March 6, 2026 • 43 mins
Author Joshua Cutchin dives into a layered conversation with Captain Ron about UFOs and ETs.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM
Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with
Captain Wrong.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
to Coast AM, employees of premier networks, or their sponsors
and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:41):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Hey everyone, it's Captain on and each week on Beyond Contact,
we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
the newest cases as we talked with the top experts.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Welcome to Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron and today
we're going to be speaking with author Joshua Kutchen. He's
the writer of eight critically acclaimed books on the paranormal,
including the two volume set Ecology of Souls, which ponders
whether the UFO alien phenomenon is reaching out to us
from beyond the stars or perhaps beyond the grave. Oh
(01:36):
and although he now lives in Marietta, he did live
in Roswell, Roswell, Georgia. Of course, I was all excited
to say he lived in Roswell, but it turns out
it's Marietta. Hey, Joshua, welcome. How you doing, Bride, I'm
doing well.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
I used to get a lot of strange looks and
people read that, would read that bio and they'd be
all excited, and then they a little bit crestfallen when
they saw.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
The Georgia Rama Georgia.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
Yesha, they haven't really capitalized on that in Roswell, Georgia.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
I don't know why. No, they probably feel like, you know,
it's not their identity. Coming to contact in the desert
for the first time this year, that's great.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
Yeah, absolutely, I'm over the moon about it. I'm so excited.
It's been you know, everybody sort of develops a bucket
list of places that they'd like to go and just
even have a chance to be, which I haven't had
a chance for numerous reasons. But I'm not only it's
getting to be there, but getting to be a part
of it. I feel really quite honored, and absolutely the
end of May can't come fast enough. I know that
Breede said that she's wanting to come fast because she's
(02:34):
got a lot to I feel the opposite. Everybody's like
I can't wait, and we're like, well, we need another month.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
You know.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
It's always so much work, you know, So listen, man,
your stuff's really fascinating to me. The alien phenomenon is
such an unknown obviously, and there are so many different
points of view when schools of thought in this area,
the only consensus perhaps is being that something is happening
to some people. There are all these different ideas of
(03:00):
quote unquote aliens being from another planet, or interdimensional travelers
or time travelers, to name three of a thousand theories.
But in Ecology of Souls you take a fascinating look
at the possibility that this might actually have something to
do with the afterlife. You know, Whitley and Anne Strieber
actually speculated about this at one point, you know, when
(03:21):
they struggle to understand what was happening to Whitley. So
tell us how that could all tie in.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Well, I'm glad that you brought that up, because that
was one of the catalysts for this journey that I
said out on was the note that Anne had scrawled,
this has something to do with what we call death,
And I love how how how those we called death? Yeah,
it gets so much across in such few words, right, beautiful,
But so I I've been thinking about that for a while,
and I was also thinking about the fact that, you know,
Kenneth Ring released his A Mega Project book which drew
(03:49):
comparisons between the UFO contact experience and near death experiences
back in the nineties, and some other similarities that I
just couldn't escape, one of which was that a lot
of shamanic initiations look like well, they involved rather near
death experiences, and Eddie Bullard back in the eighties was
drawing those comparisons between shamanic initiations and alien inductions. Similarly,
(04:09):
you know, I have a deep and abiding love for
Western European fairy folklore, and doctor Jacques Philet pointed out
in nineteen sixty nine's Passport to Magonia that there are
strong resonances between modern UFO contact and older fairy myths,
but the fairies were closely associated with the human debt
as well. So what happens when you put all these
things together, you know, in a dialogue of the UFO
(04:30):
abductions look like shamanic initiations and kind of like near
death experiences, and the initiations have near death experiences, and
then it starts to look rather holistic to me. And
there is a way to examine all the data points
for a way that sort of becomes internally consistent. So
it works for me. It might not work for everyone.
I think that there are a lot of different ways
to look at UFO phenomena, but that was sort of
(04:52):
the entry point, and it just turned out to be
the gift that kept on giving, to the point that
I was just going to write one tidy little book
on UFOs and you know, death, and it turned up being,
you know, two books, with a third book full of
just appendices and notes and bibliography. So but it was
just it was incredibly a rewarding journey to sort of
roll up my sleeves and get into.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
That this whole thing's definitely a gradation, you know, all
the way from white to black rite in between. We all,
every single person I talk to, falls somewhere on each
different topic, somewhere on that gradation. You know, could this
phenomenon itself actually be perhaps more interested in our human
consciousness or our souls after death, more than actually our
(05:31):
physical human bodies. We do hear in different accounts how
there are often a soul component, you know, to the
alien agenda, and we hear that perhaps they don't have souls,
or perhaps they are a form of technology without souls.
Do you have any thoughts on this? Now? I realize
it's a very easy question with a simple, definitive answer,
(05:53):
which in no way would be a speculation on your part.
So what's the answer.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
Yeah, I mean, let's make it clear I have the
answers of no answers, right, That's that's sort of my goal.
But absolutely there's this common thread running throughout all sorts
of contact, And honestly, if you remove the consciousness component
of a lot of sightings, you wind up with just
a few sightings. I mean, there are plenty of people
who see a light in the sky and think, you know,
to think about communicating with it going a certain direction
(06:18):
or something, and a respond. So if you remove something
light philepathy, even from UFO contact experiences, you're you're not
left with a ton of a ton of encounters.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Right identification ones most likely yeah, yeah, and the left
are most likely something else in this guy. Yeah, that's
that's that's very true.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
And again, as we were sort of talking about off
the air, I think that a lot of different answers
can account for all these things. But yeah, I mean
there is this this sort of through line that you
see from anyone who has had ce threes and above
of soul coming up as as a talking point with
the quote unquote aliens. You know, back in the age
of the contact ease, reincarnation was discussed at link to
the extent that I think there were claims that a
(06:54):
dan Ski, you know, reincarnated on Venus. We don't have
to necessarily buy that as true, but like it shows
that from the early days of the Flying Saucer era,
this was sort of an almost religious pursuit. It was
a sort of joke about it as being prisca euphialogia
instead of prisca theologia, like the original version of utology
that way. But you know, in the years since, other
people with close encounters. I believe it was Laurie Barnes,
(07:16):
who was a friend of Whitley Strieber, said that, you know,
she was under the impression that the visitors were recyclers
of souls, and they've told him similar things. They sort
of as stewards of the reincarnation process. So you have
all these different things that sort of are like a
drum beat in the background of a lot of different
contact I listened to your interview with my mentor Greg
Bishop about like, you know, well, there are some NDEs
(07:37):
that have gray aliens in them, and I would say
that you kind of have to broaden the scope even.
I mean, if you look at sort of something like
you know, Ray Hernandez's free study that he conducted, almost
a majority I believe of the entities that were encountered
during those UFO encounters were light beings, beings of light.
So if you say that those are sort of euphological beings,
then almost every NDE has the same sort of presences
(07:59):
in them.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Right.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
It's all about sort of looking at these topics in
a different way and reframing them. You know, there are
other salient characteristics that we could go through like a
laundry list in terms of sounds, in terms of the
tunnel experience, and all these things about indiees that look
like the UFO contact experience, but at the end of
the day, like that is the question, right, what does
it mean? And it seems to have something to do
with the human soul being at stake. Whether that's good
(08:20):
or bad. I think that, you know, is in the
eye of the beholder. A lot of times there are
numerous references to the extra extraterrestrials being interested in human
souls because they don't have them, or because they're a
race that lost them or something. I think of the
work of Nigel Kerner, who was somebody who talked about
those But you know, so there's different ways to look
at this. I think I think that we're kindred spirits
in the sense that I'm inclined to say all of
(08:42):
the above, to the extent that maybe even it does
shift from person to person.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
It almost feels more scary to me when thinking of
it our soul, because that's a lot more on the
line than just this life. You know, it's our soul
they're coming after, right, you know.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
I think that if you look at sort of the
disclosure seasons that we've had over the years, because they
do come in seasons, right, and this has been a
very productive season. I've changed my tune on that event
if you look at sort of the whole recurring theme
of disclosure over the years, an argument could be made
that this is the big secret to conceal. I mean,
once an authority structure admits that you are immortal and
(09:18):
that the worst thing that they can do to you,
ending your life, frankly, in terms of corporal punishment, the
worst thing that they can due to you, has no
bearing on your fundamental existence, well then you lose all
control as an authority structure, right. And if you look
at the sort of movements that have been tamped down
over the years by various governments going all the way
back to the Roman Empire, these are typically religious movements
(09:38):
and social movements and things like that. They have very
little to do with scientific discoveries as much, unless you're
sort of like looking at sort of the relationship between
the church and state anyway. So I think that sort
of might be the biggest, biggest secret, the secret behind
the secret that we might be dealing with here.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Could this also be part of the reason that we
don't get disclosure from our government because they've discovered or
uncovered that this is my bigger than just somebody flying
here from another planet, which would be this scary. But
if it's they really do affect our souls, then it's
that scary. Is that possible?
Speaker 5 (10:10):
I mean, I think that's orders of magnitude more more impactful.
You know, I have a friend who I think I
always keep two or three occultist friends in the background
because it's always like to have some of them in
your camp right now in my opinion, like my occultist
friends who are well read or the smartest people in
the room on these topics. And one of them said, yeah,
you know, the UFO problem always reverts back to spiritual
(10:31):
warfare when it gets to a certain level of government discussion.
And that's what we're seeing again. And you know, I'm
not saying that's right or wrong. I'm just saying that
this is something that I think a lot of people
are aware of, and it's not necessarily the implications that
you see here a lot of people hand ringing over
of you know, did Jesus die for the Zeta reticulan sins.
I don't think that's the real issue that's a stake.
I think it's again the secret behind the secret that is, like, yes,
(10:53):
there are other intelligences, maybe they're interdimensional maybe they're extraterrestrial,
but that pales in comparison to the fact that, yes,
there are metaphor physical consequences for what you choose to
do in this existence. You know, maybe karma is a thing,
maybe souls are a thing, and maybe you know, reward
and damnation or things like that is something that everybody
has to take a week off of work and shut
themselves in their house and then work scientists from another planet.
(11:16):
All right, Joshua, we got to take a break there.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
When we come back, we're going to ask you about
ancient stories that describe stories about fairies and how there
seems to be this remarkable similarity to modern day UFO
UFO sightings and alien encounters. You listen to Beyond Contact
on the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network.
(11:49):
We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with Joshua Kuchen. Joshua,
there seems to be a very notable similarity across centuries.
We're talking about eight hundred years here with accounts that
are described as fairy encounters and those of alien encounters. Again,
I remember a passage in Whitley Streeamer's Communion Again that
(12:09):
directly calls this out as well. Can you walk us
through some of the parallels between the fairy folklore and
modern day UFO encounters.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Oh my goodness, well, this is this is really where
my heart is. A lot of my work always returns
to this question. A lot of these were enumerated by
doctor Volley and his work. You know, in the broadest strokes,
you have little men in green turning into little green men,
but you have also have you know, things like the
powers of levitation, powers to lead people astray. You know,
there's a lot of traditions referring to people being led
(12:40):
astray by the fairies, and Bud Hopkins talked at length
about how some abductees would face these compulsions to pull
off onto a deserted road and they just happened to
have their flying saucer experience there, right.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Sorry for saying.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
Flying saucer so much, by the way, I'm I'm not
I love it. I'm old fashioned and contrarian, so that's
part great. But you know what's been fascinating to me
in terms of like this sort of fairy alien continuum
is how has just been the gift that keeps on
giving because every time I think that I've reached the
bottom of these comparisons, I just go a little bit
further and it's more rewarding. I think you can draw
strong comparisons to you know, supernatural child abductions and the
(13:13):
changling tradition and sort of the human alien hybrid programs.
I've talked about that in one of my books.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
By changeling, you mean having a foot in two different worlds, right.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
Well, the changeing tradition in the fairy sense was the
idea of a human being that was swapped swapped for
a fairy infant or an elderly fairy.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Oh yeah, which is another tie in with the hybrids.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
And if you go back to like you know, Walter
Evans Wentz and you read the descriptions of these changing fairies,
you know, big heads, big eyes, wispy hair, like it's
just it reads like these baby presentations that you know,
doctor David Jacobs has talked about. So you know, obviously
there's some parallels there. But the moment, I tell you what,
around the moment that I really realized that, oh this
isn't like a vague comparison, like this is the same thing.
(13:54):
This is the moment I realized that the words blast, blister,
and blustery all share the same root, because on a
blustery day, you might get hit with a blast of
wind that was sent by the fairies and it would
give you a blister. And this sort of ailment, known
as the fairy blast, could have extreme effects on people.
It could handicap people inevitably. Whenever people would open up
(14:16):
these fairy blasts, you know, they'd go to the local
cunning man or cunning woman or a faery doctor. They
go and have it opened up, and they would find
bones and bits of cloth and teeth and porcelain and
stuff like this. And it's that sounds so much like
the modern alien implant, you know scenario. And again people
are saying, oh, Josh is being skeptical and saying that
(14:36):
this is all in people's heads. No, I'm not. I'm
saying that we've we have interacted with something, and I'm
convinced that the fairy traditions are describing the UFO phenomenon.
But I don't think either of those is a superior
way of looking at this intelligence. I think they're all
culture our.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Lens that we have technology and they didn't have technology,
so they would use, they would call it I think magic.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Oh, absolutely, logical thing, right, And in one hundred years
from now, you know, we might be having people talking
about in abduction experiences where they're saying, oh, the AI
ships came out of the underground server farm and stole
the like. The intelligence is there, and I do think
that it upgrades the mask that it hides behind pretty previews.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
And I think the fairies it could have been more
of a religious these are spirit beings or whatever.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
Yeah, one hundred percent. And that's that's something that's worth
sort of highlighting, is that nobody really knows exactly sort
of the evolution of fairy traditions, at least in Europe.
Sometimes people say that they were demoted pagan gods, or
that they were you know, angels that were too bad
for heaven or too good for hell. But again, there
is this constant refrain that you hear when you really
dig into the original folkloric sources of them possibly being
human beings, of people seeing their dead relatives and loved
(15:46):
ones when they happen to wander into a fairy fort
in the middle of the night. You know, there's this
always presence with and association with the dead. And so
if you use that power of sort of the transitive power,
I would say, if fairies resemble UFO occupants and fairies
resemble the dead, then what does that say about our
UFO occupants? And it's not it's a bit of a heresy,
(16:07):
but there are points there that I think really are
worth considering, you know, not the least of which is
that certain animals that are associated with these death transitions,
animals that are known as psychopomps, these characters that escort
the human dead to the afterlife. Think of Anubis and
Hermes and things like that. These animals that are associated
with that are dogs, horses, and birds. And these are
animals that you see all across not only fairy traditions
(16:29):
but also the UFO tradition. My friend Mike Clelland with
the owls, is a great example of that.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Owls, coyotes. Absolutely. You know, there are other things that
are specifically kind of unique to alien encounters that also appear.
There are like missing time, and.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
That seems to be a reworking of that older tradition
where you know, a year spent, sorry, a day spent
in fairyland might end up being a year in our world.
There are plenty of stories of people going to fairyland
for what they thought was a couple of hours, and
they'd emerge and their entire town would be changed, and
generations would have passed.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
That's some familiar this one, Joshua. I go to see
my mom for two days. It feels like I'm there
for a month, so I know exactly what this is like. Yeah,
are other direct things, Joshua, that there are nighttime encounters.
Typically there's these altered states of sleep paralysis trances that
these people said that they were in. It's kind of
remarkable how on the nose it is, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
It's shockingly on the nose. I mean, like the association
of anomalous lights was once always blamed on fairies, and
now when we see, you know, a light in the
sky or a light bobbing across the landscape, we are
more likely to attribute that to UFOs. Really, like I said,
it really is the gift that seems to keep on giving.
The only thing that you could sort of really criticize
is this idea that well, fairies didn't necessarily travel in
(17:43):
flying saucers. But if you're looking at the way that
the phenomenon sort of upgrades of software, so to speak.
Fairies were always attributed the ability to levitate and fly
and to pluck people up and drop them off in
far from places. So yeah, I would argue that if
you took your usual seventeenth century, eighteenth century account from
some of these older folklore books and just sort of
swapped out the proper nouns and the locations like a madlib,
(18:06):
it would read just like a modern alien deduction scenario.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Yeah, that's what Whitley did in Communion. He had two
pages I remember this from thirty years ago where you
read one and it was actually about fairies coming down
from the trees, and then the next one it was
aliens coming down from the sky. But they were really
kind of the same story and it's eerie, you know.
A big strong one is the telepathic communication.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
Yeah, I mean it's it's the sort of thing where
this doesn't get talked a lot, even in like fairy
scholar circles. And there are fairy scholars, I know, but itcholar. Yeah, yeah,
but it doesn't get talked about even in that so much.
But like, fairies were sometimes believed to possess people, and
if you look back to I don't know, nineteen seventies
literature of Ruth Montgomery talking about walk Ins, it reads
very similar as well. You know, one of the things
(18:50):
that I think is always worth highlighting too, is that
there was this inextricable association between fairies and certain landmarks,
oftentimes hills and some traditions ranging across Europe but also
Eastern Europe. There was a belief that you know, when
you people died, they would sort of go into the hill,
which is also you know, tied up in burial mounds
and that sort of thing. But when you think about that, like,
(19:10):
you know, hills and mountains where the fairies lived, and
there are plenty of stories of you know, supposed UFO
bases being these locations as well, even if not that, though,
even if not that, you've got, you know, stories of
underground UFO bases and where was fairyland almost always located.
It was always located underground, So you have this sort
of recurring I can't emphasize how many layers there are
(19:31):
to this onion, No, actually I can, Actually I can,
because I've been writing books about this comparison for ten
years now so or eleven years. So, yeah, it keeps
on being rewarding time and time again.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
You mentioned alien implants, and I think that's a really
good one because they used to say fairy marks on
your arm? Oh, what's that? Markets from a fairy And
it's very similar to what we say, see that people
claim where it was given to them by an alien?
Could these implants or marks have a symbol meaning or
a psychological undertone more than actually physically being what they say?
Speaker 5 (20:05):
Well, see, these are the really strange waters that I
tend to swim in, which are sort of a story
for you on a sort of a level beyond this,
which is which is that I tend to think that
we have a lot of our concepts of physical versus
non physical, external versus internal, we have a lot of
that mixed up, right. I mean, if you look at
something like side phenomena, that's an internal phenomenon that effects
(20:26):
and reacts to the world outside of us. Ghosts seem
to be ephemeral, but they can slam doors and you know,
leave footprints sometimes. In some of the older parapsychology literature
is what is the implant? Well, I think it can
be two things at once. I think that it can
be something that is mundane and maybe even has a
mundane explanation on this side of the realm. But I
think there's a symbolic metaphysical imprint on the level up
(20:48):
that's exactly what people think it is, right, I mean,
I would say the similar thing to a lot of this,
you know, the UFO human alien hybrid stuff. Like I'm
not denying that there's probably some anomalies if you take
a blood sample of these individuals, some of whom I've
met and worked with, But I think that it might
be more of a metaphysical truth. The problem is is
that we're living in a culture that has sort of
downplayed supernatural things and metaphysical things and all these things,
(21:11):
the symbolic things and archetypal things like, we don't care
about that as much. It's like we're a real brass
tax culture, or at least we have been for the several
past several hundred years. I think that we're on the
cusp of that changing. Then we might be dealing with
more both ands in this space than either ors.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
That's well put. Hey, when we come back, we're gonna
ask Joshua about the possible connection between psychedelics and the
alien experience as people claim. You're listening to Beyond Contact
on the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network.
(21:52):
We are back on Beyond Contact speaking with Joshua Kuchin.
Josh there seems to be some sort of relationship or
at least some overlap between I mean, some psychedelics and
the alien phenomenon were even entering another realm of existence.
What are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
Well, you know, there are two ways to sort of
tackle this, and I'm inclined since this is where the
discussion is, to look at it through that sort of
ecology of soul's perspective, you know, with being focused around
dead and ancestor traditions. I mean a lot of traditionally
used psychedelics, entheogens, these ideas idea of releasing the inner
god that are used in indigenous societies. They were all
part of like a way of well many of them
(22:29):
were a part of a way to not only communicate
with the spirit world, but sometimes the dead or ancestors specifically.
You know, this is something that Terence mckinna was convinced of.
He was convinced that we not only did he call
DMT bungee cording into the Bardo. But he also he
also said that he was left with the impression that
when you go to the DMT space, you're actually entering
(22:51):
an ecology of souls, which is where the book actually
takes this name. So again, it's all about that sort
of transitive property that I've been emphasizing here. If we
have the this DMT or just more broadly speaking, psychedelic
and theogenic space that is dealing with the dead. You know,
there are plenty of stories of people seeing dead loved
ones in that space, and there's some sort of death
(23:11):
connection with the UFO phenomenon, and a lot of shamanic
traditions use Indiagen's like it all starts to play together
really nicely. You know what else is interesting I find compelling,
And you know, we talked a little bit about missing
time in that last segment. There's also sort of a
half life to one's memory and a lot of these experiences.
You know, if you don't write down your DMT trip,
you're likely to sort of forget it. This is something
(23:31):
that's been noticed as well that really puts me in
the same mindset of people who have had dreams and
don't write them down, or people who you know, there's
a Steve Boucher is an alien abductee whose books I've read,
who was sort of kept a journal. Every time he
would have an experience, he'd come in and write it down,
or else he would forget. It's all sort of unfolding
in this sort of like dreamlike other dimension, other space.
(23:52):
Right to say nothing of the fact that you know,
people have taken all sorts of substances from DMT to
salvia and experienced time dilation. Some of those salvia stories
are terrifying, people saying that they, you know, take one
hit and wind up spending ten years as a suitcase
under a staircase, a.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Suitcase under a stairwell or something. It's terrifying, unbelievable. You
know you mentioned Tara McKenna. You know, I wrote down
a couple of points that he made to bring up
to you. It's great that he had the ecology of souls.
He also specifically described DMT as I wrote down four
points here. He said, a gateway to the ontological real
alternative dimension, a realm inhabited by autonomous self transforming machine elves. God.
(24:32):
That sounds like a little fairy to me, to be honest.
And that's the thing.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
You know, you keep on seeing these similar phrases and
similar descriptions, and you keep stumbling over them, and like that.
I guess that's really where my heart is at, is
sort of this interdisciplinary comparativism.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And yeah, I.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Think that there's something really so elegant in that. And
then you take a look at the fact that there's
some research that suggests that, you know, near death experiences
very closely resemble being on a DMT trip. You know,
there have been some people that have actually theorized that
under intense trauma, that's what DMT is for, is to
sort of like, you know, help us to get past
that threshold. I think it was sort of Rick Strassman
who talked about his his DMT work, suggesting that perhaps
(25:11):
DMT was like the rocket fuel to take us to
the afterlife, in which case all starts to make a
perfect sense in my view.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
He calls it the spirit molecule, and he points out
how it's in every living thing, so that's amazing too. Yeah,
and McKenna also said that DMT is not a drug,
it's a doorway. Fascinating. Yeah, he was saying that humans
may be embedded with a much larger trans biological network
of intelligences. Do you think that that's possible. That feels
(25:38):
kind of in line with what you're thinking. I mean, yeah,
And that's also I guess part of the reason that
I labor under the impression that sometimes people misunderstand me
and they're saying, I think, I'm saying that it's not aliens,
or it is this, or it is that, and like,
I think, again, it's all all of the above sort
of questions. So that's why I love That's why I
chose this idea of the an ecology of souls, the
idea that there is sort of a network at place
(26:00):
here and that if you sort of go up enough
ladders of reality, a lot of the things that we
think are strong distinctions become much more indistinct, so that
at once these things can be all sorts of things.
That's all phrase too. I like it.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Well, what that does for me is it relieves a
lot of the pressure we get so hung up on
the initial binary of are these things real or not
and then that secondary sort of limited multiple choice question
of what they are, you know, And I'm much more
interested in what kind of really are and sort of
leaping past those questions to take an ontological position where
you can say, okay, well, assuming these things are real
(26:37):
and assuming that they might be X y Z, what
does that tell us about this experience and sort of
this relationship that we have with this other that's been
quite frankly co walking with us fellow travelers, you know,
since we first stepped down out of the trees.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
I think, are there other substances or realms in history
or folklore that you have come across that seem also
reminiscent of the email visitation. It's always intriguing to me,
the tie ins.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
I think there's an interesting argument to be made in
that sort of Terrence McKenna space about mushrooms and the
way that they not only resemble flying saucers with their caps,
but also mushroom clouds like you know, and what two
more poignant symbols of the atomic era are there than
flying saucers and mushroom clouds, right, But the fact that
their spores can survive through deep space, the fact that
(27:24):
they are you know, as we as long as we're
talking about dead like they are sort of emissaries of
that cycle right, they break down decaying and rotting matter.
And now, as far as the messages that happen in
that space, I do believe that it was. Yeah, it was.
It was Terence McKenna was talking about five dry grams
in silent darkness, and then he would sort of, you know,
put out this call that he learned on I Love
Lucy of little green men, come in, Come in, little
(27:47):
green men. And then he would hear this sort of
fairy brigade or you know, alien esque brigade that would
come ushering in. You know, I myself have spoken to
someone who she and her boyfriend were both taking mushrooms
same time in their backyard. She went in to get
a glass of water. You know, they're sort of riding
the peak of the experience. She goes into good a
glass of water, and she looks outside and there's this
(28:08):
bright light shining on her boyfriend and she she goes outside.
She's like, you won't believe what these things are making
you see happen to you. And he's like, you wouldn't
believe what just happened. There was a flying saucer that.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Came down no way.
Speaker 5 (28:19):
Yeah, so you know, I, you know, I think that
you know, if you're really an adherent of the extraterrestrial hypothesis,
you might say, Oh, the UFO just happened to show
up when they were both on a mushroom trip, and look,
maybe that's the case. To me, it's much more interesting
and numinous and begs so many more questions about the
fabric of reality. If we assumed that they had a
shared hallucination on mushrooms, I mean, that would be that
(28:40):
would that would really upend everything that we think we
know about you.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Well, that would imply either telepathy or some sort of mind.
Speaker 5 (28:46):
Or that network that you were dealing with rightere nodes
in this sort of network that in itself is sort
of like a fractal everything vibrating.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Maybe maybe you know, on certain chemicals, your your your
brain waves are different because you're vibrating differently, maybe you're
more in tune or susceptible to some of these things.
All of it, you know, it all could tie in.
Are there other things? Like we mentioned near death experiences.
It's interesting how that parallels the contact experience as well
a lot of things that sort of overlap there. Can
(29:16):
you think of another one besides the fairies and the
near death experiences that stands out to.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
You, well, the one that I've always really resonated with.
And I give full credit to Eddie Bullard for talking
about this, and also Simon Harvey Wilson, who's a late
scholar who's doctoral dissertation on the topic really influenced me.
But that's the connection between UFO contact experiences and shamanism.
I mean, the way that you look at these things
as sort of initiations or initiatory or being laden with symbols.
(29:42):
I mean, arguably that's a near death experience and psychedelic
trip thing too, right, but it's also a very sort
of has that shamanic flavor to it. Again, it's another
one of those mad Lib experiences. We were talking about
switching things out, and it sounds like a UFO contact experience.
If you read some of this literature on the shamanic
practices of Eastern Eurasia and some of these North American
practices and some of the practices in Island, Southeast Asia
(30:05):
and Australia, it's like, oh, you have these people who
are in the wilderness taken over by spirits that are
small that take them to an underground cavern that is
circular and poorly lit, and they split open their skull
and they put crystals in their head to make them
have their phenomenal powers. And then they return and they're
sort of like these mediators between the community and nature.
(30:26):
It's like, this is the same thing. It really starts
to look. That's where the ecology of Soul's journey took me.
Is like, once you put death at the center of
all this, which really isn't death, it's the cycle of
life and rebirth, but whatever. Once you put death as
the hub of this wheel, a lot of things start
to just end up looking very similar and making sense
(30:47):
because a lot of these shamanic initiations they involve or
simulate that sort of near death experience. More broadly speaking,
they symbolize a death and rebirth narrative, which arguably is
kind of what I think a lot of psychoedel are.
They're sort of like their near death experienced simulators. I mean, like,
I think that the Eleusinian mysteries of Greece were probably
near death experienced simulators. I kind of wonder if the
(31:09):
Pyramids weren't near death experience simulators. You know, something that
takes you, you know to this point and allows you
to come back because every time you come back, you
come back with knowledge. Right, this is something that the
a lot of Greek seers back in the classical tradition,
they would go.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
It's even the hero's journey, right, No, it totally is.
Speaker 5 (31:27):
And that's again that's the archetypal strata that I really
really like to go into. But like a lot of
Greek seers had their powers of prophecy because they refuse
to drink the drink of forgetfulness before being reincarnated. So
it's so idea of going to a space and coming
back chains that you see time and time and time again.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
You know.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
There's a quote that haunts me, Joe Lewell's I think
was his name, but he was talking about how a
lot of these people are dragging these experiences and they
don't have the scaffolding in the twenty first century to
interpret it. And it's almost as if the universe has
a shaman quotion or quota rather shaman quota. If we
don't provide them, the universe sort of steps in and
(32:04):
forcibly has us, you know, produce these people. But we
as a culture are sort of letting them down or
have historically let them down, right, deriding them as crazy
people and not letting them, you know, find place in
our collective, you know, worldwide tribe.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I mean, you take a break. When we come back,
we're going to ask Joshua about whether this could be
something else. Perhaps it's just something psychological. You're listening to
Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM
Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact and
(32:50):
we're speaking with Joshua Kutchen, and I'm just schooling him
with all these references and knowledge that he's lacking.
Speaker 5 (32:56):
Obviously, the blast well, yeah you hear that joke doesn't
land because I'm having too good at a time.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
Do you think that this could be just a way
that the human mind works, Maybe that we somehow create
these other beings, maybe to create a mystery, or maybe
to explain some of the unknowns about our natural world
in one form or another. There seems to be some
sort of interaction with unseen beings throughout most of civilization.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
Well, I think that the first answer to that question
is both and right. That's always That's always an answer
for me, both and right. But I think to the
heart of what you're asking, specifically, the question that we
will never be able to answer. I've heard it said
in SI studies is the objective existence of spirits? Right, Like,
we can we can do randomized control studies with random
(33:48):
number generators and precognition experiments. We can sort of like,
we can sort of get our way to proving that.
I would argue that we have proven that, but we
can get our way to proving that. But there will
always be that lingering question of whether or not this
other intelligence you're interacting with is in your head if
you're like, A, right, that's.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Again I'm doing. Yeah, I have to say, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
I think I used to really resist the idea that
this was somehow coming from us, like, let me settle
this issue. Weird quote unquote impossible things do happen. I
am convinced of that. The only question to me is
is there another intelligence out there? Or is it just
somehow a projection about the core of this question that's
the core of all of this. That's exactly it. It
will phrase. I think that, you know, I think that
(34:28):
there is something very telling to the fact that you know,
Miracle of the Sun at Fotoma Notwithstanding, you don't generally
get a lot of sightings involving tons of people, Like
that's an interesting detail, you know, when you have multiple
people on the siding, it's sort of a novel thing.
That's what the old school upologists used to like, you know,
red marker, let's circle this one right, Yeah, but that
one also with so many people almost makes me feel
(34:49):
like it's the it's a mass hallucination almost like they
all want to see it kind of well, and even
then it doesn't well, and even then it doesn't roll
out the idea that it's coming from one person.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Mean.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
A classic example of this, I heard Chris O'Brien say
this before he passed away, was that the number of
people who who he would take reports from who would
say they would all agree that, you know, yes, I
saw the UFO in the sky, But then they would
disagree on shape, and they would disagree on the color
of the lights. And it's almost like there's some sort
of bridge in between what was being seen in the
perception that was sort of tailored to everyone's experience. And
(35:19):
these experiences are always very personal, they are always sort
of tailored to individuals experiences. That's why so many synchronicities.
I think, well up in the wake of UFO experiences
because they're free those people, you know.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
So I really don't know. I don't, I'm not.
Speaker 5 (35:30):
I'm not going to say it's it's purely psychological, although
that is my disarming counterpoint. Whenever a skeptic talks to me,
I'm like, well, at the very least of it, if
it's all psychological, that tells us a lot about ourselves, right,
And there's a lot yeah, And they have to go, yeah,
I guess that's true, and then they go about their way.
If it comes from us, we are orders of magnitude,
more powerful than we think we are, and complicated, and
(35:53):
so again, a lot of what I try to when
I try to sit with these questions, I try to
think of them in ways that sort of take the
pressure off of things. And to me, that does take
the pressure.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
Off of us.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
My inner twelve year old wants there to be aliens
and Bigfoot and various Well, it's all these things, right,
But it is still miraculous if we are all hardwired
to generate certain archetypes. It is still miraculous if we
can unleash literal superhuman abilities in times of trauma and crisis,
it is still miraculous if I can project something that
(36:24):
both you and I see in the sky from myself,
that's still quite frankly an enchanted world, and it's a
world that I want to.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Live in, right Or is it a shared experience that
we're having that you're Are you putting that in my mind?
Are we somehow connected that way? There's so many ways
to go. Hey, you know, you just brought up synchronicities,
which is my absolute, very favorite thing because I know
that that's also real. So can you tell me how
do you interpret synchronicities?
Speaker 5 (36:48):
For the most part, I don't want to hear your syncreticities, right,
And what I mean by that is they are like dreams, right,
Like you know, my wife has very very vivid dreams.
I don't he tells me her dreams, and I love
her to death, but I generally start to is over right,
But here's the thing, because they're not for me, they're
for her. And similarly, I think a lot of synchronicities
are like that way, unless they're like really mind boggling
(37:10):
and very much.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
That's the whole point of it. Being a synchronisty compared
on contien is that the personalness of it.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
I guess what I'm saying is like people will hear
a series of numbers and then they'll start looking for
those numbers and it's you know, from somebody else because
that was their magical number. For synchronicities, Like, that's not
the way you do it. You have to find out.
You have to find your own significance on the face
out of the blue.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
That's the point of it. I think, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
That's one one, one important thing. As far as what
they are, I think that they are sort of I'm
very much hew to the classic interpretation that there's signposts
that you're on the right track, that sort of thing,
Like I really resonate with that. But also I think
it's kind of like I think Young described this in
his essay on synchronicities, where he was talking about it's
almost like we live on the surface of the ocean
and out there's an island, but it isn't really an island,
(37:55):
Like the island is actually connected to this entire layer
of bedrock that's underneath this. At all times, we just
happen to see the island. And I think that that's
a lot of what we see with synchronicities as well,
but they have to have that sort of transformative quality
to an individual that's really personalized, or else I don't
think it's as important. So yeah, don't go looking for
other people synchronicities. Well no, no, no, or it's got
(38:18):
that's to me. The point is that it's just so
unique to you that only I have this memory and
only I. Yeah, that's what's so amazing. In your view,
are UFO encounters more likely solely technological events or technological
events with biologics or continued folkloric events like we've talked
about through history, or are they consciousness based or something
(38:41):
completely different altogether. I think we need another overhaul of
our thinking. We deal with a false binary of reality, right,
real or true or false? Internal, external, psychic, physical. I
think that it's overdue for an overhaul. But I also
think we need to sort of redefine technology. Ayahuasca is
a technology. You know, hundreds of thousands of speed shoes
of vines in the Amazon River basin, and they just
(39:02):
happened to find the ones that work together where you
get an amo inhibitor that combines so that you can
actually make DMT orally active like that. That's a technology,
but we don't think of it that way because it
doesn't involve silica and microchips.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Right.
Speaker 5 (39:13):
So that's the first part. I think that these things
can be all these things at once too, And I
know that sounds like a slippery Weasley answer, but let
me explain right quick. The first thing that I would
say is that the idea of a static afterlife is
mostly a modern Western sort of concept. If you look
at ancient Egypt or even ancient China, there was this
idea that you would go to the afterlife and like
the afterlife was capable of progress too. You know, you
(39:36):
had to get up and go to work, and you
could build machines and all sorts of stuff. There have
been illusions that UFOs are afterlife technology, technology built in
the afterlife to come over here. I know that sounds wild,
but this is more or less what Whitley Strieber talked
about with his implant and his eye. That it was
designed by Constantine Roudeve, who is an EDP expert who
(39:57):
had passed away route. They designed it in the afterlife
and somehow it wound up in Whitley's eye, Right, But do.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
You think there's a physical world in the afterlife or
is it all etherical?
Speaker 5 (40:07):
I think that that's a false starter of a question too, Like,
I'm not really sure that.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Do you criticize my questions all day long?
Speaker 5 (40:14):
I'm kidding that Gus is the heart of that sort
of internal external thing, Like, I'm not sure really where
we draw that boundary to distinctly, right. So that's that's
one thing that I would say about this. But the
other thing that I would say too is that I'm
not denying that there's crash debris and there might even
be bodies, right, But I do think we need to
really sit back and interrogate the origins of those things. Right.
(40:35):
We're told that they don't originate on Earth, or if
they don't originate our solar system with this meta material,
but rarely does someone ever ask are they originating in
our reality? By which I mean, I think an argument
can be made that these things might be closer to
a ports from Poltergeist cases than they are crashed flying saucers.
I base that partially on the work of doctor Steve
Mira out of the UK. He did a study on
(40:57):
mugs that apported and disupported so then there was a
set of mugs that they had in a haunted house,
and they would vanish and then they would reappear. There
were molecular changes to the mug that had been taken
by the poultergeist and returned by the poltergeist. The salient
point there is that things that have come from another
place or been to that space come back changed at
(41:20):
the microscopic slash molecular level, which seems to be what
we're seeing a bit of with a ports.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
You know.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
I think that there's an argument to be made that
the ectoplasm that they used to see in seances back
in the nineteenth century looks a lot like the angel
hair that people used to find at flying saucer scigns. Right,
Both of them evaporated from sealed containers and were described
as wispy sometimes. So I think that this could come
from a lot of different places. And I'm circling back
around to that by saying that I think that whatever
(41:48):
this is is so strange that it challenges some basic
fundamental things that we assume, like, oh, is it ephemeral
or not ephemeral? I wonder if it doesn't reside in
something that looks a lot more like super position.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
You know, dude, this is all so tough to deal
with because we're dealing with an unknown and we can't
even test it, we can't even repeat it. You know.
At the end of the day, all of this just
speaks clearly to the idea that there is more to
our world than perhaps any of us realize, and we
need clear investigations with all the previous dogma attached. We're
out of time there, brother, but thank you so much
(42:22):
for coming on. I appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
Man. It was an absolute pleasure, and I'm looking forward
to seeing you a couple of months too soon.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
It's gonna be great. Man. Hey, if you guys want
to find Joshua, he's at Joshua Cutchen dot com. You
can find me on Twitter and Instagram at CD Underscore
Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out contact intheesert dot com.
Stay open minded and rational as we explore the unknown
right here. Funny iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Caroinal
Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Ay and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app. Or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM
Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with
Captain Wrong.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
to Coast AM, employees of premier networks, or their sponsors
and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:41):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Hey everyone, it's Captain on and each week on Beyond Contact,
we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
the newest cases as we talked with the top experts.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Welcome to Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron and today
we're going to be speaking with author Joshua Kutchen. He's
the writer of eight critically acclaimed books on the paranormal,
including the two volume set Ecology of Souls, which ponders
whether the UFO alien phenomenon is reaching out to us
from beyond the stars or perhaps beyond the grave. Oh
(01:36):
and although he now lives in Marietta, he did live
in Roswell, Roswell, Georgia. Of course, I was all excited
to say he lived in Roswell, but it turns out
it's Marietta. Hey, Joshua, welcome. How you doing, Bride, I'm
doing well.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
I used to get a lot of strange looks and
people read that, would read that bio and they'd be
all excited, and then they a little bit crestfallen when
they saw.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
The Georgia Rama Georgia.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
Yesha, they haven't really capitalized on that in Roswell, Georgia.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
I don't know why. No, they probably feel like, you know,
it's not their identity. Coming to contact in the desert
for the first time this year, that's great.
Speaker 5 (02:12):
Yeah, absolutely, I'm over the moon about it. I'm so excited.
It's been you know, everybody sort of develops a bucket
list of places that they'd like to go and just
even have a chance to be, which I haven't had
a chance for numerous reasons. But I'm not only it's
getting to be there, but getting to be a part
of it. I feel really quite honored, and absolutely the
end of May can't come fast enough. I know that
Breede said that she's wanting to come fast because she's
(02:34):
got a lot to I feel the opposite. Everybody's like
I can't wait, and we're like, well, we need another month.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
You know.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
It's always so much work, you know, So listen, man,
your stuff's really fascinating to me. The alien phenomenon is
such an unknown obviously, and there are so many different
points of view when schools of thought in this area,
the only consensus perhaps is being that something is happening
to some people. There are all these different ideas of
(03:00):
quote unquote aliens being from another planet, or interdimensional travelers
or time travelers, to name three of a thousand theories.
But in Ecology of Souls you take a fascinating look
at the possibility that this might actually have something to
do with the afterlife. You know, Whitley and Anne Strieber
actually speculated about this at one point, you know, when
(03:21):
they struggle to understand what was happening to Whitley. So
tell us how that could all tie in.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Well, I'm glad that you brought that up, because that
was one of the catalysts for this journey that I
said out on was the note that Anne had scrawled,
this has something to do with what we call death,
And I love how how how those we called death? Yeah,
it gets so much across in such few words, right, beautiful,
But so I I've been thinking about that for a while,
and I was also thinking about the fact that, you know,
Kenneth Ring released his A Mega Project book which drew
(03:49):
comparisons between the UFO contact experience and near death experiences
back in the nineties, and some other similarities that I
just couldn't escape, one of which was that a lot
of shamanic initiations look like well, they involved rather near
death experiences, and Eddie Bullard back in the eighties was
drawing those comparisons between shamanic initiations and alien inductions. Similarly,
(04:09):
you know, I have a deep and abiding love for
Western European fairy folklore, and doctor Jacques Philet pointed out
in nineteen sixty nine's Passport to Magonia that there are
strong resonances between modern UFO contact and older fairy myths,
but the fairies were closely associated with the human debt
as well. So what happens when you put all these
things together, you know, in a dialogue of the UFO
(04:30):
abductions look like shamanic initiations and kind of like near
death experiences, and the initiations have near death experiences, and
then it starts to look rather holistic to me. And
there is a way to examine all the data points
for a way that sort of becomes internally consistent. So
it works for me. It might not work for everyone.
I think that there are a lot of different ways
to look at UFO phenomena, but that was sort of
(04:52):
the entry point, and it just turned out to be
the gift that kept on giving, to the point that
I was just going to write one tidy little book
on UFOs and you know, death, and it turned up being,
you know, two books, with a third book full of
just appendices and notes and bibliography. So but it was
just it was incredibly a rewarding journey to sort of
roll up my sleeves and get into.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
That this whole thing's definitely a gradation, you know, all
the way from white to black rite in between. We all,
every single person I talk to, falls somewhere on each
different topic, somewhere on that gradation. You know, could this
phenomenon itself actually be perhaps more interested in our human
consciousness or our souls after death, more than actually our
(05:31):
physical human bodies. We do hear in different accounts how
there are often a soul component, you know, to the
alien agenda, and we hear that perhaps they don't have souls,
or perhaps they are a form of technology without souls.
Do you have any thoughts on this? Now? I realize
it's a very easy question with a simple, definitive answer,
(05:53):
which in no way would be a speculation on your part.
So what's the answer.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
Yeah, I mean, let's make it clear I have the
answers of no answers, right, That's that's sort of my goal.
But absolutely there's this common thread running throughout all sorts
of contact, And honestly, if you remove the consciousness component
of a lot of sightings, you wind up with just
a few sightings. I mean, there are plenty of people
who see a light in the sky and think, you know,
to think about communicating with it going a certain direction
(06:18):
or something, and a respond. So if you remove something
light philepathy, even from UFO contact experiences, you're you're not
left with a ton of a ton of encounters.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Right identification ones most likely yeah, yeah, and the left
are most likely something else in this guy. Yeah, that's
that's that's very true.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
And again, as we were sort of talking about off
the air, I think that a lot of different answers
can account for all these things. But yeah, I mean
there is this this sort of through line that you
see from anyone who has had ce threes and above
of soul coming up as as a talking point with
the quote unquote aliens. You know, back in the age
of the contact ease, reincarnation was discussed at link to
the extent that I think there were claims that a
(06:54):
dan Ski, you know, reincarnated on Venus. We don't have
to necessarily buy that as true, but like it shows
that from the early days of the Flying Saucer era,
this was sort of an almost religious pursuit. It was
a sort of joke about it as being prisca euphialogia
instead of prisca theologia, like the original version of utology
that way. But you know, in the years since, other
people with close encounters. I believe it was Laurie Barnes,
(07:16):
who was a friend of Whitley Strieber, said that, you know,
she was under the impression that the visitors were recyclers
of souls, and they've told him similar things. They sort
of as stewards of the reincarnation process. So you have
all these different things that sort of are like a
drum beat in the background of a lot of different
contact I listened to your interview with my mentor Greg
Bishop about like, you know, well, there are some NDEs
(07:37):
that have gray aliens in them, and I would say
that you kind of have to broaden the scope even.
I mean, if you look at sort of something like
you know, Ray Hernandez's free study that he conducted, almost
a majority I believe of the entities that were encountered
during those UFO encounters were light beings, beings of light.
So if you say that those are sort of euphological beings,
then almost every NDE has the same sort of presences
(07:59):
in them.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Right.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
It's all about sort of looking at these topics in
a different way and reframing them. You know, there are
other salient characteristics that we could go through like a
laundry list in terms of sounds, in terms of the
tunnel experience, and all these things about indiees that look
like the UFO contact experience, but at the end of
the day, like that is the question, right, what does
it mean? And it seems to have something to do
with the human soul being at stake. Whether that's good
(08:20):
or bad. I think that, you know, is in the
eye of the beholder. A lot of times there are
numerous references to the extra extraterrestrials being interested in human
souls because they don't have them, or because they're a
race that lost them or something. I think of the
work of Nigel Kerner, who was somebody who talked about
those But you know, so there's different ways to look
at this. I think I think that we're kindred spirits
in the sense that I'm inclined to say all of
(08:42):
the above, to the extent that maybe even it does
shift from person to person.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
It almost feels more scary to me when thinking of
it our soul, because that's a lot more on the
line than just this life. You know, it's our soul
they're coming after, right, you know.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
I think that if you look at sort of the
disclosure seasons that we've had over the years, because they
do come in seasons, right, and this has been a
very productive season. I've changed my tune on that event
if you look at sort of the whole recurring theme
of disclosure over the years, an argument could be made
that this is the big secret to conceal. I mean,
once an authority structure admits that you are immortal and
(09:18):
that the worst thing that they can do to you,
ending your life, frankly, in terms of corporal punishment, the
worst thing that they can due to you, has no
bearing on your fundamental existence, well then you lose all
control as an authority structure, right. And if you look
at the sort of movements that have been tamped down
over the years by various governments going all the way
back to the Roman Empire, these are typically religious movements
(09:38):
and social movements and things like that. They have very
little to do with scientific discoveries as much, unless you're
sort of like looking at sort of the relationship between
the church and state anyway. So I think that sort
of might be the biggest, biggest secret, the secret behind
the secret that we might be dealing with here.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Could this also be part of the reason that we
don't get disclosure from our government because they've discovered or
uncovered that this is my bigger than just somebody flying
here from another planet, which would be this scary. But
if it's they really do affect our souls, then it's
that scary. Is that possible?
Speaker 5 (10:10):
I mean, I think that's orders of magnitude more more impactful.
You know, I have a friend who I think I
always keep two or three occultist friends in the background
because it's always like to have some of them in
your camp right now in my opinion, like my occultist
friends who are well read or the smartest people in
the room on these topics. And one of them said, yeah,
you know, the UFO problem always reverts back to spiritual
(10:31):
warfare when it gets to a certain level of government discussion.
And that's what we're seeing again. And you know, I'm
not saying that's right or wrong. I'm just saying that
this is something that I think a lot of people
are aware of, and it's not necessarily the implications that
you see here a lot of people hand ringing over
of you know, did Jesus die for the Zeta reticulan sins.
I don't think that's the real issue that's a stake.
I think it's again the secret behind the secret that is, like, yes,
(10:53):
there are other intelligences, maybe they're interdimensional maybe they're extraterrestrial,
but that pales in comparison to the fact that, yes,
there are metaphor physical consequences for what you choose to
do in this existence. You know, maybe karma is a thing,
maybe souls are a thing, and maybe you know, reward
and damnation or things like that is something that everybody
has to take a week off of work and shut
themselves in their house and then work scientists from another planet.
(11:16):
All right, Joshua, we got to take a break there.
Speaker 4 (11:17):
When we come back, we're going to ask you about
ancient stories that describe stories about fairies and how there
seems to be this remarkable similarity to modern day UFO
UFO sightings and alien encounters. You listen to Beyond Contact
on the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network.
(11:49):
We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with Joshua Kuchen. Joshua,
there seems to be a very notable similarity across centuries.
We're talking about eight hundred years here with accounts that
are described as fairy encounters and those of alien encounters. Again,
I remember a passage in Whitley Streeamer's Communion Again that
(12:09):
directly calls this out as well. Can you walk us
through some of the parallels between the fairy folklore and
modern day UFO encounters.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Oh my goodness, well, this is this is really where
my heart is. A lot of my work always returns
to this question. A lot of these were enumerated by
doctor Volley and his work. You know, in the broadest strokes,
you have little men in green turning into little green men,
but you have also have you know, things like the
powers of levitation, powers to lead people astray. You know,
there's a lot of traditions referring to people being led
(12:40):
astray by the fairies, and Bud Hopkins talked at length
about how some abductees would face these compulsions to pull
off onto a deserted road and they just happened to
have their flying saucer experience there, right.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Sorry for saying.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
Flying saucer so much, by the way, I'm I'm not
I love it. I'm old fashioned and contrarian, so that's
part great. But you know what's been fascinating to me
in terms of like this sort of fairy alien continuum
is how has just been the gift that keeps on
giving because every time I think that I've reached the
bottom of these comparisons, I just go a little bit
further and it's more rewarding. I think you can draw
strong comparisons to you know, supernatural child abductions and the
(13:13):
changling tradition and sort of the human alien hybrid programs.
I've talked about that in one of my books.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
By changeling, you mean having a foot in two different worlds, right.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
Well, the changeing tradition in the fairy sense was the
idea of a human being that was swapped swapped for
a fairy infant or an elderly fairy.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Oh yeah, which is another tie in with the hybrids.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
And if you go back to like you know, Walter
Evans Wentz and you read the descriptions of these changing fairies,
you know, big heads, big eyes, wispy hair, like it's
just it reads like these baby presentations that you know,
doctor David Jacobs has talked about. So you know, obviously
there's some parallels there. But the moment, I tell you what,
around the moment that I really realized that, oh this
isn't like a vague comparison, like this is the same thing.
(13:54):
This is the moment I realized that the words blast, blister,
and blustery all share the same root, because on a
blustery day, you might get hit with a blast of
wind that was sent by the fairies and it would
give you a blister. And this sort of ailment, known
as the fairy blast, could have extreme effects on people.
It could handicap people inevitably. Whenever people would open up
(14:16):
these fairy blasts, you know, they'd go to the local
cunning man or cunning woman or a faery doctor. They
go and have it opened up, and they would find
bones and bits of cloth and teeth and porcelain and
stuff like this. And it's that sounds so much like
the modern alien implant, you know scenario. And again people
are saying, oh, Josh is being skeptical and saying that
(14:36):
this is all in people's heads. No, I'm not. I'm
saying that we've we have interacted with something, and I'm
convinced that the fairy traditions are describing the UFO phenomenon.
But I don't think either of those is a superior
way of looking at this intelligence. I think they're all
culture our.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Lens that we have technology and they didn't have technology,
so they would use, they would call it I think magic.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Oh, absolutely, logical thing, right, And in one hundred years
from now, you know, we might be having people talking
about in abduction experiences where they're saying, oh, the AI
ships came out of the underground server farm and stole
the like. The intelligence is there, and I do think
that it upgrades the mask that it hides behind pretty previews.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
And I think the fairies it could have been more
of a religious these are spirit beings or whatever.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
Yeah, one hundred percent. And that's that's something that's worth
sort of highlighting, is that nobody really knows exactly sort
of the evolution of fairy traditions, at least in Europe.
Sometimes people say that they were demoted pagan gods, or
that they were you know, angels that were too bad
for heaven or too good for hell. But again, there
is this constant refrain that you hear when you really
dig into the original folkloric sources of them possibly being
human beings, of people seeing their dead relatives and loved
(15:46):
ones when they happen to wander into a fairy fort
in the middle of the night. You know, there's this
always presence with and association with the dead. And so
if you use that power of sort of the transitive power,
I would say, if fairies resemble UFO occupants and fairies
resemble the dead, then what does that say about our
UFO occupants? And it's not it's a bit of a heresy,
(16:07):
but there are points there that I think really are
worth considering, you know, not the least of which is
that certain animals that are associated with these death transitions,
animals that are known as psychopomps, these characters that escort
the human dead to the afterlife. Think of Anubis and
Hermes and things like that. These animals that are associated
with that are dogs, horses, and birds. And these are
animals that you see all across not only fairy traditions
(16:29):
but also the UFO tradition. My friend Mike Clelland with
the owls, is a great example of that.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
Owls, coyotes. Absolutely. You know, there are other things that
are specifically kind of unique to alien encounters that also appear.
There are like missing time, and.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
That seems to be a reworking of that older tradition
where you know, a year spent, sorry, a day spent
in fairyland might end up being a year in our world.
There are plenty of stories of people going to fairyland
for what they thought was a couple of hours, and
they'd emerge and their entire town would be changed, and
generations would have passed.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
That's some familiar this one, Joshua. I go to see
my mom for two days. It feels like I'm there
for a month, so I know exactly what this is like. Yeah,
are other direct things, Joshua, that there are nighttime encounters.
Typically there's these altered states of sleep paralysis trances that
these people said that they were in. It's kind of
remarkable how on the nose it is, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
It's shockingly on the nose. I mean, like the association
of anomalous lights was once always blamed on fairies, and
now when we see, you know, a light in the
sky or a light bobbing across the landscape, we are
more likely to attribute that to UFOs. Really, like I said,
it really is the gift that seems to keep on giving.
The only thing that you could sort of really criticize
is this idea that well, fairies didn't necessarily travel in
(17:43):
flying saucers. But if you're looking at the way that
the phenomenon sort of upgrades of software, so to speak.
Fairies were always attributed the ability to levitate and fly
and to pluck people up and drop them off in
far from places. So yeah, I would argue that if
you took your usual seventeenth century, eighteenth century account from
some of these older folklore books and just sort of
swapped out the proper nouns and the locations like a madlib,
(18:06):
it would read just like a modern alien deduction scenario.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Yeah, that's what Whitley did in Communion. He had two
pages I remember this from thirty years ago where you
read one and it was actually about fairies coming down
from the trees, and then the next one it was
aliens coming down from the sky. But they were really
kind of the same story and it's eerie, you know.
A big strong one is the telepathic communication.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
Yeah, I mean it's it's the sort of thing where
this doesn't get talked a lot, even in like fairy
scholar circles. And there are fairy scholars, I know, but itcholar. Yeah, yeah,
but it doesn't get talked about even in that so much.
But like, fairies were sometimes believed to possess people, and
if you look back to I don't know, nineteen seventies
literature of Ruth Montgomery talking about walk Ins, it reads
very similar as well. You know, one of the things
(18:50):
that I think is always worth highlighting too, is that
there was this inextricable association between fairies and certain landmarks,
oftentimes hills and some traditions ranging across Europe but also
Eastern Europe. There was a belief that you know, when
you people died, they would sort of go into the hill,
which is also you know, tied up in burial mounds
and that sort of thing. But when you think about that, like,
(19:10):
you know, hills and mountains where the fairies lived, and
there are plenty of stories of you know, supposed UFO
bases being these locations as well, even if not that, though,
even if not that, you've got, you know, stories of
underground UFO bases and where was fairyland almost always located.
It was always located underground, So you have this sort
of recurring I can't emphasize how many layers there are
(19:31):
to this onion, No, actually I can, Actually I can,
because I've been writing books about this comparison for ten
years now so or eleven years. So, yeah, it keeps
on being rewarding time and time again.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
You mentioned alien implants, and I think that's a really
good one because they used to say fairy marks on
your arm? Oh, what's that? Markets from a fairy And
it's very similar to what we say, see that people
claim where it was given to them by an alien?
Could these implants or marks have a symbol meaning or
a psychological undertone more than actually physically being what they say?
Speaker 5 (20:05):
Well, see, these are the really strange waters that I
tend to swim in, which are sort of a story
for you on a sort of a level beyond this,
which is which is that I tend to think that
we have a lot of our concepts of physical versus
non physical, external versus internal, we have a lot of
that mixed up, right. I mean, if you look at
something like side phenomena, that's an internal phenomenon that effects
(20:26):
and reacts to the world outside of us. Ghosts seem
to be ephemeral, but they can slam doors and you know,
leave footprints sometimes. In some of the older parapsychology literature
is what is the implant? Well, I think it can
be two things at once. I think that it can
be something that is mundane and maybe even has a
mundane explanation on this side of the realm. But I
think there's a symbolic metaphysical imprint on the level up
(20:48):
that's exactly what people think it is, right, I mean,
I would say the similar thing to a lot of this,
you know, the UFO human alien hybrid stuff. Like I'm
not denying that there's probably some anomalies if you take
a blood sample of these individuals, some of whom I've
met and worked with, But I think that it might
be more of a metaphysical truth. The problem is is
that we're living in a culture that has sort of
downplayed supernatural things and metaphysical things and all these things,
(21:11):
the symbolic things and archetypal things like, we don't care
about that as much. It's like we're a real brass
tax culture, or at least we have been for the several
past several hundred years. I think that we're on the
cusp of that changing. Then we might be dealing with
more both ands in this space than either ors.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
That's well put. Hey, when we come back, we're gonna
ask Joshua about the possible connection between psychedelics and the
alien experience as people claim. You're listening to Beyond Contact
on the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network.
(21:52):
We are back on Beyond Contact speaking with Joshua Kuchin.
Josh there seems to be some sort of relationship or
at least some overlap between I mean, some psychedelics and
the alien phenomenon were even entering another realm of existence.
What are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
Well, you know, there are two ways to sort of
tackle this, and I'm inclined since this is where the
discussion is, to look at it through that sort of
ecology of soul's perspective, you know, with being focused around
dead and ancestor traditions. I mean a lot of traditionally
used psychedelics, entheogens, these ideas idea of releasing the inner
god that are used in indigenous societies. They were all
part of like a way of well many of them
(22:29):
were a part of a way to not only communicate
with the spirit world, but sometimes the dead or ancestors specifically.
You know, this is something that Terence mckinna was convinced of.
He was convinced that we not only did he call
DMT bungee cording into the Bardo. But he also he
also said that he was left with the impression that
when you go to the DMT space, you're actually entering
(22:51):
an ecology of souls, which is where the book actually
takes this name. So again, it's all about that sort
of transitive property that I've been emphasizing here. If we
have the this DMT or just more broadly speaking, psychedelic
and theogenic space that is dealing with the dead. You know,
there are plenty of stories of people seeing dead loved
ones in that space, and there's some sort of death
(23:11):
connection with the UFO phenomenon, and a lot of shamanic
traditions use Indiagen's like it all starts to play together
really nicely. You know what else is interesting I find compelling,
And you know, we talked a little bit about missing
time in that last segment. There's also sort of a
half life to one's memory and a lot of these experiences.
You know, if you don't write down your DMT trip,
you're likely to sort of forget it. This is something
(23:31):
that's been noticed as well that really puts me in
the same mindset of people who have had dreams and
don't write them down, or people who you know, there's
a Steve Boucher is an alien abductee whose books I've read,
who was sort of kept a journal. Every time he
would have an experience, he'd come in and write it down,
or else he would forget. It's all sort of unfolding
in this sort of like dreamlike other dimension, other space.
(23:52):
Right to say nothing of the fact that you know,
people have taken all sorts of substances from DMT to
salvia and experienced time dilation. Some of those salvia stories
are terrifying, people saying that they, you know, take one
hit and wind up spending ten years as a suitcase
under a staircase, a.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Suitcase under a stairwell or something. It's terrifying, unbelievable. You
know you mentioned Tara McKenna. You know, I wrote down
a couple of points that he made to bring up
to you. It's great that he had the ecology of souls.
He also specifically described DMT as I wrote down four
points here. He said, a gateway to the ontological real
alternative dimension, a realm inhabited by autonomous self transforming machine elves. God.
(24:32):
That sounds like a little fairy to me, to be honest.
And that's the thing.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
You know, you keep on seeing these similar phrases and
similar descriptions, and you keep stumbling over them, and like that.
I guess that's really where my heart is at, is
sort of this interdisciplinary comparativism.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And yeah, I.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Think that there's something really so elegant in that. And
then you take a look at the fact that there's
some research that suggests that, you know, near death experiences
very closely resemble being on a DMT trip. You know,
there have been some people that have actually theorized that
under intense trauma, that's what DMT is for, is to
sort of like, you know, help us to get past
that threshold. I think it was sort of Rick Strassman
who talked about his his DMT work, suggesting that perhaps
(25:11):
DMT was like the rocket fuel to take us to
the afterlife, in which case all starts to make a
perfect sense in my view.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
He calls it the spirit molecule, and he points out
how it's in every living thing, so that's amazing too. Yeah,
and McKenna also said that DMT is not a drug,
it's a doorway. Fascinating. Yeah, he was saying that humans
may be embedded with a much larger trans biological network
of intelligences. Do you think that that's possible. That feels
(25:38):
kind of in line with what you're thinking. I mean, yeah,
And that's also I guess part of the reason that
I labor under the impression that sometimes people misunderstand me
and they're saying, I think, I'm saying that it's not aliens,
or it is this, or it is that, and like,
I think, again, it's all all of the above sort
of questions. So that's why I love That's why I
chose this idea of the an ecology of souls, the
idea that there is sort of a network at place
(26:00):
here and that if you sort of go up enough
ladders of reality, a lot of the things that we
think are strong distinctions become much more indistinct, so that
at once these things can be all sorts of things.
That's all phrase too. I like it.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Well, what that does for me is it relieves a
lot of the pressure we get so hung up on
the initial binary of are these things real or not
and then that secondary sort of limited multiple choice question
of what they are, you know, And I'm much more
interested in what kind of really are and sort of
leaping past those questions to take an ontological position where
you can say, okay, well, assuming these things are real
(26:37):
and assuming that they might be X y Z, what
does that tell us about this experience and sort of
this relationship that we have with this other that's been
quite frankly co walking with us fellow travelers, you know,
since we first stepped down out of the trees.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
I think, are there other substances or realms in history
or folklore that you have come across that seem also
reminiscent of the email visitation. It's always intriguing to me,
the tie ins.
Speaker 5 (27:03):
I think there's an interesting argument to be made in
that sort of Terrence McKenna space about mushrooms and the
way that they not only resemble flying saucers with their caps,
but also mushroom clouds like you know, and what two
more poignant symbols of the atomic era are there than
flying saucers and mushroom clouds, right, But the fact that
their spores can survive through deep space, the fact that
(27:24):
they are you know, as we as long as we're
talking about dead like they are sort of emissaries of
that cycle right, they break down decaying and rotting matter.
And now, as far as the messages that happen in
that space, I do believe that it was. Yeah, it was.
It was Terence McKenna was talking about five dry grams
in silent darkness, and then he would sort of, you know,
put out this call that he learned on I Love
Lucy of little green men, come in, Come in, little
(27:47):
green men. And then he would hear this sort of
fairy brigade or you know, alien esque brigade that would
come ushering in. You know, I myself have spoken to
someone who she and her boyfriend were both taking mushrooms
same time in their backyard. She went in to get
a glass of water. You know, they're sort of riding
the peak of the experience. She goes into good a
glass of water, and she looks outside and there's this
(28:08):
bright light shining on her boyfriend and she she goes outside.
She's like, you won't believe what these things are making
you see happen to you. And he's like, you wouldn't
believe what just happened. There was a flying saucer that.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Came down no way.
Speaker 5 (28:19):
Yeah, so you know, I, you know, I think that
you know, if you're really an adherent of the extraterrestrial hypothesis,
you might say, Oh, the UFO just happened to show
up when they were both on a mushroom trip, and look,
maybe that's the case. To me, it's much more interesting
and numinous and begs so many more questions about the
fabric of reality. If we assumed that they had a
shared hallucination on mushrooms, I mean, that would be that
(28:40):
would that would really upend everything that we think we
know about you.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Well, that would imply either telepathy or some sort of mind.
Speaker 5 (28:46):
Or that network that you were dealing with rightere nodes
in this sort of network that in itself is sort
of like a fractal everything vibrating.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Maybe maybe you know, on certain chemicals, your your your
brain waves are different because you're vibrating differently, maybe you're
more in tune or susceptible to some of these things.
All of it, you know, it all could tie in.
Are there other things? Like we mentioned near death experiences.
It's interesting how that parallels the contact experience as well
a lot of things that sort of overlap there. Can
(29:16):
you think of another one besides the fairies and the
near death experiences that stands out to.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
You, well, the one that I've always really resonated with.
And I give full credit to Eddie Bullard for talking
about this, and also Simon Harvey Wilson, who's a late
scholar who's doctoral dissertation on the topic really influenced me.
But that's the connection between UFO contact experiences and shamanism.
I mean, the way that you look at these things
as sort of initiations or initiatory or being laden with symbols.
(29:42):
I mean, arguably that's a near death experience and psychedelic
trip thing too, right, but it's also a very sort
of has that shamanic flavor to it. Again, it's another
one of those mad Lib experiences. We were talking about
switching things out, and it sounds like a UFO contact experience.
If you read some of this literature on the shamanic
practices of Eastern Eurasia and some of these North American
practices and some of the practices in Island, Southeast Asia
(30:05):
and Australia, it's like, oh, you have these people who
are in the wilderness taken over by spirits that are
small that take them to an underground cavern that is
circular and poorly lit, and they split open their skull
and they put crystals in their head to make them
have their phenomenal powers. And then they return and they're
sort of like these mediators between the community and nature.
(30:26):
It's like, this is the same thing. It really starts
to look. That's where the ecology of Soul's journey took me.
Is like, once you put death at the center of
all this, which really isn't death, it's the cycle of
life and rebirth, but whatever. Once you put death as
the hub of this wheel, a lot of things start
to just end up looking very similar and making sense
(30:47):
because a lot of these shamanic initiations they involve or
simulate that sort of near death experience. More broadly speaking,
they symbolize a death and rebirth narrative, which arguably is
kind of what I think a lot of psychoedel are.
They're sort of like their near death experienced simulators. I mean, like,
I think that the Eleusinian mysteries of Greece were probably
near death experienced simulators. I kind of wonder if the
(31:09):
Pyramids weren't near death experience simulators. You know, something that
takes you, you know to this point and allows you
to come back because every time you come back, you
come back with knowledge. Right, this is something that the
a lot of Greek seers back in the classical tradition,
they would go.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
It's even the hero's journey, right, No, it totally is.
Speaker 5 (31:27):
And that's again that's the archetypal strata that I really
really like to go into. But like a lot of
Greek seers had their powers of prophecy because they refuse
to drink the drink of forgetfulness before being reincarnated. So
it's so idea of going to a space and coming
back chains that you see time and time and time again.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
You know.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
There's a quote that haunts me, Joe Lewell's I think
was his name, but he was talking about how a
lot of these people are dragging these experiences and they
don't have the scaffolding in the twenty first century to
interpret it. And it's almost as if the universe has
a shaman quotion or quota rather shaman quota. If we
don't provide them, the universe sort of steps in and
(32:04):
forcibly has us, you know, produce these people. But we
as a culture are sort of letting them down or
have historically let them down, right, deriding them as crazy
people and not letting them, you know, find place in
our collective, you know, worldwide tribe.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I mean, you take a break. When we come back,
we're going to ask Joshua about whether this could be
something else. Perhaps it's just something psychological. You're listening to
Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM
Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact and
(32:50):
we're speaking with Joshua Kutchen, and I'm just schooling him
with all these references and knowledge that he's lacking.
Speaker 5 (32:56):
Obviously, the blast well, yeah you hear that joke doesn't
land because I'm having too good at a time.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
Do you think that this could be just a way
that the human mind works, Maybe that we somehow create
these other beings, maybe to create a mystery, or maybe
to explain some of the unknowns about our natural world
in one form or another. There seems to be some
sort of interaction with unseen beings throughout most of civilization.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
Well, I think that the first answer to that question
is both and right. That's always That's always an answer
for me, both and right. But I think to the
heart of what you're asking, specifically, the question that we
will never be able to answer. I've heard it said
in SI studies is the objective existence of spirits? Right, Like,
we can we can do randomized control studies with random
(33:48):
number generators and precognition experiments. We can sort of like,
we can sort of get our way to proving that.
I would argue that we have proven that, but we
can get our way to proving that. But there will
always be that lingering question of whether or not this
other intelligence you're interacting with is in your head if
you're like, A, right, that's.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Again I'm doing. Yeah, I have to say, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (34:08):
I think I used to really resist the idea that
this was somehow coming from us, like, let me settle
this issue. Weird quote unquote impossible things do happen. I
am convinced of that. The only question to me is
is there another intelligence out there? Or is it just
somehow a projection about the core of this question that's
the core of all of this. That's exactly it. It
will phrase. I think that, you know, I think that
(34:28):
there is something very telling to the fact that you know,
Miracle of the Sun at Fotoma Notwithstanding, you don't generally
get a lot of sightings involving tons of people, Like
that's an interesting detail, you know, when you have multiple
people on the siding, it's sort of a novel thing.
That's what the old school upologists used to like, you know,
red marker, let's circle this one right, Yeah, but that
one also with so many people almost makes me feel
(34:49):
like it's the it's a mass hallucination almost like they
all want to see it kind of well, and even
then it doesn't well, and even then it doesn't roll
out the idea that it's coming from one person.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Mean.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
A classic example of this, I heard Chris O'Brien say
this before he passed away, was that the number of
people who who he would take reports from who would
say they would all agree that, you know, yes, I
saw the UFO in the sky, But then they would
disagree on shape, and they would disagree on the color
of the lights. And it's almost like there's some sort
of bridge in between what was being seen in the
perception that was sort of tailored to everyone's experience. And
(35:19):
these experiences are always very personal, they are always sort
of tailored to individuals experiences. That's why so many synchronicities.
I think, well up in the wake of UFO experiences
because they're free those people, you know.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
So I really don't know. I don't, I'm not.
Speaker 5 (35:30):
I'm not going to say it's it's purely psychological, although
that is my disarming counterpoint. Whenever a skeptic talks to me,
I'm like, well, at the very least of it, if
it's all psychological, that tells us a lot about ourselves, right,
And there's a lot yeah, And they have to go, yeah,
I guess that's true, and then they go about their way.
If it comes from us, we are orders of magnitude,
more powerful than we think we are, and complicated, and
(35:53):
so again, a lot of what I try to when
I try to sit with these questions, I try to
think of them in ways that sort of take the
pressure off of things. And to me, that does take
the pressure.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
Off of us.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
My inner twelve year old wants there to be aliens
and Bigfoot and various Well, it's all these things, right,
But it is still miraculous if we are all hardwired
to generate certain archetypes. It is still miraculous if we
can unleash literal superhuman abilities in times of trauma and crisis,
it is still miraculous if I can project something that
(36:24):
both you and I see in the sky from myself,
that's still quite frankly an enchanted world, and it's a
world that I want to.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Live in, right Or is it a shared experience that
we're having that you're Are you putting that in my mind?
Are we somehow connected that way? There's so many ways
to go. Hey, you know, you just brought up synchronicities,
which is my absolute, very favorite thing because I know
that that's also real. So can you tell me how
do you interpret synchronicities?
Speaker 5 (36:48):
For the most part, I don't want to hear your syncreticities, right,
And what I mean by that is they are like dreams, right,
Like you know, my wife has very very vivid dreams.
I don't he tells me her dreams, and I love
her to death, but I generally start to is over right,
But here's the thing, because they're not for me, they're
for her. And similarly, I think a lot of synchronicities
are like that way, unless they're like really mind boggling
(37:10):
and very much.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
That's the whole point of it. Being a synchronisty compared
on contien is that the personalness of it.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
I guess what I'm saying is like people will hear
a series of numbers and then they'll start looking for
those numbers and it's you know, from somebody else because
that was their magical number. For synchronicities, Like, that's not
the way you do it. You have to find out.
You have to find your own significance on the face
out of the blue.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
That's the point of it. I think, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:33):
That's one one, one important thing. As far as what
they are, I think that they are sort of I'm
very much hew to the classic interpretation that there's signposts
that you're on the right track, that sort of thing,
Like I really resonate with that. But also I think
it's kind of like I think Young described this in
his essay on synchronicities, where he was talking about it's
almost like we live on the surface of the ocean
and out there's an island, but it isn't really an island,
(37:55):
Like the island is actually connected to this entire layer
of bedrock that's underneath this. At all times, we just
happen to see the island. And I think that that's
a lot of what we see with synchronicities as well,
but they have to have that sort of transformative quality
to an individual that's really personalized, or else I don't
think it's as important. So yeah, don't go looking for
other people synchronicities. Well no, no, no, or it's got
(38:18):
that's to me. The point is that it's just so
unique to you that only I have this memory and
only I. Yeah, that's what's so amazing. In your view,
are UFO encounters more likely solely technological events or technological
events with biologics or continued folkloric events like we've talked
about through history, or are they consciousness based or something
(38:41):
completely different altogether. I think we need another overhaul of
our thinking. We deal with a false binary of reality, right,
real or true or false? Internal, external, psychic, physical. I
think that it's overdue for an overhaul. But I also
think we need to sort of redefine technology. Ayahuasca is
a technology. You know, hundreds of thousands of speed shoes
of vines in the Amazon River basin, and they just
(39:02):
happened to find the ones that work together where you
get an amo inhibitor that combines so that you can
actually make DMT orally active like that. That's a technology,
but we don't think of it that way because it
doesn't involve silica and microchips.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Right.
Speaker 5 (39:13):
So that's the first part. I think that these things
can be all these things at once too, And I
know that sounds like a slippery Weasley answer, but let
me explain right quick. The first thing that I would
say is that the idea of a static afterlife is
mostly a modern Western sort of concept. If you look
at ancient Egypt or even ancient China, there was this
idea that you would go to the afterlife and like
the afterlife was capable of progress too. You know, you
(39:36):
had to get up and go to work, and you
could build machines and all sorts of stuff. There have
been illusions that UFOs are afterlife technology, technology built in
the afterlife to come over here. I know that sounds wild,
but this is more or less what Whitley Strieber talked
about with his implant and his eye. That it was
designed by Constantine Roudeve, who is an EDP expert who
(39:57):
had passed away route. They designed it in the afterlife
and somehow it wound up in Whitley's eye, Right, But do.
Speaker 4 (40:03):
You think there's a physical world in the afterlife or
is it all etherical?
Speaker 5 (40:07):
I think that that's a false starter of a question too, Like,
I'm not really sure that.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Do you criticize my questions all day long?
Speaker 5 (40:14):
I'm kidding that Gus is the heart of that sort
of internal external thing, Like, I'm not sure really where
we draw that boundary to distinctly, right. So that's that's
one thing that I would say about this. But the
other thing that I would say too is that I'm
not denying that there's crash debris and there might even
be bodies, right, But I do think we need to
really sit back and interrogate the origins of those things. Right.
(40:35):
We're told that they don't originate on Earth, or if
they don't originate our solar system with this meta material,
but rarely does someone ever ask are they originating in
our reality? By which I mean, I think an argument
can be made that these things might be closer to
a ports from Poltergeist cases than they are crashed flying saucers.
I base that partially on the work of doctor Steve
Mira out of the UK. He did a study on
(40:57):
mugs that apported and disupported so then there was a
set of mugs that they had in a haunted house,
and they would vanish and then they would reappear. There
were molecular changes to the mug that had been taken
by the poultergeist and returned by the poltergeist. The salient
point there is that things that have come from another
place or been to that space come back changed at
(41:20):
the microscopic slash molecular level, which seems to be what
we're seeing a bit of with a ports.
Speaker 4 (41:26):
You know.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
I think that there's an argument to be made that
the ectoplasm that they used to see in seances back
in the nineteenth century looks a lot like the angel
hair that people used to find at flying saucer scigns. Right,
Both of them evaporated from sealed containers and were described
as wispy sometimes. So I think that this could come
from a lot of different places. And I'm circling back
around to that by saying that I think that whatever
(41:48):
this is is so strange that it challenges some basic
fundamental things that we assume, like, oh, is it ephemeral
or not ephemeral? I wonder if it doesn't reside in
something that looks a lot more like super position.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
You know, dude, this is all so tough to deal
with because we're dealing with an unknown and we can't
even test it, we can't even repeat it. You know.
At the end of the day, all of this just
speaks clearly to the idea that there is more to
our world than perhaps any of us realize, and we
need clear investigations with all the previous dogma attached. We're
out of time there, brother, but thank you so much
(42:22):
for coming on. I appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
Man. It was an absolute pleasure, and I'm looking forward
to seeing you a couple of months too soon.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
It's gonna be great. Man. Hey, if you guys want
to find Joshua, he's at Joshua Cutchen dot com. You
can find me on Twitter and Instagram at CD Underscore
Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out contact intheesert dot com.
Stay open minded and rational as we explore the unknown
right here. Funny iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Caroinal
Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Ay and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app. Or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
The Best of Coast to Coast AM News
Host
George Noory
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!