Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back

We're celebrating Caitlin's birthday with an episode on Star Wars Empire Strikes Back (1980)!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism. It's the patriarchy, zeph and
best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Jamie, I am your father. Oh join me, we can
rule this podcast as father and son.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
You didn't chant you, you only added the word podcast.
And then I'm like, no, I would sooner free fall
into space. Then rule this podcast with you. You sick? Oh fascist? Wow? Yeah,
I know it's my birthday though, I know. Sorry, happy birthday,

(00:51):
but you did, Yeavy and you you brought it on yourself.
We can't. We can't excuse fascism just because it's your birthday. Caitlin,
Happy birthday, thank you. It's true. This is my birthday
episode Big Year. Holy shit. Yeah, I'm forty bitch. I
love it.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
I love it, and you've well tell tell the listeners
at home how you've been celebrating.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
It's kind of been. I like that for you. You
are so good at having a birthday and it becomes
birthday season, not birthday the day. Yeah, it's a whole
this time around, it's a whole year. I started in April.
My birthday is in a few days from the release
of this episode, but I started back in April by

(01:35):
going to London to see Paddington the musical. That was
my big birthday treat to myself, and it did not disappoint.
It was so good. I'm so happy for you.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
That is like, Yeah, the second it happened, I was like,
I know that Caitlin is going to find their way there.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
It really is just a matter of when. Yeah, but
you made quick work of it, Thank you, thank you. Yes,
I was very efficient. But yeah. And one of the
other ways I'm celebrating is by making us talk about
Empire strikes Back.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
Which I am actually I mean, wow, life comes at
you fast because I'm so happy to do it, and
I can't imagine myself saying that when this podcast started. No,
I mean, this is just like a big nostalgia year,
especially us wise, because it's our ten year. We're still
figuring out how to celebrate.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
You know. But I think so much about how I remember,
like your thirtieth birthday show at Nerd Melt yeah, and
how that was a time where it was around the
time that the Star Wars sequels were starting to come out,
and I just couldn't have cared less. But time continued
to march on, and then I realized I was wrong

(02:52):
as hell. These movies are fun, They're good, They're fun
and flawed. And guess what, I'm not better than a
damn person in the world, unlike I thought when this
twenty two or whatever. So I'm so excited. Yeah, I
mean should we? I guess If this is your first
Bechdel Cast episode, welcome. It's a fun one and we'll

(03:15):
tell you what the show is really quick. This is
our podcast where we take a look at your favorite.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Movies and in this case, Caitlin's favorite movies, using an
intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test as the jumping
off point for a discussion.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
But Caitlin, yes, what is that? What is that? Not
to quiz you on your birthday? Yeah, while making me
do labor. It is a media metric created by our
dear friend of the podcast, Alison Bechdel. Quick version is
and our version is it? Do two characters of a
marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?
And is there conversation about something other than a man?

(03:51):
And I think you'll find the reason that we're kind
of glazing over the specifics of the test in the
case of this movie is because well, it doesn't pass.
Even does it doesn't help plow even a little bit
to this movie.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
So you know, like there are certain episodes where we
get really specific about like, well, it could mean this.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
It could mean this.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
But there are certain movies where you're like, well it
either it's episodes where it happens a lot or never
even runs the risk of happening, and this is the latter.
We don't really need to get into the.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Nitty gritty today, No we don't, but we do need
to get into the nitty gritty of our relationship with
Star Wars and Jamie, you were already talking a little
bit about yours, but tell us what's your relationship with
this movie specifically and then the larger universe.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, it's been it's been a journey. We actually we
talked about this a fair amount in our Prequels tour,
which happened early last fall in the Midwest, where my
relationship with Star Wars began with the prequel. I just
was not a sci fi kid at all. I was

(05:06):
not sci fi or fantasy. I know, we were very
different sci fi fantasy action. We're just not my vibe.
I was like, performatively to criticize myself at eleven years old,
performatively against a lot of it, because I don't know.
I had this mentality that like magic was cheating, So

(05:27):
that's why I don't know. But Star Wars, obviously, I
remember I didn't see the first prequel in theaters. I
did see the second one at a drive in, and
remember it being the first movie.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
I was like, Wow, that was boring, and you were
not wrong. I was not wrong, and you can listen
to our Prequels episode for more on that. And then
the third one I performatively loved because they like kind
of turned Darth Vader into like a sexy, hot topic character,
which I was into so all over the place. But

(06:01):
I never really watched or engaged with the original trilogy
when I was a kid, so I wouldn't have seen
The Empire Strikes Back at least until I lived in
LA I would guess, not for the first time until
like the last five years.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
Probably I just never I mean, and then it definitely
rewatched it last summer when I was doing like pretty
heavy prep on the prequel and the original trilogy for
our for our tour, so I can now confidently say
all this, YadA, YadA, YadA. I can now confidently say
that Empire Strikes Back is indeed my favorite of the

(06:42):
first trilogy.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
It's a lot of people's favorite.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
I would see, Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a
controversial opinion, but it like it just it hits, it hits,
and it I mean, while it makes a lot of
the mistakes that movies of its era also make, there's
a lot of tokenism, there's a lot of like there's well,
we'll talk about it, but I think that in terms

(07:06):
of mistakes that Star Wars often makes, it tends to
avoid a few that I associate with this franchise in
a way that I appreciate. And the performances are so fun.
It's a great story. I love Lawrence Casten. I enjoyed
learning about Lee Brackett, who I didn't really know anything about.
Same and yeah, I don't know, I just this is

(07:27):
my favorite one of the trilogy.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Although I think that because I know your favorite is
Return of the Jedi, that while that's.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Not one that I love, I do love the Ewoks
and if the Ewoks were in Empire strikes Back, it
would be a perfect movie.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
I agree, yes, thank you. I know that I cite
Ewoks as the reason that I love Return of the
Jedi the most, and that's not entirely true. There are
other things I like about it. And also, and I
might have brought this up before, either on this podcast
or I've guested on other Star Wars things in the past,

(08:05):
but the version of Return of the Jedi that I
watched growing up was an edited for TV version of
the movie that we taped from TV onto a blank VHS,
which like just trims a lot of the I think
unnecessary bits from that movie makes it a lot tighter,

(08:25):
and that version is my favorite movie. When I watched
the theatrical cut of Return of the Jedi, there's weird
stuff that wasn't in the edited down version that I saw,
and I was like, what the hell is this? I yeah,
I get why people think it's kind of not the best,
But was there anything else about your your relationship with

(08:48):
Star Wars Before I start to wax poetic about it, No,
I just my favorite. I love Babbu Frick. I didn't
see The Last Jedi when it came out in theaters.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
I might have seen episode seven, but we definitely saw episode.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Nine together and we were freaking it up. That's my
full history. Incredible for my Star Wars fandom. I mean,
you have history, I've got history. This is a fandom
that I do not talk about as much as some
of my other fandoms, such as Paddington or Titanic, for example.

(09:28):
But I am a long time Star Wars head, especially
this original trilogy. I am not a completionist when it
comes to all the Star Wars content out there. There
are a bunch of series that I haven't watched, and
I mean, at some point it's just like it kiss
to be too much. Yeah, so there are many fans
who know a lot more like Star Wars lore than me.

(09:52):
But I've seen this original trilogy dozens of times, probably
starting around like age nine or ten. This specific movie
I've watched many many times. I love the World. I
also love and Or. I have an and Or tattoo.
I also love Baboo frick Ough now we're talking. I'm

(10:14):
back excited to see him in the Mandalorian movie that's
about to come out. I can't wait.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
We were just talking about because we were just talking
about Kerry Fisher on a recent episode of Daly's Eeitgeist Icons.
Yeah I haven't seen him. Sec Oh I remember you
texting me saying that the Babu frick Gians were in
Mandalorian season three.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
Right, that wasn't me because I did not watch the
show that far.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
Oh okay, someone must have told me either way. But yeah,
he's he's back, baby, He's on the poster and everything.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
I can't wait. Oh yeah, I'm very excited. So yeah,
like because that movie's coming out, it felt also like
a good time to talk about this movie, specifically because
the lore of the mandolori Orians, like Bobaffett is like
one of those people. The first Star Wars movie that

(11:07):
he appears in is this one. I think, Like, I
know he's not in a note of hope, but there's
like also random like there's a Christmas special that everyone
forgets about. But anyway, like I mean, people talk about
the Christmas Special. This isn't isn't isn't Boba Fett like
a meaningful part of that. I barely remember it. I

(11:28):
just remember you meet Chewbacca's whole family and they look
so fucking freaky. But honestly is worth a watch. We
should watch it some Christmas together, should cover it, We
should cover it, Yes, yes, but yeah, I love Empire
strikes Back, and yet Return of the Jedi is still

(11:52):
my favorite, and I will probably insist that we cover
that for another birthday episode of mine, maybe even next year.
We'll see Oh my god, wow. Okay, but uh yeah.
Shall we take a quick break and then come back
for the recap. Let's do it and we're back. Okay.

(12:19):
So first, I'll start with a very brief recap of
episode four, just in case anyone needs a refresher. The
evil Galactic Empire has built this huge planet destroying Death
Star space station thing. We meet Princess Leah. She's a

(12:39):
member of the Rebel Alliance that are rebelling against the Empire.
She puts blueprints for the Death Star into R two
D two and then he and C three po escape
to the planet of Tattooine, where they end up in
the possession of Luke Skywalker, who links up with a

(13:00):
Jedi knight named Obi Wan Kenobi. Together, they find a
hologram message from Princess Leah about these Death Star plans,
so they set off to deliver R two D two
and the plans to the secret base of the Rebel Alliance.
They do so in the Millennium Falcon, a ship piloted

(13:23):
by space smugglers Han Solo and Chewbacca. You've seen it
at the Lego store. Yes, it's a you know, a
little known ship called the Millennium Falcon. And then as
they're flying around in this ship, they get pulled into
the tractor beam of the Death Star, where they find
and rescue Princess Leia, who had been captured by Darth Vader,

(13:47):
the big bad Boy. Yeah, and if you don't know
who Darth Vader is, we can't help you. Sorry, we
cannot help you. Yes, yeah, he and Obi Wan Kanobi
have a lightsaber battle. Obi Wan is killed, the others
escape in the Millennium Falcon again and they make it
to the rebel base where the Death Star plans are analyzed.

(14:08):
They discover a weakness and after this big space battle,
Luke Skywalker blows up the Death Star. The end and Now,
and that leads us right into episode five. Empire strikes
back with a very satisfying little time jump that I appreciated. Yes,
we skip over some stuff and we're caught up to

(14:30):
speed in the famous Star Wars opening scroll. Of course,
I believe it's been a couple of years since the
first I was seeing three years after the destruction of
the Death Star, is what I was saying, which actually
I didn't remember in preparing for this, and actually did
kind of help address some of the story questions I had,

(14:52):
where you're just like, well, it's been three years, you know,
there's a lot of shit that's gone on. It's been
eighty four years minus eighty one years. At this point,
it's like, you know, Lea and Han, it's like it's
like a work crush, you know, like it's not love
it for a sight. They've been they've been colleagues, yes,

(15:12):
for years, right, And we don't know exactly how much
time they've spent together in those three years. Yes, I
was not totally clear on that. But we learn in
the opening scroll that Imperial troops are hunting members of
the Rebel Alliance across the galaxy. A group of Rebel fighters,
including our friends Luke Skywalker, Princess Leah, Han, Solo, Tobacca

(15:35):
C three, PO R two D two, and others, have
established a secret base on the ice planet of Hath. Meanwhile,
Darth Vader is obsessed with finding Luke Skywalker and has
sent out like probes to look for him. Question Mark, like,
we I have to believe we're not meant to truly know.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
I did, Like I remember when I rewatched it last summer,
being like, ooh, this is a fun little fashion moment
in the Empire strikes back that because it starts on Hath,
like everyone kind of has this like little ellll Bean.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Thing going on where they're wearing parkas, and there's at
least for Han and Luke, there's a big like I
took my hood off and here I am and I'm
still sexy and awesome moment that is so like we
come to this place. I really I enjoyed it. I
enjoyed the the de robing. Sure, sure, yeah, I meant
to do this earlier during my like history and relationship

(16:37):
with Star Wars. But I have a little show and
tell moment if you'll indulge me. Oh please, I have
a bunch of Star Wars memorabilia that I've collected over
the years. Huh and so first, great for a podcast
that we've refused to pivot to video. A Yes, this
is an audio medium. However, I will describe these things
and then people will really, you're a writer, Wow, thank you.

(17:00):
We're going to conjure an image. My tools are words. Okay,
So this thing is a canister of haf chocolate, Hoth cocoa. Wow, yeah,
ok yeah, Hoth coco. I also have a Boba fet
This is a coin bank. What is it about?

Speaker 3 (17:21):
What is it about boba fet that is so appealing
to people? I like, I've never quite understood it because
I was so surprised on the rewatch of being like, oh,
this is the movie, we meet Boba fetted and.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
He's so like random to me. I just like, I'm like,
I don't understand why people have but people have like
an absolutely, like fervent connection to this character. I never
really understood it either. He does appear on screen a
little bit more in Return of the Jedi, but cumulatively
his moments on screen and Empire are maybe one minute

(17:56):
of screen timely there. They don't even call him my
name either. Darth Vader just keeps calling him bounty hunter.
He's a guy doing cool stuff. But there's a lot
of guys doing cool stuff in Star Wars, and I
don't think the prequels really help retcon that, honestly, because you're.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
Like, oh, Boba fet has a difficult relationship with his father.
What's fucking new in this franchise?

Speaker 2 (18:17):
So true? God? Yes, Okay, a few more items, and
some of them are very specific to this movie. This
is a little book called I Just as Soon Kiss
a Wookie and other Star Wars quotes. This is a
book called the Star Wars Cookbook Wookie Cookies, Wookie Cookies. Yes,

(18:39):
I mean, I guess it was just sitting there precisely.
This is a book called how to Speak Wookie. And
then there's buttons on it. I wonder if the batteries
are still alive. No, they sure aren't. I'd pressed a
button and nothing happened. Okay. Last thing I'll share is
we simply can't forget my Ladies of Star Wars Deck

(19:00):
of Cards. Yes, yes, I honestly do sometimes because my
my recall on the original trilogy. Unfortunately, my recall is
best on the prequels because and again you should go
back and listen to our Prequels episode because I'm very
proud we did a lot of work to prep for that.
We sure did. But this one. This one, for me

(19:21):
at least, is gonna be a little looser because I
did not have weeks to prepare and or tickets on
the line. Yeah, but I kind of forgot if this
was the the one with Java or not. It is
not the one with Java, and I think that that
works to its advantage quite a bit, I would say so.
Although I love the sequence at Jaba's palace, so I.

Speaker 3 (19:44):
I, okay, this is like, well, this is related but
not related to Empire Strikes Back. But I was so
shocked because I'm so out of the loop with this
franchise that I know that, like fans.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Knew about Jeremy Allen Jaba for probably months and years,
but I was so when I was watching the trailer
for the Mandalorian and Grogu and they were like Jeremy
Allen White, and I was like, where I must have
missed me? I don't know about this of what do
you speak? Look up Jeremy Allen White Star Wars. He's
playing like Jaba's son nephew. Ever, forget where it is.

(20:20):
He's Jeremy Allen Jaba. You're like, what, Well, if you
recall I made a big deal about Jaba's small son
who appears in Is that Jeremy Allan Jaba. I was
so let me see. I also was like, I guess
I don't understand what point in his career Jeremy Allen
why does that? This is a confusing career marker where

(20:42):
you're like, you can be in Star Wars, We're not
gonna look at you like, yeah, well, it's like when
Daniel Craig plays a Stormtrooper who's on screen for like
three seconds in one of the sequels. Yeah, but you
wouldn't know if it was him because he's in a Stormtrooper.
But he was already very famous by that point. But

(21:03):
Jeremy Allan Jaba is like second built. He's like a
big part of Yeah, he plays Roda the hut Rada,
the hut I'm not sure how to pronounce it, but yeah,
he's calling him Jeremy Allen Jaba. That I just was.
I don't know why that was so shocking to me.
I just don't think of him as Jeremy Allen Jaba.

(21:24):
I mean, he contains multitudes, I guess. So anyway, anyways,
can't wait for Baba Frick, I will be seeing Jeremy
Allen Jaba in theaters. Same do you want to go together?
Oh my gosh, if you'll have me, I will. Okay, Okay,
let's do this, do it? Okay? Back to fire strikes back,

(21:47):
we cut too. Hof the ice planet, Luke is riding
around on his ton Ton creature when the Abominable Snowman
attacks and captures him. This is so iconic where you're
just like, I didn't know that he could get to
wherever this is. It is like right up there with

(22:08):
monsters incorporated, with places you don't expect to see. The
Abominable Snowman appear. No, he's around. Yeah, he gets around.
He gets around, including a long time ago in a
galaxy far far away, and so he captures Luke Skywalker. Meanwhile,
on the rebel base, Han Solo is getting ready to

(22:30):
leave to pay off his debt to Jaba the Hut,
father of Jeremy Allen Jaba. Princess Leah gets when the
Han Solo is planning to leave, and she wants him
to stay because he's a valuable asset to the rebellion
and also maybe because she likes him. Question Mark, We'll

(22:52):
talk about it. We'll talk about it. But whatever feelings
they have for each other, they are unw willing to
admit it to each other, and also it's mostly Han
solo being a complete dick. Yeah. Hahn realizes that Luke
is missing, so he goes out looking for him. Cut
to Luke in an ice cave, the Abominable Snowman's ice cave,

(23:18):
where he uses his Jedi powers that he's been working
on to summon his lightsaber and kill the Abominable Snowman.
But the Abottable Snowman made an incredible recovery at least
by two thousand and one. In Monsters Inc. To meet
Mike Wazaski. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, of course, Luke

(23:38):
escapes into the blizzard. He's freezing to death. He starts
Jedi hallucinating and sees a vision of Obi Wan Kenobi,
who tells him to go to the Dagabus system and
find Master Yoda so that Luke can complete his Jedi training.
It's part of there ison that Jedi shit is so

(24:00):
fun and has to be so useful as a writer,
because it is just having a plot hallucination, a plot
based hallucination. Whenever it's convenient, Obi Wan Kenobi's ghost like
force ghost will just show up and either deliver some
exposition or move the plot forward, and you.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
Really don't need It's not that you don't need to,
it's that you're not allowed to ask questions because the
very concept of faith is on the line. It's a
very high stakes plot device they have.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
There, yeah, yeah, and good for them. Yeah. So then
Han Solo finds and rescues Luke. They return to the base,
where Han continues to be a dick. So Leah kisses
Luke to perhaps make Han Solo jealous, which is one
of cinema's most flaccid kisses. Also fully we don't know

(24:54):
in this movie, but fully ancestual. Also yeah, she kisses
her brother, but she doesn't know that they're brother and
sister yet, so it's actually kind of cool and fun
and flirty, I remember, right. Okay, So one of Darth
Vader's probe droids shows up on the planet Hof, meaning

(25:15):
the Empire knows that the rebel base is there, so
the rebels start evacuating, but the Empire launches an attack.
There's a big fight scene with Luke and the other
rebel pilots battling the Empire and they're at ats, which
is also not they are not named in this movie.

(25:37):
I don't know how anyone figured out what they're called,
but they're those like giant four legged things. I okay,
this is the way that I think about it, unfortunately,
but because I have two mini pets. But okay, they're
called what I think it's pronounced at ats or maybe
they're called atat's, but it stands for like all to

(26:00):
rain something something.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
So to me, they look like and always have looked
like if my cocker spaniel, Sunny, fans will know if
he got this, if he got the surgery that Petropascala
gets in materialists.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
That's what to extend his legs. I was like, that's
what it would look like if Sonny got the surgery,
you would look like there's I think they're so funny.
I don't see them refer to comedically enough. They're too big.
They're just too big. They're they're so legsy, tall and skinny,
and you're just like the design flaws are abound, truly

(26:39):
to the like, it's so easy for the rebel pilots
to destroy them. They're they're called all terrain Armored Transports.
I've got notes. But also like it's so funny.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
I mean I'm sure that this happens in actual terrifying
you know, military industrial complex machines where you're just where
it's just so unbelievably monstrously efficient.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
I mean, one of my favorite things to watch is
videos of like AI robots that there's like a presentation
of them. Someone's like unveiling this super high tech AI
robot or whatever kind of robot thing, and then it
immediately trips and falls and like breaks apart. Yes, it
is so. It hits so hard seeing a Boston Robotics thing.

(27:23):
Eat shit, it feels so good to see. It's awesome.
My favorite one is it like goes well, I didn't
even if it goes viral. I also feel old saying
goes viral.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Now, I don't know if people say that anymore, but
there's that one of I think it's a Tesla robot
trying to like serve a drink and then it.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Just like passes out. It's it's it's real fun. Yeah, yeah,
I love those videos. Yeah, okay, fuck them, fuck fuck them. Yeah.
The problem with Star Wars is while it is cool conceptually,
uh you know, robots aren't gonna like help or anything. Yeah,
but well it's always the Empire that uses them. That's true.

(28:04):
I mean, well droids, I guess robots. Droids are actually robots,
and yeah they are. Look, it's complicated, it's complicated, it
is it is. Yeah. But anyway, this battle is happening,
the Rebellion is losing, and then Darth Vader shows up
at the rebel base just as Han Leia, Chewy and

(28:27):
c Threepo managed to escape in the Millennium Falcon. But
Star destroyers and other Imperial ships are chasing and shooting
at the Millennium Falcon, which is damaged and can't get
to light speed, so they end up in this asteroid
field that they have to maneuver through. They enter a

(28:49):
cavern on one of the bigger asteroids to hide while
Han and Chewey repair the ship. But wait, there's something
weird about this asteroid or this cave, but they don't
know what's going on yet. Meanwhile, Luke and R two

(29:10):
D two head to the Dago bus system. They kind
of crash land into this like spooky bog and they're
trying to figure out where they are where This Yoda
character is some I was I was gonna say, kind
of a bit of a swamp like a like a
like kind of somewhere where like a like Shrek lives

(29:32):
kind of like somebody can start playing it anytime, kind
of that wow, that kind of vibe. And you know
this is a swamp where a green outcast lives. That
I And it's interesting and there's someone should write their
thesis paper on why green house casts, you know, sort

(29:55):
of trend towards these settings. I have Okay, I have
a letter box list that I've been working on. Okay,
it's called something like movies where a character who is
green has been cast out by society and lives alone somewhere. Grinch,
Oh my god, Grinch, Shrek, Wicked, Wicked.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
Wow, for that's that's official. Yeah, and Yoda that wow.
What's going on? What's going on here? And in a way,
because there's like the little I've.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Been well whatever it's Minion season, Kitla and I well,
you don't have to tell me twice. Hello, we're gonna
I cannot wait for the new Minions movie. But that's
a separate like little yellow cartoon characters are another whole
thing too, Because you've got SpongeBob, you've got Minions, you've
got like the list goes on and on. You're just like,

(30:57):
what is it? What does it mean? Someone give me answers?
Let's continue to explore this, shall we? Yes? But anyway,
Yoda is Shrek, but they don't know that yet. Luke
and are two D two and come upon Unlike Shrek Yoda.
To be fair, Yoda is like open to others being

(31:17):
at his swamp, but it really depends. He's kind of
like if Shrek and Donkey were one character. Yes, yeah, wow,
huge for Yoda. What a compliment? Yeah, right right, because
like Donkey, Yoda is annoying. He's really annoying and always
like but also you know, wants company so badly. It's true.

(31:42):
So Luke is looking for Yoda, but he doesn't know
what Yoda looks like or who he is, and he
comes upon this weird green, little muppety guy. Boy is it?
I'm up? And it's literally Frank miss Piggy. Yes, yes,
and he's super annoying. So Luke is like, what the fuck, dude,

(32:04):
leave me alone. I'm trying to find Yoda, and this
little guy is like, I am Yoda and you are
too impatient, too angry, and too old to be a Jedi.
You crusty bitch. So here's maybe a controversial thought. Yeah,
and it comes with many layers and does tie into

(32:27):
our previous prequels research Yoda, Like, what a wild swing
the character Yoda is conceptually versus how hugely like society
embraced Yoda as a character. I think with this in mind,
things make a little bit more sense into like the

(32:50):
jar Jar of it all. Now I look at how
weird and annoying Yoda is, an empire strikes back and
sort of understand why George Lucas, who is like not
known for really thinking things, thinking how things might be
perceived through sure might have thought that jar Jar was

(33:12):
really going to work. We talk about in the prequel
all of the reasons that that may not be the case,
but there's precedent for it. Yeah. I feel like people
talk about jar Jar like an annoying character coming out
of nowhere in Star Wars is a completely out of

(33:33):
nowhere thing, but it's like there is precedent and there's
precedent of it working. Yeah, but yeah, shrug, who knows. Anyway,
Yoda is reluctant to teach Luke, but Luke is like, no,
teach me, please teach me, Daddy, teach me daddy. Luke
always wants a daddy. That's kind of his whole He's

(33:55):
obsessed with having a daddy. I mean, to be fair,
they keep dying true, So he thinks back on the
Millennium Falcon, they're working on the ship. They're still trying
to repair it. Han Solo continues to be an ass,

(34:15):
but Lea quote unquote likes it, and they kiss on
the lips and again we'll talk about it. But then
they go outside because some creatures are lurking around and
there's again something really weird about this cave, except it's
not a cave. It's a giant space worm that they

(34:38):
have to fly out of slash narrowly escape from. Fun.
It's fun. This is a great part. Yeah, I love worm.
So then we see Darth Vader having a little chat
with the Emperor about Luke Skywalker, how the Force is
strong with him, and how if they can turn him

(35:00):
to the dark side he could become a powerful ally
and Darth Vader says he will join us or die.
And I think one of the things that the Empire
strikes Back has going for it is like, not too
heavy on the Emperor. You really have to have a
careful balance of Emperor in your Star Wars movie. I

(35:21):
feel too much Emperor is annoying and or boring. A
little bit of Empire is fun. I agree, And I
think there is too much of the Emperor in Return
of the Jedi and also in the prequels and sequels,
except except in that amazing fight with Samuel L. Jackson.
That's the right amount. Oh my gosh. Yes, there's fun

(35:42):
Emperor and there's not fun Emperor. I like that he's
there for a scene and then we just move on.
We move on. Yeah, Okay. So we're talking about the
dark Side and they're trying to get Luke to come
over to it. Back on Digoba, Yoda has agreed to
start training Luke, and so they're doing that. Luke asks

(36:03):
about the dark Side. Then he goes into this cave
where he faces his fears that he will be tempted
by the dark Side and become someone like Darth Vader.
So now we have this like looming thing over Luke,
and it's also freshman year philosophy seminar. What's going on

(36:23):
in this cave. It's like, it's it's good shit, it's fun. Yeah, Meanwhile,
Darth Vader hires a bunch of bounty hunters, including Boba Fett,
to find the Millennium Falcon, and apparently a lot of
people were like, hubba, hubba, who's that? And I'm just like,

(36:44):
he looks like a fucking any anyone else in Star Wars.
I don't get it. There is certain like sci fi
fan braid that I just like, I need it really
spoon fed to be because I don't understand. I don't
necessarily get this one either. I understand that he's like cool,
I guess, and his costume's cool, But why people glombed

(37:05):
onto him so much? I don't know. I don't quite
know if you did, or know why sound off. I'm
genuinely curious why this character of all characters for sure. Okay,
So Luke keeps working on his Jedi training, which is
mostly just like floating rocks around. He does try to

(37:26):
Jedi lift his ship out of the swamp. Luke literally
kind of like has a little grad school side quest
like yeah, he's like he's doing a workshop. Yeah, like
many like many grad school courses. You're like, so, what
is the function of this? I'm sure it'll become clear.
Eventually and it does, Yes, it does anyway. Luke he

(37:50):
he can't lift something as heavy as a spaceship out
of a swamp, but Yoda does it with relative ease,
and Luke is like, oh shit, I'm a free in
eighty eight. I still have so much to learn, mupp
It's awesome. Yeah, and then Luke, with his force powers,
sees a vision of the future which is Han and

(38:13):
Leah in danger. Yeah. So Luke wants to go help them,
but Yoda and obi Wan's force ghost try to discourage him,
saying it's a trap and he needs to finish his
training and he's being tempted by the dark side. Blah
blah blah. They're like, don't quit grad school and he's like,
don't worry, I'm just gonna take a sabbatical. Yeah. He's like,

(38:37):
it's just one session. I'll be back. I'll finish my degree.
I swear, I swear. So Luke leaves and obi Wan
says to Yoda he's like, ugh, that boy is our
last hope. And then Yoda is like, no, there's another
and we're like, oh my gosh, who is it. Meanwhile,

(39:01):
Leah and Han and Chewy and C three po arrive
in Cloud City, where we meet Landol Kelrisian. He is
an old pal of Hans and also a scoundrel like Han,
so not someone they can really trust, and there's definitely
something suspicious going on. It turns out that Lando sold

(39:24):
them out to Darth Vader, so our friends are imprisoned
and tortured. C three Po is torn to pieces, Hans
Solo is frozen in carbonite and turned over to Boba Fett,
and this is where we have the famous scene of
Leah saying I love you and Hans says I know,

(39:46):
and we're rolling our eyes and they're all right. A
lot of people were irreparably harmed by that line of dialogue,
including me as a child, So I'm not above that
the line that no, but no, it's not being above,
it's just it's it's the line that inspired a million
emotionally volatile relationships. Yes, sad but true. Yeah. And then

(40:12):
Luke shows up to Cloud City and there's a big
confrontation between him and Darth Vader. They're lightsaber battling. Vader
is like, join me on the dark side. It's really
cool over here. Meanwhile, Lando double crosses Darth Vader to
then help his friends. After all, so Lando lea Chewy

(40:36):
c three po they're running around. They're trying to save Han,
but they're too late, and then they have to make
an escape from Cloud City because it's being taken over
by stormtroopers and everything. We cut back to the lightsaber battle.
Darth Vader chops off Luke's hand and then reveals to Luke,

(40:56):
I am your father, and we're like narratives a movie
about fathers and sons. Yeah, and then it becomes nine
movies about fathers and sons, try as it may to
occasionally become other things. That is where we keep going.
It is ultimately because a movie about fathers and sons. Ultimately,

(41:18):
I mean, the sequels, right, are ultimately kind of more
about Adam Driver and Hans Solo than they are about
Ray and the people. They can't decide if they're hurt, Like,
they can't decide who Ray's parents are, so it's not
about her and her parents. They're like the Emperor whatever
I mean. And I'm not the first and only person

(41:39):
to make this observation, but the sequel trilogy really suffers
from two men having a narrative dick measuring contest with
each other because it's Ryan Johnson and JJ Abrams being like, no,
it's my thing. No, it's my thing, which is like,
you know, annoying and ridiculou. But it's also like you

(42:01):
would think that there would be a system in place
that would like decide who was going to do what
in advance. It is still so shocking to me. And
I don't care about the continuity of Star Wars, so
I'm not like super worried about it, but it is
shocking to me every time I hear how those things
played out, where it was like, see, your plan was
to spend like a billion dollars of these movies and

(42:25):
you didn't want to decide in advance who was going
to do what and when and if they agreed with
each other about a single thing like that is kind
of like it's almost awesome, how how like ridiculous it is.
I guess it's you could see it as encouraging the

(42:46):
huge corporation of Disney, who they let Ryan Johnson do
his thing. But right, they're giving creative control to the filmmakers,
but at what cost? Right, But then they can't decide
if they like regret doing that or not. I don't know.
There's been so much discussion over the sequels, but what.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
Does seem interesting to me after just like rewatching this
and watching watching the prequels and you know, not having
quite as firm a grip on the sequels, But it's
like it is sort of different versions of the same
cultural biases that become an issue every single time with
this franchise. They never true, they're always promising they're about

(43:28):
to course correct, and they just kind of it seems
like outside of like ancillary series like and or, but
out of like non feature entries to the franchise, they
never really quite managed to do it.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
So I.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Okay, So Darth Vader has just told Luke that he
is Luke's father, and Luke is like, oh my god,
what Kenobi told me that you murdered my father?

Speaker 1 (44:00):
There?

Speaker 2 (44:01):
That bitch is a liar. Yep, it's funny. In Return
of the Jedi, Obi Wan's Force ghost appears again and
Luke confronts him about lying to him, and Obi Wan's
Obi Wan's explanation is like, well, if you just like
really interpret it very weirdly, actually what I told you

(44:21):
was true, so it was just shut up I'm just
saying stuff whatever. Yeah, Okay, So Vader wants Luke to
join him so that they can rule the galaxy as
father and son, and Luke is like pass and he
like drops into the abyss and ends up like dangling

(44:45):
from an antenna or something in Cloud City and he's like, uh,
somebody help me, lay up. Help and Leah, who is
flying away with the others and Millennium Falcon, here's Luke's
call because maybe the Force is strong with her also.

(45:08):
So they turn around and rescue Luke and they're trying
to get away, but the Falcon's hyper drive is still
fucked up, so they can't get to light speed, and
Luke is having a Force conversation with Vader about joining
the dark Side. He's literally having a job interview on
like over the Zoom Force Zoom. Yeah exactly. Then R

(45:31):
two D two fixes the hyper drive and they escape
and then make arrangements to go rescue Han Solo from
Job of the Hut on Tatooine, which will happen in
the next movie. And that's the movie. So let's take
a quick break and we'll be right back. Yeah, and

(46:03):
we're back. Well, Caitlin, I mean birthday privileges. Where would
you like to begin this discussion? Oh my gosh, well,
I feel like it makes sense to start, as we
often do, with some context. I did some research on

(46:24):
Lee Bracket, and if you're wondering, huh, who's that? Well,
I didn't know. Let us tell you.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
I didn't know before researching for this episode. It was
a delightful little journey because Luke, sorry, George Lucas is
simply so sonomyous.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
My god, wait, is that why his name is Luke?

Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (46:45):
I just did, like a Freudian slip. It's like if
I named my protagonist Loft, You're like, you know, Loft
my last name. It's like CBS Luke Skywalker. Well, I
never connected those dots, but maybe wow, are we the

(47:06):
first we? With Star Wars? I never believe anyone's the
first person to make an observation, but what if we were?
Who knows? Yeah, Anyway, what I was trying to say
is that George Lucas is so synonymous with Star Wars
and its conception that people tend to forget who else
was involved in the making of these movies. So, of course,

(47:27):
the first movie, episode four was written and directed by
George Lucas. But Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin
Kirshner and the screenplay was written by Lawrence Casten and
drum roll, please a woman. Lee Bracket is her name,

(47:48):
which would that ever happen again? No?

Speaker 1 (47:52):
You?

Speaker 2 (47:52):
I don't think so? Wow?

Speaker 3 (47:55):
Really good guys, great job guys. And Lee Brackett has
a kind of fascinating life story. Do you, I mean,
do you want to take it away? Because she passes
unfortunately before the movie comes out.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Yeah. Yeah, so here's the research I did. If you
have anything extra, please chime in. But Lee Brackett was
one of the most prominent woman writers during the Golden
Age of sci fi, so like the forties and fifties,
I think primarily she was known as the Queen of

(48:33):
space opera. She wrote a bunch of sci fi novels
and short stories throughout her career. She also has numerous
screenwriting credits, including The Big Sleep, The Long Goodbye, and
Wild Right like crossing genres too totally, and she worked

(48:55):
on an early draft of Empire Strikes Back. So what
happened here is that Lucas.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
George Lucas reached out to her right, Yeah, yes, he
approached her because it was like, George Lucas was a
big enough sci fi fan that I'm sure that he
was aware.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Of her totally. Yeah, And what I read was something
to the effect of he he didn't like love building
out the world of Star Wars and like figuring out
all the lore. So he's like, let me find a
sci fi writer who's been doing this for decades who
loves and bring her in. Yeah. Yeah, So he approaches

(49:34):
Lee Bracket and in late nineteen seventy seven they come
together and basically like put the pieces of this story
together for the sequel to Star Wars. George Lucas had
some core ideas in mind, but he wanted Lee Brackett
to kind of form them together into a cohesive story.

(49:58):
So she went off. She wrote a draft and turned
it into George Lucas. However, she was sick with cancer
and by the time he like kind of came back
to her with notes on her draft, she was hospitalized
and she died a few weeks later, very young, tissues

(50:21):
in her sixties. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
Yeah, this was I mean speaking of just like how
especially when you get past a certain point in history.
But this is nineteen eighty It's pretty ridiculous how infrequently
women writers are acknowledged or remembered, because I mean, and
this is not a dig at Lawrence Kasten, whose work

(50:44):
I really love, but like everyone knows who Lawrence Casten is.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
And part of this is that apparently there's this kind
of phenomenon where people generally acted like nothing from Lee
Bracket's draft appeared in the fire film, and so people
just kind of weren't really talking about her and her
contributions to the story, which is especially that makes me

(51:10):
frustrated on the George Lucas side of things, particularly because
they know she's like not around to advocate for herself. Yeah, totally.
So it is just like kind of a full erasure
for sure. And for many years her draft of the
screenplay was available to read, but it was only available

(51:30):
to read at a library in New Mexico and only there, Okay,
so it was hard to get your hands on, yeah,
until twenty sixteen when it was published, and so I
would be interested in reading it. I have not read
that draft of the script, but for those who have
read it, the consensus seems to be that many of

(51:53):
the basic story beats between Lee Bracket's draft and the
final film are more or less the same. There are
a few differences, such as the love triangle between Luke, Leah,
and Hahn is far more prominent in her draft. In
her draft, Luke has a secret sister named Nellith.

Speaker 4 (52:14):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
I remember learning this in my Women of Star Wars
research last year. Nelleth the character who would never be
nice and try right. Oh, you wanted to write another
woman in the movie. Well, too bad. Well you're gonna
have to wait another twenty years. And don't worry, we're
gonna write her out immediately. Yeah, we won't give her parents.

(52:37):
We'll never figure out who her parents are. Another difference
was in Lee Brackett's draft, Luke's father and Darth Vader
are separate characters, and then there's some other kind of
minor differences here and there. I mean, yeah, that's a
to be fair, no no offense to our friend Lee.

(52:58):
That's a pretty big chain. If that's a Lawrence Casten idea,
that's Darth Vader being the father kind of crucial fair, yes,
for sure. Yeah, But I think people were sort of
acting like her entire draft was scrapped, right, and they
basically started from scratch. But like Lawrence Casten was building
on her work precisely, and so and I'm paraphrasing a

(53:23):
piece from the Den of Geek website, But in her
draft there is a battle on hof, the flying through
the asteroid field sequence is there, as is the city
in the clouds, various unexpected betrayals, the climactic duel between

(53:45):
Luke and Darth Vader. So like so much of her
that's massive. Yeah, so was she?

Speaker 3 (53:51):
I mean, and I did not watch the credits when
I was doing my rewatch is she credited I name
in the original movie or is it just Laurence.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Cast In she is credited? She is. Okay, that's good
because I think that there's like, in general, a like
still to this day, cultural misunderstanding of like how writing
for TV and film works where it's well, I feel
like there's a cultural misunderstanding because it is unclear in

(54:23):
many cases, and you've talked about this on the show before,
where like your name will be on an episode that
you didn't actually write that version of the script, or
you did write the script, and then you are not
credited because xyz reason.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
So there's like all these it's like the crediting system
is very weird because the crediting to some extent, is
just done to justify how money.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Is distributed between writers.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Which is very confusing as well, Like the WGA crediting
conventions are really confusing. But like even all that aside,
like like you're saying, the fact that one writer is
credited disproportionately kind of under cuts the whole point of
like how it works, which is like that they're even
if they're not working together at the exact same time,

(55:08):
which they weren't, they're still collaborating, and that it ends
up being kind of this genderless dick measuring contest that
mysteriously writers who are not CIS men tend.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
To lose almost always, as evidenced by what we both said,
which is that we were not aware that a woman
named Lee Brackett wrote a draft of this movie. I've
been watching this movie for over three decades. Oh was
this your first time hearing it for? I didn't know
if it was Yeah, Like I wow, Yeah, that's ridiculous.

(55:44):
I mean that, and that it took until twenty sixteen
for you know, that to become even knowledge that we
could have, because it's like truly without and this is
like where fan communities are can be amazing. It's like
without people willing to go to the library in New Mexico,

(56:04):
it's like her contributions could have been downplayed for decades
to come. Yeah. Yeah, So her contributions to the film
are undeniable, but her work is often completely overlooked because
people are just like, yeah, George Lucas and Lawrence Kasden, duh.

(56:25):
And it is at that point I think, particularly on
George Lucas, to emphasize her contributions, and I think that
that failure to do so is something that we're allowed
to be pissed off at. Sure. Yeah, so shout out
to Lee Brackett rip our friend Lee Brackett. Yes, So

(56:49):
with that in mind, let's talk about the movie. Although
there's a little bit more of I think behind the
scenes stuff regarding Leah slash Carrie Fisher that will kind
of dovetail into perhaps a discussion about Princess Leiah.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
Yes, maybe I should have said that during my Star Wars.
My biggest connection to Star Wars is I love Carrie Fisher, Yes, more.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
So than anything else. Yeah. No, she was so awesome,
gifted writer rip to her as well, just amazing. God,
I want to live in a world where Carrie Fisher
was allowed a crack at any Star Wars script. I know,
like a proper crack at it, right, because listeners may
or may not know that Carrie Fisher was a highly

(57:38):
sought after script doctor for a while and she would
be hired to fix or polish or punch up scripts.
But that was after she was in the original Star
Wars trilogy, right, Okay, So Carrie Fisher like was pretty
open about like saying that she was having a hard

(57:58):
time connecting to her character Leah. Yeah, she found her
to be pretty one dimensional. She joked that basically the
only thing she knew about Leya was that she likes
to wear white clothes. You're like, hey, so that's actually
not a caaracs.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
That.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
And we know from the diaries that Carrie Fisher kept
at the time of filming these movies that she was
envious of Harrison Ford because he was allowed to rewrite
dialogue for Han solo.

Speaker 3 (58:38):
Often on the fly, so that he would never have
to actually learn how to act. And that's my I'm
not a Harrison Ford fan.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
I think he's obviously like undeniably he's got riz all
that stuff. But it's like, well, yeah, because he can't
do anything else, so of course he's gonna need the dialogue.
She doesn't have range. No, that is many movie stars don't.
But yeah, yeah. So a prime example of this is
during the scene where Leah says I love you and

(59:09):
Harrison Ford improvised the I know response. So he was
doing that from time to time on set, just kind
of rewriting his lines and doing whatever he felt like. However,
director Irvin Kirshner would not allow Carrie Fisher to do
something similar. But what she did do was just kind

(59:32):
of make a bunch of notes for herself for the
laya character in an attempt to kind of provide some
extra characterization in context that this script doesn't script. This
was discovered when her copy of Empire Strikes Back was
like put up for auctions. So I believe after her death, yes,

(59:56):
I saw this as well, and a lot of her
note for herself was something along the lines of man
are so disappointing, and so that is something that it is.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
So I don't know, it's so cool watching actors. It's
just like every time you see and this isn't I mean,
this movie is a great movie. But every time you
see an amazing performance in a movie that you're like,
how the hell did you manage to do a great
performance in this like otherwise kind of boring movie, it's
because of stuff like that. It's so cool that, like

(01:00:32):
she had.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
To create a character where a character didn't exist because
she cared. Yeah, it's awesome, dude, I love it. I
know if only any of the actors did that in
the prequel trilogy. Well, let's not blame the actors in
the prequel trilogy. We know who who the problem was. Yes, yes,

(01:00:54):
but like I think Iwan McGregor in the prequel trilogy,
it's a great example of someone giving a like an
amazing performance in like pretty boring movies. I agree. Yeah,
I was thinking of Samuel L. Jackson, who is one
of the most prolific actors of our time, and he
gives the flattest, dullest performance imaginable. But I'm not blaming

(01:01:20):
that on him because iconic director George Lucas sucks directing
and doesn't like people were actors or apparently you just
told me writing so so. So you're an editor, man,
He's an editor, he's a special effects guy, he's a
he's a special effects whiz. Yeah, and that's why he

(01:01:42):
made the Star Wars movies. Yeah, which is all good,
but it is futty to learn.

Speaker 4 (01:01:47):
Like.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Oh, and he also hated writing.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
I was like, okay, we hated actors and writing, directing, directing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Cool. Yeah. Anyway, So Carrie Fisher, through her performance, helps
to give Princess Leah more characterization than she otherwise had.
And I think it's a huge reason why I always
connected to the Princess Leah character. I always admired her.

(01:02:16):
I think it's one of the reasons I like this
trilogy so much. She's doing so much with so little.
She's amazing. Yes, however, she still is the only woman
in the galaxy. Yeah, it's I mean, and I have
to be willing to criticize my faves too. It's kind
of like Minions vibes. It's it's every setting in the

(01:02:40):
original Star Wars trilogy has minions rules, has full on
smurf rules. Yes, yeah, there's only one woman and we're
not allowed to ask where the others went. It's still
just her. But I mean in that there's well, it's
it's interesting because I'm curious what you think. I think

(01:03:02):
that Leah. I also feel this way about Episode four,
but I think more so about this movie. She is
a very active character. She is a character with a
lot of power and a lot of agency, and while
she is not always the person making the most active
decision in from scene to scene, she is always a

(01:03:23):
part of the action. It's something I really appreciate about her.
I think that sometimes, especially kind of older Star Wars fans.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
Will use that very true fact as a way to
dismiss some of the more stereotypical aspects of Leah. To
be like, I mean, I encountered this today and I
was like, okay, where they're like it doesn't matter if
she's the only woman, because she well did in that scene.

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
You know, like you're just like, okay, we've got to
be able to hold a couple things at once here.
Because I love that she welded. We celebrate that she welded.
What was she doing we don't know, and no one
could tell us, but like, yeah, she's always actively involved.
But to be fair, when like Han and Cheweye are
welding this ship, I also don't have any fucking clue

(01:04:16):
what they're doing. Well, that's that's what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
It's like she's doing she's doing space sides. I just
think it's funny that, like the sort of tokenism around
gender that exists in this trilogy. I think for big fans,
they're sometimes like, you can't say it's not feminist, she welded.
I was like, yeah, but has she met another woman before?

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
Has she made the questions like she's a part of
a love triangle, because really sloppy romantic interests, the sloppiest
love triangle's ever written. Yeah, but yeah, Like I rewatched
episode four as well, just to see if there were
any significant differences between how she's framed in the first

(01:05:01):
movie versus this sequel, and I think the main difference
is that in episode four she I wouldn't even say
primarily but she is like the princess who has to
be rescued. Yeah, and they kind of drop the more
princessy elements of her in this I thought, I don't know,

(01:05:22):
I agree, No, I totally agree. And even though even
though she has to be rescued, I would almost argue
that in that movie, she isn't necessarily damseled the way
other damsels in distress will be treated, because she's taken
as a political prisoner rather than like a woman love

(01:05:44):
interest being captured to raise the stakes for the male protagonist.
And she's taken as a political prisoner because she's suspected
of rebel activity, which she was doing because she was
putting the plans to the deathk Star into R two
D two. Well, unlike most other women who become damsels
in a movie, she was actually doing something to impact

(01:06:07):
the direction of the plot. And then as soon as
she's released from captivity, she jumps right back into the action,
which also we tend not to see in a typical
damsel situation. So I think from the jump she has
been written as a character who is a very significant
part of the narrative, the action, the beats that move

(01:06:30):
this story forward.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
And it's also that she's always been a like revolutionary general,
which also remains to be true. I mean, I think
throughout the rest of her time in the series, like
in the sequels as well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
Yeah, and so you know, we could talk about the
girl Boss optics of becoming a military general, sure, but
you know, I think for a military for the resistance,
for the revolution, Yeah exactly. Yeah, So I just I
don't know, I appreciated that you know, two things are
true here, and I think also to build on because

(01:07:08):
we covered episode four, we should recover it because we
covered it. One of the I remember I was late
because I was working at Playboy, and it was ten
years ago when we first did that episode. It's our
first episode that appears in our feed. Yeah, so for now,
for now, but yeah, I mean it's I feel like she,
you know, I love that she's a revolutionary. I love

(01:07:30):
that she you know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
I think maybe ten years ago it was like, well,
we don't want any love stories, and now I think,
you know, the show has grown to be like, no,
it's not that, it's that it really depends on what
the love story is.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
And like, m hm, so let's talk about that. Yes,
let's talk about it. Okay. So Han is in love
with Leah, but he cannot be vulnerable enough to directly
communicate to her. Yeah, presumably because he's afraid of rejection.

(01:08:05):
So in episode four, Han has a conversation with Luke
about how like, oh, would a princess ever get with
a scrappy guy like me? So he's afraid of a
class based rejections. But instead of you know, being vulnerable

(01:08:25):
and communicative about his feelings, he nags her, he projects
onto her. There are all these scenes toward the beginning
where he's like, you want me to stay because of
the way you feel about me. Yeah, he's handsome and awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
It's the BISHEMI test vibe of just like he and
and what's interesting. And I don't think we could have
talked about this when we talked about A New Hope,
because I don't think it was out yet.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
We now know. We just talked about this on Zeitgeist
the other day that Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford had
an affair with a significant age gap. She was a
teenager and he was in his early thirties on the
set of A New Hope. Not this movie, but that again,
just like speaking to how aggressively Han Solo mirrored who

(01:09:19):
Harrison Ford was a lot of the issues Leah is
having with Han in this movie are issues that Carrie
Fisher was having in like trying to have this relationship
with Harrison Ford, of.

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
Like being emotionally inaccessible, of being dismissive, of you know,
doing all these things that I think men are socialized
to be permitted to do and women are socialized to tolerate.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
For sure, So we have Han Solo not treating Lea
well because of his insecurities of being rejected by someone
he loves. Now with life, it's telegraphed to us that
she has feelings for him as well, but also doesn't
want to admit it, perhaps also for a class based reason,

(01:10:10):
like a social status thing where she might think he's
beneath her or something, or maybe because he's kind of
a being a dick.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
It's like when you're really attracted to someone who is
an asshole, and you're like, maybe best to just keep
this as a crush.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Yes, And to Leigh's credit, she is always pushing back
against him when he's being a dick. She's calling him delusional.
She calls him a stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking
nerf Herder, an iconic line, but she it is very like,
we're never meant to fully believe that. And I think

(01:10:52):
that the reason we're not supposed to fully believe that
is because of how you're socially conditioned long before you're
sitting in the theater, right. And yes, so it's like
one of those tricky things where I think there was
like an era of media criticism where it would be
like Star Wars did this, and it's like, well, no,
star Wars didn't do this, but star Wars reflected this

(01:11:13):
to a very young audience. Yeah. Star Wars didn't invent this,
but it did perpetuate it. Yeah, and in a way
that like, I mean, you only need to visit a
forum or two to understand that some people really took
this mentality quite seriously. Yes, yeah, okay, So then there's

(01:11:35):
the kiss scene. Yeah, this is when Leah is welding,
aka doing the most feminist thing ever women be welding.
Oh my god, it is. Do you remember when I
think we talked about.

Speaker 3 (01:11:48):
This forever ago what Julia Roberts movie is it where
we were like, oh, the the rom com trope, where
like we know that she's she's going to get the
guy the end.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
If she like fixes car at some point. Oh yeah,
it's like the mechanic trope to be like, I'm I'm
a girl that's more doing more traditionally masculine things. Therefore
I'm not like other girls. I'm cool. I'm Yes, it
happens in a lot of movies. Actually, I don't think
this is when Leah is welding. She's just doing some

(01:12:20):
other repair work on the Millennium falcon anyway, not important. Yeah,
she's fully evolved at every step of the action. Yes, yes,
Han comes in as she's like doing this repair work.
He starts immediately invading her personal space, trying to either
like take over what she's doing or help. She shoves

(01:12:40):
him off. He starts condescending to her, calling her a
nickname that she doesn't like. He's touching her hands. Intimately,
she's telling him to stop that, he keeps inching his
face closer and closer to hers. He has also backed
her into a corner so she cannot, like get away.

Speaker 3 (01:12:59):
It is the most Harrison Ford romantic scenario. I mean truly,
it is the most Harrison Ford romantic scenario that exists.
But like just in terms of being textbook, Murky consent
the whole premise and relies on it being Harrison Ford
in a movie.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Yes, exactly, Like, yeah, he's charismatic and rugged, so obviously
anyone's gonna want to kiss him, is the idea. So
he's he's close to her. They exchange a few more
words and then he interrupts her with a kiss. Their
kiss is interrupted when C three po comes in and

(01:13:37):
then as Han is talking to him, Lea sneaks away.
As far as the kiss itself, it's also murky because
it's like, Okay, I wouldn't classify it as a surprise
kiss because she also goes in for the kiss, but
only because she is written in such a way that
she's like relenting to him basically, and the scene feels

(01:14:02):
quite coercive. Yes, he has treated her badly up until
this point and continues to like nag her after this.

Speaker 3 (01:14:10):
And also I think that it is like a tricky
like even if we are to believe that the character
like that, you know, I do think that like obviously
Carrie Fisher is like giving a performance where it's like, oh,
she's attracted to Han, but to be clear, which I mean,
we we know we're fully appreciated the choir here, but
that like, being attracted to someone does not entitle them

(01:14:33):
to do anything to you physically, yes, of course. So
like again, it's just like it's a lot of murky
logic that this movie is, like, assuming we're all on
board with.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Totally, because you can read it as either like he
wears her down until which is like also doesn't feel
like quite it either like there's just this like I
don't know how to describe exactly what's going on, because
it's because it could be like, actually she secretly likes
it when he mistreats her and nags her in many scenes. Yeah,

(01:15:08):
we don't know exactly what it is, but it's not good,
and it's a lot of like again, it's like it's
a lot of tropes that like it's that this is
just one of the most famous examples of It reminds
me of our conversation around like when we redid our
Twilight episode not too long ago, of the idea of
like fantasy fulfillment and yeah, but how murky a conversation

(01:15:35):
that becomes like where if like you if this scene.

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
Affected you in a way that like you're like, oh,
that's such a hot scene like that that's not an
irrational reaction based on how people are socialized, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
It's just because like I mean, it's complicated by the
fact that there is this like there is a trope
that like, well, women want to be ravaged by a
masculine either man or beast. That's a pervasive trope throughout literature.

(01:16:10):
But then some women do kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:16:14):
Want that, right, Well, yeah, it's right, it's just like
presenting it that like whatever, Like not everyone wants that,
and some people do want that, but this story beat
tends to prove.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
I mean it's like kind of just like Fopio on
the cover of a paperback novel. Thing they're doing here.
I mean that's literally what the like the movie poster
looks like with the two of them. For sure, he's
like kind of looming above her. She's like, if I'm
remembering it correctly, like she's got her head kind of
thrown back. Yeah, I mean, it evokes a lot of

(01:16:51):
romance novel stuff, and so it's hard to know what
to do with because I think that for me, it's
like it's mainly how young, like the general audience for
these movies were. Yeah, in a way that I think
we've seen in the way that the fandom has sort
of played out over the decades that there are some

(01:17:11):
positive takeaways right where it's like Leah is a very powerful,
outspoken woman who is always a member of the action,
who is still subject to these romantic troops exactly. Yeah. Yeah,
and like, let me know what you think about this,
But in various scenes when we're seeing her making strategic

(01:17:36):
decisions about what the Rebel Alliance should do. She's giving
orders to people parentheses men because it's just a bunch
of men. They respect her authority, they don't question her choices.
So it almost seems like even though there is a
dearth of women in the galaxy, or at least in

(01:17:57):
the Rebel Alliance and the Empire, there doesn't really seem
to be like systemic space sexism against her.

Speaker 3 (01:18:06):
No, which feels very much like borrowed from like Star Trek,
where you know, we are also to believe that there
isn't space racism, right, but also that doesn't stop Star
Wars from being subject to all of the race associated
tropes that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
Existed in the US in nineteen eighty so, and we'll
talk about landolcar Parisian I'm sure though, But yeah, there
aren't these like systemic, like these systems of oppression and bias. Really,
it's just like individual men being shitty to lay us,
such as Han Solos. Well, that's what makes it kind

(01:18:48):
of like again like this bizarro cultural artifact where you know,
we're being told we're in a world where women can
easily be you know, unquestionably in power and powerful, but
how can we hold that being true with Leah still
being treated like a woman might have been treated in

(01:19:09):
nineteen eighty in the US. Like, you know, it's just again,
It's like it's not a problem specific to this movie
or franchise, but you know, you certainly do feel the
reverberations of this kiss and this relationship dynamic the I
love you I know, which is like, you know, I

(01:19:30):
got to hand it to whichever writer wrote it. It's
a snappy fucking or I guess Harrison Ford, Harrison Ford
impacted on set. It's a snappy line of dialogue and
it like tells you who this character is. But yeah,
I don't know. I mean it. It is obviously like a.

Speaker 3 (01:19:49):
Very particular melodramatic dynamic that in a movie that I
think is pushing back on gender archetypes with Lea in
some ways, it really doesn't romantically or with this love
triangle that becomes increasingly incoherent as they're changing their mind

(01:20:10):
between movies, which I guess is what Star Wars has
always done.

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
Yeah, it really represents a relationship model that so many
men thought they should follow, so many women thought they
had to follow. Like for what a burgeoning romance was
supposed to look like and again I fell for it.

Speaker 3 (01:20:34):
It does feel like well wherever, we won't need to
get into it too much today. But how you know,
every feminist movement comes with a period of backlash, some
of which is over, some of which is like a
little more subtle. And I think that like at every
step of feminist representation in media, because Lea is too

(01:20:56):
many an iconic feminist character. That for many of these characters,
especially in like bigger projects, it's like they can have
power to a point or in certain arenas, but in
other arenas they have to remain submissive and okay with
blah blah blah blahlah. But then that you know, that

(01:21:16):
is a little bit in conflict with the fantasy fulfillment.
Like it's just it's it's we're not Luke, We're not
at Jedi grad school, but like, but it is.

Speaker 2 (01:21:27):
It is really interesting because I think that we're having
a very different conversation about this now than we would
have when this show started. It's true, it's true, well,
growth growth, we love to see it. Well, happy birthday
to me. And speaking of age, you already mentioned this,
but the Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher age gap because

(01:21:51):
I believe she was was at nineteen and he was
in his early Yes, she was an adult, but she
was still quite young. Yeah, not so not legal but
not good and so yeah, he is pretty significantly older
than her well and married also oh right, oh my god, yeah,

(01:22:12):
I forgot about that for the sake of the relationship
in this movie. It's a classic case of you know,
a Hollywood age difference where the woman is far younger
because society hates older women. And once again, happy fortieth Birthday.

Speaker 3 (01:22:31):
Which like which luckily Carrie Fisher had no shortage of
things to say about when she was younger and when
she was older. Yeah, but yeah, I mean it is
it is like so unquestioningly like to the point where,
like I had to, I had to have it pointed
out to me when I was first watching Star Wars,
where You're like, yeah, he's visibly so much older than her,

(01:22:52):
and I was like, yeah, I guess I'm just used
to seeing that, right, But yes, don't. Do you have
any other thoughts on Ley and this?

Speaker 2 (01:22:59):
I mean, the other thoughts I have on her are
are generally quite complimentary, Like I just I love this
is my favorite movie for her just a few things,
such as in this movie she's never damseled, but she
is instrumental in saving Luke at the end, which normally

(01:23:20):
we don't see. That her costuming does not sexualize her,
which or objectify her. I mean, that's a different conversation
in Return of the Jedi, But in this movie, I
was also thinking about Padme. Yeah, I've spent a lot
of time thinking about we both have and how you

(01:23:42):
know not It's again, I'm not saying this to be
like super complimentary, but it was. It is interesting to
observe how the state of the Western feminist movement is
reflected throughout whatever over like basically half a century through
these movies, because somehow in two thousand we're in a
worse position than we were in nineteen eighty, which was

(01:24:04):
also just culturally true. Where you know, between the second
and third movies, in this and the original trilogy and
the sequel the Original Trilogy, we decide that while and
Return of the Jedi, we have the whole jab a thing,
but we decide that Leah is more powerful than we
could have possibly conceived of. She is a Jedi and

(01:24:27):
she has access to the Force. Whereas in the prequels.
Padme gets an unbelievable character downgrade.

Speaker 3 (01:24:34):
Between movies two and three. She is more a part
of the action than she'll ever be in part two,
which isn't saying that much, and then in part three
she's just weeping in a room the whole time.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
She's pregnant. She's gonna be dead soon. Yeah, it's just
like it's it's she's she's really left in the trenches.
So it is. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:55):
I do appreciate that Leah is being set up a
rocky third movie, but a movie in which she will
continue to be I don't know. I haven't I didn't
watch Return of the Jedi before this, and I know
she has sidelined for a significant part of the third movie,
so maybe it's just tradition, right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:14):
I also didn't rewatch it for this, so it's not
super fresh in my mind. But again, we'll just cover
it my next birthday. But uh, yeah, I love Leah,
And even though I understand why, at least during the
filming of this movie, Carrie Fisher was kind of lukewarm

(01:25:36):
on her get it luke warm. I wonder if I've
made that joke before. I feel certain you have. I
understand why she's a beloved character, and yes, I love
her and that so much of that has to do
with Carrie Fisher. Yes, I also love Leah, and I

(01:25:59):
think this is of the three movies kind of like
the best showcase of what's great about her character. Shall
we talk about Lando Calarusian? Let's talk about our friend Lando.
I don't have a whole awful lot to say, but
similar to how Leah is the only woman in the galaxy,

(01:26:21):
Lando is the only black person in the galaxy, at
least with lines of dialogue that we yeah, which is
and again this is another like I think Star Wars
fan cope with all due respect if there's members of
the community listening that people were like, well, James Earl
Jones is a black actor. You're like, uh, well come on, yeah,

(01:26:43):
but we never don't see him, and when you do
see him, he's a white guy. He's a white guy,
and he's canonically hating christiansen So that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:50):
Actually does not defly like, well, well, James Earl Jones,
you know, is the most iconic cast member arguably in
the entire franchise. Like, we can't be making that sort
of argument, right, I have a little bit to say
about Lando, who is like Billy T.

Speaker 2 (01:27:09):
Williams is just like, oh so amazing. Yeah, I was
looking for a little background in how he is characteristic,
and there was a fair amount written about Lando as
a character when Solo came out. And then I think
that conversation promptly stopped because no one saw that movie.

(01:27:30):
But that's speak for yourself. I saw it in theaters
twice for some reason. There were dozens of you there.

Speaker 3 (01:27:38):
But Donald Glover plays a young Lando Calrisian in that
prequel movie. And so anyways, there was like a brief
period of time in twenty eighteen where black culture writers
were reflecting on the legacy of Lando. So this is
pulling from a Slash Film article from twenty eighteen by
Monique Jones Pimpin and the Black Exploitation Roots of Lando Calrissian,

(01:28:03):
in which she kind of traces she mentions something that
George Lucas is always He's like, Star Wars isn't racist,
And I'm like, Okay, if you have to say it,
maybe you need because Star Wars famously I mean, and again,
like if we're thinking about Star Wars in a longer timeline,
this is something that the franchise makes steps towards but

(01:28:27):
never actually meaningfully improves on because you think about how
John Boyego was rightfully speaking out during this sequel trilogy
about how severely scaled back his character was and how
he was a race from promotional materials in certain countries
that were extremely racist against black people.

Speaker 2 (01:28:46):
So same thing with the Jar Jar Binks of it
all and all of the racist Trump's president ar like
it just well. I was also going to say the
Rose character played by Kelly Marie Tran, she was the
recipient of so much racist vitrey, Yeah when her character
was introduced, and then she.

Speaker 3 (01:29:03):
Was completely sidelined in Rise of Skywalker. This is historically,
I mean, this happens in movies quite a bit with
actors of color that are initially cast in large roles.
This is certainly the case consistently in Maine Star Wars
franchises without fail. I mean the fact that Samuel L.

(01:29:25):
Jackson turned in a mid performance through like something's going
on here.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
Something's not right.

Speaker 3 (01:29:30):
But with Lando, who is the first significant black character
in the Star Wars franchise ever. Yeah, Monique Jones talks
about the cultural ideas around blackness that are being pulled
from to create this character. So something I wasn't sure
about but is true, is that Lando Caversian was always

(01:29:53):
envisioned as a black character, and was also always.

Speaker 2 (01:29:57):
Envisioned as Billy d Williams.

Speaker 3 (01:29:59):
Specifically, I guess George Lucas was a fan, so like
in his original notes, he was like Blue Dye Williams,
So this part was kind of written for him. But
it's pulling on a series of tropes and specifically the
blaxploitation movies of the seventies. So quote Lando further defines

(01:30:20):
the mainstream image of blackness as being one synonymous with
coolness and slickness, but with that image comes negative associations
of blackness being shifty, dangerous, and untrustworthy. It's unclear if
Lucas was directly inspired by blaxploitation, but Blaxploitation's pervasiveness certainly
informs Lando's character, from the cape to his roguish personality.
There's a reason that many fans refer to Lando as

(01:30:42):
a pimp in space. In just looks alone, Lando fits
in with the sweet Sweetbacks, Dolomites, and superflies who preceded him.
The iconography of the pimp is one of the lasting
controversial effects of blaxploitation popularity. The image is emblazoned in
our minds. A charismatic black man with perm straight hair,
a flashy hat, and equally flashy clothes. Auf fur or
cape of some kind was always in the mix. Lando

(01:31:04):
iiO has relaxed hair, a saunter an expensive looking blue
cape lined with luxurious gold fabric, complete with a gold
neck chain. Looking at Lando from a blaxploitation perspective, the
character continues in the tradition of updating the trickster persona
via the pimp. Even though Lando is in a galaxy
in which racism doesn't exist, his costuming and his cape

(01:31:25):
in particular calls back to the movie Pimps of the
recent past of the time, showing the audience he has
the mystique that the other white characters can't quite replicate
or understand. His clothes exemplify his ability to work outside
the system that is still despite it being at a
galaxy far far away, set and run by white people.
In this way as well, Lando's character harkens back to

(01:31:46):
black exploitation. His individual acts of resistance, such as tricking
Han and working with Darth Vader with the goal of
securing Cloud City's protection are quote conceived in confusion and
executed in panic. He doesn't stop to think how his
double crossing would have come back to cross him. All
he knows are the ways of the swindler. Despite his
role as a government leader, his trickster ways are tied

(01:32:07):
to his blackness. And whether or not Lucas realized this,
he still gave his critics ammunition against him despite his
inclusion of a black character. So it's a very interesting piece.
She also later goes on to review how Lando's character
is addressed in solo, which isn't relevant here. But we haven't,

(01:32:28):
you know, really talked about the black exploitation genre in
any deep way here, and I wanted to just acknowledge.

Speaker 2 (01:32:34):
That that was a.

Speaker 3 (01:32:37):
Very very thoroughly discussed and people are of so many
minds about it genre that was, you know, sort of
at its height in the seventies, and that you can
see its influence on Lando Calrisian. But what every analysis
of Lando, like it always ends, including this piece, ends

(01:32:58):
with that said. I love Calrisian and he's really cool,
and Billy D.

Speaker 2 (01:33:03):
Williams is awesome, and Lando Rocks, and I think that
both of these things are true that like, you know, yeah,
and what is also true is and this is part
of the you know, like smooth talker, like blaxploitation inspired
characterization of him. You might call him a smooth talker,

(01:33:25):
or you might say that he's being a creep toward
Leah because he's always being like, I mean, look what
we have here, And I think in that way he's
being a creep in the same way Hans a creep.
This is true, Like, yes, they're just both creepee guys
who found each other, like many creepy. And that said,

(01:33:45):
I do love Landell Kelrisian. So yeah, it's complicated. I
really think everyone loves I mean, I don't know. I
was not in my admittedly kind of like not deep research,
but I was not able to find any Lando calrisy
and haters. I don't which is all Billy dev I mean,

(01:34:06):
like Billy D. Williams is so awesome. Yeah for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:34:09):
So anyways, yeah, I do think that there Even though
George Lucas has resisted any racial analysis of this character,
obviously it is there. It has been discussed quite a bit.
And again there's like the classic Star Wars tokenism to
this character that also exists for Lea, where in the

(01:34:31):
entire galaxy there is one black person and one woman,
and she of course is white. And for many classic films,
this was the way the world worked.

Speaker 2 (01:34:46):
I do appreciate with with Lando, it's like it's impossible
to I think, impossible to dislike him by the end
of the movie. And I do appreciate that we are
given context for why he's doing what he's doing. He's
not double crossing Han and Lea because that's just who
he is out of like SPIKEE or Malice. Yeah, it's

(01:35:08):
a survival based decision, does it. There are many implications
that come with that. But I did appreciate that, like
you are given a clear reason not just why he
does it, but but why he is later forgiven right
because the first chance he gets he double crosses Darth
Vader and tries to help his friends so and then

(01:35:30):
appears again in Return of the Jedi as one of
the crew. I mean well, speaking to that, speaking to
like a choice of survival, something that we didn't talk about,
I don't think on our first Star Wars like our
New Hope episode, but the fact that this is like, now,
if I was there, I no idea. Yeah. I also

(01:35:52):
think that might have been one of the episodes where
you kind of didn't watch the movie. Yeah, I didn't
think podcasting was going to be a job. I just
thought we were so we were chilling, having fun. Yeah,
But the anti imperial nature of this whole franchise, I
think it's best handled in and or it's very very simplified.

(01:36:15):
I think in the original trilogy, where it's just sort
of like Empire, bad Rebel, Alliance, good guys. Well, and
it's like the first trilogy is really clearly pulling on
World War two stuff. I mean it's like that, sure,
you know in a way that I feel like, I
don't know. I'm not trying to hand it to George
Lucas with the subtlety of his storytelling, but some of

(01:36:37):
like the visuals are so overt that it feels like
you don't that they're like sort of electing you to
fill in the blanks on your own based on your
knowledge of what would have then been like pretty recent history.
But oh yeah, yeah, if you look at like side
by side footage from this original trilogy and footage from
Nazi World War two. Yeah, battles like the parallels are visible.

(01:37:00):
But this is why I like and Or so much
because it examines in a far more nuanced way what
a fascist empire looks like and what it does, what
a revolution against that looks like, how a resistance movement ignites,
and the complicated figures who are participating in it along
the way. Yeah, so everyone should watch and Or. But

(01:37:24):
but then it's like to do that, watch it illegally
because Disney Plus is well that that's the thing is now,
like you have to make well, you don't have to. Also,
you don't have to you don't have to make anti
fascist content for the fascist but like you know, there
are there are many, uh like for for a certain budget,
people are forced to put themselves or to forced to
choose to be in that position. Yeah, it's a whole

(01:37:46):
thing anyways, and Or's good. And the last thing I
wanted to touch on was just a little bit about
the Jedi. Are we talking religion because like iology, Okay,
and we talked a bit about this in our Prequels
episode as well, but I wanted to talk a little

(01:38:09):
bit more about the kind of like philosophy and ideology
of the Jedi. There is a video essay from Pop
Culture Detective Agency which we might have cited this specific
essay before, but it's about how even though the Jedi
in these movies are portrayed as these like wise heroic

(01:38:31):
protectors of the galaxy, they actually represent a rather toxic
version of masculinity because a huge part of their ethos
is suppressing your feelings emotional vulnerability equals weakness, and because
most Jedi Knights are men, especially in the first two trilogies,

(01:38:54):
we can see the parallels between Jedi ideology and patriarchal
conditioning in our galaxy, in our world. Yeah, it gets
more into the Jedi lore, I guess in the prequel
trilogy because the reason Anakin is seduced by the Dark

(01:39:16):
Side is because he makes the mistake of having feelings
and of having deep connections with women, both his mother
and his beloved Padme right, and that's what inevitably leads
him to the dark Side, which you could read as
commentary on like, look what horrible things happen when men

(01:39:38):
are discouraged from freely feeling their emotions, But the prequels
do not frame it that way.

Speaker 3 (01:39:45):
Really, No, the prequels the prequels kind of, I think
if we're operating in and I think that that is
actually a good reason people don't like because there's some
reasons people don't like the Prequels that are annoying and
some that are valid, which is that like this whole
spiritual encouragement to connect with one's emotions, to have a
clear perspective of the world, and to meditate and all

(01:40:09):
these things that are demonstrably good is retconned to be
this like weirdo. It's just like over explaining and kind
of undercuts what makes it so interesting in the first
place and what makes it possible for viewers to kind
of take on for themselves in a positive way.

Speaker 2 (01:40:29):
Right Because going back to the specific movie we're discussing today,
I think that one of the things that distinguishes Luke
Skywalker from his father Anakin slash Darth Vader is that
Luke kind of rejects this part of Jedi ideology. And
we see this in a scene where Luke sees that

(01:40:52):
like future vision of Han and Leah being in danger,
possibly about to die, and he wants to go save them.
Yoda and Obi Wan's Ghost, which are his Jedi trainers,
are like, no, who cares about your friends? You have
to stay here and finish your Jedi training, and Luke

(01:41:13):
is like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not
going to sacrifice my loved ones, which, to be fair,
I guess knowing the events of the prequels helps that
moment hit a little harder, where you realize that like
Yoda and Obi Wan are kind of like beating the
same drum until Luke proves them otherwise. Sure, yeah, I guess,

(01:41:36):
but it's it's all over the place. It's all over
the place.

Speaker 3 (01:41:40):
I do like that, and that like multiple things end
up being true, where like Luke does is right to
go and rescue his friends. And also it was a trap,
like they weren't totally wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:41:52):
They were wrong. But Luke is like, well, since I
know it's a trap, I can maybe work around that.
Leah still has to tell him it's true. But isn't
that isn't not the way? I mean, She's always the
most discerning character in the room. She's always the voice

(01:42:15):
of reason she is, and the franchise eventually recognizes that.
It just takes it takes a while. Yeah, but I
guess what I'm saying is. One of the things I
like about this movie is that at least Luke is
permitted to be more emotionally vulnerable. He's more expressive with

(01:42:38):
his emotions, certainly than Han solo is. He cares deeply
about his friends, and he's not afraid to show it.
I love you need more men like that. I love
Luke so much. I feel like we really often not
that Luke Skyworker is an overlooked character. Obviously he isn't,

(01:42:59):
but that in favor of Han in terms of like
what makes a character interesting and attractive, I do think
he is kind of overlooked. Sometimes no totally.

Speaker 3 (01:43:08):
Because his qualities are objectively I guess and whatever. I'm
speaking for myself here, but like more attractive than what
Han is doing. But the movie is very didactic in
telling you who deserves romantic attention and what behaviors should
be quote unquote rewarded. And that's a whole other thing

(01:43:29):
with romantic attention and what shouldn't be And like Luke,
while we clearly we love Luke, he is you know,
he is our protagonist. He is notably the recipient of
less romantic attention than Han.

Speaker 2 (01:43:43):
Yeah, Leiah only kisses him to make Han jealous, and then.

Speaker 3 (01:43:46):
They make that weird and gross in retrospect and like
their sister and brother. Actually, and I'm not saying that
like Luke should have a romantic interest, Like, That's not
what I'm saying at all. I just think it's pointed
who you know has the because in this world and
in this time and still often now, the romantic interest

(01:44:09):
of a CIS woman is treated as a plot reward,
and Hana is clearly the recipient of that plot reward
in this franchise.

Speaker 2 (01:44:20):
Totally. Yeah, I have come all the way around on this.
Where as a kid, as a teenager, into my twenties,
maybe even into my early thirties, I was like Luke
Skywalker whiny and annoying, Hans Solo cool and hot and rugged,

(01:44:41):
And now I'm like Han Solo a dick who needs
to go to therapy, Luke Skywalker soft, gentle kind, sweetie
and sweet. And again, I look, if you're someone in
the business of dating straight men, you'll encounter your fair

(01:45:04):
share like no, no shade. If you're still like I like,
unfortunately Hannegging is hot to me, Like you, you live
in the society and it's your right. I'm just saying
that Luke is mister Sweety and and I recognize that.
And also it seems like Mark Hamill was mister Sweety,

(01:45:24):
and it is possibly mister Sweety to this day. Do
you remember when we went to that event at a
now defunct comedy space, UCB Sunset and he was there?
No where were we. It was something that Liz Winsteed
was doing. Oh, it was a comedy show. I think
it was a fundraiser that was promoting access to abortion.

(01:45:48):
I do remember going to that. I don't remember that
Mark Hamill was there. Mark Hamill was there, I think,
like doing random illustrations or something. He's like, I mean,
from what I know, and I'm not a Mark, but
it seems like, you know, I'm sure they're a little
lib but like it seems like he's he's like a
genuinely like sweet and thoughtful person. I think so. And no,

(01:46:12):
he was, he was there. I'm wondering if I can
like dig up pictures from this event, but yeah, he
was there, and I was like freaking out. I was like,
oh my god, that's Luke Skywalker. This is incredible. And
you were sitting next to me being like I feel nothing.
I guess that's why I don't remember, because I felt nothing.
It was just another day for me. Yeah, yeah, fair,

(01:46:33):
but but no, Yeah, he's mister sweetie. He seems like
a sweetie. And yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:46:39):
I mean, I think that's everything I had for this.
I mean, it's tricky because when you're talking about one
Star Wars movie, you're kind of talking about all of them.
So I'm sure that there's things we missed. Listeners. If
there is anything in particular that you feel we should
have discussed and didn't, please let us know. But yeah,
I mean, there's so much to love about this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:47:02):
I understand why it's a lot of people's favorites. I
will point out that this is the and I'm not
totally sure why this is, but this is the only
Star Wars movie of the original trilogy that was not,
I believe, edited by a woman, Marsha Griffin, who would
have been Marshall Lucas at the time, who I remember

(01:47:22):
because of her iconic quote about how she, long after
her divorce, saw Star Wars Episode one and went to
her car and cried after and was like, what happened
to my ex husband? What a flop? Why did he
make such a bad movie, but she did. She did
edit episode four and six, so I'm not sure why
she didn't edit this one, but she needed a break maybe,

(01:47:44):
I mean, we just we haven't talked about the original
trilogy in so long that I just wanted to shout
her out. She also, I mean, she was like very
much in this group where she also edited American Graffiti
and but a bunch of Scorsese movies, Taxi Driver, New York,
New York. Alice doesn't live here anymore, Like she's a legend,
a legend anything else you want to talk about. No,

(01:48:08):
I can't wait to see Babu Frick. Oh my gosh,
we're gonna see And look, I'm not above thinking Grogu
is cute.

Speaker 3 (01:48:16):
I look, there's sometimes I look at my cat Casper,
and I'm like, hmmmm, Grogu vibes, and I see it.

Speaker 2 (01:48:23):
Look, we're uh. Sometimes you just have to remember we're
living at difficult times and you have to be cringe
every once in a while, and it's a sign of
you know, uh whatever, it's a sign of happy birthday. Caitlin,
does this say past the absolutely not. No, I didn't close.
There's not another woman there is I did see with

(01:48:46):
mine own eyes. Oh no, not us starting to do
the like I saw a woman. You're talking about it,
like how they talk about like the munchkins that are
allegedly dead in the background of Wizard of Ows. That's
how you're you're like, oh, wait, we actually correct it.
We actually updated it to four K. And it was
a tree. It wasn't anything. It wasn't a woman at all.

(01:49:09):
Even so U huh, there's a woman. She's on hof okay,
at the rebel base. She I think is in front
of a computer. She maybe has a headset on that's
so valid. So she's doing something that's so valid, but
Leah doesn't talk to her. In twenty seventeen, they would
have made a four part mini series about her. But

(01:49:30):
now there's no more TV and misogyny's back, and they
probably wouldn't anyway. So yeah, that's a note on the
Bechdel test. But what about our nipple scale, where we
rate the movie on a scale of zero to five
nipples examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens hm hmm. Indeed, well, again,

(01:49:53):
we've talked about how Lea is an iconic and admirable
ca character. She is not immune to gendered tropes of
the time, but she also defies a lot of gendered
tropes of the time in that she's allowed to actually

(01:50:13):
participate in the story and the action. And that's that's
not insignificant. The bar is in hell, but that there
is that. But I do love Leah and I love
Krrie Fisher. I don't know. I guess maybe like a
nipple and a half. Yeah, maybe two. I was gonna

(01:50:34):
give it too. Based on the existence and delayed celebration
of Lee Bracket fair where while Star Wars is very flawed,
I think you're hard pressed to find many movies of
its era where there are women in roles that prominent,
including in the editing booth, et cetera. Again, it's peanuts,

(01:50:56):
but it was rare at the time. And I'll I'll
say two nipples for that. Same one goes to Carrie Fisher,
one goes to Lee Bracket. I'm gonna do the exact
same secret. Third nipple goes to Babu Frick Baboo Frick. Guys,
we're gonna, we're gonna all start cheering at the theater

(01:51:17):
when he comes out, right right, I will, We're gonna
get him that side thing that they were supposed to do.
Do you remember how the voice of Babou Frick said
that she wanted there to be a serious about him,
about his romantic exploits of the past. I did not

(01:51:37):
know that, but but I need it. I really, I
really carry a torch for that, for that anecdote where
she was like, if she's like, there's a story here this,
this little guy has lived, Babu Frick Fricks, it's right there.

Speaker 3 (01:51:52):
It's right there, and we're available for work when the
series gets greenlit. Keivin Happy birthday, Thank you so much,
thank you for bringing one of the best Star Wars
movies ever.

Speaker 2 (01:52:07):
Happy to do it, and I don't know if I
will commit to covering Return of the Jedi next year
for my birthday, but it's a strong possibility, but love it.
Thank you for covering this with me today.

Speaker 3 (01:52:24):
Of course, and thank you listeners as always. Sorry, my
computer's going to die in like two minutes, so I'm
racing to the finish. You can find us as always
if you enjoyed this episode, but just the two of us,
there's hundreds more over on our Patreon aka Matreon. We're
for five dollars a month. You can access not just
two new episodes a month on a topic often of

(01:52:47):
our listener's choice, you can also get access to about
two hundred back episodes, and it is the best way
to directly support the show. And you also get access
to like tour information before we announce it to the
general public, which will become relevant later this year for
our ten year anniversary tour, and access to a really
fun community that we're very thrilled to be a part of.

(01:53:11):
So yeah, check us out there and on Instagram for updates,
and uh, that's kind of it.

Speaker 2 (01:53:19):
That's kind of it. Shall we get in our millennium
falcon and press the hyper drive button and go to
light speed whatever the hell that means. Let's do it, Okay,
Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,
hosted and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus and Me Caitlyn Durrante.

(01:53:43):
The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann and edited
by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of them? That's me and
our logo and merch and all of our artwork in
fact are designed by Jamie Loftus. Ever heard of her?
Oh My God and our Themes. Song by the way,
was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

(01:54:05):
Iconic and especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.
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