West Side Story (1961) with Becca Ramos

*finger snap* Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Becca Ramos *finger snap* discuss West Side Story (1961) finger snap

Follow Becca on Instagram at @beccsramos and check out her new podcast, Welcome to El Barrio!

 

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
On the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The questions asked if movies have.

Speaker 3 (00:04):
Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
or do they have individualism? The patriarchy, Zephy and Beast
start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Speaker 4 (00:22):
This is how all podcast should start. Now, that's a
good way to sink audio is to do uh to
do the West Side wos. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like
that was a solid intro. We just did what the
movie did, right. I feel good about that.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
I feel great about it. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
My name is Caitlin Derante.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
My name is Jabie Loftus. This is our podcast where
we talk about your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist
lens and the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point
for discussion. But Caitlin, what is the Bechdel Test? Please
tell me for the five probably literally the five hundredth time.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Probably yes, yes. The Bechdel Test is a media metric
created by a dear friend of ours, Alison Bechdel. We
go way back with her last year to last year.
It appeared in her comic Dykes to Watch out For
in the eighties. Originally also known as the Bechdel Wallace test.

(01:23):
It has many versions of it. The one that we
use is this, do two characters of a marginalized gender
have names? Do they speak to each other? And is
there conversation about something other than a man? Also, we
like it when it's like narratively meaningful dialogue and not
just like throw away nonsense.

Speaker 4 (01:42):
It can't be about Tony as the point, we cannot
be talking or Bernardo about Tony or Bernardo and we're
gonna encounter some challenges this week. Were to encounter some
challenges this week, but we have. I mean I was
talking with someone about the podcast yesterday as I've as
I've been known to do. Oh sure, a friend of
his show, Michael Hobbs, and he was saying he was like, oh,

(02:05):
it must be like hard after almost ten years to
keep finding, you know, new movies. And I was like,
you would be surprised at like how many movies have
been made and just like I don't know, there's no
telling why, Like there's just some movies we haven't gotten
to or like we there was a re release or

(02:25):
a remake and it just didn't happen. I don't know
all I had to say today is a movie that
is probably one of the most famous movies that exists,
and here we are covering it ten years later. Yeah,
all I had to say podcast life is long, baby.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Oh my gosh, we're talking about West Side Story nineteen
sixty one, the original film adaptation. Here to talk about
this movie with us is a cherished guest. She's the
producer of some of your favorite podcasts such as Last Cult, Trista's,
The Daily Zeitgeist and Mess. And she's the host of

(03:05):
the new podcast Welcome to El Barrio. And you remember
her from our episode on Magic Mike XXL. Never forget.
It's Becca Ramos.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Hello, God back a coveted stop on my press tour,
the Bechtel Cast. I'm so excited to be back and
to be here.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
Welcome back.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
It's great to have you here.

Speaker 4 (03:26):
Before we before we get into the rich text that
is West Side Story, I want to know more about
the podcast all us about Welcome to El Barrio.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yes, so, Welcome to a Barrio is a podcast about
all things Puerto Rico, where I interview notable port riquas,
whether they are artists, taste makers, community leaders, musicians, et cetera.
About you know what they are doing to redefine what
it means to be Puerto Rican, Puerto Rican, not Puerto Rico.
And you know with the host by the end of

(03:56):
every episode that all the listeners feel a little bit
close to boring matter where they are in the world.
So I'm so excited to be doing it. It's been
like five years in the making, from like inception of
idea to like it live, So it's crazy. It's like
I've been working on this for so long and it's like,
oh my got a doubt.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
Here, it is here, it is. Congratulations, that's so exciting.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Thank you. We got our first few episodes already recorded.
I just finished doing the first episode, which is a
narrative style episode, kind of giving everybody a taste of
what the show will be and why am I doing
it and why now. I think a lot of people
right now are assuming maybe this podcast is coming out
because of Bad Bunnies Rise, but that's not true. We

(04:43):
are more than Bad Bunny, as much as we love him,
and so it's a little bit of an introduction to me.
And then the rest is going to be talk show,
chat show, and we have already three episodes recorded. I
went to Puerto Rico to record them, which was like
really fun and very like exciting.

Speaker 4 (04:59):
But yeah, oh, congratulations, and also so silly that anyone
would be like, oh because bad bunny and you're.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Like and you're like, yeah, he's one guy, but you know,
the island has existed for centuries, so great god.

Speaker 4 (05:12):
But but but just one guy?

Speaker 2 (05:14):
But just one guy?

Speaker 4 (05:15):
People love to say, is it because of one guy?
The answer is never.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yet They're like, he's the most famous guy though, and
I'm like no, no, no, I mean.

Speaker 4 (05:23):
Yes, but no. Well, congratulations, we can't wait to listen.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
And we wanted to talk about a movie today that
that is in conversation with the topic of your podcast,
hence West Side Story. So Becca, tell us about your
relationship with this film.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Well, you know what's funny you guys, hopefully you can
hear me over my two loud hot dogs. But uh,
what I find interesting is that I thought you guys
had covered when I had pitched a bunch of Puerto
Rican movies. I was like, yeah, but they've already done
West Side Story, like obviously shocking.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
I don't, I honestly don't. I feel like it's a
movie we've almost covered several times and it just is
like never made someone's final pick. I don't know why.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, but to say my history, this is a movie
that I feel like, if you are Puerto Rican, if
you grew up, you know, with very Puerto Rican parents,
They're like, yeah, and West Side Story it's, you know,
a historical text of our culture. And I'm like, okay, yeah.
And I remember my dad because he's a big movie buff.
It's probably where I got my love for movies. He

(06:36):
also loves old Hollywood shit, and so he made me
sit down and watch this among like Bush Cassidy and
The Sun Dance Kid and like things like that nature
And I remember watching it and being a little bored
the first time I watched it as a kid, but
then since then, I went and saw it with my
family the twenty twenty one you know redo, and I

(06:58):
remember having lots of complicate feelings about that version, but
upon this rewatch, I have grown a lot of love
for both versions of the movie and it's place in
Puerto Rican history at large. And I actually, you know
what's funny, I asked my parents what their history with
the movie was, because all I knew was like, this

(07:20):
is a strong movie my Household, but I couldn't remember
for the life of me why it mattered to my parents.
And my mom actually sent a voice note and I
honestly forgot to listen to it before this. But my
dad sent an email which was very.

Speaker 4 (07:34):
Long, strong multimedia family.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
You know, my dad is a man of literature. He
loves to write, and let me see if I can
do a little summary of it for you, because I
thought it was like very sweet, because he's a man
of few words in person, but in email he loves
to write a lot yapper. He's a yapper.

Speaker 4 (07:55):
There's many dads that I've like, really come alive in
an email.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
They're just like I can never express to you how
much I love you in person, but I will write
you a lovely letter.

Speaker 4 (08:05):
Yeah, just kind of nice, which.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Is beautiful, but as I'm like skimming it, it is long.
But essentially, my dad is somebody who he never really
identified with his Puerto ricaness. He's not, which is why
I actually was shocked he loved the movie so much
because he's not a proud Puerto Rican like my mom is.
But I guess like when he was young, this is
like one of the few movies. His cousin took him
to who had moved in with him for the summer,

(08:30):
and it was like one of the first pieces of
media that he saw Puerto Ricans portrayed in and it
was such a successful movie that he really fell in
love with it and was like one of the first
and only times he felt proud to be Puerto Rican
was watching this movie. So he also grew up in

(08:50):
La so big movie town obviously, and I think being
in La when you don't have a Portrican community, there's
not a large community. He didn't identify with the Chicano
Comunity too much either, so I think this was just
like one of his first moments where he was like,
oh my god, there's me. Representation matters.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
Wow, that's so lovely. Yeah, it's so interesting listening to
especially people who were like alive when it came out
or even like pre the twenty twenty one movie coming out,
because there is like such a specific relate, like it's
a very individual relationship that people formed this movie, and
it seems like specifically Puerto Rican Americans where where there's like,

(09:28):
I mean, there's like a Lin Manuel Miranda connection all
I mean, all over this musical he like, oh yeah
translated lyrics in two thousand and nine, to have Spanish
lyrics on stage all this stuff.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
But you can hear some of the music is also
like I know, I don't think he taunted as like
the composer, but you can hear like I'm like, oh,
I hear in the Heights in some of these songs
in the twenty nine one.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
Version, ot yeah, and like the visual influence is like
very clear. Twenty twenty one was a very interesting year
for movie musicals that starred Puerto Rican characters. It was like,
because we still haven't covered In the Heights. I think
because we were sort of trying to give some time
because it was such a fraught conversation going on around colorism,

(10:10):
rightfully so at the time that we still were still
waiting to cover it. But I mean in the same
year that Steven Spielberg directs West Side Story, which was
the conversation all its own and you know, beautiful movie.
But why you know all this stuff? And wasn't it
was John cho who directed In the Heights.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
I believe, right, I have so many thought's why I
put on my list. I was like that one I
have a lot of thoughts on John two yeah, John Chu, Slade, wicked, obvi, Slade,
crazy rich Asians.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
But Slade step up two yeah, three yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Justin Bieber's documentary question.

Speaker 4 (10:46):
A generational artist.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
But but this was not I think. I think he
was set up for failure in a way, and I
was actually shocked. And this is obviously a discussion to
come back on for In the Heights later, But I
was shocked Lynn didn't directed himself, because later I think
that year he directed Tictik Boom as his directorial debut.
So I was like, yes, you were already putting your
hat in the director ring. Why didn't you just direct it?

Speaker 4 (11:11):
I was also confused. I wonder, I don't know. I
was also sort of confused at that. But he gave
an interview around I think it was for a documentary
release about Rita Moreno, around the time that the re
release came out in twenty twenty one, talking about the
first time he saw Westside Story, and it sounds very
similar to your dad's anecdote where he was, you know,

(11:33):
saying like he saw for the first time on VHS
when he was twelve and was like shocked that the theme
of being Puerto Rican was explored at all, and yeah
it was like, you know, like flawed but exciting, and yes, yeah,
it's it's interesting here. And then you hear the total
opposite of Puerto Rican viewers who are like, I hated

(11:53):
it from moment one because brown face, and you're like, yes, it's.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
Like such a caricature of the Puerto Rican identity for sure.
And I think I always felt complicated about that because
I watched it and I was like, huh. But now
that I am like doing the show and I've done
a lot of research for this episode and I now
watched both of them back to back, I was like, Okay,
I see both sides of this conversation. I see why

(12:19):
the generation before us loved and hated it, because there
are people of my dad's generation that were like, this
is awful. And when the Broadway musical came out, like
on Broadway, it was obviously very poorly received by Puerto Ricans,
but I do think because it was it was truly
white people in brown face, like it was vaudeville. You know,
there were no Puerto Rican actors doing any of the

(12:41):
roles when it was on Broadway. But then in the
movie production. They had at least like a couple latinos.
They had to rita moreno, but like you know, it
was just like a slight sup from what was on Broadway.

Speaker 4 (12:56):
Yeah, I was. I mean, researching what the original Broadway
production is like is pretty horrific. Yeah, and as well
as I mean, we'll talk about this later in the episode,
but specifically how the song America was like revised and
revised and it's kind of still being revised is frustrating
and fascinating to learn about. Yeah, have you ever seen

(13:16):
it on stage? I've never. I think I haven't seen
a high school production of it.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
They I'm from Texas, so they did not care to
do this in any of our high school productions. I mean,
I wasn't a theater kid, but I had a lot
of theater friends, so I would go see all of
their shows. But I remember our town being a big one.
I don't remember the other few that they did, but
it was never West Side, and even at Baylor, where
it is a big theater arts program at Baylor, we

(13:43):
never did it at Baylor either won or why shocker,
So I had never seen it and they only revived
it recently when the twenty twenty one came out, but
I didn't get a chance to see it here in
New York. So no, I haven't seen it, but I would.

Speaker 4 (13:56):
Love to, Kitlyn. What is your history with West Side Story?

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Oh my gosh. I saw it for the first time
during either during the great Caitlin movie binge of two
thousand and five, or I also did a smaller movie
binge in like two thousand and three when I was
still in high school and I was like deciding that
I wanted to be a film major and I have
to watch some movies to prepare for that. I think

(14:22):
it might have been then. Whatever. Either way, it's like
been twenty or more years since I've seen it, and
I didn't quite realize this until I rewatched to prep
for this episode. But almost every song in this movie
is so entrenched in the zeitgeist.

Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yea.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
They were all very, very familiar to me, and I
was like, oh, I didn't even realize that that song
was from this I feel pretty musical. I didn't remember
that at all. That was the one that I was like,
wait a minute, that's from What Side Story?

Speaker 4 (14:53):
Yeah, yeah, So it's weird. It's like seeing the Nutcracker
and you're like, wait, I know all of these Yeah,
I didn't realize.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, right, So that was you know, that was kind
of a pleasant surprise. But listeners of the podcast might
know this, But I'm not the biggest musical head, so
I tend not to seek them out, or if I
do watch them. It's kind of that one time. Although
I did see the twenty twenty one Spielberg adaptation when

(15:22):
it came out, and I was like, why is the
lighting in this movie so weird? Why am I watching
all these people dance all the time?

Speaker 4 (15:32):
Why am I looking at angel El's court the al.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, sex criminal ansel El Gordon.

Speaker 4 (15:39):
I I do appreciate that at very least he has
sort of been removed from the culture, it seems like,
to the point where I no longer know his name. So,
you know, good job everyone, good job.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
Yes, yes, he wasn't good enough for people to want
to keep him around, so they were like, Okay, you're
getting canceled, we can just let you go.

Speaker 4 (15:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Also totally forgot that the guy from Challengers Mike Face.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Oh yeah, Mike Feist.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah Feist?

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Is is it East? I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
I have no idea how to.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Know either way, he stole the show.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
He is he is so great casting and I have
some notes about the twenty twenty one version, but most
of this episode will be focused on the nineteen sixty
one adaptation, just because.

Speaker 4 (16:24):
There's so much, Like I feel we should almost do
an entirely separate episode about Toy Toy one, but we
should talk about like some of the adaptation changes and
stuff for sure.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
But yeah, that's pretty much my history. It has catchy songs,
and those are the main things that I remembered about it.
But as we've been saying, it's a rich text and
there's a lot to discuss, So I'm excited to get
into it. Jamie, what is your relationship with West Side Story?

Speaker 4 (16:50):
Nothing and a lot, I feel like, definitely. I remember
seeing this movie for the first time in middle school
with a very impactful music teacher. I had missus Vallani
shout out to her. She showed it to us during class,
and I think, similar to you, Becca, I was like,
this is long. This is very long.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
It's three hours and there's an intermission built into the movie.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
Yeah, and for that reason, I'm sure it took us
like four school days to watch. And I was sort
of like, sure, right now. I definitely saw a community
production of it as a kid that I don't recall,
and then I didn't see it for a long time.
I actually I will out myself as I have done
a lot of research about the spielbrain adaptation. I still
haven't seen it. That's okay, But I am a member

(17:35):
of Rachel z Eggler Nation. Proud member of Rachel z
Eglar Nation. Yes, but yeah, I haven't seen the new one.
But I did get a chance last year to see
I'm a big read a Marino fan. I got to
interview her five years ago and it was like one
of the highlights of life. She's so amazing. And last year,

(17:57):
my friend works at the Academy Museum in LA and
got us tickets to see West Side Story with Rita
Moreno introducing it, and it was so wonderful. It was
a great I mean, I definitely liked it a lot
better seeing it in a huge theater because it was
both Rida Moreno and Tony Oh my god, Tony who's

(18:19):
also in Twin Peaks. Richard Bamer was there and at
the time, yeah, and he's still alive, but he and
Rida Moreno had this very sweet dynamic. I guess they've
been friends for like our parents' entire lifetimes. Riada Moreno
is so funny, and I mean, we'll talk about this

(18:39):
as we get into the discussion, but I really appreciate
how she I don't know, I feel like she's really
able to hold a lot of truths at once when
it comes to this movie. She is not shy about
talking about the obvious glaring issues with this movie of
the aggressive use of brown face. She had a lot
of comments on stage this time, I believe, in like

(19:01):
over the years, about how the scene with Anita Layt
in the movie where she's assaulted by the Jets, how
that personally affected her. But the most impactful part of
the discussion to me was when apropos of Nothing. In
the middle of this talk back, where she was talking
about West Side Story in a way that i'd heard
her talk before, she randomly brought up that she had

(19:22):
fucked Marlon Brando and his dick was huge. Oh, I
have a lot.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
I have a lot to add to that discussion on
the Marlon Brando of it all because I just read
her memoir.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
Oh my god, there is It's like.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's like girl at ninety years old, my love, I
let it go.

Speaker 4 (19:40):
She is still she's still hung up.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
We get we'll get into that, but like I'm like,
I have so much knowledge right now about it. It's crazy.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
Please I want I haven't read her memory yet. But
it was so funny because everyone was like, wait, what
question prompted this anecdote?

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Like she if she can, she will. She's like, and
the love of my life, even though I was married
to a man for fifty something years and have my
child with them. I love Marlon Brando, and you're like,
you're liked Moreno, he did not love you that way, Like.

Speaker 4 (20:12):
Oh, but that's the But isn't that the one you
end up hung up on? Too bad for her? I
know I was that. I looked up her like her
mar I was like, oh and she was married for
so long. He did not come up.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
No, she's truly like, that's my daughter's father, and that's it.
I might have been married to him, but that's my
that's my daughter's father, not my husband.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
Yeah, my husband was a beard for Marlon Brando.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Basically, it's like in Titanic when old Rose is like
my husband, who I only care about? Jack? Dawson.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
No, it literally is like that, except it's more romantic
in Titanic because Jack Dawson obviously loved her and Marlon
Brando abused read.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
Morne for yeah like a dad man, And I do
reck recommend it's a rare experience, but I do recommend
the version of watching was Eel White gets so much
better if Riedom Morano talks about Marlon Brando's penis immediately
before it starts. That was the most recent time I
had seen it. And yeah, I mean I am able

(21:16):
to appreciate a lot of this movie. I love a musical.
It's beautiful. It's likeaful, colorful Riadom Moreno steals the show.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
Steals the show.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
I do you know. I will always feel that Natalie
Wood and Richard Bahmer, bless their hearts, are stinking up
the place. Well, we'll obviously be talking in depth about
the use of brown face throughout the history of this production.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
And I have some notes on her on Natalie Wood's racism.
That's from Riadam Morino's book.

Speaker 4 (21:46):
Really okay. Yeah, So, in spite of the fact that
the two leads, I will say are very poorly cast
for multiple reasons, the supporting cast is wonderful and I
appreciate it with many asterisks, and I'm excited to talk
about it.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yes, yes, indeed. Well let's take a quick break and
then we'll come back for the recap. We're back. I

(22:26):
wonder how that's going to actually.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
Sound on the recording on the zoom.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
So it's like, yeah, we can hear it in your
mic probably, but not in our minds.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
We're like, yes, exactly, uh huh, I did it perfectly,
just so you know. Okay, here's the story. We open
on a street gang of young men slash. Are they teenagers?

Speaker 4 (22:53):
They're like c W. I think that I like the
CW casting here where everyone's like kind of forty.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Everyone's definitely at least thirty, because Rita Moreno's thirty yea
at this time.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
So but they're playing like sixteen, eighteen, maybe early twenties.
It's all like very young, so right, Yeah, anyway, this
street gang of men are snapping their fingers and dancing
their way through New York City. Ever heard of it?
These are the jets.

Speaker 4 (23:22):
I love the snaps. The snaps are iconic.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yes, they are white men. An unsettling number of them
are blonde.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Which is purposeful, mind you that was a casting choice. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
Their leader is Riff, played by Amber Tamblin's dad.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
Oh my gosh, wow, I didn't know that she was
a Nippo baby.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
It's a it's yeah, I guess if you don't know
about nineteen fifties Broadway star Russ Hamblin, it's a not starter.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
And then a few others. We meet our characters named nice,
horrible name with the current affiliation. There's a character named Action.
There's a character with a name that I don't even
want to say because it's a slur for Arab people.
Not sure what's happening there anyway? Are those are the jets?

(24:19):
They encounter various members of the Sharks, a group of
Puerto Rican men, and as we've alluded to several times already,
it is a lot of white actors in brown face.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Can I know which ones are actually Puerto Ricanan not?

Speaker 4 (24:36):
Yes? Yes, please?

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Okay? So Chino who is Jose de Vega. He is
not Puerto Rican, but he is Colombian and Filipino. He's
one of the few actual men of color in the Sharks.
Him Rogers Loco is Puerto Rican and he's from Junko's
which is where Rita Moreno's from. Oh and the main
Shark though Bernardo he is actually Greek and he played

(25:03):
a riff in the West Side Story Broadway production, so
they literally just like race traded him and brown faced
him and they're like, you could be Bernardo and.

Speaker 4 (25:13):
He won an oscar, and he won an Oscar for it.
Which is the amount of times the Oscars have awarded
performances of this nature is I mean, in like just
openly offensive performances still happens, Still happens. I'm looking at you,
Eddie redmain Danish girl still happens to this day. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
So the thing about the Jets and the Sharks is
that they are rivals. You might even call it a
heated rivalry.

Speaker 4 (25:43):
But I do reely well, I mean, this is like
what there's in the twenty thousand things that are to
talk about in this movie, the like top gun nature
to the fraternal like the fraternal nature of the gangs,
like there there is some eroticism. This was written by
will not shock you or anyone if you don't know
that this was a musical written by white gay guys.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yes correct at the time closeted and therefore they were,
from what I read, exercising some of their own issues
through the text.

Speaker 4 (26:19):
Yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
So the point is the Jets and the Sharks are rivals,
kind of like the Capulets and the Montagues. What is
this a Romeo and Juliette adaptation, except in this case
one group is very racist toward the other group, and
you can guess which. So they're like on the same

(26:41):
playground or some They're in the streets together and they
are dance fighting for a while until a couple of
cops show up. This is Lieutenant Shrank, and I'm like,
Lieutenant sure.

Speaker 4 (26:56):
Crack, there's not the only shark connection reaction to this,
because I feel like we have to have brought this
up at some point. Rachel Zegler iconically, when she got
the part of Maria in the twenty twenty one version,
they wanted her to start filming and she's like, well,
I have to finish starring as Princess Fiona in my

(27:16):
high school's production of musical and then I'll join your
little movie, Steven Spielberg. She's so awesome.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
I did not know that. That's amazing. Yeah, wow, shout
out Rachel Zegler a very outspoken pro Palestine advocate.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yes, which I'm a fan of Rachel Zegler as a person.
I will say, did not like her as Maria, and
that's a conversation for later. But I'm like, I'm a
fan of her, but I just don't think she was
quite right for the part. I think people are very
wrapped up in her vocals, which are, no question, some
of the best vocals out there, right, and they were

(27:54):
incredible in the movie. But I don't think she was
a good Maria. And we can have that just later.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
And I'm so curious for your thoughts. Yeah, I still haven't.
I still haven't seen her as Maria, but she does
have perfect politics and is a podcast listener. She's like,
yeah on blank fan of you, Rachel Zegler, Yeah, she
should come on our show. Yeah, but I'm I'm excited
to talk about the twenty twenty one version. Interesting.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
Okay, so it's Lieutenant Shrek.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yeah, it's Shrek, and Shrek is a bad man.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
He's a really bad man. Yeah, and we'll talk about
the character's relationship to the police in this movie, because
I think it's quite interesting.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
I think it's more it's way more nuanced that I
recalled Yes, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
So so it's Lieutenant Shrank and Officer kup Key. They
show up to try to like kind of break up
the dance fight, but the various members of the two
gangs refuse to rat on each other, and one of
them even suggects that it was the cops who injured

(29:03):
one of the Jets. So the Jets and the Sharks
say a cab.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
They said a cab street rules.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, and the cops were like, stop you guys, stop it,
and then they eventually leave.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
Also, in this version of New York, if only it
were real, there's two cops.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
There's there's only two cops that are following this specific
gang around. They're like, I'm with you.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
Yeah, we're racist too. The other officer, Kraftkey, reminded me
of Kronk from Emerson Group. He's just like not a
thought in this man's head. Many such cops.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
He's just bully. He's just like, yeah, hey, guys, stuck
it off.

Speaker 4 (29:45):
Knock it off.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yes. So the cops eventually leave, and the Jets wonder
what to do about the Sharks quote unquote encroaching on
their turf riff. The leader of the Jets, announces the
they should have one huge fight, a big rumble, a
fight to end all fights with the Sharks. But first

(30:10):
they need to negotiate with the Sharks about the terms
of this rumble. So Riff goes to Tony, who used
to be a Jet, and Tony is still friends with them,
but he's like not really involved and they are gang
activities anymore.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
They do not give enough backstory as to like why
and like what happened, which twenty twenty one version tries
to revise.

Speaker 4 (30:33):
But yeah, correct, I feel like, yeah in sixty one,
it's just like he's like I'm kind of over it.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, okay, you're like, that's not how gangs work.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
Really, it's my part time job now, guys. Sorry. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Uh So he's out of the group, but Riff wants
to rope him back in and if he loves Tony,
he's like he's basically like, hey, babe, want to go
to the dance with me tonight. I from the and
start a War.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
I do really like the Tony's first song. There's like
this something that I think this this movie does really
well is like very like romanticizes and captures naive optimism
and love and I like that first Tony song and
I like the dance scene for that reason.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Yeah, so Tony reluctantly agrees to join this negotiation. But
again with Tony, he's more of a lover than a fighter,
and he's talking about how he's been yearning for something
and maybe that's something is the love of a woman,
and maybe that woman is Maria, who we cut too.

(31:47):
She is played by Natalie wood Oops, another white person
in brown face.

Speaker 4 (31:53):
Who, as is very common at this time, is not
singing her own role. So there's the only justification for
her play this role is that she was famous at
the time.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yeah right, Yeah, So Maria is getting ready for the dance.
She is Bernardo's sister who has recently arrived in New
York from Puerto Rico. She's hanging out with her friend
Anita played by Rita Marino, who is dating Bernardo. Maria
is supposed to marry or she's like kind of been

(32:26):
linked up with this guy named Chino, one of the Sharks,
but she's not thrilled about it, which.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Some insight on why they probably named him Chino specifically
based on who they casted. I don't I mean I
don't know if they had this thought with the actual
Broadway production, but in a lot of like Latino communities,
they will give you a nickname based on like a
characteristic of you. And I'm assuming they casted a Filipino

(32:53):
and Latino actor because Chino usually means that person is Asian,
so they were probably like, he's Chinese and Puerto Ricans,
so we call him Gino.

Speaker 4 (33:05):
Interesting, Okay, interesting? Yeah, there were certain nicknames throughout the
Jets and Sharks that I was like, I don't know
if there is a ground for this or if it
is just like vaguely racist free form jazz.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
It's a little bit of both, because it's like Gino
could be like some racist shit the white people wrote,
because that's why I'm like, I don't know how much
historical contacts they have, but it's also not out of
character for Latino communities, Like I was called Laka my
whole life because I was like the skinny cousin, you know,
So yeah, it's partially that. Oh sure.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
So then we cut to the dance. The Jets and
the Sharks are both there because her four be damned.
When there's a school dance to be had, you gotta
dance and this means another dance fight. Although okay, so
in this movie there are fight dances and then there
are dance fights. Yes, and there are two different things. Yes,

(33:59):
this you know when you see it's precisely this is
an example of a dance fight.

Speaker 4 (34:04):
It's so good.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
I love like this is one of my favorite scenes.
It's so fun. It's so like old Hollywood, but like
the best parts of old Hollywood where people really like
were like focused on their craft and they were dancers
and they were singers and their actors, and it's like
the colors and the editing. It's you see readA Morino
really shine like as a dancer here, it's like good. Oh,

(34:26):
it's so good.

Speaker 4 (34:27):
It's so cool. Like and the Jerome Robins choreography, Yes,
so beautiful for those that are locked into Jerome Robin's culture.
He directed and was an iconic choreographer. I feel like
he's like kind of on par with Bob Fosse for
like the most influential choreographers of like the twentieth century.
He did on The Town, Peter Pan, The King and I,

(34:48):
The Pajama Game, West Side Story, Fiddler on the Roof.
He won two oscars.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
He's just like incredible.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
The dance fights and the fight dances are just undeniable.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Very well choreographed.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
So at the dance, Maria and Tony meet and they
go hubba hubba a wooga and they fall immediately in love.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
I love the editing. They're so in love, you're like, and.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
They're about to kiss, but Bernardo butts in and separates them,
being like, stay away from my sister. Thus the forbidden
Romeo and Juliet esque love story. Then Riff and Bernardo
make arrangements to have their rumble negotiation meeting that night

(35:37):
at midnight, So everyone leaves the dance. Tony heads home.
He's singing about how much he loves Maria. He just
met a girl named Maria.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Well yes, yeah, say loud and there's music playing, say
it softly and it's almost like pray.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
I really so good. This musical really captures falling in love.
It's so sweet. This reminded me a lot of because
Stephen Sondheim wrote the lyrics for these songs. Yes, and
it's very similar to another song he writes later in
Sweeney Todd Joanna, which is basically the same song but
different where he's like, I feel you Joa No, Like,

(36:16):
it's just like I just met a woman and now
I'm screaming her name in the streets. It's a vibe.
I like it. It's like, oh, yeah, I guess this.
Sondheim was like, uh, so you meet a lady and
it feels a little something like this.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Well, it's funny that you say that. This movie like
captures falling in love, and it's nice because the cynic
in me. I was like, Oh, these characters have known
each other for two days and they're already so obsessed
with each other that they're willing to die for each other.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
That's Shakespeare.

Speaker 4 (36:45):
The kids, It's exciting, like, that's.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
The exact thing, that is what Shakespeare did. It was like,
what three days and all of them happens in Yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:55):
I mean, at least Natalie Wood isn't a twelve year old,
you know, there's true.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, but I agree watching this version, you are kind
of like, oh, I feel like I will give the
twenty twenty one credit. I feel like they gave a
little bit more for them to like fall in love,
at least a little bit.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
More talking I don't know, and then other characters being
like you've known him for a day.

Speaker 4 (37:17):
Yeah, like ohous.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
I don't like when movies do that. I feel like
that started in like when Frozen did that where it's
like you have to like call out this like romantic narrative.
I don't know, I'm I'm hopeless romantic mode. But whenever
something like that is happening in a movie and someone's
like record scratch, Wait a second, you just met, I'm
like shot at a movie.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
I'm the one. I'm the one making the record scratch
because I'm.

Speaker 4 (37:41):
Just like it's ridiculous and I'm saying, shut the hell up,
I'm gonna go have sex, like I think it's exciting.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
It's less like I feel like in this nineteen sixty
one version it works for me because it is so
shot like an actual play, whereas they do actually in
the nineteen or nineteen the twenty between one version, they
try to make it a movie, and I do think
that's way more different in the two, whereas like I
can I'm like I'm in the world in the nineteen

(38:09):
sixty one one because You're like this is a play,
like it actually looks like I'm watching something on Broadway.
But the twenty Tway one. They're trying to like world,
build it more and it feels like a feel more
like sense. Yeah, so then I'm kind of taken out
of it a little more in the twenty tway one version,
which is.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
Wild too because in the I didn't know there's a
I feel like we cite her on the show pretty frequently.
There's a b kind rewind video essay that sort of
compares the two versions and like how the productions were
very different and all that, and this movie was considered
to be very It feels like ridiculous to say if
it was considered to be very gritty in comparison to

(38:48):
other musicals of the time. Yeah, because it was actually
shot outside and like not completely on a sound stage,
but it looks so Broadway. I don't know, it looks
like a broad Bay set. It's shocking that it is not.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
But also most of it is on a Broadway set
from what I write. So I was like, what they
shot two scenes outside and you're calling it gritty.

Speaker 4 (39:07):
It's just like the beginning basically, and they're like, never
been done before, it's filthy.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Okay, sure, yeah, Okay, So Tony is in love with
Maria and Maria is in love with Tony. Meanwhile, the
Sharks talk about the racial prejudice they face, how they
are treated horribly by white people. This is the scene
where they sing I like to be in America, which

(39:36):
okay by me and.

Speaker 4 (39:37):
America, well we'll sidebar on that yes song, which is
the whole episode in and of.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
It's unpacked there. Yeah, Tony goes to Maria's apartment, but
like the outside balcony part, and they sing at each
other again. They're obsessed with each other. They make plans
to meet up again the following night, MEANWHI. While the
Jets are waiting for the Sharks to show up for

(40:04):
this negotiation, they're hanging out at this little store owned
by a guy named Doc. There are also a few
women there, like the women who pile around with the.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Jets, the groupies kind of right.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
We've got Graciela Velma and a character named Anybody's who
we will talk about, and we see the various men
be sexists toward these young women. Then that cop officer
Krupke shows up again and hassles the Jets, so they

(40:42):
sing a song about him and about how society perceives
them as delinquents. Then the Sharks finally show up and
they agree to do a fight tomorrow after dark under
the Highway, where the best fighter from the Jets and
the Sharks will go against each other. It's Bernardo versus Ice,

(41:09):
but Bernardo was hoping to fight Tony since he's been
noodling with his sister Maria.

Speaker 4 (41:15):
And objectively would be pretty easy to be in the flight.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
Oh yeah, he's got a very punishable face.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
He does. He does. You're like, yeah, of course you
want to beat this guy.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Then Lieutenant Shrank or whatever shows up, wanting to know
the details of the fight, but once again they all
refuse to talk. They do not cooperate with the cops.
Then we have the intermission cut to the next day.
Maria is with her friends. She sings, I feel pretty,

(41:50):
so pretty, and then she finds out from Anita that
there's a big rumble that night between the Sharks and
the Jets. So when Tony up a little bit later,
Maria asks him to go and stop it, so he
heads out, but not before they sing what I'm Sorry
I think is a very boring song.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yes, okay, I actually really like this song. I think
it's like really cute and fun and funny that they're like,
oh my god, like look at our little wedding.

Speaker 4 (42:20):
I love them. I love how that scene looks.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yes, cute. I think it adds levity to this story
that like is not what Steven Spoberg wanted to do.
And then re like he cuts the song completely. Yeah,
and I was kind of sad that he cut this
song because it did just like make the movie like
very dark in the new remake versus this one kind
of has that old Hollywood like comedy too, because like

(42:44):
all the Broadway Hollywood movies were kind of like this
like sea song, like dark but like comedic tone, and
I liked that, but yeah, they get rid of it
in the new one, and I was sad.

Speaker 4 (42:54):
I like it. I like, I mean, I like this.
I don't like the song, but I do like this sequence,
especially because the actors do not look as young as
they're supposed to be and it is kind of nice
to I don't know, like following like the same with
like the romantic thing. It's like they're so desperate to
be with each other that they like stage a cutie

(43:17):
pile little wedding with I don't know, I think it's
I think it's a sweet yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
Like I think this moment in the movie worked for
me in general because it kind of a showed their
age of like they're young, they're in love, Like we're
showing that they're like just naive young people, and it
kind of like shows what it means to be like
newly in love that like giddy puppy love feeling. And
I hate that they got rid of that in the

(43:41):
New one because I do think the tone being so
serious in the New one where it's like they're like
doing this like instead this very declarative like love scene
in the New one that I was like, we haven't
worked up to that, Like it takes me out of
be like Kela was saying, where I'm like, we're a
day in you guys have already agreed to flee some together,
and now you guys are like having this serious talk

(44:02):
where she's like like you need to stop this fight
and then he's like I want to marry you and
you're like huh, like y'all don't know each other.

Speaker 4 (44:10):
Yere okay.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
In this version, it's like, oh, this is silly. It's
supposed to be, Like it's not serious. They are getting
to know each other, having fun.

Speaker 4 (44:17):
I also thought like it was I wonder what you
even think about this? Like on this watch in particular,
it felt like part of what makes that scene like
sweet and clearly ominous. Yes, is, and this is obviously
severely undercut by the fact that Natalie Wood is white.
But they're like acting out this play situation of their

(44:38):
families accepting each other because they know that that would
never happen in real life. Yes, And like, I don't know,
I think it's like it's a weirdly kind of lighthearted
way of addressing that in the movie.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Yeah, And I liked the part where they're role playing
and like the mannekins are there in the various like
dresses and tuxedos and all the stuff that happens before
the song charming nice the song itself.

Speaker 4 (45:02):
Okay, the song's kind of mid.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
I guess you're right. I don't like the song asself.
I just like this scene.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, scene, good song bad Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Okay. So that happens. Then the two groups make their
way to the rumble spot and they're about to start fighting.
Tony shows up to try to stop it, but he
kind of gets roped into the fight again. Bernardo has
it out for Tony, so they're scuffling. Things escalate, knives

(45:34):
are drawn. There is a fight dance not to be
confused with a dance fight, where Bernardo stabs Riff and
then Tony retaliates and stabs Bernardo. She know goes to
Maria to tell her that her new boyfriend just killed

(45:55):
her brother. So she is devastated.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Okay, but we have to note here that Gino tells
Maria because Maria is too focused on like Tony. After
he goes, your boyfriend killed your brother, She's like, but
it's Tony, okay, and she knows, Like what the fuck right, Belie,
because you're like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This man you've
known for forty eight hours murdered your brother. And you're

(46:19):
still like, but I'm gonna run.

Speaker 4 (46:21):
Away with that Tony?

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Is he okay?

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (46:23):
I for me.

Speaker 4 (46:24):
And it's like I know that she's supposed to be
very young and naive, but like, Maria's behavior is impossible
to rationalize, impossible starting here, I mean, especially the way
that she treats Anita, and like the gravity of what
she asks from Anita.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Yeah, is just like I think they handle it better
in the new version, but still it's just like in
this one, you're like, huh.

Speaker 4 (46:47):
Absurd, Like you get actively frustrated with her and Tony.
Like by the end of this movie a movie I enjoy,
I'm not rooting for them. I'm just not.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
No, you're like, good riddens, everyone's dead, good ridden?

Speaker 4 (46:59):
How fucking title this? Tony to'd be like, oh, the
things happen and she's like, okay, makes sense, Like.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
Yeah, what, no problem.

Speaker 4 (47:06):
It's yeah infuriating.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Yeah, because Tony shows up to say that he needs
her forgiveness, and he intends to go to the cops
to turn himself in, and she's like, no, don't do that.

Speaker 4 (47:19):
I love you.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Let's run away together. So they form a plan to flee.
Cut to the Jets who are dealing with the aftermath
of Riff's death. They're sad, they're angry. They sing a
song about how they have to be cool and keep
a level head.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
This is I'm interested to talk about this because the
dancing is funny. To be like, it does feel like
a very like a dance sequence interpreting white masculine repression
question mark something like that. I think I like it,
but it's weird. It's very long.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
It's very long. I think it's one of the longest
numbers that I felt like kind of was.

Speaker 4 (48:02):
Like like I get it.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
I was like, okay, move it along.

Speaker 4 (48:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
Well, because there's also the scene right before this. I
think the character's name is.

Speaker 4 (48:12):
Baby John or something like the comic book kid.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, and then another character approaches him. Baby John has
been crying, but he like brushes it off.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Like, no, gotta be tough.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
I don't want the guys to see me like this. Yeah,
so he like regains his composure and then they meet
up with the rest of the jets. But yeah, I
think there's very much a like we have to suppress
our emotions and be.

Speaker 4 (48:39):
Cool, right, But also I feel like we don't see
the sharks go through a similar process, which I'm I
don't know I'm interested to talk about that because I
don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I was like,
be cool is first of all, I would rather have
cut back to see how the sharks are processing Bernardo's
death because we don't really get to see that outside

(49:00):
Maria and Anita no, which doesn't make any sense. But
it also but like in that context, I'm like, I
wonder if be cool is like part of why they
have to be cool is because they have to preserve
this very racially informed relationship they have with the cops,
because the cops yes literally say to them, we want
to believe you. And so it's like, if they can

(49:20):
pull off, you know, appearing credible to the cops, it
won't be that hard for them. They just have to
like sort of keep it together. And like, I don't know,
it just like added an interesting, it's still too long,
but I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
No.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
So then that character named Anybody's shows up saying that
Chino has a gun and he's planning to kill Tony.
So the Jets realize they have to find Tony and
keep him safe. Tony, who is still with Maria, he
goes off to borrow some money so that they can flee.

(49:59):
They arrange for Maria to meet up with him at
Doc's store. Anita comes in finds out that Maria is
still with Tony even after he killed Bernardo. So Anita
is like, you'll never believe it.

Speaker 4 (50:15):
She's upset, like.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Yeah, She's like, what the fuck he killed my boyfriend.
He's a murderer brother, You're a inerader.

Speaker 4 (50:24):
So baffling to me because it's like Maria and Bernardo
had a complicated relationship. He was over exerting control over her.
But they I wouldn't say they had a bad relationship,
Like it was very affectionate.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
And it's like contextually, it's like she just immigrated here
from Puerto Rico. So he's being very protective of her
because he's like, you are my responsibility now, like I
have to make sure you're safe in this new foreign
land that we are all trying to navigate. You don't
speak very good English.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
You know.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
In theory, obviously Nally Wood is doing it so like whatever,
But if we're talking realistically, she had just gotten off
the boat from Port ric Go, she wouldn't speak very
much English, and she's a child, so it's like, of course,
young there is tension, but it's like not any worse
tension than like a parent with a child, Like that
is normal tension.

Speaker 4 (51:11):
Yeah, her, I don't know, I mean, I it wasn't abusive.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
He wasn't, you know, hitting her, hurting her, harming her,
you know, No, he was just.

Speaker 4 (51:19):
Being like I mean again, it's like this, I understand
that teenagers are upset when like someone exerts control over them,
and fair enough, but it's like not upset to their
point that you would not react to their death untimely
murder by your guy you're.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Dating, because it was like when he he murdered him
like on purpose, Like it wasn't like, oh my god,
there was all these knives and I actually knifed him.
It was like he chose his white brethren over his
love for you, to be honest, because he wouldn't have
chose your boyfriend.

Speaker 4 (51:51):
Why are you choosing him? Yes, Like it doesn't make
any sense. He chose the other person. I uh, it's so.
I mean I think that that the probably a lot
of that is because of like how randomly like this.
I feel like this movie is very committed to mapping
exactly onto Romeo and Juliet at moments where it's like
you probably should have considered the relationships of the characters

(52:14):
and their culture and their predicament instead of just being like, well,
Romeo kills tibblets, so yeah whatever, Like you're like, well,
people are famously bumped by that, so maybe do something.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Yes, So Anita is calling out Maria for being a trader.
But Maria is like, but I love Tony and love
is beautiful, fine that I love him. Then Lieutenant Shrink
shows up to question Maria about Bernardo's death, and so

(52:48):
since Maria can't leave right away to meet up with Tony,
she sends Anita to Doc's store to tell Tony that
I think like Maria will just like come as soon
as she can.

Speaker 4 (53:00):
That is like the I mean, Rita. Marina is has
such incredible range in this movie, and like that even
though the Maria's behavior feels so irrational, I feel like
how Anita reacts in that moment when Maria asks her
to do something so impossible and so like, you know,
insensitive to what Anita is going through, but you can

(53:23):
just tell, like you know why Anita's doing it because
she doesn't want to lose another person, and it's just
like it's heartbreaking. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
Absolutely, So Anita shows up at the store, the Jets
harass and assault her until Doc comes in and intervenes,
and because of what she just experienced, she's like, fuck
you guys, you're monsters, and then she tells a.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
Lot so fuck Maria, yeah for putting me in this position,
and I also think in a.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Way she almost is also trying to protect Maria and
be like, I'm not gonna let you be a part
of this whatever this is. Like, if they were so
quick to do this to me, you think they're gonna
protect you just because you're with Tony? Like absolutely, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
So she tells a lie to try to keep everyone safe,
her loved ones safe, and to try to kind of
put an end to this whole thing. Unfortunately, it backfires,
but she tells the Jets to tell Tony that Chino
found out about Tony and Maria, and so Chino killed Maria.

(54:31):
Doc relays that information to Tony, who is devastated. So
he goes out into the street. He's flailing around, but
then Maria she's able to come outside, so she sees
him and they're like running toward each other, but before
they can embrace, Chino shows up and shoots Tony. Maria is,

(54:54):
of course distraught. Tony dies in her arms. The Jets
and the Sharks have all gathered around, and Maria calls
them out for their needless hate and violence. She threatens
to kill them all and herself, but then the cops
show up and the movie ends with the Jets and

(55:15):
the Sharks seemingly putting aside their differences and helping to
carry away Tony's body together.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Like at the end of the day, Acaby.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
Right, right, that is their single unifying issue.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and
we'll come back to discuss. And we're back back.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
Becca. We know you've done a ton of research. Is
there anywhere where you are really wanting to start here?

Speaker 2 (55:54):
I do want to give some like nineteen fifties context
that I think this version, specifically the nineteen sixty one
version tries to like sprinkle because it's obviously kind of
in real time, but I think the two thousand and
one or twenty twenty one version rectifies a lot of
that like lack of context and kind of just in

(56:16):
conversation of the lack of real representation of Puerto Ricans.
It's like using Puerto Ricans as this like platform to
have this story versus like actually thinking about them in
the context of this time. But in the nineteen fifties,
you're having the Puerto Rican Great Migration to New York City,
where it's a rapid population growth, intense discrimination, and an

(56:38):
emergence of the new Eurekan identity, thank you Wikipedia, centered
in neighborhoods like East Harlem, South Bronx, and West Side,
which is San Juan Hill, which is where this story begins.
But San Juan Hill is actually a very particular neighborhood.
It was an original slum of Puerto Ricans and black Caribbeans.

(56:59):
And then in this time that the movie's happening, which
they portray better in the new version, it's being demolished
for the Lincoln Center. The Lincoln Center to this day
sits on top of black and brown bodies. Like to
be as explicit as possible, they killed lots of people
to have that because they try to migrate them uptown.
That's how you ended up with Puerto Ricans in Harlem,

(57:22):
the Bronx, Washington Heights. All of that is because basically
the rich people were like, we want this because it's
by the park. This has to be for the whites now,
and so they like literally bulldoze over this whole slum
of Puerto Ricans and try to push them out. And
I think in the new version they ad trust that
a lot more of like this actual dialogue in the

(57:45):
movie about like why are the people migrating and like
the opportunities that the realtors promised them that were not true.
They got to these housings and the Bronx and Washington
hids and they were filled with rats and cockroaches and
they were built and they literally like evicted these people
saying no, we have housing for you up there, like
just pack your stuff today and go and there will

(58:07):
be a house for you. And then there wasn't. So
it was just like this really dark time to be
Puerto Rican. And obviously they don't really highlight that in
the movie, and I don't think it gives enough context
as to why there's such racial tension between these two communities.
And I mean, of course besides the factor they're brown
and white, but like there is a lot of like

(58:28):
real shit happening like in real time at this time
for Puerto Ricans.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Can I follow that up with context about the conception
of the stage musical, because I.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
Was going to say, because it's like I feel like
the reason it's not there is because the writers and
creators probably didn't even know and didn't have interest. No
Puerto Rican culture is kind of randomly selected for this.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
Yes, Yeah, so here's what happened there. So Roame Robbins
conceived of this idea for the original Broadway musical that
debuted in nineteen fifty seven.

Speaker 4 (59:09):
From an idea from Montgomery Cliff, which is just an
interesting piece of queer history. They were like on vacation together.
Montgomery Cliff is like, I have a little idea. This
like came out of Fire Island.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
But the idea originated in nineteen forty nine, where Jerome
Robbins was like, Okay, what if I tell a story
about a Catholic family and a Jewish family living on
the Lower east Side of Manhattan. So originally the story
was called east Side Story, Yes, and it would center

(59:43):
on the Catholics being anti Semitic to the Jewish characters.
And based on my research, it seems like the Maria
character would have originally been a Jewish girl who had
survived the Holocaust and emigrated from Israel.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
And you're like, what do you mean? Yeah, literally he
was less.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Yeah, So you know, there's that. So Arthur Lorentz gets
brought onto the project to write the book for this musical,
and he finishes a draft and then everyone who was
involved realized that this play had already been written basically,
and that these same themes were explored in a play

(01:00:28):
called Abby's Irish Rose.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
They're like, oh, man, we already did it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
They're like, oh shucks. So Jerome Robbins drops out of
the project. He Arthur Lwentz and Leonard Bernstein, who had
also been brought on. They all go their separate ways
for years. The project was shelved for like five years.
Cut to nineteen fifty five. They come back together. They
decide to work on the project again. Lorentz and Bernstein

(01:00:57):
meet up in Hollywood in Beverly Hills. Wow, and they're like,
what about all these juvenile street gangs and turf wars
that we've been hearing about in the news, right.

Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
Which is like a very popular thematic. I think that
that's like a part of the reason that Natalie Wood
ends up in this part, because she appeared in a
lot of these sort of juvenile, delinquent exploratory stories, which
of course is like couched in a lot of bullshit. Yeah,
but it was like such a popular theme in the fifties.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
It was such a popular theme. But also I think
specifically as Kaelin was knowing this meeting was happening, in
Hollywood at this time. Specifically, there were a lot of
Chicano turf wars happening in La so they were like, well,
what if we flip it, because they still wanted it
to be in New York. So you're like, what if
we there's those new Puerto Ricans coming in to New York, right,
like what do we do that? And so I think

(01:01:48):
that like literally was it like they were just like, well,
we can't have we don't have Mexicans in New York,
So what do we what do we do about that?
So let's just we know those new Reakens are coming
to get them in the mix.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
That is literally what happened.

Speaker 4 (01:02:02):
And that seems like the beginning and end of the.

Speaker 5 (01:02:05):
Conation of because the rest is just like stereotypes and
they weren't like not wrong, like that San Juan Hill
stuff was happening.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
There was a lot of like turf happening, I guess
in a degree, but really it was just like people
who were like already were marginalized and forced to come
to America and then being displaced in their one home
that they've known that they've been able to build since
the thirties when the migration kind of started post World
War One. There's a really great exhibit. The reason I

(01:02:32):
know all this is because in New York at Centro
Pire Hunter College, it's a really great Portrigan Studies program.
It's probably like nationally known as like one of the
biggest Portrigan Studies programs. They have an exhibit called San
Juan Hill and they go over all these different artifacts
and they do these different interviews with families whose families
immigrated from San Juan Hill and it's just like really

(01:02:55):
incredible like piece of like preserving archival history of Puerto
Ricans in New York that like the governments try to
wipe away. And I think like they've done a little
bit of like well we put up a memorial of
San Juan Hill in the Lincoln Center and you're like, okay,
but it's still or Juilliard is and it's still the
Lincoln Center, Like like where's the money for those family?

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
About all the people you displaced?

Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
Yeah, And it's like how frequently, I mean, I feel
like every major city has there. I mean I feel
like Dodger Stadium and has a very very similar thing,
and we are seeing it happen here right now to
historically black communities and to unhouse people for over the Olympics.
Like it's just it's so I was glad to hear.
And again I haven't seen the movie that, you know.

(01:03:42):
I maybe I'm wrong, but that like Robert Moses is
even kind of like name checked in the twenty twenty
one version as like this is the person doing this. Yeah,
but I don't know. Yeah, I not surprising, but just
like it's so egregious how like especially I mean, I
feel like the America is a perfect case study for

(01:04:02):
this of like presenting some valid issues but in a
completely like contextless void.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Yes, if we want to talk about that, let's get
into it, because I do have a lot of conflicting
feelings about that song because I think in this lens,
I'm like, you know what, that song is not invalid,
because I do think a lot of Puerto Ricans, especially
at that time, who were trying to like make an
honest living and like make a life for themselves in

(01:04:30):
the United States, felt that way. And I think that's
like a very common immigrant story of like our you know,
parents and our grandparents who had to assimilate by any
means necessary to survive, and so they are like we're
in America. We're Americans.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
We have to adapt, we have to conform so that
we can be successful and live the American dream. But
a bunch of white people wrote it, and they did
not care for the cultural context of those Puerto Ricans
singing it, what it meant to them, what it was about.
So it's like it's like almost like a a bad
clock is right twice a day or whatever, you know,
a broken clock is right twice a day. It was

(01:05:05):
kind of like that, where it's like they weren't wrong,
but the way they came from was not nice, versus
like the reality of the situation is true.

Speaker 4 (01:05:15):
It was interesting tracing how this song has been modified
over time because it's and this isn't a full his
My notes are disorganized, so I apologize, but for I
mean Rita Moreno has mentioned that like she was a
reason that part of the lyrics were adjusted for the

(01:05:37):
nineteen sixty one version originally. I also think that there's
like a gender dynamic change in the way this song
is delivered. America is originally only song with women. It's
only Puerto Rican women singing to each other, and it's
a character named Rosalia who exists in the movie, but
far less so. Who is you know, expressing like I

(01:05:58):
really miss Puerto Rico so beautiful, like feeling homesick, and
then Anita is aggressively like, no, like it sucks. There's
a ugly island, tropic diseases like this very very internalized
hatred of Puerto Rico. It's changed for the movie. Some
of the language is softened and the gender dynamic is

(01:06:20):
changed so that it's Bernardo and Anita singing to each
other about this, and Anita's character is I've seen it argued,
is presented as a little more flippant and not like
she is saying necessarily this is the truth, which I
guess is how it was presented on Broadway. And then
it's changed again for twenty twenty one, where Ariana Debo's

(01:06:43):
does not disparage Puerto Rico in America, but there is
still kind of this like confusing amount of context. And
then also in the movie, I'm curious for what you
think about this, because Bernardo is like making some excellent points, yes,
throughout the song, which.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
Is why I don't hate the song, because I'm like,
I don't think it's inherently like I think I did
not have the context of the actual Broadway lyrics, and
that makes more sense why people hated the broad because
I'm like everything I read was like everyone hated the
Broadway version than they love the movie, and I didn't
notice how much had changed. I knew Rito was a
big part of any changes that were made to the

(01:07:18):
movie experience versus the Broadway musical. But I think it
is a real conversation that those who are immigrating have
of like this, like we love our homeland, but those
who are I think it's very common. I have this
conversation with my dad and my grandmother, like in the podcast,
of like the way that they will rewrite history to

(01:07:40):
make themselves not feel the pain. And I think it's
a part of it is the assimilation, where it's like
if we don't love this place, if we don't make
ourselves love this place, then we'll be reminded of how
painful it is to be here. And I think that
is like the push and pull between Anita and Bernardo,
where he I think it's just like this is temporary,

(01:08:01):
I'm here to make money, I'm gonna go back home anything.
Anita sees the realities that like there is no home.
We're not going back. We don't have the resources, We're
never gonna have the money to go back, Like, we
have to make a life here, so get used to it,
almost And I don't think this is a wrong narrative
that was had in the fifties. I think it's very real.

Speaker 4 (01:08:24):
So yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
Wish that specific sentiment that you just detailed was more
explicit in the movie, because the way the nineteen sixty
one movie handles this dynamic of like the conflicting attitudes
between it seems like it's all of the women being like,
I love America, it's awesome. And the reasons that they cite,

(01:08:47):
like the lyrics are things like skyscrapers bloom in America,
cadillacs zoom in America, industry booms in America. They're talking
about how they can buy stuff on credit, how they
can have all these pretty dresses. All this stuff makes
them seem like they're obsessed with like American capitalism and
consumerism in a way that makes them seem kind of shallow.

(01:09:08):
And then the men come in with points like we
get paid half the amount as white people do for
the same labor. We are charged twice the amount to
buy things than white people. The only jobs that we
are able to ever get are things like waiting tables
and shining shoes. We are treated like outsiders and foreigners,

(01:09:29):
even though Puerto Rico is part of the US, like
but we are treated as though we are not Americans.
So there's like what feels like a very like stereotypical
gender dynamic almost happening where it's like, well, the girls
love America because they can buy pretty dresses here.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
They can shop because when to be shopping, they get job,
they can drive, they can do all this stuff, and
it's so hard because it's like I as someone who's
had a lived Portagon experience with Portagon grandparents and parents,
and like my Aula is from Spanish Harlem like born
and raised in New York during this time, Like my
great grandmother and Rito Moreno's moms both immigrated to the

(01:10:07):
United States at the same time, which was before the
Big Boom. But they immigrated for probably similar reasons, which
was like stuff back home, like really gendered abusive, like
parental or familial misogynist stuff back home. And I do
think there is like this idea as a woman in
Puerto Rico coming to the United States that you have

(01:10:28):
freedom in a way that you don't have in a
very traditional machismo society, especially back then. So but it's
like I have that context. I know the writers don't
have that context. So it's like I am putting a
lot on this song where I'm like, I see the benefits,
I see how this is relatable. But then it's like
I get angry knowing like, well, they're actually not doing

(01:10:49):
it in that same way. They're not giving it as
much heart and depth of care and reasoning for those reasons.
They just luckily kind of fell into it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:58):
It like improves slightly over time. Yeah, there is. On
the West Side Story official website, they have the fifty
seven sixty one lyrics side by side, and the fifty
seven one is just full on American propaganda and it's
white people in brown face being like America's amazing, Puerto
Rican women love America and have no notes, no, and

(01:11:20):
so the sixty one one is an improvement. But I
agree with both you that like there is I think
and this was something Okay, I want to quote a
piece I read that was written for the LATINX Project
by Aurora Flores Hostos back in twenty twenty one when
the Spielberg version came out, where she's taking a look
at the entire movie and how it like existed in

(01:11:42):
response to its predecessors, but specifically brings up these lyrics
and says something similar bucka of like in the sixty
one movie, there are things that were gotten right, probably
almost by mistake. Yeah, but that she didn't love the
changes that were made to the song. In twenty twenty one,
she writes, quote, west Side Story was written in a
controversial time that resulted in a convoluted story about misplaced culture,

(01:12:04):
identity and survival in a hostile world. But it was
real that those early America lyrics were racist, is true,
But shouldn't we hear how America really felt about us
at that time? That nascent purity of thought is what
is sealed in the stereotypes, and trying to undo it,
its archetypical credibility is altered, which I think is interesting.
And I mean of all three because I did listen

(01:12:25):
to the Ariana Debo's Steven Spielberg version of America. And
even though that is a version that is not openly
hostile to Puerto Rico, which is important, I still feel
like no version of this song, at least that I've heard,
addresses that the problem is the title of the song. Yeah,

(01:12:47):
like there is no acknowledgment of like, you know, even
though Bernardo and the men in the sixty one version
are making a lot of valid points as to what
their predicament is and how they're being forced into these awfuls,
that it's not really explicitly stated that that is the
fault of what America was doing in Puerto Rico at

(01:13:08):
that time. Like there's just like this history.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
Void absolutely, like they were forced to leave. Like I
think there's this idea in American history and the way
that it's taught about the Puerto Rican Great Migration, like
it was like this win for Puerto Rico. It's like
literally America came in through the Jones Act, like wreak
tavoc to this industrial revolution in Puerto Rico basically to
make Puerto Rico a tax even strip it of all

(01:13:32):
its resources. And then when the industrial boom fell and
there were no longer job like all the jobs that
Puerto Ricans had being forced to do in this industrial
revolution and then the industrial revolution fell, they were like, well,
there's no jobs in Puerto Rico. All the factories took
all our jobs, and now the factories are closed, so
what do we do? We have to And then in

(01:13:52):
that like America's like we feel bad. They kind of
like promoted this like exile of Puerto Ricans because the
population had double. They were like, well, we'll just make
room for you in America. I guess like we have
to now. And there was also a lot of and
Portocan historians don't get at me, this is like a
lot of jumbled history that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
I have in my brain.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
But from what I understand, also there was like a
little bit of a globalization of port Rico for the
first time because flights were finally coming to and from
Puerto Rico around this time, which also added to the boom.
It was no longer by boat, but you could take
PanAm flights to Puerto Rico. And so because of America,
Puerto Ricans can't live in Puerto Rico, right, Like that

(01:14:34):
is the reality, like America destroyed Puerto Rico and then
expected Puerto Rico to just like fix itself.

Speaker 4 (01:14:41):
I don't know, like it is in no way a
one to one comparison for many reasons, but I was
reminded as we were like looking at particularly how this
movie ends, where it's like both sides of this conflict
have to admit that things have gone too far because
a white man has done yes, it wasn't enough when

(01:15:03):
Bernard and no, the reaction, the void of reaction to
Bernardo's death is shocking except for Anita, but it reminded
me a lot of how the conflict between the Indigenous
community and the Europeans is presented in Pocahontas, where it's
like they're presented as equally violent and just man is

(01:15:23):
inherently violent and there is no context as to why,
even though in West Side Story you do get more
certainly than you get in Pocahontas, which is a horrible yardstick,
like not saying much, I feel like the I don't know,
maybe there is stuff I missed, but like the closest
you get for like clear headed context is I think

(01:15:45):
it's in that that first, like they're making terms for
the for their brawl or whatever they call it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
No, but I think you're so right, because like if
I think about the context of the Puerto Ricans throughout
the whole movie, and I do think the twenty twenty
one version does a lot to try to rectify some
of this with like its dialogue and you know the
inclusion of Spanish language in the change version.

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
But that's not subtitled either, and it's yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
It's not subtitled. But in the nineteen sixty one A
obviously none of them are Spanish because none of them can.
But b it's like we get that Greek, yeah, because
they're Greek, but we get that whole song contextualizing why
these white boys are bad boys, right, like why the
Jets are bad. They got bad mothers, they got bad fathers, whatever.

(01:16:29):
You're getting a whole context on why these white boys
are bad white boys. But then you never get any
context of why the Puerto Ricans are strifed. Why and
the reality the closest you get is the America song.
And even then it's like played is almost like, oh
my god, the men are overreacting. They have such a
beautiful life here in the United States. But in reality,

(01:16:50):
it's like these men by these white boys are being
pushed out of their neighborhood. They also are poor. They
also and they also I think in this version versus
the twenty one one version, they make it a point
that like, the Porto Ricans have jobs and the white
boys in the Jets in the twenty twenty one don't
have jobs. So they're like, the Puerto Ricans are better
in that one way.

Speaker 4 (01:17:10):
Let's tie it to capitalism. That's important, yes, yes, yes, but.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
In this sixty one version, the Portterians never have jobs,
it seems like, and that's purposeful. I think it's like
to be like they're lazy. They're fighting.

Speaker 4 (01:17:20):
The women do. It's just women do, but the men don't. Yeah,
it's confused. I mean, they're they're they're the one line
that stood out to me on this and it's so small.
And then one thousand year long movie is when the
Jets and the Sharks are agreeing on the terms of
the brawl or whatever, and the Jets are trying to
explain why they're so upset, and Bernardo says like they're

(01:17:43):
they're like, well, why did you yell at our friend today?
He's like, well, why did you start picking on me
and everyone I know the second we got there and
then you start shouting slurs and so it's like it
is in there, but it's so fleeting yea and spoken
in actor by actors in brown face that you're just like, well,
it didn't happen. There was one quick I mean, there

(01:18:04):
was so much written about the legacy of this movie,
and will include a bunch of please drop your links in, yes,
because there's so much that I know, we can't possibly
touch on all of it. But there was a really
interesting essay I read from twenty seventeen by a writer
named Urasapi about how Westside Story I think Becca, as

(01:18:26):
you were alluding to earlier in the episode, sort of
became a lot of non Puerto Rican people's first introduction
to Puerto Rican culture in a way that is still
echoed in culture today, even though it was written entirely
by white people that weren't even able that, like, you know,
whatever Robert Ager's style wouldn't even go to the library
to figure out like what was at least Robert Agres

(01:18:48):
went to the library once in his Defender.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
Well, West Side Story was the first large scale Hollywood
movie to even acknowledge the presence of Puerto Rican people
in the mainland of the US.

Speaker 4 (01:19:02):
Yes, So in this essay, I think what Eurosapi is
arguing here is is that there's like an undeniable cultural impact,
but also that its existence and how it is like
talked about is like the first mainstream acknowledgment of Puerto
Ricans in like White America. Is that it served to

(01:19:22):
erase a lot of existing Puerto Rican art that was
being made in New York at this time. So she
wrote specifically about a play that debuted and was very
successful in the US in nineteen fifty three, So a
pre West Side Story by a Puerto Rican playwright named
Renee Marcus that was called La Caretta the ox Cart

(01:19:44):
and was prior to West Side Story sort of positioned
to be the most successful Puerto Rican workstage in America
at the time. But then West Side Story came out
and it kind of faded into the background. It didn't
receive a major adaptation, and then West Side Story became
White America's main association with Puerto Rican culture. And yeah,

(01:20:04):
I was able. I think the only have we discussed
this already. The only Puerto Rican cast member in the
original Broadway production was also Anita.

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
Was Cheeta Rivera. We have not discussed this, but I
do have notes on this because Okay, Rita Moreno, in
her memoir is a little shady bitch and I love it.
She's very much like I think she's a product of
her time in this way where it's like women were
forced to compete against each other at every fascinating so
I feel like every old Hollywood woman she mentioned she

(01:20:36):
kind of has to do like a little dig to
be like a little jab, but I'm better.

Speaker 4 (01:20:39):
And also sometimes it's just like whoever lives the longest
gets the final word exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:20:44):
And that two and so she did give a little
jab at Rivera because Cheetah is half Puerto Rican half white.
I can't remember her mix of white immigrant, but is
half white. And she was the original Yes and the
Broadway and apparently she was up for doing it. But
then in the movie Yeah, for the movie, Rita Moreno

(01:21:06):
then studied her ass off and like went to all
these different productions and like did dance classes for like
two months, and also had Marlon Brando call and was like,
can you get Rida Morino in this movie because they
were also talking to Marlon Brando for Tony And it
didn't end up helping at all, like the Marlon Brando,
but basically she ended up becoming the shoe in for

(01:21:28):
Anita and she was just like, ha ha ha, I
beat Cheita Rivera off of it. And she was like,
and Cheida must have been so upset because her husband
was in the movie, because her husband is the other
main jet, not Riff, but the other one that to
me looks like Joey from Friends.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
Oh, yes, yes, I know exactly who you're talking about.
That's action.

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
Yes, So that was like Cheeta Rivera's actual husband in
real life. And so she was like, she was like, yeah,
it must have sucked that she wasn't rip anyway.

Speaker 4 (01:22:00):
Yeah, but wow, I love a memoir, but.

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
That's my my Cheeta Rivera note. But yeah, I mean
that is beautiful that like, that is the it seems
to be that is the one role that the Puerto
Rican gets to play because like obviously Arinabo's is Porto
Rican Dominican, which brings us back to like the Maria discussion.
You know, I was a little disappointed when I saw
Rachel Zegler got the Maria. I understand why she did,

(01:22:25):
because she was the right age, obviously, the right vocal range,
incredible talent, but she's not Puerto Rican, and I'm like,
when will we get to have a Puerto Rican Maria?
You know, she's half white, half Colombian. Yeah, and I'm like,
and she's still half white. And that's not to say
Rachel hasn't been a great advocate for colorism in media
and all that stuff, but I'm like, it is just

(01:22:47):
like this Hollywood thing where it's like, when it comes
to Latinos and Puerto Ricans in general, we never get
to be the lead, even if you go like in
The Heights same year. Yeah, that was the huge controversy, Yeah,
because they didn't hire Puerto Ricans for the main role.
And it's like, Lynn, we'll get there later. But you know,

(01:23:07):
I just was a little disappointed in the Rachel casting
for Maria for the twenty May one and I don't
think she like played a good job at it, because
I do think you're so much more intrigued by all
the supporting characters. There's so much more enticing. There's so
much more interesting than Maria and Tony. And that might
just be a fault of the musical in and of
itself and not the actors. But in this nineteen sixty

(01:23:29):
one version, Natalie wood is because as you mentioned Jamie earlier,
she's a hot lady. At the time, they're like of
course she seems like shee and there was like a
lot of other actresses considered that were white. All of
them were white. Apparently Rito was like roughly considered. But
she I think was too scared to actually be in

(01:23:49):
a leading role at the time, because she hadn't been
in a movie in a while when she got this role,
So she was like very intimidated by the idea of
applying for a lead in a movie. So that's ultimately
why I don't think she did it. That's what she
says in her memoir. But I want to pull this
quote from him memoir about Natalie Wood, specifically in her
role as Maria. She says, and of course it was

(01:24:12):
uncomfortable for the Hispanics to see Natalie would play Maria,
especially because we had heard that Natalie hadn't wanted the part,
but had been so prevailed upon to take it that
she couldn't refuse. Natalie seemed uncomfortable in her role as
Maria when she was around us, a rowdy, ferocious group
of dancers. This may explain her non engaging demeanor with
US Gypsies, which en quote from Marina throughout the shoot.

(01:24:35):
It might have been helpful had we been able to
bombit Natalie, but she kept her distance. So I find
that very telling. I think that was like the nicest
way Rita could put that she was racist on set.
But yeah, I think that was read in the way
that her sheep performed Maria. You could tell she did
not have any care for this character. I think that's
why they're so annoying together Tony and Maria. You're not

(01:24:57):
like sold on their love story. Yeah, And I just
think it was like, this was like the most obvious
fix they could have done for the twenty twenty one version,
and they didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:25:08):
I mean, I think the other thing and this also
applies to the conversation around in the Heights where it's like,
why are we not hiring Puerto Rican directors like John
Choos Steven Spielberg. Their talent is not remotely in question exactly,
but it feels very, very pointed, and it felt I
don't know, I am still curious to see the Spielberg adaptation,

(01:25:29):
because Spielberg movies are great, but this was not his
job to take be a producer, contribute like and I
think that we see this a lot in beginning of
the twenty tens into now I feel like it stuck
out to me, particularly in how the conversation around Moano
has had back in twenty sixteen was like, sure, the

(01:25:50):
directors are white men, but we've hired consultants.

Speaker 2 (01:25:54):
Yeah, we have a lot of consultants.

Speaker 4 (01:25:55):
We actually went to Puerto Rico one time and we
learned so much on in our four days in Puerto
Rico that like we're kind.

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
Of good and we hired Linn to do the soundtrack.

Speaker 3 (01:26:06):
Was that it not enough?

Speaker 4 (01:26:07):
It's I mean truly, I mean that's it's the I
mean Lima and Weil Miranda's fingerprints over the last decade
of culture should be studied, because he does come up
in every single reference point here. But it's frustrating and
I mean like the fact that they're that I don't know,
and I think we used to talk about this differently
on this very show, but I feel like at this

(01:26:28):
point it is like I feel like consultants are not enough.
It is better than what we're doing in nineteen sixty one, certainly,
where it is all YadA YadA, and even and even
the one Puerto Rican actor in the movie is having
their skin darkened, which is absurd. Yes, but like you know,

(01:26:50):
in the twenty tens and twenty twenties, it's also like
it's not sufficient to say I mean it's basically to
be you know, with due respect to the consultants whose
labor a demonstrable effect on the work, but these are
the people who should be directing it, like you know
it it shouldn't. I don't know. It's like remove the
elephant in the room, which is the need for a

(01:27:11):
white director or a white celebrity or a celebrity director
in general.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
It's almost this way of how do I put this kindly,
like when we think about like times up, me too,
all these things, right, whereas like we're gonna like like
like that white pussy half feminism right where it's like no, no, no,
like we're changing things, but it's like only for a
certain demographic. And I do feel like this is a
prime example where it's like we're hiring consultants, we're putting

(01:27:36):
people of color in the roles, we're doing all these things,
but it's like you're still not letting people of color
in the room. You're still not letting them actually make
the work. And it's because a lot of these higher
ups do not want to dethrone themselves because they know
the reality is if they start letting us in the room,
then they don't get to make the work anymore, and
they don't want that. So they are trying to circumvent

(01:27:58):
in all these ways that they can still keep their
little hands on power, you know, instead of just doing
the right thing, which is like maybe the project's not
for you, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:28:07):
And that's okay, like you can's like Steven spielt still
give money to the project, like that is a great
way to support exactly. I don't know. I'm I'm sure
that it is like wonderful, because Spielberg movies are wonderful,
but it did not have to be a Spielberg movie.
And I feel like the press tour around it felt
indicative of like, yes, no, I totally get it. I

(01:28:28):
am famously white, but but but I did this.

Speaker 2 (01:28:31):
I did this. I did I'm also to Steven Spielberg,
so like I did all this stuff because I'm Steven
Spielberg and you're like, okay, yes, And and I think
his whole thing was like, well, I because I'm Steven
Spielberg could get this giant budget to do this movie.
And it's like that's true, but then you could also,
just like you said, Jimmie, produce it and secure the
budget for them and not be the director and actually
give that Puerto Rican person a chance to do this.

(01:28:54):
But I think that was also indicative in the choice
for doing Rachel, because like, her accent is so bad.
I didn't really I didn't remember how bad her accent
was until watching it again, and it just like was
very similar to the Maria of nineteen sixty one Natalie
would where it's just like Rachel clearly speaks Spanish. I
think her mom is the Colombian of the two, which
you know, I think maternal figures tend to be the

(01:29:16):
ones like leading language for the children and stuff. So
like you could tell her Spanish was authentic, and she
did great at speaking in Spanish, but I think she
did not have a Puerto Rican accent. She sounded like
a person trying to have an accent, like trying to
sound like a native speaker of another language, and it
felt very phony to me, whereas like when you heard

(01:29:36):
Ariana Debo speak, I'm like, no, she sounds Puerto Rican,
Like whether she Spanish is her first language or not,
you can tell she has Portocan people in her family
and in her home, and she studied how to speak
in that native like Spanish first Puerto Rican accent, and
that was the difference that made a huge difference to me.
And same thing with Maria. It's like, yes, I know

(01:29:59):
an Rita Moreno had a lot of complaints about being
forced to like over accent herself, but you could still
tell it was Puerto Rican and she had to teach
Natalie Wood how to have that accent, which sucks. It's
like it's like, oh, wow, you make the one Puerto
Rican girl teach the person who hates her right how
to do her job.

Speaker 4 (01:30:17):
It's like cool, Christ, It's I mean, I think there's
a conversation sort of like this going on right now.
But how there is a clear pattern, and I guess
I won't overpathologize it from there because I haven't I
don't have my thoughts organized about it. But how roles
that are cast authentically tend to only be in supporting roles.

(01:30:38):
And then there's always a degree to this day of
you know, even though we are not seeing brown face
in movies now, we're seeing colorism, and I feel like
that sort of speaks to part of what you're talking
about with the Rachel zeglercastik and the fact that, I mean,
even in like this year's Oscar nominee lineup, you really
only see people of color that are strong contenders in

(01:31:01):
supporting supporting categories, which has been true for a very
very long time. And it is like I hadn't even
connected this until we started recording. But like the part
of Anita is like, I mean that won both Rita
Marino and Ariana Deboe's their oscars, But why are they
not considered credible to be the lead And it's like.

Speaker 2 (01:31:20):
Why they're not consider credible? And then the fact that
they still both like after did not get the work
credit that like a person who would win the leading
actor role absolutely would like if Timothy wins, and even
if he doesn't win, he's gonna get booked for a
gazillion more projects coming out for life. He's set for life.
He's been set for life. But it's like, and I know,

(01:31:43):
Ariana Deboe's is kind of an annoying figure from what
I understand in the media a little bit. She's a
little corny. I like, she's just a theater kid.

Speaker 4 (01:31:53):
Ajelavasa did the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:31:55):
Yes, he's a theater kid and we have to let
you know, let her be. But you know she hasn't
had a serious role since then. No, And it's exactly
what happened to Riada Marino, like for years she didn't
work after winning.

Speaker 4 (01:32:08):
That the years there's a similar pattern with awards categories
where I feel like it's a more general marginalization. But
like you will rarely if ever see a woman or
a person of call her win and director they'll win,
and screenplay and likes, there's like all of these like
little negotiations that it just feels like the industry like

(01:32:28):
needling at marginalized people. And yeah, Westside Story is a
frustrating case study for that, because you're totally right. Like
Rida Marinos spoken extensively about how she struggled to find.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Parts because then they just wanted to typecast her in
this specific type of role, like a bad girl Latina,
like a gang affiliated Latina girl. And she's just like
I chose this role, which is heartbreating, because she chose
this role from what I read in her memoir and
just like all the research I did after watching the
movies she TOSU because it was very authentic to her.
She was like, I chose this role because it was

(01:33:01):
a Puerto Rican woman speaking her mind, you know, fighting
back against patriarchy with her partner, you know, standing up
for herself.

Speaker 3 (01:33:08):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
I related to her a lot. I did not want
to be typecast as this gang girl. And then that's
what happened. And it's like, and the reason she won
the Oscar for the performance is because she saw the
authenticity in what she could bring to the role and
brought her whole self to that role. That doesn't mean
she wanted to be a gang woman because it wasn't
about being in a gang. It was about being Puerto Rican.

(01:33:29):
But the white people saw it as her being in
a gang. And you're like, wow, you guys, like are
raises no matter what, Like you loved a role because
she was Puerto Rican, not because she was good at
being in a gang. But you guys refuse to see
the nuance in that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:42):
Yeah, and then Jamie, you alluded to this already, but
that rita Moreno, her skin was darkened along with the
white actors who were.

Speaker 4 (01:33:52):
In spite of her vocal protest against that. Like it
wasn't like she was vocal about it at the time,
and they and they related it anyway, how are they
gonna know?

Speaker 2 (01:34:01):
And it's like, well, I guess fair in the sense
that you guys didn't hire a single Puerto Rican.

Speaker 4 (01:34:05):
Right the call is coming from inside the house and
the answer is not brown face.

Speaker 1 (01:34:11):
Well that's the thing, like the production clearly sees Puerto
Rican people as exactly one type and they look exactly
one way, ignoring the racial diversity within the Puerto Rican community.
Because Moreno is pretty light skinned. They were like, well,
you don't look Puerto Rican enough, and so they put

(01:34:33):
brown makeup on her and put her in brown face essentially.

Speaker 2 (01:34:36):
Which, like Ritom Marino has stated, I don't have the
exact quote, but basically along the lines of like, Puerto
Ricans come in all shape, sizes and colors, like it is,
and that's what she told them. She was like, look,
Puerto Ricans are all types. So like it's okay if
you know the cast of Puerto Ricans looks different, but

(01:34:56):
like you're saying, kiln, they were like, well, we can't
conceptualize and other if there's not a clear other ring,
which is that y'all are brown and they're white.

Speaker 4 (01:35:05):
Right, They decided that like there is a Puerto Rican
color to be yeah, which is just I don't know.
I don't know how she survived the experience. I'm glad
that she still feels at least comfortable and proud enough
of the work that she's you know, making appearances. But
it's interesting tracking her relationship to the material from sixty

(01:35:30):
one to twenty one as well. This sort of transitions
into a different part of the discussion, but around the
assault and attempted rape of Anita's character, where Rita Marino
spoke extensively. It has spoken extensively over the years about
how triggering that shooting that scene was for her because

(01:35:54):
of triggering memories of her own assault by a Hollywood agent.
I don't think that there's more specific information about that,
but being assaulted by an agent when she was a
teenager and that shooting that scene in the early sixties
was deeply traumatic. This scene has been, you know, a
topic of discussion understandably for the entire history of this production.

(01:36:18):
As recently as twenty twenty, there was I don't know
if it was a Broadway or off Broadway staging of it,
but that it was being staged very violently to the
point where it was upsetting to audiences and they had
to dial it back in twenty twenty, which is pretty absurd.
And then in twenty twenty one that Raadom Moreno plays
the character of Doc's his wife, who, again I haven't

(01:36:43):
seen it, but I know that she her character intervenes
in the way that Doc intervenes in the original film.
Radam Morillo intervenes in what I mean, and you can
both speak to it better, but as a more like
an even more aggressive version of that scene. I was, yeah, yeah,
what did you think of that?

Speaker 2 (01:37:04):
I'm glad you brought this up, because I actually have
very frustrating thoughts about this, like about the way it
was portrayed in the twenty twenty one I'm like, Okay, Rita,
this role was very, very, very hard for you. It's
something you have noted in multiple interviews in your memoir
about how violent this role was, how triggering it was
for you. How come you didn't get it cut from

(01:37:26):
the twenty twenty one version outstanding to me, I feel
like it was more violent in the twenty twenty one version.
It was very hard to watch. I had a really
hard time with it. I think if she was going
to rewrite history in the way that she did for
the twenty one version, which she like comes too late.
They've already roughed her up, and she basically just like,

(01:37:48):
what are you guys doing? And then Anita goes, you're
a trader, you know, and she does her big moment
of being like, you're actually the trader you you know,
look at you like supporting these men, and then she's
like delivers a line about how like Maria was, you know,
murdered when she wasn't. I'm like, I feel like, if
we were to perfectly repurpose the scene, ye, Rita could

(01:38:10):
have come in sooner before the men got violent, and
they could have still had the same scene and no
one would have had to be like assault abused and
assaulted or whatever, and it was still so violent. I'm like,
if Rita was so vocal about how violent the scene was,
I'm like, why was it more violent for Ariana in this?
And I'm like, she has noted an interview after interview

(01:38:32):
how long it took them to shoot that scene in
nineteen sixty one. I can only pray and hope that,
like in the twenty twenty one version, it did not
take us long, because if it did, I'm sure that.

Speaker 4 (01:38:42):
Was really hard and that there were like coordinators or
which I'm sure there weren't in the sixties.

Speaker 2 (01:38:46):
Exactly, and it's I don't know. I was a little
disappointed rewatching it, being like, yeah, considering Rita was so
upset about this scene, I'm surprised didn't do more like
chain the scene while keeping it contextually like works within
the film. I don't think it would have been that
hard to.

Speaker 4 (01:39:07):
I mean, I was confused to read that as well,
because I think that, like whatever, in the context of
the story we are, like Anita has to realize once
and for all that like this is not a safe
environment for Maria, like we talked about to the point
where like this white gang does not have a second thought, yeah,
about assaulting a Puerto Rican woman and does not have

(01:39:30):
a second thought of treating her like she doesn't matter,
and that Maria will likely be treated the same. But
there are other ways to demonstrate that point, and like
you're saying, you can demonstrate intent without showing a graphic assault.

Speaker 2 (01:39:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:39:47):
Yeah. The response from the character that Rita Marino plays
in the twenty twenty one version, her name is Valentina. Yes,
she's Doc's his wife. If you never see Doc on screen,
I don't think In the twenty t twenty one version.

Speaker 2 (01:40:00):
No, they just like they show a photo of them, yeah,
in the back of the the like an old shot
of them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:40:07):
Okay. But when she comes in and intervenes, her response
is more heightened than what we saw Doc's response being
in the nineteen sixty one version, where she says, you
guys are disgusting pieces of shit, you're rapists. Yeah, so
she does, you know, verbally call them out, But it was.

Speaker 2 (01:40:26):
Like after Ariana already got or like Anita already got yeah,
so and Anita left, and then they gave her her
own song, and that's like, I guess kind of what
like timing wise, replaced that other song that we were
talking about earlier, Okay, And I feel like this song
was kind of like I feel like they gave it
to Rita Valentino whatever, because like she is Rita Marino
and like this was her, you know, reprising in the movie.

Speaker 4 (01:40:50):
But I just I thought it was kind of any
time they add a song to a classic musical, it's like,
don't ye don't do that. I was like it's never
very good.

Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know if whose idea this was, Like,
I don't know how this came to be the set
of the twenty twenty one version, but it seemed like
it was maybe someone was giving Rita Marino a chance
to sort of.

Speaker 2 (01:41:13):
Like rectify that moment from but feel redeemed.

Speaker 1 (01:41:16):
Or something by the trauma she experienced in nineteen sixty one.

Speaker 4 (01:41:19):
And it's like a career, like it's a career full circle.
Like I don't object to her big in the movie,
but no, no, no, yeah, but the scene.

Speaker 1 (01:41:26):
Itself, the scene should have been that she Yeah, it
shouldn't have happened so that we still see so much
of the violence on screen like I would.

Speaker 4 (01:41:35):
Yeah, so this sort of connect I know that there's
I've we've been recording for so long. But one of
the things I didn't or that I was like, oh, this,
I guess is a slight difference in the twenty twenty
one version, but again I'm not sure. I did do
some reading on the portrayal of interracial relationships in West

(01:41:57):
Side Story and how there there has been a fair
amount written about that over the years. Oh my god,
I have so many tabs, so many tabs, so many tabs, okay,
or basically just to say that, like it reinforces, you know,
and it makes sense to me in the time it
was written, but like it, you know, reinforces the idea
that interracial relationships are doomed, the point that I honestly

(01:42:19):
hadn't considered that. I want to make sure I'm getting
the shouting out the name of the writer, Olivia Edmunds
Diaz wrote this in bitchflicks dot Com. Great name for
a website, but during a feature they were doing on
how interracial relationships have been portrayed on film. Obviously, the
first issue is this is not actually an interracial relationship

(01:42:42):
we're looking at. It's two white people and one is
in brown face. But she also mentioned like she's like,
I'm a huge fan of west Side's story, like, you know,
I grew up with a lot of love for it.
But she brought up something that hadn't occurred to me,
which is in I feel pretty, she was like, I
internalized that as like Maria has never felt pretty before
because a white man has never called her pretty. It

(01:43:05):
really struck me, I felt, so I was like, yeah, duh,
Jamie and how and yeah that their relationship is portrayed
as you know, just fully doomed again. I feel like
that little wedding mannequin scene, I don't know, like I
think it's sweet. I guess all I was trying to
get at is in the twenty twenty one version, Rita

(01:43:26):
Moreno and Doc being married is like, oh, a successful
interracial relationship exists in this world, and that's nice.

Speaker 2 (01:43:32):
But then it's almost like twisted because when that scene
happens and Anita runs into Rita, she's like, you're a
race trader. She's like, you chose them, and look at
where we're at, look at how they treated me. You
are supporting all of these white boys in your shop
while they abused me. And then she leaves and it's like, yeah,
Rita has her moment, Valentina has her moment after to

(01:43:55):
tell those boys what's up. But it's like not when
it mattered, you know, So it almost still is having
this conversation where it's like, does interracial related works? And
you know it does. Every story is different. You know,
there are white people that care about people of color
like you guys, you know, so it's not like they're
all doomed. But I don't think in this twenty twenty

(01:44:15):
one adaptation they also created that dynamic. I think they
were still like brown people and white people. This doesn't
work right.

Speaker 4 (01:44:22):
It's like it's kind of impossible if you're building it
on Romeo and Juliet to be like, yeah, it's gonna
work out, like if famously it doesn't. Yeah, but but yeah,
I guess just to acknowledge that dynamic as well as
in the same piece talking about sort of the virgin
horror tropes that are present within Maria and Anita, I'll
just quote from the piece really quick. Quote of the

(01:44:45):
two featured Puerto Rican women, Maria is the virgin trope
to Anita's horror trope. Maria's virginity is emphasized to make
her a safe choice for Tony, lest our white night
be swept into a quote unquote dirty Puerto Rican's bed.
One obvious manifestation of this is her white dress for
the dance. Despite Maria's wishes for a shorter red dress
like her role model, an Anita ensures Maria's virginity by

(01:45:06):
keeping the dance dress white and at a respectable length.
Anita's hard work pays off as the white knight. Tony
only has eyes for Maria, who visually stands apart from
the crowd. So again, not something that I feel like
is at the fore, I do at least appreciate that
even in the writing, at least of the movie, it
sounds like Anita is portrayed somewhat differently in the original

(01:45:27):
Broadway production, that I think that both of these characters
are written with love and like there's certainly I mean,
Anita is played with such care and love by Rita
Marina that I feel like it's you can almost kind
of miss that that is like very much a dynamic
that exists.

Speaker 2 (01:45:44):
Yes, I think because Rita is such an incredible actress,
and she plays a role with such a nuance, and
she is honestly like she steals a show. She is
so magnetic you forget that she's supposed to be a whore.
I guess in complex or because like if you are
looking at the movie at large, right, it's like they're
not married. They make it it such a point that

(01:46:05):
like Bernardo and Anita are together and they're not married.

Speaker 4 (01:46:08):
She's talking about having sex after the fight, which I
thought was funny. She's like Bernardo gets so horny after
a brawl.

Speaker 2 (01:46:15):
You're like, sure, and then they show her putting on
lingerie and it shows many scenes. They're the only couple
that like has a kiss and like are romantic to
one another. But it's like, Rita does such a good job,
You're just in love with them. I'm like, I'm just
I'm rooting Bernita and Bernardo. I find their love story compelling.

Speaker 4 (01:46:32):
Best couple in the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:46:33):
Yeah, and then I will say this, Okay, I'm watching
the nineteen sixty one version. I'm like, everyone's ugly except
for Rita Marino. I'm like, wow, everyone is ugly. I'm
watching twenty toy one. I'm like, all the Puerto Ricans
are hot. I'm grateful that in twenty two one they
were like hot people will be in this movie and
every you know, most people were hot. We're not gonna
say ansel Ugger is hot because he sucks and he's canceled.

(01:46:53):
But I will say Bernardo in twenty May one hot hot.
I loved Ariana and Bernardo together and Eat and Bernard together.

Speaker 1 (01:47:02):
Hot hot hot, Yeah, incredible. I want to go back
to the depiction of the Jets and the Sharks real quick. Obviously,
the animosity between them largely stems from the Jets being
racist toward these sharks and the Sharks not standing for
that treatment. But there's also societal prejudice against the Jets

(01:47:25):
because even though they are white Europeans, they are the
children of immigrants from European countries that at the time
were stigmatized in the US. So it's people of Irish,
Polish Italian descent, and obviously the discrimination they experienced pales
in comparison to the racism that the Puerto Rican characters

(01:47:48):
would have experienced, the racism that black and brown people
in general have always faced throughout the US and elsewhere.
But what the movie doesn't seem to acknowledge at all,
or what what I think the twenty twenty one version
could have maybe done more of, but doesn't really seem
to do, is that it's these two feuding groups of

(01:48:09):
poor men, right, and we know that what usually is
happening here is that it's poor white people buying into
the propaganda that the reason that they're poor and miserable
is because of immigrants from other places learning and stealing
their jobs. Again, this is not explicitly said the movie,

(01:48:31):
but This is like the context for why these things
tend to happen, poor white people buying into the propaganda
that the American Empire has been pushing for a very
long time, so that they will target their frustration and
anger against people of color and immigrants instead of fighting
the people they should be fighting, which is obviously the

(01:48:51):
rich ruling class, and that seems to be the basis
of the brawl between the Jets and the Sharks. Movie
doesn't None of the adaptations seem to be well.

Speaker 4 (01:49:06):
I feel like most movies are like not able to
just say a cab and also to some extent, I
do think, like, I don't know, while it would be
awesome to see a multi racial coalition that unites to
ruin the cops, I mean, I think we're seeing attempts
at that right now in Minneapolis, and it's really really
exciting you. But it is very rare and was four

(01:49:28):
nineteen sixty one soft impressed at how the cops, I mean,
the cops are more portrayed as like oafish violent versus
murderous violent in this, which I think is a very hollywoodified,
like cop with a donut kind.

Speaker 5 (01:49:45):
Of deal, especially at that time totally, yeah, for sure,
But I did appreciate how like Officer Shrek an officer
like how America and Officer Krupkey are like numbers that
are kind of in conversation with each other because they're
talking a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:49:59):
About how institutions view these groups respectively. And like Officer
Shrek literally says at one point, I've got a badge.
What do you have? He's like, I know it's a
free country, but actually it's not, and get out of here,
and he kicks he kicks the Sharks out of the
out of the soda shop and hangs out with the
White Gang and says, guys, look, I'm rooting for you.

(01:50:20):
You just got to work with me. And that is
like a dynamic that very very much exists that it
was I was kind of surprised and didn't fully remember.
Is just like pretty explicitly stated basically every single time
that character appears on screen, he is like, I hate
all of you, but I hate the Puerto Rican Gang
much more so. If so, if the White Gang can

(01:50:42):
just like lay low enough, I will not give you trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:50:46):
And yeah, you don't bother me, I won't bother you exactly, which.

Speaker 4 (01:50:50):
Which is like a tacit understanding that exists between a
lot of bodies of power.

Speaker 2 (01:50:55):
I'm watched enough Chicago PD.

Speaker 4 (01:50:57):
Yeah, it's like it is. It is a real thing,
and I don't know, like especially in an over the
top musical based on a Shakespeare play, it was not refreshing,
but it was like, oh, that is like a weirdly
grounded element of this movie. And that, you know, we
see that the Jets are openly racist, like constantly, and
in Officer krup Key you do get some context for

(01:51:20):
like the Jets are aware of how the cops view
them and almost play that to their advantage sometimes to
play to the cops kind of like foolish, like they
they're making all of these racist assumptions about the Sharks,
but with the Jets, they're like, oh, well, their parents
are all at it, like all these classist assumptions of

(01:51:40):
like their parents are. Because I guess I was not
entirely sure. I think I maybe interpreted it more as
like sarcasm from the Jets. Maybe I'm wrong, but that
they're saying like, oh, all of our mothers are junkies,
all of our fathers are drunks, Like we're mentally ill
we should be institutionalized. But I guess I interpreted that

(01:52:01):
as them stating what the cops think of them, not
what they're actually like. And we don't really get much
background for what anyone's home life is like in this
so it's kind of hard to tell. But we know
that like Maria comes from a very loving home, Like,
we're not really led to believe that the struggle has
to do with an abusive household that has to do

(01:52:22):
with poverty and oppression and so get I don't know.
It's not like a great portrayal of cops, but it
wasn't as like reflexively defensive of cops.

Speaker 2 (01:52:33):
It wasn't pro cop, which is good, like inherently good
that it's not pro cop.

Speaker 1 (01:52:39):
Yeah, there are two rivalries in the movie. One is
the Sharks versus the Jets, and the other one is
the Sharks and the Jets versus the cops.

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):
And it's like, you guys, if you guys just used
like ten percent more of your brain, you guys could
have united it on this front. But instead you guys
are like, well, we still got to kill each other
and run away from cops, Like yeah, like.

Speaker 4 (01:53:02):
No, kill the cop, kill that together. Come on.

Speaker 1 (01:53:06):
Speaking of the Officer Krupkey song, which has of a
couple lyrics that are transphobic or queer phobic in some regard,
something like my sister wears a mustache, my brother wears
a dress. Yes, whatever that's supposed to mean, very.

Speaker 4 (01:53:25):
Like of the time transferred where it's like almost like incoherent.

Speaker 2 (01:53:29):
You're like, well, Kitlin, are you getting into that character?
Because I actually don't have a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:53:33):
So I do want to talk about anybodies, Yes we should.

Speaker 2 (01:53:35):
I don't have a lot of context, and I'm actually
I would love to hear what you guys found out
about them, because I'm also lost here.

Speaker 1 (01:53:42):
Here is my take on the matter. So this character
is portrayed quite differently from the nineteen sixty one film
adaptation and the twenty twenty one film adaptation. The way
this character is framed in nineteen sixty one is that
Anybody's is a woman who wants to be a member
of the Jets, and she this is a tomboy tomboy

(01:54:05):
queer coding possibly, but it's nineteen sixty one, so they
can't explicitly say anything.

Speaker 4 (01:54:10):
The other thing was that I saw that like, because
this is not a character that's mapped on a Romeo
Juliet character, So everyone was like, who the hell is this?
It was like said that at one point there was
someone near the top of production for the Broadway show
who I Unfortunately, I'm not a Slate Plus subscriber, so

(01:54:35):
now the article's paywalled. But there is a great essay
in Slate by Isaac Butler that was published about what
we're about to discuss, how West Side Stories Anybody's went
from a tomboy to a trans character, but that this
character's origin appears to be that there was a butch
lesbian who was at the top of production and it
was almost like an acknowledgment for her within the space

(01:54:58):
of the play. But the origin of Anybody's remains somewhat mysterious, and.

Speaker 1 (01:55:04):
The characterization of the character is quite vague in the
nineteen sixty one movie. Now in the twenty twenty one version,
Anybody's is more explicitly identified as gender queer trans Mask,
played by an actor named Iris Manas who is non

(01:55:24):
binary and trans Mask. There's a particular scene in the
twenty twenty one version where the Jets have been arrested
and they're waiting at whatever like the precinct to get booked,
and they're harassing anybody's. One character in particular, I think
it's the action care Again, I lose track of almost everybody,

(01:55:46):
but one character in particular is harassing anybody's in a
very queer phobic way, saying like, you're a freak, you're
a girl, Stop pretending to be somebody that you're not.
And then anybody's responds repeating several times, I'm not a girl.
I'm not a girl. I swear to God, I'm not
a girl, implying that this is a trans masque character.

(01:56:07):
And I feel like it was handled in a way
that felt appropriate for the time that this movie was set.
You know, it's not like they're using like super modern language.

Speaker 4 (01:56:16):
Yeah, did you have to say super Mario sup super
Mario language? Oh that they would, But no, like they weren't.

Speaker 1 (01:56:25):
Using, you know, the modern language and nuance that we
have to discuss gender and gender queerness because this is
set in the nineteen fifties. The character does have a
small arc which you see both in both versions, where
at some point toward the end, anybody's comes in and
gives the jets a helpful piece of information and then

(01:56:48):
the character responds by saying like you done good, buddy boy, Yeah,
which carries more meaning. I think in the twenty twenty
one version, where a character is saying, like, I see you,
it's not.

Speaker 4 (01:57:00):
A girl as a mask person.

Speaker 1 (01:57:02):
Yeah, I don't think it comes from the same character
who was harassing anybody's earlier. Did it need to That's
up for debate, But because.

Speaker 2 (01:57:12):
They all kind of were harassing them though, so it's like, yeah,
you know, I don't think it matters which character comes from,
because it's like the group itself was being repatful and
this was like the group accepting them.

Speaker 1 (01:57:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:57:26):
Well, and another element of that character. And I'm only
speaking to the sixty one version that I thought was
I guess like what, Yes, particularly when the when the
character was being framed more as a tomboy and possibly
queer coded, is that even though you saw how anybody's

(01:57:46):
was struggling and was being constantly dismissed within this hyper
masculine group and you feel for them, they are also
not allied with a woman as she's being assaulted. They are,
I think, as we see happen all the time, allying
with whiteness before other women and before they ally with
women of color. And I don't know how like intentional

(01:58:09):
that was, because anybody's is very much in the room
participating in the harassment and assault of Anita in the
sixty one version, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:58:18):
And I think in the twenty nine one ver I
can't remember. Honestly, I can't remember either, because they did
in the twenty one one version, as a way to
like create women's solidarity, they did like kind of harass
the jets women's too and like force them out of
the room, and they were like you get out of here,
and the women were like, no, don't hurt her, don't
hurt her.

Speaker 1 (01:58:38):
And I would go a little.

Speaker 2 (01:58:39):
Random because you were like, well, in reality, I actually
don't believe you guys would.

Speaker 4 (01:58:43):
In nineteen fifty with this feel like I just yeah,
I don't know. Sometimes I again, that's I think it's
a it's a sort of a thing that we're trying
to figure out culturally of like, yeah, women can be wrong,
like you know, and in fact are constantly, and it's
okay to show that up. It's not misogynous to show
a woman being hateful or wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:59:03):
Yeah, because it was like she was hateful to Anita
up until the moment they started getting violent.

Speaker 4 (01:59:07):
And then all of a sudden it was like, wait,
I was like, when you're gonna hurt a woman, I
can't just like spit on her and color spick.

Speaker 2 (01:59:12):
It's like and you're like, wait, well, if you were
willing to call her spick, then you probably.

Speaker 4 (01:59:17):
Put on the pink pussy hat.

Speaker 2 (01:59:19):
H Wait a second, No, You're like like, I don't
think you would care if she's getting hurt if you
were willing to call her a slur.

Speaker 4 (01:59:25):
And obviously it's like I'm not encouraging like hate crimes
between women to be shown on screen, but I do
think that sometimes it feels a little like defensive and
dishonest too, especially when it's like specifically being like a
white woman in this situation would do the right thing,
because you know that's that.

Speaker 1 (01:59:44):
Is historically usually not true.

Speaker 4 (01:59:48):
It really is not the sure thing that it's often
presented as. Yeah, yeah, I think is there there's stuff
that that y'all wanted to touch on? I was like,
this is I think I've gone through everything in my
gigantic encyclopedia.

Speaker 2 (02:00:03):
Yeah, I'm like, looking at my notes, I feel pretty thorough.

Speaker 1 (02:00:07):
The last thing I want in This doesn't need to
be a long conversation or anything, but I do want
to point out the misogyny. I mean, we've already been
talking about it, but like just the misogyny that the
men from both groups displayed toward the women. I feel
like it's focused on a little bit more with Bernardo

(02:00:29):
where there's a part where he's talking to Anita and
she's like, choose between me or the war council meeting,
and he says something like back home, women knew their place.
Or like with Maria again, Bernardo, he's being protective. He's

(02:00:50):
being perhaps overprotective of Maria. She's feeling controlled by him,
and he says something like, well, when you're old and
married and have five kids, you can tell me what
to do, but right now it's the other way around.

Speaker 2 (02:01:05):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (02:01:06):
And Anita steps in and she's like, well, you know,
she's free to do whatever she wants because this is
America where everyone is free.

Speaker 2 (02:01:14):
Which is a little bit what I was talking about earlier,
where it's like, I do think there's this idea. I
mean I found that very truthful in a way where
there is this ingrained, really toxic machismo even to this
day in Puerto Rico, that we're fighting as women in
Puerto Rico, that we do not have time to get
into all the politics of that. But femicide is still

(02:01:35):
very high in Puerto Rico. A lot of Puerto Rican
men who are not working on themselves in liberation of
Puerto Rico and things like that, like they are harming women.
And I don't think Bernardo was harming the women in
his life, but I don't think what he said is
inaccurate to a family dynamic of a Puerto Rican family.

Speaker 1 (02:01:56):
Sure, right, because multiple things can be true. These characters
can be the recipient of prejudice and racism, and then
they can also turn oppression on to the people around them.

Speaker 4 (02:02:09):
And that like there's very few cultures that patriarchal abuse
and control is not a facet of right.

Speaker 1 (02:02:16):
And worth noting that this happens with white Americans all
the time is that they will use that as an excuse.
They will be like, well, this group of people are
really horrible to women, or they're really horrible to gay people,
and that's why it's okay to genocide it like the.

Speaker 2 (02:02:30):
Israel playbook, Yeah no literally, and it's like, yeah, well
that doesn't mean you deserve to be prejudice towards everybody.
And it's also like, well look in the mirror.

Speaker 4 (02:02:37):
Babe, Like you're like, you would also kill thee Like
what do you talk.

Speaker 2 (02:02:42):
It's like, we saw the fight scene and they just
shoved all the women out of the room and basically
assaulted them too. So it's like, right, you guys are
being just as bad to women.

Speaker 1 (02:02:50):
The hypocrisy is staggering.

Speaker 4 (02:02:53):
They're like, you're like, Okay, we get it, everyone hates women.
Next like it's yeah, uh, yeah, I don't know. Yeah,
I've If the movie was trying to make me dislike Bernardo,
I would say, like I've found him, like, you know,
he was being overly controlling, and like I understand as

(02:03:14):
a teenager why you would be frustrated with him. But context,
like in the context of the fact that Natalie would is,
first of all, it's supposed to be perto Rican, supposed
to be a teenager, and like you said earlier, Rebecca
is very new to a country that Bernardo is kind
of seeing right through the promise of the American dream
and doesn't want his sister's optimism and naivete taken advantage

(02:03:37):
of which it is like, they can't make me hate Bernardo. Yeah, right, well,
and this is.

Speaker 1 (02:03:43):
I think contextualized a little bit more in the twenty
twenty one version, where it seems to be pretty widely
known that the reason Tony is no longer a member
of the Jets is because he went to prison for
some time for beating and nearly killing a brown person.

Speaker 4 (02:04:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:04:03):
Oh, the Jets had already gotten to a fight before.
They had had a rumble, maybe not with the Sharks specifically,
but like they had a different a different gang. Yeah,
and they he beat a man to death. And then
in this twenty twenty one version, in the rumble, he
almost beats Bernardo to death, but then Bernardo still ends
up dying by knife instead, right right, right right, So,

(02:04:27):
but the Jets had it'd be like stop right.

Speaker 1 (02:04:30):
So the backstory that like Tony almost killed a non
white person seems to be something that like everyone knows about,
and so Bernardo is like he like, this man is racist. Yeah,
he is violent toward people who look like us. Maria,
stay away from him.

Speaker 2 (02:04:49):
And I think Bernardo even brings up in the twenty
twenty one version where he's like, hey, like you went
to prison, and now you think you're cool with the
Puerto Ricans because you were in prison with us. Kind
of something to that nature in the rumble when they
were like head to head and like Bernardo was like
going at him and was trying to like provoke him,
I guess, but it was like he's not wrong. It's like, oh,

(02:05:10):
you went to prison and you like became reformed. I guess,
like now you're not racist, Like Bernard didn't believe that.

Speaker 4 (02:05:16):
Well, yeah, it's just like that also implies that prison works. Yeah, okay,
like r yeah, I didn't know that was an adjustment
for twenty twenty one. I mean it sounds like twenty
twenty one was an attempt.

Speaker 1 (02:05:31):
And it was an attempt. Yeah, and it was not
a perfect attempt.

Speaker 4 (02:05:35):
But I gotta say I'm not I have I haven't
been really effectively sold of like I gotta run, I
gotta run.

Speaker 1 (02:05:41):
And see this thing crawl, don't walk.

Speaker 2 (02:05:44):
Well, I think there were some scenes that were great,
but I do think there was a lot left to
be desired. And I think a huge eye sore of
it is the ansel ugward of it all, because it's
like you can't be like we're trying to like fix
the racism of this movie and fix all these things
with this movie. And then high and abuse.

Speaker 4 (02:06:00):
Yeah yeah, and then I do remember the like whough
the whole like Rachel Zegler, as she so often is
being like, how dare you speak to this man and
press appearances? And I was like, that is not her
call to make and she's a kid, Like she's being
forced to make appearances with a predator, which question the
system and not the teenage girl for once.

Speaker 2 (02:06:22):
With the predator situation, I'm like, you guys, hired a
kid and he is like twenty eight. It's like we
couldn't have fixed that either. We couldn't have hired another kid.

Speaker 4 (02:06:31):
I can't. I just can't. The Yeah, I mean, we
still live in hell, it's just a different now.

Speaker 1 (02:06:39):
But yeah, that was pretty much all I had for me.

Speaker 4 (02:06:42):
Oh my god, I mean we could keep going, like
I know.

Speaker 2 (02:06:45):
I'm like again, but we've been on long enough.

Speaker 4 (02:06:48):
Yeah, yes, I think we need to liberate ourselves from.

Speaker 1 (02:06:51):
From my last thing, it's a really quick, really silly one.
But I was going to propose an alternate title for
the movie, which is Shark Tale, perhaps.

Speaker 4 (02:07:02):
Sharks Sharks Tail Sharkstail, A shark's tail, an extremely sharkstail movie.

Speaker 1 (02:07:08):
It's an extremely sharky movie.

Speaker 4 (02:07:10):
Wow, I love it. Thank you perfect no notes? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:07:14):
Great. Well that brings us to the Bechdel Test.

Speaker 2 (02:07:16):
Oh god, I know I was like, shit, I forgot
about this part.

Speaker 4 (02:07:20):
Wait, come on, okay, I hate we were. I will
say we were all on it today except for the podcast.
Let's see. I think that the mood. Okay, I'm gonna
I'm gonna go to Bechdel Test dot com. We forgot
to do.

Speaker 2 (02:07:34):
I don't think they do.

Speaker 1 (02:07:35):
Here's what I've gathered. Maria and Anita. They talk about
a dress.

Speaker 4 (02:07:39):
I actually do think that the dress, even though it
is sort of laying out the Madonna horror dynamics between them. Uh,
the dress conversation isn't a passing conversation. It is like
supposed to be telling us how we are perceiving Maria.
She wants to grow up, but she's not going to
be allowed to grow up. She still has to wear
this girlish white dress. I feel like that is a

(02:08:00):
like significant enough yeah to warrant a pass. It is
not a great pass. Yeah, I think it is a pass.

Speaker 1 (02:08:07):
No, because even like the song where the where Maria's
singing about feeling pretty and all of her friends are there,
and almost everything is still in the context of like,
I feel pretty because a white man told me I'm pretty,
or or just like very explicit conversations about either Tony
or Bernardo. But yeah, I think there are at least

(02:08:30):
a few brief exchanges where yeah, you could say it passes.
But what about the Bechdel cast nipple scale where we
write the movie on a scale of zero to five
nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens
uh Oh, I don't know. It's not a high number,

(02:08:52):
but I do know that a lot of people connected
with this movie because it was sort of all the
representation that there was for the time. I know that
this movie. Both adaptations had performances won from Rita Moreno
as Anita that won her an Academy Award. Also shout

(02:09:13):
out to her because she has egotted.

Speaker 4 (02:09:15):
Yes, one of the few, one of the few.

Speaker 1 (02:09:17):
But Rita Mareno was the first Latina actress ever to
win an Oscar and then Ariana Debos, who also won
for playing Anita, was the first Afro Latina actor to
win an Oscar as well as the first openly queer
woman of color to win an Academy Award for acting.

Speaker 4 (02:09:37):
Which is amazing and also that should be rewarded in
their subsequent careers precisely.

Speaker 1 (02:09:44):
So, you know, this is a groundbreaking movie in some ways,
but obviously, as we've talked about, still relied on many stereotypes.
The nuances that could have been present in discussions about
and race and all the other things that the movie
examines just doesn't do it well because it was conceived

(02:10:08):
of by white, non Puerto Rican Americans, so didn't really
hit the mark. I'm going to give it one nipple.

Speaker 4 (02:10:18):
With all of that in mind, Yeah, I guess I'll
go one and a half for no reason at all.
I would just just because I know we have to
wrap up. I'll go one and a half. I will
give one to Rita Moreno, and I will give the
other half to Cheta Rivera.

Speaker 2 (02:10:36):
Yeah, Sleigh, I will give it also one and a
half nipples, because as much as I were really fond
of the movie, revisiting it, I do think the nineteen
sixty one version, you know, still represents women pretty poorly.
I wish all the best for ridom Marino because she
did not deserve all that bullshit, and all my nipples

(02:10:57):
go to Riada Mareno.

Speaker 4 (02:10:58):
Yes of luck to her and her recovering from Marlon
brand having section. Ultimately, this was about Marlon Branda's penis somehow.
I mean, it really is.

Speaker 2 (02:11:12):
And that is a conversation I want to have with
you guys offline. I will I can explain this please so.

Speaker 1 (02:11:18):
Well, Becca, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2 (02:11:20):
Yes, thanks for having me.

Speaker 4 (02:11:22):
Yes, congratulations on the new show. We're so excited.

Speaker 1 (02:11:25):
Where can people listen? Plug away?

Speaker 2 (02:11:28):
My first episode will be out February third, past Tuesday,
so listen, go check it out. This first episode is
like very endearing to me because it's like a very
intimate look at my life and my identity and like
why I decided to do this project, Why how I
came to be? Why am I questioning about my Puerto ricanness?

(02:11:48):
So yeah, check it out. Give me feedback. If you
are Puerto Rican, I want to hear from you. Email
us at Welcome to a Barrio at gmail dot com.
You can find me on all platforms. You listen to podcast.
You can follow her in Instagram at Welcome to Our Boudio.
My Instagram is bex p e ccs Ramos.

Speaker 1 (02:12:05):
And yeahy come back any time.

Speaker 4 (02:12:08):
Thank you so much for returning. I love when we
have a two time guest and the movies could not
be more different. So he has another curve ball.

Speaker 2 (02:12:16):
Next time I am high low Baby, I will also
watch Horny, but also give you very thoughtful takes on
Puerto Rican identity.

Speaker 4 (02:12:26):
Yes, she can do it all. And with that we
are we are going to stand in the middle of
a basketball court and really reflect on the events of
the last three hours. Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is
a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by Me, Jamie

(02:12:48):
Loftus and.

Speaker 1 (02:12:49):
Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

Speaker 4 (02:12:53):
And edited by Caitlyn Durrante.

Speaker 1 (02:12:55):
Ever heard of Them? That's me and our logo and
merch and all of our artwork in fact are designed
by Jamie Loftus, Ever heard of her?

Speaker 4 (02:13:05):
Oh my God? And our theme song, by the way,
was composed by Mike Kaplan.

Speaker 1 (02:13:09):
With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

Speaker 4 (02:13:12):
Iconic and especial thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo.

Speaker 1 (02:13:17):
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