Coach Gottlieb explains how Michigan’s hoops title is a trickle down result of B1G Football financial dominance, how Rory’s first Master’s win changed his ‘choker’ image.]
Then, he’s joined by former NBA Champion and former UNC All-American Justin Jackson reacts to Hubert Davis’ firing, if Michael Malone is a personality fit in Chapel Hill, and year one expectations.
]Finally, 7-time MLB All-Star Matt Holliday discusses the Pirates and 19 yo budding star Konnor Griffin agreeing to a 9-year $140 million contract, if he would have taken the deal at 19, and his early MLB takes less than a month into the season.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
What up, that's the Doug Gottlieb Show. So I was
watching the Frozen Four. I just I like the alliteration
of Frozen four and how it works with Final four
and how it's just after the Final Four. Oh wait,
they did kind of blatantly rip off the Frozen four
from the Final Four. But whatever, it works. And I
was watching the Bajors losing Ascuse, not the Badgers. The
(00:28):
Wolverines lose in double overtime to the Pioneers of Denver, right,
and Denver has always been a first class hockey program.
One of the one of the key elements to why
their basketball program has struggled at times to get off
the ground is because they do put a lot of
money into hockey. It's super important to the school. But
(00:49):
if you want to know why basketball won the national
championship and why hockey is in the Final Four, the
reason is the other side of the street. I know
that it's embarrassing what happened to Michigan football after the season.
Understand it. Shron Moore and all of that marital issues,
(01:12):
if you will, caused his ouster, and I honestly think
they killed it with Kyle Witningham, who's a great football
coach that was always kind of blocked in by the
fact that he was at Utah. Like, man, what would
Kyle witting him be like if he was at one
of the elite schools in the country. Well, now he is.
Now he has unlimited resources, although he's hired at kind
(01:32):
of an awkward time right and under awkward situation. And
remember he was essentially shown the door at Utah despite
the fact that he's he wasn't there most successful in
a short period of time. That was Urban Meyer is
only there for a year, but he was the most
successful or a long period of time in a much
harder league in the Big twelve, and he was great
(01:54):
in the Pac twelve when they're there as well. But
if you want to know why hockey is good football,
if you want to know why basketball is good playing football,
many times people have started to post things on the internet.
You can do it with state schools in regards to
the revenue generated and the cost of each sport. And
(02:16):
what you'll see is in the black, that's in the positive.
There's usually only two sports, sometimes only one, sometimes there's
two or three. You know, you can make money at
the right school at rest On wrestling, you can make
money sometimes in hockey. Hockey's expensive. I remember a lot
of players you have to have, you know, your own rink,
(02:37):
that upkeep is expensive. The travel is expensive because the
number of people, the number of teams is not great,
and so the travel then is also expensive. But nonetheless
usually the only one that the only two that we
know are making money. Your men's basketball and football. And
(02:58):
men's basketball can make anywhere from couple hundred thousand dollars
to several million dollars. But with college football you can
make Again, this is this is not net this is
gross one hundred and fift two hundred million dollars in
a year. That's not even counting your TV rights. So
(03:18):
the reason Michigan and obviously the Big Ten we've talked to,
I've talked about this and other outlets. The reason the
Big Ten has now finally won a national championship in
basketball is that they're finally able to do what many
people around the country believe other conferences or teams were
doing right, and that's that compensating players above that of
(03:40):
a scholarship. Do I think that back in the day,
or even going back ten years ago, the SEC was
paying college basketball players two three four million dollars per position. No,
but they were definitely sweetened in the pot. I don't
know it for a fact, but very confident that I
(04:04):
could probably find a player or two to say, yeah,
I got a couple hundred grand to go to this school.
And it's not just the SEC and the ACC had teams.
The Big twelve D teams, the PAC twelve D teams,
the Mountain and West probably had teams. There was always
a team in each league that everybody's like they have
a different grant and aid program. The Big Ten, and
this is from twenty plus years of working in television,
(04:26):
is the gold standard, the gold standard for TV rights deals.
And you may think to yourself, wait, I thought it
was the SEC because they won all those football championships. Again,
why ask yourself that question? And it is not an
even playing field between the Big ten in the horizon,
between the Big ten in the valley, but between the
(04:48):
Big Ten, the SEC, the ACC, and the Big twelve,
it's technically an even playing field. You can pay anybody
whatever you want to pay them. The Big ten has
always been the gold stand in TV negotiations and their
rights deals because you have the biggest alumni bases. Right,
All the schools are at a higher level academically, so
(05:11):
they have law schools, medical schools, obviously business schools. In
other words, you have real professionals coming out of those
schools who make real money and real investments, and then
they have real donation dollars. Plus there's more of them
than there are other schools. And I know Texas is
a gigantic school, but Mississippi is not, doesn't have as
(05:36):
big a donation base. It's just a numbers game. Kansas
is not Ohio State. Right, you're talking about the University
of Minnesota fifty plus thousand students. You can't compete with
that when you're at Iowa State. Different school, different sort
of alumni base, so different sort of revenue generated. But
(05:59):
also in the world of nil where everything comes from
donated money, it's not just that you have bigger fan bases,
bigger alumni bases, and those schools all have law schools
and medical schools and you're producing six figure earners the
second they get out of college. It's more to it
that they're in major markets where the not just the
(06:23):
donation dollars, but also the marketing dollars from real fortune
five hundred companies Minnesota is in Minneapolis, huge and growing city. Columbus,
huge and growing city. Indiana. Purdue, although they're not in Indianapolis,
they are an hour away on each side of Indianapolis,
big growing city where plenty of people from the Big
(06:45):
Ten flock to. So any of those corporations that are
tied to those schools, they fund the athletes with real
nil dollars. Penn State obviously out in the middle of nowhere,
but it is the state University of Pennsylvania. It does
have like one hundred thousand students, huge gigantic fan base.
They make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year
off their home football games. They're printing money. The rest
(07:06):
of their athletic department can be really well supported. The
point is that it's the golden rule. Is he who
has the gold rules? And right now, if you look
across college sports, the Big Ten rules. You know, I
was watching Rory at the Masters and leading here on
(07:29):
the second day at the time of the recording of
this podcast, and I was thinking to myself, you know,
last year when he won, he had the tears, and
obviously there's so much that goes into it. And he's
had so many opportunities previously at the Masters where he
choked it away. And there's this weird thing in sports,
(07:52):
and I don't know if it's this way in life
where once you get over kind of the hump of it,
like you can be seen as a guy who chokes,
But then once you get over the choking and you
accomplish it, you don't choke anymore. Michael Jordan's a perfect example.
He wasn't a choker, but Michael Jordan's teams kept bumping
(08:12):
into the Eastern Conference Finals ceiling And the issue with
Jordan was he didn't trust his teammates and he tried
to do it all himself, and the Detroit Pistons would
put him on the floor right try and punish him
because they were like daring him to pass to his teammates.
So with different teammates as well as a different coaching staff,
(08:35):
that gave him space and a knowledge of where player
is going to be. Remember when he won his first
NBA Championship against the LA Lakers. Michael Jordan average eleven
assists a game in the NBA Finals in nineteen ninety one.
If you predate nineteen ninety one, you would have said
that Jordan couldn't win the big one. Now, the one
(08:56):
thing that people would fall back on is, well, he
won the big one in college. Yeah, he hit a
shot to win an NCAA championship as a freshman. He
was open, but it wasn't like he carried North Carolina
and the next two years as one of the elite
players in the country, they didn't win anything. And this
is from the ultimate Michael Jordan defender and fan and
(09:17):
somebody who will fight to the death and says he's
the greatest player I've ever seen play basketball. But he
was seen as a guy who couldn't win the big
game in the NBA until he did, and then once
he did, it didn't seem like he ever lost the
big game. Now, his year back against the Magic, I
don't think he was sharp, and the Magic beat him
(09:39):
and all they got was to the Eastern Conference finals.
But outside of that, you're talking about six NBA Finals
and six NBA Finals wins in seven seasons, either fully
or partially played. That's amazing. Lebron James still catches crap
over how he played against the Dallas Mavericks in his
first second actually NBA Finals Series, right, he didn't play
(10:00):
good again, he didn't play well against the Spurs, but
we gave him pass because well, they didn't have the
surrounding cast and he did have the surrounding cast with
the Miami heat, and he played poorly and he was
seen as a joker. Once he got over that and
once they finally won. Now we look at Lebron completely differently.
That's how you have to look at Rory. You could
(10:22):
take a stop shot of Rory before he won at
Augusta and say he could do everything but win the tournament,
which by pro Golfer's estimation is the biggest of the majors,
right like US Open generally the hardest, the Open Championship.
(10:42):
I mean, listen, it's just a different style of golf.
Links golf in England in Ireland is just different, right,
and then the PGA Championship. Some of it's have been
helped by the move date wise and then course setup
wise has been made more difficult at times. US Open
is probably the ultimate challenge of golf, but the one
that people want to win the most is the Masters.
(11:04):
And once he's won it, does he look completely different
to anybody else. And that's what happens, at least in sports,
and I'm guessing in life, when you finally get over
that hump, that's what when they talk about getting over
the hump, Get over the hump. And now there's a
different swagger. Now there's a different confidence. Now there's different air.
Now there's a different feel to the entire tournament because
(11:25):
of it. He's an NBA champion, and he was an
NCAA champion in seventeen with North Carolina. That became a
first round draft pick. And they see he's got us.
If you're watching us on the digital feed, it's got
the jersey in the background, right, he got Carolina Blue
forty four. I guess was my number, but nobody knows
(11:46):
that Carolina because it's Justin Jackson's number. And he was
all American and he joins us. Now on the Doug
Gottlieb Show, what was first? What was your reaction to
them firing Hubert.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Reaction? I think there was it was. It was a
complex reaction from the standpoint of, like, I never want
to see anybody get fired. I understand how that goes.
It's it's the business things like that. But me and
me and HD had a lot of memories going back
to whenever I played in North Carolina. And the tough
part is is the seasons that he had, the five
(12:21):
years that he had at that school. If he was
in any other school, maybe other than a few others,
they would have been successful seasons. And you know, obviously
it's the nature of the business and it's really really unfortunate.
But I think that was my initial was like, man,
I don't want to see HD go from that perspective.
And I've always said I've never had a hand or
(12:42):
I really haven't even been in any kind of rooms
with decision making, right like I've I I like to
stay out the way anyways. But you know, for them
making the decision, you know, obviously there were things that
they felt, you know, weren't up to the standard of
North Carolina basketball. And so now, you know, we just
try to, you know, figure out what's next. And obviously
(13:02):
Mike Malone, Michael Malone's is the next guy in charge.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Okay, so what do you think, uh, Mike Malone, you
played in the league, he won an NBA championship. What's
your sense of how well he fits Carolina? How well
he fits Carolina in twenty twenty six, twenty seven beyond.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I think when you look at, you know, just the
basketball perspective, I think the highre's great. Right like you said,
he's NBA champion. Everything you hear about him is that
he works extremely hard. X's and o's. He's a genius
when it comes to basketball. So from that perspective, I'm
not worried at all, and I've said it since that
(13:42):
since you know, the hiring happened, if there are the
right people set up around him to help with the
transition from the NBA to college, because there's no there's
no hiding the fact that they're to totally different games.
The NBA is totally different than what college is, especially
now when you talk about transfer, portal, recruiting, all that
sort of stuff. But if the right people around him
(14:06):
that have been around the landscape, have been around college basketball,
have certain connections. I know I saw that, you know,
the associate head coach that he brought in, Chucky Martin
has all types of connections when it comes to international whatever.
So if the right people are around him, then I love,
I absolutely love the higher you know, and then you
(14:27):
throw the aspect if the money is there. I love
the higher because then when coaching comes into play, I
think Michael Malone is going to be one of the
best ones in college basketball when it comes just purely
coaching basketball. So if all of that is set up right,
which I think it will be, especially with the momentum
that North Carolina has now, with the higher, I think
(14:48):
I think it's a great higher.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
It's really interesting, right, I would agree with you, and like,
let's kind of get cut the brass tacks, right. Coaching
ball is coaching ball. And though I obviously the skill
level of the NBA is so different, it's just so different.
Like dudes just don't miss open shots in the bros
as you know, right, that's the difference. If they're open,
they're making it period stop. My thing would be, how
(15:14):
are they going to his ability? I'm not questioning his
ability to evaluate, but evaluating a college player is different
than evaluating an NBA player and evaluating if you Chuck
Martin comes over from Arkansas, right, Evaluating for John Caliperry
and what John cali Perry wants when you've never worked
(15:34):
with Mike Malone is really really hard. And I do
think that NBA coaches it's the best coach in the
world because they're coaching. It's so many more possessions, and
the other coach is so much better and so much
better prepared because you have a whole you know, you
have a whole galley of guys that have all the information,
(15:55):
all the data, and so in terms of coaching ball,
it's great. I do think you also everywhere he's been,
when he's Sacramento and with the Nuggets, he seemed to
have a good relationship with guys. Relationships with college players
is different, right though they're making money now and real
money now. I'm still eighteen, nineteen, twenty years old, so
(16:16):
it's different. I just think it'll probably take you a
year to adjust. Is that fair. It's a little bit
like leveling up to the NBA. It takes you a
year to adjust, and I wonder what that does for momentum.
I think the same thing for Belichick with the football program, Like,
did you really think with eighty five new guys there
(16:36):
were going to be any good this year? No, it's
a totally different sport. But he does know the sport,
so he'll figure it out. It just takes a minute.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I mean, I don't think any coach when you bring
him in, I don't think Duke with John Shire necessarily
was hey final four first year, that's our expectations right now.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
And he was there. He was there, was yes.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Right, And so I don't I think it's I think
it's not fair expectations to put on any new coach
to say, hey, if you don't make it to Elite
eight in your first year, then you know that's considered
a failure.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I think there's going there. It's it's inevitable that there's
going to be a transition. That's just that's the part
of it. But when I look at like, for instance,
when I and you can't read too much into press conferences, right,
like I've seen you know, people say things and do
things whatever. But like some of the words what stood
out to me through his press conference, some of the
words that he said, it reminded me a lot of
(17:33):
when I was in North Carolina with Coach Williams, right,
And I think Coach Williams is a guy who, if
he stays true to what he's saying, can be somebody
to help him with that transition. Now, when it comes
to the talent scouting. I think that's a whole nother conversation,
right because, in my opinion, what is Michael Malone's not
(17:54):
going to know the players that were legit that are
in the transfer portal this year, right, Like that's just
you can't expect him to he hasn't been in the space,
but the people around him should be able to know, right,
Like whoever it is that's around him, whether it's Jim
Tann or the GM, whether it's Chuck Martin.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Do you do you think let me let me ask
you this though, do you think it? Like, here's the
one thing in the portal that gets missing is you
got to know the kid. You got to know the
right like you just do because you put it they're
going to play for Carolina. Yeah, they're gonna make seven figures.
(18:31):
And like obviously we all talked about like what would
have been like what would I have been worth? What
would you have gotten? You know, like you would have
come back to school after win a national championship and
you would have made probably three four million dollars a year, right,
but how would you have handled that in college? If
you're making three million dollars a year, right, you're not.
It's like college is not designed for that. It's just not.
(18:53):
So it's really hard to So you got to know
the kid because you got to know, all right, I'm
gonna give him this bag and then I'm gonna expecting
to perform at a higher level than he's ever performed
before for a better coach. But you're playing at the
very highest level of college basketball, and we don't know
how he reacts when he already has because we'd like
to think, well, you maintain the level of hunger and
desire it took you to get there, but doesn't always
(19:13):
work that way.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, I mean, heck, you would know more on that
side of things as far as what it's like trying
to within a few weeks trying to build a relationship
with kids and players and try to figure out they fit.
I just think what I've seen over the last two years,
the money is always at the forefront of the conversation, right,
(19:38):
And the money for me, you can bring in Michael Malone,
you can bring in guys that are the top recruiters
in college basketball. If you don't have the money, then
you're not going to bring in any talent anyways. So
the money is first and foremost. And then I think
it's tough because maybe I'm biased. But you talk about
you talk about the North Carolina brand. Now you talk
(20:00):
about a Michael Malone NBA champion. Right, for me, if
I'm a player, if I'm a college player, and okay,
I'm getting the money that I think I deserve. Now,
it's between North Carolina and it's between.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Duke whoever? Right, Like, no, you're competing. You're gonna have
to compete with Illinois Duke Michigan UCLA, right right, and
you And the argument is, hey, it's Carolina and it's
an NBA championship head coach, Yes, beat that one.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah. And so I think for me, if I'm a player, now, obviously,
these players nowadays are probably totally different than I was
because I didn't have to deal with the NIOL and
all this sort of stuff. But if I'm a player,
I'm looking at how can I get to the next level? Right,
I'm getting this money now, but how do I get
to the next level? And this guy's been there and
he's done it, and he's proven that he can take
(20:51):
players early on and turn them into guys that can
go and get really really paid, right, And so I
think for me that's something that gives a little bit
more of an edge that will help with the transition
of not really knowing the guys. But at the end
of the day, I think relationships are huge too, So
you know, I think it's still having people around that
(21:13):
have those relationship with AAU coaches if it's high school kids,
or have them with the agents and things like that.
So hopefully they have those people set in place.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
How difficult is it, as somebody who played for HD,
granted he wasn't a head coach for the Carolina family,
to have an outsider be your head coach.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I wouldn't say it's necessarily difficult. It's stinks seeing him
go right as the person that he is. It's stink's
not seeing a coach Williams at the helm right like that,
like that's you get so accustomed to seeing that. But
when you think about the program, like as far as
where you want it to be, as long as it's
(21:57):
in good hands for me, then that I'm good with it,
right And I think another thing that has helped the
former players with this hire is that they're still keeping
guys that have been within the Carolina family right within
the program, and so, you know, I think it was
when you look at the higher itself. When it comes
to that aspect, I think this was the perfect route.
(22:19):
You bring somebody in that's hasn't been in college basketball,
hasn't been around North Carolina, and now you kind of
have to keep some people that have been around, right like,
so it helps with the former players still coming back
being involved things like that. So from that perspective, I
like the fact that they're keeping all of you know,
(22:40):
or the people that they have around that was there
when I was there and have been there for the
you know, over the past few years and things like that.
So as long as the program has headed in the
right direction and being where it's supposed to be, then
I don't think really any former player would necessarily be
upset that it's outside the quote unquote family.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Hey man, your studs a player. You're getting really really
good at this, so we got to have you on
more often in the meantime. Thanks so much for joining me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I appreciate you for having me. Man.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
All right, let's welcome in seven time All Star, four
times someone Silver Slugger Matt Holliday. If you were nineteen
when you made the bigs. Somebody throws one hundred and
forty million in front of you and you're like, well,
if I wait a couple of years, it can be
seven one hundred million, but there's no promises. Or I
signed up one hundred and forty million for nine years,
which does take me out of that first big swing.
(23:35):
Would you have signed it like Connor Griffin did, or
would you have waited to your arbitration eligible? What do
you do?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yeah, I mean that's a tough one. I mean, look,
I think, I mean, I mean, I just I guess.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
I probably would have taken it, but you know what
the advice of I mean, you have to ask for advice,
and that's why you have agents and you have a family,
and you ask people around you.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
And then I think you look at the talent.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
I mean, he's incredibly talented, but nothing's guaranteed, uh, from
health to performance. I mean he's not played, uh, he's
he's got no track in the major leagues yet. I mean,
he looks like he's going to be a superstar, but
there's no guarantees. I mean, the major leagues is very difficult.
So I would say I would have probably taken it,
(24:25):
but it would have been again, I think that that's
right in that range. I think is a good offer
by the Pirates because I think that is very tempting
for a talent like that, and I think that's probably
what a lot of these teams are doing that. I
think you've seen that a lot, uh where these guys
are uh. These teams are offering money to their up
and coming superstars looking for cost certainty, and you know,
(24:47):
they potentially the Pirates will have one of the best
players in the league for for ten more years, and
that's you know, I guess that's that's a smart play.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Biggest surprise so far the season.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
I think the Mariners haven't played well.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
I think a lot of people picked them to to
probably you know, get to the playoffs for the World Series.
I think that the Al East has been not great.
I think a lot of you know, it's still early,
but I think the Yankees have a pretty good record,
but the rest of the teams are right.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Around five hundred or below.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
The Red Sox have been bad, so I'd say the
Al East not not performing too to their standards. But
I think a lot of teams, really I think it's
been There's a lot of teams that we thought coming in,
like the Phillies and and and maybe even the Giants.
Padres a lot of teams that we thought were going
(25:46):
to be good. They have not got off the great starts.
Which again it's it's one hundred and sixty two games,
so you don't want to overreact. But I think I'd
probably just say that the teams that we expected to
be really good have have not looked great early.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Cal Rawley's the the biggest name of that. Concidering the
year that he had last year, is there anything wrong
with his swing?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
No, I think it's yeah. Even last year his average
wasn't great. You know.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
I think, you know, he hit sixty some homers or whatever.
I think he'll be fine.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
I don't know. I mean that's a lot. I mean,
I don't think he hits sixty again.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
I think he probably hits in the forties maybe somewhere
in there. I don't see anything major wrong with his swing.
I think it's just, you know, sometimes being a catcher,
in catching that many innings.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
It can catch up to you a little bit.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
I'm confident and being around him and the person he
is and the worker he is and the even keel
mentality that he has that he'll be fine. But once
you set that bar so high, it really it has
weight to it, and I think that that's that might
be affecting a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, it's like Mickey Telton his froot loops that had
him hitting all those all those hit home runs. He
had fruit loops every morning for breakfast.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Oklahoma Oklahoma state alone.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
There you go, There you go, Matt, great stuff. We'll
talk to you next week. Thanks for being our guest
in the Doug Gottlieb Show.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Hiboub
What up, that's the Doug Gottlieb Show. So I was
watching the Frozen Four. I just I like the alliteration
of Frozen four and how it works with Final four
and how it's just after the Final Four. Oh wait,
they did kind of blatantly rip off the Frozen four
from the Final Four. But whatever, it works. And I
was watching the Bajors losing Ascuse, not the Badgers. The
(00:28):
Wolverines lose in double overtime to the Pioneers of Denver, right,
and Denver has always been a first class hockey program.
One of the one of the key elements to why
their basketball program has struggled at times to get off
the ground is because they do put a lot of
money into hockey. It's super important to the school. But
(00:49):
if you want to know why basketball won the national
championship and why hockey is in the Final Four, the
reason is the other side of the street. I know
that it's embarrassing what happened to Michigan football after the season.
Understand it. Shron Moore and all of that marital issues,
(01:12):
if you will, caused his ouster, and I honestly think
they killed it with Kyle Witningham, who's a great football
coach that was always kind of blocked in by the
fact that he was at Utah. Like, man, what would
Kyle witting him be like if he was at one
of the elite schools in the country. Well, now he is.
Now he has unlimited resources, although he's hired at kind
(01:32):
of an awkward time right and under awkward situation. And
remember he was essentially shown the door at Utah despite
the fact that he's he wasn't there most successful in
a short period of time. That was Urban Meyer is
only there for a year, but he was the most
successful or a long period of time in a much
harder league in the Big twelve, and he was great
(01:54):
in the Pac twelve when they're there as well. But
if you want to know why hockey is good football,
if you want to know why basketball is good playing football,
many times people have started to post things on the internet.
You can do it with state schools in regards to
the revenue generated and the cost of each sport. And
(02:16):
what you'll see is in the black, that's in the positive.
There's usually only two sports, sometimes only one, sometimes there's
two or three. You know, you can make money at
the right school at rest On wrestling, you can make
money sometimes in hockey. Hockey's expensive. I remember a lot
of players you have to have, you know, your own rink,
(02:37):
that upkeep is expensive. The travel is expensive because the
number of people, the number of teams is not great,
and so the travel then is also expensive. But nonetheless
usually the only one that the only two that we
know are making money. Your men's basketball and football. And
(02:58):
men's basketball can make anywhere from couple hundred thousand dollars
to several million dollars. But with college football you can
make Again, this is this is not net this is
gross one hundred and fift two hundred million dollars in
a year. That's not even counting your TV rights. So
(03:18):
the reason Michigan and obviously the Big Ten we've talked to,
I've talked about this and other outlets. The reason the
Big Ten has now finally won a national championship in
basketball is that they're finally able to do what many
people around the country believe other conferences or teams were
doing right, and that's that compensating players above that of
(03:40):
a scholarship. Do I think that back in the day,
or even going back ten years ago, the SEC was
paying college basketball players two three four million dollars per position. No,
but they were definitely sweetened in the pot. I don't
know it for a fact, but very confident that I
(04:04):
could probably find a player or two to say, yeah,
I got a couple hundred grand to go to this school.
And it's not just the SEC and the ACC had teams.
The Big twelve D teams, the PAC twelve D teams,
the Mountain and West probably had teams. There was always
a team in each league that everybody's like they have
a different grant and aid program. The Big Ten, and
this is from twenty plus years of working in television,
(04:26):
is the gold standard, the gold standard for TV rights deals.
And you may think to yourself, wait, I thought it
was the SEC because they won all those football championships. Again,
why ask yourself that question? And it is not an
even playing field between the Big ten in the horizon,
between the Big ten in the valley, but between the
(04:48):
Big Ten, the SEC, the ACC, and the Big twelve,
it's technically an even playing field. You can pay anybody
whatever you want to pay them. The Big ten has
always been the gold stand in TV negotiations and their
rights deals because you have the biggest alumni bases. Right,
All the schools are at a higher level academically, so
(05:11):
they have law schools, medical schools, obviously business schools. In
other words, you have real professionals coming out of those
schools who make real money and real investments, and then
they have real donation dollars. Plus there's more of them
than there are other schools. And I know Texas is
a gigantic school, but Mississippi is not, doesn't have as
(05:36):
big a donation base. It's just a numbers game. Kansas
is not Ohio State. Right, you're talking about the University
of Minnesota fifty plus thousand students. You can't compete with
that when you're at Iowa State. Different school, different sort
of alumni base, so different sort of revenue generated. But
(05:59):
also in the world of nil where everything comes from
donated money, it's not just that you have bigger fan bases,
bigger alumni bases, and those schools all have law schools
and medical schools and you're producing six figure earners the
second they get out of college. It's more to it
that they're in major markets where the not just the
(06:23):
donation dollars, but also the marketing dollars from real fortune
five hundred companies Minnesota is in Minneapolis, huge and growing city. Columbus,
huge and growing city. Indiana. Purdue, although they're not in Indianapolis,
they are an hour away on each side of Indianapolis,
big growing city where plenty of people from the Big
(06:45):
Ten flock to. So any of those corporations that are
tied to those schools, they fund the athletes with real
nil dollars. Penn State obviously out in the middle of nowhere,
but it is the state University of Pennsylvania. It does
have like one hundred thousand students, huge gigantic fan base.
They make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year
off their home football games. They're printing money. The rest
(07:06):
of their athletic department can be really well supported. The
point is that it's the golden rule. Is he who
has the gold rules? And right now, if you look
across college sports, the Big Ten rules. You know, I
was watching Rory at the Masters and leading here on
(07:29):
the second day at the time of the recording of
this podcast, and I was thinking to myself, you know,
last year when he won, he had the tears, and
obviously there's so much that goes into it. And he's
had so many opportunities previously at the Masters where he
choked it away. And there's this weird thing in sports,
(07:52):
and I don't know if it's this way in life
where once you get over kind of the hump of it,
like you can be seen as a guy who chokes,
But then once you get over the choking and you
accomplish it, you don't choke anymore. Michael Jordan's a perfect example.
He wasn't a choker, but Michael Jordan's teams kept bumping
(08:12):
into the Eastern Conference Finals ceiling And the issue with
Jordan was he didn't trust his teammates and he tried
to do it all himself, and the Detroit Pistons would
put him on the floor right try and punish him
because they were like daring him to pass to his teammates.
So with different teammates as well as a different coaching staff,
(08:35):
that gave him space and a knowledge of where player
is going to be. Remember when he won his first
NBA Championship against the LA Lakers. Michael Jordan average eleven
assists a game in the NBA Finals in nineteen ninety one.
If you predate nineteen ninety one, you would have said
that Jordan couldn't win the big one. Now, the one
(08:56):
thing that people would fall back on is, well, he
won the big one in college. Yeah, he hit a
shot to win an NCAA championship as a freshman. He
was open, but it wasn't like he carried North Carolina
and the next two years as one of the elite
players in the country, they didn't win anything. And this
is from the ultimate Michael Jordan defender and fan and
(09:17):
somebody who will fight to the death and says he's
the greatest player I've ever seen play basketball. But he
was seen as a guy who couldn't win the big
game in the NBA until he did, and then once
he did, it didn't seem like he ever lost the
big game. Now, his year back against the Magic, I
don't think he was sharp, and the Magic beat him
(09:39):
and all they got was to the Eastern Conference finals.
But outside of that, you're talking about six NBA Finals
and six NBA Finals wins in seven seasons, either fully
or partially played. That's amazing. Lebron James still catches crap
over how he played against the Dallas Mavericks in his
first second actually NBA Finals Series, right, he didn't play
(10:00):
good again, he didn't play well against the Spurs, but
we gave him pass because well, they didn't have the
surrounding cast and he did have the surrounding cast with
the Miami heat, and he played poorly and he was
seen as a joker. Once he got over that and
once they finally won. Now we look at Lebron completely differently.
That's how you have to look at Rory. You could
(10:22):
take a stop shot of Rory before he won at
Augusta and say he could do everything but win the tournament,
which by pro Golfer's estimation is the biggest of the majors,
right like US Open generally the hardest, the Open Championship.
(10:42):
I mean, listen, it's just a different style of golf.
Links golf in England in Ireland is just different, right,
and then the PGA Championship. Some of it's have been
helped by the move date wise and then course setup
wise has been made more difficult at times. US Open
is probably the ultimate challenge of golf, but the one
that people want to win the most is the Masters.
(11:04):
And once he's won it, does he look completely different
to anybody else. And that's what happens, at least in sports,
and I'm guessing in life, when you finally get over
that hump, that's what when they talk about getting over
the hump, Get over the hump. And now there's a
different swagger. Now there's a different confidence. Now there's different air.
Now there's a different feel to the entire tournament because
(11:25):
of it. He's an NBA champion, and he was an
NCAA champion in seventeen with North Carolina. That became a
first round draft pick. And they see he's got us.
If you're watching us on the digital feed, it's got
the jersey in the background, right, he got Carolina Blue
forty four. I guess was my number, but nobody knows
(11:46):
that Carolina because it's Justin Jackson's number. And he was
all American and he joins us. Now on the Doug
Gottlieb Show, what was first? What was your reaction to
them firing Hubert.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Reaction? I think there was it was. It was a
complex reaction from the standpoint of, like, I never want
to see anybody get fired. I understand how that goes.
It's it's the business things like that. But me and
me and HD had a lot of memories going back
to whenever I played in North Carolina. And the tough
part is is the seasons that he had, the five
(12:21):
years that he had at that school. If he was
in any other school, maybe other than a few others,
they would have been successful seasons. And you know, obviously
it's the nature of the business and it's really really unfortunate.
But I think that was my initial was like, man,
I don't want to see HD go from that perspective.
And I've always said I've never had a hand or
(12:42):
I really haven't even been in any kind of rooms
with decision making, right like I've I I like to
stay out the way anyways. But you know, for them
making the decision, you know, obviously there were things that
they felt, you know, weren't up to the standard of
North Carolina basketball. And so now, you know, we just
try to, you know, figure out what's next. And obviously
(13:02):
Mike Malone, Michael Malone's is the next guy in charge.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Okay, so what do you think, uh, Mike Malone, you
played in the league, he won an NBA championship. What's
your sense of how well he fits Carolina? How well
he fits Carolina in twenty twenty six, twenty seven beyond.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I think when you look at, you know, just the
basketball perspective, I think the highre's great. Right like you said,
he's NBA champion. Everything you hear about him is that
he works extremely hard. X's and o's. He's a genius
when it comes to basketball. So from that perspective, I'm
not worried at all, and I've said it since that
(13:42):
since you know, the hiring happened, if there are the
right people set up around him to help with the
transition from the NBA to college, because there's no there's
no hiding the fact that they're to totally different games.
The NBA is totally different than what college is, especially
now when you talk about transfer, portal, recruiting, all that
sort of stuff. But if the right people around him
(14:06):
that have been around the landscape, have been around college basketball,
have certain connections. I know I saw that, you know,
the associate head coach that he brought in, Chucky Martin
has all types of connections when it comes to international whatever.
So if the right people are around him, then I love,
I absolutely love the higher you know, and then you
(14:27):
throw the aspect if the money is there. I love
the higher because then when coaching comes into play, I
think Michael Malone is going to be one of the
best ones in college basketball when it comes just purely
coaching basketball. So if all of that is set up right,
which I think it will be, especially with the momentum
that North Carolina has now, with the higher, I think
(14:48):
I think it's a great higher.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
It's really interesting, right, I would agree with you, and like,
let's kind of get cut the brass tacks, right. Coaching
ball is coaching ball. And though I obviously the skill
level of the NBA is so different, it's just so different.
Like dudes just don't miss open shots in the bros
as you know, right, that's the difference. If they're open,
they're making it period stop. My thing would be, how
(15:14):
are they going to his ability? I'm not questioning his
ability to evaluate, but evaluating a college player is different
than evaluating an NBA player and evaluating if you Chuck
Martin comes over from Arkansas, right, Evaluating for John Caliperry
and what John cali Perry wants when you've never worked
(15:34):
with Mike Malone is really really hard. And I do
think that NBA coaches it's the best coach in the
world because they're coaching. It's so many more possessions, and
the other coach is so much better and so much
better prepared because you have a whole you know, you
have a whole galley of guys that have all the information,
(15:55):
all the data, and so in terms of coaching ball,
it's great. I do think you also everywhere he's been,
when he's Sacramento and with the Nuggets, he seemed to
have a good relationship with guys. Relationships with college players
is different, right though they're making money now and real
money now. I'm still eighteen, nineteen, twenty years old, so
(16:16):
it's different. I just think it'll probably take you a
year to adjust. Is that fair. It's a little bit
like leveling up to the NBA. It takes you a
year to adjust, and I wonder what that does for momentum.
I think the same thing for Belichick with the football program, Like,
did you really think with eighty five new guys there
(16:36):
were going to be any good this year? No, it's
a totally different sport. But he does know the sport,
so he'll figure it out. It just takes a minute.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
I mean, I don't think any coach when you bring
him in, I don't think Duke with John Shire necessarily
was hey final four first year, that's our expectations right now.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
And he was there. He was there, was yes.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Right, And so I don't I think it's I think
it's not fair expectations to put on any new coach
to say, hey, if you don't make it to Elite
eight in your first year, then you know that's considered
a failure.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I think there's going there. It's it's inevitable that there's
going to be a transition. That's just that's the part
of it. But when I look at like, for instance,
when I and you can't read too much into press conferences, right,
like I've seen you know, people say things and do
things whatever. But like some of the words what stood
out to me through his press conference, some of the
words that he said, it reminded me a lot of
(17:33):
when I was in North Carolina with Coach Williams, right,
And I think Coach Williams is a guy who, if
he stays true to what he's saying, can be somebody
to help him with that transition. Now, when it comes
to the talent scouting. I think that's a whole nother conversation,
right because, in my opinion, what is Michael Malone's not
(17:54):
going to know the players that were legit that are
in the transfer portal this year, right, Like that's just
you can't expect him to he hasn't been in the space,
but the people around him should be able to know, right,
Like whoever it is that's around him, whether it's Jim
Tann or the GM, whether it's Chuck Martin.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Do you do you think let me let me ask
you this though, do you think it? Like, here's the
one thing in the portal that gets missing is you
got to know the kid. You got to know the
right like you just do because you put it they're
going to play for Carolina. Yeah, they're gonna make seven figures.
(18:31):
And like obviously we all talked about like what would
have been like what would I have been worth? What
would you have gotten? You know, like you would have
come back to school after win a national championship and
you would have made probably three four million dollars a year, right,
but how would you have handled that in college? If
you're making three million dollars a year, right, you're not.
It's like college is not designed for that. It's just not.
(18:53):
So it's really hard to So you got to know
the kid because you got to know, all right, I'm
gonna give him this bag and then I'm gonna expecting
to perform at a higher level than he's ever performed
before for a better coach. But you're playing at the
very highest level of college basketball, and we don't know
how he reacts when he already has because we'd like
to think, well, you maintain the level of hunger and
desire it took you to get there, but doesn't always
(19:13):
work that way.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, I mean, heck, you would know more on that
side of things as far as what it's like trying
to within a few weeks trying to build a relationship
with kids and players and try to figure out they fit.
I just think what I've seen over the last two years,
the money is always at the forefront of the conversation, right,
(19:38):
And the money for me, you can bring in Michael Malone,
you can bring in guys that are the top recruiters
in college basketball. If you don't have the money, then
you're not going to bring in any talent anyways. So
the money is first and foremost. And then I think
it's tough because maybe I'm biased. But you talk about
you talk about the North Carolina brand. Now you talk
(20:00):
about a Michael Malone NBA champion. Right, for me, if
I'm a player, if I'm a college player, and okay,
I'm getting the money that I think I deserve. Now,
it's between North Carolina and it's between.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Duke whoever? Right, Like, no, you're competing. You're gonna have
to compete with Illinois Duke Michigan UCLA, right right, and
you And the argument is, hey, it's Carolina and it's
an NBA championship head coach, Yes, beat that one.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah. And so I think for me, if I'm a player, now, obviously,
these players nowadays are probably totally different than I was
because I didn't have to deal with the NIOL and
all this sort of stuff. But if I'm a player,
I'm looking at how can I get to the next level? Right,
I'm getting this money now, but how do I get
to the next level? And this guy's been there and
he's done it, and he's proven that he can take
(20:51):
players early on and turn them into guys that can
go and get really really paid, right, And so I
think for me that's something that gives a little bit
more of an edge that will help with the transition
of not really knowing the guys. But at the end
of the day, I think relationships are huge too, So
you know, I think it's still having people around that
(21:13):
have those relationship with AAU coaches if it's high school kids,
or have them with the agents and things like that.
So hopefully they have those people set in place.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
How difficult is it, as somebody who played for HD,
granted he wasn't a head coach for the Carolina family,
to have an outsider be your head coach.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I wouldn't say it's necessarily difficult. It's stinks seeing him
go right as the person that he is. It's stink's
not seeing a coach Williams at the helm right like that,
like that's you get so accustomed to seeing that. But
when you think about the program, like as far as
where you want it to be, as long as it's
(21:57):
in good hands for me, then that I'm good with it,
right And I think another thing that has helped the
former players with this hire is that they're still keeping
guys that have been within the Carolina family right within
the program, and so, you know, I think it was
when you look at the higher itself. When it comes
to that aspect, I think this was the perfect route.
(22:19):
You bring somebody in that's hasn't been in college basketball,
hasn't been around North Carolina, and now you kind of
have to keep some people that have been around, right like,
so it helps with the former players still coming back
being involved things like that. So from that perspective, I
like the fact that they're keeping all of you know,
(22:40):
or the people that they have around that was there
when I was there and have been there for the
you know, over the past few years and things like that.
So as long as the program has headed in the
right direction and being where it's supposed to be, then
I don't think really any former player would necessarily be
upset that it's outside the quote unquote family.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Hey man, your studs a player. You're getting really really
good at this, so we got to have you on
more often in the meantime. Thanks so much for joining me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I appreciate you for having me. Man.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
All right, let's welcome in seven time All Star, four
times someone Silver Slugger Matt Holliday. If you were nineteen
when you made the bigs. Somebody throws one hundred and
forty million in front of you and you're like, well,
if I wait a couple of years, it can be
seven one hundred million, but there's no promises. Or I
signed up one hundred and forty million for nine years,
which does take me out of that first big swing.
(23:35):
Would you have signed it like Connor Griffin did, or
would you have waited to your arbitration eligible? What do
you do?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yeah, I mean that's a tough one. I mean, look,
I think, I mean, I mean, I just I guess.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
I probably would have taken it, but you know what
the advice of I mean, you have to ask for advice,
and that's why you have agents and you have a family,
and you ask people around you.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
And then I think you look at the talent.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
I mean, he's incredibly talented, but nothing's guaranteed, uh, from
health to performance. I mean he's not played, uh, he's
he's got no track in the major leagues yet. I mean,
he looks like he's going to be a superstar, but
there's no guarantees. I mean, the major leagues is very difficult.
So I would say I would have probably taken it,
(24:25):
but it would have been again, I think that that's
right in that range. I think is a good offer
by the Pirates because I think that is very tempting
for a talent like that, and I think that's probably
what a lot of these teams are doing that. I
think you've seen that a lot, uh where these guys
are uh. These teams are offering money to their up
and coming superstars looking for cost certainty, and you know,
(24:47):
they potentially the Pirates will have one of the best
players in the league for for ten more years, and
that's you know, I guess that's that's a smart play.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Biggest surprise so far the season.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
I think the Mariners haven't played well.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
I think a lot of people picked them to to
probably you know, get to the playoffs for the World Series.
I think that the Al East has been not great.
I think a lot of you know, it's still early,
but I think the Yankees have a pretty good record,
but the rest of the teams are right.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Around five hundred or below.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
The Red Sox have been bad, so I'd say the
Al East not not performing too to their standards. But
I think a lot of teams, really I think it's
been There's a lot of teams that we thought coming in,
like the Phillies and and and maybe even the Giants.
Padres a lot of teams that we thought were going
(25:46):
to be good. They have not got off the great starts.
Which again it's it's one hundred and sixty two games,
so you don't want to overreact. But I think I'd
probably just say that the teams that we expected to
be really good have have not looked great early.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Cal Rawley's the the biggest name of that. Concidering the
year that he had last year, is there anything wrong
with his swing?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
No, I think it's yeah. Even last year his average
wasn't great. You know.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
I think, you know, he hit sixty some homers or whatever.
I think he'll be fine.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
I don't know. I mean that's a lot. I mean,
I don't think he hits sixty again.
Speaker 4 (26:23):
I think he probably hits in the forties maybe somewhere
in there. I don't see anything major wrong with his swing.
I think it's just, you know, sometimes being a catcher,
in catching that many innings.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
It can catch up to you a little bit.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
I'm confident and being around him and the person he
is and the worker he is and the even keel
mentality that he has that he'll be fine. But once
you set that bar so high, it really it has
weight to it, and I think that that's that might
be affecting a little bit.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, it's like Mickey Telton his froot loops that had
him hitting all those all those hit home runs. He
had fruit loops every morning for breakfast.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Oklahoma Oklahoma state alone.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
There you go, There you go, Matt, great stuff. We'll
talk to you next week. Thanks for being our guest
in the Doug Gottlieb Show.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Hiboub
Host
Doug Gottlieb
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