timeline,
and I think the Challengers came out a little bit
closer to Hated Rivalry. People might appreciate it a little

(01:08:55):
bit more because of how like sexually earnested. It is, like,
I think what's really sweet about Art. I think there's
a sweetness to Art and Patrick's relationship that makes it
also really captivating. Like I love Tashi in between both
of them. But I also think like that that three
way kiss is so compelling because it's like it goes

(01:09:18):
on for a while. It's not like it's not like
they see it happen. They're like, oh that's good. They're
like they're going forward, they lean into it, they're going
into it, and it's just like the potential.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
And they have to know that they are kissing each
other and that Tashi is not involved.

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
Yeah, I also had canon. I think they're lying in
that earlier in the scene where they're like they you know,
it's convenient to have the disgusting Brothers jerk off story
to support it, but I'm like, they've kissed before. That
wasn't the first kiss I was looking at over there.
It was phenomenal these boys and they're basically sort of

(01:09:56):
kissing at the end, and Tashi is sort of like whatever,
as long as because you're playing good tennis while doing
whatever you're doing, I'm not bothered by it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
Again, they they should just be in a thrupple. I
mean you mentioned this in your video, Princess, about how
all of these characters like should have read the Ethical
Slut and didn't. But like if they just embraced the
fact that Tashi wants to have sex with both of them,

(01:10:27):
because that's how she has sex with Tennis. Art and
Patrick want to kiss each other and maybe more because
there's all these moments of homo eroticism throughout the movie.
There's a part where like Patrick puts his hand on
Art's knee.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
While it's awesome, there is.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
There's like the mutual stretching that they do where they're
embracing each other. There's the truro eating scene where they're
sharing churros and everything they eat is phallic. Yeah, just
like all all these moments of physical closeness between them.

Speaker 3 (01:11:04):
Well, and it's also not a mistake that like their
big confrontation at the Challenger is where they're both completely
naked and a sauna, Like the movie is not subtle.

Speaker 4 (01:11:15):
And apply a towel over it. It's like, we know
you guys are doing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
Patrick comes in dick out, He's like, you know what
this is?

Speaker 3 (01:11:25):
So he's like, so about how I'm fucking your wife, Like,
oh my god, they're such babies. I think that that
is like, I think all three of them kind of
do treat these relationships like a game, but the way
that they do is so specific to who the character is,
where Patrick is still kind of being a teenager, Like

(01:11:46):
it's I don't know these three, these three who knows
what the hell is going on with them? But I
but I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
I love to watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:54):
I love whatever the hell's going on here.

Speaker 4 (01:11:57):
I wish I could just trade like Aporia season three,
Let's just do Challengers season one, Let's just go right there.

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
Oh it would be so good. Another I mean, just
speaking to it is all these like little moments, but
how it does seem like Patrick in art genuinely in
different ways want Tashi's validation. Another moment that I picked
up on in this most recent watch was after she
and Patrick have sex in his car the night before

(01:12:29):
the Challenger or like the finals, he starts getting very
like postcoital affectionate with her, and he's like, I miss
watching you. Do you play tennis? You're so beautiful? And
she's like, so anyways, tennis, Like, let's talk about my
true love speaking of what I care about, Like she
just doesn't care. And I love their confrontation when she

(01:12:53):
with her bob and her sweater. It's just so great
where she says, to his face, you look like shit.
She she calls him out directly for cosplaying as a
poor person. You know, she says, like, your dreams are shit,
your garbage, and he, you know, Patrick can take shit

(01:13:14):
like that in stride, which I think is appealing to Tashi.
He seems to kind of get off on being called
a piece of shit. A lot of rich guys are
like that. But he he like gives it back to
her to say way they they did when they were
in a relationship together, and it's like, well you don't
you don't love your husband and he just wants to
eat a cheeseburger and take a nap and you hate
him for that, and she's like, well so what shrug.

Speaker 2 (01:13:38):
I know, like her dynamic with Patrick is that he's
a brat and she's like his brat tamer. And then
with Art it's he's a simp and she's just like, yeah,
do whatever I say.

Speaker 3 (01:13:53):
You can't.

Speaker 4 (01:13:54):
I mean, it just so toxic. How it's just like
he's he's like, you don't love your husband, and she's like, well,
you should kill yourself. And I was just like, WHOA,
legendary really elated. She took it. She took it to hell.
He's like when they go low, I'm going to the
Winter Earth. That's like, you know, if you improve your game,
be in the ground. I was like, whoa.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
It was wild.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
But she and then on the other end, like another
moment with Art that I kind of forgot about that
I was like, oh my gosh, these three are so broken.
Where she leaves to cheat on him but also sort
of be his manager in a way in a like
she's sort of at works, sort of not when she's

(01:14:40):
having sex with Josha Connor, but she comes back and
he's just like sleeping next to their daughter, and that
you don't know, that really got me this time. I'm like, oh,
he just needs to feel loved.

Speaker 4 (01:14:51):
He does.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
He just wants to be held tenderly until he falls asleep.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
And she does that. She like pats him on the
back for three minutes and she's like, so I have
to go. How secks with your roommate.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
She's like, you're not a pile of tennis balls. So
I'm not really interested in holding you very much exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
Yeah, one thing I wanted to touch on that I
do think that we do have because this movie is
so hyper focused on the love triangle, and I do
think we this is the love triangle. We're used to
saying two men and a woman, not two women and
a man. But because this happens in the world of tennis,
I just wanted to touch on a Dazed article that

(01:15:34):
came out around the release of this movie by Helena
Jabrill that is specifically about women who are athletes and
their bodies. The name of the piece as Challengers missed
an opportunity to spotlight female athletes bodies, so I just
wanted to share it a little bit from that. It
is not a criticism of Zendeia. I think it's more
criticism of the fact that because there is really just

(01:15:56):
one woman athlete we get to see and know in
this movie, we lose an opportunity to explore a very
common criticism of women in sports, and also specifically Black
women in sports, which is the hyperfixation on their bodies historically.
So to share a piece of that. While watching Challengers,

(01:16:19):
I wondered why Tashi's body didn't resemble other young tennis
stars we know from real life, from Cocoa Goff and
Naomi Osaka to the young Serena and Venus Williams, all
women who help shape the character of Tashi. These sportswomen
have a more muscular and broader physique than Tashi. Challenging
idealized notions about what women should look like, even those
in Daa's portrayal of Tashi is impressive. Challengers would have

(01:16:40):
been more interesting visually and textually if the object of
Art and Patrick's desires was a woman who stood in
opposition to idealize femininity rather than conforms to it, as
so many women in sport do. From the racist redicule
that was always leveled against Serena Williams because of her
dark skin and muscular body, to the questioning of Olympic
runner casters Men's gender because of all the high levels

(01:17:02):
of testosterone in her body, all women, but especially black
women athletes, have constantly been bullied and seen as less
desirable when their bodies and behavior go against traditional ideas
of femininity. Challengers had the opportunity to confront our normative
understanding of who and what is desirable in the same way.
The film presents an alternative and queer view of how
relationships can work. So it is like in a movie

(01:17:26):
that has three characters, it's not even like necessarily a criticism,
but I did think it was like an interesting perspective
to offer because women are constantly criticized for being too muscular.
And that's where Love Lies Bleeding comes in, where a
movie that came out the same year features a queer

(01:17:46):
relationship with Kristen Stewart and Katie O'Brien, and Katie O'Brien
is a you know, like a weightlifter who looks like
a weightlifter, a bodybuilder. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I don't know.
I thought it was an Seeing Peace and we.

Speaker 2 (01:18:01):
Got to cover that movie.

Speaker 4 (01:18:03):
Yeah, oh, I love that movie. That was also something
I thought about in the back of my mind because
I'm like, I get what they picked Zendaya because that
is like a star. And also Zindaa is not the
kind of actor who you necessarily can gain like a
whole amount of muscle, even though I know she did

(01:18:24):
gain some for this movie, and so it's one of
those things. It's like it's like one of those caveas
where like I wish they had more background people that
did reflect that body type.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:18:32):
I think that that would have been like a nice
balance to have more people or like get Cocoa Golf
for a cameo or something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
Totally, totally, yeah, yeah, Like I do think there was
room for in a movie that is full of small
moments that really stick with you, small moments with another
woman athlete who doesn't look necessarily like Zendia or like
a Hollywood actor could have been cool.

Speaker 4 (01:18:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):
Yeah, I think the closest thing we get is that
scene where Tashi is playing at Stanford in a match
with I think a student from Pepperdine or something like that,
and the other student, who I believe is a white woman,
is like laboriously running back and forth and Tashi, by contrast,

(01:19:21):
is pretty stationary, implying that like this is effortless for Tashi.
She is like she is just crushing this woman and
the other woman is like having to work so much harder.
But that's kind of the only time we really see
another woman play tennis in the movie, and it's a

(01:19:42):
thin white woman, so it's again not doing anything to
challenger what we're talking about.

Speaker 3 (01:19:50):
That said, it is cool and worth mentioning that Zendia
is a top line producer on this movie. I love
when women are producing their own li movies and have
a say in how they are portrayed. I feel like
you can really feel that in this movie because we
like referenced this earlier. There is a lot and I

(01:20:12):
guess I can't put my finger on exactly why I'm
not bothered by this, but like there is a lot
of male gaze in this movie, but like not in
the way that we're used to seeing it. It's maybe
it's because it's like the simping male gaze and not
be like violent male gaze. I don't know what it is,
but because we do see things from Zendea's perspective as well,

(01:20:35):
like I mean, most iconically the shot of her watching
the boys making out, but like I don't know, yeah,
the perspectives, like the camera work in this is so
good and like horny and weird and thoughtful and a
bunch of other words as well.

Speaker 4 (01:20:52):
Yeah, I think this is the balancing of the equal
opportunity and also that Zendeia is a star that has
the power to say no to nudity, like if she
did not want to have that, I don't because she's
one of the few juds who's never been naked in Euphoria,
So I think that it kind of makes you feel
like she has power in it, kind of like with

(01:21:14):
poor Things, where it's like, is it a little gazy
at times? For sure? But because we know Zendia has
power in the industry, we can at least know that
if she felt uncomfortable, that she is someone who is
empowered to be like no, thank you totally.

Speaker 3 (01:21:31):
And yeah, then the fact that like the four producers
credited on this movie are three women, Amy Pascal, Zendia,
Rachel O'Connor, and a queer man Luca Guadnino. Like it,
I don't know, you just do get the feeling that
you are in good hands because the male gaze, I
don't know. I think we've been so conditioned to see

(01:21:53):
it to say that seeing male gaze shots is inherently
a bad thing, because it more often than not has
ben in movies. But this is I think an outlier,
and that like it is, you know, not completely useless
to see things from a male character's perspective. It's just
nice to not feel attacked by it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:15):
Yeah, and not everyone is getting a little bit of
it because it's like we see, we see like a
little hint of penin. We're never seeing anything more from
her that we don't see from another.

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
Man, right, I mean, I would argue that there are
shots of the two men that are more sexualized than
anything that we see of Tashi, especially in the final
sequence when Patrick and Art are getting closer and closer together,
they're dripping sweat. They're like, we get kind of isolated

(01:22:48):
shots of like their thighs and their arms and shoulders
and the muscles just pulsating and glistening, And to me,
that feels way more sexualized than anything that we see
of Tashi's body.

Speaker 3 (01:23:04):
And I think you could still argue that that is
a male gaze because I think, to me, that's them
looking at each other. That's not Tash. True, Tashi is
like thinking about tennis balls.

Speaker 2 (01:23:14):
Like she's like finally, yeah, so true.

Speaker 4 (01:23:19):
Yeah. I think that's what makes the whole movie so refreshing,
and what makes it truly erotic is that it's erotic
for everyone. If it's only erotic for like one participant,
Like again, all those tips need to touch.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
Yes, that's all tips of the triangle. It's like, Wow,
what a bar.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
They need to fold in on each other and touch exactly.
Can we talk about the marketing of this movie, which
is also something that you bring up in your video essay, Princess,
but the fact that there were there was at least
one trailer that positioned Tashi as the femme fatale, the villain,

(01:23:56):
the vindictive home wrecker, and and Nelly Furtado's man Eater
is playing and what a bop of a song. But
then you watch the movie and you realize, oh, that's
not what's happening. Maybe there are traces of it kind of,

(01:24:17):
but she's a far more complicated character than that. And
I think it's just that with marketing for movies, they
have to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible,
and this is kind of a hard movie to market,
if we're being honest. So they have to figure out, Okay,
what's the hook. How are we going to sell this
because what we have in Tashi is simply a confident

(01:24:39):
and dominant woman. But that's scary to people. Absolutely, people
don't want to watch a movie about that. So how
do we take the footage we have from the movie
and put a spin on it so that it's more
sellable and more marketable. Oh, we'll make her a vindictive,
manipulative woman.

Speaker 4 (01:24:58):
Yeah, I think it's interesting. Like both times, the first
time I watched a movie, I thought that she would
be in it more because of how heavily she is
like the face of this movie. Yeah, and I think
it's surprising how much it is about the boys because
of that, Which is not to say that she's not
an important character, Like you don't have to be in
every single shot to be important, because she's definitely like

(01:25:19):
haunting the narrative, so to speak. But it definitely like
surprised me that, like they're the ones who chase after her,
like in a lot of the sequences, like she's responding
to like like you know, they're serving the ball and
she's just serving it back at them, but at her
own speed. And I think it sometimes and I think

(01:25:40):
also because of the way that you know, fandoms will
make the female character the bad guy inherently, it's possible
to really flatten all of Tashi's nuance in the narrative
by just being like, well, she's in the way of
these two minutes, Like, no, those two men are in
the way of themselves.

Speaker 3 (01:26:00):
Yeah, everyone is like in the way, and sometimes the
world is in the way.

Speaker 4 (01:26:04):
Yeah, it's society.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
They live in a society.

Speaker 4 (01:26:08):
They live in a society, and I think, like that
is what's interesting about Like, yeah, it's the man eater.
Well sn M is a little bit later, but the
man eater thing is definitely very funny because I don't
think she's a man eater. I just think that she's
like hot and confident and they're overwhelmed by it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:26):
Right, It's like I don't I mean, we are led
to believe that she, in her adult life has had
sex with two people, and it's the two guys in
this movie. Right, I don't think she's a man.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
Eater necessarily, And if she is a man eater, she
is eating a man who wants to be eaten.

Speaker 4 (01:26:42):
Yeah, she's on a nye and it's very little carb. Yeah,
because it's like it's it's it's just these two boys.

Speaker 2 (01:26:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:26:49):
I think another great Tashi and Art moment where you're
just like, oh god, Art Art, Art buddy, where he's
like he's trying to take a stand and I and
I mean trying. He's trying to take a stand and
he's like, I'm quitting tennis. I'm sleepy. I don't like
it anymore. And then well and then she's like okay, fine,

(01:27:11):
and then he's he like tries to walk away from
the conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):
He's like, but what do you think?

Speaker 3 (01:27:15):
Is it okay?

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):
Are you mad? Do you love me?

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
And like he ough, yeah, buddy, I do think And
it's like in that way, I am kind of glad
that again it feels like equal across the three of
their backgrounds. We know enough to know, you know, at
least have an idea of why they are reacting to
each other the way that they are, but we don't
get a deep look into like what are their relationships

(01:27:41):
with their parents? What I mean, I think we know
the most about Tashi because we see a fair amount
of her mom, and it's.

Speaker 2 (01:27:48):
Very loving and care mutually respectful.

Speaker 3 (01:27:51):
It seems like a good relationship. But but that like
I don't know, like you can kind of like project
onto these three characters in any sort of way because
you're not given too much information about them. And I
think that that is something that is maybe a like
peak TV over correction that sometimes and I think that

(01:28:14):
like I've been guilty of this of like wanting to
know more than a movie is telling me, because I
think we're so used to having things over explained to
us now in a lot of movies where there could
be an entire side movie about one character you saw
for one second and one movie ten years ago, and
you know, like, this movie is not over explaining itself

(01:28:36):
to you in a way that I think it helps
and like is makes it better?

Speaker 2 (01:28:41):
Yeah? Yeah, does anyone have anything else they want to
talk about?

Speaker 4 (01:28:47):
I just I just love the soundtrack as well. I
think that's the one last thing I want to say
is it's like just like the way it goes like
like every time like the sound stops and then picks
up again, it's like electrifying. It's like, yeah, I just
the fact that just didn't get nominated for Best Score blasphemy,
Like that is just like a crime, a literal crime,

(01:29:08):
Like what were you guys doing? Were you on drugs
at the time? Please share with the clouds. So that's
the one thing I will say. I'm like, I have
no idea how they could have ignored that aspect of
anything about this film. It's so bizarre. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:29:22):
How many Yeah, how many soundtracks end up on like
people's regular rotation, and the Challenger soundtrack has definitely remained
in mind, and I think I'm very much not alone.

Speaker 4 (01:29:34):
Yeah, it's like it's to me. It's like this year
the soundtrack that I'm like a gog didn't get any
nominations is like a testament of Anilee and a couple
of years ago. It's so God, I am like the
biggest evangelical of that movie. I'm like, mother, Anne is so,
but I but I it has an amazing soundtrack, and

(01:29:54):
I think so does Challengers. I'm like, these are like
such great, great stories.

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
We should start our own awards.

Speaker 4 (01:30:02):
Exactly, we'll get it right.

Speaker 2 (01:30:05):
Yeah, obviously.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
Bechtel's test wise, this does pass a couple times.

Speaker 2 (01:30:12):
Obviously.

Speaker 3 (01:30:13):
There is one woman who is central to the narrative,
but she talks to her daughter. She talks to her mom.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
She talks to her daughter about into the Spider Verse.

Speaker 3 (01:30:21):
A fun little ZiT nod to Zendia's career, also Spider
Man background.

Speaker 4 (01:30:28):
Her husband does Spider things.

Speaker 3 (01:30:31):
I guess I've heard of her husband. He does spider things, right,
he seems nice.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
Yeah. Well, there's that line in this movie where Patrick
is like, I'm not some lapdog who's gonna sit around
and let you punish me. I'm not Art, But maybe
you need someone like that. Maybe you want someone who's
gonna be mister Tashi Duncan. And that it seems like
that is exactly what how she wants.

Speaker 3 (01:31:00):
Yeah, that is actually exactly what she wants. And I know,
just the man for the job.

Speaker 2 (01:31:06):
And she is Zendia and she has mister Zendia, and
so I think that's how she lives her regular life too.

Speaker 3 (01:31:13):
I don't thank God, who knows. We don't know, and
it's none of our business. And I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
Yeah, but yeah, she talks to her daughter, she talks
to her mother, talks to her mum, mostly about childcare stuff.
So yeah, these these interactions past the Bechdel test.

Speaker 3 (01:31:30):
There is one other woman in the movie that we
haven't chatted out but just deserved better. And that's Helen,
the woman who Art goes out a date with who
for Hella, who is not treated well. And I just
wanted to shout her out as a woman who I
hope wherever she is in this fictional world, I hope

(01:31:53):
she is well, and I hope she found someone who
could listen to her finish a sentence.

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):
Yeah, and doesn't surprise kiss her, which like, Okay, Patrick
is a complete dirt bag. He probably is the type
of man who would surprise kiss a woman. But also
I'm like, I don't know we did did we need
to see that in the movie. Couldn't we have seen
him asking for consent? He can still be a dirt
bag about it, but.

Speaker 3 (01:32:16):
Yeah, I feel like that is almost like used as
a tool to contrast him in Art in a way
that almost wasn't necessary because Art is like mister consent.
He like in the Appleby's Parking Lite, He's like, so
I really want to kiss you, but I'm afraid that
you have a feeling, and you're like he is like
mister consent. That's kind of he's he's he's hot for consent. Yeah,

(01:32:38):
his whole and that is like again just like sorry
to like start another converence, but like it's just so
thoughtfully like written and performed, where that is always who
Art is, like from the moment he meets Tashi, he's
always the one that's like, I really admire.

Speaker 2 (01:32:53):
Your game, Tashi.

Speaker 3 (01:32:54):
You're very you're a very tough like he even says
to Patrick when Tashi's not even there. He's like, come on, Patrick,
she's a very remarkable young woman, and you're right now Art.
I kind of love him.

Speaker 4 (01:33:07):
It's one of those things where like I hate it,
but I was like, that makes me so dry that
he just said that, like, not ironically, like I was
just like, no, he.

Speaker 3 (01:33:16):
Was alone with his boy and said, she is a
remarkable young woman. And I'm like, I go, you gotta
love art. You gotta love art.

Speaker 4 (01:33:24):
At least I didn't call her articulate. That would have
really fucked me up.

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
But yeah, what about our nipple scale? Though our scale
where we rate the movie based on examining it through
an intersectional feminist lens zero to five nipples. I think
because this is a movie that showcases a woman who

(01:33:55):
is I think, very complicated, very interesting, who is allowed
to be confident and dominant, and sure does she mistreat
some people along the way. Yeah, I'm not saying that
she's necessarily like someone to aspire to be, but also

(01:34:16):
I do aspire to achieve the level of dominance that
she has over men. I think I kind of struggled
with the Tashi character the first time I saw the
movie but when I rewatched it and sort of like
framed her character through that lens, I was like, wait
a minute, she's she's cooking, she's onto something. I think

(01:34:41):
I want to give this movie like I don't know,
I don't know. Is it three nipples? Is it four nipples?
Is it less? Is it more? This is a this
is a challenging one to rate.

Speaker 4 (01:34:54):
I'm going for I'm going for too.

Speaker 2 (01:34:57):
Yeah, Okay, me too.

Speaker 4 (01:34:59):
Yeah. I think I think I would give it four nipples.
And I'm only taking a nipple off because she's the
only woman of color and I think that, like besides
her own child, and I would have just liked for
her to have like another relationship to like one other
person of color that's not related to her.

Speaker 3 (01:35:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:35:17):
Yeah, So because of that, it gets four from an
intersectional lens. But I do think, like it's so refreshing
to watch a female character who's just behaving badly, like
Harper from Industry watches Challengers and just like this is
my inspo, Like I really love Tashi Dugan as a character,
and I think it's probably my favorite Sunday of performance

(01:35:39):
thus far because she really shows that she is a
movie star, but also has it in her to be
like this really complicated character actress.

Speaker 3 (01:35:50):
For sure, I'm gonna go for as well. I think
for the same reasons. I think that there was definitely
a room for a relationship with Tashi and another woman,
specifically a woman in tennis that would have been interesting.
But I don't know. I mean, it's like, she's such

(01:36:11):
an incredible character. I feel like Challengers is going to
be thought of as a classic in the future, and
it's just I don't know. I love seeing Zendaya like
sort of I feel like this was her real like
I I don't know, like straddling. She does technically play
a teenager in this movie, but she's also like, but

(01:36:32):
what you really want me to see is play a
woman who is my current age, and I just know
that she's gonna do so much amazing stuff. It weirdly
reminds me a little bit, and maybe I'm just looking
for an excuse to bring up one of my favorite movies,
but it reminds me a little bit of it Tanya,
which is I think, like Margaret Robbie's comparable moment of
like I'm producing my own movies. Now I'm playing the

(01:36:55):
character you've seen me play before and I'm doing this
other thing you've never seen me do. And I just
think that, like, we'll keep saying that from her and yeah,
it's it's it's a great movie. Thank you, Potion Master,
thank you Luca, than.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
You well, Princess, thank you so much for joining us,
Thank you for having me. Obviously you're welcome back anytime.

Speaker 3 (01:37:18):
Whatever you want you bring, you bring a very different
movie to the table every time.

Speaker 4 (01:37:22):
I know what how we collectic. I'm like, next, we're
gonna do Barry Lyndon for the boys.

Speaker 2 (01:37:30):
We got we gotta do something for this.

Speaker 3 (01:37:32):
I still haven't seen it. I know Candle's question mark,
That's what I know.

Speaker 4 (01:37:36):
I saw it in theaters with a friends with a
group of friends in Houston and it had the intermission
in the middle. Perfect way to see a movie. But yeah,
call me friend of your coop brooking and needs. I'll
I'm there for you, guys. Is emotional support.

Speaker 2 (01:37:54):
Where can people follow you? Check out your work plug away?

Speaker 4 (01:37:59):
Yay, thank you guys so much. I love being on here.
You guys can find me on YouTube, Princess Weeks. I
just had a recent video at about Weathering Heights. I
have a video coming out by the time this is
out about the Tragic Mulatto, which is really interesting and
very academically and I uh am there and I'm on
Blue Sky also Princess m weeks with one S for

(01:38:23):
Princess because I spelled my name wrong, but I thought
it gave it character, so I kept it. And uh yeah,
I'm just so happy to talk. I just missed talking
to you guys, so I'm just happy to do that
all day long.

Speaker 3 (01:38:37):
That's why we pod that. It is so nice to
used nice to hear your voice. And yeah, I don't know,
I feel like I see you all the time because
I have my notifications on for your channel.

Speaker 4 (01:38:50):
That's how I feel when I hear your voices. Of course,
I subscribe to the Matreon as everyone should. It's all
good financially forward women should do. And so sometimes I'm
going to bed and listening to you guys. I'm just like,
that's so right, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:39:05):
And speaking of listeners, if you're not already a Matron,
get over there the hell over there.

Speaker 3 (01:39:12):
That's where we're consistently abused by our biggest supporters.

Speaker 4 (01:39:17):
You're Tashie Duncans.

Speaker 3 (01:39:18):
Our Tashi Duncans are like talk about the Boondocks Saints.

Speaker 2 (01:39:23):
Doing and we we are ur Donaldson and we have
to say, oh yes.

Speaker 3 (01:39:28):
We're like, yes, mommy, we will talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:39:30):
The Boondock Saints.

Speaker 3 (01:39:32):
Yes. That's where. For five dollars a month you can
get access to two new exclusive episodes a month on
a theme usually if you're choosing, and access to over
two hundred episodes of back catalog. And it is true
that in the month of March we are doing movies
that feature Irish characters. And you all voted for the

(01:39:53):
Boondock Saints and wee beer. Oh, I have no one
but yourselves to blame, but not Barry Lyndon.

Speaker 2 (01:40:01):
Oh wow, yeah, oh my gosh. Well, uh yeah you can.
You can find us on our Matreon, Patreon, dot com
slash Bechdel Cast. You can also follow us on Instagram.

Speaker 3 (01:40:14):
And that's that.

Speaker 2 (01:40:16):
Shall we shall we hit the tennis courts and have
sex with tennis just like Tashi Doug.

Speaker 3 (01:40:26):
Yes, Bye bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production
of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by me Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 2 (01:40:37):
And me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by
Sophie Lichtermann and.

Speaker 3 (01:40:42):
Edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of them?

Speaker 2 (01:40:45):
That's me and our logo and merch and all of
our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus Ever
heard of her? Oh My God?

Speaker 3 (01:40:54):
And our theme song, by the way, was composed by
Mike Kaplan.

Speaker 2 (01:40:58):
With vocals by Catherine Voskrissy.

Speaker 3 (01:41:00):
Iconic and especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Ascevedo.

Speaker 2 (01:41:05):
For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash
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