December 6, 2025 • 30 mins
It made big headlines this week after Travis Kelce pressed George Clooney on his claim that he and Amal haven’t fought in more than 10 years. Kelce went on to say that he and Taylor were in the same boat as George and Amal, claiming they haven’t fought in 2 1/2 years. Amy and T.J. researched what relationship experts and therapist have to say about this notion of never fighting, and turns out they all agree, one even saying it’s the worst thing an engaged couple can come to her saying before marriage.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, they're folks. It is Saturday, December sixth. Couples who
don't fight? Should we envy them? Should we feel sorry
for them? Should we be trying to be like them?
Is that the question? Today? Robes on this Saturday, Welcome
(00:23):
to this episode of Amy and TJ. Robes this idea.
It sounds great. Couples who don't fight. George Cloonian his.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Wife, they don't fight, sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Taylor Swift and her fiance Trevisent Derek, Travis Kelsey, they
don't fight.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
What would it be like to be them?
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Shouldn't we all aspire to that? Don't we all want
to avoid fighting with our significant other?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well? I think you just said it in a way
where the most important word of that last sentence you
uttered was avoid. Okay, because look, I yes, like everyone
who read the headlines this week, Travis Kelcey and George
Clooney talking on Travis's podcast about how neither one of
(01:13):
them fight with their significant other.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Now, this came out a while back with George Clooney
and the Mall Clooney right several months back, but they
said they have never once correct.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
He said, in the last ten years, to be specific,
they have not had one fight in the last ten years.
How does that sound to you?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I'm curious. I have questions that we will get into,
and one of those is what the definition of a
fight is? Are we all in agreement on what that is? Now?
Tell folks what and you got more specifics here? What
did Travis Kelsey say?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Okay? Actually have the exchange. So this happened actually this
week on Travis Kelsey's podcast with his brother, and they
had George Clooney on as a guest, and Travis actually
was pressing George Clooney about this comment he made earlier
this year that went viral where he said he has
(02:20):
not fought with his wife Aamal in more than ten years.
So he was like, come on, is that real? Like
he was pushing him, but at the same time, he
also admitted that he is in the same boat as
George Clooney. So here is what the back and forth was.
So he was pressing him and then he said, well,
(02:42):
it's only been two and a half years, and you're right,
I haven't gotten into an argument never once. Okay, that
is what Travis Kelsey said about his relationship with Taylor Swift.
I haven't gotten into an argument? Never wont Okay, we.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Need to get some base definitions and rules here what
we're talking about. Because the idea that two human beings
who spend that much time together home together don't have
a disagreement, it's impossible. That's fair, right, I.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Would think so?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
But he didn't say disagreement or fight. He said, haven't
gotten into an argument?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Argument?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Okay, he didn't say haven't gotten into a fight. He
actually used the word argument, which I think is different
than fight.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
What's the distinction between a fight and an argument?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I feel like an argument could be an exchange of
ideas that are not aligned with one another, you're disagreeing.
A fight, I feel like, might mean yelling or a
heated exchange or something that's emotional. An argument, I feel like,
could be a level headed disagreement.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Okay. Can a couple have a fight short of the emotion,
short of yelling, short of the things we are accustomed
to being a fight to somebody sleeping on a couch,
to being cold in the house for a little while.
Can you do that thing with a disagreement? Take out
(04:13):
all those elements, and do we not call it a fight?
Still is the disagreement of itself constitute a fight between
a couple.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I think this is semantics obviously, yes, and I so yes,
And that is what some people have asked, like they
want to know more, We need more information. Are you
saying you never disagree or are you saying it never
gets to a place where you actually have hurt feelings?
So either way, I find that to be almost surreal.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
You said that earlier hurt feelings is I think an
important element to a fight. Yes, no matter how calm
everybody is, if hurt feelings are involved with somebody you love,
where this is the fight?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Babe. You do not raise your voice, extremely rare. I
think maybe one time I've heard in three years and
it was only for a nanosecond, and you even apologize
for raising you You do not raise your voice. There
is no yelling or screaming when it comes to you.
There's no visceral emotional reaction coming from you. However, my
(05:21):
feelings have been incredibly hurt and your feelings have been hurt. Now, yes,
those are fights we have had. We have had fights.
I actually so I'm curious. I actually want to ask
you this. We haven't had this conversation ahead of time.
I was doing the math from the moment we were together.
How long before you would say we had our first
(05:42):
whatever fight disagreement where we both had hurt feelings and
were scared, like, oh no, this isn't going well. Three months,
that's exactly what? Yes? Yeah, so three months, Okay, we
are in agreement. That's amazing. I actually feel so comfort.
Didn't buy that. I actually was like d D doing
(06:04):
the math. I'm like, three months, yes, and so, yes,
we had our first disagreement, argument, fight, whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Holy hell? What have we done? Scared?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yes, I'm so scared. I thought I knew this person?
Who is this person? Why am I? Yes? Three months
to hear that? A very public couple who've had a
long history of other relationships, so it's not like their
newbies or young they don't know any better. Had been
(06:36):
together for two and a half years. You and I
have been together for three years, and they he said,
we have never gotten into an argument, and then he
doubled down, never once. That to me is a shocking statement.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
It is, but shouldn't that be something we all aspire to? Now?
Let me be flippant, Let me be the cynic Let
me be the social media, latrol out there, or you
look at this and you're dismissive. Well, of course, yet
your life is perfect. You're a super Bowl champion, you're
the biggest pop star in the world. Everything is taking
care of Everything is lovely. All you have to do
(07:12):
is focus on each other. That what is there to
disagree about? Which island we're going to go to, which
private resort is going to be rented out for us.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Money takes care of everything.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
It takes care of these these things. You are able
to live a charmed life and don't have challenges that
other relationships might, including we have to move here from
my job, our kids are gonna have to do this,
how are we gonna pay for this? We don't have
these problems. We don't even have problems with the holidays.
Do we go to your family and my family? No,
(07:42):
Let's just fly all of our families here to us.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Right, there's some amazing Greek island. Let's just all end
up there, right.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And I heard someone made that argument in an article
that was criticizing George Clooney. I was like, well, yeah,
I guess I wouldn't have an argument either from my
house on Lake Como. Yes, everything is great and it
could possibly be now for the sake of everybody else Robes,
(08:10):
this is not normal. This is not from the professional
in this field healthy.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Okay exactly. So I was fascinated by this. It is
important for me to say the next part of the
conversation that happened between Travis Kelcey and George Clooney.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Oh this what you filled me in the kitchen that
got us going. Yes, folks, we actually stopped each other.
We said stop talking because we got into it so
heated after you gave me this line that we said, Okay,
we need to go record right now.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I think this next line that came out of George
Clooney's mouth speaks volumes. And I actually and look, it's
not as if I want to feel like, see that's
not what I would one, but I actually want everyone
to actually take this in and consider this and ask
themselves if this is something that feels healthy or okay. So,
(09:12):
George went on to say that he doesn't pick fights
with his wife because it's futile. Here were his exact words.
You're never going to win the argument, so why even
get in it. And then Travis Kelsey responded with so true.
(09:32):
Your reaction, babe, Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Let me tone it down here for this reason, I
want to ask you first, you didn't just read it.
You saw you saw the clip, right, yes, so you
saw their demeanors and how this was delivered. Let me
ask you that for context. Was it coming off in
a joking manner? Just boys being boys kind of a thing?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes, it's guys kind of sharing their survey tips in
a way. Is what it felt like to me, Like
you're never gonna win the arguments, so I even get
into it. So true, it's that kind of a thing
like I In fact, but Travis has said in previous interviews,
and I think this is charming and Okay, he's talked
(10:18):
about how smart Taylor Swift is and how much smarter
she is than him, and how much he's learned from her.
I think that's awesome. I think the same thing about you, babe.
I have watched you, listen to you and can actually
take a step back and say, damn, I'm watching this
man who I am in awe of and respect tremendously,
(10:40):
and when he says something, it turns out almost always
to be true. And that has actually guided me in
moments where my ego might flare up, or I might think,
oh I want to and I'm like, you know what,
give it a beat. Let's see how it all unfolds.
Because I see his brain and I respect it, and
(11:01):
so in a weird way, I not that I would
stay silent to defer because I don't want to. I'm
avoiding a fight. But I actually admire your reasoning oftentimes
and your intellect and your patients in ways in some
ways that I don't I recognize I don't have. So
(11:22):
I heard Travis say that, and I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna give that to you. And that's really sweet
and cool that you respect Taylor enough or you're like,
you know what, even if I might think differently, he
defers in a sense because he's like I see her brilliance,
I see her intellect, and I'm like, you know what,
let me learn. That's really cool. I think actually, as
some like big you know, football player who probably has
(11:44):
a big ego and it is used to being the
big man on campus. The fact that he could say
that about his fiance, I think that's really cool and
I understand it to a point. However, it folks the throat, Yes, yes,
I think it is dangerous to avoid a conversation that
(12:06):
might be difficult because you don't think you're going to
win the conversation.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
I think everybody agrees with that. Right, they are giving
us a reason to have this conversation and a reminder,
it's fine, I just want to I don't know. Actually,
we don't know anything about their actual relationships. The only
thing we know is what they've told us. Correct and
so if they're telling us this and again, they could
have been in a joking manner. But it did get
(12:33):
a lot of people's attention, and it got a lot
of people talking about this very thing. And I think
we look at these couples and I think these are
two couples. If you would ask people in the world
who you aspire to be like, these are perfect couples,
perfect beautiful, jet setting, celebrity, wonderful lives, right, you would
(12:55):
want to be like them. And now to hear the
relationships are the relationships are perfect? Broke?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It is. It could be aspirational and it could be
annoying like it's hashtag couple goals, but also could feel
defeating if you're not in that relationship. If you fight
all the time with your significant other, if you're constantly
feeling like you're not jibing when you see and you hear.
(13:24):
So it's one thing to see it on Instagram and
to see it on the red carpet and to see
it in video and what but to hear them say
we never fight, that can actually be really depressing and
hard to take in, Like, really, your gorgeous, you're rich,
(13:44):
and your relationships perfect. That's tough. And so it inspired
us to do a deeper dive on what the experts
think about this notion of couples who say, and that's
all we can base it on, say they never argue,
(14:06):
they never fight. What do the experts say about that
kind of relationship? There is a consensus consensus, babe. I
have not found one licensed educated psychologist, psychiatrist, couples therapists
who believes that that is actually a sign of a
(14:30):
healthy relationship. Welcome back everyone. We are talking about those
perfect couples who just don't fight. And we're not saying
don't fight a lot. We're saying don't fight ever, never,
(14:53):
not once, not once. George and Lamal Clooney say in
ten years, never fought, never fight, single fight and now
we're hearing the Taylor Swift and Travis Kelcey in their
entire two and a half year very public relationship. Travis
Kelcey said, they have never once gotten into an argument.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Why, Well, for me, that reads for them, I could
say George and them all not necessarily, but that reads
for some reason for Travis.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
And do you want to believe that? Is that something
to aspire to?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I don't know. I've learned so much about you through conflict.
I've learned it. You are not I've learned a lot
about me. You are not who you are in your
good times. It is who you are in that difficult
in that trench, in that in those moments where you're challenged,
and sometimes you're challenged in a relationship by the one
(15:51):
you love and you need it like you need it
because it's going to come. There's going to be a
moment that you don't chewse that's going to challenge your
relationship and you have to know how to deal with that.
Travis and Taylor are going to get challenged at some point.
(16:11):
There's going to be some awkward something is going to
come up, and it has already. How they deal with it,
I don't know, But that's just the reality of relationships.
I don't give a damn who you are so sure
if you say you haven't fought, haven't had an argument,
I'm telling you it's impossible for two human beings to
(16:32):
be together for ten years and not have a disagreement. Now,
if it leads to an argument or a fight, I
don't know. But obviously they haven't been in one hundred
percent agreement on everything for ten years.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
And I'm not trying to not believe them. But I
also would say this, First of all, there are a
couple of things. How do you define an argument?
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Or a disagreement or a fight?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
We disagree every day?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yes, we agree every day exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
You don't fight every three months even.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
We, I would say, would you agree we have not
had a fight in six months?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I can't remember the last one.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I can't It was in June.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
What is it about?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I don't want to get into it all that I win,
But I would say that I have watched you, and
I have obviously witnessed myself choose to stay open and
to not be immediately defensive, and to learn and to
(17:39):
try to understand where the other person's coming from, and
that is on a fight that is actually progress, but
it only comes through disagreement or an acknowledgment of something
you weren't aware of, And when the other person who
you love and respect brings it up in a respectful way,
you can grow and get closer and understand each other better.
(18:02):
I would not say that as an argument. That is
just a willingness to be open to recognizing that maybe
the way you do things rub somebody else the wrong way.
So if they've only if they've managed to just do that,
that's remarkable. We're there now, and I hope we stay there.
(18:23):
I'm sure there will be another fight. I hope. I
would love for there not to be. We've had enough
of them that I don't need any more, and I
am incentivized to recognize that if you say something, it matters,
and I need to pay attention and vice versa. I
hope where we respect where the other is coming from enough,
(18:45):
but it took a little while to get there. And
I would never think that we could go through the
rest of our lives without ever having another fight. That
would be a silly thing. I would be afraid to eat.
Put it out there. I wouldn't even want to be like, hey,
we haven't had a fight in six months, We're awesome.
(19:06):
Like I'd be like tomorrow, we're gonna be like having
the worst day ever. So I would want attend feint
like that.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
But who in your family have you not had a
fight with? Who in your life that you've known for
any period of time? Have you never gotten into a
conflict and argument what you would deem a fight? Everybody
you can name.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
You have done that with every person I have loved,
I have fought with ever.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So it's I is it aspiration? No, no, no you uh no, no,
get get into this. I asked you, this is there
a single give me? I said, find me, give me
the one person, the one professional out there who says
this is aspirational, this is good, this is okay. And
you shot that down and I didn't believe it.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I searched. I searched all day long to try and
find one professional who knows a lot more than we
do that would say this is a sign of a
good relationship. And I found quite the opposite. Look, And
I do think and I want to give Travison. We
want to give Travison. Taylor and George Lamaal credit like,
(20:14):
we don't know how they're defining it, so we don't know,
like this is zero judgment on them.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But indament yet, Is this sparked a conversation actually between
us and relationships?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yes, but I actually I found some really interesting and
I think this will make everybody feel better about their
own relationships, because that is part of it. This is
an unfair aspiration that I think we might impose on
ourselves because we hear things from Travis and George, thinking, shoot,
that's not how my relationship is. Maybe my relationship sucks.
(20:47):
I think the goal here is to make everybody feel
a little bit better about the fact that it's okay
to fight. In fact, a lot of therapists and most
psychologists will say it's a healthy thing to do. So
here's what psychology today. The therapist said, I read this,
and I think I read this aloud to you. We've
never had a fight. Honestly, this is one of the
(21:08):
most concerning things an engaged couple can ever share with
me during a marriage prep session. This is coming from
a therapist on psychology today. She said that they often say,
She'll here couples say this to her with big smiles tried,
and she's like, oh boy, we have a lot of
unpacking to do. Here's what she said, Here's what we
(21:28):
want you to know from a licensed therapist. Conflict is normal,
often necessary, and is a part of healthy relationships. Conflict
can be a catalyst for change, growth, and deeper intimacy.
Routinely avoiding conflict can actually backfire. And I agree with
(21:54):
all of that, And she says, certainly we don't want
couples in destructive conflicts or incessant back bickering, but when
we engage with it well, conflict can be a catalyst
for growth and connection. So we should not avoid conflict.
We should navigate the inevitable spats and misunderstandings more deftly.
(22:16):
I love that that makes sense because you and I
disagree probably multiple times during a.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Day, every single first you in the morning, we're arguing
about something.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
But the point is if I can say and get curious,
why why is he feeling this way, and not take
it personally, that's a big thing he is in his
you've got your thing. It probably has nothing to do
with me. But I think a lot of times as partners,
especially a couple who spends a lot of time together
like we do. Maybe the egotistical natural reaction is to
(22:49):
be like, is he saying I did something? Why is
he mad at me? What did I do? And you
start to and that is so the wrong way to
go about it. So you get into this place where
you can just get curious about your partner's situation and
try to be of help and not take things personally.
I have learned, I can say this. I have learned
(23:09):
so much being in a relationship with you. I love you,
I respect you, I like you, and I have been
willing in a way that I haven't ever before to
recognize my role in conflict. Isn't that part of it?
Like recognizing We all want to blame the other person.
(23:30):
But when you can take a step back and say,
what was my role in that conflict? It's life changing.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
In the words of Patrick Swayzey, ditto, that's also I
am rooting for both of these couples. I admire quite frankly,
both of these couples. And when I heard you know what,
I have been around enough, we have talked to enough
people in our lives that when I heard those things,
(24:00):
I didn't go, oh, that's cool. I said, well, wait
a minute, and again they just they could be saying
it just off the cop. We're not supposed to take
it that seriously, but it is a worthy conversation and
a thought to have about our own relationships. I love
that we don't fight. We just we don't love it too.
Disagree every single day about something we do. If we
(24:24):
have conflict, I guess it could be deemed conflict, but
it's resolved in such a way that it doesn't feel
like conflict. We have something every single day about the girls,
where the schedules go and who goes here? And when
are we flying there?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
And well we're eating for lunch, Like any a fight
could have ruped over.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Anything, and just it today got crazy for us in
a lot of ways where I had to go here
and you had to go there, and I didn't want
to do this, and you and I had a plan
and it got messed up and it happens. We just
we have learned how to resolved conflict as soon as
we recognize it. And there's something in that to where
(25:07):
you know, what if people asked us, if we were
in the middle of an interview, we might sound like them.
We might sound exactly like George and them all, Travis and.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Taylor, but we would never say we don't fight. We
might maybe in five years that would be awesome, but
it only came through fighting and through Seriously, when you
go through a fight and it's painful as hell, you're like,
I do not what can I do to make sure
(25:38):
this doesn't happen? And it's not about it and it's
not about avoidance, because that was the only red flag
I saw. And granted, he might have just been saying
this off the cuff and it's not. It's not when
he said, you're never gonna win the argument, so why
get in it? That made me a little freaked out
because I just want to point out, like, and again,
that might have just been some funny, little anecdotal thing
(25:59):
he said, but I do heard it.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But you heard it. You didn't just read it, right.
I heard it, So how did it come across?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
It's hard to know how what the level of depth
was in it, but I do. I do think it's
important to say this because this came from another therapist
who I thought was brilliant online. I actually said I
want to get her on the podcast. Yes, I loved her.
She's out of South Carolina. This was really cool, and
I think this might resonate for a lot of people.
(26:28):
Many people hold back because they don't want to rock
the boat. They fear being rejected, They worry about pushing
their partner away. They assume their needs won't matter if
they speak up. But choosing silence can feel initially like
a way to protect the relationship, but in reality, it
(26:49):
keeps partners from truly knowing one another, and silence can
mean avoidance, unmet needs, and growing distance between partners. So resentment, disconnection,
unraveling of intimacy, those are all the things that can
happen if you don't speak up. Now. Look, I know
it's always some you're like, is this worth saying something about?
(27:12):
Is this worth me pointing out? But I do think
if you honor how you're feeling and you say it
in a respectful way, you've been really good about this.
Like explain to me, hey, babe, I know you and
I love you. But when you say this it can
come off as this. And if you just say things
the right way, it can still be painful to hear
and receive, But coming from a person you love who's
(27:34):
saying it in a loving way, you can actually say, Okay,
I get it, I hear you, and I love you,
and I don't want you to ever feel that way again.
And so that's maybe a disagreement, but it's something where
there is an understanding and you some one person has
to speak up. If you don't say anything, avoidance is
(28:02):
Apathy is the opposite of love.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Oh man. If you get to apathy, and.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
That is the path you end up on when you
don't speak up.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Sometimes you're right. I have learned more about you through
our disagreements than anything, and it helps me understand you
and quite frankly, love you differently, and quite frankly a
way that's necessary vulnerability, recognize some things in those moments.
So it's look, I'm rooting certainly for these couples. But
(28:34):
it was so interesting, and I think that was the
line that set me off when you told me the
George Claney line about why even bother you're gonna lose anyway,
You said you knew it because you actually set me up.
You said what you think about that, That's actually how
you said to me, So you knew it was gonna
you knew how it was gonna react.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
You're the opposite of that, and I respect the hell
out of that. So just remember that, guys, if you
say it in the right way and you say it
with love, it might sting initially, but I do think
that is the best way forward, because we're all learning,
aren't we all? So anyway, I just I thought it
was important we were just Look, we'd all love to
(29:15):
have a relationship where we didn't fight with our loved
one but.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Or and had houses only como.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Private planese people to cook and clean for us at all.
That might ease some of the argument that we envy
them more than just for the not fighting, is what
I'm saying. Oh but anyway, we hope that well, I know,
I guess everyone just feels maybe not so alone and
feels seen and heard. We've definitely fought, and we know
(29:45):
you probably do too, but hopefully it's with love and
understanding and without everyone. Thank you so much for listening
to us. I made me robock alongside DJ Holmes. We'll
talk to you soon, y
Hey, they're folks. It is Saturday, December sixth. Couples who
don't fight? Should we envy them? Should we feel sorry
for them? Should we be trying to be like them?
Is that the question? Today? Robes on this Saturday, Welcome
(00:23):
to this episode of Amy and TJ. Robes this idea.
It sounds great. Couples who don't fight. George Cloonian his.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Wife, they don't fight, sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Taylor Swift and her fiance Trevisent Derek, Travis Kelsey, they
don't fight.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
What would it be like to be them?
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Shouldn't we all aspire to that? Don't we all want
to avoid fighting with our significant other?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well? I think you just said it in a way
where the most important word of that last sentence you
uttered was avoid. Okay, because look, I yes, like everyone
who read the headlines this week, Travis Kelcey and George
Clooney talking on Travis's podcast about how neither one of
(01:13):
them fight with their significant other.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Now, this came out a while back with George Clooney
and the Mall Clooney right several months back, but they
said they have never once correct.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
He said, in the last ten years, to be specific,
they have not had one fight in the last ten years.
How does that sound to you?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I'm curious. I have questions that we will get into,
and one of those is what the definition of a
fight is? Are we all in agreement on what that is? Now?
Tell folks what and you got more specifics here? What
did Travis Kelsey say?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Okay? Actually have the exchange. So this happened actually this
week on Travis Kelsey's podcast with his brother, and they
had George Clooney on as a guest, and Travis actually
was pressing George Clooney about this comment he made earlier
this year that went viral where he said he has
(02:20):
not fought with his wife Aamal in more than ten years.
So he was like, come on, is that real? Like
he was pushing him, but at the same time, he
also admitted that he is in the same boat as
George Clooney. So here is what the back and forth was.
So he was pressing him and then he said, well,
(02:42):
it's only been two and a half years, and you're right,
I haven't gotten into an argument never once. Okay, that
is what Travis Kelsey said about his relationship with Taylor Swift.
I haven't gotten into an argument? Never wont Okay, we.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Need to get some base definitions and rules here what
we're talking about. Because the idea that two human beings
who spend that much time together home together don't have
a disagreement, it's impossible. That's fair, right, I.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Would think so?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
But he didn't say disagreement or fight. He said, haven't
gotten into an argument?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Argument?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Okay, he didn't say haven't gotten into a fight. He
actually used the word argument, which I think is different
than fight.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
What's the distinction between a fight and an argument?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I feel like an argument could be an exchange of
ideas that are not aligned with one another, you're disagreeing.
A fight, I feel like, might mean yelling or a
heated exchange or something that's emotional. An argument, I feel like,
could be a level headed disagreement.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Okay. Can a couple have a fight short of the emotion,
short of yelling, short of the things we are accustomed
to being a fight to somebody sleeping on a couch,
to being cold in the house for a little while.
Can you do that thing with a disagreement? Take out
(04:13):
all those elements, and do we not call it a fight?
Still is the disagreement of itself constitute a fight between
a couple.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I think this is semantics obviously, yes, and I so yes,
And that is what some people have asked, like they
want to know more, We need more information. Are you
saying you never disagree or are you saying it never
gets to a place where you actually have hurt feelings?
So either way, I find that to be almost surreal.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
You said that earlier hurt feelings is I think an
important element to a fight. Yes, no matter how calm
everybody is, if hurt feelings are involved with somebody you love,
where this is the fight?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Babe. You do not raise your voice, extremely rare. I
think maybe one time I've heard in three years and
it was only for a nanosecond, and you even apologize
for raising you You do not raise your voice. There
is no yelling or screaming when it comes to you.
There's no visceral emotional reaction coming from you. However, my
(05:21):
feelings have been incredibly hurt and your feelings have been hurt. Now, yes,
those are fights we have had. We have had fights.
I actually so I'm curious. I actually want to ask
you this. We haven't had this conversation ahead of time.
I was doing the math from the moment we were together.
How long before you would say we had our first
(05:42):
whatever fight disagreement where we both had hurt feelings and
were scared, like, oh no, this isn't going well. Three months,
that's exactly what? Yes? Yeah, so three months, Okay, we
are in agreement. That's amazing. I actually feel so comfort.
Didn't buy that. I actually was like d D doing
(06:04):
the math. I'm like, three months, yes, and so, yes,
we had our first disagreement, argument, fight, whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Holy hell? What have we done? Scared?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yes, I'm so scared. I thought I knew this person?
Who is this person? Why am I? Yes? Three months
to hear that? A very public couple who've had a
long history of other relationships, so it's not like their
newbies or young they don't know any better. Had been
(06:36):
together for two and a half years. You and I
have been together for three years, and they he said,
we have never gotten into an argument, and then he
doubled down, never once. That to me is a shocking statement.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
It is, but shouldn't that be something we all aspire to? Now?
Let me be flippant, Let me be the cynic Let
me be the social media, latrol out there, or you
look at this and you're dismissive. Well, of course, yet
your life is perfect. You're a super Bowl champion, you're
the biggest pop star in the world. Everything is taking
care of Everything is lovely. All you have to do
(07:12):
is focus on each other. That what is there to
disagree about? Which island we're going to go to, which
private resort is going to be rented out for us.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Money takes care of everything.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
It takes care of these these things. You are able
to live a charmed life and don't have challenges that
other relationships might, including we have to move here from
my job, our kids are gonna have to do this,
how are we gonna pay for this? We don't have
these problems. We don't even have problems with the holidays.
Do we go to your family and my family? No,
(07:42):
Let's just fly all of our families here to us.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Right, there's some amazing Greek island. Let's just all end
up there, right.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And I heard someone made that argument in an article
that was criticizing George Clooney. I was like, well, yeah,
I guess I wouldn't have an argument either from my
house on Lake Como. Yes, everything is great and it
could possibly be now for the sake of everybody else Robes,
(08:10):
this is not normal. This is not from the professional
in this field healthy.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Okay exactly. So I was fascinated by this. It is
important for me to say the next part of the
conversation that happened between Travis Kelcey and George Clooney.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Oh this what you filled me in the kitchen that
got us going. Yes, folks, we actually stopped each other.
We said stop talking because we got into it so
heated after you gave me this line that we said, Okay,
we need to go record right now.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I think this next line that came out of George
Clooney's mouth speaks volumes. And I actually and look, it's
not as if I want to feel like, see that's
not what I would one, but I actually want everyone
to actually take this in and consider this and ask
themselves if this is something that feels healthy or okay. So,
(09:12):
George went on to say that he doesn't pick fights
with his wife because it's futile. Here were his exact words.
You're never going to win the argument, so why even
get in it. And then Travis Kelsey responded with so true.
(09:32):
Your reaction, babe, Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Let me tone it down here for this reason, I
want to ask you first, you didn't just read it.
You saw you saw the clip, right, yes, so you
saw their demeanors and how this was delivered. Let me
ask you that for context. Was it coming off in
a joking manner? Just boys being boys kind of a thing?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes, it's guys kind of sharing their survey tips in
a way. Is what it felt like to me, Like
you're never gonna win the arguments, so I even get
into it. So true, it's that kind of a thing
like I In fact, but Travis has said in previous interviews,
and I think this is charming and Okay, he's talked
(10:18):
about how smart Taylor Swift is and how much smarter
she is than him, and how much he's learned from her.
I think that's awesome. I think the same thing about you, babe.
I have watched you, listen to you and can actually
take a step back and say, damn, I'm watching this
man who I am in awe of and respect tremendously,
(10:40):
and when he says something, it turns out almost always
to be true. And that has actually guided me in
moments where my ego might flare up, or I might think,
oh I want to and I'm like, you know what,
give it a beat. Let's see how it all unfolds.
Because I see his brain and I respect it, and
(11:01):
so in a weird way, I not that I would
stay silent to defer because I don't want to. I'm
avoiding a fight. But I actually admire your reasoning oftentimes
and your intellect and your patients in ways in some
ways that I don't I recognize I don't have. So
(11:22):
I heard Travis say that, and I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna give that to you. And that's really sweet
and cool that you respect Taylor enough or you're like,
you know what, even if I might think differently, he
defers in a sense because he's like I see her brilliance,
I see her intellect, and I'm like, you know what,
let me learn. That's really cool. I think actually, as
some like big you know, football player who probably has
(11:44):
a big ego and it is used to being the
big man on campus. The fact that he could say
that about his fiance, I think that's really cool and
I understand it to a point. However, it folks the throat, Yes, yes,
I think it is dangerous to avoid a conversation that
(12:06):
might be difficult because you don't think you're going to
win the conversation.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
I think everybody agrees with that. Right, they are giving
us a reason to have this conversation and a reminder,
it's fine, I just want to I don't know. Actually,
we don't know anything about their actual relationships. The only
thing we know is what they've told us. Correct and
so if they're telling us this and again, they could
have been in a joking manner. But it did get
(12:33):
a lot of people's attention, and it got a lot
of people talking about this very thing. And I think
we look at these couples and I think these are
two couples. If you would ask people in the world
who you aspire to be like, these are perfect couples,
perfect beautiful, jet setting, celebrity, wonderful lives, right, you would
(12:55):
want to be like them. And now to hear the
relationships are the relationships are perfect? Broke?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
It is. It could be aspirational and it could be
annoying like it's hashtag couple goals, but also could feel
defeating if you're not in that relationship. If you fight
all the time with your significant other, if you're constantly
feeling like you're not jibing when you see and you hear.
(13:24):
So it's one thing to see it on Instagram and
to see it on the red carpet and to see
it in video and what but to hear them say
we never fight, that can actually be really depressing and
hard to take in, Like, really, your gorgeous, you're rich,
(13:44):
and your relationships perfect. That's tough. And so it inspired
us to do a deeper dive on what the experts
think about this notion of couples who say, and that's
all we can base it on, say they never argue,
(14:06):
they never fight. What do the experts say about that
kind of relationship? There is a consensus consensus, babe. I
have not found one licensed educated psychologist, psychiatrist, couples therapists
who believes that that is actually a sign of a
(14:30):
healthy relationship. Welcome back everyone. We are talking about those
perfect couples who just don't fight. And we're not saying
don't fight a lot. We're saying don't fight ever, never,
(14:53):
not once, not once. George and Lamal Clooney say in
ten years, never fought, never fight, single fight and now
we're hearing the Taylor Swift and Travis Kelcey in their
entire two and a half year very public relationship. Travis
Kelcey said, they have never once gotten into an argument.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Why, Well, for me, that reads for them, I could
say George and them all not necessarily, but that reads
for some reason for Travis.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
And do you want to believe that? Is that something
to aspire to?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I don't know. I've learned so much about you through conflict.
I've learned it. You are not I've learned a lot
about me. You are not who you are in your
good times. It is who you are in that difficult
in that trench, in that in those moments where you're challenged,
and sometimes you're challenged in a relationship by the one
(15:51):
you love and you need it like you need it
because it's going to come. There's going to be a
moment that you don't chewse that's going to challenge your
relationship and you have to know how to deal with that.
Travis and Taylor are going to get challenged at some point.
(16:11):
There's going to be some awkward something is going to
come up, and it has already. How they deal with it,
I don't know, But that's just the reality of relationships.
I don't give a damn who you are so sure
if you say you haven't fought, haven't had an argument,
I'm telling you it's impossible for two human beings to
(16:32):
be together for ten years and not have a disagreement. Now,
if it leads to an argument or a fight, I
don't know. But obviously they haven't been in one hundred
percent agreement on everything for ten years.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
And I'm not trying to not believe them. But I
also would say this, First of all, there are a
couple of things. How do you define an argument?
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Or a disagreement or a fight?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
We disagree every day?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yes, we agree every day exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
You don't fight every three months even.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
We, I would say, would you agree we have not
had a fight in six months?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I can't remember the last one.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I can't It was in June.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
What is it about?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I don't want to get into it all that I win,
But I would say that I have watched you, and
I have obviously witnessed myself choose to stay open and
to not be immediately defensive, and to learn and to
(17:39):
try to understand where the other person's coming from, and
that is on a fight that is actually progress, but
it only comes through disagreement or an acknowledgment of something
you weren't aware of, And when the other person who
you love and respect brings it up in a respectful way,
you can grow and get closer and understand each other better.
(18:02):
I would not say that as an argument. That is
just a willingness to be open to recognizing that maybe
the way you do things rub somebody else the wrong way.
So if they've only if they've managed to just do that,
that's remarkable. We're there now, and I hope we stay there.
(18:23):
I'm sure there will be another fight. I hope. I
would love for there not to be. We've had enough
of them that I don't need any more, and I
am incentivized to recognize that if you say something, it matters,
and I need to pay attention and vice versa. I
hope where we respect where the other is coming from enough,
(18:45):
but it took a little while to get there. And
I would never think that we could go through the
rest of our lives without ever having another fight. That
would be a silly thing. I would be afraid to eat.
Put it out there. I wouldn't even want to be like, hey,
we haven't had a fight in six months, We're awesome.
(19:06):
Like I'd be like tomorrow, we're gonna be like having
the worst day ever. So I would want attend feint
like that.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
But who in your family have you not had a
fight with? Who in your life that you've known for
any period of time? Have you never gotten into a
conflict and argument what you would deem a fight? Everybody
you can name.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
You have done that with every person I have loved,
I have fought with ever.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So it's I is it aspiration? No, no, no you uh no, no,
get get into this. I asked you, this is there
a single give me? I said, find me, give me
the one person, the one professional out there who says
this is aspirational, this is good, this is okay. And
you shot that down and I didn't believe it.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
I searched. I searched all day long to try and
find one professional who knows a lot more than we
do that would say this is a sign of a
good relationship. And I found quite the opposite. Look, And
I do think and I want to give Travison. We
want to give Travison. Taylor and George Lamaal credit like,
(20:14):
we don't know how they're defining it, so we don't know,
like this is zero judgment on them.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But indament yet, Is this sparked a conversation actually between
us and relationships?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yes, but I actually I found some really interesting and
I think this will make everybody feel better about their
own relationships, because that is part of it. This is
an unfair aspiration that I think we might impose on
ourselves because we hear things from Travis and George, thinking, shoot,
that's not how my relationship is. Maybe my relationship sucks.
(20:47):
I think the goal here is to make everybody feel
a little bit better about the fact that it's okay
to fight. In fact, a lot of therapists and most
psychologists will say it's a healthy thing to do. So
here's what psychology today. The therapist said, I read this,
and I think I read this aloud to you. We've
never had a fight. Honestly, this is one of the
(21:08):
most concerning things an engaged couple can ever share with
me during a marriage prep session. This is coming from
a therapist on psychology today. She said that they often say,
She'll here couples say this to her with big smiles tried,
and she's like, oh boy, we have a lot of
unpacking to do. Here's what she said, Here's what we
(21:28):
want you to know from a licensed therapist. Conflict is normal,
often necessary, and is a part of healthy relationships. Conflict
can be a catalyst for change, growth, and deeper intimacy.
Routinely avoiding conflict can actually backfire. And I agree with
(21:54):
all of that, And she says, certainly we don't want
couples in destructive conflicts or incessant back bickering, but when
we engage with it well, conflict can be a catalyst
for growth and connection. So we should not avoid conflict.
We should navigate the inevitable spats and misunderstandings more deftly.
(22:16):
I love that that makes sense because you and I
disagree probably multiple times during a.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Day, every single first you in the morning, we're arguing
about something.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
But the point is if I can say and get curious,
why why is he feeling this way, and not take
it personally, that's a big thing he is in his
you've got your thing. It probably has nothing to do
with me. But I think a lot of times as partners,
especially a couple who spends a lot of time together
like we do. Maybe the egotistical natural reaction is to
(22:49):
be like, is he saying I did something? Why is
he mad at me? What did I do? And you
start to and that is so the wrong way to
go about it. So you get into this place where
you can just get curious about your partner's situation and
try to be of help and not take things personally.
I have learned, I can say this. I have learned
(23:09):
so much being in a relationship with you. I love you,
I respect you, I like you, and I have been
willing in a way that I haven't ever before to
recognize my role in conflict. Isn't that part of it?
Like recognizing We all want to blame the other person.
(23:30):
But when you can take a step back and say,
what was my role in that conflict? It's life changing.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
In the words of Patrick Swayzey, ditto, that's also I
am rooting for both of these couples. I admire quite frankly,
both of these couples. And when I heard you know what,
I have been around enough, we have talked to enough
people in our lives that when I heard those things,
(24:00):
I didn't go, oh, that's cool. I said, well, wait
a minute, and again they just they could be saying
it just off the cop. We're not supposed to take
it that seriously, but it is a worthy conversation and
a thought to have about our own relationships. I love
that we don't fight. We just we don't love it too.
Disagree every single day about something we do. If we
(24:24):
have conflict, I guess it could be deemed conflict, but
it's resolved in such a way that it doesn't feel
like conflict. We have something every single day about the girls,
where the schedules go and who goes here? And when
are we flying there?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
And well we're eating for lunch, Like any a fight
could have ruped over.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Anything, and just it today got crazy for us in
a lot of ways where I had to go here
and you had to go there, and I didn't want
to do this, and you and I had a plan
and it got messed up and it happens. We just
we have learned how to resolved conflict as soon as
we recognize it. And there's something in that to where
(25:07):
you know, what if people asked us, if we were
in the middle of an interview, we might sound like them.
We might sound exactly like George and them all, Travis and.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Taylor, but we would never say we don't fight. We
might maybe in five years that would be awesome, but
it only came through fighting and through Seriously, when you
go through a fight and it's painful as hell, you're like,
I do not what can I do to make sure
(25:38):
this doesn't happen? And it's not about it and it's
not about avoidance, because that was the only red flag
I saw. And granted, he might have just been saying
this off the cuff and it's not. It's not when
he said, you're never gonna win the argument, so why
get in it? That made me a little freaked out
because I just want to point out, like, and again,
that might have just been some funny, little anecdotal thing
(25:59):
he said, but I do heard it.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But you heard it. You didn't just read it, right.
I heard it, So how did it come across?
Speaker 2 (26:06):
It's hard to know how what the level of depth
was in it, but I do. I do think it's
important to say this because this came from another therapist
who I thought was brilliant online. I actually said I
want to get her on the podcast. Yes, I loved her.
She's out of South Carolina. This was really cool, and
I think this might resonate for a lot of people.
(26:28):
Many people hold back because they don't want to rock
the boat. They fear being rejected, They worry about pushing
their partner away. They assume their needs won't matter if
they speak up. But choosing silence can feel initially like
a way to protect the relationship, but in reality, it
(26:49):
keeps partners from truly knowing one another, and silence can
mean avoidance, unmet needs, and growing distance between partners. So resentment, disconnection,
unraveling of intimacy, those are all the things that can
happen if you don't speak up. Now. Look, I know
it's always some you're like, is this worth saying something about?
(27:12):
Is this worth me pointing out? But I do think
if you honor how you're feeling and you say it
in a respectful way, you've been really good about this.
Like explain to me, hey, babe, I know you and
I love you. But when you say this it can
come off as this. And if you just say things
the right way, it can still be painful to hear
and receive, But coming from a person you love who's
(27:34):
saying it in a loving way, you can actually say, Okay,
I get it, I hear you, and I love you,
and I don't want you to ever feel that way again.
And so that's maybe a disagreement, but it's something where
there is an understanding and you some one person has
to speak up. If you don't say anything, avoidance is
(28:02):
Apathy is the opposite of love.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Oh man. If you get to apathy, and.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
That is the path you end up on when you
don't speak up.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Sometimes you're right. I have learned more about you through
our disagreements than anything, and it helps me understand you
and quite frankly, love you differently, and quite frankly a
way that's necessary vulnerability, recognize some things in those moments.
So it's look, I'm rooting certainly for these couples. But
(28:34):
it was so interesting, and I think that was the
line that set me off when you told me the
George Claney line about why even bother you're gonna lose anyway,
You said you knew it because you actually set me up.
You said what you think about that, That's actually how
you said to me, So you knew it was gonna
you knew how it was gonna react.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
You're the opposite of that, and I respect the hell
out of that. So just remember that, guys, if you
say it in the right way and you say it
with love, it might sting initially, but I do think
that is the best way forward, because we're all learning,
aren't we all? So anyway, I just I thought it
was important we were just Look, we'd all love to
(29:15):
have a relationship where we didn't fight with our loved
one but.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Or and had houses only como.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Private planese people to cook and clean for us at all.
That might ease some of the argument that we envy
them more than just for the not fighting, is what
I'm saying. Oh but anyway, we hope that well, I know,
I guess everyone just feels maybe not so alone and
feels seen and heard. We've definitely fought, and we know
(29:45):
you probably do too, but hopefully it's with love and
understanding and without everyone. Thank you so much for listening
to us. I made me robock alongside DJ Holmes. We'll
talk to you soon, y
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In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
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