Hedwig and the Angry Inch with Mia Schachter

This week, Jamie, Caitlin and special guest Mia Schachter go on tour with their band and discuss Hedwig and the Angry Inch (2001). And speaking of tours... don't forget to grab tickets to the upcoming Bechdel Cast Ten Year Anniversary Tour, starting with shows in the Northeast this October! Tickets at linktr.ee/bechdelcast

Follow Mia on Instagram at @consent.wizardry and check out their new book, How to Do Consent (Without Sounding Like a Robot) at https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/826772/how-to-do-consent-without-sounding-like-a-robot-by-mia-schachter/

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
in them.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Are all their discussions.

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The
patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Attention Bechtelcast listeners. We are going on tour.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
And we know we've been on tour many times over
the years. But guess what? This is a very, very,
very special tour that can only happen one time because
it is our 10 year anniversary. Oh, my God.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
We are doing a 10 year.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Whoops.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
We didn't dismantle the patriarchy. Anniversary tour. We're so excited. Yeah,
we want to really ring this anniversary in, in style.
So throughout the next year, we will be traveling around
the U.S. and Canada doing our 10-year anniversary celebration show.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
And we are starting. We are kicking it off in
the Northeast this October.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
With shows in New York City. Ever heard of it?
On October 12th. Baltimore, October 15th. Philadelphia, October 17th. State College,
October 18th, Pittsburgh, October 19th, and Boston, October 21st.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
Hell yes. If you do live in those areas and
you've been a long time Bechtel head, you will know
this is not a leg of our tour that we
have done since like 2019. It's truly been 84 years.
And I think the show has grown so much since then.
We are really going to go big. And because it's
so close to Halloween, we would highly encourage you to

(01:35):
dress up as your favorite movie character. We certainly will
be doing so. And as always, with the Bechtelcast live shows,
there will be exclusive merch. If you're a matron on
our Matreon, head over there to get a discount on
tickets and you get free merch at the show. And
it's just going to be a big celebration. I'm so
damn excited.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
There's going to be games, videos, a recap of the
Bechdel cast. You name it, we'll have it. I will
be interrupting. Please. You can buy tickets at Linktree slash Bechtelcast.
All of our ticket links are listed there.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
So if you're a longtime fan of the show, we
would love to meet you. We do meet and greets
after the show, and it'll just be a blast. So
we will see you there, Northeast, and see you rest
of the U.S. and also Canada very soon.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
See you there.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
The Bechtelcast. Hello.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Hello. Listeners of the Bechdel cast, you've tuned in to
the episode on Hedwig and the Angry Inch.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Cut to four elderly straight people.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
And we immediately walk them.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
I have a guitar. I could do it.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Oh, my gosh. If you would do the honors.

Speaker 4 (02:50):
I don't know if it's in tune, but maybe that
fits with the movie, actually.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
I would not say that what I just did could
be described as in tune. Okay, wait. Welcome to the Bechdelcast,
the podcast where we take a look at your favorite
movies from an intersectional feminist lens.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
My name is Caitlin Durante.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
My name is Jamie Loftus. But Caitlin, what the fuck
is the Bechdel test?

Speaker 3 (03:19):
It's a media metric created by friend of the show,
Alison Bechdel. First appearing in her comic collection, Dykes to
Watch Out For, in the 80s, has since become a
more mainstream media metric. There are many different versions of it.
The one that we use is, do two characters of
a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?
And is their conversation about something other than a man?

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Take it home.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Woo!

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yay!

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Applause, applause!

Speaker 2 (03:51):
And today we're talking about Hedwig and the Angry Inch, 2001,
John Cameron Mitchell. Yet another movie as we celebrate our
tenure that you'd think we would have covered it by
this time, but we're doing it today. And we have

(04:12):
an incredible guest. So let's get them in here. Let's
get them in the mix.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
Indeed.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well, actually, they've already been in the mix, unbeknownst to you.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Literally the mix, if we're talking about audio mixing. They
are an author, multimedia artist, and intimacy coordinator for TV, film,
and theater. It's their mission to make consent education as
digestible and widely available as possible so that you can
identify your desires, needs, and boundaries better. and authentically express

(04:41):
them to others in your own unique voice. And they
are the author of the book, How to Do Consent
Without Sounding Like a Robot, that comes out September 15th.
It's Mia Schachter.

Speaker 4 (04:53):
Hi.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Welcome.

Speaker 4 (04:55):
Hi, thank you for having me. I'm very, very excited
about this.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Oh, we're so excited to have you.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Thanks so much for being here. We would love to hear,
before we jump into the discussion, more about your book.
Tell us more about it.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
Sure.

Speaker 4 (05:09):
It's published by North Atlantic Books. It's coming out September 15th.
It's a book of essays and interviews about consent divided
by topic. So there's gender, sex, creativity, which I think
we'll end up talking about a lot today. I talk

(05:29):
about accountability and regret, what consent is and what it isn't. Yeah,
those are like the different parts within the book. And
then I have each part is punctuated by an interview
with someone who, you know, who's like niche realm relates
to that topic.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
Very cool.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Very excited to get into it. Well, we'll link it
in the description for all of our, for all of
our listeners. I feel like this is a, this is,
this is a perfect overlap. Well, with that, shall we
jump into Hedwig and the Angry Inch? What is your
history with this I guess film, stage production, whatever order

(06:08):
it came to you in.

Speaker 4 (06:09):
Okay, I think I saw this movie for the first
time in college. And I was blown away. I grew
up on Rent. Like that was a formative musical for me.
I was born in 1989. I was listening to that
soundtrack by the time I was like eight years old.
I had the whole thing memorized. And then I found

(06:31):
Hedwig and it felt so... kind of, you know, aesthetically
and like tonally related. And I loved how it was
sort of like a musician's musical, you know, like it's
not a full orchestra. There's like a rock band on
stage and it's about a musician and it was very

(06:53):
like indie, but just such a stunning story. And then
I worked at a coffee shop in New York, um,
a chain called Think Coffee and And I was serving
John Cameron Mitchell a triple espresso like most mornings.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
That's a very punk rock coffee order. I know.

Speaker 4 (07:15):
Well, and more punk rock, he was showing up in
a leather jacket with a motorcycle helmet.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
And then ordering a triple espresso? Okay, kind of terrifying.
That's awesome. I know.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
I know.

Speaker 4 (07:25):
But it was so exciting. I do think at some
point I worked up the courage to say, like, I'm
a big fan, you know? And then I guess, you know,
every time I've, like, been in, like, a new sort
of serious relationship, I've been like, we need to watch this. Like,
it's time to watch Hedwig, you know? It's like Romeo
and Juliet, the Baz Luhrmann version.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
A movie called The Apartment, which I also almost suggested.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
We've covered it before. It's amazing.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
One of my top, top favorite movies. Also so interesting
from like a consent perspective, especially like in the modern era.
And Hedwig. So it's just an iconic movie for me.
And then I also recently wrote and starred in and
produced my own musical. And it's very much, you know,

(08:11):
a child of Hedwig. Like, my musical wouldn't exist without Hedwig.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
Oh, awesome.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
That's incredible. Wait, can we know more about the musical?

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Yeah, it's about my sort of torrid love affair and
codependent relationship with a tapeworm that I had for a
few years. Yeah, unknowingly, until it came out. And so
it's the story of me, like, discovering why I've been sick. Mm-hmm.

(08:43):
And then trying to like extricate myself from this relationship,
both with this worm, but also like with the identity
of ill, of like chronically ill and disabled. And then
also like as an artist losing this crutch that like
allowed me to kind of hide and stay small and

(09:04):
like not go to the party and, you know, just
be like, I'm going to stay home and yeah like
sort of losing that crutch and now feeling like there's
nothing stopping me but me sure as an artist and
then the the worm takes over the show and I
have to kind of work my way back into it
as a parasite would.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
That sounds so interesting that rocks that.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
So much I want to see it that's so cool.

Speaker 4 (09:32):
Well, we're doing it again in November in Los Angeles
at the Elysian Theater.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Oh, we perform there all the time. We're both in LA.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
Oh, really?

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
Oh, well, then you guys should come.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah. Absolutely. I love the Elysian.

Speaker 4 (09:43):
Great.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Back to Hedwig. Jamie, what's your history with the movie?

Speaker 2 (09:50):
I had seen it once before, and it was such
a great experience seeing it the first time that I
feel like I haven't returned to it because I think
I had a really optimal first experience. with Hedwig. But Mia,
to echo you, I was also a huge Rent kid.
I remember when I think Rent closed on Broadway. when

(10:12):
I was in middle school and I lived in Massachusetts
and me and my best friends who were also twins
who were obsessed with rent, we like devised a plan
to go. I just, it was like a big part
of my childhood. And also, you know, I think a
lot of kids, you know, like found rent and it
opened up all these other doors. And I think Hedwig

(10:35):
for many of those same kids is one of the
first doors you encounter. You kind of graduate from, From
being a rent child and then you become a Hedwig teen, maybe.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
Totally.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
But I don't know why, but it took me a
long time to see Hedwig. And the first time I
saw it was in a basement in Indiana early into.
Touring as a standup and it was just like this
awesome standup community in Fort Wayne, Indiana. It was like
this big pocket of queer comics. And, um, I just

(11:06):
remember I was crashing with someone and they were like, Oh,
we're gonna have a bunch of people over and watch Hedwig.
And so it was like, it was optimal. I saw
Hedwig in a room full of like former Hedwig teens
and who were so stoked that I had never seen it.
It felt, and we'll talk about all of the ways
that Hedwig is in conversation with Rocky Horror, but it

(11:27):
felt sort of like the experience of seeing Rocky Horror
for the first time, where it was just like, you know,
for positive reasons and reasons that are more complicated, but
just unbridled enthusiasm that I had never seen it before.
And like the night became about like, oh my God,
someone's seeing it for the first time. How exciting. Also
a John Cameron Mitchell fan. The music is pretty unbeatable.

(11:51):
Even though I'd only seen the movie once, I have
Hedwig's in my rotation. And there's also a lot to
talk about, and I'm excited too. Yeah, Caitlin, what's your history?

Speaker 3 (12:03):
I saw this for the first time during the great
Caitlin movie binge of 2005, as I've seen many movies
for the first time. And I haven't watched it since.
Listeners of the show may know that I'm not the
biggest musical head. I do. I find that musicals with

(12:25):
like diegetic music are easier for me to digest.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
What does that mean?

Speaker 4 (12:31):
So.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
Diegetic audio is when the music is like coming from
within the story so like when they're playing a show
in front of a crowd that's like happening within the
context of the world and the story versus non-diegetic audio
is any audio that only the audience can hear versus

(12:52):
the other characters within the world so when characters are
in a musical and they just sort of like burst
into song about their feelings or whatever and no other
characters are meant to really be hearing it. So for example,
I love like Josie and the Pussycats where they're playing
like diegetic concerts and Spice World where they're playing... diegetic

(13:16):
songs and things like that.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Got it. I feel like the best yardstick for like,
because it, I feel like I was mixing it up
for years and the best movie to use as a
yardstick is Chicago because they have numbers that start non-diegetic
and then become diegetic. Like they have numbers that like
straddle it in a fun way.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
So Hedwig and the Angry Inch has diegetic songs, but
even so, something I'm just like really discovering about myself
is is that when someone, I just don't like to
watch people sing. I just sort of completely tune out.
Unless it really pushes the story forward in a meaningful way,
which this movie does as well. There's a lot of

(13:59):
exposition in the music, but I mean.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, a lot of the songs are just straight up,
and then this happened, but in a way that's awesome.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yeah, I know, I know. What I'm saying is that
I appreciate elements of this movie, but I'm not the
biggest fan. So I'm the villain of the episode once again.

Speaker 4 (14:19):
You don't have to come to my musical.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
No, I actually like watching... a live musical on the stage.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Live. Titanic. Titanic. Oh, wow.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
I traveled across an ocean to see Paddington the musical.

Speaker 4 (14:33):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (14:33):
I like like a live musical on the stage.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
So I will be there. Yes.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
We'll be in attendance.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
I should add to my history with this movie that
I did actually see John Cameron Mitchell do it on Broadway.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Oh, that's amazing.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
Yeah. It was incredible. They like, they revived it and
they did it with a rotating cast of Hedwig's. So
like Taye Diggs played Hedwig.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
That's the Hedwig. I was like, that would have been
my Hedwig of choice.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
Well, I didn't know when John Cameron Mitchell did it
that Taye was, I think, next. Rent history there. So anyway,
I saw John Cameron Mitchell do it live and it
was incredible.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
That sounds amazing. Yeah. I wasn't sure because we've covered...
Throughout the course of the show, there is an interesting
pattern of... Basically, I didn't know if the show started
on stage or went on stage.

Speaker 4 (15:25):
I think it started on stage. It did. And then
it became a movie, and then it got revived on stage.
And by the way, I realized this this time that
I watched the movie, because I watched it last week
in preparation for this, John Cameron Mitchell didn't write the music. No.
I always just assumed that he did.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
I know. I feel like it's because he embodies... Hedwig
so fully that you just assumed. But it was like, oh, yeah,
I guess you can't be good at that many things.

Speaker 4 (15:49):
Well, but he does sing, you know, like he is
obviously musical.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
Right.

Speaker 4 (15:55):
So, but I don't know, maybe he just didn't feel
like he could write the songs.

Speaker 3 (15:59):
I don't know. Yeah, he and a writer named Stephen
Trask co-wrote the book for the original stage production. And
then John Cameron Mitchell wrote the screenplay for the movie.
But then the other songs were written by... I didn't.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Write it down. Well, this is like another way that
Hedwig feels more in... Because we've covered movies that have starred...
Like movies that have... non-conforming gender main characters that started
as a movie and went to Broadway, usually with diminishing returns.

(16:37):
I'm thinking about Tootsie. I'm thinking about Priscilla, Queen of
the Desert.

Speaker 4 (16:42):
Mrs. Doubtfire.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Mrs. Doubtfire and Toowong Fu all have become Broadway musicals.
But I think that this sort of firmed up in
my head. I was like, oh, Hedwig is way more
like Rocky Horror because Rocky Horror was like stage to
movie back to stage and has like more of an
indie spirit than like a successful movie being turned into
a Broadway musical. Right.

Speaker 4 (17:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
Right. But anyways. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
So, so we've, we'd all seen it before and I
think that this is the first time I've seen Hedwig
and the Angry Inch that I like knew who Miriam
Shore was. So that was delightful.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
I don't, who is that?

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Miriam Shore plays Yitzhak. Yitzhak. Hedwig's husband. Oh, um, and
I really enjoyed her in the TV land series younger.
And so I was like, wait, I reckon anyways.

Speaker 4 (17:31):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
And right.

Speaker 4 (17:32):
I've seen her. She's been around for ages and I, I,
I forgot her name, but yes, I've seen her. I mean,
oh my God, I can't even remember what I've seen
her and I've seen her and she's just like ever
so present.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
If there's one, if there's one thing I love, it's
a Gen X character actor. And so that this movie
is rewarding in many, many ways.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
Oh, and she was in just like, and just like that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
She's been in so many things and, and, and is so, um,
disguised in this movie.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
Right yeah which i'm interested to talk about further as
well but yeah i guess should we get into the
recap but take a quick break first sure sure And

(18:28):
we're back. And here is the recap of Hedwig and
the Angry Inch. We meet Hedwig, played by John Cameron Mitchell,
the lead singer of a band called Hedwig and the
Angry Inch. They are performing at a show that's at
like a family diner in Kansas city. And they are

(18:52):
like walking a bunch of people out of the room.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
This is like, this scene is so as I mean, Caitlin,
I know you have this as well, but like as a,
as a long standup comic who has performed in so
many rooms full of people who are just straight up
angry to see you.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
I feel very seen, uh, by this movie and also
slightly triggered by it. We were like, oh, a restaurant
full of people who are like, get the hell out
of here.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
Yeah, who didn't know a comedy show was about to
happen and then it's sprung on them and they're furious
about it.

Speaker 4 (19:25):
Well, doesn't she play... She plays at like an old
folks home at some point, like a nursing home at
some point.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Traveling artist PTSD.

Speaker 4 (19:33):
She perpetually performs for audiences that do not want to
see her. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
Very true.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah. Which is like artistically like in very like the movie.
And I love it. But I was like, damn.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
It hits. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
I mean, I think that's part of why it hit
in that basement in Indiana. Cause we had sort of
just done a show that was not dissimilar to that setting.

Speaker 4 (19:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
Okay. So people are walking out of this show and
it's implied that part of the reason, if not the
entire reason is that Hedwig is wearing a you know,
big exaggerated drag makeup and a big blonde wig. And
the people in the crowd are boring, queerphobic, straight people.

(20:18):
Hedwig sings a song about the Berlin Wall. We will
come to learn that Hedwig was born in Berlin in 1961,
the year that the Berlin Wall was erected, and she
grew up in East Berlin. And we'll learn more about
that in a bit. But first, we get better acquainted
with one of Hedwig's bandmates slash her romantic partner, Yitzhak,

(20:42):
played by Miriam Shore, who is upset because a famous
musician named Tommy Gnosis, played by Michael Pitt, comes on
the TV playing the same song that Hedwig and the
Angry Inch just played. We will come to learn that
this is a song that Tommy Gnosis stole from Hedwig

(21:03):
and then we discover that Hedwig and her band are
on tour and they are like following slash stalking the
tour that Tommy Gnosis is doing and it seems like
and this will be later confirmed that Tommy was a
former protege of Hedwig but something happened between them and

(21:26):
they had a falling out The band's manager, Phyllis, played
by Andrea Martin of Everything.

Speaker 4 (21:34):
Oh, big fat Greek wedding. Also an incredible singer in
her own right. And so interesting, like musical theater actress.
And so interesting that she's in this show and doesn't
sing a peep.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah. But anyway, Phyllis tells Hedwig like, hey, maybe stalking
Tommy isn't the best idea, especially because you're tangled up
in a lawsuit right now. because Hedwig is suing Tommy
for stealing her music. Then Hedwig and the Angry Inch

(22:06):
play another small show. We get an animated sequence about
Hedwig pondering who her other half might be, There's a
reference to Plato's Symposium.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, it's very heady. This is like, God, it makes
me wish I had seen this movie when I was
14 because, you know, the Plato of it all would
have really been like....

Speaker 4 (22:32):
I believe it's an Aristophanes story. I studied philosophy in college.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (22:38):
Yeah, it's the Aristophanes two halves where people get split Yeah,
in Plato's Symposium, the playwright Aristophanes explains that humans were
originally spherical creatures with two faces, four arms, four legs,
and then Zeus punished them and split them apart, and
so everyone spends their lives seeking out their missing other half. Yeah,

(23:03):
it's like the soulmate origin story, that there is really
only one true love out there for you.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Right, and... I believe the title of the song is
The Origin of Love.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Sure is.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
And then Hedwig also reveals more about her childhood, that
she was raised as a little boy named Hansel by
a German mother and an American GI father who eventually
left after Hansel's mother kicked him out.

Speaker 4 (23:33):
For sexually abusing Hansel.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yes. Which is, I think, more explicit in the stage
version than the movie, but I was... it feels pretty
explicit in the movie. Well, it's interesting because in the
original reviews of the movie, they're like, it's not explicitly said.
I'm like, I, I felt differently, but I was okay.
I'm glad that you're on the same page there. Cause

(23:56):
I was like, I feel like it was maybe not
in actual words, but it is like heavily.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
Yeah. Well, visually it's interesting. It is very downplayed. He's
sort of, They have clothes on in the bed. It
looks like they're sleeping, spooning. But then the mother violently
wrenches the father away and, you know, slaps him, punches
him and says out, out, out and tries to, you know,

(24:23):
kicks him out of the house. So you know what happened.
But we don't see. I think it's a beautiful representation
where like we know, but we didn't actually have to
see it.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Sure. Yeah. It's all in the mother's reaction.

Speaker 4 (24:36):
Yes. Yes.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
Right, so we get that bit of backstory, and then
we also learn that Hansel spent his childhood... listening to
and being influenced by American rock music. Back in the present,
the next show that the band does is at a
Menzies fair.

Speaker 4 (24:56):
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
Which is so funny.

Speaker 4 (24:59):
And no one's at their stage. There's one girl there.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
One person. During this performance, Hedwig reveals more of her
backstory and which is when she was in her early,
late 20s, still living as Hansel, meets an American soldier
named Luther, played by Maurice Dean Wint, who takes a

(25:24):
liking to Hansel and offers up a bunch of American
candy and becomes Hansel's, like, literal sugar daddy.

Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yeah, gooby bars.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
And then the two of them get together romantically and
devise a plan for Luther to more or less smuggle
Hansel out of East Berlin to the U.S. So the
plan is that Luther will marry Hansel, but same-sex marriage
is not legal at this time and place. So Hansel

(25:57):
will take his mother's passport and start using her name, Hedwig.
But also Hansel will need to have surgery to remove
his penis so that he can pass as a woman.
And I hope I'm describing this correctly because Hedwig is
trans but more out of legal necessity than identity.

Speaker 4 (26:18):
Yes. This was something that I found... We can talk
about it more after we're done with the recap, but
I was particularly struck by her gender journey this time
watching it because I knew I was going to be
talking about it. And so I was thinking about, like,
you know, I want to have a discussion about her gender,

(26:40):
but it's definitely not going to be in the, like,
you know, what we would call... proper terminology like i
don't even i was thinking like i don't even know
if this movie would pass like glad's screening for transphobia
sure you know because it's like it's a totally bizarre

(27:01):
story that doesn't um yeah i mean i think it
sort of runs the risk of being accused of like
uh it's not really it's not a detransition story but
it's like it's not the kind of story that makes
you think, Oh yeah, like let's support, you know, if
you're trying to convince anyone that like trans people deserve

(27:23):
rights and that this is something you're, you know, that
a lot of people feel like they're born this way.
And like, this is not the story that's going to
change your mind, you know?

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Which I kind of didn't remember exactly. Like my, my
vague memory of this movie from when I saw it
like 20 years ago, I was like, oh yeah, Hedwig
is like, it's not as though Hedwig always identified as
a woman and then had like gender affirming surgery.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
She transitioned for survival, but not the kind of survival
that we usually talk about with trans people being like
gender affirming care is like life-saving, you know, it's like
it was, it was for right legal purposes. It was
like under duress.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Well, it's also like, I, it's so true. Everything I've seen,
I mean, I read a lot of analysis of this
movie and it's so so polarizing and whether the critic
and there's been so many gender non-conforming people and trans
critics who have written about this movie whether they're like
pro-con or somewhere in the middle the word messy comes

(28:24):
up everywhere as a positive or a negative and that's
just like inherent to the story because it's like I
don't even know I was like struggling with do we
talk about Hedwig transitioning or being transitioned because she, like
Hedwig doesn't want to transition. Like there's no, we have,
there's nothing about Hedwig that we're told Hedwig. It's so,

(28:48):
it's so, it's just messy.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
Right.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
Cause it's like Hedwig, what we know about Hedwig is
Hedwig wants to be an androgynous rockstar and Hedwig becomes
an androgynous rockstar and And then there's also all this
other shit going on. And like, it's just, it's yeah,
it's messy.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
Exactly. In any case, Hansel has surgery to become Hedwig,
but the doctor botches the surgery and leaves Hedwig with,
as she describes it, a one inch mound of flesh
between her legs, an angry inch, hence the name of
the band. And then we cut back to the present

(29:27):
and the band performs a song at a show about
the Angry Inch. And some of the crowd is horrified. Again,
a lot of the people watching these shows are kind
of there by accident. And so a brawl breaks out
between the band and their fans and the queer phobic
audience members.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
She's at like a trucker bar at this point or something.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
It's like, I'm like, who books this?

Speaker 4 (29:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:55):
Phyllis maybe should be booking different venues. There are, there
are queer bars all across the U S. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
Undoubtedly in the towns, the cities that Tommy Gnosis is
stopping in with his huge tour, there is for sure
queer bars.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, it does seem like Phyllis might be operating on
some old directories, maybe.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
Anyway, we cut back to the flashback where shortly after
Hedwig and Luther arrive in the U.S., Luther leaves her
for someone else, a young man. And this happens at
the same time that the Berlin Wall falls. And Hedwig realizes,
oh no, if I had just waited a little bit,

(30:42):
I wouldn't have had to have that surgery.

Speaker 4 (30:45):
Can I talk about this scene? This scene was like,
it's the most heartbreaking, I think.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
I totally agree. In the whole movie.

Speaker 4 (30:51):
In the whole movie. Because she also doesn't say anything.
She's like slumped down in this like market lounger. Yeah.
Next to a TV. Just kind of like, she looks,
you know, almost dead. And he's standing in the doorway
of their trailer. Like, they're living in an RV. He's
standing in the door with a twink.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:14):
And the twink is carrying his luggage. Like, you know,
chases him out of the trailer. Barely, you know, struggling
with his luggage. And it's like, oh, he really just wants, like,
an assistant. Like, I don't know, you know.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
And then.

Speaker 4 (31:32):
Right, what you see, so they leave and you're left
watching Hedwig, she just like slowly turns her head to
the TV that's next to her that's playing the news
that the Berlin Wall fell. So she could have stayed
in Berlin, she could have not left her mother, she
could have not gotten this surgery, you know, and not
ended up like completely uprooting and destroying her life somewhat.

(31:58):
Like all of this was for nothing. And it's just,
it's done almost entirely in silence. Agreed.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
It's just, it's devastating. It's so, and I think I
was trying to think of like other, it's also just
like such a specific devastation that I've never really seen
anywhere else of like Hedwig did everything that was necessary. necessary.
But if the timeline had shifted by a year, it
would be just a totally different story. And I mean,

(32:26):
there's so again, just speaking to and I hope I'm
not like, yeah, this movie is such a minefield. But
all of the ways that like Hedwig is, there's like
distance as Hedwig figures out who they are. That's also
a cultural thing, right? It's like, Hedwig is also caught
between this German identity and this very American identity that

(32:50):
is almost like on this viewing, I was like, oh,
Hedwig is almost like doing American drag as well. Because
it's like she's performing this Americanness. She's performing an American
rock star, even though when we cut back to Hansel,
Hansel is like almost comically German coded. like Gumi bears.

(33:14):
And so it's just like, there's, there's all of these
different layers to who Hedwig is. And I feel like
obviously gender takes literally center stage in this movie, but
I was like, Oh, there's also like this big cultural
battle that is going on inside of Hedwig as well
of like, just where, where am I supposed to be?

Speaker 3 (33:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (33:31):
Displaced in so many ways.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
Right. And I mean, I feel like Luther is also
a fascinating character because he, when he approaches Hansel, he
seems to think that Hansel is a cis woman. Right.
It says like, Hey girl. And then is sort of
surprised to see that Hansel has a penis, but that
doesn't deter Luther. Luther, who is an American soldier, which

(33:58):
is like supposed to be the embodiment of men, like masculinity,
but he's clearly queer and, you get the sense that
Luther never loved Hansel, more just like fetishized him. Yeah.
So for Hedwig slash Hansel to make this huge sacrifice
for someone who didn't even love them is like, so,

(34:22):
and so Hedwig is very, very depressed about this. And
then what follows is a song that seems to be
about like, making the best of this situation, putting on
makeup and wearing wigs.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4 (34:34):
Put on my makeup. Yeah, that's one of my favorites.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
It's really good, especially the sing-along bit at the end.
It's so campy, too. I love it.

Speaker 4 (34:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
Yeah. So back in the present, the band continues to
stalk Tommy Gnosis' Torf. And things are getting tense among
the bandmates. Hedwig yells at someone that you can't put
a bra in the dryer. It'll warp! And then Hedwig

(35:04):
starts to divulge the backstory about Tommy. where Hedwig used
to be Tommy's babysitter when she was in her late 20s,
and Tommy was 17. Uh-oh, that's something we'll also talk about.

Speaker 4 (35:21):
Yeah, well, she was babysitting his baby sibling, who I
would imagine is from his dad's new family. He hates
his dad. And so Tommy was around, but she wasn't
his babysitter. Was my impression.

Speaker 3 (35:39):
That makes sense. Even so, he is underage.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
It plays into a lot of negative stereotypes around queer
people as well.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
Like it's just as predatory.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
So we'll talk about that. What's happening in the meantime
is that Hedwig is like getting back into her love
of music. And so she takes Tommy under her wing
and Coaches him and teaches him about music and also
grooms him both hygienically and predatorially. And they develop a

(36:13):
romantic relationship. Although Tommy avoids Hedwig's angry inch until one
day they start getting more physically intimate and he dies.
discovers it and freaks out and then Hedwig berates him
for not accepting her as she is and then he
kind of storms out and they break up back in

(36:35):
the present Hedwig's bandmate and partner Yitzhak announces that he's
leaving because he got cast in a production of Rent
and wants a divorce from Hedwig iconic crossover.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
Rent is a recurring theme in this show too yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yes, it's a motif for sure. And Hedwig is furious
and rips up Yitzhak's passport. He's an immigrant from somewhere
in Eastern Europe, I think maybe Croatia.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
Yitzhak also makes me think Jewish, which, you know, just
the German background there is interesting, like the German-Jewish coming
together thing. Also confusing gender stuff, because later Yitzhak is...
a woman in a dress being like passed around by
everybody in a crowd, right? At the end, like towards

(37:28):
the end.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Wait, I might've missed that.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
I thought that was, I thought that was Hedwig.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
No.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Did I?

Speaker 4 (37:35):
It's Yitzhak.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Oh dear.

Speaker 4 (37:38):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Right.

Speaker 4 (37:39):
So then she rips up his passport and, um, what
was I going to say about, oh yeah, that it's
like a step too far for a lot of people,
including Hedwig. Andrea Martin Phyllis, the tour manager, where they're like, oh,
you're like a despicable person. It's like she's crossed a line.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, Hedwig.

Speaker 3 (37:59):
has some anger issues, we'll say. And Phyllis quits. And yeah,
things are very tense in the band. And then Hedwig,
who has started working as a sex worker, has a
brief reunion with Tommy, who again has become a famous

(38:21):
musician by stealing Hedwig's songs. they reunite and like sort
of reconcile very temporarily, but then paparazzi see them together
and take photos that get published in gossip rags about
how Tommy was with a trans sex worker, which Tommy denies.

Speaker 4 (38:42):
Yeah. He says, well, hold on. Can I insert?

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
So right before that, Tommy pulls up in a limousine
to pick up Hedwig while she's working working as a
sex worker and she gets in the car and again
in silence he takes his album and it says like
songs written by tommy gnosis and a sharpie and he
puts a little carrot and writes out like by hedwig

(39:08):
i don't remember her last name robinson robinson the idea
being he's trying to kind of make peace here right
and say like you know let's be collaborators again And
then through, I actually don't remember what happens, but they
end up on kind of a bender, right?

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
Yeah. They're like driving around together and then they crash
into each other.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
A truck and that's when you know page six their
faces their mug shots come up and he says i
don't know that woman i've never met her in my
life and he's suddenly like swearing her off again yeah
um so it's like it's a huge betrayal.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
For sure yes but then Hedwig goes on talk shows
such as the Rosie O'Donnell show to, which.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
I think is pulled from an actual clip of the
Rosie O'Donnell show during the off Broadway run prior to this.
Cause I read that. Yeah. That Rosie O'Donnell had like the,
the production of Hedwig on the show and it like
caused a bunch of assholes to be upset about like
Hedwig and the angry inch on daytime TV. So I'm,
I'm assuming it's a clip from that.

Speaker 3 (40:14):
Don't know for sure, but, Either way, Hedwig is talking
publicly about her experience, her side of the story, and
becomes famous in so doing, and performs a big show.
Although at the same time, Hedwig seems to be kind
of unraveling. And she rips off her wig and dress.

(40:38):
And then this is where things start to become surreal.
So I might need some help with what's going on exactly.
But Hedwig goes to watch Tommy perform, but it's not
clear if.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
I think at this point we're in, like, dream world.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
Dream world, yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
In this scene, they seem to kind of reconcile again.
And then we see Hedwig perform with her band once more.
But this time she's doing so dressed kind of as Tommy.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
And I had to look this up, but what seems
to be going on here is that Hedwig created her
other half. So that reference to Plato's Symposium and finding
your other half, it's that she created her other half
out of herself.

Speaker 4 (41:27):
This is also like, there's like a fight club interpretation. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
That they were the same person the whole time.

Speaker 4 (41:33):
Yes. And when I showed this movie to my partner-
I had never thought this before, but at the end
he was like, so did she die? And I was like, what?

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Whoa. Okay.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
Wait, now that I think about it, because they wrote
the same songs.

Speaker 4 (41:48):
Right.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
They're on the same tour, more or less.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
In the same cities. Whoa. I know.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Damn.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
I know.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
It changes.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
That would help resolve some of the messier elements of
the movie also.

Speaker 4 (42:02):
Well, I'm also now lost in someone's Tumblr synopsis of this,
where they're saying that, you know, you said Hedwig looks
like Tommy, and it's like, has she been Tommy the
whole time? Mm-hmm. And Michael Pitt, to cast Michael Pitt,
I mean, he is like an exceptionally kind of androgynous

(42:23):
90s star, you know. He was like in the vein
of Leo in that time. I don't want to be mean,
but he was kind of like Leo-lite, you know.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah, Leo wasn't available. It happens.

Speaker 4 (42:36):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Right. That's interesting. I hadn't seen that interpretation and– I mean,
there's so many ways to look at this movie. It's
like there's a trillion interpretations, but that would make sense
of like Hedwig looking at a younger version of themselves
and like reconciling with a younger version and like all
of the pain and confusion, which is definitely, I think,

(43:02):
a nice thing to consider and not that hurt people
hurt people, which is like what I think the more
surface reading of it ends up. being so tough. I
was really surprised. I, I think I was just like
so drawn in by the music and the, the vibes
on my first viewing all those years ago that, um,

(43:24):
I mean, the relationship between Hedwig and, you know, like
it's just so tremendously complicated in a way that, you know,
we're so tuned to be rooting for Hedwig. But like Tommy,
I'm rooting for Tommy. I feel for him, you know.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
Something that also we haven't addressed here is that Tommy
is like a really religious Christian.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (43:48):
And so he like, first of all, that's like part
of his aesthetic. Like he, she draws the cross on
his head. And that becomes, like, his sort of go-to, like, branding.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Very rock star vibe, though. I feel like, yeah, rock
stars in Christianity.

Speaker 4 (44:01):
Yes. And then he talks about, like, in that scene
when he comes home so angry about his dad, he
talks about something, I don't remember, but, like, in Christianity
that he's, like, sort of trying to, like, justify them
being together and, like, Hedwig being the way that she
is through this, like, biblical... lens do you remember this.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
Eve was made out of adam.

Speaker 4 (44:26):
Yes eve was made out of adam right and like
why would eve just wanted to know things he says
like why would we punish and then right that comes
back again later in that moment and hedwig is just
like i don't need to explain this in some like
godly terms like i just am who i am and
she's like love the front of me honey you know
that line that's like so crushing But my partner's interpretation

(44:50):
of her dying is coming back to me. I think
he thought that she died in the car crash.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Interesting.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
And so then everything after the car crash.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
Everything after that.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
I know.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
Because, I mean, if you think about it, in what
world in the early 2000s would an ostensibly trans woman die?
shoot up to superstardom in such a queerphobic society at
that time. So maybe it is sort of like a
post-death fantasy landscape.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
I see the vision. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
Maybe, maybe.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
There's just so many.

Speaker 4 (45:32):
I know. I also am reading, okay, like this is
not what I thought was going on with the Yitzhak thing,
but I'm, I wonder who this cute, sweet person writing
on Tumblr about this show. Like, who are you? So
that Yitzhak is, in fact, a trans woman. And so

(45:53):
the beginning of the movie where Miriam Shore is playing
a man, that that's someone who wants to transition to
be perceived as a woman. So... Yitzhak and Hedwig begin
to embrace themselves as they really are. And Yitzhak is
allowed to transition to be a woman.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
To being a woman.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
Yeah, which is so interesting. And also, like, the casting
here is... Because I feel like now, if that was...
If that is, in fact, the story, now they would
cast probably a trans woman who was okay being in
drag as a man. Yeah. So that when she, you know...
becomes what her true self is, if we're going with

(46:40):
this interpretation, that she is actually herself as a trans woman.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Interesting.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
Yeah, I wasn't sure what exactly was the intention with
the Yitzhak character because it's a cis woman actor. Miriam Shore.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
Playing a man. So I wasn't sure if we were
supposed to interpret Yitzhak as trans masc or if just
because gender queerness is already such a prevalent theme in
this story. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
It's like one of the many things that like the
2001 of it all kind of muddles.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Right.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Because I'm like, is it simply just that the filmmakers
were like, what if we have a woman play a man?
Because why the hell not? And then I found a
quote from John Cameron Mitchell talking about him and his
co-writer Stephen Trask developing and casting the character of Yitzhak.
And so he says, quote, Stephen thought we really needed

(47:38):
a female voice. So he suggested, why don't we have
a woman playing a man? And then we met Miriam Shore.
There was no question that Miriam was head and shoulders
above the rest in the auditions. she had this perfect
balance of believable butchness and an incredible voice. Unquote. He
goes on to talk about how talented of a vocalist

(48:01):
Miriam Shore is, but that's kind of the only thing
I found as far as insight about Yitzhak's gender. So
I'm leaning more toward The filmmakers just wanted to play
around with gender in their casting choices, which I'm here for.
And I like that Yitzhak is very open to interpretation.

(48:24):
But yeah, I wasn't entirely sure what the intention is.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
And sometimes that's because the answer is there kind of
wasn't one.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
Shrug. Exactly. Okay. And then what happens at the end
of the movie? And then we'll take another quick break
and get really fully into the discussion. But as this
big show is happening, that Hedwig and the Angry Inch
are performing with Hedwig looking like Tommy, Hedwig gives the

(48:53):
blonde wig, or a blonde wig, similar to what Hedwig
had been wearing.

Speaker 4 (48:58):
Passes the crown, so to speak.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
Over to Yitzhak. And then the movie ends with another
quite surreal moment of Hedwig... More appearing as like Hansel
walking naked down the street at night.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
Away from us. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
The end.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
Right.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
So that's the movie. Let's take a quick break. and
then we'll come back and and really dive in and
we're back where shall we start Oh boy. Mia, is there,

(49:39):
where would you like to begin?

Speaker 4 (49:41):
Well, I mean, I touched on it while we were
doing the synopsis, but I was really struck this time
around by Hedwig's very complicated gender journey that like certainly
doesn't follow, you know, any like common trajectory and, you know,
turns everything we know on its head about like, and

(50:05):
certainly the arguments that are used to like change policy
around trans people, like this story might even, um, you know,
kind of.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
Like things back a bit jeopardize.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:20):
But I think it's incredibly necessary because even though this
isn't a true story, like things like this have happened.
And it's also interesting because there's like, um, you know,
there's like conspiracies around like forced transition. And I think
this is a really great example of what that could

(50:41):
look like that's more likely than any trans person forcing
anyone to transition, which is like the sort of conspiracy idea.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Right.

Speaker 4 (50:52):
Right.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
Well, I think what might inform why this gender journey
that the character of Hedwig goes on is so messy
as many critics have described is the sort of conception
of this story where, and I pull, I'm pulling a
lot of this from an oral history of this, like

(51:16):
the original stage production and then the movie and then
the Broadway stage production is, an oral history in Rolling
Stone compiled by Jennifer Wood, where many of the key players,
including John Cameron Mitchell and Stephen Trask, were interviewed. And
so basically what happened here is that these two became friends,

(51:41):
John Cameron Mitchell and Stephen Trask, They're hanging out at
this place called The Squeeze Box, where Stephen Trask worked
at the time. This was like the early, mid-90s. And
John Cameron Mitchell was interested in performing there. But it
was a drag club. So Stephen was like, well, I

(52:03):
can get you a gig, but you'll have to perform
in drag, which John Cameron Mitchell had never done before.
So he starts thinking about what this character could be
that he creates and what that might look like. And
he developed a sense of a character that was loosely
based on a babysitter he had from childhood named Helga.

(52:27):
who he later found out was also a sex worker.
So Hedwig, the character started to come together from that.
And then John Cameron Mitchell was also thinking, okay, well,
if it's me performing in drag, how do I explain
all of this? How do I explain this Helga like

(52:49):
inspired Hedwig character? And so, and I'm just pulling a
quick quote here from the Rolling Stone oral history, John
Cameron Mitchell said, quote, I started thinking more about the
character and the transgender aspect, the sort of castration angle,
and the involuntary sex change just came to me, unquote.

(53:14):
So it all just kind of.
Happened.

Speaker 4 (53:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
Created like conceptually. And then John Cameron Mitchell and Stephen
Trask started working on songs for this Hedwig character to sing.
And they started piecing the show together and they would
put it up at different small venues around New York City.
They would polish it over the course of a few years.
Eventually it gained a bit of a cult following. A

(53:42):
film adaptation was in the works and then kind of
the rest is history. But that was the creative conception
of this character in this story.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
Interesting. I mean, that origin story actually like supports the
interpretation that Tommy Gnosis and Hedwig are in fact the
same person because John Cameron Mitchell was the Tommy character
in his own life.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
Right.

Speaker 4 (54:10):
And then is now playing the babysitter. Right. So that
he's both, you.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
Know, it's, Something that I, I mean, because I'm so
much of this, I just want to talk about it
with both of you and continue to read and figure out,
because it's just like, it feels like you could be
on a journey with this movie forever, kind of. But
what I feel very clear on, at least, is that

(54:35):
at least a big issue with the conversations around Hedwig
is the lack of alternative representation, right? Especially in 2001,
there are barely any movies that are centered around gender
nonconforming characters. And so for one of the biggest movies
centered around a gender nonconforming character to be so messy and...

(55:02):
I totally understand why there's so many critics that have
a lot of frustration and resentment towards this movie because
there are reads of it that sort of argue that
it's catering to queer panic narratives, even though I don't
believe it was intended to be that way. but I

(55:23):
think it like has everything to do with not even
so much John Cameron Mitchell, although there is the argument
of like cis gay men, but John Cameron Mitchell's non-binary.
It's all very complicated. All I'm saying is like this
movie being the one that is lifted up and that
like enters the mainstream canon, I can understand people's frustration
with that because there were so few mainstream alternatives about

(55:48):
a gender non-conforming character at this time.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
Right. And the ones that did exist were completely centered
around panic, whether it was like Silence of the Lambs
or Psycho or The Crying Game.

Speaker 4 (56:01):
But I, I really try not to look at works
of art that way personally, because I am an artist
and I try to like look at the artist and
what they're trying to do. And I think that, you know,
like saying to an artist, like, people aren't ready for
this conversation or something is like yet another form of

(56:24):
censorship personally.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying like the
way that the media environment of the time received it versus.

Speaker 4 (56:32):
Like, that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that you're
saying this. I'm saying like, yeah, that, that critique to me,
like I, I generally don't want to look at things
that way. Like, because I want to think about like,
I'm not saying this is what you're doing, Jamie. I'm
saying that, like, people are very eager to critique things
that way. And it sounds like what you were reading was,

(56:55):
you know, that kind of critique. And I think that
there's so much value to this movie. And even though
it may, you know, we keep using the word messy. Like,
even though it may have, it certainly wasn't like painting
a trans woman or a gender nonconforming person. person if

(57:15):
we're not so sure like how Hedwig would identify also
like the language at the time was very different like
it's not painting her in a good light but she's
a it's a depiction of like a real person like
a complex person with like a total you know full
like interiority as opposed to someone who's like the serial

(57:36):
killer like axe murderer total tertiary character Totally.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
Right.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
And then I think that there's elements of Hedwig that
I've seen criticized. And again, I guess I'll just like
cite some of the pieces that I'm looking at. We've
cited her reviews on the show before. Sally Jane Black
did a review that was like addressing her complicated relationship
with this movie over time where she got a lot

(58:02):
out of it as a younger person and then grew
frustrated with it as time went on, which is, valid
um and i'm also looking at an i believe it's
an auto straddle article or sorry it's in indie magazine
botched surgery forced transition and gay fear how hedwig hurt
trans representation just to get a feel for what these

(58:24):
arguments are one that i i that chafed with me
a bit was i guess i like hedwig is lashes
out tremendously at the people in her life in this
movie in a way that makes a lot of sense
to me. Like, I think sometimes it's like, and we've
talked about this on the show before, there is like
a resistance to seeing a marginalized character acting out because

(58:48):
there's so little representation. When I think at least we're
given all the information we need to understand why Hedwig
is lashing out in this way.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
Traumatic backstory.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
The shit this character has been through. Yeah. And that,
you know, in the story, like, I guess maybe it's
post-car crash death quote. mark in this dream sequence however
you choose to see it that hedwig's character is met
with understanding and forgiveness by the people that hedwig or

(59:21):
hansel or wherever we we land who knows um yeah
has hurt in their life and like I guess, yeah,
the one criticism that I really kind of was like, well,
you know, it's like, well, she's so cruel to her husband. Like, absolutely.
You know, tearing up the passport. Diabolical. But also so

(59:42):
obvious why she would do that. She is so pathologically
terrified of abandonment because she's been abandoned so many times.

Speaker 4 (59:49):
Desperately clinging.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
And so it's like so much of Hedwig's behavior that
it's fair to be critical of, but it's like, in context,
it's all there. Right.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
Yeah. Yeah. And not, it doesn't like excuse the behavior.
It's really bad behavior. You know, she like needs help,
you know, in many kinds of help, like anger management therapy.
I mean, yeah, she, she's, she's not represented as a
likable person, which I think is, is interesting as just,
just an artistic choice, a dramatic choice to like make

(01:00:21):
the stock. She's sort of the, what do they call that?
Like the aunt, Not the antagonist.

Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Like an anti-hero.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
Yeah, anti-hero.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Right, right.

Speaker 4 (01:00:31):
Like, you don't like her when you're watching them. Like,
I'm not like, oh, I want to be her friend.
She's so cool. You know, like, I'm like, whoa. Yeah, like,
you had a really rough life and you're taking it
out on the people around you. I would be scared
of you. But it's very, in that way, it's like,
you know, it's a picture of a flawed world. And
I also think, to look at this in a... To

(01:00:53):
continue with this, like, gendered lens, if her character were
a man, you know, these anger issues would read very differently. Like,
we see these difficult men. You know, Tony Soprano, the
guy from Breaking Bad. Like, we, as audiences... very often
we're like so much more forgiving of these like incredibly

(01:01:16):
difficult men.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
For sure.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
And we're way harsher critics of difficult women. And I'd
say even harsher critics of gender non-conforming people and trans
women in particular.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
For sure. Women of color.

Speaker 4 (01:01:27):
Women of color.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
Well, going back to the people who maybe in their
younger life would watch this movie and appreciate the representation
of any woman genderqueer person because again there was so
little else and even even though Hedwig as a character
is I mean they've got an angry inch and an

(01:01:52):
angry outlook on life personality.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
I mean yeah an angry soul yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
Yeah but I totally understand audiences admiring and seeing themselves
in this character especially because again there were so few
genderqueer characters in film at the time and And again,
even fewer who were actually characterized as complex, dynamic human
beings with backstories and interiority. So even though audiences might

(01:02:22):
not look at Hedwig and think, I want to model
my behavior on how Hedwig behaves and treats people, there
was still obviously plenty of value in the character of
Hedwig from a representation and visibility point of view.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Totally. There's also a ton of gender non-conforming or trans
artists who love this movie. And I mean, I like this.
I was reading through just like my personal, this is
my sample size, but like Vera Drew really, really enjoys
this movie. A writer I love very much, Harmony Colangelo

(01:02:59):
makes a strong case for sort of what we were
talking about earlier, where this, Like the issue here is
the lack of other representation versus Hedwig being someone to
culturally vilify. And I think that, I mean, in that way,
it again sort of feels very in conversation with Rocky Horror,
where there's, I think we see very similar narratives around

(01:03:22):
people who are, and especially queer people who are still
figuring out like who they are. being really drawn to
Rocky Horror as a young person, especially the closer to
it coming out, because that was what there was. That
was as close as you could get in a mainstream
sense in a suburb or whatever at Blockbuster to finding

(01:03:44):
a story about a gender nonconforming character, even if that
story is extremely messy.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
It doesn't like Frankenfurter kill people.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
Sure does. Sure does.

Speaker 4 (01:03:56):
And I think, doesn't he call him, or she call,
they call themselves a transvestite.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Yeah, like using outdated language.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Right, right.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
But it was also made in the 70s.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
And also, not for nothing, both of what these movies
also have in common that I think make people very
forgiving of the trickier elements are great soundtracks. Great soundtrack.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
Great costumes.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yeah. Great performances.

Speaker 4 (01:04:19):
Absurdity.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Fun camp.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 4 (01:04:22):
I'm also thinking about the ways that like, as the
culture changes and the language changes, the critique sometimes, like,
comes with the language. Like, for example, you know, someone
like Gertrude Stein, totally gender nonconforming person, but there wasn't, like,

(01:04:45):
language for that at the time. And so, you know,
transphobes now are not, like, hating on Gertrude Stein. because
in all the history books like she's talked about as
a woman right you know whereas like with this i
mean i could even see had hedwig come out or

(01:05:07):
something like this story at an earlier time we wouldn't
be talking about her as a trans woman we would
be talking about her as like a man who was
forced into this because of the politics at the time
for safety and And it would just be like a very,
very different story. But this was the 90s and the gender,

(01:05:27):
you know, gender bending was like the terminology in the 90s.
And like this was a very gender bendy story. But
I'm also, you know, as I watched it this time
was really struck by the fact that as far as
we know, there's not a single actually trans person. or

(01:05:49):
gender non-conforming person in the cast. Like Miriam Shore.

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):
Well, John Cameron Mitchell uses he, him pronouns still, but.
He said he prefers the term androgynous.

Speaker 4 (01:06:05):
Uh-huh.

Speaker 3 (01:06:05):
But I don't know if he would have identified that
way back in 2001 when the movie was coming out
because he came out as androgynous in, I think, 2022. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:06:13):
Yeah. My guess is that he would have identified as
a gay man.

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):
As a gay man.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Which is, again, like a lot of similarities with Rocky
Horror where it's like a story of a gender nonconforming
character who... you know, at the time, or at least
it would have appeared at the time as being told
from a cis POV. Yeah. I think again and again,
I just come back to like, I, I do understand

(01:06:41):
the criticisms around, especially like the idea of like this
very traumatic transition that is inherent to this story. But
I can, you know, I see very much the point
of view of gender nonconforming and trans viewers being like, okay, well,
this is getting like this tremendous platform and stories about
trans people just existing in the world. I mean, very

(01:07:02):
much just don't exist in 2001 for sure. So it
is like a very specific cultural moment, but that's, again, that's,
that's not on John Cameron Mitchell. And I do want
to point out that three first names is kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
It's always a red flag.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
It's kind of the ultimate red flag. I've, I'm troubled
by people with two first names, but three is just ridiculous.

Speaker 4 (01:07:25):
What about people with last names as first names?

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
Oh, I think that that's kind of charming. I don't
know why.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
Like a man named Smith or something.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:34):
I knew a kid in high school named Newman. Like
his first name was Newman.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Or like a Parker. Kind of fun.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
You know, I, of course, everyone's allowed to have their
opinion and their critique. And I just, in my life,
in the last, I don't know, five, six years, like
as an an artist and like really coming into that
part of my own identity. Like I've noticed that like
the less I critique and judge and like look with this,

(01:08:05):
you know, microscope for like what I can say is
wrong about something, the less I think people are doing
that to me. So I've just tried to be in
the practice and my partner is really good at this,
like being in the practice of like really looking more
for what I like and appreciate than what I can
you know, shit on. And again, Jamie, like, I don't
think you're doing this, but I've just, when we're talking

(01:08:27):
about the critique that's out there, I think there's any
number of, of counterpoints to it, which is like, yeah, there, um,
you know, one for me is like, yes, there was
not a lot of media about centering gender nonconforming and
trans people at the time, but this, this movie showed
that there is a market for that, that there is

(01:08:49):
an audience for that. And that it may be kind
of cult-ish, but like this was a pretty successful, you know,
given its, like, budget. Like, it was a small movie.
It didn't cost a lot to make. And it has
left such an impression.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
It's in the Criterion Collection. Exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:09:05):
Exactly. So, like, yeah, there's problems with the representation and everything.
and the story itself and it could bring up, I
get why it would even be triggering to people and
why people would feel like this is not the conversation
that we want to be having about transness, but it
has made so much room for deeper, more complex conversations

(01:09:26):
and shown that there are people who are going to
want to, you know, consume that kind of art, which
I think is like, that is revolutionary.

Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
For sure. Yeah. I, I agree because as we talk
about on the show all the time, um, There are
movies that we sort of classify as like stepping stone movies. Yes, totally.
That like pave the way for more nuanced representations. And
this movie feels like one such example. The thing about

(01:09:56):
this movie that I struggled with more was the predatory nature,
the big age gap between Hedwig and Tommy and that
being presented without... comment or criticism.

Speaker 4 (01:10:11):
Do we, you said he was 17. Do we know
that he's 17?

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
It's said in text.

Speaker 4 (01:10:16):
It is.

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):
Okay. Hedwig says it like I met him. I met
him when he was 17 and I was in my,
I think early, late twenties, I think like 26 or
27 or something. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
A decade over. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
So he is under age and their first meeting is
Hedwig's Not asking for consent and assaulting him in the bathtub.

Speaker 4 (01:10:41):
Well, I just want to paint a broad, like a
more clear picture.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
Sure.

Speaker 4 (01:10:47):
Hedwig is in the other room. We're watching Tommy Gnosis
in the bathtub, watching Hedwig pacing back and forth with
the baby, jerking off. Hedwig comes in. finishes him off
and drops her card in the bathtub. You know, this
isn't meant to make it like any less bad. It's
just there, there's a broader, I think as in she's

(01:11:11):
noticing that there's perhaps desire for her. Obviously it's statutory
rape regardless, but he's jerking off like looking at her.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Fair.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
That does not equal him giving consent. to Hedwig touching him.
Although he doesn't like.

Speaker 4 (01:11:31):
He doesn't ask her to stop and doesn't say no.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
So it's, it's murky. It's another messy thing, but even so,
as we said, it's a statutory situation. And that, again,
that's just presented as perfectly fine and normal. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Which to me felt more, I mean, I think that the,
the clear outside of just like that is, uh, not
a good dynamic regardless of what the, like of the
people involved, but that like, it does present sort of
another queer panic archetype. I also feel, and this is not,
I mean, I think we are all kind of on

(01:12:09):
the same page here about it. I think that viewed
from the lens of the androgynous rock star, this was
incredibly common to see. I mean, like look at David
Bowie's personal history too, is like there is, And in
a way that, like, I'm not even, like, giving the
movie a pass, like, certainly not, but because I don't
think that this, that Hedwig, like, thematically really ends up

(01:12:32):
doing very much with examining this, but, like, the idea
of a rock star, or even someone with a rock
star persona, regardless of gender, preying on teenagers, I mean,
there is just, like, that is the history of rock stars.

Speaker 3 (01:12:46):
Unfortunately, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
But I don't think that the movie is really commenting
on that as much as just presenting Hedwig in that
legacy is the wrong word, but in that pattern of,
because I was trying to like, it's so, because this
movie is just so open to a million interpretations that
I like in a scene like that, it's like, there's

(01:13:10):
all of the ways consent is not given. It's extremely murky.
And it's like, well, what is, what is this scene
like trying to say is kind of a fun exercise
in Because I think that there's a way of seeing
it that is clearly interpreted as presenting a queer panic moment.
And there's a way of looking at it that is
like Hedwig doing the thing that rock stars do by

(01:13:32):
preying on someone underage.

Speaker 3 (01:13:34):
And then it's framed comedically with like the button on
the end of the scene of like throwing a card
at him. So, yeah, that that relationship, I struggled.

Speaker 4 (01:13:45):
Yeah, she's also, like, she's in, like, a mothering role
with him, a mentoring role with him creatively. Yeah, she
totally grooms him. And the power dynamic where, like, she's
the babysitter. I mean, it's just incredibly messy. It's also,
in this movie, the way that, like, Hedwig is not
a likable character, and yet she has this villain of Tommy, where, like, she's,

(01:14:10):
you know, she's been also acting in a way that's, like,
not okay towards Tommy, right?

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
Yeah, I mean, I don't view, as I was watching this,
I was surprised and challenged by how, I don't view,
I mean, I don't view Tommy as a villain. I mean,
I think I understand why Hedwig does because the creative
theft is pretty fucking unforgivable and also, you know, his

(01:14:36):
manifesting kind of her worst fear by denying her publicly.
and denying both who she is as a person and
denying her artistic influence on his life, both of which she,
I mean, she, Hedwig's whole thing, understandably, is that Hedwig

(01:14:56):
wants to be loved completely and has never been loved completely.
And I guess part of what I view the end
scene and the removing the clothes and the wig and
all that stuff is like Hedwig choosing to fully embody
and love themselves because no one is going to do
it for you kind of thing. But with Tommy, I, I,

(01:15:17):
I have tremendous sympathy for him because it's like, think
about like how, and I think that the movie, even
though Hedwig sees Tommy as her op, I don't think
the movie sees him that way in a way that
I appreciate it because like Tommy is, you know, a
very Christian sheltered teenager who, is put into this very...

(01:15:42):
Hedwig has the power in that relationship. Right. And it
doesn't seem like Tommy has other people in his life
he can turn to. So there's also this... And that's
not Hedwig's fault, but Hedwig becomes Tommy's lover and it
seems like guardian and creative steward. Teacher, yeah. So it's

(01:16:04):
just like... it's, it's hard to look at Tommy and
be like, well, fuck him. He sucks. Like he does
something shitty that feels very in step with the time
this movie was made in. And I think like, I
don't know, I guess I, my reading of the movies,
I don't think that the ending, whatever happens at the end,
whether it's like, I guess we're getting into Titanic territory now.

(01:16:26):
Is it a dream or does she die? Either way?
I don't think it happens. I think that like, wherever
Tommy ends up, I don't think we really know. I
think that like, this is Hedwig's internal battle to just
reconcile with the people who she's hurt and been hurt
by so that she can move on.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:16:45):
I think that Tommy from like a, you know, story
writing structural standpoint, like for drama to give Hedwig like
a sort of frenemy, like rival. Yeah. you know, it
creates drama, it creates tension, but I completely agree with you, Jamie.
Like I don't see him as he's, you know, he's

(01:17:06):
a kid. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):
He's, um, he's a survivor of grooming.

Speaker 4 (01:17:10):
Right. And he like is then launched into stardom, which
so many people think is like so covetable and enviable.
Like how could you ever complain about that? But it's
incredibly isolating. It's incredibly, it can be terrifying and, You
have eyes on you all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
He has religious trauma. And I also think that if
you're putting yourself in Tommy's headspace, the creative theft is
not the most unforgivable thing that happens in the movie
to me. And I think in some ways, there's a
way to view it that it's like Tommy is... can

(01:17:47):
be viewed as, and has been viewed in certain readings
as a victim. And like, this is maybe his way
of sort of getting back at Hedwig by, I don't know.
I mean, there's, there's so many ways to look at it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:02):
Indeed.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
Any, anything, anything else you want to talk about? I mean,
we could talk about this movie for a hundred years. Um, yeah,
I know that was all of my, uh, those were
all my big, my big things.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
Yeah, I think we've covered mine as well.

Speaker 4 (01:18:19):
Yeah, I think me too. I mean, I really do
love this movie and in all of its flawed glory,
you know, I think it shows us so many different
perspectives and like watching a kind of torture, two different
kinds of like tortured artists figure out how to make

(01:18:41):
their way in the world given all these like the
things that shape them.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
And again, this movie is a like stepping stone. yeah
movie is is really important and again like paved the
way for later representation of genderqueer.

Speaker 4 (01:18:59):
Characters yeah it'd be interesting to see like a remake
of this movie and how they would go about it
yeah i.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
Wonder yeah well uh does this movie pass the Bechdel
test you know I.

Speaker 4 (01:19:14):
Was wondering like how because it depends on how we
view the genders of these people you know right like
if Hedwig is always actually Hansel in there.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
Well I also think like because the version we use
and I'm like it feels so silly to get pedantic
about the Bechdel test like who cares but you know
Hedwig is I think like undeniably a gender non-conforming character
and so for me i'm like gender non-conforming character like
it's two people of a marginalized gender talking to each
other about something that's not a man so i think
it passes.

Speaker 4 (01:19:45):
Yeah and yitzhak as well regardless of how we view
their gender like it's definitely non-conforming right yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:54):
So i would say yes yes yeah passing yeah yeah
and then comes the bechdel cast nipple scale where we
rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples,
examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I think because
of this movie's legacy as a piece of queer cinema that, again,

(01:20:18):
paved the way for later representation that's perhaps less potentially problematic.
But again, this is the nature of so many of
these films. movies of like a stepping stone nature is
that there's plenty of things to criticize about them but
they're also sort of ahead of their time as far

(01:20:39):
as especially like mainstream representation goes so i say taking
that into consideration i'll give it like three or two
and a half i do feel like It needs to
be docked pretty significantly because of the predatory grooming relationship

(01:21:01):
with an underage character that is presented without comment or criticism.
I'll go two and a half. This is a tricky one,
but yeah, two and a half. And I'm going to
give them two. One to Andrea Martin.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
One to.

Speaker 3 (01:21:23):
Miriam Shore. And then I'll give my half nipple to
John Cameron Mitchell.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
Um, I think I'll, I'll go right down the middle to, uh,
due to mess, uh, just due to mess. But I
think like there, it's undeniable that this movie is tremendously influential, uh,
is still like a quarter century later starting a lot
of conversations and also paved the way for a lot
of filmmakers and a lot of movies. And the soundtrack

(01:21:52):
goes fucking nuts. So that's sort of all I have
to say on the matter. I'll go two and a
half as well. And I'm going to give two to
John Cameron Mitchell. I do think he is a genius.
And I'll give the other half to Steven Trask, another
queer icon who is not on screen, but a great writer.

(01:22:16):
And also a non-binary person who generally uses he, him pronouns.
Got it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:26):
I don't know how it works to give certain people
the nipple.

Speaker 3 (01:22:30):
It's just us. If you want to pay tribute to
something or someone in the movie.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
Don't overthink it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:37):
Yeah, it's interesting to me that, like, Caitlin, you feel
like there's no critique of the relationship being underage. Because
I feel like that's in there, even though it's not, like,
directly spoken to.

Speaker 3 (01:22:54):
I mean, in something as serious as a predatory relationship
with an underage person... I feel like there almost needs
to be pretty explicit condemnation of that by someone in
the story.

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):
I guess I guess where I maybe this is. Well,
let me know what you think. Like, I think that.
for me, like I, I'm not, I, I think it's
interesting that because we're so with Hedwig, the whole movie,
and we see whether it's in Hedwig's head or not,
everyone forgives Hedwig for what, for what people do to Hedwig,

(01:23:33):
but Hedwig doesn't really make amends with people for the
numerous shitty things that Hedwig does. And again, it's like,
I think that that, that people's mileage will just vary
on that.

Speaker 4 (01:23:46):
Yeah. Um, well, I guess, I mean, I think this
movie gets docked because it doesn't address, well, it's almost
exclusively white people. The only person of color in the
story is.

Speaker 2 (01:24:05):
Luther.

Speaker 4 (01:24:06):
Hedwig's husband.

Speaker 3 (01:24:07):
And then there's, like, the Korean backing band that.

Speaker 4 (01:24:09):
Hedwig works with.

Speaker 2 (01:24:10):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:24:11):
They're so good.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
They're great, but... Barely there.

Speaker 3 (01:24:14):
They're in one scene. We don't really know anything about
these characters. Right. And then they disappear from the story.

Speaker 4 (01:24:20):
Yeah, and it's almost like a joke that he's backed
by this, like, Korean girl group. And then, you know,
the casting of her husband as... black feels more like
colorblind casting to me than some, like an intentional, like
it wasn't written with that in mind. Um, so for
me that the movie definitely gets docked for that. It

(01:24:42):
also like, you know, just doesn't really, yeah. Like intersectionality it's,
there's no like discussion of, yeah. I mean any, anything else,
like there's some class stuff and I don't think every
movie needs to hold all of these, but, um, but it's.

Speaker 3 (01:24:58):
Not, But there was potentially room for things.

Speaker 4 (01:25:02):
That don't appear. So, I don't know. I want to
give it a three, I guess, just because I think
it opened doors and really, like, blasted down walls for.

Speaker 3 (01:25:15):
The way the Berlin Wall fell.

Speaker 4 (01:25:16):
That's right. It tore down walls. For gender nonconforming people
and for stories and, you know, not just, like, in
the story itself, but, like, as a film... in that
moment of time, it, it really paved the way for
like so much of the media that we've had since
that can tackle these themes more deeply as a result.

(01:25:40):
So that's where I, yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):
Where I land.

Speaker 4 (01:25:43):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:25:43):
Hell yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:25:44):
Well, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 4 (01:25:45):
Oh, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):
This was so much fun.

Speaker 3 (01:25:47):
Yeah. Where can people follow your work, buy your book,
et cetera?

Speaker 1 (01:25:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:25:54):
Um, I am on Instagram at consent.wizardry, though I'm considering
changing it to just my name. So if you can't
find me there, you can just search my name. My
website is consentwizardry.com. I'm on Substack as unsolicited advice. You

(01:26:17):
can also search my name. And Consent Wizardry will take
you there as well. And I teach classes for... people
pleasers for artists for um people who want to learn
to teach consent uh and my book is available like
pretty much everywhere books are sold but you can also
get it specifically through the North Atlantic Books website which
I would recommend um you know very preferable to Amazon

(01:26:39):
or like a giant chain yes how to do consent
without sounding like a robot it'll be out September 15th Yay.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
Congratulations.

Speaker 3 (01:26:48):
That's really exciting.

Speaker 4 (01:26:48):
Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:26:51):
Indeed. Of course.

Speaker 3 (01:26:52):
And you can follow us on Instagram at Bechtelcast and
you can support the show by signing up for our Patreon,
aka Matreon, at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast, where we release two
bonus episodes every single month on... an amazing genius theme.
Matrons get voting rights to pick which movies we cover

(01:27:16):
and all that good stuff. It's all for $ 5 a month.
And what a damn good special that is.

Speaker 2 (01:27:21):
So true.

Speaker 3 (01:27:22):
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):
I think so.

Speaker 3 (01:27:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
Never changed. Never changed. And with that, let's strip naked
and walk into the abyss or heaven question mark.

Speaker 4 (01:27:32):
Or heaven. Hmm. Towards the light.

Speaker 2 (01:27:37):
Bye. Bye. The Bechdelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted
and produced by me, Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 3 (01:27:47):
And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by
Sophie Lichterman.

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
And edited by Caitlin Durante. Ever heard of them?

Speaker 3 (01:27:55):
That's me. And our logo and merch and all of
our artwork, in fact, are designed by Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 2 (01:28:02):
Ever heard of her? Oh, my God. And our theme song,
by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

Speaker 3 (01:28:07):
With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

Speaker 2 (01:28:10):
Iconic. And a special thanks to the one and only
Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 3 (01:28:15):
For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com.