The Truman Show with Brandie Posey

Good morning! Caitlin, Jamie, and special guest Brandie Posey discuss The Truman Show (1998). And in case we don't see you, good afternoon, good evening, and good night! Here's the piece we reference, "The Real Truman Show" -- https://idapb.substack.com/p/the-real-truman-show 

Follow Brandie on IG at @brandazzle and check out her comedy special Milk Jug and Burn This Records at https://www.youtube.com/@BurnThisRecords 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdelcast, the questions ask if movies have women
and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephyn bast
start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Good morning, Jamie, and in case I don't see you,
good afternoon, good evening, and good night.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
And Caitlin. While I have you here, might I suggest
some delicious dunkin Donuts coffee to go with your podcasting.
Dunkin Donuts. It really isn't that bad.

Speaker 4 (00:34):
Who are you talking to, Jamie?

Speaker 3 (00:35):
It's just me here? What what?

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Wow? Incredible intro Wow?

Speaker 3 (00:40):
I think honestly, you know what? That was the usually
just one of us wakes up today today we're both here, Ernie,
all right, Welcome to the Bexel Cast, the podcast where
we take a look at your favorite movies using an
intersectional feminist lens, as well as the Bechdel Test for
jumping off point for discussion. My name, Jamie Loftis.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
My name is Caitlin Dorante. The Bechdel Test, of course,
being a media metric created by our dear friend, Alison Bechdel,
friend of the show, best friend in real life, of course,
first appearing in her comic collection Dicks to Watch Out For,
has since been kind of mainstreamified into a media metric.
There are many different versions. The one that we use
is do two characters of a marginalized gender have names?

(01:24):
Do they speak to each other? And is their conversation
about something other than a man? And ideally it's like
a narratively impactful conversation and not just throw away dialogue.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah, but what if you live in a simulation? Oh,
this is boo, which brings us to today's movie. Another
one in our as we approach our ten uere anniversary,
a movie that you would think we would have covered
by now, but it just never the piece has never
quite came together until now exactly. And today we are

(01:57):
talking about nineteen ninety eights, The Truman Show, Ye, not
the True Woman Show.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
The True Man Show.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, and fucked up. It kind of makes you think,
and we'll get we'll get into it. We have an
incredible returning guest. Let's get her in here.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
We sure do. She's a comedian. She's got a new
comedy special out called Milk Job on burn This Records,
which you can watch on YouTube and which you should
watch and you remember her from our episode on five
Hundred Days of Summer.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
It's Brandy Posey. Welcome back.

Speaker 4 (02:35):
Hello, Hello, thank you for having me. This is one
of my favorite movies of all time. So I rememberly
when I saw you guys hadn't done it yet. I
was like, ooh ooh ooh, please please please.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
And here you are.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yay.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
I'm so glad this is This has been a show
that a movie we've almost covered several times and just
for some reason, it just hasn't happened. So I'm so
glad that you're here.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, what is your what is your history with the
True Man Show?

Speaker 4 (03:02):
Okay, So I am a and I am now an adult.
So this has waned a little bit obviously because of
things over time. But I am a massive Jim Carrey
fan from way back. A's Venture Too was a religious
awakening for me and comedy in the theaters as a child.
I have not missed the opening day of a Jim
Carrey movie since af Sventurre.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
Two, even number twenty three.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
Yes, I saw that at the Grove on opening day
with about five other people, and that includes mister Popper's Penguin.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
You're a real hell, every single Sonic.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
Every single Sonic. I was on vacation for Sonic two
and I said, sorry, I'm gonna need about three hours
to go see Sonic two because the tradition lives on.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
That's reallyful.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, it's just a fun thing I've always done because
it's like I was really just really drawn. I love
I love I love him. His nineties run is like
pretty unfuck with heable, you know what I mean. It's
you can't touch it. And if you were like a
drawn to comedy but also kind of shy person, I
think that his just like larger than life persona was

(04:08):
this like you can be that. Like, yeah, I'd consider
him like one of my biggest It's funny because my
stand up is nothing like him, but he's like one
of my biggest comedy influences of all time. And I
the one person I think that him and Patrick Stewart,
I think if I met them, I would cry on site.
So don't ever want to do that.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
Never meet your heroes, I mean hero But also like
he has some weird stuff in his personal life as a.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
Human, so as we all do. Yeah, so you know
that's separate. But young Brandy, he meant the world to
me basically, yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
Wow, yeah, so you saw this. This came out after
a spener or two. So you saw this in theaters?

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:49):
June fourth, nineteen ninety eight was also the last day
that my friend Lindsay lived in Maryland because she was
like a navy brat and then she was moving. And
the very last thing we did before she moved to Colorado,
oh was go see and Truman shaw An opening day. Wow.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Oh that's what a nice memory.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, Jamie, what about you? What's your relationship with this movie?

Speaker 3 (05:10):
I somehow had never seen this movie, in spite of
the fact that it's definitely like on description, like this
is a movie I would love, and it is a
movie I love. Spoiler alert. I really wish I had
seen this when I was in high school. Would blow
my mind, because it blew my mind and I'm in
my thirties. So we've talked about this recently on the

(05:31):
show and kind of anytime Jim Carrey growth I was
not allowed to watch Jim Carrey movies for the most
part when I was growing up because my mom found
him annoying. So Jim Carrey and Adam Sandler movies, I
still like, have not really seen most of their nineties
classics because my mom found them annoying and unfortunately it's
a hereditary trait. So I've seen more. I think I've

(05:56):
seen more serious Jim Carrey movies than for some reason, Grinch.
We made an exception for Grinch. I don't know why
we showed up for Grinch hard. We still do, sure,
But yeah, I don't have a strong attachment to him
his his nineties work. But I did see Eternal Sunshine
in middle school and you know, was pissing shitting for

(06:19):
the next twenty years about it. Yeah, I mean he's
he is. Yes, has a lot of controversy that we
probably don't have the bandwidth to get into today, but
incredibly versatile actor and this I feel like this was
maybe his first step into more serious stuff and like
where he started to show that he had range. And yeah,

(06:41):
I definitely didn't know that Peter Weir had directed this,
and like he has a kind of ridiculous track record
of helping comedic actors make a dramatic turn because he
did Robin Williams Dead Poets. I just I really, I mean,
this movie is incredible. I feel like it does something
I'm trying to think of a similar movie to this,
and that it's like, this is an idea everybody has had,

(07:03):
or at least an intrusive thought everyone's had, and it's
executed perfectly, and like, how many times has that happen?
It's pretty incredible and I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah. Also,
Laura Lennie is so good in this. If only if
only she been allowed to have a conclusion to her arc.

(07:24):
We'll get there, We'll get there. Yeah. But I yeah,
this movie is amazing. First time, Kitly, what about you?

Speaker 2 (07:30):
I would count this among my favorite movies. I saw
it around the time that it came out, I don't
think in theaters, but probably within a couple of years
of it being out. I eventually bought it on DVD,
which I still own, thank you very much. I've seen it,
you know a few dozen times. I would say I

(07:51):
love a movie where characters are in a like things
aren't what they seem kind of world and that they
have to like figure out the truth of what's going
on around them.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
So very late nineties, because it's like we get the
Matrix the next year. There's a lot of simulation. Culture
is so hot.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Right now and then this movie. I would also pair
it with Pleasantville as like if you wanted to do
like a double feature. I feel like these two movies
pair together really well. But then you've got your other
like things aren't what they see movies such as like
Vanilla Sky, they live total recall Stepford Wives. You know,

(08:30):
the list goes on, but I love that as a
narrative thrust, if you will. So I've always loved this movie.
I hadn't seen it in quite a few years before
rewatching it for prepping for this episode. But yeah, it
was a joy. I was worried, like, oh no, what
if it doesn't hold up as well or you know,

(08:52):
But honestly, I don't have that many complaints.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
I think it gets more prescient with age. Honestly, I
know it's really shaped a lot of my view of
the world and how to like question things and kind
of just like be looking for it really like is
like a really seminal movie in the DNA of a young.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah, well, it's like there's been so much written about
how this movie came out before Survivor and like before
most contemporary reality TV and like surveillance culture of self
surveillance culture. It's just like it's it's like ahead of
its time by only a couple of years, which is
pretty wild.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
But it had such an impact on me that to
this day I would say, at least once a month,
I'm like, oh god, I'm probably in the Truman Show.
I better not jerk off in case anyone's watching. So
it really really affected me.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
Luckily, Truman only does funny bits in the bathroom.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
He never jacks out, he's ever taking an explosive shit.
This deeply lonely thirty five year old man does not
jack off, eva, absolutely not.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
No, he just makes weird collages.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
So why don't we take a quick break and then
we'll come back for the recap and we're back.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Oh, Ed Harris in a in a beret.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
I didn't know well, I didn't know any to go
out this except the premise. But he replaced what's his name,
mister Scarry Dennis Hopper. Yeah, Dennis Hopper shot for one
day on The Truman Show and they were like, get
him out of here. And Ed Harris had like twenty
seconds to prepare for this role, and just like Abs

(10:48):
Destroys knocked it out. Of the part. I'm pretty sure
he got nominated for an Oscar for this. I think
he did. Yeah, yeah, after twenty seconds of preper he's
he's amazing, man.

Speaker 4 (11:00):
Yeah, I mean the Christoph character. I mean we can
get into later obviously, but the Christoph character is like, so,
how many of those people have we encountered that are.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Just like Holl'm making art by exploiting others?

Speaker 3 (11:15):
Also that true? Okay, and then I promise we could
start talking. But that Truman's House is owned by Matt
Gates's family. That's another disturbing fact I learned, Oh I
have We just have to live with that for some reason.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, I have a whole tangent about master planned communities
that all.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Get into Oh yeah, when you know about master planned communities.
Of course, that's the way that Matt Gates grew up.
And also his last name is literally Gates. But just
Truman's House is where Pat Gates grew up. We hate
to say it, but it's true.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, yes, anyway, here's the recap of the Truman Show.
We open on the Ed Harris character Christoph. He is
talking about Truman Burbank, who is the star of the
Truman Show. A television program in which Truman's entire life

(12:11):
is recorded and broadcast twenty four to seven. Except Truman
has no idea about this. He doesn't know that he
is the subject of this show. He doesn't know that
he's being filmed by hidden cameras all over his community.
He doesn't know that everyone around him is an actor,
including his best friend and his wife.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
He doesn't know that the.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Town that he lives in, Sea Haven is a set,
and that his whole life is a lie, fabricated for
the sake of this show, which Christophe is the like
creator slash executive producer of.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
It's a really quick one off line that could be
its own movie entirely. But I was like, what, Like
Grant and I both stopped and were like, what the fuck?
That hope is imprescient of something that is going to happen,
but where they're like, Truman Burbank is the first baby
to be adopted by a corporation, and the way that
they say the first, as if to imply although, of

(13:12):
course now that is completely normal, like it's so oh.
I was like, oh, so so scary is such a
good detail?

Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yes, indeed, so this is going on with the Truman
Show for nearly thirty years, ever since Truman was born.
So then we meet Truman Burbank played by Jim Carrey.
He's a very cheery guy, but he also seems to
be longing for something or someone. He's searching for a woman.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
Much more than this professional life.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yes, yes, he's searching for a woman named either Lauren
or maybe Sylvia. We'll find out more about that. He
feels very restless where he is. He yearns to leave
and go somewhere like Fiji, but he is intensely afraid
of boats and crossing bodies of water, so he feels

(14:06):
stuck on this small island where Sea Haven is. At
some point we get a flashback from when Truman was
a child where he and his dad went out on
a boat during a storm and his father fell overboard
and drowned. And that's why Truman is so petrified of water.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
And when you know this is fake, because you find
out in the framing device at the beginning that everything
is fake. Yeah, I feel that sequence of Truman's dad
drowning reminds me so much of the Arrested development cutaways,
so like and.

Speaker 4 (14:34):
That's why you always leave.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
A note so goofy looking.

Speaker 4 (14:41):
Duh.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
And that's why you never go out on a boat
in a storm.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
Right, a tiny dinghy with your child in the middle
of a storm. Oh man.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
And that scene is wild because then it's also the
dad floats away and then a guy in a scuba
suit comes up and just gives them like a little oxygen,
and he's that he had to just betray his adopted son.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
It's so dark.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
The Yeah, I interpreted it that he was mad that
his character got killed off and he's out of work.

Speaker 4 (15:11):
Yeah, well probably not soo.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
There's there's a lot of like interesting stuff with the
like how do the actors feel about that? I don't know.
I would watch a whole separate movie about the actors.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
And we meet some of these actors, such as the
person who plays his wife Meryl. Although that's her character's name,
I forget what like. He name's Hannah Hannah McGill, I
think played by Laura Lenny. So it's an actor playing
an actor playing a character.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
And she's so good in this that I did not
like Laura Lenni for probably fifteen years because of how
much I hated the character of Meryl. She disturbed me
to my core in this movie.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
She's spooky.

Speaker 4 (15:54):
Yeah, like that you could make that you could live
a life, a complete fake life with somebody that you
said you love like that, Like really, as a eighth
grade Brandy really was like, I can't that's a possibility.
It can't even allow to be real.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
It's so scary. Yeah, yeah, she's she's incredible. There's a
lot of we can talk about it in a bit,
but there was like some I when I was doing
some research, like the actors were given a lot of
freedom to write their own backstories, and Laura Lenny came
up with the like some really scary shit an that
like you wouldn't know because I think she's not in

(16:30):
the movie enough, but like she really cooked.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, I need to read more about that.

Speaker 4 (16:36):
Yeah, that's really cool.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
So we meet Meryl. We also meet the actor who
plays Truman's best friend and then his character, Marlin, played
by Noah Emmerick, and the two of them, Meryll and
Marlin are always plugging products like kitchen utensils or ice
cold Bruce Ki's because they have to advertise things within

(17:03):
the show. And this happens at Truman and he's always
like okay, and then Truman starts to notice other strange things,
such as what appears to be a large movie set
light falls from the sky right next to him. It
starts pouring rain on him, but only a tiny little section.

(17:26):
At first, he sees an unhoused man who he thinks
is his father on the street, but then this man
is promptly grabbed away and put onto a bus, And
so Truman talks to his mom played by Holland Taylor.
Again his fake mom love her about all of this,
and she brushes it off because her role, his wife's role,

(17:49):
his best friend's role, is not only to advertise things
in the show, but also to gaslight Truman and maintain
this facade. Then we get more insight about the Lauren
slash Sylvia person and we flash back to when Truman
was I don't know if he's in high school or college,

(18:11):
but a woman named Lauren played by Natasha mcelhun catches
his eye, but clearly Christoph again, the guy who's the
brains behind the Truman show, cast Meryl to be Truman's
love interest, so there's this forced meet cute between Truman
and Meryl, and Lauren isn't supposed to be heavily involved

(18:35):
in Truman's life, but he keeps trying to pursue Lauren
and asks her out, and they sneak off to the beach,
where she tells him that everyone around him is pretending
everything is fake. It's a show that everyone is watching.
Her name isn't Lauren, it's actually Sylvia. And then a
man pretending to be her father shows up, excuses her

(18:57):
behavior as mental illness, and then drags her away, saying
that they're moving to Fiji, which is why Truman is
so obsessed with going to Fiji. But every time Truman
talks about traveling or wanting to travel, various characters make
excuses they continue to gaslight him. Meanwhile, more strange things

(19:20):
are happening. Truman hears a radio broadcast in his car
that seems to be narrating his every move.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
I had a I'm curious what you both think about this,
or maybe I just missed something. This does seem like
the kind of movie you have to watch like twenty
two times. I watched it twice, but I was like,
maybe this is maybe real. Heads will know. What is
the reason do you think that things get so sloppy
around this point? Because it's so many things in a row,

(19:48):
and maybe it's just like a movie that feels like
a movie. But I was like, wow, they keep this
They keep this shit up for thirty years, and then
in a couple weeks, I'm like, who got fired? Like
just it's like, this show is a mess.

Speaker 4 (20:02):
I hired a bunch of scabs.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
I think, yeah, verizing, I do like there there could
have been like a fun and it seems like there
was a lot about this. There's a lot of like
deep lore done around the Truman Show that doesn't necessarily
make it to the screen. But I'm like, I wonder
if there is a reason somewhere of like because there
could be a million external, interesting in world reasons why
all of a sudden things are getting sloppy. That could

(20:25):
be like a union thing. I don't know. I just
I was like, did I miss something? Did they explain
why all of a sudden the show is like kind
of a disaster.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
They don't explain it. But I guess my head canon
is that probably a lot of little mishaps have been
going on this entire time. It's just that now Truman
is starting paying attention sure and connecting the dots that's
my Okay.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
I guess got it.

Speaker 4 (20:48):
Yeah, I think so too.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, so yeah, Truman, here's this radio broadcast that seems
to be about him. He almost accidentally walks into what
seems like a like backstage craft survey area that is
disguised as an elevator.

Speaker 4 (21:03):
Well, and he does that because he breaks his routine.
And I think that's probably part of it too, Jamie,
because then people are so used to him just doing
the routine that when he starts breaking it, I think
that's when the fuck ups start happening more and more too,
because they're like, whoa, we don't know what to do
with this guy that now is becoming uncontainable.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
He's going off script, yeah right, And so he's like,
what the hell is going on? So he starts doing
some kind of like wacky stuff like running out into
the street and stopping traffic, basically seeing what he can
get away with, but no one seems to pay him
any mind, which is also weird. So he's like, Okay,
something's up, and he goes to Marlin to be like, Okay,

(21:44):
I think there's a conspiracy happening, but he thinks it's
about his dad, that maybe his dad is still alive.
Marlin of course gaslights him and says, oh, your cuckoo,
everything is normal. And then one day Truman follows Meryll
to work because because he suspects that she's lying about
her nurse job at the hospital, and sure enough, the

(22:08):
operation that he tries to observe seems sketchy as hell.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
It's so funny, just the idea.

Speaker 4 (22:15):
Of actors being like, just all go with it.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
I'm going to make the primary incision. So this prompts
him to try to leave for Fiji, but oh no,
there aren't any flights. So he gets onto a bus
to Chicago that quote unquote breaks down, so he's like,
fuck it, I'll just drive somewhere. So he has Merrill

(22:41):
get in his car and he starts kind of like
erradically driving around. There are all these clearly fabricated obstacles,
including fake traffic and a nuclear power plant leak.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
I was like, there was a fair amount of stop
gaps in place. There's about half a mile of error
space that was pretty.

Speaker 4 (23:03):
Unpressed, just like him running through the woods trying to
get away from the nuclear power plant to just it
really reminded me of et being just like captured.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Totally, and so he ends up nearly getting arrested and
taken back home, and he's demanding to know what's going on,
and again Merrill is gaslighting him, but she's also freaking
out and she's scared for her safety and like talks
to camera almost but then Marlin shows up. All of

(23:37):
a sudden, things kind of calm down. Truman confides in Marlin,
and we realize that it's christof feeding Marlin lines through
an earpiece from like Truman Show Control Center. Q. Yeah,
where Paul Giamatti is there. I kind of forgot he
was in this movie.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Bab Oh.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
He's like a technician of some kind who does different
things to like control different cameras and manipulate the weather
and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
It's like that baby Paul Giabody, We're fully talking about
a thirty five year old man, like, oh, baby Paul.
It's like when we talk about baby Holland Taylor, We're
like she was fifty yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yes, And then Truman's father shows up and there's like
this big dramatic reunion, but it is clearly to divert
Truman's attention away from the actual conspiracy that he's starting
to uncover, and Truman and his dad have a very
tearful reunion. And also we are periodically cutting to the

(24:45):
people at home who are watching the Truman Show.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
There's a Truman bar. There's a bar, but I found
very fun. That's like, of course that would exist.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, I love a gimmicky bar. I would absolutely go.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
To that Truman bar.

Speaker 4 (25:00):
Definitely get that merch.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:02):
I've been to more ill conceived bars than that.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Oh my gosh, I've been to it, for sure. I've
been to a Titanic themed bar. I've been to a
big Lebowski themed bar, into a Beetle Juice pop bar.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Bars.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, there's the unlicensed Star Wars bar on Hollywood.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (25:21):
There used to be an Austin Powers bar and I
went to that too.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah yeah, yeah, I love all these This is this
is our culture.

Speaker 4 (25:32):
I was thinking of watching this. I was like, when
this when this show ends, I wonder if there is
like a in this world, like a version of a
Jake Tapper that shows up to try to change the
Truman bar something else.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
Wait, rescuing the bar. Rescue guy.

Speaker 4 (25:48):
Oh okay, oh yeah yeah, sorry, quite right.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
But anyway, so we know we we see the different
audience members who are diligently watching the program that is
The Truman Show, one of whom is Lauren aka Sylvia,
who watches with bated breath. Then we get a kind
of like news report slash. Harry Shearer is interviewing Christoph

(26:15):
about the show. Christoph talks about all the ways that
he's had to manufacture ways to keep Truman on the
set that is Sea Haven Island, which is why he
killed off Truman's dad by drowning him at sea to
sort of induce this phobia of water in Truman. Christoph

(26:36):
also discloses that Truman was the result of an unwanted
pregnancy and that he was, to your comment earlier, Jamie,
the first child to be adopted by a corporation. And
then Sylvia calls in and brates Christoph for being a
liar and manipulator and making Truman this prisoner. But Christoph

(26:58):
insists that Truman could leave whenever he wants and that
the life that Christoph has given him is better than
any life Truman could have in the real world. And
then we cut back to Truman's life. He seems to
have returned to his you know, normal cheerful self despite
Meryll having left him, so that Christoph can introduce a

(27:21):
new love interest for Truman. So basically, Laura Lenny's character
is written out of the movie from that point on.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
Yeah, she's gonna go off Broadway. I do, I really
do wish that we found out what became of that character. Ye,
Laura Lenny's really quickly. This is well, I'll save a
bit of it because we have to talk about like
the consent as it is conceived in this world. But

(27:49):
Laura Lenny's head cannon for Hannah because I guess her
and Noah Emmerick, they I mean, they're important in the movie,
but they had a lot of downtime and so they
just like wrote these elaborateories. They were also living in
the homes that they, like most of the actors were
living in the homes that their characters lived in. And

(28:09):
so for Hannah, she conceived this whole backstory that like,
Hannah does the most product placement because she does backdoor
deals herself, and she's saving up money so is that
she can afford to leave the show. That's her whole
And then there's some like pretty diabolical stuff that we'll
get into when we talk about consent. But okay, anyways, yeah,

(28:30):
she had she had a whole she she thought more
about Hannah than maybe the script of the movie did.
But it's a fascinating character because it's like they what
theoretically she and Noah Emrick's character Lewis right, like Marl
Marlon Marlon Marlin, they've been on the show since they
were children. So it's like, what is that.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
You know?

Speaker 3 (28:50):
I know that they're that the movie would sort of
have you feel that they're villains, but it's like I
find them like sympathetic to some extent too, because it's
like they it's it's clear to me how much they
signed up for this, you know.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
This is all they know?

Speaker 4 (29:04):
Yeah, definitely, I mean Marlon is I mean they were
more best friends when they were seven, right, those when
they met and became best friends, And it's like, so
you're a child actor. Honestly, I has only ever known this,
like right.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I didn't even think about that.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
And he answers to ed Hiris like God as well,
like of course he does. It's all he knows. So
I don't know. I think I especially in the second watch,
I'm like I think Noah emeriic, especially because just because
he gets worse green time is doing something so like
nuance that I didn't pick up on and the first time.
But you're like, yeah, of course this is all this
guy knows, like he's doing something horrible. But also do

(29:41):
you see the picture of that little kid and you're like,
she's supposed to do Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
I know, a product of his environment. Yeah, okay, So
Truman seems back to normal, and it appears as though
he no longer suspects anything unusual is happening, just kidding.
We discover that he has staged a scene in his

(30:05):
basement to make it look like he's sleeping, but really
it's like just a lumpy blanket and like a tape recorder.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
It's a classic honk shim is seed. I'm like, I'm like, Christoph,
how did.

Speaker 4 (30:20):
You miss him recording himself snoring for hours?

Speaker 2 (30:23):
It is for thirty years, pal, come on, Yeah, the
man has no privacy. You know everything he's doing.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
But it's paulgi I guess it's Paul Giovanni's fault, that's right.
Like they're like, Paul Giamatti wasn't wasn't paying attention to
sleeping on the job or whatever.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, yeah, yes, anyway, Truman escapes through a hole that
he dug in his yard. So Christoph cuts the transmission
of the Truman Show while the principal cast and extras
look for Truman around the set, but no one can
find him. And then Christoph realizes that no one's looking
for him on the sea, which is where Truman turns

(31:01):
out to be. He's facing his fear of the water
and leaving the island on a sailboat, so Christoph orders
a violent thunderstorm to try to stop Truman, who falls overboard.
It seems like maybe he dies, but Truman lives and
his boat then crashes into a wall. It's like the

(31:24):
edge of the set that shot.

Speaker 4 (31:26):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh yeah. So he finds a door and he's about
to go through it, but then Christoph, who sounds like
the voice of God like coming from above, starts talking
to Truman and trying to convince him to stay, but
Truman's like bye. He does his famous good morning and in

(31:49):
case I don't see you, good afternoon, good evening, and
good night, and then he exits through the door, and
so Truman is free. The audience watching at home is
thrilled for him, Sylvia runs out to presumably reunite with him,
and Christoph is like, oh fuck.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Oh but and I love the last line. It's so good,
like the what else is on? It's so good, so good.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
It reminds me of a lot of Are we all
seen Cable Guy?

Speaker 3 (32:24):
No, actually, that's one of the ones that I've seen.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
I mean, it's great, it's it's it's it's kind of like.
I think they're honestly a very good pairing together because
the Cable Guy also is about media consumption and is
incredibly critical of it. And the ending of that is
a little bit more hopeful actually, because they end up
cutting the power and then they don't have that moment,
which is nice but not to ruin cable that and

(32:50):
it doesn't at all. But I think that they're really
great companion pieces to me.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
I mean the two Jim Carrey movies of this era
that I genuinely think I would like it, but haven't
seen our Cable Guy and liar liar, based on the descriptions,
they seem interesting.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, liar liar, I think I've said this before in
the show, but that was a big one of my childhood.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
Yes, Liar Liar was huge for me.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, ye love it anyway, So that's the movie. Let's
take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
And we're back. We're back. Yeah, where to start, Brandy,
what's jumping out to you?

Speaker 4 (33:37):
I mean, they're are just I rewatching it. I was like,
I'm gonna actually write down some quotes that really are
jumping out of me for the and looking at it
through a twenty twenty six lens, that it had been
a few years since I'd really watched it, and thinking
about our relationship with entertainment now and the Jamie said,
self surveillance, but also like the way that we have
all made ourselves these little like content king pins in

(34:00):
a certain way. Like Lord Lenning early in the movie
says that when they're interviewing the top says, there's no
difference between a private life or a public life to me,
and she's like proud of like this is just I
make my art, is my content all day long, twenty
four to seven and it and she calls it a
blessed life. Yeah, and I struggle with like the how

(34:20):
much of myself to put online all day long, all
the time. So just like I think that that's also
a part of her character that unnerves me to a degree,
you know, that the the leaning into it at all.
I remember there was like a moment during COVID very
early on where I got onto Instagram and there were
like thirty lives across the top of my stories, and

(34:43):
I was like, oh, so many people are just live
broadcasting anything right now. And I remember being like I
want nothing to do with that whatsoever. And I think
that this movie makes me think about.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
That a lot. Totally. Yeah, absolutely. I thought the other
line from that beginning that I got to me is
Marlin's line of like it's all real, it's just controlled,
and like how that feels like connected to that same
conversation of like, yeah, since the Truman Show has come out,
like shortly after the Truman Show comes out, you have

(35:16):
the big wave of American reality television, which is all
tied in with union issues not wanting to pay writers,
and so it's like what's cheap exploited if TV we
can make And unfortunately it did create some some real hitters,
and like I can't argue with Survivor. Conceptually it's a
great idea, yeah, but quite evil, But like so the

(35:39):
the like the Ed Harris type producers, they still exist
in like the Andy Cohen's of the world, but now
it's like we've sort of cut out the Ed Harris middleman.
Like we do that for ourselves now, right, and like
we delude ourselves into being a main character and our
condition to feel frustrated when we when that's unsuccessful or

(36:01):
like I don't know, Yeah, it's this movie is like
endlessly relevant in a way that like it's not the
movie's fault, but it sucks. It sucks to be like true,
like it forecasts so much and also it just like
gets worse a worth.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Right, I mean, because there's so many conversations that we
could start to have from this movie. There's the obvious
conversation about how quote unquote Reality TV is not actually reality.
All these things are, all the dramas manufactured, all the
situations are manufactured. There's a conversation about how about product

(36:38):
placement and about how so much media is just there
to sell products or fill the space between commercials or whatever.

Speaker 4 (36:51):
Well, and I think there's also like a a yearning
in society to see something real too, and you have
to be where does that come from? On us as people.
It's wanting to escape to see something real because we
feel so beat down by our everyday lives. Like what
is actual authenticity?

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (37:09):
And people are so so hungry for it, and you
know they Kristav's character says at the end, you were real.
It's what made you so good to watch. And it's
just people just are like we I want to see authenticity.
I don't think I can live it myself, or I
don't I'm not on that level, but I'm urting for something.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
Yeah. I even the idea of like the I've a
product placement existed before The Truman Show. But like so
much of what like they're all, Christoph is also selling
something larger, Like he's selling this regressive view of America
that didn't exist in like he lives in actual nineteen
ninety eight. They live in like nineteen fifty five, and

(37:50):
not even real nineteen fifty five, like television nineteen fifty five.
So he's also like selling all of that. He's selling
an idea of like this American lifestyle. On the second viewing,
I was like, oh yeah, this movie also was far ahead,
even though it's like the phrasing wasn't there, But like
the whole world has this parasocial relationship with Truman that

(38:12):
he has. I mean it's like obviously extreme because he
is not even aware that it exists. But that like
speaking to Yeah, what you were just saying Brandy about
like there is this like desire to see yourself where
I do believe that even though like whatever people at
the Truman Bar, like we would go to the Truman Bar,
even though by doing that you're participating in something pretty dark, right,

(38:36):
But I do believe that that normal people are rooting
for him and care about him, even though in doing so, there.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
They're complicitly participating sinister. Right, everyone who is watching the
show is complicit to some degree in the exploitation of Truman.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
And then you've.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Got some people and I'm thinking of the bathtub guy specifically,
just like does he ever leave his bath hub? But
like it seems like a lot of these audience members
are kind of like living vicariously through Truman. And yeah,
there's like the conversation around like celebrity worship, but Truman
doesn't even know he's a celebrity. Because there's this whole

(39:18):
issue with lack of informed consent. And that's another conversation
and just all of these all these things.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
It's it's wild how much this movie like bites off
without ever feeling like super didactic or boring. It's kind
of a miracle that it's like really funny and fun
to watch. And yeah, I guess like that does sort
of just tumble right into the consent conversation where obviously
Truman never consents to any of this. He's you know,

(39:51):
living in a simulation. And I think it's probably for
the best that the movie doesn't get too into certain
issues of consent, because it gets that gets very scary.
I mean in Laura Linny's backstory, and this is again
I'm like, yeah, I'm glad they didn't include this, but
that they I mean that she was like, well, of

(40:14):
course these two characters have sex, and she gets a
raise every time he has sex with her, and like
she created this really fucked up backstory for how her
I mean her actor knowingly operates, and that she has
a marriage outside of this, and that she's to some extent,

(40:35):
I mean, assaulting Truman and some extent is being trafficked.

Speaker 5 (40:39):
Like yeah, if you think about it too hard, it
gets so scary.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Everyone's being exploited.

Speaker 4 (40:44):
Yeah, well, and they're trying for a baby too, right,
like Christoph wants the first own air conception number one
and like, which is just what a horrific phrase. And
then it's also like, so, now you've done the trauma
to a new baby that you're probably also going to
raise and it will never know. And then are you
actually it's you are it's mother biologically? Do you consider

(41:07):
that your child.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
I know? Or is that just your character's child? Like
it's all such a mind fuck.

Speaker 3 (41:14):
There was another Yeah that the thing I'm pulling from
here with the actors making up their characters who are
also actors backstory was a I found it's like basically
lost media, but someone ripped it from it aired on
nicked Night. It was called like true TV, and it
was just like BTS but in character BTS that aired
on nick at Night once. But you get a lot

(41:36):
of insight into how the actors were thinking at the time,
and like doing all these thought experiments where Holland Taylor
does this interview in character where she's like, yeah, we're
like the most famous actors on TV, but we're also
prisoners here and so I have forty million dollars and
I own all these properties. I've never been there, but
I hear it's amazing and like and like, to the

(41:58):
degree they've consented to be there seems to be different.
You would think that Hall and Taylor was old enough
to consent to be there, but yeah, Noah Emerick was
sort of put there.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah as a kid.

Speaker 3 (42:10):
Yeah, I don't know. It's it's all. It's also interesting.

Speaker 4 (42:14):
Well and y'all you had to wonder, like how it's
pitched them too write It's like his mom was probably
what like she was probably in her mid to late thirties,
Like when, well, this role of a lifetime because they
never really knew exactly what this was going to be
at a certain point anyway, right, they kept expanding.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
Yeah, and if it wasn't a hit, Yeah, what if
it wasn't And so.

Speaker 4 (42:35):
There's probably some insane contract that she had no one,
it's an actress, she doesn't know what she necessarily signed
away completely at that point, and she's an aging actress
in Hollywood. It was like, oh, this role of a lifetime,
Why wouldn't you know? It's just the the levels of
people just trying to work within a system, just really
I Also I'd never actually noticed it until this time

(42:57):
because I had not watched it in a long time.
But they show the shot of the dome itself. It's
over the entire city of Burbank into like North Hollywood
because it's like right behind the Hollywood side, And I
was like the idea that they just like bought everybody
out of that part of the valley and just flooded it.
It really was making me think of like the Dodger

(43:17):
Stadium of it all. Really sure, you know, just like
this the displacement of so many families for the creation
of this like real life.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Which I kept thinking on this watch. I'm like, what
is the budget for this show? And how could it
possibly be sustainable? Because there's a whole ecosystem that you
have to pay for. There's all these actors, you know,
principal cast and extras who presumably live there full time
that you have to like pay for their labor, like,

(43:50):
and I know this is not the biggest issue with
this show, but I'm just like, how is this show
actually sustainable? But Christoph insists that it is, so I'm
just like, all right, who knows.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
Well, and if you're scaling with the kid right. It's
like when you're young, your world is very small, you know,
and you're kind of just taken around. So it's like
it can it maybe didn't start that way over overnight,
but they kind of have built it as as he
kind of grew over time too, right.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
Yeah, Well, and then there's like Christoph himself, who I get.
I like. I like that he's kept vague enough that
you can sort of guess your way around, like how
does this man come to play god? And like that
I forget how much of this is included? And how
much of it Isn't this weird Niked Knight thing I watched,
but that like Christoph had built his career on exploiting people,

(44:43):
and that like he had won an Oscar for a
documentary on unhoused people that involves surveilling them against their will,
and like from that came this idea to like, to
what if I could do a completely controlled surveillance experiment
and broadcast and call it art and elect myself the
god of this person's life. I just I don't know.

(45:05):
I think like Ed Harris makes so many interesting choices
where it is like on paper, so nuts that he
tries to kill Truman and he's like, kill jiamati kill
it him, kill him now, and then twenty seconds later
he's like, Laurret, I guess you lived. I guess I
have to give him this god speech. But you can

(45:26):
feel that it like really does meet. Like he's just
so deep. He's in his freaky simulation. And you see
that in the scene where he's like touching Truman's huge face.
We were like this, this man is very very sick. Yeah,
I don't know with what, but it's so I don't know.
It's I fully believed that he would kill Truman, and
I fully believe that he was devastated that Truman was

(45:48):
like electing out of this horrible thing.

Speaker 4 (45:52):
Well one thing, that's what it's like. An abuser gets
high on their own supply a lot of the time too,
where it's like I I did try to kill you,
but now I've let you live, Like how benevolent I am.
Like it's such a retaining of extreme power in that
circumstance because it's like you can always leave whenever he wants,
Like it's but you know that's not it. You've created

(46:13):
things than his mind that make that impossible, right, but
for long until it's not.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
I mean it's also yeah, it's like I'm sure someone's
written this essay of like how freaky and biblical. That
final sequence is where he's like, I have to kill
my son to prove a point to everyone. And it's
like a version of the Bible where Jesus gets off
the cross and is like, I'm out of here if

(46:40):
I don't see you, good evening, A good night. Yeah,
and then.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
I also forgot that Christoph is answering to like network
executives to who are like, you got to pull the plug,
we can't have some and die on national television, and
like Christophe tries to justify it, but I forgot that
that was a component of it.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
Yeah, like he is, he's playing God, but he actually
doesn't have the final word, which feels like he.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Still answers to a higher God.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
Yeah, there's so many like levels of complicity that you
see play out. Okay, and then this is where we
get to like where I have some. Like it's an
incredible movie. I do wish that we saw more anyone
other than white guys struggling with these degrees of complicity.
I think that like, yeah, we see it with Hannah,

(47:38):
but then she kind of disappears from the movie. I
think that the character we really get to see a
full arc of like navigating this world is Sylvia Slash.
I forget what her real world name is, but like Sylvia.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Is her real world name, Laura Lauren was the character.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Lauren's her fake name. Yeah, she's the only woman in
the story who you get to really see out her
story because you do get to see so many micro
levels of complicity, where like we're just saying, like the
buck doesn't even stop with Christoff. We see these like
nameless masses watching the Truman Show and being complicit in
there watching and being a fan. We see like Sylvia

(48:17):
elect out. We see Paul Giamadi be like I don't
want to kill him, all right, I guess I have
to because it's my job. Like, there's so many micro levels,
but the movie does seem still primarily interested in like
the micro levels that exist for white men at every
level of society.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Right.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
I again, since it had been a few years since
I've watched this, I sort of forgot how present Sylvia
is because she's sort of the only character that is
objecting to the exploitation that's happening with this show.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
She's cool. I love it. She's so interesting.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
I like her too, and I couldn't remember like once
she gets, you know, booted off the show when she
tries to expose to Truman, what's actually happening, I was like, Okay,
do we see her again? And if so, how frequently
and what is she doing? I kind of forgot that
she makes that phone call to Christoph. I remembered her
as just sort of like watching and hoping that Truman

(49:20):
would reach his liberation kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (49:23):
Well, she's got some free Truman signs behind her and
stuff too, which leads me to think there's at least
there's some level of a movement.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
Yeah, I hope. So, yeah, I would be curious if
that was like deleted scenes stuff, because yeah, it seems
like that has been her. Like, I mean, whatever, Truman's
been through a lot, he's got a lot to reckon with.
But you know, to find out that your crush has
since dedicated her life deliberating you from the Sico government
experiment like good self esteem boost to be like, not

(49:53):
only didn't she forget you, she's professionally obsessed with you, Jude.
But I really liked that even though we don't. I
kind of like that we don't see them reunite. It's
just implied that they do. And it's one of the
few like whatever the looming sort of like love story,
but also like they it's just like they represent something

(50:13):
to each other that is really significant, and I was
moved by it. I thought it was so beautiful.

Speaker 4 (50:21):
Well and it's like them us not seeing that means
that Truman had that moment to himself too, you.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Know that's so true. Oh I didn't think about that.

Speaker 4 (50:29):
Yeah, that's a private thing that he got. Shit, it's
just beautiful, beautiful, I know what that like makes me emotional?

Speaker 3 (50:37):
Yeah, that's really nice. Yeah. I found their dynamics so
moving and beautiful where they just like they they are
childhood sweethearts in one way, but it's also just like
they represent like liberation to each other and like yeah,
that's so cool, like yeah kidding, yeah, well no.

Speaker 4 (50:57):
I know, but I mean, well, it's like it's the
the yearning for freedom and then like pursuing it at
all costs in him like getting over his fears and
being like I know this isn't right. I'm going to
push against this. Like entertainment fascism that he's surrounded by. Honestly,
I mean it is like a full mechanism just to
keep his free will completely beat down. Yeah, and it's

(51:21):
like it's powerful, and that.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
Like him being drawn to Sylvia Lauren at the time,
like that that that she also like symbolizes to him
the one off script choice he like confidently made and
was like punished for. It's just like, oh, it's so good. Yeah,
So I mean I the two I guess, I mean

(51:46):
Holland Taylor also, I don't think as strong of a
presence as she could or should have been, because also
it's like you have Holland Taylor, let's give her more
to do. So we do have like three women in that.
And then there's also a woman who works with Paul
Giamanni and Ed Harris, but she mostly just responds to things.
She doesn't really do very much. One of the few
people of color in the movie.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
I don't even know if we learn her name.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
Yeah, like so we I would say, we basically have
three women characters. And yeah, I would say, like Sylvia
they stick the landing with and that that story is
like fully realized and beautiful. I do wish that Hannah
wasn't disappeared from the plot in a special Marl.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Yeah, I was thinking about that too, but then I
was like, well, they write his dad back in, and
then as soon as he's presumably a fixture in Truman's
life again, he's not like the dad character is gone too.
So I don't even know if it's like necessarily a
gendered thing.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
No, no, I don't. I don't think it's a gender thing.
I think it just sticks out because there's so few
women of importance in the script.

Speaker 4 (52:56):
Definitely, right, well, and it's it's interesting too. It's like
thinking about that from Hannah's the actor's perspective too, though.
I mean I would have liked more outside of the
Dome because I think the second you're like, it's unprofessional,
my line's been crossed, I'm out. Yeah, like you would
be gone. I mean, yeah, I would love to see
deleted scenes of these. I always wish we got so

(53:18):
much more of the world because it's like I would
love to know so much, Yeah, so much more of it.
I love that you found like some of the backstory
stuff because maybe she does does she have enough money?

Speaker 5 (53:26):
Now?

Speaker 4 (53:26):
Did she make enough money?

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Like?

Speaker 4 (53:28):
Does she get to go do QVC for a living, right.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
I'm sure. I'm sure she'll you know, land on her feet.

Speaker 4 (53:37):
But it's just like, yeah, it is.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
I mean, it's comparatively a small thing, and I feel
like Laura Lennie makes so much of the time she
spends on screen where I feel like the two images
that I most strongly associate with this movie are Jim
Carrey at the wall at the end and Laura Lenny's
smiling and holding up the like malt.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
Spice or dicer.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
Oh the malt. Yeah, any of her product placement shots
are like the other big thing. And so it's like,
but yeah, this movie has so much going for it
that it's like hard to hard to stay mad.

Speaker 4 (54:09):
It's also tight too, It's like yay really Like it's
so I forgot how quickly that light falls at the
very beginning, where I was like, oh, we got exciting
incident in like four minutes in or something like that.
It's so quick You're like, oh, wow, we're off to
the races.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
I've got a Phillip Glass score. There's just everything is happening. Yeah,
I love it.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
Yeah, Well, something that I kind of forgot about the
Meryl character slash sort of the production design of the
whole movie is that it's embodying this like nineteen fifties
white suburban ideal, where like Meryl is dressed like a
suburban housewife.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
Donna read days, Yeah, Donna Reid had a part time job, right.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
And then I was thinking about like the whole product
design of the entire movie, because I don't know how
aware I even was that it is emulating this nineteen
fifties esthetic. I think it was like a detail that
I mostly overlooked when I watched it as a younger person,
but this time I was like, really, I really latched

(55:17):
onto it. And then I was also thinking about Sea
Haven Island as one of the characters. Yeah, and then
I learned that the majority of the movie was filmed
in a place called Seaside, Florida, which is, as we
mentioned earlier, a master planned community, which, for anyone who's

(55:39):
not familiar with that, it's a part of the new
Urbanism design movement that promotes walkable neighborhoods and seeks to
eliminate urban sprawl, which sounds great in theory. But then
I was like, wait a minute, where have I heard
this ar exactly? I was like where have I heard

(56:00):
this term master planned community before? And then I remembered
a place that I learned about many years ago called Celebration, Florida.
Do either of you know about this place?

Speaker 3 (56:08):
Yeah, the Disney company town.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Yes, And so even though the Truman Show is not
filmed at Celebration, I feel like there are like interesting
parallels between Sea Haven Island and Celebration because there are
these like corporate built communities that are incredibly white, incredibly

(56:31):
lacking in racial and economic diversity as well.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
But there's also places like Ford Landia, which was I
believe in Brazil. I mean, companies in the mid century
were doing this. We're like Disney. I feel like Celebration
is the most famous. But yeah, Ford Landia, Sorry, I'm
play it up. It was owned by Ford and it
was a company town that was built in the middle
of the Amazon rainfall. Oh ye doll the Dole Company,

(57:02):
which could be as a whole other They had company
towns in I believe Hawaii, Like there's all sorts of shit.

Speaker 4 (57:11):
Well, a lot of these like billionaires now are trying
to make these like crypto towns in South America too.
That that's some thing they're currently trying to build these
little little libertarian havens that run off of you know,
micro coins and stuff, and.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
Even like smaller quote unquote plant like any gated community
is like building on that idea. And it felt like
there's a lot of like I guess, like movies. I
associate it with movies from the seventies and nineties as
like having strong criticisms of these kinds of communities. But
also I mean, it's not a good movie, but don't worry.
Darling is like kind of doing something similar in like

(57:48):
this simulated American ideal. But I also thought of Edward
Scissorhands in like the way that a neighborhood is false
and presented in a very specific way. And then like
you know, Stafford Wives and Pleasant Villa. Yeah, like all
all this stuff.

Speaker 4 (58:05):
Yeah, I always have to remind myself that Seaside is
not clear Water, Florida in my head, that I know
this is not the scientologist town, but in my head
they are the biggest town, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's like
the same thing to me too. Or it's like a
religion that runs a city, the cult town, yeah town

(58:25):
cult towns or company towns also damn yeah, damn.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
Well, then I was thinking about how Sea Haven Island
is again a very white community, white middle class community,
even though everyone who is there is cast to be there,
like they're very deliberately placed there, so theoretically anybody could
be cast and yet the vast majority of the quote

(58:51):
unquote inhabitants of Sea Haven are white people. And I
was like, Okay, well, is that an intentional creative choice,
meaning like, is this is Christoph's idea of this perfect
world that he has built for Truman. Is that him
making that choice for it to be a nearly entirely

(59:13):
white community, or is it that this is a Hollywood
production in nineteen ninety eight, where most movies had majority
white casts, I would guess.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
So, I mean, yeah, probably a little bit of column,
a little bit of Columbe. Yeah. I feel like this,
I mean, especially because this movie also takes place in
real world nineteen ninety eight, because all the relevant characters
in nineteen ninety eight are also white, it does still
feel like racism of the time as well.

Speaker 4 (59:42):
Yeah, I think it's Yeah, I definitely think it's the
nineteen ninety eight of it all. But I do think
it also like plays into unwittingly into like the pyramid
scheme that is white supremacy, right where you are trying
to build this like perfect world where everything is, you know,
this amazing reality that everyone's watching. It's like it fits,
which it fits into the entertainment fascism of it all,

(01:00:03):
you know, it's like, oh, this is the ideal that
we're all working towards. If you live in a white
Christian nation.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Yeah. I found a piece on the sub stack of
Ida Bradford that examines how the Truman Show, like Truman
Show at the television program where again Truman lives, lives
in this fake, highly controlled world and is like quote
unquote protected from the quote unquote sick world outside. How

(01:00:33):
that can be seen as a metaphor for whiteness and
for how so many white people insulate themselves on individual
levels and then also like on systemic levels, they insulate
themselves from learning about the impacts of racism and capitalism
and colonialism. And I thought it was a really interesting piece.

(01:00:56):
I'll share a few quotes from it here. Quote in
the movie, Truman must give all he has, including his
willingness to live, to uncover the truth. He is only
able to reach the boundaries of the large city sized
dome that has contained his entire life. After choosing to
continue the process of liberation, even if it costs him

(01:01:18):
everything he knows, including his very existence, he would rather
die than continue to live knowing that his life is
nothing more than puppetry. This is the cost of liberation.
This is the reality that white folks, white adjacent and
those with internalized white supremacy need to come to terms with.
They can at any point turn back and live the

(01:01:39):
privilege protected life that hundreds of years of global colonization
and racial capitalism have afforded them. They can, and most do,
choose white supremacy. Even the liberals who are disgusted by
the idea and set themselves as ideologically against it, these
very people give in to the luxuries and comforts of
having their perceptions undisturbed and unchallenged. Unquote. The piece keeps going,

(01:02:03):
and I think the whole thing is worth reading. We
can link it in the description, but it's yeah, it's
like making the argument that this movie can be seen
as a metaphor of that, and the Truman's Liberation is
like allegorical to like people on learning white supremacy and
kind of liberating themselves from them.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
Perhaps even taking the whatever color is it, the red
taking the red pill even though they took that from us.
But anyways, but that's what it originally meant. Yeah, it
is like it like taking it back, taking a red
pill box, but like enlightenment and the willingness to engage.
That's like, that's I want to read that piece.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Yeah, because it does.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
Definitely it feels very I've been thinking about this. I've
been doing a lot of research for a different project
right now about the history of AA, which is a
very white dominated group to this day for many reasons,
but one of them is that there is a sort
of explicit rule in the group of quote unquote not

(01:03:06):
discussing politics, and how that is like such a privileged
white thing to say, because it limits anyone marginalized in
the group from discussing how their marginalization and discrimination has
informed their drinking. And there are all of these testimonies

(01:03:28):
of people of color in AA bringing up how people
being racist towards them has been a factor in their
relationship with drinking and had that conversation completely shut down
because quote unquote, we don't discuss politics here. And like,
I feel like that energy is all over all over
like the Truman simulation. And I would assume it's because

(01:03:52):
Christoph is sort of not even recreating the world of
his childhood, which would have been the fifties ish, but
he's reconstructing the entertainment of his childhood to try to
resell the propaganda he was given for a new generation,
which still happens all the time. But it's like if

(01:04:14):
we we created a simulation where Jim Carrey lived in
Spice World and said this was how nineteen ninety five was. Guys,
we swear, but yeah, just like that, a refusal to
present the world as it is, but insisting that this
is the world, which is like that whole opening sequence
of all the actors being like this is basically real.

(01:04:36):
We basically are okay with this. It's so dark.

Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
Yeah, well, and it's like you also, what's the what's
the oh man, I'm not going to get the quote right.
I'm horrible quoting stuff. But the in World War Two
where they talk about Nazis and they're like, it wasn't
the soldiers that were like always the issue was like
my neighbors that were also complicit in everything. The complete
complicity of the removal of freedom from this person, and

(01:05:05):
everyone just it's going along with it because it's benefiting them.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
And there are there are I mean, Truman's neighbors are
a black family in the in this world, but we
only get to see them say good morning. Like I
don't know. This movie is so tight that it's like
there's a million small interactions that could be It's entirely
its own movie, but it would be interested a series. Well,

(01:05:30):
I was like, I would be interested in just more
simulation stories that don't center around white protagonists, because that,
I mean, I think we've at this point gotten there's
there's a few around white women like step for wives.
Don't worry Darling. Uh, there's certainly two very famous ones
back to back about white men, Truman Show and The Matrix.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
Well, I mean Keanu is mixed, but.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
Oh sorry, that's true. Yeah sorry, white white passing then yeah,
but you know, I think that there there is a
dearth of at least that I know of. If listeners
know of simulation stories that don't revolve around white or
white passing characters, drop them in the chat. I just
love a simulation.

Speaker 4 (01:06:11):
I don't like horror movies, but is the second Jordan
Peel movie, Well, US Goppelgangers is that kind of that?
I never saw it. I'm scared, but.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
Not not quite.

Speaker 4 (01:06:25):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
I guess I wouldn't know how to describe what happens
in US. Yeah, I mean I want to. I think
I do want to see it again, because yeah, I
don't know how to describe what happens. It's not quite that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
But it's not that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
It's not really it's not not that. I don't know
whether it.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
Feels like a theme that i'd like to see Jordan
Peel explore.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
I think I would do a couple masterfully. Yeah, yes,
oh m that Shyamalan The Village get Out is get
Out does have set simulation elements to it, kind of
like there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
There's definitely like a world that's not what it's right,
It's very small, but right, I don't know. Let's well,
little people keep pondering it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
Yeah, we should do a simulation theme on the Matreon
or something that would be interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Let's do it. Yeah, does anyone have anything else they'd
like to talk about.

Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
I'm just trying to I'm looking through all my all
my notes of stuff. I think just the you know,
what's interesting is the Jimmy you mentioned, like the self
surveillance culture that we have going on now. I would
really like to watch this movie with like some gen zs,
some older alphas to be like, what do you think
because you all have each other's locations, Like flap cameras

(01:07:38):
are such a big discussion happening now, Like does this
like horrify you to your core in the same kind
of way because now a lot of these younger people
have been raised in They're much more comfortable to surveillance
from a young age in a similar way, you know.
So I just want to know if this hits as
hard if you've been more raised in.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
It, more acclimated to it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
Yeah, I mean, I know so many people love to
share locations, and I'm always kind of horrified at the
idea of it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
I only do it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
If I'm going on a date and I think I
might be murdered. But then I.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Yeah, but that's kind of it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:12):
Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Well, there's not only this self surveillance component to it,
but there's also just regular ass surveillance. To share a
little anecdote, I recently got back from a trip overseas,
and I have global entry brag, and I like was

(01:08:35):
walking through the global entry line to like whatever pass
through customs and blah blah blah. Normally there would be
a camera that like unfortunately scans all your biometrics and
your face and all that stuff, and then it like
lets you go on through. There wasn't even that. There
wasn't even a camera, so I don't even know what
had scanned me. But I'm walking through and a guy

(01:08:59):
was just like, you're good to go, Caitlin, And I'm like,
how do you know it was me? How do you
know that I'm here? Like it was so freaky, And
I think it just speaks to the level of surveillance
and again with all the biometric data that's being collected
and yeah, and never going to be able to like
have any privacy.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
Like classic police surveillance, and like how all surveillance technology
is inherently.

Speaker 5 (01:09:27):
Racist because of the data sets that they're.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Trained on and they're transphobic because of the data sets
that they're trained on. It just like it's endless. And
then yeah, like we have ring cameras and surveil each
other and there has to be a generational difference like
there too, because I personally, I do not want to
know where my fiance is at. I'm like, if you're
gonna cheat on me, do it normal style, Like it's

(01:09:50):
none of my business, none of my business, and it's
it's first of all, it's creepy to me. And it's
also like feels like I don't trust someone, Like I think,
like what you're talking about, Kayle, it makes total sense
because that's safety and temporary. But then at some point
it's like if I don't know, if if I need
to like put an Apple tag on a boyfriend, then

(01:10:11):
I'm probably not a boyfriend.

Speaker 2 (01:10:13):
Then you shouldn't be with that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:14):
Yeah, right, But it's like a societal urging of the
breaking down of trust between us, right, you know, It's
like they don't want us to have that instinct to
just trust somebody.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
Yeah, you know, bleak.

Speaker 4 (01:10:27):
I just, man, there's so many conversations. But I also
I was just one more thing. I just I always
love to think about Truman getting out seeing Sylvia and
then some lawyer comes and gets him all his residuals
and he gets to do whatever the hell he wants.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
For the rest of it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:44):
He gets to travel a whole world because he's got
MySpace Tom money.

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
Now, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
All he wants is to travel and explore.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
He wants to see Fiji. Oh I mean yeah, I
want him to see the world and go off the grid. Yes, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:11:01):
The only person that's allowed to be an off grid
prepper truly is Truman Burbanks truly.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
And the person who's really earned it.

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well.

Speaker 3 (01:11:11):
It doesn't pass the Bechdel test. Look, we have to
say it. It doesn't. It just doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
The only scene where women are interacting is the Merral
character in Truman's mom and they're talking about True.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
They're talking about Truman, which I'm willing to be generous
and say that's by design that these characters wouldn't have
personal relationships with each other because their coworkers and their
relationship would be incidental to the focus of the show.
Blah blah blah. But I still think that there's far
more room for not white guys in this story than exists,

(01:11:47):
which just feels product of nineteen ninety eight.

Speaker 4 (01:11:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Actually, but what about the most important metric in the world,
the Bechdel cast Nipple scale.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Our skill, where we rate the movie zero five nipples
based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. This
is a tricky one because it's not necessarily like promoting
any ideas of intersectional feminism, but it is examining all
of these things that we've talked about, as far as
exploitation and media.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
Living in a society, society.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
Product placement, and like you know, promoting rampant consumption and consumerism,
selling this idea of a like white hetero status quo utopia,
et cetera, et cetera. And I think the movie has
a lot to say about that. So honestly, I think
I'm going to give it like three nipples, and they're

(01:12:47):
going to queer icons. The two old women who watch
the Truman Show together at home on the couch, and
they're always like snuggling with each other.

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
It's cute.

Speaker 4 (01:12:57):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
It's cute. I love this movie, and I'm going to
give it two nipples, just mainly because it's just like
having It has a lot of interesting societal commentary, but
is mostly still relegated to how society shapes and affects
this specific white guy. And I do think that that
is intentional for all of these reasons. But I'm more

(01:13:21):
I guess thinking about the characters that we meet outside
of people who aren't the nineteen ninety eight characters we meet,
I still feel like there that is an opportunity to
show a more diverse array of characters, to show you
the world that Truman is not able to participate in.
That said, it's pretty close to a perfect movie, and
I love it very much and it's a part of

(01:13:42):
my family now. But I'm two nipples, one to LAURELINI
and one two. Oh my gosh, I don't think I've
seen her in anything else. Natasha macklhone shout out to.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
Her, Brandy, how about you.

Speaker 4 (01:13:59):
I'll give it. I'll give it three as well, I
think for similar reasons I'll give I'll give it a
little bit more, just because I think that it is also,
like I don't know, showing that the way that like
a straight white Ki can also become a victim of
the assign of things. I think maybe hopefully that helps
that story break through to some people that might need that,

(01:14:21):
because it is, like, you know, ultimately, like even the
system that in theory is like benefiting you, you will
ultimately become a victim of it if you step outside
of it. It's a prison, still a prison. And I'm
gonna give him. I'm gonna give alter Jim Carrey. I'm
just so proud of him. I'm just so proud of him.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):
Close personal friend, my close personal friend.

Speaker 4 (01:14:42):
I'm just I'm just so proud of him. He was
he dropped out of high school in ninth grade and
was like houses with his family for years in Canada.
And like I just, I'm just always so proud of him.
He's a problematic fave for life. He always will be fair.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
We all get at least one. Yeah, well, thank you
so much for coming back and having this discussion with us.

Speaker 4 (01:15:04):
Come back anytime, Yeah, come back absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Tell us what you want to plug and where to
where to if people want to watch your.

Speaker 3 (01:15:15):
Seven oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:15:17):
Please come surveil me on Instagram at brand Dazzle on Instagram,
I'm on TikTok at Brand Dazzle is here. I barely
use it, but if you follow me, maybe I feel
compelled to. My new comedy special is called Milk Job.
It is available everywhere that you listen to audio, but
also it is available on video at YouTube dot com,

(01:15:40):
slash at sign burn This Records, which is a record
label that I started a few years ago to try
to create a more artist friendly space in the comedy
industry because it's getting bad and worse all the time,
and I'm just trying to create like an equitable space
to try to like help out people around the country
that I've meet that are like pillars in their own

(01:16:01):
local comedy scenes, are keeping like an independent alternative to
the current mainstream bs afloat that's awesome. Basically, Yeah, it's
like I'm I'm a punk rock kid through and through,
and I'm trying to like bring that ethos to more
and more to comedy, and like it's important that there
is a healthy working class middle the middle class in comedy.

(01:16:23):
And yeah, if you want to come and listen to
some comics you might not have heard of but are
very funny and are very funny and are very good people.
These are the metrics by which I am trying to
build a label, and I'm really proud of it and
the comedy. The YouTube shape page is almost monetized, and
what would mean a lot to me is if you
could subscribe but then also definitely watch the special and

(01:16:44):
then if you want to throw it on a few
more times on mute, I wouldn't be mad at you.
I'm about one thousand hours from being fully monetized and
that would mean a lot. So I'm it's insight. We're
very close and you guys could get me there and
that would mean a lot to me and a lot
of good people.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
Amazing cast hive you night, and we'll have the link
in the description as well.

Speaker 4 (01:17:05):
Yes, absolutely leave a comment. Let me know how many
nipples you would give German show in on on milk job.
I would love that. Yeah, please please do.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
And with that, good night inwe night is it on,
good afternoon and good night bye bye.

Speaker 3 (01:17:28):
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and
produced by Me, Jamie Loftus.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
And Me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by
Sophie Lichtermann and.

Speaker 5 (01:17:39):
Edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever Heard of Them? That's me
and our logo and merch and all of our artwork
in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever heard of Her?

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
Oh My God? And our theme song, by the way,
was composed by Mike Kaplan.

Speaker 2 (01:17:54):
With vocals by Katherine Vosskrasinski.

Speaker 3 (01:17:57):
Iconic and a special thanks to the one and all
Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash
Spectelcast