March 10, 2026 • 52 mins
Why does it feel harder than ever to stay connected—to friends, partners, and even family?
What’s the difference between healthy boundaries and emotional disconnection?
Can you heal, grow, and still need other people?
And what if needing support is actually a sign of strength—not failure?
In this episode of A Really Good Cry, Radhi sits down with therapist, bestselling author, and boundaries expert Nedra Glover Tawwab for a powerful conversation about connection, dependency, and what it truly means to be in healthy relationships.
Together, they explore why modern self-care culture can sometimes push us toward isolation, how hyper-independence shows up in everyday life, and why healing doesn’t happen alone. Nedra breaks down the dependency spectrum—from codependency to emotional avoidance—and explains how true interdependence allows us to grow without losing ourselves.
From friendships and romantic relationships to attachment styles, expectations, and conflict, this episode is a grounded reminder that boundaries aren’t meant to separate us—they’re meant to help us stay connected.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why loneliness is rising despite increased self-awareness
- The difference between codependency, enmeshment, and hyper-independence
- What healthy dependency actually looks like in real life
- How attachment styles affect relationships—and why they don’t define you
- Why not every relationship should carry the same expectations
- How to communicate needs without guilt or avoidance
- The difference between solitude and isolation
- Why small moments of intentional connection matter more than you think
This is your reminder that you’re not meant to do life alone.
That relationships are allowed to be imperfect.
And that healing, boundaries, and connection can exist at the same time.
You’re allowed to need people.
You’re allowed to ask for help.
And you’re allowed to stay connected—without losing yourself.
Follow Nedra:
https://www.nedratawwab.com/
https://www.instagram.com/nedratawwab/
https://www.threads.com/@nedratawwab
https://www.facebook.com/nedratawwab/
Order Nedra’s book here: https://www.nedratawwab.com/books/the-balancing-act
Follow Radhi:
https://www.instagram.com/radhidevlukia/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxWe9A4kMf9V_AHOXkGhCzQ
https://www.facebook.com/radhidevlukia1/
https://www.tiktok.com/@radhidevlukia
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's behind Beyonce A whole lot of help being self made?
It sounds really strong. We are starting to see some
people who have been highly functioning on their own sort
of crash.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Nedra is a licensed therapist with a community of over
two million on Instagram. She reaches the global audience each
week through her podcast You Need to Hear This. In
her newest book, The Balancing Act, Nedra offers a roadmap
to creating relationships that on a both dependency and individuality.
Tell me what a healthy, wonderful, not codependent relationship looks like.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
We're not very flexible with people. When people have a limitation,
it doesn't mean gosh, I got it in the relationship
with this person. A conflict free relationship isn't healthy because
that means you don't talk about anything. Yeah, so some
conflict is good for the relationship. You have to question
the experience of being with the one. Maybe this was
one of the ones. There may be another one. You
(00:55):
got your ones mixed up. I don't know what the
universe has for you, but today this is the two
right the one.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm radi wkah and on my podcast A Really Good Cry,
we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space
for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you
to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together. Noda,
thank you so much for being here. I deeply enjoyed
reading your book. I felt like I learned so much
(01:24):
from it. So first I just want to say thank
you for being here and blessing us with your presence.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Thank you for having me. This is this is going
to be good. I feel the calmness entering my spirit.
You actually really have that energy.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
As soon as you walked in and I was in
your sphere of energy, I was like, Wow, she's a
very calm person and I really appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So thanks for bringing that here. You're welcome. I wanted
to ask you just to start off.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So I know you've already had two incredible books that
have come out, both on different topics. What brought you
to write this book and why this topic in particular.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, So, what I'm noticing now with some of my
clients is more disconnection in their relationships. And I think
when we seek boundaries and we seek healing, and we
seek all these things, it needs to be in tandem
with connection. And so it's very important to me to say, hey,
(02:22):
we could be dependent in healthy ways. We don't have
to erase everything. We don't have to reject all things
or have these you know, strong rules about stuff in
every situation. We have to be flexible because being connected
leads to better mental health, longer life span, all sorts
(02:43):
of things. But it's positive for us to have these connections.
And I see that we're losing them.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
And obviously you've had you've had many clients, and you've
done this for such a long time. What are you
noticing or what past things are you noticing that people
are having that is causing this disconnection.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I think people are more self aware and maybe a
little less sometimes other tolerating. Okay, right, so I'm more
self aware and the things that people won't change or
haven't change is annoying. Now, there are some things that
I think we can all agree are toxic, unhealthy, abusive,
(03:21):
But then there are other things where it's like you
may have a friend where you need to just have
a conversation with them and say, hey, you can't call
me seven times today, I'm not available. It doesn't mean
the relationship needs to end or you need to confront them.
But it's just like I'm not available that much. I
have a busy work schedule. I will, you know, maybe
chat with you when I'm done, but you know, reassuring people,
(03:44):
letting them know that you want to be in a
relationship and it's still important to you. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I feel like sometimes it's really difficult to know whether
the boundary between being self aware and then being selfish,
like being so self obsessed in not self obsessed in
an extiboy, but being so self aware that it kind
of turns into self obsession where you're being so protective,
so rigid with the way that you want to live
your life, and then you have like this lack of
(04:13):
consideration maybe for others, because I feel like in society
we're told now it's so much about self care, self regulation,
self self self and I think that sometimes can stop
us from connecting with people and actually taking other people
into consideration.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
As much agreed. Tonight, I have a friend date with
a friend who just happens to be in work from Charlotte.
She's here working and she was like, well, let me
know what hotel you're saying it so I could get
a room. I said, you don't have to do that.
We can share a room.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
She was like really. I was like, yeah, old school
sleepover with Yeah. Now she was like okay, yeah, but yeah,
we live in a society now it's like separate room
more division, can't share. Oh my gosh, what if she
wants the room too warm? I'm like, will work it out. Yeah,
being a little bit more flexible than like, I will
work it out, like maybe I'll put on an extra
(05:05):
shirt or something like it a little chillier. But I
really want to spend this time with you, and I
think if we go to our separate rooms, that's less
time that we get to spend together. Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That's such a nice way to think about it actually,
especially in situations where you don't feel comfortable, like sometimes
putting yourself out of your comfort zone when it comes
to building connections is how you can create better relationships.
And I find with I mean speaking for myself, when
I moved countries and I came here, I noticed I
had to put myself into uncomfortable communication and uncomfortable scenarios
(05:40):
to actually build relationships with people. Otherwise, if I kept
myself to myself, I would have probably felt really lonely
when I was here.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, and I think you have to go the distance
in those situations. It's like, Okay, I had lunch with
that person, it was pretty cool, and let's follow up. Yeah, yes,
abandon it because sometimes we'll start that connection, will notice
that spark, and then we just like let it fizzle totally.
You have to keep it going, Yeah, you really do.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
What are some practical tools that you find if people
are feeling a little bit lonely but also find themselves
being someone who doesn't connect as easily. What are some
easy tips of tools that people can use to get
themselves to a place but they are able to connect better.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Who's already in your orbit? Sometimes we're not noticing who
has been saying do you need any help? You want
to go out for coffee? Yeah, yeah, let's get it.
Sometimes really follow up on that. Maybe there's someone already
there and you don't need to seek out any new people.
Are there some old people around? Because sometimes we have
(06:43):
lost some connections that we just need to send that
text or we need to say, hey, it's been a while,
Yeah I'd love to reconnect with you. So meeting the
new people is great and also who's already here. What
do I need to nurture? What can can flourish with
a little bit of care and love and attention. From
(07:05):
my perspective.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
It's so interesting because these days, when you do follow
up with people, when you say let's get coffee and
you actually message them, I noticed, it's such almost like
a shock that that actually happened, that this person actually
followed up. And my mom has that characteristic of she
if she says she's going to do something, or she's
going to make a call for you, or she's gonna
message you, she will absolutely do it, like she will
(07:27):
go that extra mile for you. But I've noticed in
our generation it's so much harder for people to actually
do that, yeah, to follow through, and when they do,
it's like a surprise, Oh, well, that person actually messaged me.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I think sometimes because we are so busy, we have
to remember it's not that people don't want to be
in community with us. Sometimes they are busy. We are busy,
and these things just fall out if we don't keep
them going. Yeah, and also with relationships, I think it's
really important that we give people a strategic thing they
(08:01):
can do. So if I want to connect with you.
It's like, hey, are you available on the thirteenth at
five o'clock for dinner?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Finish the finish the sentence right right. You want to
connect because sometimes people forget that, but sometimes people want
to connect and it's all of this other noise in
life and we can't have those connections. But giving them
something strategic and solid, like can we do this on
(08:28):
this date at this time. It works very well. If
I text a friend and I say like, hey, want
to grab dinner? Usually I follow up with a RESI invite. Yeah,
you add yourself to the it's done. And I have
one friend she's like, thank you girl. You are always yeah,
And I'm like, I am, but it's only because I
(08:49):
don't want to have ten text messages about doing the
thing and then we never do the thing. It's so true,
I'm saying any of them, it's like we've been talking
about connecting for a very long time. We haven't actually
scheduled anything.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, that's yeah. My husband's really good at that. Actually
I'm getting better at It's something I'm working on for sure.
In your book, you talk about a dependency spectrum. Could
you share a little bit more about that and educate
us on what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And is everyone on that spectrum? Yes, everybody is on
the dependency spectrum. I would say on the unhealthy end
of it, you see more codependency, and you see more enmeshment.
And then on the healthier and would you would see
where you can exist in relationships and give and take
and rejuvenate. But I would say, if we look at
(09:39):
the spectrum like this, one end is codependency enmeshment, than
this other end is counterdependency or hyper independence, where you
feel this need to do things without people, where you're
more avoidant of relationships and connection, or you have this
do it yourself approach. And then in the middle, you know,
(10:00):
right there in the middle, that's where we can invite
people in. We can let them know what our needs are.
We can place our boundaries gently, we can have tough conversations.
We can be flexible. We allow other people to be flexible.
You know, one of the big things I'm noticing now
is we're not very flexible with people. Sometimes when people
(10:23):
have a limitation, it doesn't mean gosh, I got to
end the relationship with this person because they don't want
to start doing yoga with me, it's like, that's not
your yoga friend. Yeah, yeah, you have to find new people. Yeah,
it might be somebody who's already going to the classes
or someone you ask in another setting, but it's not
this person, and you can still have a relationship with them.
(10:46):
But you know, sometimes we're like, no, this person has
if you're a friend, it means this, this, this, and this.
When we can be flexible and say, well, huh, okay,
you're not a friend for that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
And the spectrum that you mentioned, you said one side
of it as could you elaborate on that littabit and
give some signs and like symptoms of what it might
look like if you are in that kind of relationship.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yes, So one side I would say is enmeshment, which
is having a I don't want to say just close connection,
but one where you do everything together, you think alike,
you're unable to have any separation. Sometimes this happens in families,
and it's fine until one person wants something different. It's
(11:30):
fine until maybe somebody else comes into that system and
they're like, what is happening here? Why are you sleeping
in the bed with your mom?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Come on, he're my partner. Don't do this, so you know,
they start to notice, like these things are weird. You're
talking to your mom like twenty times a day, like
that's you know, and if that's okay for you, and
it's fine, it's really not a problem, right because you
all are mutually agreeing to this, But it becomes problematic
when one person wants to break out of that sort
(11:59):
of sins. And then I would say, pretty much akin
to that is codependency, where we are helping someone who
has some unhealthy thing along to their detriment. We're doing
it to feel this need we have to be wanted,
to be needed, to have some space, and sometimes we
(12:19):
are you know, I think with codependency, we are showing
that I love this person and I want to help them.
The challenge is it's just not helpful, right, you know,
you can't get this person to do something in their
life that they're not interested in, no matter what their
potential is, no matter you know what you give them.
(12:40):
Sometimes people have to do those things on their own.
So the codependency is like I'm going to save them,
and then the ameshment is like I have to be
with them all the time, and then you know, the
opposite end of that, we have counterdependency where people have
you know, based on you know, maybe some trauma in
a relationlationship, or some family upbringing stuff that I need
(13:04):
to do things on my own. Relationships are a place
of pain. If people get too close, they can hurt me.
And so with that you don't have any people.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I feel like it's also trying to prove yourself right,
like that I can do things by myself. Sometimes it
can be you feel like people have done too much
for you in your life, and then you get to
an age where you're saying, no, no, I want to
prove that I can do things by myself. And in
your book you talk about being self made, and I
really love the point that you made in that about
how no one's actually have a self made no, like,
(13:37):
you never do anything by yourself.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It made me a cup of tea. Yeah this wasn't
self made. Somebody made the tea. Yeah, you know, so
is that even a real thing? You know, we rely
on people, whether we see them or we don't. We
are relying on other people for our goods, for our living.
You know, your power, your your gas, all of those
(14:01):
things come from other places in the world. Outside yourself.
I think the thing with being self made it sounds
really strong, Yeah, exactly. Sound was like, oh my gosh,
I'm like this fearless person. I don't need any people.
And it's unfortunate. Actually, it's very sad. You know. I
(14:24):
do think we get less needy with time. When you
think of an infant, like they're one hundred percent needy. Yeah. Yeah,
you can't even hold your head up. It's like you
need help with everything. Yeah. And then you you know,
you get a little older and you can do these things,
but you still need people in some capacity. You never
grow out of needing, No, you really don't.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And I think, and I always I loved what you
said in your book about we're supposed to be needy,
Like we as humans are meant to be needy. We're
supposed to need other people. And the moment you end
up thinking that it's just you, you not only put yourself up,
you know, you disadvantage yourself because you're not allowing the
kind of the connections. And the more the hands that
(15:07):
you can hold, the more you have the capability of doing,
and the more people that you allow into your life,
the more opportunities and experiences that you get. And so
I feel like, if you constantly think that I'm going
to do this by myself, I can do it by myself.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
I will and I don't.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Need anyone to help me. You're almost putting yourself at
such a disadvantage. I feel like for a lot of women,
especially because of how society has become, we're always wanting
to prove ourselves, to show that we don't need other people,
like that we can do things by ourselves, because I mean,
I've noticed that a lot of my friends and even
in myself, I went through a phrase of saying, I
don't need anyone to pick.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Up my bags.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I don't need anyone to you know, if I'm scared
at night of walking somewhere, I don't actually need anyone
to take me there because I am capable of going
by myself. And I think there's this constant proving of
being a strong independent woman as being a positive and
it being such a big thing. But it's also okay
to lean into your feminine feel like you do need
other people to support you.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, And I think we are starting to see some
people who have been highly functioning on their own sort
of crash, yeah, because it is a lot to always
be the responsible party, to be the person who has
everyone coming to them, to be, you know, the strong one,
(16:23):
and you don't have anywhere to go. Like that's I
hope it's you know, trending down. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
and that we are learning that it's it's okay to
embrace people, like to have more people to help you
with things. Yeah, that's that's how you go further. You know.
Sometimes we look at people in our fields and we
admire them, and it's like, what's behind Beyonce? A whole
(16:47):
lot of help? Yeah, a whole lot of help. I mean,
just the decisions that she doesn't have to make because
other people are helping her helps her to be this superstar. Yeah,
she couldn't do all this stuff like that's not possible.
So we have to embrace to be a better version
(17:07):
of ourselves. We too need to ask for help, and
sometimes if we can't pay for the help. Some of
us are fortunate enough to have housekeepers or to have
a babysitting service, or laundry services or all these things,
we have to think about who in our community could help.
Can I go over to my friend's house once a
(17:28):
week for dinner and she comes over to mind that
takes me having a cook out of the loop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's helpful. That's enough. Yeah, we have to get creative
around what being in connection and in partnerships with others
in this life really looks like, Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I wanted to go back to what you were saying
about codependency, because you know, I feel like there's two
different types of couples that I've.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Been seeing a lot.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Either a couple who they get together and then they
literally do everything together. They rely on each other so
much they become really insular where sometimes their friends don't
even matter, like everything ends up being them two together
doing everything together. Do you think that that is an
unhealthy approach? And do you think there's a need for
(18:16):
couples to have their own individual friends, their own individual
people that they have in their life or have you
seen at work?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I can't say many people come to therapy with that problem. Okay,
of spending two us time together. Okay, okay, it's the opposite.
It's like you are, please go on a date, right,
It's so the opposite. But outside of that space, I
have seen that, and I think in some ways that
level of I was saying, meshment is probably healthy at
(18:48):
the beginning of your relationship when you're getting to know
each other and you like shut off the noise in
the world, and it's like it's so true, just like
this is so great. Yeah. After some time, I would
say about a year or so, maybe you know, you
start to come back to yourself. Yeah, and you start to, oh,
my gosh, on Thursdays, I used to go to trivia.
(19:12):
What happened? I got to get back to my trivia people.
You know, they miss you. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's Oh,
I've had my head in the sand with the love
of my life, let's have a girl's night. And you know,
I think as we get older, hopeful with hopefully we
learn not to abandon our world when people come into
(19:34):
our lives and we really figure out a way to
incorporate them into it, even if that's like I just
I want to be with my man all the time. Yeah.
Maybe maybe your friend third Wheels, Yeah exactly, it's like,
now all of y'all can be together, like figuring out
some sort of way to keep those things going. But
(19:56):
maybe there are some couples who it's like they're like
this forever and ever. I don't know any in particular. Yeah,
but but.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
You said right at the beginning of the relationship, it
is really nice to have go into your own noble
well then be able to connect him that.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Way, yeah, and come out of it. Yeah, yeah, and
then come out of it. Don't stay there, because what
tends to happen. Let's say that the couples I've known
where they have had that prolonged experience, one of them
starts to get tired of it, right, So it's it's
maybe the other person they want to keep it going, like, well,
(20:32):
we spend all our time together, and the other person
is like, I need a break, I need a break,
Like this is intense, Like I really really love you,
and I don't want to be with you all the time.
And it's it's not anything about you, but it's really
like there's something about having your own time to be silent. Yeah,
(20:53):
there's something about having your own space with people who
aren't your partner. Yes, those connections.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
And the couples that you were saying on the other
side of the spectrum where they've lost that connections and
they're trying to rebuild that. What are some of the
things that you recommend that they do to help rebuild
that deeper connection that they're looking for.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Well, I think time together matters. And as we are
moving through life and we have work and we have
all these things, we get into the rhythm of I
go to my space, you go to your space doing
mundane things together, whether that's you know, having breakfast together
in the morning before you all leave for work, or
if you work from home, having breakfast together, maybe having
(21:36):
lunch a few times a week. Also, if you need
to run errands, take your partner with you. They can
go to ups. Yeah, everybody's welcome, you know, So take
them on some errands with you.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And they also have some dates, plan schedule things that
you're doing together.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Schedule things not all on one partner. Yeah, both people
can figure out what a date could be. So I
think that time together is really important. You know, when
you look at the divorces that we see, like in media,
it's like they were always traveling. They didn't have any
time together, right right, right. It's something about making the
(22:15):
connection important. And when we don't have people around, we
start to have a life without them. Yeah, like if
my partner is never here or we don't have any
ways to connect? What are we doing? What is this relationship?
I was talking to a friend who's an astronaut and
(22:41):
she was saying how I was asking her because you
travel so much. Yeah, like you're gone for months and
you know, she was I was saying, how do you
stay connected with your husband? And she said, we've talked
about the moon that I see is the moon that
you see? And when we stare at the moon, we
(23:02):
are seeing each other. And I said, Oh, are you
writing a rhymklm about that moon? Like we're connecting over
the moon. And that's Katie Kleman. I met her a
while ago and I was like, oh, my gosh, an
astronaut and she yeah. I was like, that's that's such
an interesting job to have and to have a long marriage.
It's like, how do you do that? And she's like, yeah,
(23:25):
I do it by you know, making the time I'm gone.
But we have other connection points. So I think having
something with a partner that's consistent and true for you
is really important. And I don't have a time remedy
for that, Like I can't say, oh, you should spend
six hours a week with your partner because it's you
(23:46):
know it's unique and it's up to the couple. Everybody's
needs are different. However, I do know that that unique
connection is important.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, And I feel like, well there's mundane things that
you said of having breakfast together, going to ups to
t It's like it can either and even they're looking
at the moon and seeing in a different way. It
can either be a monotonous thing that you do every
single day and the same activity can have intense connection
or it can have intense disconnection. So that same activity,
depending on how you are choosing to interact with that person,
(24:19):
can completely shift. Are you choosing to be on your
phone or are you choosing to put it down for
that fifteen minutes where you guys are eating together so
you can think of questions and conversations that you can have.
Or you could be having breakfast every single day together
and not connect at all. And so I feel like
having those those moments, but having them where you're a
lot more conscious of how.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Those moments are being spent.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Then even if you just have those fifteen minutes a
day together, it can feel like you've reconnected every single
day for fifteen minutes, even if it's just for those
small moments.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, I think we need to do that in our
romantic relationships with our family with her, Yeah, and like
being intentional about curating the relationship experience I used to.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
That reminds me of when me and Jay had started dating.
We I used to spend a lot of time in
my family. I still do, but even though we're far away.
But when we started dating, I would be like, just
come over and spend time with my family. Like that's
how I would tell him that we just hang out
and have dates together, but like, just come over with
my mom and dad, we're watching a movie. Come over
and spend time together. And I remember I'm saying to me,
(25:24):
he was like, as much as I love your family,
I'm not a let me just sit around with your
family type of person. And at first I thought, that's
so rude, because why would you not want to spend
time with.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Me and my family.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And then because when it's your family, of course you
want to spend time with them, And then I remember
him saying, he goes, I will always want to spend
quality time with your family, but I don't want to
be someone who's spending unconscious time with them where I
just have to be there but not actually connect with them,
and so he's always He's taught me the idea of Okay,
even if we don't have a lot of time, I
(25:55):
want your if I'm spending time with your dad, I
want it to be intentional, and I want it to
feel like we've actually connected, and I want it to
be off quality. I don't really want to just sit
there and watch a movie with him because I don't
feel like I've connected to him. And so that for
me was really interesting because I used to spend a
lot of passive time with my family, and now I
try to make it so that I have individual connection
with each person or ask them about their you know,
(26:17):
life before I existed, or like question them and get
to know them a little bit deeper when I'm spending
time with them rather than it being passive interactions. And
it's really changed the quality of our relationship in that way.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Some more quality time and that quantity.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Time, yes, exactly, more intentional, like you said, spend thinking
about how that time is being utilized.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, that's that's really important. You know, there is many
parenting experts will say, like fifteen strategic minutes with your children. Yeah,
just having like literally like I'm going to sit here
and play whatever you want to play. Yeah, Like that's
an important way to connect. A lot of times we think,
(27:01):
oh my gosh, I have to play Uno for hours
and hours and it's just like not necessarily, but sometime,
can it be fifteen minutes? Can it be twenty minutes?
Can it be thirty minutes of intentional time? Not just
like I'm packing your lunch and we're doing this, but like,
here is our time together to really focus on each other.
(27:23):
And can it be in a way that you know
that person likes to spend time together? Yeah. Yeah. With kids,
that's really important. They love to, you know, have their
way with you, teach, teach you stuff. I know my
daughter is like, do you know how to play so
and so?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
No?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I don't. And when she teaches me something, she never
stops talking about it. Now, what is your do with
I have to dine and twelve? Okay? The nine year
old is the one who's like, let me show you
a thing and you have to look.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
So yeah, my nephews like that. Tim always wants to
like tell me about the things that he's learning. So
now I just let him to sit and listen and
he just loves being the one that's teaching and sharing
with other people rather than the other person doing a
lot of the.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Test their whole world. Yeah exactly. When they get to
take that role of like listen to me, so true,
they feel like powerful. So I'm like, okay, how do
we do it? My daughter has tried to teach me
to knit. Wow, I can't get it, but I love
to watch you do it. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. I
(28:24):
love watching you. So I that second loop with the
oh I can't get like you did that? You did it? Yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
With your blanket, you touch on attachment styles in your book,
and I was wondering how you feel that really impacts
not just romantic relationships, but also with your children or
with your family, and how can we utilize them to
really deepen or maintain connections.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I think it's something to be aware of but not
limited by. Okay, And sometimes with attachment styles, people will say, oh,
I'm avoidant or I'm ancious, as if it's now this
personality trait, and we negate all of the things that
brought us to that attachment style. And sometimes we have
to point the finger at the problem and not everyone
(29:10):
because if you're saying, I'm giving in to having this
person who made me feel like I should never ask
for help, so now I'm never doing it. I'm avoidant
of you know, people and them trying to get too
close to me because I won't. I won't be hurt again.
You are letting the past determine what your future can
be relationships, and you know in parenting you can do
(29:34):
that too. You can still be anxious and you know,
we call that helicopter parenting or always kicking on your
kids and you know, all these sorts of things. Or
you could be avoidant where you know your kids they
don't really have any support from you, where they feel
neglected because you're really not in tune with their life
and friendships. We could do it where you know, people
(29:57):
text us and we never respond. You know, we're being avoidant.
We're not following up with that person. We could be anxious.
Is she mad at me? Is she? You know? So
the disorganized, the anxious attachment, the avoidant, I think it
has a place. And also we can override all systems. Yeah,
we do not have to stay there. There are certain
(30:18):
relationships where we just feel so secure because of who
the person is and how they show up with us.
There are others where we might have some more avoidant
tendencies because of I don't know, maybe they represent something.
Maybe there's something there, because I think we've all had
those relationships that kind of jar us where it's like
(30:39):
I don't typically get upset at this thing, but with
this person, you're triggering, you're ting me, you're making me
not want to talk, like what is it with this person?
Or you know, sometimes when you have a deep connection
really fast with a dating companion, it's like, oh my gosh,
like I am the person who takes like we to
(31:00):
like somebody overnight, you know. So so different relationships bring
out different parts of us, and we have to be
open to that. So we don't have to hitch our
wagon into one attachment style. I am this forever. We're
capable of change. I do think the attachment styles relate
to our dependency level. People who are avoidant or have
(31:24):
more of a disorganized style tend to, you know, have
some unhealthy dependency. The avoidance you know, I meant the anxiety.
I think that also causes some in some cases, like codependency,
when you have that fearful, that anxious it causes some
codependency and ameshment because you need those people to say
close so you can feel more secure, like, oh, they
(31:47):
don't need if they don't leave, if they always do this,
then then I feel a bit okay. But then it
comes back up. And then with the avoidant, you know,
we're still having some dependency issues again on that opposite
spectrum of we're not letting people in, we're hyperdependent. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I really like that you said it's not to be
limited by them, because I think sometimes when you get
labeled as something, you think, well, that's just how I am,
But actually it could be a place where it helps
you to recognize the areas that maybe you need to
improve in, or the areas that you need to adapt
and become more flexible in, rather than saying this is
just who I am when you come into the relationship,
(32:28):
I'm an avoidant, I'm an anxious attachment. Okay, well that's
just how we're going to be then in this relationship.
But to use that information to make the other person
feel more comfortable, but also to use that information to
make yourself aware of it so you can become better
with different scenarios within that relationship.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
And in therapy, these are not and people are surprised.
Sometimes these are not terms I would use with a client, right,
So if they use those terms, we'll explore it. But
I don't say, oh, you sound like you have an
anxious attached right. What I might say is it seems
like with this person and the last person, when somebody
(33:07):
starts to get close to you, you pull away. Let's
talk about why that happens, because it's really the behavior
or whatever any of these labels are. It's like, what
is the behavior we're working on. We're working on tolerating,
building your tolerance for closeness. Right, when someone likes you,
(33:28):
it's okay to like them back, like you're a super
cool person. Yeah, yeah, they should like you like it's
okay to like them back. You don't have to push
them away. So again, I think these things are great
for information, but using them as a limitation for ourselves
and for other people, it doesn't necessarily get us to
(33:49):
the space we want to be in. We can be
in a relationship with someone who's avoidant. You know, we
might have a family member who's like that. Maybe your
brother like never answers your text or something. And there's
ways to explore that, to say, like, hey, when I'm
texting you, I just want to know you're okay. So
even if you just text me like okay, I'm really
(34:11):
just checking in because you know, I want to make
sure you're okay and I need to know like little
bro is all right. Yeah, yeah, So send me something.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
You know.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
That's a conversation. It's not a let me text him.
You're avoiding my calls, right, you know those sorts of things,
like sometimes people aren't open to that because they have
this heavy label on them.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
So what is the behavior and what do you say
to people who or what advice would you give to
people who always feel like the expectations are not met
or the disappointed constantly in relationships or yeah, with interactions?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, what are your expectations? That's really hard because I've
heard some Yeah, I think people should be able to
meet that, and I've heard some like that's a wild expectation.
So I think it really depends. And I think if
nobody ever ever can meet the expectation, that would make
me question if my expectation is reasonable? Right? Am I
(35:07):
communicating my expectation in a way that people can understand.
Is the relationship in a place where I can even
have that expectation. One of the things I talk about
in the book is sometimes our expectations don't fit the
relationship we are. We're calling someone our best friend, when
(35:28):
in actuality they're just a friend. They're not best We're
calling a friend a friend, and this person might be
an associate. What are your expectations of a neighbor? What
is your expectations of a coworker, What are your expectations
of an associate? What are your expectations of work? You know,
(35:49):
like having these different levels of interaction, it kind of
helps us not be disappointed. Yes, that is such a
good point.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
It made me think of Over summer, I ended up
having this interaction with a friend who wanted to make
who had asked me to be a bridesmaid in her wedding,
and I think I said yes because in my mind
I had never been a bridesmaid before, so I actually
didn't know what the expectations of being a bridesmaid for
a friend looked like. And for her, she had very
(36:19):
high expectations of what her bridesmaid would be doing for
her or how they would show up. And I think
there was such a lack of realization of how close
the friendship was or how close we each thought we
were to each other, and then the expectations that were
put on that one interaction of being my bridesmaid, me
saying yeah, of course I'll do it, not realizing the
(36:40):
weight that it held for her, and her not realizing
for me that I actually didn't think that it was
much of It was a big deal, but not that
much of a big deal. And so the lack of
awareness of our yeah, our expectations of one another really
ended up making the relationship so much worse because we
hadn't clarified those expectations and we put different weights to
(37:03):
each other. We'd held each other in high regards in
some areas where maybe we weren't supposed to.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
And so what you said really hit.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Me because I was like, yeah, I think our expectations
would just have the right expectations of the level that
you're at with each person, and that makes such a
difference to make all the terrifying relationships.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, I think with dating sometimes even in our family relationships,
I mean, we can't categorize them as like best sister
or association. Yes, but you know, I think just being
aware that all relationships aren't deeply connected. Some relationships are
just connection, right, and that's it. Like we you know,
(37:44):
we see each other on holidays and that's fine, and
everybody everything doesn't have to be close. And if the
expectation is that you will be disappointed.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yes, I think that's such a good point that I
needed to hear, and I'm sure many other people needed
to hear. I feel like a lot of the time
you expect when you have a friend that they're going
to meet every part of what you require a friendship
to be. They're going to fulfill that. It's like, I
really feel like this person's going to be my best friend.
And then as you grow up, you realize you just
have different people for different things, and each person holds
(38:17):
You can have a different type of expectation for each person,
but not all your expectations on one person. It's whether
it's a friend, whether it's a partner, whether it's your mom.
It's really difficult for that person to hold that weight
of all your expectations and for you to expect that
person to have that for you.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
And I think sometimes we have to, you know, in
align with what you're saying, we have to go to
the right person for the right thing. And you know,
if I'm having a work issue, I'm an entrepreneur, I
want to talk to my other entrepreneur friends. Yeah, I
don't want to talk to my corporate friends about it
because their situations in life are different. It's not that
(38:54):
I'm hiding information. It's just like, I think what we're
talking about is you need to having people who work
with you and these sources of things. So I want
to talk to a person who I know have had
similar experiences because I'm trying to work through mine. Yep.
So yeah, having different people in different ways is really
(39:15):
important because I've been in conversations with people where someone
is talking to you about a thing and it's like
I don't even know what to say. Yeah, yeah, I'm
not the right passion for this. This is I cannot
help you with your taxi. I don't even know how
we got here of Have you looked at AG and
R block, Yeah yeah it was. Yeah, I've been in
(39:39):
that situations for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I'm like, it might not be the bright passion, but
I can direct you towards the right person.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah. Like legal issues, I've had people be like, man,
what do you think about this custody of I don't know,
like a two three two, I don't know. I don't
even know what the thing is like. Have you talked
to an attorney? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm not the person
to help with custody arrangements, So yeah, I think it's
(40:05):
in our interest sometimes to even redirect people when we
find that, whether it's they need a level of expertise
or they're fixated on a topic. Because sometimes you know,
we want to be available, we want our friends to
come to us in crisis. But if we notice, wow,
you've talked about the same thing in the same way
for six months, I don't feel like our conversations are
(40:29):
moving the needle. Have you thought about talking to maybe
a therapist, or have you mentioned this to your therapist
directing them to the right play. Yeah, because we don't
want to be the container for all that stuff. It
can become too heavy. Yeah, it could become too heavy,
And then that's when you start avoiding their cause you
don't want to be like, I am so tired of
hearing this thing. You don't want that.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
No. Yeah, you talk about isolation and solitude, and I
really loved the difference that you shed between the two
of you know, isolation being kind of avoiding things and
so being a place of power and strength. Would you
eleperate on a little bit and when and how you
can differentiate between the two.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, I feel like isolation is going inward, but in
a dark space. I think it's it's a dark space
of you going inWORD, not an act of joy, not
anything to rejuvenate, not to gain clarity, but just to
be away from yep. And we have to be careful
of that because when we see isolation, it intensifies loneliness.
(41:36):
It is you know a huge culprit of depression, of anxiety,
of other psychological issues. When you think about isolation, that's
what they use to punish people, right, sending them off
by themselves. Yep. And if you do that enough, you know,
people start talking to themselves and making up stories and
(41:57):
you know, all sorts of things. So it's a it
can be a punitive experience that we put on ourselves
versus solitude where we're exploring, we are recharging, we are
energetically connecting in another way without people, but we are
(42:17):
still welcome, welcoming them in some sort of fashion.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
That's such a beautiful way to differentiate the two. I
wanted to switch back to relationships a little bit because
you talk about the one in your book and how
people talk about the one. There's that one person that
you just fall in love with and that's the only
person that you're get in love for the rest of
your life. Give me your insight to that, because I
really appreciated that part of your book.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, when I hear about the one, sometimes it's a
person who is not the best for us. And I
see people struggling to make something work that is not
working because they have identified this person and as having
these special qualities, this connection that they've never had before.
(43:06):
There is some some deeper thing there, and I think
there are people that you can be compatible with. And
if you say that this person is the one, I
think you will do everything in your power to try
to make it work. Even if it's not working. It
could be a bad relationship and you're like, but this
(43:26):
is my person. They are not treating you like their person. Yep.
This is a one sided experience of you seeing something
special here and them not really reciprocating in that way.
I'm not saying the one doesn't exist. What I'm saying
is you have to question the experience of being with
(43:48):
the one. If this is an unhealthy interaction. Maybe this
was one of the ones. This is one of the ones,
be another one. You got your ones mixed up? Yeah,
you may need to keep counting to the ones because
(44:09):
this one is not working. And that's okay for us
to really want, you know, this, this thing with a person,
and it and not be the time. You know what
I say to people sometimes when they're like, this is
the one, Maybe it is, but not right now. There
are tons of people who come back together when they're
sixty five, yeah, and you're twenty two. Yeah, this might
(44:32):
be the one in retirement, but right now they're wreaking havoc.
They got to learn a lot of other stuff in
the world before they can even come be the one.
This may not be the time. Maybe they are. I
don't know. I don't know what the universe has for you.
But today this is the two, right, it's not the one.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
It's almost like you have to break down your own expectations. Yes,
there's one thing about having expectations that other people, but
when you've built up these expectations in your own mind,
you feel like you're disappointing yourself by not allowing, by
not by breaking that. It's it's breaking your expectations that
you had of that relationship, of the life that you
were going to have, of all the little ideas that
(45:15):
you've created.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
In your mind, and then you have to reframe all
of that.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Love can be blinding. Yeah, it can really be blinding,
and we can like lose our minds in some of
the things. Because when you talk to people after they're
out of relationships, it's like and I saw this, and
I saw that. Yeah, the clarity comes after I saw that.
It's it's it. It literally just like disrupts whatever our
(45:42):
natural flowy is. And we can really ignore a lot
of things that are not hidden. Yeah, so we have
to be aware of that that maybe there's something here
I'm not saying.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Okay, So now I was how we want a healthy, wonderful,
not codependent relationship. Looks like a healthy dependency in a relationship.
How can you notice that day to day? What does
it feel like for someone.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
On a day to day basis? It is give and take.
It is healthy communication with people. So that might look
like if someone texts you, you read the text or
you let them know, like, hey, you know, I saw
your text yesterday, couldn't get to it. But here's the answer.
You know, you're recognizing that people matter in your life.
(46:27):
You have several friends, and you have you know, maybe
some family and a partner, Like you have a robust system.
You are a villager. Not just in the village. You
are helping as well. And I think communication skills matter.
There are so many relationships that end because we did
(46:48):
not communicate properly. I was speaking with someone earlier about
getting invice and just not responding to them. How often
that ends relationships when you could just communicate, Hey, I
see the date, I won't be available, so true, Like
that's it. Did you lose a friend because you never
said anything or you said you would go and you
(47:10):
didn't show up? Like that feels a way to people.
So just saying like hey, I'm not going to be
able to make it. I know it's the last minute,
something came up, I have a stomach bug or whatever
it is. You know, letting people know that things have
shifted so that open communication is healthy dependency in your
relationships and it's important. It makes all the difference.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yeah, and it sounds so simple, and yet we make
it more complicated by not doing it.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
People don't do it.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
No, Yeah, And what about doing conflict? So you know,
obviously every relationship we're gonna have some sort of conflict.
What is a healthy way to if you're trying to
improve the way that you deal with conflict in a relationship.
What are some steps people can take if it gets
too heated, usually with arguments, and how can they reframe
that and reconnect in a way that makes conflicts a
(48:00):
little bit easier to manage?
Speaker 1 (48:02):
So what I think about what is an argument? Sometimes
we think if somebody doesn't agree with me, I'm having
an argument. Well, you're having a conversation. Is a voice elevated?
Is there, you know, some sort of rude back and
forth or is it just a conversation about a thing
you disagree about? So I think if we could reframe
(48:22):
the way we think about conflict and arguing, we can
have it more. And one of the things, if we
could talk about things sooner and not let them faster,
we don't even have to get to the arguments. If
we could say the first or second time of something happening. Hey,
(48:43):
you know, the other day I noticed this thing and
just have a conversation about that. With our calm voice,
we can prevent a lot of the conflict. And conflict
is healthy for relationships. It's how we get to know people.
It's how we start to understand how they operate, how
they think, what we need, things we need to work
(49:04):
on when we get upset, because sometimes we don't know
until we're in conflict. So a conflict free relationship isn't
healthy because that means you don't talk about anything. Yeah,
so some conflict is good. That's good for the relationship.
I was saying a couple once and one of the
(49:26):
folks said, gosh, you must get tired of us. Every
week we come here and we argue about something. And
I said, you always talk about something different though you're
not arguing about the same thing. You're a couple who
just moved in together, so a lot of this stuff
is like you learning how to live together. If you
argued about the same thing every week, I would be concerned.
(49:50):
This is an ongoing argument. I'm not concerned because it
seems like we talk about it, you work through it,
and something else comes up. This is a new situation
that's going to have in for a few weeks. That's
why they say the first year of marriage is the
hardest because you're living with the person and you're discovering
they do not put a cap on their toothpaste.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
What I did disciple that person lives like this, right,
And so you're discovering all these They just take their
socks off, they just put them on the floor.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Who does that?
Speaker 2 (50:21):
You know?
Speaker 1 (50:21):
And so every week it's something different, this person who
was just like so perfect. It's like and they leave
hair in the sink, you know, it's it's it's on
and on and on. But you're learning how to live
with a person. Okay, I'm living with someone else. Let
me get my hair out the sink, let me throw
my socks in the basket. Or maybe your partner says,
I'm not even gonna talk about this. I'm gonna just
(50:42):
pick them up and throw them in a basket. Yeah,
you're figuring things out. That's conflict and that's actually healthy.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
What do you think is the main message you want
people to really take away from your book? If there's
one thing that you want them to take away to
enhunt their life in some way, what do you feel
like that would be.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
Being with other peop people is important, and we have
to figure out a way to hold our boundaries to
being being healing mode to work on ourselves while working
with other people and their stuff. And I'm not talking
about toxic stuff. I don't want. I don't want people
(51:20):
to say, oh yeah, accept abuse. No, I'm not talking
about abuse, neglect and those sorts of things. I'm talking
about somebody being routine annoying in a relationship. Relationships should
annoy us. Sometimes they should cause us to have, you know,
a moment where it's inconvenient. Things happen for people and
(51:44):
things happen for us, and so just having the flexibility
around being in relationships is important right now. Thank you.
That's so wonderful, Nata, thank you so much for coming on.
This is such a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
I think it's going to hopefully help so many people
reconnect and create deeper, more meaningful relationships. Everybody, go out
there and grab the balancing act creating healthy dependency and
connection without losing yourself. Another best selling book, I'm sure
from Nedra.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Thank you again. Thanks so wonderful.
What's behind Beyonce A whole lot of help being self made?
It sounds really strong. We are starting to see some
people who have been highly functioning on their own sort
of crash.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Nedra is a licensed therapist with a community of over
two million on Instagram. She reaches the global audience each
week through her podcast You Need to Hear This. In
her newest book, The Balancing Act, Nedra offers a roadmap
to creating relationships that on a both dependency and individuality.
Tell me what a healthy, wonderful, not codependent relationship looks like.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
We're not very flexible with people. When people have a limitation,
it doesn't mean gosh, I got it in the relationship
with this person. A conflict free relationship isn't healthy because
that means you don't talk about anything. Yeah, so some
conflict is good for the relationship. You have to question
the experience of being with the one. Maybe this was
one of the ones. There may be another one. You
(00:55):
got your ones mixed up. I don't know what the
universe has for you, but today this is the two
right the one.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm radi wkah and on my podcast A Really Good Cry,
we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing a space
for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and allow you
to tune in to learn, connect and find comfort together. Noda,
thank you so much for being here. I deeply enjoyed
reading your book. I felt like I learned so much
(01:24):
from it. So first I just want to say thank
you for being here and blessing us with your presence.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Thank you for having me. This is this is going
to be good. I feel the calmness entering my spirit.
You actually really have that energy.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
As soon as you walked in and I was in
your sphere of energy, I was like, Wow, she's a
very calm person and I really appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So thanks for bringing that here. You're welcome. I wanted
to ask you just to start off.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So I know you've already had two incredible books that
have come out, both on different topics. What brought you
to write this book and why this topic in particular.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, So, what I'm noticing now with some of my
clients is more disconnection in their relationships. And I think
when we seek boundaries and we seek healing, and we
seek all these things, it needs to be in tandem
with connection. And so it's very important to me to say, hey,
(02:22):
we could be dependent in healthy ways. We don't have
to erase everything. We don't have to reject all things
or have these you know, strong rules about stuff in
every situation. We have to be flexible because being connected
leads to better mental health, longer life span, all sorts
(02:43):
of things. But it's positive for us to have these connections.
And I see that we're losing them.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
And obviously you've had you've had many clients, and you've
done this for such a long time. What are you
noticing or what past things are you noticing that people
are having that is causing this disconnection.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I think people are more self aware and maybe a
little less sometimes other tolerating. Okay, right, so I'm more
self aware and the things that people won't change or
haven't change is annoying. Now, there are some things that
I think we can all agree are toxic, unhealthy, abusive,
(03:21):
But then there are other things where it's like you
may have a friend where you need to just have
a conversation with them and say, hey, you can't call
me seven times today, I'm not available. It doesn't mean
the relationship needs to end or you need to confront them.
But it's just like I'm not available that much. I
have a busy work schedule. I will, you know, maybe
chat with you when I'm done, but you know, reassuring people,
(03:44):
letting them know that you want to be in a
relationship and it's still important to you. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I feel like sometimes it's really difficult to know whether
the boundary between being self aware and then being selfish,
like being so self obsessed in not self obsessed in
an extiboy, but being so self aware that it kind
of turns into self obsession where you're being so protective,
so rigid with the way that you want to live
your life, and then you have like this lack of
(04:13):
consideration maybe for others, because I feel like in society
we're told now it's so much about self care, self regulation,
self self self and I think that sometimes can stop
us from connecting with people and actually taking other people
into consideration.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
As much agreed. Tonight, I have a friend date with
a friend who just happens to be in work from Charlotte.
She's here working and she was like, well, let me
know what hotel you're saying it so I could get
a room. I said, you don't have to do that.
We can share a room.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
She was like really. I was like, yeah, old school
sleepover with Yeah. Now she was like okay, yeah, but yeah,
we live in a society now it's like separate room
more division, can't share. Oh my gosh, what if she
wants the room too warm? I'm like, will work it out. Yeah,
being a little bit more flexible than like, I will
work it out, like maybe I'll put on an extra
(05:05):
shirt or something like it a little chillier. But I
really want to spend this time with you, and I
think if we go to our separate rooms, that's less
time that we get to spend together. Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That's such a nice way to think about it actually,
especially in situations where you don't feel comfortable, like sometimes
putting yourself out of your comfort zone when it comes
to building connections is how you can create better relationships.
And I find with I mean speaking for myself, when
I moved countries and I came here, I noticed I
had to put myself into uncomfortable communication and uncomfortable scenarios
(05:40):
to actually build relationships with people. Otherwise, if I kept
myself to myself, I would have probably felt really lonely
when I was here.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, and I think you have to go the distance
in those situations. It's like, Okay, I had lunch with
that person, it was pretty cool, and let's follow up. Yeah, yes,
abandon it because sometimes we'll start that connection, will notice
that spark, and then we just like let it fizzle totally.
You have to keep it going, Yeah, you really do.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
What are some practical tools that you find if people
are feeling a little bit lonely but also find themselves
being someone who doesn't connect as easily. What are some
easy tips of tools that people can use to get
themselves to a place but they are able to connect better.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Who's already in your orbit? Sometimes we're not noticing who
has been saying do you need any help? You want
to go out for coffee? Yeah, yeah, let's get it.
Sometimes really follow up on that. Maybe there's someone already
there and you don't need to seek out any new people.
Are there some old people around? Because sometimes we have
(06:43):
lost some connections that we just need to send that
text or we need to say, hey, it's been a while,
Yeah I'd love to reconnect with you. So meeting the
new people is great and also who's already here. What
do I need to nurture? What can can flourish with
a little bit of care and love and attention. From
(07:05):
my perspective.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
It's so interesting because these days, when you do follow
up with people, when you say let's get coffee and
you actually message them, I noticed, it's such almost like
a shock that that actually happened, that this person actually
followed up. And my mom has that characteristic of she
if she says she's going to do something, or she's
going to make a call for you, or she's gonna
message you, she will absolutely do it, like she will
(07:27):
go that extra mile for you. But I've noticed in
our generation it's so much harder for people to actually
do that, yeah, to follow through, and when they do,
it's like a surprise, Oh, well, that person actually messaged me.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I think sometimes because we are so busy, we have
to remember it's not that people don't want to be
in community with us. Sometimes they are busy. We are busy,
and these things just fall out if we don't keep
them going. Yeah, and also with relationships, I think it's
really important that we give people a strategic thing they
(08:01):
can do. So if I want to connect with you.
It's like, hey, are you available on the thirteenth at
five o'clock for dinner?
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Finish the finish the sentence right right. You want to
connect because sometimes people forget that, but sometimes people want
to connect and it's all of this other noise in
life and we can't have those connections. But giving them
something strategic and solid, like can we do this on
(08:28):
this date at this time. It works very well. If
I text a friend and I say like, hey, want
to grab dinner? Usually I follow up with a RESI invite. Yeah,
you add yourself to the it's done. And I have
one friend she's like, thank you girl. You are always yeah,
And I'm like, I am, but it's only because I
(08:49):
don't want to have ten text messages about doing the
thing and then we never do the thing. It's so true,
I'm saying any of them, it's like we've been talking
about connecting for a very long time. We haven't actually
scheduled anything.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, that's yeah. My husband's really good at that. Actually
I'm getting better at It's something I'm working on for sure.
In your book, you talk about a dependency spectrum. Could
you share a little bit more about that and educate
us on what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And is everyone on that spectrum? Yes, everybody is on
the dependency spectrum. I would say on the unhealthy end
of it, you see more codependency, and you see more enmeshment.
And then on the healthier and would you would see
where you can exist in relationships and give and take
and rejuvenate. But I would say, if we look at
(09:39):
the spectrum like this, one end is codependency enmeshment, than
this other end is counterdependency or hyper independence, where you
feel this need to do things without people, where you're
more avoidant of relationships and connection, or you have this
do it yourself approach. And then in the middle, you know,
(10:00):
right there in the middle, that's where we can invite
people in. We can let them know what our needs are.
We can place our boundaries gently, we can have tough conversations.
We can be flexible. We allow other people to be flexible.
You know, one of the big things I'm noticing now
is we're not very flexible with people. Sometimes when people
(10:23):
have a limitation, it doesn't mean gosh, I got to
end the relationship with this person because they don't want
to start doing yoga with me, it's like, that's not
your yoga friend. Yeah, yeah, you have to find new people. Yeah,
it might be somebody who's already going to the classes
or someone you ask in another setting, but it's not
this person, and you can still have a relationship with them.
(10:46):
But you know, sometimes we're like, no, this person has
if you're a friend, it means this, this, this, and this.
When we can be flexible and say, well, huh, okay,
you're not a friend for that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
And the spectrum that you mentioned, you said one side
of it as could you elaborate on that littabit and
give some signs and like symptoms of what it might
look like if you are in that kind of relationship.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yes, So one side I would say is enmeshment, which
is having a I don't want to say just close connection,
but one where you do everything together, you think alike,
you're unable to have any separation. Sometimes this happens in families,
and it's fine until one person wants something different. It's
(11:30):
fine until maybe somebody else comes into that system and
they're like, what is happening here? Why are you sleeping
in the bed with your mom?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Come on, he're my partner. Don't do this, so you know,
they start to notice, like these things are weird. You're
talking to your mom like twenty times a day, like
that's you know, and if that's okay for you, and
it's fine, it's really not a problem, right because you
all are mutually agreeing to this, But it becomes problematic
when one person wants to break out of that sort
(11:59):
of sins. And then I would say, pretty much akin
to that is codependency, where we are helping someone who
has some unhealthy thing along to their detriment. We're doing
it to feel this need we have to be wanted,
to be needed, to have some space, and sometimes we
(12:19):
are you know, I think with codependency, we are showing
that I love this person and I want to help them.
The challenge is it's just not helpful, right, you know,
you can't get this person to do something in their
life that they're not interested in, no matter what their
potential is, no matter you know what you give them.
(12:40):
Sometimes people have to do those things on their own.
So the codependency is like I'm going to save them,
and then the ameshment is like I have to be
with them all the time, and then you know, the
opposite end of that, we have counterdependency where people have
you know, based on you know, maybe some trauma in
a relationlationship, or some family upbringing stuff that I need
(13:04):
to do things on my own. Relationships are a place
of pain. If people get too close, they can hurt me.
And so with that you don't have any people.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I feel like it's also trying to prove yourself right,
like that I can do things by myself. Sometimes it
can be you feel like people have done too much
for you in your life, and then you get to
an age where you're saying, no, no, I want to
prove that I can do things by myself. And in
your book you talk about being self made, and I
really love the point that you made in that about
how no one's actually have a self made no, like,
(13:37):
you never do anything by yourself.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It made me a cup of tea. Yeah this wasn't
self made. Somebody made the tea. Yeah, you know, so
is that even a real thing? You know, we rely
on people, whether we see them or we don't. We
are relying on other people for our goods, for our living.
You know, your power, your your gas, all of those
(14:01):
things come from other places in the world. Outside yourself.
I think the thing with being self made it sounds
really strong, Yeah, exactly. Sound was like, oh my gosh,
I'm like this fearless person. I don't need any people.
And it's unfortunate. Actually, it's very sad. You know. I
(14:24):
do think we get less needy with time. When you
think of an infant, like they're one hundred percent needy. Yeah. Yeah,
you can't even hold your head up. It's like you
need help with everything. Yeah. And then you you know,
you get a little older and you can do these things,
but you still need people in some capacity. You never
grow out of needing, No, you really don't.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And I think, and I always I loved what you
said in your book about we're supposed to be needy,
Like we as humans are meant to be needy. We're
supposed to need other people. And the moment you end
up thinking that it's just you, you not only put yourself up,
you know, you disadvantage yourself because you're not allowing the
kind of the connections. And the more the hands that
(15:07):
you can hold, the more you have the capability of doing,
and the more people that you allow into your life,
the more opportunities and experiences that you get. And so
I feel like, if you constantly think that I'm going
to do this by myself, I can do it by myself.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
I will and I don't.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Need anyone to help me. You're almost putting yourself at
such a disadvantage. I feel like for a lot of women,
especially because of how society has become, we're always wanting
to prove ourselves, to show that we don't need other people,
like that we can do things by ourselves, because I mean,
I've noticed that a lot of my friends and even
in myself, I went through a phrase of saying, I
don't need anyone to pick.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Up my bags.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I don't need anyone to you know, if I'm scared
at night of walking somewhere, I don't actually need anyone
to take me there because I am capable of going
by myself. And I think there's this constant proving of
being a strong independent woman as being a positive and
it being such a big thing. But it's also okay
to lean into your feminine feel like you do need
other people to support you.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, And I think we are starting to see some
people who have been highly functioning on their own sort
of crash, yeah, because it is a lot to always
be the responsible party, to be the person who has
everyone coming to them, to be, you know, the strong one,
(16:23):
and you don't have anywhere to go. Like that's I
hope it's you know, trending down. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
and that we are learning that it's it's okay to
embrace people, like to have more people to help you
with things. Yeah, that's that's how you go further. You know.
Sometimes we look at people in our fields and we
admire them, and it's like, what's behind Beyonce? A whole
(16:47):
lot of help? Yeah, a whole lot of help. I mean,
just the decisions that she doesn't have to make because
other people are helping her helps her to be this superstar. Yeah,
she couldn't do all this stuff like that's not possible.
So we have to embrace to be a better version
(17:07):
of ourselves. We too need to ask for help, and
sometimes if we can't pay for the help. Some of
us are fortunate enough to have housekeepers or to have
a babysitting service, or laundry services or all these things,
we have to think about who in our community could help.
Can I go over to my friend's house once a
(17:28):
week for dinner and she comes over to mind that
takes me having a cook out of the loop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's helpful. That's enough. Yeah, we have to get creative
around what being in connection and in partnerships with others
in this life really looks like, Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I wanted to go back to what you were saying
about codependency, because you know, I feel like there's two
different types of couples that I've.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Been seeing a lot.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Either a couple who they get together and then they
literally do everything together. They rely on each other so
much they become really insular where sometimes their friends don't
even matter, like everything ends up being them two together
doing everything together. Do you think that that is an
unhealthy approach? And do you think there's a need for
(18:16):
couples to have their own individual friends, their own individual
people that they have in their life or have you
seen at work?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I can't say many people come to therapy with that problem. Okay,
of spending two us time together. Okay, okay, it's the opposite.
It's like you are, please go on a date, right,
It's so the opposite. But outside of that space, I
have seen that, and I think in some ways that
level of I was saying, meshment is probably healthy at
(18:48):
the beginning of your relationship when you're getting to know
each other and you like shut off the noise in
the world, and it's like it's so true, just like
this is so great. Yeah. After some time, I would
say about a year or so, maybe you know, you
start to come back to yourself. Yeah, and you start to, oh,
my gosh, on Thursdays, I used to go to trivia.
(19:12):
What happened? I got to get back to my trivia people.
You know, they miss you. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's Oh,
I've had my head in the sand with the love
of my life, let's have a girl's night. And you know,
I think as we get older, hopeful with hopefully we
learn not to abandon our world when people come into
(19:34):
our lives and we really figure out a way to
incorporate them into it, even if that's like I just
I want to be with my man all the time. Yeah.
Maybe maybe your friend third Wheels, Yeah exactly, it's like,
now all of y'all can be together, like figuring out
some sort of way to keep those things going. But
(19:56):
maybe there are some couples who it's like they're like
this forever and ever. I don't know any in particular. Yeah,
but but.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
You said right at the beginning of the relationship, it
is really nice to have go into your own noble
well then be able to connect him that.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Way, yeah, and come out of it. Yeah, yeah, and
then come out of it. Don't stay there, because what
tends to happen. Let's say that the couples I've known
where they have had that prolonged experience, one of them
starts to get tired of it, right, So it's it's
maybe the other person they want to keep it going, like, well,
(20:32):
we spend all our time together, and the other person
is like, I need a break, I need a break,
Like this is intense, Like I really really love you,
and I don't want to be with you all the time.
And it's it's not anything about you, but it's really
like there's something about having your own time to be silent. Yeah,
(20:53):
there's something about having your own space with people who
aren't your partner. Yes, those connections.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
And the couples that you were saying on the other
side of the spectrum where they've lost that connections and
they're trying to rebuild that. What are some of the
things that you recommend that they do to help rebuild
that deeper connection that they're looking for.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Well, I think time together matters. And as we are
moving through life and we have work and we have
all these things, we get into the rhythm of I
go to my space, you go to your space doing
mundane things together, whether that's you know, having breakfast together
in the morning before you all leave for work, or
if you work from home, having breakfast together, maybe having
(21:36):
lunch a few times a week. Also, if you need
to run errands, take your partner with you. They can
go to ups. Yeah, everybody's welcome, you know, So take
them on some errands with you.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
And they also have some dates, plan schedule things that
you're doing together.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Schedule things not all on one partner. Yeah, both people
can figure out what a date could be. So I
think that time together is really important. You know, when
you look at the divorces that we see, like in media,
it's like they were always traveling. They didn't have any
time together, right right, right. It's something about making the
(22:15):
connection important. And when we don't have people around, we
start to have a life without them. Yeah, like if
my partner is never here or we don't have any
ways to connect? What are we doing? What is this relationship?
I was talking to a friend who's an astronaut and
(22:41):
she was saying how I was asking her because you
travel so much. Yeah, like you're gone for months and
you know, she was I was saying, how do you
stay connected with your husband? And she said, we've talked
about the moon that I see is the moon that
you see? And when we stare at the moon, we
(23:02):
are seeing each other. And I said, Oh, are you
writing a rhymklm about that moon? Like we're connecting over
the moon. And that's Katie Kleman. I met her a
while ago and I was like, oh, my gosh, an
astronaut and she yeah. I was like, that's that's such
an interesting job to have and to have a long marriage.
It's like, how do you do that? And she's like, yeah,
(23:25):
I do it by you know, making the time I'm gone.
But we have other connection points. So I think having
something with a partner that's consistent and true for you
is really important. And I don't have a time remedy
for that, Like I can't say, oh, you should spend
six hours a week with your partner because it's you
(23:46):
know it's unique and it's up to the couple. Everybody's
needs are different. However, I do know that that unique
connection is important.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, And I feel like, well there's mundane things that
you said of having breakfast together, going to ups to
t It's like it can either and even they're looking
at the moon and seeing in a different way. It
can either be a monotonous thing that you do every
single day and the same activity can have intense connection
or it can have intense disconnection. So that same activity,
depending on how you are choosing to interact with that person,
(24:19):
can completely shift. Are you choosing to be on your
phone or are you choosing to put it down for
that fifteen minutes where you guys are eating together so
you can think of questions and conversations that you can have.
Or you could be having breakfast every single day together
and not connect at all. And so I feel like
having those those moments, but having them where you're a
lot more conscious of how.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Those moments are being spent.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Then even if you just have those fifteen minutes a
day together, it can feel like you've reconnected every single
day for fifteen minutes, even if it's just for those
small moments.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, I think we need to do that in our
romantic relationships with our family with her, Yeah, and like
being intentional about curating the relationship experience I used to.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
That reminds me of when me and Jay had started dating.
We I used to spend a lot of time in
my family. I still do, but even though we're far away.
But when we started dating, I would be like, just
come over and spend time with my family. Like that's
how I would tell him that we just hang out
and have dates together, but like, just come over with
my mom and dad, we're watching a movie. Come over
and spend time together. And I remember I'm saying to me,
(25:24):
he was like, as much as I love your family,
I'm not a let me just sit around with your
family type of person. And at first I thought, that's
so rude, because why would you not want to spend
time with.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Me and my family.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And then because when it's your family, of course you
want to spend time with them, And then I remember
him saying, he goes, I will always want to spend
quality time with your family, but I don't want to
be someone who's spending unconscious time with them where I
just have to be there but not actually connect with them,
and so he's always He's taught me the idea of Okay,
even if we don't have a lot of time, I
(25:55):
want your if I'm spending time with your dad, I
want it to be intentional, and I want it to
feel like we've actually connected, and I want it to
be off quality. I don't really want to just sit
there and watch a movie with him because I don't
feel like I've connected to him. And so that for
me was really interesting because I used to spend a
lot of passive time with my family, and now I
try to make it so that I have individual connection
with each person or ask them about their you know,
(26:17):
life before I existed, or like question them and get
to know them a little bit deeper when I'm spending
time with them rather than it being passive interactions. And
it's really changed the quality of our relationship in that way.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Some more quality time and that quantity.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Time, yes, exactly, more intentional, like you said, spend thinking
about how that time is being utilized.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, that's that's really important. You know, there is many
parenting experts will say, like fifteen strategic minutes with your children. Yeah,
just having like literally like I'm going to sit here
and play whatever you want to play. Yeah, Like that's
an important way to connect. A lot of times we think,
(27:01):
oh my gosh, I have to play Uno for hours
and hours and it's just like not necessarily, but sometime,
can it be fifteen minutes? Can it be twenty minutes?
Can it be thirty minutes of intentional time? Not just
like I'm packing your lunch and we're doing this, but like,
here is our time together to really focus on each other.
(27:23):
And can it be in a way that you know
that person likes to spend time together? Yeah. Yeah. With kids,
that's really important. They love to, you know, have their
way with you, teach, teach you stuff. I know my
daughter is like, do you know how to play so
and so?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
No?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I don't. And when she teaches me something, she never
stops talking about it. Now, what is your do with
I have to dine and twelve? Okay? The nine year
old is the one who's like, let me show you
a thing and you have to look.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
So yeah, my nephews like that. Tim always wants to
like tell me about the things that he's learning. So
now I just let him to sit and listen and
he just loves being the one that's teaching and sharing
with other people rather than the other person doing a
lot of the.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Test their whole world. Yeah exactly. When they get to
take that role of like listen to me, so true,
they feel like powerful. So I'm like, okay, how do
we do it? My daughter has tried to teach me
to knit. Wow, I can't get it, but I love
to watch you do it. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. I
(28:24):
love watching you. So I that second loop with the
oh I can't get like you did that? You did it? Yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
With your blanket, you touch on attachment styles in your book,
and I was wondering how you feel that really impacts
not just romantic relationships, but also with your children or
with your family, and how can we utilize them to
really deepen or maintain connections.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I think it's something to be aware of but not
limited by. Okay, And sometimes with attachment styles, people will say, oh,
I'm avoidant or I'm ancious, as if it's now this
personality trait, and we negate all of the things that
brought us to that attachment style. And sometimes we have
to point the finger at the problem and not everyone
(29:10):
because if you're saying, I'm giving in to having this
person who made me feel like I should never ask
for help, so now I'm never doing it. I'm avoidant
of you know, people and them trying to get too
close to me because I won't. I won't be hurt again.
You are letting the past determine what your future can
be relationships, and you know in parenting you can do
(29:34):
that too. You can still be anxious and you know,
we call that helicopter parenting or always kicking on your
kids and you know, all these sorts of things. Or
you could be avoidant where you know your kids they
don't really have any support from you, where they feel
neglected because you're really not in tune with their life
and friendships. We could do it where you know, people
(29:57):
text us and we never respond. You know, we're being avoidant.
We're not following up with that person. We could be anxious.
Is she mad at me? Is she? You know? So
the disorganized, the anxious attachment, the avoidant, I think it
has a place. And also we can override all systems. Yeah,
we do not have to stay there. There are certain
(30:18):
relationships where we just feel so secure because of who
the person is and how they show up with us.
There are others where we might have some more avoidant
tendencies because of I don't know, maybe they represent something.
Maybe there's something there, because I think we've all had
those relationships that kind of jar us where it's like
(30:39):
I don't typically get upset at this thing, but with
this person, you're triggering, you're ting me, you're making me
not want to talk, like what is it with this person?
Or you know, sometimes when you have a deep connection
really fast with a dating companion, it's like, oh my gosh,
like I am the person who takes like we to
(31:00):
like somebody overnight, you know. So so different relationships bring
out different parts of us, and we have to be
open to that. So we don't have to hitch our
wagon into one attachment style. I am this forever. We're
capable of change. I do think the attachment styles relate
to our dependency level. People who are avoidant or have
(31:24):
more of a disorganized style tend to, you know, have
some unhealthy dependency. The avoidance you know, I meant the anxiety.
I think that also causes some in some cases, like codependency,
when you have that fearful, that anxious it causes some
codependency and ameshment because you need those people to say
close so you can feel more secure, like, oh, they
(31:47):
don't need if they don't leave, if they always do this,
then then I feel a bit okay. But then it
comes back up. And then with the avoidant, you know,
we're still having some dependency issues again on that opposite
spectrum of we're not letting people in, we're hyperdependent. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I really like that you said it's not to be
limited by them, because I think sometimes when you get
labeled as something, you think, well, that's just how I am,
But actually it could be a place where it helps
you to recognize the areas that maybe you need to
improve in, or the areas that you need to adapt
and become more flexible in, rather than saying this is
just who I am when you come into the relationship,
(32:28):
I'm an avoidant, I'm an anxious attachment. Okay, well that's
just how we're going to be then in this relationship.
But to use that information to make the other person
feel more comfortable, but also to use that information to
make yourself aware of it so you can become better
with different scenarios within that relationship.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
And in therapy, these are not and people are surprised.
Sometimes these are not terms I would use with a client, right,
So if they use those terms, we'll explore it. But
I don't say, oh, you sound like you have an
anxious attached right. What I might say is it seems
like with this person and the last person, when somebody
(33:07):
starts to get close to you, you pull away. Let's
talk about why that happens, because it's really the behavior
or whatever any of these labels are. It's like, what
is the behavior we're working on. We're working on tolerating,
building your tolerance for closeness. Right, when someone likes you,
(33:28):
it's okay to like them back, like you're a super
cool person. Yeah, yeah, they should like you like it's
okay to like them back. You don't have to push
them away. So again, I think these things are great
for information, but using them as a limitation for ourselves
and for other people, it doesn't necessarily get us to
(33:49):
the space we want to be in. We can be
in a relationship with someone who's avoidant. You know, we
might have a family member who's like that. Maybe your
brother like never answers your text or something. And there's
ways to explore that, to say, like, hey, when I'm
texting you, I just want to know you're okay. So
even if you just text me like okay, I'm really
(34:11):
just checking in because you know, I want to make
sure you're okay and I need to know like little
bro is all right. Yeah, yeah, So send me something.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
You know.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
That's a conversation. It's not a let me text him.
You're avoiding my calls, right, you know those sorts of things,
like sometimes people aren't open to that because they have
this heavy label on them.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
So what is the behavior and what do you say
to people who or what advice would you give to
people who always feel like the expectations are not met
or the disappointed constantly in relationships or yeah, with interactions?
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, what are your expectations? That's really hard because I've
heard some Yeah, I think people should be able to
meet that, and I've heard some like that's a wild expectation.
So I think it really depends. And I think if
nobody ever ever can meet the expectation, that would make
me question if my expectation is reasonable? Right? Am I
(35:07):
communicating my expectation in a way that people can understand.
Is the relationship in a place where I can even
have that expectation. One of the things I talk about
in the book is sometimes our expectations don't fit the
relationship we are. We're calling someone our best friend, when
(35:28):
in actuality they're just a friend. They're not best We're
calling a friend a friend, and this person might be
an associate. What are your expectations of a neighbor? What
is your expectations of a coworker, What are your expectations
of an associate? What are your expectations of work? You know,
(35:49):
like having these different levels of interaction, it kind of
helps us not be disappointed. Yes, that is such a
good point.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
It made me think of Over summer, I ended up
having this interaction with a friend who wanted to make
who had asked me to be a bridesmaid in her wedding,
and I think I said yes because in my mind
I had never been a bridesmaid before, so I actually
didn't know what the expectations of being a bridesmaid for
a friend looked like. And for her, she had very
(36:19):
high expectations of what her bridesmaid would be doing for
her or how they would show up. And I think
there was such a lack of realization of how close
the friendship was or how close we each thought we
were to each other, and then the expectations that were
put on that one interaction of being my bridesmaid, me
saying yeah, of course I'll do it, not realizing the
(36:40):
weight that it held for her, and her not realizing
for me that I actually didn't think that it was
much of It was a big deal, but not that
much of a big deal. And so the lack of
awareness of our yeah, our expectations of one another really
ended up making the relationship so much worse because we
hadn't clarified those expectations and we put different weights to
(37:03):
each other. We'd held each other in high regards in
some areas where maybe we weren't supposed to.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
And so what you said really hit.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Me because I was like, yeah, I think our expectations
would just have the right expectations of the level that
you're at with each person, and that makes such a
difference to make all the terrifying relationships.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, I think with dating sometimes even in our family relationships,
I mean, we can't categorize them as like best sister
or association. Yes, but you know, I think just being
aware that all relationships aren't deeply connected. Some relationships are
just connection, right, and that's it. Like we you know,
(37:44):
we see each other on holidays and that's fine, and
everybody everything doesn't have to be close. And if the
expectation is that you will be disappointed.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yes, I think that's such a good point that I
needed to hear, and I'm sure many other people needed
to hear. I feel like a lot of the time
you expect when you have a friend that they're going
to meet every part of what you require a friendship
to be. They're going to fulfill that. It's like, I
really feel like this person's going to be my best friend.
And then as you grow up, you realize you just
have different people for different things, and each person holds
(38:17):
You can have a different type of expectation for each person,
but not all your expectations on one person. It's whether
it's a friend, whether it's a partner, whether it's your mom.
It's really difficult for that person to hold that weight
of all your expectations and for you to expect that
person to have that for you.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
And I think sometimes we have to, you know, in
align with what you're saying, we have to go to
the right person for the right thing. And you know,
if I'm having a work issue, I'm an entrepreneur, I
want to talk to my other entrepreneur friends. Yeah, I
don't want to talk to my corporate friends about it
because their situations in life are different. It's not that
(38:54):
I'm hiding information. It's just like, I think what we're
talking about is you need to having people who work
with you and these sources of things. So I want
to talk to a person who I know have had
similar experiences because I'm trying to work through mine. Yep.
So yeah, having different people in different ways is really
(39:15):
important because I've been in conversations with people where someone
is talking to you about a thing and it's like
I don't even know what to say. Yeah, yeah, I'm
not the right passion for this. This is I cannot
help you with your taxi. I don't even know how
we got here of Have you looked at AG and
R block, Yeah yeah it was. Yeah, I've been in
(39:39):
that situations for sure.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I'm like, it might not be the bright passion, but
I can direct you towards the right person.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah. Like legal issues, I've had people be like, man,
what do you think about this custody of I don't know,
like a two three two, I don't know. I don't
even know what the thing is like. Have you talked
to an attorney? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm not the person
to help with custody arrangements, So yeah, I think it's
(40:05):
in our interest sometimes to even redirect people when we
find that, whether it's they need a level of expertise
or they're fixated on a topic. Because sometimes you know,
we want to be available, we want our friends to
come to us in crisis. But if we notice, wow,
you've talked about the same thing in the same way
for six months, I don't feel like our conversations are
(40:29):
moving the needle. Have you thought about talking to maybe
a therapist, or have you mentioned this to your therapist
directing them to the right play. Yeah, because we don't
want to be the container for all that stuff. It
can become too heavy. Yeah, it could become too heavy,
And then that's when you start avoiding their cause you
don't want to be like, I am so tired of
hearing this thing. You don't want that.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
No. Yeah, you talk about isolation and solitude, and I
really loved the difference that you shed between the two
of you know, isolation being kind of avoiding things and
so being a place of power and strength. Would you
eleperate on a little bit and when and how you
can differentiate between the two.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, I feel like isolation is going inward, but in
a dark space. I think it's it's a dark space
of you going inWORD, not an act of joy, not
anything to rejuvenate, not to gain clarity, but just to
be away from yep. And we have to be careful
of that because when we see isolation, it intensifies loneliness.
(41:36):
It is you know a huge culprit of depression, of anxiety,
of other psychological issues. When you think about isolation, that's
what they use to punish people, right, sending them off
by themselves. Yep. And if you do that enough, you know,
people start talking to themselves and making up stories and
(41:57):
you know, all sorts of things. So it's a it
can be a punitive experience that we put on ourselves
versus solitude where we're exploring, we are recharging, we are
energetically connecting in another way without people, but we are
(42:17):
still welcome, welcoming them in some sort of fashion.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
That's such a beautiful way to differentiate the two. I
wanted to switch back to relationships a little bit because
you talk about the one in your book and how
people talk about the one. There's that one person that
you just fall in love with and that's the only
person that you're get in love for the rest of
your life. Give me your insight to that, because I
really appreciated that part of your book.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, when I hear about the one, sometimes it's a
person who is not the best for us. And I
see people struggling to make something work that is not
working because they have identified this person and as having
these special qualities, this connection that they've never had before.
(43:06):
There is some some deeper thing there, and I think
there are people that you can be compatible with. And
if you say that this person is the one, I
think you will do everything in your power to try
to make it work. Even if it's not working. It
could be a bad relationship and you're like, but this
(43:26):
is my person. They are not treating you like their person. Yep.
This is a one sided experience of you seeing something
special here and them not really reciprocating in that way.
I'm not saying the one doesn't exist. What I'm saying
is you have to question the experience of being with
(43:48):
the one. If this is an unhealthy interaction. Maybe this
was one of the ones. This is one of the ones,
be another one. You got your ones mixed up? Yeah,
you may need to keep counting to the ones because
(44:09):
this one is not working. And that's okay for us
to really want, you know, this, this thing with a person,
and it and not be the time. You know what
I say to people sometimes when they're like, this is
the one, Maybe it is, but not right now. There
are tons of people who come back together when they're
sixty five, yeah, and you're twenty two. Yeah, this might
(44:32):
be the one in retirement, but right now they're wreaking havoc.
They got to learn a lot of other stuff in
the world before they can even come be the one.
This may not be the time. Maybe they are. I
don't know. I don't know what the universe has for you.
But today this is the two, right, it's not the one.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
It's almost like you have to break down your own expectations. Yes,
there's one thing about having expectations that other people, but
when you've built up these expectations in your own mind,
you feel like you're disappointing yourself by not allowing, by
not by breaking that. It's it's breaking your expectations that
you had of that relationship, of the life that you
were going to have, of all the little ideas that
(45:15):
you've created.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
In your mind, and then you have to reframe all
of that.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Love can be blinding. Yeah, it can really be blinding,
and we can like lose our minds in some of
the things. Because when you talk to people after they're
out of relationships, it's like and I saw this, and
I saw that. Yeah, the clarity comes after I saw that.
It's it's it. It literally just like disrupts whatever our
(45:42):
natural flowy is. And we can really ignore a lot
of things that are not hidden. Yeah, so we have
to be aware of that that maybe there's something here
I'm not saying.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Okay, So now I was how we want a healthy, wonderful,
not codependent relationship. Looks like a healthy dependency in a relationship.
How can you notice that day to day? What does
it feel like for someone.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
On a day to day basis? It is give and take.
It is healthy communication with people. So that might look
like if someone texts you, you read the text or
you let them know, like, hey, you know, I saw
your text yesterday, couldn't get to it. But here's the answer.
You know, you're recognizing that people matter in your life.
(46:27):
You have several friends, and you have you know, maybe
some family and a partner, Like you have a robust system.
You are a villager. Not just in the village. You
are helping as well. And I think communication skills matter.
There are so many relationships that end because we did
(46:48):
not communicate properly. I was speaking with someone earlier about
getting invice and just not responding to them. How often
that ends relationships when you could just communicate, Hey, I
see the date, I won't be available, so true, Like
that's it. Did you lose a friend because you never
said anything or you said you would go and you
(47:10):
didn't show up? Like that feels a way to people.
So just saying like hey, I'm not going to be
able to make it. I know it's the last minute,
something came up, I have a stomach bug or whatever
it is. You know, letting people know that things have
shifted so that open communication is healthy dependency in your
relationships and it's important. It makes all the difference.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yeah, and it sounds so simple, and yet we make
it more complicated by not doing it.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
People don't do it.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
No, Yeah, And what about doing conflict? So you know,
obviously every relationship we're gonna have some sort of conflict.
What is a healthy way to if you're trying to
improve the way that you deal with conflict in a relationship.
What are some steps people can take if it gets
too heated, usually with arguments, and how can they reframe
that and reconnect in a way that makes conflicts a
(48:00):
little bit easier to manage?
Speaker 1 (48:02):
So what I think about what is an argument? Sometimes
we think if somebody doesn't agree with me, I'm having
an argument. Well, you're having a conversation. Is a voice elevated?
Is there, you know, some sort of rude back and
forth or is it just a conversation about a thing
you disagree about? So I think if we could reframe
(48:22):
the way we think about conflict and arguing, we can
have it more. And one of the things, if we
could talk about things sooner and not let them faster,
we don't even have to get to the arguments. If
we could say the first or second time of something happening. Hey,
(48:43):
you know, the other day I noticed this thing and
just have a conversation about that. With our calm voice,
we can prevent a lot of the conflict. And conflict
is healthy for relationships. It's how we get to know people.
It's how we start to understand how they operate, how
they think, what we need, things we need to work
(49:04):
on when we get upset, because sometimes we don't know
until we're in conflict. So a conflict free relationship isn't
healthy because that means you don't talk about anything. Yeah,
so some conflict is good. That's good for the relationship.
I was saying a couple once and one of the
(49:26):
folks said, gosh, you must get tired of us. Every
week we come here and we argue about something. And
I said, you always talk about something different though you're
not arguing about the same thing. You're a couple who
just moved in together, so a lot of this stuff
is like you learning how to live together. If you
argued about the same thing every week, I would be concerned.
(49:50):
This is an ongoing argument. I'm not concerned because it
seems like we talk about it, you work through it,
and something else comes up. This is a new situation
that's going to have in for a few weeks. That's
why they say the first year of marriage is the
hardest because you're living with the person and you're discovering
they do not put a cap on their toothpaste.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
What I did disciple that person lives like this, right,
And so you're discovering all these They just take their
socks off, they just put them on the floor.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Who does that?
Speaker 2 (50:21):
You know?
Speaker 1 (50:21):
And so every week it's something different, this person who
was just like so perfect. It's like and they leave
hair in the sink, you know, it's it's it's on
and on and on. But you're learning how to live
with a person. Okay, I'm living with someone else. Let
me get my hair out the sink, let me throw
my socks in the basket. Or maybe your partner says,
I'm not even gonna talk about this. I'm gonna just
(50:42):
pick them up and throw them in a basket. Yeah,
you're figuring things out. That's conflict and that's actually healthy.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
What do you think is the main message you want
people to really take away from your book? If there's
one thing that you want them to take away to
enhunt their life in some way, what do you feel
like that would be.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
Being with other peop people is important, and we have
to figure out a way to hold our boundaries to
being being healing mode to work on ourselves while working
with other people and their stuff. And I'm not talking
about toxic stuff. I don't want. I don't want people
(51:20):
to say, oh yeah, accept abuse. No, I'm not talking
about abuse, neglect and those sorts of things. I'm talking
about somebody being routine annoying in a relationship. Relationships should
annoy us. Sometimes they should cause us to have, you know,
a moment where it's inconvenient. Things happen for people and
(51:44):
things happen for us, and so just having the flexibility
around being in relationships is important right now. Thank you.
That's so wonderful, Nata, thank you so much for coming on.
This is such a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
I think it's going to hopefully help so many people
reconnect and create deeper, more meaningful relationships. Everybody, go out
there and grab the balancing act creating healthy dependency and
connection without losing yourself. Another best selling book, I'm sure
from Nedra.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Thank you again. Thanks so wonderful.
Host
Radhi Devlukia
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